Where in NE??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I cranked up my winter running group and 5 showed. The numbers grow after Xmas. What a wonderful run – 10 hilly miles in 20 degrees, sun out, a light dusting of snow from the night before, a little wind, great conversation and the final reward, breakfast. It baffles me when people stay inside in these conditions and run on treadmill. God will get you for not enjoying days like this.
Where in NE???
NY, near the first cpital of the state Kingston.. — Doug Freese "Caveat Lector"
NY, near the first cpital of the state Kingston..
The "Gay capitol" of NY.
"friggen snow", that’s all i got to say. cancelled my 10K race this morning in nyc’s central park, second cancelled race in a row due to snow. donovan and i happend to be chatting at the start 10 minutes before the schedule start, as it was snowing….and over the PA system we were informed the race/chipped timing, etc…all cancelled and event turned into a non-competitive fun run.
Was the chip timing cancelled because the race was cancelled, and was the race cancelled due to "safety reasons"? ("We don
In case anyone was wondering – the last word in my original "Help with Hill climbing.." post should have been "downturn" not "downtown". Serves me right for trying to be coherent after midnight.
Olivier, you’re forgetting Embrun… ;-) Nicolas.
Hi Nico, Great fun to have an english post between 2 french guys, separated by only a few kilometers 
No, I did not forget Embrun. There is not an average 15% grade on more than 1 km (I do not forget Palon, of course), even in the col d’Izoard. Just note that the small chainring is a 39 for a 650 setup!! I know that Cordier has a 39/25, but with 700 wheels. Even if you are not able to push very hard, something like 36-37/26 should be enough to "climb to the trees" for a reasonably trained person (And I can’t figure out how an Ironman athlete cannot be reasonnably trained). Olivier Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
No, I did not forget Embrun. There is not an average 15% grade on more than 1 km (I do not forget Palon, of course), even in the col d’Izoard. Just note that the small chainring is a 39 for a 650 setup!! I know that Cordier has a 39/25, but with 700 wheels. Even if you are not able to push very hard, something like 36-37/26 should be enough to "climb to the trees" for a reasonably trained person (And I can’t figure out how an Ironman athlete cannot be reasonnably trained).
The Palon wall (Yes, I think we can call it a wall) seemed to me much longer than 1km and much steeper than 16%…. Maybe it just because I went soooo slooooow. But you’re right, 39×26 was enough for me (with 700 wheels). Nicolas.
I have 39/26 as my lowest combination (650 wheels) – should that be sufficient? Get a triple. With the 650 wheels, 39/26 should be much enough (it is around 36/37 for 700 wheels) to spin in almost every type of climb, except 15%, but I do not really see which organizer would define a bike section with a such a LONG climb.
Olivier, you’re forgetting Embrun… ;-) Nicolas.
<good stuff I’ll second Rick’s advice that your only real solution at this point is gearing. You don’t have time to improve significantly and you already know your gears are too big, else you wouldn’t have had to walk. A triple crank sounds like a good idea. You need to have a granny gear that you can spin away and crawl up the hills without beating your legs up. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??
I’m certainly no expert, but I can tell you that if you are like me (a sorry hillclimber), you can dramatically improve your abilities in a few weeks. I went to Kauai earlier this year to visit mom and dad (), and since in Florida the closest thing to a hill is a tall bridge, I was scared to death of the hills in Kauai. I thought that the way to do a hill is to begin in a tall gear, and as I tire and slow, shift down one gear to keep the same cadence. This works on little bridges, but isn’t worth a flip on long hills. I learned real quick to gear way down at the start and just go slow and steady. The first ride dad took me on was about 25 miles with several short hills, and a good one at the end. I thought I would die. In two weeks time, we did an 80 miler with 6500 ft of hills. Of course dad would get way ahead of me, but he would just turn around and climb again to give me time and embarrass me. If you arent already beginning the hills in a low gear, try it. If you are already doing this, consider the triple. But dont believe you cant improve in 6 weeks. Rich "dad kicks my butt on the bike and run, but I got him on the swim part" DaVico * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
I have 39/26 as my lowest combination (650 wheels) – should that be sufficient? Get a triple.
With the 650 wheels, 39/26 should be much enough (it is around 36/37 for 700 wheels) to spin in almost every type of climb, except 15%, but I do not really see which organizer would define a bike section with a such a LONG climb. Is there any other advice you can offer for improving my hill technique enough to possibly make it through the race? Although vast improvements are unlikely at this point, you may get some benefit by really hammering some hills over the next three weeks.
Yes. Climbing and climbing will help you better climb during a race. What you can also do is the combination of spinning and power rides: One day in the week, climb and ride with the large chainring (because the 39 with your current bike set up will not be enough), the duration depends can be from 1 hour to 2 hours (after warm up). It will be hard, but you will gain power. (Do not forget to stretch) Another day, plan a very high spinning session, with a climb. Try to get the "smoother" pedaling (what we call "tourner rond" in french) to be efficient. Plan another ride near your competition level and a last one for recovery and fun (spinning). If you feel you can do more, add a spinning session, with some intervals in a climb. This should help. Olivier Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
With less than 6 weeks before the race, I realize that major physical improvement is unlikely. What I am looking for here is advice from the veteran cyclists of the group about techniques for handling long and/or steep hills. When do you want to spin up hills, and when do you want to stand for climbing?
In general, spin. Stand occasionally is you want a different position for a short time or to stretch your legs, but in general, spin. I have 39/26 as my lowest combination (650 wheels) – should that be sufficient?
Get a triple. Is there any other advice you can offer for improving my hill technique enough to possibly make it through the race?
Although vast improvements are unlikely at this point, you may get some benefit by really hammering some hills over the next three weeks. Right now I’m all right physically after Saturday’s ride – but the confidence factor has taken a major downtown.
Don’t worry about it. You now know what you’re faced with. Nice and easy and you’ll be fine. — Cheers, Doug "Rick, Rolf and Ken are wise men" Fuller IMLP-99, 12:40 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Hi, With only 6 weeks to go till the race you want to be careful that you don’t push too hard on the hills in training or you’ll pay for it by being fatigued on race day. If it was me I would do 2 quality hill rides a week for the next 3 weeks. Try and find hills around your home area that simulate the type of terrain you’re going to encounter in the race. If the area where you live is flat you can try turning a big gear on the flat but DON’T do this if you haven’t done it before. That type of training is effective but also its easy to get injuries from. Six weeks isn’t really a lot of time to improve hill climbing. Just try and get out for a few good quality hill rides in the next 3 weeks and try not to worry about the race. Take this one as a learning experience and don’t worry if you don’t perform as well as you were hoping. There will always be other races……but not if you burn yourself out now. Good luck…. Corran ps – the gear you’re riding should be adequate but if you’re still finding it hard to push maybe consider sticking a 28 (or bigger) on the back. Ideally you will want to spin up the hills because you will burn less energy that way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At least you didn’t find out about this AT THE RACE. It could be worse. Just by previewing the course, you’ll be better able to endure during the race. The worst thing is not knowing what is around the corner and thinking that every hill HAS TO BE your last. You’ll be slower on the course, but you’ll make it. Maybe you should do another IM distance race that has a course more suited to your ability after this race to give you something to look forward to. Best of luck. I’m entered in my first Ironman distance race in less than 6 weeks – Pineman on 9/25. I rode the bike course Saturday and found that my home area training has been seriously inadequate – this course is relentlessly hilly, with longer and steeper hills than I had ever tried to ride before. I found myself getting off to walk the uphills on numerous occasions, and realized that I will have to do much better during the race next month to make the bike cutoff. With less than 6 weeks before the race, I realize that major physical improvement is unlikely. What I am looking for here is advice from the veteran cyclists of the group about techniques for handling long and/or steep hills. When do you want to spin up hills, and when do you want to stand for climbing? I have 39/26 as my lowest combination (650 wheels) – should that be sufficient? Is there any other advice you can offer for improving my hill technique enough to possibly make it through the race? Right now I’m all right physically after Saturday’s ride – but the confidence factor has taken a major downtown. Thanks Bob Leckron 45-49 (as of next week) Indianapolis, IN Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Don’t look at hills as a problem, look at them as just a slower part of the course. The best way to become a better climber is to locate a short hill, 1/4 to 1/2 mile long with a grade of about 10%. Start by doing the hill 6 times in a relatively easy gear. Time each climb and record it. Start you climb at a comfortable level, say 70% MHR, and go the distance to warm up. On the next repeat start the same way but increase your effort level to about 85% during the last 100 meters. Your third climb should be an all out effort from start to finish. Fourth repeat a copy of the first at 70%. fifth will be a fast start in a hard gear and maintain a 87% HR by gearing down as you tire. Last climb will be another all out effort from bottom to top followed by a cool down ride of several miles. Do this once a week when you are rested. It is important to be able to give your all to the max effort climbs. You will be surprised at how fast this will improve your strength in all aspects of cycling but don’t neglect your long overdistance rides. They are the most important part of your training. + record) , IMH97 (1st in AG), PowerMan Hawaii 98 (1st in AG + record) , Gulf Coast Half IM 98 (1st in AG) , 1998 IMH (3rd in Age Group) http://www.ironmantri.com/davico.html
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m entered in my first Ironman distance race in less than 6 weeks – Pineman on 9/25. I rode the bike course Saturday and found that my home area training has been seriously inadequate – this course is relentlessly hilly, with longer and steeper hills than I had ever tried to ride before. I found myself getting off to walk the uphills on numerous occasions, and realized that I will have to do much better during the race next month to make the bike cutoff. With less than 6 weeks before the race, I realize that major physical improvement is unlikely. What I am looking for here is advice from the veteran cyclists of the group about techniques for handling long and/or steep hills. When do you want to spin up hills, and when do you want to stand for climbing? I have 39/26 as my lowest combination (650 wheels) – should that be sufficient? Is there any other advice you can offer for improving my hill technique enough to possibly make it through the race? Right now I’m all right physically after Saturday’s ride – but the confidence factor has taken a major downtown. Thanks Bob Leckron 45-49 (as of next week) Indianapolis, IN
<great advice for gearing OPINION – I believe that many triathletes ride gearing that is too big for their britches. I ride a 39/53 12×28 8 speed on my Trek (700c), and a 42/53 12×27 9 speed on my Kestrel (650c). I have had many people laugh when I quote these numbers. No one was laughing when I spun up the hills from Wilmington to Lake Placid in the last 12 miles of Ironman Lake Placid though I felt great going up. A Softride rider blasted past me on the flats, and I passed him back on the climb to Wilmington. He watched me spin by as he struggled out of the saddle, commenting, "Man, you’ve got the right gears." My bike time was reasonable (6:14) despite about 10 minutes of stop time to fix a saddle bugaboo, and I managed to put together a decent run (4:21) on that course. I was out of the saddle just a few times throughout the 112 miles, mostly to stretch the legs. Listen to Rick — he knoweth what he says. -Rolf "27s and 28s rule" A. — This space for rent IMC’94-14:07 IMC’95-11:59 IMC’97-12:12 IMC’98-14:02 IMNZ99-11:52 IMLP99-11:59
couple more things, by your third week of doing these hill repeats increase the number to 10 if possible. After the second week do your 4th and 7th repeat out of the saddle from bottom to top. This will build your strength, your long overdistance training will build endurance. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t look at hills as a problem, look at them as just a slower part of the course. The best way to become a better climber is to locate a short hill, 1/4 to 1/2 mile long with a grade of about 10%. Start by doing the hill 6 times in a relatively easy gear. Time each climb and record it. Start you climb at a comfortable level, say 70% MHR, and go the distance to warm up. On the next repeat start the same way but increase your effort level to about 85% during the last 100 meters. Your third climb should be an all out effort from start to finish. Fourth repeat a copy of the first at 70%. fifth will be a fast start in a hard gear and maintain a 87% HR by gearing down as you tire. Last climb will be another all out effort from bottom to top followed by a cool down ride of several miles. Do this once a week when you are rested. It is important to be able to give your all to the max effort climbs. You will be surprised at how fast this will improve your strength in all aspects of cycling but don’t neglect your long overdistance rides. They are the most important part of your training. AG + record) , IMH97 (1st in AG), PowerMan Hawaii 98 (1st in AG + record) , Gulf Coast Half IM 98 (1st in AG) , 1998 IMH (3rd in Age Group) http://www.ironmantri.com/davico.html I’m entered in my first Ironman distance race in less than 6 weeks – Pineman on 9/25. I rode the bike course Saturday and found that my home area training has been seriously inadequate – this course is relentlessly hilly, with longer and steeper hills than I had ever tried to ride before. I found myself getting off to walk the uphills on numerous occasions, and realized that I will have to do much better during the race next month to make the bike cutoff. With less than 6 weeks before the race, I realize that major physical improvement is unlikely. What I am looking for here is advice from the veteran cyclists of the group about techniques for handling long and/or steep hills. When do you want to spin up hills, and when do you want to stand for climbing? I have 39/26 as my lowest combination (650 wheels) – should that be sufficient? Is there any other advice you can offer for improving my hill technique enough to possibly make it through the race? Right now I’m all right physically after Saturday’s ride – but the confidence factor has taken a major downtown. Thanks Bob Leckron 45-49 (as of next week) Indianapolis, IN
At least you didn’t find out about this AT THE RACE. It could be worse. Just by previewing the course, you’ll be better able to endure during the race. The worst thing is not knowing what is around the corner and thinking that every hill HAS TO BE your last. You’ll be slower on the course, but you’ll make it. Maybe you should do another IM distance race that has a course more suited to your ability after this race to give you something to look forward to. Best of luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m entered in my first Ironman distance race in less than 6 weeks – Pineman on 9/25. I rode the bike course Saturday and found that my home area training has been seriously inadequate – this course is relentlessly hilly, with longer and steeper hills than I had ever tried to ride before. I found myself getting off to walk the uphills on numerous occasions, and realized that I will have to do much better during the race next month to make the bike cutoff. With less than 6 weeks before the race, I realize that major physical improvement is unlikely. What I am looking for here is advice from the veteran cyclists of the group about techniques for handling long and/or steep hills. When do you want to spin up hills, and when do you want to stand for climbing? I have 39/26 as my lowest combination (650 wheels) – should that be sufficient? Is there any other advice you can offer for improving my hill technique enough to possibly make it through the race? Right now I’m all right physically after Saturday’s ride – but the confidence factor has taken a major downtown. Thanks Bob Leckron 45-49 (as of next week) Indianapolis, IN
Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
I’m entered in my first Ironman distance race in less than 6 weeks – Pineman on 9/25. I rode the bike course Saturday and found that my home area training has been seriously inadequate – this course is relentlessly hilly, with longer and steeper hills than I had ever tried to ride before. I found myself getting off to walk the uphills on numerous occasions, and realized that I will have to do much better during the race next month to make the bike cutoff. With less than 6 weeks before the race, I realize that major physical improvement is unlikely. What I am looking for here is advice from the veteran cyclists of the group about techniques for handling long and/or steep hills. When do you want to spin up hills, and when do you want to stand for climbing?
The whole point of Ironman (sez me, entirely theoretically!), is to manage resources. In a bike race, you might attack a hill out of the saddle to make your competitors suffer if you think you’re stronger. But in a triathlon, you choose a work level that you can maintain for the distance. I would want to avoid standing on the pedals at all, if possible. I have 39/26 as my lowest combination (650 wheels) – should that be sufficient?
If you had to walk the hills, then I would say it is not enough. Get thee a triple. Is there any other advice you can offer for improving my hill technique enough to possibly make it through the race?
Get thee a triple. You have not enough time to turn yourself into a hill climber if you aren’t one already. Don’t feel badly about this–if I even to Lake Placid, I will do it with a triple. I don’t want to fill my legs with lactic acid when I still have to go 26 miles afoot. I can hammer on the flats, but some of us just don’t have hill-climber in our genes. Right now I’m all right physically after Saturday’s ride – but the confidence factor has taken a major downtown.
Get it back by installing a triple front. Then you can mosy up the hills spinning in a granny gear. It’s slower than a 39-26, but you’ll make up the time later. In any case, a granny gear is faster than walking. A buddy of mine (and former RST lurker) did the bike leg of Wildflower in a relay. He maintained, comfortably, a 20 mph pace until The Hill At Mile 42. So he didn’t suck as a cyclist. But he completely blew up on the hill, and had to stop, rest, and walk. Then he had to endure the post-bonk remaining very non-trivial 12 miles. The next year, he and I rode the course two months before the race. I climbed the hill on a 42-26, in crawl mode. Again, the remaining 12 miles were miserable. In the race that year, he rode the relay again, and this time rode a triple. He sat and spinned easily going up the hill. People passed him. Some of those people he saw again. But he beat his previous time by over 20 minutes. Rick "I now have a Campy Racing Triple held in reserve just for these occasions" Denney
I’m entered in my first Ironman distance race in less than 6 weeks – Pineman on 9/25. I rode the bike course Saturday and found that my home area training has been seriously inadequate – this course is relentlessly hilly, with longer and steeper hills than I had ever tried to ride before. I found myself getting off to walk the uphills on numerous occasions, and realized that I will have to do much better during the race next month to make the bike cutoff. With less than 6 weeks before the race, I realize that major physical improvement is unlikely. What I am looking for here is advice from the veteran cyclists of the group about techniques for handling long and/or steep hills. When do you want to spin up hills, and when do you want to stand for climbing? I have 39/26 as my lowest combination (650 wheels) – should that be sufficient? Is there any other advice you can offer for improving my hill technique enough to possibly make it through the race? Right now I’m all right physically after Saturday’s ride – but the confidence factor has taken a major downtown. Thanks Bob Leckron 45-49 (as of next week) Indianapolis, IN
Actually Scott, you have NOT confused me. Very useful suggestion. As a fairly new runner, I am always on the lookout for these types of insights. Thanks Dianne and others following this thread- I have to chime in here because I have changed my running form this last year after working with Dr. Nikolas Romanov at the USAT Coaching school last summer and it has helped a lot (faster times, less injuries). He has a video out called the
POSE … … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -short distances at first will help. Hopefully I havn’t confused you more. -Scott USAT Level I coach http://www.enduranet.com
Scott and others, This has truly been one of those golden threads which comes along every so often. As I said repeatedly, my intention is to remain green and growing rather than rip and rotting. So with that, my base of knowledge continues to grow with such great shared perspectives and also such intense questioning of the answers given. As said earlier: It’s not what you know that gets you in trouble. It’s what you know that just ain’t so. Remember this started with a thread on breath. The first few paragraphs read: Next to proper running form and style and an integral part of proper running is breathing and the rhythms of breath. Once good running form is achieved one can keep the same cadence and be running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes a mile faster. The issue is getting the leg through its cycle to touch the ground maintaining the same cadence. This is where the concept of running is falling and catching oneself gracefully (come in). To that end, breathing becomes the next important factor in maintaining an oxygen uptake to support the increased speed while maintaining the same cadence turnover. Regarding breathing, as one gets faster, one needs to maintain the calmness of mind when one is efforting less. That is where the stuff on breathing comes in. The idea is that I can get more cycles of air in the same alloted time so that I can maintain my aerobic state longer and put off the anaerobic threshold or not cross it for extended periods of time. Scott’s point of faster running having a "smaller range of motion" is a point that is well taken. If you want to see the article which got a lot of people thinking about optimal range of motion in runners, check out the conference annals which Paul Milvy edited in 1976. The research article is by Peter Cavanagh, Michael Pollock (r.i.p.), Jean Landa pp. 328-345 "A Biomechanical Comparison of Elite and Good Distance Runners" in "The Marathon: Physiological, Medical, Epidemiological, and Psychological Studies," Annals of The New York Academy of Sciences, Volume 301, 1977. Stride length and different stride angles of the elite. Stride Stride Rate Swing Flight Support Length (steps/ Time Time Time (meters) min) (msec) (msec) (msec) Elite 1.56 191.0 431 120 205 n=14 Good 1.65 182.0 458 130 201 n=8 While none of the data was significant at the .05 level, as one might guess when comparing two group so close together, the little differences were interesting in terms of "Now what does that mean, if anything?" Also while none of the differences in knee flexion in swing and hip flexion in swing were significant it’s interesting that the knee flexion of elite runners was 3 degrees less than good runners, and hip flexion was 2 degrees less than good runners. In the summary and discussion: "The basic question still remains: Is efficient running a function of good style, a function of subcellular biochemistry, or some weighting of both, and what other factors are important? It is unfortunately not possible to give a definitive answer for this study. However, the lack of major significant differences in the biomechanical variables between the two groups leads one to believe that both the good and elite groups of athetes contain a similar range of running styles. The possiblity must therefore be propsoed that some of the elite runners have form or style that is worse than runners classified as good in the present study The technique of multiple regression analysis appears to be promising for the identification of which of the may variables studied in all aspects of this present multidisciplinary project are important for efficient running." pp 342-343 The Next Step Most people just swing their arms while running. But if you put a ski pole in their hands you’d begin to notice that the arm never swings behind the body. If you ask a runner standing in place to swing their elbows/ arms as if they were running, you will see them swing their elbows in front of their torso and then behind their torso. Like a swimmers hand in the water, like an oar of the sculler, like the pole of a cross country skier, the reality is that the swimmer’s hand, the sculler’s oar, the skier’s planted pole tip…they all stay relatively stationary. The swimmer’s body goes in front of the stationary hand, the sculler’s boat passes in front of the relatively stationary oar, the skier’s body goes in front of the stationary planted pole. So my perception is that the body is going in front of the the runner’s elbow as the body is being catapulted forward with each step. If you want an exercise to play with: Put your elbows shoulder high in front of you, with the arms pointing straight up. Run in this style with the idea that as your left knee raises, your right hand grabs an imaginary rung 3" or 4" above that hand…and immediately the next step, switch and grab the next run with the other hand. Keep this up for 50 or so steps and continue imagining the same thing happening that the hand grabs the rung, but slowly allow the elbows to lower until you are in your normal running arm position. So as Scott said about the faster one runs the smaller the range of motion. Apply that to the image to your arms/elbows. Although we became upright sometime ago, we are still a four footed animal. And the ski poles as extended arms get you back in touch with us as four footed. Something Else To Grab Onto Regarding the position of the hand, light fist, fingers pointed down, thumb resting on top of the pointer finger, (use of the tool which fits in the hand and allows on to rest the thumb straight ahead – guaranteed to give proper alignment of the arm), I have gone full circle and ended up with my hands open and straight but relaxed straight. If you do Tai Chi, it’s called Fair Maiden’s Hand. If you picture Carl Lewis’ hands you get the idea. So what do you think about the body as a system? That everything plays a part. And to get to natural is an interesting journey of practice and play from what a beginning runner, swimmer, biker perceives natural to be. And what so many people swear that just do what comes natural. So if you’re doing something wrong (read: unnaturally) and you think it right and natural, you won’t change or see the difference because there’s nothing to compare it to. So if Scott as a Level I USAT coach learned something last year, maybe there’s something to lifelong learning. As St George said: "We’re called to be poet, artists, philosophers, heroes, saints and athletes. So in that, be good animals."
I have to chime in here because I have changed my running form this last year after working with Dr. Nikolas Romanov at the USAT Coaching school last summer and it has helped a lot (faster times, less injuries). He has a video out called the POSE method of running which sounds very similar to what Ozzie is saying here. The video is available through Road Runner Sports catalog. I haven’t actually watched the video but didn’t think I needed it after working with the man. The main thing that I try to remember is to eliminate deceleration by not letting your toes go in front of your knees. If you extend your leg right before the plant, you will land on your heel and "stop" yourself. Just "drop" your foot underneath you as you fall forward (Dr. Romanov calls this "changing support") as Ozzie stated. Try to land mid foot though (on the ball of your foot, not your toes). What may be a little different though than what you noticed at the lunch time run is the recovery phase of the leg as it leaves the ground. Actually, you don’t want to overdo this part and that is a typical mistake. You should run as if running on hot coals. As soon as your foot hits and you have changed support and are falling forward still, get your foot off the ground by lifting it straight up under you (not kicking your own butt). Actually you should not have a big "heel kick" but a smaller range of motion. The range of motion for 8 or greater minute miles should actually be very small. The video probably explains it better. The thing about this form is that it takes strong lower leg muscles. Jumping rope and trying this new form for short distances at first will help. Hopefully I havn’t confused you more. -Scott USAT Level I coach http://www.enduranet.com — In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer – rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com
Despite my extreme reluctance to dispute anything Andy says, Why be reluctant, Rick? I don’t think I’m *that* nasty when I debate w/ people!
I wasn’t afraid of nastiness. I can deal with that easily. I was afraid of looking stupid. And that fear has not waned. In my own case, I trained myself many years ago to spin at a higher rate on the bicycle, and to maintain as closely as possible that cadence over all terrain, using the gears to adjust the effort. I can actually twist this around to support my argument…the reason why we all have to train ourselves to spin at a higher rate on the bicycle is because it is NOT efficient to do so (even though it may be optimal). IOW, we have to fight our natural tendency to pedal at slower, more efficient rpm’s…
Your distinction between optimal and efficient is an important one, and one that I had not considered. Ilike it. I will think about it during my next few workouts, and see what my body says. That translates very nicely to the notion of maintaining an even cadence while running, and adjusting the stride length to match the terrain. Not really, because on a bicycle you can’t really change the range of motion over which the muscles function – in essence, stride length is fixed at twice the crank length. This is, in fact, one thing that makes studying muscle/exercise physiology using cycling as a model somewhat unique, as during prolonged exercise you are forced to recruit the same motor units over and over and over and over and over…talk about an "unnatural" exercise!
This isn’t exactly true, unless you are trying to stay aero on a Hooker, heh, heh. Most riders change positions frequently on the bicycle to modify the muscle groups, even if only slightly. But I get your point. Even so, climbing a hill out of the saddle is a completely different exercise than time-trialing on the flats. But experienced cyclists will try as hard as possible to do both at a consistent cadence. I wonder why? Maybe they are wrong. But I still had to learn how to do it. My running economy has greatly improved (from deplorable to poor) by learning how to maintain a slightly higher cadence. No offense, but I have to ask – how do you know your running economy has greatly improved? Have you measured your VO2 at various running speeds? If not, you can’t say that your economy has changed – for all you know, you’ve made it worse, in which case you’ve proved my point…
I determine this in terms of performance. Even now, after a winter of laziness, I can go run five miles (like I did last night) at a pace that would have been near race pace two years ago. Am I better trained now than then? I don’t think so. My heart rate is lower at the same running pace, but my cycling performance has remained relatively unchanged. My body tells me that I’m not very fit right now, but I can run comfortably at a pace that would have been a strain two or three years ago. What has my body learned in that time? Economy seems the only consistent explanation. I’ve had similar gains in swimming that can solely be attributed to better technique and greater economy. But there’s another consideration, too. Many people run with a long, loping stride. That’s what they naturally run–that’s what their bodies tell them to do. But when they run with me, their bodies go up and down a lot compared to mine. I find that even though I’m as tall, I’m taking shorter, more frequent steps. I already pound the pavement–I’d be scared to death to hit the pavement as hard as they do. This may be an optimal vs efficient question. I’m quite sure, though, in reviewing my own experience, that taking shorter, more frequent strides was a breakthrough for me, especially on hills. But I recognize that I may have been relaxing from an unnatural running style into one that’s more natural–not the other way around. Horses are born to run, and do so continuously in their lives. Some of us had long periods in which we did no useful exercise. Could we not have forgotten what we need to know in that time? You give more credit to stiff, unfit bodies than I do. Rick "Unusually empirical in this discussion" Denney
Excellent posts, Scott and Oz. Thanks for sharing. — Tom NYC Marathon 2000 trainee <snippity do da
Dianne and others following this thread- I have to chime in here because I have changed my running form this last year after working with Dr. Nikolas Romanov at the USAT Coaching school last summer and it has helped a lot (faster times, less injuries). He has a video out called the POSE method of running which sounds very similar to what Ozzie is saying here. The video is available through Road Runner Sports catalog. I haven’t actually watched the video but didn’t think I needed it after working with the man. The main thing that I try to remember is to eliminate deceleration by not letting your toes go in front of your knees. If you extend your leg right before the plant, you will land on your heel and "stop" yourself. Just "drop" your foot underneath you as you fall forward (Dr. Romanov calls this "changing support") as Ozzie stated. Try to land mid foot though (on the ball of your foot, not your toes). What may be a little different though than what you noticed at the lunch time run is the recovery phase of the leg as it leaves the ground. Actually, you don’t want to overdo this part and that is a typical mistake. You should run as if running on hot coals. As soon as your foot hits and you have changed support and are falling forward still, get your foot off the ground by lifting it straight up under you (not kicking your own butt). Actually you should not have a big "heel kick" but a smaller range of motion. The range of motion for 8 or greater minute miles should actually be very small. The video probably explains it better. The thing about this form is that it takes strong lower leg muscles. Jumping rope and trying this new form for short distances at first will help. Hopefully I havn’t confused you more. -Scott USAT Level I coach http://www.enduranet.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ozzie Gontang wrote a bunch of interesting stuff about s/m, leaning (falling), and running faster, including: | | / | / | |/ | | | /| | / | | / | | / | | / | | / | |_ /_ |_ A B C If you don’t learn to pick up your knees and imagine yourself in toe clips on a bicycle, then you’re doomed to overstriding and stopping yourself with each and every step as you hit on the back of the heel of the shoe and decelerate at every step…jarring your knees and hips and beating the hell out of your ankles. But what the hay, you’re getting an aerobic workout until the injuries and muscle tension and problems make you stop. I had to repost the illustration, for those not following the discussion, it does not pertain to the paragraph. Oz, I’m busted! You’re right; I’m a shuffler. I took this discussion with me to a great runners’ clinic yesterday: lunch on the Mall between the Capital and the Washington Monument, where one can watch (or join) hundreds of government workers out for their daily run. I sat, watched, counted others’ s/m, and tried to discern form of the faster runners. What struck me was not their knee lift going into footfall but their kick behind to finish a stride. Your description of my current way of running is on target. Aches, jarring, unhappy joints. I’ll put in some miles this weekend with the recommended bicycle toe-clip stride. Eight-minute miles? Wouldn’ THAT be wonderful. Thanks Ozzie. Dianne
Ozzie Gontang wrote a bunch of interesting stuff about s/m, leaning (falling), and running faster, including: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | / | / | |/ | | | /| | / | | / | | / | | / | | / | |_ /_ |_ A B C If you don’t learn to pick up your knees and imagine yourself in toe clips on a bicycle, then you’re doomed to overstriding and stopping yourself with each and every step as you hit on the back of the heel of the shoe and decelerate at every step…jarring your knees and hips and beating the hell out of your ankles. But what the hay, you’re getting an aerobic workout until the injuries and muscle tension and problems make you stop.
I had to repost the illustration, for those not following the discussion, it does not pertain to the paragraph. Oz, I’m busted! You’re right; I’m a shuffler. I took this discussion with me to a great runners’ clinic yesterday: lunch on the Mall between the Capital and the Washington Monument, where one can watch (or join) hundreds of government workers out for their daily run. I sat, watched, counted others’ s/m, and tried to discern form of the faster runners. What struck me was not their knee lift going into footfall but their kick behind to finish a stride. Your description of my current way of running is on target. Aches, jarring, unhappy joints. I’ll put in some miles this weekend with the recommended bicycle toe-clip stride. Eight-minute miles? Wouldn’ THAT be wonderful. Thanks Ozzie. Dianne
I think you’re missing the thrust of the GAPO idea presented here.
I repeat – what’s GAPO? It’s not that to run fast you should not increase your cadence; it’s that it seems that the best cadence appears to be about 180 steps/min.
Only if you happen to have a certain leg length and run at a certain speed…to otherwise pick this stride rate (let’s use the right term – cadence is for cycling) will mean overriding the natural tendency to run at the most economical stride rate and length for that velocity. Many (in fact most of the ones I see) runners run at a cadence slower than 180, so what is suggested will result in a shorter stride for many.
And again I say, this is a mistake – only about 10% of all runners are habitual overstriders, and can benefit energetically and thus physiologically from shortening their stride. Run long, run short, run fast, run slow, but just run…there’s no need to try to override the respiratory control systems that have been evolving for eons and eons. I know how you feel here. I used to think this way too, and am a very skeptical person. However, I also try to keep an open mind and perform the experiment myself, if possible. When I shortened my stride and therefore increased my cadence to maintain the same pace, I found that I was much more efficient with the shorter stride.
And how did you determine that you became more efficient? As I said to Chuck Hull, unless you have ready access to a treadmill and a metabolic cart you have no waying of knowing if this is true – for all you know, your O2 cost of running is now higher than it was before. I’m willing to accept that you became more comfortable, felt "smoother", seemed to have less injuries, even that it seemed to help your racing performance – but please don’t tell me you became more efficient unless you actually measured your running economy/efficiency. A much more significant piece of data is the well-documented observation that elite runners have this 180 cadence.
Do those same runners have a stride rate of 180 when you ask them to jog a 10 min/mile? Of course not – both stride rate and stride length vary w/ running velocity. It makes no sense to try to copy what elite runners do **QUITE NATURALLY** when you are running at a significantly slower pace. If you really want to run as fast as an elite runner, then just run as fast as they do – provided that you’re of similar build, your stride rate and stride length will be similar to their’s. The only difference is that they can keep it up for much, much longer than those of us w/ much more limited athletic talent. Why is it people have this tendency to complicate and even romanticize such relatively simple motor control tasks such as running or cycling? The first comes quite naturally to human beings, whereas the latter, though an artificial form of locomotion, constrains you so much be seat height, crank length, etc., that you don’t have much option in determining how you pedal. Yet, people involved in these sports seem to want to believe that doing these tasks well is an accomplishment of motor control on par with microsurgery! Now swimming, OTOH, is an endurance sport where motor skill certainly does play a role, but here you have a) a motion that our ancestors have not practiced for eons (as opposed to upright bipedal locomotion) and b) that is not constrained by mechanical devices like pedals and cranks. Consequently, swimming efficiency or economy varies enormously from one person to another, something that is not true of running or cycling, where the range is relatively much less (and even that can be ascribed to biochemical, not biomechanical factors). Like I said, just run – that’s a very effective way of improving your running economy, as shown by lab studies that have followed people over time during a training program…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you can grasp the wisdom contained here, you’ll realize that it’s GAPO at it’s best. What’s "GAPO"? (snip) Next to proper running form and style and an integral part of proper running is breathing and the rhythms of breath. Once good running form is achieved one can keep the same cadence and be running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes a mile faster. To keep the same "cadence" (i.e., stride rate) while running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes per mile faster would require significantly lengthening one’s stride. For most (~90%) runners, this would be *big* mistake – for about 80% of all runners, the freely-chosen stride length is the optimal stride length, while about 10% seem to "naturally" be overstriders (i.e., their freely-chosen stride length is greater than optimal).
I think you’re missing the thrust of the GAPO idea presented here. It’s not that to run fast you should not increase your cadence; it’s that it seems that the best cadence appears to be about 180 steps/min. Many (in fact most of the ones I see) runners run at a cadence slower than 180, so what is suggested will result in a shorter stride for many. Run long, run short, run fast, run slow, but just run…there’s no need to try to override the respiratory control systems that have been evolving for eons and eons.
I know how you feel here. I used to think this way too, and am a very skeptical person. However, I also try to keep an open mind and perform the experiment myself, if possible. When I shortened my stride and therefore increased my cadence to maintain the same pace, I found that I was much more efficient with the shorter stride. It was astouding to me and made me a believer. Now in my case that may be because I have very poor flexibility and in a longer stride I waste a lot of energy in that my quadriceps and hamstrings fight each other too much. Whatever the reason, in my experiment of one, the cadence of about 180 is the best one. So there is one tiny data point. (In fact I have been experimenting with this cadence variable a lot over the past couple of years and will report more later). A much more significant piece of data is the well-documented observation that elite runners have this 180 cadence. Give it a try! Cheers, Peter
Surely all of that tends to ignore the fact that you have a foot attached to the end of your leg?? Foot-strike, landing patterns, ankle-support etc will surely have a larger part to play in the runners choice of stride length than any pendulum stuff. Or am I missing the point here??? — MB. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . To make a blanket recommendation that people lengthen their strides (which is what you have done by claiming that one should strive to maintain a constant cadence) is to encourage about 90% of all people to overstride, resulting in an increase in energy cost. This is not a recommendation. It’s an observed/observable fact. The leg is essentially a compound pendulum. Its first Natural Frequency (NF) also called the fundamental frequency is somewhere around 1.7 Hz. Not an official figure. I ballparked it using my right leg. If you give a pendulum a slight tap it is going to swing freely at its NF. The amplitude of the swing will depend on how hard the tap is. That is to say when the applied force is greater, the amplitute will be proportionally greater, and
conversly, low force input will produce less swing. HOWEVER, the frequency of the motion i.e. the number of cycles per unit time, WILL always be the same. When swinging at its natural frequency the pendulum requires no further force input beyond the initial impulse in order to maintain motion. On the other hand, if one wants the pendulum to swing at a different frequency one has to apply force continuously either to speed it up or slow it down. The force must be applied
continuously. If the force is removed, the pendulum reverts to swinging at its NF. The leg being much like a pendulum, it follows that a runner will expend the least amount of energy when his leg turnover is related to his leg’s natural frequency. Higher running speed is achieved by increasing the amplitude of the leg’s
swing i.e. the stride length. Just as in the case of a pendulum, the runner must apply
greater initial force – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -impulse, basically he’s got to lift his knee higher and produce more of a back kick. Back to 180 steps per minute. My very inaccurate measurement shows the NF to be near 100 cyles/minute (1.7 x 60). One step is a half of the swing cycle so in one minute there are 200 steps. Now, we are getting somewhere. 200 is pretty close to 180. The leg’s NF varies slightly as it is inversely proportional to the length of the leg. Thus we see the long legged runner running at a slightly lower turnover then the little guy. Pete, the math wiz
Despite my extreme reluctance to dispute anything Andy says,
Why be reluctant, Rick? I don’t think I’m *that* nasty when I debate w/ people! I must assert that my own experience shows that what we consider to be a natural stride may not be an economical running motion. Andy’s principle does not hold in cycling, where a typical racing cadence is considerably higher than the natural cadence used by casual riders, and where considerable energy is expended to teach that cadence. And few swimmers can depend on their natural motion; economical motions are natural only to the blessed few who were born with a true feel for the water. Everyone else must train to make unnatural-feeling motions feel natural.
Actually, my argument does pertain to cycling as well, as long as you recognize the distinction between what is most efficient (from a thermodynamic perspective) and what is optimal (from a performance perspective). That is, when allowed to freely choose a pedaling cadence, untrained individuals tend to pedal quite slowly (e.g., 50-60 rpm), which is in fact very close to the most efficient cadence. Trained cyclists, OTOH, tend to pedal more rapidly than what is most efficient, but this seems to be related to the need/desire to reduce local metabolic stress at the expense of a higher demand on the cardiorespiratory system (i.e., higher VO2 and HR). You’re right, though, cycling is an "unnatural" motor task, unlike upright bipedal locomotion (i.e., walking and running), which our ancestors have been practicing for eons. (BTW, most people stop walking and break into a jog at 3.5-4 mph, which is right at the point that it becomes more economical to run than to walk.) So it might make more sense to rely on a comparative biological approach, and look at what other species do to understand things better. Did you know, for example, that when allowed to do so on their own horses tend to switch between gaits (trot, cantor, gallop) at almost exactly the velocity at which it is most efficient (again, from a thermodynamic/energy cost perspective) for them to do so? I can dig up dozens of other examples, but I think you get my point – there’s a lot to be said for "body wisdom" in terms of the ability to self-optimize physiological function. In my own case, I trained myself many years ago to spin at a higher rate on the bicycle, and to maintain as closely as possible that cadence over all terrain, using the gears to adjust the effort.
I can actually twist this around to support my argument…the reason why we all have to train ourselves to spin at a higher rate on the bicycle is because it is NOT efficient to do so (even though it may be optimal). IOW, we have to fight our natural tendency to pedal at slower, more efficient rpm’s… That translates very nicely to the notion of maintaining an even cadence while running, and adjusting the stride length to match the terrain.
Not really, because on a bicycle you can’t really change the range of motion over which the muscles function – in essence, stride length is fixed at twice the crank length. This is, in fact, one thing that makes studying muscle/exercise physiology using cycling as a model somewhat unique, as during prolonged exercise you are forced to recruit the same motor units over and over and over and over and over…talk about an "unnatural" exercise! But I still had to learn how to do it. My running economy has greatly improved (from deplorable to poor) by learning how to maintain a slightly higher cadence.
No offense, but I have to ask – how do you know your running economy has greatly improved? Have you measured your VO2 at various running speeds? If not, you can’t say that your economy has changed – for all you know, you’ve made it worse, in which case you’ve proved my point… Andrew Coggan
And I thought running was just putting one foot in front of the other! So…let’s say I’m a slow runner, 12-minute miles, and running 180 s/m, greater strides is what it takes to get faster, right? Dianne (who counted s/m on a treadmill last night after reading this discussion, surprised to find I hit 176 s/m, although running on a treadmill is pretty unnatural.)
| | / | / | |/ | | | /| | / | | / | | / | | / | | / | |_ /_ |_ A B C You are standing at A with your feet together, you start to fall from the ankles keeping the body erect and straight. As soon as you feel yourself falling, place one of your feet directly under your center of gravity and you will notice that you stopped falling with no jar and you’re now balanced on the leg you put under your center of gravity (C). The B angle is too radical but you get the idea that if you lean, your center of gravity starts to move forward. If you didn’t put down your foot, you’d fall on your face. The more the angle of lean, the faster one falls. So to keep from falling you have to bring your next step forward faster so that you don’t fall. That angle of lean while only a few degrees means you have to bring the feet through faster. Now you know why you go faster. When you lift your knees and march in place, you are going 0 miles/hour. If you lean from the ankle even a degree or two then when you put one foot down underneath you gracefully so as not to fall, that foot is several inches in front of the other foot. That’s why I keep talking about learning to march in place. You can keep the same cadence and realize that it’s the lean from the ankle that increases your speed…because you falling faster a greater distance the more you lean. Remember the leaning is an erect body lean…NOT a hunching from the mid section or waist. Let me know if that picture helps any more. On a tredmill you get even a better sense of what I’m saying. If you stood erect on the tredmill and there was a permanent rail across the tredmill just touching your back. As the tredmill started, the railing would push your upper body forward… In reality the upper body would stay in the same place and the tredmill would pull your feet back behind the rail causing your erect body to fall forward, unless you put your foot down under your center of gravity fast enough to catch yourself. But the tredmill would pull that foot backwards and you’d have to catch yourself with the next step…and the tredmill would pull that leg back and the railing would stop your erect upper body and you’d have to put down the other foot. If I speeded up the tredmill my foot would be pulled back faster and further so I’d have to put by other foot down faster under my center of gravity so the railing wouldn’t stop my upper body making me fall on my face. Now you see that the faster the foot could be pulled backward by the tredmill the great the angle of that leg from the perpendicular…and the need to put down the other foot faster so that the railing against the back is pushing you over faster. Also you begin to see the need for flexibility because if the foot being pulled back by the tredmill couldn’t go far enough back, you couldn’t get the other foot down fast enough to catch yourself. Hmmmmmmm, glib and pompous. I’ve been around too long to be pompous, sometimes righteous, but that doesn’t last long knowing this group. Oppps, it was pedantic. I must confess to that foible. Diane I expect some 8’s, 9’s and 10 minute miles in the very near future. Also remember that when you put your foot down, just the foot goes down, the center of gravity doesn’t have to move up and down. Once you get use to just lifting up your knees, you’ll be amazed at what you can do speed wise and you won’t have practiced anything differently. You’ll have learned to run fast slowly. If you don’t learn to pick up your knees and imagine yourself in toe clips on a bicycle, then you’re doomed to overstriding and stopping yourself with each and every step as you hit on the back of the heel of the shoe and decelerate at every step…jarring your knees and hips and beating the hell out of your ankles. But what the hay, you’re getting an aerobic workout until the injuries and muscle tension and problems make you stop. Anyway, it’s all folklore. If it works you and makes sense, then use it. If it doesn’t, then don’t give it the time of day and find someone else who makes sense and whose folklore works for you. — In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer – rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com
Andrew, I’ll tell you at least from personal experience, there seems to be something physiological which has occured since I adopted breathing control into my regular training. As I said earlier, the first times I tried to keep a 3in-3out breathing pattern in an easy run, I could not. In fact, I felt starved for oxygen after a few minutes, and had to take some "relief" breaths to feel I could continue. However, after about a month, I was running my 6mi easy run 3-3 the whole way. After a year, I graduated to 4-4, but always with concentration to keep it there. I believe that my fitness level before and after were probably equal. I’d guess that my VO2max was probably constant, as my best track times and 5K times were about the same as before, although I realize that times alone do not indicate VO2max. I did, however, have much more success with longer events despite not incorporating any increased mileage into my workouts. I don’t know if I’d developed a greater lung capacity, or it was just the fact that the more relaxed breathing took away one area of stress, but there certainly was a difference. This was especially apparent when I was really tired, as the usual collapse wasn’t happening. I’d hazard a layman’s guess that I slightly increased my lung capacity to take in air, thus allowing my breathing to slow. The reason I saw no benefit in my top-end performance is that probably my max ability to process the oxygen taken in had not changed. The ability to carry on further was most likely the result of the more relaxed state I was maintaining. I have also tried some of the breathing control on the bike, and even if it only gives you something to concentrate on when you’re trying to stay focused on the TT intensity, it seems to have provided me with an overall improvement over just letting my breathing stay random. I’ve felt absolutely done in a few times about 3/4 the way through a hard TT ride, and recovered my composure sometimes by including the breathing control into the complete assessment of my condition. I’ve also found that if I am sick, or just plain out of condition, there is no way I can maintain the really slow, 4in-4out breathing. This would imply that it indeed has some physical ramifications. Chuck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The matching of breathing patterns to movement is called "entrainment", and occurs in many forms of locomotion. It is particularly common during running, since the upper body is involved in the movement and the stride frequency tends to help dictate the breathing frequency. On the other hand, it has been difficult to demonstrate such entrainment during cycling, at least on an ergometer, probably largely because there’s very little upper body movement involved and thus the respiratory muscles are free to operate almost competely independently of those responsible for locomotion. However, the ability of the respiratory system to oxygenate the blood and "blow off" CO2 does not systematically differ between running and cycling, and in fact for most people under most conditions is not limiting to exercise performance. Furthermore, I know of no evidence that entrainment (or the lack thereof) differs between elite athletes and non-elite athletes, or even non-athletes. Thus, while practicing various breathing patterns may provide some psychological benefit as a means of focussing, I see no reason to believe it would have a physiological benefit. Andy
In response to Ozzie Gontang (I think), Andy Coggan demurred: . To make a blanket recommendation that people lengthen their strides (which is what you have done by claiming that one should strive to maintain a constant cadence) is to encourage about 90% of all people to overstride, resulting in an increase in energy cost.
"Y-Rotation" disagreed: This is not a recommendation. It’s an observed/observable fact. The leg is essentially a compound pendulum. Its first Natural Frequency (NF) also called the fundamental frequency is somewhere around 1.7 Hz. Not an official figure. I ballparked it using my right leg. [snipped discussion of achieving running economy by maintaining a cadence that conforms to the natural swing frequency of the leg.]
Despite my extreme reluctance to dispute anything Andy says, I must assert that my own experience shows that what we consider to be a natural stride may not be an economical running motion. Andy’s principle does not hold in cycling, where a typical racing cadence is considerably higher than the natural cadence used by casual riders, and where considerable energy is expended to teach that cadence. And few swimmers can depend on their natural motion; economical motions are natural only to the blessed few who were born with a true feel for the water. Everyone else must train to make unnatural-feeling motions feel natural. In my own case, I trained myself many years ago to spin at a higher rate on the bicycle, and to maintain as closely as possible that cadence over all terrain, using the gears to adjust the effort. That translates very nicely to the notion of maintaining an even cadence while running, and adjusting the stride length to match the terrain. But I still had to learn how to do it. My running economy has greatly improved (from deplorable to poor) by learning how to maintain a slightly higher cadence. The muscles do not necessarily instictively understand that natural frequency. When I learned how to shorten my stride and maintain my cadence, I learned how to enjoy hills (I’m slow on them, but I enjoy them). For those of us for whom running does not come naturally, we must work on technique. Rick "A sloth must study to be more like a cheetah" Denney
I’ve run for 30 years now, and one of the latest improvements to my running has come from breathing control.
< snip The matching of breathing patterns to movement is called "entrainment", and occurs in many forms of locomotion. It is particularly common during running, since the upper body is involved in the movement and the stride frequency tends to help dictate the breathing frequency. On the other hand, it has been difficult to demonstrate such entrainment during cycling,
< snip Breath control figures so strongly in such disparate endeavors as yoga, Tai Chi, powerlifting, climbing, childbirth, and on and on, that it figures to be useful in endurance sports. Earlier in this thread, Ozzie borrowed the phrase "phase locking" from control systems geeks to describe it, and it’s a pretty good phrase. It’d be hard to find swimmers who don’t use it 
and a few runners I know will actually admit that they think about it, but biking is another matter. It’s hard to phase lock on a bike, because there seem to be so many candidate frequencies to synch to. Twenty or so years ago, I fitted my bike with sprockets that gave me 52:13 on the top just so the crank and wheel frequencies were in synch and I could synch my breathing to that. It’s not the recommended way to set up a mechanical drive, but it set up the biomechanics the way I wanted. You should have seen the blank stares of the people in the bike shop when I ordered the parts and described all of this. But then people think that I’m crazy. I suppose I am. I just don’t think that this is evidence of it. < snip some more of Andy’s post Furthermore, I know of no evidence that entrainment (or the lack thereof) differs between elite athletes and non-elite athletes, or even non-athletes.
Data point: I am a devout practitioner of entrainment, and I’m bog-slow at everything. Thus, while practicing various breathing patterns may provide some psychological benefit as a means of focussing,
This, of course, is the point. People are making careers out of coaching the psychology of endurance sports and teaching how to focus. Indeed, in some yogic exercises, breath control becomes THE center of BEING. I see no reason to believe it would have a physiological benefit.
But there’s a purely practical benefit. For me, the breathing patterns 6/6 4/4 (4/2 2/4 3/3) 2/2 correlate nearly perfectly with heart rate. True, entrainment and breathing control may have no (directly measurable?) physiological benefit, but its use as an immediate measure of how I’m feeling is important. Like dropping back to 4/4 for a few hundred meters before the hill, where I expect to be able to dust all those pathetic plodders who have somehow managed to get in front of me. Cheers, Fred – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Andy
And I thought running was just putting one foot in front of the other! So…let’s say I’m a slow runner, 12-minute miles, and running 180 s/m, greater strides is what it takes to get faster, right? Dianne (who counted s/m on a treadmill last night after reading this discussion, surprised to find I hit 176 s/m, although running on a treadmill is pretty unnatural.)
. To make a blanket recommendation that people lengthen their strides (which is what you have done by claiming that one should strive to maintain a constant cadence) is to encourage about 90% of all people to overstride, resulting in an increase in energy cost.
This is not a recommendation. It’s an observed/observable fact. The leg is essentially a compound pendulum. Its first Natural Frequency (NF) also called the fundamental frequency is somewhere around 1.7 Hz. Not an official figure. I ballparked it using my right leg. If you give a pendulum a slight tap it is going to swing freely at its NF. The amplitude of the swing will depend on how hard the tap is. That is to say when the applied force is greater, the amplitute will be proportionally greater, and conversly, low force input will produce less swing. HOWEVER, the frequency of the motion i.e. the number of cycles per unit time, WILL always be the same. When swinging at its natural frequency the pendulum requires no further force input beyond the initial impulse in order to maintain motion. On the other hand, if one wants the pendulum to swing at a different frequency one has to apply force continuously either to speed it up or slow it down. The force must be applied continuously. If the force is removed, the pendulum reverts to swinging at its NF. The leg being much like a pendulum, it follows that a runner will expend the least amount of energy when his leg turnover is related to his leg’s natural frequency. Higher running speed is achieved by increasing the amplitude of the leg’s swing i.e. the stride length. Just as in the case of a pendulum, the runner must apply greater initial force impulse, basically he’s got to lift his knee higher and produce more of a back kick. Back to 180 steps per minute. My very inaccurate measurement shows the NF to be near 100 cyles/minute (1.7 x 60). One step is a half of the swing cycle so in one minute there are 200 steps. Now, we are getting somewhere. 200 is pretty close to 180. The leg’s NF varies slightly as it is inversely proportional to the length of the leg. Thus we see the long legged runner running at a slightly lower turnover then the little guy. Pete, the math wiz
(many comments about running theory and attempts to analyze TV coverage snipped) This observation about the 180 steps/minute was also made by St. George when running around a track. He noticed that when the faster runners passed him he was doing the same stride cadence as they were but they were at a 5 minute/mile pace to his 8 minute/mile pace.
Comparing faster and slower runners is inappropriate – what matters is the relationship between pace, stride frequency, stride length, and economy (oxygen uptake, VO2) *within a given individual*. These have been studied extensively by biomechanists and physiologists, using tools (e.g., force platforms, high-speed cameras capable of hundreds of frames per second) w/ much greater precision than a TV videotape. As I said before, for the vast majority of individuals the freely chosen stride length is the most economical (least physiological strain) for that person, with only a very small percentage of individuals having a habit of under- or overstriding. To make a blanket recommendation that people lengthen their strides (which is what you have done by claiming that one should strive to maintain a constant cadence) is to encourage about 90% of all people to overstride, resulting in an increase in energy cost. If arguments from sports science won’t convince you, how about a teleological one: do you suppose a cheetah chasing after game at ~60 mph is worrying about its stride length, cadence, breathing pattern, etc.? Of course not…
I’ve run for 30 years now, and one of the latest improvements to my running has come from breathing control. I never gave it much thought until about 5 year ago when reading a particularly "heady" book about heart rate/lactate training. It casually mentioned the elite runner’s breathing being in a regular pattern of 4-5 steps in, 4-5 step out.
Chuck, The matching of breathing patterns to movement is called "entrainment", and occurs in many forms of locomotion. It is particularly common during running, since the upper body is involved in the movement and the stride frequency tends to help dictate the breathing frequency. On the other hand, it has been difficult to demonstrate such entrainment during cycling, at least on an ergometer, probably largely because there’s very little upper body movement involved and thus the respiratory muscles are free to operate almost competely independently of those responsible for locomotion. However, the ability of the respiratory system to oxygenate the blood and "blow off" CO2 does not systematically differ between running and cycling, and in fact for most people under most conditions is not limiting to exercise performance. Furthermore, I know of no evidence that entrainment (or the lack thereof) differs between elite athletes and non-elite athletes, or even non-athletes. Thus, while practicing various breathing patterns may provide some psychological benefit as a means of focussing, I see no reason to believe it would have a physiological benefit. Andy
To keep the same "cadence" (i.e., stride rate) while running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes per mile faster would require significantly lengthening one’s stride.
Depends. If going from 12 min / mi to 10 min / mi that’s a 20% increase. If going from 7min/mi to5 min/mi that’s a 40% increase. So – it depends. Assumes no cadence increase. Few of the latter runners would see as much speed improvement as the former. For most (~90%) runners, this would be *big* mistake – for about 80% of all runners, the freely-chosen stride length is the optimal stride length, while about 10% seem to "naturally" be overstriders (i.e., their freely-chosen stride length is greater than optimal).
Stride length varies with running speed. If left to their own, as most runners increase speed, the cadence increases at one-fifth the rate of stride length. Example: A 10 min per mile runner speeds up to 8 min/mi. That’s a 25% increase in speed. The runners cadence would generally increase by 5% (not really, but stay with me). Therefore, if the cadence had been 180 steps/min (s/m), then at 8 min/mi it would be 189 s/m. At 10min/mi: Stride Length (s/l) = 5280 ft/(10min*180 s/m) = 2.933 ft/step. At 8 min/mi: s/l = 5280 ft/(8min*189 s/m) = 3.49 ft/step. So, in fact the stride length only increased; s/l incr. = ((3.49/2.933)-1)*100 = 19%. The reason for only 19% is that the cadence increase, which does occur, causes a greater distance to be covered. So, in reality, if the time were taken to do a proper simultaneous solution of the equations, the result would be more like a 21% s/l and 4+% s/m increase. The point? Stride length and rate both affect *distance per unit time* considerations. As running speed changes, both tend to change. Better breathing, means more energy which in turn means greater force developed at toe-off. More force at toe-off means quicker strides AND greater distance during the airborne phase – ergo, increased stride length. The definitive study on s/l and stride rate was published in 1978 by Runners World. Bill Rogers was one of many subjects in the study. Very interesting stuff. Run long, run short, run fast, run slow, but just run…there’s no need to try to override the respiratory control systems that have been evolving for eons and eons. Andrew Coggan
Denny Anderson To ERR is human… to ZIN, divine!
I just want to say ssomething about the stride length increase. When the stride length increases it does not become an overstride. This is where Bob Pritchard of Somax used to sit on color/ commentary of NYC Marathon and I think at the Olympics and measure the stride angle of the runners and predict who would be doing well or later near the end of the race, whose stride angle had decreased and what that meant regarding their finishing time. With the Olympic tape that Denny has, the runners centers of gravity are over/or slightly in front of the landing foot. So the runners were landing ball/heel or for some what looked like a heel strike was really midfoot when you went frame by frame. For those whose foot swung in front of the knee, by the time it touched down, the runner’s center of gravity had moved over or in front of the midsole landing. The problem with most runners is that they do not pick up their knees so the lower leg pendulums forward and the runner lands on the back of the heel of the shoe which means that the foot is landing in front of the center of gravity of the body and therefore acting as a decelerator of forward horizontal movement. When one learns to run by picking up their knees, i.e. marching in place, and then leaning the erect body forward front the ankle like the broom balanced in the palm of the hand falling forward…and the person going as fast as the falling broom so that the person balancing the broom is running at the same speed as the falling broom, the broom’s angle of fall remains constant. Now in running at a minute or 2 minutes or 3 minutes faster a mile and maintaining a constant average of 180 steps a minute, the issue becomes one of flexibility and the ability of moving the legs through a longer horizontal distance while keeping the 180 cadence constant. This is where the heel closer to the butt creates a smaller lever arm which means knee/thigh can be brought through faster than if the leg is at 90 degrees or less. The flexibility allows for a longer stride, including the float time, so that the runner can put his foot down faster through a longer range of motion. When that flexibility can be maintained, then the antagonist muscle groups are stretching and relaxing while the agonist can contract and not have to do any extra work against a slightly contracted antagonist which creates a narrower Prichard stride angle. So I’m back to the statement that Running is one continuous fall where you catch yourself gracefully with each step. You keep the body moving in its horizontal direction with minimal vertical displacement. That minimal vertical displacement is like a runner sitting on a virtual unicycle. The runner/virtual unicyclist is falling forward and he/she is pedaling with the feet so that he/she maintains a constant pedaling speed so the runner/virtual unicyclist does not fall but continue to zip forward. That unicyclist image is what your elite runners do. That image starts with lifting the knees up and down in place and going zero miles an hour. That image when leaning from the ankle amd lifting the knees in place is what gets the jogger who is a 10 to 12 minute a mile runner to become a 7,8,or 9 minute miler with minimal effort. It’s what Denny is talking about and Miles and all the others that have thought beyond the heel/ball image when speaking about good running form and style. The heel/ball image of running is for most runners the proverbial overstride – meaning the foot lands in front of one’s center of gravity. For triathletes, if they can take the image of cycling and spinning, that is how the feet move when one is running in good form. The leg scribes the same circle as if one were pedaling, but the shoe is attached to the tire. This observation about the 180 steps/minute was also made by St. George when running around a track. He noticed that when the faster runners passed him he was doing the same stride cadence as they were but they were at a 5 minute/mile pace to his 8 minute/mile pace. Enough of my pedantry and wishing I could be more glib. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To keep the same "cadence" (i.e., stride rate) while running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes per mile faster would require significantly lengthening one’s stride. Depends. If going from 12 min / mi to 10 min / mi that’s a 20% increase. If going from 7min/mi to5 min/mi that’s a 40% increase. So – it depends. Assumes no cadence increase. Few of the latter runners would see as much speed improvement as the former. For most (~90%) runners, this would be *big* mistake – for about 80% of all runners, the freely-chosen stride length is the optimal stride length, while about 10% seem to "naturally" be overstriders (i.e., their freely-chosen stride length is greater than optimal). Stride length varies with running speed. If left to their own, as most runners increase speed, the cadence increases at one-fifth the rate of stride length. Example: A 10 min per mile runner speeds up to 8 min/mi. That’s a 25% increase in speed. The runners cadence would generally increase by 5% (not really, but stay with me). Therefore, if the cadence had been 180 steps/min (s/m), then at 8 min/mi it would be 189 s/m. At 10min/mi: Stride Length (s/l) = 5280 ft/(10min*180 s/m) = 2.933 ft/step. At 8 min/mi: s/l = 5280 ft/(8min*189 s/m) = 3.49 ft/step. So, in fact the stride length only increased; s/l incr. = ((3.49/2.933)-1)*100 = 19%. The reason for only 19% is that the cadence increase, which does occur, causes a greater distance to be covered. So, in reality, if the time were taken to do a proper simultaneous solution of the equations, the result would be more like a 21% s/l and 4+% s/m increase. The point? Stride length and rate both affect *distance per unit time* considerations. As running speed changes, both tend to change. Better breathing, means more energy which in turn means greater force developed at toe-off. More force at toe-off means quicker strides AND greater distance during the airborne phase – ergo, increased stride length. The definitive study on s/l and stride rate was published in 1978 by Runners World. Bill Rogers was one of many subjects in the study. Very interesting stuff. Run long, run short, run fast, run slow, but just run…there’s no need to try to override the respiratory control systems that have been evolving for eons and eons. Andrew Coggan Denny Anderson To ERR is human… to ZIN, divine!
– In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer – rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com
If you can grasp the wisdom contained here, you’ll realize that it’s GAPO at it’s best. What’s "GAPO"? (snip)
Oz says it’s either *Great All Powerful OZ* or* Gorilla Arm Pit Order*. Possibly *Glib and Pedantic OZ* :~} Sounds like something which would have been introduced by Miles L. Denny Anderson To ERR is human… to ZIN, divine!
Andrew, I agree with tour assessment of the stride length, but I have to take issue with your passing off breathing control as of no merit. I’ve run for 30 years now, and one of the latest improvements to my running has come from breathing control. I never gave it much thought until about 5 year ago when reading a particularly "heady" book about heart rate/lactate training. It casually mentioned the elite runner’s breathing being in a regular pattern of 4-5 steps in, 4-5 step out. I took note on my next easy run, and I had no regular method. I certainly could not go 4 steps in/out for more than a minute or so, and I was thus fascinated with this. I worked on 3/3, and it took about five runs until I could make my full 6mi easy run that way. After about a year of work, I could do all my easy runs at 3/3, and now have made it to 4/4 for the easy runs, 3/3 if a little more effort is needed. I must still, however, think about it. The 3/3 breathing has become much more automatic, but without though I go back to some sort of uneven breathing, not consistant, and certainly not as relaxing to the overall felling of control. The end result is much more control and relaxation. Even in a race, I now take note to keep the breathing regular,usually 2/2. My performances have stayed about the same, even as I’m aging, but I am MUCH more relaxed than I used to be. I’ve also kept the breathing control practice inmy track workouts, and there certainly is merit to it’s effectiveness. Chuck
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you can grasp the wisdom contained here, you’ll realize that it’s GAPO at it’s best. What’s "GAPO"? (snip) Next to proper running form and style and an integral part of proper running is breathing and the rhythms of breath. Once good running form is achieved one can keep the same cadence and be running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes a mile faster. To keep the same "cadence" (i.e., stride rate) while running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes per mile faster would require significantly lengthening one’s stride. For most (~90%) runners, this would be *big* mistake – for about 80% of all runners, the freely-chosen stride length is the optimal stride length, while about 10% seem to "naturally" be overstriders (i.e., their freely-chosen stride length is greater than optimal). Run long, run short, run fast, run slow, but just run…there’s no need to try to override the respiratory control systems that have been evolving for eons and eons. Andrew Coggan
while running in good form: If you can grasp the wisdom contained here, you’ll realize that it’s GAPO at it’s best. [ ... snip ... ]
Ozzie, Thanks you for your contributions in the last few days to rec.sport.triathlon. Your writings reflect an insight into the efforts of running that is not readily apparent. I have always enjoyed your posts in rec.running, but find keeping up with so many newsgroups to be difficult, and rarely read groups besides r.s.t. I am really happy that you’ve started crossposting here. Keep it up. Lance P.S. What is GAPO? — | Lance Ball | Anima Sana in Corpore Sano
If you can grasp the wisdom contained here, you’ll realize that it’s GAPO at it’s best.
What’s "GAPO"? (snip) Next to proper running form and style and an integral part of proper running is breathing and the rhythms of breath. Once good running form is achieved one can keep the same cadence and be running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes a mile faster.
To keep the same "cadence" (i.e., stride rate) while running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes per mile faster would require significantly lengthening one’s stride. For most (~90%) runners, this would be *big* mistake – for about 80% of all runners, the freely-chosen stride length is the optimal stride length, while about 10% seem to "naturally" be overstriders (i.e., their freely-chosen stride length is greater than optimal). Run long, run short, run fast, run slow, but just run…there’s no need to try to override the respiratory control systems that have been evolving for eons and eons. Andrew Coggan
If you can grasp the wisdom contained here, you’ll realize that it’s GAPO at it’s best. Path: electriciti.com!gontang Newsgroups: rec.running Organization: Int’l Assn of Marathoners I would appreciate any hints on the best way to breathe while jogging .
This post scrolled off a few days ago: Do long distance runners use any type of breating control? Like Long deep breaths? Or is it just best to breath naturally? Stan Just try to breath naturally. Try breathing through your nose only. When you are used to it you breathe as if sitting on your couch. Rob
Next to proper running form and style and an integral part of proper running is breathing and the rhythms of breath. Once good running form is achieved one can keep the same cadence and be running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes a mile faster. The issue is getting the leg through its cycle to touch the ground maintaining the same cadence. This is where the concept of running is falling and catching oneself gracefully. To that end, breathing becomes the next important factor in maintaining an oxygen uptake to support the increased speed while maintaining the same cadence turnover. This is where I teach breathing at slower speeds to a 4 steps in and 4 to 8 steps out. The idea is that I am never panicked and that my breathing sequences are always enough to sustain the rate of turnover…which maintains at the same cadence be it a 9 or 10 minute mile or a 5 minute or better mile. So running slow, I do a 4 in and 6 or 8.. Then as I need more air I go to a 4in/8out; 1 cycle of air every 12 steps 2 cycles every 24 steps 4in/7out; 1 cycle of air every 11 steps 4in/6out; 1 cycle of air every 10 steps 4in/5out; 1 cycle of air every 9 steps 4in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 8 steps 3 cycles every 24 steps 3in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 7 steps 3in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 6 steps 4 cycles every 24 steps 2in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 5 steps 2in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 4 steps 6 cycles every 24 steps 1in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 3 steps 8 cycles every 24 steps 1in/1out/1in/1out/2in/2out 9 cycles every 24 steps 1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out 12 cycles every 24 steps The ideal one goes for is the same volume at all rhythms. Remember you’re always breathing though the nose even when the mouth is open…unless your nose is blocked, i.e. nasal congestion. All of these patterns are breathed at a rate so that the mind stays calm and does not let any of the body unnecessarily tighten up from a perceived stress beyond one’s capability. The other aspect of breathing cycles is that an even (symmetric) breathing pattern, which means when the steps in & steps out total an even number, the runner is always running on the same foot at intake and also at exhale. With an odd (asymmetric) breathing pattern, which means when the steps in & steps out total an odd number, the runner is running off the opposite foot at initial intake step of each breathing cycle in three steps/out four steps in three steps/our four steps in-two-three out-two-three-four in-two-three out-two-three-four LFT-2 - 3—Rt -two-three-four RT-two-three Lft-two-three-four LFT-two-three… L 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7 L 2 3… In animals there is a breathing pattern which is called phase locking. It has been photographed at high speeds in horses, cheetahs, ostriches where at full speed there is one pattern into which they fall. In humans, if I remember from the research, there were found two phase lock patterns at top speed. I have the research article somewhere in one of my files. I’ll see if I can dig it up. So you can see if you breath 2in/2out all the time and we speed up you can only continue to do what you do. You only get 6 cycles of air every 24 steps. Whereas I can pick up the speed and get 8 cycles or even 9 cycles of air every 24 steps…and if I practice I can get 10 or 12 cycles every 24 steps. You may begin to realize that running a marathon during the later part of the run from 15 onwards is a matter of running in a trance state. It is through these breathing patterns I have taught people to play with the rhythms of their breath to keep on going. So for someone whose muscles are glycogen depleted I need to maintain the same running pace but increase the amount of oxygen to those muscles…and that is where the breathing patterns come in. Some people begin to realize the power of rhythm. When I run with a partner and we are doing symmetric breathing of 2in/2out or 3in/3out or 4in/4out, I do reciprocal breathing so that after 3 or 4 minutes as they breathe out I am breathing in and as they breathe in I am breathing out. The sound can be heard and the experience is that the other person’s out breath is breathing me and on the next cycle mine his/hers. Eyes on the horizon, breathing reciprocally with my partner, the miles covered in trance are an experience to remember. When into the breathing and at different breathing patterns both symmetric and asymmetric and some being reciprocal, the breathing patterns of 3 or 4 or 5 of us mixed with the foot touch (rather than foot fall)can carry a group of runners easily for miles where the mind scans the body to relax any tension as it arises and lets it go…going back to the sound of the feet running together and the breathe of the pack. If you’ve seen Stomp you know the power of rhythm! — In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer – rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 (Mindful Running) http://www.mindfulness.com
how the hell do youknow all this about me?
John, I also know that you were birthday is 2 days after mine… ;-) John "Pisces" Welch
John, I also know that you were birthday is 2 days after mine… ;-) John "Pisces" Welch
So that puts "Irongeek’s" birthday at February 24. Should we also tell John H. that he uses an NEC 386???
John, I also know that you were birthday is 2 days after mine… ;-) John "Pisces" Welch So that puts "Irongeek’s" birthday at February 24. Should we also tell John H. that he uses an NEC 386???
Nope, the 20th of February. You needed to subtract rather than add… Pat (another pisces) Sobrero
You’d be amazed at what we know about you. What else do you want to know? How about how much money you made last year? How about where you live? How about your mom and dad’s name. Height? Weight, SSN? Color, schooling? You name it, one of us can find it. People from all walks of life here. Merry Christmas and DejaNews! Schwing how the hell do youknow all this about me? my # of post..topic of
post?????
how the hell do youknow all this about me? my # of post..topic of post?????
<<how the hell do youknow all this about me? my # of post..topic of post????? Easy, I did the same thing when I read your post. Go to: Search. Fill in your screen name for author, and GO. You can also narrow your search to rst, and then see what you wrote and see what was answered. For that, click "view thread." Scary, ain’t it? Big Brother is already here. Actually it is VERY useful, you can search according to subjects you are interested in. If you like the answers a particular person gives, you can go back and read almost whatever else that person has written (within certain time restraints). It has been very useful for me. Take care, have fun searching out your favorite topics, -Pat
Dejanews. Jeff. (sign your name someday) how the hell do youknow all this about me? my # of post..topic of
post?????
on several ocassions I have asked and pleaded for hrlp and guidance on this NG to no avail..
Dude, you’re from Sarasota,FL. There are two great ( ok one good and one great ) Tris there. Go do one. Have fun with it and see what you need to do to improve. At least go watch one. Oh and St. Pete’s just up the road… you gotta see St. Anthony’s even if you don’t do it.. Al Kormesser
Hey, thanks for this tip, Pat! I now know that before today I’ve posted 275 times to r.s.t. since August 1995. And I’ve been able to revisit a few interesting threads that I’d either lost or forgotten. Tripping through r.s.t of yesteryear has encouraged me to suggest a topical post topic. Let’s try New Years’ Wishes (hey, it’s only in a week!). Here are my top 10: 10. That the wind always be at our backs when we are riding. 9. That the next advance in full-length wetsuits make them a lot easier to get out of. 8. That Leptospirosis never again be found in Lake Springfield or any other body of H2O in which triathletes swim. 7. That a lengthy section on safe driving among bicyclists be added to the driver’s test in every state and nation. 6. That every waterstop have plenty of fluid and food. 5. That someone invent an ultralight bike-mounted radar device that signals when one is in a drafting zone. 4. That all of us find it easy to train whenever we want, early in the morning, at noon, in the early evening and at night. (But let’s not think about 5-a-days!) 3. That we get picked in every race lottery we enter. 2. That none of us gets injured or ill. 1. That we find peace and happiness as triathletes! Happy Holidays! –Lee Crumbaugh (Tri-Hard) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Go to: Search. Fill in your screen name for author, and GO. You can also narrow your search to rst, and then see what you wrote and see what was answered. For that, click "view thread." Scary, ain’t it? Big Brother is already here. Actually it is VERY useful, you can search according to subjects you are interested in. If you like the answers a particular person gives, you can go back and read almost whatever else that person has written (within certain time restraints). It has been very useful for me. Take care, have fun searching out your favorite topics, -Pat
It’s probably too late this year but the best way to start is to go to a triathlon and watch. Then talk to the people in person at the event. (everyone is real helpful). Then come to RST and ask some serious questions like — What size and type of bike, with what tire and rim setup should I ride when I am on my fruitcake diet, will help me from peeing in my shoes when I am at church on Sunday thinking about my heart rate. Make sure you mention how much fun it is to draft durring a triathlon and always be serious!!! D.J. " is anybody out there? hello? anybody?? Oh well, they must snub because they love!!" (IRONKID)
To ask "How do I go about this?" is to big a question to answer in a post. It’s like asking my daughter "What do you do in pre-school today?" She can’t answer, it’s too big a question. Ask her what book they read, or what she drew that day, and she’ll give me a great answer. So why not try questions like "What’s your favorite bike interval workout" or "what kind of mileage to put in". I’ve gotten tons of good training info reading these sort of threads, and these kind of questions benefit all of us. There are some training geniuses out there. Happy holidays to all. Doleo, ergo sum Scott Hoffman
I’m sorry that you feel snubbed… I sometimes find myself in your situation. I find the best way to get your questions answered is to get into as many debates as possible. That way you can slip in a question here and there and noone will notice .
As in a chainring size debate called: "Why isn’t titanium more popular in Ironman". Gerard Vroomen, Cervelo Cycles. website: http://www.cervelo.com
c – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry that you feel snubbed… I sometimes find myself in your situation. I find the best way to get your questions answered is to get into as many debates as possible. That way you can slip in a question here and there and noone will notice . As in a chainring size debate called: "Why isn’t titanium more popular in Ironman". Gerard Vroomen, Cervelo Cycles. website: http://www.cervelo.com
The person first responding to your post here seems to have looked up your past posts and found that you want to know this; Seeking training help for 1st Tri or Du
Sorry you feel snubbed. Now, I ask, have you gone out and done any tris or dus this year? Probably a lot of your questions migh be ansswered if you did. Or at least you would have been more knowledgeable in order to specify your questions. My first answer would be to go out and do a tri or a du. If you look at your splits, etc then you can see exactly where you would need training help. Most likely you would need to whittle down your transition time as this is one of the things that beginners spend too much time. Suggestion, use two seperate pairs of run shoes for any duathlon you race. Another suggestion for training – do bricks, a ride, then a run immediately after. There are many, many posts on here about training and there is a lot (almost too much) info published. Try INSIDE TRIATHLON where there is a regular column devoted to just duathlon training. Whatever you do, do not use the lack of responses to your posts as an excuse to not race. If that is the case then you need to examine your desire to race in the first place. Ken
I had the same feeling when I first started my RST activities. I posted a similar complaint, and received a very large amount of mail from people who definitely were aware of my posts. Seems like I didn’t give enough of a subject to respond to. Since then, I have been more selective in asking real questions or making real comments and have been rewarded with lots of interaction. Also, I believe some people are more inclined to respond to people they know, or are part of a group, but that is their right just as it is your right to mingle with the people of your choice. RST isn’t that much different from any real life situation except that you happen to be talking to a whole lot of people with similar interests. Fun, isn’t it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – on several ocassions I have asked and pleaded for hrlp and guidance on this NG to no avail……Just wqanteds to say thanks and happy kwansa..X- mas..hanuka.. or anyother thing you guys celebrate
on several ocassions I have asked and pleaded for hrlp and guidance on this NG to no avail……Just wqanteds to say thanks and happy kwansa..X- mas..hanuka.. or anyother thing you guys celebrate
on several ocassions I have asked and pleaded for hrlp and guidance on this NG to no avail……Just wqanteds to say thanks and happy kwansa..X- mas..hanuka.. or anyother thing you guys celebrate
J Hansen, Sorry you felt snubbed. Ive seen this happen before. It was nothing against you personally just that questions asking for tips for a first triathlon come very often. During the season i would venture to say atleast twice a week. So it wasnt you just that no one probably wanted to touch it because it has be rehashed time and time again. Next time be more specific and you will probably get some good responses. Such as: "Anyone have any good tips on saving time in transition" or "What to wear during first try". Good Luck. Rob.
Ok, I’ll take this one. Just got the kids to bed and all of the presents are wrapped, sipping on an egg nog and brandy… ummm. I like the off season. Oh back to the subject at hand. Since you haven’t signed your name to any posts (that I’ve seen) I’ll call you JHansen882. That’s nice and personal Looks like you have posted to this NG around 33 times since December 1997. Almost 3 posts a month. You’ve been involved in threads involving Sharks, powerbars, Drafting, gearing, and Cranks to name a few. Most of the posts have been pleads looking for help with duathlon training. While it looks like you have gotten some action from these "requests", I get the feeling that they are not what you would like. Personally, I’d be happy to help you out with duathlon training, but haven’t got a clue what to say. I haven’t done any duathlons. I would hazard a guess that the others in this NG might be of similar persuasion. If we don’t know, we don’t say. As far as your request for a 1st tri, I offer the subject and body of the request: Author: JHansen882 Forums: rec.sport.triathlon
—– Someone…Anyone please help……
That’s not a heckuva lot to go on. There are tons of resources available. The *first* place I went was to the book store. Then the cycling store, then the masters program. Then after all of that I started working out. Swimming, biking, and running. Repeat. Repeat x Many. Race. Race some more and meet people. Ask some questions about Traithlon from Triathletes, and Duathlon from Duathletes. After some of that, hit the NG with some great questions. Or ask them now. But in order to get, you’ve gotta give. From where I sit, I don’t think you’ve been snubbed, just maybe you stumped the panel! Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – on several ocassions I have asked and pleaded for hrlp and guidance on this NG to no avail……Just wqanteds to say thanks and happy kwansa..X- mas..hanuka.. or anyother thing you guys celebrate
I’m sorry that you feel snubbed… I sometimes find myself in your situation. I find the best way to get your questions answered is to get into as many debates as possible. That way you can slip in a question here and there and noone will notice . I’ve found my self being slack in this group… a "lurker" who reads everybodys posts but never contributes to the discussion. That’s why my New Year’s resolution is to post and add to discussion in this group almost every day. So you people better get used to hearing me!!! — Salvador Santolucito III – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – on several ocassions I have asked and pleaded for hrlp and guidance on this NG to no avail……Just wqanteds to say thanks and happy kwansa..X- mas..hanuka.. or anyother thing you guys celebrate
Has anyone seen or know where I can find the results to this race???
The results for the Buffalo Springs Lake Triathlon will be posted within 24 hours, todays date is June 30. The address is http://greerinc.com. Mike Greer, Race Director
I would recommend free weights simply because you can work multiple joints in a routine and spend less time in the gym and more time on the bike and the run or swim.
Hi Keith, could you mail the handout to me? Steve LeMire
Keith, Please send me a copy this handout, also. thanks Gene Leddin
Well I am on my second year as a Tri-athlete and I am starting to look at adding some weight lifting exercises to my regimen. Can someone recomend specific exercises, number of reps, etc to do? The gym I use has free weights and Cybex equipment…also wondering which one of these I should focus on. Thanks in advance!
Well, that’s a pretty big set of questions, but I’ll take a shot at some of them. First, I think there is general agreement that weight training is important for tri fitness. That is also my experience. Second, weight training must be worked into your training regime carefully. You do not want to do a heavy leg session in the morning and be doing intervals on the road that same day. As for routines, weights, reps/sets, that is an area of much debate. I assume the low rep/high weight vs high rep/low weight distinction is understood. Obviously, lots of muscle mass detracts from performance – Arnold is NOT the goal! However, a certain amount of increased mass (and hence aesthetic improvement) is inevitable I think. My own training was medium weight/medium reps – whatever weight would allow me to do at least three sets of at least 10 reps per set, I usually managed four sets per exercise. I did not do any supersetting, weight increasing for each set, etc.- too much mass and too much time. I wanted to do about 15 different exercises each visit. Regarding which exercises, overall conditioning is the goal, so you need to work your legs, arms, chest, abs and back. Might do some neck work if holding the old helmet up is a problem after a few hours. Focus on known areas of weakness to prevent injury. For instance, I did alot of squats and hack squats to develop my tiny butt – which was weak enough that I was getting injured. I recommend some lower back exercises – gently if you’ve a history of injury there – to help with cycling. I would do sets of lower back extensions – matched by crunches and situps for the opposing muscle groups. This helped my bike comfort tremendously. Triathlon works your whole body – so you need to do the same in the gym. Ideally, I would recommend splitting your workouts into upper body one day, lower the next, – with runnng or cycling the same day as lifting for upper body, swim when you do the leg weights. However, I never had that luxury and if you schedule a slow or tempo day with the weights you might not overstress yourself. As for free weights vs machines, both have adherents and benefits. Machines are surely a faster workout and possibly safer. However, I’ve always been into free weights. More variety of exercises and each rep is a little different – stressing a slightly different part of the muscle in a different way. Seems more natural to me and more likely to stress muscles the way I will in tri. My exercises included the following: Curls – for biceps Tricep extensions – seated or standing overhead and kneeling over on bench Flys for pects Reverse flys – for upper back and shoulders Pullovers – lying on bench – for lats and pects Upright rows – shoulders Kneeling rows (I think that’s the right name) – upper back Standing lateral raises – delts Front raises – delts back extensions – lower back leg lifts on Roman chair – watch your back here! situps – abs crunches – upper abs leg lifts – lots of variations here – abs squats – on the rack – overall legs but hams/glutes hack squats – sled – quads/legs lat pulldowns lunges – if feeling really good! I never did much for calves – figure running stresses them enough as it is and mine are pretty big anyway! My leg sets were weak – someone else can probably provide better exercises and variations. Wow. That’s alot of exercises and alot of writing. Hope that helps – if I can add something let me know! Bob J Largo, FL
Well I am on my second year as a Tri-athlete and I am starting to look at adding some weight lifting exercises to my regimen. Can someone recomend specific exercises, number of reps, etc to do? The gym I use has free weights and Cybex equipment…also wondering which one of these I should focus on. Thanks in advance!
Well I am on my second year as a Tri-athlete and I am starting to look at adding some weight lifting exercises to my regimen. Can someone recomend specific exercises, number of reps, etc to do? The gym I use has free weights and Cybex equipment…also wondering which one of these I should focus on. Thanks in advance!
One great exercise very few people do is a lat pull down using a rope. It works the lats in a way more like swimming than more exercises. Here’s how you do it: Instead of sitting in front of the lat-pulldown bar, kneel a few feet away from the machine. Instead of the wide bar that most people use for the lat-pull down, use a rope attachment. If your gym doesn’t have a rope attachment, bring a towel and wrap it once across the attachment site. Take a piece of rope in each hand, and start your pulldown from a very elongated stretch (you should be standing on your knees to begin). Now, think of the pulldown like you would your swim stroke. First, there is a "catch" when the rope gets pulled tight. Then you sweep down, concentrating on your lats. At the bottom of the stroke, it becomes like a tricep pushdown. Also, think about cruching your stomach at the bottom (although this is not part of the normal swim stroke). This is a really nice exercise, becuase it uses the lats along with the forearms, tris, and abs in one motion. Good luck The Bertha Gary P. Chimes MD/PhD Student
Well I am on my second year as a Tri-athlete and I am starting to look at adding some weight lifting exercises to my regimen. Can someone recomend specific exercises, number of reps, etc to do? The gym I use has free weights and Cybex equipment…also wondering which one of these I should focus on. Thanks in advance!
PB: I picked up a great handout from the "Multi-Sport School of Champions". Diane Butcha (Mark Allen’s and Paula Newby-Fraser’s Strength Coach) provided a demonstration and left us with a periodization weight training schedule. Give me a call with your address. I will be happy to mail you one. Good Luck with your training. –Keith Simmons Ironman Triathlon Wetsuits (800) 897-6464 (804) 288-6000
PB: I picked up a great handout from the "Multi-Sport School of Champions". Diane Butcha (Mark Allen’s and Paula Newby-Fraser’s Strength Coach) provided a demonstration and left us with a periodization weight training schedule. Give me a call with your address. I will be happy to mail you one. Good Luck with your training. –Keith Simmons Ironman Triathlon Wetsuits (800) 897-6464 (804) 288-6000 P.S.- I have used this schedule for the past two years. However, I still don’t look like Mark Allen. OH WELL!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well I am on my second year as a Tri-athlete and I am starting to look at adding some weight lifting exercises to my regimen. Can someone recomend specific exercises, number of reps, etc to do? The gym I use has free weights and Cybex equipment…also wondering which one of these I should focus on. Thanks in advance!
Good start, but I have a couple things on my mind about it. If you aren’t the best cyclist, wouldn’t it still be advantageous to stay in the pack? The pack tends to go faster than individual cyclists, so a better time would be achieved by staying that way. Would this now make the sport a test of who is the best at a single sport and can hold his/her own in the others? For example your IMH calculations. Just wondering. Jason
This is a good point, the pack would still be there, but the guy who really wants to win will have to make a break, maybe breaks will be made in pairs or threes, but ideally these smaller packs would break up too. As far as the IMH calcs go, I think that Mueller was probably the better all round athelete (check his splits !), though I did’nt do the IMH calcs so I don’t know that record they were measured against. tim
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stuff deleted. This is a good point, the pack would still be there, but the guy who really wants to win will have to make a break, maybe breaks will be made in pairs or threes, but ideally these smaller packs would break up too. tim IDEALLY!!! even the smaller packs wouldn’t form at all and no drafting would exist ever, in Triathlon. Packs form when weaker riders hammer to catch up a small distance behind a better cyclist, then suck a wheel for the rest the race or when several racers exit T1 simultaneously and the poor cyclists suck a wheel for 40km.
Personally, the IDEAL solution (if we have to live with drafting) is to put the bike leg either first or last. Safety reasons dictate that the swim should probably go first, then the bike should be last. Pat W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D. _- -_ Los Alamos National Lab -__ __- / cis: 72410,3372 /
No matter where you put the bike leg- if there is drafting, no aero bars – plain & simple Jim Harris
No matter where you put the bike leg- if there is drafting, no aero bars – plain & simple Jim Harris I’m going to have to second this idea. I’ve seen some very ugly crashes in pack situations even with experienced rider on standard race bikes. The thought of what would of happened to a group with less racing experience and aero bars is very frightening. Call be a retro-grouch if you want, but I think time trial bikes should only be used in time trials. Steve (who has time trial bars on 2/3’s of his bikes)
stuff deleted. This is a good point, the pack would still be there, but the guy who really wants to win will have to make a break, maybe breaks will be made in pairs or threes, but ideally these smaller packs would break up too. tim
IDEALLY!!! even the smaller packs wouldn’t form at all and no drafting would exist ever, in Triathlon. Packs form when weaker riders hammer to catch up a small distance behind a better cyclist, then suck a wheel for the rest the race or when several racers exit T1 simultaneously and the poor cyclists suck a wheel for 40km. I think e should re-establish a ban on drafting and shoot offenders with a paint ball gun, they would then be sent down a separate chute at the end of the bike and become filler for hot dogs. Well trained marshalls with balls would help a little too. In the old days purgerers would have a P branded into their toungues! How about we Tattoo a D on the forehead of people caught drafting for a second time. If the death penalty is good enough for murderers, how about drafting weenies getting the same fate? I bet drafting would cease to exist at races in a hurry. Just some random musings….. I have a headache and am not a happy camper today (could ya tell?) TriDork
Clever idea. How would transition times fit in to the calculations? Joel
Good start, but I have a couple things on my mind about it. If you aren’t the best cyclist, wouldn’t it still be advantageous to stay in the pack? The pack tends to go faster than individual cyclists, so a better time would be achieved by staying that way. Would this now make the sport a test of who is the best at a single sport and can hold his/her own in the others? For example your IMH calculations. Just wondering. Jason
I pre-posted this to TRI-DRS, apologies for bandwidth wastage. This is confusing, BUT PLEASE bear with me….. I’ve been thinking (uh-oh) about the thorny problem of drafting, TV the olympics and what its doing to triathlon. Maybe we need some compromise initially, before we get our ‘own’ way (tee hee). It seems that a TT style triathlon (staged interval starts) is a non-starter (don’t ask me why and no pun intended) I’ve got an idea that may help, tho’ I’m still thinking it thru, so it may help to get more opinions… I got some opinions and corrections from the guys on TRI-DRS, so thanks where due, these are however MY opinions, so feel free to blow me out of the water. The point I’m trying to attack here is that the ITU want drafting ‘cos they think (a) its unenforcable (b) packs give more excitement. In my opinion (a) is tricky , yes, and (b) is caused by only watching the highlights of the TdF. If we can reduce or remove the advantage of drafting for the competitor (who basically just wants to win), then the problem cures itself. What we need is a scheme that punishes complacency. If points were awarded after each discipline, as a ratio of performance for the, for the sake of argument, Olympic record in that discipline, (I realise in the Olympics for example, this would mean that Triathlon would have to be after the 40km TT and use that same course), in the same way that decathalon is, then there would be a major incentive for competitors to go balls-out on each leg of the race. points = olympic record/personal time * 1000 This would encourage an aggressive bike leg, as good cyclists are more likely to be close to the OR on a 40K TT, and hence scoop big points, than a good runner is to be close to the 10K OR and catch up points. some examples…. (with guestimated ORs) swim: 14min OR, 18min tri swim 14/18 * 1000 = 778 bike 54min OR, 57min tri swim 54/57 * 1000 = 947 run 26min OR, 31min tri run 26/31 * 1000 = 867 Assuming identical swims, if you cruise the bike, say 62min vs. some racing snake who splits 57min, and runs a 31min 10K (1814 pts), you have to run fast enough to get 943 points (1814 – (54/62 *1000)), which is a 27.5 min 10K! Hence there is no advantage in cruising the bike in a big pack, the advantage is in a breakaway…. All these calculations make good TV commentary material, and best of all, the first guy past the post is most likely will win ! Even better, there is No benefit from cruising in the pack, everyone in the pack will have to hammer. It has been pointed out that using this method for this years Ironman, Rainer Mueller would have just beaten Hellreigel. But I suspect that, (a) this is no bad thing, and (b) the race leader would be more likely to be the lead points scorer on a short course race like 1.5/40/10. I’m sure I’ve missed something, so critiscism greatfully accepted……. tim
I have a Timex Ironman Triathlon, 100 lap indiglo. The light didn’t work very well when I got it home, so I returned it and got a new one. Now, it works great! 3-4 seconds of even pressure, it beeps, and it’s in night mode. If yours doesn’t go in to night mode easily, return it for a new one. Russ
Just purchased one of the Timex watches with the IndiGlo lighting feature. The directions say that a "Night-Mode," a mode that once activated will turn on the light for three seconds when ANY button is pushed, can be turned on by pushing and holding the IndiGlo button for three seconds. It doesn’t work for me. I noticed another error in the instructions regarding setting alarm with start/stop button when actually the lap/reset button is the enabling switch. Anybody detect and solve this little problem with the Night-Mode? Thank you. Sean
Just purchased one of the Timex watches with the IndiGlo lighting feature. The directions say that a "Night-Mode," a mode that once activated will turn on the light for three seconds when ANY button is pushed, can be turned on by pushing and holding the IndiGlo button for three seconds. It doesn’t work for me. (clip, clip)..Anybody detect and solve this little problem with the Night-Mode? Thank you. SeanHmm. That mode works fine on my 50 lap indiglo. Be careful that you are
maintaining even pressure for the entire 3 seconds. mike
Just purchased one of the Timex watches with the IndiGlo lighting feature. The directions say that a "Night-Mode," a mode that once activated will turn on the light for three seconds when ANY button is pushed, can be turned on by pushing and holding the IndiGlo button for three seconds. It doesn’t work for me.
Sean, My Indiglo Ironman Triathalon works fine, including the "Night-Mode" aspect of the watch. FYI, mine is about seven months old, and I noticed that some new ones operate slightly differently than mine. If yours doesn’t work, take it back and get it replaced. Mike
you have to hold the indiglo button for more then three seconds. About 5 to 10 sec. you will here a beep when the night mide is activated. and to get it off hold the button down again for about 5 sec. or just leave it on untill it automaticully shuts off.
Here’s a great event for boaters, bikers, runners, and just plain duffers: Mill City Triathlon Sponsered by a small Oregon town attempting to revive economically after the downturn in the timber industry. A interesting and challenging course. 10.7 mile bike course over trails and logging roads, past stands of tall firs, creeks and a small waterfall. Includes several steep uphill grinds. 5 mile kayak run through class I-II+ whitewater on the scenic North Santiam river. Includes drops through Mill City Falls, Spencers Hole, Little Spencers rapids, and Carnivore. 10 mile run if you have any energy left from the first two events. Classes for men/women/teams and hardshell/softshell. For more info write: North Santiam Chamber of Commerce P.O. Box 222 Mill City, OR 97360
:I’m not Bruce, but I’ll throw out a few possible rules (1994) that might :disqualify the recumbent that QRman is thinking of designing. :Note that at least in 1994, the front-center rule is still in effect :for Tri-Fed. I think the most likely candidate for ruling it :illegal is 5.11c, unless you decide to create an extremely long :saddle, in which case 5.12 could probably be used. : — John Well I am Bruce, and John has nailed this one on the head. Also of note: Due to the passage of NAFTA, Some tri Fed rules had to be changed, one that may be of interest, Dan, states: All bicycles manufactured by a company with a mexican name must be wholly produced in Mexico , penalty will be DQ. I just realized that giant sucking sound is actually triathletes replenishing fluids with a HED water fairing…,oops I mean bottle. Bruce Platt
<<I’m not Bruce, but I’ll throw out a few possible rules (1994) that might <<disqualify the recumbent that QRman is thinking of designing. <<Note that at least in 1994, the front-center rule is still in effect <<for Tri-Fed. I think the most likely candidate for ruling it <<illegal is 5.11c, unless you decide to create an extremely long <<saddle, in which case 5.12 could probably be used. I have not paid too much attention to the rulebook lately, except to note that it has always been a policy of Tri Fed to mirror the UCI rulebook, a policy which I note (gladly) is no longer followed. I remember when Bob Langan and I were discussing the nose of the saddle thing, specifically a requirement regarding how far IN FRONT the nose could go. The old UCI rulebook said that if you drew parallel vertical lines from the nose of the saddle and from the bottom bracket, those lines could be no further than 15cm apart. Back in 1989, I think it was, I brought Liz Downing to the Record Challenge in Moriarty, NM and she set the new national record for 40km. They didn’t measure the bike, but I was there with a hacksaw just in case, as the nose of her saddle protruded a couple of cm in front of the BB. I had had heated discussions with the "then" person in charge of the rules for USCF, who insisted that the rule MEANT 15cm BEHIND the BB, but could not go in front of the BB. I asked him which OTHER unspoken rules there were that I didn’t know about, at which point he went a little ballistic. He got fired a few months later. Bob Langan in his wisdom recommended that proper rules go in the book, so that there would be no question. It is therefore an easy "riddle" to figure out why a recumbant wouldn’t be legal in triathlon, however a similar question posed for an audience of USCF racers would be much more difficult to answer, with their rulebook as it currently is. QRman
<<Recumbents are not legal, the design does not fit the dimensions <<stipulated in the rule book. A ruling that I have used as a head official <<is that they may also be a safety hazard ( not trying to be anti recumbent <<) but being low they could become a hazard if a pack should form. Because BDPLATT has a good sense of humor and I feel like being a stinker, here goes: 1. What exactly do you mean "recumbant" (both front and rear)? Caution, though, when you answer, that you don’t describe a bike with aero bars. 2. Which rule disallows recumbants? Obviously there is the 2 meter rule (overall length). But some recumbants might fit inside that. The UCI has, I believe, thrown front/center out altogether as a description criterium of a bike, as has the USCF. Also, I think I’ve seen rear recumbants which would have no trouble with any front/center rule. 3. What if I had a recumbant, and it met all stated rules, and I demonstrated that I could ride it with at least the same amount of skill as another person could ride a standard bike? QRman