Question:

| |This group has always been against marketing of any sort being posted |here. So what?  You write the laws of Usenet? I bet you guys have an FAQ about this too?  Right?  Another worthless waste of time.

Response:

|But _hidden_ agendas are rightly subjected to suspicion once they become |exposed. Sure, sure……that’s the nature of Usenet.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | |I guess I don’t feel so bad now for being suspicious all along.  I |find these posting games to be quite insulting given what Mike has |brought to light (thanks Mike): | |http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&th=3b… | |http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.clim… | |You guys (Rod & Greg) really ought to be ashamed of yourselves.  Are |things really that bad in Australia?  If you guys got something sell, |just say so instead of denying it over and over again while playing |this "thanks for the wonderful advice" game between you and Greg |throughout all of the newsgroups.  All you, Rod, had to do was come |clean.  How hard is that?  Back to advice that was recycled to me by |Guido:  http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/rec_climbing.htm#culture | |Michelle | | | |thanks for the heads-up. Chang, you make Asians everywhere feel ill to their stomachs.

please expound. thanks, Henry

Response:

Mike – I subscribe to all of these news groups and others – if you read what Benson said you would see he’s a triathlete, I’ve followed them around and picked them up, why don’t you ask the other people that have contacted me direct with other legitimate questions as to whether or not I’ve answered them adequately? Rather than just immediately going on the attack. I thought that these would be a useful forum to discuss issues, some of which I have a professional interest in, others I have a passion about – all in all a number of people have seen this as being of use, others such as Aarron and Henry have taken it upon themselves to throw unwarranted abuse.

Rod, there was nothing in Benson’s postings that would indicate that he was a triathlete, unless you consider "I do a bit of…." in each respective group to mean someone participates in all of them. That’s quite a bit of speculation that he’s a triathlete.  Regarding any questions to your speciality, I didn’t have any reason to doubt you had the knowledge and experience you had stated. As far as I was concerned, that wasn’t the issue.  I didn’t immediately go on the attack, you were questioned right up front regarding what you were offering and whether your posting was genuine interest, or simply poor marketing.  The postings continued…. I applaud you for wanting to continue giving advice on subjects you are knowledgeable and experienced in, please don’t try and disguise it as thinly veiled spam. We all do what we can – I don’t know Greg Benson, have never laid eyes on him, but when I saw his posting at different locations I took it as an opportunity – excuse me for following the posted issues. Good night. Rod

The canned responses?  Come on, nobody believes it now once they’ve seen the other posts.  In rec.bicycle.racing, after Greg thanked you, you even said "Too easy Greg."  After a while, even you had second thoughts about what you started.  I don’t think it’s necessary to repost what was said. If it’s simply poor marketing, fine, but you’re not deceiving anyone now. I’m actually quite thankful that you are offering your services.  I feel in areas of training and medicine, there are always new discoveries and methods generating advances in both areas.  The more advanced training becomes, hopefully some of the rewards will be less injuries.  Everyone wins.  :-) Finally, I wish you no ill will.  Perhaps one day you’ll make a huge breakthrough in altitude research and athletic training, or even invent a better and lighter Gamow bag (http://spot.colorado.edu/~gamow/research/bag.html) that’s more affordable and you’ll make lots of money.  Who knows?  Keep up with your passions and enjoy life, it’s the only one you have! Regards, Mike

Response:

Rod: You know, this whole helpfulness act would shine more brightly if there weren’t a product attached to the end of the rainbow. And yes, wreck.climbing certainly has its cynics, and those who defend the space with self-righteous indignation.  I doubt you’ve met either group yet. Risking such —  Sparing the purchase of your training machine, what value does your posts bring to this group? Has your studies revealed valuable insights or a regimen which affords the tight-fisted climber a leg-up on high alt’ training?   Or is your kind offer a loss-leader in the marketing plan? Guido

Response:

Mike – I subscribe to all of these news groups and others – if you read what Benson said you would see he’s a triathlete, I’ve followed them around and picked them up, why don’t you ask the other people that have contacted me direct with other legitimate questions as to whether or not I’ve answered them adequately?

So, Rod, who else have you helped?  The only one that any of us have seen is this Greg Benson (aka Rod Cedaro) fellow.  That’s the beauty of your whole e-mail approach.  You don’t have to show to the whole group that you are ignorant.  Why haven’t any of these supposed people come forward on this group in your defense?  Maybe because you did not help them at all! A spammer and a liar…..

Response:

I guess I don’t feel so bad now for being suspicious all along.  I find these posting games to be quite insulting given what Mike has brought to light (thanks Mike): http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&th=3b… http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.clim… You guys (Rod & Greg) really ought to be ashamed of yourselves.  Are things really that bad in Australia?  If you guys got something sell, just say so instead of denying it over and over again while playing this "thanks for the wonderful advice" game between you and Greg throughout all of the newsgroups.  All you, Rod, had to do was come clean.  How hard is that?  Back to advice that was recycled to me by Guido:  http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/rec_climbing.htm#culture Michelle

Response:

So, Rod, who else have you helped?  The only one that any of us have seen is this Greg Benson (aka Rod Cedaro) fellow.  That’s the beauty of your whole e-mail approach.  You don’t have to show to the whole group that you are ignorant.

Were you able to follow his posts on hypoxic training? They sound significantly less ignorant than anything you have posted. … . . .  .  .  .    .    .    .     .     .     .      .      .      .    Tower of Tongues:Thursday PM:10:30-11:30 EDT:http://cfmu.mcmaster.ca     moon musick:ritual:IDM:experimental(electronica):minimalism:glitch .      .      .     .     .     .    .    .    .   .   .   .  .  . . …

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike – I subscribe to all of these news groups and others – if you read what Benson said you would see he’s a triathlete, I’ve followed them around and picked them up, why don’t you ask the other people that have contacted me direct with other legitimate questions as to whether or not I’ve answered them adequately? Rather than just immediately going on the attack. I thought that these would be a useful forum to discuss issues, some of which I have a professional interest in, others I have a passion about – all in all a number of people have seen this as being of use, others such as Aarron and Henry have taken it upon themselves to throw unwarranted abuse. We all do what we can – I don’t know Greg Benson, have never laid eyes on him, but when I saw his posting at different locations I took it as an opportunity – excuse me for following the posted issues. Good night. Rod

Can you explain why Greg felt the need to ask essentially the same question and evoke the same response from you in several newsgroups at the same time? -WG

Response:

Interesting how the only posts to rec.bicycles.racing ever by someone named "Roger Hunter" have been in this thread.

Lordy, are you stupid.   I’m posting from rec.running.  Look at the ‘newsgroup to’ headers, these posts are bouncing round half of Usenet.

Response:

|When there is a vested interest while one is posting in a newsgroup, it |is best that the individual be as transparent as possible as to what |their intentions are. Right on, Oz.  Everyone has an agenda and not all agendas are necesarily evil.

But _hidden_ agendas are rightly subjected to suspicion once they become exposed.

Response:

| |I guess I don’t feel so bad now for being suspicious all along.  I |find these posting games to be quite insulting given what Mike has |brought to light (thanks Mike): | |http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&th=3b… | |http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.clim… | |You guys (Rod & Greg) really ought to be ashamed of yourselves.  Are |things really that bad in Australia?  If you guys got something sell, |just say so instead of denying it over and over again while playing |this "thanks for the wonderful advice" game between you and Greg |throughout all of the newsgroups.  All you, Rod, had to do was come |clean.  How hard is that?  Back to advice that was recycled to me by |Guido:  http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/rec_climbing.htm#culture | |Michelle | | | |thanks for the heads-up. Chang, you make Asians everywhere feel ill to their stomachs.

Response:

thanks for the heads-up. Yeah, and I know EXACTLY what your head is up.

Interesting how the only posts to rec.bicycles.racing ever by someone named "Roger Hunter" have been in this thread. Henry rbr anti-spam crusader

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks for the heads-up. Yeah, and I know EXACTLY what your head is up. Interesting how the only posts to rec.bicycles.racing ever by someone named "Roger Hunter" have been in this thread. Henry rbr anti-spam crusader

Gee, I wonder why???

Response:

And I am sure you saw if you read everything here that I mentioned that the hypoxic training posts were decent.  That is kind of much of my point here — post what you know about and don’t try to be the second coming to RBR just to troll for clients.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, Rod, who else have you helped?  The only one that any of us have seen is this Greg Benson (aka Rod Cedaro) fellow.  That’s the beauty of your whole e-mail approach.  You don’t have to show to the whole group that you are ignorant. Were you able to follow his posts on hypoxic training? They sound significantly less ignorant than anything you have posted. … . . .  .  .  .    .    .    .     .     .     .      .      .      .    Tower of Tongues:Thursday PM:10:30-11:30 EDT:http://cfmu.mcmaster.ca     moon musick:ritual:IDM:experimental(electronica):minimalism:glitch .      .      .     .     .     .    .    .    .   .   .   .  .  . . …

Response:

|A spammer and a liar…..

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I guess I don’t feel so bad now for being suspicious all along.  I find these posting games to be quite insulting given what Mike has brought to light (thanks Mike): http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&th=3b… http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.clim… You guys (Rod & Greg) really ought to be ashamed of yourselves.  Are things really that bad in Australia?  If you guys got something sell, just say so instead of denying it over and over again while playing this "thanks for the wonderful advice" game between you and Greg throughout all of the newsgroups.  All you, Rod, had to do was come clean.  How hard is that?  Back to advice that was recycled to me by Guido:  http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/rec_climbing.htm#culture Michelle

thanks for the heads-up. Henry

Response:

|When there is a vested interest while one is posting in a newsgroup, it |is best that the individual be as transparent as possible as to what |their intentions are. Right on, Oz.  Everyone has an agenda and not all agendas are necesarily evil.

Response:

thanks for the heads-up.

Yeah, and I know EXACTLY what your head is up.

Response:

|When there is a vested interest while one is posting in a newsgroup, it |is best that the individual be as transparent as possible as to what |their intentions are. Right on, Oz.  Everyone has an agenda and not all agendas are necesarily evil.

This group has always been against marketing of any sort being posted here. Henry

Response:

|I’m going to leap to the defence of Roddy-boy here.   Not ’cause I think |he’s a fellow troll, and not ’cause he’s an Aussie (though god knows, the |poor wee kangas need all the help they can get), but just because he seems |like a fine guy. How do you know?  He could be a serial killer. |He gave an honest, tolerant and amusing defence of the Aussie sports system |on rec.running,  He appears to know what he’s talking about – which is more |than most (yes, me too) on rec.running and rec.sport.triathlon – and he does |it all with good grace. When he’s not killing serials. |Were I seeking advice, I’d be hoping to stumble into someone like Roddy. |So what if his business is a little quiet or he’s trying to raise his |profile within certain sports.   If the quality of advice is good then just |accept it and be grateful. Yeah, but that not’s the way it works on most of Usenet.  If you publically state your credentials, then back them with intelligent discussion, the morons, idiots and imbeciles will feel overwhelmed and make every effort to clip your heels.  I kicked the ever loving crap out of the folks on misc.fitness.weights, after stating exactly who I am and what my background was and they reacted like monkeys in a jaguar den.  It was fun, I have to admit, to shoot down a bunch of foul mouthed creeps, bodybuilding egomaniacs and pseudoscientists.

Response:

|Risking such —  Sparing the purchase of your training machine, what value |does your posts bring to this group? Why not give the guy a f…king chance to post for a while and find out?

Response:

<snipped, ’cause it was a reasonable, but not completely satisfactory, response to the beastly Mike Shutters I’m going to leap to the defence of Roddy-boy here.   Not ’cause I think he’s a fellow troll, and not ’cause he’s an Aussie (though god knows, the poor wee kangas need all the help they can get), but just because he seems like a fine guy. He gave an honest, tolerant and amusing defence of the Aussie sports system on rec.running,  He appears to know what he’s talking about – which is more than most (yes, me too) on rec.running and rec.sport.triathlon – and he does it all with good grace. Were I seeking advice, I’d be hoping to stumble into someone like Roddy. So what if his business is a little quiet or he’s trying to raise his profile within certain sports.   If the quality of advice is good then just accept it and be grateful. I don’t think you were wrong to point it out though Mike, it’s just a little sad that you felt you had to go public so quickly.   I’d have emailed him first and told him what I felt.   Then, had it continued, you’d have looked more like someone doing us all a favour and less like a schoolboy that’s discovered his teacher is human.

Response:

Rod, What’s so wrong with your business model that you feel the need to go around to various newsgroups and having (or working with) someone planting questions pertaining to your training and knowledge for you to answer?  In all four of these newsgroups (rec.bicycles.racing, rec.climbing, rec.running & rec.sport.triathlon), Greg Benson posed almost the exact same question in each group (it was tailored to each group) – Simulated high altitude training. You (obviously having already seen the question in the other groups) acted like it was a new question for each group, never pointing out to "Greg" that you already answered his question (with almost the exact same information) in another newsgroup.  Take a look (newsgroup members), you’ll see what I’m talking about. If business is so bad in your industry that you need this to drum up business in this manner, I feel sorry for you, but don’t try to deceive us.  Unfortunately stuff like this doesn’t look good when it comes out, even if it’s only appearances. If it was a mistake, come clean and cut your losses.  Bad business decisions are made all the time, it’s how you own up to them (and clean up) that make the difference. Stick around and dispense free advice.  If it’s good and accurate (and works), I’m sure *some* people will appreciate it and you still get to have that feeling that comes with helping others. Initially, when I saw what was going on, I was pretty ticked off.  But I also understand that successful people also face difficult financial times and do things they wouldn’t normally do.  I was really going to rip you a new one, but I’m tired, and I feel kinda’ sorry for you.  After all, you do appear to be pretty intelligent and after reading some of your other posts in the other newsgroups, not overly hostile.  :-)  Besides, I don’t normally flame people, not my style. Think about it. On the other hand, I could just be so tired that I have no idea what I just wrote.  I’m going to bed. Mike

Response:

Mike – I subscribe to all of these news groups and others – if you read what Benson said you would see he’s a triathlete, I’ve followed them around and picked them up, why don’t you ask the other people that have contacted me direct with other legitimate questions as to whether or not I’ve answered them adequately? Rather than just immediately going on the attack. I thought that these would be a useful forum to discuss issues, some of which I have a professional interest in, others I have a passion about – all in all a number of people have seen this as being of use, others such as Aarron and Henry have taken it upon themselves to throw unwarranted abuse. We all do what we can – I don’t know Greg Benson, have never laid eyes on him, but when I saw his posting at different locations I took it as an opportunity – excuse me for following the posted issues. Good night. Rod Rod, What’s so wrong with your business model that you feel the need to go

around to various newsgroups and having (or working with) someone planting questions pertaining to your

training and knowledge for you to answer?  In all four of these newsgroups (rec.bicycles.racing,

rec.climbing, rec.running & rec.sport.triathlon), Greg Benson posed almost the exact same question in each group (it was tailored to each group) – Simulated high altitude training. You (obviously having already seen the question in the other groups) acted like it was a new question for each group, never pointing out to "Greg" that you already

answered his question (with almost the exact same information) in another newsgroup.  Take a look

(newsgroup members), you’ll see what I’m talking about. If business is so bad in your industry that you need this to drum up

business in this manner, I feel sorry for you, but don’t try to deceive us.  Unfortunately stuff like this

doesn’t look good when it comes out, even if it’s only appearances. If it was a mistake, come clean and cut your losses.  Bad business

decisions are made all the time, it’s how you own up to them (and clean up) that make the difference. Stick around and dispense free advice.  If it’s good and accurate (and

works), I’m sure *some* people will appreciate it and you still get to have that feeling that comes

with helping others. Initially, when I saw what was going on, I was pretty ticked off.  But I

also understand that successful people also face difficult financial times and do things they

wouldn’t normally do.  I was really going to rip you a new one, but I’m tired, and I feel kinda’

sorry for you.  After all, you do appear to be pretty intelligent and after reading some of your other posts in the other newsgroups, not overly hostile.  :-)  Besides, I don’t normally flame

people, not my style. Think about it. On the other hand, I could just be so tired that I have no idea what I just

wrote.  I’m going to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -bed. Mike

Response:

Question:

I don’t buy that crap about height and weight scales.  Its too restrictive and pays no attention to those that seek different areas of fitness.  Plus I’ve seen numerous persons in the Navy that fell within the limits of weight imposed by their height yet were visibly out of shape.  Bodyfat and aerobic endurance are the key areas to tell how fit a person is, with the person’s opinion having over-ruling authority (do you think you look fit?). Nuke

I agree with you.  When I was in shape like three years ago, I was at 150 lbs. The chart still said I should be at about 140 ideally.   Of course the charts also don’t account for muscular people (not that  I was, but I know several people that are). I’ve also seen what you described.  People think they are in shape because of the charts, but they are not fit at all.   Ted http://hometown.aol.com/rhwbullhead/

Response:

you think im 40lbs overweight? wow, most people think im in good shape, i only have a small gut not too noticible, thats why i said 10lbs overweight. your saying i should weigh 130 lbs? I find that hard to believe Never Forgive, Never Forget 9-11-01 I have no idea what you look like, but I noticed that you are 5′6". I’m 5′7" and I know I’m supposed to weigh anywhere from 140-150 lbs. At 5′6", I imagine you’re supposed to weigh 135-45?

Hmm, depends on the frame build.  I’m 5′8" which means I should be around 150-160 max.  Now this would not be a problem if I were at 0% bodyfat.  I reckon my ideal is 175-180 which puts me near 10% bodyfat (which I consider a very healthy percentage, thank you very much). Arkadya could be like myself and have a large frame that builds up muscle well and fast, at the expense of speed and limberness.   I don’t buy that crap about height and weight scales.  Its too restrictive and pays no attention to those that seek different areas of fitness.  Plus I’ve seen numerous persons in the Navy that fell within the limits of weight imposed by their height yet were visibly out of shape.  Bodyfat and aerobic endurance are the key areas to tell how fit a person is, with the person’s opinion having over-ruling authority (do you think you look fit?). Nuke — "To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself."  Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Benjamin Rush-1803 "Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus."  Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William Short-1820

Response:

you think im 40lbs overweight? wow, most people think im in good shape, i only have a small gut not too noticible, thats why i said 10lbs overweight. your saying i should weigh 130 lbs? I find that hard to believe Never Forgive, Never Forget 9-11-01

I have no idea what you look like, but I noticed that you are 5′6".  I’m 5′7" and I know I’m supposed to weigh anywhere from 140-150 lbs. At 5′6", I imagine you’re supposed to weigh 135-45? Ted http://hometown.aol.com/rhwbullhead/

Response:

you think im 40lbs overweight? wow, most people think im in good shape, i only have a small gut not too noticible, thats why i said 10lbs overweight. your saying i should weigh 130 lbs? I find that hard to believe Never Forgive, Never Forget 9-11-01

Response:

Unless you were holding a barbell when you weighed yourself, you are 40# overweight, not 10#. You are not likely to exchange that 40# for 40# of muscle. Granted your diet and exercise plan is moving in the right direction. My guess is that the intensity of your weight workout is in line with your two mile run. You will not be exchanging ANY muscle for fat. The most realistic goal is to lose the fat and try not to LOSE too much muscle along with it.

Response:

Easy there junior.  Why dont you get the "walking, and chewing gum" thing perfected before you try any other combo-activities.  I’m typing this very slowly because I know weightlifters don’t read very fast.

Response:

There’s lifting…..and there’s LIFTING.  I’m a triathlete and train hard 6 days a week.  I also lift twice a week.  I don’t overdo the total weight lifted as I want to build core strength, but don’t care if I can bench 240.  My weight has dropped quite a bit, and the weight training hasn’t added any back…..but it sure has made me feel stronger/faster, have faster recovery, and I have less overall aches and pains.  Most experts will tell you that incorporating resistance training into an overall cardio-diet program to lose weight will help you achieve your goals. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am currently reading the book "Body for Life" by Bill Phillips.  I bought the book the other day because from my personal experience running in and of itself has not really help me lose weight.  But, I have found that lifting weights, cycling, and running works good.  Especially, lifting weights.  It took me about 3 months before I started to notice results, but it does really work to shape a person’s body.  BTW, the bulking up from lifting is a urban myth.  Typically, most endurance athletes will not gain weight, but they will get stronger.  Power lifters gain weight but if you ask them about it, they will say something to the effect that it is not something easy to do. The book "Body for Life" has a program that is very close to the program that I have been using.  Next week I am going to start and use Bill’s program and see how that works. BTW – cyclist have the sexiest legs. does anyone know if its possible to do both at the same time? I am a 40  year old male. I am about 10 llbs overweight, I am 5′6” and weigh 170 lbs ,  it’s all in some flab on my stomach, i have started running 2 miles every  morning for the last month and i enjoy doing it every day, my energy levels have  realy picked up.And I started lifting weights twice a week. i would love to put  on some muscle and lose my gut, does anyone know if im working at  cross-purposes? any help would be apreciated, I have cut down on fats and sugars, i try to  eat 70 grams of proteins a day, I usualy mix some whey and bananas in a shake  after i lift. I also take Naicin and Plendil for cholesterol and blood pressure,  any advice as to if im on a good path would be apreciated, Never Forgive, Never Forget 9-11-01

Response:

I am currently reading the book "Body for Life" by Bill Phillips.  I bought the book the other day because from my personal experience running in and of itself has not really help me lose weight.  But, I have found that lifting weights, cycling, and running works good.  Especially, lifting weights.  It took me about 3 months before I started to notice results, but it does really work to shape a person’s body.  BTW, the bulking up from lifting is a urban myth.  Typically, most endurance athletes will not gain weight, but they will get stronger.  Power lifters gain weight but if you ask them about it, they will say something to the effect that it is not something easy to do. The book "Body for Life" has a program that is very close to the program that I have been using.  Next week I am going to start and use Bill’s program and see how that works. BTW – cyclist have the sexiest legs.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – does anyone know if its possible to do both at the same time? I am a 40 year old male. I am about 10 llbs overweight, I am 5′6” and weigh 170 lbs , it’s all in some flab on my stomach, i have started running 2 miles every morning for the last month and i enjoy doing it every day, my energy levels have realy picked up.And I started lifting weights twice a week. i would love to put on some muscle and lose my gut, does anyone know if im working at cross-purposes? any help would be apreciated, I have cut down on fats and sugars, i try to eat 70 grams of proteins a day, I usualy mix some whey and bananas in a shake after i lift. I also take Naicin and Plendil for cholesterol and blood pressure, any advice as to if im on a good path would be apreciated, Never Forgive, Never Forget 9-11-01

Response:

Putting onb lots of muscle weight while in an aerobic program is one of those false fears.  In my experience only a small fraction have the genetics to do this.  Reading the weights newsgroup, most people struggle pretty hard to put on a lot of muscle wieght.  And that involves stuffing yourself with twice the daily needed protein calories and using very powerful drugs such as steroids. I’d say the average person may keep 5-10 extra muscle pounds while running and weightlifting.  But s/he will look much better, especially in the upper body, with wieght training.

Response:

does anyone know if its possible to do both at the same time? I am a 40 year old male. I am about 10 llbs overweight, I am 5′6” and weigh 170 lbs , it’s all in some flab on my stomach, i have started running 2 miles every morning for the last month and i enjoy doing it every day, my energy levels have realy picked up.And I started lifting weights twice a week. i would love to put on some muscle and lose my gut, does anyone know if im working at cross-purposes? any help would be apreciated, I have cut down on fats and sugars, i try to eat 70 grams of proteins a day, I usualy mix some whey and bananas in a shake after i lift. I also take Naicin and Plendil for cholesterol and blood pressure, any advice as to if im on a good path would be apreciated, Never Forgive, Never Forget 9-11-01

Hell no, losing 10 pounds of fat and gaining 10 pounds of muscle is more than a fair trade.  You would have greater strength to move the same amount of weight.  Enhanced endurance combined with enhance strength is an amazing combo.   As for the diet and supplements you take, I’ll leave for the experts.  Just expect some to say you’re making major mistakes (doesn’t mean they’re right, but eh). Nuke – who also runs 5 times and lifts twice a week. — "To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself."  Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Benjamin Rush-1803 "Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus."  Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William Short-1820

Response:

does anyone know if its possible to do both at the same time? I am a 40 year old male. I am about 10 llbs overweight, I am 5′6” and weigh 170 lbs , it’s all in some flab on my stomach, i have started running 2 miles every morning for the last month and i enjoy doing it every day, my energy levels have realy picked up.And I started lifting weights twice a week. i would love to put on some muscle and lose my gut, does anyone know if im working at cross-purposes? any help would be apreciated, I have cut down on fats and sugars, i try to eat 70 grams of proteins a day, I usualy mix some whey and bananas in a shake after i lift. I also take Naicin and Plendil for cholesterol and blood pressure, any advice as to if im on a good path would be apreciated, Never Forgive, Never Forget 9-11-01

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Question:

I thought so as well.  Maybe I’m getting soft but I thought the show was a little more well rounded than in previous years (it actually showed some of the race!).  good job NBC. Marty IMcali 2001 IMH sometime before 2010 (hopefully…) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was a very short, but very good show. Some thoughts: – I am glad they showed the impact of that wind. It was unbelievably tough out there. -I think the scrambled nature of the results may have led to some tough choices on editing story lines and production. -The human interest side of things and the handling of September 11th was very well done. -I wonder if Dave can walk away as a DNF. Best, Mark Mannebach   IMH 1991 IMH 2001

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90 Minites? Minus commercials (and there was a lot of them), 2 NFL updates at 5+ minutes each,

1hour 15 minutes of actual coverage.  I thought it was so-so; theyve done better, they’ve done worse.  Specifically—I would have liked to hear more about the military athletes (there were many of them racing); the few guys who didn’t make it to Kona (like the fireman who decided not to come and stay working at Ground Zero); there were a few people racing in honor of someone who died on 09/11; why exactly did Peter Reid drop; do we really care that Lori/Heather giggle together?; what did those kids do/say when they found out Cheri G. finished. Stuff like that.  I agree the shot of the cyclists in the wind was great.  I was there, but in town, you had no idea of the wind, though the TV coverage didn’t convey just how toasted most of the people were.  It was nice to see coverage of the pros running down Ali’i Drive (especially Tomas H. and his dual flags) since we were sitting over on Kuakini just before the turn. clm in sf

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Aren’t these usually 2 hours long?

I also watched the IM Austria on another channel just a few hours before IM Hawaii.  I thought Austria coverage was much better because (a) less commercials (b) no breaks for NFL updates(very annoying if you’re not a footall fan)

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Aren’t these usually 2 hours long? I’m wondering what they’ll cut back on. I can’t think they could edit back the pro coverage any more. Or could they? God knows how important those human interest stories are for ratings. Not bashing the Human Interest stories here. They’re what got me dreaming of my first triathlon. But it will be interesting to see how much they can fit in. Gotta go buy my Nachos and Beer.

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I only caught the last 40 minutes or so but thought it pretty good.  I may easy to please as a newbie, it just looked so cool, such an accomplishment. I keep thinking about how it must feel to win a race.  I know I’m way too slow to ever do so but even ‘just not loosing so bad’ feels good. Did they cover the story about the lady whose husband was swept into the sea a few days before the race and she raced anyway? Regards, Sam

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aren’t these usually 2 hours long? I’m wondering what they’ll cut back on. I can’t think they could edit back the pro coverage any more. Or could they? God knows how important those human interest stories are for ratings. Not bashing the Human Interest stories here. They’re what got me dreaming of my first triathlon. But it will be interesting to see how much they can fit in. Gotta go buy my Nachos and Beer.

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90 Minites? Minus commercials (and there was a lot of them), 2 NFL updates at 5+ minutes each, only a couple of human interest stories (luckily). This didn’t leave much time for race coverage. The shot of the cyclist leaning sideways because of the wind was pretty cool though! B.Oliver

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It was a very short, but very good show. Some thoughts: – I am glad they showed the impact of that wind. It was unbelievably tough out there. -I think the scrambled nature of the results may have led to some tough choices on editing story lines and production. -The human interest side of things and the handling of September 11th was very well done. -I wonder if Dave can walk away as a DNF. Best, Mark Mannebach   IMH 1991 IMH 2001

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I only caught the last 40 minutes or so but thought it pretty good.  I may easy to please as a newbie, it just looked so cool, such an accomplishment.

They did a fair job, and I say that as a competitor this year and also as one that has watched probably 15 or so years’ worth of these shows.  Commercial interruptions were too frequent (just put more of them together; the second half of the show it seemed like there was a break every five minutes) and of course the two "Sports Desk" breaks seemed interminible and ill-placed, especially the second one which was a virtual repeat of the first.   Did they cover the story about the lady whose husband was swept into the sea a few days before the race and she raced anyway?

No, they left that one alone.  Too much of a polarizing aspect to it—at least equal parts "Wow, how strong she was" and "What the hell was she thinking", and the major networks will tend to shy away from something that is that much of a hot potato. Overall, I give this year’s show a 6 on a 1-10 scale….nice, though brief, bit on the Irongents and gals also, I thought. Mike C

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Aren’t these usually 2 hours long? I’m wondering what they’ll cut back on. I can’t think they could edit back the pro coverage any more. Or could they? God knows how important those human interest stories are for ratings. Not

We couldn’t have survived without knowing about those kids in the inner city who had no hope in life until they were introduced to triathlon.   I liked the shots of Larsen blowing by people.  I would have liked to see more footage of athletes fighting the wind.   — Rec.scuba strokes pics page: www.jor.com/strokes Aquashot page: www.jor.com/dive/aquashot

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Thanks Mike, for the update.  I am not surprised that they did not want to cover such a hot potato as that one.  Yet, somehow it seems news worthy, at least in the human interest vein.  I don’t have strong feelings about it myself, I can sorta understand it from both sides. Regards, Sam

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I only caught the last 40 minutes or so but thought it pretty good.  I may easy to please as a newbie, it just looked so cool, such an accomplishment. They did a fair job, and I say that as a competitor this year and also as one that has watched probably 15 or so years’ worth of these shows. Commercial interruptions were too frequent (just put more of them together; the second half of the show it seemed like there was a break every five minutes) and of course the two "Sports Desk" breaks seemed interminible and ill-placed, especially the second one which was a virtual repeat of the first. Did they cover the story about the lady whose husband was swept into the sea a few days before the race and she raced anyway? No, they left that one alone.  Too much of a polarizing aspect to it—at least equal parts "Wow, how strong she was" and "What the hell was she thinking", and the major networks will tend to shy away from something that is that much of a hot potato. Overall, I give this year’s show a 6 on a 1-10 scale….nice, though brief, bit on the Irongents and gals also, I thought. Mike C

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Question:

guess they did not take theIr clothes off race ‘ run with the light off’ roach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-No-Archive: yes A student athlete at California State University, Fullerton, has attracted a lot of attention since deciding to give up her running career in favor of continuing her career as a stripper. No pictures!!?  How can we know who’s right without pictures?  ;-) As I’m sure others said, she wanted to do both, and was given an either/or choice by the school. There was a picture on abcnews.com this morning. (fully clothed but on stage about to disrobe). The only reason the coach found out was the some of the basketball players were at the club and they saw her. Her husband noted that the basketball players were not disciplined for attending the strip club.

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I can sum it up in one word  SAD. Besides, when she gets older people probably won’t be willing to pay to see her.

Perhaps the College Bursar simply became annoyed at the tuition bill being paid in crumpled dollar bills smelling of beer. Jennifer  

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They may disapprove of the dancing, but that is no grounds to kick her off the team. That is just BS. They could bounce somebody for drugdealing or thievery or whatever, but not for legal employment. I hope all the brouhaha gets her an offer from a better school.

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<<snip I hope all the brouhaha gets her an offer from a better school.

The only offer I would see forthcoming would be from Mr. Hefner. Nat

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Other than basketball and some football programs, which athletes generate revenue? Baseball players, especially in California.

Really?  Which ones?  Curious, not trying to flame… Mike C

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Team For Revealing Too Much While schools don’t operate outside the applicable law of their respective state and other Federal rules, great latitude is given to the discretion of staff and administrators.  Neither the Consitution nor any state constitution that I’m aware of has a guaranteed freedom to strip. Jennifer – Nope, I wouldn’t take it on a contingency. "Put your clothes on young lady!"

I can sum it up in one word  SAD. Besides, when she gets older people probably won’t be willing to pay to see her.

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I have no problem with a school, business, team, etc setting standards for their (highly paid*) athletes to follow. But they need to be consistent. * Scholarships, meals, travel, etc When you consider the amount of money these athletes generate, then one might say they are not compensated fairly.

Other than basketball and some football programs, which athletes generate revenue?  Track does not cover costs in most, if not all programs.  The same with gymnastics, wrestling, swimming etc. David Olsen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Patrick

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Other than basketball and some football programs, which athletes generate revenue?

Baseball players, especially in California. Patrick

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Other than basketball and some football programs, which athletes generate revenue? Baseball players, especially in California. Patrick

Wow, that surprises me.  It seemed that when I was at Cal State Fullerton and at Arizona, baseball was a loser.  Do they get big crowds or is there another source of revenue?   Baseball has several scholarships, travel expenses, equipment and quite limited revenue.  Having seen the budgets at a few Higher Institutions of learning, athletics is pretty grim as a break even proposition.  That is one reason CSUF dropped football (It is expensive because of so many athletes, coaches, and equipment).  Basically, football makes money for big schools, basketball makes money for most schools, and most other programs struggle. David Olsen

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Since she was apparently responding to my original post (which never mentioned hetero- or homo- or bi- or mono- or whatever-sexuality), leave it to me to come up with the turgid academic politico-babble (I have been  around enough University Administrators and received enough of that sort of material to fill a cess-pool.   The problem is I can’t be bothered. what has heterosexuality got to do with it???! The explanation depends on how much turgid academic politico-babble you care to put up with…. BobMac

– Regards, Dave I’d love to think that there’s an end just waiting right around the bend, but every turn’s a tunnel.        I descend I’m the running man… Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key, The Last Man to Fly, 1991

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I have no problem with a school, business, team, etc setting standards for their (highly paid*) athletes to follow. But they need to be consistent. * Scholarships, meals, travel, etc

When you consider the amount of money these athletes generate, then one might say they are not compensated fairly. Patrick

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The main problem is not that she got chucked off the team – it is that the men were not disciplined equally.

That’s the only part that bothers me – the double standard. If she’s demeaning the University by stripping, they’re demeaning it by going to a strip club, particularly dressed in identifiable University athletic attire (as reported.) I have no problem with a school, business, team, etc setting standards for their (highly paid*) athletes to follow. But they need to be consistent. * Scholarships, meals, travel, etc Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 Great Floridian ‘99, ‘00

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what has heterosexuality got to do with it???!

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What is worse – they were apparently in full school regalia, while she (obviously) was not.  Perhaps if she had the school logo tattooed in an appropriate (or is that an inappropriate?) place, she would not have been chucked off the team. The main problem is not that she got chucked off the team – it is that the men were not disciplined equally. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-No-Archive: yes Typical double standard. To which Laura replied what has heterosexuality got to do with it???! ??? The double standard complained about in the article was that some other athletes were frequenting the strip club (which is how she was found out), yet no action was taken against them

– Regards, Dave I’d love to think that there’s an end just waiting right around the bend, but every turn’s a tunnel.        I descend I’m the running man… Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key, The Last Man to Fly, 1991

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what has heterosexuality got to do with it???!

The explanation depends on how much turgid academic politico-babble you care to put up with…. BobMac

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The coach SHOULD lose his job over this.  Here’s hoping that Gloria Allred takes the case, and this so-called "University" (really just an overgrown junior college) gets exposed for the bunch of bozos that they are. But the bottom line here might simply be that she chose the activity that best fits here, uh, "talents."  In college, 20:50 in a 5K xc race isn’t going to get it done.  Julia Stamps beat her by 5 minutes. Rios could just drive down the freeway to Cal State Long Beach, where the track folks are as nice as they come (I race in their meets a lot).  But with those times, she probably couldn’t make the team. Lyndon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the student athlete should sue everyone in sight!  If it’s not illegal then the coach has no right to do what he did unless there are specific rules at the university prohibiting such behavior.  The article mentions no such rules. Actually, Steve, it makes as much sense for the coach to sue her. He can lose his job over this, regardless of whether there are University rules against it. Her actions violate what I call the Spong rule of business survival: don’t friggin’ *DO* that to the boss! BobMac

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I think the student athlete should sue everyone in sight!  If it’s not illegal then the coach has no right to do what he did unless there are specific rules at the university prohibiting such behavior.  The article mentions no such rules.

Actually, Steve, it makes as much sense for the coach to sue her. He can lose his job over this, regardless of whether there are University rules against it. Her actions violate what I call the Spong rule of business survival: don’t friggin’ *DO* that to the boss! BobMac

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Runner Removed From Team For Revealing Too Much: A student athlete at California State University, Fullerton, has attracted a lot of attention since deciding to give up her running career in favor of continuing her career as a stripper. More… http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/2000/20010328/lo/345491_1.html

No pictures!!?  How can we know who’s right without pictures?  ;-)

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Team For Revealing Too Much I think the student athlete should sue everyone in sight!

zzz..uh? Sue?   snork..scratch…someone call me?   Lawsuits such as the one you suggest are very difficult to pursue.  Probably futile. Possibly frivolous.  Therefore it’s just a matter of time ’til she does it. While schools don’t operate outside the applicable law of their respective state and other Federal rules, great latitude is given to the discretion of staff and administrators.  Neither the Consitution nor any state constitution that I’m aware of has a guaranteed freedom to strip. Jennifer – Nope, I wouldn’t take it on a contingency. "Put your clothes on young lady!"

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Typical double standard. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Runner Removed From Team For Revealing Too Much: A student athlete at California State University, Fullerton, has attracted a lot of attention since deciding to give up her running career in favor of continuing her career as a stripper. More… http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/2000/20010328/lo/345491_1.html Ken Parker Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

– Regards, Dave I’d love to think that there’s an end just waiting right around the bend, but every turn’s a tunnel.        I descend I’m the running man… Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key, The Last Man to Fly, 1991

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Sounds like bullshit to me.  If you can run you can run.  It shouldn’t matter what the hell you do on your recovery time.  It’s a FREE country. 42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Actually, Charles, what she’s doing, in the opinion of those responsible, hurts the team, and the programme. This is a University team, you know? There are people on faculties, and in administrations, who get to make decisions about stuff like budgets, and programmes, who ain’t exactly erotica-friendly, or, for that matter, heterosexuality-friendly. Hey, some of’em are exactly anykindofimaginablesexuality-friendly. Women’s athletics already gets enough grief from some pointy-headed academics because of the stunningness issue; L. Rios (the runner in question) has given them ammunition to harm or shut down the programme. Anyone who could shut down a track team for sexual exploitation of women athletes would establish an instant, national reputation as a big player in the academic politics world. That way lies speaking engagements, NYTRB reviewing your latest doorstopper tome, pundit gigs on network television. (I’m not saying that there is a logical connection between the team and LR’s part-time job. It would make no more sense to shut down the track team than to shut down the physio programme that she’s studying in, but the track team is a soft target for a thrusting young academic looking to make his/her bones.) What’s more of a problem or me is that the ballplayers who went to see her similarly embarrassed the Uni, but got no discipline at all. BobMac

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unless there are specific rules at the university prohibiting such behavior.

ESPN did a big story on her like 2-3 weeks ago, there is a lot more to it.  The athletic dept. has a contract which the athletes sign stating off the field behavior, that they must represent the university in a positive and respectable manner..and the university sees stripping as negative…she isnt that hot anyway      s*th "I guess I should be one to talk…theres nights that I cant even walk…there’s days I couldnt give a fuck.."

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Sounds like bullshit to me.  If you can run you can run.  It shouldn’t matter what the hell you do on your recovery time.  It’s a FREE country. 42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.

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I think the student athlete should sue everyone in sight!  If it’s not illegal then the coach has no right to do what he did unless there are specific rules at the university prohibiting such behavior.  The article mentions no such rules. -S- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Runner Removed From Team For Revealing Too Much: A student athlete at California State University, Fullerton, has attracted a lot of attention since deciding to give up her running career in favor of continuing her career as a stripper. More… http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/2000/20010328/lo/345491_1.html Ken Parker Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

– Steve Freides

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Runner Removed From Team For Revealing Too Much: A student athlete at California State University, Fullerton, has attracted a lot of attention since deciding to give up her running career in favor of continuing her career as a stripper. More… http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/2000/20010328/lo/345491_1.html Ken Parker Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

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Question:

hi wendy, hope you are doing well.  congrats on becoming a USAT official. wht information do you have about the race and triathlete killed in VA? please forward any info you may have. good luck and hope to see you soon. i will be at IMUSA and perhaps IMFL.  knee surgery aug 4th.  yeah!  one more fix and i am good as new! rick

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A large part of the problem seems to be that USAT doesn’t support the officials financially – or RD’s who use them. From my discussions with refs, it’s my impression that it usually ends up costing you guys and gals money out of your own pocket. That’s ridiculous. It seems USAT might take a few bucks out of all that Olympic money to make the term "sanction" meaningful by requiring officials at sanctioned races and supporting the officials program with money. Adequate monetary compensation for refs would be a good first step. Well, there is a problem with that.  You are assuming that all members of USAT would like to have officials at races.  That just isn’t so. If USAT, rather than the Race Director, paid officials, then all members would be supporting the officials and what they do (not to mention that your annual membership would have to be substantially increased).  People vote with their money and there are many many races that simply do not want officials and they have a sizable customer base that obviously supports them.  Why should those people have to subsidize officials at someone else’s event, when they don’t even go to officiated races?

Well, then why should I subsidize the Olympic Team when I’m not a member of it? Because USAT is the national organization, with responsibilities to all of it’s constituencies, right? I understand your point, Charlie. But my contention for a long time has been that USAT sanctioning needs to mean something other than cheap insurance. It should mean compliance with all race rules and officials on the course. If that means higher dues and fees, fine. At least I’ll feel I’m in a fair race and getting my money’s worth. <snip So, though I come on this forum and attempt to recruit folks for the program, be assured that if you choose to become an official, it should be for love of the game and not for profit (or even break even).

I’m not arguing that. But when I think about the amount of money USAT will be spending for it’s officers to smooze it at the Olympics while asking their own race officials to spend money out of their own pockets to officiate – well, it makes me wonder about priorities. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

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So, don’t discount all non USAT races as I said in an earlier post. There are some quite excellant non USAT races out there.

Agreed!  Nearly all of my favorite triathlons have gone over to the darkside and gotten sanctioned, but a few duathlons have withstood the pressure.  Around here, when a race gets sanctioned by USAT, it seems the entry fee doubles without any noticeable improvement in quality.  I have yet to see a draft marshall at a sanctioned race here in NC. I’m not trying to say that USAT events are bad, just that they seem to add nothing to the race but costs. Before you buy.

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increased).  People vote with their money and there are many many races that simply do not want officials and they have a sizable customer base that obviously supports them.  Why should those people have to subsidize officials at someone else’s event, when they don’t even go to officiated races?

No one is forcing memberships on people at gunpoint, or compelling them to go to sanctioned races.  However, when I go to a sanctioned race, I have to pay a $5.00 fee or prove I’ve paid a larger annual fee. What benefit do I receive on that day, at that race, for the additional cost imposed by sanctioning?  If not officials, then WHAT?  If people do not want to pay for officials, they can do non-sanctioned races. So, though I come on this forum and attempt to recruit folks for the program, be assured that if you choose to become an official, it should be for love of the game and not for profit (or even break even).

Become a USAT official.  Travel to far off, exotic places.  Meet interesting, incredibly fit people, and get them angry with you. Don’t try to oversell it or anything, Charlie.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nonetheless, USAT should not sanction races that do not enforce USAT rules to USAT standards.  The sanctioning should mean more than the fact that a fee was paid (and will be charged of any non-member participants.) I started to agree with Brian, but then I thought better of that. I will agree that USAT sanction should mean more than insurance, but it doesn’t have to mean USAT officials. Where did I say USAT officials?  Read it again.  I said races that enforce USAT rules to USAT standards.  HOW is up to them.  USAT officials are not endowed with any magical powers by virtue of being USAT officials.  All I’m saying is that sanctioning should be a meaningful indication of how the race will actually be conducted, rather than a relfection of paperwork and money changing hands.

Gee Brian, I must have been recalling your earlier comments when you said: "However, when I go to a sanctioned race, I have to pay a $5.00 fee or prove I’ve paid a larger annual fee. What benefit do I receive on that day, at that race, for the additional cost imposed by sanctioning?  If not officials, then WHAT?" Did I read that wrong?  ;-) Bottom line is I agree that the USAT sanctioning should mean something. It should mean that we will have a safe and fair race. I hope that the sanctioning means the race directors will be properly trained, and required to enforce USAT rules. (USAT does provide training for race officials.) If USAT sanctioning means insurance is available for more races, then great. I wish it meant that there would be USAT official present, but we know that is not always the case. Here in the Southeast, by and large, we have many safe and fair races. I believe that is because we do have USAT officials at most of the races. Understandably, in the mid-Atlantic region, we have a lack of officials, and resulting complaints about the way the races are run. We have enough choices so I focus on the major races, state and regional championships. Any other race is really just a training exercise. I can’t speak for you, and your area, but I am generally very pleased with the USAT sanctioned races. It is an "indication of how the race will be conducted." "But hey, that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong" — Stewart Cox

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where did I say USAT officials?  Read it again.  I said races that enforce USAT rules to USAT standards.  HOW is up to them.  USAT officials are not endowed with any magical powers by virtue of being USAT officials.  All I’m saying is that sanctioning should be a meaningful indication of how the race will actually be conducted, rather than a relfection of paperwork and money changing hands. Gee Brian, I must have been recalling your earlier comments when you said: "However, when I go to a sanctioned race, I have to pay a $5.00 fee or prove I’ve paid a larger annual fee. What benefit do I receive on that day, at that race, for the additional cost imposed by sanctioning?  If not officials, then WHAT?" Did I read that wrong?  ;-)

Read again, carefully, the paragraph you quoted, this time taking care NOT to subconsciously insert the nonexistent "USAT" before "officials" in the last sentence.  In sales training, people are taught to emphasize benefit over feature.  USAT certification for officials is a feature. Quality officiation is a benefit, whether provided by Charlie Crawford himself, or anyone else who is able to do an effective job.  Not to knock Charlie in any way, but it’s the knowledge and integrity in his head that counts, not the card in his wallet.

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A large part of the problem seems to be that USAT doesn’t support the

officials financially – or RD’s who use them. From my discussions with refs, it’s my impression that it usually ends up costing you guys and gals money out of your own pocket. So, though I come on this forum and attempt to recruit folks for the program, be assured that if you choose to become an official, it should be for love of the game and not for profit (or even break even).

Charlie, I took that challenge and became an official a few months back.  I just got back from Pacific Crest in Sunriver Or. and it was a blast.  Besides helping with the race and providing for clean compitition it is fabulous way to watch the sport of triathlon. I have been trying to compete for the last 3 years in triathlon but with injuries and surgeries I have been lucky just to be able to train.  I have volunteered in other areas during races, bike lot, transition, etc. and have enjoyed it.  I hope officiating is as much fun. For those people thinking about helping out, I know the Northwest needs officials and probably all the other areas around the country do to.  So if you are interested in helping out and make this a better sport take up the challenge of officiating. Marc (hopefully headed to Hawaii to officiate) Hallen

Response:

A large part of the problem seems to be that USAT doesn’t support the officials financially – or RD’s who use them. From my discussions with refs, it’s my impression that it usually ends up costing you guys and gals money out of your own pocket. That’s ridiculous. It seems USAT might take a few bucks out of all that Olympic money to make the term "sanction" meaningful by requiring officials at sanctioned races and supporting the officials program with money. Adequate monetary compensation for refs would be a good first step.

Well, there is a problem with that.  You are assuming that all members of USAT would like to have officials at races.  That just isn’t so. If USAT, rather than the Race Director, paid officials, then all members would be supporting the officials and what they do (not to mention that your annual membership would have to be substantially increased).  People vote with their money and there are many many races that simply do not want officials and they have a sizable customer base that obviously supports them.  Why should those people have to subsidize officials at someone else’s event, when they don’t even go to officiated races? The Officials Program is essentially a professional service provider to race directors who are interested in providing that service to their customers.  USAT supports our training and administration, race directors subsidize our expenses at events.  There is really no way to pay for our time, since many of our officials are professionals who make more in a half hour than we get paid for a weekend of officiating.   I do not think that we have any officials who are in it for the money. Let’s see, this past weekend, for the Buffalo Springs Lake Triathlon, I had to take a day of vacation leave from work, spent two nights and three days away from my home and family, had 18 hours of travel time on the road, air, and airports, and had to make decisions that made a number of people very unhappy.  There’s no way I could put a price on that – particularly the time spent away from my wife and children. Triathlon is not a wealthy sport.  I am proud to serve any race director who sincerely wants to have a fair race and will support me by giving me the motorcycles and additional officials I need.  I would think it wonderful if I could make a living at it but I recognize it as something that brings me pleasure because i know that we help make my favorite sport fair for all the contestants.   So, though I come on this forum and attempt to recruit folks for the program, be assured that if you choose to become an official, it should be for love of the game and not for profit (or even break even). -Charlie Crawford USAT Commissioner of Officials

Response:

Believe it or not we have gotten some resistance from long time triathletes especially when it comes to rules enforcement and assessing penalties. It has been expressed that if you can’t catch everyone that it isn’t "fair" to penalize the ones you can.

poppycock. A couple of possible responses to such an idio-, er, person; ‘How does my failure to catch so-and-so change the fact that *you* broke the rules?’ ‘Oh right – all the other kids are doing it, huh? If they jumped off a bridge . . .’ Before you buy.

Response:

I can remember Therese Bynum with Team Magic in Birmingham, arguably one the best RDs in the country being asked to work with a race a few years ago and turning them down because it was on a two lane beach highway that would be open to traffic. The standards that people like Therese and Charlie have set in their part of the world are so much higher than in many other regions including the west coast of Florida where we now live.

Amen! I love to do Team Magic events — Powerman Alabama/Whistlestop, Mountain Lakes Tri, Buster Britton Tri, etc. For those who don’t know, Therese of Team Magic is an excellent triathlete herself. I compare other races to those Therese and Faye direct. Rarely, is there a race that can match what Team Magic does, especially for the small registration fee. If only I could convince them to put on some events in North Georgia… Oh, BTW, Tri-Atlanta (a triathlon club in Georgia) also directs an excellent race — the Tugaloo Triathlon. They’re another example of race directors who understand our concerns, needs and wants in a race, because they are triathletes themselves. David / FEY2K IMCA2000 16:53 GFT2001  tba (remove spaces) at att dot net

Response:

Gotta agree with Wendy here.  Insurance should have two definitions: cover you in case of accident, but primarily to insure against accident.  If a race receives USAT approval and we, the athletes, pay 5 bucks a pop or 30 bucks a year, there should be a pretty substantial amount of safety and officiating involved.  I’m talking about at least 2 officials and as many police and traffic control assistants as you can get. The sport of triathlon has slowly but methodically become big business, and as is usual in big business, the individual becomes less important.  ie – he crashed and got killed, but there are 30 newbies who will stick with it next year and enter 4 of our races regardless of safety. Wendy is right to call on USAT to have these races meet higher standards, but it is also up to us as individuals to report substandard races using the USAT race report form on their website.  Don’t let dangerous or poorly organized races slide! Marty G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess I got started thinking about this because I’ve been so upset that about Gary Taylor being killed in VA during a race last week. This reminds me of the posts we see periodically "my garden club wants to do a triathlon as a fund raiser. Which three sports are involved?" My husband and I recently finished working with the Mad Dog Mad Beach Triathlon here in West Florida and though it was a lot of hard work for a lot of people we were very pleased with the quality of the race. We had two primary goals in getting involved with this event, 1) put on a safe, quality kid’s and beginners race and 2) bring a higher level of fairness and safety to the main adult event on Sunday. I think we accomplished both goals. This couldn’t have been done without the leadership of Race Director York Sommerville and the hard work of all of the St. Pete Mad Dogs who turned out both Saturday and then Sunday. (many of whom then didn’t get to race) The end of last year when the discussions on the RST turned to the lack of certified USAT officials I promised that I would personally get involved. I have, along with my husband Al, worked to encourage members of our community to take the clinic and complete their apprenticeship to become Cat 3 officials. Al, along with Michael Gars, Susan Coates and Duke Breitenbach are all now Cat 3 which means that they can work as head officials at USAT events (Charlie, correct me if I am wrong). Because of other race related volunteering and racing I will not be taking the clinic until the fall (full disclosure:-) but will be certified, hopefully by the end of the year. As for Mad Beach, we had four USAT officials, 25 volunteers and 30 county sheriffs on the 15 mile bike course. Even with this amount of coverage we had three bike crashes, one involving an unauthorized car cutting into the course. A couple of these guys being hurt bad enough to go to the hospital. Thank heavens there seems to be no long term serious damage. I must tell you that as the volunteer co-ordinator I felt personally responsible that we should have done something more to prevent at least one these incidences. York or I personally called everyone we knew that had been hurt to see if there was anything we could do to help and make sure that we didn’t let those situations occur again. I can remember Therese Bynum with Team Magic in Birmingham, arguably one the best RDs in the country being asked to work with a race a few years ago and turning them down because it was on a two lane beach highway that would be open to traffic. The standards that people like Therese and Charlie have set in their part of the world are so much higher than in many other regions including the west coast of Florida where we now live. Believe it or not we have gotten some resistance from long time triathletes especially when it comes to rules enforcement and assessing penalties. It has been expressed that if you can’t catch everyone that it isn’t "fair" to penalize the ones you can. I am unapologetic in my zeal to see a higher safety standard in races. I remember telling Chuck Amsler (a great triathlete and Cat 3 from Birmingham) after I moved down here that if I didn’t race in unofficiated races then I wouldn’t race at all except for CFT in Clermont and St. Anthony’s. That would have meant skipping 60% of the local races so instead, we put our money where our mouths were. Most of these races take our USAT memberships or charge the $5 one day fee so that they can get the insurance offered by USAT but have no intention of going to the extra expense of having USAT officials. I would strongly encourage USAT to stop allowing this practice and also strongly encourage my fellow triathletes from racing in unofficiated races. Wendy "now you know where I’ve been all spring" in St. Pete Beach

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Response:

One reason we have avoided sanctioning our races is the cost of USAT officials. We try to provide a low cost race, well run, and SAFE. Also, we have a club mandate to give back to the community so both of our races give profits to charities. So, if we spend $1000 or more on officals, there will be some kids not getting toys at Christmas…we do use some officials out on motorcycles, but they aren’t USAT, just local volunteers and we use a time trial format, so drafting is minimal. So, don’t discount all non USAT races as I said in an earlier post. There are some quite excellant non USAT races out there. Before you buy.

Response:

<warning: whine and rant mode on Wendy alluded to it elsewhere in her post, but there’s currently no way to have officials at every USAT sanctioned race. There just aren’t enough of us. In the MidAtlantic region this year, we have 11 officials; we added one, and nine have gone inactive. I am the only official in the state of North Carolina, and there is none in Pennsylvania or New Jersey. I’ve only been at this a little more than three years, but my sense is that we’re losing, not gaining, ground in this region.

A large part of the problem seems to be that USAT doesn’t support the officials financially – or RD’s who use them. From my discussions with refs, it’s my impression that it usually ends up costing you guys and gals money out of your own pocket. That’s ridiculous. It seems USAT might take a few bucks out of all that Olympic money to make the term "sanction" meaningful by requiring officials at sanctioned races and supporting the officials program with money. Adequate monetary compensation for refs would be a good first step. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

Response:

A large part of the problem seems to be that USAT doesn’t support the officials financially – or RD’s who use them. From my discussions with refs, it’s my impression that it usually ends up costing you guys and gals money out of your own pocket. That’s ridiculous. It seems USAT might take a few bucks out of all that Olympic money to make the term "sanction" meaningful by requiring officials at sanctioned races and supporting the officials program with money. Adequate monetary compensation for refs would be a good first step.

Forget Olympic money – at any sanctioned race, roughly half the entrants pay $5.00 for nothing BUT the BENEFITS of USAT sanctioning – benefits to THEM, the participants.  That money should go directly to providing participant sanctioning benefits (like officiating) at THAT event. I’ll bet USAT’s insurance underwriter bases the premiums on a bunch of claims about how safe USAT officiating makes a race, too.  Wonder what they’d say if someone was impailed on a cowhorn with no end plug, and the investigators asked how that violation excaped the officials’ notice and someone said "WHAT officials?"  Can you say denial of coverage?   Insurance companies have NO sense of humor about policies underwritten on the basis of false pretences.

Response:

Nonetheless, USAT should not sanction races that do not enforce USAT rules to USAT standards.  The sanctioning should mean more than the fact that a fee was paid (and will be charged of any non-member participants.) I started to agree with Brian, but then I thought better of that. I will agree that USAT sanction should mean more than insurance, but it doesn’t have to mean USAT officials.

Where did I say USAT officials?  Read it again.  I said races that enforce USAT rules to USAT standards.  HOW is up to them.  USAT officials are not endowed with any magical powers by virtue of being USAT officials.  All I’m saying is that sanctioning should be a meaningful indication of how the race will actually be conducted, rather than a relfection of paperwork and money changing hands.

Response:

Thanks for the compliment Chuck. It sure is good to see you back on the NG. As you well know we were really disappointed at the race quality here and so we are working hard to do something about it. I’ve done the recruiting and PR, Al (husband) has done the real work – getting certified and working those races. I’ll be joining him at the Florida Challenge in Clermont in Sept. Glad to here that you are alive, kicking and officiating! Wendy in St. Pete Beach

Response:

Wendy alluded to it elsewhere in her post, but there’s currently no way to have officials at every USAT sanctioned race. There just aren’t enough of us. …<snip… You have to make it clear to race directors that you’re willing to pay to have officials there, and you have to ensure that there ARE officials. Thanks for planning to join the ranks, Wendy. How about the rest of you?

David makes many good points. I’d add that the more Officials we have in the program, the more affordable they are likely to become for your local race directors. Far and away the biggest cost of Officials for a RD is often (if not usually) our travel expenses. I’ve worked 4 races in the past 6 weekends and that has been true (by several fold) in 3 of them. These are also somewhat "unknown" expenses for a RD trying to budget for the event. The approach Wendy and the Mad Dogs have taken in "growing their own" Officials is something that more clubs should serously think about doing (IMHO). By providing a pool of local Officials, they have made it much more affordable for RDs in their area to have us there. (And by getting a fair number of folks involved as Officials, they are "sharing the load" between them.) At the same time they are making it clear to the local RDs that having USAT Officals there to help ensure a fair event is important to their members, they are making it easier and cheaper for the RDs to follow their wishes. I made the decision a few years ago that I was only going to support races where the RD cared enough about fairness to have USAT Officials. Unlike many people, I live in an area of the country where I can do that and still race all I want (10 plus each last year and the one before; circumstances have kept me from being race ready yet this year so I’m Officiating more early this season). After a while it dawned on me that if I cared that much about it, I should do my part and become a USAT Official so I did. It is not difficult and is a wonderful way to "give something back." Regardless of whether you are speaking as an individual or as part of a club, if you care about this, let RDs know that you care about it! Moreover, I urge you to go to http://www.usat-se.w1.com/ofprog.htm for more info on becoming a USAT Official.   — Chuck (USAT Cat 2) Dr. Chuck Amsler, Associate Professor of Biology University of Alabama at Birmingham Contact & Research: http://www.uab.edu/uabbio/amsler.htm Antarctic Chemical Ecology: http://www.uab.edu/uabbio/s022/

Response:

<warning: whine and rant mode on Wendy alluded to it elsewhere in her post, but there’s currently no way to have officials at every USAT sanctioned race. There just aren’t enough of us. In the MidAtlantic region this year, we have 11 officials; we added one, and nine have gone inactive. I am the only official in the state of North Carolina, and there is none in Pennsylvania or New Jersey. I’ve only been at this a little more than three years, but my sense is that we’re losing, not gaining, ground in this region. Now, the lack of officials mean more than just there not being enough of us to go around. It means we have to do some pretty absurd things and risk burn out. For example, last year I drove a round-trip of over 1,200 miles in two days to work a race (the Lighter-than-Air Duathlon). It just so happens that I’m feeling selfish this year: I’d like to race at least as many events as I officiate. If you believe in draft-free, fair, rules-compliant triathlon, you’ve got to do more than cough up $30 each year. You have to make it clear to race directors that you’re willing to pay to have officials there, and you have to ensure that there ARE officials. Thanks for planning to join the ranks, Wendy. How about the rest of you? <whine and rant mode off David Schoonmaker (50-54 AG, USAT official) Durham, NC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gotta agree with Wendy here.  Insurance should have two definitions: cover you in case of accident, but primarily to insure against accident.  If a race receives USAT approval and we, the athletes, pay 5 bucks a pop or 30 bucks a year, there should be a pretty substantial amount of safety and officiating involved.  I’m talking about at least 2 officials and as many police and traffic control assistants as you can get. Wendy is right to call on USAT to have these races meet higher standards, but it is also up to us as individuals to report substandard races using the USAT race report form on their website.  Don’t let dangerous or poorly organized races slide! Marty G. . Most of these races take our USAT memberships or charge the $5 one day fee so that they can get the insurance offered by USAT but have no intention of going to the extra expense of having USAT officials. I would strongly encourage USAT to stop allowing this practice and also strongly encourage my fellow triathletes from racing in unofficiated races.

Response:

There are some great non-USAT races and great non-officiated races. Just as there are some USAT, officiated and not,  races that excuse my language, suck…. I would suggest everybody evaluate each race on their own merit and not group them into groups based upon labels….. Nonetheless, USAT should not sanction races that do not enforce USAT rules to USAT standards.  The sanctioning should mean more than the fact that a fee was paid (and will be charged of any non-member participants.)

I started to agree with Brian, but then I thought better of that. I will agree that USAT sanction should mean more than insurance, but it doesn’t have to mean USAT officials. As Clyde points out, you really do have to evaluate each race on its own merits. I will always prefer to see that a race has requested USAT officials. It is a sure sign here in the mid-south that we will have a fairly run race. My hat is off to Charlie, Chuck, David, Marsha, and all the other officials here in the south, and across the nation. But another example is the Double Dam Triathlon in Knoxville, formerly the Knoxville Lock Triathlon. I have raced in this low key "club" race several times in the past years. (A good chance to see my son in Knoxville). This race is on the USAT-SE calendar, but they have not requested USAT officials, nor do I believe they have in the past. However, the course is inherently safe with really only one intersection, and plenty of sheriffs to control/limit the traffic. The hills early in the bike course spread out the racers so drafting hasn’t been a problem from my perspective. This race will never compare to Memphis In May, or any of the Team Magic races, but it is a fun race on a safe course. Oh, and by the way, I believe I saw Theresa Bynum of Team Magic participating in this race in 1997. She won her age group. (Okay, she beat me too.) No, you don’t have to have USAT officials to have a good race, but it helps. — Stewart Cox

Response:

There are some great non-USAT races and great non-officiated races. Just as there are some USAT, officiated and not,  races that excuse my language, suck…. I would suggest everybody evaluate each race on their own merit and not group them into groups based upon labels…..

Nonetheless, USAT should not sanction races that do not enforce USAT rules to USAT standards.  The sanctioning should mean more than the fact that a fee was paid (and will be charged of any non-member participants.)

Response:

snip<<<

Rules are for all, and must be followed.  Our local event outfit, Ironhead Race productions, does a good job.  Jack Weiss shouts and yells and cajoles like the drill seargeant he used to be, and keeps everyone in line.  I hear people moaning about how strict he is, all I can say is good for him.  I would sooner race in a tightly controlled race than a loosy goosy one, I feel much safer.  If your helmet is cracked, or your bike is unsafe, you should be not be allowed to race. Case in point: at a fairly important race, one of the elite women was told she couldn’t compete because she was missing a bar plug.  As it turned out, I always have extras and helped her get in the race (she finished fourth) but I respect Jack for sticking to the rules.  Some organizers may bend the rules to keep the elites happy (or other favorites), Jack doesn’t.  That’s how it should be. At the same time, the organizers must also provide safety for the the competitors.  I don’t know what happened in VA, but if there was no enforcement at a critical intersection I think the organizers are in the wrong.  Just like they expect the athletes to obey the rules, they too must adhere to strict safety standards, and traffic control is one of them.  It is for all our benefit. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can remember Therese Bynum with Team Magic in Birmingham, arguably one the best RDs in the country being asked to work with a race a few years ago and turning them down because it was on a two lane beach highway that would be open to traffic. The standards that people like Therese and Charlie have set in their part of the world are so much higher than in many other regions including the west coast of Florida where we now live. Amen! I love to do Team Magic events — Powerman Alabama/Whistlestop, Mountain Lakes Tri, Buster Britton Tri, etc. For those who don’t know, Therese of Team Magic is an excellent triathlete herself. I compare other races to those Therese and Faye direct. Rarely, is there a race that can match what Team Magic does, especially for the small registration fee. If only I could convince them to put on some events in North Georgia… Oh, BTW, Tri-Atlanta (a triathlon club in Georgia) also directs an excellent race — the Tugaloo Triathlon. They’re another example of race directors who understand our concerns, needs and wants in a race, because they are triathletes themselves. David / FEY2K IMCA2000 16:53 GFT2001  tba (remove spaces) at att dot net

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gotta agree with Wendy here.  Insurance should have two definitions: cover you in case of accident, but primarily to insure against accident.  If a race receives USAT approval and we, the athletes, pay 5 bucks a pop or 30 bucks a year, there should be a pretty substantial amount of safety and officiating involved.  I’m talking about at least 2 officials and as many police and traffic control assistants as you can get. The sport of triathlon has slowly but methodically become big business, and as is usual in big business, the individual becomes less important.  ie – he crashed and got killed, but there are 30 newbies who will stick with it next year and enter 4 of our races regardless of safety. Wendy is right to call on USAT to have these races meet higher standards, but it is also up to us as individuals to report substandard races using the USAT race report form on their website.  Don’t let dangerous or poorly organized races slide! Marty G.

This has come up before, the idea that USAT should require officials as part of the sanction agreement. This can be a problem. I have done USAT races with blatant drafting and no officials on the course and unsanctioned races that were very well controlled. The USAT sanction on a race should really mean something. This is now an Olympic sport and having the national body recognizing a race should mean that it meets a certain standard, not just that the RD paid a fee to get his/her insurance. St Anthony’s never was sanctioned until about ‘93-’94, when they had to be to get their Ironman slots. It was then, and still is, a high profile race with a reputation for being tough on drafting. The USAT sanction didn’t bring draft control to St Anthony’s. They already had it. It just changed from their own enforcers to USAT officials. The RD’s commitment to run a fair race was there before. I have seen some of our USAT people on this group who have stated that any race that is unsanctioned is essentially draft-legal. This is not always the case. It should be, though, that any race that DOES have a USAT sanction is definitely run by the recognized rules with enforcement in place. cheers, Andrew — Andrew Peabody/Karen Fisher Coconut Grove, FL

Response:

 I would strongly encourage USAT to stop allowing this practice and also strongly encourage my fellow triathletes from racing in unofficiated races. Wendy "now you know where I’ve been all spring" in St. Pete Beach

There are some great non-USAT races and great non-officiated races. Just as there are some USAT, officiated and not,  races that excuse my language, suck…. I would suggest everybody evaluate each race on their own merit and not group them into groups based upon labels….. Before you buy.

Response:

As for Mad Beach, we had four USAT officials, 25 volunteers and 30 county sheriffs on the 15 mile bike course. Even with this amount of coverage we had three bike crashes, one involving an unauthorized car cutting into the course.

Our tri club helps to put on the big Alcatraz race and there have been cases where a driver willfully disregards a uniformed police officer and drives onto the course.  When this happens, what can a poor civilian volunteer do?  (Of course, in San Francisco, everyone runs red lights on a regular basis.  I say shoot to kill.) Believe it or not we have gotten some resistance from long time triathletes especially when it comes to rules enforcement and assessing penalties. It has been expressed that if you can’t catch everyone that it isn’t "fair" to penalize the ones you can.

Unfortunately,I have found this too in all the races I have volunteered at, especially in the last two years. People not paying attention to the schedule and then bitching about being late or not allowed to do whatever, not paying attention to or total disregard of the rules, and the general attitude of "me me me" and "everyone else does it".  The onus has to be on the individual triathlete, but some fault should be put on certain race directors who add additional people to a race when people start in with the sob stories and whining or say they are having USAT refs, but then give out awards before the refs turn in their stuff.   If there is a limit, stick to it. If there are rules, enforce clm, the grumpy Before you buy.

Response:

I guess I got started thinking about this because I’ve been so upset that about Gary Taylor being killed in VA during a race last week.  This reminds me of the posts we see periodically "my garden club wants to do a triathlon as a fund raiser. Which three sports are involved?" My husband and I recently finished working with the Mad Dog Mad Beach Triathlon here in West Florida and though it was a lot of hard work for a lot of people we were very pleased with the quality of the race. We had two primary goals in getting involved with this event, 1) put on a safe, quality kid’s and beginners race and 2) bring a higher level of fairness and safety to the main adult event on Sunday. I think we accomplished both goals. This couldn’t have been done without the leadership of Race Director York Sommerville and the hard work of all of the St. Pete Mad Dogs who turned out both Saturday and then Sunday. (many of whom then didn’t get to race) The end of last year when the discussions on the RST turned to the lack of certified USAT officials I promised that I would personally get involved. I have, along with my husband Al, worked to encourage members of our community to take the clinic and complete their apprenticeship to become Cat 3 officials. Al, along with Michael Gars, Susan Coates and Duke Breitenbach are all now Cat 3 which means that they can work as head officials at USAT events (Charlie, correct me if I am wrong). Because of other race related volunteering and racing I will not be taking the clinic until the fall (full disclosure:-) but will be certified, hopefully by the end of the year. As for Mad Beach, we had four USAT officials, 25 volunteers and 30 county sheriffs on the 15 mile bike course. Even with this amount of coverage we had three bike crashes, one involving an unauthorized car cutting into the course. A couple of these guys being hurt bad enough to go to the hospital. Thank heavens there seems to be no long term serious damage. I must tell you that as the volunteer co-ordinator I felt personally responsible that we should have done something more to prevent at least one these incidences. York or I personally called everyone we knew that had been hurt to see if there was anything we could do to help and make sure that we didn’t let those situations occur again. I can remember Therese Bynum with Team Magic in Birmingham, arguably one the best RDs in the country being asked to work with a race a few years ago and turning them down because it was on a two lane beach highway that would be open to traffic. The standards that people like Therese and Charlie have set in their part of the world are so much higher than in many other regions including the west coast of Florida where we now live. Believe it or not we have gotten some resistance from long time triathletes especially when it comes to rules enforcement and assessing penalties. It has been expressed that if you can’t catch everyone that it isn’t "fair" to penalize the ones you can. I am unapologetic in my zeal to see a higher safety standard in races. I remember telling Chuck Amsler (a great triathlete and Cat 3 from Birmingham) after I moved down here that if I didn’t race in unofficiated races then I wouldn’t race at all except for CFT in Clermont and St. Anthony’s. That would have meant skipping 60% of the local races so instead, we put our money where our mouths were. Most of these races take our USAT memberships or charge the $5 one day fee so that they can get the insurance offered by USAT but have no intention of going to the extra expense of having USAT officials. I would strongly encourage USAT to stop allowing this practice and also strongly encourage my fellow triathletes from racing in unofficiated races. Wendy "now you know where I’ve been all spring" in St. Pete Beach

Response:

Question:

Hi everyone, I sent a note to AT&T to let them know about these messages. Here’s what I got back. Thought you might want to know. Say… we haven’t been getting any more of these messages. Think they’re gone for good? Vanessa "dreaming of a spam-free Christmas" Smith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’ve been getting these messages in rec.sport.triathlon… about a half dozen a day for several days. We don’t want them, especially not dozens of them. Would you please get this clown to cut it out? Thanks. Vanessa <infamous enlargement spam snipped Thank you for contacting the AT&T WorldNet Service Abuse Department.   The Abuse Desk has investigated the abuse that you reported and will be taking the appropriate action.  Please continue to let us know when such instances occur.  If you have any other questions or concerns, please e-mail us at: Thank you. Regards, AT&T WorldNet Service Abuse Group

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Cool!  Thank you very much for trying to get something done about that, it was getting very old. Rus

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Question:

Try this tip: Put your foot inside a small plastic bag, then step into the wetsuit – you foot, will just glide through the suit as easy as could be. Repeat for other leg. Remember to remove plastic bag from around your ankle before you start swimming… Cheers, Andrew —                              o                    _o       <|                  _ <_      _  ____ –^o- __  (_)/(_) __   /  ______ |                                     | | Andrew Turnbull                     | | Stirling Triathlon Club             | | http://www.stirling-tri.demon.co.uk | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got my first wet suite (QR longjohn). It fits me perfectly but trying to put the thing on takes me 20 minutes. I usually spend about 10 minutes with the suite at my waist trying to inch up more rubber along my legs. Maybe it’s because my calves and thighs are big? In any case, it turns into a big project and is almost a workout in itself. I do always put it on dry with socks on. Taking the thing off is easier but it get’s difficult trying to get the last part around the heel. Maybe I should use some device like a tire lever to help me out? Like a big rice spoon or something. Or maybe I am being too cautious because I don’t want to rip the thing since it cost me so much freakin money. Joe

Response:

Hey: I just got my first wet suite (QR longjohn). It fits me perfectly but trying to put the thing on takes me 20 minutes. I usually spend about 10 minutes with the suite at my waist trying to inch up more rubber along my legs. Maybe it’s because my calves and thighs are big? In any case, it turns into a big project and is almost a workout in itself. I do always put it on dry with socks on. Taking the thing off is easier but it get’s difficult trying to get the last part around the heel. Maybe I should use some device like a tire lever to help me out? Like a big rice spoon or something. Or maybe I am being too cautious because I don’t want to rip the thing since it cost me so much freakin money. Joe

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I understand the reluctance to be aggressive with it, when removing, given the amount it cost. But with some practice you’ll learn that they can take a lot of abuse, in terms of stretching. I find the trick is to push it down as far as it will go, stand on a leg of it with one foot, grab the opposite knee with both hands and pull up hard & fast. However, be aware of the surface you are standing on — not a good look if the transition is on gravel… but fine if on grass or on matting etc etc. — MB.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey: I just got my first wet suite (QR longjohn). It fits me perfectly but trying to put the thing on takes me 20 minutes. I usually spend about 10 minutes with the suite at my waist trying to inch up more rubber along my legs. Maybe it’s because my calves and thighs are big? In any case, it turns into a big project and is almost a workout in itself. I do always put it on dry with socks on. Taking the thing off is easier but it get’s difficult trying to get the last part around the heel. Maybe I should use some device like a tire lever to help me out? Like a big rice spoon or something. Or maybe I am being too cautious because I don’t want to rip the thing since it cost me so much freakin money. Joe

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the wetter the suit the easier it is to remove.  when i’m not in a race,  i take the suit off in the water. it just slides right off.  in a race, i’ll use lots of "pam", and try to remove it as soon as possible after leaving the water. todd sandiego

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Quick and to the point. The following can all be used to spray/apply the inside of the suit prior to doning. 1) Pure silicone spray (make sure it’s 100% pure and not a mix of other stuff) 2) PAM (use the unflavored one 3) Body glide The following should NEVER be used in contact with wetsuits: 1) Vaseline (petroleum jelly) 2) Oil (petroleum based) 3) Grease (it gets pretty ugly) 4) Sportslick (contains petroleum) Hope this helps -Andrew — U S WEST Advanced Technologies 4001 Discovery Dr. Boulder, CO 80303 (303)541-6212 voice, -8264 fax

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Liberally dusting the inside of the suit with powder will make it slide right on. Jim Wouldnt that tend to turn into papier mache when it gets wet? John "Ad astra per aspera" "A rough road leads to the stars"

I have used powder thousands of times (35+ yrs of diving, 21+ of which where as a military diver) and I have never had a problem.   Jim

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Hey Joe, what you may want to do is sprinkle a little baby powder around the ankles and lower calves to make it easier to take off.  The suit may also be just a bit too long and need to be trimmed.  You can cut some of the material off the legs and angle it upward towards the calf (slightly).  Take only an inch at a time to make sure you don’t end of with bell bottoms.  The length should end up about an inch or inch and a half above the ankle bone.  What is your height and weight ? You may have the wrong size suit. – Nato – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey: I just got my first wet suite (QR longjohn). It fits me perfectly but trying to put the thing on takes me 20 minutes. I usually spend about 10 minutes with the suite at my waist trying to inch up more rubber along my legs. Maybe it’s because my calves and thighs are big? In any case, it turns into a big project and is almost a workout in itself. I do always put it on dry with socks on. Taking the thing off is easier but it get’s difficult trying to get the last part around the heel. Maybe I should use some device like a tire lever to help me out? Like a big rice spoon or something. Or maybe I am being too cautious because I don’t want to rip the thing since it cost me so much freakin money. Joe

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Liberally dusting the inside of the suit with powder will make it slide right on. Jim

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Liberally dusting the inside of the suit with powder will make it slide right on. Jim

Wouldnt that tend to turn into papier mache when it gets wet? John "Ad astra per aspera" "A rough road leads to the stars"

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I understand the reluctance to be aggressive with it, when

removing, given the amount it cost. But with some practice you’ll learn that they can take a lot of abuse, in terms of stretching. I find the trick is to push it down as far as it will go, stand on a leg of it with one foot, grab the opposite knee with both hands and pull up hard & fast. However, be aware of the surface you are standing on — not a good look if the transition is on gravel… but fine if on grass or on matting etc etc.<< Should this technique be applied near the water’s edge or upon reaching the bike corral?  Can anyone else add more detail to the technique? I find putting the suit on is fast but getting it off past the calves is a major pain.  At IMC volunteers yank the suit off.  Is it legal in other IM distance races for volunteers (or other racers) to assist someone in the removal of their suit? —

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Question:

I am looking for a quality pair of used aero bars.  I do not know a lot about them other than I need a pair.  Any info about what to get and why would be appreciated. Thanks, Craig

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I am looking for a quality pair of used aero bars.  I do not know a lot about them other than I need a pair.  Any info about what to get and why would be appreciated.

Craig- I started with a cheap pair of Profiles, the one size fits all variety.   After a week I sold them for half price to my riding partner and went and got a good pair (Profile AirStryke’s, I think).  My problem with the cheap ones was that they weren’t adjustable in length and I was too cramped.  Even at that, though, I could tell they made a phenomenal difference. Hope this helps. Jim Jamison

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Craig- Triathlete Zombies, 800-999-2215, is selling Profile Airstrykes for $60, and SuperStrykes for $70.  Almost as cheap as used, but new with warranty! Good Luck! John (Faith) Ft. Washington, MD

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Question:

Its about time to replace my stock Shimano HG-90 chain.  Has anyone out there had any experience with the Regina hollow pin chain?  How long has it lasted? How much weight was actually saved over conventional? Thanks in advance Mike Randow

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Its about time to replace my stock Shimano HG-90 chain.  Has anyone out there had any experience with the Regina hollow pin chain?  How long has it lasted? How much weight was actually saved over conventional?

-Nothing significant in weight savings. (contrary to popular opinion you do not have to carry your bike) -The chain is too wide for 8speed. -Regina’’s quality control is not very good. Their freewheels arent’around here anymore. -My tip is to buy a SEDISPORT or SACHS R-80 chain instead. they beat HG90. BITUMEN      (“““`)   ( (o) (o) )  (     .     )   ( |-__-|  )    (       ) RULES O.K.

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: Its about time to replace my stock Shimano HG-90 chain.  Has anyone out : there had any experience with the Regina hollow pin chain?  How long has : it lasted? How much weight was actually saved over conventional? : Thanks in advance : Mike Randow —— My opinion is to the contrary of others. I’ve had 4 Regina SL’s in 3 years of racing. Firstly, if you’re a gram-pincher, you save about 100g, which translates to almost .25lbs. Save 100g here, 100g there, and your bike is suddenly a pound or so lighter…very noticable up hills (what we have here in N. Florida). Secondly, I’ve never had a problem with the strength of the Regina, but then again, I’m a typical skinny triathlete (do those exist anymore?) at 150lbs. Anyway, the other poster was right when he said they wouldn’t work with 8spd. Actually, I did get mine to work with my Shim. 8spd rear, but it was so noisy it drove me nuts! Now I use the Regina for races and a KMG Super-Shuttle (never heard of it before, but damn! what a great chain!) for training. Jonathan Acey Albert University of Florida

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Its about time to replace my stock Shimano HG-90 chain.  Has anyone out : there had any experience with the Regina hollow pin chain?  How long has : it lasted? How much weight was actually saved over conventional? : Thanks in advance : Mike Randow —— My opinion is to the contrary of others. I’ve had 4 Regina SL’s in 3 years of racing. Firstly, if you’re a gram-pincher, you save about 100g, which translates to almost .25lbs. Save 100g here, 100g there, and your bike is suddenly a pound or so lighter…very noticable up hills (what we have here in N. Florida). Secondly, I’ve never had a problem with the strength of the Regina, but then again, I’m a typical skinny triathlete (do those exist anymore?) at 150lbs. Anyway, the other poster was right when he said they wouldn’t work with 8spd. Actually, I did get mine to work with my Shim. 8spd rear, but it was so noisy it drove me nuts! Now I use the Regina for races and a KMG Super-Shuttle (never heard of it before, but damn! what a great chain!) for training. Jonathan Acey Albert University of Florida

4 chains in 3 years of racing, seems you go through them like I go through Powerbars, I’m still using the Shimano HG chain that came with my bike two years ago. I weight about 175 lbs. I’d rather have 100gr more to carry and have a reliable chain. I never broke a chain in 5 years of triathlon, and i certainly don’t want that to happen ever, especially in a race or a long training ride when you’re 100km from home! Joachim Heinle

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: : Its about time to replace my stock Shimano HG-90 chain.  Has anyone out : : there had any experience with the Regina hollow pin chain?  How long has : : it lasted? How much weight was actually saved over conventional? : : Thanks in advance : : Mike Randow : —— My opinion is to the contrary of others. I’ve had 4 Regina SL’s : in 3 years of racing. Firstly, if you’re a gram-pincher, you save about : 100g, which translates to almost .25lbs. Save 100g here, 100g there, and : your bike is suddenly a pound or so lighter…very noticable up hills : (what we have here in N. Florida). Secondly, I’ve never had a problem : with the strength of the Regina, but then again, I’m a typical skinny : triathlete (do those exist anymore?) at 150lbs. Anyway, the other poster : was right when he said they wouldn’t work with 8spd. Actually, I did get : mine to work with my Shim. 8spd rear, but it was so noisy it drove me : nuts! Now I use the Regina for races and a KMG Super-Shuttle (never heard : of it before, but damn! what a great chain!) for training. : Jonathan Acey Albert : University of Florida : 4 chains in 3 years of racing, seems you go through them like I go through : Powerbars, I’m still using the Shimano HG chain that came with my bike : two years ago. I weight about 175 lbs. I’d rather have 100gr more to carry : and have a reliable chain. I never broke a chain in 5 years of triathlon, : and i certainly don’t want that to happen ever, especially in a race or a : long training ride when you’re 100km from home! : Joachim Heinle         Actually, I do go through chains quiclky, largely because I never         want to have equipment as an excuse.. "well, if my chain hadn’t         broken…" Preventive maintenance is a lesson I learned during many         a training ride when I started cycling. Also, I have an alloy         freewheel on my disc, It’s good to have new or very clean chains         when using these. Like I said, I’m a gram pincher (and only         150-155lbs…about 145 racing weight). Jonathan Acey Albert University of Florida

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I am looking to buy some Scott RCO aerobars, used of new, at a good price.  Also, I’ve got some Profile ‘Breeze’ aerobars to sell.  THey’re in great shape, only ridden 200 miles.  I want the Scott bars ‘cuz the profile’s are too short for me, and I just found out that it’s messing up my aero position.  Willing to trade Profiles for Scott’s also, if interested.                                           Scott Wilson

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4 chains in 3 years of racing, seems you go through them like I go through Powerbars, I’m still using the Shimano HG chain that came with my bike two years ago. I weight about 175 lbs. I’d rather have 100gr more to carry and have a reliable chain. I never broke a chain in 5 years of triathlon, and i certainly don’t want that to happen ever, especially in a race or a long training ride when you’re 100km from home!

Reliable chain? either you don’t ride very often, or your chain is ready to bust! I change my chain evry 1000 miles. If I don’t my shifting goes to the dogs. Especially with the funky shifting set-ups that triathletes like to use. I find that the best chai ns for price, weight, duablity and compadiblity with all drive trains are either DID super Shift (the makers of shimano hyperglide chains, basically the same except with one side of the chain not camfered- weight savings, no loss in performance) and Sedis – I perfer Sedis because i have had no problems with them at all even in the rigors of new england ‘cross an dthe muddy mountian biking, if these chains can hold up in that type of conditions than I am sure than can hold up to any conditins! they also don’ t have those stupid replacable link pins shimano uses! As for regina go for it, everything they make is relable especially there freewheels (which by the way are incredibly light an dreally sweet!) for the money you are going to pay for a regina chain you are going to get a good chain, that is why they are so expensive-they have to be to make them light, and strong…also dont use those alloy derailier pullies, they are hevier, cause more friction, an d hinder shifter. Shimano Dura-Ace pullies are much bett er… they cost less than a regina chain, and wont put any unnecisary grinding onto a chain… look at the pro peleton, what do they use, especilly watch tony romiger, he usese alot of the same equipment trialthetes like, and he has to rid ehisbike hard da y, after day in the tours, and classics of europe. they know what works and what doesn’t! —ARR—

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Question:

[....] Perhaps no-one told the commentator about drafting.  It was allowed in this race, but when McMartin and Dobson(?) were at the front, the commentator was going on about how they were battling for the lead.  It looked alot like a 2 man PACELINE to me (can u have that with 2 people?)

[....] Actually, I was amazed at what a poor job the two leaders did of drafting on the bike leg.  They left large gaps (often 3 or 4 feet) and frequently were not drafting at all.  That put them at a disadvantage because one of the chase groups ran a fairly creditable paceline.  One of the leaders ended up getting caught by some of the chasers on the run.  A bigger gap from the bike leg could have saved him. I don’t like drafting in a tri, but if you’re going to do it, do it well. Despite my above comments, I’m glad that triathlon is getting coverage. It’s better than the 5 lines given to the TdF on Sportsdesk every night

I agree. Dave LaPorte U. of Minn.

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I was on this morning and saw two postings of the ITU World Cup results from Whistler and now they are gone. Can people pull things off of this newsgroup at will? Or off into cyberspace? Just wondering?

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I was on this morning and saw two postings of the ITU World Cup results from Whistler and now they are gone. Can people pull things off of this newsgroup at will? Or off into cyberspace? Just wondering?

Well, I just watched this on TV and wasn’t all that impressed.  The commentators insisted on talking in miles (1mi,25mi,6mi) – close, but no cigar. Perhaps no-one told the commentator about drafting.  It was allowed in this race, but when McMartin and Dobson(?) were at the front, the commentator was going on about how they were battling for the lead.  It looked alot like a 2 man PACELINE to me (can u have that with 2 people?) The Australian co-star was OK, but only spoke when spoken to.  One thing that bothered me was when he said, in comparison to IM, that this was really just a sprint.  I’m not sure this is a great thing to promote the sport to newbies like myself.  The winners were out there for just under 2 hours – 15 minutes quicker than the top runners finish a marathon- but no-one would call that a sprint, even in comparison to an ultra. All I really remember of the results was that Andrew McMartin was 1st and Frank Clarke second (yeah, Canada!)  I think Wes Dobson(?) was 5th. He said he got a little dehydrated on the run. Despite my above comments, I’m glad that triathlon is getting coverage. It’s better than the 5 lines given to the TdF on Sportsdesk every night Sean.

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I was on this morning and saw two postings of the ITU World Cup results from Whistler and now they are gone. Can people pull things off of this newsgroup at will? Or off into cyberspace? Just wondering? Well, I just watched this on TV and wasn’t all that impressed.  The commentators insisted on talking in miles (1mi,25mi,6mi) – close, but no cigar.

Speaking as a semi-retired beer-guzzling, arm-chair quarterback, I wonder if CBS did this for the beer-guzzling, arm-chair quarterback crowd who still isn’t able to comprehend or relate to the metric system. However, I thought the coverage was better than average– especially better than the stuff ESPN did last year. Perhaps no-one told the commentator about drafting.  It was allowed in this race, but when McMartin and Dobson(?) were at the front, the commentator was going on about how they were battling for the lead.  It looked alot like a 2 man PACELINE to me (can u have that with 2 people?)

This race was the first drafting legal, ITU race I was able to catch.  It became pretty clear that the pros still are learning the tactics of a draft legal race.   I expected to see a lot of tight, fast-moving (lead changing) pace lines.  I guess this is probably due to aerobars… SZAG: maybe you could bring this up to the ITU…  Make some sort of a brake on the end of the aerobars mandatory for drafting legal races.  This would increase safety and really tighten up the pace lines.   The Australian co-star was OK, but only spoke when spoken to.  

I was pleasantly surprised with Miles commentary and was glad to see it. The winners were out there for just under 2 hours – 15 minutes quicker than the top runners finish a marathon- but no-one would call that a sprint, even in comparison to an ultra.

Your right, but maybe from a pro’s perspective this is sort of a sprint… I was surprised to find myself liking the drafting legal format.  I think it would be fun to try.  However, we need to keep both formats around and only have a few, field-size limited, draft-legal races.    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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[....] was going on about how they were battling for the lead.  It looked alot like a 2 man PACELINE to me (can u have that with 2 people?) [....] Actually, I was amazed at what a poor job the two leaders did of drafting on the bike leg.  They left large gaps (often 3 or 4 feet) and frequently were not drafting at all.  

This was also my observation, and I just gave the pros some benefit of the doubt by saying that they just weren’t used to this type of race strategy yet…  My first reaction was that these guys (leaders) just wanted to be out front so they could "beat their chests" so to speak and all mental aspects of drafting and strategy seemed to play a secondary role. That put them at a disadvantage because one of the chase groups ran a fairly creditable paceline.  

Of course, this one wasn’t very organized either…  I remember seeing guys sprinting out from the middle of the paceline at times which disrupts the entire flow…      W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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