Question:

I completed a total immersion class in Santa Fe in March this year. The course had a wide variety of swimmers from folks who were fairly new, to others who had serious swim team or triathlon experience. I’d put myself in the middle. The real benefit I’ve seen is pretty good balance in the water and a very relaxed stroke. My benefit from the course is only as good as my continuing to retrain my brain to what I learned (and unlearning some of my old habits is really hard). Can you learn much of the material for the cost of a book with lots of practice? Yes. Will the course help you get there lots faster and give you more insights to think about? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes. Would I consider their 5 day class? Yes. Am I willing to throw some money at learning how to get better in the water? Yes. I’d summarize that I think it is a little on the expensive side, but I learned a lot. Cheers, Jon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I am getting ready to do my third tri.  WOW what a rush my first two were. The problem I have is I am a good biker and runner but my swimming lacks something. I have tried YMCA private lessons and they do not seem to help.  I have just seen an ad for Total Immersion. Is it worth the money?  Could someone comment who has taken the course what they got out of it?  Is it just for learning how from scratch? or someone who knows a little about swimming? Thanks Tom Quinn

Response:

TI swimming will change you whole attitude on swimming…it is an amazing technique. I took the class last November. I would highly recommend it. The only thing that people say negative about it goes something like this "I don’t feel like I’m getting a workout,"  or "This can’t be right because I’m only taking 12 strokes to get to the end of the pool and before I was taking 26 strokes"  Here’s the deal…  you will love it and you will blow everyone else away in the water! Brady

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I attended the Total Immersion Clinic a few years back in Oakland, CA.  It DEFINITELY helped me.  Some classroom work, mostly pool drills.  They videotaped before & after–what a difference!  This is not a "learn to swim" clinic.  You’ve got to be able to swim, they just refine/improve your technique for better swim efficiency.  It was worth the $ to me. -Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I am getting ready to do my third tri.  WOW what a rush my first two were. The problem I have is I am a good biker and runner but my swimming lacks something. I have tried YMCA private lessons and they do not seem to help.  I have just seen an ad for Total Immersion. Is it worth the money?  Could someone comment who has taken the course what they got out of it?  Is it just for learning how from scratch? or someone who knows a little about swimming? Thanks Tom Quinn

Response:

Hello, I am getting ready to do my third tri.  WOW what a rush my first two were. The problem I have is I am a good biker and runner but my swimming lacks something. I have tried YMCA private lessons and they do not seem to help.  I have just seen an ad for Total Immersion. Is it worth the money?  Could someone comment who has taken the course what they got out of it?  Is it just for learning how from scratch? or someone who knows a little about swimming? Thanks Tom Quinn

Response:

My husband took this course in Northern Va couple of years ago, and it really helped him a lot,. It was for 2 days at the Chinn Aquatic Center and now he is swimming faster than me….. They did loads of drills and some classroom work, but he highly recommended it. Ally whose goals and aspirations lead her to stupidly train for too much stuff entirely!!!

Response:

Question:

I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I

BIG SNIP time of 13:22. My broken pelvis slowed me slighlty, but I thought it was just REALLY REALLY bad saddle sore.

This has to be one of the best quotes I have ever seen posted here. "My broken pelvis slowed me slighlty, but…" Jeesus! Hard core. Phil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you wanna finish…..7 hours per week will work…..JUST. If you wanna have a good experience (or at least better) then 15 hours per week is probably a good idea, along with nutritional practice, and a real bike. — TTFN TriDork ALWAYS have a "Plan B"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you joking? What do you mean when you say "front of the pack". The 10 guys at IMH who actually do train those crazy hours. The (very limited # of) guys for whom an 8-something hour race is standard operating procedure? The thread originated by someone asking for minimal time needed to finish an IM…not what consitutes normal training for a very small bunch of people… 1200 hours/year is more than sufficient for enabling a triathlete to finish in the front of the pack, not just finish…in fact, you’ll probably find that many fast ironman triathletes (even pros) don’t train anywhere near that amount…and most of those 300-400 mile weeks you hear about are for a few weeks (to ramp up), not for the entire year…and even those people take a month or two off each year… Somebody help me out here! There’s probably about 1,200 hours difference between what’s required for a Front-of-Pack finish, and a finish. — Mark

Let me help….   1200 – 0 = 1200 difference between Front of Pack and the finisher staggering in 4 hours before the sun comes up on the day after.  It was tongue-in-cheek —  apparently too tongue-in-cheek  :) My guess would be (although I have absolutely zero basis for this guess) that the top 10 or 20 finishers in the WTC IMs train 1200 and up.  But who really knows?  What’s training time, what’s shower time, and what’s ’stop for a coldie’ time?  1200 hours in Zone 5 HR?  Not likely. — Mark

Response:

Exactly. I just wonder who is out there training 1200 hours/year?! That’s crazy. That’s over 20 hours/week all year long (w/no time off). That’s absurd. Most pros probably don’t train that much. Half that isn’t even necessary. Joel Friel probably knows a lot about training/racing, but with someone like that telling people they’ll have to train 600-1200 hours/year for an Ironman, it’s a wonder anyone even bothers to sign up for an IM… A side note: Joel Friel in the Inside Triathlon Training Diary suggests that IM athletes train 600-1200 hours a year (versus 400-600 hours a year for International distance racing).  I’m proof that this isn’t necessary (unless you are interested in better finishing times, as I am, hence my increasing training hours). Hope this helps. –Lee Crumbaugh (Tri-Hard)

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I love that question…I hardly train…I am not pro…I think you can do an IM with mostly your mind.  I’ve done three in the last 6 years and each time I have improved my time by just being smarter and training less.  You can complete and IM, you won’t be on the winner’s block, but you will have all the feelings and emotions that are part of crossing that finish line!

Response:

I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours

snip Torsten Minimums? You want Minimums?! I have done 3 IM to date (still can’t kick the habit) For my first IM I ( and everyone else) had no idea what I was getting into so I trained all the time I had available. This turned out to be about 15 hours per week. I managed 14:16 on the worlds easiest IM course in Montreal Canada ‘95. For my second IM in New Zealand ‘98, I Knew more and trained less but better and on the actual course. This worked out to about 7-8 hours most weeks and 10 or slightly more for a BIG week With this training I suffered (mainly due to the killer course and monster winds on the day) for 15:15, wishing I had taken up tennis. For my last IMNZ’00, I trained more, 10-20 hours per week) occasionally on the new IMNZ course, and better quality. I narrowly missed the nutritional part this time and suffered horribly on the run for a final time of 13:22. My broken pelvis slowed me slighlty, but I thought it was just REALLY REALLY bad saddle sore. If you wanna finish…..7 hours per week will work…..JUST. If you wanna have a good experience (or at least better) then 15 hours per week is probably a good idea, along with nutritional practice, and a real bike. — TTFN TriDork ALWAYS have a "Plan B"

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No, I know of people who train 20-25 hours/week (for IM anyway, i hope not for OD and sprints!)…all I’m saying is that people have to realize that it’s not always necessary. In fact, I think it’s ridiculous/overkill…I think it actually works against most people…It’s too bad that those who are new to the sport get discouraged by all this talk of 25 hour training weeks. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong w/training 25 hours/week – i wish I could do that! Talent or no talent, i think under 500 hours/week can get anyone to the IM finish line…(so long as the quality training is there). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as the origanal topic (minimal training for an IM) I am sure it can be done on the 5-10 hours a week people mention.  However your comments seem to indicate you believe only the top 10 finishers at IMH are training 1200 hours a year, you are mistaken.  I think you would be very surprised at how many decent age groupers train this much.  Many people I know and have known over the years train this much for Tri’s or for just Mountain bike or road racing. 20-25 hours a week of training is what it takes for the born talentless to be competitive for at least one person I know.  I think you are correct in saying smoe pros don’t train this much, this is due to talent.  Of course guys like Tinley used to train 40+ hours a week. Tim buaidh no bas

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you joking? What do you mean when you say "front of the pack". The 10 guys at IMH who actually do train those crazy hours. The (very limited # of) guys for whom an 8-something hour race is standard operating procedure? The thread originated by someone asking for minimal time needed to finish an IM…not what consitutes normal training for a very small bunch of people… 1200 hours/year is more than sufficient for enabling a triathlete to finish in the front of the pack, not just finish…in fact, you’ll probably find that many fast ironman triathletes (even pros) don’t train anywhere near that amount…and most of those 300-400 mile weeks you hear about are for a few weeks (to ramp up), not for the entire year…and even those people take a month or two off each year… Somebody help me out here!

As far as the origanal topic (minimal training for an IM) I am sure it can be done on the 5-10 hours a week people mention.  However your comments seem to indicate you believe only the top 10 finishers at IMH are training 1200 hours a year, you are mistaken.  I think you would be very surprised at how many decent age groupers train this much.  Many people I know and have known over the years train this much for Tri’s or for just Mountain bike or road racing.  20-25 hours a week of training is what it takes for the born talentless to be competitive for at least one person I know.  I think you are correct in saying smoe pros don’t train this much, this is due to talent.  Of course guys like Tinley used to train 40+ hours a week. Tim buaidh no bas

Response:

Heh heh… (it was an errant select/delete…sorry about that) Hey nitz, you have my name there at the top but nothing posted by me in your quote! Phil

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I’d agree w/that… I’d be willing to bet that there’s not a significant difference in the actual number of hours put in by the 12 hour finisher and the 16 hour finisher. But the pace and intensity will be quite different. It’s the quality, not the quantity. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 Great Floridian ‘99, ‘00

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you joking? What do you mean when you say "front of the pack". The 10 guys at IMH who actually do train those crazy hours. The (very limited # of) guys for whom an 8-something hour race is standard operating procedure? The thread originated by someone asking for minimal time needed to finish an IM…not what consitutes normal training for a very small bunch of people… 1200 hours/year is more than sufficient for enabling a triathlete to finish in the front of the pack, not just finish…in fact, you’ll probably find that many fast ironman triathletes (even pros) don’t train anywhere near that amount…and most of those 300-400 mile weeks you hear about are for a few weeks (to ramp up), not for the entire year…and even those people take a month or two off each year… Somebody help me out here!

I’d be willing to bet that there’s not a significant difference in the actual number of hours put in by the 12 hour finisher and the 16 hour finisher. But the pace and intensity will be quite different. It’s the quality, not the quantity. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 Great Floridian ‘99, ‘00

Response:

Hey nitz, you have my name there at the top but nothing posted by me in your quote! Phil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you joking? What do you mean when you say "front of the pack". The 10 guys at IMH who actually do train those crazy hours. The (very limited # of) guys for whom an 8-something hour race is standard operating procedure? The thread originated by someone asking for minimal time needed to finish an IM…not what consitutes normal training for a very small bunch of people… 1200 hours/year is more than sufficient for enabling a triathlete to finish in the front of the pack, not just finish…in fact, you’ll probably find that many fast ironman triathletes (even pros) don’t train anywhere near that amount…and most of those 300-400 mile weeks you hear about are for a few weeks (to ramp up), not for the entire year…and even those people take a month or two off each year… Somebody help me out here! There’s probably about 1,200 hours difference between what’s required for a Front-of-Pack finish, and a finish. — Mark

Response:

oh, and switching from your mtn bike to a road with aerobars will make a big diff. i would guess the biggest difference (coming from slicks) would be the addition of the aerobars to set your body position, followed by the more aero tires and lastly themore aero frame (least difference). arguments could be made for more stable handling of a road bike, but over the course of hours, this is overwhelmed by aerodynamics.

Response:

I’ve done 2 ironman races (‘98 and ‘99). I started triathlons in 1997. I’m 27 years old. Most races I do are sprints and ODs. In ‘99, I did IMH on 12-15 hours/week of training/week. I had a full time job (45 hours/week or so). For much of the spring/summer (i don’t do much in the winter, maybe 5 hours/week) I train about 10 hours/week. For Hawaii, I did 12-15 hours/week for about 5-6 weeks before a 2 week taper. The key workouts for me were rides/runs on the weekends. My rides ranged from 4 to 6 hours (I think I did two ~100+ mile rides total), and my runs were between 1 1/2 and 2 1/4 hours  (one run over 2 hours).

Our hours are about the same. The intensity is different – probably because of age differences (I’m 53) and goals (I’m slow.) <g I’m more relaxed on the longer stuff but really try to hammer the mid-week rides. I don’t hammer runs anymore (of any distance) because injuries and overuse show up quickly if I do. 12-15 hours sounds about right for late season peaking, with 10 being the standard for most of the summer. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 Great Floridian ‘99, ‘00

Response:

I’ve been a triathlete since 1991 and have done 50 plus tris, plus 5Ks, marathons, etc. Since 1997 I’ve been training for IM races and did my first in 1998 (Vineman). Since then I have done IM Canada twice.  I’m 53 and have a history as a slow cross country runner in high school and then a competitive ice speedskater before I started triathlon. Here are my actual training hours for 1997 through 2000:      1997     254 hours      1998     300 hours      1999     333 hours      2000     398 hours I’ve recently added regular master’s swim workouts so I may even hit 500 hours this year. Oh yeah, I’m an executive who works long weeks, has morning and evening meetings, am an active community volunteer and sing in the church choir. I did Vineman in 14.08, and my IM Canada times have been 13:50 and 14:13 (really tough conditions!). So I’m proof that you can have a life and do relatively decently in IM racing. With my training level my times are still coming down, so I fully expect to improve at IM Canada this year, condidions allowing. When do I train?  Most mornings early.  Some evenings.  And I save the long stuff for weekends. As some else in this thread said, the long stuff is most important for finishing IM races.  I would add that longer bricks help you improve your times. A side note: Joel Friel in the Inside Triathlon Training Diary suggests that IM athletes train 600-1200 hours a year (versus 400-600 hours a year for International distance racing).  I’m proof that this isn’t necessary (unless you are interested in better finishing times, as I am, hence my increasing training hours). Hope this helps. –Lee Crumbaugh (Tri-Hard) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours. As I asume it depends highly on the basic fitnesslevel one has, here are some information about me: Age 28, did last year one Marathon (5 hours/mountain) and one Short Distance Tri (3:04 / bike was done on MTB), main sport basketball one or two times a week training, will not be stopped for triathlon training (maybe the week prior to race). Right now I am working 1 hour on swimming technique, and do a short run (5km) and long bike (3 hours) or long run (20 km) and short bike (1hour) per week. I also wondered about the speed-gain from switching from MTB (already equipped with slicks) to a road/tri bike. Thanks for your opinions, I hope my english was not too terrible. You may answer in German too. Torsten

Response:

Are you joking? What do you mean when you say "front of the pack". The 10 guys at IMH who actually do train those crazy hours. The (very limited # of) guys for whom an 8-something hour race is standard operating procedure? The thread originated by someone asking for minimal time needed to finish an IM…not what consitutes normal training for a very small bunch of people… 1200 hours/year is more than sufficient for enabling a triathlete to finish in the front of the pack, not just finish…in fact, you’ll probably find that many fast ironman triathletes (even pros) don’t train anywhere near that amount…and most of those 300-400 mile weeks you hear about are for a few weeks (to ramp up), not for the entire year…and even those people take a month or two off each year… Somebody help me out here! There’s probably about 1,200 hours difference between what’s required for a Front-of-Pack finish, and a finish. — Mark

Response:

Exactly. I just wonder who is out there training 1200 hours/year?! That’s crazy. That’s over 20 hours/week all year long (w/no time off). That’s absurd. Most pros probably don’t train that much. Half that isn’t even necessary. Joel Friel probably knows a lot about training/racing, but with someone like that telling people they’ll have to train 600-1200 hours/year for an Ironman, it’s a wonder anyone even bothers to sign up for an IM…

There’s probably about 1,200 hours difference between what’s required for a Front-of-Pack finish, and a finish. — Mark

Response:

SNIP to train 600-1200 hours/year for an Ironman, it’s a wonder anyone even bothers to sign up for an IM… There’s probably about 1,200 hours difference between what’s required for a Front-of-Pack finish, and a finish. — Mark

Ain’t that the truth? If the Germans do what 300-400 miles a week on the bike, assuming what 22 mph? That’s up 18 hours just on the bike. Phil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours. As I asume it depends highly on the basic fitnesslevel one has, here are some information about me: Age 28, did last year one Marathon (5 hours/mountain) and one Short Distance Tri (3:04 / bike was done on MTB), main sport basketball one or two times a week training, will not be stopped for triathlon training (maybe the week prior to race). Right now I am working 1 hour on swimming technique, and do a short run (5km) and long bike (3 hours) or long run (20 km) and short bike (1hour) per week. I also wondered about the speed-gain from switching from MTB (already equipped with slicks) to a road/tri bike. Thanks for your opinions, I hope my english was not too terrible. You may answer in German too. Torsten

Response:

Hi Torsten, I have a job, a life and you have about my time on an Olympic. My life is not mainly focussedc around triathlon, but sustainably intertwined to it.  I’m almost 40, started tris in 1997, trained about 8-12 hrs/week last year (starting early Dec 1999), of which 40% bike, 20% run, 20% swim, 10% strength/stretch. Lots of bike commuting, 35-40 min session for a 9 miles commute, once/twice a day, 4-5 days/week, sometimes followed or preceeded by a 20-30 min run. Finished my first IM Lake Placid 2000 in 15:02 (1:40 swim, 7:30 bike, 5:30 run), sprinting at the finish and in control. Nutrition and hydration were tuned in training (3-5 hrs duathlons on weekends) and carefully executed at IM. I did well mostly on a lot of gatorade, a few gels, a couple of bars. Got a huge kick out of it and a nice finish shot to look at and verify that the guy in the picture it’s really me. I had 4 Half-Irons in my bag before IM, and a few Olympics. Some tips: – get a road bike with an aerobar and an aerobottle and get used to it – you’ll be out there 14-16 hrs (btw, close to the cutoff of 17 hrs) so   spread your workouts to 2-3 times throughout the day to raise your   methabolic rate and get your body used to work all day long at   low/medium intensity – learn your nutrition/hydration needs and practice them religiously: in   an IM they are as critical as technique in the three sports – ask yourself now if you _really_ want to do an IM, because at the start of   the run and way into it, the sirens of fatigue will start singing, and if   you stop, the mere thought of it, after all the investement, will haunt you   forever — only your steadfast motivation can get you through at those times – your long run is fine, use a camelback to hydrate with iced carbodrink   about every 10 min, the time it takes to go from one waterstation to   another (1 mile apart), throw in a gel every 10-15 min. – combine long bike/runs (3-5 hrs): it beats the boredom and gets you used to   transitions, hydrate every 5min on the bike – what I told you would be most effective if you had already a plan and knew   more about triathlon.  Your "minimal" training is way below what I   consider minimal for IM.  Could you survive and finish an IM? As of   now, I’d say: "Maybe".  IM is a huge time, money and emotional   investment anyway, however "minimal" you want to make it, and I   suggest you get to know triathlon better by reading some of the good   books around (Joe Friel’s or Sleamaker and Browning’s, for istance)   while committing your resources to a larger training volume — you   don’t want to stay "minimal" and fail, do you good luck roberto – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours. As I asume it depends highly on the basic fitnesslevel one has, here are some information about me: Age 28, did last year one Marathon (5 hours/mountain) and one Short Distance Tri (3:04 / bike was done on MTB), main sport basketball one or two times a week training, will not be stopped for triathlon training (maybe the week prior to race). Right now I am working 1 hour on swimming technique, and do a short run (5km) and long bike (3 hours) or long run (20 km) and short bike (1hour) per week. I also wondered about the speed-gain from switching from MTB (already equipped with slicks) to a road/tri bike. Thanks for your opinions, I hope my english was not too terrible. You may answer in German too. Torsten

Response:

you train about the same amount i did for my first half im. listen to the nutrition/hydration talk! i thought i listened, but hadn’t the benefit of training in race conditions (hotter than expected). i was 30 minutes ahead of my goal pace off the bike and feeling great (or so i thought). my legs felt heavy off the bike (nothing unexpected), but i noticed about a half mile into the run, that i was no longer sweating (and it was 90 degrees out)… oops.  i thought i had taken in plenty of fluids, but somehow hadn’t. luckily, half-vineman has a rest-stop EVERY mile on the run course; and i walked through every one of them taking in almost everything they had to offer well, after being 30 minutes ahead of my pace entering the run, i finshed in 5:36 (6 minutes off my goal), but was ecstatic to have finished considering i was in such poor shape entering the run. i’ve never done a full im, but would imagine you would need to add a few sessions where you are active for longer than your current sessions. not every week, but maybe every other, combine your long run and bike (but take them easy to start). best of luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours. As I asume it depends highly on the basic fitnesslevel one has, here are some information about me: Age 28, did last year one Marathon (5 hours/mountain) and one Short Distance Tri (3:04 / bike was done on MTB), main sport basketball one or two times a week training, will not be stopped for triathlon training (maybe the week prior to race). Right now I am working 1 hour on swimming technique, and do a short run (5km) and long bike (3 hours) or long run (20 km) and short bike (1hour) per week. I also wondered about the speed-gain from switching from MTB (already equipped with slicks) to a road/tri bike. Thanks for your opinions, I hope my english was not too terrible. You may answer in German too. Torsten

Response:

Most people either exaggerate their training hours, or they overtrain. In order to finish an ironman, you really don’t need to train much more than you do for shorter races, you just need to do your key workouts (long rides/runs on the weekends) and have a base level of fitness that allows you to do the longer rides/runs. I’ve done 2 ironman races (‘98 and ‘99). I started triathlons in 1997. I’m 27 years old. Most races I do are sprints and ODs. In ‘99, I did IMH on 12-15 hours/week of training/week. I had a full time job (45 hours/week or so). For much of the spring/summer (i don’t do much in the winter, maybe 5 hours/week) I train about 10 hours/week. For Hawaii, I did 12-15 hours/week for about 5-6 weeks before a 2 week taper. The key workouts for me were rides/runs on the weekends. My rides ranged from 4 to 6 hours (I think I did two ~100+ mile rides total), and my runs were between 1 1/2 and 2 1/4 hours  (one run over 2 hours). It’s important that you focus on quality (even for the long rides – spinning for 6 hours is useless – you should ride pretty hard, off and on). Swimming, running and biking during the week are more or less for maintenance when you work full time, although it’s good to get in some speedwork when you can find the time. Like you, I’m perplexed when people talk about how many hours they train. It seems many age-groupers are essentially pros who live off trust funds, or they’re masochistic and pay no attention to life outside of triathlon. Either that, or they just really like to train, which is fine. I love to train. But training 20 or 25 hours/week isn’t necessary (by any stretch of the imagination) to complete an ironman, and I’d imagine it takes the place of some other fun things you could do. That’s just my opinion…I’m sure you’ll get many more… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours. As I asume it depends highly on the basic fitnesslevel one has, here are some information about me: Age 28, did last year one Marathon (5 hours/mountain) and one Short Distance Tri (3:04 / bike was done on MTB), main sport basketball one or two times a week training, will not be stopped for triathlon training (maybe the week prior to race). Right now I am working 1 hour on swimming technique, and do a short run (5km) and long bike (3 hours) or long run (20 km) and short bike (1hour) per week. I also wondered about the speed-gain from switching from MTB (already equipped with slicks) to a road/tri bike. Thanks for your opinions, I hope my english was not too terrible. You may answer in German too. Torsten

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Question:

Could somebody please supply me with details of the organisers of the Edinburgh Marathon? Postal address / telephone number / fax number / email address / website in fact anything. TIA pete

Response:

Edinburgh Marathon

26th Sept- Sun Puma Edinburgh Marathon Entry Hotline: 0131 529 7882 Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

Response:

Edinburgh Marathon 26th Sept- Sun Puma Edinburgh Marathon Entry Hotline: 0131 529 7882 Ken

Ta Ken pete

Response:

Question:

everyday wheels:  something that will not break is the bottom line as well as cost. Weight and aerodynamics are secondary.  

Chris, I think you are on the money here. I would look for a set of wheeels that is inexpensive and durable. I would not waste any money on expensive tires. FWIW my current training set are a durable Mavic with $18 ea. 650c Vittoria’s and a Mr. Tuffy jamned in (who needs the headache of flats when training). In fact, what importance is there in aero, light, training wheels with expensive rubber? race wheels:  I am open to suggestions.  Aerodynamics and weight are important as well as durability.  

Many good wheels – seems that there was a great article on the Ausie Triathlon Magazine site – you may want to look up. I would suggest that you consider the terrain in which you will be racing as part of your selection. Consider aluminum vs. Carbon Fibre breaking surfaces . . . FWIW, I have Zipps, bought through Dave’s Wheel Works, mounted with Conti’ Comp GP Tubular’s. I like them, but would also like a Corima 4-Spoke rear and "V" ft. Big difference in $’s though. Good Training, Good Racing, Joe Joseph C. Foster "People can’t understand why a man runs. They don’t see any sport in it, argue that it lacks the sight-thrill of body contact, the color of rough conflict. Yet the conflict is there, more raw and challenging than any man versus man competition. In (Triathlon) it is man against himself, the cruelest of all opponents. The other (racers) are not the real enemies. His adversary lies deep within him, in his ability, with brain and heart, to control and master himself and his emotions." – Glenn Cunningham

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Chris,     I train on 28 spoke(bladed) Mavic cpx12’s with Dura Ace hubs. They have been very dependable and can be raced on…I used them for training and racing for 2 years. I now race on HED wheels. CX front and Deep rear. I have had no problems with them.

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Chris,         It is a really good habit to train with "Common" wheels to keep your competition ones in godd "health". Here is my example: Raced on 07/12, with my competition wheels. I always chnage them the day after to go back to training with training wheels. This time, as I had left them at the bike shop, thinking of changing as soon as possible after the race. This week end I had to train but no time to go to the shop. And of course, yesterday, I almost broke the 2 wheels (waiting for the diagnosis) in a road damage (hole??). I would have prefer to do it with my cxp 12 rather than with the Hed cx.         So, do not hesitate to have both kind of wheels and use only competition ones for the race.         Olivier – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chris,     I train on 28 spoke(bladed) Mavic cpx12’s with Dura Ace hubs. They have been very dependable and can be raced on…I used them for training and racing for 2 years. I now race on HED wheels. CX front and Deep rear. I have had no problems with them.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking to put together a new bike after this season and I am in the process of saving and selecting components.  I was wondering what wheels you all have on your bike for both racing and training.  I am looking for everyday wheels:  something that will not break is the bottom line as well as cost. Weight and aerodynamics are secondary.  I want a quality wheel that is worth every penny and can breeze through everyday training but will also be dependable for racing in an emergency.  What are you all using? race wheels:  I am open to suggestions.  Aerodynamics and weight are important as well as durability.  If it breaks then it isn’t gonna help me go fast is it?  Cost is not so important as I can always buy these later.  What is RST racing on? BTW almost every penny i have earned at my new job has been saved so that one day I can get a new bike.  IT’s looking like a fun christmas! Chris Plesko TriTeen P.S. boy am I glad I work in a bike shop

 I use 32 spoked wheels with wolber TX profile clincher rims for training. For racing I have a pair of Zipp 400’s purchased in 1993. They’re just great. I also purchased a Zipp 870 disc for racing. — Achim Wilfried Heinle

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I am looking to put together a new bike after this season and I am in the process of saving and selecting components.  I was wondering what wheels you all have on your bike for both racing and training.  I am looking for everyday wheels:  something that will not break is the bottom line as well as cost. Weight and aerodynamics are secondary.  I want a quality wheel that is worth every penny and can breeze through everyday training but will also be dependable for racing in an emergency.  What are you all using?

Here are bulletproof training wheels: Mavic MA-2 rims laced using 36 DT 15-16-16 butted spokes with brass nipples on the major-brand hub of your choice. If you are light, 32 spokes are fine. Mavic MA-2’s are still available, and are the non-anodized version of MA-40’s. The lack of anodizing makes them more durable, because anodizing is brittle and can cause microcracks in the surface that eventually become fatigue cracks around the spoke holes. The newer rims with the machined sidewalls create a rim with variable wall thickness–if it were not so, then the machining would be irrelevant (but still expensive). Bad either way, so the most durable rims will have non-machined sideways. Butted spokes allow the spokes to give a little in the strong middle part to save fatigue stress on the fatigue-prone ends. Such wheels appropriately tensioned and stress relieved will last the life of the rim (with reasonable pot-hole avoidance, the end of that life is when the brakes wear through the sidewalls) with minimal truing. Spoke breakage will only occur with defective spokes, which is to say maybe one in the life of the rims. When the rims are dead, you can lace new rims on the old spokes–they are still strong. I know people who have laced many rims on the same wheels, and they are still going strong. You can build these wheels yourself if you have the time and inclination. It’s not hard, but it requires patience and knowledge. The knowledge comes from Jobst Brandt’s book _The Bicycle Wheel_, published by Avocet Press, and available at real big bookstores (but not the chains) or from Colorado Cyclist. That book will tell you how to lace, tension, stress-relieve, and true the wheel. race wheels:  I am open to suggestions.  Aerodynamics and weight are important as well as durability.  If it breaks then it isn’t gonna help me go fast is it?  Cost is not so important as I can always buy these later.  What is RST racing on?

For triathlon, aerodynamic efficiency is much more important than weight. I have two sets of Spinergy’s: Aerodynamic, moderate weight, and durable for me. But others report a variety of durability and possibly quality-control problems. Specialized tri-spoke wheels are also aero. Some will argue, and will back it up with their data, that HED Deep rims with bladed spokes are the way to go, but I’m not a big fan of bladed spokes. If cost is no object, the Nimble wheels seem to be the lightest and most aero wheels around (if you believe their test results), but durability is still an unknown. Once you see the prices, you might find out that cost is more of an object than you think. In which case, look for a used set of Spinergy’s, and use them only for racing. You might have to have new bearings pressed into the hubs, but this is only about a $75 job from what I understand. With with new bearings, you should be able to get a set of race wheels for under $500. BTW almost every penny i have earned at my new job has been saved so that one day I can get a new bike.  IT’s looking like a fun christmas! Chris Plesko TriTeen P.S. boy am I glad I work in a bike shop

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

Response:

I am looking to put together a new bike after this season and I am in the process of saving and selecting components.  I was wondering what wheels you all have on your bike for both racing and training.  I am looking for everyday wheels:  something that will not break is the bottom line as well as cost. Weight and aerodynamics are secondary.  I want a quality wheel that is worth every penny and can breeze through everyday training but will also be dependable for racing in an emergency.  What are you all using? race wheels:  I am open to suggestions.  Aerodynamics and weight are important as well as durability.  If it breaks then it isn’t gonna help me go fast is it?  Cost is not so important as I can always buy these later.  What is RST racing on? BTW almost every penny i have earned at my new job has been saved so that one day I can get a new bike.  IT’s looking like a fun christmas! Chris Plesko TriTeen P.S. boy am I glad I work in a bike shop

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Question:

Any RST’ers doing the Spud Triathlon in Southern Md. on Sunday?  There is race day sign up I believe for those of you who procrastinate! Greg Nelson

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I’ll be there. I’ve never done the race so I don’t know where to meet.  I’ll wear my RST singlet so say hello if you see me. Stacy Hills Reston, VA

|Any RST’ers doing the Spud Triathlon in Southern Md. on Sunday?  There is race |day sign up I believe for those of you who procrastinate! | |Greg Nelson

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: Any RST’ers doing the Spud Triathlon in Southern Md. on Sunday?  There is race : day sign up I believe for those of you who procrastinate! I’ll be there, but doing a relay since I’m fighting a charming virus.  I should be pretty easy to spot in the matching TEAM RST-IMC jersey and shorts.  ;-) — Jason Mayfield, Arlington VA Persist, Persevere, Deny, Pursue, Pain, Survive, Ignore, Endure, Strive, Laugh, Cry, Live, Prevail, Scream, Sweat, Bleed, Sustain, Learn, Ascend, Give, Get, GO!  72 Days Until Ironman Canada ‘98

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I’ll be there volunteering. You’ll recognize me as the short guy dragging his left foot, sort of Igor style, since it’s broken. I _think_ one of my duties will be to tell you which chute do slow your bike down into – don’t hit me! However, I’m hoping for female body marking duty! Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Any RST’ers doing the Spud Triathlon in Southern Md. on Sunday?  There is race day sign up I believe for those of you who procrastinate! Greg Nelson

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Question:

I definitely have been stricken with the IM virus in a big way.  Last night I set out on a bike ride to take advantage of the extra hour of daylight and get a second training session in for the day.  I planned to ride about 26 miles in 3 laps around a circuit I have in the neighborhood.  I got 18 miles into the ride and suddenly there

Question:

For Sale: Merlin Suspension Mountain Bike – will sell bare frame, frame and fork or as complete bike with XT group.  Must sell, all offers considered.. E-mail for more information. Merlin Mountain – will sell bare frame or as complete bike with Mavic group, Grip shift, rigid fork.  Must sell, all offers considered. E-mail for more information. Both of these bikes are in excellent condition. Jeff Devlin

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For Sale: Merlin Suspension Mountain Bike – will sell bare frame, frame and fork or as complete bike with XT group.  Must sell, all offers considered.. E-mail for more information. Merlin Mountain – will sell bare frame or as complete bike with Mavic group, Grip shift, rigid fork.  Must sell, all offers considered. E-mail for more information. Both of these bikes are in excellent condition. Jeff Devlin

Size? Price? Sheesh. Anthony — "Things that upset a terrier may pass virtually unnoticed by a Great Dane."       Smiley Blanton

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I admire you as a triathlete,  I am getting tired of you advertising your used goods on RST  since I can’t recall you participating in this newsgroup with comments, advice or race commentary. Stick to  rec.bicycles.marketplace if your only interest is to post articles for sale. This is particularly appropriate for your post  since none of the articles for sale are remotely related to triathlon.

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Question:

Both UltraCoach and PCCoach are available in Australia – but I’m not going to shell for either until I’ve evaluated the demos and heard some user tales

The Athlete’s Diary is also available in Australia; check our Web page for distributor information as well as a free trial version you can download in reasonable amounts of time (it’s one-tenth the size of competitive software). Steve Patt Stevens Creek Software   http://www.stevenscreek.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m finally going to pop for some software for a log book.  Anyone had good results with their’s? Thanks, Tod Meinke I’d appreciate similar advice. Both UltraCoach and PCCoach are available in Australia – but I’m not going to shell for either until I’ve evaluated the demos and heard some user tales Steve

I have an excellent resource for you. Try Velocipede.  It can be found at: http://www.fysel.unit.no/dahls/dahls.html   You can log your training and racing.  I’ve been a user for a year now and can give you more specific recommendations if you wish.  Inexpensive at $50 for full version.  Download the demo which is good for 100 entries. Good luck, Enrique Garibay

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m finally going to pop for some software for a log book.  Anyone had good results with their’s? Thanks, Tod Meinke I’d appreciate similar advice. Both UltraCoach and PCCoach are available in Australia – but I’m not going to shell for either until I’ve evaluated the demos and heard some user tales Steve — |               Stephen "Trib" Collins              | |Analyst/Programmer/Webmaster, Computer Law Services| |13 Curtin Place CURTIN ACT 2605 Australia (GMT +10)| |        +61 6 2826888  Fax:   +61 6 2828282        | |     TRIATHLON!    o  "The best view of one’s      | |            __o   <|  soul is from beyond the     | |          _ < _  _   edge, looking back."        | |   __^o_ (_)/ (_)  /                               |

I have had good luck with ProTrainer. Look at http://www.indy.net/~pauld/HomePage.html

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I’m finally going to pop for some software for a log book.  Anyone had good results with their’s? Thanks, Tod Meinke

I’d appreciate similar advice. Both UltraCoach and PCCoach are available in Australia – but I’m not going to shell for either until I’ve evaluated the demos and heard some user tales Steve — |               Stephen "Trib" Collins              | |Analyst/Programmer/Webmaster, Computer Law Services| |13 Curtin Place CURTIN ACT 2605 Australia (GMT +10)| |        +61 6 2826888  Fax:   +61 6 2828282        | |     TRIATHLON!    o  "The best view of one’s      | |            __o   <|  soul is from beyond the     | |          _ < _  _   edge, looking back."        | |   __^o_ (_)/ (_)  /                               |

Response:

I’m finally going to pop for some software for a log book.  Anyone had good results with their’s? Thanks, Tod Meinke

Response:

I’m finally going to pop for some software for a log book.  Anyone had good results with their’s? Thanks, Tod Meinke

Tod      I have never used any training software but there is a web site somewhere by Ultracoach, I think .  It’s has mike pigg as a sponsor.   Anyway I’ve never used it but you can download a free trial of it onto your computer and give it a go.  Sorry I don’t know the website but it is in the back of Triathlete mag. TriVet

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Question:

: My favorite?  Well the most unusual… : I saw an armadillo.  The only thing strange about that was that I was : riding in Georgia.  We call them "possum on the half-shell".  This guy was : a LONG way from home… Isn’t that the normal state for an armadillo? I have never seen one not in the flat mode. — Tom Roehr       "The Javanator"

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I was riding my bike on a long straight stretch of road that parallels a set of railroad tracks… when I hear a rustling noise in some bushes.   I apparently frightened a hare, that took off running down the r.r. tracks. I was heading into a stiff headwind at 19 mi/hr, but that darn hare must have been going over 20 miles/hr. Who says the tortoise beats the hare anyways? The hare did have a better aero advantage. I wonder how fast he could have gone with aerobars, and a disc wheel? Janet

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While out for a ride on the country roads of North Carolina, I came across the darndest irony I’ll probably ever see.  Flattened on the road not two feet from each other was a turtle AND a rabbit!!  The best that I can figure is that when it comes to crossing the road, the chicken is the favorite. Cameron

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I was riding my bike on a long straight stretch of road that parallels a set of railroad tracks… when I hear a rustling noise in some bushes. I apparently frightened a hare, that took off running down the r.r. tracks. I was heading into a stiff headwind at 19 mi/hr, but that darn hare must have been going over 20 miles/hr. Who says the tortoise beats the hare anyways? The hare did have a better aero advantage. I wonder how fast he could have gone with aerobars, and a disc wheel? Janet

…and if he had shaved all his hair!  :) Rod

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While out for a ride on the country roads of North Carolina, I came across the darndest irony I’ll probably ever see.  Flattened on the road not two feet from each other was a turtle AND a rabbit!!  The best that I can figure is that when it comes to crossing the road, the chicken is the favorite.

But why? Is the chicken’s superior transit ability based on wanting to get to the other side more? David PS Great story, Cameron. I would have been mumbling to myself for days.

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My two three favorite pieces of road kill noticed while out riding are: A dead bloated sheep with it’s legs tied together (???) A domestic type chicken (white) Hedgehogs (while touring in New Zealand, apparently they were introduced. Stuart J. P.S. Speaking of roadkill the last new scientist has a breakdown of UK pedestrian deaths in ‘95 and last on the list after cars, trucks, buses and motorcycles was bicycles. From the graph it appears that 3 or 4 pedestrians were killed by bikes in the uK last year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody see all the squashed toads/frogs while running the dams at this year’s Boulder Peak Triathlon? They looked like powerbars with legs…

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: A dead bloated sheep with it’s legs tied together (???) I guess they didn’t want it running away?  ;-) Without a doubt my favourite piece of roadkill was seen on a century ride this summer.  I kid you not, right there on the side of the road, smashed down the middle, in the middle of rural Maryland was… …an allegator.  About 3ft long and flat as a pancake in the middle.  Go figure… — Jason Mayfield     Arlington, VA http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa Sick & Twisted Site of the Day: http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa/sick.html "Do or do not, there is no ‘try’"  - Yoda     *9* Days Until Ironman Canada

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Anybody see all the squashed toads/frogs while running the dams at this year’s Boulder Peak Triathlon? They looked like powerbars with legs…

Response:

The fact that it;s legs were tied together really worried me, maybe there were New Zealanders nearby! Stuart J. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : A dead bloated sheep with it’s legs tied together (???) I guess they didn’t want it running away?  ;-) Without a doubt my favourite piece of roadkill was seen on a century ride this summer.  I kid you not, right there on the side of the road, smashed down the middle, in the middle of rural Maryland was… …an allegator.  About 3ft long and flat as a pancake in the middle.  Go figure… — Jason Mayfield     Arlington, VA http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa Sick & Twisted Site of the Day: http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa/sick.html "Do or do not, there is no ‘try’"  - Yoda     *9* Days Until Ironman Canada

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My favorite?  Well the most unusual… I saw an armadillo.  The only thing strange about that was that I was riding in Georgia.  We call them "possum on the half-shell".  This guy was a LONG way from home…

Response:

My favorite?  Well the most unusual… I saw an armadillo.  The only thing strange about that was that I was riding in Georgia.  We call them "possum on the half-shell".  This guy was a LONG way from home…

God, I wish….. armadillos are now quite common in Ga and Florida. They dig up our lawn all the time. Why did the chicken cross the road? To show an armadillo it could be done. Interesting roadkill, huh?  Alligator? Seen that. Wild Pig? Seen that. How about fiddler crabs? Hit one of those and you’ll puncture for sure. Ahh, the sunny south….. WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Advertise your race. FTP Race Apps, FAQ   http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

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Question:

Anyone have any maps or online resources about running in Cincinnati.  I will be spending about 2months there this coming summer and need some info. Any info about local clubs would be appreciated too. Joe

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     If you go out on the streets in Cinncinnati, you’ll be running for your life. Steve McDonald

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Anyone have any maps or online resources about running in Cincinnati.  I will be spending about 2months there this coming summer and need some info. Any info about local clubs would be appreciated too.

Cincinnati is one of the places that Runners World wrote about.  If this link doesn’t work, just go to their site and click "On the Road". http://www.runnersworld.com/home/0,1300,1-51-57-651,00.html I don’t know anything about it firsthand, but I thought I’d at least pass on the link.

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Anyone have any maps or online resources about running in Cincinnati.  I will be spending about 2months there this coming summer and need some info. Any info about local clubs would be appreciated too. Joe

Joe, Go to the local running authority:  Bob Roncker’s Running Spot.  They have a Cincinnati Running page – http://www.runningspot.com/CintiRunning/.  Check out the local links as well as the Weekly Running/Walking Groups.  When in town, you can pick up route maps from the Running Spot.  The Little Miami Bike Trail is one of the more scenic and popular running paths. If you get into town around May 2, you can tour the city via the Flying Pig marathon – http://www.flyingpigmarathon.com/. Mike

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you know you could substitute any large cities name that sentence and it would work. jOe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      If you go out on the streets in Cinncinnati, you’ll be running for your life. Steve McDonald

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2 months in Cincinnati?  You poor bastard.  I only know of one fun thing to do in Cincinnati.  Packing your bag, and travelling to a better town.

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I’m a runner from Cincinnati…what questions do you have?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      If you go out on the streets in Cinncinnati, you’ll be running for your life. Steve McDonald

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I’m a runner from Cincinnati…what questions do you have?

Why do you live there?

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I was born here.  Not so bad during the summer but hate the fall and winter.  Anyone up for relocating me to say…San Diego or Atlanta?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a runner from Cincinnati…what questions do you have? Why do you live there?

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I was born here.  Not so bad during the summer but hate the fall and winter.  Anyone up for relocating me to say…San Diego or Atlanta?

Well I was concerned for your well-being and mental condition, but since you WANT to leave I guess you’re ok.

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I’ll be there this summer from June to August and I’m looking for some good routes and places to run.  What are places to avoid due to traffic or road conditions?  I’ll be training for a marathon then so I’ll need some longer loops or courses to do. Right now I live in Milwaukee so I can’t imagine running there is too different? Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Joe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a runner from Cincinnati…what questions do you have?      If you go out on the streets in Cinncinnati, you’ll be running for your life. Steve McDonald

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I’ll be there this summer from June to August and I’m looking for some good routes and places to run.  What are places to avoid ?

Cincinnati is the best thing to avoid. I once spent a month there one weekend.

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I’ll be there this summer from June to August and I’m looking for some good routes and places to run.  What are places to avoid due to traffic or road conditions?  I’ll be training for a marathon then so I’ll need some longer loops or courses to do. Right now I live in Milwaukee so I can’t imagine running there is too different? Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Joe

Joe, A premature welcome to Cincinnati! Try some of the local running groups.  I have run with the Saturday Morning Running Group (SMRG) in the past.  Most of them are marathoners and will run 10-15 miles starting at 7am.  See the SMRG link here http://www.runningspot.com/CintiRunning/RunningGroups.htm. As for courses for long runs, your best bet is to stay off of the roads and stick to the paved running/biking trails.  Sharon Woods, Winton Woods, Miami Whitewater Forest all have paved loops.  My preference is Miami Whitewater. It has a 7.8 mile outer loop (Shaker Trace) and a 1.3 mile inner loop path through forest, fields and marsh (not much shade).  A horse trail parallels the main trail so on an early morning run you are likely to be passing wild turkey, ducks, horses and deer.  There is a portable toilet about half-way around and you’ll have to carry your own water although they just installed a drinking fountain at the nature overlook, about 2 miles from the parking area.  The two drawbacks are that it is 15 minutes west of downtown just off of I-74 and there is a $1 entry fee for this county park ($3 for an annual pass which covers Winton Woods, Sharon Woods and several other parks). Another favorite is the Little Miami Bike Trail.  This is a flat 72 mile path that occupies an abandoned rail line and follows the Little Miami River.  It is primarily a Southwest to Northeast route so shade is good for most of the day.  It starts/ends about 15 minutes east of downtown, in Milford.  This Sunday I’ll be competing in Morgan’s Little Miami Triathlon which uses part of the bike trail for the 10k run. A little closer to town is the 5.5 mile path at Lunken Airport/Playfield. Just a few minutes east of downtown, it loops around a small municipal airport, ball fields, and a golf course.  Not very well shaded.  Water and restroom facilities are available at the golf shop and airport terminal. Downtown, there is a riverwalk and pedestrian bridge that takes you over the Ohio River into Kentucky.  Not sure of the length of this route though. Go to Bob Roncker’s Running Spot http://www.runningspot.com/ when you get into town.  They would have the most concentrated amount of local running routes/maps. A premature welcome to Cincinnati! Mike

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