Question:

Say whut??  Millions watch hockey. Far more watch figure skating.  And hockey is a distant 4th to baseball, football, and basketball in the US market. Newsflash:  the rest of the world watches TV too.

And there they’d rather watch Futbol.   If we’re talking about NBC, I’m not sure why the rest of the world matters.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

… The point of my original post is that this very same thing (not competition fixing, but turmoil in general) is what got triathlon threatened by the IOC. Seems to me like Triathlon is/was getting a raw deal when other sports are given much more lenient treatment.

That’s because skating is a HUGE public favorite and has massive dollars (adverts, etc.) behind it. Tom

Response:

I prefered the Russians program to the Canadian one. Gold medalists are not allowed to fall or stumble. I think it might be a stretch to call it a stumble.  …

Semantics.  IM winners are not allowed to draft. Tom

Response:

I prefered the Russians program to the Canadian one. Gold medalists are not allowed to fall or stumble. I think it might be a stretch to call it a stumble.  Certainly no fall. I rewatched the final set on hdnet today and found myself puzzled.  The same announcers are used for the HD broadcast, but there are far fewer breaks, and absolutely no Bob Costas.  They seemed far less strident in insisting that the Canadians had just won, and later, that they were robbed.

I  also watched yesterday on MSNBC for the first time.  After watching both programs  I could not see where the Canadian’s program was grossly wronged or given such a raw deal.  The violin music the Russians used suited their program better and seemed to be more soothing than the piano based "Love Story" the Canadians played.  However, for the judging to be played out as if we were still in the cold war was disappointing.  Had the Russians won with  seemingly less biased scores from certain cold war loyalists the competition would have been in a much better situation to be considered fair and most everyone could have accepted the scores as simply the incidentals of subjective judging.  Could you imagine if the Ironman did not have a clock and was judged on technique, style and overall impression?  Points would be taken away for sweating too much and allowing your panty speedos to ride up too high.  Of course spitting or anything coming out of your nose or, god forbid, vomiting would be the major deductions. Rick (I’ll take the stop watch any day) Swanger Unfortunately, I had already deleted the nbc recording from – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the night before, but it left me with the impression that they re-announced the stuff they were packaging for broadcast, with an attempt to make more of it than there actually was. — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

It’s all about TV ratings.  You want to guarantee triathlon a place, hire Jeff Gulooly to kneecap an ITU contender with a piece of iron pipe, then leak video of your wedding night to Blockbuster for rent.  It helps if all parties involved are attractive, and the victim says that being in a parade at Disney

It’s definitely about ratings. But not even a clubbing would bridge the difference in popularity between skating and triathlon.  Tri is a sport for participation, not viewing. Hockey even has a fight every game and it only attracts a small viewing population.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

Doesn’t matter.  Several of the judges gave the same technical score to both programs.  The Canadians clearly skated a cleaner program.

The argument here is the Russians program was harder so they have the room for the slight mistakes.  Don’t know enough about the sport to say if this is a good argument. Plus the brunette is much cuter than the blonde . Both statements above are true.  ;-)

No way, the blonde is way cuter.   But whether the Canadians or Russians *should* have won isn’t the point. The point is that there isn’t *agreement* even within the International Skating Union.  Instead we have finger pointing, accusations of competition fixing, and accusations of vote trading – in short, internal turmoil.  Even more damning is that all of this has surfaced before and the ISU has done nothing to fix it. The point of my original post is that this very same thing (not competition fixing, but turmoil in general) is what got triathlon threatened by the IOC. Seems to me like Triathlon is/was getting a raw deal when other sports are given much more lenient treatment.

The turmoil in "triathlon" is much worse, perhaps that is why the IOC is more "lenient" towards the skating.  Though I don’t really agree a disservice was done, for the sake of argument I will.  That said the "turmoil" created by a couple of judges with somewhat poor judgement perhaps persuaded by their national origans does not compare to the crap that has gone on in "triathlon". John

Tim buaidh no bas

Response:

… Hockey even has a fight every game and it only attracts a small viewing population.  

Say whut??  Millions watch hockey. Tom

Response:

… The argument here is the Russians program was harder so they have the room for the slight mistakes.  Don’t know enough about the sport to say if this is a good argument.

Come on – the Ruskies made one major and three minor flaws.  What you are suggesting is that a rider in IMH could win because they had  one leg longer than another and fatter tires?  Even if their time was slower?  The Canucks were FLAWLESS. … The turmoil in "triathlon" is much worse, perhaps that is why the IOC is more "lenient" towards the skating.  Though I don’t really agree a disservice was done, for the sake of argument I will.  That said the "turmoil" created by a couple of judges with somewhat poor judgement perhaps persuaded by their national origans does not compare to the crap that has gone on in "triathlon".

If triathlon could draw as many dollars as skating, Avery Brundidge would still be in charge. Tom

Response:

Hockey even has a fight every game and it only attracts a small viewing population.   Say whut??  Millions watch hockey.

Far more watch figure skating.  And hockey is a distant 4th to baseball, football, and basketball in the US market. — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

Hockey even has a fight every game and it only attracts a small viewing population.   Say whut??  Millions watch hockey. Far more watch figure skating.  And hockey is a distant 4th to baseball, football, and basketball in the US market.

Newsflash:  the rest of the world watches TV too. Tom

Response:

But not even a clubbing would bridge the difference in popularity between skating and triathlon.  Tri is a sport for participation, not viewing.

Just wait, if Les has his way… Hockey even has a fight every game and it only attracts a small viewing population.

It makes more money than figure skating.

Response:

Far more watch figure skating.  

Than hockey?  Tell that to the beer advertisers.

Response:

Far more watch figure skating.   Than hockey?  Tell that to the beer advertisers.

Outside of hdnet, have you seen any hockey on TV yet?  Skating is nearly every night.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

Isn’t it more than a little strange? The International Olympic Committee threatened to drop Triathlon from the games unless the International Triathlon Union "cleans up its act".  IOC member Craig Reedie of Britain was quoted in a 11/28/01 CNN article as follows: "The last thing the IOC wants is a divided international federation, Triathlon better get its act together. The pressure is on them." All the while the same body tolerates ridiculous judging, scandals, infighting, and other shenanigans within the figure skating community with hardly a word. Anyone still think the Olympics aren’t about money? John

Response:

All the while the same body tolerates ridiculous judging, scandals, infighting, and other shenanigans within the figure skating community with hardly a word.

I prefered the Russians program to the Canadian one. Anyone still think the Olympics aren’t about money?

Sure money is key, but it’s still fun to watch the worlds greatest athletes compete. Tim buaidh no bas

Response:

All the while the same body tolerates ridiculous judging, scandals, infighting, and other shenanigans within the figure skating community with hardly a word. I prefered the Russians program to the Canadian one.

It was as cold as the siberian winter.   But the difference between the two programs was very slight.   Were the voting not on obvious political lines, I’d give it not a thought. — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

All the while the same body tolerates ridiculous judging, scandals, infighting, and other shenanigans within the figure skating community with hardly a word. I prefered the Russians program to the Canadian one.

Gold medalists are not allowed to fall or stumble. Tom

Response:

Triathlon is under the axe.  In cycling, it is said: "They can’t race, but they can Tri".  I hope you put the next two years to good use. John Bickmore www.Feed-Zone.com/MyWebSites.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All the while the same body tolerates ridiculous judging, scandals, infighting, and other shenanigans within the figure skating community with hardly a word. I prefered the Russians program to the Canadian one. Gold medalists are not allowed to fall or stumble. Tom

Response:

I prefered the Russians program to the Canadian one. Gold medalists are not allowed to fall or stumble.

I think it might be a stretch to call it a stumble.  Certainly no fall. I rewatched the final set on hdnet today and found myself puzzled.  The same announcers are used for the HD broadcast, but there are far fewer breaks, and absolutely no Bob Costas.  They seemed far less strident in insisting that the Canadians had just won, and later, that they were robbed.  Unfortunately, I had already deleted the nbc recording from the night before, but it left me with the impression that they re-announced the stuff they were packaging for broadcast, with an attempt to make more of it than there actually was.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

Triathlon is under the axe.  In cycling, it is said: "They can’t race, but they can Tri".

It is a little known fact that the cyclist who said that did it in bitterness after being helped back to the side of the pool by a triathlete. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope you put the next two years to good use. John Bickmore www.Feed-Zone.com/MyWebSites.htm All the while the same body tolerates ridiculous judging, scandals, infighting, and other shenanigans within the figure skating community with hardly a word. I prefered the Russians program to the Canadian one. Gold medalists are not allowed to fall or stumble. Tom

Response:

I prefered the Russians program to the Canadian one.

Doesn’t matter.  Several of the judges gave the same technical score to both programs.  The Canadians clearly skated a cleaner program. Plus the brunette is much cuter than the blonde .

Response:

Doesn’t matter.  Several of the judges gave the same technical score to both programs.  The Canadians clearly skated a cleaner program. Plus the brunette is much cuter than the blonde .

Both statements above are true.  ;-) But whether the Canadians or Russians *should* have won isn’t the point. The point is that there isn’t *agreement* even within the International Skating Union.  Instead we have finger pointing, accusations of competition fixing, and accusations of vote trading – in short, internal turmoil.  Even more damning is that all of this has surfaced before and the ISU has done nothing to fix it. The point of my original post is that this very same thing (not competition fixing, but turmoil in general) is what got triathlon threatened by the IOC. Seems to me like Triathlon is/was getting a raw deal when other sports are given much more lenient treatment. John

Response:

and absolutely no Bob Costas.

How refreshing

Response:

Plus the brunette is much cuter than the blonde .

Amen. and don’t forget to score the costume coverage (or lack thereof.) If it’s judged subjectively, it’s not a sport, it’s an art.

Response:

The point of my original post is that this very same thing (not competition fixing, but turmoil in general) is what got triathlon threatened by the IOC. Seems to me like Triathlon is/was getting a raw deal when other sports are given much more lenient treatment.

It’s all about TV ratings.  You want to guarantee triathlon a place, hire Jeff Gulooly to kneecap an ITU contender with a piece of iron pipe, then leak video of your wedding night to Blockbuster for rent.  It helps if all parties involved are attractive, and the victim says that being in a parade at Disney World with Mickey Mouse got her hot, and make female triathletes wear sequins. That’s how skating got on the map. When our city was debating spending $15 million on a SECOND indoor Olympic ice rink, I researched figure skating participation with the US Sporting Goods Association.  It was steadily dropping for over a decade, but there was a heck of a spike right after Tonya Harding did her thing.  Synchronized swimmers the world over WISHED someone would kneecap one of them. Of course, all this assumes Olympic inclusion is a good thing. Both this latest and the past skating scandals surrounding the Olympics are just more evidence that it’s not.

Response:

Question:

Good luck to Whitfield!  Oh…and you too of course, Dave!  *smiles* Sean Chester Vancouver Island, Canada – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – good luck to you and your team. -jobs Woohoo, I was in Toronto all day, picking up our team’s race kits and checking out the course. It’s very exciting! There are all sorts of elites running and cycling around!! Here’s a few that will be participating tomorrow (in the elite race, a separate event, on the exact same course several hours after us):

Response:

good luck to you and your team. -jobs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Woohoo, I was in Toronto all day, picking up our team’s race kits and checking out the course. It’s very exciting! There are all sorts of elites running and cycling around!! Here’s a few that will be participating tomorrow (in the elite race, a separate event, on the exact same course several hours after us):

Response:

Woohoo, I was in Toronto all day, picking up our team’s race kits and checking out the course. It’s very exciting! There are all sorts of elites running and cycling around!! Here’s a few that will be participating tomorrow (in the elite race, a separate event, on the exact same course several hours after us): Simon Whitfield, (CAN) (of course

Sounds excellent.  I look forward to your report.  I have a grandstand ticket to the July 21-22 World Triathlon Championships here in Edmonton.   We’re looking forward to a Canadian sweep – Whitfield for the men and Montgomery for women – but those Aussies will be tough.   The "commoners" run on Saturday, then the elites on Sunday – women first, then men.  Should be fun. Good luck in your race. — Lorne Sundby Edmonton, Canada (Come visit Aug 3-12, for the 2001 World Championships in Athletics.)

Response:

I forgot to mention that the whole thing is on the Molson Indy course… which is next week. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Woohoo, I was in Toronto all day, picking up our team’s race kits and checking out the course. It’s very exciting! There are all sorts of elites running and cycling around!! Here’s a few that will be participating tomorrow (in the elite race, a separate event, on the exact same course several hours after us): Simon Whitfield, (CAN) (of course Laura Reback,(USA) Rina Hill, (NZ) Gilberto Gonzalez, (VEN) Hunter Kemper, (USA) Hamish Carter, (NZ) Andrew Johns, (GB) Chris McCormack (AUS) I found out that the swimmers have to run 800m to the transition!! This will seriously put a damper on out team’s goal of doing this in under one hour. (It’s a sprint tri – 750m swim, 20k bike, 5k run – the elites are doing full Olympic distance). — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

Response:

Woohoo, I was in Toronto all day, picking up our team’s race kits and checking out the course. It’s very exciting! There are all sorts of elites running and cycling around!! Here’s a few that will be participating tomorrow (in the elite race, a separate event, on the exact same course several hours after us): Simon Whitfield, (CAN) (of course Laura Reback,(USA) Rina Hill, (NZ) Gilberto Gonzalez, (VEN) Hunter Kemper, (USA) Hamish Carter, (NZ) Andrew Johns, (GB) Chris McCormack (AUS) I found out that the swimmers have to run 800m to the transition!! This will seriously put a damper on out team’s goal of doing this in under one hour. (It’s a sprint tri – 750m swim, 20k bike, 5k run – the elites are doing full Olympic distance). — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

Response:

Question:

Anyone interested in beta testing a Mac training diary please email me. Thanks

Response:

Anyone interested in beta testing a Mac training diary please email me. Thanks

Very interested! Steve

Response:

Anyone interested in beta testing a Mac training diary please email me. Thanks

I would like to try it.  I have an iMac Gary McMurtrey Inland Inferno Triathlon Club http://members.aol.com/infernotri/home.htm

Response:

Question:

Fellow Triathletes: I am posting this message in regard to the post MET-Rx Triathlon e-mail and letters I have read. It

Question:

There is a popular notion that completing a tri is what it’s all about. I met a fellow in the starting corral at this year’s Boston Marathon and we chatted briefly.  By chance we crossed paths in the finish area, after I had completely trashed myself just to get across the finish line.  I was happy with my time (and simply finishing) but disappointed in how poorly I felt.  While stumbling through the last three miles it never occurred to me not to finish.  I would have walked, crawled–whatever it took.  After I expressed how poorly I felt he responded with, "There’s no such thing as a bad marathon."  For most of us, this could be translated to, "There’s no such thing as a bad triathlon." BUT… <dramatic pause IMHO, every statement that anyone makes on this topic must be prefaced with "IMHO" and be considered thusly.  Consensus does not make one’s opinion more valid, just more popular.  Go to a skinhead meeting and you’ll see all sorts of popular opinions. Almost by definition, endurance athletes march to the beat of a different drummer.  That’s what makes us unique compared to the vast majority of the population.  Most people think we’re whacked.  We do what we want on our own terms.  That’s all anyone can ever really hope for. This woman is exactly that.  She does what she wants, how she wants, and for her own reasons.  Who is anyone to judge her?  Most noteworthy people are noteworthy because they are different from everyone else. One other thing that we can only hope for is to learn something from an experience, particularly a bad experience.  Maybe this woman learned something at that race:  - Don’t enter a race if I’m undertrained.  - If I’m undertrained, don’t care about my performance.  - If I don’t meet my performance goal, DNF is the right thing to do.  - If I don’t meet my performance goal, DNF is the wrong thing to do. Then again, maybe not.  But it’s entirely up to her. Doug PS.  For the record, as a MOP age-grouper a poor performance would never keep me from finishing, but that’s MHO.

Response:

You got that right, Ruth! Heck, a fractrued foot didn’t keep me from running through that chute (ok, ok, bad example & foolish in the extreme –but I didn’t know I’d broke it at the time. I just knew I was going to finish what I’d started, even if I didn’t like my run split). What was the point of her DNF? SHE still has to know/live with what her time would have been. Might as well have run through the chute. Laura (counting the pool tiles while Aquajogging….) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  But the woman we are talking about did finish the race and was at the chute, in good health and in what most of us would consider a good time.  In addition to earning a benign DNF, she deprived any woman who was racing with her a win or better time by removing herself from the contest.  If I were competing with her for 2 1/2 hours and was deprived of my win, I’d be pretty annoyed. Still, I have to admit, my mind is boggled by her ability to turn away from the finishing chute.  Nothing could make me do that. Ruth Kazez

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Apparently, a woman had run the entire race and entered the beginning of the finishing stretch only to pull up and stop.  The spectators, volunteers and athletes nearby all cried out urging her to finish, to run the final 20 meters and cross the line.  This woman, however, was adamant.  "I refuse to have such a lousy time posted on the internet," she answered heatedly.  "I just won’t do it."  And she walked away to get her gear out of the transition area. That paragraph deserves a subject line of its own. It could be an important thread.  Her attitude isn’t simply negative, but may be a complicated response to a variety of pressures put on her not only by herself, but perhaps by friends, family, and us on the internet. Her sentiment isn’t totally foreign to me although I broadcasted my own really cruddy performance.  Are there others here who feel that way? How do you resolve it?

Okay, Ruth, I’ll try to spin off a new thread on the subject. From my own point of view, if I’d been 20 m from the finish and feeling badly frustrated by my own performance, I’d still have felt worse about seeing a DNF next to my name than seeing a slow time. Granted I’m a slow MOPer, and (through long experience) able to rationalize many of my disappointments, still I think that woman needed to get a bit of perspective.   (Rationalization alert: if you are unable to tolerate anything but surpassing your goals, no matter how unrealistic, do not read any further!) ANYONE doing this sport, and putting in the training time needed to do it without too much discomfort on race day, is already in the 99.9th percentile of fitness.  At least in the sedentary U.S., the huge, vast, overwhelming majority of people think that what you’re doing is awesome and almost superhuman (as well as brain-damaged…).  It is a diminishingly small, ten-to-some-negative-exponent fraction of people that could look at any finish time and (honestly) say, "I could beat that in my sleep."  And, having been privileged to know some of those top-of-the-heap people, they DON’T say it.  I doubt they even think it.  Even most pros are competing more for love of the sport than anything else (just look at their pay).   From a more selfish point of view:  I publish our swim club newsletter, and I count on those web-page postings of results to give me "hard news" to report.  I’d be ticked off if one of our members deliberately DNF’d just so I wouldn’t have a time to print!  I expect more creativity from our members: "My swim time sucked because I got tangled in seaweed;" "I guess you didn’t hear about the tornado and hailstorm during the bike ride;" "It was an M.C. Escher run course, where even when you thought you were running downhill, you were still going up." — Rick Teichler StorageTek Software Engineering (Louisville, Colorado) For Email replies, use:   teichler <at sweng <dot stortek <dot com

Response:

I completely agree with Rick and the others on this thread.  I feel sorry for the woman who intentionally DNF’ed so a poor time wouldn’t be recorded.  IMHO, she is missing one of the most important parts of triathlon: Doing it and loving it.  It’s too bad she is so insecure about her abilities that she can’t go out and have a bad day. We can’t PR every time we go out and race, and some days are definately worse than others.  I have great respect for anyone who finishes a triathlon, regardless of time.  Believe me, when I did Wildflower a couple of weeks ago, with a time of 8:00, I wasn’t thrilled with my time (to say the least), but with everything that happened during the race I was proud that I stuck with it and finished.  Never did I think about giving up because my time wasn’t what I’d planned. I hope this woman realizes that even on a bad day, she is still more fit than the vast majority of Americans, and any finish in a triathlon is something to be proud of. Alison Keple Mill Bay, BC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Apparently, a woman had run the entire race and entered the beginning of the finishing stretch only to pull up and stop.  The spectators, volunteers and athletes nearby all cried out urging her to finish, to run the final 20 meters and cross the line.  This woman, however, was adamant.  "I refuse to have such a lousy time posted on the internet," she answered heatedly.  "I just won’t do it."  And she walked away to get her gear out of the transition area. That paragraph deserves a subject line of its own. It could be an important thread.  Her attitude isn’t simply negative, but may be a complicated response to a variety of pressures put on her not only by herself, but perhaps by friends, family, and us on the internet. Her sentiment isn’t totally foreign to me although I broadcasted my own really cruddy performance.  Are there others here who feel that way? How do you resolve it? Okay, Ruth, I’ll try to spin off a new thread on the subject. From my own point of view, if I’d been 20 m from the finish and feeling badly frustrated by my own performance, I’d still have felt worse about seeing a DNF next to my name than seeing a slow time. Granted I’m a slow MOPer, and (through long experience) able to rationalize many of my disappointments, still I think that woman needed to get a bit of perspective.   (Rationalization alert: if you are unable to tolerate anything but surpassing your goals, no matter how unrealistic, do not read any further!) ANYONE doing this sport, and putting in the training time needed to do it without too much discomfort on race day, is already in the 99.9th percentile of fitness.  At least in the sedentary U.S., the huge, vast, overwhelming majority of people think that what you’re doing is awesome and almost superhuman (as well as brain-damaged…).  It is a diminishingly small, ten-to-some-negative-exponent fraction of people that could look at any finish time and (honestly) say, "I could beat that in my sleep."  And, having been privileged to know some of those top-of-the-heap people, they DON’T say it.  I doubt they even think it.  Even most pros are competing more for love of the sport than anything else (just look at their pay).   From a more selfish point of view:  I publish our swim club newsletter, and I count on those web-page postings of results to give me "hard news" to report.  I’d be ticked off if one of our members deliberately DNF’d just so I wouldn’t have a time to print!  I expect more creativity from our members: "My swim time sucked because I got tangled in seaweed;" "I guess you didn’t hear about the tornado and hailstorm during the bike ride;" "It was an M.C. Escher run course, where even when you thought you were running downhill, you were still going up." — Rick Teichler StorageTek Software Engineering (Louisville, Colorado) For Email replies, use:   teichler <at sweng <dot stortek <dot com

Response:

Pity the soul who can’t hold her head high in spite of bad breaks. Character is built by knowing the direction and suffering through. Character is strengthened by regarding struggle as challenge. In the inimitable words of my coach "Suck It Up and Deal With It!".  I think that means "to embrace" <wink Lynne

Response:

Triathlus Interruptus

My Dearest Ruth, I believe you have misused the term "Triathlus Interruptus." If you would check the dictionary section of the "Triathlete Source Book" . . . "Triathlus Interruptus" is defined as a (temporary) loss of sex life due to a partner’s pursuit of IM distance racing. "Triathlus Interruptus" is the byproduct of 15-20 hour training weeks and the exhaustion that ensues. Should you need further substantiation, you may ask my wife;-) Good Training, Good Racing, Good to sleeeeeeep! Joe Joseph C. Foster The Stanley Works "The idea is to create your own future, and not have it shaped by circumstance." – Peter Thomas

Response:

Sometimes, quitting during the race shows good judgement, a concern for one’s own safety and well-being.  I always fail to show that good judgement, no credit to me.  But the woman we are talking about did finish the race and was at the chute, in good health and in what most of us would consider a good time.  In addition to earning a benign DNF, she deprived any woman who was racing with her a win or better time by removing herself from the contest.  If I were competing with her for 2 1/2 hours and was deprived of my win, I’d be pretty annoyed. Still, I have to admit, my mind is boggled by her ability to turn away from the finishing chute.  Nothing could make me do that. Ruth Kazez

I just would like to know if the pressure she had that resulted in a DNF was placed on herself, or from others. Either way she should have finished, bad time or not. I’ve always found (from a famous saying) that you learn a lot more with a bad race than with a good one.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

After all, if the pros can do it, why should anyone question _anyone’s_ motivation for finishing or not finishing a triathlon?  Personally, my IMC marathon was the runner’s version of the Bata an Death March but I would be damned if, having gone that far, I was gonna quit.  Friends (incidentally really good trigeeks) quit.  Am I any better than them?  No… just way to stubborn.  

Sometimes, quitting during the race shows good judgement, a concern for one’s own safety and well-being.  I always fail to show that good judgement, no credit to me.  But the woman we are talking about did finish the race and was at the chute, in good health and in what most of us would consider a good time.  In addition to earning a benign DNF, she deprived any woman who was racing with her a win or better time by removing herself from the contest.  If I were competing with her for 2 1/2 hours and was deprived of my win, I’d be pretty annoyed. Still, I have to admit, my mind is boggled by her ability to turn away from the finishing chute.  Nothing could make me do that. Ruth Kazez

Response:

Yes, but pros have to put groceries on the table, and their decisions have to sometimes overcome passion and be practical. They haven’t the luxury (unless they have independent means) to be purists.

Well, then perhaps being judgmental (not you personally) of those who  decide what is important to them (like nice results) is not okay? After all, if the pros can do it, why should anyone question _anyone’s_ motivation for finishing or not finishing a triathlon?  Personally, my IMC marathon was the runner’s version of the Bata an Death March but I would be damned if, having gone that far, I was gonna quit.  Friends (incidentally really good trigeeks) quit.  Am I any better than them?  No… just way to stubborn.   Tom

Response:

Yes, but pros have to put groceries on the table, and their decisions have to sometimes overcome passion and be practical. They haven’t the luxury (unless they have independent means) to be purists. Pity the soul who can’t hold her head high in spite of bad breaks. Character is built by knowing the direction and suffering through. Character is strengthened by regarding struggle as challenge. Hmmm… and what do we all think of pros who do the same thing? Tom

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

Response:

"Tribobo???" Oh Please, help me! Been in CT for the week (where it is W-A-R-M), give me an update on your lodging? Will reply to B2B when I have had a chance to sleep: 4 nights & 4 days combined travel/13.5 hours combined sleep – and I don’t drink! Yawn – must doze off now;-) Hope you’re well Miss Tricia (bobo???!!??) – Hugs 2U and Skip’ SM2U PS: Nice report – did I miss a WF reoprt in my travels? Joseph C. Foster The Stanley Works "The idea is to create your own future, and not have it shaped by circumstance." – Peter Thomas

Response:

Pity the soul who can’t hold her head high in spite of bad breaks. Character is built by knowing the direction and suffering through. Character is strengthened by regarding struggle as challenge. Hmmm… and what do we all think of pros who do the same thing? Tom

I think that a pro’s motivations for racing are sufficiently different from mine that I don’t question their decisions to DNF.  If I’m racing for a living, and find that I’m already out of the money by the end of the bike, dropping out makes sense.  I’m probably in another race next week where maybe I *can* earn a paycheck, and I’m better off saving the energy for that day.   I can’t recall any pros dropping out of a race 20 meters from the finish, though, unless they were carried off to the med tent immediately thereafter.   I’m not a hard-liner about always finishing.  I’d quit a race without much hesitation if I thought that continuing would cause injury, or hyper-/hypo- thermia.  After all, there’s always another race, if you’re still healthy enough to do it.  I *do* like to see people enjoy the sport, though, and not take it so seriously that the pleasure is gone.  The example cited by Tri-Baby sounds like someone who’s lost their sense of enjoyment. — Rick Teichler StorageTek Software Engineering (Louisville, Colorado) For Email replies, use:   teichler <at sweng <dot stortek <dot com

Response:

Back in my section of the race (in Boboland!), Tri-Baby T-B has coined a new Back Of the Pack group. BWB (back with the bobos).   Dan Herrema (formerly tridan46, maybe tribobo?)

Dan— Sorry, but I cannot allow you to appropriate ‘TriBobo’; I am seriously considering adopting it for my next tri incarnation.  Although "TriBaby" is now so firmly established that it might be tough to drop!   With over 40 races behind me now, including an Ironman, and a trip to Kona in the near future, it almost seems disingenuous to continue to think of myself as a "babe" in the triathlon woods.  In terms of ability, however, I’ll always be just a baby.  But "TriBobo" sure seems more and more appropriate as time goes by! Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

Back in my section of the race (in Boboland!), Tri-Baby

T-B has coined a new Back Of the Pack group. BWB (back with the bobos).   Dan Herrema (formerly tridan46, maybe tribobo?)

Response:

I have to agree with the others who have posted…never quit a race because I was unhappy with my performance, just happy to finish and have a good time. You might have quit this time because of your time, but next time it could be something different, the heat, got kicked during the swim, did not transition fast enough.  Bottom line, you could be setting yourself up for a mental pitfall.  Something you have to determine within yourself…

Response:

Rick is right about the fitness level idea… as athletes it is easy to critisize ourselves for not making time goals in races when indeed if we look around when we are out in the "real world" there aren’t that many people at Safeway or at our work places that can equal any part of the races that most people here do. I don’t want to sound full of it but most people in this newsgroup are pretty dedicated to training and a fitness lifestyle. It’s easy to forget the fact that we are usually excelling by just doing what we love. Good race times or not, on the whole just doing the sport puts you in a pretty impressive group. Lynne Mac

Response:

Yea, it is an interesting thread! I always can understand quitting if an injury is coming on, heat exhaustion, equipment failure. Then, it is prudent. But, another competitor beating you or bad breaks as Lynne puts it are part of the game –deal with it is right! On the other hand (we lawyers can always argue both sides *wink*), perhaps the reason behind quitting was a recognition that her body and her mental ability to push on were exhausted and there was no point in concluding a sub-par performance: thus better to stop, recover and then enter a new race fresh in both body and spirit? A poor performance can have more devistating long-lasting mental consequences than we sometimes like to admit, particularly if the athlete in question aspires to national ranking. If she didn’t exhibit a pattern of DNFs, I’d be inclined to cut her a break. Afterall, look at what some of the pros do –if it’s a bad day, they stop, recognizing it’s

just a  race. This would make sense if she still had miles to go.  But how would a DNF be any better in terms of "long-lasting mental consequences" than a "lousy" finish time when the effort ended up being the same?  She was in the finishing stretch when she pulled out.  She had virtually completed the course, but didn’t feel the effort was worthy of crossing the finish line.   I actually started the race 50% certain that I would have to DNF because of my ankle, and that was ok.  But then I almost DNFed just because I was having a crappy day, and in retrospect that would NOT have been ok, had I actually done it.  I would have been really disappointed with myself if I had simply chucked the whole thing in a fit of pique.   In the end, I guess it’s not right to judge someone else’s motives.  I just know that it did strike me as hollow to go all that way and then say, "That performance was not worthy of completion.  I refuse to have it acknowledged."  Perhaps I would understand better if I were one of the truly competitive athletes.  Back in my section of the race (in Boboland!), though, crossing that line is always important, always an achievement to be proud of. Just another 2 dinars. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

Yea, it is an interesting thread! I always can understand quitting if an injury is coming on, heat exhaustion, equipment failure. Then, it is prudent. But, another competitor beating you or bad breaks as Lynne puts it are part of the game –deal with it is right! On the other hand (we lawyers can always argue both sides *wink*), perhaps the reason behind quitting was a recognition that her body and her mental ability to push on were exhausted and there was no point in concluding a sub-par performance: thus better to stop, recover and then enter a new race fresh in both body and spirit? A poor performance can have more devistating long-lasting mental consequences than we sometimes like to admit, particularly if the athlete in question aspires to national ranking. If she didn’t exhibit a pattern of DNFs, I’d be inclined to cut her a break. Afterall, look at what some of the pros do –if it’s a bad day, they stop, recognizing it’s just a race. Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pity the soul who can’t hold her head high in spite of bad breaks. Character is built by knowing the direction and suffering through. Character is strengthened by regarding struggle as challenge. In the inimitable words of my coach "Suck It Up and Deal With It!".  I think that means "to embrace" <wink Lynne

Response:

Pity the soul who can’t hold her head high in spite of bad breaks. Character is built by knowing the direction and suffering through. Character is strengthened by regarding struggle as challenge.

Hmmm… and what do we all think of pros who do the same thing? Tom

Response:

There are a multitude of reasons for recording a DNF. I am not sure if pulling out 20m from the finish line because you "did not like your time", is one of them. Steve Fleck

Response:

Pity the soul who can’t hold her head high in spite of bad breaks. Character is built by knowing the direction and suffering through. Character is strengthened by regarding struggle as challenge. In the inimitable words of my coach "Suck It Up and Deal With It!".  I think that means "to embrace" <wink Lynne

Consider an example of this in the pros. The last time Sue Latshaw raced two years ago at IMH, there was quite a thread on her 13:45 time and why she bothered to finish in that kind of time in light of what she’s capable of (to wit, 1997’s incredible sub-9 IMG).  There was a few quotes in the tri mags…she’s gotten the crap beat out of her in the swim and her legs were toast by run time, but she still struggled to a 6:29 marathon, 15 minutes LONGER than her bike time.  To paraphrase her comment  from the mags, she was there to finish..time and ego not withstanding. That’s an even braver statement for a pro…we’re used to seeing DNF by their name, not times worthy of us MOP/BOP’ers.       Even as an MOP/BOP’er who trains a lot…long months, long days, the whole kitten caboodle…it’s quite the struggle to expose a time that doesn’t live up to my expectation (to wit, my WF run of 2:35 didn’t show my run capability in the least. But I fessed up on the mental drop).    IMHO, you’re setting yourself up for a lifetime of "didn’t quite do it" or "didn’t do well enough" types of mental harshness if you assign your core expectation to times.  Let’em be secondary or tertiary expectations…just not your core.   The bottom line of this sport still seems to be what it was when it was started…to FINISH and revel in the fact of how fortunate you are to be out there and be able bodied enough to do it and feel the cheers as you come down the finish chute. Those supportive folks (and all the people & volunteers along the way) could give a rip how fast you went….they’re amazed that you do it.  (sound of size 12 Asics hopping off a podium). My $0.02 worth of opinion. Chaz

Response:

Question:

Thanks for the information, can you tell me where I can get a Nytro catalogue (tele/address) and also for Steves Multisport. I live in Scotland so I don’t have access to this information over here. thanks again for your help. John.

Response:

Can anyone help?.  I’m using a road bike for training and racing but need to move the seat forward but can’t find a 26mm diameter forward seat post. Does anyone know of a manufacturer or supplier. Preferably in the U.K.

If I am not mistaken, the Nytro catalog had a good supply of forward seatposts and a good range of sizes.  Also, Steve’s Multisport has a good number of forward posts. Rob — Ironman Canada 1998 Rob Blomquist aka TriDog Seattle, WA http://www.accessone.com/~robb

Response:

HI John,         have you tried the new Profile forward seat post?? I know Total Fitness have them but undoubtly you could get one in Scotland. Anyway both Nytro and Steves have excellent web pages with prices on everything, http://www.nytro.com http://www.netaxs.com/~steves/ Failing that I might be able to help form Germany. I am english, I know how you feel, you see all the exotic stuff which is never available in the UK that easily. Still Germany is pretty good, the shop I go to has Softrides left right and center. Go to England and it’s "Softride sir?? No what you want is this Roberts…blah..blah" Oops I hope you don’t have a Roberts!! Fine frames, not much cop for triathlon though!! Chris — Chris Carpenter at the Max-Planck-Insitut fuer Polymerforschung voice: +49 6131 379217           : Quintana Roo, Just Roo it!!! fax:   +49 6131 379100           : Saucony,  Loyal to the sport www:   http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/~carpent

Response:

Can anyone help?.  I’m using a road bike for training and racing but need to move the seat forward but can’t find a 26mm diameter forward seat post. Does anyone know of a manufacturer or supplier. Preferably in the U.K. thanks John

Response:

Question:

I think I have a list of duathlons and triathlons within an hour or two of Colorado Springs at the office – I’ll try to send estimated dates and other info about them tomorrow. One quick correction about the Pikes Peak Ascent – it goes all the way to the top of the peak, so max altitude is 14,110′ (I guess it could be 14,109 ).  And of course there’s also the Pikes Peak Marathon, in which you run back down after making it to the top!  Yikes. TriMorph (aka Tim Chamillard – it’s good to be back!)

Response:

Just some fun additions to Colo. races that you wouldn’t normally hear about. Typically the Pikes Peak Ascent is the 3rd Saturday in August and the round trip (ascent&descent) is the next day.  Only 1200 entries accepted for the ascent and last year (96) they were full by the end of June.  Get hold the Colo Sprgs C of C.  It is part of the KRDO Triple Crown of Racing.  The PP Ascent, the Garden of the Gods 10K, and a 8 miler in Colorado Springs that the name eludes me now.  If all three are done you get points, etc to determine overall placement in the series. About the 3rd Saturday in July is the Kendall Mt. run out of Silverton, CO.  This race is 13.1 miles round trip.  Starts in Silverton at 10,000′ and goes to the top of Kendall Mt. and back down. The last 1/2 mile on the Ascent part is open course.  Get to the top however you can.  Put on by the Silverton C of C. Then in Sept. is the Imogene Pass run.  18 mile run from Ouray to Telluride over 13,100′ Imogene Pass.  Lots of mines, etc.  The first 11 miles is open course to the top of the pass but the final 7 miles of ascent is not open course. Then there used to be a run out of Creede, CO in Sept or Oct called the Creede Wilderness run.  There was a 1.5 m fun run and a 12 or 22 mile course.  At the 6 mile mark you made up your mind which one to do and committed.  For more info you have to look up the Creede C of C telephone number. And in Sept there used to be one out of Glenwood Springs, CO that was a 22 or 23 mile mountain run. And there are a couple of mountain runs out of Buena Vista – Turquoise Lake run around, and one that follows the Arkansas river up towards Leadville. These are a few of my favorite ones. Lyle K

Response:

OK, here’s what I have listed for Colorado Springs (dates are approximate, but should be within a day or two): 20 Apr     Y-Bi Classic Biathlon, Pueblo  (about 1 hr from Co Springs) 26 Apr     Peterson AFB Duathlon, Co Springs 4 Aug      Boulder Peak Triathlon, Boulder ( a couple hours from Co Springs) 18 Aug    Cherry Creek Dash Tri, Denver (about 1 hr from Co Springs) 25 Aug    Drag’n on in Triathlon, Pueblo Sorry, I don’t know any of the distances, and you should double check on the event before coming to make sure it’s still on.  Hope to see you out here! TriMorph

Response:

Does anyone know if there is going to be any races in CO Springs this summer. Looking for excuse to visit an old girlfriend. Thanx John Schiller

Response:

Yes, there will be several, but we are still working on dates. Most probably in late July, a duathlon (Clean Air Duathlon) will take place. In mid August, the sprint Monument Triathlon will take place. Steve Locke (sorry I can not give exact dates yet) USA Triathlon

Response:

John: Not to many races have been announced for Colorado yet (we are just starting to get into the snowy season).  On May 17th is the Ordinary Mortals Triathlon which is a sprint race in Pueblo, about 30 miles south of Colorado Springs.  Other races in the area normally include the Monument Sprint Tri, the Clean Air Duathlon (towards the beginning of August), and the Drag On In Tri (an Olympic distance race in Pueblo near the end of August).  If you would be interested in run only event, I would recommend the Pikes Peak ascent held in August.  It is a beautiful race that everyone should try once. I hope this helps, Chuck Berghoefer  

Response:

Does anybody know if there is a decent race in C Springs this summer that would be worth my trip up from S Florida? Would be good excuse to visit old girlfriend. Thanx in advance John Schiller

Response:

John: Not to many races have been announced for Colorado yet (we are just the end of August).  If you would be interested in run only event, I would recommend the Pikes Peak ascent held in August.  It is a beautiful race that everyone should try once.

Didn’t catch the start of this thread, but if John is looking for some Colorado running events, two stand out in my mind (from my days of living in Boulder). Recommending the Pikes Peak race is trusting that someone can manage it — it goes from 8,000 feet to nearly 13,000 feet! It’s probably the most spectacular race on the Colorado calendar, but the most demanding as well. Two races that are more "fun" — the Bolder Boulder 10k, with 35,000 people on Memorial Day; and the Garden of the Gods 10-mile a few weeks later in June, also in Colorado Springs. Running through the red-rock formations is really neat. Would make for a very memorable Colorado running experience, if you are from out-of-state and just visiting. Katherine Williams

Response:

Question:

Although Speedo Although Speedo is a massive company with World-Wide distribution, each single speedo entinity, ie. Speedo Canada, Speedo USE, is respsonsible for the licesnsing and distribution of certain products, in this case, the triathlon line, inclduding their new race wear line. This is case with their wetsuit. It is made (by contract I’d guess) for Speedo in the UK, and they’re responsible for the distribution and marketing. In speaking with Authentic Fitness Canada, the marketing firm for Speedo in Canada, said that they have no desire to license and market the wetsuit line in North America. However if you really want this suit, I’d reccommend picking up a copy of 220 magazine (UK Edition) and shop the adds in the back, a lot of the shops sell them (for muchos dineros I might add) If you want a good wetsuit, as in the best, check out the new Orca suits, they even come with a guaranty that you’ll take of at least 30 seconds within your first month. Call em @ 604.490.9097 They’ve got em. G.Bullington 604.978.1363 (no e.mail yet)

: The cover of the September 1996 issue of Inside Triathlon has Spencer : Smith wearing a wetsuit with "Speedo Triathlon" on the front.  Is speed : getting into the wetsuit business?

Response:

The cover of the September 1996 issue of Inside Triathlon has Spencer Smith wearing a wetsuit with "Speedo Triathlon" on the front.  Is speed getting into the wetsuit business?

Response:

The cover of the September 1996 issue of Inside Triathlon has Spencer Smith wearing a wetsuit with "Speedo Triathlon" on the front.  Is speed getting into the wetsuit business?

speed is already in the wetsuit business.  Speed-o has this wetsuit available in the UK, and has had a wetsuit there for many years.  Speedo’s team of pro triathletes have the Speedo wetsuit available to them.  Rumor has it, however, that much– or most– of the team is using some other suit. QRman

Response:

Question:

Is triathlon a full fledged medal event in Sydney? I was under the impression that it was a demonstration event. Jim

Triathlon is going to be the first medals presented at the 2000 Olympics.  I thinnk womens event is day one and mens is day two or vice versa, definitely full medal events though. Paul Bronson Queensland, Australia

Response:

I read the other day that, for a sport to be in the olympics, it has to be practiced and popular in at least 40 countries (or something like that). Triathlon is going to be in the year 2000 olympic games, in Sydney. However, this sport, the one we made popular and widespread in those [40] countries, is made up of three stages: swim, bike *without drafting* and run. I’m not saying they shouldn’t include a swim, bike *with drafting* and run race in the olympics, but they should first make it popular and known  in 40 different countries, because the triathlon we are used to is not that. Or are we willing to be in the olympics with a sport that’s not ours?

Response:

I read the other day that, for a sport to be in the olympics, it has to be practiced and popular in at least 40 countries (or something like that). Triathlon is going to be in the year 2000 olympic games, in Sydney. However, this sport, the one we made popular and widespread in those [40] countries, is made up of three stages: swim, bike *without drafting* and run. I’m not saying they shouldn’t include a swim, bike *with drafting* and run race in the olympics, but they should first make it popular and known in 40 different countries, because the triathlon we are used to is not that. Or are we willing to be in the olympics with a sport that’s not ours?

Is triathlon a full fledged medal event in Sydney? I was under the impression that it was a demonstration event. Jim

Response:

Is triathlon a full fledged medal event in Sydney? I was under the impression that it was a demonstration event.<

Triathlon is a full fledged medal sport.  The Olympic folks did away with demonstration sports due to the lack of room on the program.  If so, triathlon may have had its debut in Atlanta. I read the other day that, for a sport to be in the olympics, it has to be practiced and popular in at least 40 countries (or something like that). Triathlon is going to be in the year 2000 olympic games, in Sydney. However, this sport, the one we made popular and widespread in those [40] countries, is made up of three stages: swim, bike *without drafting* and run. I’m not saying they shouldn’t include a swim, bike *with drafting* and run race in the olympics, but they should first make it popular and known in 40 different countries, because the triathlon we are used to is not that. Or are we willing to be in the olympics with a sport that’s not ours?<

Very well put. Rick Margiotta

Response:

Question:

I have a trip to Korea coming up late next June.  How would I find out what running, swimming, or triathlon competitions are being held then or in July? Art Geoffrion — Anderson Grad. School of Management University of California, Los Angeles 90024

Response:

I have a trip to Korea coming up late next June.  How would I find out what running, swimming, or triathlon competitions are being held then or in July?

The Asian Triathlon Championships were held on the island of Cheju in late-July this past season, so there may be a race there again in ‘95. While you’re there, make sure to drink plenty of Sweat – a Korean version of Gatorade.  It’s really called that.  We have a can of it in our fridge right now – I’m still working up the nerve to drink it. 8^) Todd Jensen                                   o AT&T Bell Labs              ___^o_    __o    <| Naperville, IL                      _ <_    _

Response: