Question:

one of your other personalities? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Over the past few weeks we have received more than the odd few emails from Date.com and finally got them to accept I did not sign myself up. Anyone the giveaway was the "I love RST" in one of the registered comments and the user password as Triathlon, sinced changed! Well done to whoever did it but, thanks and no thanks!!!!! Lloyd

Response:

Oh Lloyd, Giving someone the impression it’s a little lonely down there? Training a little long and neglecting your love life? That’s a good one (wish I thought of it, but I’m innocent, honest) Wayne

| Over the past few weeks we have received more than the odd few emails from | Date.com and finally got them to accept I did not sign myself up. | | Anyone the giveaway was the "I love RST" in one of the registered comments | and the user password as Triathlon, sinced changed! | | Well done to whoever did it but, thanks and no thanks!!!!! | | | | Lloyd | |

Response:

Over the past few weeks we have received more than the odd few emails from Date.com and finally got them to accept I did not sign myself up. Anyone the giveaway was the "I love RST" in one of the registered comments and the user password as Triathlon, sinced changed! Well done to whoever did it but, thanks and no thanks!!!!! Lloyd

Response:

Question:

Did anyone else watch Ironman Hawaii coverage? I thought it was one of the best pieces of sports coverage I have ever seen.

I taped it, watched it, watched again. Even my wife found it interesting enough to avoid saying "Oh no, you’re not going to watch that marathon again." I liked how they could make an otherwise longish and somewhat boring competition into the most interesting coverage of the year (even outdoing this year’s Boston, Chicago and NYCM coverages).

It seemed like they put a lot of creativity into the broadcast. Of course, Chicago and the others were aired as a live events (more or less), so they didn’t have a whole lot of time to get creative. Following all the stories associated with the various athletes was very interesting. When the Hoyts cross the finish line it puts a smile on my face and a tear in my eye every time I watch it. Spectacular!    -Phil

Response:

Did anyone else watch Ironman Hawaii coverage? I thought it was one of the best pieces of sports coverage I have ever seen.

Agree 100%. Damn Oleg, there goes that stereotype of the heartless Russian eating their children alive.  :) Not a big fan of triathlons (not yet), but I watched it with my brother who is a serious biker and triathlete, and he was just glued to the screen. Despite an obvious Boston bias of the coverage (Hoyts, Smyers

There is something about the Hoyts that is truly inspiring. and that mother of 5), I liked how they could make an otherwise longish and somewhat boring competition into the most interesting coverage of the year (even outdoing this year’s Boston, Chicago and NYCM coverages). Just my 2 roubles.

Add a few pennies… — Caveat Lector!

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Did anyone else watch Ironman Hawaii coverage?

I’ve taped it the last couple of years. Real motivator. How about knocking out a 2:41 marathon after swimming 2.4 miles and biking 112, unreal.

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I heard it was horrible coverage.  Just fluff stories and they didn’t show the marathon.

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Did anyone else watch Ironman Hawaii coverage? I’ve taped it the last couple of years. Real motivator. How about knocking out a 2:41 marathon after swimming 2.4 miles and biking 112, unreal.

Does anybody have any data about how a top level Ironman cat triathlete would fare in a marathon? I am thinking about some of the best runners like Van Lierde, Peter Reid … The guys that can do 2.35 to 2.45 after the swimming and cycling. Can these guys touch 2.15-2.25?

Response:

Did anyone else watch Ironman Hawaii coverage? I thought it was one of the best pieces of sports coverage I have ever seen.

It was one of the better coverages of IMH they’ve done. The consensus among net-triathletes is that they finally gave age groupers some decent coverage. They usually don’t. One personally interesting note – remember when they DQ’d the lead bike for following the camera truck? I was wondering if the ref was going to catch hell. Well the ref is a net acquaintance who I’ve met at a few races – Charlie Crawford.  Charlie is one of the most respected (and tough and fair) refs in the game. He’s one of very few who could have done that without any qualms. He was assigned the job of monitoring the lead pack for just that reason. Cool. As inspiring as the Hoyt’s are, I was not happy to see them bend the rules to let them continue on the run. They were a full 1 1/2 hours off the bike cut off.  Other non-celebrities who missed the cut-off by a few minutes were not allowed to continue. If I was one of them, I’d be pretty upset. I liked how they could make an otherwise longish and somewhat boring competition into the most interesting coverage of the year (even outdoing this year’s Boston, Chicago and NYCM coverages).

That’s one of the benefits of not covering it live (it was run in October). Lots of time to edit the tapes to fit the outcome. Triathlon is the ultimate non-spectator sport.  I have no idea why anyone would watch a live race – especially an IM. My wife refuses to go and I don’t blame her. You have the start, which is sort of cool, then you watch this mass of unidentifiable swim caps move slowly around a course for an hour or an hour and a half.  You catch a brief glimpse of the person you know as they come out of the water, then they disappear on the bike for 5-7 hours. If the run course isn’t looped, you see them again at the start of the run, then at the finish 4-5 hours later.  And then what you’re left with is a dehydrated, smelly, exhausted, incoherent zombie who is grinning from ear to ear and babbling like an idiot. Mike "Been there" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

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: One personally interesting note – remember when they DQ’d the lead : bike for following the camera truck? I was wondering if the ref was : going to catch hell. Well the ref is a net acquaintance who I’ve met : at a few races – Charlie Crawford.  Charlie is one of the most : respected (and tough and fair) refs in the game. He’s one of very few : who could have done that without any qualms. He was assigned the job : of monitoring the lead pack for just that reason. Cool. hehe, either Mike is alive or Jenn killed him and broke into his account. I was wondering about that DQ also – they didn’t say much, and it seemed he got punished for something he did quite a few miles ago. He also got DQ the moment he became the leader. In a way it was the most tragic moment of the whole Ironman. Could you imagine being that belgian guy? —  Oleg

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Maybe 2:20-2:25 for the best runner/triathletes.  2:15 is a whole ‘nother ballgame.

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Good to see you back, Mike!                                 Jean S.

Response:

Oleg: As Charlie has explained elsewhere, the TV coverage was discontinuous, so you don’t get a full sense of the infraction from watching. Lothar Leder was actually penalized (the second, disqualifying time) for riding to the left side of the lane for an extended period. (This may seem to be an odd rule to runners, but it has an important purpose.) Incidentally, Charlie did not issue the first penalty; happily, I didn’t either. For those of you who don’t know about the arcana of triathlon, there is a very particular set of rules for the bike leg that is designed to provide fair and safe competition (no drafting, blocking of passes, right-side passing, etc.). More than 20 certified USA Triathlon officials patrolled the bike portion of Ironman Hawaii, and we issued fewer penalties this year than any year since the present system was put in place. To see so many very capable competitors race so cleanly was a real pleasure. David (USAT Cat. 3 official) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : One personally interesting note – remember when they DQ’d the lead : bike for following the camera truck? I was wondering if the ref was : going to catch hell. Well the ref is a net acquaintance who I’ve met : at a few races – Charlie Crawford.  Charlie is one of the most : respected (and tough and fair) refs in the game. He’s one of very few : who could have done that without any qualms. He was assigned the job : of monitoring the lead pack for just that reason. Cool. hehe, either Mike is alive or Jenn killed him and broke into his account. I was wondering about that DQ also – they didn’t say much, and it seemed he got punished for something he did quite a few miles ago. He also got DQ the moment he became the leader. In a way it was the most tragic moment of the whole Ironman. Could you imagine being that belgian guy? —  Oleg

Response:

hehe, either Mike is alive or Jenn killed him and broke into his account.

She’s high maintenance not violent…..I think?…. I was wondering about that DQ also – they didn’t say much, and it seemed he got punished for something he did quite a few miles ago. He also got DQ the moment he became the leader. In a way it was the most tragic moment of the whole Ironman. Could you imagine being that belgian guy?

Mike, since you’re close to the sport and the course road guard, could you shed a little more light on the infraction? I’m trying to assume he was not so dense that he thought he could draft off the photographers vehicle… Welcome back. Brother Indy has been is state of depression.  :) — Caveat Lector!

Response:

Oleg: As Charlie has explained elsewhere, the TV coverage was discontinuous, so you don’t get a full sense of the infraction from watching. Lothar Leder was actually penalized (the second, disqualifying time) for riding to the left side of the lane for an extended period. (This may seem to be an odd rule to runners, but it has an important purpose.) Incidentally, Charlie did not issue the first penalty; happily, I didn’t either.

So what is the purpose of this rule? I thought it was just to avoid blocking the pasage of other ciclists. I cannot not see how riding on the left of the lane can create any danger specially when you are on the lead or far from anybody else. (that seem ed to be the case with Lothar).

Response:

In this specific case, Leder was moving to his left in order to draft off of race-vehicles.  He was warned (and I think flagged for it), and got DQed after already having been penalized.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oleg: As Charlie has explained elsewhere, the TV coverage was discontinuous, so you don’t get a full sense of the infraction from watching. Lothar Leder was actually penalized (the second, disqualifying time) for riding to the left side of the lane for an extended period. (This may seem to be an odd rule to runners, but it has an important purpose.) Incidentally, Charlie did not issue the first penalty; happily, I didn’t either. So what is the purpose of this rule? I thought it was just to avoid blocking the pasage of other ciclists. I cannot not see how riding on the left of the lane can create any danger specially when you are on the lead or far from anybody else. (that seem ed to be the case with Lothar).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oleg: As Charlie has explained elsewhere, the TV coverage was discontinuous, so you don’t get a full sense of the infraction from watching. Lothar Leder was actually penalized (the second, disqualifying time) for riding to the left side of the lane for an extended period. (This may seem to be an odd rule to runners, but it has an important purpose.) Incidentally, Charlie did not issue the first penalty; happily, I didn’t either. So what is the purpose of this rule? I thought it was just to avoid blocking the pasage of other ciclists. I cannot not see how riding on the left of the lane can create any danger specially when you are on the lead or far from anybody else. (that seem ed to be the case with Lothar).

I can’t comment on the intent of the rulemakers, as I have had no involvement in the development of triathlon rules. But from my perspective, and as you’ve noted, the primary purpose is to prevent blocking. Secondarily, it prevents an overtaking rider from having to choose between passing over the centerline or on the right, both of which are illegal (and dangerous). Other considerations: As is the case with most triathlons, the Hawaii bike course is not closed to vehicular traffic; the lane must be shared with everything from camera crews to tour buses. Also, riding to the right prevents cyclists from shortening large-radius lefthand corners by riding to the inside of the curve. I should have made it clear in my previous post that Leder must have ridden to the left for longer than 15 seconds ("an extended period") for this penalty to have been imposed. Brief excursions are permitted. David (USA Triathlon official)

Response:

Did anyone else watch Ironman Hawaii coverage? I thought it was one of the best pieces of sports coverage I have ever seen. Not a big fan of triathlons (not yet), but I watched it with my brother who is a serious biker and triathlete, and he was just glued to the screen. Despite an obvious Boston bias of the coverage (Hoyts, Smyers and that mother of 5), I liked how they could make an otherwise longish and somewhat boring competition into the most interesting coverage of the year (even outdoing this year’s Boston, Chicago and NYCM coverages). Just my 2 roubles. —  Oleg

Response:

Did anyone else watch Ironman Hawaii coverage?

Yes! I thought it was one of the best pieces of sports coverage I have ever seen.

I did too, although I have been hearing from triathlete friends that the coverage seemed a little too ‘human interest’ to them. I think this could be the equivelent of my wanting to see more ‘average’ marathoners and not the extreme ends of the spectrum. Not a big fan of triathlons (not yet), but I watched it with my brother who is a serious biker and triathlete, and he was just glued to the screen. Despite an obvious Boston bias of the coverage (Hoyts, Smyers and that mother of 5), I liked how they could make an otherwise longish and somewhat boring competition into the most interesting coverage of the year (even outdoing this year’s Boston, Chicago and NYCM coverages). Just my 2 roubles.

I don’t think I’ll ever get tired of seeing the Hoyts in these televised events. I have spoken to these guys a few times (earlier Bostons) and I am always inspired by the attitudes of both Dick and his son. Now, *that’s* hard work! (right Indy?) I have raced marathons, cycle-raced 100 miles (forget the 2.4 swim ) and I have a lot of respect for people who can put it all together like that! — … tramps like us, Before you buy.

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Question:

I participated in my first Alcatraz triathlon today. The swim was very enjoyable (water was calm), the bike was nice and hilly, and the run was tough (very technical with hills, sand, and many steps to negotiate ). Did anyone else compete in the race today? What did you think of the course? How does it compare to other triathlons in the SF Bay area (my next goal is to plan which 2-4 races to compete in next year). Also, I thought I heard standing would be posted to the Envirosports Web anyone know about this? New to this, Mark

Response:

Hey Mark, I competed in the Ultimate Escape as well. Your synopsis is pretty accurate- I thought the swim was great- some chop and waves but not too bad, the warmup run always gets me, the bike challenging, but nice and short, and the run—- always a bitch! This is definitely one of the hardest races in the bay area (although this year’s XTERRA in half moon bay was pretty brutal). The alcatraz race used to have a slightly longer run– another couple miles!! so, it’s a little shorter now. But, i.m.h.o, you just can’t beat the scenery and vibes, and sense of accomplishment from a race like the Alcatraz Triathlon!! btw, you can read some of my race reports and links to bay area triathlons at, http://www.golden-coast.com/active/ also, look for results at www.TheSchedule.com Cheers. Todd Walsh Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

btw, you can read some of my race reports and links to bay area triathlons at, http://www.golden-coast.com/active/ also, look for results at www.TheSchedule.com Cheers. Todd Walsh Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

By the way, congratulations on  finishing 9th.  Awesome!

Response:

Question:

This is an easy one … don’t wear shoes or socks!!! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Sorry, I should have told you that my name isn’t Abbebe Bikila…. Mike E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is an easy one … don’t wear shoes or socks!!! Mike I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I believe this problem was discussed before (a couple weeks ago) so you might want to use Deja.com to look at these old messages.  I’m not sure what people suggested (I do remember someone suggesting a funnel device which attach to your calves which redircts the flow of water around your shoes … not very practical, though!!). Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, I should have told you that my name isn’t Abbebe Bikila…. Mike E. This is an easy one … don’t wear shoes or socks!!! Mike I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E.

I also get Squishy shoes here in Chattanooga, when I run more than 5 miles or so. I wear cool-max socks, and on long runs I make sure they fit good and are realitivly new. My shoes get just as wet but the socks stay in place. Rick

Response:

Mike wrote in part ….My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions?

On a long run in hot weather, my shoes get so wet, people have actually asked me if it’s raining outside.  Once during Grandma’s marathon, I stopped and took my socks off and wrung them out!  For the last couple of years, I have been wearing Ultimax Ironman Triathlon socks and although my shoes still get soaking wet, no sock bunching or blisters. Jim

Response:

Thanks, I should have searched!!! It looks like I either wear funnels, go barefoot, or keep squishing! Thanks, Mike E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe this problem was discussed before (a couple weeks ago) so you might want to use Deja.com to look at these old messages.  I’m not sure what people suggested (I do remember someone suggesting a funnel device which attach to your calves which redircts the flow of water around your shoes … not very practical, though!!). Mike Sorry, I should have told you that my name isn’t Abbebe Bikila…. Mike E. This is an easy one … don’t wear shoes or socks!!! Mike I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree

Well, your socks  _are_ going to be soaking wet and your shoes wet and smelly if you run under those conditions! By running in bare feet, the sweat from your feet will naturally disperse, and the wetness and discomfort from sodden socks and smelly shoes will be a thing of the past.  It doesn’t take long to accustom yourself to running barefoot.  It’s more comfortable than running in shoes, you have more control, and it’s healthier for you. Try it.  You might like it. Andrew Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

Oct. 03, 1998 Oct. 23, 1999 Oct. 14, 2000 Oct. 06, 2001 Oct. 19, 2002 Oct. 11, 2003 Oct. 23, 2004 Oct. 15, 2005 Oct. 07, 2006 Oct. 27, 2007 Oct. 11, 2008 Oct. 03, 2009

Response:

Oct. 03, 1998 Oct. 23, 1999 Oct. 14, 2000 Oct. 06, 2001 Oct. 19, 2002 Oct. 11, 2003 Oct. 23, 2004 Oct. 15, 2005 Oct. 07, 2006 Oct. 27, 2007 Oct. 11, 2008 Oct. 03, 2009

Thanks Tracy, I have my calender marked for my next 2 age groups! Good Training, Good Racing, Joe Joseph C. Foster "People can’t understand why a man runs. They don’t see any sport in it, argue that it lacks the sight-thrill of body contact, the color of rough conflict. Yet the conflict is there, more raw and challenging than any man versus man competition. In (Triathlon) it is man against himself, the cruelest of all opponents. The other (racers) are not the real enemies. His adversary lies deep within him, in his ability, with brain and heart, to control and master himself and his emotions." – Glenn Cunningham

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Question:

I would prefer that the course is accurate but I really don’t care all that much. To me, there is no such thing as a triathlon PR. The closest I have ever come is racing the same local olympic distance year after year, and depending on the weather conditions, seeing if I can maintain instead of slow down. Of course I would be totally unhappy if any one leg turned out to be way longer than advertised. However, all competitors on that particular day had to compete over the exact same distance course, so I wouldn’t fret too much. I think race directors already do an unbelievable job and I’m not going to flame them for a course that is 1/4 too long or too short simply because I thought I might have PR’ed if it was accurate. Cathy Corning – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -While I felt awesome about my performance (great swim, great bike, great run) I can’t help but wonder how others may have felt having the course "short". I know some were obviously upset and other’s didn’t seem to care …. what’s the opinions of those out on RST? Do you feel "cheated" if the course isn’t exactly the way it is advertised? Are you leniant when it isn’t correct? Would you ask for your money back?

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Dennis, The accuracy of triathlon leg distances of many races over the years have been notoriuously inaccurate. Why that is I am not exactly sure. I have known many RD’s in my time and some of them have some rather interesting ways of figuring out how far each leg is. The classic one for the swim and run is for an RD(or someone involved with the race) to run for say 35 min. and call that "10K". Same for the swim – swim out into the water for say 15 min and call that "750m". Double back and call it "1.5K". It’s been my experience that bike courses, because they are often measured with a car odometer are more often than not fairly accurate. I have known RD’s who have consistantly made the swim shorter than it should be, because according to them, people don’t like swimming.( Fine by me. I’m no big fan of swimming either) I have done races  on two separate weekeneds where my swim split for "1.5K" on one week is the same as for "2K" the following week. I’m a pretty strong runner, but even I have rolled my eyes after knocking down a sub 32 min "10K" on a brutally hilly run leg. The knowledgable media does the same and this sport is still searching for media credibility Part of the problem is the logistical nightmare of trying to set up a tri course. It has to close to water. Roads have to be closed to traffic or have light traffic.Should the run be on trails or roads, multiple loops, one loop or out and back . . and so on. I am not sure "cheated" is the right word if a leg is not actually the length that it was advertised and promoted as. Everyone runs the same course, hopefully. I am not too hung up on every race being measured down to the centimetre. Small races and some historical races have some odd distances that are not aften very accurate. That’s what makes the, fun and in some cases challengeing. However, Big important races should strive to make their courses as accurate as possible. Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking for opinions here … I participated in a race this weekend where both run courses (sprint and olympic) were incorrectly marked and both came up short by about .5 mile. Not exactly sure why it was mis-marked, but it was. I was shooting a PR that day, to break 2:15:00 in the Olympic distance. Well, I did 2:11:50 … however, that is my time on the shorter run course. Had I been on a properly measured course I might have been just over 2:15:00 (still a huger PR over last year!). While I felt awesome about my performance (great swim, great bike, great run) I can’t help but wonder how others may have felt having the course "short". I know some were obviously upset and other’s didn’t seem to care …. what’s the opinions of those out on RST? Do you feel "cheated" if the course isn’t exactly the way it is advertised? Are you leniant when it isn’t correct? Would you ask for your money back? I am merely asking this out of a curiosity standpoint, not to flame the RD, because they do a great job normally, but this day something was miscommunicated. BTW, they did reply with an apology on their website, however they didn’t at the race because it wasn’t *verified* at that time that the course was short. So how would you feel? Dennis Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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If the swim is shorter than advertised and the bike is longer, I’ll pay double! Todd Jensen

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run courses (sprint and olympic) were incorrectly marked and both came up short by about .5 mile. Not exactly sure why it was mis-marked, but it was. So how would you feel? PO’d. That’s 800m adrift. Was this laziness or incompetence??? With ready access to bikes and cyclocomputers there is no excuse not to get the distance down to within 10 or 20m. Make sure you lodge a polite complaint. Then you can expect the organisers to get it right next year.

If this is the same Portland area race I was in, then there was a lot wrong with how it worked.  The dog and pony show about drafting was semi-impressive, but the draft marshals sure were blind.  I was behind a pack of draft maniacs for the last 5 miles, and the requisite 4 bike lengths back.  the post race feed was the leftovers from a steak house. Yecch!  Water was tough to find off the course. And then their high tech equipment blocked the awarding of trophies for all. All in all, it was a sad day for the management company and the name sponsor who shall remain anonymous. Rob — Rob Blomquist aka TriDog Seattle, WA http://www2.jps.net/~robbo

Response:

Thanks to those who have been responding to this thread (and to those that would like to continue). It’s very interesting some of the responses … from "no big deal" to "pissed off". Just to clarify, I was personally very, very happy with my performance at this race. So personally, I am not lodging a complaint or asking for my money back. I was just curious as to the reaction. Steve Gregg posted, "why would anyone care about their Olympic distance PR" and brought up some good points about where you are situated in the transition area, etc. affecting that PR. Personally, any PR I am after is more a "goal" than a PR. Let’s face it, as Steve hints, you can’t compare one Olympic course to the next due the differences in terrain, water temp, weather, race day crowd, etc. You can’t even "really" compare the same course year to year based on certain factors, such as weather or wind. But you can have a "goal" to shoot for and in this case, mine was to break 2:15:00 for the 1.5k/40k/10k distance. I specifically wanted to do it at this race because it is the most consistent in terms of terrain (i.e., flat). Keep in mind the course was not mentioned, prior to the start, to be short. If I had known this I would have changed tactics and reset my goals to meet the "new" distance. It wasn’t until two day’s after the event that it was officially reported to be short (though "unofficially" we all knew this the day off -having just set PR’s in everyone’s 10k’s) Again, myself and many, many others had a great time overall. The race was very well organized on the whole, but here was no excuse for the course to be short (i.e., there was no construction, washouts, etc.) It was just an error on the course managers part. They have learned their lesson and I seriously doubt it will happen again. Thanks again for everyones’ input. Keep posting for those who would like to add. Dennis

Response:

So how would you feel?

I was a little bummed when the swim course in the Thundergust Tri was less than .25 mi (advertised as .5 mi).  And I had worked the hardest this winter on my swimming. But, hey, at least I can say that I was less than 2 minutes behind the race leader after the swim I was much more bummed with the lack of marshalls on the bike course, because I got passed by a pack of 20 riding together. – Lou

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It would bother me, but I would not ask for my money back. I might send the RD a letter politely asking him to provide exact distances in the race flyer next time. With a calibrated bike computer, very accurate distances are easy to obtain for the bike and run legs. The swim is a different story. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Looking for opinions here … I participated in a race this weekend where both run courses (sprint and olympic) were incorrectly marked and both came up short by about .5 mile. Not exactly sure why it was mis-marked, but it was. I was shooting a PR that day, to break 2:15:00 in the Olympic distance. Well, I did 2:11:50 … however, that is my time on the shorter run course. Had I been on a properly measured course I might have been just over 2:15:00 (still a huger PR over last year!). While I felt awesome about my performance (great swim, great bike, great run) I can’t help but wonder how others may have felt having the course "short". I know some were obviously upset and other’s didn’t seem to care …. what’s the opinions of those out on RST? Do you feel "cheated" if the course isn’t exactly the way it is advertised? Are you leniant when it isn’t correct? Would you ask for your money back? I am merely asking this out of a curiosity standpoint, not to flame the RD, because they do a great job normally, but this day something was miscommunicated. BTW, they did reply with an apology on their website, however they didn’t at the race because it wasn’t *verified* at that time that the course was short. So how would you feel? Dennis

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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run courses (sprint and olympic) were incorrectly marked and both came up short by about .5 mile. Not exactly sure why it was mis-marked, but it was. So how would you feel?

PO’d. That’s 800m adrift. Was this laziness or incompetence??? With ready access to bikes and cyclocomputers there is no excuse not to get the distance down to within 10 or 20m. Make sure you lodge a polite complaint. Then you can expect the organisers to get it right next year.   Miles —  "Focus. Relaxed Form. Stay smooth. Flow. Breathe."   – gapo ‘98 Cut the .europe if you prefer to reply by email

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Dennis, I too was on course for a dramatic PR in the sprint distance (I was running 6:30 min miles when my old PR was 7:00!) and was very surprised to come up on the finish line several minutes before I thought that I should have. Consequently, I finished with a lot left in the tank.  I was definetly disappointed.  Not only was the course short though, the 5k turn around point was poorly marked and most of the top 15-20 competitors missed it.  This left my first top 10 finish somewhat tarnished.  AAsports gave these people the option of waiving the entry fee for Hagg Lake in July and removal of their time from the results or a two minute time credit (although many of them lost in excess of 10 min).  So to answer your question, yes I am very dissapointed but, no I wouldn’t ask for a refund.  The race was still excellent, just shorter than advertised.  I would love to come back next year. Dan P.S. I was told that they used the markers from last years race on accident to set up the run course turnarounds.  Last years race followed a different course apparently which resulted in the .54 mile discrepency.

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I don’t know if cheated would be the correct word that I would use. I would be rather unhappy though. I’ve volunteered at many races as well has helping to run others, and I understand that it is an organizational nightmare.  I appreciate all the work RDs do, and perhaps someday may want to become a RD myself. However, putting this admiration aside, there is _ABSOLUTELY NO REASON_ why a race course can’t be accurate.  That’s the most basic of all the things they have to do, and possibly the most important. When you register for a race that’s advertised as 1.5k, 40k, 10k, you expect to run 6.2 miles, not 8, not 4 1/2, but 6.2.  Same goes for the swim and the bike.  I realize that sometimes road closings and construction make for a difficult course barrier, but advertising a race at its correct length isn’t a sin, even if it is shorter. The importance of measuring the course correctly, is two-fold.  First, for the guys up in front, a short course can have a huge effect on the race results.  I’m reminded of a friend of mine who is strictly a runner, and he’s very good.  At a 5k a few years ago, he was in second place right behind the leader.  Thinking that the race was 5k in length he got ready to make his move, but the finish line never seemed to come.  He looked at his watch, which showed a much slower time that he had expected.  Well after the next couple of minutes he realized that he had better focus on finishing rather than winning because he didn’t have enough in him to cover the distance and also push the pace.  Finally after an additional mile or so, the finish line appeared, but by that time he couldn’t cover the gap.   Perhaps he wouldn’t have caught up with the guy anyway, but if the race distance was measured correctly, it definitely would have been closer. This brings me to the other danger with the situation, the BOPs.  In this same situation, imagine an individual who had trained months and months to complete their first 5k.  This becomes a very dangerous situation for someone not ready (or able) physically to go the extra distance.  Its just plain not safe from a health standpoint. I am obviously taking this to an extreme since most individuals doing an olympic distance race aren’t going to be affected too much by going an extra half-mile, nor will the results be changed too much by shortening the course the same distance.  However, there will be an affect. This is not to suggest that different olympic distances are comparable, I would agree that they are not equivalent for multiple different reasons as others have suggested. I will, however, argue that the length of a course is of paramount concern.  Its the easiest thing to get right, and quite possibly the most important. When distances are off, or mile markers are placed incorrectly, I lose a lot of respect for a race.  If a race director can’t get that right, its just being sloppy, and there’s no excuse for that. My $.02 Jeff Larson says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Looking for opinions here … I participated in a race this weekend wher e both run courses (sprint and olympic) were incorrectly marked and both came u p short by about .5 mile. Not exactly sure why it was mis-marked, but it was. I was shooting a PR that day, to break 2:15:00 in the Olympic distance. Well, I did 2:11:50 … however, that is my time on the shorter run course. Had I been on a properly measured course I might have been just over 2:15:00 (still a huger PR over last year!). While I felt awesome about my performance (great swim, great bike, great run) I can’t help but wonder how others may have felt having the course "short" . I know some were obviously upset and other’s didn’t seem to care …. what ’s the opinions of those out on RST? Do you feel "cheated" if the course isn’t exactly the way it is advertised? Are you leniant when it isn’t correct? Would y ou ask for your money back? I am merely asking this out of a curiosity standpoint, not to flame the RD, because they do a great job normally, but this day something was miscommunicated. BTW, they did reply with an apology on their website, h owever they didn’t at the race because it wasn’t *verified* at that time that t he course was short. So how would you feel? Dennis

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Maybe I havn’t taken the whole sport of Triathlon to the next level yet, but I think of the courses as more like certain trail runs, where your personal best is related more to the course than other races. I am sure that you have been on courses of equal distance, of various difficulty because of conditions and terrain. I would say beat your PR from last year at the same race, and then go back next year and beat the 2:11, even if they do fix the course. Overall I wonder what the margin of error is in distances as a whole in road races and triathlons? That would be interesting.

  vcard.vcf

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Looking for opinions here … I participated in a race this weekend where both run courses (sprint and olympic) were incorrectly marked and both came up short by about .5 mile. Not exactly sure why it was mis-marked, but it was. I was shooting a PR that day, to break 2:15:00 in the Olympic distance. Well, I did 2:11:50 … however, that is my time on the shorter run course. Had I been on a properly measured course I might have been just over 2:15:00 (still a huger PR over last year!). While I felt awesome about my performance (great swim, great bike, great run) I can’t help but wonder how others may have felt having the course "short". I know some were obviously upset and other’s didn’t seem to care …. what’s the opinions of those out on RST? Do you feel "cheated" if the course isn’t exactly the way it is advertised? Are you leniant when it isn’t correct? Would you ask for your money back? I am merely asking this out of a curiosity standpoint, not to flame the RD, because they do a great job normally, but this day something was miscommunicated. BTW, they did reply with an apology on their website, however they didn’t at the race because it wasn’t *verified* at that time that the course was short. So how would you feel? Dennis

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      I agree with all that has been said before–I’m really not sure why anyone would care about their "Olympic distance PR".  Your time also depends a great deal on where you are in the transition area!  At a big race like Wildflower, the lucky folks with transition spots up front will have times several minutes faster than us older age-group males, who always seem to get stuck in the very back.  So even within the same race, trying to make direct comparisons of times often doesn’t make sense. –Steve Gregg  

Response:

Looking for opinions here … I participated in a race this weekend where both run courses (sprint and olympic) were incorrectly marked and both came up short by about .5 mile. Not exactly sure why it was mis-marked, but it was.

SNIP So how would you feel?

Dennis, I would not feel cheated.  Let me explain.   I am a runner in his second triathlon season.  To me it seems that triathlons vary a lot depending on course, conditions, etc.  Running races do as well, but triathlons because of the 3 events depend more on the course. I know my PR for 5k, 10k, marathon etc, but for triathlons I figure for each course.  A 2:15 for one course might be in the elite ranks, yet MOP for an "easier" course. Enjoy your success and improvement.  Plus if you are that much better than last year, you will do it again; the season is still young.  (It will give you something to look forward to.) -sam

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Question:

Those are indeed, some nice results!! Steve Fleck

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Anyone hear results from Nice, France – 1997 World Long Course Championships. Please post to group or notify me directly. Cheers, Mike — Mike Sandomirsky Executive Director Alberta Triathlon Association Alberta, Canada

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TOP 10 RESULTS ITU ARENA LONG DISTANCE TRIATHLON WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS Nice, France Women:     1.   Ines Estedt, GER           6.12.04 2.   Isabelle Mouthon, FRA      6.19.04 3.   Virgina Berasategui, ESP   6.23.33 4.   Christine de Wit, NED      6.31.10 5.   Mieke Suys, BEL            6.33.38 6.   Beatrice Mouthon, FRA      6.35.14 7.   Marie Overbye, DEN         6.35.47 8.   Kari Bailey, CAN           6.38.13 9.   Juliana Nievergelt, USA    6.43.30 10.  Veronique Chastel, FRA     6:47:18 1.   Luc van Lierde, BEL        5.35.44 2.   Rob Barel, NED             5.39.48 3.   Jean Chis Guinchard, SUI   5.41.00 4.   Peter Sandvang, DEN        5.43.08 5.   Christoph Mauch, SUI       5.46.43 6.   Gilles Reboul, FRA         5.48.02 7.   Andreas Niedrig, GER       5.49.44 8.   Vassilis Krommidas, GRE    5.49.56 9.   Olivier Marceau, FRA       5.50.10 10.  Xavier Galea, FRA          5.51.37

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Question:

Hi how can I get a good training program? I have maked a performance test and now I want to become as good as possible in the next 3 years (Ironman) Now I need 10h 45min. I am a student so I do not have so much money. thanks sven

Response:

Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Hi how can I get a good training program? I have maked a performance test and now I want to become as good as possible in the next 3 years (Ironman) Now I need 10h 45min. I am a student so I do not have so much money. thanks sven

Response:

Hi how can I get a good training program?

You can try to search the WWW for interesting tri-websites /Fredrik Olsson, Sweden

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Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Organization: – Hi how can I get a good training program?

You can try to search the WWW for interesting tri-websites /Fredrik Olsson, Sweden

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: Hi : how can I get a good training program? I have maked a performance test : and now I want to become as good as possible in the next 3 years (Ironman) : Now I need 10h 45min. I am a student so I do not have so much money. : thanks sven You can enroll at CU – Boulder:) Jim

Response:

Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Organization: SuperNet Inc. (303)-296-8202 Denver Colorado

: Hi : how can I get a good training program? I have maked a performance test : and now I want to become as good as possible in the next 3 years (Ironman) : Now I need 10h 45min. I am a student so I do not have so much money. : thanks sven You can enroll at CU – Boulder:) Jim

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Question:

:The reason women do so well in ultras is actually pretty simple.  The :primary physical advantages that men have are size & strength, and those :don’t help you as much as the race length increases and the pacing :decreases.  If you look at mens and womens world records in track or :swimming, and normalize for total finish time (i.e. examine pace only) :you’ll find that as the distance increases the numbers approach each ther asymptotically.  I’ve now seen this assertion made so often I think its become part of running folklore.  However, for the track records, it is not true. Indeed it is only with the advent of the Chinese distance runners that the *opposite* is no longer true (i.e.  FloJo’s times were a smaller percentage of Carl Lewis’s than their 10k equivalents).  This led me to assert that the Chineses athlete were as drug-free as FloJo, which as I recall caused an amusing flamewar.  Of course, since both speeds tend to zero eventually, the *arithmetic* difference between them tends to zero, but that is obviously the wrong statistic to look at.                    Graeme

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The reason women do so well in ultras is actually pretty simple.  The primary physical advantages that men have are size & strength, and those don’t help you as much as the race length increases and the pacing decreases.  If you look at mens and womens world records in track or swimming, and normalize for total finish time (i.e. examine pace only) you’ll find that as the distance increases the numbers approach each other asymptotically.  It has been suggested, in fact, that the only reason men still generally win the longest races is that more men participate in the sports, i.e. men draw from a larger gene pool.                                         — Ed

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| The reason women do so well in ultras is actually pretty simple.  The | primary physical advantages that men have are size & strength, and those | don’t help you as much as the race length increases and the pacing | decreases.  If you look at mens and womens world records in track or | swimming… Well, swimming and bike/triathlon have a law-of-physics that *any* talent advantage is narrowed down as air/water resistance rises worse than proportionally by speed.  And in the case of swimming there have been theories for many years that better flotation is helpful thus lower body density thus any gender advantage might tend to reverse.  I cannot recall which gender currently owns the record for English Channel swims but do recall that Donna Devarona (spelling?) of ABC Sports was the first person in history to perform some particular ultra-swim. WRT to size and strength, I’ll report a personal anecdote:  being an ultra wannabe, I tagged along in an ultra and some men groused jealously over the best woman (Sue Olsen) having so little weight to carry. Anyway, I am trying to figure out whether ultras naturally reduce or eliminate or reverse the gender advantage that appears in shorter runs. The reason I brought up statistics is that in large marathons we usually see that just a few percent of the men are able to outrun the first woman, so if the order of magnitude gets down to a population of 100 then the expected number of male leaders is already just a few so a "medalist" finish by a woman is expectable even if the short-distance gender advantage remains in effect, and only a few people need to have a bad day for a female overall-win to occur. Matt Mahoney has reported that the WS100 population is a half-order-of-mag larger than what I was thinking, so my statistical logic is probably not so relevant. — Gordon K. Chace                                 voice (612) 482-6524 OpenVision Technologies, Inc.                   fax   (612) 482-2383 RISC: Really Invented on the Sixty-six-hundred by CDC

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Well, the simplest explanation for high placements (and occasional wins) by women would be that ultras have small enough participation that

   I read the rest of your text, but I totally disagree with this statement.  I lifeguard for the UC Berkeley pool system and this Spring I was able to see why Ann Trason usually places in first or second overall.  She would show up to aqua-jog and when I left 2.5 hrs later she would still be hammering along in a 30 foot long diving well (BORING!!!), but she has the tenacity to stick with it.  I think the statistical deviations favor Ann more in a willpower sense than a few women in ultra sense.    I just wanted to give credit to someone who has earned some respect. My $0.02. RLR

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I think the concept of small samples makes sense for some of the smaller races where there are only 20-50 runners. In Ann’s Trason’s case her winning of a quicksilver (a fairly large field) and her performance in Western States (one of the best fields year in and year out in ultras) show that she is something special.  Also in an ultra the endurance takes precedence to some degree over the strength. This is shown by the relative mix in body types of the top ultra runners. Your see the ‘typical’ marathon types (skinny scrawny types) but you also see more substantial people doing well. I was up just wandering aroud at western states this year and ann was awesome. She was about 12th or so at 25 miles and slowly moved up to second throughout the day. Tim was the only one that showed the same consistency and thus he won… It was interesting that Tim outran his pacer after 20 miles (from 62 to 82). The top ultra people are a differant species or something. jim pepin

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Men: Tim Tweitmeyer, Auburn CA           16:51:01 Joe Schlereth, Fresno CA            17:51:06 Dave Scott, Freemont CA             18:19:53

Is this Dave Scott, the triathlete? Women: Ann Trason, Kensington CA           17:37:51

2nd overall, not bad! #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

Response:

Men: Tim Tweitmeyer, Auburn CA           16:51:01 Joe Schlereth, Fresno CA            17:51:06 Dave Scott, Freemont CA             18:19:53 Is this Dave Scott, the triathlete?

No. Women: Ann Trason, Kensington CA           17:37:51 2nd overall, not bad!

Ann is truly remarkable.  She routinely places top 5 *overall* in ultras.  Proof(?) that in endurance (i.e. "non-power") sports women can truly complete on a level playing field with men. —    LSC (aka Larry Chapman)    (303) 229-3117

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Men: Tim Tweitmeyer, Auburn CA           16:51:01 Joe Schlereth, Fresno CA            17:51:06 Dave Scott, Freemont CA             18:19:53 Is this Dave Scott, the triathlete?

No, Dave Scott was at the Nice Triathlon last weekend.  Thanks to #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

Response:

The Dave Scott in the Western States 100 is an Ultra Runner who lives in Fremont Ca. I know him quite well. I also paced him thru 18 miles (from 62 to 80) in the WS 100. His younger brother come in 7th place for the second year in a row. This Dave Scott holds 3-4 course records for 50K to 50M distances. The 2nd place man (Joe S.), who was 3rd overall, is a Masters runner (40+). Tim Tweitmeyer has now won this race twice. The two years he has won it have been when Tom Johnson (3 time winner) has not compeated. Ann T., who has now finished 3rd, 3rd, and this year 2nd. makes the race exciting because all the top male runners are always wondering how far back she is. If you ever have the chance, go up the WS 100 and either volunteer at an aid station or volunteer to help pace one of the runners. Many runners are from out of town and do not know anyone. You can sign up to pace a runner at mile 62 in Foresthill. Runners are allowed to have pacers from mile 62 to the finish in Auburn. Happy Trails…..  Matt Mahoney : Men: : Tim Tweitmeyer, Auburn CA           16:51:01 : Joe Schlereth, Fresno CA            17:51:06 : Dave Scott, Freemont CA             18:19:53 : Is this Dave Scott, the triathlete? : Women: : Ann Trason, Kensington CA           17:37:51 : 2nd overall, not bad! : #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

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| Ann Trason, Kensington CA           17:37:51 | | 2nd overall, not bad! | | Ann is truly remarkable.  She routinely places top 5 *overall* in | ultras.  Proof(?) that in endurance (i.e. "non-power") sports women | can truly complete on a level playing field with men. Well, the simplest explanation for high placements (and occasional wins) by women would be that ultras have small enough participation that statistical fluctuations have a reasonable chance to occur, versus standard marathons with thousands of participants.  Certainly we see that world-record performances from 100 meters thru 42,195 meters indicate a gender advantage of 10 to 12 percentage points by measure of speed, and large marathons mixing elites with ordinaries show a non-overlapping population of 1 to 2 percent. I have heard a theory-beyond-statistics which is that female biochemistry evolved so as to provide a better chance to survive when conditions are lethal (weather, starvation, whatever).  I cannot recall whether the author of this theory had any science to back it up, or just made an assertion, thus I mention it only to see if any other rec.runners know it better. Here in Minnesota we have Sue Olsen who has won at least one 24 hour race (anybody got fresh results for last weekend’s FANS event?) and has placed second at least one other time.  And in another Minnesota event we once had an out-of-state visitor win 100K outright as a *master’s* female. — Gordon K. Chace                                 voice (612) 482-6524 OpenVision Technologies, Inc.                   fax   (612) 482-2383 RISC: Really Invented on the Sixty-six-hundred by CDC

Response:

Well, the simplest explanation for high placements (and occasional wins) by women would be that ultras have small enough participation …

This is hard to explain at Western States, which had 375 starters, and 249 finishers (86 under 24 hours).  Furthermore, Western States has the strictest qualifying standards of any 100 mile race, so she was competing against a strong field (as you can see by the high finishing rate). The qualifying standards for WS100 varies by age group and length of the qualifying race, which must be at least 50 miles.  For men under 40 (me), it’s 50 miles in 9 hours, vs. 12 hours for most 100’s. #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

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Question:

(the following was posted in the Ultrarunning list:) Men: Tim Tweitmeyer, Auburn CA           16:51:01 Joe Schlereth, Fresno CA            17:51:06 Dave Scott, Freemont CA             18:19:53 Mike Pelechaty, Toledo OH           19:00:41 Ben Hian, Encinitas CA              19:16:12 Jim Scott, Chico CA                 19:21:22 Jerry Wittenauer, Palo Alto CA      19:27:30 Bill Finkbeiner, Auburn CA          19:49:18 Wayne Miles, Diamond Springs CA     19:49:18 Rudy Goldstein, Santa Rosa CA       20:16:27 Women: Ann Trason, Kensington CA           17:37:51 Evelyn Marshall, San Diego CA       21:13:18 Helga Backhaus, Germany             21:20:20 Suzie Lister, San Ramon CA          21:29:38 Lynn O’Malley, Edmonds WA           22:01:07 Michele Vandehok, Reno NV           23:25:27 Diane Ridgway, Denver CO            23:31:34 Elaina McMahon, Ridgecrest CA       24:18:27 Cheryl Rippel, Edmonton AB          24:24:35 Martha Cederstrom, San Rafael CA    26:20:36 Silicon Graphics Inc., M/S 120                        Phone:(415)390-5822 P.O. Box 7311, 1295 Charleston Road                   FAX:  (415)962-1589 Mt. View, CA  94039-7311                                "I (heart) Tonks"                         SGI Express phone numbers: U.S. / Canada: 1-800-800-7441                          U.K.: 0800 440 440 Germany: 0130 811 011                                  France: 05 244 244

Response:

Men: Tim Tweitmeyer, Auburn CA           16:51:01 Joe Schlereth, Fresno CA            17:51:06 Dave Scott, Freemont CA             18:19:53

Is this Dave Scott, the triathlete? Women: Ann Trason, Kensington CA           17:37:51

2nd overall, not bad! #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

Response:

Men: Tim Tweitmeyer, Auburn CA           16:51:01 Joe Schlereth, Fresno CA            17:51:06 Dave Scott, Freemont CA             18:19:53 Is this Dave Scott, the triathlete?

No. Women: Ann Trason, Kensington CA           17:37:51 2nd overall, not bad!

Ann is truly remarkable.  She routinely places top 5 *overall* in ultras.  Proof(?) that in endurance (i.e. "non-power") sports women can truly complete on a level playing field with men. —    LSC (aka Larry Chapman)    (303) 229-3117

Response:

Men: Tim Tweitmeyer, Auburn CA           16:51:01 Joe Schlereth, Fresno CA            17:51:06 Dave Scott, Freemont CA             18:19:53 Is this Dave Scott, the triathlete?

No, Dave Scott was at the Nice Triathlon last weekend.  Thanks to #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

Response:

The Dave Scott in the Western States 100 is an Ultra Runner who lives in Fremont Ca. I know him quite well. I also paced him thru 18 miles (from 62 to 80) in the WS 100. His younger brother come in 7th place for the second year in a row. This Dave Scott holds 3-4 course records for 50K to 50M distances. The 2nd place man (Joe S.), who was 3rd overall, is a Masters runner (40+). Tim Tweitmeyer has now won this race twice. The two years he has won it have been when Tom Johnson (3 time winner) has not compeated. Ann T., who has now finished 3rd, 3rd, and this year 2nd. makes the race exciting because all the top male runners are always wondering how far back she is. If you ever have the chance, go up the WS 100 and either volunteer at an aid station or volunteer to help pace one of the runners. Many runners are from out of town and do not know anyone. You can sign up to pace a runner at mile 62 in Foresthill. Runners are allowed to have pacers from mile 62 to the finish in Auburn. Happy Trails…..  Matt Mahoney : Men: : Tim Tweitmeyer, Auburn CA           16:51:01 : Joe Schlereth, Fresno CA            17:51:06 : Dave Scott, Freemont CA             18:19:53 : Is this Dave Scott, the triathlete? : Women: : Ann Trason, Kensington CA           17:37:51 : 2nd overall, not bad! : #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

Response:

Western States 100 Results: Men: Tim Tweitmeyer, Auburn CA           16:51:01 Joe Schlereth, Fresno CA            17:51:06 Women: Ann Trason, Kensington CA           17:37:51

Ann Trason is, IMHO, the best female athlete we have seen in a long time, maybe ever.  She regular comes in 2nd or 3rd OVERALL in these Ultras. Amazing… Sean

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| Ann Trason, Kensington CA           17:37:51 | | 2nd overall, not bad! | | Ann is truly remarkable.  She routinely places top 5 *overall* in | ultras.  Proof(?) that in endurance (i.e. "non-power") sports women | can truly complete on a level playing field with men. Well, the simplest explanation for high placements (and occasional wins) by women would be that ultras have small enough participation that statistical fluctuations have a reasonable chance to occur, versus standard marathons with thousands of participants.  Certainly we see that world-record performances from 100 meters thru 42,195 meters indicate a gender advantage of 10 to 12 percentage points by measure of speed, and large marathons mixing elites with ordinaries show a non-overlapping population of 1 to 2 percent. I have heard a theory-beyond-statistics which is that female biochemistry evolved so as to provide a better chance to survive when conditions are lethal (weather, starvation, whatever).  I cannot recall whether the author of this theory had any science to back it up, or just made an assertion, thus I mention it only to see if any other rec.runners know it better. Here in Minnesota we have Sue Olsen who has won at least one 24 hour race (anybody got fresh results for last weekend’s FANS event?) and has placed second at least one other time.  And in another Minnesota event we once had an out-of-state visitor win 100K outright as a *master’s* female. — Gordon K. Chace                                 voice (612) 482-6524 OpenVision Technologies, Inc.                   fax   (612) 482-2383 RISC: Really Invented on the Sixty-six-hundred by CDC

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Well, the simplest explanation for high placements (and occasional wins) by women would be that ultras have small enough participation that

   I read the rest of your text, but I totally disagree with this statement.  I lifeguard for the UC Berkeley pool system and this Spring I was able to see why Ann Trason usually places in first or second overall.  She would show up to aqua-jog and when I left 2.5 hrs later she would still be hammering along in a 30 foot long diving well (BORING!!!), but she has the tenacity to stick with it.  I think the statistical deviations favor Ann more in a willpower sense than a few women in ultra sense.    I just wanted to give credit to someone who has earned some respect. My $0.02. RLR

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I think the concept of small samples makes sense for some of the smaller races where there are only 20-50 runners. In Ann’s Trason’s case her winning of a quicksilver (a fairly large field) and her performance in Western States (one of the best fields year in and year out in ultras) show that she is something special.  Also in an ultra the endurance takes precedence to some degree over the strength. This is shown by the relative mix in body types of the top ultra runners. Your see the ‘typical’ marathon types (skinny scrawny types) but you also see more substantial people doing well. I was up just wandering aroud at western states this year and ann was awesome. She was about 12th or so at 25 miles and slowly moved up to second throughout the day. Tim was the only one that showed the same consistency and thus he won… It was interesting that Tim outran his pacer after 20 miles (from 62 to 82). The top ultra people are a differant species or something. jim pepin

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Well, the simplest explanation for high placements (and occasional wins) by women would be that ultras have small enough participation …

This is hard to explain at Western States, which had 375 starters, and 249 finishers (86 under 24 hours).  Furthermore, Western States has the strictest qualifying standards of any 100 mile race, so she was competing against a strong field (as you can see by the high finishing rate). The qualifying standards for WS100 varies by age group and length of the qualifying race, which must be at least 50 miles.  For men under 40 (me), it’s 50 miles in 9 hours, vs. 12 hours for most 100’s. #include "disclaimer.h"                |____|

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The reason women do so well in ultras is actually pretty simple.  The primary physical advantages that men have are size & strength, and those don’t help you as much as the race length increases and the pacing decreases.  If you look at mens and womens world records in track or swimming, and normalize for total finish time (i.e. examine pace only) you’ll find that as the distance increases the numbers approach each other asymptotically.  It has been suggested, in fact, that the only reason men still generally win the longest races is that more men participate in the sports, i.e. men draw from a larger gene pool.                                         — Ed

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| The reason women do so well in ultras is actually pretty simple.  The | primary physical advantages that men have are size & strength, and those | don’t help you as much as the race length increases and the pacing | decreases.  If you look at mens and womens world records in track or | swimming… Well, swimming and bike/triathlon have a law-of-physics that *any* talent advantage is narrowed down as air/water resistance rises worse than proportionally by speed.  And in the case of swimming there have been theories for many years that better flotation is helpful thus lower body density thus any gender advantage might tend to reverse.  I cannot recall which gender currently owns the record for English Channel swims but do recall that Donna Devarona (spelling?) of ABC Sports was the first person in history to perform some particular ultra-swim. WRT to size and strength, I’ll report a personal anecdote:  being an ultra wannabe, I tagged along in an ultra and some men groused jealously over the best woman (Sue Olsen) having so little weight to carry. Anyway, I am trying to figure out whether ultras naturally reduce or eliminate or reverse the gender advantage that appears in shorter runs. The reason I brought up statistics is that in large marathons we usually see that just a few percent of the men are able to outrun the first woman, so if the order of magnitude gets down to a population of 100 then the expected number of male leaders is already just a few so a "medalist" finish by a woman is expectable even if the short-distance gender advantage remains in effect, and only a few people need to have a bad day for a female overall-win to occur. Matt Mahoney has reported that the WS100 population is a half-order-of-mag larger than what I was thinking, so my statistical logic is probably not so relevant. — Gordon K. Chace                                 voice (612) 482-6524 OpenVision Technologies, Inc.                   fax   (612) 482-2383 RISC: Really Invented on the Sixty-six-hundred by CDC

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:The reason women do so well in ultras is actually pretty simple.  The :primary physical advantages that men have are size & strength, and those :don’t help you as much as the race length increases and the pacing :decreases.  If you look at mens and womens world records in track or :swimming, and normalize for total finish time (i.e. examine pace only) :you’ll find that as the distance increases the numbers approach each ther asymptotically.  I’ve now seen this assertion made so often I think its become part of running folklore.  However, for the track records, it is not true. Indeed it is only with the advent of the Chinese distance runners that the *opposite* is no longer true (i.e.  FloJo’s times were a smaller percentage of Carl Lewis’s than their 10k equivalents).  This led me to assert that the Chineses athlete were as drug-free as FloJo, which as I recall caused an amusing flamewar.  Of course, since both speeds tend to zero eventually, the *arithmetic* difference between them tends to zero, but that is obviously the wrong statistic to look at.                    Graeme

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