Question:

I should be in the Olympics if I swam 1500 in 14:30 I was generally more pleased this year as a competitor in this year’s race, last year was a 3 on a scale of 10, this year a 7.  Here are my pros/cons: Pros 1) T1 bags delivered on time, I wasn’t taking chances and handed my stuff to my wife, but from what others told me it went well. 2) The streets were in better shape this year, a lot less bumping and jarring.  The streets weren’t half as littered with stuff that had been bounced off peoples bikes. 3) Good marshalling, a lot of warnings issued (at least to the group of guys holding my wheel) which seemed to do the trick. 4) Easy access to T2 gear, nice to be able to get in get out and out of Downtown LA quickly. Cons 1) Mis-measured swim course, apparently they measured at high tide and the race started at low tide. 2) No water buckets this year to wash feet. 3) Not very spectator friendly, hard/expensive parking, poor crowd control and in some cases too much control, poor viewing spots. 4) Poor T2 location, it was one long (for 3000 competitors, very long) street, they need to find a empty parking lot or park.

Hi Tacguy, I have to agree with you 100% on your note. However: How can you put on a race with over 3000 people in it and have the swim course short by at least 1/3 of a mile? I usually swim about a 30 minute 1500 meters, but came out of the water in 18 minutes! They fixed all of the problems from previous years. The swim is the weakest part of my tri, but I do appreciate at least semi accurate course measurement. Mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after listening to various sources complain about this race the last few years, I was determined to see if it was as bad as everyone said. This morning was a fantastic day for a race, great weather and ultimately a race that was well organized. Here were some of the things that went right: Shuttles – On time! Porta-potties – Several! Race Start – On Time ( and that is alot to say about a race that has several thousand )! Bike course closure – Well moarked and ALOT of room; the whole side of a 2-3 lane roadway to be exact! Roadway – Clean ( this is a first in L.A. )! Course Volunteers – Giving ample and extra direction, that was correct! and lastly, bags returned from T1 to the finish by the end of your race! I was very happy with the race over-all. How did your race go?

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Did the elites swim the same course ?? or at a significantly different time ?? The splits listed for them don’t look out of line… although their overall times and bike splits suggest the bike course was short. ++Mark.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Tacguy, I have to agree with you 100% on your note. However: How can you put on a race with over 3000 people in it and have the swim course short by at least 1/3 of a mile? I usually swim about a 30 minute 1500 meters, but came out of the water in 18 minutes!

Response:

Did the elites swim the same course ?? or at a significantly different time ?? The splits listed for them don’t look out of line… although their overall times and bike splits suggest the bike course was short.

Was it a different wave?  Another thing Pacific Sports is known for skimping on is adequate anchors for their buoys. In Cleveland they’re inside a breakwall, and even then, the only one that never drifts is lashed to a channel marker.

Response:

They adjusted the course for the pros once they saw a lot of the age groupers pulling off sub 20′ times.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did the elites swim the same course ?? or at a significantly different time ?? The splits listed for them don’t look out of line… although their overall times and bike splits suggest the bike course was short. ++Mark. Hi Tacguy, I have to agree with you 100% on your note. However: How can you put on a race with over 3000 people in it and have the swim course short by at least 1/3 of a mile? I usually swim about a 30 minute 1500 meters, but came out of the water in 18 minutes!

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Why?  Because they’re a bunch of ripoff artists just looking to make a quick buck, and that’s the way a former race sponsor described them as well.  Their races cost twice as much as other local races, and are always fiascos.  Wherever the money’s going, it doesn’t go to serving the participants.  Things like no cold water anywhere on the course or after the race, when it’s 90F or hotter out, a water station with no cups – women with gallon water jugs shouting "tilt your head back and open your mouth"

I’m sure there’s an innappropriate comment to make here, but I’m not going to do it -Harold

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Why?  Because they’re a bunch of ripoff artists just looking to make a quick buck, and that’s the way a former race sponsor described them as well.  Their races cost twice as much as other local races, and are always fiascos.  Wherever the money’s going, it doesn’t go to serving the participants.  Things like no cold water anywhere on the course or after the race, when it’s 90F or hotter out, a water station with no cups – women with gallon water jugs shouting "tilt your head back and open your mouth" I’m sure there’s an innappropriate comment to make here, but I’m not going to do it

I already did it for you, at the water stop, to the woman with the water, during the race. And yes, because there were several of them spaced out along 75 ft. of curb, I managed to make all the comments that are running through your twisted little head.

Response:

They are the proud director’s of National City- Rock & Roll – Metropolitan Bank Tri in Cleveland.  The big downtown race.   They have destroyed this event, so no wonder the sponsorship has changed 3 times in the last 5 years.   There was a big discussion a while back on Duathlon.com about how they messed up National City (which was the ITU world Championship in 1996)

Yup, and National City pulled their sponsorship because Jack Caress was a scam artist who always had his hand out, and none of the money seemed to find it’s way to services for the participants. The races are overpriced.

You have an amazing capacity for understatement. I also throw in this nugget (Just because I know it will piss off Harold and the penguin).  They tried to have three races an Olympic (main event) a sprint (okay I’ll buy, for the beginner’s who want to have fun), but they also added this Super Sprint (which was like a 200m swim, 8 mile bike and a 1.2 mile run), which wasn’t for kids, but meant for adult "triathletes" kind of an embarrassingly short race if you ask me.  This whole gala of events (3 races occuring simultaneously on an 8 mile bike loop) meant the first race started at like 6:30 am, which is just a tad bit too early for Cleveland (Hey I can understand if it was Arizona, where the sun actually shines) plus you have athletes going drastically different speeds on a dangerous bike course.

Don’t forget that the bike course is so rough, you find water bottle CAGES along the side of the road afterwards.  Do NOT do this race without threadlocking every fastener on your bike. I also saw a really bad bike wreck during the race.  The road surface is very poor and I saw some guy hit a pot hole or a seam and just bite it bad. I think he was out cold.

You saw just one?  I’ve seen dozens over the years at that race.

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I’m not sure why it is taking Pacific Sports 3 years to get the race right. Anyone done other PS races? They are the proud director’s of National City- Rock & Roll –

Metropolitan Bank Tri in Cleveland.  The big downtown race.   They have destroyed this event, so no wonder the sponsorship has changed 3 times in the last 5 years.   There was a big discussion a while back on Duathlon.com about how they messed up National City (which was the ITU world Championship in 1996) The races are overpriced. I also throw in this nugget (Just because I know it will piss off Harold and the penguin).  They tried to have three races an Olympic (main event) a sprint (okay I’ll buy, for the beginner’s who want to have fun), but they also added this Super Sprint (which was like a 200m swim, 8 mile bike and a 1.2 mile run), which wasn’t for kids, but meant for adult "triathletes" kind of an embarrassingly short race if you ask me.  This whole gala of events (3 races occuring simultaneously on an 8 mile bike loop) meant the first race started at like 6:30 am, which is just a tad bit too early for Cleveland (Hey I can understand if it was Arizona, where the sun actually shines) plus you have athletes going drastically different speeds on a dangerous bike course. They also have a pro race, which is invite only, with only ten pros.  Why limit the number of pros?  This is just stupid in my book, but I guess I am not a marketing genius like the folks at Pacific Sports LLC. The final thing, is results.  They use the most ridiculous format for posting them on the web (just look and you’ll see, unlesst they changed it). Plus they never even proof read them.  Even 2 days after the race they had two guys listed in the top 20, with bike splits like 15 minutes faster than everyone else.  Why? the bike course is 3 loops (these guys only did two) The fact that an RD would post results with such obvious errors in them just shows they don’t even care about a quality event, and are too incompetent to time it right and to publish correct results.  I emailed them with a list of complaints (only time I ever complained to a RD) and they did fix the results within a week. I also saw a really bad bike wreck during the race.  The road surface is very poor and I saw some guy hit a pot hole or a seam and just bite it bad. I think he was out cold. BTW the last time I did it (2000) the fastest splits for the "1500m" swim was 11:00 and change, so they are quite good at shorting the swim.

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For the Olympic distance race it was a loop. Straight out (west), then left around a buoy (southwest), then right (west), then right (north).  Right again (east), another right (southeast) towards center, then left (east) to the beach.  After writing that I’m surprised I didn’t get lost.

So you had left and right turns?  I’ve never seen a course do that – triathletes aren’t that smart in the middle of a race.  I suppose for a 1500m course you either need 2 laps, or something like that.   In any event, definitely not an issue of currents, then.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

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2 lefts, 2 rights, with buoys on the right for the back stretch, here’s the link to the map: http://www.latriathlon.com/Images/Maps/02LATMap.gif If I remember correctly there were more buoys in the water then represented in the picture. It really wasn’t that bad once in the water, it just sounds bad on paper. It was really short though.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For the Olympic distance race it was a loop. Straight out (west), then left around a buoy (southwest), then right (west), then right (north).  Right again (east), another right (southeast) towards center, then left (east) to the beach.  After writing that I’m surprised I didn’t get lost. So you had left and right turns?  I’ve never seen a course do that – triathletes aren’t that smart in the middle of a race.  I suppose for a 1500m course you either need 2 laps, or something like that. In any event, definitely not an issue of currents, then. — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

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I’m not sure why it is taking Pacific Sports 3 years to get the race right. Anyone done other PS races?

It’s been about ten years in Cleveland, and they STILL haven’t gotten it right. They’ve chased away three sponsors, and another race here, the Towpath marathon, the sponsor just pulled them off of after two years.  They tried to start their own marathon, and it never got off the ground. Why?  Because they’re a bunch of ripoff artists just looking to make a quick buck, and that’s the way a former race sponsor described them as well.  Their races cost twice as much as other local races, and are always fiascos.  Wherever the money’s going, it doesn’t go to serving the participants.  Things like no cold water anywhere on the course or after the race, when it’s 90F or hotter out, a water station with no cups – women with gallon water jugs shouting "tilt your head back and open your mouth" A run course over century old cobblestone streets with gaps between  the stones wider than your foot and up to six inches deep.  less than 10 porta johns for 1200 plus participants. A marathon in a national park with no toilet facilities at the finish line without an intervening 20 minute shuttle ride, IF you don’t have to wait 40 minutes for the shuttle.

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Cons 1) Mis-measured swim course, apparently they measured at high tide and the race started at low tide. How can you put on a race with over 3000 people in it and have the swim course short by at least 1/3 of a mile? I usually swim about a 30 minute 1500 meters, but came out of the water in 18 minutes!

Was there a favorable longshore current?  The difference between low and high tide on an LA beach shouldn’t add up to 500m.  But yeah, 30 to 18 sounds like a short course if you ended up anywhere near the swim start.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

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Was there a favorable longshore current?  The difference between low and high tide on an LA beach shouldn’t add up to 500m.  But yeah, 30 to 18 sounds like a short course if you ended up anywhere near the swim start.

If it’s a question of a natural phenomenon, or Pacific Sports screwing up, the latter is the more reliable bet.

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It was a very long run in and run out of the surf.  I should have done a sub 25′, I looked at my watch when I stepped out and it read 14:30.  It took ~0:00:45 to run in, so I would say total water time was sub 14:00. Either my extra swim training is really paying off or Pacific Sports screwed up – I tend believe the later as well.  By most peoples account and there times at that distance the swim seemed to be ~1000m. I’m not sure why it is taking Pacific Sports 3 years to get the race right. Anyone done other PS races?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was there a favorable longshore current?  The difference between low and high tide on an LA beach shouldn’t add up to 500m.  But yeah, 30 to 18 sounds like a short course if you ended up anywhere near the swim start. If it’s a question of a natural phenomenon, or Pacific Sports screwing up, the latter is the more reliable bet.

Response:

For the Olympic distance race it was a loop. Straight out (west), then left around a buoy (southwest), then right (west), then right (north).  Right again (east), another right (southeast) towards center, then left (east) to the beach.  After writing that I’m surprised I didn’t get lost. So in short yes, the start and finish were very close.  This was a course change from the last two years when we started south of Venice Pier and headed North.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cons 1) Mis-measured swim course, apparently they measured at high tide and the race started at low tide. How can you put on a race with over 3000 people in it and have the swim course short by at least 1/3 of a mile? I usually swim about a 30 minute 1500 meters, but came out of the water in 18 minutes! Was there a favorable longshore current?  The difference between low and high tide on an LA beach shouldn’t add up to 500m.  But yeah, 30 to 18 sounds like a short course if you ended up anywhere near the swim start. — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

Well, after listening to various sources complain about this race the last few years, I was determined to see if it was as bad as everyone said. This morning was a fantastic day for a race, great weather and ultimately a race that was well organized. Here were some of the things that went right: Shuttles – On time! Porta-potties – Several! Race Start – On Time ( and that is alot to say about a race that has several thousand )! Bike course closure – Well moarked and ALOT of room; the whole side of a 2-3 lane roadway to be exact! Roadway – Clean ( this is a first in L.A. )! Course Volunteers – Giving ample and extra direction, that was correct! and lastly, bags returned from T1 to the finish by the end of your race! I was very happy with the race over-all. How did your race go?

Response:

Hi Tacguy, I have to agree with you 100% on your note. However: How can you put on a race with over 3000 people in it and have the swim course short by at least 1/3 of a mile? I usually swim about a 30 minute 1500 meters, but came out of the water in 18 minutes! They fixed all of the problems from previous years. The swim is the weakest part of my tri, but I do appreciate at least semi accurate course measurement. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, after listening to various sources complain about this race the last few years, I was determined to see if it was as bad as everyone said. This morning was a fantastic day for a race, great weather and ultimately a race that was well organized. Here were some of the things that went right: Shuttles – On time! Porta-potties – Several! Race Start – On Time ( and that is alot to say about a race that has several thousand )! Bike course closure – Well moarked and ALOT of room; the whole side of a 2-3 lane roadway to be exact! Roadway – Clean ( this is a first in L.A. )! Course Volunteers – Giving ample and extra direction, that was correct! and lastly, bags returned from T1 to the finish by the end of your race! I was very happy with the race over-all. How did your race go?

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Question:

Typically the event will have rules regarding wetsuits, required, allowed or not allowed. IMHO if they are allowed you should always use one. They increase buoyancy and improve times. The only caveat is if you are doing a very short race where the speed/comfort advantage won’t offset the additional time in T1 to remove the suit. Or, if the only suit you have is not good for tri and slows your stroke. BW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new with triathlon and I am wondering when to use a wetsuit, are there any special guideliness when to use it, for example water temperature is below 18 degrees celsius or so? thanks Marcel

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I am new with triathlon and I am wondering when to use a wetsuit, are there any special guideliness when to use it, for example water temperature is below 18 degrees celsius or so?

During the swim is the best time.  Seriously though, USAT regs allow unrestricted use up to 78F – above that you are ineligible for awards, and above 84F they’re banned completely.

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I am new with triathlon and I am wondering when to use a wetsuit, are there any special guideliness when to use it, for example water temperature is below 18 degrees celsius or so? thanks Marcel

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Question:

Congratulations, Dave, for a great race and new PB. Dot [report snipped]

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I agree, the mile markers were not in the right places and the road was very rough in some places.  The marathon route needs to be changed.  Only in San Antonio would they run the route over a railroad crossing.  It’s ashame the race winner had to wait for a passing train.  He lost valuable time.

Response:

Anyway, thanks to all the volunteers, even the one who called out "water?", but who handed me gatorbarf on my affirmative reply.  I luckily caught his mistake before I emptied the cup on my head. All in all it was a fun run.

Funny.  I’ve grown used to gatoraid when it used to make me sick. Your remark made me think of the time I ran a 1/2 marathon and someone was yelling "vasoline."  I didn’t think anything of it the first two years, but the last year, when I did the marathon instead, I was yelling "vasoline" at the same place and there was none. FWIW, I PB’d with a 1:31:43, but disappointed I didn’t break 1:30. I missed so many mile markers, I have no realistic splits, but know I ran negative. Oh well, now I have an excuse to go to Houston

WOW, great job Dave.  I’m slowy working on that feat myself. Roger

Response:

I agree, the mile markers were not in the right places and the road was very rough in some places.  The marathon route needs to be changed.  Only in San Antonio would they run the route over a railroad crossing.  It’s ashame the race winner had to wait for a passing train.  He lost valuable time.

In reference to: "Only in San Antonio would they run the route over a railroad crossing." Last year two different races one a marathon and the other a 1/2 marathon had runners stopped by trains. On the 1/2 marathon, the train stopped runners in 2 places, but some runners were ahead of the train and others were on the far side of the tracks, well before the second crossing, so they just kept on running. On the marathon last year, it stopped a number of people trying to break 4 hours.  This year, I broke 4, but I was still worried about a train.  I remembered it from last year when I was running the second half of a marathon relay and I had to wait for it.  Our team would have broken 4 hours, but too much time was lost and I had a lot of trouble getting started again. This year, the "Race for the Cure" and the Mason City Marathon had runners stopped by a train. So that makes 4 races in 2 years.  3 of which I had been at, 1 where I was actually stopped myself.  Try to top that. Thanks,         Roger

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Hi, Dave, Just thought I would fill you in on my impressions of the SA Marathon and Relay. It’s a fairly low key, laid back affair with only a couple of thousand runners, most of whom I would guess to be Texan. The race course had to be changed as it couldn’t be run through Fort Sam Houston, which resulted in a couple of extra hills being thrown in around miles 7 and 8.

[report snipped but appreciated] Thanks for the report and congrats on the PB! I have a personal interest in San Antone races since my wife’s son (Chris Rulon) lives and runs there. He’s also a 90-minute person for a half marathon and does some of the triathalon events there. If you see him (looks like Tom Cruise with blond hair), tell him to call his mother. Good luck in Houston. Thanks, Layne

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Good job, David. You will break 1:30 before long. It’s not an easy thing to do! — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "Courage is fear holding on a minute longer"                                         Gen. George Patton http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just thought I would fill you in on my impressions of the SA Marathon and Relay. It’s a fairly low key, laid back affair with only a couple of thousand runners, most of whom I would guess to be Texan. The race course had to be changed as it couldn’t be run through Fort Sam Houston, which resulted in a couple of extra hills being thrown in around miles 7 and 8. The race started at 7 am in 50+ F temps and visible humidity (couldn’t call it fog or mist), but not the greatest running weather. The volunteers were great, but the general public were hardly to be seen. This is not a beginners marathon. My two main gripes were that the mile markers were inconspicuous at best, and in some cases appeared not to be in the right place.  (this latter assertion is a purely subjective opinion, but was reinforced by comments from several other participants I spoke to. The second gripe cannot be laid at the organizers feet, but the condition of the road surface was terrible in places. Anyway, thanks to all the volunteers, even the one who called out "water?", but who handed me gatorbarf on my affirmative reply.  I luckily caught his mistake before I emptied the cup on my head. All in all it was a fun run. FWIW, I PB’d with a 1:31:43, but disappointed I didn’t break 1:30. I missed so many mile markers, I have no realistic splits, but know I ran negative. Oh well, now I have an excuse to go to Houston — Regards, Dave

Response:

Just thought I would fill you in on my impressions of the SA Marathon and Relay. It’s a fairly low key, laid back affair with only a couple of thousand runners, most of whom I would guess to be Texan. The race course had to be changed as it couldn’t be run through Fort Sam Houston, which resulted in a couple of extra hills being thrown in around miles 7 and 8. The race started at 7 am in 50+ F temps and visible humidity (couldn’t call it fog or mist), but not the greatest running weather. The volunteers were great, but the general public were hardly to be seen. This is not a beginners marathon. My two main gripes were that the mile markers were inconspicuous at best, and in some cases appeared not to be in the right place.  (this latter assertion is a purely subjective opinion, but was reinforced by comments from several other participants I spoke to. The second gripe cannot be laid at the organizers feet, but the condition of the road surface was terrible in places. Anyway, thanks to all the volunteers, even the one who called out "water?", but who handed me gatorbarf on my affirmative reply.  I luckily caught his mistake before I emptied the cup on my head. All in all it was a fun run. FWIW, I PB’d with a 1:31:43, but disappointed I didn’t break 1:30. I missed so many mile markers, I have no realistic splits, but know I ran negative. Oh well, now I have an excuse to go to Houston — Regards, Dave

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Question:

Radcliffe vows to continue campaign Paula Radcliffe insists she will continue her fight to expose drug cheats in athletics. The British runner knows her campaign is dangerous but says she will not be deterred. "There is a risk in rocking the boat and I realise that I could become a target for those who have something to hide," she said. "That will not stop me." More…. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/in_depth/2001/world_athletics/… Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

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Radcliffe vows to continue campaign Paula Radcliffe insists she will continue her fight to expose drug cheats in athletics. The British runner knows her campaign is dangerous but says she will not be deterred. "There is a risk in rocking the boat and I realise that I could become a target for those who have something to hide," she said. "That will not stop me."<<

Good for her. I found it hillarious that El G. could _only_ barely break 3:31 in a timetrial-type EPO-TESTED WC 1500 final when he has no trouble running 4-5 seconds faster at the invitational meets… More…. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/in_depth/2001/world_athletics/…

id_1488000/1488232.stm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ken

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Question:

RST- I plan on UPSing my bike out to SF for my first triathlon – Alcatraz on the 18th.  I would like to send it to a bike shop in the area that will reassemble it, true my back rim, recalibrate my gears and clean it up a bit. Can anyone make a suggestion about what shop to contact? TIA -Frank

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The best bike shop in SF without doubt is City Cycle 415-346-2242 – extremely competant and very professional.   If they can’t help you, Kalifornia Kool Stuff 415-674-9153 is a very good triathlon shop in SF, and they sell and service bikes as well; I’m sure they would be happy to take care of you. Mark Miller – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RST- I plan on UPSing my bike out to SF for my first triathlon – Alcatraz on the 18th.  I would like to send it to a bike shop in the area that will reassemble it, true my back rim, recalibrate my gears and clean it up a bit. Can anyone make a suggestion about what shop to contact? TIA -Frank

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The best bike shop in SF without doubt is City Cycle 415-346-2242 – extremely competant and very professional.   If they can’t help you, Kalifornia Kool Stuff 415-674-9153 is a very good triathlon shop in SF, and they sell and service bikes as well; I’m sure they would be happy to take care of you.

I second what Mark said. You will get great service at either shop. clm in sf — Cathy Morgan San Francisco, CA REMOVE ZZ ZZ to e-mail me.

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In article The best bike shop in SF without doubt is City Cycle 415-346-2242 – extremely competant and very professional.   If they can’t help you, Kalifornia Kool Stuff 415-674-9153 is a very good triathlon shop in SF, and they sell and service bikes as well; I’m sure they would be happy to take care of you. I second what Mark said. You will get great service at either shop.

i third what mark said and second what cathy said.  except that if you’re a triathlete i’d flip the order. qrman

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I second what QR man said.  Kal Kool is the best. Emilio De Soto II San Diego but they have assembled and disassembled my bike for many many Escape trips. Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

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Question:

So did I read correctly  that the Gulf Coast Triathlon is no longer an Ironman qualifying event?  I read it off the Triathlete online site.  It lists qualifiers but GCT is not one of them.  Does anyone no more about this?

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So did I read correctly  that the Gulf Coast Triathlon is no longer an Ironman qualifying event?  I read it off the Triathlete online site.  It lists qualifiers but GCT is not one of them.  Does anyone no more about this?

No, the slots have switched from GCT to Ironman Florida for next year. You’ve read correctly. The only half-Fe races that are still qualifiers are the Blackwater Eagleman in MD, the Buffalo Springs Lake Tri in TX, The Half-Vineman Tri in CA, and the Keauhou Kona Tri in HI.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

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Question:

On page 42 of the Nov ‘97 Triathlete there is a picture Nenad Rodic on his bike. Does anyone know what type of bike is pictured and if so where can I ge some info on it. Thanks, Frank Lee

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On page 42 of the Nov ‘97 Triathlete there is a picture Nenad Rodic on his bike. Does anyone know what type of bike is pictured and if so where can I ge some info on it. Thanks, Frank Lee

  It’s a Joker. A friend of mine recently bought one from Nytro and he told me he had to take it back as it developed stress fractures                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

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I happened to be camped next to Nenad  at Wildflower last May, and recognized his bike in the picture before I recognized him.  His bike is called a Joker.  It was nice and light, carbon framed, and also got a little shock absorption from the extended top tube/seat tube format. Unfortunately,  that’s all the info I have on it.   He was part of a group called the Reno Area Triathletes, so if anyone knows someone who is part of that group maybe they can tell you how to get in touch with him. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On page 42 of the Nov ‘97 Triathlete there is a picture Nenad Rodic on his bike. Does anyone know what type of bike is pictured and if so where can I ge some info on it. Thanks, Frank Lee

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Hey Frank, The bike on page 42 is a "Joker", full carbon frame & fork imported from France.  Never very popular here. We (Bonzai Sports) sold a few of them and everyone seems very happy.  I don’t think they are being imported this year, 98.  But there may be a few left from 97, e-mail me if you are interested and I can get you geometry and prices.     Bud Bonzai 703-280-2248 Bonzai Sports 8629 Lee Highway, Fairfax, Va.  22031 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On page 42 of the Nov ‘97 Triathlete there is a picture Nenad Rodic on his bike. Does anyone know what type of bike is pictured and if so where can I ge some info on it. Thanks, Frank Lee

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Question:

My husband did the GF this year, and while I was walking around lake Minneola cheering people on, I did notice a lot of burping and (heh heh) farting – more so than at other long distance races I’ve been to.  I talked to my husband and a few others after the race who all felt strongly (this isn’t an anti-product slam or anything) that it was the race day drink that everyone had.  Doug felt a lot better once he passed it up for plain water and the chicken broth at the aid stations.  Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before?  Maybe there is some sort of Great Floridian Duck that I don’t know about that was in its mating season – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

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Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

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I did the Great Floridian this year.  My swim time is listed as 1:07:26.  I had no stomach problem after I came out of the water.  I had some dehydration and lack of calories problem during the early part of the run, which I attribute to not eating and drinking enough during the bike. Eric Weiss – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

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My husband did the GF this year, and while I was walking around lake Minneola cheering people on, I did notice a lot of burping and (heh heh) farting – more so than at other long distance races I’ve been to.  I talked to my husband and a few others after the race who all felt strongly (this isn’t an anti-product slam or anything) that it was the race day drink that everyone had.  Doug felt a lot better once he passed it up for plain water and the chicken broth at the aid stations.  Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before?  Maybe there is some sort of Great Floridian Duck that I don’t know about that was in its mating season – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

Response:

Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

O good friend of mine did very poorly this year and attributes it to the swim. He normally can do the distance in under an hour and it took him two, vomiting several times during the swim. Needless to say the rest of the day was shot.. He attributes it to some sort of fuel in the water, says he could taste it in his mouth several times. Definitely a possibility considering the number of boats around during the race.

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I don’t remember anything about GFT except an unbelievable sense of pride, exhilaration, and joy at having finished.  If I was sick, I either didn’t notice, or wrote it off to extreme exertion at the time. John (Faith) Ft. Washington, MD

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Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before?  

‘Tis "the order of things" for an IM. The stress of the race wreaks havoc on the digestive system. -Rolf — I am Iron Mac.            The Ironman is over in the blink of an eye.                                                    Enjoy it! IMC’94/14:07    IMC’95/11:59    IMC’97/12:12    IMC’98/Confirmed

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I seriously doubt it was the Race Drink.  We served Race Day at 60 Triathlons and about ten Road Races last summer.   Every member of the USAT World Duathlon an World Triathlon teams received free product from us.  In fact we gave out over 100,000 samples last year and received no comments about stomach distress.  One gentleman from Mobile who did have an up set stomach thought it might have been due to a questionable chinese meal he had the night before.  Not everyone can tolerate all products so you usually expect some individual sensativities to spring up, but when a large group a people seem to be burping…maybe the volunteers mixed the drink with chili sauce instead of water.  I have heard of a few cases where bacteria in the swim water caused large groups of people to have the typical gastric symptoms.  If anyone has a concern about the product they Tom Cox – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband did the GF this year, and while I was walking around lake Minneola cheering people on, I did notice a lot of burping and (heh heh) farting – more so than at other long distance races I’ve been to.  I talked to my husband and a few others after the race who all felt strongly (this isn’t an anti-product slam or anything) that it was the race day drink that everyone had.  Doug felt a lot better once he passed it up for plain water and the chicken broth at the aid stations.  Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before?  Maybe there is some sort of Great Floridian Duck that I don’t know about that was in its mating season Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson

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Mike;  I didn’t suffer from stomach upset but could smell deisel fuel periodically throughout the swim.

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i had definate stomache problems starting early on during the bike, i have no idea why, but i stayed queesy throughout the race tim hignett buaidh no bas

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the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem?

I found the exhaust from the support motor boats (which managed to place themselves upwind) to be quite annoying but other than that I felt alright. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I learned the meaning of life, but I forgot to write it down.

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One of my mates tossed his cookies (what was left !) three times on the run, but he doesn’t attribute it to anything in particular. I felt fine (stomach-wise) all day, but I did hear a lot of people saying the drink was pretty odd-tasting. I’ve never had a problem in any race with whatever the drink, except maybe that fizzy one (AllSport?). I thought the fuel fumes in the water was normal ! I know I’ve done a few lake swims where there have been powerboats around, and smelled the fumes,  but that was a tadeoff for the possible help they could have provided ! I guess I’m just lucky. Cheers Barry

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I did notice that I passed a lot of gas during the run.  Two of my friends also mentioned the same thing happened to them.  Could this be due to the choline in the sport drink?   Cheers, Som – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

If your seatpost even flexes at all, it won’t do much for ride comfort. Is this statement based on demostrable fact or merely opinion?

If you feel the need to demonstrate the obvious, go ahead.  Seatposts don’t flex vertically.  Even an angled one with a lot of fore-and-aft movement isn’t moving up and down much.  Your seat itself, your tires, and even your flesh are absorbing a lot more force than your seatpost. How can getting "behind the pedals" help the legs absorb shock?  With this logic a recumbent rider can absorb a *lot* of road shock with their legs, something that is clearly not the case.

That’s a ridiculous analogy. The biomechanics of this are too complicated to explain here and now.  Maybe some other time. Opinons about bike fit are like ears: everyone’s got a couple.

The mechanics of bike fit are well understood, and the knowledge is successfully used by good bike designers. Matt O.

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If you feel the need to demonstrate the obvious, go ahead.  Seatposts don’t flex vertically.  Even an angled one with a lot of fore-and-aft movement isn’t moving up and down much.  Your seat itself, your tires, and even your flesh are absorbing a lot more force than your seatpost.

Point conceded. How can getting "behind the pedals" help the legs absorb shock?  With this logic a recumbent rider can absorb a *lot* of road shock with their legs, something that is clearly not the case. That’s a ridiculous analogy.

Why?  I’m simply taking your argument to the extreme. The biomechanics of this are too complicated to explain here and now.  Maybe some other time.

Sound like a cop out, Matt.  Could you at least provide some references?   Opinons about bike fit are like ears: everyone’s got a couple. The mechanics of bike fit are well understood, and the knowledge is successfully used by good bike designers.

GMAB.  Perhaps you can tell me what biomechanical work went into KOPS recommendation or why there is such a thing as "revisionist frame sizing" or why Gary Klein has his own unique sizing recommendation. What is universally agreed upon is there is nothing universally agreed upon.   Matt O.

Mark

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Seat tube angle is usually 73 degrees or less for people riding around others. Steeper angles than that begin to compromise your agility on the bike, because your arms have to bear too much weight when you stand.

Huh?  When you stand? Triathlon bikes are generally steeper, some up to 78 degrees, and track bikes are often 75 degrees.

This is to get god aero positoning on a tri bike, and good aero and spinning position on a track bike. But unless you are specialized as such, you will be within about 1 degree of 73 degrees.

Yes.  It should also be pointed out that the range of adjustment of most seatposts will make as big a difference in rider position as the seat tube angle.  If you factor in that seatposts are available with different amounts of setback, you’ll see that seapost angle makes even less difference.  However, it may need to be taken into account with other measurements, like top tube length, for a perfect fit. The head tube angle largely determines the front wheel trail,or caster. Most forks only come with one fork offset (45 mm for off-road), thus the only variable for adjusting trail is head angle, or getting a custom fork. There is a fairly significant difference between an MTB fork with 45 mm offset on a 73.5 degree head angle bike and a 71 degree head angle bike. I just made this change, and 71 degrees is a lot more stable and less twitchy. But as far as I figure, head angle is only important in how it interacts with fork offset to produce trail.

This is true.  Head angle itself does matter, but much less than its effect on trail.   I had an old rigid mountain bike with a 69 or 70 deg head angle.  It was still a twitchy bike because it had a really big fork offset, over 2".  When people jack their front ends up with tall suspension forks, the resulting slow steering comes from too much trail, not the slack head angle.  This is one reason AMP made their forks with more offset than RS or Manitou.  AMP forks were taller, and that had to be compensated for, unless the frame was designed for them to begin with. Well, the further the front wheel contact patch falls behindthe axis of the head tube, the more stable the front end becomes, and the slower the bike will turn. 73-74 degrees is a fast turning twitchy bike, while 69 degrees is a veritable slug around turns, but very stable.

Not necessarily.  I’ve ridden a couple of sweet handling bikes with less than 70 deg head angles.  No single measurement can be taken out of context.  It’s the combination that counts.  A slack angled bike with a short front center, and healthy fork offset, will still handle quickly. Most people only consider this relevant for fitting your torso, butothers figure differently. Among others, Eddie Merckx used to suggest a longer top tube and a shorter stem as a way to a nicer ride. The wheelbase is longer, but the front end steering is the same. Most riders find it more comfortable without much if any noticeable decrease in handling. Gary Fisher began to use the same concept this year and called it ‘Genesis’ geometry like he invented it. I had already spec’d a bike with the same geometry for the same reason – it is a more comfortable ride. The longer wheel base offers more filtering of the road underneath the bike.

A longer wheelbase is more comfortable, but more weight on the saddle and the rear wheel can make for a harsher ride.  Less weight on the front wheel of a mountain bike means washouts in tight singletrack. Matt O.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     head tube angle The head tube angle largely determines the front wheel trail,or caster. Most forks only come with one fork offset (45 mm for off-road), thus the only variable for adjusting trail is head angle, or getting a custom fork. There is a fairly significant difference between an MTB fork with 45 mm offset on a 73.5 degree head angle bike and a 71 degree head angle bike. I just made this change, and 71 degrees is a lot more stable and less twitchy. But as far as I figure, head angle is only important in how it interacts with fork offset to produce trail. top tube length Most people only consider this relevant for fitting your torso, butothers figure differently. Among others, Eddie Merckx used to suggest a longer top tube and a shorter stem as a way to a nicer ride. The wheelbase is longer, but the front end steering is the same. Most riders find it more comfortable without much if any noticeable decrease in handling. Gary Fisher began to use the same concept this year and called it ‘Genesis’ geometry like he invented it. I had already spec’d a bike with the same geometry for the same reason – it is a more comfortable ride. The longer wheel base offers more filtering of the road underneath the bike.

        I find that the head angle, top tube & stem dimensions do come into play in how the bike handles in more extreme terrain.  The head angle not only affects trail, but it also affects the front-center (distance from BB to front axle) and wheelbase.  Front-center is of course also very closely related to top tube length.  Bikes with a short front-centers are less stable on very steep downhills, as it overloads the front wheel.  On the other hand, on very tight and twisty trails, or trails that require a lot of manuevering, a long front-center can make the steering much slower.  In addition, a bike with a long stem can make very sharp (low speed) turns more awkward, as the bars must be swung wider for the same steering angle. Mark McMaster

Response:

    Just purchased an MTB for my son. Standing it next to mine, it     was clear that the frame, although nearly the same size, was     shaped differently. Most noticeable was that the seat and head     tubes were closer to vertical. Measurement of most dimensions     seemed fairly close except that the top tube on my bike was     about 1" longer.     I know that different bikes have different geometry. But except     for "short chain stays help climbing" I don’t recall seeing     any general descriptions of how aspects of frame geometry affect     bike handling and feel. The things I’m curious about are:     seat tube angle

Seat tube angle is usually 73 degrees or less for people riding around others. Steeper angles than that begin to compromise your agility on the bike, because your arms have to bear too much weight when you stand. Triathlon bikes are generally steeper, some up to 78 degrees, and track bikes are often 75 degrees. But unless you are specialized as such, you will be within about 1 degree of 73 degrees.     head tube angle

The head tube angle largely determines the front wheel trail,or caster. Most forks only come with one fork offset (45 mm for off-road), thus the only variable for adjusting trail is head angle, or getting a custom fork. There is a fairly significant difference between an MTB fork with 45 mm offset on a 73.5 degree head angle bike and a 71 degree head angle bike. I just made this change, and 71 degrees is a lot more stable and less twitchy. But as far as I figure, head angle is only important in how it interacts with fork offset to produce trail.     front wheel caster (Think that’s what it’s called. The distance         between the centerline of the head tube and the center of         the front axle, and I’d guess the head tube angle figures         into this also…)

Well, the further the front wheel contact patch falls behindthe axis of the head tube, the more stable the front end becomes, and the slower the bike will turn. 73-74 degrees is a fast turning twitchy bike, while 69 degrees is a veritable slug around turns, but very stable. top tube length

Most people only consider this relevant for fitting your torso, butothers figure differently. Among others, Eddie Merckx used to suggest a longer top tube and a shorter stem as a way to a nicer ride. The wheelbase is longer, but the front end steering is the same. Most riders find it more comfortable without much if any noticeable decrease in handling. Gary Fisher began to use the same concept this year and called it ‘Genesis’ geometry like he invented it. I had already spec’d a bike with the same geometry for the same reason – it is a more comfortable ride. The longer wheel base offers more filtering of the road underneath the bike. wodeman

Response:

The general consensus is that the shallower the seat tube, the more comfortable the ride.  IMO, this is partly due the increased flex of the seatpost partly because the longer chainstays, which must be used to maintain proper weight distribution, reduce the severity of the bumps.

If your seatpost even flexes at all, it won’t do much for ride comfort.  The main effect of a slack seat tube on a mountain bike is that it puts the rider more behind the pedals, a better position from which to absorb bumps with the legs while pedaling. A bike with a slack seat tube angle can also have really short chainstays.  Rhygin frames are one example of this. Top tube length increases the wheelbase which does affect handling, but IMO should be selected based on your particular physiology, not its affect on handling.

A longer top tube can be offset by a slacker seat tube angle.  The real measurement to be concerned with is front center, the horizontal distance between the bottom bracket and the front wheel’s axle/contact patch.  This measurement isn’t usually given, but a quick look at the other measurements is enough to figure the difference between two bikes’ front centers. Matt O.

Response:

        Steeper seat tubes put more weight over the front of the bike, and are generally used in times when power is essential (typical time trial bikes and track bikes have very steep seat tubes).  As far as comfort goes, though, steeper seat tubes will really be noticeable in how much of a beating you are taking.

I was under the impression that steep seat tubes are used in applications where aerodynamics are paramount (i.e. time trials), because it facilitates a flat back position without extreme upper/lower body angles.   Bottom bracket height- lower BB’s generally mean a more stable ride.  Bikes with high BB’s (trials bikes, cyclocross, criterium bikes) tend to be less stable at speed but quicker handling.

I agree with you in theory, but I think BB height is less of a factor than we’re led to believe.  The difference between a "euro" road racing and cyclcross frame is a whopping 3/4".  For me, that’s less than a 2% increase in CG.  IMO, steering geometry has a much larger influence on the handling of different types of bikes. Mark

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SO can any of you suggest a good reference for frame designs?  I am looking to build a few bikes and haven’t been able to find anything with comprehensive design explanations.  Any help would be appreciated. thanx, Chris Johannsen ". . . it surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together."

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Barta) writes:    Just purchased an MTB for my son. Standing it next to mine, it    was clear that the frame, although nearly the same size, was    shaped differently. Most noticeable was that the seat and head    tubes were closer to vertical. Measurement of most dimensions    seemed fairly close except that the top tube on my bike was    about 1" longer.    I know that different bikes have different geometry. But except    for "short chain stays help climbing" I don’t recall seeing    any general descriptions of how aspects of frame geometry affect    bike handling and feel. The things I’m curious about are:    seat tube angle    Steeper seat tubes put more weight over the front of the bike, and are generally used in times when power is essential (typical time trial bikes and track bikes have very steep seat tubes).  As far as comfort goes, though, steeper seat tubes will really be noticeable in how much of a beating you are taking.

Not necessarily.  It’s true that if you have a shallow seat tube angle, your legs are in a better position to absorb bumps while also pedaling.  However, if you’re leaned forward far enough, with a low and/or long stem, your arms will take more of your weight, and you won’t feel the bumps under your butt as much, no matter what the seat tube angle is.  Plus, more weight on your arms, and on the front wheel, means your suspension fork is doing more of the work.    head tube angle    As a rule of thumb, steeper head tubes make for quicker steering. A laid back head tube is sluggish on singletrack, but is fairly stable, so is nice at high speeds (touring road bikes and downhill bikes tend to have laid-back head tubes).

A shallow head angle coupled with a short top tube/front center can also make for a quick steering bike.    front wheel caster (Think that’s what it’s called. The distance       between the centerline of the head tube and the center of       the front axle, and I’d guess the head tube angle figures       into this also…) top tube length

Caster is the same thing as the head tube angle, comparing autos to bikes. This is generally called "trail".  Typical trail for a MTB is around 3 inches or so.  Anything less makes the front wheel quite squirmy and holding a straight line is nearly impossible.  Some other factors:

Trail is trail, no matter how you look at it. Wheelbase- distance between center of front hub and center of rear parallel to ground.  LOnger wheelbase lends greater stability and less maneuverability. The common tradeoff for a good singletrack, technical bike is squirrely handling but great manueverability.

Not necessarily.  Rider dimensions vary a lot more than bike dimensions, and bikes can be both quick and stable, or sluggish and squirrely, depending on a combination of design factors, as well as how that bike fits a particular rider.  If you ride a lot of bikes, you’ll see that the crap you read in magazines about this is just that:  crap.  A lot of the time, their measurements don’t even add up, if you bothered to work them out.  Quoting their measurements, they’ll say a bike is short, steep, and quick, when it’s really dead average, dimension-wise.  They also often gather riding impressions that are the exact opposite of what the measurements would imply. Mostly, they don’t know what they’re talking about, and even if their observations are correct, they’re greatly exaggerated, in the interest of having something to write about. Bottom bracket height- lower BB’s generally mean a more stable ride.  Bikes with high BB’s (trials bikes, cyclocross, criterium bikes) tend to be less stable at speed but quicker handling.

Taken alone, this measurement, like any other, is meaningless.  The range of common measurements here is pretty small, too, and I doubt it has much effect on anything anyway. Length of stem- more maneuverability at shorter lengths.  

Baloney, for reasonable stem lengths.  More important (with a mountain bike) is the stem’s effect on weight distribution.  A short stem can mean not enough weight on the front wheel, causing it to drift and wash out. Of course, these are all generalizations.  

Yes, they are, and out of context, perhaps inaccurate.    Opinions?

You just got them.    Facts?

I think so. Matt O.

Response:

   Just purchased an MTB for my son. Standing it next to mine, it    was clear that the frame, although nearly the same size, was    shaped differently. Most noticeable was that the seat and head    tubes were closer to vertical. Measurement of most dimensions    seemed fairly close except that the top tube on my bike was    about 1" longer.    I know that different bikes have different geometry. But except    for "short chain stays help climbing" I don’t recall seeing    any general descriptions of how aspects of frame geometry affect    bike handling and feel. The things I’m curious about are:    seat tube angle

        Steeper seat tubes put more weight over the front of the bike, and are generally used in times when power is essential (typical time trial bikes and track bikes have very steep seat tubes).  As far as comfort goes, though, steeper seat tubes will really be noticeable in how much of a beating you are taking.    head tube angle

        As a rule of thumb, steeper head tubes make for quicker steering.  A laid back head tube is sluggish on singletrack, but is fairly stable, so is nice at high speeds (touring road bikes and downhill bikes tend to have laid-back head tubes).    front wheel caster (Think that’s what it’s called. The distance    between the centerline of the head tube and the center of    the front axle, and I’d guess the head tube angle figures    into this also…) top tube length

This is generally called "trail".  Typical trail for a MTB is around 3 inches or so.  Anything less makes the front wheel quite squirmy and holding a straight line is nearly impossible.  Some other factors: Wheelbase- distance between center of front hub and center of rear parallel to ground.  LOnger wheelbase lends greater stability and less maneuverability. The common tradeoff for a good singletrack, technical bike is squirrely handling but great manueverability. Bottom bracket height- lower BB’s generally mean a more stable ride.  Bikes with high BB’s (trials bikes, cyclocross, criterium bikes) tend to be less stable at speed but quicker handling. Length of stem- more maneuverability at shorter lengths.   Of course, these are all generalizations.  Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Opinions?    Facts?    Comparisons?    (I’ll bet Sheldon "I know my geometry" Brown might know something    about this    regards,    hank — Hank Barta                              White Oak Software Inc.            Beautiful Sunny Winfield, Illinois

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    Just purchased an MTB for my son. Standing it next to mine, it     was clear that the frame, although nearly the same size, was     shaped differently. Most noticeable was that the seat and head     tubes were closer to vertical. Measurement of most dimensions     seemed fairly close except that the top tube on my bike was     about 1" longer.     I know that different bikes have different geometry. But except     for "short chain stays help climbing" I don’t recall seeing     any general descriptions of how aspects of frame geometry affect     bike handling and feel. The things I’m curious about are:     seat tube angle     head tube angle     front wheel caster (Think that’s what it’s called. The distance         between the centerline of the head tube and the center of         the front axle, and I’d guess the head tube angle figures         into this also…) top tube length     Opinions?     Facts?     Comparisons?     (I’ll bet Sheldon "I know my geometry" Brown might know something     about this     regards,     hank — Hank Barta                              White Oak Software Inc.                 Beautiful Sunny Winfield, Illinois

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Question:

I would say a 10 hour Vineman time and a 3 hour marathon time are both a little too optimistic.  I also did a 4:39 at Mike and Rob’s last year. Don’t forget that bike course is 52, not 56 miles.  Your are trying to do double the distance at Vineman in just about double the time.  I did the half Vineman in 1993 in 5:03.  The 2 Ironman distances I did were a 12:42 in Ironman Canada in 93 and 12:35 in the Esprit Triathlon in Montreal in 94.  My point is you inevitable slow down when you double the distance. For me, It took 2 and half times as long to go from half ironman to ironman distance.  Also, a 3 hour run is even faster then most pros are able to do.  I usually average about a 7:15 pace in half ironmans and I have a marathon PR of 3:08, but my 2 ironman runs were a dismal 4:45 and 4:40.  You might be better off shooting for a 12 hour race and a 3:45 or 4 hour marathon.  The run at Vineman isn’t too tough, but It could be a hot day.  Good Luck!!!! Barry Bruckman                 Dallas, Tx

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would say a 10 hour Vineman time and a 3 hour marathon time are both a little too optimistic.  I also did a 4:39 at Mike and Rob’s last year. Don’t forget that bike course is 52, not 56 miles.  Your are trying to do double the distance at Vineman in just about double the time.  I did the half Vineman in 1993 in 5:03.  The 2 Ironman distances I did were a 12:42 in Ironman Canada in 93 and 12:35 in the Esprit Triathlon in Montreal in 94.  My point is you inevitable slow down when you double the distance. For me, It took 2 and half times as long to go from half ironman to ironman distance.  Also, a 3 hour run is even faster then most pros are able to do.  I usually average about a 7:15 pace in half ironmans and I have a marathon PR of 3:08, but my 2 ironman runs were a dismal 4:45 and 4:40.  You might be better off shooting for a 12 hour race and a 3:45 or 4 hour marathon.  The run at Vineman isn’t too tough, but It could be a hot day.  Good Luck!!!! Barry Bruckman                 Dallas, Tx

RRIIIIIIINNNGGG!!! Thanks for the wake up call. I know it sounds naive, but I really had no idea of how the times would translate. It really helps to see that we had similar times at Mike and Rob’s (I actually had 53 miles plus for the bike, despite the official measurement) and it projected to 2 1/2 times for the full ironman. I’ll keep that in mind when I get off the bike, and start plodding along on the run. My new goal is then: break a half day! Thanks, Cesar Valverde

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