Question:

Perhaps you should differentiate between meat and pie.  I prefer meat.  Others may prefer pie. Fr. G – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If your sleep pattern effects your commitment to  maintain a fulfilled sex life you might find you have to stand in line if you come home unexpectedly for lunch. I don’t know any *normal man that wouldn’t give up some sleep for some pussy. *Yes I know, that disqualifies most of the homos here. Bill R. OO

Response:

Others may prefer pie.

Hair pie? Bill R. OO                                    

Response:

Mine decreased by 25% after starting running. I suspect all that blood churning cleans up waste.

During HEAVY training I get a noticeable decrease in sleep too, but it’s because you sleep more soundly, and has nothing to do with wastes. Sleep has nothing to do with wastes, so I don’t know why you make a connection between the two. Meditation has a similar cleansing effect. Sometimes running can be like meditation.

Oh fer christs sakes.. Now I know how you made the connection, you’re an idiot. Bill R. OO                                    

Response:

If your sleep pattern effects your commitment to  maintain a fulfilled sex life you might find you have to stand in line if you come home unexpectedly for lunch.

I don’t know any *normal man that wouldn’t give up some sleep for some pussy. *Yes I know, that disqualifies most of the homos here. Bill R. OO                                    

Response:

guys i have a question?? how many of yall are married?? reason is how does maRRIAGE and sleep go together i am single and run like a big dog and sleep like 8-10 hours which i know i would not be able to if a was married

An why not? Find a partner that does not have a problem with your sleep habits. Unless you plan to try an arranged marriage you should nail this down in training, er, courting. If your sleep pattern effects your commitment to  maintain a fulfilled sex life you might find you have to stand in line if you come home unexpectedly for lunch. Maybe with some nookie you might sleep deeper and need less sleep. Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

My husband forces himself on me all the time

Tell us more… is it good? Do you climax? Does he? Where’s he drop his load? How long does it take? Bill R. OO                                    

Response:

Hey zilla, marriage and sleep do not go together.  My husband forces himself on me all the time.

Are you bragging or complaining? — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

Mine decreased by 25% after starting running. I suspect all that blood churning cleans up waste. Meditation has a similar cleansing effect. Sometimes running can be like meditation.

Response:

Would you like me to wear the nun’s outfit to bed tonight, honey?

yes, but only if you bring the nun. Bill R. OO                                    

Response:

Hey Michelle, does your husband make you have sex before, during, or after sleep.

The answer in my case is "yes", I force her during all of the above. Mine wakes me up in the middle of the night and then pokes me hard.

For how long? A quickie, or a longie? Also, how big is it? Do you have kids? Once your puss is stretched out it’s never quite the same. Bill R. OO                                    

Response:

Hey zilla, marriage and sleep do not go together.  My husband forces himself on me all the time. Stef – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – guys i have a question?? how many of yall are married?? reason is how does maRRIAGE and sleep go together i am single and run like a big dog and sleep like 8-10 hours which i know i would not be able to if a was married plodzilla

Response:

Hey Michelle, does your husband make you have sex before, during, or after sleep.  Mine wakes me up in the middle of the night and then pokes me hard. Stef – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is normal? Having asked my running friends it definitely seems that it is normal to need more sleep when running lots but a minimum of 9 hours still seems like quite alot to me. I would like to hear other peoples experiences on this topic. Stef,     Increased training does seem to change my sleep needs.  While running my usual 30-35 miles per week I need about 7 hours and tend to wake after that time even if I think I might try sleeping later.  Now that I’m up to 45-50 miles per week in marathon training I will not awaken for about 8 hours.     Sleep is so important, not only for runners, but for everyone.  Keep listening to your body.  It will tell you what it needs, and that is "normal" for you. Michelle

Response:

guys i have a question?? how many of yall are married?? reason is how does maRRIAGE and sleep go together i am single and run like a big dog and sleep like 8-10 hours which i know i would not be able to if a was married plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sleep is an issue which I have always wondered about. I have been running for quite along time (18 years) and have always found I need a huge amount of sleep. From the beginning of this year I have trained pretty hard building up to 100km a week in 5 weeks and then having about 2 months of biggish running, averaging about 120km per week (topping out at 140km in one week) before tapering and running a 56km ultra, followed 2 weeks later by a marathon. I find I need at least 9 hours of sleep a night but could easily handle more (if I didn’t have to work everyday). What is normal? Having asked my running friends it definitely seems that it is normal to need more sleep when running lots but a minimum of 9 hours still seems like quite alot to me. I would like to hear other peoples experiences on this topic.

Response:

i am single and run like a big dog and sleep like 8-10 hours which i know i would not be able to if a was married

Why not? Is your future wife into sleep-depravation torture? When you want some pussy you just go to bed earlier, 6 hours earlier in my case, but that varys. Besides, if this is going to be a determining factor about wether you get married or not then she’s not the right girl (or guy dressed in drag) for you. Bill R. OO                                    

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I wish you would have opted for a nap, instead of posting this insipid query.  

Response:

I wish you would have opted for a nap, instead of posting this insipid query.

Yes, but in doing so he contributed far more to the overall cause by putting everyone who read it to sleep… Bill R. OO                                    

Response:

Would you like me to wear the nun’s outfit to bed tonight, honey? Fr. G – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am single and run like a big dog and sleep like 8-10 hours which i know i would not be able to if a was married Why not? Is your future wife into sleep-depravation torture? When you want some pussy you just go to bed earlier, 6 hours earlier in my case, but that varys. Besides, if this is going to be a determining factor about wether you get married or not then she’s not the right girl (or guy dressed in drag) for you. Bill R. OO

Response:

guys i have a question?? how many of yall are married?? reason is how does maRRIAGE and sleep go together i am single and run like a big dog and sleep like 8-10 hours which i know i would not be able to if a was married plodzilla

Um…..huh? Marriage isn’t ipso facto an impediment to getting 8-10 hours of sleep. (Having babies and young children around generally *is*, but that’s not the same thing, despite what the childhood taunting rhyme tell us….) Most married couples don’t generally have the exact same sleep patterns. Not sure why you’d have that impression…. — Shalom, Peace, Salaam George Grattan (This post is intended for a Usenet newsgroup only. Its appearance in any other forum that does not clearly identify it as originally posted to Usenet is therefore a misrepresentation, is done against my wishes, and may indicate other unauthorized distortions of content and/or context. Correctly attributed and/or unedited copies of this post in other forums do not necessarily indicate my willing participation in them.)

Response:

What is normal? Having asked my running friends it definitely seems that it is normal to need more sleep when running lots but a minimum of 9 hours still seems like quite alot to me. I would like to hear other peoples experiences on this topic.

Stef,     Increased training does seem to change my sleep needs.  While running my usual 30-35 miles per week I need about 7 hours and tend to wake after that time even if I think I might try sleeping later.  Now that I’m up to 45-50 miles per week in marathon training I will not awaken for about 8 hours.     Sleep is so important, not only for runners, but for everyone.  Keep listening to your body.  It will tell you what it needs, and that is "normal" for you. Michelle

Response:

What is normal? Having asked my running friends it definitely seems that it is normal to need more sleep when running lots but a minimum of 9 hours still seems like quite alot to me. I would like to hear other peoples experiences on this topic.

I don’t know what’s "normal" but I’m certain that too little sleep destroys your performance fairly quickly. Earlier this year, after about a month’s worth of 4-5 hours a night average, I did a 1:26+ half marathon when aiming at a sub-1:20 (did 1:22 last Autumn). I actually ran slightly slower over the 21k than I did over 42k in November. I suspect that, up to a point, the more time you can spend lolling around or dozing, the better. Eat, sleep, nap, laze around and train = excellent performances.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sleep is an issue which I have always wondered about. I have been running for quite along time (18 years) and have always found I need a huge amount of sleep. From the beginning of this year I have trained pretty hard building up to 100km a week in 5 weeks and then having about 2 months of biggish running, averaging about 120km per week (topping out at 140km in one week) before tapering and running a 56km ultra, followed 2 weeks later by a marathon. I find I need at least 9 hours of sleep a night but could easily handle more (if I didn’t have to work everyday). What is normal? Having asked my running friends it definitely seems that it is normal to need more sleep when running lots but a minimum of 9 hours still seems like quite alot to me. I would like to hear other peoples experiences on this topic.

The most dominating distance runner in the world today, Hicham El Guerrouj, sleeps 11 hours a day: 8 hours at night and another 3 hours of forced sleep in the afternoon. I find a direct relationship between how hard I am training and how much sleep I need.  During a 1-2 month break in the fall (no running) I need 7-8 hours. During really hard training, I need 9+.  I’ll bet that everyone here who actually trains hard will have sleep requirements similiar to yours. If you restrict your sleep, you will increase your recovery time from training. Lyndon "Speed Kills…It kills those that don’t have it!"  –US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

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Everybody is different. I get by on little more than 7 per night now that I’m running 30 miles (50k) per week. I also cycle once or twice a week in addition to riding my bicycle to work. Back in my triathlon days I would run, bike and swim for hours a week and would need at least 8 hours of sleep. In addition once or twice per month I would get home from work at 5pm and be sound asleep at 6pm and wouldn’t wake until 12 hours later. I nap most days after work for 20 minutes. Andy

Response:

Hi, Stef. My sleep needs seem to fluctuate moderately with the amount and intensity of my training mileage. Right now, when I am in a lull/rest phase with light mileage after several hard months that included two marathons, one half and a 50-miler, I am comfortable getting only about 7 hours per night. During that hard training phase I needed at least 8 and usually augmented that with two short naps during the day, 9 a night was even better. Also seems that sleep needs vary somewhat with age. I need less sleep now in my late 40s than I did in my teens and 20s. By the way, not running related but an interesting book is "Sleep Thieves," about sleep needs and practices both in the animal kingdom and in humans. The author argues, among other things, that we are evolved to sleep much longer at night than we do and that city lighting, television and other constant night events leave most people in the developed world sleep deprived. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sleep is an issue which I have always wondered about. I have been running for quite along time (18 years) and have always found I need a huge amount of sleep. From the beginning of this year I have trained pretty hard building up to 100km a week in 5 weeks and then having about 2 months of biggish running, averaging about 120km per week (topping out at 140km in one week) before tapering and running a 56km ultra, followed 2 weeks later by a marathon. I find I need at least 9 hours of sleep a night but could easily handle more (if I didn’t have to work everyday). What is normal? Having asked my running friends it definitely seems that it is normal to need more sleep when running lots but a minimum of 9 hours still seems like quite alot to me. I would like to hear other peoples experiences on this topic.

Response:

While I was training seriously, I would try and make sure I got 7 hrs a night.  Now that I am not, I get by with anywhere between 5 and 6.5. Sleep is IMO an essential part of training.  But something that is entirely individual. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sleep is an issue which I have always wondered about. I have been running for quite along time (18 years) and have always found I need a huge amount of sleep. From the beginning of this year I have trained pretty hard building up to 100km a week in 5 weeks and then having about 2 months of biggish running, averaging about 120km per week (topping out at 140km in one week) before tapering and running a 56km ultra, followed 2 weeks later by a marathon. I find I need at least 9 hours of sleep a night but could easily handle more (if I didn’t have to work everyday). What is normal? Having asked my running friends it definitely seems that it is normal to need more sleep when running lots but a minimum of 9 hours still seems like quite alot to me. I would like to hear other peoples experiences on this topic.

Response:

Sleep is an issue which I have always wondered about. I have been running for quite along time (18 years) and have always found I need a huge amount of sleep. From the beginning of this year I have trained pretty hard building up to 100km a week in 5 weeks and then having about 2 months of biggish running, averaging about 120km per week (topping out at 140km in one week) before tapering and running a 56km ultra, followed 2 weeks later by a marathon. I find I need at least 9 hours of sleep a night but could easily handle more (if I didn’t have to work everyday). What is normal? Having asked my running friends it definitely seems that it is normal to need more sleep when running lots but a minimum of 9 hours still seems like quite alot to me. I would like to hear other peoples experiences on this topic.

Response:

Question:

Yes I agree the low drag is what I looked at too and it looked questionable. But  I’m gonna try one of those things they do look good for open water swimming. I don’t think I’d wear one for pool competitions though. Its hard enough keeping the goggles on when diving off the blocks.

Response:

I like the bit about the 180 degree visibility. Is that for frogs and Gecko’s ? I though our eyesite was limited to50-60 degrees left and right of each eye without turning your head. Lloyd — Deewal Pty Ltd. web:          http://www.deewal.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to the site and had a look, the image on: http://www.sealmask.com/benefits.htm Under which it says "low drag in the water" struck me, perhaps I should try swimming vertically? Phil | Have you tried the revolutionary Seal Swim Mask? | This is an unique opportunity for you to race with the Seal Mask and be | eligible for our Cash Bonus Program! To be eligible, you must | participate in the Isuzu Ironman California on May 20, 2000, race with | the Seal Mask and finish in one of the categories listed below for the | swim event. | | First out of the water with a Seal Mask on-$1,500 | #2 to #5 out of the water with a Seal Mask on-$800 each | #6 to #10 out of the water with a Seal Mask on-$500 each | #11 to #20 out of the water with a Seal Mask on-Aqua Lung dive gear bag | Anyone racing with the Seal Mask Seal Mask gets a T-shirt | | Certain restrictions may apply. | Visit: www.sealmask.com for more information! | | Seal Mask: New Solution in Swimming Eyewear | | VISTA, Calif., May 5-Offering a new solution for swimming eyewear in | the water, the innovative Seal Mask is the first to offer the comfort | and visibility of a diving mask with the streamlined design of a swim | goggle. Developed by Aqua Sphere and distributed by U.S. Divers, the | Seal Mask provides a streamlined design coupled with excellent comfort. | The wrap-around lens is hydrodynamic and allows nearly 180 degrees of | panoramic vision, both under and above water-with virtually no view | distortion. A traditional goggle allows only 70 degrees of vision. | | The Seal Mask: |

Question:

 I would be interested in running a 10 K race this summer. I am a competitive road cyclist and swimmer already, and I think that if I could run a decent 10 K I would be very competitive in triathlons. I’ve always wanted to do a triathlon, but running has always been a weakness for me.

Weakness? meaning you don’t like it or not as good at it as your swimming and cycling? Mike Tennant could help you with this. You got to turn this weakness into a strength.! Laurie

Response:

This is an extra credit assignment for Dr.Olsens BIS 3330 class. I would be interested in running a 10 K race this summer. I am a competitive road cyclist and swimmer already,  and I think that if I could run a decent 10 K I would be very competitive in triathlons. I’ve always wanted to do a triathlon, but running has always been a weakness for me.

Response:

Question:

Same with my pain – the top and outside of the left foot.  I called NB and they are trading me for some 902s, which the NB rep suggested. Good luck – I suppose that this is not THE Dave Scott is it??? Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s interesting that you mentioned about the NB 852s.  I have recently been increasing my distance with them and ever since I passed 15mi. I have been having foot and leg problems.  I feel it’s the shoe, I’m not sure about your situation.  But it makes me think. I’m going to change back to my old shoes  and see if things clear up.  Good luck with the Ironman. dave Okay, I know this was really dumb to do but I am hoping I can get some feedback from you guys. I ran the RnR marathon over the weekend and it was my first.  I’m a triathlete and my longest run had been 3 hours up until then.  I felt great and hit 1/2 at 2:00.  When I hit 20, I stopped for a second to stretch and when I took a step, both knees felt like they had knives in them.  This was at 3:10.  For the last 10k I had to walk/limp/shuffle to finish in 4:57.  My ankles and knees were trashed (they finally feel better today).  Here’s the dumb thing: When I packed for the race, I grabbed one New Balance and one Nike – DOH!  The New Balances (852s) hurt my left foot after ~15mi so I didn’t want to run with them.  Guess which one I had for my left – yep NB. So were the shoes the cause or do I just need more miles?  I have an Ironman length race at the end of July that I am hoping to get my knees conditioned for.  Any feedback would be welcome. Thanks, Bill Jamison P.S.  The NB rep traded me for a set of 902s that feel MUCH better…

Response:

So were the shoes the cause or do I just need more miles?  I have an Ironman length race at the end of July that I am hoping to get my knees conditioned for.  Any feedback would be welcome.

Hi Bill: It was probably a combination. Since your IM is so close,  you really don’t have time to resolve this, so do NOT make the mistake of pouring on a lot of running miles over what you already had planned. At this point in your training you should be almost maxed out each week, anyway. Adding more mileage might be harmful. Since this is your first IM, I hope you’re taking the safe approach and planning to finish it, not RACE it.  That will help your knees IF you’ll resolve to take some walking breaks to give your knees a rest. It wasn’t much of an ego issue with me, since I’d planned to walk a lot at IMC last year anyway. But I had similar knee problems from about 16 miles on and ended up adopting a strategy that got me in. You know that you definitely may have a problem with your knees late in the race. There’s not enough time before the race to do anything concrete. So I’d strongly suggest adopting a race strategy to minimize the problem. And that means walking early on – at least at the aid stations – more if needed. If the early walking keeps the knees from going on you like at RnR, you’ll end up with a faster overall pace than if they give out and you end up hobbled. You’re going to have enough problems as it is. Since you know you may have a weakness, plan around it. Maximize your chances through smart strategy, not rolling the dice and hoping. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03

Response:

That’s interesting that you mentioned about the NB 852s.  I have recently been increasing my distance with them and ever since I passed 15mi. I have been having foot and leg problems.  I feel it’s the shoe, I’m not sure about your situation.  But it makes me think. I’m going to change back to my old shoes  and see if things clear up.  Good luck with the Ironman. dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I know this was really dumb to do but I am hoping I can get some feedback from you guys. I ran the RnR marathon over the weekend and it was my first.  I’m a triathlete and my longest run had been 3 hours up until then.  I felt great and hit 1/2 at 2:00.  When I hit 20, I stopped for a second to stretch and when I took a step, both knees felt like they had knives in them.  This was at 3:10.  For the last 10k I had to walk/limp/shuffle to finish in 4:57.  My ankles and knees were trashed (they finally feel better today).  Here’s the dumb thing: When I packed for the race, I grabbed one New Balance and one Nike – DOH!  The New Balances (852s) hurt my left foot after ~15mi so I didn’t want to run with them.  Guess which one I had for my left – yep NB. So were the shoes the cause or do I just need more miles?  I have an Ironman length race at the end of July that I am hoping to get my knees conditioned for.  Any feedback would be welcome. Thanks, Bill Jamison P.S.  The NB rep traded me for a set of 902s that feel MUCH better…

Response:

Okay, I know this was really dumb to do but I am hoping I can get some feedback from you guys. I ran the RnR marathon over the weekend and it was my first.  I’m a triathlete and my longest run had been 3 hours up until then.  I felt great and hit 1/2 at 2:00.  When I hit 20, I stopped for a second to stretch and when I took a step, both knees felt like they had knives in them.  This was at 3:10.  For the last 10k I had to walk/limp/shuffle to finish in 4:57.  My ankles and knees were trashed (they finally feel better today).  Here’s the dumb thing: When I packed for the race, I grabbed one New Balance and one Nike – DOH!  The New Balances (852s) hurt my left foot after ~15mi so I didn’t want to run with them.  Guess which one I had for my left – yep NB. So were the shoes the cause or do I just need more miles?  I have an Ironman length race at the end of July that I am hoping to get my knees conditioned for.  Any feedback would be welcome. Thanks, Bill Jamison P.S.  The NB rep traded me for a set of 902s that feel MUCH better…

Response:

Question:

It’s funny that a lot of things that had to be taken off the grey market car are now standard on many American cars, like headlight bulbs instead of sealed beams. Dave B.

In fact there are dealers that specialize on agilizing the buy of a car in the original country (Volvo-Sweden, BMW – Germany). It includes the trip to the country incolved where you buy the car at a realtively lower price and generally better standard equippment that in the US. Anybody organizing trips to Italy to buy Colnagos?

Response:

I had a neighbor once who sold gray market Mercedes cars. He’d park half a dozen of the damn things in his backyard, and move them in and out in dead of night, right by my bedroom window. I learned a lot about gray market enforcement. Finally got him on a zoning violation. They were real Mercedes cars, but they were intended for the Mexican market and did not have the proper safety equipment as required in the U.S. Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

  I had a neighbor who did the same thing.  Back in the early/mid 80’s when the dollar was strong compared to the mark, grey market Benz’s where quite popular.  He mostly brought over used Benz’s, fitting them to meet American standards for emissions, lighting, etc.  As I remember, the speedometers had to be changed to show MPH, sealed beam headlights and new bumpers had to be installed.  At the time, these car’s where seen as unique and in high demand.  It was quite trendy, once the car passed US standards and was titled, to reinstall the original equipment to make the car stand out as a grey market car. It’s funny that a lot of things that had to be taken off the grey market car are now standard on many American cars, like headlight bulbs instead of sealed beams. Dave B.

Response:

Tks to both of u for the lesson, and for not flaming me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is a "grey market" bike.  Something that is not quite black market.  How can it be called a QR if it is not an licensed bike?  If it a true oriental knockoff (patent violation) then I would assume it to be a black market product. Not a patent violation, unless Dan owns a patent on some key design feature. A trademark violation, yes. Generally, the term "gray market" applies to products made for foreign sales that are imported to the U.S. to compete with the same manufacturer’s product intended for the U.S. market. Usually, the U.S. product is pricier because of something or another (equal parts regulation, market demands for features, and product liability concerns). The gray market product is still made by the manufacturer in question. I had a neighbor once who sold gray market Mercedes cars. He’d park half a dozen of the damn things in his backyard, and move them in and out in dead of night, right by my bedroom window. I learned a lot about gray market enforcement. Finally got him on a zoning violation. They were real Mercedes cars, but they were intended for the Mexican market and did not have the proper safety equipment as required in the U.S. Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

Response:

A "grey market" bike, like a "grey market" automobile, is a product that is developed for a certain geographic market that has been brought into another market without authorization of the manufacturer. This circumvents authorized distributors and dealers, and usually voids all warrantees that are available in the intended market. There are many auto models that are available in Europe and Asia that cannot be bought in the US because the manufacturer chooses not to sell them here (and vice versa). To purchase one and import it may not be illegal (black market), but as an unauthorized product, your local dealer would probably not even touch it. Dan would not want someone to purchase one of these "Volt" models in the US (and rightly so) because to encourage this would endanger his relationships he has built through the years with his authorized dealer network and valued customers. Cheers, Andrew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is a "grey market" bike.  Something that is not quite black market. How can it be called a QR if it is not an licensed bike?  If it a true oriental knockoff (patent violation) then I would assume it to be a black market product.                 I have a QR VOLT SL which I have been told by QRman some time ago was  a "fine bike". I am certainly happy with it. I had a Illuminaero fork addd as well so it is kinda of  real QR. Having said that the guy who sold it to me, a very reputable dealer said the VOLT SL was better than the Kilo, whether that was a sales pitch or not I don’t know. A nice triathlon frame for $300 isn’t bad at all. I made my frame up into a bike that tips the scales a few grams over 9 kg!! it was a fine bike.  here are the aggravating factors: 1.  it is not built of easton, but of taiwan, #7005 tubing, which is just not as stiff. 2.  it is built in taiwan, not a horrible thing, but not to the quality of our US made bikes. 3.  it comes with no warranty. 4.  it is a grey market bike, and it’s going to take us awhile to get this guy out of the market.  so every time i see a triathlete at a race who buys this grey  market bike i’m going to give them the stinkeye. here are the mitigating factors: 1.  it once was a legitimate qr bike, for the entry level german and japanese tri markets. 2.  it is built to our exact geometry. 3.  if you didn’t know you were buying a grey market bike when you bought it, i’ll take back my stinkeye. qrman

– Andrew Peabody Miami

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4.  it is a grey market bike, and it’s going to take us awhile to get this guy out of the market.  so every time i see a triathlete at a race who buys this grey  market bike i’m going to give them the stinkeye. 3.  if you didn’t know you were buying a grey market bike when you bought it, i’ll take back my stinkeye. qrman HI Dan,            I am curious, whats stinkeye?? Does it hurt??? You wanna get rid of all Chris Oh and check out the homepage, theres a nie section on my bike

Chris,  Since your e-mail address indicates you are in Germany, your bike is not a "grey market" bike. It was intended, as Dan posted earlier, for the German and Japanese markets. It is only considered "grey market" if offered for sale outside of it’s intended market in competition with products manufactured for that market. No stinkeye for you. Cheers, Andrew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Chris Carpenter at the Max-Planck-Insitut fuer Polymerforschung voice: +49 6131 379217           : Quintana Roo, Just Roo it!!! fax:   +49 6131 379100           : Saucony,  Loyal to the sport www:   http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/~chrisc Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" <HTML <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE&nbsp; <BR4.&nbsp; it is a grey market bike, and it’s going to take us awhile to get this <BRguy out of the market.&nbsp; so every time i see a triathlete at a race who <BRbuys this grey&nbsp; market bike i’m going to give them the stinkeye. <BR&nbsp; <BR&nbsp; <P3.&nbsp; if you didn’t know you were buying a grey market bike when you bought <BRit, i’ll take back my stinkeye. <Pqrman</BLOCKQUOTE HI Dan, <BR&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am curious, whats stinkeye?? Does it hurt??? You wanna get rid of all <BR&nbsp; <PChris <BROh and check out the homepage, theres a nie section on my bike <PRE–&nbsp; Chris Carpenter at the Max-Planck-Insitut fuer Polymerforschung voice: +49 6131

379217&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Quintana Roo, Just Roo it!!! fax:&nbsp;&nbsp; +49 6131

379100&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Saucony,&nbsp; Loyal to the sport www:&nbsp;&nbsp; <A

HREF="http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/~chrisc"http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/~chrisc</A</PRE <PRE</PRE &nbsp;</HTML

– Andrew Peabody Miami

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An interesting example of grey market is the new Volkswagen Beetle.  Just how German can you get if not a Beetle?  But they are made in Mexico and not sold (yet) in Germany.  Some enterprising souls actually sent some of the first new Beetles to Germany and sold them for a profit.  Go figure… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A "grey market" bike, like a "grey market" automobile, is a product that is developed for a certain geographic market that has been brought into another market without authorization of the manufacturer. This circumvents authorized distributors and dealers, and usually voids all warrantees that are available in the intended market. There are many auto models that are available in Europe and Asia that cannot be bought in the US because the manufacturer chooses not to sell them here (and vice versa). To purchase one and import it may not be illegal (black market), but as an unauthorized product, your local dealer would probably not even touch it. Dan would not want someone to purchase one of these "Volt" models in the US (and rightly so) because to encourage this would endanger his relationships he has built through the years with his authorized dealer network and valued customers. Cheers, Andrew What is a "grey market" bike.  Something that is not quite black market. How can it be called a QR if it is not an licensed bike?  If it a true oriental knockoff (patent violation) then I would assume it to be a black market product.                 I have a QR VOLT SL which I have been told by QRman some time ago was  a "fine bike". I am certainly happy with it. I had a Illuminaero fork addd as well so it is kinda of  real QR. Having said that the guy who sold it to me, a very reputable dealer said the VOLT SL was better than the Kilo, whether that was a sales pitch or not I don’t know. A nice triathlon frame for $300 isn’t bad at all. I made my frame up into a bike that tips the scales a few grams over 9 kg!! it was a fine bike.  here are the aggravating factors: 1.  it is not built of easton, but of taiwan, #7005 tubing, which is just not as stiff. 2.  it is built in taiwan, not a horrible thing, but not to the quality of our US made bikes. 3.  it comes with no warranty. 4.  it is a grey market bike, and it’s going to take us awhile to get this guy out of the market.  so every time i see a triathlete at a race who buys this grey  market bike i’m going to give them the stinkeye. here are the mitigating factors: 1.  it once was a legitimate qr bike, for the entry level german and japanese tri markets. 2.  it is built to our exact geometry. 3.  if you didn’t know you were buying a grey market bike when you bought it, i’ll take back my stinkeye. qrman — Andrew Peabody Miami

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4.  it is a grey market bike, and it’s going to take us awhile to get this guy out of the market.  so every time i see a triathlete at a race who buys this grey  market bike i’m going to give them the stinkeye. 3.  if you didn’t know you were buying a grey market bike when you bought it, i’ll take back my stinkeye. qrman

HI Dan,             I am curious, whats stinkeye?? Does it hurt??? You wanna get rid of all Chris Oh and check out the homepage, theres a nie section on my bike — Chris Carpenter at the Max-Planck-Insitut fuer Polymerforschung voice: +49 6131 379217           : Quintana Roo, Just Roo it!!! fax:   +49 6131 379100           : Saucony,  Loyal to the sport www:   http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/~chrisc

Response:

Hi there,

                I have a QR VOLT SL which I have been told by QRman some time ago was  a "fine bike". I am certainly happy with it. I had a Illuminaero fork addd as well so it is kinda of  real QR. Having said that the guy who sold it to me, a very reputable dealer said the VOLT SL was better than the Kilo, whether that was a sales pitch or not I don’t know. A nice triathlon frame for $300 isn’t bad at all. I made my frame up into a bike that tips the scales a few grams over 9 kg!! Chris — Chris Carpenter at the Max-Planck-Insitut fuer Polymerforschung voice: +49 6131 379217           : Quintana Roo, Just Roo it!!! fax:   +49 6131 379100           : Saucony,  Loyal to the sport www:   http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/~carpent

Response:

                I have a QR VOLT SL which I have been told by QRman some time ago was  a "fine bike". I am certainly happy with it. I had a Illuminaero fork addd as well so it is kinda of  real QR. Having said that the guy who sold it to me, a very reputable dealer said the VOLT SL was better than the Kilo, whether that was a sales pitch or not I don’t know. A nice triathlon frame for $300 isn’t bad at all. I made my frame up into a bike that tips the scales a few grams over 9 kg!!

it was a fine bike.  here are the aggravating factors: 1.  it is not built of easton, but of taiwan, #7005 tubing, which is just not as stiff. 2.  it is built in taiwan, not a horrible thing, but not to the quality of our US made bikes. 3.  it comes with no warranty. 4.  it is a grey market bike, and it’s going to take us awhile to get this guy out of the market.  so every time i see a triathlete at a race who buys this grey  market bike i’m going to give them the stinkeye. here are the mitigating factors: 1.  it once was a legitimate qr bike, for the entry level german and japanese tri markets. 2.  it is built to our exact geometry. 3.  if you didn’t know you were buying a grey market bike when you bought it, i’ll take back my stinkeye. qrman

Response:

What is a "grey market" bike.  Something that is not quite black market.  How can it be called a QR if it is not an licensed bike?  If it a true oriental knockoff (patent violation) then I would assume it to be a black market product. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                 I have a QR VOLT SL which I have been told by QRman some time ago was  a "fine bike". I am certainly happy with it. I had a Illuminaero fork addd as well so it is kinda of  real QR. Having said that the guy who sold it to me, a very reputable dealer said the VOLT SL was better than the Kilo, whether that was a sales pitch or not I don’t know. A nice triathlon frame for $300 isn’t bad at all. I made my frame up into a bike that tips the scales a few grams over 9 kg!! it was a fine bike.  here are the aggravating factors: 1.  it is not built of easton, but of taiwan, #7005 tubing, which is just not as stiff. 2.  it is built in taiwan, not a horrible thing, but not to the quality of our US made bikes. 3.  it comes with no warranty. 4.  it is a grey market bike, and it’s going to take us awhile to get this guy out of the market.  so every time i see a triathlete at a race who buys this grey  market bike i’m going to give them the stinkeye. here are the mitigating factors: 1.  it once was a legitimate qr bike, for the entry level german and japanese tri markets. 2.  it is built to our exact geometry. 3.  if you didn’t know you were buying a grey market bike when you bought it, i’ll take back my stinkeye. qrman

Response:

What is a "grey market" bike.  Something that is not quite black market.  How can it be called a QR if it is not an licensed bike?  If it a true oriental knockoff (patent violation) then I would assume it to be a black market product.

Not a patent violation, unless Dan owns a patent on some key design feature. A trademark violation, yes. Generally, the term "gray market" applies to products made for foreign sales that are imported to the U.S. to compete with the same manufacturer’s product intended for the U.S. market. Usually, the U.S. product is pricier because of something or another (equal parts regulation, market demands for features, and product liability concerns). The gray market product is still made by the manufacturer in question. I had a neighbor once who sold gray market Mercedes cars. He’d park half a dozen of the damn things in his backyard, and move them in and out in dead of night, right by my bedroom window. I learned a lot about gray market enforcement. Finally got him on a zoning violation. They were real Mercedes cars, but they were intended for the Mexican market and did not have the proper safety equipment as required in the U.S. Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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this japaneses distributor went out of business, and there were bikes left in inventory in taiwan.  we gave the taiwanese factory the ok to sell their remaining inventory in certain places, not in america.  oh well.

Current owner bought at the going out of business sale in Germany so the bikes are okay, not bad quality

Not built to the same standards as the U.S. built bikes? Or just not built under your own watchful eye? Thanks for the input Dan. I think I’m gonna bite the proverbial bullet and buy the dang thing. Now I just gotta round up the rest of the parts. Anybody got some components sittin’ around gatherin’ dust? The triathlete formerly known as GARLICDUDE

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Not built to the same standards as the U.S. built bikes? Or just not built under your own watchful eye?

same thing. qrman

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I have the chance to buy a "new" as in never built up QR Volt frame. This is built in Taiwan for sale in Europe. I contacted QR and Rich Bolton in tech mentioned that there is no warranty on these in the states. He did state that it is similar in construction (7000 series aluminum) and geometry to the Kilo. I can get this for $300.00.

this bike is a sort of quasi legitimate qr, in a way.  this is roughly equivalent to our kilo, the tubes are taiwanese-made #7005 instead of easton, and the bike was built in taiwan, two years ago.  it was built for the japanese market, to our geometry, and we allowed our japanese distributor to build it under license.  it was also sold to our german distributor, and you could find the bike in germany as well. this japaneses distributor went out of business, and there were bikes left in inventory in taiwan.  we gave the taiwanese factory the ok to sell their remaining inventory in certain places, not in america.  oh well. so the bikes are okay, not bad quality, but they don’t come with any warranty from us.  not a bad buy if you want to take a certain risk. qrman

Response:

I have the chance to buy a "new" as in never built up QR Volt frame. This is built in Taiwan for sale in Europe. I contacted QR and Rich Bolton in tech mentioned that there is no warranty on these in the states. He did state that it is similar in construction (7000 series aluminum) and geometry to the Kilo. I can get this for $300.00. I value the opinions I find here. Should I buy? The triathlete formerly known as GARLICDUDE

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Question:

My husband did the GF this year, and while I was walking around lake Minneola cheering people on, I did notice a lot of burping and (heh heh) farting – more so than at other long distance races I’ve been to.  I talked to my husband and a few others after the race who all felt strongly (this isn’t an anti-product slam or anything) that it was the race day drink that everyone had.  Doug felt a lot better once he passed it up for plain water and the chicken broth at the aid stations.  Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before?  Maybe there is some sort of Great Floridian Duck that I don’t know about that was in its mating season – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

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Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

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I did the Great Floridian this year.  My swim time is listed as 1:07:26.  I had no stomach problem after I came out of the water.  I had some dehydration and lack of calories problem during the early part of the run, which I attribute to not eating and drinking enough during the bike. Eric Weiss – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

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My husband did the GF this year, and while I was walking around lake Minneola cheering people on, I did notice a lot of burping and (heh heh) farting – more so than at other long distance races I’ve been to.  I talked to my husband and a few others after the race who all felt strongly (this isn’t an anti-product slam or anything) that it was the race day drink that everyone had.  Doug felt a lot better once he passed it up for plain water and the chicken broth at the aid stations.  Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before?  Maybe there is some sort of Great Floridian Duck that I don’t know about that was in its mating season – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

Response:

Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

O good friend of mine did very poorly this year and attributes it to the swim. He normally can do the distance in under an hour and it took him two, vomiting several times during the swim. Needless to say the rest of the day was shot.. He attributes it to some sort of fuel in the water, says he could taste it in his mouth several times. Definitely a possibility considering the number of boats around during the race.

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I don’t remember anything about GFT except an unbelievable sense of pride, exhilaration, and joy at having finished.  If I was sick, I either didn’t notice, or wrote it off to extreme exertion at the time. John (Faith) Ft. Washington, MD

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Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before?  

‘Tis "the order of things" for an IM. The stress of the race wreaks havoc on the digestive system. -Rolf — I am Iron Mac.            The Ironman is over in the blink of an eye.                                                    Enjoy it! IMC’94/14:07    IMC’95/11:59    IMC’97/12:12    IMC’98/Confirmed

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I seriously doubt it was the Race Drink.  We served Race Day at 60 Triathlons and about ten Road Races last summer.   Every member of the USAT World Duathlon an World Triathlon teams received free product from us.  In fact we gave out over 100,000 samples last year and received no comments about stomach distress.  One gentleman from Mobile who did have an up set stomach thought it might have been due to a questionable chinese meal he had the night before.  Not everyone can tolerate all products so you usually expect some individual sensativities to spring up, but when a large group a people seem to be burping…maybe the volunteers mixed the drink with chili sauce instead of water.  I have heard of a few cases where bacteria in the swim water caused large groups of people to have the typical gastric symptoms.  If anyone has a concern about the product they Tom Cox – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband did the GF this year, and while I was walking around lake Minneola cheering people on, I did notice a lot of burping and (heh heh) farting – more so than at other long distance races I’ve been to.  I talked to my husband and a few others after the race who all felt strongly (this isn’t an anti-product slam or anything) that it was the race day drink that everyone had.  Doug felt a lot better once he passed it up for plain water and the chicken broth at the aid stations.  Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before?  Maybe there is some sort of Great Floridian Duck that I don’t know about that was in its mating season Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

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Mike;  I didn’t suffer from stomach upset but could smell deisel fuel periodically throughout the swim.

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i had definate stomache problems starting early on during the bike, i have no idea why, but i stayed queesy throughout the race tim hignett buaidh no bas

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the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem?

I found the exhaust from the support motor boats (which managed to place themselves upwind) to be quite annoying but other than that I felt alright. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I learned the meaning of life, but I forgot to write it down.

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One of my mates tossed his cookies (what was left !) three times on the run, but he doesn’t attribute it to anything in particular. I felt fine (stomach-wise) all day, but I did hear a lot of people saying the drink was pretty odd-tasting. I’ve never had a problem in any race with whatever the drink, except maybe that fizzy one (AllSport?). I thought the fuel fumes in the water was normal ! I know I’ve done a few lake swims where there have been powerboats around, and smelled the fumes,  but that was a tadeoff for the possible help they could have provided ! I guess I’m just lucky. Cheers Barry

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I did notice that I passed a lot of gas during the run.  Two of my friends also mentioned the same thing happened to them.  Could this be due to the choline in the sport drink?   Cheers, Som – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

I suppose that it’s technically not a tri-specific workout, but it *is* my favorite workout: A 4-mile bike climb up King’s Mountain Road, at an average grade of 7-8%. When I’m in reasonably good shape the climb takes me about 35 minutes to complete, and it’s probably the most productive 35 minutes I ever spend on my bike.  I got away with really minimal bike mileage last season ’cause I simply climbed this monster so much.  Round trip from my house, I can get in this climb in an hour and a half.  It totals out to just over 18 miles, but it’s an efficient use of the time, that’s for sure. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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Favorite cycling workout-  Chasing down cars and trying to draft as long as possible.

I nearly dented my head on the back of a Caravan last summer doing this – their brakes are much sharper than mine! Apart from that incident, it’s a great game to see how long you can hold on for. … The drivers usually don’t like it though.

I find that if there are any kids in the back seat, they love it! I’ve had lots of smiles and waves, but mostly it’s disbelief. Anybody else have any interesting games to keep themselves amused during training? regards adrian

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I didn’t catch the initial posting on this topic. Attached below is a copy of an article I wrote about 9 months ago; I never actually go around to submitting it to one of the magazines, partially because I didn’t have time, and partially due to a conviction that it would probably be rejected. It certainly represents my most important workout, although calling it my favorite is stretching the meaning of "favorite".  For those of you in the San Francisco Bay Area, I do the workout at Rancho San Antonio Park.  If anyone wants to know the route (with its two climbs of High Meadow Trail), I’d be glad to provide it; fortunately, this workout does not depend upon a particular route so much as having a course with substantial hills. Any park on the peninsula will certainly do. Joe Sventek                 My Keystone Workout for Multisport Success                                 Joe Sventek Have you ever noticed that one particular workout, done regularly as part of your training regimen, seems to be essential to your success?  I recall that the short speed intervals on the track every Thursday during my university career seemed to play this role in my 5k/10k racing days. I’ve been doing the duathlon/triathlon thing for 5 years now, and have detected an equivalent keystone workout for my multisport success. How would one determine if a particular workout was the "keystone"?  It seems that the needs of my job and different competitive foci have caused me to eliminate different workouts from my training for 3-4 months at a time. Continued racing in multisport events during such periods, even though the principal competitive focus might be a marathon (for instance), gives me the opportunity to subjectively compare performance with/without the particular workout.  As such, the following is anecdotal.  No pretense to the use of the scientific method should be inferred. I have long been a proponent of including regular hill training, both on the bike and the run, in a multisport training regimen.  Ascents on the run give you the opportunity to train at elevated heart rates without requiring the speed and pounding of track intervals;  descents, on the other hand, let you experience higher speeds, aiding turnover rate.  Ascents on the bike let you find (and fix) deficiencies in your pedalling mechanics (pedal in circles); descents help you develop bike handling skills at high speed. Rob Sleamaker proposes Vertical intervals as a component of his SERIOUS training plan; Owen Anderson, among others, recommends downhill intervals to improve turnover rate and running economy.  My keystone workout combines these two aspects. This workout depends heavily upon the use of a heart rate monitor and knowledge of your maximum HR, AT HR, and resting HR.  Although there are a variety of methods for estimating these, I strongly recommend having a maximal stress test performed to obtain accurate values to these parameters. The purpose of the workout is to keep the uphill portions of the run right at your anaerobic threshold, while keeping the downhill and flat portions at an aggressive pace (don’t dog the downhills because the uphills are so strenuous).  Use the HR monitor to achieve this purpose by setting the upper limit right at your AT (usually 80-85% of max) and the lower limit at 65% of max.  By forcing yourself to keep within these limits, you will work the uphills at AT and force yourself to work the downhills. My workout consists of a 8.5-mile run on trails with 3 hills mixed in, totalling ~1500 feet of ascent.  My HR values are:      Maximum 195      AT      175      Resting  55 I, therefore, set my limits at (145, 175).  Using my stopwatch, I note the splits at convenient landmarks at the foot and summit of each ascent, as well as the start and finish.  I do this workout weekly on Thursday afternoons, being reasonably well-recovered from track intervals on Tuesday at noon and stationary bike intervals on Wednesday morning. You should definitely see the overall time and individual splits improve as you do this from week to week.  You will also notice substantially improved leg turnover in your track workouts and races.  You should also notice improved strength in your multisport races; forcing yourself to go fast to keep above the lower limit, even when you are tired from the ascent, gets your body ready to handle the bike to run transition, both from a physical as well as a mental standpoint. Several variations on this theme are possible:  1. If you are feeling tired on the day, you could scale the HR window down     by 5-10 beats.  Doing the hills is still good for you, even if you don’t     do them as aggressively.  2. As your conditioning improves (both endurance and strength of connective     tissues in the legs) you can move the lower limit up.  This will force     you to work even harder on the downhill portions.  3. This workout, together with the rest of your training, may actually cause     your AT to climb (after all, that is one of the purposes of quality     training).  If so, you should raise both the upper and lower limits.  How     will you know that your AT has climbed?  Absent another maximal stress     test, if you find the ascents beginning to approximate a piece of cake,     you might try moving things up by 5 bpm. Copyright (c) 1996 Joseph S. Sventek

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Favorite cycling workout-  Chasing down cars and trying to draft as long as possible. I nearly dented my head on the back of a Caravan last summer doing this – their brakes are much sharper than mine! Apart from that incident, it’s a great game to see how long you can hold on for. … The drivers usually don’t like it though. I find that if there are any kids in the back seat, they love it! I’ve had lots of smiles and waves, but mostly it’s disbelief. Anybody else have any interesting games to keep themselves amused during training? regards adrian

I don’t know about the rest of you but this sounds nuts to me.  I value my life enough not to do that.  One mistake and it would be over.   gil gilliland

Response:

: : Favorite cycling workout-  Chasing down cars and trying to draft as long as : possible. : I nearly dented my head on the back of a Caravan last summer doing this : – their brakes are much sharper than mine! : Apart from that incident, it’s a great game to see how long you can hold : on for. : … The drivers usually don’t like it though. : I find that if there are any kids in the back seat, they love it! I’ve : had lots of smiles and waves, but mostly it’s disbelief. : Anybody else have any interesting games to keep themselves amused during : training? : regards : adrian Don’t drivers hate us enough as it is?  I don’t want to contribute to the problem.  Please don’t screw around with cars and create another cyclist-hating driver.  I’ve been run over, too, and the risk from these games is not worth it.  –                     *      Kenneth  David  Ervin      *                     *  "The best looking guy in G-L"  *                     *      No, sicko, Graham-Lees     *                     *        Phone # – 462-4999       *                     *         Graham-Lees #101        *

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I have recently been approached by a fellow triathlete friend of mine who writes the Triathlon column in our runners club newsletter to give him my favorite tri specific workout.  The problem lyes in that even though I have been very sucessfull at races and am the best female triathlete in our area I am also very new to the sport and still figuring things out especially when it comes to training.  Mostly I train with sport specific athletes (run with runners, ride with cyclests, swim with 12 year old wonders) and last year I thought I was really getting "with it" when I did a few short brick workouts.  Im sure all RST’ers would enjoy knowing what other triathletes are doing and what their favorite workouts are.  So,  please post yours or e-mail me and I will compile them if I get enough responses and post them myself. Keep training and tri-ing! —Lisa

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says… Im sure all RST’ers would enjoy knowing what other triathletes are doing and what their favorite workouts are.  

Well, I don’t know what everyone else is doing, but late at night, when my roomates are asleep, I sneak into the basement for 6 hr roller rides.      -==301 Giles Rd.==  –==Blacksburg, VA 24060==– —====(540)-951-3872====— "The will to win means nothing if you do not have the will to prepare."

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Well, I don’t know what everyone else is doing, but late at night, when my roomates are asleep, I sneak into the basement for 6 hr roller rides.

That doesn’t belong in a thread called Re: Favorite tri workouts. It should be posted to alt.support.nightmares. Ruth Kazez

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Favorite cycling workout-  Chasing down cars and trying to draft as long as possible.  For example, when a vehicle, preferably a van or a truck, is accelerating from a red light, I jump in behind them and hold on as they speed up.  In the city they usually cruise at 50 or 60 km/hr and it’s quite a lung burner staying on.  Kind of like motorpacing.  Also lots of sprinting.  The drivers usually don’t like it though.  Should be done on wide, reasonably low traffic roads so you can see up ahead.  I know most will say it’s dangerous and reckless, but I come from a cycling background with lots of criterium riding and training in heavy traffic and I’m pretty comfortable with it.

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Question:

Hard, easy who’s to know? The best quote I have heard on this topic was at a cross-country ski  training seminar back in the early 80’s. The Russian’s were dominating the World Cup at the time. An American Coach was lamenting the lack of results of both Canadian and American skiers on the World Cup circut. After seeing what the North American’s were doing in training the Russian coach summed things up nicely by saying that, "the hard days were not hard enough and the easy days were not easy enough". Enough said!! – Steve

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Hard, easy who’s to know? The best quote I have heard on this topic was at a cross-country ski  training seminar back in the early 80’s. The Russian’s were dominating the World Cup at the time. An American Coach was lamenting the lack of results of both Canadian and American skiers on the World Cup circut. After seeing what the North American’s were doing in training the Russian coach summed things up nicely by saying that, "the hard days were not hard enough and the easy days were not easy enough". Enough said!! – Steve

I have to agree with the Russian coach, and against what Dan said. The problem with most people is that they work too much time around 90-95% of AT heart rate. The problem with that is that this intensity is too high to build your aerobic system, and too low to stimulate AT. What you should try to do is to have easy days at 80-85% of AT, and hard days at 95-100% AT. To stress the specific systems, you have to work at the dedicated HR’s. Paulo Tri-something

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<<The QR/HED/Mission Bay area was the friendliest and most helpful at the show, undoubtedly the most knowledgeable, and the plethora of toys on display made it one of the flashiest. What I liked was the accessibility of the bikes and other stuff–the booth was not a booth, but an open area with many bikes, etc.  One could spend as much time as one liked checking out the bikes, unhassled. <<What really impressed me was the attention Dan Empfield, Bill Linneman and their staffs were willing to give me in spite of my telling them the limitations on my grad student budget.  One of Dan’s staff (forgive me, I spaced your name) not only fit me on a new QR, but also told me how I could achieve similar positioning on my ancient road bike with my forward seatpost.  I’d never felt so comfortable on a bike.  And when I asked Dan if I could get by with this setup, he said yes, I’d only give up handling.  Which is fine especially on the oh-so-exciting central Michigan terrain. I knew I had to look up Dan, given the "relationship" we r.s.t.’ers feel that we have with him.  After my buddy and I checked out the Te Quilo I intend to buy when the snow melts (great bike!!), we wandered a bit and…there was Dan.  After a brief intro, we had a wonderful 20 minute one-on-one talk about 1) why San Diego is QR Man’s home, 2) how the Illuminaero fork works, 3) the special HED tire to buy to go with it (if only one could afford it!), 4) what’s up corporately and in terms of new product development for QR, 5) Dan’s philosophy on sponsoring triathletes and the up-and-comers he is now sponsoring.  Dan is as good a guy in person as he is on the ‘net! A little later I returned and met Bill Linneman of Mission Bay.  Again, the one-on-one attention was intense and appropriate.  Sure can understand why this guy is the top QR shop in the country. Unfortunately, I did not have a chance to take in the seminars.  The one I saw underway (on bike maintenance) looked not heavily attended. –Tri Hard

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -No more than 5 quality workouts per week, no more than 2 per discipline, EVER. Uh-oh.  Could you elaborate on this.  How is quality defined? quality (as opposed to quantity) is defined (by me) as at or more than 75-80% of max heart rate. My thesis is that triathletes do more workouts than others.  A serious pro or age-grouper might swim 5 times/wk, run 6/wk, and ride 5/wk, and 16 workouts is more than any but the most ardent runner will do (there are very few 3 X day runners, although the Kenyans fit into that category). The problem that arises is too many opportunities for quality.  If you swim with a masters team (which I recommend) there is tremendous peer pressure to stay in the lane in which you normally swim, and to stay in the lane position you normally are in, and to stay for the whole workout. That’s the problem with masters, and most masters coaches don’t understand that triathletes can’t bash heads in every workout.  But in the "main set" you are pretty much guaranteed to be 80% of your max heartrate. So there’s 4 or 5 high heartrate workouts right there, and you haven’t even gotten to the bike or run workouts yet. I feel the biggest problem triathletes get into in their training is too much quality.  The most misinterpreted and misunderstood (and maybe harful) phrase out there is "junk miles".  There’s nothing junky about low heartrate and recovery miles. QRman

My understanding is that quality is not at that 80% level but just the opposite.   Training at that 80% level DAY AFTER DAY is junk.  You teach your body neither to go fast nor do you allow it to recover properly.  Quality miles are those miles that train your body to go fast, build endurance or let you recover.  Junk miles aren’t so much just miles but combinations of workouts. As for swimming, I have found that any reputable masters swim program will have enough variety between days that you can not suffer the junk miles syndrome in the pool.  Generally, you will find in a masters program, IM days where the emphasis is working on strokes other than freestyle, sprint days where the emphasis is pure speed, long intervals and short intense distances.  There will be days which are dedicated to distance workouts that emphasize endurance.  Then there is that dreaded AT day, where the swimming is right at your limit and the rest is short,         for me, 10×100 on the 1:20.  If you are not getting this variety, you are not going on a regular basis or your coach is not experienced.  Go more or get out of that program! Let’s also consider that swim training and running/cycling training have VERY different recovery times as the muscle groups used in swimming are much smaller. For example, try pulling a 1:20 pace and try kicking a 1:20 pace for a hundred yards and then compare heartrates.  The larger muscle groups tax the cardiovascular system much more and effect recovery differently. Dan is absolutely correct that triathletes DO workout more than others.  Being able to swallow your ego and go slow when your buddies want to hammer or when the workout is to much is a barrier to overcome within one’s self. What you really need to do is develop a plan and stick to it.  Make sure your hard days are hard and your easy days are easy.  Stress this to your swim coach and friends.  I would guess that your coach will be willing to accomadate you.  You will have to deal with the pressure of your swimming buddies though.  What I like to think/say is "Hey, any time you train with me for a couple weeks, your welcome to come along."  This usually shuts the uni-athletes up. Good luck.

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This is all pretty interesting.  I’m about ready to move up from my 3-year old road bike.  When will Brother Love’s Travelling QR Salvation Show be in the LA area?

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-No more than 5 quality workouts per week, no more than 2 per discipline, EVER. Uh-oh.  Could you elaborate on this.  How is quality defined?

quality (as opposed to quantity) is defined (by me) as at or more than 75-80% of max heart rate. My thesis is that triathletes do more workouts than others.  A serious pro or age-grouper might swim 5 times/wk, run 6/wk, and ride 5/wk, and 16 workouts is more than any but the most ardent runner will do (there are very few 3 X day runners, although the Kenyans fit into that category). The problem that arises is too many opportunities for quality.  If you swim with a masters team (which I recommend) there is tremendous peer pressure to stay in the lane in which you normally swim, and to stay in the lane position you normally are in, and to stay for the whole workout. That’s the problem with masters, and most masters coaches don’t understand that triathletes can’t bash heads in every workout.  But in the "main set" you are pretty much guaranteed to be 80% of your max heartrate. So there’s 4 or 5 high heartrate workouts right there, and you haven’t even gotten to the bike or run workouts yet. I feel the biggest problem triathletes get into in their training is too much quality.  The most misinterpreted and misunderstood (and maybe harful) phrase out there is "junk miles".  There’s nothing junky about low heartrate and recovery miles. QRman

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The 18 Month Schedule, Dan Empfield. I’m glad I stuck around this long.  This helped me plan my season towards two peaks. Key points: -No more than 5 quality workouts per week, no more than 2 per discipline, EVER.

Uh-oh.  Could you elaborate on this.  How is quality defined? Are we talking just good hard training, so that it wouldn’t count LSD workouts?  If we’re counting every time I lace up (or velcro) the shoes to go exercise, I am seriously overtraining.

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I know this has been mentioned before but will you be putting a summary of this clinic in some kind of format where all the unlucky RSTrs who were not able to attend can have access to it?  PLEASE.

I think a lot of the clinic stuff will be up on our website.  We have this part of our website where we have a lot of technical stuff posted, and we are going to greatly enlarge that.  It may be several weeks before we get it all up. QRman

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Ditto. The show and clinics were an outstanding example of a a travelling tradeshow done "right".  I was soaking in information like a bone dry sponge. Don’t miss it if it’s anywhere near you…there’s something about the energy that seems to come off of meeting really good triathletes…. Chaz

Dan, I know this has been mentioned before but will you be putting a summary of this clinic in some kind of format where all the unlucky RSTrs who were not able to attend can have access to it?  PLEASE. THANKS! Regards, Carlos Torres de Navarra Cora Gables, Florida

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Hi Folks, For those of you who won’t be able to get to Dan Empfield’s show (or for those of you who will be going and want a preview), I thought I’d pass along a little of what was happening during his appearance at the Chicago CABDA show. QR and HED along with Mission Bay had a good chunk of floor space devoted to the new bikes and if you have not yet seen the TeQuilo or the new fork, you would have gotten an eyeful.  QR also had their Mountain and Road bikes displayed, but it was those Kilo’s that got the most attention.   First let me say it was great to meet Dan after all the cyberspace conversation and I had a chance to have an uninterrupted 25 minute chat with him about everything from fork graphics to the ITU to Spencer Smith. I found him just as we have thought here on the net, personable, straightforward and really willing to talk his business with anyone. One of the things that can be off-putting about these trade shows is that the reps can be a little holier-than-thou and put forth an attitude of not really wanting to put up with the "uninformed masses",  but I found absolutely none of that with Dan or Steve Hed.  I think they realize that their business depends on a relatively small customer base and are really willing to take the time to answer questions and talk straight. I guess everybody was on their best behavior, but it was sure nice to see. During the workshops I learned: 1. You’ll need to keep your cadence high on a tri-specific bike. Mashing the big gears doesn’t necessarily mean big success. 2. Right angles are "in". Dan put forth a formula from his research with pro triathletes and you’ll want right angles for efficiency.  He said you should have between 13-16 centimeters difference between your saddle and stem height. If you do see his presentation, he will TOTALLY sell you on the need for a steep seat angle for racing aerodynamically comfortably and efficiently. I am not going to spill the beans, but he, without bad-mouthing anybody, will tell you what Karen Smyers and Mike Pigg tell him about their TREK’s. 3. The bloom seems to be coming off beam bikes. Obviously it is in his interest to say that, but look at the pros.  Only Zack among the most elite is still riding one. Comfort and adjustability to be sure, but….   4. In a burst of refreshing candor he said that a tri-specific bike should be your SECOND bike.  That for prolonged base training you need a more slack geometry to do the slower, easier miles to build base.  To go fast off that base, the tri-bike then becomes the tool of choice. It will be a rocket. 5. From Steve Hed’s presentation the most important thing to pass along is that there is no absolute best wheelset for EVERYbody. Since the individual differences in riders can be so profound, what might be the perfect wheel set-up for a long-femured 190-pounder is not the same for a long-torsoed 150-pounder, even on the same course under the same conditions. 6. There is no doubt that deep dish wheels are more aerodynamic for almost any triathlon, but whether or not you use a Disc, a CX or a J2 really depends on your personal characteristics.  I can also tell you this…while alot of the deep dish wheels LOOK the same, there is a difference in the HED’s.  It has to do with Steve’s patent and that difference is important enough so that QR recommends only HED’s as racing wheels.  They spec the Velocity’s as a terrific pricepoint compromise for training/racing, but Dan and HED can make you believe that HED wheels are the way to go for hard racing, again without bad-mouthing the competition.(BTW, I have found their service to be great as well.) I later moseyed over to the (pretty quiet) Spinergy booth. Decent enough guys, but didn’t really have the same command of the aerodynamic facts as did Steve and Dan.   7. I guess this is sounding like a commercial for these guys, but you can’t help but be impressed with the work and research they have put into all of this and with their willingness to come out and promote it.  It seems that QR has a pretty good head start on the tri-market at the moment and this kind of work is one of the reasons why. If there are any mistakes in what I am remembering and putting down here, they are mine, not theirs. There is more that I could probably ramble on about, but let me just finish by saying that this was a fun few hours for a cold weather-bound Midwest triathlete and it certainly gets you fired up to go out and ride. I met a fellow RST-er, Vaughn Cooper from Michigan and spoke to Linda Buchanan and Darren Wood, both of whom were gracious with their time. Bill Linneman of Mission Bay was his usual enthusiastic self and I think between his zest for the sport and his product line, he is going to have a very successful year. If you get the chance to see the show, check it out! Great fun! Best, Mark Mannebach

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<snip Mark’s stufff about Dan’s tradeshow Ditto. The show and clinics were an outstanding example of a a travelling tradeshow done "right".  I was soaking in information like a bone dry sponge. Don’t miss it if it’s anywhere near you…there’s something about the energy that seems to come off of meeting really good triathletes…. Chaz

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Dan put forth a formula from his research with pro triathletes and you’ll want right angles for efficiency.  He said you should have between 13-16 centimeters difference between your saddle and stem height.

thanks for the kind words, i just returned, and we had a really good time in chicago.  so that there is no confusion, the above amount of armrest drop is what you would need if you were my height (i am 6′2", and used myself as an example).  if you were shorter, you’d need less armrest drop, my wife is 5′5" and i think she has about 8cm of drop. QRman

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Greetings RST, First, I’ll second everything that Mark said. The QR/HED/Mission Bay area was the friendliest and most helpful at the show, undoubtedly the most knowledgeable, and the plethora of toys on display made it one of the flashiest. What really impressed me was the attention Dan Empfield, Bill Linneman and their staffs were willing to give me in spite of my telling them the limitations on my grad student budget.  One of Dan’s staff (forgive me, I spaced your name) not only fit me on a new QR, but also told me how I could achieve similar positioning on my ancient road bike with my forward seatpost.  I’d never felt so comfortable on a bike.  And when I asked Dan if I could get by with this setup, he said yes, I’d only give up handling.  Which is fine especially on the oh-so-exciting central Michigan terrain. On to the talks: Biomechanics & Bike Fit, Dan Empfield. See Mark’s report.  Dan detailed how he made stick-figure outlines of many of the top pros and compared their positions in the aero position.  It seems that the right angle between hip to leg and the difference between seat height and bar height are two constants in cycling.  He also told a few good anecdotes about Spencer Smith, JulieAnne White, Mike Pigg, Karen Smyers et al.   Relative Aerodynamics, Steve Hed Again, see Mark’s report. Imagine a cross between a nutty professor and a tri-geek, and this is what Steve Hed looks like.  Dan doesn’t sell Steve short:  he obviously knows of what he speaks, even if he doesn’t sell it.  Steve and his wife Annie were always welcome to questions about their products and otherwise.  A few surprises to me:  1) Steve said that a disc is always fastest, even in Hawaii’s crosswinds; 2) when asked "why buy a Hed over a Zipp?", Steve replied, "Do you want to go faster?"  Laughter followed. Fueling the Endurance Effort, Linda Buchanan Didn’t see much, but it was a lot of the basics.  Fuel early and often, don’t let yourself get too hungry or it’s too late, and use Gu (she was one of their reps). Be the Hunter (not the hunted), Ryan Bolton The talk itself was good, but I got more out of picking Ryan’s brain during questions and afterwards.  Ryan is a good guy and is unquestionably very talented. He sung the praises of miles, miles, miles during the early base period, and of turbo-trainer and track run bricks during the build or "interval" period. During this part of the season he recommends easy runs after long rides to build endurance.  Dan sung Ryan’s praises throughout the day, so keep your eyes peeled. Your Most Important Partner, Darren Wood I bailed out early from this one since Darren was emphasizing basics that I learned early on from being my own mechanic. Clean your chain.  Tighten everything often.  Clean your freewheel/cassette.  Lube everything.  Pay attention to brakes.  Clean your chain.  I say it again because it is that important.  By the way, Darren is another articulate pro in Dan’s stable. The 18 Month Schedule, Dan Empfield. I’m glad I stuck around this long.  This helped me plan my season towards two peaks.   Key points: -No more than 5 quality workouts per week, no more than 2 per discipline, EVER. -You gotta rest.  Dan believes you can’t train for more than 4 months straight without burning out, when your body enforces the rest. -Monthly cycle:  heavy bike, heavy run, balanced bike/run, rest. -3 magic bullets of getting stronger on the bike:         -Strength training for those legs         -The long bike week (mucho miles)         -Computrainer-type threshold workouts. Dan said that          Cyclerobx sounded like the same idea. Aside from all this, it was more fun than I expected.  I compensated QR by buying myself some Twinkletoes on sale, and enjoyed a day of being immersed in triathlon instead of snow.  Oh yeah, I checked out Profile’s new forks.  Pretty sweet carbon, if you ask me. 700c or 650c, threaded or unthreaded.  Uh oh, better stop thinking or I might buy.  Cheers,  Vaughn — Vaughn Cooper Center for Microbial Ecology, Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824 (517) 353-3953/3955 voice/fax

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Question:

As previously discussed, nausea is a major rate limiting factor in triathlon. Another component to this nausea may be the systemic acidosis resulting from lactate buildup. Acidosis is well known to cause nausea and vomiting. Could raising the pH of the body using alkali(eg TUMS or Alka Selzer) help maintain a normal pH during intense exercise? This could allow a higher tolerance of lactate buildup and a higher threshold for discomfort. There may have been studies done on this but I couldn’t find any. Tums would be cheap, safe, and undetectable performance enhancing drug. They could be carried inconspicuously in a jersey. Perhaps a special holder could be marketed for aero bars.  I have already bought shares in the company. PS why is everyone so vicious and intolerant of my postings on this newsgroup? I have already recieved one death threat. Captain Lactate

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Could raising the pH of the body using alkali(eg TUMS or Alka Selzer) help maintain a normal pH during intense exercise? This could allow a higher tolerance of lactate buildup and a higher threshold for discomfort. There may have been studies done on this but I couldn’t find any. Tums would be cheap, safe, and undetectable performance enhancing drug. They could be carried inconspicuously in a jersey. Perhaps a special holder could be marketed for aero bars. I have already bought shares in the company.

Which brings up a question.  What are the tablets that Luc Van de Lierde (sp) had tucked into the waistband of his shorts in Hawaii? JT

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Studies have been done the introduce substances to neutralize the increased acidity.  One of my profs did one.  He found that to get an effect one had to ingest a lot (like a pound) of baking soda.  However, almost each subject had severe GI distress. Also, the person could not consume the soda fast enough so it was placed in the stomach using a tube down the throat. His name is Jeff Rupp and I think his Ph.D. dissertation was on this. Sam Callan Couldn’t think of anything this time…..

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Studies have been done the introduce substances to neutralize the increased acidity.  One of my profs did one.  He found that to get an effect one had to ingest a lot (like a pound) of baking soda.  However, almost each subject had severe GI distress. Also, the person could not consume the soda fast enough so it was placed in the stomach using a tube down the throat.

Well, a *pound* is a bit of a stretch, but your point is well made, i.e., it does take a fair amount – most studies have had people ingest 0.3 g of sodium bicarbonate per kg of body weight, or about 1 oz for the average Joe or Joesephine. And, GI distress is often an unpleasant side effect. I toss this out there just so somebody doesn’t take you too literally, and make themselves really sick…

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He found that to get an effect one had to ingest a lot (like a pound) of baking soda.  However, almost each subject had severe GI distress.

They tried doing this with race horses, I beleive, and now test them for soda after races. Thye also get GI "distress" … severly I understand How badly do you want to go faster ?? Richard

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Question:

JJ I guess if you add up the two columns you fit into i quess you would rank a 13. Bruce Platt

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(Stephen Forrest) writes:

   Does this relatively low result have anything to do with JJ’s career change?<<< No, but I did always wonder why I was such a loser with women. Now I know why and what the score is. Anybody want to trade an Armani suit for  the Rider jacket that Spencer Smith wore on the cover of Triathlete last year or a pair of Sampson pedals? jj

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The recent issue (Feb) of Esquire magazine (now available at newsstands everywhere, call 1-800- …. etc., etc.,) took a poll asking 1000 women ages 18-25:   *"Which male image is the most appealing to you?"* The top 7 results (in order of most appealing to least) 1. Investment banker in an Armani suit …25.6% 2. A rancher with a three-day growth of beard…16.8% 3. An architect in a sweater…14.1 4. A grunge rocker with no underwear…13.1% 5. A motorcycle mechanic in a torn T-shirt..9.7% 6. A triathlete in surf duds…9.0% 7. A magazine editor in a tweed jacket…8.1% No conclusions from my end. Just bringing you the latest news… talk among yourselves. JJ

If "A triathlete in surf duds" means a tri-guy in a tight wetsuit… They’ve got my vote! just one girl’s opinion jo redondo beach, CA p.s. Hey RN man….I was wondering how long it was going to take you to respond to my post bout your RNman signature.  We had SO much fun   and you missed it! (I’m thinking of changing my signature to "toots", as in "tootsie"!)

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The recent issue (Feb) of Esquire magazine (now available at newsstands everywhere, call 1-800- …. etc., etc.,) took a poll asking 1000 women ages 18-25: *"Which male image is the most appealing to you?"* The top 7 results (in order of most appealing to least) 1. Investment banker in an Armani suit …25.6% 2. A rancher with a three-day growth of beard…16.8% 3. An architect in a sweater…14.1 4. A grunge rocker with no underwear…13.1% 5. A motorcycle mechanic in a torn T-shirt..9.7% 6. A triathlete in surf duds…9.0% 7. A magazine editor in a tweed jacket…8.1% No conclusions from my end. Just bringing you the latest news… talk among yourselves. JJ

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The recent issue (Feb) of Esquire magazine (now available at newsstands everywhere, call 1-800- …. etc., etc.,) took a poll asking 1000 women ages 18-25: *"Which male image is the most appealing to you?"* The top 7 results (in order of most appealing to least) 1. Investment banker in an Armani suit …25.6% 2. A rancher with a three-day growth of beard…16.8% 3. An architect in a sweater…14.1 4. A grunge rocker with no underwear…13.1% 5. A motorcycle mechanic in a torn T-shirt..9.7% 6. A triathlete in surf duds…9.0% 7. A magazine editor in a tweed jacket…8.1%

Does this relatively low result have anything to do with JJ’s career change? BTW, could you tell me where "Grunge grad. student triathlete with torn T-shirt, sweater, no underwear, and three day growth of beard" finished?  This could be vitally important to my self-esteem. Thanks, Steve Forrest

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