Question:

consistency, specificity, the long run, variety all important; when you have a great base of consistent running and then start introducing specificity (realistic race pace – come in the form of repetitions on road, trails or the dreaded track} improvement is enormous; consistency is so important; listening to your body; planning where you are going short term and long term goals; the long run is important; run for time not how fast; alternate hard days with easy days and run with a friend; complex, yes what works for one does not necessarily work for all but there are principles; consistency; the long run and specificity of the correct type at the correct time; listening to your body, all important; we are all experts when we know what works for us.

Response:

Perfect! You’ve condensed volumes of running literature down to one sentence. Well said. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – consistency, specificity, the long run, variety all important; when you have a great base of consistent running and then start introducing specificity (realistic race pace – come in the form of repetitions on road, trails or the dreaded track} improvement is enormous; consistency is so important; listening to your body; planning where you are going short term and long term goals; the long run is important; run for time not how fast; alternate hard days with easy days and run with a friend; complex, yes what works for one does not necessarily work for all but there are principles; consistency; the long run and specificity of the correct type at the correct time; listening to your body, all important; we are all experts when we know what works for us.

Response:

"Bill Roberto" 1) Does anyone else run this way? Possibly… who knows?

There have been short articles in Runners World about Streak Runners, iow, runners that run everyday for long periods of time (ie years). As others note, you need to at least aternate between long/hard days and short/easy days. 2) If I were to run 3 miles a day for 20 days in a row, take 5 days off, then run a marathon would consistent training at low mileage make up for high mileage training? Not unless you plan on running three miles of the marathon, coming back the next day and running three more…. etc. cheers,

Specificity of training is important, especially at the far ends of the running spectrum (sprints like the mile or 5k versus long distance like the half marathon and beyond). Your training plan might work for running a 10K, but likely is going to leave you struggling to finish a marathon. HTH,    Ed

Response:

Hi Bill! Bill Roberto: Lately I am testing my consistency. I run 3 miles, the same route every run.

This is not an efficient way of training, but that may of course not be your goal. Now I am going to see how many days in a row I can go. I am at 25 days today. I have two questions: 1) Does anyone else run this way?

Yes.  http://www.ultramarathonworld.com/uw_streak.htm If I were to run 3 miles a day for 20 days in a row, take 5 days off, then run a marathon would consistent training at low mileage make up for high mileage training?

Are you serious about that?  Many Marathon runners train daily.  So how could your consistency make up for anything? If you want to train for a Marathon with the lowest possible effort, you could possibly reduce your training to three time a week (I would not recommend that), but long runs (let’s say 2.5h at least) would still be necessary. Greetings, Carsten — Carsten Schultz (2:38, 33:47), FB Mathematik, FU Berlin http://carsten.fu-mathe-team.de/ PGP/GPG key on the pgp.net key servers, fingerprint on my home page.

Response:

I have been on a running kick for going on 3 years. I am 43, and have lifted weights, boxed, surfed, swam, ran, and all kinds of other physical fitness nut stuff pretty much my whole life. Lately I am testing my consistency. I run 3 miles, the same route every run. My time is 22:00 at my fastest and 24:00 when I relax. I usually average between 23:00 and 23:30. I started running 7 days in a row, take a day or two off then do another 7 days. After a while I started doing 14 days in a row with a day or two off. Now I am going to see how many days in a row I can go. I am at 25 days today. I have two questions: 1) Does anyone else run this way? and 2) If I were to run 3

There was a post a few (months?) back about a guy who hasn’t missed a day of running in some large number of years.  About 5 miles per day, every day.  Pretty cool.  Not for me, but it makes him happy, so cool. I occasionally play with the number of consecutive days I can run, but not as a normal way of training – more just to learn at what point I break.  I’ve never run more than about 10 days in a row, and almost never do more than 6, however.  With a decent mix of triathlon training, I can about three weeks without a break from serious workouts, but start to get achy, grumpy, and tired and near injury after that. This is on a much higher diet of training than you’re discussing, however – 3 miles per day would be pretty easy to sustain. miles a day for 20 days in a row, take 5 days off, then run a marathon would consistent training at low mileage make up for high mileage training?

No.  It would be worse in a whole host of ways.  There are vastly better ways to allocate 21 miles per week if you want to run a marathon.  Throw in cross-training on the days off, scale that back to 3 days a week, and you could probably approach a decent half-marathon.  But there are even better ways to allocate 40 miles per week if you want to run a decent marathon, and ways to allocate 60+ miles per week if you want to start running a good marathon. There are exceptions to this, but I wouldn’t count on being one of them unless you have prior experience that suggests you can go run a marathon on near zero training.   -Dave — work: dga – at – lcs.mit.edu                   me:  angio – at – pobox.com       MIT Laboratory for Computer Science           http://www.angio.net/       (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed…)       bulk emailers:  I do not accept unsolicited email.  Do not mail me.

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Dont take advice from treadmill joggers. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been on a running kick for going on 3 years. I am 43, and have lifted weights, boxed, surfed, swam, ran, and all kinds of other physical fitness nut stuff pretty much my whole life. Lately I am testing my consistency. I run 3 miles, the same route every run. My time is 22:00 at my fastest and 24:00 when I relax. If a 7:20 pace is an all-out effort for 5k,  training at an 8:00 pace defies conventional wisdom (which would point to a pace of about 8:50-9:20 or so) I usually average between 23:00 and 23:30. I started running 7 days in a row, take a day or two off then do another 7 days. After a while I started doing 14 days in a row with a day or two off. Now I am going to see how many days in a row I can go. I am at 25 days today. Whatever that’s working on, it’s not "consistency". I have two questions: 1) Does anyone else run this way? I think a lot of runners (most beginners, for example) adopt the following training style — I think the folliowing is worth reflecting on even though it may not be completely applicable to what you’re doing — They have "their route" and they run it every day, at either race pace or very close to race pace. They frequently run "PRs" on their training route, and lack a proper mental separation between base training, speed work, and racing.  In fact some may not even enter races, or perform speed work — they sort of jumble those three things all into their training schedules.  The fact that they don’t include longer runs in their schedule gives them a poor perspective of what a proper training pace is — because it’s relatively easy to hold ones 15k pace for a 5k run, wheras one quickly realises that a 15k pace is actually pretty fast if the schedule includes runs of that distance. I like to measure consistency in months then years, not in days. Taking a day off, a week off, or even a month off does not hurt in the big scheme of things. Variation over the course of 1 week is a good thing, and you will see that almost any training program that works with a milage of 50mpw or less includes rest days, and any training program advanced enough to amount to 20mpw or more will include at least one long run a week. and 2) If I were to run 3 miles a day for 20 days in a row, take 5 days off, The idea of alternating streaking with long rest periods is interesting, it’s a sort of overreach/compensation idea. But it’s also risky. then run a marathon would consistent training You’re confusing lack of proper rest with "consistency". "Consistency" is (IMO) when you maintain a reasonable base of training over a period of several consecutive months. at low mileage IMO, "consistent training at low milage" is a euphemism for "consistently poor training". make up for high mileage training? Important disclaimer — I haven’t run a marathon. I’ve run races up to 10 miles. So I’m going to talk about what I know about running longer races, 10k – 10 miles. So I’ll talk in context of preparing for these. Milage is a foundation, a base on which you build other sorts of training. The different races are like different types of houses. You need a foundation to build any race performance, whether it’s a marathon or a 5k. Once you lay down the foundation, you add on the rest of the stuff — for a 1 mile race, this consists mostly of speed work whereas for a marathon, the long run is primary. For the 5k to 10 mile runs I usually compete in, you need a blend of long runs and speed work. The long run in itself makes up a lot of milage, but it deserves to be considered separately from base training — it is more demanding than base training (especially if you’re preparing for a marathon, and logging 20 milers), and it has additional physiological benefits to an "ordinary" base run, which will usually be 30min to 1hr for most runners. So the short answer to your question is that you can’t really compensate for not having a training foundation (because other training like speed work and long runs will pay dividends conditionally on that foundation). Cheers,

Response:

I have been on a running kick for going on 3 years. I am 43, and have lifted weights, boxed, surfed, swam, ran, and all kinds of other physical fitness nut stuff pretty much my whole life. Lately I am testing my consistency. I run 3 miles, the same route every run. My time is 22:00 at my fastest and 24:00 when I relax. I usually average between 23:00 and 23:30. I started running 7 days in a row, take a day or two off then do another 7 days. After a while I started doing 14 days in a row with a day or two off. Now I am going to see how many days in a row I can go. I am at 25 days today. I have two questions: 1) Does anyone else run this way? and 2) If I were to run 3 miles a day for 20 days in a row, take 5 days off, then run a marathon would consistent training at low mileage make up for high mileage training?

Response:

Only if you ran it over 9 days. — Colm

 If I were to run 3 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – miles a day for 20 days in a row, take 5 days off, then run a marathon would consistent training at low mileage make up for high mileage training?

Response:

"Bill Roberto" 1) Does anyone else run this way?

Possibly… who knows? 2) If I were to run 3 miles a day for 20 days in a row, take 5 days off, then run a marathon would consistent training at low mileage make up for high mileage training?

Not unless you plan on running three miles of the marathon, coming back the next day and running three more…. etc. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org

Response:

I have been on a running kick for going on 3 years. I am 43, and have lifted weights, boxed, surfed, swam, ran, and all kinds of other physical fitness nut stuff pretty much my whole life. Lately I am testing my consistency. I run 3 miles, the same route every run. My time is 22:00 at my fastest and 24:00 when I relax. I usually average between 23:00 and 23:30. I started running 7 days in a row, take a day or two off then do another 7 days. After a while I started doing 14 days in a row with a day or two off. Now I am going to see how many days in a row I can go. I am at 25 days today. I have two questions: 1) Does anyone else run this way? and 2) If I were to run 3 miles a day for 20 days in a row, take 5 days off, then run a marathon would consistent training at low mileage make up for high mileage training?

NO. And three miles a day is not enough to run a good 10K. Running 20 days in a row is just not a big deal at all, especially at three miles. Many runners run over 10 miles a day way over a year. Doctor Jack Foster ran into his 40’s without missing a day, including the day he had appendicitis surgery.

Response:

I have been on a running kick for going on 3 years. I am 43, and have lifted weights, boxed, surfed, swam, ran, and all kinds of other physical fitness nut stuff pretty much my whole life. Lately I am testing my consistency. I run 3 miles, the same route every run. My time is 22:00 at my fastest and 24:00 when I relax.

If a 7:20 pace is an all-out effort for 5k,  training at an 8:00 pace defies conventional wisdom (which would point to a pace of about 8:50-9:20 or so) I usually average between 23:00 and 23:30. I started running 7 days in a row, take a day or two off then do another 7 days. After a while I started doing 14 days in a row with a day or two off. Now I am going to see how many days in a row I can go. I am at 25 days today.

Whatever that’s working on, it’s not "consistency". I have two questions: 1) Does anyone else run this way?

I think a lot of runners (most beginners, for example) adopt the following training style — I think the folliowing is worth reflecting on even though it may not be completely applicable to what you’re doing — They have "their route" and they run it every day, at either race pace or very close to race pace. They frequently run "PRs" on their training route, and lack a proper mental separation between base training, speed work, and racing.  In fact some may not even enter races, or perform speed work — they sort of jumble those three things all into their training schedules.  The fact that they don’t include longer runs in their schedule gives them a poor perspective of what a proper training pace is — because it’s relatively easy to hold ones 15k pace for a 5k run, wheras one quickly realises that a 15k pace is actually pretty fast if the schedule includes runs of that distance. I like to measure consistency in months then years, not in days. Taking a day off, a week off, or even a month off does not hurt in the big scheme of things. Variation over the course of 1 week is a good thing, and you will see that almost any training program that works with a milage of 50mpw or less includes rest days, and any training program advanced enough to amount to 20mpw or more will include at least one long run a week. and 2) If I were to run 3 miles a day for 20 days in a row, take 5 days off,

The idea of alternating streaking with long rest periods is interesting, it’s a sort of overreach/compensation idea. But it’s also risky. then run a marathon would consistent training

You’re confusing lack of proper rest with "consistency". "Consistency" is (IMO) when you maintain a reasonable base of training over a period of several consecutive months. at low mileage

IMO, "consistent training at low milage" is a euphemism for "consistently poor training". make up for high mileage training?

Important disclaimer — I haven’t run a marathon. I’ve run races up to 10 miles. So I’m going to talk about what I know about running longer races, 10k – 10 miles. So I’ll talk in context of preparing for these. Milage is a foundation, a base on which you build other sorts of training. The different races are like different types of houses. You need a foundation to build any race performance, whether it’s a marathon or a 5k. Once you lay down the foundation, you add on the rest of the stuff — for a 1 mile race, this consists mostly of speed work whereas for a marathon, the long run is primary. For the 5k to 10 mile runs I usually compete in, you need a blend of long runs and speed work. The long run in itself makes up a lot of milage, but it deserves to be considered separately from base training — it is more demanding than base training (especially if you’re preparing for a marathon, and logging 20 milers), and it has additional physiological benefits to an "ordinary" base run, which will usually be 30min to 1hr for most runners. So the short answer to your question is that you can’t really compensate for not having a training foundation (because other training like speed work and long runs will pay dividends conditionally on that foundation). Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Question:

I am curious which stroke is most often used in triathalons. At work, each year we conduct a small triathalon. I am a strong runner, but a very weak swimmer. The only pool within 20 miles is always packed with toddlers, so I did not train in the water. Obviously, I thought I was going to drown. I tried each stroke, and switched as I tired. Which single stroke should I work on for next year?

caveat: I ‘m a newbie, so take this for what it’s worth… Most people swim freestyle. With proper instruction, it’s fast, no too awfully draining (as opposed to,say, the butterfly) and allows you to see where you’re going. Some do breaststroke, which is easier on the CV system, but is slower. I’d recommend getting some good instruction. Swimming is all technique, or at least a great portion of it is technique. I cut 2.5 minutes off my 400 m simply by improving my form in the water, and it took less out of me besides. That said, I’m still a sucky swimmer in races, but I’m improving! Amy — Amy Snyder Hale, GSR Dept of Geology & Planetary Science

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I am curious which stroke is most often used in triathalons. At work, each year we conduct a small triathalon. I am a strong runner, but a very weak swimmer. The only pool within 20 miles is always packed with toddlers, so I did not train in the water. Obviously, I thought I was going to drown. I tried each stroke, and switched as I tired. Which single stroke should I work on for next year?

Response:

I am curious which stroke is most often used in triathalons. At work, each year we conduct a small triathalon. I am a strong runner, but a very weak swimmer. The only pool within 20 miles is always packed with toddlers, so I did not train in the water. Obviously, I thought I was going to drown. I tried each stroke, and switched as I tired. Which single stroke should I work on for next year?

Everyone does Freestyle since it is the fastest. If you want to learn how to freestyle, then check out www.totalimmersion.net and order a video.  If you don’t have a lot of time to put into learning how to swim though, you might as well just learn side stroke because if you are a lousy swimmer, side stroke is probably just as fast as freestyle and it conserves the least amount of energy while allowing you to spend most of the swim with your head above the water so you can breath and navigate easily.

Response:

I am curious which stroke is most often used in triathalons. At work, each year we conduct a small triathalon. I am a strong runner, but a very weak swimmer. The only pool within 20 miles is always packed with toddlers, so I did not train in the water. Obviously, I thought I was going to drown. I tried each stroke, and switched as I tired. Which single stroke should I work on for next year?

Most people do the crawl because it’s the fastest (other than the butterfly, which almost no one could maintain for the distance of a tri swim). But you’re allowed to do any stroke you want. I’ve improved a lot with the Total Immersion book; you might want to get a copy. Vanessa "still not a great swimmer though" Smith

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I am curious which stroke is most often used in triathalons. At work,

each year If you are in tight quarters, be careful with breastroke or any stroke where you will "frog kick".  I second the sidestroke suggestion. we conduct a small triathalon. I am a strong runner, but a very weak

swimmer. Frustrates my running partners to no end.  They are MUCH better runners, so they think they MUST be proportionally more fit than I am. Then, we do a pool workout… Sad part is, on race day, their wetsuits cancel out my edge. Good Luck and Patience to You! rsquared Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Like everybody is saying, use the australian crawl. However, when I started, I can remember doing more than a little bit of breast-stroke when I’d get tired.  You should try to crawl, but have a backup stroke that you can do all day if you have to. Good Luck.

Response:

I am curious which stroke is most often used in triathalons. At work, each year we conduct a small triathalon. I am a strong runner, but a very weak swimmer. The only pool within 20 miles is always packed with toddlers, so I did not train in the water. Obviously, I thought I was going to drown. I tried each stroke, and switched as I tired. Which single stroke should I work on for next year?

Well, as people have already said, the crawl/australian crawl/freestyle (All the same stroke) is almost unanimously the choice, since it offers both speed and navigability. I have used the breaststroke on occasion when I needed a quick break. Backstroke is good for breathing, sucks for navigation. Fly is good for speed and navigation, but is a tough stroke to do/learn, and I dont know anyone that can keep it up for a tri distance. All that said, have you contacted the pool and asked if they have adult only/lap swim times? If it is the only pool in 20 miles, they should have that, maybe even a sponsored team (With a coach!! he he) that you could get some practice with. And, failing all that, is there another pool (Maybe 30 miles…whats another 10? ) just a little farther… John "Ad astra per aspera" "A rough road leads to the stars"    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

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Question:

Heat is bad, Humidity is bad, Cold (above 0′F) is bearable, Snow is bad. Although I know some runners who love hot, humid days. Bill

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I guess i have a high body temperature or something (possibly my body has adapted to living in Buffalo), but i generally dislike running in temps. above 80 F. It takes all my energy away. I once went for a run during a vacation in florida, it was about 90 F and quite humid, that was not fun. I ran to the beach (about three miles from the hotel) and promptly jumped in the water. Oh well. Todd Vogt Univerisity at Buffalo Department of Biochemistry

Response:

I would have to agree with "Hoffman"…..by nature we are warm blooded creatures. I think the body adjusts to warmth much easier.                              " JOE’s  opinion "

Hi: I’m not sure what you mean by "adjust." In running (which is what we’re talking about),  heat has a negative effect on the ability to perform. Some handle it better mentally than others, but few (if any) can perform better at 95-100 degrees than they can at 55 degrees. It has to do with efficiency in the body. For some good facts on the effects of heat on running, check out: http://www.zunis.org/index.html Like Phil, I look forward to Fall in the south when the temperatures finally start to drop into the 60’s and you can up the pace. "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One possible factor is that you can train harder <consistently in cooler climates. That could more than make up for acclimatization problems. It is VERY difficult to train hard in the south in the summer. A couple of us have kicked this around in the past. There’s no conclusive evidence, but I’m now leaning toward accepting the "harder training makes up for it" argument. I wish it was different, hailing from down south… I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training. I’m a northerner… and I love the cold… I even wanted to move to Alaska just so as to avoid the summer months in NY. However, as a runner I ditched the Alaska idea when I made the decision that running in the cold far outweighs running in the heat on the scale of suckiness.

I don’t mind hot weather. That’s why I live down here. <g I just recognize now that it would be more beneficial overall to train in a cooler climate because my overall training pace would be higher. Thus I might be faster. I wish I could say that training in the heat physically helps me run faster in it, but I don’t think that’s the case. It helps to accept it mentally, but I don’t think that overcomes the handicap of my overall slower training pace for a good part of the year. This is a change in thinking on my part. Anecdotal evidence seems to bear this out. Northern runners seem quite capable of coming down here and cleaning our clocks even when the heat gets extreme. I suspect it’s because they can train harder overall. But I agree that the "green grass" syndrome is there for most folks. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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I hate heat more. You can always put on more clothes, as another poster pointed out, but once you’re nekkid, that’s it. Where do you go? But, that’s why people settle down in different geographic areas. I truly do not believe that I could be happy in a warm climate, just because I’d miss winter. Obviously there are plenty of folks who feel the opposite. Whatever. So, what do your tallies prove so far, Mr. Hoffman? well, at least nobody’s posted a new message to this NG about the bloody imp**chment postponement or Operation "Oh, Crap. Did We Really Name This One After a Nazi?", yet, Dirk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One possible factor is that you can train harder <consistently in cooler climates. That could more than make up for acclimatization problems. It is VERY difficult to train hard in the south in the summer. A couple of us have kicked this around in the past. There’s no conclusive evidence, but I’m now leaning toward accepting the "harder training makes up for it" argument. I wish it was different, hailing from down south… I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training. I’m a northerner… and I love the cold… I even wanted to move to Alaska just so as to avoid the summer months in NY. However, as a runner I ditched the Alaska idea when I made the decision that running in the cold far outweighs running in the heat on the scale of suckiness. Heat and cold are obviously two very different sensations, and each one has its drawbacks, but of the two… I think cold is worse for training.  I look at it this way. Which one keeps more people indoors? The heat, or the cold?  I think the cold keeps far more people in. Whenever I go to Florida, no matter how hot it is; 80, 90, 95++, I see lots of people around in the sweltering heat, no matter how hot it is.. When it is 20 degrees in the north; almost everyone chooses to be indoors. Heat can be tolerated; at the very least you can simply train at a lower intensity so you dont get so hot… or run at night. But when its cold… hell… you dont even want to bother because being cold is such an unpleasant feeling (which is all the worse when running because it puts a sting in your lungs)….. But… to each his own.

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Preferably, I’d take neither! <g  My favourite time for running is around 0530 on a summer morning, all the better if it’s out in the country/woods! And even more so if it’s raining!  But too much heat ain’t good, and cold weather is even worse for me – makes my knees hurt.  Arthritis maybe?  No chance of finding me running up here in the -30C weather we tend to have in the winter!!  And another question on the side: Does anyone else find that running in the rain gives them a mental edge or am I just wierd? Take care, Cindi Cindi Prudhomme Carleton University Ottawa, ON

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I have run in everything from the 40C heat of India during the hot season to the -25C cold of a Canadian winter. I am not sure which end of the spectrum I really "hate" At either end of the temp. scale I look at it as more of a challenge to get out the door and get in a run. I just enjoy getting out the door for a run regardless of the weather. Steve Fleck  

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in Atlanta. This time of year is the perfect time of year to be piling on the mileage and intensity. The grass is definitely greener on my side. The temps are in the 40-55 range and low humidity. What I am confused by one thing. Why am I virtually the only runner out there right now? On my normal route during the summer I see maybe 5 to 10 other runners. Now I rarely see anyone. Do people think that if you’re not sweating a gallon of fluid then you’re not really exercising? I’m out there and noticing the same thing. Ran 16 mi on Peachtree Rd. Sunday in 50 degree drizzle wearing a tank top and short-shorts! Maybe you were the one guy I crossed paths and exchanged a brief greeting with? That’s not cold.

I agree. That’s why I said "This time of year is the perfect time of year."    -Phil

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by nature we are warm blooded creatures.

Polar bears are warm blooded<g Jim

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in Atlanta. This time of year is the perfect time of year to be piling on the mileage and intensity. The grass is definitely greener on my side. The temps are in the 40-55 range and low humidity. What I am confused by one thing. Why am I virtually the only runner out there right now? On my normal route during the summer I see maybe 5 to 10 other runners. Now I rarely see anyone. Do people think that if you’re not sweating a gallon of fluid then you’re not really exercising? I’m out there and noticing the same thing. Ran 16 mi on Peachtree Rd. Sunday in 50 degree drizzle wearing a tank top and short-shorts! Maybe you were the one guy I crossed paths and exchanged a brief greeting with?

That’s not cold.  In Wisconsin, that’s warm.  About a week ago, I started out on a 2 hour run with the temps in the low 50s.  I just wore a t-shirt and shorts.  Within 15 minutes a cold rain started.  15 minutes later it was rain mixed with hail and the temp had dropped into the low 40s.  About an hour into my run I was being pelted with hail, and was freezing.  Then it started to snow–big wet flakes that got me totally soaked (fortunately I wasn’t wearing cotton).  By the time I made it back home the snow was falling faster and starting to pile up.  I got inside and fell down on the floor.  An unpleasant side effect of being soaked with freezing water was significant and rather painful "shrinkage" down below.   Those temps are actually pretty high; this has been an unusually warm fall in the Midwest. A couple of years ago I remember being out for a run with only one layer on my hands.  It was about 10 degrees F ambient temp.  I came out onto a lakefront stretch that had no shelter; the wind was whipping off the lake so hard that within a couple of minutes my fingers were throbbing with pain.  I had to run inside a building–they hurt even worse while they were warming up.  Now I wear a liner and wind-proof mittens whenever its below 20 degrees or so. Personally, I would love winter running if it meant 50 degrees. tom

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Just to let you know there’s at least one other nut still out there!

I think the ones that are nuts are the ones that only run when it’s 90 degrees and 80% humidity.    -Phil

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I think it also has lots to do with definitions of "hot" and "cold."  Here in Austin, "hot" can be (and often is) 100 degrees and 98% humidity.  "Cold" is usually not less than 40 degrees or so, and moderate humidity.  Thus, I much prefer the "cold" weather. My sister in Minneapolis, however, has different definitions.  To her, typical summer conditions might be eighties, albeit muggy.  "Cold," however, means -20 degrees and practically zero humidity – real lung-burner weather.  Thus, she rarely runs between Thanksgiving and Easter. It’s all relative! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training. I live in Atlanta. This time of year is the perfect time of year to be piling on the mileage and intensity. The grass is definitely greener on my side. The temps are in the 40-55 range and low humidity. What I am confused by one thing. Why am I virtually the only runner out there right now? On my normal route during the summer I see maybe 5 to 10 other runners. Now I rarely see anyone. Do people think that if you’re not sweating a gallon of fluid then you’re not really exercising?    -Phil

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I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training.

I live in Atlanta. This time of year is the perfect time of year to be piling on the mileage and intensity. The grass is definitely greener on my side. The temps are in the 40-55 range and low humidity. What I am confused by one thing. Why am I virtually the only runner out there right now? On my normal route during the summer I see maybe 5 to 10 other runners. Now I rarely see anyone. Do people think that if you’re not sweating a gallon of fluid then you’re not really exercising?    -Phil

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In rec.running I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training.

Well, you pegged me there, as a southerner. Heat can be tolerated; at the very least you can simply train at a lower intensity so you dont get so hot… or run at night.

I do run at night, winter and summer.  Perhaps since it doesn’t get as cold as it does up north, I prefer the cold.  The fact is that I perform best when the temps are in the 50s to 60s.  The only time I ever get that here is during the winter.  In the Houston area, it only gets in the low ’80s at night, but the humidity soars to near 100%.  Your sweat does nothing but soak you. But when its cold… hell… you dont even want to bother because being cold is such an unpleasant feeling (which is all the worse when running because it puts a sting in your lungs)….. But… to each his own.

I can always put on more clothes when it is cold.  In the summer, what do you do when a tank top and shorts aren’t enough?  I run in the AC at my club or on a treadmill. Bruce in Katy Texas

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People are affected by heat and humidity differently.  Just like the effect of hills.  Interesting though that the South contingent did the worst by far in both races. Jim Rech

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I live in Atlanta. This time of year is the perfect time of year to be piling on the mileage and intensity. The grass is definitely greener on my side. The temps are in the 40-55 range and low humidity. What I am confused by one thing. Why am I virtually the only runner out there right now? On my normal route during the summer I see maybe 5 to 10 other runners. Now I rarely see anyone. Do people think that if you’re not sweating a gallon of fluid then you’re not really exercising?

I’m out there and noticing the same thing. Ran 16 mi on Peachtree Rd. Sunday in 50 degree drizzle wearing a tank top and short-shorts! Maybe you were the one guy I crossed paths and exchanged a brief greeting with? I suppose for the folks who go for light recreational runs, the unpleasantness outweighs the benefits. I have to admit numb hands and sore lungs from the cold air aren’t particularly enjoyable. (I have gloves but I don’t like to wear many clothes when running.) Also, people around here just aren’t prepared for cold weather. (Ref. how the whole town shuts down whenever we get snow flurries!) Just to let you know there’s at least one other nut still out there! chuck | chuck lail  | i go through all this before you wake up                | |   godot     | so i can feel happier to be safe again with you – bjork |

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I would have to agree with "Hoffman"…..by nature we are warm blooded creatures. I think the body adjusts to warmth much easier.                               " JOE’s  opinion "

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Well, I live in Anchorage, Alaska and I don’t know what Heat is. LOL. A hot summer day around here is about 75′ F. Sometimes that can drain me. If I ever visit the South in summer I doubt I would be able to run two miles. Now, the Cold!  The beautiful Cold! I love running in the Cold! Running outside in the winter is exhilarating. The scenery, at least around here, is magnificent. I get a sense of peace and serenity on winter runs that I don’t get any other time of the year. I especially love Sunday morning runs on the Coastal Trail when it is cold. I usually have the trail to myself. It is quite a high. And running in the winter develops toughness. And a oneness with nature. I love seeing moose and ravens on my runs. Tough creatures that stick it out in the winter. Unlike the wimpy bears that sleep through it. And I’m glad they do. I get to run on trails that I wouldn’t go anywhere near in the summer. Ahhh, indeed, give me -20′ F over 90′ F anyday!

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One possible factor is that you can train harder <consistently in cooler climates. That could more than make up for acclimatization problems. It is VERY difficult to train hard in the south in the summer. A couple of us have kicked this around in the past. There’s no conclusive evidence, but I’m now leaning toward accepting the "harder training makes up for it" argument. I wish it was different, hailing from down south…

I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training. I’m a northerner… and I love the cold… I even wanted to move to Alaska just so as to avoid the summer months in NY. However, as a runner I ditched the Alaska idea when I made the decision that running in the cold far outweighs running in the heat on the scale of suckiness. Heat and cold are obviously two very different sensations, and each one has its drawbacks, but of the two… I think cold is worse for training.  I look at it this way. Which one keeps more people indoors? The heat, or the cold?  I think the cold keeps far more people in. Whenever I go to Florida, no matter how hot it is; 80, 90, 95++, I see lots of people around in the sweltering heat, no matter how hot it is.. When it is 20 degrees in the north; almost everyone chooses to be indoors. Heat can be tolerated; at the very least you can simply train at a lower intensity so you dont get so hot… or run at night. But when its cold… hell… you dont even want to bother because being cold is such an unpleasant feeling (which is all the worse when running because it puts a sting in your lungs)….. But… to each his own.

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These runners have been training and racing in cool to outright cold weather for the past month or so.  Getting acclimated to warm, humid weather in a short amount of time is extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It doesn’t seem fair to some of the cold weather athletes, but hey, I guess that’s life.

I think most people have alot less problem with this situation than would be the reciprocal case. Its alot easier to adjust to 60/70′ish type weather than it is to acclimitize to running up north in shorts and tank top in 20-40 degree’ish weather with wind chill factors that could get even lower than that.

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Just a thought on this outstanding showcase of high school running talent. I’m sure that the kids have a blast in Florida in December and it’s an all around great experience for them.  But, it seems a little unfair to the athletes from the Northeast, MidAtlantic, Upper Midwest, etc. to deal with the Florida weather, especially the humidity.

I ran a race in VanCortland Park the same day as the Northeast XC championships Thanksgiving weekend and let me tell you it wasn’t typical NE weather. I was running in shorts and singlet and sweating my brains out a few days after Thanksgiving. Believe me the NE kids are ready for the weather. BTW the highschool girls champion beat my time by nearly 30 seconds! Andrew Heiz

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        I disagree.  Going to heat and humidity increases the physiological stress on the body.  Going to cold increases the psychological stress.  It is easier to warm up and to add a layer of polypro and a hat than to get cool.         If I am not mistaken, both winners were from up north—and I think it has been warmer in the Midwest and Northeast than usual which could not hurt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These runners have been training and racing in cool to outright cold weather for the past month or so.  Getting acclimated to warm, humid weather in a short amount of time is extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It doesn’t seem fair to some of the cold weather athletes, but hey, I guess that’s life. I think most people have alot less problem with this situation than would be the reciprocal case. Its alot easier to adjust to 60/70′ish type weather than it is to acclimitize to running up north in shorts and tank top in 20-40 degree’ish weather with wind chill factors that could get even lower than that.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a thought on this outstanding showcase of high school running talent. I’m sure that the kids have a blast in Florida in December and it’s an all around great experience for them.  But, it seems a little unfair to the athletes from the Northeast, MidAtlantic, Upper Midwest, etc. to deal with the Florida weather, especially the humidity. These runners have been training and racing in cool to outright cold weather for the past month or so.  Getting acclimated to warm, humid weather in a short amount of time is extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It doesn’t seem fair to some of the cold weather athletes, but hey, I guess that’s life. The results probably both support and contradict what I’m saying.  All I know is that when we visit my in laws in Florida once a year, I have extreme difficulty in getting in good workouts in the heat and humidity . . . and I’m a well conditioned triathlete. Dave

Hi, Results from the US Nationals in triathlon, held in Clermont, Fl this year <in very hot conditions don’t quite support your hypothesis. The yanks took more than their fair share of awards. One possible factor is that you can train harder <consistently in cooler climates. That could more than make up for acclimatization problems. It is VERY difficult to train hard in the south in the summer. A couple of us have kicked this around in the past. There’s no conclusive evidence, but I’m now leaning toward accepting the "harder training makes up for it" argument. I wish it was different, hailing from down south… The level of the runners involved may also be a large factor. Elite runners should run well anywhere. Age groupers and Boppers may be more effected by the heat. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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A girl from Vermont has won the last two years. — Ray "my VT high school didn’t have X-country" Charbonneau R107 – End User Computing The MITRE Corporation – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         I disagree.  Going to heat and humidity increases the physiological stress on the body.  Going to cold increases the psychological stress.  It is easier to warm up and to add a layer of polypro and a hat than to get cool.         If I am not mistaken, both winners were from up north—and I think it has been warmer in the Midwest and Northeast than usual which could not hurt. These runners have been training and racing in cool to outright cold weather for the past month or so.  Getting acclimated to warm, humid weather in a short amount of time is extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It doesn’t seem fair to some of the cold weather athletes, but hey, I guess that’s life. I think most people have alot less problem with this situation than would be the reciprocal case. Its alot easier to adjust to 60/70′ish type weather than it is to acclimitize to running up north in shorts and tank top in 20-40 degree’ish weather with wind chill factors that could get even lower than that.

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Just a thought on this outstanding showcase of high school running talent. I’m sure that the kids have a blast in Florida in December and it’s an all around great experience for them.  But, it seems a little unfair to the athletes from the Northeast, MidAtlantic, Upper Midwest, etc. to deal with the Florida weather, especially the humidity. These runners have been training and racing in cool to outright cold weather for the past month or so.  Getting acclimated to warm, humid weather in a short amount of time is extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It doesn’t seem fair to some of the cold weather athletes, but hey, I guess that’s life. The results probably both support and contradict what I’m saying.  All I know is that when we visit my in laws in Florida once a year, I have extreme difficulty in getting in good workouts in the heat and humidity . . . and I’m a well conditioned triathlete. Dave — "Why do you participate?" "Because I am Mad" –Response from an English competitor to the question asked on the entry form for the Marathon des Sables, the 142 mile run across the Moroccan Sahara.

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Question:

Any RST’ers doing the Spud Triathlon in Southern Md. on Sunday?  There is race day sign up I believe for those of you who procrastinate! Greg Nelson

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I’ll be there. I’ve never done the race so I don’t know where to meet.  I’ll wear my RST singlet so say hello if you see me. Stacy Hills Reston, VA

|Any RST’ers doing the Spud Triathlon in Southern Md. on Sunday?  There is race |day sign up I believe for those of you who procrastinate! | |Greg Nelson

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: Any RST’ers doing the Spud Triathlon in Southern Md. on Sunday?  There is race : day sign up I believe for those of you who procrastinate! I’ll be there, but doing a relay since I’m fighting a charming virus.  I should be pretty easy to spot in the matching TEAM RST-IMC jersey and shorts.  ;-) — Jason Mayfield, Arlington VA Persist, Persevere, Deny, Pursue, Pain, Survive, Ignore, Endure, Strive, Laugh, Cry, Live, Prevail, Scream, Sweat, Bleed, Sustain, Learn, Ascend, Give, Get, GO!  72 Days Until Ironman Canada ‘98

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I’ll be there volunteering. You’ll recognize me as the short guy dragging his left foot, sort of Igor style, since it’s broken. I _think_ one of my duties will be to tell you which chute do slow your bike down into – don’t hit me! However, I’m hoping for female body marking duty! Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Any RST’ers doing the Spud Triathlon in Southern Md. on Sunday?  There is race day sign up I believe for those of you who procrastinate! Greg Nelson

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Question:

I will be in San Antonio, Texas for a week and am hoping to get in a few miles. Are there any good places to run? I will be staying in the downtown area and won’t have a car. Thanks Steve G

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Steve– Check out the Runner Triathlete News web site.  We have a list of running trails throughout the Southwest.  You can access the site at: http://www.runningnetwork.com/runtrinews You’ll need to click on the "Resources" section, scroll down to the bottom and click on the "View Part Articles" icon. From there, scroll down until you come to the "Texas Running Trails" option. Another good source of info for San Antonio is Roger Soler’s Sports. Call them at (210) 366-3701. Lance Phegley Editor Runner Triathlete News www.runningnetwork.com/runtrinews – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be in San Antonio, Texas for a week and am hoping to get in a few miles. Are there any good places to run? I will be staying in the downtown area and won’t have a car. Thanks Steve G

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Question:

RST,    Here’s the e-mail addresses for Triathlete magazine & subscription. Take one step beyond flaming them here in RST and bitch to’em directly about how the magazine comes later than on the newstands. I am. Chaz

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RST,    Here’s the e-mail addresses for Triathlete magazine & subscription. Take one step beyond flaming them here in RST and bitch to’em directly about how the magazine comes later than on the newstands. I am. Chaz

I’ve been trying to hold back on adding my 2 cents but I couldn’t resist any longer. If you think YOU get the magazine late, I wouldn’t even want to begin to tell you how long it takes to get paid. AND I have been writing since 1994 and I’m still NOT on the comp subscription list. I go to the newstand on campus and stand there to read my own articles to make sure it came out okay. I refuse to buy a magazine I contribute to. However, in defence for the mag, I know they moved operations to LaJolla and I believe that is the reason the Oct issue was delayed. I think things are moving forward. Perhaps they can get that Public Relations person to respond to the concerns of the triathlon public instead of releasing info telling us how subscriptions are up.                                              o Lisa Lynam                                  < /           / TRI IT Communications               –0    /          /     48 Longwood Rd. S                (*)/ (*)             /  TRI   Web: http://www.retailbiz.com/lisa.html "Our greatest glory consists NOT in never falling, but in RISING each time we fall."         Olympic Rower Silken Lauman’s favorite quote

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Question:

I was contemplating using a Camel back for hydration at Wildflower instead of bottles. How much of an effect will this have on aerodynamics, taking into account that I will not have bottles on my bike? I feel that using one of these aids dramatically in hydration. Any thoughts, or am I splitting hairs?

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I was contemplating using a Camel back for hydration at Wildflower instead of bottles. How much of an effect will this have on aerodynamics, taking into account that I will not have bottles on my bike? I feel that using one of these aids dramatically in hydration. Any thoughts, or am I splitting hairs?

I’d liken it to splitting one of Mike Pigg’s hairs!! I recently bought a Camelbak type system for mtbing and have also been using it on road rides.  Its not much more convenient than bottles, but it certainly holds more.  I would think that for a long course tri where you may be concerned with the type of drink or its concentration that a drinking system would be perfect.   However, for a hilly course (isn’t Wildflower?) you may not want the extra weight sloshing around on your back while you’re climbing out of the saddle. — Stacy J. Hills

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Hey buddy, I just did a critique on a study conducted by some researchers on a time trial effort while wearing a Camelbak, and the conclusion was that wearing one significantly reduced HR, Perceived Exertion, rectal temperature (argh!!! I’d hate to be those poor guys)…it short, it meant that wearing one (the IceBak version which is not insulated on the side that lays against the skin) can signifcantly reduce your core temperature and HR while at the same exertion level.  It’s not a huge study, but it didn’t have any flaws in it that would significantly affect the results. It’s in Cycling Science’s Fall 1995 issue if you’re interested. See ya at Wildflower. Speed is Life, Dave Chen Captain Arizona State University Triathlon Team www.asu.edu/studentprgms/org/sd_triath – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was contemplating using a Camel back for hydration at Wildflower instead of bottles. How much of an effect will this have on aerodynamics, taking into account that I will not have bottles on my bike? I feel that using one of these aids dramatically in hydration. Any thoughts, or am I splitting hairs?

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I’ve preridden the Wildflower course twice, both times with my Camelbak MULE. It’s the only way to go on a long, hot, hilly course like Wildflower.

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Question:

(calculations deleted)         Or is it that we use less fat/much more carbs than what the "aerobic" thinking would have me believe?

        You hit the answer right there, John. During strenuous exercise, CHO is the preferred fuel, and it is depletion of bodily CHO stores (among other things) that results in fatigue. The purpose of training is to slow the rate of CHO use (by increasing fat use), so as to make these limited stores last longer. However, after training, you can also go faster (hopefully!), so that you end up still using mostly CHO during a race. Also, to maximize performance, it is important to ingest supplemental CHO during exercise bouts lasting 2 hours, which tends to further increase your reliance on CHO. So, CHO remains far and away the predominant fuel…the idea that Mark Allen (or anyone) *raced* the Ironman while obtaining more than 80% of their energy from fat is incorrect (unless, of course, they were CHO-depleted going in). Andrew R. Coggan, Ph.D. exercise physiologist

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(calculations deleted)         Or is it that we use less fat/much more carbs than what the "aerobic" thinking would have me believe?    You hit the answer right there, John.         -snip- So, CHO remains far and away the predominant fuel…the idea that Mark Allen (or anyone) *raced* the Ironman while obtaining more than 80% of their energy from fat is incorrect (unless, of course, they were CHO-depleted going in). Andrew R. Coggan, Ph.D. exercise physiologist

        So, CHO is glycogen, right? (I don’t have anything behind my name)         And, based on the above, what % of carbohydrates/fats do you think is a more realistic figure?  I’m asking this as I am starting to train for a 1/2 IM, and want to get a starting point for carbohydrate replenishment (calories/hr).         Thanks. — John De Vries

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(calculations deleted)         Or is it that we use less fat/much more carbs than what the "aerobic" thinking would have me believe?

[Stuff Deleted] CHO remains far and away the predominant fuel…the idea that Mark Allen (or anyone) *raced* the Ironman while obtaining more than 80% of their energy

from fat is incorrect (unless, of course, they were CHO-depleted going in). Andrew R. Coggan, Ph.D. exercise physiologist

However, one book I have, by David Costill on the basics of sports physiology has a graph of calories burned by a runner, at a sub maximal effort, that shows that after several hours of running on a treadmill that fat supplied the bulk of his energy. If I remember correctly, somewhere else in this book it was stated that one of the reasons/benefits of training was that it conditioned or taught your body to more easily use fat as a fuel source, thus sparing the CHO’s which are needed to enable the body to burn the fat — the phase, "fat burns in a carbohydrate fire," was used a few times.

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However, one book I have, by David Costill on the basics of sports physiology has a graph of calories burned by a runner, at a sub maximal effort, that shows that after several hours of running on a treadmill that fat supplied the bulk of his energy. If I remember correctly, somewhere else in this book it was stated that one of the reasons/benefits of training was that it conditioned or taught your body to more easily use fat as a fuel source, thus sparing the CHO’s which are needed to enable the body to burn the fat — the phase, "fat burns in a carbohydrate fire," was used a few times.

James,         Don’t be misled by Dave’s (I did my undergraduate and master’s work with him, so I feel entitled to call him by his first name only!) oversimplification for teaching purposes. Yes, one of the most important adaptations to training is to reduce the rate of CHO use and increase the rate of fat use at any absolute intensity, and even at the same relative intensity (i.e., at the same percentage of VO2max). And it is true that during prolonged, moderate exercise, fat is an important fuel. But, it is rare to seen anyone, even a well-conditioned athlete, who relies *mostly* on fat as a fuel, especially at race-pace. Thus, CHO remains the dominant fuel source under most exercise conditions, as well as the most important, in the sense that depletion of bodily CHO stores is an important factor in the development of fatigue.         If you want the most recent "scoop" on this and similar topics, might I suggest the book "Exercise Metabolism", edited by Dr. Mark Hargreaves (published by Human Kinetics, ISBN # 0-87332-453-1)? It is written for the advanced graduate student/professional, so it is quite a bit more technical than, say, Costill’s or Tim Noakes’ books. Nevertheless, it will give you the "true story", at least as viewed through the eyes of the authors who contributed the 10 chapters comprising this book (including one by yours truly on the "Metabolic adaptations to endurance training").

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        Ok, I have a carbohydrates/calories question.  I was reading "Body Talk" from the December 1995 issue of Triathlete magazine.  Mark Allen is quoted as using "95% fat, if not higher, in the Ironman." (p44, 4th column).   The article also states his total calorie requirement for the Ironman was 6,932 calories.  So, if 95% of his calorie expendature is from fat, then of the 6,932 calories was from fat.  Simple math then states his carbohydrate use was 346.6 calories.  This is way below the 2000 calories (from the article) stored in the body, yet he consumed 4,620 calories dueing the event (almost the total calorie expendature for the race).         Now, on to my confusion. If a mere mortal such as I use, say 60% fat during aerobic excersise, then 40% of my fuel comes from carbohydrates.  To use running as an example, I have read it takes about 750 calories an hour.  If done aerobic, and using the above 60/40%, I would be able to go 6.6 hours before my 2000 calorie reserve of glycogen(that is, processed carbohydrates) is used up.         Where is my math wrong?  If I compare the above paragraph, to a common assumption:  2000 calories will last about 2 hours in an endurance activity (such as triathlon), then the numbers don’t add up.           What percentage of your calories do you figure come from fat?  Which from carbs?   And how long do you figure you can go before running out of carbohydrate stores?         Is it that all quotes of "total calorie use" ie: total used in an Ironman or calories per hour in a particular activity (running), refer only to carboydrate use?         Or is it that we use less fat/much more carbs than what the "aerobic" thinking would have me believe?         Or am I just way off, and some one out there can clarify it for me. — John De Vries

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Question:

Andy: I haven’t received official Reston results yet, but I did compete in the race.  The bike course was shorter and faster this year after the Hunter Station hill was cut out.  The course this year consisted of three loops (Twin Branches-Glade-Soapstone-Lawyers-Reston Parkway-Colts Neck-South Lakes-Twin Branches).  As you can imagine the finishing times were much faster.  My source is the Reston Local Newspaper Sports section (9/13 edition) which is not 100% reliable.  Also there was some difficulty in tabulating the results the day of the race — the awards ceremony started about one hour after the last participant crossed the finish line. Eric Sorensen won the race in 1:51:42 vs. his last year’s time of 2:00:38 followed by Tim Morris 1:57:26 and David Cascio 1:58:21.  As you can see, Eric smoked the field.  Kim McLaughlin was the first woman in 2:05:40 followed by Nancy Slayden 2:06:39 and Beth O’Connor 2:08:45.  The swim and run courses were the same as in previous years. The Bike Course:  Coming down the 3 mile South Lakes Drive stretch you could easily go over 30 mph most of the time.  The comparison for me was in my average speed this year (23.5mph )vs. last (22mph) on the bike.  I wouldn’t be surprised to see faster run times too since legs weren’t pushed as much on the bike.  My run was actually a little slower than last year. Race Management:  I heard no complaints about the management of the race which is usually a sign that it was run very well.  Kudos to Race Directors Bunny Bonnes, Jim DeRosiers, Mick Toman, Paula Lembke, et al. There was enough Papa Johns pizza for everyone to have a box to themselves.  Other goody hand outs:  water bottle, singlet, long sleeved denim shirt.  While waiting for the awards ceremony some of the local gals (aged 3-5) entertained the crowd by throwing keychains supplied by a local radio station to just about anyone who wanted them. Swim:  The swim was seeded according to self predicted swim time with about 75 per wave.  I think this worked out very well — with less people getting plowed over (like last year when all women were in the first wave including last finisher overall, Marge Stahl (64) who probably didn’t appreciate getting swamped by many swimmers.  There was some congestion near the exit of T1 onto Twin Branches.  As the fastest  bikers were coming down the hill, at the bottom of the hill,  later starters were entering the race.and almost immediately there is the 90 degree right turn onto Glade.  A special lane was coned off for protecting those just beginning the bike.  Apparently there were no accidents other than two guys knocking each other over as they both came out of T1 together. I heard no reports of runners going off course through the woods, so the marshalls there must have done their jobs well.  The shaded run and great weather also decreased the need for multiple aid stations on the run and bike although these were both there in sufficient numbers. Overall, I

Question:

This is the way I understand it:  Jay and Bill are these magazine guys that got canned and are not too happy about it.  They are now posting under various names from AOL to disrupt newsgroup traffic and tick off specific people (JJ and Katherine) who used to be associated with the magazine.  I’ve seen JJs byline and assume Katherine is a writer as well.  Now people are checking AOL to see which articles posted to RST are really posted by Jay and Bill under other names.  My question is this: Are you serious? I’m used to pulling up my other newsgroups and never knowing who is really who they say you are.  Few people in alt.tv.seaquest want anyone to know they watch a show that stars Roy Scheider and a talking dolphin.  Aliases, therefore, are generally accepted.  Very rarely, however, does anyone pretend to be a dizzy, 13-year-boy with an addiction to Glycobars and an excessive snot problem.  What I would like to know is, would somebody really sink to this level, and if so, what happened to them to make them do so? There’s got to be more to it than I’ve seen so far, because if that’s all there is to it, somebody is missing a few teeth on the old mental chainring. I have been very interested in seeing another dimension of the sport through RST (access to factory reps, reports of foreign and domestic races, discussion of the ITU and of Tri-Fed board meetings, inner workings of triathlon publications), but I am not familiar with all of the personalities involved.         I would appreciate it if someone who has some knowledge of the people and personalities involved in this diatribe (never exercise your mind without first stretching your vocabulary) would run them down for me so that I could understand the basis of the dispute here.  Are these guys pissed off, or are they just Beavis and Butthead types who do this sort of thing for fun?  If they are pissed off, do they have a right to be?  These questions have probably been asked before, and I know a lot of people would like to just like to let the issue die down by ignoring these posts, so if this information would not be of general interest to the group please reply via E-mail.  Any info or comments by involved or un-involved parties are welcome. Oh, and about why I watch SeaQuest.  Well, I have this dream…After a year of training with the talking dolphin, you hear me in the post-race interview: "Brad swim…swim fast…bump Dave Scott with nose..win Ironman." Need I say more? Brad W. — Anyone can hit the Snooze button.         "There is a thin line between                                            swimming and drowning, son, and I Brad W.                                    think you may be standing on it." Chesapeake, VA                                        -My Dad

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 are they just Beavis and Butthead types

Hey!  Don’t pick on those nice ….huh,huh,huh, cool…guys.  At worst, they’re still benign.  Jay/Bill is the most destructive double virus to hit the internet.  I’ve seen nuts on other subjects, but they sign their names, they are above board.  Here on r.s.t. we have genuine heated disagreements, e.g. between the champion of age-groupers and the official representative of I.T.U.  They have names, they stand behind their opinions, they also shake hands afterwards, as is the custom among gentlemen and gentlewomen.  What you have seen here under bogus names has been no disagreement about any policies affecting triathletes.  It has been a series of exhibitions of personal problems so raw that it is an embarrassment to read.  I find it fearsome to irritate an already acutely fragile state of mind, so I have laid off. However, the next time I get personal e-mail from one of them, I will cut and paste it on r.s.t. I think some of the enthusiasm for the wonderful wildlife thread has been the result of the air hunger produced by these hostile claustrophobic bogus posters. Haven’t those little wildlife episodes been wonderful? Kazez

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 are they just Beavis and Butthead types Hey! snip<< Here on r.s.t. we have genuine heated disagreements, e.g. between the champion of age-groupers and the official representative of I.T.U.<<

Hey, I want to be a champion too. How cum I have to  be an "official representative" and jj gets to be a "champion"? jj, if you flame me for this I’ll give you 220 wacks! ZAG

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Zag writes: Hey, I want to be a champion too. How cum I have to  be an "official representative" and jj gets to be a "champion"?

"Official representative" is still a better title than " representative official" Bruce Platt

Response:

This is the way I understand it:  Jay and Bill are these magazine guys that got canned and are not too happy about it.  They are now posting under various names from AOL to disrupt newsgroup traffic and tick off specific people (JJ and Katherine) who used to be associated with the magazine.  I’ve seen JJs byline and assume Katherine is a writer as well.  Now people are checking AOL to see which articles posted to RST are really posted by Jay and Bill under other names.  My question is this: Are you serious?

I’d suggest just letting this little family feud wither and die. There is even more misinformation being broadcast  in this post. Jay or Bill were not "canned."It was never posted that either was. The alleged aol posts don’t tick me off, the posts are just plain stupid. They are very easy to detect.  There’s not a heck of a lot more that can really be said about the situation.   I think it was Jimi Hendrix who said, "You can’t believe everything you see and hear, now can you? Now if you excuse me, I must be on my way."

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