Question:

This restaurant doesn’t sell itself especially as a place for runners, but it works out that way.  Maybe 45 different kinds of pancakes and some truly huge brunch specials Saturdays and Sundays 10am to 2pm. http://www.shopsins.com/ 54 Carmine Street In the West Village between 6th and 7th Aves.

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I would think that after a long run (whatever that is) – protein and not carbs are the way to go. Tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This restaurant doesn’t sell itself especially as a place for runners, but it works out that way.  Maybe 45 different kinds of pancakes and some truly huge brunch specials Saturdays and Sundays 10am to 2pm. http://www.shopsins.com/ 54 Carmine Street In the West Village between 6th and 7th Aves.

Response:

I would think that after a long run (whatever that is) – protein and not carbs are the way to go.

Tom Eat cum Tom. Test my theory, every guy named Tom I ever met was an asshole.

Response:

I would think that after a long run (whatever that is) – protein and not carbs are the way to go.

The consensus seems to be that the best move after a long run is to replenish both fluids and carbohydrates, with the muscles being especially amenable to glycogen absorption in the the immediate short period after the exertion.  I rely on the Glover book on competitive running    http://tinyurl.com/jmxs which itself cites more technical references on this topic.

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This was just an advertisement for a restaurant.  I heard the restaurant wasn’t that good anyway. Protein is the way to go. Enjoy, Curt

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would think that after a long run (whatever that is) – protein and not carbs are the way to go. Tom This restaurant doesn’t sell itself especially as a place for runners, but it works out that way.  Maybe 45 different kinds of pancakes and some truly huge brunch specials Saturdays and Sundays 10am to 2pm. http://www.shopsins.com/ 54 Carmine Street In the West Village between 6th and 7th Aves.

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SPAM!

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This was just an advertisement for a restaurant.  I heard the restaurant wasn’t that good anyway. Protein is the way to go. Enjoy, Curt

Do you eat Cum, Curt?

Response:

Protein is the way to go.

I can’t believe people actually believe this.  Look at the role protein plays in you diet.  It’s main roles are assisting in muscle repair and maintaining hormonal balance ( ok it does a bit more than this but I am trying to keep this simple).  In reality most Americans get more protein in their diet than they need so much of this is expelled through the urine.  Taking in more protein will not help. Its kind of like putting 20 gallons of gas into a 15 gallon tank.  Now some people are proclaiming the great value of protein.  They are advocating that you throw 25 gallons in that 15 gallon tank. Extra protein beyond your 15 gallon tank does nothing unless you are deficient in certain essential amino acids (which is rare if you eat meat).  I have not seen a double blind study that is privately funded which says differently.  The only possible use of additional protein I have seen is a theory that small amounts of protein in combination with carbohydrates could lead to greater gastric emptying (help you digest carbohydrates quicker). However this is till just a theory. On the other hand we know at the end of the long run you have used much of your glycogen storage.  It is very easy to replenish these storage tanks within an hour of long sustained activity.  You don’t need to worry as much about glycogen levels and other things. Watch out for snake oil salesman who tries to sell you their bag of goods. Mike

Response:

Hi Mike, I am just talking about my experience.  I am on Atkins and am amazed at how much muscle I gain while losing a few pounds of fat.  I am getting down another 5 pound.  Eating low carb seems to work very well for me and I have no problem with recovery.  I am not saying I eat high protein however.  I eat low carb.  There is a difference. I am not sure this way is good for everyone.  I can only speak at to how it effects me.  I’ll be doing some very long hikes/runs in the Adirondacks next week and that will be another good test I will put myself through. Curt

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Protein is the way to go. I can’t believe people actually believe this.  Look at the role protein plays in you diet.  It’s main roles are assisting in muscle repair and maintaining hormonal balance ( ok it does a bit more than this but I am trying to keep this simple).  In reality most Americans get more protein in their diet than they need so much of this is expelled through the urine.  Taking in more protein will not help. Its kind of like putting 20 gallons of gas into a 15 gallon tank.  Now some people are proclaiming the great value of protein.  They are advocating that you throw 25 gallons in that 15 gallon tank. Extra protein beyond your 15 gallon tank does nothing unless you are deficient in certain essential amino acids (which is rare if you eat meat).  I have not seen a double blind study that is privately funded which says differently.  The only possible use of additional protein I have seen is a theory that small amounts of protein in combination with carbohydrates could lead to greater gastric emptying (help you digest carbohydrates quicker). However this is till just a theory. On the other hand we know at the end of the long run you have used much of your glycogen storage.  It is very easy to replenish these storage tanks within an hour of long sustained activity.  You don’t need to worry as much about glycogen levels and other things. Watch out for snake oil salesman who tries to sell you their bag of goods. Mike

Response:

I’ll be doing some very long hikes/runs in the Adirondacks next week and that will be another good test I will put myself through.

If you are going to try this I would be very carefull.  If your in the mountians and you bonk it could be very dangerous.  Make sure you bring some resturaunt sugar packets with you.  If you start feeling dizzy or light headed start taking them.  It would be hell getting stranded out there.  I bonked twice.  Once on a 110 mile bike ride and once on a 50 mile bike 10 mile run brick.  I am glad I had people around me who made me push gatoraid and gels until I could limp back home.  I felt the effects for the next couple days. Good luck and have a good time Mike

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Thanks Mike.  I will take your advise.  On Atkins you can up the carbs to whatever.  It doesn’t have to be as strict as the first two weeks of the diet.  Anyway, I will certainly bring along supplies and will be with another person. I like to test things, but I am old enough to bring back up, that is for sure. Take care, Curt

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be doing some very long hikes/runs in the Adirondacks next week and that will be another good test I will put myself through. If you are going to try this I would be very carefull.  If your in the mountians and you bonk it could be very dangerous.  Make sure you bring some resturaunt sugar packets with you.  If you start feeling dizzy or light headed start taking them.  It would be hell getting stranded out there.  I bonked twice.  Once on a 110 mile bike ride and once on a 50 mile bike 10 mile run brick.  I am glad I had people around me who made me push gatoraid and gels until I could limp back home.  I felt the effects for the next couple days. Good luck and have a good time Mike

Response:

I have not seen a double blind study that is privately funded which says differently.

How many privately funded studies are there ? I don

Question:

Does anyone know which station I could find live coverage of Boston on? Thanks!

Europe, 18.00-20.30 MEST Eurosport Satellite: ASTRA reception area Trp. 77 (27500, 3/4) ASTRA-1H (footprint: http://www.astra.de/satellites/footprints.shtml) analog 11.9535 GHz / H 19.2

Question:

Does anyone have a web address of email info for Tri Dallas?  I went to Run On and other stores but they are out of info! Ta.  Simon

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The URL is: http://www.tridallas.com/. Ken Does anyone have a web address of email info for Tri Dallas?  I went to Run On and other stores but they are out of info! Ta.  Simon

Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

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Question:

Once a triathlete, always a triathlete… Despite serious leg problems (torn calf muscle, heel spur) I just couldn’t stay away.  So, despite serious under training on the swim and run, I did the Metroplex Tri (Dallas) today.  The swim was just about what I expected, slow but steady (17 min) and since I was in the last wave I was way BOP. The bike however is my strong point.  I cranked up the old Zipp, and passed 102 (yes, I counted… doesn’t everyone?) fellow athletes in a 18 miles ride.  Then, the dreaded part… THE RUN! As soon as I jogged out of T2, I know it was going to be a good day.  No leg pain, no problem, and yes!  I felt great!  Lack of training showed however and I had to slow to a jog (even walk at aid stations), but I actually sprinted in.  22 of those I passed on the bike reeled me in again, one my AG, all the rest younger.   Final result:  a 1:39, which is a PR for me. Damn, I feel good!  But, the downside…. I’m hooked again (I guess I’ve been addicted 12 years now and can’t kick the tri habit).  Where is the next race?  I wanna go!

Response:

John— This was *wonderful* to read!  I felt so badly for you when you posted about your "forced retirement" from the sport, and your attempts to actually *sell* your beloved Zipp.   Welcome back, comrade!!! Bravo!! In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Once a triathlete, always a triathlete… Despite serious leg problems (torn calf muscle, heel spur) I just couldn’t stay away.  So, despite serious under training on the swim and run, I did the Metroplex Tri (Dallas) today.  The swim was just about what I expected, slow but steady (17 min) and since I was in the last wave I was way BOP. The bike however is my strong point.  I cranked up the old Zipp, and passed 102 (yes, I counted… doesn’t everyone?) fellow athletes in a 18 miles ride.  Then, the dreaded part… THE RUN! As soon as I jogged out of T2, I know it was going to be a good day.  No leg pain, no problem, and yes!  I felt great!  Lack of training showed however and I had to slow to a jog (even walk at aid stations), but I actually sprinted in.  22 of those I passed on the bike reeled me in again, one my AG, all the rest younger.   Final result:  a 1:39, which is a PR for me. Damn, I feel good!  But, the downside…. I’m hooked again (I guess I’ve been addicted 12 years now and can’t kick the tri habit).  Where is the next race?  I wanna go!

– Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

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Question:

As everyone knows, tomorrow is April 15. My nervousness has been set for a week now, itching to see what tomorrow brings. I know I will be spending a sleepless night tonight thinking about one burning question. The question that is on a lot of peoples’ minds at this moment. What happens tomorrow could shape the rest of this year in terms of expenses and time. And what is this question that burns inside a lot of heads, including mine, at this moment? Did I get my taxes in before the deadline?  ;-) Iron Pete "I’ve abandoned hope on the domestic lottery a long time ago" Priolo

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As everyone knows, tomorrow is April 15. My nervousness has been set for a week now, itching to see what tomorrow brings. I know I will be spending a sleepless night tonight thinking about one burning question. The question that is on a lot of peoples’ minds at this moment. What happens tomorrow could shape the rest of this year in terms of expenses and time. And what is this question that burns inside a lot of heads, including mine, at this moment? Did I get my taxes in before the deadline? Iron Pete "I’ve abandoned hope on the domestic lottery a long time ago"

Priolo Geez, Pete. Why you gotta go and be an alarmist? There’s oodles and oodles of time before the deadline – more than 39 hours (PDT). Just forget about it until 10pm or so tomorrow nite. *Then* you can start worrying. Ron ‘whaddya mean, procrastinate?’ Gilcreast

Response:

Terre Haute Triathlon May 15 Terre Haute, Indiana 1K swim 40K bike 8K run Great ealy season race. Wetsuit swim, Gentle rolling hills on blacktop roads for the bike, The run is throught the woods on trails and partly blacktop. No serious hills. Very safe fast course. 350 limit. Call 765-832-1500 or 812-238-7311 for enty form

Response:

How cold is the water.  The registration stuff said 72.  Do I REALLY need a wetsuit for that temperature? Only my second tri, so I really am wandering.  Also,  If I need a wetsuit.  Is there somewhere in Terre Haute to rent one? Dave "remembering 20 years ago, morning swim practices in a very cold pool"  Tomlinson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Terre Haute Triathlon May 15 Terre Haute, Indiana 1K swim 40K bike 8K run Great ealy season race. Wetsuit swim, Gentle rolling hills on blacktop roads for the bike, The run is throught the woods on trails and partly blacktop. No serious hills. Very safe fast course. 350 limit. Call 765-832-1500 or 812-238-7311 for enty form

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Question:

For the northern hemisphere triathletes out there it’s time to put the wetsuit into mothballs, clip the bike onto a stationary trainer and hunker down for another winter long cold winter. What can you do to keep your motivation up through the dark days? How about planning your next extreme triathlon? The new XT race guide has just gone live with detailed information on over 70 races already logged and more arriving all the time. The race guide is now running from a database so you can find races by distance, classification or location. Check it out at www.extremetri.com ! Also new on the site is a pro diary from the ‘Hawaii double’ – the combined Hawaii Ironman and Xterra mountain bike races – by outstanding US athlete and Xterra winner, Sue Latshaw. Keep the weather at bay with XT! Keep training smart!

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FYI Nick I have had trouble getting into the RACE  GUIDE. I have not been able to access it from any "click on" since you began posting about it a few days ago.

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Checked with Rob and the server has been seizing…it’s fine at the moment and he is having the problem looked at! Cheers Nick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FYI Nick I have had trouble getting into the RACE  GUIDE. ……

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Question:

Hi fellow triathletes! Is anyone out there who can confirm or knows someone who can confirm, if there has ever been a triathlon organized by a college team?  If so, who and which and when and where and whatever else? Thanks a bunch in advance! Cheerio, Dierk Seeburg, Sun Devil Triathlon Team, Arizona State University, Tempe, USA

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yes there has, Cal Poly started putting one on last year i believe, several schools attended, Cal Berkely, Poly, UCSB, and a couple more i think. they had one again this year, but we (UCSB) couldnt attend.  In the past UCSB has been trying to organize with the help of a couple other schools a triathlon series…but that kinda fizzled out. hopefully USAT will take over at start getting something organized for us.  As far as hosting races, all we do is a Swim-Run on campus twice a year as a fundraiser, but its nothing serious. see ya at wildflower scott

Response:

Hi fellow triathletes! Is anyone out there who can confirm or knows someone who can confirm, if there has ever been a triathlon organized by a college team?  If so, who and which and when and where and whatever else? Thanks a bunch in advance!

My dad puts on the Auburn Sprint Triathlon for the triathlon club at Auburn University.  It was last weekend and there was team competition between the Emory University Triathlon Club and Auburn Triathletes. Elspeth

Response:

Hi fellow triathletes! Is anyone out there who can confirm or knows someone who can confirm, if there has ever been a triathlon organized by a college team?  If so, who and which and when and where and whatever else? Thanks a bunch in advance!

Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon (www.orst.edu/groups/triclub) puts on an annual race in April (The Beaver Freezer). They don’t have an official "team" (its a club) but they do an excellent job and have some *outstanding* athletes.  Every year they issue a call for teams/clubs from other universities to compete but haven’t had many takers yet as far as I know. Dan

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My take on it is that draft-legal races would be more likely to DIScourage newbies, not ENcourage them.  Guess what?  Pack racing is DANGEROUS. (Yes, that was purely rhetorical.  I know you all know this already.) Triathlon is already a pretty intimidating sport for the average Joe to contemplate; making the bike leg draft-legal would only be a further turn-off because of the danger involved. Have said it before, will say it again:  I got out of bike racing and into triathlon largely because I hated the non-stop tension of pack riding.  I admit it, I was a wimp!  The thought of going down in a massive pile-up always scared the bejeezus outta me, and I consider myself lucky to have gotten through almost 3 years of bike racing unscathed.  I got out before it caught up with me.  But now that damned annoying pack racing thing is following me into triathlon!  Urrrrgh.

I agree 100%, Tricia. The safety issue is a major one. I know I’ve had close calls in non-draft races. I can’t imagine being in a pack with a newbie and coming up to a corner. No thanks. Mike "TriBop" Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Beginner’s FAQ, Software Download the WebRunner Racing Utilities   http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

Response:

  With numbers being stagnant, and yes, this is a fact we must accept,   obviously something needs to be done. I’ve watched my local race director   take a bunch of heat this year and when it comes right down to it, "most"   races brake even or lose money. No race is "very profitable." The following is opinion – mine. Saturation:         Another fact we must also accept is "saturation".  The nature of         triathlon probably means that only a % of the population are viable         targets – the fit lot, or those who want to be.  Therefore, when it         was new, it (like running) had a surge of popularity, but then         flattened and eventually waned.  Recruitment will then follow population         patterns. Newbies:         People may do it out of curiosity, and may never go for seconds if         their (eg) swim leg was a nightmare.  Not many people live in or next         to open water.  Many people commute by bike (me inc) and run quite         regularly.  Most folks know how to ride a bike.         There need to be races which cater for first timers –  not just well:                         VERY WELL         You sometimes have only one shot to catch your fish, make sure the         bait is appropriate. Keeping the interest:         Once hooked, people need to be encouraged to retain their "membership",         particularly during the off season.  Duathlons can be a good substitute.         Advice on how to keep fit without becoming a social misfit is vital.         With me, this means commuting to work (bike), lunch runs and a swim         or gym if time permits later in the day.  I’d suggest some triathletes         give it away because they *feel* they can’t put sufficient training         time in.  Including it in part of your daily routine is the only way         to do it.  Do you drive?  Don’t  Do you take a train/bus/tram?  Don’t.         Yes, I know that’s not easy for some, but then you have to live with the         choices you make.  Living in a place which snows during winter isn’t         ideal triathlon territory.  Neither is Melbourne for that matter, but         at least we have good beaches, and we’re all sports mad.         Steve mentions a constant flow of newbies.  Well, that’s good.  However,         the hard task is to make them permanent.  I can’t exactly remember         what a sales friend once told me (I may have it backwards) :-                 "It’s easier to lose a customer than get a new one." Who’s In Control?         This is (WRT me anyway) a major point.  I do triathlons for the         enjoyment.  When I hear about big business interests wanting to boost         triathlon’s image through (eg) drafting and other Gee Whiz features,         I wonder whether it’s time for an exit stage left.  I recollect a recent         comment someone made about St Anthony’s .. "they’re (St Anthony’s)         feeding us .." or words to that effect.  Sorry mate, it’s the other way         around, if it wasn’t for "us", St Anthony’s wouldn’t exist.  They feed         off us, not the other way around.  Don’t spoil what you’ve got by         being greedy.  People will turn away. Jazzing It Up:         Noted above, this is dissatisfaction with "stagnation".  I call it         greed.  This is not basketball.  Accept it and realise we will not         have a Michael Jordan ambassador.  Then get over it.  This is a         participatory, not spectator sport.  They way things are going         commercial interests (inc the ITU) will kill the sport. Organisers:         As noted before, a bad experience will turn people away from the sport.         Entry fees are quite significant compared to other sports.  Therefore,         any event which has had corners cut to "economise" will not just kill         those run by the same organisers, it will turn folks away from the         sport in general.  Little things like surf skiers in view when you look         up in the swim leg, plenty of water/fluid, draft busters, a secure         compound and … a smile.  Over officious dudes can spoil a day, and so         can grouchy competitors…                 I remember I snapped at a guy (volunteer) in Geelong this                 year because he wasn’t looking in my direction.  I missed a                 drink as a result .. or so I thought.  He ran after me with a                 large cup (no easy feat ), apologised, smiled and passed it                 to me.  I realised it wasn’t easy being a volunteer and really                 felt like a weed.  On the return part of the run I picked him                 out and really tried to convey my apologies to him.  There was                 no need for any aggro.         I cannot overstate the need to feel secure during the swim leg.  If it         means multiple waves, fine.  The worst experience a novice can have is         the inevitable belting in a crowded swim.         Indeed, overcrowded triathlons (a result of greedy organisers?) are         also a BIG turn-off!         Yes, it may be difficult to make ends meet, but there *are* successful         organisers (at least in Oz).  Interestingly, those are the ones who do         things extremely well.  They are also the ones who LISTEN to         competitors, not try to DICTATE their own view or one they’re pressured         to convey.  1984 and the Gulf War is over, we’re not sheep, so please         give up trying to establish a "perception" on our behalf. Drafting, Organisers and the NGBs:         When we say we don’t want it – it means …                       WE DON’T WANT IT!!! Savvy? Another mouthful from .. —   Woof!

Response:

Some interesting things to think about drafting have been discussed in my shop and I’d like to get other’s insight. For the record, I AM AGAINST DRAFTING!!! PARAMOUNT===Triathlon is a Time Trial=== Lets not forget the objective of the sport.

This is only true for the bike segment.  Mostly neglibile effects of the run, but definite benefits on the swim.  To say ANY triathlon is completely time trial (except those few that stagger start the swim) is a mistake. The fundamental issue really comes down to "is the bike segment time-trial or not".   Now, I think both sides need to admit there is a basic philosophical difference at a very high level.  It makes no sense arguing over the fine-structure after that. Personnally, I much prefer the time-trial format of the bike-leg. Just one parting shot,  most people will admit that it is possible to get a small "draft-legal draft" on the bike especially at higher speeds.  I’m curious to hear what people think about this.  It is certainly legal, but also certainly not in the spirit of time-trialing either. FWIW, Pat CST-3: Analytical Quality & Chemical Info Mgt    Los Alamos National Lab _-           -_    Group Leader, CST-3      -__       __-                                     /    cis:      72410,3372         /  

Response:

Some interesting things to think about drafting have been discussed in my shop and I’d like to get other’s insight. For the record, I AM AGAINST DRAFTING!!!

PARAMOUNT===Triathlon is a Time Trial=== Lets not forget the objective of the sport. Drafting is a strategic act and has no place in a Time Trial though a major part of other cycling events. As to why the numbers are going down or static: Lets face it,  EGO is important to athletes, even age groupers.  When you see a triathlon on TV or read about one in the news paper, it often appears as though there are only 5 guys and a couple women out their.  The media has left all others out.  Only the start line shot shows otherwise. Go back 10 or more years and when you watched Ironman Hawaii and other events on the boob tube you saw all ages of folks crossing the finish line or dueling it out on the course.     You seen the top pros getting their awards and often were informed of the number 1 age groupers. Today, those age groupers have been left out,  they don’t matter.  All that is wanted from then is the entrance fee and the numbers that say the race is filled to capacity.   The age grouper are an important and major part of all but a few triathlons.   If race directors are not willing to give them the recognition they earn and are deserving of, then expect the current trend to continue.     The age groupers not only support the major events, they support shops like Steve’s Multisport.   I doubt if any triathlon shop in the country could survive off the profits from Pros alone.   Every shop owner in the country should be getting on the case of the Race Directors and insure that media coverage includes Age Groupers.  Hey, look in the results section of Triathlete magazines,  often the age groupers don’t even get a typed word.   Do something or do nothing and let the sport die. Just don’t ever allow drafting. Ken

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Some interesting things to think about drafting have been discussed in my shop and I’d like to get other’s insight. For the record, I AM AGAINST DRAFTING!!! But.. does drafting serve a purpose? will it get the sport some more attention. if you don’t like drafting then why don’t race directors have both drafting and non drafting races, obviously not a the same venue. With numbers being stagnant, and yes, this is a fact we must accept, obviously something needs to be done. I’ve watched my local race director take a bunch of heat this year and when it comes right down to it, "most" races brake even or lose money. No race is "very profitable." I personally have no answers and am a bit burned out myself working on finding a solution. In my shop, I am seeing more and more "new" multisport athletes joining up and racing but still, the local numbers are down. It doesn’t make sense to me but numbers don’t lie. So, will having different drafting and non drafting races help to get numbers up? I surely dont know but as someone who hasn’t seen a drafting race, I don’t know how many people would sign up. Of course, I don’t want to see it but I also don’t want to see the sport stay where it is. Karen Smyers made some great points but didn’t necessarily have a solution any more then I do. any and all comments are welcome! Steve

*** No one yet has talked about SAFETY! Most triathletes come from a running or swimming background.Very  few are roadies…we  are uncomfortable in a pelaton…especially drop bars…I am a mild mannered triathlete but someone on my ass will  soon be on his.

Response:

| | does drafting serve a purpose? will it get the sport some more attention. | if you don’t like drafting then why don’t race directors have both | drafting and non drafting races, obviously not a the same venue. | | | Good questions, good ideas.  *Maybe* drafting will get the sport more | attention at some level (look at the ITGP series).  I have real doubts | about how successful local draft-legal events would be, though.  However, | if some folks WANT to race draft-legal events, let ‘em.  I just don’t | happen to be one of those folks. I think we may be drifting off course here. I don’t think drafting came about because someone actually thought that it would produce a more attractive sport (I may be wrong), I thought it came about because the alternative (non-drafting) was seen as being unmanagable. And with the sport trying to get into the Olympics, the powers that be (Les) thought they would have a hard time selling a sport which had rules (non-drafting) which would be hard to enforce in a consistent manner. As far as the St. Anthony’s cop-out. I think USAT could have avoided a lot of this bad reaction by its members if they had been more open about discussing what it was planning. Also, I think many of the members wouldn’t feel so violated if USAT had decided to hold a separate race for this purpose and not piggy-back it on St. Anthony’s. I know Karen Smyers said they considered this and decided it would be too expensive, but I think they should have reconsidered. Chris — Chris Passier           | splish splash.. splish splash.. splish splash.. Nortel Technologies     | squeak creak.. squeak creak.. squeak creak.. Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | flap flap puff.. flap flap puff.. flap flap puff

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   Some interesting things to think about drafting have been discussed in my  shop and I’d like to get other’s insight.    For the record, I AM AGAINST DRAFTING!!!    But..    does drafting serve a purpose? will it get the sport some more attention.  if you don’t like drafting then why don’t race directors have both  drafting and non drafting races, obviously not a the same venue. I’ve never been able to understand how drafting in a tri is going to make it more popular. Basically, with drafting in a tri, the bike leg becomes just like any other cycling road race — how many hours of CoreStates, Redlands, TDF, Giro to name a few do you see on US TV? Not much! The sport of triathlon is always to be of interest to a small niche group, it’s just the nature of the sport, IMHO. The reason they don’t have drafting and non-drafting races is most probably cost — your later comments on cost kind of answer this.    With numbers being stagnant, and yes, this is a fact we must accept,  obviously something needs to be done. I’ve watched my local race director  take a bunch of heat this year and when it comes right down to it, "most"  races brake even or lose money. No race is "very profitable."   I think the reason the numbers may be stagnant is again cost. With race entry fees getting more and more expensive and the cost of getting to races also rising, triathlons and duathlons (which I compete in) are rapidly becoming an eliteist (sp?) sport. The subject of cost has been discussed before — high priced bikes, shoes, wetsuits, etc. — not to mention the biggest cost in being able to compete well — the amount of training time involved. I think in many cases a new comer may well be willing to spend the money to buy the neatest carbon fiber gizzmo but when they realize the time commitment necessary to finish well in their age group, I think many of them just abandon the the sport.  I personally have no answers and am a bit burned out myself working on  finding a solution. In my shop, I am seeing more and more "new" multisport  athletes joining up and racing but still, the local numbers are down. It  doesn’t make sense to me but numbers don’t lie.    So, will having different drafting and non drafting races help to get  numbers up? I surely dont know but as someone who hasn’t seen a drafting  race, I don’t know how many people would sign up. Of course, I don’t want  to see it but I also don’t want to see the sport stay where it is.   I for one would no compete in a draft legal duathlon. Wouldn’t make any sense, the bike leg is what’s makes me competitive.  Karen Smyers made some great points but didn’t necessarily have a  solution any more then I do.    any and all comments are welcome!    Steve    

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[snip] With numbers being stagnant, and yes, this is a fact we must accept, obviously something needs to be done. Agreed.  Something needs to be done, but I doubt that drafting is that "something".  But it *is* something to consider.  Again, I think what most folks are so pissed off about is that draft-legal races aren’t being "tried out"—- they’ve been established ipso facto by the ITU as THE format for major events.  Nobody had any say in the matter.  The ITU willed it, and so it came to be.  End of "discussion".  (ha)

That certainly sums up my reasons for disliking it. I’ve watched my local race director take a bunch of heat this year and when it comes right down to it, "most" races brake even or lose money. No race is "very profitable." I can believe that!  It still amazes me and makes me exceedingly grateful that ANYBODY takes on the job of producing a triathlon.  I totally appreciate the work involved, and how little is probably gained in monetary terms.

To all the race organizers out there, in case I’ve neglected to mention it lately: THANK YOU! Your efforts are appreciated. So, will having different drafting and non drafting races help to get numbers up? I surely dont know but as someone who hasn’t seen a drafting race, I don’t know how many people would sign up. Of course, I don’t want to see it but I also don’t want to see the sport stay where it is. My take on it is that draft-legal races would be more likely to DIScourage newbies, not ENcourage them.  Guess what?  Pack racing is DANGEROUS. (Yes, that was purely rhetorical.  I know you all know this already.) Triathlon is already a pretty intimidating sport for the average Joe to contemplate; making the bike leg draft-legal would only be a further turn-off because of the danger involved. Have said it before, will say it again:  I got out of bike racing and into triathlon largely because I hated the non-stop tension of pack riding.

[Comments concerning Tri-Baby's wimpyness snipped ] As I have stated before, I like pack riding in it’s place. If I want to risk flesh, I’ll do so in a USCF Criterium, where my wounds will recieve the admiration they so richly deserve . However, I do not think that a Tri is the place for it. I’ve worked at tri’s and at pro bike races. There is a distinct difference between the spectators’ reactions. At a tri, everybody is cheering the participants and many are talking about how they might like to try it, having just seen friends who are known to be mortal do it. On the other hand, at a criterium, the spectators have this stunned expression. They can’t believe that any sane person would want to risk their hide riding that fast, that close together. It can’t help to encourage potential new triathletes that when they show a draftathlon on TV, you see the lead pack riding along, ho hum. Meanwhile, the ITU commentators are telling you how much drafting has breathed new life into the sport. Then suddenly, the cameras flash to a pile-up. "Hey! Here’s some excitement! Any big names in that pile?", "I’m not sure Bubba. Isn’t that Mike Pigg trying to put his chain back on?", "Oh, no, it’s just some no-name from the 3rd chase pack.", "Ah, well we better get back to the leaders. We don’t want to miss any celebrity carnage." Of course, then they hold a 10k race to see who gets the prize money. Draft-legal events such as the ITGP might stir some interest in the sport, but they might also scare potential newbies away from actually trying a tri.

But, don’t you see? You’re missing the point. It’s not about bringing in newbies. It’s about making it appealing to the NASCAR TV audience. They don’t care to see a bunch of sissies in speedos duke it out to see who’s in the best shape. The TV market needs the excitement of watching someone risk life & limb. That’s entertainment! Excuse me if you find this blasphemous, but I think triathlon on TV is pretty boring. It’s just a little better than looking at race snapshots in a magazine. If they were all packaged as a major event, like IMH, then they might be palatable. My point is, I don’t feel the ITU is targeting me, the triathlete, with their shows. They want to keep the ESPN junky from getting up and turning the channel when a tri comes on. (Oops, am I dating myself? I know that nobody gets up to change the channel anymore.) Whew! That went on longer than planned. Chris

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some interesting things to think about drafting have been discussed in my shop and I’d like to get other’s insight. For the record, I AM AGAINST DRAFTING!!! But.. does drafting serve a purpose? will it get the sport some more attention. if you don’t like drafting then why don’t race directors have both drafting and non drafting races, obviously not a the same venue. With numbers being stagnant, and yes, this is a fact we must accept, obviously something needs to be done. I’ve watched my local race director take a bunch of heat this year and when it comes right down to it, "most" races brake even or lose money. No race is "very profitable."

stuff snipped any and all comments are welcome! Steve

– When I read through the RST posts ( I am a hardcore lurker) or even through a triathlon publication, I find I am always drawn to the longer distance events. Articles like Tribaby’s 1/2 ironman report, or the ironman postings from Canada or Hawaii, are far more interesting to me than Olympic or sprint level races because…., well I not entirely sure. The drama, the challenge, the fact that I am not brave enough to enter, I don’t know. The fact that there is an Olympic event for triathlon in my home town doesn’t really excite me, even though the setting is quite beautiful. I’d much rather see, or feeble mind willing, compete in the back blocks of some small town for several hours. I guess the triathletes I’ve met would much rather be out there burning lactic acid. So, to attract newcomers to the sport? – does the governing body put on a show with draft legal races? That may attract the curious but it wouldn’t bring in a lot of converts. The local trishop proprietor told me that the numbers applying for the longer races are up, discussion here about IMC confirms this, while the shorter events are supporting sagging numbers or disappearing altogether. Maybe the direction for the age-groupers is going to be in these longer distances, with fewer shorter events to initiate the unwary. As usual I’ve said more than I really know. Jim Mewkill North Carolina State University

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does drafting serve a purpose? will it get the sport some more attention. if you don’t like drafting then why don’t race directors have both drafting and non drafting races, obviously not a the same venue.

Good questions, good ideas.  *Maybe* drafting will get the sport more attention at some level (look at the ITGP series).  I have real doubts about how successful local draft-legal events would be, though.  However, if some folks WANT to race draft-legal events, let ‘em.  I just don’t happen to be one of those folks. With numbers being stagnant, and yes, this is a fact we must accept, obviously something needs to be done.

Agreed.  Something needs to be done, but I doubt that drafting is that "something".  But it *is* something to consider.  Again, I think what most folks are so pissed off about is that draft-legal races aren’t being "tried out"—- they’ve been established ipso facto by the ITU as THE format for major events.  Nobody had any say in the matter.  The ITU willed it, and so it came to be.  End of "discussion".  (ha) I’ve watched my local race director take a bunch of heat this year and when it comes right down to it, "most" races brake even or lose money. No race is "very profitable."

I can believe that!  It still amazes me and makes me exceedingly grateful that ANYBODY takes on the job of producing a triathlon.  I totally appreciate the work involved, and how little is probably gained in monetary terms. So, will having different drafting and non drafting races help to get numbers up? I surely dont know but as someone who hasn’t seen a drafting race, I don’t know how many people would sign up. Of course, I don’t want to see it but I also don’t want to see the sport stay where it is.

My take on it is that draft-legal races would be more likely to DIScourage newbies, not ENcourage them.  Guess what?  Pack racing is DANGEROUS. (Yes, that was purely rhetorical.  I know you all know this already.) Triathlon is already a pretty intimidating sport for the average Joe to contemplate; making the bike leg draft-legal would only be a further turn-off because of the danger involved. Have said it before, will say it again:  I got out of bike racing and into triathlon largely because I hated the non-stop tension of pack riding.  I admit it, I was a wimp!  The thought of going down in a massive pile-up always scared the bejeezus outta me, and I consider myself lucky to have gotten through almost 3 years of bike racing unscathed.  I got out before it caught up with me.  But now that damned annoying pack racing thing is following me into triathlon!  Urrrrgh. Draft-legal events such as the ITGP might stir some interest in the sport, but they might also scare potential newbies away from actually trying a tri.  One thing to note:  Was it Tom Ziebart who put on the Gatorade series in Florida?  Remember what he found when he tried having the races be draft-legal:  low turnout.  He switched back to draft-free the next year. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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Some interesting things to think about drafting have been discussed in my shop and I’d like to get other’s insight. For the record, I AM AGAINST DRAFTING!!! But.. does drafting serve a purpose? will it get the sport some more attention. if you don’t like drafting then why don’t race directors have both drafting and non drafting races, obviously not a the same venue. With numbers being stagnant, and yes, this is a fact we must accept, obviously something needs to be done. I’ve watched my local race director take a bunch of heat this year and when it comes right down to it, "most" races brake even or lose money. No race is "very profitable." I personally have no answers and am a bit burned out myself working on finding a solution. In my shop, I am seeing more and more "new" multisport athletes joining up and racing but still, the local numbers are down. It doesn’t make sense to me but numbers don’t lie. So, will having different drafting and non drafting races help to get numbers up? I surely dont know but as someone who hasn’t seen a drafting race, I don’t know how many people would sign up. Of course, I don’t want to see it but I also don’t want to see the sport stay where it is. Karen Smyers made some great points but didn’t necessarily have a solution any more then I do. any and all comments are welcome! Steve

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Question:

Anybody here participate in tris with canoeing instead of swimming? Have paddled in several, am interested in high end events (e.g. Great Race in upstate NY) Others?  Other paddlers in triathalons?   Consider this a "real" triathalon (there’s a rank piece of bait!) Tom

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Anybody here participate in tris with canoeing instead of swimming? Have paddled in several, am interested in high end events (e.g. Great Race in upstate NY) Others?  Other paddlers in triathalons?   Consider this a "real" triathalon (there’s a rank piece of bait!) Tom

I’m not sure of where any might be around here. I hear of them from time to time, usually after they are done. An ex-co worker did one recently, here in Ontario Canada. I know in New Zealand they’re fairly popular too. with divisions for kayaks, single or double canoes etc. Sort of a race what you brung deal. To answer your other question…..YES THEY’RE REAL TRIATHLONS. TriDork

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There’s a canoe/bike/run tri here in Ottawa, the Colonel By Triathlon.   It’s been running since 1979 (the organizers call it "North America’s Oldest Triathlon").  Anyways, it’s a big event, with various different vessel categories (single canoe, double canoe, kayak, etc.).  It’s usually held in late spring. I’ve never done it ’cause I only float when I’m swimming! Rob

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Anybody here participate in tris with canoeing instead of swimming? Have paddled in several, am interested in high end events (e.g. Great Race in upstate NY) Others?  Other paddlers in triathalons?   Consider this a "real" triathalon (there’s a rank piece of bait!) Tom

There’s one in Sacramento, CA, called Eppie’s Great Race that has a kayak leg down the American River (a relatively tame portion), held sometime in mid-summer. I haven’t done it, but know a few who have. Apparently, it draws a lot of spectators, who hang out on the bridges and banks. It’s been going on for several years, and from what I gather, it’s well run and a lot of fun.

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There are two races here in Cincinnati.  One in the Spring and one in the Fall, and they bill themselves as the second oldest triathlon in existence.   I’ve never done either, but they get alot of entrants while staying low key. There’s a canoe/bike/run tri here in Ottawa, the Colonel By Triathlon.   It’s been running since 1979 (the organizers call it "North America’s Oldest Triathlon").  Anyways, it’s a big event, with various different vessel categories (single canoe, double canoe, kayak, etc.).  It’s usually held in late spring. I’ve never done it ’cause I only float when I’m swimming! Rob

– Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://w3.one.net/~triweb

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody here participate in tris with canoeing instead of swimming? Have paddled in several, am interested in high end events (e.g. Great Race in upstate NY) Others?  Other paddlers in triathalons? Consider this a "real" triathalon (there’s a rank piece of bait!) Tom I’m not sure of where any might be around here. I hear of them from time to time, usually after they are done. An ex-co worker did one recently, here in Ontario Canada. I know in New Zealand they’re fairly popular too. with divisions for kayaks, single or double canoes etc. Sort of a race what you brung deal. To answer your other question…..YES THEY’RE REAL TRIATHLONS. TriDork

Also here in the UK. I’ve just completed the Scottish Coast to Coast, which was a ‘real’ kayak triathlon held over three days. We also have shorter races, and quadrathlons with swimming and kayaking. In fact a quick advert – I’m running a race in Worcester, England on 6th October, which will be 4 miles kayak, 14 miles cycle and 3 miles run. E-mail me for further details. Chris McSweeny, Quadrathlete

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I did this god awful event back in May in Maumee, Ohio near Toledo.   It was supposed to be a 9 mile canoe down the Maumee River followed by a 9 mile run carrying 30% of your body weight followed by a 25 mile bike. It had been raining so much that the race director moved the race to a state park almost 1 hour away from the original race site and seemed to tell everyone except my group of 4 people.  Imagine showing up at the race site and no one is there!  Youza! We found a park ranger who let us know the race was moved. I paddled the three 3 miles loops myself in a shorter canoe. This turned out to be quite a challenge because it was very windy that day.  My canoe did circles in the water at certain spots on the course.  Rather frustrating to be spinning around in a lake losing time. The hike was managable, but I had the wrong kind of backpack. I didn’t have the kind with a metal frame.  Try carrying 30lbs. around with you for 2 hours.  The 9 mile run turned out to be a 9 mile hike/fast walk.  My wife walked a loop with me so it wasn’t all that boring. The last part of the race was the 25 mile bike (which turned out to be 28.5 miles).  Again, the wind was brutal.  I think miles 4 thru 16 were directly into a nasty headwind.  I don’t think my speed went above 15 mph.  Of course, the last part of the bike had a tail wind and I was flyin’!   The whole stinkin’ event took me 5hrs45min to complete.  The official timer was a joke.  It was this old guy sitting on a bench trying to keep track of all the racers.  I had to walk up to him and tell him I was done.   Overall, this race was very unorganized and not too much fun. Snarky this morning, Scott — =         __o       Scott J. Erdman        Allen-Bradley Company      = =     (_)/_(_)/ o                         Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 = =  _        / <| "I M TRI N"            voice (216)646-3698        = =___o_    /  _                         fax   (216)646-3076        =

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody here participate in tris with canoeing instead of swimming? Have paddled in several, am interested in high end events (e.g. Great Race in upstate NY) Others?  Other paddlers in triathalons? Consider this a "real" triathalon (there’s a rank piece of bait!) Tom I’m not sure of where any might be around here. I hear of them from time to time, usually after they are done. An ex-co worker did one recently, here in Ontario Canada. I know in New Zealand they’re fairly popular too. with divisions for kayaks, single or double canoes etc. Sort of a race what you brung deal. To answer your other question…..YES THEY’RE REAL TRIATHLONS. TriDork Also here in the UK. I’ve just completed the Scottish Coast to Coast, which was a ‘real’ kayak triathlon held over three days. We also have shorter races, and quadrathlons with swimming and kayaking. In fact a quick advert – I’m running a race in Worcester, England on 6th October, which will be 4 miles kayak, 14 miles cycle and 3 miles run. E-mail me for further details. Chris McSweeny, Quadrathlete

In Western Australia too. We have some relay events which can also be done as an individual. Moodiarrup Marathon Relay 12 km run 12 km canoe 1 km swim 25 km horse ride ( optional ) 26 km bike Blackwood Marathon Relay 12 km run 7 km canoe 1.2 km swim 16 km horse ride 26 km bike Donnybrook Marathon Relay 40 km bike 4 km walk 1.5 km swim 7 km canoe 24 km mountain bike     12 km run

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Peaks to Prairie in Montana is a great one.  8.8 mile run to Red Lodge (near Billings), 40 mile fairly flat bike to the Yellowstone River, then a 20 mile paddle from Laurel to Billings.  It’s held the last week in April.  The down side is that it has a tendency to get cancelled for the same reason that skiing is so great at Red Lodge — winter can last too long. I figure that the race has a 50/50 chance of being held (reviewing past history).  First Bank in Billings is the sponsor.  

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Question:

On NPR this morning  (1/29) a Philadelphia-area reporter mentioned the fact that the eccentric alleged murderer of Olympics-bound wrestler Schultz, multimillionaire John DuPont, a longtime sport supporter, had at one time sponsored a group of elite triathletes before pulling the plug on this support.  Does anyone know this story?  Who were the athletes he supported?  Was it an official team?  When did this occurr?   Tucker Newberry

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On NPR this morning  (1/29) a Philadelphia-area reporter mentioned the fact that the eccentric alleged murderer of Olympics-bound wrestler Schultz, multimillionaire John DuPont, a longtime sport supporter, had at one time sponsored a group of elite triathletes before pulling the plug on this support.  Does anyone know this story?  Who were the athletes he supported?  Was it an official team?  When did this occurr?  

I received $1500 dollars from John DuPont for my participation in the World’s Championships held in France, 1989.  Others also received that amount. Ruth Kazez

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On NPR this morning  (1/29) a Philadelphia-area reporter mentioned the fact that the eccentric alleged murderer of Olympics-bound wrestler Schultz, multimillionaire John DuPont, a longtime sport supporter, had at one time sponsored a group of elite triathletes before pulling the plug on this support.  Does anyone know this story?  Who were the athletes he supported?  Was it an official team?  When did this occurr?  

Team Foxcatcher, Joy Hansen, Ken Glah, Steve Fitch, Jeff Devlin I think, I’m not sure who else. Ironic, the first Benevolent despot to triathlon, "J. David" Dominelli, gets out of prison, the second, John du Pont, goes in one week later. QRman

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Team Foxcatcher, Joy Hansen, Ken Glah, Steve Fitch, Jeff Devlin I think, I’m not sure who else. Ironic, the first Benevolent despot to triathlon, "J. David" Dominelli, gets out of prison, the second, John du Pont, goes in one week later. QRman

Also Brooks Clark,  the Girard twins and Kirsten Hannsen. He donated at least $50,000 to the 1990 ITU World Championship, then had a severe falling out with race organizers and Tri-Fed.  Sometime later the tri team was disbanded. He was on the cover of Tri-Athlete magazine in the early 80s. He wrote a book called Never Give Up. In it is a chapter on the man he allegedly killed. — JJ Jeffrey Justice Oceanside, CA

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I believe Ken Glah was part of the Team Foxcatcher athletic group he had for triathletes a few years back.

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Did he sponsor a triathlon team called "Foxcatcher" or something like that?  I was listening to NPR this morning and they mentioned in a profile of Dupont that he sponsored a "team Foxcatcher" for elite swimmers. Gary

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Did he sponsor a triathlon team called "Foxcatcher" or something like that?  I was listening to NPR this morning and they mentioned in a profile of Dupont that he sponsored a "team Foxcatcher" for elite swimmers.

Yes. I was going to post something to this effect, too. Tragic, eh? My years could be wrong, but I think about 7-8 years ago there was a group of "Foxcatcher" triathletes — Joy Hansen was one of them. Katherine Williams

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On a related note, the Washington Post (1/29/96) reported that John du Pont was "the father" of triathlon.  Is there any way that is true? Scott Powell

He claims to have held the first event called a "triathlon."  It wasn’t swim, bike, run. It was in the 60s and he has inscribed momentos to prove it. He has a few chapters in his book about Joy Hansen and Kirsten Hannsen. — JJ Jeffrey Justice Oceanside, CA

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On a related note, the Washington Post (1/29/96) reported that John du Pont was "the father" of triathlon.  Is there any way that is true? Scott Powell

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never was sponsored by him. but spent  a whole day with duPont at the Foxcatcher estate in 1986. i even wrote a cover storyon him  for tri-athlete. i even got to meet "mom." he struck me at the time as yes, charitable, but a bit off, like an anthony perkins character in "psycho" So rich and very sad at the same time. i talked to duPont a year ago. he was paranoid and didn’t want anything to do with triathlon ever again. being the vulture I am, well, if anyone wants to read the profile i wrote a decade ago, fax me a request at 415-331-0523.

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being the vulture I am, well, if anyone wants to read the profile i wrote a decade ago, fax me a request at 415-331-0523.<<

Yes, I’d like to see that story. That cover is now a classic. Jeffrey Justice 1036 S. Pacific #2 Oceanside, CA 92054 — JJ Jeffrey Justice Oceanside, CA

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I went to school at West Chester Univ. in PA(20 min. from DE) in 1988 and J. DuPont sponsored Team Foxcatcher was well known in the area .  In fact, Ken Glah, Steve Fitch, Brooks Clark, Joy Hanson, Fred Kleven (pro- biathlete) and eventually Jeff Devlin all lived in town.  Quite a collection of triathletes in the North East!  Old timers will remember numerous top-5 U.S.T.S. finishes by these folks. Yep… the multi-sport "mecca" of the east at one time! -Troy Jacobson

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: Did he sponsor a triathlon team called "Foxcatcher" or something like : that?  I was listening to NPR this morning and they mentioned in a profile : of Dupont that he sponsored a "team Foxcatcher" for elite swimmers. Foxcatcher was indeed an elite swim club, at least through the early ’80s when I was swimming in the area.  They were the envy of all most other clubs because they had unfettered access to Dupont’s indoor 50 meter pool, one of only two in the Philadelphia area (Penn has the other).  I believe Team Foxcatcher later merged with Germantown Academy’s USS swim club, which had since passed them with several world record holders (e.g., David Wharton in the 400 IM).  As I vaguely recall Dupont had aspirations of being (or was) a pentathlete, hence the pool.  There was no discussion at the time that the guy was a wacko.

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As I vaguely recall Dupont had aspirations of

being (or was) a pentathlete, hence the pool.  There was no discussion at the time that the guy was a wacko.<< I remember a big article in Sports Illustrated in the early 70s about DuPont and his 50 meter pool, used at the time by the US Modern Pentathlon team and DuPont himself, for his training in trying to make the team.  It was quite a positive story. I wondered what happened to him. Now I know. Amazing. The only way it would make sense would be if he were found to have a brain tumor, or something. -Larry

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okay.

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