Question:

Thanks for the reply, Rob.  I always enjoy reading your posts here. Actually, biking is hurting more than running right now.  I need to raise the seat as high as I can so that load on the knee is in the least bent position possible. Any hope of beating diabetes?  Cures on the horizon?

: : Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst : fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, : "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking : as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming. What : else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else you : can do." : : Brian, : : Unlike Eduardo’s prediction, I won’t suggest you drop your doctor. On : the other hand, I would suggest that you get a second opinion from a : sports medicine specialist. While I wouldn’t bet the house on it, : there may be a way to salvage something – perhaps just the cycling, : but at least it’s something. : : I disagree with your physician for saying "That’s just it – there : isn’t anything else you can do." There are things. : : Race walking does a lot to protect the knee and hip joints. Ok, it : looks stupid as all getout. But who knows – maybe you’ll get good at : it and become famous in Europe! There are other aerobic exercises : available as well. A sports medicine specialist will know these and : help you. : : Finally, I will agree with Eduardo on one point. Some of us can’t get : back to running no matter what. As a diabetic, my two biggest fears : are diabetic neuropathy of the feet and diabetic retinopathy. I’ve : started training for a triathlon, and while it started out as a way to : try to lose the weight that marathons alone won’t get rid of, I now : realize that it’s preparing me for the day when I have to first give : up running and then biking. Swimming, which I’m terrible at right now, : is something that I can hang onto. : : With any luck, that will be in my 110s, but who knows? : : Rob

Response:

VMO is the fourth muscle in quad.  It’s on the inside of the leg, just above the knee.  Apparently, runners have this problem from time-to-time.  Running develops the outside quad, but not the VMO.

: : Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst : fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, : "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking : as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming. What : else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else you : can do." : : Apparently my knees are so out of whack that spurs are growing now and I’ve : already caused considerable damage.  God, I can’t believe this.  I LOVE : running.  And biking.  I’ve been doing triathlons for a couple of years now. : But if I keep it up, the pain I feel all the time will just get worse until : I can’t even walk. : : And the thing is- this guy used to be the doc for a triathlon team.  He : knows his stuff.  I pleaded, cajoled and almost cried, I think.  So he : relented a bit.  I run and bike for 8-10 more weeks, while doing tons of : stretching and try to strengthen my VMO muscle.  If it doesn’t re-align my : knees, I can get injections (3 every 2 weeks in each knee) which will help : lubricate the joints, but won’t last more than 6 months or so.  After that, : arthroscopic surgery could shave some bone and MAY work, with a 3 month : recovery period, but no guarantees. : : Whats your VMO? I have a turned out leg that I’ve had my : entire life. Justwondering if you’re talking about a similar : situation? : : ~Matt : : : I’m in hell.  I’ve built my life around 3 major things- running/biking being : one of them.  I love challenging myself.  Going farther, faster, etc. This : just totally bites.  But I’m doing the stretching.  Bet I’ll get the shots : too before I give up. : : Thanks for listening to my whine.  I appreciate you all. : : Peace, : Brian : : :

Response:

Thanks for all the suggestions- I’m still giving some thought to all this. I know I can’t rollerblade- the doc says that with the knee position, I’ll be doing damage.  But roller skis?  Hmmmm… Thanks again!

: What a nightmare.  I recommend that you keep pushing your body short : of increasing joint wear. : : How about roller skis?  The xcountry skiers seem to have very little : knee flex.  We have this paved bike path system that would be perfect : for roller skis and they have become quite sophisticated in Austria, : Switzerland and Scandinavia where the pros train year round. : : Cross country skiing offers at least as great a workout as running or : cycling without the knee flex of either.  Perhaps some scandinavians : with worn knees could advise on this. : : Also, can you do long walks?  Hiking in the hills can be a great : challenge. : : If you get the surgery and do the rehab and avoid running and cycling : then you might get decades of activity.  BTW, you could even accompany : cyclists with roller skis.  Make sure you find someone who can advise : you how to avoid futher wear, esp. through work on flexibility, muscle : balance and form. : : For winter training, the indoor ski trainers would work, as would : nordic skiing if you have access. : :

: Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst : fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, : "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking : as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming. What : else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else you : can do." : : Apparently my knees are so out of whack that spurs are growing now and I’ve : already caused considerable damage.  God, I can’t believe this.  I LOVE : running.  And biking.  I’ve been doing triathlons for a couple of years now. : But if I keep it up, the pain I feel all the time will just get worse until : I can’t even walk. : : And the thing is- this guy used to be the doc for a triathlon team.  He : knows his stuff.  I pleaded, cajoled and almost cried, I think.  So he : relented a bit.  I run and bike for 8-10 more weeks, while doing tons of : stretching and try to strengthen my VMO muscle.  If it doesn’t re-align my : knees, I can get injections (3 every 2 weeks in each knee) which will help : lubricate the joints, but won’t last more than 6 months or so.  After that, : arthroscopic surgery could shave some bone and MAY work, with a 3 month : recovery period, but no guarantees. : : I’m in hell.  I’ve built my life around 3 major things- running/biking being : one of them.  I love challenging myself.  Going farther, faster, etc. This : just totally bites.  But I’m doing the stretching.  Bet I’ll get the shots : too before I give up. : : Thanks for listening to my whine.  I appreciate you all. : : Peace, : Brian

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Her doctor finally told her last year that some people have Midas knees, some have Goodyear, some Cooper.  "You," he said, "didn’t even get Kmart knees." This, unfortunately, is an admission rarely made around these parts. It seems that in the estimation of many rec.running congregants, knee problems invariably result from negligence and/or ignorance on the part of the knee owner. You are not alone: Supposedly one only has foot problems because one always wore shoes, didn’t run enough on soft surfaces with bare feet, hammered ones feet flat with high impact heel strikes and is overweight. But if you train properly, reduce your shoes to a bare minimum, and land ball/midfoot all will be well and natures clock will be turned back. Or so. :-} Yup, I suspect a lot of the folklore in this newgroup has led to greater injuries for many people. But it’s so engrained here that it’s heresy to challenge the doctrine of rr and ultimately an exercise in futility.

In the fat burning zone?

Response:

: Hi, Brian, : : : Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst : fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, : "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking : as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming. What : else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else you : can do." : : [snip] : : Bummer, is something going around? The spurs are not good and you’re right : they can cause some additional damage if they continue to grow. IMHO, the : bone shaving might help short term but the realignment is more important. But I wonder if stretching and strengthening the VMO will help realign?  I sure hope so. : : While the physician is doing the evaluation, would this be a good time to : help out at events or would that just be painful? I know, it’s not the same : but with your background, you’d be a great person to have around and could : really help a lot of people. FWIW, don’t give up yet (and I don’t think that : you would). Yeah, no giving up yet.  I may just do the helping out thing- thanks for the suggestion! : : Bummer. : : Hang in, : Layne : Thanks again, Brian : The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running : :

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Her doctor finally told her last year that some people have Midas knees, some have Goodyear, some Cooper.  "You," he said, "didn’t even get Kmart knees." This, unfortunately, is an admission rarely made around these parts. It seems that in the estimation of many rec.running congregants, knee problems invariably result from negligence and/or ignorance on the part of the knee owner. You are not alone: Supposedly one only has foot problems because one always wore shoes, didn’t run enough on soft surfaces with bare feet, hammered ones feet flat with high impact heel strikes and is overweight. But if you train properly, reduce your shoes to a bare minimum, and land ball/midfoot all will be well and natures clock will be turned back. Or so. :-}

Yup, I suspect a lot of the folklore in this newgroup has led to greater injuries for many people. But it’s so engrained here that it’s heresy to challenge the doctrine of rr and ultimately an exercise in futility.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming.  What else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else you can do." Apparently my knees are so out of whack that spurs are growing now and I’ve already caused considerable damage.  God, I can’t believe this.  I LOVE running.  And biking.  I’ve been doing triathlons for a couple of years now. But if I keep it up, the pain I feel all the time will just get worse until I can’t even walk. And the thing is- this guy used to be the doc for a triathlon team.  He knows his stuff.  I pleaded, cajoled and almost cried, I think.  So he relented a bit.  I run and bike for 8-10 more weeks, while doing tons of stretching and try to strengthen my VMO muscle.  If it doesn’t re-align my knees, I can get injections (3 every 2 weeks in each knee) which will help lubricate the joints, but won’t last more than 6 months or so.  After that, arthroscopic surgery could shave some bone and MAY work, with a 3 month recovery period, but no guarantees.

        Whats your VMO? I have a turned out leg that I’ve had my entire life. Justwondering if you’re talking about a similar situation? ~Matt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m in hell.  I’ve built my life around 3 major things- running/biking being one of them.  I love challenging myself.  Going farther, faster, etc.  This just totally bites.  But I’m doing the stretching.  Bet I’ll get the shots too before I give up. Thanks for listening to my whine.  I appreciate you all. Peace, Brian

Response:

not be optimally built–or even close to it–for running. Maybe exercise must come in another form for some of us. ES: I had a friend who was quite athletic in HS and college, and a bit less so afterward, who has had constant problems with her knees.  Her doctor finally told her last year that some people have Midas knees, some have Goodyear, some Cooper.  "You," he said, "didn’t even get Kmart knees." Brian Jones

Response:

may not be optimally built–or even close to it–for running. Maybe exercise must come in another form for some of us. ES: I had a friend who was quite athletic in HS and college, and a bit less so afterward, who has had constant problems with her knees.  Her doctor finally told her last year that some people have Midas knees, some have Goodyear, some Cooper.  "You," he said, "didn’t even get Kmart knees."

This, unfortunately, is an admission rarely made around these parts. It seems that in the estimation of many rec.running congregants, knee problems invariably result from negligence and/or ignorance on the part of the knee owner. To those who can make simple (or drastic) form changes or can otherwise appease their knees with, say, a new type of shoe, I say this: count your blessings–both of them. — Eduardo Suastegui "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (remove ‘701′ when replying via e-mail)

Response:

What a nightmare.  I recommend that you keep pushing your body short of increasing joint wear. How about roller skis?  The xcountry skiers seem to have very little knee flex.  We have this paved bike path system that would be perfect for roller skis and they have become quite sophisticated in Austria, Switzerland and Scandinavia where the pros train year round. Cross country skiing offers at least as great a workout as running or cycling without the knee flex of either.  Perhaps some scandinavians with worn knees could advise on this. Also, can you do long walks?  Hiking in the hills can be a great challenge. If you get the surgery and do the rehab and avoid running and cycling then you might get decades of activity.  BTW, you could even accompany cyclists with roller skis.  Make sure you find someone who can advise you how to avoid futher wear, esp. through work on flexibility, muscle balance and form. For winter training, the indoor ski trainers would work, as would nordic skiing if you have access. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming.  What else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else you can do." Apparently my knees are so out of whack that spurs are growing now and I’ve already caused considerable damage.  God, I can’t believe this.  I LOVE running.  And biking.  I’ve been doing triathlons for a couple of years now. But if I keep it up, the pain I feel all the time will just get worse until I can’t even walk. And the thing is- this guy used to be the doc for a triathlon team.  He knows his stuff.  I pleaded, cajoled and almost cried, I think.  So he relented a bit.  I run and bike for 8-10 more weeks, while doing tons of stretching and try to strengthen my VMO muscle.  If it doesn’t re-align my knees, I can get injections (3 every 2 weeks in each knee) which will help lubricate the joints, but won’t last more than 6 months or so.  After that, arthroscopic surgery could shave some bone and MAY work, with a 3 month recovery period, but no guarantees. I’m in hell.  I’ve built my life around 3 major things- running/biking being one of them.  I love challenging myself.  Going farther, faster, etc.  This just totally bites.  But I’m doing the stretching.  Bet I’ll get the shots too before I give up. Thanks for listening to my whine.  I appreciate you all. Peace, Brian

Response:

Her doctor finally told her last year that some people have Midas knees, some have Goodyear, some Cooper.  "You," he said, "didn’t even get Kmart knees." This, unfortunately, is an admission rarely made around these parts. It seems that in the estimation of many rec.running congregants, knee problems invariably result from negligence and/or ignorance on the part of the knee owner.

You are not alone: Supposedly one only has foot problems because one always wore shoes, didn’t run enough on soft surfaces with bare feet, hammered ones feet flat with high impact heel strikes and is overweight. But if you train properly, reduce your shoes to a bare minimum, and land ball/midfoot all will be well and natures clock will be turned back. Or so. :-} Whenever I get down because my body just won’t work as my ambition would have it to, I now think of that small, slightly overweight female ultra runner with very visibly arthritic feet I saw at that 24-hour run in Apeldoorn: Slow, plodding, hurting – but smiling and waving to whoever cheered her on – she did keep moving. A champion in her own right. Gabriele

Response:

You are not alone: Supposedly one only has foot problems because one always wore shoes, didn’t run enough on soft surfaces with bare feet, hammered ones feet flat with high impact heel strikes and is overweight. But if you train properly, reduce your shoes to a bare minimum,

Interesting stuff about getting your shoes to a bare minumum, because as of late I’ve been wondering how many of the injuries we read about here are CAUSED by shoes. So much goes into "motion control" and padding, I sometimes wonder how ancient man ever managed to run. I never heard of a caveman with prosthetics. "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

Hi, Brian, Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming.  What else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else you can do."

[snip] Bummer, is something going around? The spurs are not good and you’re right they can cause some additional damage if they continue to grow. IMHO, the bone shaving might help short term but the realignment is more important. While the physician is doing the evaluation, would this be a good time to help out at events or would that just be painful? I know, it’s not the same but with your background, you’d be a great person to have around and could really help a lot of people. FWIW, don’t give up yet (and I don’t think that you would). Bummer. Hang in, Layne The rec.running report archives may be found at http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

Response:

1) Drop your doctor.

The Dr is a dork, good advice. If he claims he is, he is a liar too. 2) Your quads are too tight. Have you ever massaged and stretched them properly?

Roger and JimBlow will massage you for free, but be prepared for a FULL BODY massage. 3) There’s obviously something wrong with your form. This is what happens when someone runs with incorrect form for years on end, banging their joints, etc, etc, etc.

More truth! Sometimes I see people flailing away like acrobats and I want to grab them and say "LOOK AT MY FORM, DO THIS!!!" and ironiclly these are the same ones who tell me I have a tight, effficent running form. They just don’t know they are using bad form, the picture of them in their mind wouldn’t match a video of them running, which is actually a good idea. 4) The shoes. It’s gotta be them shoes. Go to a real running store. They’ll fix you right up.

Certainly another strong candidate. "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

: Let me predict–and hopefully preempt–some of the responses you are likely : to get: : : 1) Drop your doctor. Obviously he’s not a runner and might even be : running-phobic. (That whole bit about him being a doc for a triathlon team? : I either didn’t bother to read it, or he’s an impostor.) Thanks for the "heads-up."  Yeah, he’s a runner.  And he hated having to give me the news. : 2) Your quads are too tight. Have you ever massaged and stretched them : properly? All the time.  30 minutes per day, now. : : 3) There’s obviously something wrong with your form. This is what happens : when someone runs with incorrect form for years on end, banging their : joints, etc, etc, etc. My form wasn’t the best, but it’s very good now. :    3a) Did your doctor analyze your gait and give you improvement : recommendations? :    3b) Your cadence obviously isn’t 180 steps/min. :    3c) Drop heel-striking. Rest up a bit and try ball-heel. :    3d) You aren’t breathing right. All of those taken care of.  I’m even at 180 steps now. : : 4) The shoes. It’s gotta be them shoes. Go to a real running store. They’ll : fix you right up. Had tons of shoes.  Could afford a car on the experimentation I’ve done. Got the right ones now. : : My observation? We’re *not* all created [physically] equal. It’s possible, : just maybe, that some of us may not be optimally built–or even close to : it–for running. Maybe exercise must come in another form for some of us. : Possibly–perish the heretical thought–many fall in this category. Lately, : I’m personally considering whether health–and being in pain isn’t : healthy–and not achievement in a specific sport should take pre-eminence : when it comes to my participation in the "fit life." I agree 100%.  Thanks again- hopefully we’ve headed off some of the off-the-cuff advice I would have gotten.  You right- quality of future life is more important than excelling in the next 5 K.  I’d like to use this body to it’s fullest till God’s ready to take it from me, you know? Peace, Brian : : — : Eduardo Suastegui : "Test everything. Hold on to the good." : (remove ‘701′ when replying via e-mail) :

: Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst : fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, : "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking : as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming. What : else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else : you : can do." : : Apparently my knees are so out of whack that spurs are growing now and : I’ve : already caused considerable damage.  God, I can’t believe this.  I LOVE : running.  And biking.  I’ve been doing triathlons for a couple of years : now. : But if I keep it up, the pain I feel all the time will just get worse : until : I can’t even walk. : : And the thing is- this guy used to be the doc for a triathlon team.  He : knows his stuff.  I pleaded, cajoled and almost cried, I think.  So he : relented a bit.  I run and bike for 8-10 more weeks, while doing tons of : stretching and try to strengthen my VMO muscle.  If it doesn’t re-align my : knees, I can get injections (3 every 2 weeks in each knee) which will help : lubricate the joints, but won’t last more than 6 months or so.  After : that, : arthroscopic surgery could shave some bone and MAY work, with a 3 month : recovery period, but no guarantees. : : I’m in hell.  I’ve built my life around 3 major things- running/biking : being : one of them.  I love challenging myself.  Going farther, faster, etc. : This : just totally bites.  But I’m doing the stretching.  Bet I’ll get the shots : too before I give up. : : Thanks for listening to my whine.  I appreciate you all. : : Peace, : Brian : : : :

Response:

Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming.  What else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else you can do."

Brian, Unlike Eduardo’s prediction, I won’t suggest you drop your doctor. On the other hand, I would suggest that you get a second opinion from a sports medicine specialist. While I wouldn’t bet the house on it, there may be a way to salvage something – perhaps just the cycling, but at least it’s something. I disagree with your physician for saying "That’s just it – there isn’t anything else you can do." There are things. Race walking does a lot to protect the knee and hip joints. Ok, it looks stupid as all getout. But who knows – maybe you’ll get good at it and become famous in Europe! There are other aerobic exercises available as well. A sports medicine specialist will know these and help you. Finally, I will agree with Eduardo on one point. Some of us can’t get back to running no matter what. As a diabetic, my two biggest fears are diabetic neuropathy of the feet and diabetic retinopathy. I’ve started training for a triathlon, and while it started out as a way to try to lose the weight that marathons alone won’t get rid of, I now realize that it’s preparing me for the day when I have to first give up running and then biking. Swimming, which I’m terrible at right now, is something that I can hang onto. With any luck, that will be in my 110s, but who knows? Rob

Response:

I’d like to use this body to it’s fullest till God’s ready to take it from mE

Next tues at 11:26am, a brain tumor will kill you without warning. "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

But I’m doing the stretching.  Bet I’ll get the shots too before I give up. Try a chiropractor, he/she can possibly align your knees NOW before any further damage is done, and give you proper exercises to keep them that way. ask Jim-blow for his chiros phone number.

http://www.chirobase.org/

Response:

Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming.  What else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else you can do." Apparently my knees are so out of whack that spurs are growing now and I’ve already caused considerable damage.  God, I can’t believe this.  I LOVE running.  And biking.  I’ve been doing triathlons for a couple of years now. But if I keep it up, the pain I feel all the time will just get worse until I can’t even walk. And the thing is- this guy used to be the doc for a triathlon team.  He knows his stuff.  I pleaded, cajoled and almost cried, I think.  So he relented a bit.  I run and bike for 8-10 more weeks, while doing tons of stretching and try to strengthen my VMO muscle.  If it doesn’t re-align my knees, I can get injections (3 every 2 weeks in each knee) which will help lubricate the joints, but won’t last more than 6 months or so.  After that, arthroscopic surgery could shave some bone and MAY work, with a 3 month recovery period, but no guarantees. I’m in hell.  I’ve built my life around 3 major things- running/biking being one of them.  I love challenging myself.  Going farther, faster, etc.  This just totally bites.  But I’m doing the stretching.  Bet I’ll get the shots too before I give up. Thanks for listening to my whine.  I appreciate you all. Peace, Brian

Response:

What a pity,  <huge, absolutely massive, split my face, grin  especially after you’d just gone to all that trouble to killfile me, Robot and young Jimbo. The curse of the trolls lies upon you.

Response:

I’m in hell.  I’ve built my life around 3 major things- running/biking being one of them.  I love challenging myself.  Going farther, faster, etc.  This just totally bites.  But I’m doing the stretching.  Bet I’ll get the shots too before I give up.

Strength and the best of luck to you. Please do keep us up-to-date. Gabriele

Response:

I run and bike for 8-10 more weeks, while doing tons of stretching and try to strengthen my VMO muscle.  If it doesn’t re-align my knees, I can get injections (3 every 2 weeks in each knee) which will help lubricate the joints, but won’t last more than 6 months or so.  After that, arthroscopic surgery could shave some bone and MAY work, with a 3 month recovery period, but no guarantees.

Augh, Brian, what a bummer. Hang on to this chance. I’ll keep my fingers crossed that it’ll work for you. Remember – "failure only starts once you give up trying to succeed." Best of luck, nina

Response:

But I’m doing the stretching.  Bet I’ll get the shots too before I give up.

Try a chiropractor, he/she can possibly align your knees NOW before any further damage is done, and give you proper exercises to keep them that way. ask Jim-blow for his chiros phone number. "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

The curse of the trolls lies upon you.

You’re not supposed to tell, it’s on page 35, paragraph 8 of our handbook. You’ve broken troll rules and must be punished. I’ll convene a tribuneral, and when we decided your punishment I’ll let you know. "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

Let me predict–and hopefully preempt–some of the responses you are likely to get: 1) Drop your doctor. Obviously he’s not a runner and might even be running-phobic. (That whole bit about him being a doc for a triathlon team? I either didn’t bother to read it, or he’s an impostor.) 2) Your quads are too tight. Have you ever massaged and stretched them properly? 3) There’s obviously something wrong with your form. This is what happens when someone runs with incorrect form for years on end, banging their joints, etc, etc, etc.    3a) Did your doctor analyze your gait and give you improvement recommendations?    3b) Your cadence obviously isn’t 180 steps/min.    3c) Drop heel-striking. Rest up a bit and try ball-heel.    3d) You aren’t breathing right. 4) The shoes. It’s gotta be them shoes. Go to a real running store. They’ll fix you right up. My observation? We’re *not* all created [physically] equal. It’s possible, just maybe, that some of us may not be optimally built–or even close to it–for running. Maybe exercise must come in another form for some of us. Possibly–perish the heretical thought–many fall in this category. Lately, I’m personally considering whether health–and being in pain isn’t healthy–and not achievement in a specific sport should take pre-eminence when it comes to my participation in the "fit life." — Eduardo Suastegui "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (remove ‘701′ when replying via e-mail)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey all!  I went to the Orthopaedic Doc Tuesday.  He confirmed my worst fears.  After X-Rays and listening to my knees creak and crack, he said, "Long-term, you’re gonna have to find something besides running and biking as your main source of aerobic exercise."  I said, "I hate swimming.  What else is there?"  His answer, "That’s just it- there isn’t anything else you can do." Apparently my knees are so out of whack that spurs are growing now and I’ve already caused considerable damage.  God, I can’t believe this.  I LOVE running.  And biking.  I’ve been doing triathlons for a couple of years now. But if I keep it up, the pain I feel all the time will just get worse until I can’t even walk. And the thing is- this guy used to be the doc for a triathlon team.  He knows his stuff.  I pleaded, cajoled and almost cried, I think.  So he relented a bit.  I run and bike for 8-10 more weeks, while doing tons of stretching and try to strengthen my VMO muscle.  If it doesn’t re-align my knees, I can get injections (3 every 2 weeks in each knee) which will help lubricate the joints, but won’t last more than 6 months or so.  After that, arthroscopic surgery could shave some bone and MAY work, with a 3 month recovery period, but no guarantees. I’m in hell.  I’ve built my life around 3 major things- running/biking being one of them.  I love challenging myself.  Going farther, faster, etc. This just totally bites.  But I’m doing the stretching.  Bet I’ll get the shots too before I give up. Thanks for listening to my whine.  I appreciate you all. Peace, Brian

Response:

Question:

Check out slowtwitch.com for some background on this whole story.

Response:

Check out slowtwitch.com for some background on this whole story.

DEFINITELY!!! Dan, what a great perspective! I really appreciate the opportunity to learn about what goes on in the background. Don’t keep us waiting for the next part! David / FEY2K IMCAL2000 16:53 (remove spaces) at att dot net

Response:

<< DEFINITELY!!! Dan, what a great perspective! I really appreciate the opportunity to learn about what goes on in the background. Don’t keep us waiting for the next part!   agreed! peggy

Response:

One thing that is more prominent in Oz than the US, most of our Top Pro’s will race any old event even if theres no prize money. This doesn’t seem to be so much the case in Nth America. Look at the results in the Triathlon Digest and you will see Emma Carney et al winning races that would be lucky to pay travel costs. I hope someone does built a US National Series up again but I know it will be a long haul. LW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think everyone fails to see one thing about our sport. There is very little money to be made. Everyone from the race directors to the pros know that you will not make much money putting races on or trying to win them.  Granted, there are a few people in the US and world that do this(Michellie Jones, Hunter Kemper, Simon Lessing, etc) but the majority of the people don’t.  They still have to make money from somewhere else. I think even if someone put another series on it would require more than just good turnouts.  It would requre the event director to be very careful in budgetting his money.  That is one of the main reasons why the USTS/NATS has sunk so many times already. Just my two cents. jOe Happened to log onto USTS’s site and it looks like they paid their $$$ to keep the site alive.  Anyone heard updated news on whether the pros got paid from the 2000 races? Chris — "No success can compensate for failure in the home" — David O. McKay

Response:

It would be good to see a US National Series, I did one of the USTS races at Hilton Head Island in ‘90-91, not sure when, and they were great,

I think it was the Bud Light Triathlon Series back then.  I did one in San Diego in ‘92 that was super.  Big pro field and great AG race.  The next year it was cut down to a sprint and the pro field was Scott Tinley and a female pro in an exhibition match.  The promoter, CAT Sports, went broke that season and reportedly owed money to pros and others. I wonder if there’s anyone willing to pick it up after this most recent disaster? Larry

Response:

I think everyone fails to see one thing about our sport. There is very little money to be made. Everyone from the race directors to the pros know that you will not make much money putting races on or trying to win them.  Granted, there are a few people in the US and world that do this(Michellie Jones, Hunter Kemper, Simon Lessing, etc) but the majority of the people don’t.  They still have to make money from somewhere else. I think even if someone put another series on it would require more than just good turnouts.  It would requre the event director to be very careful in budgetting his money.  That is one of the main reasons why the USTS/NATS has sunk so many times already. Just my two cents. jOe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Happened to log onto USTS’s site and it looks like they paid their $$$ to keep the site alive.  Anyone heard updated news on whether the pros got paid from the 2000 races? Chris — "No success can compensate for failure in the home" — David O. McKay

Response:

It would be good to see a US National Series, I did one of the USTS races at Hilton Head Island in ‘90-91, not sure when, and they were great, I had ‘hoped’ to have another go this season pre IMC but alas it might not be, but it would be good to see. LW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – fair enough.  no harm no foul.  I personally believe that if the USTS/NATS or another equivalent national series gets revitalized in the US they will have good attendance and support regardless of the complaints in RST or elsewhere, as long as they do a good job marketing the races. Something is going on as the website does have a "coming soon" page up, but who knows what it is. I’ll go to a couple of the races.  I enjoy racing.  It’s fun.  I started because it’s fun, you get to meet new people, go new places.  Plus, in defense of the old series, the races were organized well (from a participant’s standpoint) and had good competition. cheers, Marty However look at it as a whole. Had the USTS/NATS been in a position to be rescued the damages caused my misc postings harms not only the race directors but the sponsors and the whole triathlon community. LW

Response:

fair enough.  no harm no foul.  I personally believe that if the USTS/NATS or another equivalent national series gets revitalized in the US they will have good attendance and support regardless of the complaints in RST or elsewhere, as long as they do a good job marketing the races. Something is going on as the website does have a "coming soon" page up, but who knows what it is. I’ll go to a couple of the races.  I enjoy racing.  It’s fun.  I started because it’s fun, you get to meet new people, go new places.  Plus, in defense of the old series, the races were organized well (from a participant’s standpoint) and had good competition. cheers, Marty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However look at it as a whole. Had the USTS/NATS been in a position to be rescued the damages caused my misc postings harms not only the race directors but the sponsors and the whole triathlon community. LW

Response:

Having been made aware that you were chasing money I had apologised for the tone and wording of my post. However look at it as a whole. Had the USTS/NATS been in a position to be rescued the damages caused my misc postings harms not only the race directors but the sponsors and the whole triathlon community. LW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lloyd, I would think you’re an attentive enough reader to know I don’t throw rumors and innuendos onto the fire, but obviously not.  I guess maybe you guys down under don’t "read" every post.  Guess what?  I can do better.  The business is folded.  Ken McKenzie is unreachable.  I did not get paid $800.  Bugger off with my rumors.  I gave them every chance they had to explain what was going on.  Speaking for myself, I wrote them a couple letters and called a few phone numbers.  Guess what?  There was nobody home.  I am sure that if YOU were in charge of this series this never would have happened, but as you are limited to the southern hemisphere, why not let us work out our northern hemisphere problems. If someone in this newsgroup asks a question I have the answer to, I’m going to answer it.  Just like you do in your occasionally caustic manner. I also read your note discussing the business aspect of the situation. The truth is that everyone would be very happy to have a national series in the US.  We would be extremely happy.  But the truth is that there was obviously some mismanagement of this series and the advertised prize money did not get distributed.  According to other people whose word I have no reason to doubt, local RDs and other people associated with the series also did not get paid what they were due. When you say we are not alone in not getting paid, are you suggesting we should humbly accept it as our fate?  If I did that I would never have gotten anywhere in life.  When you get shafted, do you just take it?  I didn’t think so.  Am I going to sit around and watch and hope, with my fingers crossed and eyes aglow, that one day down the road, just maybe, just maybe oh wish upon a star Dorothy, that I’ll get some cash back?  Dude, your dreaming.  What does a business with money outstanding do to those that owe it money?  Call, call, call, file complaints, then file with a collection agency. Once again I would say that, regardless of the character references Mr. MacKenzie has, by not responding to all these circumstances in any way, shape, or form, he is hurting himself and us.  It’s not my fault.  I don’t want the guy to personally suffer, as I don’t wish that on anyone, but he didn’t even mail out a statement saying he was working things out.  IE, he is not working things out. The business is already destroyed, bud.  That happened last year.  If it gets resurrected, I will accept it as the Phoenix rising from the ashes.  I believe everyone else will as well. As for restarting the business, have at it!! Anyone! buy it, run it, make it your life, and do it well.  I just ride the bike.  I don’t make it, nor do I close down the streets on which to ride. Marty Gaal Why not throw more rumours, lies, innuendo’s etc…. onto the fire and make sure they don’t have a chance to do the right thing and bail themselves out. If you can do better then sure stand up and say so otherwise how about letting the matter sort itself out and keep your rumours where they belong. LW You guys are not alone in losing money, it happens every day in every sport and business and I hate it as much as anyone but look at it from the point of view of a business person. It is simply a debt just like the hundreds of other businesses that go broke every year this one hurts people but unlike a lot of business bankruptcies the athletes did not loose any of their own money apart from maybe travel costs etc. So they are crying fowl and trying to destroy a business, its name and the name of the backers/sponsors over what is essentially prize money won not actually money they had themselves invested, or entrusted on credit. That’s the reality of it and I do not condone in any manner or form race directors failing to meet contractual obligations for prize money but to look at the bigger picture there is now no USTS and people are making it even harder for someone to resurrect the USTS by constantly attacking it with rumours and other stories, even if they end up being true. So many people have stood up for the race director and there are as many good reports of the man and his business dealings as there are bad ones. What my point is that the USTS is an asset that can be sold or used to help recover the money lost. Just look at how many people keep asking about it and saying how not having the USTS is a big loss. Its a huge loss, not having a National series to compete in, a far bigger a loss to the sport than a handful of athletes loosing prize money. By posting constant defamatory remarks and rumours about the event, its parent company and its directors you are cutting your own throats. Sort of like burning down your own house to avoid paying mortgage payments to spite your bank, you still have the debt but now you don’t have the asset to sell to pay the debts!!! What would I do, find someone who can buy, or take over the USTS and hopefully rebuild it to a profit making venture, work with the previous management to get the real story on the losses suffered so the same mistakes should not be made again. If there is any signs of illegal or improper management then sure look at suing the management to recover costs. Ever wonder why a lot of bankruptcy trustees do not immediately make any statements of business dealings etc about company CEO’s and Directors after a company is placed into the hands of receivers/liquidators. Its because the small amount of information they are likely to get from the management could well help in explaining the companies losses and what and where they went wrong. With this knowledge they can make a more accurate call as to just how good an asset/business is left and if it is a viable entity that could pay its way clear of debt. LW Why not throw more rumours, lies, innuendo’s etc…. onto the fire and make sure they don’t have a chance to do the right thing and bail themselves out. If you can do better then sure stand up and say so otherwise how about letting the matter sort itself out and keep your rumours where they belong. Marty speaks the truth so there is no reason to flame him.  Part of the problem is that pros are so used to getting paid months after the races that it has become the norm.  "Letting the matter sort itself out" has been the problem.  Had the athletes complained and insisted on getting paid on time early in the series maybe this whole situation could have been avoided. The pros gave Ken MONTHS to try to settle his debts or even provide an explanation.  He has been virtually unreachable since October (invalid email address, unpaid website, Quest events dissolved) and when one pro was finally able to get him on the phone the connection got cut off.  When he re-dialed, surprise, nobody picked up. We waited patiently for explanations and everyone wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.  What is your suggestion? Believe me, we would be interested in any viable solution. -hug(also owed $$ from 2 NATS races)

Response:

Why not throw more rumours, lies, innuendo’s etc…. onto the fire and make sure they don’t have a chance to do the right thing and bail themselves out. If you can do better then sure stand up and say so otherwise how about letting the matter sort itself out and keep your rumours where they

belong. Marty speaks the truth so there is no reason to flame him.  Part of the problem is that pros are so used to getting paid months after the races that it has become the norm.  "Letting the matter sort itself out" has been the problem.  Had the athletes complained and insisted on getting paid on time early in the series maybe this whole situation could have been avoided. The pros gave Ken MONTHS to try to settle his debts or even provide an explanation.  He has been virtually unreachable since October (invalid email address, unpaid website, Quest events dissolved) and when one pro was finally able to get him on the phone the connection got cut off.  When he re-dialed, surprise, nobody picked up. We waited patiently for explanations and everyone wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.  What is your suggestion? Believe me, we would be interested in any viable solution. -hug(also owed $$ from 2 NATS races)

Response:

You guys are not alone in losing money, it happens every day in every sport and business and I hate it as much as anyone but look at it from the point of view of a business person. It is simply a debt just like the hundreds of other businesses that go broke every year this one hurts people but unlike a lot of business bankruptcies the athletes did not loose any of their own money apart from maybe travel costs etc. So they are crying fowl and trying to destroy a business, its name and the name of the backers/sponsors over what is essentially prize money won not actually money they had themselves invested, or entrusted on credit. That’s the reality of it and I do not condone in any manner or form race directors failing to meet contractual obligations for prize money but to look at the bigger picture there is now no USTS and people are making it even harder for someone to resurrect the USTS by constantly attacking it with rumours and other stories, even if they end up being true. So many people have stood up for the race director and there are as many good reports of the man and his business dealings as there are bad ones. What my point is that the USTS is an asset that can be sold or used to help recover the money lost. Just look at how many people keep asking about it and saying how not having the USTS is a big loss. Its a huge loss, not having a National series to compete in, a far bigger a loss to the sport than a handful of athletes loosing prize money. By posting constant defamatory remarks and rumours about the event, its parent company and its directors you are cutting your own throats. Sort of like burning down your own house to avoid paying mortgage payments to spite your bank, you still have the debt but now you don’t have the asset to sell to pay the debts!!! What would I do, find someone who can buy, or take over the USTS and hopefully rebuild it to a profit making venture, work with the previous management to get the real story on the losses suffered so the same mistakes should not be made again. If there is any signs of illegal or improper management then sure look at suing the management to recover costs. Ever wonder why a lot of bankruptcy trustees do not immediately make any statements of business dealings etc about company CEO’s and Directors after a company is placed into the hands of receivers/liquidators. Its because the small amount of information they are likely to get from the management could well help in explaining the companies losses and what and where they went wrong. With this knowledge they can make a more accurate call as to just how good an asset/business is left and if it is a viable entity that could pay its way clear of debt. LW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why not throw more rumours, lies, innuendo’s etc…. onto the fire and make sure they don’t have a chance to do the right thing and bail themselves out. If you can do better then sure stand up and say so otherwise how about letting the matter sort itself out and keep your rumours where they belong. Marty speaks the truth so there is no reason to flame him.  Part of the problem is that pros are so used to getting paid months after the races that it has become the norm.  "Letting the matter sort itself out" has been the problem.  Had the athletes complained and insisted on getting paid on time early in the series maybe this whole situation could have been avoided. The pros gave Ken MONTHS to try to settle his debts or even provide an explanation.  He has been virtually unreachable since October (invalid email address, unpaid website, Quest events dissolved) and when one pro was finally able to get him on the phone the connection got cut off.  When he re-dialed, surprise, nobody picked up. We waited patiently for explanations and everyone wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.  What is your suggestion? Believe me, we would be interested in any viable solution. -hug(also owed $$ from 2 NATS races)

Response:

Lloyd, I would think you’re an attentive enough reader to know I don’t throw rumors and innuendos onto the fire, but obviously not.  I guess maybe you guys down under don’t "read" every post.  Guess what?  I can do better.  The business is folded.  Ken McKenzie is unreachable.  I did not get paid $800.  Bugger off with my rumors.  I gave them every chance they had to explain what was going on.  Speaking for myself, I wrote them a couple letters and called a few phone numbers.  Guess what?  There was nobody home.  I am sure that if YOU were in charge of this series this never would have happened, but as you are limited to the southern hemisphere, why not let us work out our northern hemisphere problems. If someone in this newsgroup asks a question I have the answer to, I’m going to answer it.  Just like you do in your occasionally caustic manner. I also read your note discussing the business aspect of the situation. The truth is that everyone would be very happy to have a national series in the US.  We would be extremely happy.  But the truth is that there was obviously some mismanagement of this series and the advertised prize money did not get distributed.  According to other people whose word I have no reason to doubt, local RDs and other people associated with the series also did not get paid what they were due. When you say we are not alone in not getting paid, are you suggesting we should humbly accept it as our fate?  If I did that I would never have gotten anywhere in life.  When you get shafted, do you just take it?  I didn’t think so.  Am I going to sit around and watch and hope, with my fingers crossed and eyes aglow, that one day down the road, just maybe, just maybe oh wish upon a star Dorothy, that I’ll get some cash back?  Dude, your dreaming.  What does a business with money outstanding do to those that owe it money?  Call, call, call, file complaints, then file with a collection agency. Once again I would say that, regardless of the character references Mr. MacKenzie has, by not responding to all these circumstances in any way, shape, or form, he is hurting himself and us.  It’s not my fault.  I don’t want the guy to personally suffer, as I don’t wish that on anyone, but he didn’t even mail out a statement saying he was working things out.  IE, he is not working things out. The business is already destroyed, bud.  That happened last year.  If it gets resurrected, I will accept it as the Phoenix rising from the ashes.  I believe everyone else will as well. As for restarting the business, have at it!! Anyone! buy it, run it, make it your life, and do it well.  I just ride the bike.  I don’t make it, nor do I close down the streets on which to ride. Marty Gaal Why not throw more rumours, lies, innuendo’s etc…. onto the fire and make sure they don’t have a chance to do the right thing and bail themselves out. If you can do better then sure stand up and say so otherwise how about letting the matter sort itself out and keep your rumours where they belong. LW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys are not alone in losing money, it happens every day in every sport and business and I hate it as much as anyone but look at it from the point of view of a business person. It is simply a debt just like the hundreds of other businesses that go broke every year this one hurts people but unlike a lot of business bankruptcies the athletes did not loose any of their own money apart from maybe travel costs etc. So they are crying fowl and trying to destroy a business, its name and the name of the backers/sponsors over what is essentially prize money won not actually money they had themselves invested, or entrusted on credit. That’s the reality of it and I do not condone in any manner or form race directors failing to meet contractual obligations for prize money but to look at the bigger picture there is now no USTS and people are making it even harder for someone to resurrect the USTS by constantly attacking it with rumours and other stories, even if they end up being true. So many people have stood up for the race director and there are as many good reports of the man and his business dealings as there are bad ones. What my point is that the USTS is an asset that can be sold or used to help recover the money lost. Just look at how many people keep asking about it and saying how not having the USTS is a big loss. Its a huge loss, not having a National series to compete in, a far bigger a loss to the sport than a handful of athletes loosing prize money. By posting constant defamatory remarks and rumours about the event, its parent company and its directors you are cutting your own throats. Sort of like burning down your own house to avoid paying mortgage payments to spite your bank, you still have the debt but now you don’t have the asset to sell to pay the debts!!! What would I do, find someone who can buy, or take over the USTS and hopefully rebuild it to a profit making venture, work with the previous management to get the real story on the losses suffered so the same mistakes should not be made again. If there is any signs of illegal or improper management then sure look at suing the management to recover costs. Ever wonder why a lot of bankruptcy trustees do not immediately make any statements of business dealings etc about company CEO’s and Directors after a company is placed into the hands of receivers/liquidators. Its because the small amount of information they are likely to get from the management could well help in explaining the companies losses and what and where they went wrong. With this knowledge they can make a more accurate call as to just how good an asset/business is left and if it is a viable entity that could pay its way clear of debt. LW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why not throw more rumours, lies, innuendo’s etc…. onto the fire and make sure they don’t have a chance to do the right thing and bail themselves out. If you can do better then sure stand up and say so otherwise how about letting the matter sort itself out and keep your rumours where they belong. Marty speaks the truth so there is no reason to flame him.  Part of the problem is that pros are so used to getting paid months after the races that it has become the norm.  "Letting the matter sort itself out" has been the problem.  Had the athletes complained and insisted on getting paid on time early in the series maybe this whole situation could have been avoided. The pros gave Ken MONTHS to try to settle his debts or even provide an explanation.  He has been virtually unreachable since October (invalid email address, unpaid website, Quest events dissolved) and when one pro was finally able to get him on the phone the connection got cut off.  When he re-dialed, surprise, nobody picked up. We waited patiently for explanations and everyone wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.  What is your suggestion? Believe me, we would be interested in any viable solution. -hug(also owed $$ from 2 NATS races)

Response:

Why not throw more rumours, lies, innuendo’s etc…. onto the fire and make sure they don’t have a chance to do the right thing and bail themselves out. If you can do better then sure stand up and say so otherwise how about letting the matter sort itself out and keep your rumours where they belong. LW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – nobody got paid.  They are collectively gonna sue Mr. McKenzie, who’s already facing a few other lawsuits.  I don’t know who paid to keep the site alive, just another mystery to be unravelled. Happened to log onto USTS’s site and it looks like they paid their $$$ to keep the site alive.  Anyone heard updated news on whether the pros got paid from the 2000 races? Chris — "No success can compensate for failure in the home" — David O. McKay

Response:

YO! Lloyd…Since Marty is one of those unpaid pros, still waiting for his check from the USTS Series Championship race, I’d say his comments are as close as one can get to the real story. Since the USTS people have offered no comment at all, the maligned parties have a right to update us as to what is currently going on without being called liars and rumourmongers. If he refers to a lawsuit, I would assume that he is a part of it. cheers, Andrew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why not throw more rumours, lies, innuendo’s etc…. onto the fire and make sure they don’t have a chance to do the right thing and bail themselves out. If you can do better then sure stand up and say so otherwise how about letting the matter sort itself out and keep your rumours where they belong. LW nobody got paid.  They are collectively gonna sue Mr. McKenzie, who’s already facing a few other lawsuits.  I don’t know who paid to keep the site alive, just another mystery to be unravelled. Happened to log onto USTS’s site and it looks like they paid their $$$ to keep the site alive.  Anyone heard updated news on whether the pros got paid from the 2000 races? Chris — "No success can compensate for failure in the home" — David O. McKay

Response:

nobody got paid.  They are collectively gonna sue Mr. McKenzie, who’s already facing a few other lawsuits.  I don’t know who paid to keep the site alive, just another mystery to be unravelled. Happened to log onto USTS’s site and it looks like they paid their $$$ to keep the site alive.  Anyone heard updated news on whether the pros got paid from the 2000 races? Chris — "No success can compensate for failure in the home" — David O. McKay

Response:

Happened to log onto USTS’s site and it looks like they paid their $$$ to keep the site alive.  Anyone heard updated news on whether the pros got paid from the 2000 races? Chris — "No success can compensate for failure in the home" — David O. McKay

Response:

Question:

It can’t, but as I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, it doesn’t have to…that’s what a stopwatch and a measured distance are for. Cycling is somewhat different than the other two sports, in that environmental conditions/terrain have a much larger effect on pace (well, I suppose open water swim splits might be just as hard to interpret). For running and swimming, all you need to do to know your effective output is to time yourself over a given distance. In the big scheme of things, HR is really pretty irrelevant (e.g., most of the time we don’t even bother to measure it in our research studies, relying instead on actual power output on the ergometer, treadmill speed and grade, and/or VO2). And how exactly does the Power Tap measure your output while running, or swimming?

– Andrew Coggan Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I find that email address a bit intimidating <grin, but I’m going to wade (he-he) in here anyway… : HR : actually stays fairly stable (Carl Foster just wrote a paper on this : in MSSE—I think) at LT, but power or speed can change

significantly. Didn’t you just make my point here?    The heartrate is stable at LT but power/speed are not.  So if you want to exercise below, at, or above LT, how are you going to use watts to specify the workout?

I think Sam’s point was that HR at LT doesn’t change much *w/ training*, whereas performance capacity obviously does. Tracking your HR at LT (regardless of how you measure it) therefore doesn’t really tell you how effective your training is – for that, you need to know your speed, or even better for cycling (where wind, hills, etc., have a huge impact), your power. OTOH, HR can change a lot *during a workout*, even if the physiological demand is constant. So, if you train solely by HR, you may be training at an appropriate intensity initially, but then slow down too much w/o knowing it. However, if you are monitoring power (or pace, which is what runners, swimmers, track cyclists, etc., have been doing for decades), you’ll know when your output is falling, and can adjust accordingly (increase the effort, cut the workout short, and/or pick a lower goal power the next time). But it sounds to me like you are going to specify my workout based on a scheduled amount of improvement regardless of whether I am capable of it.

I’m guessing that Sam would advocate specifying your workout based on what you are capable of doing in terms of actual performance capacity (power). Screw the HR – it is a dependent, not an independent, variable here. Or are you saying that the idea of training the aerobic system vs. the anaerobic system is not valid?

Maybe a better way of putting it is that this division is overly simplistic…I think the vast majority of coaches would argue, and I would tend to agree, that training at all sorts of intensities is necessary for optimal performance. Power (or pace) lets you do just that, whereas it is impossible, for example, to use HR to monitor/quantify/guide short-term, high intensity intervals aimed at increasing muscular power (since HR doesn’t respond rapidly enough). So he is simply going to attempt to put out N watts the whole way regardless of the terrain/wind?  I don’t think that necessarily optimizes the result, but I could be wrong.  And if what you are saying is that you simply want to average N watts, I submit the only way that measurement is going to be usable by the rider is if the course is dead flat and windless.  Nobody can integrate the area under the curve in their head in real time to determine what power they should be putting out for a given segment…what they could do however is be encouraged not to exceed LT for too long. If you are confident that real time watts on a given day can be used to prevent spending too much time in the red, then yes, it will probably work during the race as a tachometer.

As somebody with real-world experience racing with a Power Tap, I’d argue that although you’re right about many of the limitations, it is a bit more useful than the picture you paint. After just a few races I have a pretty good feel for just how hard I can go for how long, and so can adjust my effort depending on the demands of the course. I’ve also found it very useful in preventing me from starting out too hard initially, something that I expect is less of a problem for a triathlete than during a TT (I know that the first run in duathlons fatigued me enough that I was at much less risk of starting the bike leg too hard). Finally, the power data is very motivational – the goal is to never let your concentration wander, and knowing your actual power at all times is very good for that. Maybe this says it best: I like racing w/ the Power Tap so much that I just sold my Hed disc.   But I’m still not getting how it is going to work by itself as a training tool. Unless you are saying that you need a lactate analyzer to go along with it, in which case the $800 price tag is a bit specious.

Throw away the HRM, speedometer, and even the lactate analyzer, and just follow power…on easy days, don’t let your power exceed a certain value, so that they remain truly easy days. On hard days, use it to motivate yourself, and to track improvement. Basically, you’d use it the same way a runner would use a stopwatch and a track – of course you have to adjust "on the fly" depending on the response/perception/condition of the athlete, but at least you’re basing your training on what really matters, i.e., performance, and not some indirect variable like HR. I just don’t think that for the average triathlete it will magically supercede perceived exertion, HRMs, RHR/LT/AT/VO2MAX related zone training, etc.

I don’t think that it will, either. Or maybe I should say that it shouldn’t – it *might*, just like people have gotten way too carried away (IMHO) with HR-based "zone" training programs. And, we’ll be waiting a while for versions that attach to Zoomers and Sauconys.

I know this was meant in jest, but if I took you seriously my response would be "Why? You’ve already got what you need there, and that’s a stopwatch." Andrew Coggan Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Oh Lord. I hope these things never become affordable. I can see my Wednesday evening Spinervals workouts with Coach Troy now – everyone has to match the top wattage generator in the room. Who can get the largest sweat puddle is the normal contest, or who has the highest cadence without bouncing right off his/her bike. While we’re talking wattage, why doesn’t Bally’s hook all of those damned stationary bikes, stairmasters, and elliptical trainers to the electrical system in the workout room to provide electricity for all of those fancy neon lights and TV screens they’ve got going? What a waste of energy. You should be required to provide the electricity for the radios and TV’s you watch while working out.  That would be great! Can’t watch the tube unless you pedal to power the tube. Schwing

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Was over at Joe Friel’s house this weekend where he showed me his : latest/greatest training device.  A rear wheel with technology : built into the hub that measured and recorded wattage output. His : computer measured average watt’s generated per hour and max. : wattage during the ride.  Joe’s opinion is that wattage training : will supercede what is now being done with heart rate monitors. : My only two comments here are: : 1) If this is important to you, start saving your pennies.  Current :    price for this rear wheel is ~$800. : 2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it :    sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past. Do you really mean supercede, or do you mean complement? I know Andrew likes his power tap and I can certainly see how it would be very informative, even useful, but how can you train the human body based solely on the amount of power it puts out and ignore its own internal metrics (whether you measure them via perceived exertion or actual heart rate)?   Is my coach going to (only) say "OK go ride today for 2 hours at 250 watts"? What if I can’t hold the power output today.  What if I can and in fact it’s too easy?  Where did the 250 watt figure come from?  I see the possible benefit in adjusting your training for terrain or wind (ie it would help you maintain a constant level of output when you hit a hill), but don’t exactly see how it will be used to _set_ those levels in the absence of other information.  Sure you can find an initial watt reading for an all out 40K TT, and call that the equivalent of Anaerobic Threshold for that individual, but then what do you do?   Specifiy training at, above and below that wattage without regard to how the body is reacting? Do people use Computrainers without HRMs or perceived exertion monitoring?  In what way? Of course, I have no CT, hardly ever wear my HRM, and so don’t really care, this is largely rhetorical.  I’m all about perceived exertion, and none too scientific about even that anymore.  It’s more like perceived pain, and more importantly perceived lack of pain.  Which could be why I suck.  An $800 device that would put me in the next age group 2 years early, that I could use . Wade

Response:

Who can get the largest sweat puddle is the normal contest,

Sorry to get perhaps too serious, but people who train indoors and judge the quality of their workout by the amount of sweat are in for a big shock if they get the PowerTap (or use a Computrainer indoors, as I do).  If the cool the room enough so no sweat puddles underneath you you can achieve far greater power efforts at any particular perceived exertion or heartrate than if the room temperature and lack of ventilation allow a lot of sweat to drip. That said, I suppose with all of you and "Coach Troy" in the same, too hot, room, relative amounts of sweat _might_ show who is working harder. JT Visit http://www.jt10000.com/ Cycling, Food and Stories

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Some of our Spinverals participants have been known to squirt water from their water bottle onto the floor when Coach Troy isn’t looking! Not me, of course <g And yes, that room is stinky and hot! If you walk into it during the middle of spinervals the impression is that of burning rubber and body odor! If you were ever wondering what the trainer did to your rear tire you wouldn’t wonder anymore after that smell. Yuch. If you start out in there, fortunately you don’t notice it. BTW, I’ll be making my film debut in the very near future with the release of the next Spinervals video! (if I don’t get cut out) Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That said, I suppose with all of you and "Coach Troy" in the same, too hot, room, relative amounts of sweat _might_ show who is working harder. JT Visit http://www.jt10000.com/ Cycling, Food and Stories

Response:

Some of our Spinverals participants have been known to squirt water from their water bottle onto the floor when Coach Troy isn’t looking! Not me, of course <g And yes, that room is stinky and hot! If you walk into it during the middle of spinervals the impression is that of burning rubber and body odor! If you were ever wondering what the trainer did to your rear tire you wouldn’t wonder anymore after that smell. Yuch. If you start out in there, fortunately you don’t notice it.

Sorry to get too serious <again but if you smell burning rubber you need to increase the contact between the tire and trainer-roller to prevent slippage.  That will fix the "problem", though it sounds like you guys enjoy it. JT Visit http://www.jt10000.com/ Cycling, Food and Stories

Response:

While I’d totally agree that for cycling power output measurement is better than using an HRM, unfortunately that’s only one part of the triathlon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was over at Joe Friel’s house this weekend where he showed me his latest/greatest training device.  A rear wheel with technology built into the hub that measured and recorded wattage output. His computer measured average watt’s generated per hour and max. wattage during the ride.  Joe’s opinion is that wattage training will supercede what is now being done with heart rate monitors. My only two comments here are: 1) If this is important to you, start saving your pennies.  Current    price for this rear wheel is ~$800. 2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it    sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past.  Rich Davis  Home Page: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~twm/TTH.html

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They were talking about it and showing it on the TV coverage of the HP race in Idaho. The coverage sucked ( awhole tour shown in an hour), but it was great it was on TV. And even cooler that it was on after coverage of Alcatraz. Great day of TV. Only thing that ruined a great triathlon of viewing was the TDF was not shown due to the Golf game ;-(. And golf is not really a sport after all. Ted

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I took the USAT coaching certification last month, and Joe Friel presented this unit to us, as well.  I haven’t yet picked one up to try, but it appears to be the standard of the future. Yesterday, in the women’s challenge cycling race, one of the women was using it, and the sportscaster attempted to explain its use .  The resulting measurement is referred to as ‘Power". It will be interesting to see if and when this hits the mainstream. Apparently, it is a reliable training tool for coaching. The Heart Rate is part of the 3 line display. ..  Joe’s opinion is that wattage training will supercede what is now being done with heart rate monitors. My only two comments here are: 1) If this is important to you, start saving your pennies.  Current    price for this rear wheel is ~$800. 2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it    sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past.

I’ve purchase 4 or 5 of these, but each time I do, the tech changes, and I always buy the newer model.

Response:

I know Andrew likes his power tap and I can certainly see how it would be very informative, even useful, but how can you train the human body based solely on the amount of power it puts out and ignore its own internal metrics (whether you measure them via perceived exertion or actual heart rate)?   Is my coach going to (only) say "OK go ride today for 2 hours at 250 watts"?   What if I can’t hold the power output today.  What if I can and in fact it’s too easy?  Where did the 250 watt figure come from?

        What if the coach says I want you to ride for 2 hours at 150 bpm and you cannot hold it?  The same answer as with the power, you are fried and need to back off.  Same thing if it is too easy, that does not mean that you shuck your training plan.  The 250W (or whatever) comes from testing such as in the lab or from field testin. Where does your HR come from?     I see the possible benefit in adjusting your training for terrain or wind (ie it would help you maintain a constant level of output when you hit a hill), but don’t exactly see how it will be used to _set_ those levels in the absence of other information.  Sure you can find an initial watt reading for an all out 40K TT, and call that the equivalent of Anaerobic Threshold for that individual, but then what do you do?   Specifiy training at, above and below that wattage without regard to how the body is reacting?

        So do you always follow your HR?   If you are struggling yet your HRM says you are right where you are supposed to be, what do you do?  Do you follow your HR without regarding how your body is doing?         I have done a lot of lab testing on cycling and triathletes and find the power output at lactate threshold (the anaerobic threshold is neither:) to be the best indicator of improvement.  HR actually stays fairly stable (Carl Foster just wrote a paper on this in MSSE—I think) at LT, but power or speed can change significantly. Do people use Computrainers without HRMs or perceived exertion monitoring?  In what way?

        Yes.         In short, power is what matters in cycling.  With the effects of cardiac drift and the differences reported by Noakes and others on HR in lab or field testing vs. races, HR seems to have a lot of variables.  Boulay reported that in order to maintain the target HR for a time trial, the work load had to be reduced 17%!  So if you follow your HR, you will have to progressively slow down in order to maintain that HR.   In a competitive situation, if you need to average 480W (which is probably close to what Lance average during his spectacular TT) to win a race, then you need to average that regardless of what the HR says.  Power can be used as a threshold as easily and sometimes better than HR, IMHO.           Power meters will be the next gadget once some things get work out like the ability to put the Power Tap on a disc wheel (in the works I hear) and the price comes down which it will.  They also need to make a download system. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Of course, I have no CT, hardly ever wear my HRM, and so don’t really care, this is largely rhetorical.  I’m all about perceived exertion, and none too scientific about even that anymore.  It’s more like perceived pain, and more importantly perceived lack of pain.  Which could be why I suck.  An $800 device that would put me in the next age group 2 years early, that I could use . Wade  

Response:

: I find that email address a bit intimidating <grin, but I’m going to : wade (he-he) in here anyway… Don’t be intimidated – it’s a misleading address.  I really live on hobbes.ucsd.edu (UCSD vs SDSU, now that’s another matter – luckily UCSD has no football team so the rivalry is relatively benign) – I studied Economics at UCSD, Computer Science at SDSU, my physiology credentials are nonexistent and my cycling and triathlon performance credentials are quite…amateurish. I read the lay literature and do better (relatively speaking) in the cycling leg of most of my races but that’s about it. (The sciences host used to be called ’saturn’ when my grad student account appeared there way back when and even though these days I work at UCSD, I still use the SDSU account for news since it has a more consistent feed for some reason.) So, blaze away….your reply was splendid and clarified things. Wade Blomgren ps. regarding the swim/run power measure and you saying we already have one (stopwatch), you are quite right.  In fact I find myself doing much of my run speedwork using pace rather than HR, and of course the swim is the same way. So, you see, I’m on board with this, my devil’s advocate mood swings notwithstanding.

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: call that the equivalent of Anaerobic Threshold for that : individual, but then what do you do?   Specifiy training at, : above and below that wattage without regard to how the body is : reacting? :       So do you always follow your HR?   If you are struggling yet : your HRM says you are right where you are supposed to be, what do you : do?  Do you follow your HR without regarding how your body is doing? Actually I hardly follow it at all these days, I’m just arguing for argument’s sake : and find the power output at lactate threshold (the anaerobic : threshold is neither:) to be the best indicator of improvement.  HR : actually stays fairly stable (Carl Foster just wrote a paper on this : in MSSE—I think) at LT, but power or speed can change significantly. Didn’t you just make my point here?    The heartrate is stable at LT but power/speed are not.  So if you want to exercise below, at, or above LT, how are you going to use watts to specify the workout?   Increased power at LT indicates improvement…  of course it does!   But it sounds to me like you are going to specify my workout based on a scheduled amount of improvement regardless of whether I am capable of it.  Or are you saying that the idea of training the aerobic system vs. the anaerobic system is not valid? : maintain that HR.   In a competitive situation, if you need to average : 480W (which is probably close to what Lance average during his : spectacular TT) to win a race, then you need to average that : regardless of what the HR says.   So he is simply going to attempt to put out N watts the whole way regardless of the terrain/wind?  I don’t think that necessarily optimizes the result, but I could be wrong.  And if what you are saying is that you simply want to average N watts, I submit the only way that measurement is going to be usable by the rider is if the course is dead flat and windless.  Nobody can integrate the area under the curve in their head in real time to determine what power they should be putting out for a given segment…what they could do however is be encouraged not to exceed LT for too long. If you are confident that real time watts on a given day can be used to prevent spending too much time in the red, then yes, it will probably work during the race as a tachometer.   But I’m still not getting how it is going to work by itself as a training tool.  Unless you are saying that you need a lactate analyzer to go along with it, in which case the $800 price tag is a bit specious. Don’t get me wrong – I want one!  I just don’t think that for the average triathlete it will magically supercede perceived exertion, HRMs, RHR/LT/AT/VO2MAX related zone training, etc.   And, we’ll be waiting a while for versions that attach to Zoomers and Sauconys. Wade

Response:

Was over at Joe Friel’s house this weekend where he showed me his latest/greatest training device.  A rear wheel with technology built into the hub that measured and recorded wattage output. His computer measured average watt’s generated per hour and max. wattage during the ride.  Joe’s opinion is that wattage training will supercede what is now being done with heart rate monitors. My only two comments here are: 1) If this is important to you, start saving your pennies.  Current    price for this rear wheel is ~$800. 2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it    sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past.  Rich Davis                          Home Page: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~twm/TTH.html

Response:

Rich, Rich, Rich – where have you been? Training by power isn’t really new at all, it has just become much more accessible in the last half-decade or so with the introduction of devices like the SRM crank and now the Tune Power Tap. Before that, you had to train indoors on an ergometer to know your power, something that not everyone is willing to do. Even though I now own a Tune system, I still think there are certain advantages (and disadvantages) to indoor, power-based training, and have and will continue to make it part of my personal program. Was over at Joe Friel’s house this weekend where he showed me his latest/greatest training device.  A rear wheel with technology built into the hub that measured and recorded wattage output.

(snip) — Andrew Coggan Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

: Was over at Joe Friel’s house this weekend where he showed me his : latest/greatest training device.  A rear wheel with technology : built into the hub that measured and recorded wattage output. His : computer measured average watt’s generated per hour and max. : wattage during the ride.  Joe’s opinion is that wattage training : will supercede what is now being done with heart rate monitors. : My only two comments here are: : 1) If this is important to you, start saving your pennies.  Current :    price for this rear wheel is ~$800. : 2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it :    sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past. Do you really mean supercede, or do you mean complement? I know Andrew likes his power tap and I can certainly see how it would be very informative, even useful, but how can you train the human body based solely on the amount of power it puts out and ignore its own internal metrics (whether you measure them via perceived exertion or actual heart rate)?   Is my coach going to (only) say "OK go ride today for 2 hours at 250 watts"?   What if I can’t hold the power output today.  What if I can and in fact it’s too easy?  Where did the 250 watt figure come from?  I see the possible benefit in adjusting your training for terrain or wind (ie it would help you maintain a constant level of output when you hit a hill), but don’t exactly see how it will be used to _set_ those levels in the absence of other information.  Sure you can find an initial watt reading for an all out 40K TT, and call that the equivalent of Anaerobic Threshold for that individual, but then what do you do?   Specifiy training at, above and below that wattage without regard to how the body is reacting? Do people use Computrainers without HRMs or perceived exertion monitoring?  In what way? Of course, I have no CT, hardly ever wear my HRM, and so don’t really care, this is largely rhetorical.  I’m all about perceived exertion, and none too scientific about even that anymore.  It’s more like perceived pain, and more importantly perceived lack of pain.  Which could be why I suck.  An $800 device that would put me in the next age group 2 years early, that I could use . Wade  

Response:

2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it   sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past.

And how exactly does the Power Tap measure your output while running, or swimming? I’d love to have a PowerTap, but then I’d love to have a Cheetah with powercranks, the powertap system, spinergy wheels, and every other whiz-bang-techno-gizmick that comes down the pipe, but I’m too financially challenged for all that . . . in the meantime, I’ll muddle thru with my Polar — TriathRon                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_ `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / (ASCII art blatantly plagiarized from TriBaby’s sig . . . )

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Question:

Hi Folks! We’re still 1 month away from the Muskoka Triathlon, in sunny Haliburton, Ontario. However, since it’s the big qualifying* race around here, I think most know if they’ll be going. So… is anyone going? Is anyone interested in some sort of encounter? Any ideas on what would be appropriate? Yes, it’s a very intense race for most but I’ll consider it a complete bust if I don’t get to meet some more of my "electronic friends", have a beer, and enjoy goofing off some. Regards, Kevin Mitchell Toronto, Canada [remove the SPAMSUCKS from my address to respond by e-mail... ] OTN: Going great! 9 days to the start of race season and I’m ready to go! Well, except that I’ve only swum 1500m since I broke my collarbone. 1 week to address that… * 15 IMH slots,15 IM USA slots,20 IMC slots ( 7 slots in my AG alone).

Response:

Hi Folks! We’re still 1 month away from the Muskoka Triathlon, in sunny Haliburton, Ontario. However, since it’s the big qualifying* race around here, I think most know if they’ll be going. So… is anyone going? Is anyone interested in some sort of encounter? Any ideas on what would be appropriate? Yes, it’s a very intense race for most but I’ll consider it a complete bust if I don’t get to meet some more of my "electronic friends", have a beer, and enjoy goofing off some.

I’ll be there, Kevin!   — Tri Your Hardest.   /O     ___o     o      ~~~~   _ <,_    <|        (*)/ (*)    /           Darrin Bartlett (313)317-7551 12 weeks to the inaugural Ironman USA

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Hi Kevin, Francois and I (Titanik are going and also hope to meet some of you. I look forward to this first race of the season.  It will also be a good test to my IMC prep! Happy training Titanik – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Folks! We’re still 1 month away from the Muskoka Triathlon, in sunny Haliburton, Ontario. However, since it’s the big qualifying* race around here, I think most know if they’ll be going. So… is anyone going? Is anyone interested in some sort of encounter? Any ideas on what would be appropriate? Yes, it’s a very intense race for most but I’ll consider it a complete bust if I don’t get to meet some more of my "electronic friends", have a beer, and enjoy goofing off some. Regards, Kevin Mitchell Toronto, Canada [remove the SPAMSUCKS from my address to respond by e-mail... ] OTN: Going great! 9 days to the start of race season and I’m ready to go! Well, except that I’ve only swum 1500m since I broke my collarbone. 1 week to address that… * 15 IMH slots,15 IM USA slots,20 IMC slots ( 7 slots in my AG alone).

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Question:

how many of us clicked on this thinking it was announcing a So.Cal IM?:-( toddzi San Diego

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Ok make it three. Richard

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Me too… What’s the latest rumor on that? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – how many of us clicked on this thinking it was announcing a So.Cal IM?:-( toddzi San Diego

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how many of us clicked on this thinking it was announcing a So.Cal IM?:-(

at least two…   David "fingers crossed" Wuth / FEY2K (remove spaces) at att dot net

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Ironman Age Group Finishers Receive Recognition For Athletic Performance

Does this mean those who qualify for Hawaii via say a qualification for IME and then at IME for Hawaii, will rank higher than those who got a lottery place for Hawaii? After all qualifying for a slot in a qualifier and then qualifying at one of the hardest races to qualify at (According to Triathlete Mag) is quite an achievement. Just curious Philip Squire MCP IM http://w1.116.telia.com/~u11602093/home.html

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For Immediate Release: May 17, 1999 WTC introduces New Age-Group Rankings Ironman Age Group Finishers Receive Recognition For Athletic Performance

Oh great. One more way to see how slow I am.  <g Mike "Actually, it’s a nice idea" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03

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Me too… What’s the latest rumor on that? how many of us clicked on this thinking it was announcing a So.Cal IM?:-( toddzi San Diego

There is going to be an Ironman at Camp Pendleton, in Oceanside, in May of 2000.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

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The system is based on comparisons between finish times and specific age-group course records for each Ironman event, calculated separately for men and women. For a given age group, the actual age-group course record is divided by each finisher

Question:

I know a triathlon is running, biking & swimming, and that a biathlon is cross-country skiing & sharpshooting. But aren’t there modified triathlons, where it’s just running & biking, that are also called biathlons? Dave Navajo

Response:

I know a triathlon is running, biking & swimming, and that a biathlon is cross-country skiing & sharpshooting. But aren’t there modified triathlons, where it’s just running & biking, that are also called biathlons?

They are actually called  Duathlons.  In each case,  bi and Dual both mean two.                   |  |                _|  |               (____)                     O O    SKATE ON, BABY!                                 — Marilyn —

Response:

Nicepace writes:

: There is no English use of the prefix du- to mean two, and therefore : it is a linguistically sloppy term. Right-o. I guess Cartesian dualism is even more dead than I thought. Madeleine "in a duality of minds about this" Page

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They are actually called  Duathlons.  In each case,  bi and Dual both mean

two. << As a runner and cyclist, I use the term "biathlon" to describe run/bike events.  I believe it is a much clearer term than "duathlon."  Anyone who knows what a triathlon is can figure out what a biathlon is, but what the heck is a duathlon?  There is no English use of the prefix du- to mean two, and therefore it is a linguistically sloppy term.   In addition, whoever invented the term "duathlon" to describe a run/bike event was "solving" a problem that did not exist.  When the commonly used term to describe a run/bike event was "biathlon," the context always made it clear that a run/bike event was under discussion, and not the winter sport of ski/shoot. Just as a triathlon can be swim/bike/run or canoe/bike/run depending on context, there can be more than one kind of biathlon.  I think we ought to ditch the term "duathlon" altogether, and I applaud those race directors who continue to call their run/bike events biathlons. Joanne

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And on a more practical note: Biathlon is an Olympic sport, and if duathlon ever wants to be in the Olympics, it will have to change its name anyway. That’s why the name was changed in the first place. But, linguistically, none of the terms mentioned here mean much. Their etymologies are all a hodge-podge of different traditions. In this case, I think we can make it up as we go along without doing the other terms much disservice. Nicepace writes: : There is no English use of the prefix du- to mean two, and therefore : it is a linguistically sloppy term. Right-o. I guess Cartesian dualism is even more dead than I thought. Madeleine "in a duality of minds about this" Page

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

Response:

I know a triathlon is running, biking & swimming, and that a biathlon is cross-country skiing & sharpshooting. But aren’t there modified triathlons, where it’s just running & biking, that are also called biathlons? Dave Navajo

No, they are called duathlons.

Response:

 I think we ought to ditch the term "duathlon" altogether, and I applaud those race directors who continue to call their run/bike events biathlons. Joanne

Amen.  I don’t think race directors should be too concerned about angering the 23 people in North America that actually participate in ski/shoot biathlons… <g Mike "TriBop" Tennent http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/ WebRunner Running My Model Railroad ‘98 Ironman Canada IronVirgins Site

Response:

I think we ought to ditch the term "duathlon" altogether, and I applaud those race directors who continue to call their run/bike events biathlons. Joanne Amen.  I don’t think race directors should be too concerned about angering the 23 people in North America that actually participate in ski/shoot biathlons…

        I disagree:  Remember those biathletes have guns and can shoot very well <g

Response:

running & biking {…} called biathlons? No, they are called duathlons.

Looking on AltaVista, one sees references to both terms in describing the run/ bike event.  I don’t know which is considered the proper term.  There are also run/swim biathlons, e.g., the "Dream of Peace Biathlon" ( a name that would seem to indicate low emphasis on rifle marksmanship). In case this isn’t confusing enough, there has also emerged a sport called "summer biathlon":  run-and-shoot instead of ski-and-shoot. Cheers, –Joe, whose knees would hold up adequately for the shooting part

Response:

"Biathlon" is now obsolete when applied to bike-run events. The official term is "duathlon". Some races have been around a while, though, and still use the older term. I know a triathlon is running, biking & swimming, and that a biathlon is cross-country skiing & sharpshooting. But aren’t there modified triathlons, where it’s just running & biking, that are also called biathlons? Dave Navajo

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

Response:

Question:

Champion Nutrition used to have a web page, but the url is now defunct.  A search on the net yields nothing.  I found a place on the net called Advantage Nutrition that sells the stuff for $28.00/4.5lbs.  The url for them is http://www.advnut.com/.  Brad Kearns had a little setup going where you could order all those things pretty cheap.  Don’t know if it lasted.  I used to get all kinds of ads for it. I don’t know of anywhere you’ll get if for much less.  MetroSport will no doubt order it for you if they don’t have it in stock.  Unfortunately they will also probably charge you a bundle for it.  This is probably where they wanted $37!!?? I hope this helps… Craig (Now in Jo’burg South Africa where 4.5 lbs (2kilos) of Cytomax go for 370 rand.  That’s over $70!!!!) Sullivan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Header says it all.  Time to restock the supplies!  I know I’ve seen the 4.5 pound can for $27.99 somewhere, I just can’t remember where.  Local bike and running shops have outrageous prices ($37 at one!).  Where should I look on the Web (or, locally, on the SF Peninsula)? Thanks! Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie

Response:

I get my Champion stuff from Nutrition Express:  cyto’ for $27.99, metabolol for $22.72.  800.338.7979. cheers, vaughn RE: the "team champion" brad kearns thing below, it’s now a goner. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Champion Nutrition used to have a web page, but the url is now defunct.  A search on the net yields nothing.  I found a place on the net called Advantage Nutrition that sells the stuff for $28.00/4.5lbs.  The url for them is http://www.advnut.com/.  Brad Kearns had a little setup going where you could order all those things pretty cheap.  Don’t know if it lasted.  I used to get all kinds of ads for it. I don’t know of anywhere you’ll get if for much less.  MetroSport will no doubt order it for you if they don’t have it in stock.  Unfortunately they will also probably charge you a bundle for it.  This is probably where they wanted $37!!?? I hope this helps… Craig (Now in Jo’burg South Africa where 4.5 lbs (2kilos) of Cytomax go for 370 rand.  That’s over $70!!!!) Sullivan Header says it all.  Time to restock the supplies!  I know I’ve seen the 4.5 pound can for $27.99 somewhere, I just can’t remember where.  Local bike and running shops have outrageous prices ($37 at one!).  Where should I look on the Web (or, locally, on the SF Peninsula)? Thanks! Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie

– Vaughn Cooper Center for Microbial Ecology Michigan State University Vineman ‘96 11:27:12; IMC ‘97 10:10:44

Response:

Nutrition Express’s phone # 800-338-7979.  Great prices on Champion Nutrition Products. Cytomax 4.5 lbs. $27.99 Metabolol 2.3 lbs. $22.72 Gary McMurtrey Inland Inferno Triathlon Club http://members.aol.com/infernotri/home.htm

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Header says it all.  Time to restock the supplies!  I know I’ve seen the 4.5 pound can for $27.99 somewhere, I just can’t remember where. Local bike and running shops have outrageous prices ($37 at one!).  Where should I look on the Web (or, locally, on the SF Peninsula)? Thanks! Tri-Baby Dexter Sports Science is the lowest I’ve found. If you find lower, they’ll match, and they have an additional quantity 4 discount.  $27.95 for 4.5 ‘er.   http://www.dsportscience.com/ Chaz

They’re nice people too. JT

Response:

 Where should I look on the Web (or, locally, on the SF Peninsula)? Thanks! Tri-Baby

I know that Colorado Cyclist was having a sale for $30.99, but that’s the cheapest I’ve seen in the past month.  Luckily, my LBS got enough courage to reduce his giant cans to $31.99!!  That’s a first for him selling nutritional stuff below ‘his cost’! — Tri Your Hardest!   /O     ___o      o    ~~~~   _ <,_    <|        (*)/ (*)      /           Darrin Bartlett

Response:

Header says it all.  Time to restock the supplies!  I know I’ve seen the 4.5 pound can for $27.99 somewhere, I just can’t remember where.  Local bike and running shops have outrageous prices ($37 at one!).  Where should I look on the Web (or, locally, on the SF Peninsula)? Thanks! Tri-Baby

 Dexter Sports Science is the lowest I’ve found. If you find lower, they’ll match, and they have an additional quantity 4 discount.  $27.95 for 4.5 ‘er.    http://www.dsportscience.com/ Chaz

Response:

Header says it all.  Time to restock the supplies!  I know I’ve seen the 4.5 pound can for $27.99 somewhere, I just can’t remember where.  Local bike and running shops have outrageous prices ($37 at one!).  Where should I look on the Web (or, locally, on the SF Peninsula)? Thanks! Tri-Baby

Colorado Cyclist 800/688-8600 and Excel Sports 800/627-6664 both sell the big can for 29.95. I haven’t been able to find it for less. Cheers, Andrew — Andrew Peabody Miami

Response:

Header says it all.  Time to restock the supplies!  I know I’ve seen the 4.5 pound can for $27.99 somewhere, I just can’t remember where.  Local bike and running shops have outrageous prices ($37 at one!).  Where should I look on the Web (or, locally, on the SF Peninsula)? Thanks! Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

Tricia, I can’t remember the exact price, but I loaded up at Slough’s on Race Street in San Jose last year. It was well below any price I had found locally. Hopefully, it still is, since I’m about out too! Bruce "Slugman" Maxwell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Header says it all.  Time to restock the supplies!  I know I’ve seen the 4.5 pound can for $27.99 somewhere, I just can’t remember where.  Local bike and running shops have outrageous prices ($37 at one!).  Where should I look on the Web (or, locally, on the SF Peninsula)? Thanks! Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie

Response:

I get a catalog from a company called Nutrition Express.  They have great prices and a flat $4.00 shipping charge. Gary McMurtrey Inland Inferno Triathlon Club http://members.aol.com/infernotri/home.htm

Response:

Try webvitamins at www.webvitamins.com. You can call them or order directly on the web-Great people!! They carry just about everthing with the best prices I could find.  Cytomax-26.89,  Metabol-21.89. Tom

Response:

Question:

I’m relocating to Indy some time in the next 6 months.  I was curious to find out info about good places to train, tri-clubs, and maybe even find some potential people to room with.  E-mail me if your from the area.                                       Thanks!

Response:

Tuxedo Brothers sponsors several running & triathlon events in Indy. Their homepage has a complete rundown of the events. www.iquest.net/tuxbro/ I did the Cameron Springs triathlon this past July.  A good race at Eagle Creek Park on the west side, which is also a good place to train. Unfortunately, I have yet to find any clubs in the area.  Any other An Indy Resident, Scott

Response:

Question:

Training intensity and HRMs I bought a heart rate monitor (HRM) some time ago to improve my training. and Henderson’s "Fitness Running" and a very comprehensive Dutch one "Training, Lactate and Heart Rates" by Peter G.J.M. Janssen. All contain valuable information but unfortunately they are also all ambiguous on the kind of advise I’m after: i.e. at what intensity level (in terms of beats per minute, bpm) should I train to obtain the results I’m looking for. Admittedly Edwards’ book indicates clearly by way of tables what intensity levels (given as percentages of maximum heart rate, MHR) are optimal for different age groups to achieve different objectives (heart training, fat burning, improved aerobic capacity etc.). Later in the book, however, as well as in Janssen’s, other methods for calculating training intensity are suggested based on Karvonen’s formula, the Conconi test to determine the lactate treshold and others. In short there seems to exist a lot of parallell and differing theories on how age, resting heart rate, maxpuls and so on should be related to each other. Having tried to use various calculation methods I find differences that (based on my own experience) may be big enough to cause injuries. I’m interested to learn whether there has been any recent research in this field establishing more consensus regarding relations between the different parametres and values. I would also be grateful to anyone able to give advise out of his or her own experience. Svein

Response:

[...] I’m interested to learn whether there has been any recent research in this field establishing more consensus regarding relations between the different parametres and values. I would also be grateful to anyone able to give advise out of his or her own experience.

At my university the instructors say that the aerobic(?) threshold is at approximately 70% of the max HR; the anaerobic threshold is at 85% of the max HR. One should train with a HR between these limits. Two totally different types of training: long and slow (70%) vs high intensity (85%) and short. It all depends on what you try to accomplish I guess. Btw, I have also seen these figures in the Dutch edition of Runner’s World. Just my $0.02, Maurice — University of Nijmegen, Computing Science Institute Toernooiveld 1, 6525 ED Nijmegen, The Netherlands Phone +31 24 3652710, Fax +31 24 3553450 http://www.cs.kun.nl/~mauricek

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Training intensity and HRMs I bought a heart rate monitor (HRM) some time ago to improve my training. and Henderson’s "Fitness Running" and a very comprehensive Dutch one "Training, Lactate and Heart Rates" by Peter G.J.M. Janssen. All contain valuable information but unfortunately they are also all ambiguous on the kind of advise I’m after: i.e. at what intensity level (in terms of beats per minute, bpm) should I train to obtain the results I’m looking for. Admittedly Edwards’ book indicates clearly by way of tables what intensity levels (given as percentages of maximum heart rate, MHR) are optimal for different age groups to achieve different objectives (heart training, fat burning, improved aerobic capacity etc.). Later in the book, however, as well as in Janssen’s, other methods for calculating training intensity are suggested based on Karvonen’s formula, the Conconi test to determine the lactate treshold and others. In short there seems to exist a lot of parallell and differing theories on how age, resting heart rate, maxpuls and so on should be related to each other. Having tried to use various calculation methods I find differences that (based on my own experience) may be big enough to cause injuries. I’m interested to learn whether there has been any recent research in this field establishing more consensus regarding relations between the different parametres and values. I would also be grateful to anyone able to give advise out of his or her own experience. Svein

Svein, I’d suggest that you read Coach Roy Benon’s HRM training book.  He has a background (MS) in exercise physiology, but he is a coach. I have been through the same gammett of books as you have and although I felt very knowledgeable when I finished reading all of them I did not have a clue about how to effectively train with my HRM.  Roy’s book spells it out in black and white … do this I believe it is available through Cedar Winds Publishing and be sure to note it is different (a bit more indepth) than the booklet he wrote to accompany a Polar HRM purchase.   Now if I could only find such an easy to follow recipe for triathlon training! Lucy

Response:

Training intensity and HRMs I bought a heart rate monitor (HRM) some time ago to improve my training. Brown and Henderson’s "Fitness Running" and a very comprehensive Dutch one "Training, Lactate and Heart Rates" by Peter G.J.M. Janssen. All contain valuable information but unfortunately they are also all ambiguous on the kind of advise I’m after: i.e. at what intensity level (in terms of beats per minute, bpm) should I train to obtain the results I’m looking for.

(snipped some stuff) In short there seems to exist a lot of parallell and differing theories on how age, resting heart rate, maxpuls and so on should be related to each other. Having tried to use various calculation methods I find differences that (based on my own experience) may be big enough to cause injuries. I’m interested to learn whether there has been any recent research in this field establishing more consensus regarding relations between the different parametres and values. (snip) Svein

There will never be consensus on the best way to train. The body and sport are too complex for that (though there might be some consensus on really BAD ways to train).  But that’s part of the beauty of sport. You’ve picked some good reading and what I suggest is trying to apply the various ideas presented to your own running.  See what seems to make sense and work for you.   John Tomlinson

Response:

: Training intensity and HRMs : I bought a heart rate monitor (HRM) some time ago to improve my training. : and Henderson’s "Fitness Running" and a very comprehensive Dutch one : "Training, Lactate and Heart Rates" by Peter G.J.M. Janssen. All contain : valuable information but unfortunately they are also all ambiguous on the : kind of advise I’m after: i.e. at what intensity level (in terms of beats : per minute, bpm) should I train to obtain the results I’m looking for. : Admittedly Edwards’ book indicates clearly by way of tables what : intensity levels (given as percentages of maximum heart rate, MHR) are -snip- Check out "SERIOUS training for Serious Athletes".  It describes an approach that begins with your goals in mind and outlines a training year.  If you are just trying to get in reasonable shape, it is a little bit of an overkill, but you can take out of it what you want, so… -J

Response:

Question:

Katherine Williams here: One of my projects since I left Triathlete magazine last year has been planning something altogether new for the sport, The 1996 Triathlon Sourcebook. To be published in March 1996, it will be formal, detailed listings for virtually all segments of the sport. I realized a need for it when I realized just how global the sport has become, and will continue to be as we head for Sydney 2000. It will include: