Question:

Indeed, it is nothing more than an intresting coincidence. As for elite female triathletes (2hours) being unable to run a 2:20 800m, that’s absolutley not true, many of them run 70 seconds for 400m in training, leaving a 2:20 800m well within reach. I know what Yasso 800’s are, and am not confused. Sure, there are the cyclist/swimmers who manage 2:10 with a 50 minute 10k… but this isn’t a rule, rather just a little observation to be filed in the "nifty but mostly useless" category of athletics. Alex

Response:

I’m afraid you have mistaken "correlation" for simple, random coincidence. Examples:  Most of the elite women have done an Olympic distance tri around two hours – but I doubt there are more than a few that could even break 2:20 in the 800 run.  Last year, my wife (at age 47) hit 2:11 in a legitimate Olympic distance event – but even though she’s a very good runner, I seriously doubt she could now break 2:40 in the 800.  Susan Bradley-Cox regularly does the Olympic distance triathlon in the low 2:40’s (at age 64) . . . I don’t know what she’s done at 800 meters on the track, but I bet it isn’t less than 3:20. Lew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that there is a close correlation between the world records for 800m and Olympic distance tris… The time in minutes/seconds of 800m corresponding to time in hours/minutes of Olympic Distance tri.  Mine also corresponds, with a 2:15 best Olympic (hilly course) and a 2:08 best 800m (track), I was wondering if any others of you have a similar correlation. Does it hold only for faster people?  Does this apply up the time scale?  I suspect that there will be a decrease in tri times relative to run times as time increases due to exponential drag on bike/swim. Alex

Response:

You may be confusing your observation with "Yasso’s 800’s" (see: runnersworld.com) the theory being that a sufficiently trained marathoner will see a correlation between whatever pace he/she can hold for 12×800 to their marathon time.  (ex. 12 x 800 at 3:10 would equate to a 3hr 10min marathon.)  There seems to be SOME validity although I don’t believe any in depth study has been done. In triathlon the reality is that one’s 800 time in one discipline has little bearing on their skill/ability in another.  Just look at my swim – bike times if you still have doubts!  ;-) Bryant — Performance Multisport Portland, OR. www.performancemultisport.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that there is a close correlation between the world records for 800m and Olympic distance tris… The time in minutes/seconds of 800m corresponding to time in hours/minutes of Olympic Distance tri.  Mine also corresponds, with a 2:15 best Olympic (hilly course) and a 2:08 best 800m (track), I was wondering if any others of you have a similar correlation. Does it hold only for faster people?  Does this apply up the time scale? I suspect that there will be a decrease in tri times relative to run times as time increases due to exponential drag on bike/swim. Alex

Response:

I noticed that there is a close correlation between the world records for 800m and Olympic distance tris… The time in minutes/seconds of 800m corresponding to time in hours/minutes of Olympic Distance tri.  Mine also corresponds, with a 2:15 best Olympic (hilly course) and a 2:08 best 800m (track), I was wondering if any others of you have a similar correlation. Does it hold only for faster people?  Does this apply up the time scale?  I suspect that there will be a decrease in tri times relative to run times as time increases due to exponential drag on bike/swim. Alex

Response:

Question:

for what it’s worth, Thomas Hellreigel managed a pretty quick bike split on a pair of Cosmic Carbones there this summer.  of course, that might have something to do with his legs, but i’m sure he’s not stupid about picking his gear either. good luck! mike

Response:

for what it’s worth, Thomas Hellreigel managed a pretty quick bike split on a pair of Cosmic Carbones there this summer.  of course, that might have something to do with his legs, but i’m sure he’s not stupid about picking his gear either.

Didn’t Cameron Brown use a rear disk?  He was 3rd.  That doesn’t suck. I’m sure he’s not stupid about his gear either. —  Gus Coll                     o    "Life is short.                   __o       </_    Learn fast!"     /o__       _ <_     __/      

Response:

He won’t be stupid but he’s also paid to use them! Any way over the IM distance the course must be VERY hilly to favor weight over aero. By the way are the Elite much lighter than say Spinergy or HED? SERMA

Response:

He won’t be stupid but he’s also paid to use them! Any way over the IM distance the course must be VERY hilly to favor weight over aero. By the way are the Elite much lighter than say Spinergy or HED? SERMA

According to Damon Rinard, they are about the same, within about 50 grams. Rick "And it must be all uphill, and steep, to favor weight over aero" Denney

Response:

For a hilly race like IM Lake Placid how much aero advantage is there between an inexpensive, lightweight  race wheelset like the Mavic Cosmic Elite advertised in Performance over a deeper rim wheel ( but much more expensive ) like a hed jet? — Chuck Heimberg IMUSA 2000

Response:

I need advice.  I am a 14 year old junior triathlete looking to buy my first race wheel(s).  Can I get some help from you experienced racers on what would be the best investment for my limited dollar? Since I can probably only afford used what should I look for in regards to wear?  If I can only afford one is front or rear better? I don’t really know the differnce between tubulars and clinchers. Any help is very much appreciated. Thanks, Christian

Response:

Christian – You will find lots of stuff on race wheels. Good luck, gordo

Response:

Question:

The Mere Mortals training group has been meeting to train for a sprint distance race (The October 7 SRI Tri) since mid-July. This weekend, the 80-150 triathletes that show up for training will meet for the last time before their first real Tri. I’m going to spend some time reviewing the things our guest speakers has shown them and sharing tips. So I’m looking for your best RST tips for a new triathlete about to run their first race. Thanks! Tom

OK, two come to mind: 1) Know and obey the rules, especially on the bike. We’ve had some complaints in the past about another group in which some of its people didn’t follow and caused some problems with other triathletes in the race. Basically keep to your right unless to pass (to avoid obstructiong other people attempting to pass) and keep a good distance behind the cyclist in front of you to avoid drafting. 2) Have fun out there! If this is all your first time then don’t worry about time. Time will come in subsequent races. Your goal is to just finish the race, and to have fun while getting there. Heck, you put your hours into it, enjoy the reward of being one of the fitter people in society. Wish you all good luck and safe racing!                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMC’99: 10:45:03          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

The Mere Mortals training group has been meeting to train for a sprint distance race (The October 7 SRI Tri) since mid-July. This weekend, the 80-150 triathletes that show up for training will meet for the last time before their first real Tri. I’m going to spend some time reviewing the things our guest speakers has shown them and sharing tips. So I’m looking for your best RST tips for a new triathlete about to run their first race. Thanks! Tom

Response:

Neat! Please explain the drafting and blocking rules to them, and suggest they stay in the right side of the lane unless passing. Of course suggest the slower swimmers start in the back and off to the side, but also suggest to them that they put their goggles on before their swim cap, so as to prevent loss of goggles when they get kicked in the face (you may submit a gentler, less true reason for this). Tell them to enjoy their race and to marvel in wonder at the speed demons up front. Bet each one of them that they’re thinking about how they can do it faster next time on the drive home from the race, and tell them that they can find stories of people who started out similarly on our website at www.recsporttriathlon.com (plus lots of other tips) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Mere Mortals training group has been meeting to train for a sprint distance race (The October 7 SRI Tri) since mid-July. This weekend, the 80-150 triathletes that show up for training will meet for the last time before their first real Tri. I’m going to spend some time reviewing the things our guest speakers has shown them and sharing tips. So I’m looking for your best RST tips for a new triathlete about to run their first race. Thanks! Tom

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

You’re lucky you’re university pool is empty: I have to share it with a lot of old folks (retirees I guess) who have nothing else to do (I’m envious !) and so there’s sometimes 6 or 7 people per lane.

Man, you have to change pools. 6 or 7 people? Doing different things? I can’t see a decent workout being done when slaloming around people like that. The lifeguard in my pool knows that I won’t allow more than one person in the lane with me at one time. I hope you can find a better place to train Ron. I guess I’ve got it pretty good here. I train mid-morning at Homebush, in Sydney. The complex has 2 x 50m pools. The competition pool (when not actually being used for competition) is always fully laned (10 full-size lanes)

Now this sounds like a beautiful setup. Not one, but 2 olympic-sized pools. I envy you Mike. Although the pool that I go to is very decent and not usually crowded, more oftn than not at some point in my workout I usually have to share the lane with one other person. And it is only 25 meters long. Well, I guess I can practice my flip turns more often. Still, I’m pretty satisfied with the setup I have now. It’s not ideal, but it’s definitely acceptable.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMCAL, IMC Y2K IMC’99: 10:45:03          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

(Charlotte) writes: I need some help with swimming.  I read the Total Immersion book and was psyched to get into the pool for the first time for some laps. I go to the University pool where I work and find myself the only person there with 2 lifeguards staring at me.

As a lifeguard, and looking at your screen name, your swimming probably had less to do with the staring than you might think ; ) Butch

Response:

I am not a triathlete.  I have not yet admitted to myself that I am considering a triathlon, despite my running and biking every week. Somehow I find myself lurking on RST everyday reading your posts. Welcome!

Yeah. This is what happened to me. Your doomed Keep plugging away at the swimming, cos there is nothing like the buzz of really shifting in the water for the first time. Youll find if&when you improve that sweet spot feeling will come and go, but it becomes more frequent and longer each time you train. Brian P " newbie " Casey.

Response:

My advice is: -Get used to be in the pool, don’t make any expectations to swim 1000-2000 yards, see it as a relaxation to the other workouts you do! -If you have a local triathlon club it gives a lot to train with others;you get tips and maybe also a social reason to train! -If you race chose a competition at start with short distance for the swim part! -Don’t give up, it takes time to become a decent swimmer! Good luck! Gerry  Homepage

Response:

I go to the University pool where I work and find myself the only person there with 2 lifeguards staring at me.   Since I use the (free) University pool that is vacant most of the time, I can’t really see hooking up with any veterans either.

Charlotte’s received lots of other good advice so I won’t offer any more of that here, but just want to chime in with the others who have said, I AM SO JEALOUS!!  An *empty* university pool— nirvana!  Charlotte, what university is this??  An uncrowded 50-meter lap swim pool is ambrosia, it’s the stuff of dreams.  Sigh.   However, I must say that there might yet be some hope ’round this neck of the woods because they’re currently building an additional pool over at the aquatics center on campus.  Now we just have to hope that they can staff it adequately with lifeguards so that the additional capacity actually does some GOOD!   Pea green with envy— — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not a triathlete.  I have not yet admitted to myself that I am considering a triathlon, despite my running and biking every week. Somehow I find myself lurking on RST everyday reading your posts. I am not interested in spending a lot of money on coaches, camps, etc. since I haven’t even really decided to take the plunge into triathloning. If I can’t get the swimming going it’ll never happen. Since I use the (free) University pool that is vacant most of the time, I can’t really see hooking up with any veterans either. Does your University have a swim team? Or a Physical Education/Kinesiology degree? Often times, there are some assistant coaches/very good swimmers in the degree programs that are willing to help. Also, if your Univ. has a gym, they often have boards where one can advertise for workout partners, etc. All you need is a swimmer that has a talent for helping others with their stroke work.

Great suggestion.  This is how I learned to swim and got into triathlon. The Phys Ed department offered a 1 credit hour swimming "course".  It was essentially a university sponsored Masters team.  Okay, it was a bit more legitimate than that because they used us as guinea pigs by doing a series of tests on us at the beginning and end of the semester.  The coach/teacher wrote all the workouts and made us keep a log so that our progress could be tracked.  She even video taped our stroke to help us improve.  I took that course pass/fail every semester for about 4 years. Seems to me that even without this sort of class, a university is the perfect place for a Masters group or at least a swim club of some sort. Free or cheap access to a pool on campus and plenty of ex-high school swimmers.  Check it out, Charlotte, you just might find such a group.  And don’t be intimidated by all the real swimmers.  Groups like this usually welcome all comers. — Stacy Hills Reston, VA

Response:

Hello, Charlotte: My  experience several years ago was similar.  Lots of good advice has already been given, so I’ll give just a few observations.  Feeling comfortable while swimming takes a combination of skill and fitness — the fitness will come with practice (and quicker than you’ll expect), but the skill will take longer.  I found that the Total Immersion program was somewhat helpful, but after you start feeling more comfortable in the water, the Total Immersion program doesn’t give much help in actual stroke mechanics — and its hard to develop a good stroke when you don’t know what it’s supposed to look like, or why.  An hour with a master’s swim coach (or the university swim coach, or a team member, or an assistant) will get you specific feedback that will go a LONG way in allowing you to start with good stroke mechanics from the beginning, increase your confidence, and keep you from developing bad stroke habits that will cause you injury, and slow your progress.  Check back intermittantly for more pointers.  Go to the university library, or the P.E. department and read books on freestyle strokes if you can’t find the coach-type person.  If you’ve a friend that has a half-hour and a video camera, bribe him or her to video you from the front and the side while you swim a few laps.  You’ll see the areas where you need to change your approach in ways that you can’t identify yourself while in the water. Promise yourself that you’ll give it 10 sessions, and you’ll be hooked and feeling much more comfortable.   Best of luck! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not a triathlete.  I have not yet admitted to myself that I am considering a triathlon, despite my running and biking every week. Somehow I find myself lurking on RST everyday reading your posts. I need some help with swimming.  I read the Total Immersion book and was psyched to get into the pool for the first time for some laps. I go to the University pool where I work and find myself the only person there with 2 lifeguards staring at me.  I miserably churn out 250 yards and could have done more except that I was so downhearted.  I felt that I was trying to do everything at once (make my body l-o-n-g, breathe from both sides, swim downhill, etc.) and succeeded at nothing. Also, those 250 yards were a lot harder to come by than I thought they would be. Any suggestions?  I will try to focus on one drill at a time but it is VERY hard when I can feel the rest of my, ahem, form, go down the tubes. I am not interested in spending a lot of money on coaches, camps, etc. since I haven’t even really decided to take the plunge into triathloning. If I can’t get the swimming going it’ll never happen. Since I use the (free) University pool that is vacant most of the time, I can’t really see hooking up with any veterans either. Any suggestions, please??? Charlotte

Response:

You’re lucky you’re university pool is empty: I have to share it with a lot of old folks (retirees I guess) who have nothing else to do (I’m envious !) and so there’s sometimes 6 or 7 people per lane.

Tell me about it!! I mean, I don’t mind sharing the pool, but – SHARE THE POOL!! Only half the pool at my local Y is set aside for laps, and *still* there’s more water walkers in each lane than swimmers. I never woulda thought 8mos back when I started swimming that I’d ever have to swim a slalom around others. TriathRon

Response:

I guess I’ve got it pretty good here. I train mid-morning at Homebush, in Sydney. The complex has 2 x 50m pools. The competition pool (when not actually being used for competition) is always fully laned (10 full-size lanes) and the notice at the entrance states in no uncertain terms "lap swimming only" — each lane has boards indicating what is acceptable in each lane and everyone seems to play by the rules. The "training pool" as it’s called, has 3 lanes allocated without lane-ropes — for recreational swimming. The remainder is all laned and again with boards indicating what’s expected. It’s only when competitions are on that we all have to squeeze into the training pool, but normally I can do my entire session in the competition pool without having to share the lane. — MB.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re lucky you’re university pool is empty: I have to share it with a lot of old folks (retirees I guess) who have nothing else to do (I’m envious !) and so there’s sometimes 6 or 7 people per lane. Tell me about it!! I mean, I don’t mind sharing the pool, but – SHARE THE POOL!! Only half the pool at my local Y is set aside for laps, and *still* there’s more water walkers in each lane than swimmers. I never woulda thought 8mos back when I started swimming that I’d ever have to swim a slalom around others. TriathRon

Response:

I am not a triathlete.  I have not yet admitted to myself that I am considering a triathlon, despite my running and biking every week. Somehow I find myself lurking on RST everyday reading your posts.

Welcome! I need some help with swimming.  I read the Total Immersion book and was psyched to get into the pool for the first time for some laps. I go to the University pool where I work and find myself the only person there with 2 lifeguards staring at me.  I miserably churn out 250 yards and could have done more except that I was so downhearted.  I felt that I was trying to do everything at once (make my body l-o-n-g, breathe from both sides, swim downhill, etc.) and succeeded at nothing. Also, those 250 yards were a lot harder to come by than I thought they would be.

That’s probably because you havent swum a lot before. Once you get some workouts under your belt, things get a little easier. Any suggestions?  I will try to focus on one drill at a time but it is VERY hard when I can feel the rest of my, ahem, form, go down the tubes.

Use flotation devices. For example, use the leg floats to concentrate on arm drills, use a kickboard extended out in front of you for kick drills, etc. I am not interested in spending a lot of money on coaches, camps, etc. since I haven’t even really decided to take the plunge into triathloning.   If I can’t get the swimming going it’ll never happen. Since I use the (free) University pool that is vacant most of the time, I can’t really see hooking up with any veterans either.

Does your University have a swim team? Or a Physical Education/Kinesiology degree? Often times, there are some assistant coaches/very good swimmers in the degree programs that are willing to help. Also, if your Univ. has a gym, they often have boards where one can advertise for workout partners, etc. All you need is a swimmer that has a talent for helping others with their stroke work. Charlotte

Once again, welcome Charlotte! John "Ad astra per aspera" "A rough road leads to the stars"

Response:

I was in your situation 3 years ago… I could hardly make it a length of the pool swimming freestyle (crawl).  Luckily I could swim breaststroke forever, so my first season I did breaststroke for all my races. I also started doing the drills in the Total Immersion book, and they helped me a lot — after a few weeks of practice I had something like a freestyle stroke, and after a many months more I was able to swim a mile freestyle without stopping. I’m still working on it, and believe it or not, swimming can be fun!  I recently took the Total Immersion workshop and that helped a lot.  It got me past things that just the book & video tapes couldn’t. Having an empty pool is a luxury, so enjoy it!  Also, you probably don’t need to work on endurance so much… form is much more important when starting out with swimming. Seattle

Response:

Work on one thing at a time.  I am an ex-state champion swimmer and still to this day have to do lots of drill to keep my technique up.  I usually go into a workout thinking, today i am going to work just on my midphase or recovery, etc. you can only work on one thing at once and then things will start to come together as you improve technique. hope this helps

Response:

My advice, for what it’s worth — stick on a set of fins and practice those basic TI balance drills (especially the "glide on your side" ones) until you learn to relax and actually enjoy the experience. Trying to rip through all the drills and learn it all at once is what made it hard for me. I found I needed to slow it down and "fully" learn one thing at a time — and fins made it just that much easier to work it out in the beginning — however, you eventually have to wean yourself off them. — MB.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not a triathlete.  I have not yet admitted to myself that I am considering a triathlon, despite my running and biking every week. Somehow I find myself lurking on RST everyday reading your posts. I need some help with swimming.  I read the Total Immersion book and was psyched to get into the pool for the first time for some laps. I go to the University pool where I work and find myself the only person there with 2 lifeguards staring at me.  I miserably churn out 250 yards and could have done more except that I was so downhearted.  I felt that I was trying to do everything at once (make my body l-o-n-g, breathe from both sides, swim downhill, etc.) and succeeded at nothing. Also, those 250 yards were a lot harder to come by than I thought they would be. Any suggestions?  I will try to focus on one drill at a time but it is VERY hard when I can feel the rest of my, ahem, form, go down the tubes. I am not interested in spending a lot of money on coaches, camps, etc. since I haven’t even really decided to take the plunge into triathloning. If I can’t get the swimming going it’ll never happen. Since I use the (free) University pool that is vacant most of the time, I can’t really see hooking up with any veterans either. Any suggestions, please??? Charlotte

Response:

Just another tri person who started where you are and now does Ironman distance (albeit slowly).  Keep it up, do the TI drills, and you will find it easier to go the distance. –Lee Crumbaugh (Tri-Hard)

Response:

I did the total immersion video drills one-at-a-time and in two months (swimming 6X a week) I went from not being able to swim at all to my first sprint tri (okay, I hyperventilated on the swim but did a half-mile in 16 minutes and most importantly made it to my bike without drowning!)  I just signed up for a master’s class a few weeks ago.  I am the least able swimmer by far, but the people are kind and helpful – I am improving by leaps and bounds!  I’ve even learned how to butterfly (which believe it or not really helps with your freestyle stroke.) Good luck. The Phys Ed department offered a 1 credit hour swimming "course".  It was essentially a university sponsored Masters team.  Check it out, Charlotte,

you just might find such a group.  And – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t be intimidated by all the real swimmers.  Groups like this usually welcome all comers.

Response:

Charlotte, Everyone has given great advice. IMHO the key being keep at it and go at your own pace. I found it helpful to concentrate on intervals. Try swimming 250 yds worth of 25 or 50 yd intervals and rest 20 to 30 seconds between each one.  Keep good form and concentrate on one thing each workout (i.e.. swim downhill, glide on your side, etc.) After a couple of workouts  increase the number of intervals or cut the rest time by 5 or 10 seconds. After you a few weeks add one or two 75s etc. Your one step ahead of me when I first started, I didn’t know about RST until after I stumbled through my first sprint distance. Good Luck Jeff

Response:

I know this will go against the grain around here, but for now,forget everything you read in the TI book and just get to the pool and swim some laps in your own less than perfect way.  Work up to at least a half mile without resting, to get accustomed to it.

Hmmm…  interesting.  The way I figure it, 1/2 mile is about 35 laps? (25 yards per lap, 880 yards per 1/2 mile).  That doesn’t seem too unreachable. You also have to convince your inner self that you can keep swimming, that you’re not going to collapse and drown.  If you’re miserable, you haven’t overcome the natural instincts of a land mammal yet.

Yes, even though I KNEW I could stand up at any time in the 4 foot deep water, there was something in the back of my head whispering "you could drown, you’re too tired…"  I will not have that luxury in open water, so you’re right, I better get used to it. Thanks. Charlotte

Response:

I need some help with swimming.  I read the Total Immersion book and was psyched to get into the pool for the first time for some laps. I go to the University pool where I work and find myself the only person there with 2 lifeguards staring at me.  I miserably churn out 250 yards and could have done more except that I was so downhearted.  I felt that I was trying to do everything at once (make my body l-o-n-g, breathe from both sides, swim downhill, etc.) and succeeded at nothing. Also, those 250 yards were a lot harder to come by than I thought they would be. Any suggestions, please???

        I know this will go against the grain around here, but for now, forget everything you read in the TI book and just get to the pool and swim some laps in your own less than perfect way.  Work up to at least a half mile without resting, to get accustomed to it.  I’m not a swim coach, but I teach SCUBA, and a lot of the professional literature I read deals with the psychology of learning to dive, much of which applies to any aquatic activity.  The water is not your natural environment.  It is inherently hostile to a land based organism.  There are several changes, like prolonged exercise where you cannot just breathe naturally.  We also have a built in reflex to be upright in the water that must be overcome.  You also have to convince your inner self that you can keep swimming, that you’re not going to collapse and drown.  If you’re miserable, you haven’t overcome the natural instincts of a land mammal yet.         Once I had gotten used to the idea of spending an hour in the pool doing doing more than just goofing off, I found it far easier to do the TI drills and improve my form.  Also, once the lifeguards have seen you swim a half mile a few times, they are much less likely to interpret some of the TI balance drills as the behavior of a non-swimmer in distress.         There are all sorts of sophisticated tools for imporving one’s running form as well, but we’ve all been running in some form or another since we were toddlers.  That’s not the case with swimming.

Response:

Any suggestions, please??? Charlotte

My suggestion? Don’t worry about it and enjoy tri’s at whatever level you can. I’m a lousy swimmer. I’ve always been a lousy swimmer. I was lousy when I started 15 years ago and I’m lousy now. Pathetic, even. But you know what? I don’t really care anymore. <g  I still love triathlon and I’ve even managed to do an Ironman the last two years. I’m not saying not to try to improve. Just accept whatever level you manage to get to and don’t get obsessed about it. Mike "from the back of the pack" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

Response:

<big snip I AM SO JEALOUS!!  An *empty* university pool— nirvana!  Charlotte, what university is this??  An uncrowded 50-meter lap swim pool is ambrosia, it’s the stuff of dreams.  Sigh.  

Yes, it was empty or close to it the few times I’ve been there.  The hours are pretty awful but from your posts I should be thankful for what I have. If someone lives in central Ohio, wants a _very_ newbie swimming partner and access to this pristene pool for free, send me an email.  Be forewarned, the email address is munged. Charlotte P.S.  Thanks for all the great advice!  I called the pool today and I can use the kick boards, fins, etc. for free!  We’ll see how it goes…

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Any suggestions?  I will try to focus on one drill at a time but it is VERY hard when I can feel the rest of my, ahem, form, go down the tubes.

I feel your pain.  I’ve been doing triathlons since 1991, am well acquainted with all the Total Immersion stuff, and still am one of the world’s worst pool swimmers.  (Just ask the coach of my master’s team!)  I’ll tell you what, psychologically, convinced me that I could actually do triathlons.  I bought a triathlon wetsuit, and started wearing it occasionally when swimming in the pool.  I still remember as though it were yesterday the amazing feeling I had when wearing the wetsuit for the first time.  Hey, this makes swimming easy and fun!  I can float!  I’m not getting as tired as before!  I’m much faster!  That feeling gave me the motivation to keep trying to get to the point where I could swim like that without the suit.  I haven’t ever really succeeded at that goal but hey, I’m still doing triathlons and having fun 8 years later.  (And most triathlons let you wear a wetsuit anyway–I wouldn’t consider for a second doing an open-water swim without one) Good luck! –Steve Gregg

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Charlotte At the risk of repeating what others have said: 1. take it one step at a time – drils to work on specific parts of the storke 2. don’t do drills when tired – you’ll just reinforce bad habits 3. persevere. Swimming is a co-ordination and balance sport. You might liken learning it to learning to ski, row, or on a more sedentary level, drive a manual (stickshift) car. All of them require you to make fine body movements in a particular order with a particular timing. It’s not going to come together overnight, but it won’t take as long as you think. Good Luck – aim high Greg Banner

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Charlotte,     Like you, I wanted to compete in triathlon, but was (and still am) a weak swimmer.  For the first couple years in the sport, I limited myself to 1/4 mi. swims because anything longer and I’d be so far behind…  However, the Ironman bug bit and I needed at least enough endurance to swim 2.4 miles within 2:20.  As it worked out, I began swimming with a group of younger swimmers and this helped me develop the endurance (if not speed) that I needed.    Now I’ve done an IM swim in wetsuit (1:30) and without (1:45).  I still have a ways to go, but the perseverance allowed me the opportunity to explore new areas in triathlon.     My advice is to stick with it; the endurance and efficiency improve with practice.  Swim with others if you can; this really helps with the motivation.  Finally, set swimming goals to fuel your motivation.     Good luck. Jim Bruckart

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not a triathlete.  I have not yet admitted to myself that I am considering a triathlon, despite my running and biking every week. Somehow I find myself lurking on RST everyday reading your posts. I need some help with swimming. Any suggestions, please???

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Any suggestions, please???

Charlotte, I was once exactly where you are now and got some great advice right here on RST. The best piece of advice I can give you is to stop when your form begins to deteriorate, take a break, catch your breath, think about what you are working on, and then start again. Also don’t worry about what you look like or what people think of you, that is only counterproductive. Swimming is something that you must simply stick with and do regularly and over time you will improve. It is also very important that you not worry about how fast you are going. At this point just go slow, relaxed, and easy, and work on form. A pull buoy can be a great tool to allow you to concentrate only on your breathing and/or arm stroke. Sorry about the rambling, It’s the end of a long day. I Hope this helps                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

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I am not a triathlete.  I have not yet admitted to myself that I am considering a triathlon, despite my running and biking every week. Somehow I find myself lurking on RST everyday reading your posts. I need some help with swimming.  I read the Total Immersion book and was psyched to get into the pool for the first time for some laps. I go to the University pool where I work and find myself the only person there with 2 lifeguards staring at me.  I miserably churn out 250 yards and could have done more except that I was so downhearted.  I felt that I was trying to do everything at once (make my body l-o-n-g, breathe from both sides, swim downhill, etc.) and succeeded at nothing. Also, those 250 yards were a lot harder to come by than I thought they would be. Any suggestions?  I will try to focus on one drill at a time but it is VERY hard when I can feel the rest of my, ahem, form, go down the tubes. I am not interested in spending a lot of money on coaches, camps, etc. since I haven’t even really decided to take the plunge into triathloning.   If I can’t get the swimming going it’ll never happen. Since I use the (free) University pool that is vacant most of the time, I can’t really see hooking up with any veterans either. Any suggestions, please??? Charlotte

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Question:

Heat is bad, Humidity is bad, Cold (above 0′F) is bearable, Snow is bad. Although I know some runners who love hot, humid days. Bill

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I guess i have a high body temperature or something (possibly my body has adapted to living in Buffalo), but i generally dislike running in temps. above 80 F. It takes all my energy away. I once went for a run during a vacation in florida, it was about 90 F and quite humid, that was not fun. I ran to the beach (about three miles from the hotel) and promptly jumped in the water. Oh well. Todd Vogt Univerisity at Buffalo Department of Biochemistry

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I would have to agree with "Hoffman"…..by nature we are warm blooded creatures. I think the body adjusts to warmth much easier.                              " JOE’s  opinion "

Hi: I’m not sure what you mean by "adjust." In running (which is what we’re talking about),  heat has a negative effect on the ability to perform. Some handle it better mentally than others, but few (if any) can perform better at 95-100 degrees than they can at 55 degrees. It has to do with efficiency in the body. For some good facts on the effects of heat on running, check out: http://www.zunis.org/index.html Like Phil, I look forward to Fall in the south when the temperatures finally start to drop into the 60’s and you can up the pace. "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One possible factor is that you can train harder <consistently in cooler climates. That could more than make up for acclimatization problems. It is VERY difficult to train hard in the south in the summer. A couple of us have kicked this around in the past. There’s no conclusive evidence, but I’m now leaning toward accepting the "harder training makes up for it" argument. I wish it was different, hailing from down south… I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training. I’m a northerner… and I love the cold… I even wanted to move to Alaska just so as to avoid the summer months in NY. However, as a runner I ditched the Alaska idea when I made the decision that running in the cold far outweighs running in the heat on the scale of suckiness.

I don’t mind hot weather. That’s why I live down here. <g I just recognize now that it would be more beneficial overall to train in a cooler climate because my overall training pace would be higher. Thus I might be faster. I wish I could say that training in the heat physically helps me run faster in it, but I don’t think that’s the case. It helps to accept it mentally, but I don’t think that overcomes the handicap of my overall slower training pace for a good part of the year. This is a change in thinking on my part. Anecdotal evidence seems to bear this out. Northern runners seem quite capable of coming down here and cleaning our clocks even when the heat gets extreme. I suspect it’s because they can train harder overall. But I agree that the "green grass" syndrome is there for most folks. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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I hate heat more. You can always put on more clothes, as another poster pointed out, but once you’re nekkid, that’s it. Where do you go? But, that’s why people settle down in different geographic areas. I truly do not believe that I could be happy in a warm climate, just because I’d miss winter. Obviously there are plenty of folks who feel the opposite. Whatever. So, what do your tallies prove so far, Mr. Hoffman? well, at least nobody’s posted a new message to this NG about the bloody imp**chment postponement or Operation "Oh, Crap. Did We Really Name This One After a Nazi?", yet, Dirk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One possible factor is that you can train harder <consistently in cooler climates. That could more than make up for acclimatization problems. It is VERY difficult to train hard in the south in the summer. A couple of us have kicked this around in the past. There’s no conclusive evidence, but I’m now leaning toward accepting the "harder training makes up for it" argument. I wish it was different, hailing from down south… I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training. I’m a northerner… and I love the cold… I even wanted to move to Alaska just so as to avoid the summer months in NY. However, as a runner I ditched the Alaska idea when I made the decision that running in the cold far outweighs running in the heat on the scale of suckiness. Heat and cold are obviously two very different sensations, and each one has its drawbacks, but of the two… I think cold is worse for training.  I look at it this way. Which one keeps more people indoors? The heat, or the cold?  I think the cold keeps far more people in. Whenever I go to Florida, no matter how hot it is; 80, 90, 95++, I see lots of people around in the sweltering heat, no matter how hot it is.. When it is 20 degrees in the north; almost everyone chooses to be indoors. Heat can be tolerated; at the very least you can simply train at a lower intensity so you dont get so hot… or run at night. But when its cold… hell… you dont even want to bother because being cold is such an unpleasant feeling (which is all the worse when running because it puts a sting in your lungs)….. But… to each his own.

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Preferably, I’d take neither! <g  My favourite time for running is around 0530 on a summer morning, all the better if it’s out in the country/woods! And even more so if it’s raining!  But too much heat ain’t good, and cold weather is even worse for me – makes my knees hurt.  Arthritis maybe?  No chance of finding me running up here in the -30C weather we tend to have in the winter!!  And another question on the side: Does anyone else find that running in the rain gives them a mental edge or am I just wierd? Take care, Cindi Cindi Prudhomme Carleton University Ottawa, ON

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I have run in everything from the 40C heat of India during the hot season to the -25C cold of a Canadian winter. I am not sure which end of the spectrum I really "hate" At either end of the temp. scale I look at it as more of a challenge to get out the door and get in a run. I just enjoy getting out the door for a run regardless of the weather. Steve Fleck  

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in Atlanta. This time of year is the perfect time of year to be piling on the mileage and intensity. The grass is definitely greener on my side. The temps are in the 40-55 range and low humidity. What I am confused by one thing. Why am I virtually the only runner out there right now? On my normal route during the summer I see maybe 5 to 10 other runners. Now I rarely see anyone. Do people think that if you’re not sweating a gallon of fluid then you’re not really exercising? I’m out there and noticing the same thing. Ran 16 mi on Peachtree Rd. Sunday in 50 degree drizzle wearing a tank top and short-shorts! Maybe you were the one guy I crossed paths and exchanged a brief greeting with? That’s not cold.

I agree. That’s why I said "This time of year is the perfect time of year."    -Phil

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by nature we are warm blooded creatures.

Polar bears are warm blooded<g Jim

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in Atlanta. This time of year is the perfect time of year to be piling on the mileage and intensity. The grass is definitely greener on my side. The temps are in the 40-55 range and low humidity. What I am confused by one thing. Why am I virtually the only runner out there right now? On my normal route during the summer I see maybe 5 to 10 other runners. Now I rarely see anyone. Do people think that if you’re not sweating a gallon of fluid then you’re not really exercising? I’m out there and noticing the same thing. Ran 16 mi on Peachtree Rd. Sunday in 50 degree drizzle wearing a tank top and short-shorts! Maybe you were the one guy I crossed paths and exchanged a brief greeting with?

That’s not cold.  In Wisconsin, that’s warm.  About a week ago, I started out on a 2 hour run with the temps in the low 50s.  I just wore a t-shirt and shorts.  Within 15 minutes a cold rain started.  15 minutes later it was rain mixed with hail and the temp had dropped into the low 40s.  About an hour into my run I was being pelted with hail, and was freezing.  Then it started to snow–big wet flakes that got me totally soaked (fortunately I wasn’t wearing cotton).  By the time I made it back home the snow was falling faster and starting to pile up.  I got inside and fell down on the floor.  An unpleasant side effect of being soaked with freezing water was significant and rather painful "shrinkage" down below.   Those temps are actually pretty high; this has been an unusually warm fall in the Midwest. A couple of years ago I remember being out for a run with only one layer on my hands.  It was about 10 degrees F ambient temp.  I came out onto a lakefront stretch that had no shelter; the wind was whipping off the lake so hard that within a couple of minutes my fingers were throbbing with pain.  I had to run inside a building–they hurt even worse while they were warming up.  Now I wear a liner and wind-proof mittens whenever its below 20 degrees or so. Personally, I would love winter running if it meant 50 degrees. tom

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Just to let you know there’s at least one other nut still out there!

I think the ones that are nuts are the ones that only run when it’s 90 degrees and 80% humidity.    -Phil

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I think it also has lots to do with definitions of "hot" and "cold."  Here in Austin, "hot" can be (and often is) 100 degrees and 98% humidity.  "Cold" is usually not less than 40 degrees or so, and moderate humidity.  Thus, I much prefer the "cold" weather. My sister in Minneapolis, however, has different definitions.  To her, typical summer conditions might be eighties, albeit muggy.  "Cold," however, means -20 degrees and practically zero humidity – real lung-burner weather.  Thus, she rarely runs between Thanksgiving and Easter. It’s all relative! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training. I live in Atlanta. This time of year is the perfect time of year to be piling on the mileage and intensity. The grass is definitely greener on my side. The temps are in the 40-55 range and low humidity. What I am confused by one thing. Why am I virtually the only runner out there right now? On my normal route during the summer I see maybe 5 to 10 other runners. Now I rarely see anyone. Do people think that if you’re not sweating a gallon of fluid then you’re not really exercising?    -Phil

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I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training.

I live in Atlanta. This time of year is the perfect time of year to be piling on the mileage and intensity. The grass is definitely greener on my side. The temps are in the 40-55 range and low humidity. What I am confused by one thing. Why am I virtually the only runner out there right now? On my normal route during the summer I see maybe 5 to 10 other runners. Now I rarely see anyone. Do people think that if you’re not sweating a gallon of fluid then you’re not really exercising?    -Phil

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In rec.running I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training.

Well, you pegged me there, as a southerner. Heat can be tolerated; at the very least you can simply train at a lower intensity so you dont get so hot… or run at night.

I do run at night, winter and summer.  Perhaps since it doesn’t get as cold as it does up north, I prefer the cold.  The fact is that I perform best when the temps are in the 50s to 60s.  The only time I ever get that here is during the winter.  In the Houston area, it only gets in the low ’80s at night, but the humidity soars to near 100%.  Your sweat does nothing but soak you. But when its cold… hell… you dont even want to bother because being cold is such an unpleasant feeling (which is all the worse when running because it puts a sting in your lungs)….. But… to each his own.

I can always put on more clothes when it is cold.  In the summer, what do you do when a tank top and shorts aren’t enough?  I run in the AC at my club or on a treadmill. Bruce in Katy Texas

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People are affected by heat and humidity differently.  Just like the effect of hills.  Interesting though that the South contingent did the worst by far in both races. Jim Rech

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I live in Atlanta. This time of year is the perfect time of year to be piling on the mileage and intensity. The grass is definitely greener on my side. The temps are in the 40-55 range and low humidity. What I am confused by one thing. Why am I virtually the only runner out there right now? On my normal route during the summer I see maybe 5 to 10 other runners. Now I rarely see anyone. Do people think that if you’re not sweating a gallon of fluid then you’re not really exercising?

I’m out there and noticing the same thing. Ran 16 mi on Peachtree Rd. Sunday in 50 degree drizzle wearing a tank top and short-shorts! Maybe you were the one guy I crossed paths and exchanged a brief greeting with? I suppose for the folks who go for light recreational runs, the unpleasantness outweighs the benefits. I have to admit numb hands and sore lungs from the cold air aren’t particularly enjoyable. (I have gloves but I don’t like to wear many clothes when running.) Also, people around here just aren’t prepared for cold weather. (Ref. how the whole town shuts down whenever we get snow flurries!) Just to let you know there’s at least one other nut still out there! chuck | chuck lail  | i go through all this before you wake up                | |   godot     | so i can feel happier to be safe again with you – bjork |

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I would have to agree with "Hoffman"…..by nature we are warm blooded creatures. I think the body adjusts to warmth much easier.                               " JOE’s  opinion "

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Well, I live in Anchorage, Alaska and I don’t know what Heat is. LOL. A hot summer day around here is about 75′ F. Sometimes that can drain me. If I ever visit the South in summer I doubt I would be able to run two miles. Now, the Cold!  The beautiful Cold! I love running in the Cold! Running outside in the winter is exhilarating. The scenery, at least around here, is magnificent. I get a sense of peace and serenity on winter runs that I don’t get any other time of the year. I especially love Sunday morning runs on the Coastal Trail when it is cold. I usually have the trail to myself. It is quite a high. And running in the winter develops toughness. And a oneness with nature. I love seeing moose and ravens on my runs. Tough creatures that stick it out in the winter. Unlike the wimpy bears that sleep through it. And I’m glad they do. I get to run on trails that I wouldn’t go anywhere near in the summer. Ahhh, indeed, give me -20′ F over 90′ F anyday!

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One possible factor is that you can train harder <consistently in cooler climates. That could more than make up for acclimatization problems. It is VERY difficult to train hard in the south in the summer. A couple of us have kicked this around in the past. There’s no conclusive evidence, but I’m now leaning toward accepting the "harder training makes up for it" argument. I wish it was different, hailing from down south…

I always find this line of conversation interesting because it always smells of "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.  I think southerners are more inclined to despise hot weather, and northerners are more prone to despise cold weather; at least in the context of training. I’m a northerner… and I love the cold… I even wanted to move to Alaska just so as to avoid the summer months in NY. However, as a runner I ditched the Alaska idea when I made the decision that running in the cold far outweighs running in the heat on the scale of suckiness. Heat and cold are obviously two very different sensations, and each one has its drawbacks, but of the two… I think cold is worse for training.  I look at it this way. Which one keeps more people indoors? The heat, or the cold?  I think the cold keeps far more people in. Whenever I go to Florida, no matter how hot it is; 80, 90, 95++, I see lots of people around in the sweltering heat, no matter how hot it is.. When it is 20 degrees in the north; almost everyone chooses to be indoors. Heat can be tolerated; at the very least you can simply train at a lower intensity so you dont get so hot… or run at night. But when its cold… hell… you dont even want to bother because being cold is such an unpleasant feeling (which is all the worse when running because it puts a sting in your lungs)….. But… to each his own.

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These runners have been training and racing in cool to outright cold weather for the past month or so.  Getting acclimated to warm, humid weather in a short amount of time is extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It doesn’t seem fair to some of the cold weather athletes, but hey, I guess that’s life.

I think most people have alot less problem with this situation than would be the reciprocal case. Its alot easier to adjust to 60/70′ish type weather than it is to acclimitize to running up north in shorts and tank top in 20-40 degree’ish weather with wind chill factors that could get even lower than that.

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Just a thought on this outstanding showcase of high school running talent. I’m sure that the kids have a blast in Florida in December and it’s an all around great experience for them.  But, it seems a little unfair to the athletes from the Northeast, MidAtlantic, Upper Midwest, etc. to deal with the Florida weather, especially the humidity.

I ran a race in VanCortland Park the same day as the Northeast XC championships Thanksgiving weekend and let me tell you it wasn’t typical NE weather. I was running in shorts and singlet and sweating my brains out a few days after Thanksgiving. Believe me the NE kids are ready for the weather. BTW the highschool girls champion beat my time by nearly 30 seconds! Andrew Heiz

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        I disagree.  Going to heat and humidity increases the physiological stress on the body.  Going to cold increases the psychological stress.  It is easier to warm up and to add a layer of polypro and a hat than to get cool.         If I am not mistaken, both winners were from up north—and I think it has been warmer in the Midwest and Northeast than usual which could not hurt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These runners have been training and racing in cool to outright cold weather for the past month or so.  Getting acclimated to warm, humid weather in a short amount of time is extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It doesn’t seem fair to some of the cold weather athletes, but hey, I guess that’s life. I think most people have alot less problem with this situation than would be the reciprocal case. Its alot easier to adjust to 60/70′ish type weather than it is to acclimitize to running up north in shorts and tank top in 20-40 degree’ish weather with wind chill factors that could get even lower than that.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a thought on this outstanding showcase of high school running talent. I’m sure that the kids have a blast in Florida in December and it’s an all around great experience for them.  But, it seems a little unfair to the athletes from the Northeast, MidAtlantic, Upper Midwest, etc. to deal with the Florida weather, especially the humidity. These runners have been training and racing in cool to outright cold weather for the past month or so.  Getting acclimated to warm, humid weather in a short amount of time is extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It doesn’t seem fair to some of the cold weather athletes, but hey, I guess that’s life. The results probably both support and contradict what I’m saying.  All I know is that when we visit my in laws in Florida once a year, I have extreme difficulty in getting in good workouts in the heat and humidity . . . and I’m a well conditioned triathlete. Dave

Hi, Results from the US Nationals in triathlon, held in Clermont, Fl this year <in very hot conditions don’t quite support your hypothesis. The yanks took more than their fair share of awards. One possible factor is that you can train harder <consistently in cooler climates. That could more than make up for acclimatization problems. It is VERY difficult to train hard in the south in the summer. A couple of us have kicked this around in the past. There’s no conclusive evidence, but I’m now leaning toward accepting the "harder training makes up for it" argument. I wish it was different, hailing from down south… The level of the runners involved may also be a large factor. Elite runners should run well anywhere. Age groupers and Boppers may be more effected by the heat. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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A girl from Vermont has won the last two years. — Ray "my VT high school didn’t have X-country" Charbonneau R107 – End User Computing The MITRE Corporation – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         I disagree.  Going to heat and humidity increases the physiological stress on the body.  Going to cold increases the psychological stress.  It is easier to warm up and to add a layer of polypro and a hat than to get cool.         If I am not mistaken, both winners were from up north—and I think it has been warmer in the Midwest and Northeast than usual which could not hurt. These runners have been training and racing in cool to outright cold weather for the past month or so.  Getting acclimated to warm, humid weather in a short amount of time is extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It doesn’t seem fair to some of the cold weather athletes, but hey, I guess that’s life. I think most people have alot less problem with this situation than would be the reciprocal case. Its alot easier to adjust to 60/70′ish type weather than it is to acclimitize to running up north in shorts and tank top in 20-40 degree’ish weather with wind chill factors that could get even lower than that.

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Just a thought on this outstanding showcase of high school running talent. I’m sure that the kids have a blast in Florida in December and it’s an all around great experience for them.  But, it seems a little unfair to the athletes from the Northeast, MidAtlantic, Upper Midwest, etc. to deal with the Florida weather, especially the humidity. These runners have been training and racing in cool to outright cold weather for the past month or so.  Getting acclimated to warm, humid weather in a short amount of time is extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It doesn’t seem fair to some of the cold weather athletes, but hey, I guess that’s life. The results probably both support and contradict what I’m saying.  All I know is that when we visit my in laws in Florida once a year, I have extreme difficulty in getting in good workouts in the heat and humidity . . . and I’m a well conditioned triathlete. Dave — "Why do you participate?" "Because I am Mad" –Response from an English competitor to the question asked on the entry form for the Marathon des Sables, the 142 mile run across the Moroccan Sahara.

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Question:

Search for books about running, health, fitness and more from www.wright.edu/~burns.8 You can order online and have the books delivered to your door.  Use them for yourself or as gifts.

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[via e-mail and ng] Allow me to EDUcate you.  The rules of engagement: 1) Post commercially from an edu account and breach TOS; 2) Post commercially to a ng then you better dress cool ’cause heat’s comin’ pal; 3) You get one warning shot (from me anyway).  Persist and you’ll be terminated with malice. (by me anyway) Search for books about running, health, fitness and more from www.wright.edu/~burns.8

Post commercial crap again and search for God and a bright light at the end of tunnel. You can order online and have the books delivered to your door.  Use them for yourself or as gifts.

Use them as a splint. Jennifer – target locked; laser printer set to crispy fry…"well punk, do you feel lucky?"

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can anyone recomend some good books on running? One that I am currently reading and enjoying is "Better Runs" by Joe Henderson.  Very anecdotal, with A LOT of information.  He doesn’t focus on one trainig style of schedule, but instead present several, and lets you make your own choice.  He covers alot of running related topics as well.  Well written, and a good read!

A book full of cop-outs and excuses for slowing down. The author, obviously a runner with declining times, fills chapter after chapter; page after page, with negatives and excuses and other reasons to run than to improve. If that is the sort of book you want – if you’re a vet looking for motivation etc then great. If however you are looking for a book that offers ways to improve (something you would expect from both the book’s title and it’s summary on the jacket) and to run faster or longer, rather than for more years or with a happier feeling inside (etc, etc) then give it a miss. — Joe Gonzalez

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can anyone recomend some good books on running? One that I am currently reading and enjoying is "Better Runs" by Joe Henderson.  

snipped A book full of cop-outs and excuses for slowing down. The author, obviously a runner with declining times, fills chapter after chapter; page after page, with negatives and excuses and other reasons to run than to improve. If that is the sort of book you want – if you’re a vet looking for motivation etc then great. If however you are looking for a book that offers ways to improve (something you would expect from both the book’s title and it’s summary on the jacket) and to run faster or longer, rather than for more years or with a happier feeling inside (etc, etc) then give it a miss.

Hmmm, this seems like a difference in definitions. Obviously "Better" Runs means different things to different people. To me,  "better" running isn’t necessarily  faster or longer –  it can be just enjoying it more. Now, no-one has ever accused me of not being competitive and I value my PR’s as much as anyone. I still have some unfulfilled racing goals (an Ironman Triathlon, for example).   But as I get older, I do find myself looking for more than just PR’s. If Henderson’s book can offer some insight into making my overall running more enjoyable, I think I’ll check it out. Mike Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar FTP Race Apps, FAQ, Download The WebRunner Racing Utilities http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

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can anyone recomend some good books on running?

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can anyone recomend some good books on running?

Check out The Athlete’s Bookstore at http://www.stevenscreek.com/books/ for dozens of good books at all levels. The hands-down #1 book over the years is, of course, Galloway on Running, but there are LOTS of others at all sorts of levels. "Training books" (like Galloway) are by far the most popular type of book, but for my taste other types of books ("history" books like ones about the Boston Marathon or the Dipsea, or even novels like Once a Runner) are just as useful for inspiring a love of running which actually translates for someone like myself into improved results just as much as reading training books. To each their own, obviously. — Steve Patt  Stevens Creek Software  The Athlete’s Diary & Bookstore  WWW: http://www.stevenscreek.com  FTP: ftp.stevenscreek.com  1-800-TA-DIARY

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can anyone recomend some good books on running?

One that I am currently reading and enjoying is "Better Runs" by Joe Henderson.  Very anecdotal, with A LOT of information.  He doesn’t focus on one trainig style of schedule, but instead present several, and lets you make your own choice.  He covers alot of running related topics as well.  Well written, and a good read! Brian.

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does anybody know wes sites for triathlete mag. or other sites having trouble going into web. thanks in advance if you know please answer

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http://www.triathletemag.com/tri/ And I suggest going to www.yahoo.com and typing triathlete in the search box.  this is a surefire way to find multiple sites. Chuck james

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Try the below address, and it will get to just about wherever you want to go (related to triathlons, that is) does anybody know wes sites for triathlete mag. or other sites having trouble going into web. thanks in advance if you know please answer

– Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://w3.one.net/~triweb

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Question:

This was the Mazda Triathlon. This year is the tenth running. The old race Director pulled out along with Mazda. This year could be good with the new race Director Jack Carress (he does the Cleveland race, the 1996 World Championship). Here is how to enter. CALL 1-800-357-9699 or FAX 970-221-4196. It’s only $60 before May 30 or $70 on race day. It should be a good race See you there….

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I give up. What does Macko mean? It didnt say anywhere on the application (my money is on the way, btw)

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<<In the year or so, I have been part of this group, I’ve been the flamer, <<the flamee, made some damned good friends and learned more about triathlon <<than in previous years combined. I really look forward to logging in every <<day and seeing what you all have to say. I really want to flame you bad right now, but because you just gave birth I’ll wait a few days. QRman

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Just wanted to say thanks for all of the kind wishes and nice thoughts from my fellow rst’rs. Baby Madison Laine Zagarino is home and leading us through a sleep deprivation study. The results are….I’m too beat to discuss the results. In the year or so, I have been part of this group, I’ve been the flamer, the flamee, made some damned good friends and learned more about triathlon than in previous years combined. I really look forward to logging in every day and seeing what you all have to say. This is the reason I keep competing. I could have done one triathlon for the challenge, but I’ve done over a hundred because of the people. <sappy, sentimental mode off (being a new father will do that to you) ZAG

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Apologies for sending this note to all of rst around the world, but is anyone familiar with Lake Sunapee, New Hampshire and the race course for the ironman-distance tri they are holding there on September 16? If it’s the same course they used a few years ago, it has an enormous hill on the bike course. Multiply that by five loops. That’s what I’ve heard, but I’ve never done it. Maybe someone who’s raced it could reply? Cathy Corning

According to the March issue of MetroSport magazine (free mag on the east coast), Rich Havens is "moving the Endurance back to Sunapee, NH, to a new multi-loop course."  From that info I can only guess it’s a new loop course on the same hilly terrain.   The rest of the brief article goes on about how Martha’s Vineyard stiffed him, even though he contributed gobs of money to the local Boys & Girls Club.   There is also a schedule that I’m typing up to post here.  FIRM has about one race per week for the summer.  They list the NETS Baystate Tri as an ironman qualifier (July 23), but I think that might be wrong. joe jankovsky "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars.   Don’t hurt yourself, though."         WWW:    http://www.cis.yale.edu/~jjankov/             New England Triathlon Page:           http://www.cis.yale.edu/~jjankov/ne.html

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I did the Bud Lite Endurance Triathlon (BLTS) in September 1989.  That was the first year the Endurance was held at Sunapee after several years at Cape Cod.  I think it was held there in ‘89, ‘90, and ‘91 by DMSE with Rich Havens as the Race Director (Rich is the race director this year with his own company, Time Out Productions,  and was the race director last year at Martha’s Vineyard). First off:  for a first year event, Rich and his crew did an excellent job in 1989.  Well volunteered and during race refreshments as good as I’ve seen at Ironman Canada.  I would expect nothing less from him due to his vast experience and first hand race knowledge. Course:  oh…so tough… Swim:  in Lake Sunapee, it was chilly (67F or so) our day, but flat and clear. Bike:  several loops (4 or 5, I’m not sure) with a little loop at the beginning of the ride to get the distance to 112.  There was not much wind our year, but it sure had it’s share of nice hills and tough rollers. Believe me, these hills grew by the 3rd or 4th lap  The downhills were a gas though.  Definitely a 39 tooth front chain ring course. Run:  most difficult, hilly marathon course I’ve run (in an Ironman or as a straight marathon).  3 loops with an initial short loop to make the distance 26.2.  Again, I’d swear those hills got bigger by the 2nd and 3rd loop .  And now that it’s been 5.5 years, I actually now think those hills were actually mountains . Race day weather:  90’s for the most part that day (oh…my).  Eben Jones, the ‘89 winner (who eventually turned pro), was quoted in the following morning’s paper "this makes Hawaii look easy."  I’m not sure if I’d go that far, but he’s more likely to know. If you’d like, I’d be happy to send photocopies of pre/post race mailings, newspaper articles, and accomdation info from my training log.   Michael Valleriano Webster, NY

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this hill i way over rated. a 42-19(with 7700s wheels) was more than enough for one lap, and for the road race using the same course, for an ironman distance race you may want a 39-19, or 39-21 depending on you riding skills. —arr—

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I must ask arr:  Have you done the Sunapee Ironman?  If not, isn’t it a bit presumptious to call the hill "overrated?"  I’ve done that Ironman twice and the USCF road race held on the same course, once.  Sure, anybody can get up the hill once and think, "no big deal."  However, climbing "the hill" once is a far cry from climbing it five times during a 112 mile race, and then following those climbs with a marathon. Context is everything – there is no comparison. Respectfully, Cory H.

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I have done the lake Sunapee Endurance triathlon twice before. I’m surprised and glad to hear that it is back on. The bike course loop is rolling hills… I recall that it actually has 3 hills, one of them ( the last of the loop) quite steep.  I can’t remember anything as being "flat" If you are familiar at all with cycling in NH, there is rarely any flat, and most hills are short and steep.  I think for gearing I used a 42/26 (which I definately used on the last two loops). I would definately train for hills… a friend of mine also did the course but only trained on a flat course in NJ and the hills got to him. The run course is also rolling hills as well, and it used to be 3 loops and let me tell you it’s tough to head out for that third time. The run also has an additional hill right at the end (to get to the base of the ski area) where the finish line is. In the years i’ve done it there have been only 200 or so entrants.One nice thing is the weather… its always been in the mid-70’s and perfect for racing.   I’ll take a look to see if i have any specific information from the past year’s race course (profiles etc) to give to you (maybe fax something to you if  you’d like)  I could also compare it to Hawaii and Ironman Canada courses, if that would help. cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Apologies for sending this note to all of rst around the world, but is anyone familiar with Lake Sunapee, New Hampshire and the race course for the ironman-distance tri they are holding there on September 16? I am training for my first ironman-distance event, which I was planning to do at Martha’s Vineyard this Fall, but I have learned that the race is moved to Lake Sunapee.  I know from the race materials I just received from them that the bike course is 5 loops (each ~22 miles) around the lake, and that the run course is a double out-and-back. Is anyone familiar with this lake/this course?  In particular, any info on how hilly it is (elevation profile), and what the roads are like?  112 miles in the form of 5 very hilly loops(if that’s what it is) is a change from what I had in mind, and may require some modifications in training plans (e.g. lots of hill work, and combining hills with long rides).  Their race entry sheet describes the bike course as a "mix of flat and rolling hills," but they don’t show elevation profile, and "rolling hills" is one of those expressions that can mean many things — I just want to have a better idea what to prepare for. *Any* information from anyone who knows the course would be very much appreciated! Thanks, Rory Stuart

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Apologies for sending this note to all of rst around the world, but is anyone familiar with Lake Sunapee, New Hampshire and the race course for the ironman-distance tri they are holding there on September 16? I am training for my first ironman-distance event, which I was planning to do at Martha’s Vineyard this Fall, but I have learned that the race is moved to Lake Sunapee.  I know from the race materials I just received from them that the bike course is 5 loops (each ~22 miles) around the lake, and that the run course is a double out-and-back. Is anyone familiar with this lake/this course?  In particular, any info on how hilly it is (elevation profile), and what the roads are like?  112 miles in the form of 5 very hilly loops(if that’s what it is) is a change from what I had in mind, and may require some modifications in training plans (e.g. lots of hill work, and combining hills with long rides).  Their race entry sheet describes the bike course as a "mix of flat and rolling hills," but they don’t show elevation profile, and "rolling hills" is one of those expressions that can mean many things — I just want to have a better idea what to prepare for. *Any* information from anyone who knows the course would be very much appreciated! Thanks, Rory Stuart

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Apologies for sending this note to all of rst around the world, but is anyone familiar with Lake Sunapee, New Hampshire and the race course for the ironman-distance tri they are holding there on September 16?

If it’s the same course they used a few years ago, it has an enormous hill on the bike course. Multiply that by five loops. That’s what I’ve heard, but I’ve never done it. Maybe someone who’s raced it could reply? Cathy Corning

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Rory, Your goal is a worthy one – good luck! I have done the Lake Sunapee Endurance/Ironman Triathlon twice, as well, as its predecessor, the Cape Cod Endurance/Ironman, also twice.  (I have not done the Martha’s Vineyard version of the Endurance Ironman, but my guess is that its difficulty level is similar to that of Cape Cod.) In my mind, there is no comparison between the difficulty of Cape Cod and Sunapee; Sunapee is a far more challenging race. The swim at Sunapee is magnificent.  It’s really as nice a swim as you can hope for.  Lake Sunapee is clean, clear, and beautiful.  The only concern you might have is the temperature.  On an early September morning, the air temperature in New Hampshire can be pretty cool, so be sure to have some clothing to wear over your suit until the swim start.  Fortunately, the water will probably still be warm.  However, bring your wetsuit.  The two years that I did the race, wetsuits were allowed as the surface water temps were around 68-70 degrees.  Only a small handful of people did the swim without a wetsuit. The bike course consists of five, hilly, sometimes quad-burning, loops. Some of the hills are long, gradual climbs, while others are short, steep climbs.  One hill, in particular, is a monster.  It is not particularly long, but it is deceptively STEEP.  By your third loop, you wonder how you will conquer it again.  In fact, towards the later stages of the ride, many people were walking their bikes up the hill.  The moral of this story is: make SURE that you bring the appropriate gearing.  A 12X19 freewheel is not the way to go on this course.  Most of my buddies, two of whom were favored pros, had 13×26s.  You need to think in terms of high rpm spinning so that you have enough left for the run.  The well-stocked aid stations are spaced at 5 mile intervals. The run is a double out and back.  The course consists of persistent rolling hills with only a few, shorter, steep moments.   Aid stations are evey mile. One aspect of Sunapee which makes it special, in my mind, is the fan support.  The local residents really come out in full force to support the athletes.  The whole day has a festive atmosphere:  lawn barbecues, keg parties, inflatable Gumbies, horn-honking – the works.  (Yes, I enjoyed a Bud on the course – it was great!  But I didn’t break the rules, I received it an aid station. ) Sunapee is a great race.  It is well organized, the course is beautiful, and the fan support can’t be beat.  My only reservation would be in recommending it to first-timers.  Doing your first Ironman is hard enough.  But doing Sunapee as your first might not be the best idea. Particularly, if you have not done a lot of serious, regular, and consistent, hill training.  On the flip side, as I recall, the majority of the participants were first timers, and most of them finished.  If they did it, so can you.   I would recommend an ‘esier’ course for your first Ironman, but, if you have got your heart set, go for it!  It’s a great race. Good luck and happy training! Cory H.

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