Sport Triathlon Wiki

Walking. Wow.

admin — Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

walking in your home. I like Leslie Sansone’s walking videos. She has several and they go from an easy one mile up to a challenging four mile walk. A person not only gets the benefits of walking but gets some additional exercise involving the use of the arms. These videos are good for anyone of any size, age, or any physical condition who is able to walk. She gives good instructions, and the walking consists of four basic steps so it is easy to follow. (I hate exercise videos that only the pros and advanced exercisers can follow!) She has a website and you can check out the videos at Amazon.com. I like the videos because I can stay inside and not have to worry about weather conditions or make a special effort to dress to go out. Since there just doesn’t seem to be any good reason to put off walking with this system, I get it done almost every day. Her book suggests taking a rest one day a week.

Response:

[snipped] So on the way home from work I stopped at Walmart and got a cheapo pedometer, under 4 bucks. I got home at midnight (I work second shift), changed clothes, strapped on my new pedometer, and headed towards downtown De Soto. I planned to walk about a half hour, and hoped to get over a mile in.

I’m glad you enjoyed the walk! You probably already do, but I thought it was worth reiterating: if you are walking after midnight (great Patsy Cline song )…please take the basic precautions. Both to make sure drivers can see you *and* keeping yourself safe. — Asia

Response:

Annie, my DH, who is quite a bit overweight, has had a similar experience. He had been doing the elliptical trainer at the gym for a couple of years (choosing this over the treadmill because of knee issues). He’d gotten to where he could do it for quite a long time at a fairly high intensity level. But when we went on vacation he found that he couldn’t walk far at all without becoming tired, sweaty, and winded. Apparently his body had just become used to the elliptical, but not to walking. And I think walking is more sensitive to how much weight you’re carrying, also. I think walking, even at a moderate distance, is a great idea for you (and for DH ). All exercise is good, and doing this will help you build up more tolerance to walking. (I haven’t read anyone else’s responses yet; perhaps I’m being redundant.) Chris 262/130s/130s

Response:

snip So, is walking for this amount of time and distance likely to be doing me any good, or am I just being overly hopeful? –Keep walking! It is the best form of exercise because almost anyone can

do it and the only equipment needed is a good pair of walking shoes. If you stick with it and and do it on a regular basis it will help you to shed those unwanted pounds and get much better physical condition. I know it sounds as though I am doing commercials for Leslie Sansone, but I totally sold on her walking videos and book. The book shows person after person who lost up to 150 pounds by going on a sensible diet and using her walking videos. The best thing is her program is not too difficult for people of larger size to do. The beginning stuff is very easy and you work up to higher levels at your own pace. Yes, Annie, the walking will do you a world of good. Keep walking! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Annie 258/219.5/140 Standing at 5 foot 4. 38.5 pounds lost. 79.5 left to go. Started February/07/05

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My knee has been bothering me this past week, more so when I use my elliptical. When I first started this new WOL I would have just taken a week or two vacation from using it. Now, however, I found myself very reluctant to not do some sort of exercise. Even though I hate going outdoors, I decided that perhaps going for a nice brisk walk might be a good thing. So on the way home from work I stopped at Walmart and got a cheapo pedometer, under 4 bucks. I got home at midnight (I work second shift), changed clothes, strapped on my new pedometer, and headed towards downtown De Soto. I planned to walk about a half hour, and hoped to get over a mile in. Well, I did walk for about 35 minutes. If my cheapo pedometer is to be believe, I came in at just under a mile and half. But I have to say, I was honestly surprised at how hard it was to walk that long in one stretch! I’ve been staying on my elliptical for about 40 minutes a day, and I thought that walking would be much easier than that. But it seemed that somehow I was working different muscles somehow or something, because I could really feel it in calves by the time I got home. I was also sweating and out of breath a bit. Nothing I couldn’t handle, you understand. But it really did feel like I was doing something. I didn’t really realize that walking would affect me so much. It didn’t seem to aggravate my knee like the machine does. I’ll be taking a walk tomorrow when I get home as well. So, is walking for this amount of time and distance likely to be doing me any good, or am I just being overly hopeful? —

Hi, Annie. I spent the last winter doing step aerobics and Leslie Sansom (sp) Walk Away the Pounds videos. Both types of video work can be very strenous (like the eliptical trainer). When I got to walking outside, it definitly made different muscles sore! Doing different types of activites is called cross training, and is, I believe, very benificial for total body fitness. Keep up the walking! It’s great to be outside and see new things, and then when you and friends want to do something that involes walking you’ll be prepared. Good luck! Heidi 262/199/198 Losing 100lbs. 1 lb. at a time. Start 10/24/04 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Annie 258/219.5/140 Standing at 5 foot 4. 38.5 pounds lost. 79.5 left to go. Started February/07/05

Response:

Now that you’ve got a pedometer methinks it might be time for another pedometer challenge! — the volleyballchick That sounds like a good idea! Maybe we could add a odometer challenge for the bikers in the group, too. I need to get riding if I’m going to make 2000 this year. I haven’t even hit the half way mark yet Beverly

Sounds like an excellent idea. — the volleyballchick

Response:

Now that you’ve got a pedometer methinks it might be time for another pedometer challenge! — the volleyballchick

That sounds like a good idea! Maybe we could add a odometer challenge for the bikers in the group, too. I need to get riding if I’m going to make 2000 this year. I haven’t even hit the half way mark yet Beverly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

My knee has been bothering me this past week, more so when I use my elliptical. When I first started this new WOL I would have just taken a week or two vacation from using it. Now, however, I found myself very reluctant to not do some sort of exercise. Even though I hate going outdoors, I decided that perhaps going for a nice brisk walk might be a good thing. So on the way home from work I stopped at Walmart and got a cheapo pedometer, under 4 bucks. I got home at midnight (I work second shift), changed clothes, strapped on my new pedometer, and headed towards downtown De Soto. I planned to walk about a half hour, and hoped to get over a mile in. Well, I did walk for about 35 minutes. If my cheapo pedometer is to be believe, I came in at just under a mile and half. But I have to say, I was honestly surprised at how hard it was to walk that long in one stretch! I’ve been staying on my elliptical for about 40 minutes a day, and I thought that walking would be much easier than that. But it seemed that somehow I was working different muscles somehow or something, because I could really feel it in calves by the time I got home. I was also sweating and out of breath a bit. Nothing I couldn’t handle, you understand. But it really did feel like I was doing something. I didn’t really realize that walking would affect me so much. It didn’t seem to aggravate my knee like the machine does. I’ll be taking a walk tomorrow when I get home as well. So, is walking for this amount of time and distance likely to be doing me any good, or am I just being overly hopeful? — Annie 258/219.5/140 Standing at 5 foot 4. 38.5 pounds lost. 79.5 left to go. Started February/07/05

Response:

I did know that walking is good exercise, I didn’t phrase my final question that well. What I meant is, "is just walking for a half hour doing any good", not "does walking in general help". I really was pretty tired by the time I got home, so I guess I was doing something good for my body.

Yes, walking for 1/2 an hour does some good. Strolling slowly for 15 minutes does some good. Anything that has you off the couch and moving does some good. But you knew that, already. So that makes me go back and reread your post to figure out what your real issue is. First off, congrats on making enough of a lifestyle shift so that you craved exercise. It’s a great path to be on, and shows progress in problem solving. Used to be you’d use a sore knee as an excuse, now you see it as an opportunity to try a different activity. Atta girl. It’s an important life skill (and the one driving my learning to swim last fall and learning to cycle this spring.) Secondly, yes, this is progress even though it looks little. You really do need to start new things in manageable bites. For example, I went to a triathlon training clinic two weeks ago that had me swimming 1/4 mile, cycling 7.5 miles and running 2 miles. I came home and slept the rest of the day and then blew off the next class. It was just too much to start with. Yes, I could do it, but it was just so punishing that I’m avoiding doing it again. Much better to go for a pleasant half hour walk and have it morph naturally into a 10K run someday. Be kind to yourself and trust that it’s the right plan. I don’t share the worry-wart idea that walking in the dark is bad. I live in the North and it’s dark half the year during recreational times. I think you’ve got to weigh relative risks. The risk of NOT exercising is in the balance, too. I did get a Leslie Sansone walking tape once and liked it for music to walk by, but I tend to only use my headphones when I’m running off trail in the park during the day. Dally

Response:

[snipped] I don’t share the worry-wart idea that walking in the dark is bad. I live in the North and it’s dark half the year during recreational times.

If you’re referring to my post, walking in the dark wasn’t the part that sent up a red flag. Walking after midnight did. I live where, in the fall, it will be dark by 5 PM. So, I’m not really hand-wringing over outside being dark. I’m a little more familiar with the OP’s area after her reply today…but I still thought it was worth a few minutes’ time to be reminded that it’s better to be safe than sorry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Zapata She was wearing headphones while walking home after midnight. — Asia

Response:

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. The town I live and walk in is pretty small, population less than 7000, and we’re not really a route to get to any other cities or whatever. The whole I time I was walking last night, I saw a total of about 5 cars, and this was walking down Main Street. I could easily hear the cars well before I could see them. I am wearing light colored clothing just in case, and the route I take is pretty well lit by streetlights, and I can be on sidewalks for the majority of the way. Nothing is 100% safe, of course, but I believe the risks here are pretty minimal. I’m not really into the idea of buying exercise videos, however good they might be. I might be needless stubborn on this issue, but I really believe I have to find things that I can do on my own if I am going to be doing them for the rest of my life. I can see myself taking daily walks forever, but not popping in a tape and following the instructor. I am glad to hear that I might not be imagining the "different muscles than the elliptical" theory. I thought that leg exercise was leg exercise pretty much, at least when it came to things like running, walking, using the elliptical, or even swimming. Now that I know better, even when my knee heals I will continue to walk part of the time instead of just relying on the machine. I really do want to have more "real life situations" endurance! I did know that walking is good exercise, I didn’t phrase my final question that well. What I meant is, "is just walking for a half hour doing any good", not "does walking in general help". I really was pretty tired by the time I got home, so I guess I was doing something good for my body. — Annie 258/219.5/140 Standing at 5 foot 4. 38.5 pounds lost. 79.5 left to go. Started February/07/05

Response:

As others have said, walking indeed is useful exercise and you have already recieved some good responses. The only things I can add is to consider proper footwear especially if you are having knee troubles and don’t be too concerned with keeping a fast pace. If you are feeling out of breath it is OK to slow down a bit and you will still be getting useful exercise. Most of the time, you should be able to carry on a comfortable conversation (speaking in complete sentences) while you walk. — Matthew Slow and steady wins the race.

Response:

I think walking outside is more intense because of the variation……hills, things to step around or over, speed, etc. I love the WATP videos but I think walking outside is more enjoyable and seems to get me in shape faster. Unfortunately doing a lot of outdoor walking isn’t an option for me where I live. Keep up the good work and I second what other posters have mentioned, stay safe! Wendy

Response:

As others have said, any exercise is good exercise. I use my elliptical but also walk quite a bit. They do require different muscle groups though I bought an elliptical because it was less weight bearing. My DH doesn’t care for it so we’re planning to get a treadmill this year once we can figure out where to put it. Now that you’ve got a pedometer methinks it might be time for another pedometer challenge! — the volleyballchick

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would not go out at night in questionable areas, wearing some ridiculous sports clothes and hand weights. Headphones. No headphones. At night, or in areas where you might be alone (city park, etc.) Unfortunately, women are at much greater risk of attack. Why would a criminal attack a male runner? Unlikely he’s carrying a wallet or money. Unfortunately, there are reasons to bother a woman, regardless of how she carries herself or "refuses to be a victim." Ilene B "been there/done that"

I live in the middle of an urban area and know how to take care of myself. Do not have fear. Predators smell fear, as easily as you and I breathe. If you have fear, you subject yourself to being a target. If you don’t think you can rid yourself of that fear, then think of the worst bf you ever had and what he did to really piss you off. Get mad and look it. Walk down the street muttering loudly to yourself or singing. Have a conversation with yourself. Nobody wants to bother a pyschopath. Don’t carry valuables with you. Don’t be meek and girly. Being cutesy will hurt you. Carry yourself like you know exactly what you’re doing and where you’re going. I wear death metal t-shirts when I go running and walking, especially at night. My Cannibal Corpse "Butchered at Birth" t-shirt scares a lot of undesirables. Look around, a lot if you must. Switch the sides of streets often and never walk or run the same way two times in a row. Martha

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snipped] I don’t share the worry-wart idea that walking in the dark is bad. I live in the North and it’s dark half the year during recreational times. If you’re referring to my post, walking in the dark wasn’t the part that sent up a red flag. Walking after midnight did. I live where, in the fall, it will be dark by 5 PM. So, I’m not really hand-wringing over outside being dark. I’m a little more familiar with the OP’s area after her reply today…but I still thought it was worth a few minutes’ time to be reminded that it’s better to be safe than sorry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Zapata She was wearing headphones while walking home after midnight.

You seriously equate a punk rocker partying in a bar until 2:30 AM in downtown Seattle with Annie going walking in a town of 7000 where she sees no cars? How could I possibly have called you a worry-wart? Dally

Response:

How do you like working the 2nd shift? How long you been doing it? I like it.

What are your hrs on second shift? 3pm till midnight? What?

Response:

How do you like working the 2nd shift? How long you been doing it? I like it. Less traffic to deal with to and fro (I have a 45 minute drive). I

Cool I’m in Hannibal MO You are in DeSoto, correct?

Response:

How do you like working the 2nd shift? How long you been doing it?

I like it. Less traffic to deal with to and fro (I have a 45 minute drive). I got used to odd hours pretty quickly, like within a week or two. I’ve been doing it since September, around the first week if I remember right. What do you do?

Factory work. I work for Sinclair and Rush, who produce vinyl products such as hose guards, mop handles, and various vinyl caps for metal parts. I work in the finishing department, where we screenprint logos and cut and slice the parts as needed. I’m thinking abt going to 2nd myself hence the questions

Good luck! — Annie 258/219.5/140 Standing at 5 foot 4. 38.5 pounds lost. 79.5 left to go. Started February/07/05

Response:

I live where, in the fall, it will be dark by 5 PM. So, I’m not really hand-wringing over outside being dark. I’m a little more familiar with the OP’s area after her reply today…but I still thought it was worth a few minutes’ time to be reminded that it’s better to be safe than sorry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Zapata She was wearing headphones while walking home after midnight.

Well, yes, I guess that could be a concern also. However, I do live in a very low crime area. And the crime we do have centers more around meth lab activity rather than random assaults and attacks. De Soto Mo. simply isn’t that scary of a place. We don’t even lock our doors. Yes, there is a possibility that I might be nabbed and attacked. But the chances are very, very low. There just isn’t that many people around. Aside from cars, which I can see coming from a distance, the only person I saw was on a bike, and that was at a distance. I was the only foot traffic. Like I said, it’s hard to feel 100% safe. There are risks involved with just about everything. Still, the chances here are small enough that I don’t think they warrant my staying inside at night, cowering in home being too afraid to go for a walk down Main Street. — Annie 258/219.5/140 Standing at 5 foot 4. 38.5 pounds lost. 79.5 left to go. Started February/07/05

Response:

Anything that has you off the couch and moving does some good. But you knew that, already. So that makes me go back and reread your post to figure out what your real issue is.

I think I have a tendency to have an irrational worry that I’m just not doing enough, or not doing it in the right way. I need to remember that I have this trait when I ask questions like that. It’s hard, but it is sensible. You’re suggestion about doing things in manageable bites is right on target, I think. — Annie 258/219.5/140 Standing at 5 foot 4. 38.5 pounds lost. 79.5 left to go. Started February/07/05

Response:

I would not go out at night in questionable areas, wearing some ridiculous sports clothes and hand weights.

Headphones. No headphones. At night, or in areas where you might be alone (city park, etc.) Unfortunately, women are at much greater risk of attack. Why would a criminal attack a male runner? Unlikely he’s carrying a wallet or money. Unfortunately, there are reasons to bother a woman, regardless of how she carries herself or "refuses to be a victim." Ilene B "been there/done that"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snipped] I don’t share the worry-wart idea that walking in the dark is bad. I live in the North and it’s dark half the year during recreational times. If you’re referring to my post, walking in the dark wasn’t the part that sent up a red flag. Walking after midnight did. I live where, in the fall, it will be dark by 5 PM. So, I’m not really hand-wringing over outside being dark. I’m a little more familiar with the OP’s area after her reply today…but I still thought it was worth a few minutes’ time to be reminded that it’s better to be safe than sorry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Zapata She was wearing headphones while walking home after midnight.

Scary. I’m one of those sickos that go walking before the crack of dawn and while I live in a fairly crime-free area (just the occasional drunk driver or teenager doing something stupid), I sometimes think about the potential of something bad happening. The one time I saw a car cruising waaaaay too slowly behind me, it turned out to be a cop. — Robyn 164/152/130

Response:

I got home at midnight (I work second shift),

How do you like working the 2nd shift? How long you been doing it? What do you do? I’m thinking abt going to 2nd myself hence the questions

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the feedback, everyone. The town I live and walk in is pretty small, population less than 7000, and we’re not really a route to get to any other cities or whatever. The whole I time I was walking last night, I saw a total of about 5 cars, and this was walking down Main Street. I could easily hear the cars well before I could see them. I am wearing light colored clothing just in case, and the route I take is pretty well lit by streetlights, and I can be on sidewalks for the majority of the way. Nothing is 100% safe, of course, but I believe the risks here are pretty minimal. I’m not really into the idea of buying exercise videos, however good they might be. I might be needless stubborn on this issue, but I really believe I have to find things that I can do on my own if I am going to be doing them for the rest of my life. I can see myself taking daily walks forever, but not popping in a tape and following the instructor. snip

Go with whatever works for you. The important thing is to keep exercising. Lots of people like videos or there wouldn’t be such a vast selection offered. I consider using a video as doing it on my own even if I am following an instructor because a video is more or less just another piece of equipment like a rope, bike, or weights. Since no other people are physically present when I exercise, I consider it as doing it by myself. This is just another example of one size doesn’t fit all. You found something that is working for you and that’s great. No point in changing what is working for you. Enjoy your walks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Annie 258/219.5/140 Standing at 5 foot 4. 38.5 pounds lost. 79.5 left to go. Started February/07/05

Response:

I'm back in need of support

admin — Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Quoting Dally: [snippage here and there] It’s time to power up my weight loss to a new stage. Three years ago I weighed 244 pounds and wore a tight size 22 clothes. I started exercising, then doing a Zone/Body for Life/South Beach type diet, then putting it all together into Body for Life challenges. I lost 80 pounds and got to my goal of 23% body fat and size 12 pants. I am at the long-term goal weight I want to maintain for the next few years and I’m not having any particular problem maintaining it, but now I have a new, short-term goal of getting past "healthy" into the "athletic" zone. I want to get below 20% body fat. But I can’t seem to get out of the 162-165 range I’ve been teetering in for a few months.

Hi, To break into the teens on bf%, what worked for me was to concentrate on the weights, not cardio, and eat a rather strict diet high in protein, low calorie, low fat, very low carb. More or less PSMFish with refeeds every week or two and some longer term sanity breaks here and there. I’d chip away at a percentage point or two, then take time off (maintaining). Rinse and repeat. Before that, I had been stuck for months in the low-mid 150’s# range (at 5 foot 6). That darned scale was barely moving, and I got fed up with continuing to pull the bandaid off too slowly, figuratively speaking. This was several years ago, and after I had already lost some fairly significant weight after dieting for a while. Since then, I’ve made further changes to body composition through more moderate means. However, I doubt a PSMF would be appropriate at this time considering your other goals (improvement and competition in endurance sports). This year I’ve been actively training for a sprint triathlon My problem is that all this activity has my appetite out of control. I don’t THINK I’m eating very crappy, but I just downed a half pound of chocolate-covered raisins I ate because I’m iron-poor and exhausted and

Well, you could have had some spinach instead. they seemed like what my body needed. Last night I had chocolate ice cream for the same reason. I’m depleted. I’m eating for energy.

That’s your fat cells talking and you already know how they like to lie to you. Having said that, when’s the last time you had a serious break, both from fat loss and constantly striving for improvements in fitness? Three years is a long time. I need to find a new way of eating so that it gives me enough energy for my day to day activities but still has me at a calorie deficit. I suspect going back to the Body for Life snack concept is a good idea,

Small frequent ‘balanced’ meals, correct? and I *know* logging on Fitday would be a good idea.

Yep. I’m open to other suggestions. My goal is to drop some more fat. Right now I’m at 127 pounds lean and 38 pounds fat and I’d like to drop the fat down to the 30 pound area, get down below 20% body fat, for my competitions in August.

You may want to focus on one goal at a time. Which is more important to you, short-term? Do you want to improve endurance-wise for your competition or do you want to lose body fat? If it’s the endurance training, just accept that you will continue to lose body fat very slowly. Not that the two are mutually exclusive long-term, but for your purposes they can conflict somewhat short-term. At least, that’s my experience. Oh, and cardio makes me absolutely ravenous as well.

Response:

So besides chocolate covered raisons and icecream, what else *are* you eating? Do you still eat 5-6 small meals a day? High enough complex carbs for high activity days? Do you also lift weights? I think the FitDay tracking would really be a good idea to give you the exact picture of what you currently eat (while maintaining) and how you could kick it up a notch to the next level. Dont necessarily think you need to just eat less to lose bodyfat. Reading in the articles section, ‘Metabolism’ and ‘The Truth About Stubborn Bodyfat’ plus check out what she eats/ate to lose bodyfat: http://skwigg.tripod.com/id24.html And also some interesting nutrition articles at RunnersWorld Online: http://www.runnersworld.com/category/0,5034,s6-53-85-0-0,00.html joanne

Response:

This is going to be a new phase for me. I’ve gone from fat to fit. Can I go from fit to absurdly fit?

Yes. If I were in your shoes, I would take a week or two of recovery doing stress-reducing activities. Then get back into training, simplifying as much as possible and focusing on the diet. Matthew

Response:

It’s time to power up my weight loss to a new stage. I’m not being very successful doing this on my own, so I’m coming back here because I always found this community empowering and encouraging. Three years ago I weighed 244 pounds and wore a tight size 22 clothes. I started exercising, then doing a Zone/Body for Life/South Beach type diet, then putting it all together into Body for Life challenges. I lost 80 pounds and got to my goal of 23% body fat and size 12 pants. I am at the long-term goal weight I want to maintain for the next few years and I’m not having any particular problem maintaining it, but now I have a new, short-term goal of getting past "healthy" into the "athletic" zone. I want to get below 20% body fat. But I can’t seem to get out of the 162-165 range I’ve been teetering in for a few months. This year I’ve been actively training for a sprint triathlon and mostly hanging out in the triathlon community where our days revolve around getting in 8 to 10 specific workouts a week, while still getting rest days (and managing to perform all the other requirements of daily living). I’m exhausted from my training. Tomorrow I’m running a 5K race in 90 degree weather just as a "tempo" run. (A triathlon is 1/2 mile swim followed immediately by a 12 mile bike ride followed immediately by a 5K run, so running a 5K race all by itself is just 1/3 of a race!) Whether it’s dragging my body through water, hauling me and a bike up a hill, or racing around the road for a few miles, my weight is holding me back and making me more injury prone. I need to lose MASS. My problem is that all this activity has my appetite out of control. I don’t THINK I’m eating very crappy, but I just downed a half pound of chocolate-covered raisins I ate because I’m iron-poor and exhausted and they seemed like what my body needed. Last night I had chocolate ice cream for the same reason. I’m depleted. I’m eating for energy. I need to find a new way of eating so that it gives me enough energy for my day to day activities but still has me at a calorie deficit. I suspect going back to the Body for Life snack concept is a good idea, and I *know* logging on Fitday would be a good idea. I’m open to other suggestions. My goal is to drop some more fat. Right now I’m at 127 pounds lean and 38 pounds fat and I’d like to drop the fat down to the 30 pound area, get down below 20% body fat, for my competitions in August. This is going to be a new phase for me. I’ve gone from fat to fit. Can I go from fit to absurdly fit? Dally 244/165/155

Response:

Congrats on the setting the sprint triathalon goal! I know that you will do it and do it well. I have no specific recommendations for improving your WOE but I do want you to know that I’m behind you 100%. — jmk in NC

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s time to power up my weight loss to a new stage. I’m not being very successful doing this on my own, so I’m coming back here because I always found this community empowering and encouraging. Three years ago I weighed 244 pounds and wore a tight size 22 clothes. I started exercising, then doing a Zone/Body for Life/South Beach type diet, then putting it all together into Body for Life challenges. This year I’ve been actively training for a sprint triathlon and mostly hanging out in the triathlon community where our days revolve around getting in 8 to 10 specific workouts a week, while still getting rest days (and managing to perform all the other requirements of daily living). I’m exhausted from my training. Tomorrow I’m running a 5K race in 90 degree weather just as a "tempo" run. (A triathlon is 1/2 mile swim followed immediately by a 12 mile bike ride followed immediately by a 5K run, so running a 5K race all by itself is just 1/3 of a race!) Dally 244/165/155

No advice – just wanted to let you know I think it’s fantastic you’re doing the triathlon. I think the suggestion to start using Fitday is a good one. I saw a slight gain with some foot problem the last couple of months but logging again has brought me back down to my usual weight range. I’m sure you’ll find what works for you. Beverly

Response:

Quoting Dally: [snippage here and there] It’s time to power up my weight loss to a new stage. Hi, To break into the teens on bf%, what worked for me was to concentrate on the weights, not cardio, and eat a rather strict diet high in protein, low calorie, low fat, very low carb. More or less PSMFish with refeeds every week or two and some longer term sanity breaks here and there.

She’s going to participate in a triathlon, cardio is essential. This year I’ve been actively training for a sprint triathlon My problem is that all this activity has my appetite out of control. I don’t THINK I’m eating very crappy, but I just downed a half pound of chocolate-covered raisins I ate because I’m iron-poor and exhausted and Well, you could have had some spinach instead.

Yes, or kale, or mustard greens, or sardines, or….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – they seemed like what my body needed. Last night I had chocolate ice cream for the same reason. I’m depleted. I’m eating for energy. That’s your fat cells talking and you already know how they like to lie to you. Having said that, when’s the last time you had a serious break, both from fat loss and constantly striving for improvements in fitness? Three years is a long time. I need to find a new way of eating so that it gives me enough energy for my day to day activities but still has me at a calorie deficit. I suspect going back to the Body for Life snack concept is a good idea, I’m open to other suggestions. My goal is to drop some more fat. Right now I’m at 127 pounds lean and 38 pounds fat and I’d like to drop the fat down to the 30 pound area, get down below 20% body fat, for my competitions in August. You may want to focus on one goal at a time. Which is more important to you, short-term? Do you want to improve endurance-wise for your competition or do you want to lose body fat? If it’s the endurance training, just accept that you will continue to lose body fat very slowly. Not that the two are mutually exclusive long-term, but for your purposes they can conflict somewhat short-term. At least, that’s my experience. Oh, and cardio makes me absolutely ravenous as well.

Running totally erases my appetite. I started running again and have once more, reduced my eating just because I don’t feel hungry. But swimming, swimming will make you hungrier than a sea lion in a fish tank. I swam competitively in school and could eat my parents out of house and home. Of course, at that time, it was all muscle. Martha

Response:

To break into the teens on bf%, what worked for me was to concentrate on the weights, not cardio, and eat a rather strict diet high in protein, low calorie, low fat, very low carb. More or less PSMFish with refeeds every week or two and some longer term sanity breaks here and there. I’d chip away at a percentage point or two, then take time off (maintaining). Rinse and repeat. Before that, I had been stuck for months in the low-mid 150’s# range (at 5 foot 6). That darned scale was barely moving, and I got fed up with continuing to pull the bandaid off too slowly, figuratively speaking.

Yeah, that method always worked great for me in terms of body recomposition. I guess I thought it would be enough to just exercise a ton more, but looking back I realize that was naive after all I’ve learned. I’m not after weight loss, I’m after FAT loss, and I’ve long known that endurance activities doesn’t do anything for fat loss for me. I’d just never engaged in them before to the extent I am now and I guess I’d assumed that vast quantities of endurance exercise would behave differently than minor quantities. I never really meant to stop weightlifting, it just started being harder to schedule it when it wasn’t a priority. This was several years ago, and after I had already lost some fairly significant weight after dieting for a while. Since then, I’ve made further changes to body composition through more moderate means. However, I doubt a PSMF would be appropriate at this time considering your other goals (improvement and competition in endurance sports). Last night I had chocolate ice cream for the same reason. I’m depleted. I’m eating for energy. That’s your fat cells talking and you already know how they like to lie to you.

That’s not a perspective I’ve ever considered. I always figured that my body was telling me something about its needs and I usually listen to my body. I haven’t had a leptin/ghrelin appetite problem before so I could get away with that: if I feel depleted I want iron, if I feel sluggish I want glucose or caffeine, if I feel hungry I want Good Food. Having said that, when’s the last time you had a serious break, both from fat loss and constantly striving for improvements in fitness? Three years is a long time.

Oh, I’ve taken months and months to "practice maintenance" throughout this journey. That’s why I said I was ready to take a fresh look at weight loss: I haven’t really been paying much attention to it for the past few months. I figured it’d just continue on autopilot since I have decent fueling habits and extreme exercise habits. I need to find a new way of eating so that it gives me enough energy for my day to day activities but still has me at a calorie deficit. I suspect going back to the Body for Life snack concept is a good idea, Small frequent ‘balanced’ meals, correct?

Yes. I did Body for Life challenges 7 or 8 times! A snack of a muffin or rice cake is just RONG and I know it. I’d much rather have half a muffin with peanutbutter on it. and I *know* logging on Fitday would be a good idea. Yep.

Yep… but hard to implement in real life. Food logging is fine if you’re eating known quantities of known things, but today for lunch I had maybe 1.5 ounces of orange roughy, about two tablespoons of leftover brown rice, maybe two tablespoons of Tofu Pad Thai, three or four cheese tortillinis, about a cup of leftover mixed vegetables, and 1/3 cup or so of leftover tuna noodle casserole that the kids ate yesterday (I didn’t have any then.) All of this went on a luncheon sized plate and half the plate had vegetables a quarter had fish, rice, tofu (in the Pad Thai) and a quarter of the plate had pasta. I’d estimate it at 500 calories. What’s so remarkable about this lunch is that I now actually put away small quantities of prior day’s meals rather than just finishing them off as I was cleaning up the kitchen that night. I’m open to other suggestions. My goal is to drop some more fat. Right now I’m at 127 pounds lean and 38 pounds fat and I’d like to drop the fat down to the 30 pound area, get down below 20% body fat, for my competitions in August. You may want to focus on one goal at a time. Which is more important to you, short-term? Do you want to improve endurance-wise for your competition or do you want to lose body fat?

I really want to focus on my endurance training right now, but it’s so hard to do that without wishing I weighed less. I’m really making it hard on myself by being so big in these sports. If it’s the endurance training, just accept that you will continue to lose body fat very slowly. Not that the two are mutually exclusive long-term, but for your purposes they can conflict somewhat short-term. At least, that’s my experience. Oh, and cardio makes me absolutely ravenous as well.

I really appreciate your perspective, it’s making me face the issues I’ve got with my goals not aligning very well. I see the answer to this is to try to put more weightlifting back in my life as well as cut carbs more. That tuna-noodle casserole really didn’t need to be there: it’d probably have been better to skip that and the tortellinis and go straight for a can of tuna with my veggies, bite of fish & brown rice. Oh, this is HARD. I need to log 120 miles on the bike this month, I need to do more open water swimming, and I’m planning on running a 5K race nearly every week. I need more stretching time, more food logging time, more weightlifting time and to eat less carbs. It’s so so so much! Who knew losing weight would be hard? Dally

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is going to be a new phase for me. I’ve gone from fat to fit. Can I go from fit to absurdly fit? Dally 244/165/155 I really don’t know what to say, ‘cept just keep doing what you’ve been doing, and start using Fitday–or at least journaling–again. You’re really putting us all to shame, you know. Your body transformation has been amazing, and your way of "living like a thin person" is obviously working well for you. We’d all do well to take a page from your book. I know you won’t have a problem reaching your goal–you’re too tenacious and stubborn to fail. Have fun doing it! Amy 168/117 Thanks for the kind words, Amy, but there are half a dozen others here who got to goal before me, you included. Dally

It’s your dedication that I admire–I wish I felt more "up to the task" when it comes to goal setting and follow through. Look what you’ve accomplished–that’s far different from reaching a goal and being content just staying there. You’ve set and met many goals, and you’re still setting that bar just a little higher. Me–I set that bar higher and then try to ignore it. Fer instance, I recently joined a "walking to running" class, the goal of which is to prepare one to run a 5k. And while I enjoy the class and have no problem keeping up, I find myself inventing reasons to slack–now why would I do that? And why is my brain hell-bent on decreasing my motivation rather than boosting it? That’s a part of my psyche I need to explore. Ugh. Another goal. Amy

Response:

I’m depleted. I’m eating for energy. I need to find a new way of eating so that it gives me enough energy for my day to day activities but still has me at a calorie deficit. I suspect going back to the Body for Life snack concept is a good idea, and I *know* logging on Fitday would be a good idea. I’m open to other suggestions. So besides chocolate covered raisons and icecream, what else *are* you eating? Do you still eat 5-6 small meals a day? High enough complex carbs for high activity days?

Good questions. I have to sit down to think about this. Yesterday I ate a half of a 100% whole wheat bagel with a smear of light cream cheese and about 2 ounces of lox – that’s my normal breakfast. Then I ate two small bran muffins, maybe 70 calories each, and drank maybe 12 ounces of coffee while locked in an incredibly boring conference. I ate the muffins out of boredom. Deep, intractable boredom. (I could go on at length about how boring that conference was, but it would just add to the High Level of Boredom in the world so I won’t.) At lunch I ate a Friendly’s mandarin orange and almond salad with grilled chicken on top and without the wanton noodles. I used less than a tablespoon of the bowl of dressing they provided. In the afternoon I ate two more muffins, except now they were apple muffins because the bran muffins were gone. I refer you to the high level of boredom paragraph. At 5 pm I dashed into a McDonalds and ate one of their apple, grape and yogurt plates (I left off the candied walnuts) as a pre-race meal. At 7:15 pm I ate a banana post race. At 8:30 pm I ate a Trader Joe’s Chicken Masala with some left-over broccoli heated on top (about 400 calories) and then an hour later I had half a cup of low-fat cottage cheese. That works out to about 1800 calories, 24% fat, 57% carb and 19% protein when I tried to shoe-horn it into Fitday. (Fitday is particularly difficult when I eat two meals in restaurants.) I was aiming for 1600 calories and the extra 200 were all from junkfood muffins eaten to keep awake. Do you also lift weights?

Yes, but not nearly as much as I used to. I get in 1, 1.5 or 2 full weightlifting routines a week, usually doing a full nautilus circuit or just the upper body or lower body portions. (I try to do a full workout one day, then two split workouts, but I usually don’t get there all three times.) Using a single set on the Nautilus circuit instead of multiple sets of free weights is considerably less intensive than I had been doing, but is the reality of what happens when you pick up three new sports in addtion to weightlifting. I think the FitDay tracking would really be a good idea to give you the exact picture of what you currently eat (while maintaining) and how you could kick it up a notch to the next level. Dont necessarily think you need to just eat less to lose bodyfat. Reading in the articles section, ‘Metabolism’ and ‘The Truth About Stubborn Bodyfat’ plus check out what she eats/ate to lose bodyfat: http://skwigg.tripod.com/id24.html And also some interesting nutrition articles at RunnersWorld Online: http://www.runnersworld.com/category/0,5034,s6-53-85-0-0,00.html

Thanks, I’ll look for these links. And I started logging in Fitday when I tried to answer your question about what else I eat. Dally

Response:

This is going to be a new phase for me. I’ve gone from fat to fit. Can I go from fit to absurdly fit? Yes. If I were in your shoes, I would take a week or two of recovery doing stress-reducing activities. Then get back into training, simplifying as much as possible and focusing on the diet. Matthew

It’s scary to take a week or two off during the training season ramping up to my first triathlon. I’m considering it, though. I’ve got a minor hip injury that could do with less running at the moment, and I agree with Suze that weightlifting would be better for weight loss. Dally

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is going to be a new phase for me. I’ve gone from fat to fit. Can I go from fit to absurdly fit? Dally 244/165/155 I really don’t know what to say, ‘cept just keep doing what you’ve been doing, and start using Fitday–or at least journaling–again. You’re really putting us all to shame, you know. Your body transformation has been amazing, and your way of "living like a thin person" is obviously working well for you. We’d all do well to take a page from your book. I know you won’t have a problem reaching your goal–you’re too tenacious and stubborn to fail. Have fun doing it! Amy 168/117

Thanks for the kind words, Amy, but there are half a dozen others here who got to goal before me, you included. Dally

Response:

This is going to be a new phase for me. I’ve gone from fat to fit. Can I go from fit to absurdly fit? Dally 244/165/155

I really don’t know what to say, ‘cept just keep doing what you’ve been doing, and start using Fitday–or at least journaling–again. You’re really putting us all to shame, you know. Your body transformation has been amazing, and your way of "living like a thin person" is obviously working well for you. We’d all do well to take a page from your book. I know you won’t have a problem reaching your goal–you’re too tenacious and stubborn to fail. Have fun doing it! Amy 168/117

Response:

My problem is that all this activity has my appetite out of control. I don’t THINK I’m eating very crappy, but I just downed a half pound of chocolate-covered raisins I ate because I’m iron-poor and exhausted and they seemed like what my body needed. Last night I had chocolate ice cream for the same reason. I’m depleted. I’m eating for energy. I need to find a new way of eating so that it gives me enough energy for my day to day activities but still has me at a calorie deficit.

The more cardio I do, the hungrier I am in general. When I do too much, I’m hungry all the time, no matter how well or how much I eat. My goal is to drop some more fat. Right now I’m at 127 pounds lean and 38 pounds fat and I’d like to drop the fat down to the 30 pound area, get down below 20% body fat, for my competitions in August. This is going to be a new phase for me. I’ve gone from fat to fit. Can I go from fit to absurdly fit?

I think you have enough determination to get there, but maintaining it long-term is a whole ‘nother story. It’s a lot of work and it’s not very much fun. I don’t think it’s worth it, especially not at your age. And that’s not a dig. I’m 37 and I don’t think it’s worth it at my age either.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s time to power up my weight loss to a new stage. I’m not being very successful doing this on my own, so I’m coming back here because I always found this community empowering and encouraging.

Thanks, I bookmarked it, but most "sports nutrition" books have to do with eating bananas and Gu, not how to trim down fat while leaving LBM. Dally

Response:

Amy, I’ve been thinking about this because it feels like you ascribe too many virtues to me. I’m not achieving impossible things, I’m doing that which I decided to do and that I’m already inclined to do. It’s like finishing War & Peace: it’s a completely achievable goal if you are into long-winded pessimistic Russian fiction, but there’s no reason to subject yourself to it if you really prefer Agatha Christie mysteries. If you find yourself not liking or wanting to do something then give yourself a break: put down War & Peace and go get a book you’ll like better! (Most Harry Potter books are just as long.) I guess what I’m saying with my off-beat analogy is that you ought to honor your brain’s decreasing motivation and take the hint that you’d prefer to do something else. Maybe you will click with a volleyball team, or maybe kayaking will "float your boat". I don’t know, but you can sure have fun figuring it out! Dally

Response:

So maybe the "Dieting Tips for Active People" one might be right? — jmk in NC

Response:

At least, that’s my experience. Oh, and cardio makes me absolutely ravenous as well. Running totally erases my appetite. I started running again and have once more, reduced my eating just because I don’t feel hungry.

I’m with Martha, the activity makes a huge difference. The erg erases my appetite. Other activities give me the hungries. I’ve actually given this a lot of thought over the past few days. I generally don’t feel hungry unless I ride for more than two hours. If I am going to ride that far, I typically bring snack but that’s often just 1/2 a Clif bar and have it at about the half way point. If I don’t have anything at all, though, I start to feel ravenous by the end of the ride (not bonked, just hungry to the point that it’s distracting). It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that half a Clif bar would make a difference but it does. Also, if I do long rides several days in a row, I am really hungry *afterward* — not on day one but more like on day three. That could be what Dally is running into… — jmk in NC

Response:

Have you seen these books? http://www.nancyclarkrd.com/books/cyclistsfoodguide.asp — jmk in NC

Response:

Have you seen these books? http://www.nancyclarkrd.com/books/cyclistsfoodguide.asp Thanks, I bookmarked it, but most "sports nutrition" books have to do with eating bananas and Gu, not how to trim down fat while leaving LBM. Dally Hey Dally, That’s great that you’re getting so active! One good way to trim down while still maintaining lean body mass is to use some sort of collagen/lecithin supplementation. Since collagen proteins help build muscle and joint tissues, and both lecithin and collagen help your body process body fats more efficiently, this is an option that works for a lot of people, even those not as active as you are! (Which is most of us! ) There are a lot of collagen supplements and lecithin supplements out there… The only one I can think of that has both collagen AND lecithin is Total Trim, for which which the company I work for built a website not too long ago: www.mytotaltrim.com. A friend of mine is using Total Trim now, and apparently it’s worked great for her, even with her delicate bowel problems. Other than that, maybe some other amino acid or fatty acid supplements might help too, to help your body process fats better. Best of luck! Adam

Response:

I’m experimenting with following up swimming with weighttraining. It’s not a great way to weight-train, but it does seem to blunt my ravenous post-swim appetite. My goal is to drop some more fat. Right now I’m at 127 pounds lean and 38 pounds fat and I’d like to drop the fat down to the 30 pound area, get down below 20% body fat, for my competitions in August. This is going to be a new phase for me. I’ve gone from fat to fit. Can I go from fit to absurdly fit? I think you have enough determination to get there, but maintaining it long-term is a whole ‘nother story. It’s a lot of work and it’s not very much fun. I don’t think it’s worth it, especially not at your age. And that’s not a dig. I’m 37 and I don’t think it’s worth it at my age either.

I totally agree that maintaining sub-20% isn’t realistic, it’s my goal to hit this for competition, i.e., about 6 weeks at the end of July and through August, and then I expect the 8 pounds of thigh blubber to pile back on. Being at 23-24% is pretty good for me on most levels. I am often the most slender woman in the room these days, dumpy ass and all, except for when I show up at triathlons and then I look (and act) like a wide-load Athena. Dally

Response:

Quoting Dally: Yep… but hard to implement in real life. Food logging is fine if you’re eating known quantities of known things, but today for lunch I had maybe 1.5 ounces of orange roughy, about two tablespoons of leftover brown rice, maybe two tablespoons of Tofu Pad Thai, three or four cheese tortillinis, about a cup of leftover mixed vegetables, and 1/3 cup or so of leftover tuna noodle casserole that the kids ate yesterday (I didn’t have any then.) All of this went on a luncheon sized plate and half the plate had vegetables a quarter had fish, rice, tofu (in the Pad Thai) and a quarter of the plate had pasta. I’d estimate it at 500 calories.

If you’re serious about losing, I think you’ll find it worthwhile to estimate ‘custom foods’ to the best of your ability and keep a log. If in doubt, always round up. Be brutally honest with yourself and log everything — the cream in your coffee, the small handful of cherry tomatoes you snacked on while preparing dinner, etc. Build a basic spreadsheet or just jot it down in a notebook if Fitday gets too tiresome. I see the answer to this is to try to put more weightlifting back in my life as well as cut carbs more. That tuna-noodle casserole really didn’t need to be there: it’d probably have been better to skip that and the tortellinis and go straight for a can of tuna with my veggies, bite of fish & brown rice.

Well, that’s along the lines of what I’d recommend if you’re trying to lose fat — but I don’t know how it will work in conjunction with your endurance training. Some folks seem to adapt better than others… Oh, this is HARD. I need to log 120 miles on the bike this month, I need to do more open water swimming, and I’m planning on running a 5K race nearly every week. I need more stretching time, more food logging time, more weightlifting time and to eat less carbs. It’s so so so much!

*shrug* You seem overwhelmed and overtrained. What’s the worst that would happen if you -don’t- log 120 miles on the bike this month? Mind you, I’m not trying to talk you out of your endurance activities. Just be realistic with yourself and make sure you’re having fun with it. Rest up for a couple of weeks and refocus if you need to.

Response:

OT: For Fred: More on Hyponatremia

admin — Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I’ll copy a few of the more interesting posts on the subject of hyponatremia. This one compares the potassium level of bananas to Gatorade. More to come… R. brings up an excellent point about "Sports Drinks." Last summer, on a 3-4 hour ride in 90+ degree weather, I suffered from a nasty dehydration afterwards, even though I was drinking plenty of Gatorade. So I did what I *should* have done before chosing Gatorade as my biking drink-of-choice, I read the label. And I was shocked to see how ridiculously low this drink is in potassium and sodium. Now I don’t trust everything I read on the Internet by any means, but after hitting quite a few Recommended Daily Allowances pages, it appears that we should be consuming 1500mg of sodium and 4000 mg of potassium. Sounds a little high to me, so if someone has better numbers, please let me know. Anyway, that 8 ounce serving of gatorade has 100mg of sodium (7% of RDA, not bad) and a paltry 30 mg of potassium (0.75% of RDA). One banana has 20 times more potassium than Gatorade. After my dehydration experience, I started drinking V8’s halfway through my longer rides, as they are loaded in salt and potassium, and I never felt ill after these long rides. Granted, V8 upsets the stomach a bit when you are hammering, but it beats being delirious and having a headache for 3 days.

Response:

This interesting suggestion comes from a guy who’s a member of a local triathlon club. Instructions on how to measure your sweat! The proper way to hydrate is to replace the water that you lose to sweating. You do this by measuring your "sweat rate". This takes some doing (and parts may seem kinda funny), but in the end it is the best measure of what YOU need. -Be sure and be normally hydrated for a least a day before you are ready to measure your sweat rate -The measurement involves one hour of hard activity (in this case, cycling, but if you do something else you might want to use this method while performing that activity too since sweat rates can vary by exertion level) -Before you start, prepare a measured amount of water in your bike water bottle(s) (for example, two 20 oz. bottles or whatever you think you need for 1 hour of hard riding – take along more than needed if in doubt) -Right before you are ready to start the hour of hard activity, weigh yourself naked but holding the filled, measured water bottles so that they are included in your weight -Get dressed immediately for cycling and go for a 1 hour hard ride -On the ride, consume water as needed and as you normal would, but only from the measured bottle(s) -Right after the ride, towel yourself off (don’t take a shower, just wipe the sweat from your body) and weigh yourself naked again holding the same water bottles (even if they are empty from the ride) -Now, take the difference between your pre-ride weight and your after-ride weight – this is the net amount of your water loss per hour due to sweating. This then shows you the amount of water that you need to replace for each hour that you ride. -Water weighs about 1 pound per pint, so if you lost 1 pound during this, you should consume 1 pt (16 oz) MORE water than you did during the test to "stay even" and exactly replace your sweat. If you weighed the same after the test, then you are consuming the right amount of water. If you gained weight – well, then you probably didn’t ride hard enough! :) -You should do this test under a variety of conditions (relatively cool like now, really hot like in mid-summer, and cold like in winter). This will give you are range of water amounts per hour so that when you go for a ride, you’ll know how much to bring and drink based on the length of the ride and the conditions under which you’ll be riding. This should stay relatively stable, but you might want to retest every so often if you have major changes in your body (weight gains or losses, for example, or a lower % of body fat due to working out so much!) BUT, don’t forget that you are also losing salt with your sweat (and electrolytes). A sport drink (like Gatorade) can (and should) be used to replace your electrolyte loss and "count" as your water replacement volume. What regular Gatorade lacks though is enough salt. You can fix this by adding 1/4 tsp of salt to 1 liter of Gatorade. This is a rough approximation of your salt loss because everyone is built differently. An easy way to know if this is the right amount is to taste the salted Gatorade before you ride and also during the middle of your ride. It should taste "salty" before the ride and you shouldn’t be able to detect the salt during the ride. If it still tastes salty during the ride, use a little less salt next time. Not sure if it’s enough? Then add more salt next time until it does taste salty during the ride. Kosher salt (the big stuff like that found on soft pretzels) works great for this. Eventually you’ll establish your own hydration plan that works best for you in all situations. The hardest part about all of this is that most of us tend to drink too little on a ride, so we have to change our behavior. Avoiding both dehydration and hyponatremia is easy if you know your sweat rate.

Response:

Last one. This one contains a recipe or two for homemade Gatorade. Here’s a recipe for homemade sports drink I found on the ‘net that was apparently taken from John Forester’s "Effective Cycling" book. "Effective Cycling," chapter 24, pp 216-217: One way to make this up is to use one 2-quart envelope of unsweetened Kool-Aid (I prefer Wyler’s unsweetened lemonade powder, but it is hard to find), 8 tablespoons [1/2 cup] of sugar, and 1/2 teaspoon of salt. Mix the ingredients well, and then divide the mixed dry powder into four equal portions. Carry the dry powder with you, and use one portion per bottle. I haven’t used this exact recipe but I have used one that is similar though I believe it called for twice as much salt. One nice thing about homemade energy drinks is that you can pick whatever flavor appeals to you on that particular day so you’re more likely to drink up while you’re on the bike. Suggested variations on the recipe include using Tang or OJ for the flavoring and/or adding some protein powder for longer rides. It’s probably best to start with the basic recipe and then experiment to find out what works for you. And as always, make sure to experiment on shorter rides rather than that all-important double-century or that long-awaited PBP attempt. Those are not exactly the kind of rides where you want to try something new to see how it works for you.

Response:

Thanks for that and following info. It was on initial reading of this entire subject that I learned how devoid of some essentials are many/most sports drinks. They are basically carbos with some other things. I sweat profusely and probably need more "salts" then these drinks provide. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ll copy a few of the more interesting posts on the subject of hyponatremia. This one compares the potassium level of bananas to Gatorade. More to come… R. brings up an excellent point about "Sports Drinks." Last summer, on a 3-4 hour ride in 90+ degree weather, I suffered from a nasty dehydration afterwards, even though I was drinking plenty of Gatorade. So I did what I *should* have done before chosing Gatorade as my biking drink-of-choice, I read the label. And I was shocked to see how ridiculously low this drink is in potassium and sodium. Now I don’t trust everything I read on the Internet by any means, but after hitting quite a few Recommended Daily Allowances pages, it appears that we should be consuming 1500mg of sodium and 4000 mg of potassium. Sounds a little high to me, so if someone has better numbers, please let me know. Anyway, that 8 ounce serving of gatorade has 100mg of sodium (7% of RDA, not bad) and a paltry 30 mg of potassium (0.75% of RDA). One banana has 20 times more potassium than Gatorade. After my dehydration experience, I started drinking V8’s halfway through my longer rides, as they are loaded in salt and potassium, and I never felt ill after these long rides. Granted, V8 upsets the stomach a bit when you are hammering, but it beats being delirious and having a headache for 3 days.

Response:

Then the recipe for your own homemade sports drink might be just the thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks for that and following info. It was on initial reading of this entire subject that I learned how devoid of some essentials are many/most sports drinks. They are basically carbos with some other things. I sweat profusely and probably need more "salts" then these drinks provide. I’ll copy a few of the more interesting posts on the subject of hyponatremia. This one compares the potassium level of bananas to Gatorade. More to come… R. brings up an excellent point about "Sports Drinks." Last summer, on a 3-4 hour ride in 90+ degree weather, I suffered from a nasty dehydration afterwards, even though I was drinking plenty of Gatorade. So I did what I *should* have done before chosing Gatorade as my biking drink-of-choice, I read the label. And I was shocked to see how ridiculously low this drink is in potassium and sodium. Now I don’t trust everything I read on the Internet by any means, but after hitting quite a few Recommended Daily Allowances pages, it appears that we should be consuming 1500mg of sodium and 4000 mg of potassium. Sounds a little high to me, so if someone has better numbers, please let me know. Anyway, that 8 ounce serving of gatorade has 100mg of sodium (7% of RDA, not bad) and a paltry 30 mg of potassium (0.75% of RDA). One banana has 20 times more potassium than Gatorade. After my dehydration experience, I started drinking V8’s halfway through my longer rides, as they are loaded in salt and potassium, and I never felt ill after these long rides. Granted, V8 upsets the stomach a bit when you are hammering, but it beats being delirious and having a headache for 3 days.

Response:

5 Pound Gain Today – Is This Effort Worth It?

admin — Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi, I got on the scale at the gym (after staying away for the entire week as I felt really "fat") and it read 140. I have not been 140 in at least four months, and all of a sudden BAM, I hit 140. I started my new way of eating/living plan last October at 146lbs, and my lowest weight was in December, 133 or so. Now I’m back to 140. How did this happen? I was teetering between 136 and 135 last week. There was no way I ate an excess of 17500 calories in the last week. If any, I probably ate over 2000 more calories than I needed to eat, but that should not have been FIVE POUNDS! Perhaps it’s water retention? The thing that annoys me is that I put a LOT of time in at the gym (probably two-three hours a day, five days a week) doing cardio and weight training, but to see this five pounds come back is just disheartening. I feel like I’m putting in this huge amount of effort to get in shape and to eat well and it’s not showing anything. In addition, I have been on a "plateau" for at least three months. I was actually O.K. with being on a plateau (135) until this 140 creeped up. This sucks. I think I should just continue eating right and quit working out. If all this effort is not giving me any results, then f* this. Feeling defeated, HS. 146/140/135

Response:

Jesus Christ – you are five pounds off target – you definately worry too much!! Ignore short term fluctuations like this. Do yourself a favour and stop using weight as a metric – use % body fat instead, and only measure it once every three months or so. IMHO you are worrying yourself unduly. — Succorso

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I got on the scale at the gym (after staying away for the entire week as I felt really "fat") and it read 140. I have not been 140 in at least four months, and all of a sudden BAM, I hit 140. I started my new way of eating/living plan last October at 146lbs, and my lowest weight was in December, 133 or so. Now I’m back to 140. How did this happen? I was teetering between 136 and 135 last week. There was no way I ate an excess of 17500 calories in the last week. If any, I probably ate over 2000 more calories than I needed to eat, but that should not have been FIVE POUNDS! Perhaps it’s water retention? The thing that annoys me is that I put a LOT of time in at the gym (probably two-three hours a day, five days a week) doing cardio and weight training, but to see this five pounds come back is just disheartening. I feel like I’m putting in this huge amount of effort to get in shape and to eat well and it’s not showing anything. In addition, I have been on a "plateau" for at least three months. I was actually O.K. with being on a plateau (135) until this 140 creeped up. This sucks. I think I should just continue eating right and quit working out. If all this effort is not giving me any results, then f* this. Feeling defeated, HS.

I’m sorry you’re going through a rough time right now. I don’t know what kind of eating plan you’re following or if you are logging your intake, but that can help. I went through an experience where I rapidly gained weight even though I was exercising a lot and eating properly. The food log helped my physician decide that there was definitely a problem and though it took a while the cause was found and stabilized with medication and some diet changes. Most likely though it’s water retention like you said. Try drinking a little more water while continuing to do what normally do. A good and salty meal can easily result in a 5 lb temporary water gain. — the vbchick email goes to vbchick

Response:

It could be because of my period. February was strange in that I had a very weak pre-period period (never happened before) in the first week, and then I had my full-blast period two weeks later. It was like I had two periods in one month. I’m not sure what the possible cause would be… Yeah, but I don’t want to compare myself to the weight loss goals of others, although I am probably comparing my "ideal" body to something else (actually, not really…I live in "industry"-saturated Los Angeles and find that all the model/actress types are unreal and just gross). I just remember my eating habits from when I was over 140lbs, and I just do not want to eat like I did back in those days. I want to be healthy through eating healthfully, and I found that I did so when I was maintaining at 135lb. Generally, my eating habits are: whole grain cereal ("Nature’s Path" stuff) with soy milk and half of a banana, an orange for a mid-morning snack, either a salad with chickpeas and f/f dressing for lunch, or, if my mother prepared something (yes, I am still living at home), then it’s usually steamed vegetables or lightly stir-fried vegetables with some starch, usually grains like barley that I prepare…then I usually have 1/2 a cup of plain yoghurt and 6oz of mango for my afternoon snack, and dinner usually duplicates lunch. I sometimes snack after dinner, but it’s usually on yoghurt or fruit, nothing fatty or processed. Today I felt like giving up so I ate about two servings of tortilla chips (about 200 calories probably), and I also downed some walnuts (only a few). My breakfast was pretty normal as was my lunch (actually probably smaller than usual)…but at night I didn’t eat dinner. Instead I had those chips, a few spoonfuls of plain yoghurt, and some nuts. I just feel incredibly bloated, fat, and just generally blah right now. Maybe this is PMS. Thanks for all the support and kind words. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could be because of a period coming. Anyway, the only reason for not losing in the long run, is eating too much in relation to energy spent. That said, you are a slim person, and losing weight is harder when there is much less to lose. The big picture is that you are 140 and not 240, if your dieting accomplishes at least not making you gain weight, then it is a worthwhile effort. I think that you are doing well, maybe not as well as you would like, but better than some realistic alternatives. — 223/173.2/180

Response:

There was no way I ate an excess of 17500 calories in the last week. If any, I probably ate over 2000 more calories than I needed to eat, but that should not have been FIVE POUNDS!

No, the numbers just don’t add up. You’d need 17,500 cals ON TOP of your daily requirement of 2,000 or so to gain that much! Perhaps it’s water retention?

Water weight can be a real annoyance, especially for women. The worst thing is not gaining water weight but LOSING it, let me explain: when you put on weight overnight you know it MUST be water, if you didn’t eat 9,000 cals yesterday you can’t have gained 2lbs of fat. If you go to saunas & steam baths, go running in hot weather with your body wrapped up in plastic or take laxatives & diuretics you know what to expect, however, if you haven’t done anything like that, you don’t expect a ‘dehydration’ weight loss, so when one day you step on the scale & it shows a nice drop, you’re very happy. A couple of days later, you’ve gained back 2 or 3 lbs that won’t go away. That happened to me when I had a bit of a stomach bug, I wouldn’t even call that diarrhea but I did visit the toilet a bit more often than usual. This was enough to make my weight drop quite a bit. Being after a period, I mistook the loss for release of retained water, but the weight returned a few days later

Response:

The thing that annoys me is that I put a LOT of time in at the gym (probably two-three hours a day, five days a week) doing cardio and weight training,<

Two to three hours gymtime is asking for burnout. Overtraining wreaks havoc on ones system and can make your metabolism stallout. Other reasons for a ‘plateau’ can be that you think you are eating less/more than you really are – time to journalize your daily foods and add up the calories to make sure you are as on track as you think you are. I think I should just continue eating right and quit working out. If all this effort is not giving me any results, then f* this.

Noticed that from a following post that your eating plan is vegetarian? Grains, vegetables, fruit and yogurt is that all? You need some protein in there – combine vegetables/grains for increased protein sources, or add soy, meat substitutes etc if you are trying not to eat meats, and or more dairy products like cottage cheese would be a better choice than yogurt (most yogurts are way higher in carbs than protein because of the added sugars in them – compare ingredients btwn brands and choose a low sugar one). Increasing protein will help shutdown those carb grazings of salty snacks. And as far as not seeing results, the only place you are looking is at the scale – which lies ya know. http://skwigg.tripod.com/id12.html Why not take tape measurements and or bodyfat measurements? Two women could both weigh 130lbs, yet one having 18%bodyfat would look way different than another with 28% bodyfat – yet they WEIGH the same and also wear smaller/bigger clothing sizes. So dont fixate on the scale. Just a few thoughts you might want to ‘tweak’ over .. <

Response:

Were your two weigh-ins (135 and 140 lbs) taken under similar conditions for time of day, hydration level, etc.? Comparing any two consecutive body weight measurements is always problematic. I generally weigh myself each day, under the same conditions (first thing in the morning, sans clothes). But even with these consistent conditions, I’ve seen one-day weight "gains" or "losses" up to 4.4 lbs. It’s possible that your previous measurement of 135 lbs was "light" (perhaps you weighed yourself first thing in the morning, or were dehydrated), and your 140 lbs was "heavy" (you weighed during the day, and may have been drinking water during your workout). The reality is you’re probably somewhere in between. As others have noted, it’s not the one-day changes that are important. That said, it sound like you may be in a stall…those last few pounds can be hard to lose. Have you had your body fat measured? It’s possible that you’re losing body fat, but gaining muscle mass at about the same rate. Has your body changed how it looks in a mirror? If your body looks "fitter" than a few months ago, this may be what’s happening. If not, perhaps you need to reexamine your diet. If you’re stuck, and you’re exercising a lot, your diet is the reason. FWIW – you can get a reasonable estimate of your body fat using the "Navy" method, which only requires 3 measurements taken with a fabric tape measure. You can find it online here: http://www.he.net/%7Ezone/prothd2.html (ignore their "ideal weight" number). This method is also built into my WeightWare program (which has a free 30-day trial version on the web site). — GG http://www.WeightWare.com Your Weight and Health Diary

Response:

if your hormaones have been acting like this, they might very well be the explanation.

Response:

Hi HS, I don’t really have any advice to add, but I just wanted to say hang in there! Willow Willow Darcy Shaw from Atlantic Canada Current Loss: -18 lbs Mini Goal: lose 25 lbs by 1st week May Ultimate Goal: lose 70 lbs

Response:

Screw the scale and get out the measuring tape! What are your measurements and have they gone down? I find that on weeks I put in alot of gym time I end up not losing as much on the scale but I do lose in the measurements. My body retains water easily and lots of workouts tend to cause water retention. In other posts you’ve mentioned hormones – this also could play a huge role. So – stopp fretting over this, don’t give up on your hard work. Just ride this one out and learn to use the measuring tape as an alternate source of weight loss measuring. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I got on the scale at the gym (after staying away for the entire week as I felt really "fat") and it read 140. I have not been 140 in at least four months, and all of a sudden BAM, I hit 140. I started my new way of eating/living plan last October at 146lbs, and my lowest weight was in December, 133 or so. Now I’m back to 140. How did this happen? I was teetering between 136 and 135 last week. There was no way I ate an excess of 17500 calories in the last week. If any, I probably ate over 2000 more calories than I needed to eat, but that should not have been FIVE POUNDS! Perhaps it’s water retention? The thing that annoys me is that I put a LOT of time in at the gym (probably two-three hours a day, five days a week) doing cardio and weight training, but to see this five pounds come back is just disheartening. I feel like I’m putting in this huge amount of effort to get in shape and to eat well and it’s not showing anything. In addition, I have been on a "plateau" for at least three months. I was actually O.K. with being on a plateau (135) until this 140 creeped up. This sucks. I think I should just continue eating right and quit working out. If all this effort is not giving me any results, then f* this. Feeling defeated, HS. 146/140/135

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The thing that annoys me is that I put a LOT of time in at the gym (probably two-three hours a day, five days a week) doing cardio and weight training,<

While most of us would find it difficult to find the time to train that much, I highly doubt that it’s causing any harm (assuming adequate nutrition and rest, and a smart mix of workouts). I know a local fireman who is a dedicated amateur triathlete. He’s in his 40’s, and has competed in the Hawaii Ironman Triathlon each of the last 10 years, along with other local races. Year-round, he averages close to 4 hours per day of training. Pro athletes average even higher. So, the idea that there may be deleterious effects from training only 2-3 hours per day seems overstated IMO. GG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Noticed that from a following post that your eating plan is vegetarian? Grains, vegetables, fruit and yogurt is that all? You need some protein in there – combine vegetables/grains for increased protein sources, or add soy, meat substitutes etc if you are trying not to eat meats, and or more dairy products like cottage cheese would be a better choice than yogurt (most yogurts are way higher in carbs than protein because of the added sugars in them – compare ingredients btwn brands and choose a low sugar one). Increasing protein will help shutdown those carb grazings of salty snacks. And as far as not seeing results, the only place you are looking is at the scale – which lies ya know. http://skwigg.tripod.com/id12.html Why not take tape measurements and or bodyfat measurements? Two women could both weigh 130lbs, yet one having 18%bodyfat would look way different than another with 28% bodyfat – yet they WEIGH the same and also wear smaller/bigger clothing sizes. So dont fixate on the scale. Just a few thoughts you might want to ‘tweak’ over .. I completely agree with all the above. Great advice, IMHO.

Response:

Hi, I am not vegetarian but I don’t eat too much meat save fish and shellfish (which I love). I incorporate protein into my diet by eating lots of yoghurt (we are talking about a pound of nonfat plain yoghurt a day!), and occassionally I’ll eat cottage cheese, although I have replaced my cottage cheese intake with yoghurt (every 1/2lb of yoghurt has only 110 calories…one pound only has 220 calories!). I am also trying to eat more nuts (calorie-dense but I love them) and always consume legumes (chickpeas are my favourite).

Response:

I don’t usually measure myself, but I have found that since I started training (like Chris, I like to envision myself as an athlete, as it helps me want to give my body all the good stuff in nutrition and physical activity it needs) I have not lost much in terms of inches (I can tell because my clothes fit the same), but I have found that my stomach is a bit less flabby than it used to be (and trust me, this is my biggest trouble spot!). My thighs can probably crack watermelons and coconuts, but my stomach will always be the bane of my body’s existence. I understand why that, even though I do quite a bit of weight training (my "guns" need to be registered, hee hee!), I haven’t shown much improvement on either scale or measurements. I feel better about myself in general in that I like going to the gym and I can eat more because I do go to the gym so much, but I haven’t shown much physical improvement, considering how much time I put into it… This shows how much I’ve fallen off the horse: I had two doughnuts at an office meeting today. And I skipped my lunch (salad) and I had only cereal and some multigrain bread with balsamic vinegar for dinner. Oh, and after dinner snacks (immediate after dinner) included some peanut butter and a few bites of a cinnamon roll. Now I’m going to put my hands in the cereal box and have some more…ugh…this is bad.

Response:

Leafing through alt.support.diet, I read a message from – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Noticed that from a following post that your eating plan is vegetarian? Grains, vegetables, fruit and yogurt is that all? You need some protein in there – combine vegetables/grains for increased protein sources, or add soy, meat substitutes etc if you are trying not to eat meats, and or more dairy products like cottage cheese would be a better choice than yogurt (most yogurts are way higher in carbs than protein because of the added sugars in them – compare ingredients btwn brands and choose a low sugar one). Increasing protein will help shutdown those carb grazings of salty snacks. Hi, I am not vegetarian but I don’t eat too much meat save fish and shellfish (which I love). I incorporate protein into my diet by eating lots of yoghurt (we are talking about a pound of nonfat plain yoghurt a day!), and occassionally I’ll eat cottage cheese, although I have replaced my cottage cheese intake with yoghurt (every 1/2lb of yoghurt has only 110 calories…one pound only has 220 calories!).

Fatfree cottage cheese is a great source of protein. 1/2 lb is about 140 calories and 26 grams of protein, compared to 12 grams of protein in the same amount of yogurt. Phil M.

Response:

I meant "I *don’t* understand" I also don’t get how I ate so much over this past Thanksgiving and somehow still managed to lose weight from over the holidays. I mean, I’m not crazy heavy 5′9" and 140lbs, but I don’t feel comfortable being at 140 because that brings me back to all these really bad eating habits I used to have. When my diet improved (conscious decision), I was 135lbs and maintaining quite well. Now I just feel blah. Is this just pre-period hormones? I sure hope so. Do the other ladies out there get ravenously hungry just before their period?

Response:

Oh, I forgot to add the pound of yoghurt for dinner (about 220 calories). That brings the total to up to around 1700 calories. Not too much. I think that’d put me just ate maintenance, non? (24 years old, 5′9", 140lbs, office job, but walk about 1/4 mile to and from the subway to work, and then I walk about 4-5 flights of stairs 5-7 times a day at my office).

Response:

I’m a CARB FIEND! I don’t mind not getting protein, but I really, really adore me my carbs. And in terms of calorie tracking for today: 7AM: 3/4cup cereal with soy milk and some bananas (170 calories total) 9AM: plain doughnut (200 calories) 12PM: chocolate doughnut (240 calories) 1PM: chickpeas and cherry tomatoes picked out from salad (300 calories) 2PM: plain yoghurt with fresh mango bits (150 calories) 7PM: 1/4 cup cereal with 1/5 cup soy milk (100 calories), piece of bread with some balsamic (100 calories?), peanut butter (very small amount, probably 100 calories total), three or so bites of cinnamon roll (I am guessing 100 calories, but this is being generous) Total calories for today: (estimated) 1400-1500 This totally can’t contribute that much, can it? I am worrying now…

Response:

In answer to your last question – YES – many women get that way. And then to the rest – including your other reply about what you ate today… have you tracked the actual calories. You are eating alot of calories in what you posted. I wouldn’t doubt that would cause a gain. Also, with all the carbs, I’d be willing to bet there’s alot of water retention too. Combine that all together and you can explain your problem.

Response:

I don’t really trust these calculators. I feel like my caloric needs are lower, probably around 1200-1500 a day. I’m not sure, this is just a guesstimate. The reason is that I often eat around 1500-1600 a day and according to the elliptical machine, I burn about 700-800 calories per hour (I do about an hour of this on an almost daily basis). I also do an hour of weight lifting prior to the elliptical…so all in all I burn about a thousand calories. This leaves only about 500-600 calories that I actually consumed (and did not expend) per day, on average. This doesn’t make any mathematical sense as I don’t regularly indulge and eat over 2000 calories. (Maybe once a week, but not by much.) I exercise much more than I indulge. I create quite a bit in terms of caloric deficits per day, but it’s not showing in my weight or waistline. This is why I want to give up: the math doesn’t add up. I went to the gym today (after not having had gone since I last weighed myself) and did weight lifting (easy for me) and cardio (a pain in the ass, but a must). I usually do at least one hour of cardio/8 miles of running but today I only did 15 minutes of cardio/3 miles.

Response:

Per the Harris-Benedict formula for estimating metabolic rate, a woman of your age, height, and weight, would require: 1738 calories per day, if "Sedentary – little or no exercise" 1991 calories per day, if "Lightly Active – light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week" If you meet the second definition, then you had a deficit of around 300 calories today. Maintained over time, that should result in loss of about 0.6 lbs per week, or 2.6 lbs per month. — GG http://www.WeightWare.com Your Weight and Health Diary

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I don’t really trust these calculators. I feel like my caloric needs are lower, probably around 1200-1500 a day. I’m not sure, this is just a guesstimate. The reason is that I often eat around 1500-1600 a day and according to the elliptical machine, I burn about 700-800 calories per hour (I do about an hour of this on an almost daily basis). I also do an hour of weight lifting prior to the elliptical…so all in all I burn about a thousand calories. This leaves only about 500-600 calories that I actually consumed (and did not expend) per day, on average. This doesn’t make any mathematical sense as I don’t regularly indulge and eat over 2000 calories. (Maybe once a week, but not by much.) I exercise much more than I indulge. I create quite a bit in terms of caloric deficits per day, but it’s not showing in my weight or waistline. This is why I want to give up: the math doesn’t add up. I went to the gym today (after not having had gone since I last weighed myself) and did weight lifting (easy for me) and cardio (a pain in the ass, but a must). I usually do at least one hour of cardio/8 miles of running but today I only did 15 minutes of cardio/3 miles.

I take back what I said about being far more active . I was going by the original post with the walking 1/2 a mile and climbing some stairs — forgetting all the gym activity she does! Chris 262/130s/130s started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, I forgot to add the pound of yoghurt for dinner (about 220 calories). That brings the total to up to around 1700 calories. Not too much. I think that’d put me just ate maintenance, non? (24 years old, 5′9", 140lbs, office job, but walk about 1/4 mile to and from the subway to work, and then I walk about 4-5 flights of stairs 5-7 times a day at my office). Per the Harris-Benedict formula for estimating metabolic rate, a woman of your age, height, and weight, would require: 1738 calories per day, if "Sedentary – little or no exercise" 1991 calories per day, if "Lightly Active – light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week" If you meet the second definition, then you had a deficit of around 300 calories today. Maintained over time, that should result in loss of about 0.6 lbs per week, or 2.6 lbs per month.

I don’t recall what this formula gives me, but it seems to me it was more than I experience in practice. I weigh 135 (at 5′6"), am far more active than the OP, and I maintain at about 1600 calories per day. But I’m 56 (57 next month). I do know age is a big factor, but I’m not sure how well the formula accounts for it. Chris 262/130s/130s started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t really trust these calculators. I feel like my caloric needs are lower, probably around 1200-1500 a day. I’m not sure, this is just a guesstimate. The reason is that I often eat around 1500-1600 a day and according to the elliptical machine, I burn about 700-800 calories per hour (I do about an hour of this on an almost daily basis). I also do an hour of weight lifting prior to the elliptical…so all in all I burn about a thousand calories. This leaves only about 500-600 calories that I actually consumed (and did not expend) per day, on average. This doesn’t make any mathematical sense as I don’t regularly indulge and eat over 2000 calories. (Maybe once a week, but not by much.) I exercise much more than I indulge. I create quite a bit in terms of caloric deficits per day, but it’s not showing in my weight or waistline. This is why I want to give up: the math doesn’t add up. I went to the gym today (after not having had gone since I last weighed myself) and did weight lifting (easy for me) and cardio (a pain in the ass, but a must). I usually do at least one hour of cardio/8 miles of running but today I only did 15 minutes of cardio/3 miles.

Well, everybody’s different, and it *is* difficult to get accurate estimates for calories in and calories out. But, it also seems unlikely that your metabolism is so far out of line with the averages. It still comes down to calories in vs. calories out. Are you really sure about your calories in? Studies have consistently shown that most of us do a very poor job of estimating the calories we consume, and (surprise) we tend to underestimate the actual number. This alone could explain your stalled weight loss…you’ve clearly got the exercise program in place, so that leaves only the diet component. I also have some doubts about whether or not you’re actually burning "700-800" calories per hour and running "8 miles" on the elliptical trainer. 8 mph (7:30 per mile) running is a very fast pace for most of us. If you are breathing hard and sweating heavily, and unable to hold a conversation, you may be burning around that rate. But, exercise machines are notorious for overestimating calories burned and distance (try running 8 miles outside in one hour for comparison).

Response:

You are probably better off trusting the calculators to the gym machines. The ellipticals of all types at my gym can overestimate my calories consumption (according to my heart rate monitor) by as much as 300% Rachael 176/121/119-124

Response:

I went to the gym today (after not having had gone since I last weighed myself) and did weight lifting (easy for me) and cardio (a pain in the ass, but a must). I usually do at least one hour of cardio/8 miles of running but today I only did 15 minutes of cardio/3 miles.

If you are running 3 miles in 15 minutes, you are close to world record pace. Are you sure about this? (This would be a 12 mph setting on the treadmill.) Chris 262/130s/130s started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004

Response:

Reasons for getting fat

admin — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

While I may have gotten fat by eating too much and not exercising

I cut to the highlights for everyone’s sake.

Response:

Several years ago I swore I would never diet again. A year and five months ago I started eating low carb, not dieting as I eat all I need to keep me from being hungry, I just limit my carb intake. I have lost just shy of 60 pounds and am losing about two pounds a month. Still fat but not nearly as fat, maybe someday I will not even be fat anymore. || || While I may have gotten fat by eating too much and not exercising | |

Response:

Good for you! I wish you well for the continued effort. By the way, you might want to trim alt.trolls off of the list of groups in replies. Otherwise you are adding to their "scoreboard" Gandalf Parker

Response:

I feel that way myself. However, I keep redefining what "easy" is. Most things I think will be difficult turn out not nearly as difficult as I thought they would be. Not eating pasta, working out on a regular basis, etc. Thought it would be hard, turns out it isn’t very. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not that motivated. It has to be easy or I won’t do it. This is easy. | Wow. You have done the correct and reasonable thing, and it works. | | I’m not that patient. However, I do have a plan and expect to beat | the odds. | || Several years ago I swore I would never diet again. A year and five || months ago I started eating low carb, not dieting as I eat all I || need to keep me from being hungry, I just limit my carb intake. I || have lost just shy of 60 pounds and am losing about two pounds a || month. Still fat but not nearly as fat, maybe someday I will not || even be fat anymore. || |||| |||| While I may have gotten fat by eating too much and not exercising ||| |||

– Michelle Levin http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

Response:

I’m not that motivated. It has to be easy or I won’t do it. This is easy. | Wow. You have done the correct and reasonable thing, and it works. | | I’m not that patient. However, I do have a plan and expect to beat | the odds. |

|| Several years ago I swore I would never diet again. A year and five || months ago I started eating low carb, not dieting as I eat all I || need to keep me from being hungry, I just limit my carb intake. I || have lost just shy of 60 pounds and am losing about two pounds a || month. Still fat but not nearly as fat, maybe someday I will not || even be fat anymore. || |||| |||| While I may have gotten fat by eating too much and not exercising ||| |||

Response:

Wow. You have done the correct and reasonable thing, and it works. I’m not that patient. However, I do have a plan and expect to beat the odds.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Several years ago I swore I would never diet again. A year and five months ago I started eating low carb, not dieting as I eat all I need to keep me from being hungry, I just limit my carb intake. I have lost just shy of 60 pounds and am losing about two pounds a month. Still fat but not nearly as fat, maybe someday I will not even be fat anymore. || || While I may have gotten fat by eating too much and not exercising | |

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow. You have done the correct and reasonable thing, and it works. I’m not that patient. However, I do have a plan and expect to beat the odds. Several years ago I swore I would never diet again. A year and five months ago I started eating low carb, not dieting as I eat all I need to keep me from being hungry, I just limit my carb intake. I have lost just shy of 60 pounds and am losing about two pounds a month. Still fat but not nearly as fat, maybe someday I will not even be fat anymore. || || While I may have gotten fat by eating too much and not exercising | |

Now please consider cutting the cross posting and we’lll be real cool! — Diva ***** The Best Man For The Job Is A Woman

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel that way myself. However, I keep redefining what "easy" is. Most things I think will be difficult turn out not nearly as difficult as I thought they would be. Not eating pasta, working out on a regular basis, etc. Thought it would be hard, turns out it isn’t very. it is even easier to work out if I have a goal that is interesting and the exercise is not merely for weight maintenance. I am now running in preparation for an experimental low carb marathon, and it is interesting and does not feel like drudgery. I agree with you that having mini projects like yours make exercising much much more fun. I’m trying to learn the Total Immersion swimming method from the book. Never heard of it, sounds interesting.

Total Immersion ( http://www.totalimmersion.net/ ) is a pretty good program for people wanting to learn how to swim. It’s oriented towards athletes, but the program can be useful for anyone. I used their book and DVD to help me, and it’s made a big difference in my level of comfort and efficiency in the water. For many people, the aerobic benefits of swimming go unfulfilled, because they are so inefficient in the water that they get out of breath within a short time and have to stop. This is most often caused by poor technique – and, since water is many times denser than air, technique is important. In my case, I was flailing and kicking too much, and had poor body position. This resulted in my wasting a whole lot of energy while trying to "muscle" through the water. After using their program, I’m still not a particularly fast swimmer, but I am much more comfortable in the water, and can go for much longer distances without stopping (I used their program a couple of years ago to prepare for a triathlon that involved a 750 yard swim across a lake). GG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As for dieting, as someone who lost weight and maintained by eating less, maintaining with LC is infinitely easier. I eat what feels like a lot of food and I am not gaining. It is pleasant to have a slim life without food struggles. I thought that it was impossible. The hardest part is handling social events and, possibly, vacations. The day to dday life, is easy. Low carbing with social events, travelling, etc., is not too difficult. To do induction with social events and travelling though, is almost impossible. My diet involves not eating grains. Sometimes everything is breaded… — 223/173.4/180

Response:

I agree with you that having mini projects like yours make exercising much much more fun. I’m trying to learn the Total Immersion swimming method from the book. As for dieting, as someone who lost weight and maintained by eating less, maintaining with LC is infinitely easier. I eat what feels like a lot of food and I am not gaining. It is pleasant to have a slim life without food struggles. I thought that it was impossible. The hardest part is handling social events and, possibly, vacations. The day to dday life, is easy.

Low carbing with social events, travelling, etc., is not too difficult. To do induction with social events and travelling though, is almost impossible.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Total Immersion ( http://www.totalimmersion.net/ ) is a pretty good program for people wanting to learn how to swim. It’s oriented towards athletes, but the program can be useful for anyone. I used their book and DVD to help me, and it’s made a big difference in my level of comfort and efficiency in the water. For many people, the aerobic benefits of swimming go unfulfilled, because they are so inefficient in the water that they get out of breath within a short time and have to stop. This is most often caused by poor technique – and, since water is many times denser than air, technique is important. In my case, I was flailing and kicking too much, and had poor body position. This resulted in my wasting a whole lot of energy while trying to "muscle" through the water. After using their program, I’m still not a particularly fast swimmer, but I am much more comfortable in the water, and can go for much longer distances without stopping (I used their program a couple of years ago to prepare for a triathlon that involved a 750 yard swim across a lake).

This sounds very interesting. I have never learned to swim efficiently, and would like to. I’ll have to look into this! Thanks! Chris

Response:

Reasons for getting fat

admin — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Response:

:: I’m not that motivated. It has to be easy or I won’t do it. This :: is easy. It is good to know your limitations.

Nonr of us want to suffer hardship. Low-carb diets offer a way of losing weight over the long term without having to starve ourselves. I’m a living example. Jim 217/180/165 For now

Response:

Low carbing with social events, travelling, etc., is not too difficult. To do induction with social events and travelling though, is almost impossible.

Response:

:: I’m not that motivated. It has to be easy or I won’t do it. This :: is easy. It is good to know your limitations.

Response:

– Michelle Levin http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

Response:

While I may have gotten fat by eating too much and not exercising

I cut to the highlights for everyone’s sake.

Response:

Wow. You have done the correct and reasonable thing, and it works. I’m not that patient. However, I do have a plan and expect to beat the odds.

Response:

Worl Cup tri on TV?

admin — Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

If you think triathlete women have sexy bodies, I’ll bet your wrists were exhausted after seeing Schindler’s List.

Response:

High Con! << If you think triathlete women have sexy bodies, I’ll bet your wrists were exhausted after seeing Schindler’s List. That makes NO sense! Triathletes are hulky; Women in SL were ematiated. Not the same at all. What’s your point?~! _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!

Response:

If you think triathlete women have sexy bodies, I’ll bet your wrists were exhausted after seeing Schindler’s List.

Yeah, that was the best…

Response:

O gee, thanks, I just learned another Term for Jerk Off.

I can demonstarte about 8 different ways.

Response:

demon starte Indeed, you are a demon. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!

Response:

High Con! << If you think triathlete women have sexy bodies, I’ll bet your wrists were exhausted after seeing Schindler’s List. That makes NO sense!

That’s her M.O.

Response:

<< High Con! << If you think triathlete women have sexy bodies, I’ll bet your wrists were exhausted after seeing Schindler’s List. That makes NO sense!

That’s her M.O. Au contraire! She does, sometimes, on occasion, Usually the event itself… _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!

Response:

I was watching the chics in the tris. Has anybody noticed how small their bathing suits have gotten? All kinds of great *scenery* during these races. Hot babes! That Cindy-joe Savage gets me going. One thing I don’t understand though, why is my wrist so sore, and my eyes bloodshot after watching it?

Response:

<< I was watching the chics in the tris. Has anybody noticed how small their bathing suits have gotten? All kinds of great *scenery* during these races. Hot babes! That Cindy-joe Savage gets me going. One thing I don’t understand though, why is my wrist so sore, and my eyes bloodshot after watching it? So, like, which one are you? _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!

Response:

Which one? Neither. I’m the one watching them on TV and chokin’ my chicken.

Response:

<< So, like, which one are you?

Which one? Neither. I’m the one watching them on TV and chokin’ my chicken. < O gee, thanks, I just learned another Term for Jerk Off. _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!

Response:

Some speed progress…

admin — Thu, 07 Oct 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I am concentrating on trying to learn to run at higher speed (after being a lifelong jogger), and I am making some progress. The benchmark distance that I usually run in about 14 minutes, I ran today in just 11:24. (this distance is exactly half of my small run). The heart rate was 144, which is about 77% of MHR. It corresponds to breathing every 6 steps (3 steps in, 3 steps out). Whenever I have more time to run, I will try to run twice that and include some hills. On weekend, maybe 3x that (which took me 1:35 to run once) What I would like is to learn, now, to run long distances at approximately this speed without becoming tired too quickly.

If you’re really at 77% MHR and maintaining 3-3 breathing, you can probably hold that pace for a much longer distance. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

So how’s it feel to run at that pace? It’s not a good idea to try to run faster on all your runs, but only once a week or so at first. Then, slowly your pace on other runs will increase as you get more used to it, and the HR you can sustain daily will rise a bit over time. After you get used to "77%" range, you can bump up your weekly fast run to 80-85%. Until a solid running base is established, more formal speedwork is overkill. – Tony

Response:

I don’t have access to the Glover books right now but wouldn’t 77% MHR and 3/3 breathing be an easy run?

Response:

What has really helped increase my pace and endurance is biking. I’ve been biking afeter I run for about an hour in the gym doing hill intervals. Within 2 weeks I noticed a huge difference. I’ve been doing this and I look forward to my runs everyday now.

Response:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Ignoramus19386’s message of 07 Oct 2004: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am concentrating on trying to learn to run at higher speed (after being a lifelong jogger), and I am making some progress. The benchmark distance that I usually run in about 14 minutes, I ran today in just 11:24. (this distance is exactly half of my small run). The heart rate was 144, which is about 77% of MHR. It corresponds to breathing every 6 steps (3 steps in, 3 steps out). Whenever I have more time to run, I will try to run twice that and include some hills. On weekend, maybe 3x that (which took me 1:35 to run once) What I would like is to learn, now, to run long distances at approximately this speed without becoming tired too quickly. By the way, I am reading Bob Glover’s running book right now… So how’s it feel to run at that pace? It’s okay, I guess, but it requires me to actually remember not to slow down, to be alert. Unlike jogging, which is a pace when Irun while my mind drifts off. I felt quite good afterwards. It’s not a good idea to try to run faster on all your runs, but only once a week or so at first. That’s what Bob Glover’s book say about "tempo runs" also. My own feeling is that my running speed, 77% MHR and 3-3 breathing, is not quite as fast as those tempo runs. It is more of a reflection that I was very slow before. So, I will try to run most of the time at this speed, and see where it leads.

How did you test your max heart rate? If it’s not accurate, you can throw all these numbers out the window. If you think you know your MHR, then 77% would indeed be a good training effort. Not so easy that it doesn’t work your cardiovascular system and not so hard that you can’t sustain it. A tempo run effort would be slightly higher, in the 85 – 90% MHR range. You could talk at this effort, but not very easily. Also, your heart rate is greatly effected by conditions such as heat, wind, hills, and terrain. <75% is my easy run effort, although I don’t strictly adhere to this. 77% would fall into my long run effort (73 – 83% MHR). Recovery: <75% MHR Long Runs: 73 – 83% MHR Aerobic: 80 – 84% MHR Marathon Pace: ~84% Avg MHR (allowing for cardiac drift) Lactate Threshold: 85 – 90% MHR VO2 Max: 94 – 98% MHR Glover’s range is pretty wide. Between 70 and 85% of MHR he calls your "training heart rate." Below 70% MHR does not provide much cardiovascular conditioning. Above 85% will be too stressful for you to sustain the effort long enough to provide cardiovascular conditioning. You can also forget about heart rates and just go by the "talk" test. If you can talk comfortably but you are running fast enough to perspire, then you are at ~70% MHR. if you can talk, but not easily, you are at ~ 85% MHR. If you are out of breath, straining and unable to talk, you are over 85%. Phil M. — "If you feel bad at 10 miles, you’re in trouble. If you feel bad at 20 miles, you’re normal. If you don’t feel bad at 26 miles, you’re abnormal." -Rob de Castella

Response:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Ignoramus19386’s message of 07 Oct 2004: By the way, I am reading Bob Glover’s running book right now…

Which one? The info I posted is from "The New Competitive Runner’s Handbook." How did you test your max heart rate? If it’s not accurate, you can throw all these numbers out the window. Hm, good question. I used formula MHR = 220-age in years

Performance-based MHR tests are much more accurate. Here’s one that I’ve done that seems to be the most accurate: Warm up thoroughly. Run three high-intensity 600-meter repeats up a moderate hill, jogging back down right away after each one. If you run these 600s all out, your heart rate should be within two to three beats of maximum by the end of the third repeat. For you, the hardest part of this test is finding a 600 meter hill in Illinois. your heart rate is greatly effected by conditions such as heat, wind, hills, and terrain. It was early morning, mostly flat, 50F, no wind.

Those conditions are good. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<75% is my easy run effort, although I don’t strictly adhere to this. 77% would fall into my long run effort (73 – 83% MHR). Recovery: <75% MHR Long Runs: 73 – 83% MHR Aerobic: 80 – 84% MHR Marathon Pace: ~84% Avg MHR (allowing for cardiac drift) Lactate Threshold: 85 – 90% MHR VO2 Max: 94 – 98% MHR Thanks, I will save this info. It seems that 77% is at least in the vicinity of a "sweet spot" of speed that is sufficient to accomplish my goal (sub 4 hour marathon), but slow enough to be easily sustainable with adequate training. Do your numbers imply that I would not be even close to lactate threshold at this speed?

If I understand your question, then yes. However, my numbers are not from Glover’s book, they are from Pete Pfitzinger’s book. He puts more emphasis on specific training zones, thereby breaking down Glover’s "training range" into other zones. So in between recovery and threshold pace are long run pace, aerobic pace, and marathon pace. If you’re training with a marathon in mind, then most of your paces should be at a base building pace, putting in miles and increasing your weekly mileage and weekly long run. The pace you’re running at now seems to be a good pace based on MHR. I wouldn’t go any faster. Even seasoned marathoners do a lot of their miles at that pace. You will be surprised at how much faster you’ll get by simply running at an easy pace. This is especially true for new runners and runners just starting to increase their weekly mileage. So even if you’ve been jogging for the past 20 years, adding more miles and weekly long runs will make you a faster runner. That’s what you should be focusing on more than doing extensive speed work. If you want to play around with speed work, then I would not go any faster than a tempo run for 15 – 20 minutes once every one or two weeks. Phil M. — "If you feel bad at 10 miles, you’re in trouble. If you feel bad at 20 miles, you’re normal. If you don’t feel bad at 26 miles, you’re abnormal." -Rob de Castella

Response:

Leafing through rec.running, I read Ignoramus19386’s message of 07 Oct 2004: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I understand your question, then yes. However, my numbers are not from Glover’s book, they are from Pete Pfitzinger’s book. He puts more emphasis on specific training zones, thereby breaking down Glover’s "training range" into other zones. So in between recovery and threshold pace are long run pace, aerobic pace, and marathon pace. If you’re training with a marathon in mind, then most of your paces should be at a base building pace, putting in miles and increasing your weekly mileage and weekly long run. The pace you’re running at now seems to be a good pace based on MHR. I wouldn’t go any faster. Even seasoned marathoners do a lot of their miles at that pace. I am glad that I find myself in complete agreement with the above. This would be my training speed and increasing mileage AT THAT SPEED will be my goal, for now.

Then I think you’re on the right track. You will be surprised at how much faster you’ll get by simply running at an easy pace. This is especially true for new runners and runners just starting to increase their weekly mileage. So even if you’ve been jogging for the past 20 years, adding more miles and weekly long runs will make you a faster runner. That’s what you should be focusing on more than doing extensive speed work. If you want to play around with speed work, then I would not go any faster than a tempo run for 15 – 20 minutes once every one or two weeks. I think that for now, I won’t even bother with trying to run faster, especially since it is supposed to be hard on LC.

If you’re using a HRM, you will notice over time that your HR for a given pace will decrease and/or your pace for a given HR will increase. Phil M.

Response:

Lactate threshold is quite variable both in a given individual and among individuals. For some individuals, LT can be as high as 95% when they’re in peak form but under 85% in the off-season. In athletes just beginning their training it can be 80% of MHR or less. For example, my LT is currently is about 90% MHR, while it’s been as high as 94% when I’ve trained for more speed at shorter distances. When I started ramping up my running this Spring, my LT was about 82% of MHR. LT is much more important than MHR for setting training efforts because your race pace is directly linked not to MHR, but to LT. For example, it’s known that a marathon can be run at about 96% of LT, a 10k at 100-103% of LT depending on your time, and a 5k at upwards of 105% of LT. So the improvement of LT directly affects your potential race pace, as does it limit your ability to train at a certain level and readily recover. Note that using a HRM to determine or read LT is imperfect for all the reasons a HRM is imperfect, but when one is well-rested under similar weather conditions, HR can be used to as a measurement of LT instead a blood-lactate testing kit. – Tony

Response:

Learn to breathe! Elite runners are breathing 3 to 4 steps per breath cycle at racing pace. Are you holding yourself back by your breathing? I think you have potential to run noticably faster if you can get into better shape. If your legs get strong enough to demand more oxygen, you’ll find yourself breathing harder, and running faster. I reach my MHR by breathing 1 step in, 1 step out. 85% with 2 in/1 out, and 60-65% with 3 in/3 out. If you get in shape to do tempo runs at 3 steps per breath cycle, you’re getting somewhere… — Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am concentrating on trying to learn to run at higher speed (after being a lifelong jogger), and I am making some progress. The benchmark distance that I usually run in about 14 minutes, I ran today in just 11:24. (this distance is exactly half of my small run). The heart rate was 144, which is about 77% of MHR. It corresponds to breathing every 6 steps (3 steps in, 3 steps out). Whenever I have more time to run, I will try to run twice that and include some hills. On weekend, maybe 3x that (which took me 1:35 to run once) What I would like is to learn, now, to run long distances at approximately this speed without becoming tired too quickly. By the way, I am reading Bob Glover’s running book right now… i

Response:

Learn to breathe! Elite runners are breathing 3 to 4 steps per breath cycle at racing pace.

Yes, *at racing pace*. And the 3 is usually only in the final stretch. Are you holding yourself back by your breathing?

His breathing is similar to what I use in training. I reach my MHR by breathing 1 step in, 1 step out.

What’s your stride rate like when you adopt this breathing pattern ? It’s nearly impossible to take deep breaths like this at a fast stride rate. 85% with 2 in/1 out, and

I only do 2-1 at the end of a race or a tough workout. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Learn to breathe! Elite runners are breathing 3 to 4 steps per breath cycle at racing pace. Yes, *at racing pace*. And the 3 is usually only in the final stretch.

There is some variability here. Although I ran a 50k a few weeks ago, and they had a 30k which started a bit later. I got to see and hear the lead runner of the 30k (a 30minute 10k guy) as he came up from behind. We were both charging uphill, and he was in 3-step; when I was fast, I switched to 3 step in 5k’s and 10k’s fairly early in the race. Some fast guys can keep 4-step while racing shorter distances, but in my experience, they were exceptions. Are you holding yourself back by your breathing? His breathing is similar to what I use in training.

My uneducated guess is that you have some untapped potential if 6-step is 75% mhr for you. I reach my MHR by breathing 1 step in, 1 step out. What’s your stride rate like when you adopt this breathing pattern ? It’s nearly impossible to take deep breaths like this at a fast stride rate.

I have to be charging uphill to get my fastest HR. So my stride rate is probably only 175 or so. 85% with 2 in/1 out, and I only do 2-1 at the end of a race or a tough workout.

…just goes to show that you can go faster…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip< Recovery: <75% MHR Long Runs: 73 – 83% MHR Aerobic: 80 – 84% MHR Marathon Pace: ~84% Avg MHR (allowing for cardiac drift) Lactate Threshold: 85 – 90% MHR VO2 Max: 94 – 98% MHR Thanks, I will save this info. It seems that 77% is at least in the vicinity of a "sweet spot" of speed that is sufficient to accomplish my goal (sub 4 hour marathon), but slow enough to be easily sustainable with adequate training. Do your numbers imply that I would not be even close to lactate threshold at this speed? Lactate threshold is quite variable both in a given individual and among individuals. For some individuals, LT can be as high as 95% when they’re in peak form but under 85% in the off-season. In athletes just beginning their training it can be 80% of MHR or less. For example, my LT is currently is about 90% MHR, while it’s been as high as 94% when I’ve trained for more speed at shorter distances. When I started ramping up my running this Spring, my LT was about 82% of MHR. Sorry if I am missing something big, or something that Ishould know, but how do you measure your LT?

The lactate threshold is not a single number, but rather it’s an area of effort where the pace becomes too high for the energy supply system to work entirely aerobically. Lactic acid starts to accumulate in this area faster than the body can clear it and as you move higher into this threshold area you will have to slow down soon. Honestly I don’t know how someone training on low-carb could even reach this area because fats require oxygen to supply energy. Burning glycogen as fuel can be either aerobic or anerobic, depending on the pace. In Stu Mittleman’s book he has one day a week to exercise in the "sugar burning zone", which would correspond to the LT area. Probably the most practical way for an average person to measure their LTHR is to do a race as fast as they can (fueled with both fats and sugar) and scale their average HR from that race to LT (using similar %s to the ones I gave before). A person can run at close to LT for about an hour, thus for many a 10 mile race done to the best of one’s ability would tell them their LTHR. For slower runners it would be a 10k. Personally when I haven’t done a short race, I use hard tempo runs or intervals to guestimate my LT, which isn’t as precise as other methods, but with experience one can get a pretty close estimate where one’s LT area is. Using a tempo run of 25 mins is less hard than race, so you’d multiply by 105 to 110% to get your LT estimate, depending on your run intensity. More accurate methods are to find your LT pace and/or HR on a track and a blood-lactate measuring device using methods laid out in various books designed to guide you through that, or to use conconi’s test on a track to determine LTHR. It’s not as easy to determine as MaxHR but is a better measure of fitness and what your training zones should be. Methods for determining LT: http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/exercisephysiology/a/aa091301a.htm HR Zones based on LT: http://www.3-fitness.com/triathlon/zones.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LT is much more important than MHR for setting training efforts because your race pace is directly linked not to MHR, but to LT. For example, it’s known that a marathon can be run at about 96% of LT, a 10k at 100-103% of LT depending on your time, and a 5k at upwards of 105% of LT. So the improvement of LT directly affects your potential race pace, as does it limit your ability to train at a certain level and readily recover. Note that using a HRM to determine or read LT is imperfect for all the reasons a HRM is imperfect, but when one is well-rested under similar weather conditions, HR can be used to as a measurement of LT instead a blood-lactate testing kit. Well, based on some WAG, I am not in a good enough shape to run a marathon at 96% of LT, and it also probably is an unpleasant experience to run so close. It is not my goal. If I can do a sub 4 hour marathon and feel okay afterwards, I will be fine.

Yes, your situation is unique. If you really have no glycogen then you technically should never be able to run above or even close to the LT area, even for a sprint distance. In fact your fast-twitch muscles should scarcely work at all. – Tony

Response:

I only do 2-1 at the end of a race or a tough workout. …just goes to show that you can go faster…

I wonder if this is partly determined by ones VO2 max ? I mean, when you did the measurements, you had exceptionally high VO2 max and relatively poor running economy, which basically means you’re a "gas guzzler", so maybe that explains why you breathe fairly quickly even at a low relative intensity. I’ve noticed one of my training partners used a very low breathing rate when he was starting out (3-3 for the bulk of a speed workout) and this has been picking up as he’s been training. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Sorry if I am missing something big, or something that Ishould know, but how do you measure your LT? The lactate threshold is not a single number, but rather it’s an area of effort where the pace becomes too high for the energy supply system to work entirely aerobically. Lactic acid starts to accumulate in this area faster than the body can clear it and as you move higher into this threshold area you will have to slow down soon. Makes sense. I want to train my fat oxidation system, so, if I never reach LT, too bad.

You need to improve your LT for optimal marathon performance too. Read the chapter on "tempo training" in Glover’s book. I am also training to do pushups, right now I am up to 52. I no longer experience muscle pain as I get to the end of the set, just fatigue (inability to perform). I interpret this as being able to remove LA from muscles quickly enough, and running out of glycogen.

I doubt it. Are you out of breath when doing pushups in the same way as you would be after a very hard run ? Oxygen transport is not usually a limiting factor for pushups. Honestly I don’t know how someone training on low-carb could even reach this area because fats require oxygen to supply energy. Burning glycogen as fuel can be either aerobic or anerobic, depending on the pace. In Stu Mittleman’s book he has one day a week to exercise in the "sugar burning zone", which would correspond to the LT area. Which is fine with me, I want to run on my "diesel fuel".

To get good at running on your "diesel fuel", you need to run at the fastest pace at which your body can stay in "diesel mode". That pace has a name — it’s called your "lactate threshold", or "LT". close estimate where one’s LT area is. Using a tempo run of 25 mins is less hard than race, so you’d multiply by 105 to 110% to get your LT estimate, depending on your run intensity. What if I am poorly conditioned so that something else limits my speed?

Besides inadequate nutrition, I’m not sure what else would limit your speed. If you’re doing a cool weather race, heat and hydration shouldn’t be limiting factors. Thanks. I, frankly, am becoming convinced that I cannot reach my LT and in any case it is not, yet, a practical issue.

Thank you. I got a good laugh out of that. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Snip< HR Zones based on LT: http://www.3-fitness.com/triathlon/zones.htm

looking closer at the zones laid out on that site they look bogus to me. Vo2max zones are always above LT zones. I had another site but can’t find it now…

Response:

I only do 2-1 at the end of a race or a tough workout. …just goes to show that you can go faster… I wonder if this is partly determined by ones VO2 max ?

Interesting — it would seem that the high vo2 max guys have to breathe harder to get that extra output. Higher redline, in other words. They might be working just as hard (breathing as hard) as you running 7:00/mile, but while you might hit LT at 5:40, they can keep revving up the motor before they hit their redline at 5:00. It would also follow that in general, when you improve your vo2 max, you can comfortably run at a higher breathing rate. I mean, when you did the measurements, you had exceptionally high VO2 max and relatively poor running economy, which basically means you’re a "gas guzzler", so maybe that explains why you breathe fairly quickly even at a low relative intensity.

I was about 18% less efficient than my world-class brethren with the same vo2 max of 76 (which predicts a 2:14 marathon). I would guess about 10% less efficient than the average competitor. Still, the fast guys I used to run with raced 3 step a lot of the time. I’ve noticed one of my training partners used a very low breathing rate when he was starting out (3-3 for the bulk of a speed workout) and this has been picking up as he’s been training.

Makes sense — his vo2 max has improved. — Dan

Response:

If you get in shape to do tempo runs at 3 steps per breath cycle, you’re getting somewhere… I want to first learn to run long at this speed… I am training for a marathon.

Strangely enough, if you train fast (eg, a 30-40 minute tempo run at 3 or in your case 4 step breathing) for shorter distances, you magically become able to hold a faster pace for long distances. One of the amazing things about training is that you need never run a fast 20 miler in training, but if you do the speedwork and tempo work, you’ll be able to do a fast 20+ in a race without much problem. Cool, huh? — Dan

Response:

But you still need a good aerobic base to run 20+ miles in the first place. You can’t do only 45 minute tempo runs and expect to do well in a marathon.

Response:

One of the amazing things about training is that you need never run a fast 20 miler in training, but if you do the speedwork and tempo work, you’ll be able to do a fast 20+ in a race without much problem. Cool, huh? But you still need a good aerobic base to run 20+ miles in the first place. You can’t do only 45 minute tempo runs and expect to do well in a marathon.

I think his point was that you need slow 20 milers in training and the other stuff will take care of your speed. –Harold Buck "I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ." -Homer J. Simpson

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of the amazing things about training is that you need never run a fast 20 miler in training, but if you do the speedwork and tempo work, you’ll be able to do a fast 20+ in a race without much problem. Cool, huh? But you still need a good aerobic base to run 20+ miles in the first place. You can’t do only 45 minute tempo runs and expect to do well in a marathon. I think his point was that you need slow 20 milers in training and the other stuff will take care of your speed.

I caught that, but you never know how Ig will take things…

Response:

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] Learn to breathe! Elite runners are breathing 3 to 4 steps per breath cycle at racing pace. Are you holding yourself back by your breathing? I think you have potential to run noticably faster if you can get into better shape. If your legs get strong enough to demand more oxygen, you’ll find yourself breathing harder, and running faster. I reach my MHR by breathing 1 step in, 1 step out. 85% with 2 in/1 out, and 60-65% with 3 in/3 out. If you get in shape to do tempo runs at 3 steps per breath cycle, you’re getting somewhere… — Dan

Building on what Dan is saying, if one is maintaining a steady cadence of 180 at MHR, 85%, and 65%, Maintaining an erect posture and leaning forward from the ankle brings gravity into play as the body falls in the direction of the lean; The lean (angle) of the erect postured body from ankle to top of head increases as the speed increases; With increased speed, a greater distance is covered each stride; In order to maintain cadence, the runner has to move the leg more quickly through a greated range of motion; To cover a greater range while maintaining the same cadence, there is more work being done; The work being done is to keep up with the rate of falling so that one does not fall; To not run out of oxygen and go into oxygen debt as one increases their speed while maintaining the same 180 cadence, one can shorten the breath cycle so that more cycles of air are taken in over the same amount of steps 4/4 over 24 steps is 3 cycles of air 3/3 over 24 steps is 4 cycles of air 3/2 over 24 steps is 5.8 cycles of air 2/2 over 24 steps is 6.0 cycles of air 2/1 over 24 steps is 8.0 cycles of air 1/1 over 24 steps is 12 cycles of air While using Danny Dryer’s image of the erect body leaning from the ankle as an accelerator pedal to increase the speed, the increase in cycles of air with the increased speed while maintaining the same stride cadence would be the carburetor-increasing the amount of oxygen being burned. Or someone might want to use the higher the speed while maintaining the same RPM of strides, one increases the RPM of breath to maintain the overall perceived effort; The idea of the different breath cycles while maintaining the same stride cadence and increasing the speed is to give the brain and body enough oxygen so that a homeostasis is maintained while increasing the work load; While maintaining a constant speed with an increase in effort due to a steep hill or the glycogen depletion at the end of a long run, marathon, or ultra, one can use the same cycles above to maintain their constant speed – e.g. climbing a steep hill at elevation when a 2/1 or a 1/1 feels normal and natural. For me it is maintaining enough oxygen so that the brain does not panic and cause waste of energy by tightening up or tensing other muscles that need not be brought into work being done; Some Great dialogue and good info in this thread. Building on Donavan’s: I wonder if this is partly determined by ones VO2 max ? I mean, when

you did the measurements, you had exceptionally high VO2 max and relatively poor running economy, which basically means you’re a "gas guzzler", so maybe that explains why you breathe fairly quickly even at a low relative intensity. I’ve noticed one of my training partners used a very low breathing

rate when he was starting out (3-3 for the bulk of a speed workout) and this has been picking up as he’s been training. Cheers, Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ Practicing breath, Practice Form and Style While the 180 is an ideal or a scientific fiction, one can train at 180 steps/minute going at a 9 or 10 minute mile and breathing 8/8 while practicing to inflate the lungs to maximum. As the speed increases the breath cycle goes to a 8/6, then 7/6, then 6/6, then 6/5, then 5/5, then 5/4, then 4/4 and so on (this is a way to practice using breath so that the volume exchange remains the same and that one can gradually work at getting the same volume exchange at a 2/1 or 1/1). Again this is some folklore to practice and play with. While maintaining a 180 cadence, an even cycle (air out+air in=even number of steps) will coordinate with same foot landing at the beginning of the cycle; while a odd cycle (airout+air in= odd number of steps) will be a bilateral foot landing at the beginning of each breath cycle. Another image that might be helpful is the use of breathing as shifting gears. The more effort due to increased speed or more work (hills) the greater the number of breathing cycles per minute. Newsgroups: rec.running Interesting — it would seem that the high vo2 max guys have to breathe

harder to get that extra output. .Higher redline, in other words. They might be working just as hard (breathing as hard) as you running 7:00/mile, but while you might hit LT at 5:40, they can keep revving up the motor before they hit their redline at 5:00. .It would also follow that in general, when you improve your vo2 max, you can comfortably run at a higher breathing rate. .I was about 18% less efficient than my world-class brethren with the same vo2 max of 76 (which predicts a 2:14 marathon). I would guess about 10% less efficient than the average competitor. .Still, the fast guys I used to run with raced 3 step a lot of the time. Donovan said: I’ve noticed one of my training partners used a very low breathing

rate when he was starting out (3-3 for the bulk of a speed workout) and this has been picking up as he’s been training. Makes sense — his vo2 max has improved. — Dan

My logic would go, the higher the VO2Max, the lower the breathing rate. This would also mean that there was more capacity or more gears for this higher VO2Max person to down shift to. Rather than having 3 or 4 gears they could shift to 8 or 10 different gears. This goes along with your training partner’s ability to start out at a lower breathing rate at the beginning of your speed workouts. In my mind’s eye, because I am increasing the effort, I want to hyperventilate but knowing that the rapid breathing will only bring me to statis quo. Therefore I’m keeping the perceived effort low especially if I can keep the brain oxygenated very well. So at the end of a section of a speed workout, I don’t bend over, I keep my legs moving and continue to breathe at the breathe cycle I finished (e.g. 2/1 or 1/1) until I can feel that I am recovering and can go to a 2/2 or 3/3. From the Sport Psych part of me, in training people, I want them to feel the control they have by their breathing as opposed to gasping, hands on knees with the brain sending negative messages as to having to do this 6 more times. In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Maintainer – rec.running FAQ http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/ Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

Response:

Cold & Wet Marathon Preparations

admin — Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I know it’s too early to know for sure, but the October 10 forecast for Scranton PA (Steamtown Marathon) is "Clouds, cold and rainy, Low 38

back again

admin — Sun, 29 Aug 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

hahaha, I laugh at yout pittyfull remarks Bill-who stands alone in the group-Rodgerz. Your snake tongue and turtle brain deserve no award..

Wuzza matta, can’t take a joke? Or are you S-L-O-W on the uptake? LOLOL

Response:

Not really …. I started focussing on shorter distances and didn’t run a half a marathon for the last year or so. Although my 10k time was 18 km/hour and my 21.1 km speed was 15.6 km/hour You really think the difference is that big? What is your 10 km time? you got me curious now! r Niels

Response:

I see… but still, sub-33 is fantastic, and off that ability alone you should be able to run a 1:20 easily without training for it. It’s not like we are talking about the mile and the marathon here. Although my 10k time was 18 km/hour and my 21.1 km speed was 15.6 km/hour You really think the difference is that big?

Yes, and hard to believe, although I do believe you! What is your 10 km time? you got me curious now!

10km – 35:19. My half marathon time is comparatively a little slow at 1:19:03. Your 10k time suggests a half marathon ability of about 1:12:30 or thereabouts.That’s about my 5k race pace (low 17’s) cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

10km – 35:19. My half marathon time is comparatively a little slow at 1:19:03.

I should have mentioned my half marathon included a long winding hill of close to a km in length, which makes the difference up in my comparative ’slowness’. I imagine I could run a flat HM in about 1:18:10 – 1:18:30 or so. Still, I have not, and so I can’t say I have yet! I’m not one of those people who "adjust" their PR’s based on heat or hills. I look at the number when I cross the line, and I stick with that. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

10km – 35:19. My half marathon time is comparatively a little slow at 1:19:03.

OK you got me.. my 1/2 was in March ‘94 cold and pretty windy (rural area in Leeuwarden) while my best 10 km was during a triathlon 1,5 year later (Liessel)in 23 degrees Celcius, sun shine and no wind..I finished 2nd that race (of 150) I had a big drive since I was ahead of all local and non local favorites.. and who knows the distance could be off a few hundred meters.Still I had my best run ever that day… But I just mentioned the times to indicate I was a decent runner back then (last century) and am just restarting right now. I don’t think I will ever get close to that… but when I’m running I still feel the thrill every now and then (not so much now as I think of it..) I’ll see where it will take me… cheers. Niels

Response:

Although my 10k time was 18 km/hour and my 21.1 km speed was 15.6 km/hour You really think the difference is that big?

One of those "rule of thumb" approximation thingies (supposing training isn’t too specialised towards one of the distances): 10k at "x" km/h 21k at x-1 km/h 42k at x-2 km/h My PBs on FFA/IAAF certified routes, all set in the same season, are 10k 0:36:40 16.4km/h 21k 1:22:00 15.4km/h 42k 2:55:00 14.5km/h Given 33:00 for 10km, 1:14:00 for 21k, at the same level of training and in the right conditions, wouldn’t be an unreasonable guess. Note: I have no idea of the range performance levels which the rule of thumb is supposed to hold for, or even if it isn’t just a trick of the light

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although my 10k time was 18 km/hour and my 21.1 km speed was 15.6 km/hour You really think the difference is that big? One of those "rule of thumb" approximation thingies (supposing training isn’t too specialised towards one of the distances): 10k at "x" km/h 21k at x-1 km/h 42k at x-2 km/h My PBs on FFA/IAAF certified routes, all set in the same season, are 10k 0:36:40 16.4km/h 21k 1:22:00 15.4km/h 42k 2:55:00 14.5km/h Given 33:00 for 10km, 1:14:00 for 21k, at the same level of training and in the right conditions, wouldn’t be an unreasonable guess. Note: I have no idea of the range performance levels which the rule of thumb is supposed to hold for, or even if it isn’t just a trick of the light

funny talking about these times, while I was so happy yesterday running my 7 km course with only 1 break (2 intervals as my brother should say) in 35,5 minutes… It seems like another life. but the progress is still huge (beating 40 seconds of my previous training who knows that 1:14.. hahaha.. (on the 10 Miles maybe..)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although my 10k time was 18 km/hour and my 21.1 km speed was 15.6 km/hour You really think the difference is that big? One of those "rule of thumb" approximation thingies (supposing training isn’t too specialised towards one of the distances): 10k at "x" km/h 21k at x-1 km/h 42k at x-2 km/h My PBs on FFA/IAAF certified routes, all set in the same season, are 10k 0:36:40 16.4km/h 21k 1:22:00 15.4km/h 42k 2:55:00 14.5km/h Given 33:00 for 10km, 1:14:00 for 21k, at the same level of training and in the right conditions, wouldn’t be an unreasonable guess. Note: I have no idea of the range performance levels which the rule of thumb is supposed to hold for, or even if it isn’t just a trick of the light funny talking about these times, while I was so happy yesterday running my 7 km course with only 1 break (2 intervals as my brother should say) in 35,5 minutes… It seems like another life. but the progress is still huge (beating 40 seconds of my previous training who knows that 1:14.. hahaha.. (on the 10 Miles maybe..)

It’s funny – when you are not in the same shape, so many things change. I took over 3 months off last summer and when I came back I did an "easy" 10k. I found the old easy speed to not be all that unexpectedly hard to deal with (it was harder, of course), but my hydration tolerance and needs had changed a lot. It was a hot day and I had to stop because I felt quite dehydrated, much more than I would have in the same situation and weather when I was fit. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

Despite the odds, I ran my first 10k (training) yesterday in a nice 48 minutes. It felt tremendous and I had to hold down my pace cause I felt like I was flying. It’s been only 2 1/2 weeks since I started again…but man! does it feel goo or what? I just gotta take a rest today.. take care of my knees.. r Niels

Response:

Despite the odds, I ran my first 10k (training) yesterday in a nice 48 minutes.

Congarts! You just received this weeks "Turtle Racer award". Sorry, this weeks "Snail Racer award" has already been awarded.

Response:

Despite the odds, I ran my first 10k (training) yesterday in a nice 48 minutes. Congarts! You just received this weeks "Turtle Racer award". Sorry, this weeks "Snail Racer award" has already been awarded.

hahaha, I laugh at yout pittyfull remarks Bill-who stands alone in the group-Rodgerz. Your snake tongue and turtle brain deserve no award.. Niels.

Response:

**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** Hi I was a member of this group back in ‘93 when I was a student and doing an internship at the Wageningen university (The Netherlands). At that time I was just introduced into the world of running & triathlon and made some pretty good progress at the time. In ‘95 I did a 10km in less then 33 minutes and a 21,1 km in 1′20. Also had some nice top 3 finishes in 1/4 triathlons..but then work started and I stopped training…Gained over 20 kilo’s (!) and finally had a beer and WATCHED the game! I restarted a couple of times, but now it is seriously. I’m planning for a nice marathon next year, but am not sure what my goals should be. Right now I’m doing a loing run of 6,5 km in about 38 minutes and am still gaining minutes per week. I feel I can do anything, but need to be more practical… Anyone with similar experience? Would like to hear how your come-back went and what kind of schedule you took… I don’t wanne be to carefull, but I do want to prevent getting disappointed. nice to hear from you! regard Niels *** Usenet.com – The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download – 19 Seperate Servers – 90,000 groups – Uncensored

Response:

Forget the fast pace, cut back to 10mpm and do LSD if you want to run a marathon (which you are completely and totally unprepared for).

Response:

yes yes yes… sure I’m unpreparred right now.. but drugs is never the answer. And you should know that LSD doesn’t really help you get better times (it just makes you feel better).. OK I’m kiddin.. I was actually looking for advice on how to… the "no you can’t", "you never make it", "you’re stupuid trying that" remarks, I can do that myself.. As far as I can see I still got 30 weeks left adding 1 km per week is enough.. and OK let’s forget about the pace..4 hours will be fine It’s setting new goals, the effort, the hope and the pleasure that counts.. keep you posted.. Niels and ps. I am totally against drugs! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Forget the fast pace, cut back to 10mpm and do LSD if you want to run a marathon (which you are completely and totally unprepared for).

Response:

but drugs is never the answer.

Oh, yes they are….

Maybe so, but I’m a professional, I can do it much more efficently. s far as I can see I still got 30 weeks left adding 1 km per week is enough.. and OK let’s forget about the pace..4 hours will be fine

Ok, now you’re being reasonable. It’s setting new goals, the effort, the hope and the pleasure that counts..

Write back a few hours after the race… and ps. I am totally against drugs!

Oh me too!

Response:

Very strange. I dream of your 10k time and will likely never approach it, but can run a 1:20 half marathon for breakfast. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

Luckily it’s not going to be my first marathon…I know about the pleasure ‘just’ after… (or better the day after walking down the stairs) I run a marathon in ‘92 in 3:17 and discovered that there is a diference after 35 km. In my training at that time I did a 35 km once… I made a schedule of 2 pryamids (basic,power,speed) both pyramids lasting about 15 weeks. I planned 4 long runs of 30, 32,35 and 30 km in feb and march. every 2 weeks one long run. My first goal is getting up to 10 km with a good feeling. After that it is slowly increasing milage up to 20 (14 weeks from now). But how about some advice/experience? Did you ever started again? how did that go? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but drugs is never the answer. Oh, yes they are….