Question:

Okay … After having spectated Boston (mile 16, where you can see the pain start to set in … and Jennifer and Oleg,  next time, please wear a blinking yellow sign so I can put a face to the words), the niggling thought of qualifying sets in again. I ran my first marathon last year in an attempt to qualify, and came up on the short end (Bay State, blistering hot, 3:28, novice mistakes – probably not enough hydration). In retrospect, I’m glad I did it – but I have to say that it diminished a lot of the contentment that I previously had with running. When running becomes more like drudgery than a healthy battle between mind and body, it seems time to question the method. Question … how many of you have run a decent marathon on 30-40 miles a week with cross-training in biking or swimming, and do any of you feel that cross-training helped more than specificity? I realize that to ultimately achieve the best time, specifity is probably the answer – but, I’m also willing to bet that cross-training reduces the chance of injury, and (for those non-running fanatics) keeps the running spirit more fulfilled. My best 10k time (38:57) was run on about 20-25 miles a week with a reasonable amount of biking added (of course, it was a perfectly cool racing day too). Ultimately, I would hope to run competitively with biking 100+ a week (bike commuting and one weekend day), miscellaneous added cross-training as available (nordic trak or swimming), and 30-40 miles a week (5 miles fast, two 5-7’s at marathon tempo or slightly faster, and 10-20 mile long run once a week … probably no speed work). Any input? GEO in rainy southern NH.

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Ultimately, I would hope to run competitively with biking 100+ a week (bike commuting and one weekend day), miscellaneous added cross-training as available (nordic trak or swimming), and 30-40 miles a week (5 miles fast, two 5-7’s at marathon tempo or slightly faster, and 10-20 mile long run once a week … probably no speed work). Any input?

Like you say, specificity counts. If your concern is running the absolute fastest marathon you can, then you need to train exclusively for that. Or if not exclusively, then primarily, which would mean cutting back on your biking significantly. But you don’t sound like you want to do that (no problem, that’s why I like cross-training.) I’d suggest following your desired x-training program until about two months before your target marathon and then cut back on the biking and concentrate on running. Just don’t do it too abruptly and hurt yourself. Reduce one in proportion to increasing the other. BTW, how far off are you from your needed qualifying time? Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

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Thanks for the response, Mike, and for the advice. Just out of curiosity, are you suggesting 2 months pre-2-3 week taper, or essentially 5 weeks of increasing mileage (to say, max of 50) followed by a taper to result in a 2 month window? In the over-35 crowd, so a 3:15:59 would do it … coming up short was a little discouraging, even though it was a respectable first. Haven’t run enough of them to take the end result with a grain of salt … and had never been in a race that you look back over the past X months of your life and say "all that hard work for coming up short (not to mention ending up with UGLY feet)". Had pretty bad blisters (wrong sock choice, no vaseline), and was HOT (75-80 at the finish … yes, not much for a Southerner like you, but for a New Englander expecting a  50 degree fall day – quite unpleasant). I’m guessing that with SERIOUS training (based on race pace calculator and general placement in local road races), I’d be capable of a 3:00 or 3:05 in ideal conditions, so the 3:16 would seem realistic on a good race day with cross-training. GEO

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Question … how many of you have run a decent marathon on 30-40 miles a week with cross-training in biking or swimming,

I did 3:39 on something like 20-25 miles a week with 90 minutes of biking per week … usually 3 sessions of 30 minutes.  A think a nice walk once a week helps … and I think I got a lot out of the biking.  Roy

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Thanks for the response, Mike, and for the advice. Just out of curiosity, are you suggesting 2 months pre-2-3 week taper, or essentially 5 weeks of increasing mileage (to say, max of 50) followed by a taper to result in a 2 month window?

Hmm, I posted a response from home of Friday, but it didn’t appear. I meant two months, then the taper. The two months was rather arbitrary – three months might be better. The main idea was to have enough time to wean yourself from biking a lot to running a lot – without doing it too fast. I’m guessing that with SERIOUS training (based on race pace calculator and general placement in local road races), I’d be capable of a 3:00 or 3:05 in ideal conditions, so the 3:16 would seem realistic on a good race day with cross-training. GEO

I’d say you have it in you. The first ‘thon is always a learning experience. You never really know what it’s going to feel like. Given better conditions,  and better knowledge of the distance, you’ll get it. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

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To my astonishment, I did one of my best marathons (Hartford 3:11) 2 weeks after an Ironman distance triathlon (Martha

Question:

   Easton Full aero ( ie  Felt )   Triathlon frame   650 c wheels  carbon aero Profile fork   ultegra 8 speed  bar end shifters on scott aero bars   no pedals   brand new   never been ridden    valued       $2000.00  CAN   will sell for   $1200.00 CAN with full warranty  ( $800.00 US )                           steve

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<warning on full warranty? from who? from what company? I have a list of 4 people who have bought bikes from you over the internet  (all of whom contacted me with their troubles)  and paid their deposit and haven’t gotten the orders in over a year. Then your business went bankrupt. Don’t buy form this guy unless it’s at least COD and then open and check your delivery before accepting it. <warning off cheers -jason ps- we’ve been through the high velocity story on this news group before and rick d (not from the weekly top 40) got mad cause i mentioned the name of the owner. this is why. he’s back and i don’t want people to get riped off.    Easton Full aero ( ie  Felt )   Triathlon frame   650 c wheels  carbon aero Profile fork   ultegra 8 speed  bar end shifters on scott aero bars   no pedals   brand new   never been ridden    valued       $2000.00  CAN   will sell for   $1200.00 CAN with full warranty  ( $800.00 US )                           steve

– Jason MacDonald

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Question:

 Anyways what is pool ettiqute for something like that?

I agree with the suggestion to ask the person you wish to share a lane with first before jumping in.  In the pool I use, the etiquette for lane sharing is to simply split the lane rather than swimming on the right and having to deal with passing.  I also think it is common courtesy to ask to share a lane before jumping in.  It does piss me off to be booking along in my lane and swim headlong into some Bozo who decides to just jump in without letting me know he’s there and expecting me to get out of his way.  Common courtesy and common sense should make the situation smooth.   Marty

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I would say that when swimming in a designated LANE, that circle swimming is the best way to go when there are more than 2 swimmers in the lane.  If there are only two, then splitting the lane is best to avoid problems like Marty described (passing, etc.) However, in my experience with larger open areas of the pool where there are NO lane lines, circle swimming is asking for trouble. You can usually fit 3 people in the same space of a single lane without having to make people circle swim. Whether they don’t install lane lines in this area for that reason or some other reason, I don’t know. Just a couple of cents to add to the ante…. Craig – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question. I was swimming today and it was crowded. I swim in a public pool, where about half the pool is marked with floating lane dividers in  lanes and the other half is not.People swim in both sections. All along the entire bottom of the pool there are the black arrows you swim along. I was always taught to swim to the right of them and in a circle.   Anyways I am swimming in the area without floating markers and this lady is kick boarding near by. I am trying to swim around the markers on the bottom and she swims into my head with her kickboard and then smacks me with it. I stood up and she starts yelling, " im not going to swim around you if you cant swim in a straight line." I was so shocked she would hit me in the head with her kickboard I didnt say a word, and I was so angry I just left cause I couldnt think straight after that.   Anyways what is pool ettiqute for something like that? I thought I was doing what I should have and that no matter what she had her head up and could see what was in front of her and she shouldnt have hit me. Is that wrong? What would you do, should I have complained to the lifeguard? thanks, al marvelli Check out: http://members.aol.com/KybrSose/giantstridePage1.html

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Ditto. At my club, we also have to deal with the "walkers", you know, the type who get into a lane and walk up and down the lane, then they stand at the end of the lane, for oh, about 20 minutes, just standing there, then they walk up the lane again. I think they walk because they don’t want to get their hairdoos wet (water??? in a swimming pool???). Of course they walk straight up the middle of the lane. This gets particularly frustrating in the hour right before the Masters’ swim program. You know, you want to get in the lanes early to warm up, add some yardage and the walkers are there. Arrgh! One of these days, I’m going to get in one of those lanes and start swimming and give them a big splash with my turn at the wall. Maybe then they will get the message. [ I know, I know, not very polite, but why can't they go walk outside] Just my whine for the day. Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another lane? Another time of day?.  I have, also, ended up with the housewives  in an out of town pool, who invariably take up more of a lane than serious, considerate, competitive swimmers. If you must go at that time of day, "interview" each lane member;  find out who is at your level of ability. Sometimes introducing yourself and ‘asking’ if you may share "their" lane, makes all the difference !

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I say, next time just plow right over the ol’ broad, and give her a good firm kick in the forehead just for good measure as you go by.  It’s good practice for those mass swim starts! ** Notice to those humor impaired – this is sarcasm, and is not to be taken as anything but an example of a very dark sense of humor**

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Marvelous thread ! This one is really fun ! <splash, splash kick

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| I have a question. I was swimming today and it was crowded. I swim in a public | pool, where about half the pool is marked with floating lane dividers in  lanes | and the other half is not.People swim in both sections. All along the entire | bottom of the pool there are the black arrows you swim along. I was always | taught to swim to the right of them and in a circle. |   |   Anyways I am swimming in the area without floating markers and this lady is | kick boarding near by. I am trying to swim around the markers on the bottom and | she swims into my head with her kickboard and then smacks me with it. I stood | up and she starts yelling, " im not going to swim around you if you cant swim | in a straight line." I was so shocked she would hit me in the head with her | kickboard I didnt say a word, and I was so angry I just left cause I couldnt | think straight after that.   | |   Anyways what is pool ettiqute for something like that? I thought I was doing | what I should have and that no matter what she had her head up and could see | what was in front of her and she shouldnt have hit me. Is that wrong? What | would you do, should I have complained to the lifeguard?   | I would think you should have complained to the pool management, hopefully having the ignoramus scolded or thrown out, and asked them about etiquette.                                         rich

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I had to laugh at this. I know it probably wasn’t funny at the time, but I can just picture it. Anyway, being a swimmer for 18 or so years now, I have seen places where people swim to the right, and places where people swim to the left, I guess you just have to whatch what is happening at that pool. As for those "get it your way" types, well, that is the main reason I will only train with a squad. I just can’t train with these thoughtless people who have no idea what is going on around them. No matter what, there always seems to be one person doing slow breatstroke up the centre of the lane. In fact, they often seem to wait until it looks like someone is swimming seriously, and then start in that lane. Anyway, enough of a winge, I would just try your best to find a lane with the least people and/or the peopl that look like they are actually swimming. BTW – these are probably the same people that yell at you for taking up all that space on the road riding your bike! -Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question. I was swimming today and it was crowded. I swim in a public pool, where about half the pool is marked with floating lane dividers in  lanes and the other half is not.People swim in both sections. All along the entire bottom of the pool there are the black arrows you swim along. I was always taught to swim to the right of them and in a circle.   Anyways I am swimming in the area without floating markers and this lady is kick boarding near by. I am trying to swim around the markers on the bottom and she swims into my head with her kickboard and then smacks me with it. I stood up and she starts yelling, " im not going to swim around you if you cant swim in a straight line." I was so shocked she would hit me in the head with her kickboard I didnt say a word, and I was so angry I just left cause I couldnt think straight after that.   Anyways what is pool ettiqute for something like that? I thought I was doing what I should have and that no matter what she had her head up and could see what was in front of her and she shouldnt have hit me. Is that wrong? What would you do, should I have complained to the lifeguard? thanks, al marvelli Check out: http://members.aol.com/KybrSose/giantstridePage1.html

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I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but posts (in this thread and my related Housewives/Hairdo’s line) are running about 2-to-1 against what I’ll call the "apparently clueless" swimmers.  The serious-competitive-swimmer sentiment has been expressed compellingly and, of course, in a way that made me smile, by Tri-Baby.  I just want to offer a couple more words on behalf of the apparently clueless.  My basic point is that I think we need to make sure we distinguish between the legitimate Wicked Clueless Horde — a tiny group, I think — and the huge Genuinely Doing Their Best Group.  Too often, folks in the latter category are lumped with those in the former.  I think it’s inconsistent with RST karma not to try our best to keep the groups separate. usually seeding myself properly in the Fast lane at my pool, a pool where the people in the Slow lane are pretty much going backwards.  (More about my pool — "Fast" includes people doing sprints and people swimming fast 1500s.  The Medium lane is for people doing 25 meters in 60 seconds or so, and Slow, as I said earlier, is basically for those in reverse.  This is not an easy situation for anyone.)  I taught swimming for a number of years — kids, adults, disabled people — and I worked as a lifeguard at pools that had very mixed-ability populations.  Old people, kids, competitive swimmers. Interestingly, I spend way too much time filled with rage at car drivers when I’m on my bike or running or walking around town.  For some reason (maybe because I’m actually one of the Clueless Horde . . .?) I’m a pretty serene swimmer.  I get knocked around a bit in the water, sure, but then I just smile and go on. First, I do think a lot of the problems we’re talking about would be solved if lifeguards would take more responsibility for managing lane use.  I used to do it — I was a kid and kind of got off on the power thing, probably — and I was often told by my aquatics manager how much it was appreciated by the swimmers.  Obviously, lifeguards have to pay attention to the pool and can’t spend all their time monitoring swim speed, but most lifeguards I see seem to have plenty of time available to help manage lane use.  They should do it. Second, rude and clueless people don’t deserve any quarter.  They get none from me, and I’m not suggesting that anyone else give them special etiquette passes. But, but, but . . .  What I wish some of us would consider is our quick attribution of bad motives, meanness, willful ignorance and thoughtless self-centeredness to the "apparently clueless."  Many of the disturbing behaviors Tricia and others have mentioned — definitely not all of them — have benign explanations.  New swimmers and old old people and other "apparently clueless" types can’t always swim at constant speeds the way we can.  They can’t control every frog kick or backstroke the way we can.  They suddenly swallow water and thrash.  They can only get their hair done on Mondays and only swim on Tuesdays.  They can’t wear goggles because of eye or skin problems.  They swim at a rate of 30 seconds per 25 meters but can’t use the Medium lane without running over 3 swimmers every two laps. I’m not saying these people don’t have a responsibility to stay out of the Fast lane or a responsibility not to hurt other swimmers.  But I think we can respond better to them than we do.  Tricia’s post had a road rage element to it that I recognize from incidents I’ve seen at my own pool (and, interestingly, from my own reaction to cars that turn in front of me when I’m on my bike or on foot!). Maybe we should talk more to the clueless.  People don’t think to talk at pools. (Digression:  I read an excellent short story a few years ago that explored the odd relationship you develop with people you see at the pool and in the shower but never talk to.  Anyone else remember it?)  These aren’t evil people, by and large.  They’re not necessarily the people who make right turns on red without stopping for pedestrians and runners.  Those people are wicked.  Some of these people, yeah, they need a good talking to.  But I really think most are trying as hard as they can to stay out of our way, swim compactly and at a constant speed and get some exercise.  They don’t always manage to do it right.  We can help clue them in, and think we’ll have more success if we lose the attitude that these people don’t deserve to share our space. Now I’ve spent too much time here and I *can’t* go to the pool! Have a good weekend, all.                               — Marc

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We have one fellow here who does this ugly bastardized form of backstroke wherein both arms, spread wide to encompass the world, are thrown backward in unison, while his legs trail behind executing a spastic frog kick. Ugly to watch, and even uglier to come in contact with.

A guy named Dave Costill does backstroke that way.  In 1997, he did a 2:30.3 200yd backstroke like that.  At age 61.  He probably doesn’t do it in a lane with other circle swimmers, though.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder… Ken "look him up on the AltaVista" Lehner

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Maybe I’m the only one out here who swims in a pool where lane sharing isn’t done? …

Actually, at the pool here at UAB circle swimming is prohibited and no more than 2 people per lane are allowed. (Although they’ll let more than 2 people aquajog in the deep end of a lane, the need for that is infrequent.) Fortunately, the pool is open enough to spread the "swimming crowd" out and so it is very, very rare that someone has to wait for a spot to open up. I thought about bringing this up earlier in the thread, but don’t assume that circle swimming is allowed when you go to a new pool.   — Chuck    Department of Biology,  University of Alabama at Birmingham             http://www.uab.edu/uabbio/amsler.htm

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Maybe I’m the only one out here who swims in a pool where lane sharing isn’t done? … Actually, at the pool here at UAB circle swimming is prohibited and no more than 2 people per lane are allowed.

This always blows my mind.  But then that’s probably from the years and years of various swim teams.  4 or 5 people in a lane is pretty normal, and I’ve been sandwiched into as many as 10 or more in a lane (25 yd pool.  10 is no problem in a 50m pool) It is actually hard sometimes to not circle swim.  You become used to going into your flip turn, and coming out with a slight push off to the other side of the lane.  Usually during taper for the big end of season meet our coach would do turn drills, and force us to swim straight down the middle, flip, and come out straight again.  It would really piss him off to see you circle swimming in a meet.  (Every little bit of distance counts!) Now swimming right next to lane line to draft off the other team’s swimmer is a different story, but then we don’t want to get into a drafting argument, now do we? ; Eric

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Strangely enough I think it’s related to the side of the road that the country drives on… don’t ask me why it’s got anything to do with swimming, just a correlation I’ve noticed. Similarly walking on the footpath — people seem to share a footpath in the same way that they do their roads. I’ve noticed that visitors and/or immigrants from right-hand-drive countries continue to walk on the right-hand half of the footpath, despite the fact that they are walking into everyone else… — MB. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – they need to have their own lane(s) as they swim in the opposite direction to us (we swim on the left side of the lane down here). — MB. is this due to the coriolis effect?  i assume that swimming counterclockwise in the southern hemisphere is faster than swimming clockwise because of this… will

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 Anyways I am swimming in the area without floating markers and this lady is kick boarding near by. I am trying to swim around the markers on the bottom and she swims into my head with her kickboard and then smacks me with it. I stood up and she starts yelling, " im not going to swim around you if you cant swim in a straight line." I was so shocked she would hit me in the head with her kickboard I didnt say a word, and I was so angry I just left cause I couldnt think straight after that.    Anyways what is pool ettiqute for something like that? I thought I was doing what I should have and that no matter what she had her head up and could see what was in front of her and she shouldnt have hit me. Is that wrong? What would you do, should I have complained to the lifeguard?  

Speaking as a lifeguard, I have dealt with this before. We have the "golden oldies" as we call them, people who have been members for years if not decades (pool was built in 1947). These people have acquired a sense of ownership with the pool. I simply inform them that they are mistaken and that it is MY pool when I am working, and if they don’t obey the rules, I will ask them to leave. Since I am not the typical snot-nosed teenage lifeguard (being 34), they listen to me. As far as being whacked by the board weilding woman, if I had seen that while guarding, she would be looking for a membership elsewhere.

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The Medium lane is for people doing 25 meters in 60 seconds or so, and Slow, as I said earlier, is basically for those in reverse.

Holy cow! At your pool, *I* would be in the fast lane. That’s the scariest thing I’ve every heard! No wonder people kick each other in the face. But, but, but . . .  What I wish some of us would consider is our quick attribution of bad motives, meanness, willful ignorance and thoughtless self-centeredness to the "apparently clueless."  Many of the disturbing behaviors Tricia and others have mentioned — definitely not all of them — have benign explanations.

Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained with stupidity. Rick "Words to live by" Denney

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This may sound a bit goody goody two shoes (as they say or used to) but there is not one single swimmer, walker, elementary backstroker, or even wall-holder-upper whose purpose in the pool is even a tiny bit less important than mine.  I swim at a time restricted to the old, the invalid, the injured, etc.  Those less able than I would prefer not to be in my lane, but sometimes there is no other place.  I reassure them that it will be okay and I try to be as considerate of them as they always are of me.  If a housewife in a flowered cap wants to get out of the house and socialize at the end of the pool and walk a bit for some exercise, I think that’s a good enough reason to be there. There’s nothing about swim training for triathlon that gives my use of the pool some special significance. I limit butterfly to one-arm drills until they’re gone, but yes I do all those other terrible strokes, too – even elementary backstroke. Ruth Kazez

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She was obviously totally wrong, however if you’re outside the lane dividers, then you’re sorta asking for it — it’s a jungle out there in the un-laned world. Even in the lanes you gotta watch it, but most people sharing lanes seem to know the rules. At my local pool (SIAC – Homebush) I have the luxury of two pools. The floral-cap set use the so-called "training pool" and the main pool (we are talking the Sydney Olympics site here) is fully laned and a sign on the pool entrance says lap swimming only. The lanes are all clearly marked with the expected speed and/or stroke (eg Fast, Med, Slow, Breastroke etc) — really neat — and everyone know the rules — except… when a swim squad turns up from somewhere in Europe — they need to have their own lane(s) as they swim in the opposite direction to us (we swim on the left side of the lane down here). — MB.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a question. I was swimming today and it was crowded. I swim in a public pool, where about half the pool is marked with floating lane dividers in  lanes and the other half is not.People swim in both sections. All along the entire bottom of the pool there are the black arrows you swim along. I was always taught to swim to the right of them and in a circle.  Anyways I am swimming in the area without floating markers and this lady is kick boarding near by. I am trying to swim around the markers on the bottom and she swims into my head with her kickboard and then smacks me with it. I stood up and she starts yelling, " im not going to swim around you if you cant swim in a straight line." I was so shocked she would hit me in the head with her kickboard I didnt say a word, and I was so angry I just left cause I couldnt think straight after that.  Anyways what is pool ettiqute for something like that? I thought I was doing what I should have and that no matter what she had her head up and could see what was in front of her and she shouldnt have hit me. Is that wrong? What would you do, should I have complained to the lifeguard? thanks, al marvelli Check out: http://members.aol.com/KybrSose/giantstridePage1.html

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Maybe I’m the only one out here who swims in a pool where lane sharing isn’t done? The small pool at our health club has two designated lap lanes, but no one EVER shares a lane. I don’t know why, other than the fact that there are few "serious" swimmers. Mike "Frankly, I’d be worried about sharing a lane with most of them" Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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All good points, Tricia. The sad thing of course, is that only fairly serious swimmers are reading this thread. Your comments and the post that started this thread ought to be posted on the wall at every swim center in the country. Sure, let’s applaud beginners, seniors  and other folks for making the attempt to get some exercise by swimming, no matter their ability level. But shame on the pool directors and life guards for not doiing their jobs and monitoring the lanes during lap swimming. Lanes should be posted. Beginners should stick to the slow lanes, and walkers should not be in lap lanes, period. Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As for those "get it your way" types, well, that is the main reason I will only train with a squad. I just can’t train with these thoughtless people who have no idea what is going on around them. No matter what, there always seems to be one person doing slow breatstroke up the centre of the lane. In fact, they often seem to wait until it looks like someone is swimming seriously, and then start in that lane. That’s the key—these people are *thoughtless*.  "Clueless" and "Oblivious" are other apt adjectives.  And they render me incredulous. How is it possible to be so self-absorbed and so devoid of common sense? How much effort does it take to assess a situation like a swim lane full of fellow swimmers and then tailor your actions to cause the least disruption possible to everyone’s experience? WARNING:  PURE WINGE AHEAD.  Read at your own peril.  Disclaimers apply. The ones who really blow my mind are the folks who plant themselves in a lane that is clearly too fast for them, then refuse to get out of the way of a faster swimmer coming up behind.  You can be right on their feet when they hit the wall, but instead of thoughtfully pulling over to the side at the wall and waiting for you to flip and go past them, they continue on their merry way, making their turn and ignoring your presence virtually on top of them.  Then, at the odd moment when they do choose to stop at the wall, they never fail to remain in the middle of the wall rather than making an effort to scrunch up as far to the side as possible to get out of the way of approaching swimmers. AAARGH. Then there are the backstroke boobs who haven’t a clue about doing backstroke correctly, nor are they aware that their wide-armed flailing poses a serious threat to the well-being of those sharing their lane (not to mention those in adjacent lanes).  Right alongside them go the breast stroke bobos who fail to see the wisdom of curtailing their kick when another swimmer passes.  Ouch! We have one fellow here who does this ugly bastardized form of backstroke wherein both arms, spread wide to encompass the world, are thrown backward in unison, while his legs trail behind executing a spastic frog kick. Ugly to watch, and even uglier to come in contact with. The stubbornly blind swimmers baffle me.  There’s one woman at the pool I frequent most often on campus who refuses to wear goggles, for whatever reason, but this means that she always swims with her eyes closed.  You can imagine the problems that this causes.  Even some who wear goggles seem to swim with their eyes closed.  I’ve actually been punched in the nose by some idiot who couldn’t be bothered to pay attention to what was going on in the lane. There are a handful of people you see regularly at the pool who always fill your heart with dread.  Blind Lady, Backstroke Man, Scuba Fin Idiot, Clueless Slow Swimmer, and that guy who swims with that ridiculous, enormous board that acts as a single fin connected to both feet (there oughta be a law about using those things in a shared lane–they’re lethal!). Anyway, enough of a winge, I would just try your best to find a lane with the least people and/or the people that look like they are actually swimming. Easier said than done.  Swim space is at a premium.  Even if you choose a brilliant lane initially, there’s no guarantee that it won’t be invaded sometime in the course of your workout by one of the Clueless Horde. Yeah, I know, this was a completely unproductive bitch-fest on my part, for which I apologize.  But I have to say, after reading the defenses posted of the part-time and recreational swimmers ("Housewives and Hairdos"), I still have to say that there is no defense for self-centered, thoughtless behaviour. I don’t care how experienced or inexperienced a swimmer you are, how fast or slow you are, or how regularly you swim.  Never mind specific rules of pool etiquette; how hard is it to exercise your brain enough to think, "Hmmm, how do my actions affect other people around me?  Am I getting in someone’s way?  How can I best avoid disrupting other people’s workouts?" It doesn’t take much, folks.  You could say it’s just common sense, but y’know, the older I get, the more I realize that the expression "common sense" is a total misnomer. END OF WINGE. — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie

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they need to have their own lane(s) as they swim in the opposite direction to us (we swim on the left side of the lane down here). — MB.

is this due to the coriolis effect?  i assume that swimming counterclockwise in the southern hemisphere is faster than swimming clockwise because of this… will

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As for those "get it your way" types, well, that is the main reason I will only train with a squad. I just can’t train with these thoughtless people who have no idea what is going on around them. No matter what, there always seems to be one person doing slow breatstroke up the centre of the lane. In fact, they often seem to wait until it looks like someone is swimming seriously, and then start in that lane.

That’s the key—these people are *thoughtless*.  "Clueless" and "Oblivious" are other apt adjectives.  And they render me incredulous. How is it possible to be so self-absorbed and so devoid of common sense? How much effort does it take to assess a situation like a swim lane full of fellow swimmers and then tailor your actions to cause the least disruption possible to everyone’s experience? WARNING:  PURE WINGE AHEAD.  Read at your own peril.  Disclaimers apply. The ones who really blow my mind are the folks who plant themselves in a lane that is clearly too fast for them, then refuse to get out of the way of a faster swimmer coming up behind.  You can be right on their feet when they hit the wall, but instead of thoughtfully pulling over to the side at the wall and waiting for you to flip and go past them, they continue on their merry way, making their turn and ignoring your presence virtually on top of them.  Then, at the odd moment when they do choose to stop at the wall, they never fail to remain in the middle of the wall rather than making an effort to scrunch up as far to the side as possible to get out of the way of approaching swimmers. AAARGH. Then there are the backstroke boobs who haven’t a clue about doing backstroke correctly, nor are they aware that their wide-armed flailing poses a serious threat to the well-being of those sharing their lane (not to mention those in adjacent lanes).  Right alongside them go the breast stroke bobos who fail to see the wisdom of curtailing their kick when another swimmer passes.  Ouch! We have one fellow here who does this ugly bastardized form of backstroke wherein both arms, spread wide to encompass the world, are thrown backward in unison, while his legs trail behind executing a spastic frog kick. Ugly to watch, and even uglier to come in contact with. The stubbornly blind swimmers baffle me.  There’s one woman at the pool I frequent most often on campus who refuses to wear goggles, for whatever reason, but this means that she always swims with her eyes closed.  You can imagine the problems that this causes.  Even some who wear goggles seem to swim with their eyes closed.  I’ve actually been punched in the nose by some idiot who couldn’t be bothered to pay attention to what was going on in the lane. There are a handful of people you see regularly at the pool who always fill your heart with dread.  Blind Lady, Backstroke Man, Scuba Fin Idiot, Clueless Slow Swimmer, and that guy who swims with that ridiculous, enormous board that acts as a single fin connected to both feet (there oughta be a law about using those things in a shared lane–they’re lethal!). Anyway, enough of a winge, I would just try your best to find a lane with the least people and/or the people that look like they are actually swimming.

Easier said than done.  Swim space is at a premium.  Even if you choose a brilliant lane initially, there’s no guarantee that it won’t be invaded sometime in the course of your workout by one of the Clueless Horde. Yeah, I know, this was a completely unproductive bitch-fest on my part, for which I apologize.  But I have to say, after reading the defenses posted of the part-time and recreational swimmers ("Housewives and Hairdos"), I still have to say that there is no defense for self-centered, thoughtless behaviour.   I don’t care how experienced or inexperienced a swimmer you are, how fast or slow you are, or how regularly you swim.  Never mind specific rules of pool etiquette; how hard is it to exercise your brain enough to think, "Hmmm, how do my actions affect other people around me?  Am I getting in someone’s way?  How can I best avoid disrupting other people’s workouts?" It doesn’t take much, folks.  You could say it’s just common sense, but y’know, the older I get, the more I realize that the expression "common sense" is a total misnomer. END OF WINGE. — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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-snip- We have the lane jumping lady. She comes to the side and just hops right in. on top of you if you’re making a turn or in front, right next to you and then of course it’s your fault for not watching where you’re going. My advice, stick to the lanes if you have the option. Oh and smile, pisses them off big time. Al Kormesser

Where I swim we have names for chronic offenders:  - Road Block Boy (aka RBB) and RBB2 (aka Road Block Man since he is older ) – we only have 2 lane line dividing our 6 lane pool, so the faster swimmers swim in the middle (designated for "Interval" workouts) – usually going up the right lane and back the left. There’s plenty of room for everyone to pass since 2 lanes are being used. Any way the RBBs somehow manage to take up more space and block us and the turns are particularly hairy!  They don’t angle the turns – they swim to the end then kind of slide across the entire wall thus blocking anyone who is attempting to pass them on the turn. – Snorkel Man – named for obvious reasons.  He only appears from time to time but will occassionally turn up in the middle of one of our interval workouts and just do continuous lap swimming without any concern that he is in the middle of 9 swimmers doing the same work out. (The next lane over is designated for "Continuous" swimming, so he either has trouble reading or likes to mix things up in the "Interval" lane). – The Silver Bullet – wears a flesh colored old nylon bathing suit that invariably shows his butt crack and a silver swim cap.  He stares at the women swimmers all the time and will, without any warning whatsoever, shoot across our lane (from the continuous swimming lane over to the leisure lane) not worried about whether any one happens to be swimming by at that moment. I have been hit and there have been many close calls! These are just a few of the beloved characters at our pool. Recently a man forced me purposely into the lane line, kicked extra hard as to splash me in the face when I was using the kickboard and then told me I was swimming wrong. He was of the RBB variety and had no clue how to approach the wall.  Then he told me I didn’t know the proper way to circle swim!!! Let’s see, he is an occassional recreational swimmer and I’ve been swimming competitively for well over 20 years and coaching for 9 years, but yeah, he is the expert.  This interaction just about killed me!  He went off on me, and promised "I’ll be back!" I haven’t seen him again but I think I’ll call him Arnie or the Terminator. -hug

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: what is pool ettiqute for something like that? – First suggestion is to do what was already mentioned, talk to

     swimmers before getting in the lane.  Make sure everyone is on      the same page.  As is the case in most grop situations, good      communication is the cornerstone to successfull results.      Also, tapping the feet is another way of telling a lap swimmer      you want to pass.  This however, is not something novice lap      swimmers would know.  So chances are it would only piss the      unaware off.  Home Page: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~twm/TTH.html

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Another lane? Another time of day?.  I have, also, ended up with the housewives  in an out of town pool, who invariably take up more of a lane than serious, considerate, competitive swimmers. If you must go at that time of day, "interview" each lane member;  find out who is at your level of ability. Sometimes introducing yourself and ‘asking’ if you may share "their" lane, makes all the difference !

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I am trying to swim around the markers on the bottom and she swims into my head with her kickboard and then smacks me with it. I stood up and she starts yelling, " im not going to swim around you if you cant swim in a straight line."

You were right, she was wrong. And she had absolutely no justification to strike you. One should only strike another for self preservation. I assume you did not threaten her life. Unfortunately you will always find these clueless people, who of course already know all there is to know in the universe ( ya right ! ). We have the lane jumping lady. She comes to the side and just hops right in. on top of you if you’re making a turn or in front, right next to you and then of course it’s your fault for not watching where you’re going. My advice, stick to the lanes if you have the option. Oh and smile, pisses them off big time. Al Kormesser

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I have a question. I was swimming today and it was crowded. I swim in a public pool, where about half the pool is marked with floating lane dividers in  lanes and the other half is not.People swim in both sections. All along the entire bottom of the pool there are the black arrows you swim along. I was always taught to swim to the right of them and in a circle.   Anyways I am swimming in the area without floating markers and this lady is kick boarding near by. I am trying to swim around the markers on the bottom and she swims into my head with her kickboard and then smacks me with it. I stood up and she starts yelling, " im not going to swim around you if you cant swim in a straight line." I was so shocked she would hit me in the head with her kickboard I didnt say a word, and I was so angry I just left cause I couldnt think straight after that.     Anyways what is pool ettiqute for something like that? I thought I was doing what I should have and that no matter what she had her head up and could see what was in front of her and she shouldnt have hit me. Is that wrong? What would you do, should I have complained to the lifeguard?   thanks, al marvelli Check out: http://members.aol.com/KybrSose/giantstridePage1.html

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Question:

Yes I am the original complainer…I decided due to rain that I would not show up for the 1998 Danskin Triathlon in Seattle.  There are over 2,000 participants.  The waves are elites first, then teams, then age groups, and age groups are divided by alphabet.  I just turned 40 and am a "W".  The way they had wave starts, the race started at 7:30am and I was scheduled to depart at 9:20.  I finish in the top 1/3 of the participants however the elites will have finished almost an hour before my start. The second triathlon is put on by envirosports which is coed buy purely alphabetical.  I complained also to them, they said if I reminded them the day before, they would let the last of the alphabet go first. My favorite triathlon this year was men starting 10 minutes before women.  I didn’t have to swim over any men and I enjoyed passing men on the bike. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe that the original poster was lamenting the fact that he/she  had a last name that started with a letter in the latter half of the At the two Ironman races I am most familier with – IMH and IMC – the numbering after the first 100 – 200(for the pros and VIP’s) is alphabetical and they alternate years, from  A to Z one year and from Z to A the next year. Consequently if your last name begins with W, you may have your bike racked in the back of the transition zone one year, but the next year you may be at the front. As for the wave starts based on last names, in 15 years of triathlon racing this is the first I have ever heard of this. When waves are required, they are usually by age-group(s). Steve Fleck

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The organisers of the ‘Super Sprint’ series (about 6 races over the season in Melbourne) say (and I seem to recall, remembering we’re in the winter over here) that they vary the starting order.  Pros always go first, and teams and novices are always at the back of the field, but we age groupers can expect early and later wave starts over the whole series. It doesn’t make much difference for on-off entries, but at least it shows the organisers have thought about the issue. Liz

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Charlie, Thank you for the clarification. I did not see the original post. Again, in 15 years of triathlon competition, in Canada and some U.S. States, I have never heard of wave starts based on anything other than age-groups. As for the time trial-starts, this is a race format that I have only encounterd once in my 15 years of triathlon racing. I have vague recollections of using a TT/individual start in my first triathlon ever in 1982. It’s not surprising that this format was used as it was a cross-country ski club who put the race on, as I recall. As you know individual starts are standard fare in competitive xc-skiing. However, since that time every race that I have done has been mass start or wave start. It is interesting to hear that "most" races in the South East are conducted in the TT/individual start format. Why is that? Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : As for the wave starts based on last names, in 15 years of triathlon : racing this is the first I have ever heard of this. When waves are required, : they are usually by age-group(s). Steve, Sal was referring to Heart O’ Dixie and Sunfish which, like most of our races in the Southeast US, use time trial starts.  In the case of heart o Dixie and Sunfish, the athletes are sent off in order of age with a sub order of estimated swim times.  So at 17, Sal was fourth in the water at heart o’Dixie.  That’s nice, but he got passed by lots of folks, which was the subject of his lament.  I heard the same lament from my daughter who was 2nd into the water in the water (but first female out!). -Charlie

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I participated in the Danskin Seattle event, and I did not notice that we were started by last name within our age-groups although there were 3 or 4 waves of each age-group.  I am glad they separated us out a little more because I would have hated to hit the water with 424 other women(which is how many finished in my age-group) for a 1/2 mile swim. I really enjoyed the Danskin event and plan to do it again next year. Kim

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You don’t khnow how lucky you are!!! I’m 17… one of the very few young ‘uns in every race…  Both races that I have done put waves in order of AGE!!!  I really don’t like being the fourth one into the water…  Its bad enough that there is noone to follow for the swim and I get lost.  The worst part is that the entire race I get passed up by EVERYBODY (lots of people) that will eventually finnish ahead of me, instead of them being infront of me to begin with.  It really messes with your mind when somone passes you and their number is like 250…  I think, "Gee, that guy is about 20 minutes ahead of me." –Salvador Santolucito III – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to register my complaint over the use of alphabetical order in triathlon wave starts. Both envirosports and danskin are using alphabet for wave starts.  I can’t help it that my last name starts with "W" I decided not to participate in the Danskin in Seattle yesterday because Danskin starts waves based on age group and then alphabet.  I would have started 1 hours and 50 minutes after the starters.  Since it was raining and I was supposed to get there between 6:00 and 7:00am to get marked and get a good space, I couldn’t see waiting up to 3 hours and 20 minutes to start. It is bad enough that we had to sit in the back of the room through school, can’t we get some relief as adults. Just needed to vent

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I want to register my complaint over the use of alphabetical order in triathlon wave starts.  Both envirosports and danskin are using alphabet for wave starts.  I can’t help it that my last name starts with "W" I decided not to participate in the Danskin in Seattle yesterday because Danskin starts waves based on age group and then alphabet.  I would have started 1 hours and 50 minutes after the starters.  Since it was raining and I was supposed to get there between 6:00 and 7:00am to get marked and get a good space, I couldn’t see waiting up to 3 hours and 20 minutes to start. It is bad enough that we had to sit in the back of the room through school, can’t we get some relief as adults. Just needed to vent

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I believe that the original poster was lamenting the fact that he/she  had a last name that started with a letter in the latter half of the At the two Ironman races I am most familier with – IMH and IMC – the numbering after the first 100 – 200(for the pros and VIP’s) is alphabetical and they alternate years, from  A to Z one year and from Z to A the next year. Consequently if your last name begins with W, you may have your bike racked in the back of the transition zone one year, but the next year you may be at the front. As for the wave starts based on last names, in 15 years of triathlon racing this is the first I have ever heard of this. When waves are required, they are usually by age-group(s). Steve Fleck

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: As for the wave starts based on last names, in 15 years of triathlon : racing this is the first I have ever heard of this. When waves are required, : they are usually by age-group(s). Steve, Sal was referring to Heart O’ Dixie and Sunfish which, like most of our races in the Southeast US, use time trial starts.  In the case of heart o Dixie and Sunfish, the athletes are sent off in order of age with a sub order of estimated swim times.  So at 17, Sal was fourth in the water at heart o’Dixie.  That’s nice, but he got passed by lots of folks, which was the subject of his lament.  I heard the same lament from my daughter who was 2nd into the water in the water (but first female out!). -Charlie

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Let’s talk gender.

OK Last coed triathlon I was in had the men 50-54 leaving before the women 30-34. Not to denigrate all the buff older guys out there, but this was ridiculous. This was a fairly competitive int’l distance race with large waves of women 30-34 and 35-39.

First, let me say that I agree with the problem you presented. For some reason I don’t see the same problems in running, open water swimming, or cycling events.

Well… I have seen a _similar_ problem. However, comparing a triathlon to those events is not valid. In most running events, a fast runner can end up caught in the "mob". I see this in many events. OTOH, wave starts in some races (ie Peachtree 10K; 45,000 participants) provide the correct advantage for *all* faster runners — men and women. However, the comparison is still not valid as the triathlon includes three sports in which participants are not equally strong. In cycling, there is no comparison. Everyone rides in the pack unless on a breakaway (or a TT). There is no overtaking slower waves. I have no idea about open water swimming. Time trial starts for triathlons only partially address the problem. Triathlets who are fast runners or bikers, but slow swimmers, will find themselves facing the same problem you described. At first I thought of the following possible solution for wave starts: like a TT start, have participants estimate their finish times. Create waves based on these times (wave 1 under 1:30:00, wave 2 1:30:00 – 1:45:00, etc.).  Note that the waves should have equal numbers of athletes to prevent overcrowding and drafting. Pros and age groupers would be seeded together. However, that may not be the answer. Because our sport has three parts, there still is the possibility that stong cyclists/weak swimmers will face a lot of traffic during the bike. Hmmmmm…. I can see no clear answer. However, I believe that coed waves are one step in the right direction. David W. / maybe I’m at the bottom of the results because of my name reply to wuth – family – atlanta (remove spaces) at att dot net

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David, I work in marketing, where there’s a general rule that anything that someone fills out in a survey is not the truth. I’ve been in races that use your suggestion of asking people for their starting time, and the result is just as messy as a "normal" wave start. I like the idea in concept, but I don’t think it normally works in practice. As you point out, there doesn’t seem to be a clear answer. Some of the better races that I’ve been in were seemingly random for placement. Lots of times, day-of registrants get dumped in one wave. This seems to work as well as, if not better than, most other methods. Stephan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … At first I thought of the following possible solution for wave starts: like a TT start, have participants estimate their finish times. Create waves based on these times (wave 1 under 1:30:00, wave 2 1:30:00 – 1:45:00, etc.).  Note that the waves should have equal numbers of athletes to prevent overcrowding and drafting. Pros and age groupers would be seeded together. Hmmmmm…. I can see no clear answer. However, I believe that coed waves are one step in the right direction. …

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Let’s talk gender. Last coed triathlon I was in had the men 50-54 leaving before the women 30-34. Not to denigrate all the buff older guys out there, but this was ridiculous. This was a fairly competitve int’l distance race with large waves of women 30-34 and 35-39.  One reason I stopped doing much coed tri stuff is the nuisance value of things like this.  My wave is so far in the back that I feel like a second class citizen….OK, pay your $75 or whatever, but we don’t really care about you…just the faster folks up front.  I still really like Danskin and other events.  For some reason I don’t see the same problems in running, open water swimming, or cycling events. S You really lost me there…what is it exactly that you are upset about? 1) The AGE of the competitors in earlier waves? 2) The GENDER of the competitors in earlier waves? 3) The Race Director somehow NOT CARING about you…because you were in a later wave? 4 The SPEED of the competitors in earlier waves? 5) All of the above? 6) None of the above? 7) OTHER? I dont think there is one universal…most fair method of seeding/starting a triathlon.  There are too many variables which can include: Course variables,  weather variables, wide ranges in competitor ages and abilities, etc. Why not just realize that on that particular day….for that particular race…you were in THAT wave..whatever it was.  Then go out and enjoy your day…work hard…or take it easy…any way you please.   As sports go, it seems that triathlons are relatively <fair due to the age grouping and "individual effort" nature of the sport (swift kick to Les McD’s seated, weight-bearing anatomical portion). Based on your brief introduction, and references to the Danskin series later in your post….I am inclined to assume it is the GENDER of the competitors ahead of you that was the nuisance.  If it had been the 50-54 women in that wave…would you have felt differently?  Please enlighten… Respectfully baffled, gregnelson (who feels like a third class citizen because he not only starts in a later wave…but finishes there as well)

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Alright, I had to put my $.02 in on this one, cuz it bugs me too. All of the coed races I have done have started the women’s waves after ALL of the men’s waves.  I always thought it would work better if they did men’s 20-24, then women’s 20-24, then men’s 25-29, etc.         But maybe I’m a bit partial here, cuz I’m in the women’s 20-24, and I’m a pretty strong swimmer, and I would like to be able to really get out and swim, instead of crawling over all of the guys in front of me.  So to me it is a gender issue, but I wouldn’t like it if the put all the women if front either, cuz then it would not be fair to the guys who are stong swimmers.         My thoughts,         =) Sara Gilliland

Let’s talk gender. Last coed triathlon I was in had the men 50-54 leaving before the women 30-34. Not to denigrate all the buff older guys out there, but this was ridiculous. This was a fairly competitve int’l distance race with large waves of women 30-34 and 35-39.  One reason I stopped doing much coed tri stuff is the nuisance value of things like this.  My wave is so far in the back that I feel like a second class citizen….OK, pay your $75 or whatever, but we don’t really care about you…just the faster folks up front.  I still really like Danskin and other events.  For some reason I don’t see the same problems in running, open water swimming, or cycling events. S You really lost me there…what is it exactly that you are upset about? 1) The AGE of the competitors in earlier waves? 2) The GENDER of the competitors in earlier waves?

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Some ones got to be in the last wave!!! (lol)               B.Oliver

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Let’s talk gender. Last coed triathlon I was in had the men 50-54 leaving before the women 30-34. Not to denigrate all the buff older guys out there, but this was ridiculous. This was a fairly competitive int’l distance race with large waves of women 30-34 and 35-39.  One reason I stopped doing much coed tri stuff is the nuisance value of things like this.  My wave is so far in the back that I feel like a second class citizen…OK, pay your $75 or whatever, but we don’t really care about you….just the faster folks up front.  I still really like Danskin and other events.  For some reason I don’t see the same problems in running, open water swimming, or cycling events. S – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to register my complaint over the use of alphabetical order in triathlon wave starts.  Both envirosports and danskin are using alphabet for wave starts.  I can’t help it that my last name starts with "W" I decided not to participate in the Danskin in Seattle yesterday because Danskin starts waves based on age group and then alphabet.  I would have started 1 hours and 50 minutes after the starters.  Since it was raining and I was supposed to get there between 6:00 and 7:00am to get marked and get a good space, I couldn’t see waiting up to 3 hours and 20 minutes to start. It is bad enough that we had to sit in the back of the room through school, can’t we get some relief as adults. Just needed to vent

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Question:

Was this where there was a post about cytomax curing hangovers? If it is what flavor or do all of them work?

How would cytomax help?

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Was this where there was a post about cytomax curing hangovers? If it is what flavor or do all of them work? How would cytomax help?

Hangover?, What’s a hangover? I heard it has something to do with this drink called beer. Hmmm… "Iron" Pete Priolo Sub 10 hour IMC’97 —Countdown: 33 days until D-Day!!!

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How would cytomax help?

        It will help the same way water, Gatorade, orange juice, etc. does. A hangover is a dehydrated brain, rehydrate it with your choice of liquids. David Barclay IMC 1997 Triathlon: "Swim, Bike, Crawl"

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Question:

Has anyone seen or know where I can find the results to this race???

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The results for the Buffalo Springs Lake Triathlon will be posted within 24 hours, todays date is June 30.  The address is http://greerinc.com. Mike Greer, Race Director

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Question:

Hello fellow-runners! Since a few years I take part in races open for everyone. My own level is intermediate; neither at the top nor at the bottom. In most of the races I run directly behind another participant for 1-2k to break the wind or to keep a proper pace. Now I am in doubt if my attitude is all right. Is there a common sense about this subject? What do you think about it? —

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Since a few years I take part in races open for everyone. My own level is intermediate; neither at the top nor at the bottom. In most of the races I run directly behind another participant for 1-2k to break the wind or to keep a proper pace. Now I am in doubt if my attitude is all right. Is there a common sense about this subject? What do you think about it? —

As a point of etiquette, I guess there’s no problem so long as the runner who is providing the slipstream doesn’t mind… For myself, another mid-pack runner, I am running for myself and against the clock. So I would want to know what I am can achieve, *without* the the benefit of a tow for a few k’s. If you were up at the sharp end of things, you simply need to look at what the rule book says. If it’s not excluded, it ain’t cheating.   Miles

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Since a few years I take part in races open for everyone. My own level is intermediate; neither at the top nor at the bottom. In most of the races I run directly behind another participant for 1-2k to break the wind or to keep a proper pace. Now I am in doubt if my attitude is all right. Is there a common sense about this subject? What do you think about it? —

I do this all the time. I just try to make sure I do my share of pacesetting and leading. I remember one race in particular, years ago at the 16.2 miler in Wisconsin (I can’t spell it: Sytennde Mai?), where I was feeling particularly good, and I chose to (or they let me) lead a pack through the entire back portion of the race into a fairly strong headwind. I didn’t feel like I was being treated unfairly, and in fact, I finished feeling really good. Ken

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Hello fellow-runners! Since a few years I take part in races open for everyone. My own level is intermediate; neither at the top nor at the bottom. In most of the races I run directly behind another participant for 1-2k to break the wind or to keep a proper pace. Now I am in doubt if my attitude is all right. Is there a common sense about this subject? What do you think about it? —

I think that there’s no problem with it as long as you do your share of the work, that is to take the lead and work for your fellow runner a little while and them let him work for you etc etc…  And when one of the two ( or group ) is ready to go , then it steps on the gas and go… You should share the benefits of drafting with the one you’re slowing down… If not, you are a bit like a parasite… — Physical Activity Science Laboratory       (418) 656-2131 #2929 (Laval University)  G1K 7P4 CANADA

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"Drafting" is not against the rules as long as you follow a competitor and you are not in a Triathlon (where drafting IS against the rules, especially on the bike, and they can assess you a time penalty). The recent issue in the NYC marathon was that a woman was essentially drafting a male racer, which is legal; It would only be against the rules if somebody not officially competing in the race was timing a competitor. Bob Kampainen gets drafted by someone smaller from time to time.  Legal for prize money, legal for world records.  But if its YOUR PR, well, YOU are the one that you have to satisfy about this.

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Drafting in Tri’s is no longer illegal

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Question:

I don’t understand.  With the growth of the use of computers and the Internet and this newsgroup, why don’t race directors post the results of their races here.  You never see a posting on a local race or a reference to a big race with it’s own page. Most participants would like to know how they did in relation to their age group or other peers without waiting around a couple of hours or getting the results 2 weeks later.  If the attachment is too big, how about at least the top ten.  Come on, get with it, this is the new communications age.

Edward, Here in Dallas, the Cross Country Club of Dallas posts the complete results of each monthly race within hours of the event:    http://www.startext.net/~homes/cccd In addition, Apple Racing Systems (one of the large race direction services in Dallas) posts their results after each race:    http://home.navisoft.com/apple/index.htm I maintain a calendar of Dallas/Ft. Worth running events:    http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/2056/dfwraces.html and provide a link from this calendar to any race that has their own home page. Take a look, there are more and more popping up each month! The communications age is still new to a lot of people, but folks are coming onboard each day. We all wish it would move faster, but at least it is moving. Maybe you can speed things up in your local community by pointing them to our Dallas web pages and show them what can be done! Hope I’ve been of help, Ken __ Dallas/Ft. Worth Calendar of running events at:      http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/2056/dfwraces.html             Exercise may not add one more day to my life,             but it adds more life to each and every day!

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I don’t understand.  With the growth of the use of computers and the Internet and this newsgroup, why don’t race directors post the results of their races here.  You never see a posting on a local race or a reference to a big race with it’s own page. Most participants would like to know how they did in relation to their age group or other peers without waiting around a couple of hours or getting the results 2 weeks later.  If the attachment is too big, how about at least the top ten.  Come on, get with it, this is the new communications age.

Hi Ed: While I agree that RD’s should use the net to post results, I don’t think this newsgroup would be the appropriate place to post complete results of races. These would be big files with little interest to most readers. Remember, some of our associates in other countries have to pay per download and file size. I think posting top ten results would be acceptable, tho still of limited interest to most . Personal race reports are always welcome and could include winner information. There are no technical reasons that race results couldn’t be posted on a web page. The only limitations are the traditional ones – someone has to type them into an ascii file or useful format, then get ‘em to the webmaster to get posted. A few of the major races post some of their results. Surprisingly, it is more common for triathlons to do it. Perhaps tri-animals are a smaller and closer "fraternity". Mike Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar FTP Race Apps, FAQ, Download The WebRunner Racing Utilities http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

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I don’t understand.  With the growth of the use of computers and the Internet and this newsgroup, why don’t race directors post the results of their races here.  You never see a posting on a local race or a reference to a big race with it’s own page. Most participants would like to know how they did in relation to their age group or other peers without waiting around a couple of hours or getting the results 2 weeks later.  If the attachment is too big, how about at least the top ten.  Come on, get with it, this is the new communications age.

  In the New England area, the CoolRunning Web site, http://www.coolrunning.com, has a lot of race results.  It posts not only running results but triathlon/duathlon results.  CoolRunning is trying to become the New England repository for this information.  I hope that they succeed.  The key will be having the race directors and/or timing companies send a simple text file to CoolRunning.  They usually post the results within a day or two.   Martin — Martin Feeney Xionics Document Technologies, Inc. Phone: (617) 229-4138

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I don’t understand.  With the growth of the use of computers and the Internet and this newsgroup, why don’t race directors post the results of their races here.  You never see a posting on a local race or a reference to a big race with it’s own page. Most participants would like to know how they did in relation to their age group or other peers without waiting around a couple of hours or getting the results 2 weeks later.  If the attachment is too big, how about at least the top ten.  Come on, get with it, this is the new communications age.

Its starting to happen slowly !  Check out http://www.ontherun.com/finish.sht for many Northwest USA race results !

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writes: I don’t understand.  With the growth of the use of computers and the Internet and this newsgroup, why don’t race directors post the results of their races here.  You never see a posting on a local race or a reference to a big race with it’s own page. Most participants would like to know how they did in relation to their age group or other peers without waiting around a couple of hours or getting the results 2 weeks later.  If the attachment is too big, how about at least the top ten.  Come on, get with it, this is the new communications age.

From my experience race results rarely take hours to be posted after a race. One of the races I did this year I was checking results less than 15 minutes after I finished. I go to races for social reasons as well as competitive ones also. I don’t mind waiting the usual 45 minutes or so after a race is finished for the results. Gives me a chance to catch up with some old friends. Getting a web site only means more headaches for the race director. Besides not everybody has access to the net. Whats the sense of finishing a race, driving home to your computer to sit there and wait for the race results? Andrew Heiz "A boring life isn’t long it only seems it."

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I don’t understand.  With the growth of the use of computers and the Internet and this newsgroup, why don’t race directors post the results of their races here.  You never see a posting on a local race or a reference to a big race with it’s own page. Most participants would like to know how they did in relation to their age group or other peers without waiting around a couple of hours or getting the results 2 weeks later.  If the attachment is too big, how about at least the top ten.  Come on, get with it, this is the new communications age.

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Question:

I remember last fall reading some postive posts about the Great Floridian Ironman distance triathlon. Could someone who did that race please let me know again if my memory is correct? What is the usual daytime temperature at that time of year? Still in the 90s? Is the race well organized? Are there enough volunteers? Thanks. Cathy Corning

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o Very well organized.  (aid stations every 8 on bike, every 1 mi on run) o Very hilly on first 35 of bike and first 3 miles of run.  (‘rolling’ hills my eye, Ferndale loop is grueling,     and Sugerloaf is a good chance to remove the bananas from your stomach) o Warm last year (mile 90 on bike looked like battlefield with peoples scattered on both sides of road) o Great crowds (They cheered all night long, along the run course, and as you come back into town     on bike). o All the glucose you could want at the end.

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Question:

Try Baracuda goggles. They’re 3 times as expensive as speedo’s but they dont leak or fog and they stay on your face when you get kicked. It takes about a week for the foam on the goggles to form to you eye sockets so be patient.

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I like cheap speedo goggles with plastic pads (instead of foam).  One good way to size goggles is to stick them to your face and see if they stay put, without using the straps.  I tried Barracuda goggles a while back and hated them.  Personally, I’ve never had luck with goggles that cost over $10. -Marc

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: Can anyone recommend a good set of goggles for a beginning swimmer?  I’ve : got the running and biking down, now it’s timew to hit the pool : I’m ready for controlled drowning (for a couple of weeks) and would like a : good set of goggles to minimize the unpleasantries. I wear : contacts/glasses if that makes a difference. Any other tips for a new : swimmer would be appriciated. : Thanks : Tony Tony, I think that any swimmer has a bucket of goggles in the closet.  It seems to me that it’s trial-and-error, and you don’t really know if they fit until you’ve done a workout.  So you buy a pair, swim in them, fiddle with them every lap, have a worthless workout, get mad, and toss them in the bucket.  Repeat until you find a pair that works.   Eric

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snip, snip Trial and error. If the goggles fit, don’t leak and are comfortable–wear em. I have gone through many pairs and have found that the cheap ones fit just as well as the good ones at times. I think it is good to have one pair of smoked lenses for sunny days and a clear pair for night or cloudy days or indoors. Right now I use TYR goggles with big foam pads, they work quite nicely for me. I have used Speedo and Swans (The Ironman model) also. Once you find the perfect pair ,no doubt about it,  you will lose them at masters practice or at a race and have to repeat the process. This rule also applies to Zoomers and pullbuoys. JJ

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Can anyone recommend a good set of goggles for a beginning swimmer?  I’ve got the running and biking down, now it’s timew to hit the pool I’m ready for controlled drowning (for a couple of weeks) and would like a good set of goggles to minimize the unpleasantries. I wear contacts/glasses if that makes a difference. Any other tips for a new swimmer would be appriciated. Thanks Tony

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Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles? Kind of a small issue but it becomes a pain after a while. Thanks in advance, gvb. Before you buy.

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Hi, The easiest thing to do is to put a small amount of water in the goggles before the start. This prevents fogging because while you swim, the water moves around the lens keeping it free of fog. This works very well unless the water leaks out of the lens. The key is to use the right amount of water, so experiment in training. The other option is to use a brand new pair of goggles at every race. The former option is slightly more economical though. Joel Filliol www.competitionzone.com Online Triathlon Coaching and Consulting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles? Kind of a small issue but it becomes a pain after a while. Thanks in advance, gvb. Before you buy.

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if the water in goggles gets on your nerves and new goggles too expensive,try shampoo,you put it inside your goggles and clean at the same time,leave for a minute or so,then wash out with water,but dont touch the lense once this has been done or you will smear it…….its really good for cleaning and anti fog ….. jh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles? Kind of a small issue but it becomes a pain after a while. Thanks in advance, gvb. Before you buy.

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See you’ve had some responses already but this ones cheap and it works. Spit in your goggles then lightly rinse them.  The viscosity of the saliva prevents misting.  I;ve used it for years and my gogles are always clear! (if a little slimy) Al – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles? Kind of a small issue but it becomes a pain after a while. Thanks in advance, gvb. Before you buy.

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Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles?

It’s called spit. Good old fashioned spit. Not just saliva, but a big ole loogy from the back of the throat.  Rub it around inside the goggles until your fingertip squeaks along the lens, then rinse, and immediately don the goggles.  Works like a charm for goggles, masks, you name it. One minor caveat.  In my ten years of teaching SCUBA, it has become clear that male spit works better than female spit for this.  Maybe it’s a chemical thing, maybe it’s that men are less self conscious about working up the right viscosity – I don’t know.

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It’s called spit. Good old fashioned spit. Not just saliva, but a big ole loogy from the back of the throat.  Rub it around inside the goggles until your fingertip squeaks along the lens, then rinse, and immediately don the goggles.  Works like a charm for goggles, masks, you name it. One minor caveat.  In my ten years of teaching SCUBA, it has become clear that male spit works better than female spit for this.  Maybe it’s a chemical thing, maybe it’s that men are less self conscious about working up the right viscosity – I don’t know.

Am I the only one is getting positively schizophrenic over Brian’s posts?  One post I’m enjoying and the next one makes me puke.  Are you, Brian, going to be my very first filter, just to preserve my equilibrium? Ruth

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Am I the only one is getting positively schizophrenic over Brian’s posts?  One post I’m enjoying and the next one makes me puke.  Are you, Brian, going to be my very first filter, just to preserve my equilibrium?

Just trying to keep you guessing Ruth, but I don’t for a minute believe anything I write could make YOU puke.  You’re made of sterner stuff than that. NOW who’s being coy?

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Am I the only one is getting positively schizophrenic over Brian’s posts?  One post I’m enjoying and the next one makes me puke.  Are you, Brian, going to be my very first filter, just to preserve my equilibrium?

Just doing my part to maintain the high standards of expression around here.  BTW, everything I said about defogging goggles was dead serious, and tested to 130 ft. depth and for up to 90 minutes of submersion.  I always see the buoys.  You can have your petty little hangups, Ms. "it’s called a clitoris," or you can have clear goggles.  What’s it gonna be?   Brian "lately this NG is more fun than drowning puppies" Wagner

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles? It’s called spit. Good old fashioned spit. Not just saliva, but a big ole loogy from the back of the throat.  Rub it around inside the goggles until your fingertip squeaks along the lens, then rinse, and immediately don the goggles.  Works like a charm for goggles, masks, you name it. One minor caveat.  In my ten years of teaching SCUBA, it has become clear that male spit works better than female spit for this.  Maybe it’s a chemical thing, maybe it’s that men are less self conscious about working up the right viscosity – I don’t know.

Well, I suppose if you’re after a reaction then Brian’s method is the way to go. On the other hand you can try mine, which still gets a few funny looks at the pool. Put your goggles and and get the straps all adjusted just the way you like them. Now grab the lenses, pull ‘em down far enough that you can give each a good swipe with your tongue. Slap ‘em back over your eyeballs and you’re good to go. Gives just the right amount of saliva without having to worry whether you’re going to get a "loogy" in your eye. Furthermore, after the swim be sure to wash your goggles with a bit of soap or shampoo. This will clean them out of whatever the water vapor is condensing on. Stacy "Saving my loogies for the drafters" Hills Reston, VA

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if spitting in/licking your goggles works for you, great, but it never works for me more than a few hundred yards… i’ve never tried shampoo, sounds like it could work? the only thing that works every time for me is the anti-fog solution… i’d always just licked or spit in my goggles and lived with the fogging that would eventually come, until i got some anti fog drops in a goodie bag at a tri a couple of yrs ago (TYR drops i believe?). i don’t use them for training (the fogging doesn’t bother me much there), but use them for every race with no complaints.

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if spitting in/licking your goggles works for you, great, but it never works for me more than a few hundred yards…

Doug, you spit like a girl! Brian "this is just too easy" Wagner

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Never worked for me either.  I also heard that dish soap will do the same. I know someone that makes a solution of 10 drops dish soap to about 4 ounces of water – proportions approximate. Larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if spitting in/licking your goggles works for you, great, but it never works for me more than a few hundred yards…

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if spitting in/licking your goggles works for you, great, but it never works for me more than a few hundred yards… Doug, you spit like a girl! Brian "this is just too easy" Wagner

step a bit closer and say that

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I recommend baby shampoo in case you get some in your eyes. No More Tears

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if the water in goggles gets on your nerves and new goggles too expensive,try shampoo,you put it inside your goggles and clean at the same time,leave for a minute or so,then wash out with water,but dont touch the lense once this has been done or you will smear it…….its really good for cleaning and anti fog ….. jh Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles? Kind of a small issue but it becomes a pain after a while. Thanks in advance, gvb. Before you buy.

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I have been scuba diving way longer than swimming and before a dive i put a liittle bit of toothpaste and rub on lens. then rinse with very little water and do not touch them until after you are done swimming. Good luck Albert – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles? Kind of a small issue but it becomes a pain after a while. Thanks in advance, gvb. Before you buy.

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I can’t say that I’ve tried this, but I just thought of this.  Would Rain-X work?  It’s nothing that you want to get in your eye, so make sure there’s none floating around the inside.  I think I’ve heard people using it for sunglasses so maybe it’ll work for goggles, too. Kendall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles? Kind of a small issue but it becomes a pain after a while. Thanks in advance, gvb. Before you buy.

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I have been scuba diving way longer than swimming and before a dive i put a liittle bit of toothpaste and rub on lens. then rinse with very little water and do not touch them until after you are done swimming.

        Your dive mask is tempered glass, and will not be scratched by toothpaste. It only needs the toothpaste scrubbing when it’s brand new to remove the residues of the manufacturing process.  Swim goggles are plastic, much more easily scratched by abrasive toothpastes, and most goggles now come with anti-fog coatings, which the toothpaste will remove.         One other point – if you need to use toothpaste on your mask before every dive, then you are getting oils of some sort on the mask lens. The most common source of this is putting the mask up on top of your head.  Neither masks nor goggles should ever be placed up there.  In diving, a mask pulled up on the head is a distress sign,  as it is a manifestation of equipment rejection, a sign of undue stress and discomfort with the environment or the equipment.  Oils from hair are one of the most common causes of fogging.

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Seems this thread is demonstrating everyting that’s great about NG’s BTW I agree with Brian, great big greenies are the best! Al

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t say that I’ve tried this, but I just thought of this.  Would Rain-X work?  It’s nothing that you want to get in your eye, so make sure there’s none floating around the inside.  I think I’ve heard people using it for sunglasses so maybe it’ll work for goggles, too. Kendall Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles? Kind of a small issue but it becomes a pain after a while. Thanks in advance, gvb. Before you buy.

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Speedo makes an anti-fog product that comes in a small pump-spray bottle and is relatively cheap…although not as cheap as spit.  Works great …lasts a long time. Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, Quick question regarding goggles. All of the pairs of goggles I have used over the last couple of years have had some severe fogging issues. This is obviously an issue for spotting bouys etc. Is there any majic ‘anti-fogging spray’ or has anyone had good experiences with any specific brands of goggles? Kind of a small issue but it becomes a pain after a while. Thanks in advance, gvb. Before you buy.

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Best advice I’ve heard is that there’s no one type for everyone.  Each face is different, and you need to find a pair that fit you.  DON’T buy them w/o trying them on.  A good way to test for fit is to press the goggle onto your eyes without the strap in place.  If the suction alone will hold them on, they will usually be quite watertight, since this indicates a good seal.  If you are a beginner, you may find a goggle w/ larger eyecups more comfortable, since they put less pressure on your eyes.  Most important is fit though.   As to brand-names, I have had both Speedo & Baracuda goggles.  Both did the job (ie kept water out of my eyes). Cameron Geddes — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — "The road to hell is paved."                                                  – —        -The SouthPAW Road Ripper’s Guide to the National Forests        –

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        The most popular goggles among swimmers and has been for a while are called Swedish Speed Goggles. They don’t have any foam but the cup is contoured for your face. These goggles are custom built because you build them yourself(they come unassembled) and because they have no foam they last forever(except if the band rots then you can replace that for pennies). Probably the best thing about these goggles is that they usually cost 5 dollars or less. Most triathletes like the big foam padding and I am not sure why. Anyway, If you don’t know what goggles I am talking about, just pick up any issue of a swimming magazine and look at the Olympic or world class swimmers(or any swimmer for that matter), most of them use these goggles. T.J. Fry

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: Best advice I’ve heard is that there’s no one type for everyone.  Each face : is different, and you need to find a pair that fit you.  DON’T buy them : w/o trying them on.  A good way to test for fit is to press the goggle : onto your eyes without the strap in place.  If the suction alone will : hold them on, they will usually be quite watertight, since this indicates a good seal.  If you are a beginner, : you may find a goggle w/ larger eyecups more comfortable, since they put : less pressure on your eyes.  Most important is fit though.   : As to brand-names, I have had both Speedo & Baracuda goggles.  Both did the : job (ie kept water out of my eyes). : Cameron Geddes The thing about goggles is that once you’ve gone through them all and actually found a type that doesn’t leak (too much) and are resigned, if not completely happy with them, all the local shops will stop carrying them in favour of the latest whiz bang model that doesn’t fit your face. It’s like shampoo labels: Wash, rinse, REPEAT process. Marcus Perry

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