Question:

The biathlon has shooting and skiing. When triathlons first originated was it running, shooting, biking.  Were the guns carried on the bike or on the run? I guess liability concerns made swimming take the place of the shooting?

Which triathlons are you speaking of?  The pentalon had it, along with fencing, but I don’t recall run, bike, shoot at any point.   But it doesn’t sound like a bad idea.  I’m going to think about where it could be successfully staged in the Bay Area.  And should the penalty loop for misses by on the bike, run, or athlete choice? — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

Which triathlons are you speaking of?  The pentalon had it, along with fencing, but I don’t recall run, bike, shoot at any point. But it doesn’t sound like a bad idea.  I’m going to think about where it could be successfully staged in the Bay Area.  And should the penalty loop for misses by on the bike, run, or athlete choice? —

It would sure solve the problem of drafting on the bike!

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When triathlons first originated was it running, shooting, biking.  Were the guns carried on the bike or on the run?

Somebody want to give this guy a history lesson? -Harold

Response:

Pick up a book on the history of triathlon.  Shooting was never involved, dude.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The biathlon has shooting and skiing. When triathlons first originated was it running, shooting, biking.  Were the guns carried on the bike or on the run? I guess liability concerns made swimming take the place of the shooting?

Response:

About 14 years ago, when I last participated in multisport events, the term "biathlon" was commonly used to describe the run-bike-run events now known as duathlons.  That may be what led to the confusion. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pick up a book on the history of triathlon.  Shooting was never involved, dude. The biathlon has shooting and skiing. When triathlons first originated was it running, shooting, biking.  Were the guns carried on the bike or on the run? I guess liability concerns made swimming take the place of the shooting?

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One last thing. I didn’t see any of the numbers on this one but it comes from a good source (Phil Maffetone, worked with Mark Allen on his workouts) Do at least a 15 min warm up to your target heart rate. Doing this will supposedly help gear your body towards burning a higher rate of fat. Also don’t eat any carbs within 45min of your workout as this might gear your body towards burning sugar. (During a workout is fine ’cause the body’s insulin production is minimized.) I’ve not come across that last paragraph of info anywhere else, but the source is good and it doesn’t hurt any. Any feedback on this info is greatly appreciated. I just like to see sources if possible. You and I have somewhat different concepts on what represents a "good source", but in this case Maffetone has it right: consuming significant amounts of carbohydrate 45 min prior to exercise will tend to enhance reliance on carbohydrate and reduce reliance on fat for fuel. In fact, eating any carbohydrate in the *8 hours* prior to exercise will have this effect, at least compared to the mix of substrates oxidized after an overnight (12 hour) fast. Of course, this is all a bit of a moot point, since A) not everybody always exercises first thing in the morning w/o eating, and few would be willing to skip meals during the day to prepare for a workout, B) even if you did implement this strategy, you wouldn’t lose more weight, since body composition is a function of total energy, not just fat, balance. Since you ask for references, here are two related to the question at hand: Montain SJ, Hopper MK, Coggan AR, Coyle EF. Exercise metabolism at different time intervals after a meal. J. Appl. Physiol. 70:882-888, 1991. Coggan AR, Swanson SC. Nutritional manipulations before and during endurance exercise: effects on metabolism and performance. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 24:S331-S335, 1992.

            At least you are not off key – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Andrew Coggan Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One last thing. I didn’t see any of the numbers on this one but it comes from a good source (Phil Maffetone, worked with Mark Allen on his workouts) Do at least a 15 min warm up to your target heart rate. Doing this will supposedly help gear your body towards burning a higher rate of fat. Also don’t eat any carbs within 45min of your workout as this might gear your body towards burning sugar. (During a workout is fine ’cause the body’s insulin production is minimized.) I’ve not come across that last paragraph of info anywhere else, but the source is good and it doesn’t hurt any. Any feedback on this info is greatly appreciated. I just like to see sources if possible.

You and I have somewhat different concepts on what represents a "good source", but in this case Maffetone has it right: consuming significant amounts of carbohydrate 45 min prior to exercise will tend to enhance reliance on carbohydrate and reduce reliance on fat for fuel. In fact, eating any carbohydrate in the *8 hours* prior to exercise will have this effect, at least compared to the mix of substrates oxidized after an overnight (12 hour) fast. Of course, this is all a bit of a moot point, since A) not everybody always exercises first thing in the morning w/o eating, and few would be willing to skip meals during the day to prepare for a workout, B) even if you did implement this strategy, you wouldn’t lose more weight, since body composition is a function of total energy, not just fat, balance. Since you ask for references, here are two related to the question at hand: Montain SJ, Hopper MK, Coggan AR, Coyle EF. Exercise metabolism at different time intervals after a meal. J. Appl. Physiol. 70:882-888, 1991. Coggan AR, Swanson SC. Nutritional manipulations before and during endurance exercise: effects on metabolism and performance. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 24:S331-S335, 1992. Andrew Coggan Before you buy.

Response:

I think that it was Converse Bailey<sp that started this different view-point on training. The main thrust is: that for a given distance you will burn more fat if you go slower. This is supported in "Daniels’ Running Formula"  (this is a good training book) Easy Runs:  Long easy runs improve cell adaptation,  and lead to fluid loss, glycogen depletion,  and the ability to spare glycogen  and to rely more on *fat* as fuel. Barry Sears in "Enter The Zone":  Obviously,  you want to burn more fat than carbohydrate when you exercise. But if you begin exercising too hard, the demand on getting the fat from where it’s located to where you make energy is often the limiting step.  If the muscles can’t get enough fat, they switch over to using the stored carbohydrate that sits within the muscle. So if you want to lose fat LSD is the way to go (Long Slow Distance) but it won’t make you fast. Kevin

Response:

Have you trained this way and did it work for you?  How long did you have to ‘hold back’ at the lower HR before you picked up speed at the same HR?  Did you notice more body fat loss as a result of training this way? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is true. I find Sally’s methods a little to simplistic for the obsessive tri folk. But she’s right on the money here. Yes, the faster you go, the more calories you burn…But go ahead and set your high at 155bpm, go as slow as you need to keep that your max. You will burn less calories. You will even burn less fat calories. Although a higher percentage of them will be fat. Here’s the kicker…You will start to go faster at that slower heart rate. Eventually you will be going at your usual pace with a lower heart rate, now burning as many calories as you were before, but with a higher percentage of fat calories. Don’t forget, cutting fat out of your diet won’t help. I pour vegetable fat on everything (never heated) Troy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete magazine? She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training at too high of a heart rate" Is there any truth to this? Is there a definitive way to determine your max HR? I am 25 and feel great at 160-170 bpm. At 175 I start to "feel the burn", and at 185 I feel like I need to slow down or take a break. I could probably push my HR up to 195 or so before really ‘maxing’ out. Would that be my max HR then? (This fits the 220-25 formula, but 160-170bpm would be 82-87% of my max. But I feel GREAT at 160-170. And I AM trying to lose that last 5 pounds of body fat to be leaner for racing. Any thoughts? I’d have to walk to keep my HR below 160. Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

I think that it was Converse Bailey<sp that started this different view-point on training.

I’m afraid I’ve never heard of Converse Bailey… The main thrust is: that for a given distance you will burn more fat if you go slower.

This is true, but for a given distance you will expend more energy when you go faster (at least for cycling and swimming), and it is energy expenditure, not fat oxidation, that influences changes in body composition. This is supported in "Daniels’ Running Formula"  (this is a good training book) Easy Runs:  Long easy runs improve cell adaptation,  and lead to fluid loss, glycogen depletion,  and the ability to spare glycogen  and to rely more on *fat* as fuel.

Now Jack Daniels I know of (and know)…but he is hardly the inventor of endurance training, nor has he actually done much research on these metabolic adaptations you mention, nor (for that matter) is it necessary to exercise at a low(er) intensity to induce such adaptations…even high intensity interval training will have the same effect (perhaps even to a greater extent). Barry Sears in "Enter The Zone":  Obviously,  you want to burn more fat than carbohydrate when you exercise.

Why? Body composition is a matter of energy in vs. energy out. The form in which it is (fat vs. carbohydrate) has no effect, expect that it is easier to overeat fat calories (since fat-rich foods are quite energy dense, and, unlike consuming excess carbohydrate, consuming excess fat only slowly enhances the rate of fat oxidation). But if you begin exercising too hard, the demand on getting the fat from where it’s located to where you make energy is often the limiting step.  If the muscles can’t get enough fat, they switch over to using the stored carbohydrate that sits within the muscle.

This is essentially true, although keep in mind that there is considerable energy in form of fat (triglycerides) stored within muscle fibers, right next to the mitochondria…so, transport from adipose tissue to muscle isn’t necessarily the rate limiting step (in fact, during exercise only about 15% of all the fatty acids presented to muscle are taken up and utilized – the rest just goes floating right on by…). I  therefore believe it is better to think of it in terms of regulation (i.e., muscle prefers carbohydrate) rather than simple availability. So if you want to lose fat LSD is the way to go (Long Slow Distance) but it won’t make you fast.

Au contraire on both points: as I’ve mentioned previously, changes in body composition with training tend to be greatest in those who train the hardest. And there are numerous examples of people who are very fast even though they do nothing but LSD-type training (although they might be faster if they incorporated more high intensity training into their programs). Andrew Coggan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First off; I’m a 28 year old male 5′7" 130lbs, year round athletic background since age 5 (Yes, I think the long term athletic background makes a difference on how easy one gets fit, so I may have an advantage some do not.). I did not have to "hold back" for too long, I saw improvements right away. It took me about 3 months to work up to a decent speed and about 7 months to work up to where I was.  I am now going a little faster but with an easier effort. I was at 12% bf but am now bouncing between about 8% and 9% (using a tanita scale) I also was not getting much fat in my diet, but now get about 1200 to 1400 calories from fat every day.  All unheated vegetable and nut fat. One last thing.  I didn’t see any of the numbers on this one but it comes from a good source (Phil Maffetone, worked with Mark Allen on his workouts) Do at least a 15 min warm up to your target heart rate.  Doing this will supposedly help gear your body towards burning a higher rate of fat.  Also don’t eat any carbs within 45min of your workout as this might gear your body towards burning sugar. (During a workout is fine ’cause the body’s insulin production is minimized.)

            During exercise, insulin production is the same as rest or lower (individuals vary).  Not sure where I read this since I read quite a few articles a year in the exercise science literature.  A PubMed search would give you ample citations.         However, I disagree with a lot of what Maffetone says in terms of diet and training. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve not come across that last paragraph of info anywhere else, but the source is good and it doesn’t hurt any.  Any feedback on this info is greatly appreciated.  I just like to see sources if possible. Troy Have you trained this way and did it work for you?  How long did you have to ‘hold back’ at the lower HR before you picked up speed at the same HR?  Did you notice more body fat loss as a result of training this way? This is true. I find Sally’s methods a little to simplistic for the obsessive tri folk. But she’s right on the money here. Yes, the faster you go, the more calories you burn…But go ahead and set your high at 155bpm, go as slow as you need to keep that your max. You will burn less calories. You will even burn less fat calories. Although a higher percentage of them will be fat. Here’s the kicker…You will start to go faster at that slower heart rate. Eventually you will be going at your usual pace with a lower heart rate, now burning as many calories as you were before, but with a higher percentage of fat calories. Don’t forget, cutting fat out of your diet won’t help. I pour vegetable fat on everything (never heated) Troy Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete magazine? She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training at too high of a heart rate" Is there any truth to this? Is there a definitive way to determine your max HR? I am 25 and feel great at 160-170 bpm. At 175 I start to "feel the burn", and at 185 I feel like I need to slow down or take a break. I could probably push my HR up to 195 or so before really ‘maxing’ out. Would that be my max HR then? (This fits the 220-25 formula, but 160-170bpm would be 82-87% of my max. But I feel GREAT at 160-170. And I AM trying to lose that last 5 pounds of body fat to be leaner for racing. Any thoughts? I’d have to walk to keep my HR below 160. Before you buy. Before you buy.

Response:

PS  I do speed work as well, but I didn’t do any for the first 6 months I started training this way. I also do "downhills" to increase my leg turnover rate without raising my HR too much. I think it’s been well proven speedwork plays  a key role in going faster. Troy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you trained this way and did it work for you?  How long did you have to ‘hold back’ at the lower HR before you picked up speed at the same HR?  Did you notice more body fat loss as a result of training this way? This is true. I find Sally’s methods a little to simplistic for the obsessive tri folk. But she’s right on the money here. Yes, the faster you go, the more calories you burn…But go ahead and set your high at 155bpm, go as slow as you need to keep that your max. You will burn less calories. You will even burn less fat calories. Although a higher percentage of them will be fat. Here’s the kicker…You will start to go faster at that slower heart rate. Eventually you will be going at your usual pace with a lower heart rate, now burning as many calories as you were before, but with a higher percentage of fat calories. Don’t forget, cutting fat out of your diet won’t help. I pour vegetable fat on everything (never heated) Troy Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete magazine? She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training at too high of a heart rate" Is there any truth to this? Is there a definitive way to determine your max HR? I am 25 and feel great at 160-170 bpm. At 175 I start to "feel the burn", and at 185 I feel like I need to slow down or take a break. I could probably push my HR up to 195 or so before really ‘maxing’ out. Would that be my max HR then? (This fits the 220-25 formula, but 160-170bpm would be 82-87% of my max. But I feel GREAT at 160-170. And I AM trying to lose that last 5 pounds of body fat to be leaner for racing. Any thoughts? I’d have to walk to keep my HR below 160. Before you buy. Before you buy.

Response:

First off; I’m a 28 year old male 5′7" 130lbs, year round athletic background since age 5 (Yes, I think the long term athletic background makes a difference on how easy one gets fit, so I may have an advantage some do not.). I did not have to "hold back" for too long, I saw improvements right away. It took me about 3 months to work up to a decent speed and about 7 months to work up to where I was.  I am now going a little faster but with an easier effort. I was at 12% bf but am now bouncing between about 8% and 9% (using a tanita scale) I also was not getting much fat in my diet, but now get about 1200 to 1400 calories from fat every day.  All unheated vegetable and nut fat. One last thing.  I didn’t see any of the numbers on this one but it comes from a good source (Phil Maffetone, worked with Mark Allen on his workouts) Do at least a 15 min warm up to your target heart rate.  Doing this will supposedly help gear your body towards burning a higher rate of fat.  Also don’t eat any carbs within 45min of your workout as this might gear your body towards burning sugar. (During a workout is fine ’cause the body’s insulin production is minimized.) I’ve not come across that last paragraph of info anywhere else, but the source is good and it doesn’t hurt any.  Any feedback on this info is greatly appreciated.  I just like to see sources if possible. Troy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you trained this way and did it work for you?  How long did you have to ‘hold back’ at the lower HR before you picked up speed at the same HR?  Did you notice more body fat loss as a result of training this way? This is true. I find Sally’s methods a little to simplistic for the obsessive tri folk. But she’s right on the money here. Yes, the faster you go, the more calories you burn…But go ahead and set your high at 155bpm, go as slow as you need to keep that your max. You will burn less calories. You will even burn less fat calories. Although a higher percentage of them will be fat. Here’s the kicker…You will start to go faster at that slower heart rate. Eventually you will be going at your usual pace with a lower heart rate, now burning as many calories as you were before, but with a higher percentage of fat calories. Don’t forget, cutting fat out of your diet won’t help. I pour vegetable fat on everything (never heated) Troy Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete magazine? She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training at too high of a heart rate" Is there any truth to this? Is there a definitive way to determine your max HR? I am 25 and feel great at 160-170 bpm. At 175 I start to "feel the burn", and at 185 I feel like I need to slow down or take a break. I could probably push my HR up to 195 or so before really ‘maxing’ out. Would that be my max HR then? (This fits the 220-25 formula, but 160-170bpm would be 82-87% of my max. But I feel GREAT at 160-170. And I AM trying to lose that last 5 pounds of body fat to be leaner for racing. Any thoughts? I’d have to walk to keep my HR below 160. Before you buy. Before you buy.

Response:

Thanks! I suppose that Sally Edwards is promoting purely LSD type workouts? I’m doing a good weekly mix of intensities and am happy with the performance results, now all I need to do is stop eating crap. Phil

| The metabolic adaptations to training are a function of both the | intensity and duration of the exercise bout…training very short and | very hard (i.e., nothing but a steady diet of 60 second intervals, ala | Emil Zapotek or Jim Ryun) will enhance the capacity of your muscles to | use fat as a fuel, but perhaps not as much as training for a somewhat | longer period of time at a somewhat lower intensity. OTOH, doing nothing | but LSD-type training may not adequately recruit and thus train your | type II (fast-twitch) motor units, which have the lowest capacity for | oxidative metabolism to start with, and may not be as effective at | increasing VO2max. The ideal mix is more a matter of opinion than | scientific fact, but I think almost all coaches and sports scientists | would agree that the best approach is somewhere between these two | extremes. | | There are, of course, numerous reasons for doing prolonged | (i.e., 2-6 hour) training sessions, with the increase in muscle | oxidative capacity being just one of myriad adaptations that are | induced. Naturally, when you are exercising for that long the intensity | must not be too high, but nonetheless can, (probably) should, and | (often) is higher than what many lay authors advocating ‘zone based | training’ typically advocate. | | To put it in much more concrete terms: a power of ~350 W elicits my | VO2max (and a HR in the low 170’s), and I can TT for almost an hour at | ~300 W (HR in the mid-160’s). For a 5-6 hour endurance workout, I will | average ~200 W (with an average HR of around 125-130). I do not, | however, conciously limit the intensity during such a long ride, and | indeed the effort may be quite high (above TT power) at times when, | e.g., climbing. | | | Andrew Coggan | | So my coach is wrong to have me train at low intensities to improve | the fat | burning capabilities of my body? | | I do LSD for endurance and fat metab and intervals & hills for speed | and | strength. | | Is the difference in that I don’t care too much about the training | effects | on body composition more on "performance"? Or what ever technical term | I | should use there. | | Phil | | | | Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of | Triathlete | | magazine? She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 | pounds of | | body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are | training | | at too high of a heart rate" | | | | Is there any truth to this? | | | | Not really. I could go into great detail about the physiological | | mechanisms, but the bottom line is this: research studies have shown | | that the greatest changes in body composition occur as a result of | more | | intense, not less intense, training programs. But, I strongly | encourage | | you not to take my word for it (or that of Sally Edwards, or anyone | else | | on this n.g. – except perhaps Sam <grin)…a PubMed search will | turn up | | plenty of research on the topic. | | | | Andrew Coggan | | | — | Andrew Coggan | | | Before you buy.

Response:

Thanks! I suppose that Sally Edwards is promoting purely LSD type workouts?

My *impression* is that she is promoting workouts of even lower intensity than that. However, I haven’t read the article that was mentioned at the onset of this thread, and so I may be accusing her of something she didn’t do. Certainly, though, the typical proponent of ‘go at a slower pace to teach your body to use fat’ type of training advocates exercising at an intensity less than most people naturally adopt for their LSD sessions. And while I’m on my high horse: the observation that endurance training reduces heart rate and increases fat oxidation at a given submaximal intensity (or allows one to exercise at a higher absolute intensity for a given heart rate/given rate of fat oxidation) is not new…in fact, it dates back over 100 years! So don’t anybody get suckered into believing that this is a new way/goal of training…. Andrew Coggan Before you buy.

Response:

This is true. I find Sally’s methods a little to simplistic for the obsessive tri folk. But she’s right on the money here. Yes, the faster you go, the more calories you burn…But go ahead and set your high at 155bpm, go as slow as you need to keep that your max. You will burn less calories. You will even burn less fat calories.  Although a higher percentage of them will be fat. Here’s the kicker…You will start to go faster at that slower heart rate. Eventually you will be going at your usual pace with a lower heart rate, now burning as many calories as you were before, but with a higher percentage of fat calories. Don’t forget, cutting fat out of your diet won’t help.  I pour vegetable fat on everything (never heated) Troy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete magazine?  She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training at too high of a heart rate" Is there any truth to this?  Is there a definitive way to determine your max HR?  I am 25 and feel great at 160-170 bpm.  At 175 I start to "feel the burn", and at 185 I feel like I need to slow down or take a break.  I could probably push my HR up to 195 or so before really ‘maxing’ out.  Would that be my max HR then?  (This fits the 220-25 formula, but 160-170bpm would be 82-87% of my max.  But I feel GREAT at 160-170. And I AM trying to lose that last 5 pounds of body fat to be leaner for racing.  Any thoughts?  I’d have to walk to keep my HR below 160. Before you buy.

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I agree with the "other Edwards" in this case.  Also keep in mind that in training, those long slow days are also necessary. There also can be a point where a long run will expend more total energy than a shorter, higher intensity run. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is true. I find Sally’s methods a little to simplistic for the obsessive tri folk. But she’s right on the money here. Yes, the faster you go, the more calories you burn…But go ahead and set your high at 155bpm, go as slow as you need to keep that your max. You will burn less calories. You will even burn less fat calories. Although a higher percentage of them will be fat. Here’s the kicker…You will start to go faster at that slower heart rate. Eventually you will be going at your usual pace with a lower heart rate, now burning as many calories as you were before, but with a higher percentage of fat calories. Don’t forget, cutting fat out of your diet won’t help.  I pour vegetable fat on everything (never heated) Troy Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete magazine?  She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training at too high of a heart rate" Is there any truth to this?  Is there a definitive way to determine your max HR?  I am 25 and feel great at 160-170 bpm.  At 175 I start to "feel the burn", and at 185 I feel like I need to slow down or take a break.  I could probably push my HR up to 195 or so before really ‘maxing’ out.  Would that be my max HR then?  (This fits the 220-25 formula, but 160-170bpm would be 82-87% of my max.  But I feel GREAT at 160-170. And I AM trying to lose that last 5 pounds of body fat to be leaner for racing.  Any thoughts?  I’d have to walk to keep my HR below 160. Before you buy.

Response:

Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete magazine?  She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training at too high of a heart rate" Is there any truth to this?  Is there a definitive way to determine your max HR?  I am 25 and feel great at 160-170 bpm.  At 175 I start to "feel the burn", and at 185 I feel like I need to slow down or take a break.  I could probably push my HR up to 195 or so before really ‘maxing’ out.  Would that be my max HR then?  (This fits the 220-25 formula, but 160-170bpm would be 82-87% of my max.  But I feel GREAT at 160-170. And I AM trying to lose that last 5 pounds of body fat to be leaner for racing.  Any thoughts?  I’d have to walk to keep my HR below 160. Before you buy.

Response:

She’s "probably" right. My coach has me doing off season LSD at 130-140 sometimes lower, on the run. I’m 38 and my MHR for the run is around 180 although I test every 6 weeks and it averages about 175 on those tests. I saw 181 once during a race. Training more slowly allows the body to develop it’s use of fat stores. Phil

| Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete | magazine?  She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of | body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training | at too high of a heart rate" | | Is there any truth to this?  Is there a definitive way to determine | your max HR?  I am 25 and feel great at 160-170 bpm.  At 175 I start to | "feel the burn", and at 185 I feel like I need to slow down or take a | break.  I could probably push my HR up to 195 or so before really | ‘maxing’ out.  Would that be my max HR then?  (This fits the 220-25 | formula, but 160-170bpm would be 82-87% of my max.  But I feel GREAT at | 160-170. | | And I AM trying to lose that last 5 pounds of body fat to be leaner for | racing.  Any thoughts?  I’d have to walk to keep my HR below 160. | | | Before you buy.

Response:

I believe this is controvesial and by no means agreed upon.  For me, it doesn’t work this way.  I tend to train at an easy pace, relatively speaking, but when I gear up for a competition, which I do every year at this time to get ready for my one event of the year, the 5k road race held at the end of May, the addition of track work ups my entire metabolism and I lose weight. The slower you go, the less calories you burn.  I don’t see how this helps you lose weight.  I do see the function of a longer-than-two-hours exercise session at least every week or two to get into fat-burning. Steve "doesn’t use heart-rate monitors or bike computers" Freides – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete magazine?  She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training at too high of a heart rate" Is there any truth to this?  Is there a definitive way to determine your max HR?  I am 25 and feel great at 160-170 bpm.  At 175 I start to "feel the burn", and at 185 I feel like I need to slow down or take a break.  I could probably push my HR up to 195 or so before really ‘maxing’ out.  Would that be my max HR then?  (This fits the 220-25 formula, but 160-170bpm would be 82-87% of my max.  But I feel GREAT at 160-170. And I AM trying to lose that last 5 pounds of body fat to be leaner for racing.  Any thoughts?  I’d have to walk to keep my HR below 160. Before you buy.

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The metabolic adaptations to training are a function of both the intensity and duration of the exercise bout…training very short and very hard (i.e., nothing but a steady diet of 60 second intervals, ala Emil Zapotek or Jim Ryun) will enhance the capacity of your muscles to use fat as a fuel, but perhaps not as much as training for a somewhat longer period of time at a somewhat lower intensity. OTOH, doing nothing but LSD-type training may not adequately recruit and thus train your type II (fast-twitch) motor units, which have the lowest capacity for oxidative metabolism to start with, and may not be as effective at increasing VO2max. The ideal mix is more a matter of opinion than scientific fact, but I think almost all coaches and sports scientists would agree that the best approach is somewhere between these two extremes. There are, of course, numerous reasons for doing prolonged (i.e., 2-6 hour) training sessions, with the increase in muscle oxidative capacity being just one of myriad adaptations that are induced. Naturally, when you are exercising for that long the intensity must not be too high, but nonetheless can, (probably) should, and (often) is higher than what many lay authors advocating ‘zone based training’ typically advocate. To put it in much more concrete terms: a power of ~350 W elicits my VO2max (and a HR in the low 170’s), and I can TT for almost an hour at ~300 W (HR in the mid-160’s). For a 5-6 hour endurance workout, I will average ~200 W (with an average HR of around 125-130). I do not, however, conciously limit the intensity during such a long ride, and indeed the effort may be quite high (above TT power) at times when, e.g., climbing. Andrew Coggan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So my coach is wrong to have me train at low intensities to improve the fat burning capabilities of my body? I do LSD for endurance and fat metab and intervals & hills for speed and strength. Is the difference in that I don’t care too much about the training effects on body composition more on "performance"? Or what ever technical term I should use there. Phil | | Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete | magazine? She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of | body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training | at too high of a heart rate" | | Is there any truth to this? | | Not really. I could go into great detail about the physiological | mechanisms, but the bottom line is this: research studies have shown | that the greatest changes in body composition occur as a result of more | intense, not less intense, training programs. But, I strongly encourage | you not to take my word for it (or that of Sally Edwards, or anyone else | on this n.g. – except perhaps Sam <grin)…a PubMed search will turn up | plenty of research on the topic. | | Andrew Coggan

– Andrew Coggan Before you buy.

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So my coach is wrong to have me train at low intensities to improve the fat burning capabilities of my body? I do LSD for endurance and fat metab and intervals & hills for speed and strength. Is the difference in that I don’t care too much about the training effects on body composition more on "performance"? Or what ever technical term I should use there. Phil

| | Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete | magazine?  She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of | body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training | at too high of a heart rate" | | Is there any truth to this? | | Not really. I could go into great detail about the physiological | mechanisms, but the bottom line is this: research studies have shown | that the greatest changes in body composition occur as a result of more | intense, not less intense, training programs. But, I strongly encourage | you not to take my word for it (or that of Sally Edwards, or anyone else | on this n.g. – except perhaps Sam <grin)…a PubMed search will turn up | plenty of research on the topic. | | Andrew Coggan

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Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete magazine?  She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training at too high of a heart rate" Is there any truth to this?

Not really. I could go into great detail about the physiological mechanisms, but the bottom line is this: research studies have shown that the greatest changes in body composition occur as a result of more intense, not less intense, training programs. But, I strongly encourage you not to take my word for it (or that of Sally Edwards, or anyone else on this n.g. – except perhaps Sam <grin)…a PubMed search will turn up plenty of research on the topic. Andrew Coggan

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Yet another thing I disagree with Sally on…… I will address later (no time now) but you could do a deja news search of this group or rec.running and find a lot of posts bnby myself and Andrew Coggan on the issue (there are others but I forget exactly who). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did anybody read Sally Edward’s article in the last issue of Triathlete magazine?  She wrote, "If you’re trying to lose that last 5-10 pounds of body fat and are having difficulty, you may find that you are training at too high of a heart rate" Is there any truth to this?  Is there a definitive way to determine your max HR?  I am 25 and feel great at 160-170 bpm.  At 175 I start to "feel the burn", and at 185 I feel like I need to slow down or take a break.  I could probably push my HR up to 195 or so before really ‘maxing’ out.  Would that be my max HR then?  (This fits the 220-25 formula, but 160-170bpm would be 82-87% of my max.  But I feel GREAT at 160-170. And I AM trying to lose that last 5 pounds of body fat to be leaner for racing.  Any thoughts?  I’d have to walk to keep my HR below 160. Before you buy.

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Question:

I’m training for to do an Ironman event in the summer of 1999 and have been following a plan created using the book SERIOUS training for endurance athletes. I hope some one can suggest under what category to put the one game of football I play each week as I can’t decide whether it’s Intervals or Endurance ?? Or should I not bother to log this as valid training, although I play for about an hour, running probably 70% of the time ?? Also does any know whether the company that makes Profile tribars has a web site ? And finally if anyone downloaded the defeat poster posted on the site about a month ago can they send it to me.                                                                 Thanks, Paul.

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Paul, Two things up front about football as training. Is this football (US) or soccer? Doesn’t matter. You have to find enough people to play on that once a week basis you state. You can get hurt playing football. Not necessarily badly, but certainly enough so that you can’t train effectively running, biking, swimmimg. I myself would not consider playing football as training for triathlons or for any endurance sport. Ken

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Ken, I’ talking about soccer and the risk of injury may stop me playing when it gets closer to the Ironman event.                                                     Paul.

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Interesting… I’d say soccer qualifies about like some fartleks, but it’s pretty much junk mileage. The CV benefit is appreciable, but I honestly doubt it’ll help you with triathlon. Then, keep in mind that you don’t have to give up your life to train for Tri.  If you enjoy soccer, keep doing it.  Just get on a bicycle and knock out a 60K, and swim 2K before the day is done! Good Luck.

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Question:

Thanks for the advice.  Kenneth, it was especially informative to hear your inside perspective.  I will speak up in the future if the markers are not there. Being new at this, I wasn’t sure if I was expecting something out of the ordinary or not.  I will also try to take the suggestion of speaking with other runners who may know the course, although at my last (first) race I was too nervous and intimidated by the newness of the whole thing to talk to anyone.  I’m sure as I get a little more experience and confidence in my ability to handle different types of courses successfully, things will get easier. Hopefully, I’ll also get to know some other runners in my area. I know I learn a lot from following this group.  Thanks again.  Lori

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If a race organizer does not bother to mark the course at K or mile intervals he does not deserve your entry fee. Find another race. Ken

That’s a bit harsh! If you followed that advice, you would enter no multi-terrain, cross country or fell races in the UK. I don’t think mile markers are so important when you have developed a sense of pace and effort. My best 2 10k times were obtained without a watch. My next attempt at a HMar. PB will probably be without a watch also. Steve. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

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I am new to running and racing.  I did my first 5k two weeks ago and have signed up for my next one (in two weeks) and also a 10k (in four weeks).  I have some questions about races and courses.  In the 5k I ran, there were no mile markers.  Is that common, or are the courses usually marked?  Also, I hate surprises, so I drove the route ahead of time to see what to expect, where the hills were, etc.  The map of the course was provided with the form.  In my next race, the map was not provided and the course info on the form just says "challenging."  My question is how does one keep track of pace while racing if there are no markers and no opportunity to preview the course?  I hope to improve my time, but I hate to go hard and find out too late that the "challenging"" part is a steep half mile hill before the finish or something like that.  Can someone with more experience give me some guidance.  Thanks.          Lori << Hi Lori, IMO, you were very smart to drive the course beforehand. Unfortunately, especially in cross-country races, that strategy may not be available. The next best thing is to arrive early and warm-up over the course before you race it. As far as mile markers go, the races I’ve done usually have them for 5Ks, mostly for 10Ks and then get them at major milestones in longer runs (mile, 5K, 10K, 13 miles and so on). To get an idea of where you are on these courses you might want to rely on the fact that runners can gauge their pace better than their distance. If you’ve got a watch, "program" it to beep when you’d expect a mile marker to be. Then, when/if they do have markers, you can gauge your pace accordingly. Another thing you can do is run with someone that you’d like to beat or that has an equal chance of beating you. If the two of you push yourselves, you’ll do very well and "the time will take care of itself." Good luck! Steve Brown

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…In the 5k I ran, there were no mile markers.  Is that common, or are the courses usually marked?  Also, I hate surprises, so I drove the route ahead of time to see what to expect, where the hills were, etc.  The map of the course was provided with the form.  In my next race, the map was not provided and the course info on the form just says "challenging."  My question is how does one keep track of pace while racing if there are no markers and no opportunity to preview the course?

Lori, By all means, find the Race Director and let him/her know that mile markers were not positioned on the course and, as a runner, you found that disappointing. Often, the person responsible for the race is not a runner. He/she often contracts a race management service to perform race results and a course certification service to lay out the course, but makes no arrangements for mile markers. When races are done in this manner, the obvious things are taken care of: aid stations, course monitors, police traffic control, etc. However, very simple things like mile-markers often get overlooked (their positions are specified on the maps created during course certification and there is a distinct mark placed against the curb at each mile-split, but no arrangements are made to place large mile-marker signs at these positions for the race.) Being a producer of mile-marker clocks, I’m often asked to provide clocks at the mile-marker positions of a race. Runners appreciate seeing their mile split-times on large digital clocks (especially if they can’t read their watch because they don’t wear glasses or contacts during races). You’d be surprised how many race organizers arrange to have clocks positioned, but don’t think of the traditional "Mile 1", Mile 2", etc. signs. As a result, when asked to provide clocks, I often ask the race organizer if they have arranged to have mile-marker numbers positioned at the splits. In many cases, the service they have contracted for race results will provide the markers at little or no additional cost, if asked. Like you, I’m surprised that an obvious course benefit that’s appreciated by all runners is often overlooked. Because you enjoy driving the course prior to the race and do not always find a map on the form or in your packet, you could call the Race Director and request the course certification map be faxed to you. That map will have the mile positions and you can use it to find the "marks on the curb" during your pre-race drive. Hope I’ve been of some help. Just make sure you notify the Race Director after a race with no mile-marker signs. If we’re going to eliminate this problem, we’ve got to educate quite a few people. cheers, Ken __ KenTech Digital Racing Clocks and Timers      http://www.pobox.com/~kentech

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to running and racing.  I did my first 5k two weeks ago and have signed up for my next one (in two weeks) and also a 10k (in four weeks).  I have some questions about races and courses.  In the 5k I ran, there were no mile markers.  Is that common, or are the courses usually marked?  Also, I hate surprises, so I drove the route ahead of time to see what to expect, where the hills were, etc.  The map of the course was provided with the form.  In my next race, the map was not provided and the course info on the form just says "challenging."  My question is how does one keep track of pace while racing if there are no markers and no opportunity to preview the course?  I hope to improve my time, but I hate to go hard and find out too late that the "challenging"" part is a steep half mile hill before the finish or something like that.  Can someone with more experience give me some guidance.  Thanks.          Lori

I’ve never run a 5K, but I’ve run lots of 10K’s and have never seen one without mile markers. If you can’t familiarize yourself w/the course ahead of time, arrive early at the race site and ask other runners who have run it before (assuming it’s been run before) about the course. Needless to say, if the application described the course as "challenging," you can expect hills.

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I am new to running and racing.  I did my first 5k two weeks ago and have signed up for my next one (in two weeks) and also a 10k (in four weeks).  I have some questions about races and courses.  In the 5k I ran, there were no mile markers.  Is that common, or are the courses usually marked?  Also, I hate surprises, so I drove the route ahead of time to see what to expect, where the hills were, etc.  The map of the course was provided with the form.  In my next race, the map was not provided and the course info on the form just says "challenging."  My question is how does one keep track of pace while racing if there are no markers and no opportunity to preview the course?  I hope to improve my time, but I hate to go hard and find out too late that the "challenging"" part is a steep half mile hill before the finish or something like that.  Can someone with more experience give me some guidance.  Thanks.          Lori

If a race organizer does not bother to mark the course at K or mile intervals he does not deserve your entry fee. Find another race. If you cannot preview the course personally try and find someone who has run it before either a fellow runner you know or through this newsgroup and get their assessment of the course. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

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I am new to running and racing.  I did my first 5k two weeks ago and have signed up for my next one (in two weeks) and also a 10k (in four weeks).  I have some questions about races and courses.  In the 5k I ran, there were no mile markers.  Is that common, or are the courses usually marked?  Also, I hate surprises, so I drove the route ahead of time to see what to expect, where the hills were, etc.  The map of the course was provided with the form.  In my next race, the map was not provided and the course info on the form just says "challenging."  My question is how does one keep track of pace while racing if there are no markers and no opportunity to preview the course?  I hope to improve my time, but I hate to go hard and find out too late that the "challenging"" part is a steep half mile hill before the finish or something like that.  Can someone with more experience give me some guidance.  Thanks.          Lori

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Question:

One of those great end-of-May days: 5:00AM- Got up and finished report card grades for the 8th graders 6:30-8:00- 23 mile bike on a sunny, crisp and pretty calm AM 8:30-9:30- Our school does a road clean-up.  We did our section in this hour. 9:45-10:15- Easy 3 plus mile run on trail 10:30-11:15- First outdoor pool swim of the summer: FREEZING but fun. Going to do triathlon #100 in Pardeeville, WI next Saturday AM. A great little race. #101 in Springfield the following Sunday. Ah…….I love this game! Mark  

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LOL Mark From Adinda. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -One of those great end-of-May days: 5:00AM- Got up and finished report card grades for the 8th graders 6:30-8:00- 23 mile bike on a sunny, crisp and pretty calm AM 8:30-9:30- Our school does a road clean-up.  We did our section in this hour. 9:45-10:15- Easy 3 plus mile run on trail 10:30-11:15- First outdoor pool swim of the summer: FREEZING but fun. Going to do triathlon #100 in Pardeeville, WI next Saturday AM. A great little race. #101 in Springfield the following Sunday. Ah…….I love this game! Mark  

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Question:

I’ve came up with a recipe that I’ve been using for "energy food." Please e-mail me and let me know what you think.  I won’t be offended if you don’t like them – I know nothing about baking!

Michael, I’ll try your recipe soon-I don’t like baking, so I am going to modify the egg whites with protein powder and make them similiar to a recipe I like. You can check it out at: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/food.html Look in the carbo load section. They are very good-too tempting for me to have around while not training! If you don’t mind the time for assembly, they are a good value if you go through a lot of bars. Regards, Lee Rudin San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

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I’ve came up with a recipe that I’ve been using for "energy food." It’s basically a peanut butter oatmeal cookie, with some important modifications.  My estimate is that they are approx. 70% carbo, 10%protein, and 20%fat.   I mix together:  1 cup sugar, 1/2 cup peanut butter, 1/3 cup honey, 2 cups oats, 2 cups flour, 1 tsp vanilla, 4 egg whites, 1/4 tsp. salt, 1 1/2 tsp. cinnamon, 1 tsp. baking soda, and 4 tbsp. water (or maybe a bit more if needed to stir it up).  It is very hard to mix; I think mixing it counts as an upper extremity workout.  Mix well; roll into balls (if you’re hands are wet, it doesn’t stick as much).  Flatten them out with a fork (dip the fork in water between each cookie to keep it from sticking).  I’ve been baking them on an insulated cookie sheet (coated liberally with PAM) in a 325 degree oven for 18 min.  It shouldn’t take as long on a regular cookie sheet.  I suppose you could make bars out of them too, but cookies seem easiest to me. Please e-mail me and let me know what you think.  I won’t be offended if you don’t like them – I know nothing about baking! Mike B.

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Question:

 am interested in what brand of energy bar is most commonly used to give one that carb boost one needs in the middle of a long run or triathalon.  I would also be interested in any other bars you’ve tried and why you didn’t like them or chose not to use them.  Thanks. Lindsay Dyce Vancouver, BC

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am interested in what brand of energy bar is most commonly used to give one that carb boost one needs in the middle of a long run or triathalon.  I would also be interested in any other bars you’ve tried and why you didn’t like them or chose not to use them.  Thanks.

For runs of 50 miles and longer, I take along three brands: PowerBar, BTU Stoker, and Clif.  All are available at better grocery stores in my city. The reason for three choices is that its hard to predict just which will seem edible once I’m suffering the stress of running long distances.  For races, I’d rather skip the bars and eat salty boiled potatoes, but in a self-supported training run the bars are more practical to handle. For those who aren’t familiar with Stoker and Clif, Stoker is made like Power, a thick gunk extruded into the wrapper.  Clif is a compromise between gunk versus granola bar texture.  As such, Clif is much less likely to freeze up in cold weather. I also use GU for its small caffeine dosage, and a sport drink for low-cost massive calories. Gordon Chace

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am interested in what brand of energy bar is most commonly used to

give one that carb boost one needs in the middle of a long run or triathalon.  I would also be interested in any other bars you’ve tried and why you didn’t like them or chose not to use them.  Thanks. I prefer Carbo-Crunch bars, they provide  simple carbs for immediate energy(which I normally need by the time I remember to eat), as well as a blend of complex carbs and protein for sustained energy.  Also they don’t get hard in the winter or soft in the heat, which is nice.  Also I find them more palatable then other brands when I’m running.  I also rely(sp) heavily on a fluid replacement drnk, which I believe is actually more important for me then the power bars.

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Question:

My husband did the Carlsbad Tri yesterday and it was a great race – anyone in the southern California area should definitely consider it for next year.  Its a 1K swim – 25Kbike and 5K run. They have a great pre-race dinner, free to participants, $5 for anyone else which was very good, filling (even for my husband who is usually not satisfied with these dinners).  Then they had a luau show which was fun to watch.  Race day was overcast but kind of muggy.  The swim was calm with the water temp probably about 64 but there was quite a current.  I could watch all the swimmers and even the elite wave kept going off course.  The bike course had some rolling hills and was two loops and the run was fairly flat.  Sorry I can’t give any results =

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I did that rece and found that all the distances were longer than advertised!!! Any one else feel that way The swim sure felt longer.  Or maybe it was that cold ocean current we

swam through that made it feel really long!  Due to a flat, I was unable to finish the rest of the course!  Hmmm, I did feel the course was a bit crowded and hectic though!  Later TriGators! Ron ^^^ Ron Williams Embry Riddle Aeronautical University Prescott, Arizona ….always bring a patch kit!

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I did that rece and found that all the distances were longer than advertised!!! Any one else feel that way

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   I did the race and although I enjoyed it very much for the previously mentioned reasons, the distances were definitely longer than advertised. Steve Fredericks

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i too did this race and it was longer, but one of the best races i’ve been to. the crowd at the finish was great. as gene & roger say "2 thumbs up"…

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Question:

Vineman Triathlon. Saturday, July 30, 1994 7AM start. My first Ironman… The course: SWIM: 2.4 miles in the Russian River, just north of Santa Rosa, CA (maybe an hour’s drive north of San Francisco) BIKE: 112 miles through Sonoma county and the Russian River area. Race brouchers will say the course is flat, but it is harder that it looks on paper. Mainly due to many small rollers and some very rough roads. RUN:  26.2 miles on back roads near Windsor. Again, a bunch of small rollers and not much shade. A half ironman distance race is run concurrently and starts at 8:30. Each of the three legs in the full is a double loop along a 1.2/56/13.1 mile course. The swim is about 15 miles from the bike/run finish, and makes it a two transition race. For the first year in it’s 5 year history, both the Vineman and half- Vineman races were Ironman qualifier events. I believe this is the only full-Ironman length IMQ race in the US (Correct me if I’m wrong). Most of the slots went to the full distance race (maybe 20 vs if you plan to try to qualify here in the future. I made the trip up to the race on Thursday afternoon (2 hour drive) and was happy to find the weather mild and breezy. Last year on race day it was over 100 degrees and the med-tent was overflowing. Friday was not so encouraging as the temperature soared to around 90. I drank 2 water bottles just riding 20 miles to check out the run course. I kept thinking that in the past month I was wishing time would go a little faster, and now all I wanted was a few more days to think about it! I managed to sleep for most of the night and was getting nervous thinking that I should be a little more nervous. Race morning made me even more jittery when I got up at 4:30 and only needed to wear sweat pants and a light jacket. I got to the river and the sky was clear and the sun just coming up over the trees. The lake was very calm and looked to serene to agitate with a thousand or so swimmers. After setting my bike stuff up I donned my wetsuit and got in the water for a quick warm-up (how much do you need for an Ironman, anyway . The first wave went off at 7:05 and I had 5 more min to think about the coming day. Sooner than I wanted, we were off. The water was a good temperature (70) and I just tried to relax and stay smooth. It seemed like I was swimming very easily, but I still managed to pull away from my wave. By the first turnaround (of 3 due to the double-loop) I had caught almost half of the first wave, and was still going easy. I think that someone had not quite set up the swim course right because there was about a 300 yard stretch were I could swear I never saw a bouy. I tend to drift left when I swim and suddenly I saw a bouy about 20 yards to my right (on a counter clockwise loop) oh well. Swim back to bouy. I did this all four times in the middle of the course. Apparently many others did too, because on the first return trip, I bumped into another swimmer going the opposite direction. I picked my head up and saw I was only about 5 yards inside my bouy, so he probably drifted more than I did (or so I rationalize). Anyway, no harm, no foul. The rest of the swim finished without event, and I cruised into the finish area. To my surprise I looked at my watch and it said 45:40. Wow. Maybe the course was a little short (and maybe my 3 week taper helped more than I thought . I was 4th overall out of the water, from the second wave. I jogged to my spot (no need to hurry, I have all day) and put on my bike jersey (I wore my bike shorts under the wetsuit) and off I went. Leaving the transition area I could only hope that they get my new swim course record correct… On the bike I noticed that a foggy mist had rolled in near the river, and it was much cooler, but not too cold. Maybe it won’t be so bad after all. I tried to go easy and build the first 10 miles or so and got rolling pretty well. I saw the overall leader Brad Rex after mile 20, where the course makes a slight detour loop to correct the mileage. He was about 4-5 min ahead of me, so techincally I was first on the road counting the wave start. Trying to not let this go to my head, I just kept relaxing and peddling on. On the back half of the course there was a slight headwind which was more mentally draining than really difficult. The weather was still cool enough that I had not unzipped my jersey at all. Good news I suppose. Right after the only semi-real hill (maybe a 200-300 foot climb) the road got very rough and one of my spare tubulars almost fell of my bike. I spent the next 15 or so miles trying to find a suitable fix for it. Finally it behaved and stayed in place. I was thinking how the bike did not seem as long as I expected when I saw a rider ahead of me looking back and waving me up to him. Not knowing what he was doing, I kept going until I caught him and asked him if there was a problem. No, he said, he just wanted someone to talk to. So I rode with him for a while and we chatted until I tired too much and he went ahead. This is definitely something that has never happened to me in any of the shorter races I have done, and it was kind of nice. By the second time over the hill I was in 2nd in my wave (passed at mile 85) and struggling up the hill. It was nice to be passing some of the slowest half-Vineman competitors on their only lap. On the way down the hill, the bumpy road was really starting to give me a headache, and all I wanted was to get off the bike. Finally, I finished, cruising the last 2 miles as recovery. I was about 11th off the bike in 5:18 (not including transitions) for 21.1 mph. I did a quick deck change into my running apparell, a little stretching, grabbed my sunscreen, and I was off. Well, I was off walking and putting on sunscreen that is. A couple minutes walk and a pep-talk by my coach and I started my run (looking more and more like a jog). I tried just to build into the run, since my longest run to date had been about 16 miles. I started off at an easy 8:30 mile (easy so I thought) this pace quickly became 8:45 and 9:00 for miles 2 and 3. I settled in around a 9:25 or so pace and managed to run the entire first half in 2:00 exactly. The weather at this time was quite hot (although probably only aroun 80-85) but for some reason I just did not let it bother me. After the halfway point (very cruel: the turnaround was within sight of the finish due to the double loop) I began to walk through all the aid stations. 20 yard walks became 50 yard walks and running a mile each time became running 3/4 a mile then half a mile. A nice breeze had begun to blow, taking away some of the heat with it. After mile 20 (near the third and last turnaround) I knew I was home free. My legs, however still needed some convincing. I managed to make it to the 24.5 mile aid station, and from somewhere got a 2nd wind (or 3rd or 100th…). I ran the last mile in 7:10 and felt great coming across the finish line in 10:39:50 and 4:30:53 on the run (ok maybe not great, but you get the idea). I was 13th in my age group (25-29) and about 42 overall. An interesting thing occured to me toward the end of the race. As I jogged along looking at my watch and seeing one goal after another fade away (4:00 run, 10:00 total, 10:30 total, etc…) I still managed to keep a positive outlook on the entire thing. This has never really happened before, but all the people passing me and my slower and slower pace never really bothered me. I guess that the immensity of the whole thing dawned on some part of me and that helped. I was never one to be happy just with finishing a race. I was (and probably still am for the most part) a bit too cocky and always thought I could race and go fast, and compete with the best, etc… This, however, is finally a race that I am proud to say I just finished. I have a new respect for all the "special interest" people they always profile in the Hawaii broadcast. Sorry I only know spotty overall results, but here’s an attempt: male                            female (approx) 1. Brad Rex         9:04        - 11:00 2. John Weathersby  9:14        - 11:20 3. –                9:20        - 11:38 Anyway, congrats to all the finishers, and good luck to all in IMC and Hawaii! myke morgan

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: Vineman Triathlon. Saturday, July 30, 1994 7AM start. : My first Ironman… Mine too; I had the pleasure of meeting Myke at the finish line.  My story will have to wait for a more auspicious time.  I just got home from the trip to California, it’s 1:30 in the morning and I’m too tired to write coherently.

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Question:

[....] Perhaps no-one told the commentator about drafting.  It was allowed in this race, but when McMartin and Dobson(?) were at the front, the commentator was going on about how they were battling for the lead.  It looked alot like a 2 man PACELINE to me (can u have that with 2 people?)

[....] Actually, I was amazed at what a poor job the two leaders did of drafting on the bike leg.  They left large gaps (often 3 or 4 feet) and frequently were not drafting at all.  That put them at a disadvantage because one of the chase groups ran a fairly creditable paceline.  One of the leaders ended up getting caught by some of the chasers on the run.  A bigger gap from the bike leg could have saved him. I don’t like drafting in a tri, but if you’re going to do it, do it well. Despite my above comments, I’m glad that triathlon is getting coverage. It’s better than the 5 lines given to the TdF on Sportsdesk every night

I agree. Dave LaPorte U. of Minn.

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I was on this morning and saw two postings of the ITU World Cup results from Whistler and now they are gone. Can people pull things off of this newsgroup at will? Or off into cyberspace? Just wondering?

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I was on this morning and saw two postings of the ITU World Cup results from Whistler and now they are gone. Can people pull things off of this newsgroup at will? Or off into cyberspace? Just wondering?

Well, I just watched this on TV and wasn’t all that impressed.  The commentators insisted on talking in miles (1mi,25mi,6mi) – close, but no cigar. Perhaps no-one told the commentator about drafting.  It was allowed in this race, but when McMartin and Dobson(?) were at the front, the commentator was going on about how they were battling for the lead.  It looked alot like a 2 man PACELINE to me (can u have that with 2 people?) The Australian co-star was OK, but only spoke when spoken to.  One thing that bothered me was when he said, in comparison to IM, that this was really just a sprint.  I’m not sure this is a great thing to promote the sport to newbies like myself.  The winners were out there for just under 2 hours – 15 minutes quicker than the top runners finish a marathon- but no-one would call that a sprint, even in comparison to an ultra. All I really remember of the results was that Andrew McMartin was 1st and Frank Clarke second (yeah, Canada!)  I think Wes Dobson(?) was 5th. He said he got a little dehydrated on the run. Despite my above comments, I’m glad that triathlon is getting coverage. It’s better than the 5 lines given to the TdF on Sportsdesk every night Sean.

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I was on this morning and saw two postings of the ITU World Cup results from Whistler and now they are gone. Can people pull things off of this newsgroup at will? Or off into cyberspace? Just wondering? Well, I just watched this on TV and wasn’t all that impressed.  The commentators insisted on talking in miles (1mi,25mi,6mi) – close, but no cigar.

Speaking as a semi-retired beer-guzzling, arm-chair quarterback, I wonder if CBS did this for the beer-guzzling, arm-chair quarterback crowd who still isn’t able to comprehend or relate to the metric system. However, I thought the coverage was better than average– especially better than the stuff ESPN did last year. Perhaps no-one told the commentator about drafting.  It was allowed in this race, but when McMartin and Dobson(?) were at the front, the commentator was going on about how they were battling for the lead.  It looked alot like a 2 man PACELINE to me (can u have that with 2 people?)

This race was the first drafting legal, ITU race I was able to catch.  It became pretty clear that the pros still are learning the tactics of a draft legal race.   I expected to see a lot of tight, fast-moving (lead changing) pace lines.  I guess this is probably due to aerobars… SZAG: maybe you could bring this up to the ITU…  Make some sort of a brake on the end of the aerobars mandatory for drafting legal races.  This would increase safety and really tighten up the pace lines.   The Australian co-star was OK, but only spoke when spoken to.  

I was pleasantly surprised with Miles commentary and was glad to see it. The winners were out there for just under 2 hours – 15 minutes quicker than the top runners finish a marathon- but no-one would call that a sprint, even in comparison to an ultra.

Your right, but maybe from a pro’s perspective this is sort of a sprint… I was surprised to find myself liking the drafting legal format.  I think it would be fun to try.  However, we need to keep both formats around and only have a few, field-size limited, draft-legal races.    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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[....] was going on about how they were battling for the lead.  It looked alot like a 2 man PACELINE to me (can u have that with 2 people?) [....] Actually, I was amazed at what a poor job the two leaders did of drafting on the bike leg.  They left large gaps (often 3 or 4 feet) and frequently were not drafting at all.  

This was also my observation, and I just gave the pros some benefit of the doubt by saying that they just weren’t used to this type of race strategy yet…  My first reaction was that these guys (leaders) just wanted to be out front so they could "beat their chests" so to speak and all mental aspects of drafting and strategy seemed to play a secondary role. That put them at a disadvantage because one of the chase groups ran a fairly creditable paceline.  

Of course, this one wasn’t very organized either…  I remember seeing guys sprinting out from the middle of the paceline at times which disrupts the entire flow…      W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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