Question:

I was in the same situation as you. www.totalimersion.net is a god send. I went to a two day class and it really improved my swimming. If you casn’t get to a class, read the articles or buy his book "Swimming Made Easy" It’s all about balance and economy. Invest in a good wetsuit even if not required in the race. It helps out with bouyance. I’m trying my first IM this summer. Three years ago I could hardly swim 100 m.

Response:

Hey Rob, I’m a bit of a newbie/lurker here as I have only recently made the decision to do a Try-A-Tri in May. I, too, am starting not quite from scratch, but need a lot of work. I have done the front crawl with the face out of the water for years, but after seeing triathletes (and swimmers, of course) putting their faces in the water for the exhale, I figured I should learn that in order to be most efficient. I’m also going to be starting private lessons soon, mainly to learn the front crawl properly, and to correct my technique on other strokes if necessary. I’m decent (tho’ self-taught) at the side stroke, breast stroke, and various back strokes and crawl. Distance-wise, I can nearly do the race distance now using these other strokes, but am not wasting my time doing the front crawl improperly any longer… I’ll wait for the lessons. There are many of us in the same boat here, Cam — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Response:

scratch, but need a lot of work. I have done the front crawl with the face out of the water for years, but after seeing triathletes (and swimmers, of course) putting their faces in the water for the exhale, I figured I should learn that in order to be most efficient.

Definitely want to do so – face out is much more tiring.   For racing purposes, you don’t need to worry about other strokes, unless you want a rest stroke for the very long swims. — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rob, I’m in the same position as you, I can swim 25yd front crawl then I’m out of breath. I’m aiming for my first sprint tri in May. I’ll keep you updated how my swimming is going. Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Yes, please do. Its good to hear that theres other novice lurkers on the group Second lesson at lunchtime today! Have been practising and feel that I have defnately improved over this past week. I’ll let you know how it goes. cheers Rob

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Rob, I’m a bit of a newbie/lurker here as I have only recently made the decision to do a Try-A-Tri in May. I, too, am starting not quite from scratch, but need a lot of work. I have done the front crawl with the face out of the water for years, but after seeing triathletes (and swimmers, of course) putting their faces in the water for the exhale, I figured I should learn that in order to be most efficient. I’m also going to be starting private lessons soon, mainly to learn the front crawl properly, and to correct my technique on other strokes if necessary. I’m decent (tho’ self-taught) at the side stroke, breast stroke, and various back strokes and crawl. Distance-wise, I can nearly do the race distance now using these other strokes, but am not wasting my time doing the front crawl improperly any longer… I’ll wait for the lessons. There are many of us in the same boat here, Cam — Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

I can do the exhaling underwater bit. Good luck anyway – its been something I’ve been meaning to do for a couple of years now  (sort out my swimming I mean) and am glad I have finally motivated myself to do it. cheers Rob

Response:

Rob, I’m in the same position as you, I can swim 25yd front crawl then I’m out of breath. I’m aiming for my first sprint tri in May. I’ll keep you updated how my swimming is going. You guys have more than enough time.  I started swimming late in February last year for a 2400m ocean swim.  I too could go only 25-50 yards at a time and then I’d need to stop and breathe.  I went out about every 5 days and swam 1000-2000m and within 2 months, I had built up my endurance to swim it nearly non stop, with a 15 sec breather every 400yards.   Just keep swimming, and stop when you have to.  I give people the same suggestions when they start running – go 3 miles, and whenever you need to stop and walk for 20 seconds, then start running again.

Cool, good to hear its feasible anyway! Thats exactly how I started running – I used to do three miles three times a week when I first started, and I used to have to stop for a breather every now and again.  There was a very small hill (and I mean small) less than a mile from my flat, and I very clearly remember having to stop on it, and this very drunk guy shouting ‘encouragement’ at me.  Its amazing when I think back to how unfit I was! cheers Rob

Response:

I can do the exhaling underwater bit. Good luck anyway – its been something I’ve been meaning to do for a couple of years now  (sort out my swimming I mean) and am glad I have finally motivated myself to do it. cheers Rob

likewise… although i’ve been pretty much a non-swimmer for most of my life. after i saw my daughter enjoying and doing so well at her swim classes, it got me to thinking…. i should do this too! best of luck to you too, Cam

Response:

scratch, but need a lot of work. I have done the front crawl with the face out of the water for years, but after seeing triathletes (and swimmers, of course) putting their faces in the water for the exhale, I figured I should learn that in order to be most efficient. Definitely want to do so – face out is much more tiring.   For racing purposes, you don’t need to worry about other strokes, unless you want a rest stroke for the very long swims.

in my case i may need another stroke for a bit of a rest here and there, depending on how proficient i become at the front crawl in the next few months. thanks… Cam

Response:

<snip offer of training in Canada I meant Windsor, UK! I live in Wimbledon, London.  

Yes, but the swim over to Ontario will do wonders for your swimming stamina… Iain

Response:

Heck, if I would have know you were a Brit I would of used a whole different line of slander. Even though the Brits aren’t Americans like the Canadians, they are still OK. When I saw them playing the Star Spangled Banner (our national anthem) at the changing of the guard in honor of the dead from the WTC I was moved and felt a real kinship. Since then I think we have both kick some Al Quida ass. We have reduced them from taking multiple planes at a time to sending some guy with exploding shoes who can’t get the the fricken fuse lit. And you can trust that even though the shoe man was a Brit it means nothing to us. You guys are the best. Heck we have our own Taliboy. BW P.S. I like to use "heck" and "big ole" as much as possible to prove I’m an Merican. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What?!!! Canadians can swim in the winter? I thought even the indoor pools froze over. Seriously, I did my first with about the same amount of training time. You won’t have any problem if you’re diligent in training. I did an international (Olympic) length which is a 1.5k (you’re Canadian, you can convert that to meters). I couldn’t swim 100 yards (that’s like a meter but shorter or longer) without totally losing my breath. I resorted to using a snorkel and mask until I had the muscle/lung tone to do the whole distance. Then I weaned myself off the snorkle by doing 100 with, 100 without and increasing the without each workout until I was free of it. I am 40+, 6′4, ~240 lbs (that’s like a a stones weight or a kilo or something but weighs less or more) and I have the swimming aerodynamics (or is it aquadynamics?) of a barge. One final note. If you hear a loud slap, slap, slap with each stroke; the lake is FROZEN! Your fellow American (Yes Canadians are Americans too!) BW ;^) Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob I meant Windsor, UK! I live in Wimbledon, London.  Hopefully somewhat warmer than canada at this time of year, though you do have to swim in the Thames for locals Tris which is not an attractive prospect. Anyway – thanks to both who replied for the advice.  I will check out the total immersion website, look for a swimming/tri club to train with and work hard at building my stamina! I’m glad to hear my schedule is feasible. Down the pool tomorrow (saturday) morning! cheers Rob

Response:

<snip offer of training in Canada I meant Windsor, UK! I live in Wimbledon, London.   Yes, but the swim over to Ontario will do wonders for your swimming stamina… Iain

It certainly would! Managed some time in the pool on saturday, was quite pleased with my progress! I’m starting to believe its a doable schedule! I didnt manage any huge distance, indeed I stopped for a short rest after every length (30m pool), but I did quite a few lengths, and found the new style a lot easier. cheers Rob

Response:

Rob, I’m in the same position as you, I can swim 25yd front crawl then I’m out of breath. I’m aiming for my first sprint tri in May. I’ll keep you updated how my swimming is going.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Response:

Rob, I’m in the same position as you, I can swim 25yd front crawl then I’m out of breath. I’m aiming for my first sprint tri in May. I’ll keep you updated how my swimming is going.

You guys have more than enough time.  I started swimming late in February last year for a 2400m ocean swim.  I too could go only 25-50 yards at a time and then I’d need to stop and breathe.  I went out about every 5 days and swam 1000-2000m and within 2 months, I had built up my endurance to swim it nearly non stop, with a 15 sec breather every 400yards.   Just keep swimming, and stop when you have to.  I give people the same suggestions when they start running – go 3 miles, and whenever you need to stop and walk for 20 seconds, then start running again.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

What?!!! Canadians can swim in the winter? I thought even the indoor pools froze over. Seriously, I did my first with about the same amount of training time. You won’t have any problem if you’re diligent in training. I did an international (Olympic) length which is a 1.5k (you’re Canadian, you can convert that to meters). I couldn’t swim 100 yards (that’s like a meter but shorter or longer) without totally losing my breath. I resorted to using a snorkel and mask until I had the muscle/lung tone to do the whole distance. Then I weaned myself off the snorkle by doing 100 with, 100 without and increasing the without each workout until I was free of it. I am 40+, 6′4, ~240 lbs (that’s like a a stones weight or a kilo or something but weighs less or more) and I have the swimming aerodynamics (or is it aquadynamics?) of a barge. One final note. If you hear a loud slap, slap, slap with each stroke; the lake is FROZEN! Your fellow American (Yes Canadians are Americans too!) BW ;^) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What?!!! Canadians can swim in the winter? I thought even the indoor pools froze over. Seriously, I did my first with about the same amount of training time. You won’t have any problem if you’re diligent in training. I did an international (Olympic) length which is a 1.5k (you’re Canadian, you can convert that to meters). I couldn’t swim 100 yards (that’s like a meter but shorter or longer) without totally losing my breath. I resorted to using a snorkel and mask until I had the muscle/lung tone to do the whole distance. Then I weaned myself off the snorkle by doing 100 with, 100 without and increasing the without each workout until I was free of it. I am 40+, 6′4, ~240 lbs (that’s like a a stones weight or a kilo or something but weighs less or more) and I have the swimming aerodynamics (or is it aquadynamics?) of a barge. One final note. If you hear a loud slap, slap, slap with each stroke; the lake is FROZEN! Your fellow American (Yes Canadians are Americans too!) BW ;^) Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

I meant Windsor, UK! I live in Wimbledon, London.  Hopefully somewhat warmer than canada at this time of year, though you do have to swim in the Thames for locals Tris which is not an attractive prospect. Anyway – thanks to both who replied for the advice.  I will check out the total immersion website, look for a swimming/tri club to train with and work hard at building my stamina! I’m glad to hear my schedule is feasible. Down the pool tomorrow (saturday) morning! cheers Rob

Response:

Hi Rob, Sounds like you are starting with the most important aspect of swimming technique!  Glad to hear you are taking lessons.    For more info on swim technique you should check out the Total Immersion website at www.totalimmersion.net.     I would suggest you finish off this set of lessons and then you should find a masters group to swim with.  do you live in the Windsor area?   if so I know a few groups of people who are training for tris there that you could hook up with.    of if you are closer to London, we have at a triathlon training group here in London Ontario.  if details. Happy Laps!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Response:

Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Response:

Question:

You do not understand the liberal mind:  If one person is misusing something, it needs to be banned for everyone.  Liberals love to run other people’s lives.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some background here. This is in response to numerous incidents here in Chicago involving bicycle messengers, who have grown increasingly careless, obnoxious, and occasionally murderous, toward pedestrians and drivers in the downtown area. In spite of numerous promises to police themselves, and curb dangerous behavior, they have actually gotten worse. Many incidents involve serious injury to pedestrians, fatal accidents, and the recent murder of a pedestrian. We aren’t talking about the average recreational rider. This is way off topic but the iea of banning cyclists makes my blood boil so bad I can’t resist responding. In San Francisco we have major problems with law-breaking, insane bike messengers too, but I can’t imagine why bicycle commuters should have to pay the price. Why not just enforce the traffic laws and cite the bicyclists with violations when necessary. Or, if someone just has to be banned, ban the lousy messengers, not other cyclists. While messengers are a nuisance and a danger here, the traffic conjestion is paranormal, and constitutes a WAY bigger problem, so bicycling should be strongly encouraged, not discouraged or banned in any city. Jessica

Response:

I suspect that the layout and proximity of work to residence in Chicago severely limits bike commuting in Chicago. It’s flat tanatamount to suicide.

My Brother-in-Law has comuted by bike from Brookfield to downtown (near Washigton & State) for years.  His only real problem has been many, many flat tires due to glass, etc. Jim

Response:

You do not understand the liberal mind:  If one person is misusing something, it needs to be banned for everyone.  Liberals love to run other people’s lives.

Sorry, this has nothing to do with running, but anyway. From Merriam-Webster Online (http://www.m-w.com/): Main Entry: 1lib

Question:

Baby oil works great – even after a year! ……. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another wetsuit marking question: In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea. If it comes off easily, why mark it in the first place?  If it doesn’t come off, that’s no good.  If it comes off with chemicals, won’t they hurt the neoprene? Mark Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

Don’t worry – the Vineman people have the metallic pen – they do the marking. Baby oil works great to remove it later. ……. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the same question for Vineman – where do we get a metallic pen??? Another wetsuit marking question: In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea. If it comes off easily, why mark it in the first place?  If it doesn’t come off, that’s no good.  If it comes off with chemicals, won’t they hurt the neoprene? Mark Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t worry – the Vineman people have the metallic pen – they do the marking. Baby oil works great to remove it later. ……. David I have the same question for Vineman – where do we get a metallic pen??? Another wetsuit marking question: In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea.

I’m guessing that if you didn’t pull your wetsuit out of your bag you would not have to have it marked. It’s probably for identification purposes later if your suit goes astray out of your swim finish bag. At the International distance race in June they were not marking wetsuits. clm in sf — Cathy Morgan San Francisco, CA REMOVE ZZ ZZ to e-mail me.

Response:

I have the same question for Vineman – where do we get a metallic pen??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another wetsuit marking question: In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea. If it comes off easily, why mark it in the first place?  If it doesn’t come off, that’s no good.  If it comes off with chemicals, won’t they hurt the neoprene? Mark Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

Even better: Last I heard, there were only about 2,000 members of USA Triathlon. So, you could have "US" then your race number marked on your wetsuit.  (So, competitors from other countries would not be affected and could have, say, "OZ" and their local triathlon organization’s number.) Anybody paying the one-day fee wouldn’t benefit from this idea, but we can hope that the majority of them are not regular triathlon competitors. How about it?  One number for every race?  Sure would make compiling national statistics a lot easier.

Response:

Take it one step further and put your Social Insurance Number or Social Security number on the outside. Alastair – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even better: Last I heard, there were only about 2,000 members of USA Triathlon. So, you could have "US" then your race number marked on your wetsuit.  (So, competitors from other countries would not be affected and could have, say, "OZ" and their local triathlon organization’s number.) Anybody paying the one-day fee wouldn’t benefit from this idea, but we can hope that the majority of them are not regular triathlon competitors. How about it?  One number for every race?  Sure would make compiling national statistics a lot easier.

Response:

Mark: I agree with you. We have offered trade in programs on older Ironman Wetsuits in the past. Consequently, I have a warehouse filled with demo/used Wetsuits. A few of these suits have metallic race numbers marked on the suit. This explains where they came from. Your right, this metallic stuff will not come off using conventional non-petroleum based products. I will run some more experiments and keep you abreast. Marking your race number on a wetsuit with a permanent marker is not a great idea. I have competed where they mark the outside of your hand with your race number. This works well for those individuals still wearing fullsuits as they enter T1. It makes more sense then scarring your wetsuit. Besides, what are the chances of you receiving race #1182 again ?? Wait a minute, maybe everyone could buy new wetsuits after each race. Keith Ironman Triathlon Wetsuits Website: www.ironmanwetsuits.com toll free order line: 800-897-6464 international calls: 804-288-6000

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another wetsuit marking question: In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea. If it comes off easily, why mark it in the first place?  If it doesn’t come off, that’s no good.  If it comes off with chemicals, won’t they hurt the neoprene? Mark Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

Another wetsuit marking question:   In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea. If it comes off easily, why mark it in the first place?  If it doesn’t come off, that’s no good.  If it comes off with chemicals, won’t they hurt the neoprene? Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

Question:

Hello folks! Just bought such a heart rate monitor without ANY documentation nor papers. I am aware it is downloadable from Polar but they require a serial number … Could some kind soul please send me the documentation for this? Thx, Ebi

Response:

: Hello folks! : Just bought such a heart rate monitor without ANY documentation nor papers. : I am aware it is downloadable from Polar but they require a serial number … … so take a look behind the watch. The serial number should be written there. //Timo

Response:

Question:

A smoking and a non smoking section is kinda like a peeing and a non peeing section in the pool if it’s not in two completely separate rooms. I walk into a restaurant now and notice if someone in the far corner is smoking, and don’t think twice about going else where if there isn’t a smoke free area. Joel — Joel Sylvester Longest Day ‘98 12:10:33 Me: www.roe.ac.uk/jswww/ Edinburgh Triathletes: www.edintri.u-net.com

– Achim Wilfried Heinle

Response:

I’d be interested to know if the current practise in places that have clamped down on smoking is working, ie the numbers of smokers is going down. On my trips to California I’ve enjoyed the smoke free atmosphere in workplaces, restaurants and bars, especially in LA where the air seems cleaner inside than outside. I understand that advertising has been banned in Sweden. I’ve noticed in the UK that over the past 10 years or so smoking has become less and less socially acceptable, and I’ve become less and less tolerant of it as a result. I walk into a restaurant now and notice if someone in the far corner is smoking, and don’t think twice about going else where if there isn’t a smoke free area. I return from an evening out, and I strip off in the hall, the clothes go straight in the washing machine, and I have a shower before I go to bed so the smell of smoke doesn’t get in to the bedroom. There are more and more smoke free restaurants and even pubs. Whether people are giving up or not, my own environment is becoming far more pleasent and healthy. But I don’t think the figures in the UK show that the actual number of smokers is going down. I’m all for banning cigarette advertising and sponsorship, outlawing it in public places and taxing it to death. But I wonder if in countries which are taking the lead against smoking, people are simply retreating to their own homes or actually giving up. – Looking forward to the club Christmas meal and disco. Lots of food, booze, gossip, dancing and NO SMOKE! Joel — Joel Sylvester Longest Day ‘98 12:10:33 Me: www.roe.ac.uk/jswww/ Edinburgh Triathletes: www.edintri.u-net.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

While I support the concept of enough people making the personal choice to eschew tobacco that farmers find themselves switching to other produce which has a better market, I find it sad that so many people subscribe to the "it’s bad, let’s outlaw it", whatever "it" is.  You have not only personal choice, but a responsibility to choose wisely.  You have the opportunity to influence your children and friends.  Frankly, I consider the laws to save us from ourselves to be worse that nuisances, but rather an erosion of the principle of freedoms in life. Just as the (US) government protects our rights to advocate an unpopular point of view, it should also allow consenting adults to have their party without interference from others.  This would apply to tobacco growers and smokers in this case.

Amen, brothe Thad. Many could learn from your point of view. Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

Response:

There is a local Tobacco festival that sponsors a 5K.  While I’ve never done it, it has been staged for several years now.  I would think this implies it has been somewhat successful.  I wonder what the awards would be?  Pack of smokes?  Maybe in addition to age groups, they have smoker/non-smoker divisions? Dave B. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

Response:

the question: why are cigarettes — undeniably lethal — legal and marijuana, undeniably safer, with admitted benefits for some, illegal?  You can’t get past the hypocrisy.  

I dunno, I have a hard time swallowing the "undeniably safer" assertion. It strikes me that weed’s mind-altering characteristics render it pretty darned unsafe.  And it still isn’t any picnic for the lungs. Having said all that, I agree that legalizing the junk probably is smarter than the current practice.  Legalize it, control it, tax it, and make some money off of it.   Disgusting stuff.  But we all have our vices.  I admit to being addicted to endorphines, sugar, and bubble-gum. — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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: I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting : events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. : : True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as : directed". : You could say that air kills most of its users.

Air kills it’s users? Oh come on Daniel, does anyone make a fat profit out of making it more addictive and therefore more deadly to it’s users? Well, yes of course they do, the tobacco industry. I’d say I get through a fair bit of air every week and I’m confident that my lungs and circulatory system are in better shape than if I’d combined my air intake with tobacco smoke. Phil Squire – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Daniel.

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Get off your high horse Steve.                 Scott Galehouse

Why? I happen to agree and find nothing "high horse" about it. I would not attend a triathlon or run sponsored by a tobacco company. I quit smoking and find nothing remotely positive about a product that is the antithesis of health. Mike "What’s so unusual about that?" Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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Hey, Maybe we can get a drug cartel to sponser a triathlon too. you know, free speach and all.   And the good thing about about Mariajunna, Cocaine, Angel dust, and Heroin is all of them combined kill les than 2% as many people every year as compared to tobacco.   So before we let the Drug Kingpins (Tobacco Company Executives) of the deadliest drug known to man sponsor our triathlons, maybe we should start out with some of the not so dangerous drugs. Steve Adams  P.S.(Joe Camel is a drug pushing scumbag)

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I would run a marathon for a Camel. — — Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

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Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. It’s legal status is a fact and rather oxymoronic considering it’s distructive nature.  I can only hope that in my lifetime it is banned and the tobacco growers can find an alternate product to grow so the current tobacco industry can financially survive.

While I support the concept of enough people making the personal choice to eschew tobacco that farmers find themselves switching to other produce which has a better market, I find it sad that so many people subscribe to the "it’s bad, let’s outlaw it", whatever "it" is.  You have not only personal choice, but a responsibility to choose wisely.  You have the opportunity to influence your children and friends.  Frankly, I consider the laws to save us from ourselves to be worse that nuisances, but rather an erosion of the principle of freedoms in life. Just as the (US) government protects our rights to advocate an unpopular point of view, it should also allow consenting adults to have their party without interference from others.  This would apply to tobacco growers and smokers in this case. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore. A product we don’t like and a product that distroys life, is not quite the same, at least in my book.  

Who is "we"?  Certainly not all citizens.  As far as destroying life, the same could be said statistically of cars or bicycles.  Every person chooses their own risks and pleasures. Yes, I endorse your right to boycott tobacco-sponsored events.  And no, I don’t smoke. Thad

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Great thread on tobacco sponsorships, but only theoretical, wot?  It seems unlikely that we’ll ever hear of the Kool Lite Ironman Championship (although if I’m not mistaken  "Lucky 7," the sponsor of an adventure race in China, is a Chinese cigarette co.). Cigarettes are lethal, but also legal.  So long as they’re legal, cigarette co.s have 1st Amendment rights and can advertise and sponsor events.  Why not? And any individual can choose to participate, stay home, set up a picket line, smoke or not smoke, based on his or her principles, lack of principles, or interest.  These ideas seem basic. More interesting, and raised by only one writer that I noticed (hi, Steve), is the question: why are cigarettes — undeniably lethal — legal and marijuana, undeniably safer, with admitted benefits for some, illegal?  You can’t get past the hypocrisy.   I don’t smoke or use anything (except Zantac, vitamin supplements, soy protein powder, Met-Rx, and daily asperin, natch), but let’s face it — we could erase the national deficit with what we spend on the "war on drugs" (the results of which make Vietnam look like a victory). A Martian, here for only one day, would send home the irrational report that some mind-altering, potentially harmful substances (tobacco, alcohol) are legal with only some (if any) adverse social consequences to their users, and others illegal, with potentially disasterous consequences (life in prison for a 3rd strike, e.g.).  What’s the point? So I’m wating for the announcement of the Kona Gold Ironman Championship, with awards for every participant.

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Excellent, this got something going, I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed". Use, mind you, that is fully a VOLUNTARY action on the part of the user. Must we ban the legal advertisement of a legal product considering smoking is an activity people choose to do?

If I wrote we / you (I’m not in the US) should ban the advertising of a legal product then I don’t recall doing so. What I said was that : True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed".

I DID NOT advocate the banning of tobacco advertising. What you seem to be hung up on is the fact that tobacco is legal, and therefore it is OK to advertise it without scruple? FWIW I would not take part in any Triathlon that I knew was sponsored by a tobacco company. Red meat and butter, dare I say, kill their users, too, used as directed. Do you suggest banning them from sponsorship, too?

I DID NOT advocate the banning of tobacco advertising / sponsorship! Red meat and butter are not addictive, nor do the companies who produce them tamper with the product in order to make them more so. I did write: "I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech." My intention was to illustrate that if the majority find something unacceptable then something would / should be done. While that is not the case, fine, anything goes. I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech. Sure, like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. However, I’d bet more people find trampling on the constitution much more unacceptable than Marlboro sponsoring a few sporting events.

Absolutely, however I have not suggested the banning of advertising, neither did I suggest trampling upon the constitution. (This constitution/trampling thing is always a good way of getting feelings going) Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. I said the "so called" right to free speech because I felt, perhaps wrongly, that there must have been laws passed to change the original bill of rights. Correct me I I’m wrong. This is America.

Well, no it isn’t. This is the Internet, and while America has the majority of subscribers, it is not the Internet. Nor is Usenet. Free speech is for everybody. Usenet is a great example.

Absolutely. OOI do you draw no limits on free speech at all? Phil Squire – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) Me? Oh I just rant on;-) Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. If tobacco use did not attract and harm so many of our youth and it wasn’t such a known killer and/or distroyer of quality of life for all, then I would agree.

Doug, you may need government to tell you what you can and cannot put in your body, as long as it doesn’t harm others. I don’t. I do not favor youth smoking. However, I find it ridiculous that we scratch our heads and wonder why teenage smoking is going up considering we’re doing everything to outlaw it—except outlawing it! If it’s so bad, it ought to be outlawed. Period. But the government makes money on cigs, so it will never be so. In the meantime, we tell kids smoking is bad and evil. So naturally, they do it. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. It’s legal status is a fact and rather oxymoronic considering it’s distructive nature.  I can only hope that in my lifetime it is banned and the tobacco growers can find an alternate product to grow so the current tobacco industry can financially survive.

So I guess you do need government to tell you what you can, and cannot, put in your body, tobacco-wise. Can you still get them cheap at the PX?

Don’t know. Never smoked. Never will. Never bought ‘em. If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal. You have my vote.  And to think, we would ever agree.

It will never be outlawed because the states are making money off the "tobacco deal." To outlaw it would mean less money for the states. The states make more money off tobacco than the tobacco companies do. A product we don’t like and a product that distroys life, is not quite the same, at least in my book.

And you, Doug, have the choice whether to injest such product. We all have the right to destroy our bodies, right? If your answer is no, do you favor government mandated exercise? I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) A surprise that you feel the urge to rant or the fact you stopped with one iteration? <g

I’ll keep going as long as this thread does. That’s how I operate. Hi, Doug!! Hugs and kisses to you. Does this mean we can go to the zoo together?  :)

Bronx or PDX? Mike — When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed".

Use, mind you, that is fully a VOLUNTARY action on the part of the user. Must we ban the legal advertisement of a legal product considering smoking is an activity people choose to do? Red meat and butter, dare I say, kill their users, too, used as directed. Do you suggest banning them from sponsorship, too? I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech.

Sure, like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. However, I’d bet more people find trampling on the constitution much more unacceptable than Marlboro sponsoring a few sporting events. This is America. Free speech is for everybody. Usenet is a great example. I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) Me? Oh I just rant on;-)

Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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: I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting : events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. : : True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as : directed". : You could say that air kills most of its users. Daniel.

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Get off your high horse Steve.                 Scott Galehouse

It’s not about being on a "high horse".  It’s about a group of people without morals or conscience getting rich by peddling a highly addictive and poisinous product.   I have watched several friends and a few relatives die as a direct result of tobacco and I will say it again. I would have nothing to do with any athletic event that had a tobacco company sponsor.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

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I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine.

If tobacco use did not attract and harm so many of our youth and it wasn’t such a known killer and/or distroyer of quality of life for all, then I would agree. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily.

It’s legal status is a fact and rather oxymoronic considering it’s distructive nature.  I can only hope that in my lifetime it is banned and the tobacco growers can find an alternate product to grow so the current tobacco industry can financially survive. Can you still get them cheap at the PX? As a sociey we do set many double standards. We often point at alcohol for valid comparison. I’m sure there are others.     If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal.

You have my vote.  And to think, we would ever agree. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore.

A product we don’t like and a product that distroys life, is not quite the same, at least in my book.   I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^)

A surprise that you feel the urge to rant or the fact you stopped with one iteration? <g Hi, Doug!!

Hugs and kisses to you. Does this mean we can go to the zoo together?  :) — Caveat Lector!

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Sort of a chicken and egg or selling your soul to the devil problem. Remember in the earlier days of the Ironman, Budlight was a title sponsor. I’m sure MADD if it existed back them would not have been happy.  The Budlight sponsorship probably helped the Ironman survive to what it is today. When Hooter’s signed as a major sponsor for the Aloha Bowl there was an uproar here in Hawaii.  Let face it unless the the people making the noise can come up another sponsor, the Aloha Bowl has no choice.  In fact considering the bad economy in Hawaii, the Aloha Bowl is pretty lucky. All events rely on volunteers to survive.  The major events need sponsorship.  I know Valerie Silk as much as she loved the Ironman could not put the Ironman on for free.  I seem to recall she eventually needed to come up with prize money to continue Ironman’s success. I love participating in triathlons.  I know the small events I participate in are successful because of the volunteers.  I make it a point to volunteer for sporting events that I don’t particpate in.  In fact, it’s a lot of fun watching some kid who look no more than 5 years old or someone who looks like they are in their eightys complete a 1K or 2K swim. Bottom line, we need volunteers and sponors. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

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  C’mon, the irony of tobacco sponsorship in triathlon is quite amusing. I say let tobacco companies put up their money–I don’t think that they are going to convert many triathletes into smokers.     Brian Meyer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. The thought of a tobacco company sponsoring an athletic event is repugnant to me and I would have nothing to do with such an event.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

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Get off your high horse Steve.                  Scott Galehouse

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What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events.

The thought of a tobacco company sponsoring an athletic event is repugnant to me and I would have nothing to do with such an event.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

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I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily.

True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed". If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore.

I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech. I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^)

Me? Oh I just rant on;-) Phil Hi, Doug!! Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign

So true! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

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Who cares.  I know I don’t.  I do not use the products, and am more than willing enough to aloow for lower app. fees, and larger prozes for thos who win (certainly not me). I don’t think the tri sports, or most others for that matter are in danger od being influenced by Joe Camel. I know I personally do not let politically correct decisions run my daily life (I am a cop, i can’t).  If they want to write a check, I say give them a pen. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

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What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken

I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore. I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) Hi, Doug!! Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/. Although this is somewhat suggestive, it does NOT mean that secondhand smoke constitutes a danger. — [Eric Rescorla

Please read the complete report at WWW.WHO CARES IT JUST STINKS. COM D.J. " did you ever look at a real pretty girl in a car blowing cig smoke out  of her mouth at a stop light— YUK"  (IRONKID)

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Those who supported tobacco sponsorship of triathlons and road races may be interested in a detailed analysis of the product. The province of British Columbia has published the first publicly. detailed analysis of chemicals contained in Canadian cigarettes. Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

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Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/.

Although this is somewhat suggestive, it does NOT mean that secondhand smoke constitutes a danger. The issue here is that they’re measuring the output in terms of ug/cigarette, but what’s relevant is total intake into your lungs, which is much more difficult to measure. That said, this report is fairly loaded. The quotes for how dangerous the various chemicals are are quite misleading. While I’m sure taht some of these chemicals are quite toxic, let’s take a look at of them:         Acetone: "Workers exposed to acetone vapours experienced transient         eye and nose irritation." Acetone is widely used in nail polish remover. When I worked in a chemistry lab, we used to use squirt bottles of acetone to dry glassware.         Ammonia: "Ammonia can increase susceptibility to viral illness and         aggravate chronic respiratory conditions." Ammonia is a common kitchen cleaning agent. It’s one of the components of Windex. Note that both ammonia and acetone have quite noticeable smells, but you can’t smell either of them in cigarette smoke to any noticeable degree. I suspect you get FAR more exposure to ammonia when cleaning the kitchen. Remember, we’re talking about inhaling fumes here, not drinking it. Similarly, listing hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide is fairly misleading. They’re both quite toxic, but they’re acute toxins not cumulative toxins. So, if you’re not suffering ill effects immediately, you’re probably not going to. (They interfere with transport). There’s nowhere near enough in secondhand cigarette smoke to do you any damage at all. Your car puts out a lot more CO, for instance. Look, it’s perfectly clear that smoking is bad for you, but this sort of list of toxic chemical without any indication of the generally considered safe amount is just irresponsible. By constrast, it’s not clear that secondhand smoke is bad for you, and this doesn’t add anything to that debate either. -Ekr —           eTrain – free triathlon training software               http://www.rtfm.com/tri/etrain.html

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Eric Rescorla wrote "your car puts out a lot more CO, for instance" I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want to sit behind a parked car sniffing the fumes on any kind of a regular basis.    Or to compare it to second hand smoke, (Kids don’t do this without your parents permision) Try bringing your car into the living room, close all the doors and windows, start the car, then take a nice little nap.   Now you’ve proved your point, your car does put out a lot more CO, and everyone in the house is dead. How does that make second hand smoke not bad for you? Steve "I’d rather sit next to an I.V. drug user than to sit next to a smoker" Adams

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In reference to dangerous babbling about the second hand smoke not being a health hazard, you either work for a cig company, have never been out in the real world and exposed to some idiot blowing his/hers putrid smelling smoke in your direction or you need to get off of your daddys computer and not tie up space in this news group dedicated to the ultra fit! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/. Although this is somewhat suggestive, it does NOT mean that secondhand smoke constitutes a danger. The issue here is that they’re measuring the output in terms of ug/cigarette, but what’s relevant is total intake into your lungs, which is much more difficult to measure. That said, this report is fairly loaded. The quotes for how dangerous the various chemicals are are quite misleading. While I’m sure taht some of these chemicals are quite toxic, let’s take a look at of them:        Acetone: "Workers exposed to acetone vapours experienced transient        eye and nose irritation." Acetone is widely used in nail polish remover. When I worked in a chemistry lab, we used to use squirt bottles of acetone to dry glassware.        Ammonia: "Ammonia can increase susceptibility to viral illness and        aggravate chronic respiratory conditions." Ammonia is a common kitchen cleaning agent. It’s one of the components of Windex. Note that both ammonia and acetone have quite noticeable smells, but you can’t smell either of them in cigarette smoke to any noticeable degree. I suspect you get FAR more exposure to ammonia when cleaning the kitchen. Remember, we’re talking about inhaling fumes here, not drinking it. Similarly, listing hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide is fairly misleading. They’re both quite toxic, but they’re acute toxins not cumulative toxins. So, if you’re not suffering ill effects immediately, you’re probably not going to. (They interfere with transport). There’s nowhere near enough in secondhand cigarette smoke to do you any damage at all. Your car puts out a lot more CO, for instance. Look, it’s perfectly clear that smoking is bad for you, but this sort of list of toxic chemical without any indication of the generally considered safe amount is just irresponsible. By constrast, it’s not clear that secondhand smoke is bad for you, and this doesn’t add anything to that debate either. -Ekr — [Eric Rescorla

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Question:

David – Has the HMO situation really gotten that bad?  My advice — seek and heed the advice of your cardiac specialist(s).  If (s)he cannot relate to your athletic endevours, find one who can.  Pay for the consultation out of your own pocket if need be.  But don’t guess about this issue! — Mark Fellow tri-geeks, I was a competitive triathlete until I discovered I had mitral valve regurgitation.

<snip

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Fellow tri-geeks, I was a competitive triathlete until I discovered I had mitral valve regurgitation. It is a heart condition that has prevented me from continuing in my highly torturous lifestyle. Recently on the 20th May 98, I went for mitral valve repair. Since then I have been recovering from that operation. My dream is the same as any triathlete. To finish the Hawaiian Ironman. That is my long-term goal. I was wondering anyone has any opinion regarding my dream and my heart condition. For now, I am starting to swim. Not much, just about 600 m per session. I was wondering whether it is wise for me to do so, considering that the sternum has not totally fused. One last request, is there any triathlete out there who has gone through some kind of cardiac operation and is currently training. I really need some advice and experience sharing. Thanks. David Leong

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Question:

Start with Runner Triathlete News, which lists races in the five-state area. Call the promoters in the Oklahoma City races, and get them to tell you about the clubs in the area. Runner-Triathlete News is online at http://www.runningnetwork.com/runtrinews/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First let me preface my post by saying I think you have a first rate ng going here.  I have been lurking for around two months and have been impressed with the knowledge and curteousy. That being said, in my lurking I have found that quite a few people seem to have benefitted from participating in local swimming, running, and biking clubs or programs.  I would like to participate in a local triathlon or two this year, but feel that I could learn quite a bit from one of these programs.  I will be moving to Oklahoma City in February. I’m transferring for work, a pilot in the Navy.  Join the Navy, see Oklahoma…..   Anyways, any info would be helpful.  I’ved already scoured the web.  Thanks in advance.  Any info on local events would also be appreciated. Bennet

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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First let me preface my post by saying I think you have a first rate ng going here.  I have been lurking for around two months and have been impressed with the knowledge and curteousy. That being said, in my lurking I have found that quite a few people seem to have benefitted from participating in local swimming, running, and biking clubs or programs.  I would like to participate in a local triathlon or two this year, but feel that I could learn quite a bit from one of these programs.  I will be moving to Oklahoma City in February. I’m transferring for work, a pilot in the Navy.  Join the Navy, see Oklahoma…..   Anyways, any info would be helpful.  I’ved already scoured the web.  Thanks in advance.  Any info on local events would also be appreciated. Bennet

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am a female runner. I have been running for about  8 years.   2 years ago I start racing (duathlons as well as road running races). I ran my first marathon in september (3:46). Since that time I am having back problem. I have been told that I have hernia disk causing nerve iritation (sciatica).  It started to feel like an hamstrings problems, turn into my left leg (shouting pain on the side) down to my ankle, when into my right leg as well and now it is getting in my neck. I have seen physios, chiros, doctors, rmt.  I am desesperate…… I love running and I want to be able to race again.  Right now I am all day and night in pain and I can only jog (10k max) every other day. Please somebody help me! Diane.

Diane, I am wondering if the diagnosis that you were given of a hernia disk has been confirmed by radiographs or an MRI.  The reason I ask is that I had similar symptoms that a PT helped me with that seemed to be attributed to a leg lenght discrepancy.  My problems were solved by having a lift added to my orthotic and by adding a pad on my cycling shoes between the cleats and sole on my short side.  Certainly these things would not work if a herniated disk is truly your problem, however, so it’s seems that getting s definitive diagnosis is imperative.  I went through a similar round of doctors, chiropractors, and a podiatrist without being able to get to the bottom of my problem.  The bike tech who did a fit for me first suggested this as a problem based on what he saw when doing the fit.  Ultimately a local PT who is a triathlete helped me solve the problem.   Just my $0.02 worth. Good luck. Lucy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am a female runner. I have been running for about  8 years.   2 years ago I start racing (duathlons as well as road running races). I ran my first marathon in september (3:46). Since that time I am having back problem. I have been told that I have hernia disk causing nerve iritation (sciatica).  It started to feel like an hamstrings problems, turn into my left leg (shouting pain on the side) down to my ankle, when into my right leg as well and now it is getting in my neck. I have seen physios, chiros, doctors, rmt.  I am desesperate…… I love running and I want to be able to race again.  Right now I am all day and night in pain and I can only jog (10k max) every other day. Please somebody help me! Diane. Diane, I am wondering if the diagnosis that you were given of a hernia disk has been confirmed by radiographs or an MRI.  The reason I ask is that I had similar symptoms that a PT helped me with that seemed to be attributed to a leg lenght discrepancy.  My problems were solved by having a lift added to my orthotic and by adding a pad on my cycling shoes between the cleats and sole on my short side.  Certainly these things would not work if a herniated disk is truly your problem, however, so it’s seems that getting s definitive diagnosis is imperative.  I went through a similar round of doctors, chiropractors, and a podiatrist without being able to get to the bottom of my problem.  The bike tech who did a fit for me first suggested this as a problem based on what he saw when doing the fit.  Ultimately a local PT who is a triathlete helped me solve the problem. Just my $0.02 worth. Good luck. Lucy

The only way to tell if you truly have a herniated disk is from a MRI. If you havent had one then it’s not conclusive. PDV

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Hi I am a female runner. I have been running for about  8 years.   2 years ago I start racing (duathlons as well as road running races). I ran my first marathon in september (3:46). Since that time I am having back problem. I have been told that I have hernia disk causing nerve iritation (sciatica).  It started to feel like an hamstrings problems, turn into my left leg (shouting pain on the side) down to my ankle, when into my right leg as well and now it is getting in my neck. I have seen physios, chiros, doctors, rmt.  I am desesperate…… I love running and I want to be able to race again.  Right now I am all day and night in pain and I can only jog (10k max) every other day. Please somebody help me! Diane.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am a female runner. I have been running for about  8 years.   2 years ago I start racing (duathlons as well as road running races). I ran my first marathon in september (3:46). Since that time I am having back problem. I have been told that I have hernia disk causing nerve iritation (sciatica).  It started to feel like an hamstrings problems, turn into my left leg (shouting pain on the side) down to my ankle, when into my right leg as well and now it is getting in my neck. I have seen physios, chiros, doctors, rmt.  I am desesperate…… I love running and I want to be able to race again.  Right now I am all day and night in pain and I can only jog (10k max) every other day. Please somebody help me! Diane.

I doubt that I can be of much help but do want you to know that I sympathize greatly. I have herniated disc in upper vertebrae that forced me into not running at all for a year and when I began to run again had to do very low mileage at very slow pace. It is now a year since I began again and things are going well though I’ve lowered my expectations somewhat. Herniated discs can be very serious and running is, unfortunately, one of the most aggravating things you can do to your spine so be careful and be patient. I am curious about what options your doctors have given you and what their recommendations are…Good luck….

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Question:

Performance wetsuits aren’t bad, IMHO, and are as cheap as new suits come. They only come sleeveless, and the collar on mine really chewed up my neck, but still a good starter suit.

Collar on mine is confortable as all get out. Brian "Aha, at last, another opportunity to be contrarian! but it’s STILL too constructive" Wagner

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Anu,  You might check out the O’Neil line of triathlon wetsuits. They are a good value. Not quite as high tech as the others but a good suit overall. I’ve used one for 3 years and have had no troubles. Or you could look for a used one at places like tribuy.com or here on this news group and get a better suit for the same money. Just make sure you get the right size. Fit is probably one of the most important factors. B.Oliver http://members.fortunecity.com/triathltb/thetriathlonandmultisportres… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -i need one that is really cheap (no jokes please. this hobby is getting expensive.) any suggestions? -anu

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Check out Performance suits at www.performancebike.com.  I’ve heard good reports about them and they are reasonably priced. If you plan to continue in the sport, laying out a couple of hundred bucks to get a good wetsuit is well worth it. Larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anu,  You might check out the O’Neil line of triathlon wetsuits.

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Performance wetsuits aren’t bad, IMHO, and are as cheap as new suits come. They only come sleeveless, and the collar on mine really chewed up my neck, but still a good starter suit. Scott "who hopes to get a VO2 stealthsuit for my b-day"Hoffman

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Check out Performance suits at www.performancebike.com.  I’ve heard good reports about them and they are reasonably priced.

Discontinued.  However, I already told Anu via email that they have been closing them out at less than $30, and may still be able to help you if you are one of a few sizes. Brian "DOH, I did it again – constructive advice" Wagner

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I am looking for a new wetsuit (a fullsuit). My teammates say that Ironman, Quintana Roo and Speedo are among the best ones available right now. Does anyone have good or bad experiences with any of these wetsuits? Cees

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AS promised, I will now badmouth Ironsuit. Their suits may be OK but they appear to be a pretty ignorant bunch to deal with. I’d suggest going for a QR. They’re arguably the best out there and they are an absolutely fantastic company to deal with. They CONTRIBUTE here on rst without the hardsell. Dan is great, QR is great, and their wetsuits are fantastic. Prices are at the high end (good stuff always is) but they are easily worth it. TriDork

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I can’t speak to the other suits, but I have been totally pleased with my two QR suits. Fast, warm and comfortable. Not a single problem, except that I get funny looks from the surfers on the beach when I head into the water looking like "rubberman" complete with that goofy QR swim cap. Brian Sullivan

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Question:

<computerless bicycle riding/racing thoughts deleted I concur.  I have not used a bike computer since, God knows when.   I have found that my cycling splits have improved with the absence of a computer, since I am focused on me, not on a set of numbers.   -Rolf —    Rolf "Ironman" Arands, Ph.D. (Chemical Engineering)   Dept. of Chem. and Biochem. Eng’g, Rutgers University  –These are my highly opinionated views, not Rutgers’–

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I often have trouble pushing myself to give it my all during races, as I like you find myself often holding back to be sure I finish comfortably. <snip I’ll give the same advice (lecture ?) that I used to give my swimmers. For most of us, the reason we hold back (or not push ourselves) is the fear of failing (i.e. not finishing, bonking and finishing poorly, …) What you need to do is pick some mid-season race and do it for "fun".  Fun was in double-quotes for a reason.  I mean the work-hard-have-fun in some convoluted Vince Lombardi/Mark Allen way.  In other words, change your race tactics…  Push the swim hard, hammer the bike and see just how you react during the run.  Conversely, maybe you want to save it for the run and then run like a gazelle for as long as you can. It is paramount that this be a non-critical race.  Don’t worry about placing, beating your friends etc…  This is experiment time.  Mark your race calendar early so this race all-of-a-sudden doesn’t become important.   You should definitely push yourself to new places (paces). Maybe you’ll blow-up, but just maybe you won’t.  GO FOR IT! Bottom line, save experimenting for non-critical races so you can race "tactically" in the more important ones. Pat —   W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_   Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /   cis:      72410,3372        /  

Pat, Thank you, that sounds like great advice. I’m already trying to decide when/what race to give this a try!  I will probably try it in a mid-season sprint as there is a series over a course that I have competed on a number of times before.  This will allow me to gage my time vs. past and/or future performances.  I’ll report back and let you know how it works. Now do you have any good advice for achieving such an effect during high intensity workouts??? Thanks again and Happy Training. Lucy

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I can tell you from experience that the opposite strategy is not a whole lot of a fun.  I’m usually in the top 10% in my age group in the swim, middle third on the bike, and bottom third on the run.  Needless to say, I rarely ever pass anyone in a triathlon!!  Now, where can I find a reverse order triathlon!

Cypress Gardens, Fl. Usually in April. (I know you were joking, but the race really is a  R B S format.) Mike Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Advertise your race. FTP Race Apps, FAQ http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

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Someone earlier made a comment on not racing with a computer anymore. I experienced computer failure in a race (alright, I mounted the wheel backwards after changing a flat, 15 minutes before race start) and therefore never knew how fast I went during the bike leg. I had one of my fastest bike splits!  I think psychologically, I am intimidated by speeds above 30kph and start to tell myself that being above that speed should hurt. Indeed, my avg. speed was 35 kph althought I felt great during the race. Even though I love numbers, I am going to try racing without a computer this year, providing the race course has distance markers to at least help gauge the effort, and go by how I feel (and my HRM, if it ever decides to work on the bike). CharlesV

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The same goes for swimming– where I swim right at my AT for the whole swim (now matter what the distance).  I could probably slow down 20-30 sec, save a lot of energy.  Would I recoupe the lost time in the run?  I don’t know.

A couple of years ago, I mentioned to a tri-friend that I had never done a triathlon in which, at some point, I didn’t want to get off the bike and walk home.  He suggested that I should not try to win the swim leg (as I had been doing).  That year, I just swam comfortably hard, still came out with the leaders (if not *at* the front), and got onto the bike feeling really fresh.  I had great bike legs in all the triathlons I did that year. Since the swim isn’t that important in triathlons, I think the key is to get out of the water as fresh as possible without giving up too much distance to the leaders (if your goal is to be a leader in your division). I’m cursious, how do people "plan" their various race paces or adjust them during the race?

This year (oops!  *last* year!) I tried keeping my heart rate within a certain range on the bike.  Unfortunately, each of the triathlons I did were on days with particulary nasty winds, so my heart was doing unusual things (e.g., six miles into a headwind, HR 5 beats above AT).  I try to keep my HR below AT if there are spots where I will need to work harder (hills, headwinds, etc.), so that I have some headroom to maintain speed without going anaerobic.  This worked really well at our district 40K TT:  I broke my PR by 1:20, averaged right at my AT, and didn’t feel exceptionally miserable. On the run:  I use experience to know how fast I can go for the whole distance, and I go that pace.  I use competitors in front or behind to motivate myself to pick it up the last mile or so.  I hate sprint finishes. Ken Lehner

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I have also developed a tactic which, while not really influencing my overall placing much, makes the races so much more enjoyable for me. All I do is take my time in the swim. That way I finish the swim way behind even slower racers than myself (and that’s pretty slow). From that point onward I get to pass dozens of others on bike and run. I have even had one race where I was not passed by a single person for the entire race after the swim. I get to spend the whole race reeling in others. God, I love this sport. Oh, that reminds me. I have to go log the swim workout I missed yesterday. Dave Aggett

Dave, sounds like my racing Actually I try to play a few tactics when I racing as well (I think we all do). Having a cycling background I love it when the cycling course has lots of hills and/or lots of corners and turn arounds. I find that triathletes that have not had a lot of cycling experience tend to get bogged down on the hills with too big a gear- same goes for turn arounds. I find I  can make up lost of time by having good turn arounds (I’ve done thousands of pylon turns from my TTT training) and acceleration out of the turn around. On a course with 3 loops (6 turns) you can make up a surprising amount of time. I other place I aim to make up time is cornering and the downhills. Practise and knowing your bike make the biggests differneces. My running tactics, attaack the hills and the most important ones… hang on, your almost done; you can’t drown on land cheers, jason  Jason MacDonald   Acadia University, Nova Scotia CANADA   ** Jason’s Triathlon Web Site  **                 ‘<,    ’ ,-  URL  http://dragon.acadiau.ca/~005963m/           (*)/(*) (*)/( )

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I can tell you from experience that the opposite strategy is not a whole lot of a fun.  I’m usually in the top 10% in my age group in the swim, middle third on the bike, and bottom third on the run.  Needless to say, I rarely ever pass anyone in a triathlon!!  Now, where can I find a reverse order triathlon!

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Good thread(s) A couple of thoughts.  I have picked up something from my son’s Jr. High cross country team:  In the last mile of a race, never let anyone pass you unchallenged.

snip Another more traditional view of racing from the running community is that an even pace throughout a race will generally yield a faster time than a strategy of easy then hard or some other combination.   One last little psychological game that I play, that has NO support in like to click to a higher gear right as I draw along.

snip Steve Rogers

I have also developed a tactic which, while not really influencing my overall placing much, makes the races so much more enjoyable for me. All I do is take my time in the swim. That way I finish the swim way behind even slower racers than myself (and that’s pretty slow). From that point onward I get to pass dozens of others on bike and run. I have even had one race where I was not passed by a single person for the entire race after the swim. I get to spend the whole race reeling in others. God, I love this sport. Oh, that reminds me. I have to go log the swim workout I missed yesterday. Dave Aggett

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Now that it is the off-season (at least in the U.S.), I was doing some reflecting upon seasons of past.  While there has been lots of discussion on r.s.t. about training, racing tactic type discussions have been noticeable absent.

I would hate to become a slave to my HRM but I definitely depend on it at this point. By occasionally performing Conconi Tests while biking and swimming, and having experimented during races and long training sessions, I feel I can pretty well rely on my Protrainer to keep me on track. I paid particular attention to my half way splits on run segments and though I haven’t managed t negative split yet, I am getting close and still have just enough steam to sprint the few hundred metres. Dave Aggett Dartmouth, Nova Scotia

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My best race was when I did not have any speedometer or HRM, and just went on feel.  I also started the bike a little easier, and tried to blast the first mile of the run all out.  My worst races have been when I told myself to blast the bike (my strength) from the start and wound up having to back off and getting myself mentally defeated before the run starts.   It may sound goofy, but when the going gets really tough, as I breathe out I let it turn into a low, soft growl, which slowly builds until it is quite audible, then I get a evil look on my face and pretend I am some sort of monster that thrives on pain, the more it hurts the better.  I keep telling myself more! more! more! (pain, that is).  I pick a point which I slightly doubt I can make it too before I will let myself let up, and then I go even further after that (more!).  I pretend that I am sitting in an electric chair with a dial, and I can turn the dial to whatever intesity of pain I want, but the person who has it the highest the longest wins (sort of like who can stay underwater the longest).  I keep asking myself "Can you turn it up another notch?  CAN YOU TAKE THE PAIN????" I have no idea why people call us masochists.  Save the flames. dan

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I often have trouble pushing myself to give it my all during races, as I like you find myself often holding back to be sure I finish comfortably.

<snip I’ll give the same advice (lecture ?) that I used to give my swimmers. For most of us, the reason we hold back (or not push ourselves) is the fear of failing (i.e. not finishing, bonking and finishing poorly, …) What you need to do is pick some mid-season race and do it for "fun".  Fun was in double-quotes for a reason.  I mean the work-hard-have-fun in some convoluted Vince Lombardi/Mark Allen way.  In other words, change your race tactics…  Push the swim hard, hammer the bike and see just how you react during the run.  Conversely, maybe you want to save it for the run and then run like a gazelle for as long as you can. It is paramount that this be a non-critical race.  Don’t worry about placing, beating your friends etc…  This is experiment time.  Mark your race calendar early so this race all-of-a-sudden doesn’t become important.   You should definitely push yourself to new places (paces). Maybe you’ll blow-up, but just maybe you won’t.  GO FOR IT! Bottom line, save experimenting for non-critical races so you can race "tactically" in the more important ones. Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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I I’m curious how people try and pace themselves (through the whole tri, not just each event).  What works, what doesn’t. Are there any mental games that seem to work?

 with distance I’m just a mid-packer, but I’ve found that if I’ve trained well enough that i don’t get into the spontaneous human combustible pace that you mention.  I will just play with it. What I do find beneficial though is, during the last mile or so of the race when I’m really hurting and really trying to push for the finish to look at the person in front of me and remind myself that he isn’t any faster or stronger tha I am or he would already be finished. At htis point I make it my job to take away his finishing place because i know that he is hurting as much as I am. The only difference is that I don’t care.  It’s only pain and it will all stop as soon as I cross thast line —in front of him.

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   Since aerodynamic resistance (and thus req’d power output?) increases as the square of velocity, a modest reduction in speed can allow a significant reduction in effort/lactic accumulation. At least, that’s my theory. (And I’m sticking to it. Until the next post at least.) I did make an effort to test this somewhat in later races and it did seem to yield much faster (and more comfortable!) runs. And surprisingly, my bike times were still pretty solid, not seeming to suffer much if at all for the easing off.    Anyone else been helped in the run by backing off on the bike?

Last year’s fun race for me was Wendy’s (Ohio).  It seemed the only way to be able to try something different was to remove myself from my "standard" competitors so I wouldn’t have a lot of pressure (to revert to my normal race plan). I swam somewhere around 70-80% effort.  I was still in contact with the lead group, but the swim leader was off-the-front.  This made it hard to slow down on the bike.  I settled into a low-26 mph pace.  Then Paul Barrford (sp? also an RSTer and eventual winner) came blasting past me. This motivated me to up my speed to the mid-26 mph range.  The run for me went surprisingly well.  I actually passed a few people (only one in my age group– the swimmer who went off the front) and felt strong– maybe too strong?  I was definitely amazed at how well this worked.   Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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I use some manta, like "smooth," or "glide" which I say frequently to stay in control. While trying to maintain form and control, I strive to constantly accellerate. (sp?)  This is often not possible, but try to slowly build pace throughout each leg. Gives me a feeling of confidence. I don’t mean starting out really slow and finishing hard. Rather, run 7:10, 7:10, 7:05, 7:02, 6:58; 6:55 and then run like hell to the finish. My best times always come from this kind of increasing pace. When it goes the other way around, or I run the same time throughout, it always wind up with a slower total time. Brian Sullivan

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Pat Brug writes: I’m curious how people try and pace themselves (through the whole tri, not just each event).  What works, what doesn’t.

Have a good swim and get out of the water in good position.  HAMMER the bike, hold on during the run.   How does your race strategy vary with distance?

In short races, i.e. olympic or less, food is not important for me as the amount of time I’m out there is only 1-2.5 hours in the best/worse case.  Also, short races need FAST transitions.  Practice these and take a minute or two off your time. Look at the transition times of the top ten and the difference in time with respect to places and this makes sense.  For longer distances, it is VITAL that you eat and drink plenty on the bike because you just can’t take in that much during a 1/2 marathon or longer. Craig

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I am a runner by trade.  My swimming sucks, and my cycling is mediocre (no 27 MPH averages here).  For me to have a good race, therefore, I must stay right at AT in the first two disciplines so that I can hammer the run. I have found over my 4 years of participating in multi-sports that the most critical aspect of training to achieve this is mind- numbing, cardiovascular strength.  This is instilled by a weekly 80-100 mile ride in the Bay Area hills and a weekly 14-18 mile run in the Bay Area hills.  Pat Brug has said it in the past, and I certainly echo it – work the hills, the flats will seem like a piece of cake afterwords. Of course, I mix in a weekly interval session in both disciplines, along with some tempo work.  The usual masters swimming workouts round out the rest of my copious free time. By developing such cardiovascular strength, I am able to pursue the following race tactic for international distance races: AT my way through the first two disciplines and then be able to complete the 10K within 60 seconds of my fresh 10K time – i.e. average 10 seconds per mile slower after the first two legs.  I’m not always successful, sometimes dropping up to 15 seconds per mile, but the cardio strength really pays off.  Given that I’ve been a competitive runner for over 25 years, this usually results in a last leg split that is in the top 5-10% of the entire field, even though I’m one of the over 40 gang. As a competitive runner for a quarter century, I’ve learned that when you pass someone, whether on the bike or run, you’ve simply got to make it stick.  The worst thing you can do is to let them catch up to you again, or worse yet, to pass you back.  By doing so, you’ve not only given the competitor a mental advantage, but you’ve just knocked out a big chunk of your self confidence.  Just think how you feel when someone goes by you looking fresh and confident. This is not helped so much by cardio strength, but by tenaciously doing intervals – i.e. training your body to flush accumulated lactic acid.  Sure, doing intervals helps raise your AT over time, but they also prepare you for brief accumulations of lactic acid without you going completely anaerobic; this permits you to surge by your competition without committing suicide. One last observation that is causing me to look at some different race tactics – I’ve discovered in duathlons that I can go significantly anaerobic in the first run and still be able to recover on the bike leg.  At first blush, this seems against all of the common wisdom.  But I have noticed that I can run the first 5k right at my fresh 5k time and still be able to cycle along at 22-24 mph and run the second 5k within 30 seconds of my fresh 5k time. If I am able to schedule a sprint tri this year, I will try sprinting (for me) the swim, relying upon recovery on the bike leg.  If this works, it should substantially improve my race results. Joe Sventek

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First, the shorter the race, the longer the warmup!  For sprint races I’ll warmup for 30-45 minutes, Olympic races 20-30 minutes, and anything longer I’ll just ride my bike to check out its gears and swim a little. I usually eat a PowerBar 2 hours before the start and swig Cytomax or Exceed during my warmup.  I like to get to the scene early so I can relax before the start and avoid the lengthy portajohn lines. For sprint races I’m usually racing almost flat out, flat out being the point that your heart starts to ride up into your throat 8^).  I frequently stand up on the bike to accelerate and run like it’s the last quarter mile interval of a track workout. For Olympic distance races, I usually try to "build up" my effort during each leg.  That is, I’ll start out at a relatively comfortable pace and then slowly increase my effort until I’m going almost all out at the end of the leg.  This usually means I get dropped at the beginning of most swim starts and lose some ground coming out of the transitions, but I’m usually passing people after the 1/3 to 1/2-way point.  Also, by easing into the bike and run, I find I am able to control my breathing and stretch out my legs better than if I just started hammering at my goal pace.  I try not to stand as much on the bike and save the really hard running for the last two miles. For long distance races I’m usually just surviving since I don’t really train for them.  I swim at a comfortable pace (sightseeing is more like it!), try and minimize standing and high gear ratios on the bike, and just try to stay relaxed and smooth on the run. I just started racing with a HR monitor last year and found its useful to judge what kind of shape I’m in.  When I’m sick or tired, I feel like I’m moving as fast as I can with a HR of 165-170.  When I’m well rested and well trained, I can keep my HR around 175-185 easily and feel light on my feet. Todd Jensen                                   o AT&T Bell Labs              ___^o_    __o    <| Naperville, IL                      _ <_    _

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My problem (?) is that I wonder if I’m too aggressive on the bike.  I generally can average in the 27 mph range and if anyone challenges me, then I really let go.  Subsequently, I have a relatively slow run (the infamous 4 minute 10K differential as exemplified by a previous thread).

   Holy smokes! 27 mph? Avg? You rock, dude! Seriously, I do pretty well on the bike, often having bike leg placings far above my overall, and I don’t know that I’ve ever avg’d better than 23-24 in a race. And I just read that it isn’t exactly flat where you are! Sheesh, who needs run training when you’ve got a bike leg like that?! The same goes for swimming– where I swim right at my AT for the whole swim (no matter what the distance).  I could probably slow down 20-30 sec, save a lot of energy.  Would I recoupe the lost time in the run?  I don’t know.

   This would never work for me. The faster I can force myself to go in the water, the better off I am. Early on, a full-effort swim would take something away from my bike, but this seems to be less the case as time and training progress. However, I tried something different last year.  I descended each leg (by perceived effort).  This seemed to work well and a set a few PR’s and I definitely finished strong.

   I do more or less the same. I’m no swimmer, so I just try to give it a solid, earnest effort. I can blast on the bike , but have found it prudent to push just shy of that Jordanesque panting stage, any harder brings very slow run times. Then I go fast (for me) and steady for 3/4 of the run course, and give it whatever I’ve got left from there.    I think I finally learned at Wildflower last year that hammering the bike hard just isn’t smart for me. I got caught up with another rider whose pace was quite fast but comfortable for me, and I think I paid for that during the last half of the run. Lesson: Comfortable club ride pace does not leave enough for a respectable run afterwards. Hint: Maybe I’ll try a run brick after some of those club rides this season?    Since aerodynamic resistance (and thus req’d power output?) increases as the square of velocity, a modest reduction in speed can allow a significant reduction in effort/lactic accumulation. At least, that’s my theory. (And I’m sticking to it. Until the next post at least.) I did make an effort to test this somewhat in later races and it did seem to yield much faster (and more comfortable!) runs. And surprisingly, my bike times were still pretty solid, not seeming to suffer much if at all for the easing off.    Anyone else been helped in the run by backing off on the bike? I’m curious, how do people "plan" their various race paces or adjust them during the race?

I just try to estimate what I think I can maintain. Basically following the earlier runner-type philosophy that a constant pace is best. Not that I’m particularly good at following my own advice! Great thread, thanks Pat. Kurian Davis

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My problem (?) is that I wonder if I’m too aggressive on the bike.  I generally can average in the 27 mph range and if anyone challenges me, then I really let go.  Subsequently, I have a relatively slow run (the infamous 4 minute 10K differential as exemplified by a previous thread). The same goes for swimming– where I swim right at my AT for the whole swim (now matter what the distance).  I could probably slow down 20-30 sec, save a lot of energy.  Would I recoupe the lost time in the run?  I don’t know. Another more traditional view of racing from the running community is that an even pace throughout a race will generally yield a faster time than a strategy of easy then hard or some other combination.  

This is probably true for the whole triathlon as well. However, I tried something different last year.  I descended each leg (by perceived effort).  This seemed to work well and a set a few PR’s and I definitely finished strong.  OBTW, I don’t use a HRM when I race, nor do I use a speedometer.  A few years ago, I found myself concentrating more on digital readouts, than the race itself– with predictably poor results. I’m cursious, how do people "plan" their various race paces or adjust them during the race? Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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Good thread(s) A couple of thoughts.  I have picked up something from my son’s Jr. High cross country team:  In the last mile of a race, never let anyone pass you unchallenged.  I have been on both sides of this, as a passer and as a passee.  Many times the passer is looking to demoralize and hopes that the passee will quit.  As a passee, it helps to latch onto a shoulder for a "pull" (run draft?  oops!). Another more traditional view of racing from the running community is that an even pace throughout a race will generally yield a faster time than a strategy of easy then hard or some other combination.   One last little psychological game that I play, that has NO support in like to click to a higher gear right as I draw along.  The message I want to give is that I’m feeling strong as evidenced by the audible click of the shifters.  Don’t know how others feel when I do it, but its a big lift for me. Steve Rogers

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Good thread(s): I think I am one of those people who always try to plan out a whole race before it happens.  Of course, things never work out the way that I think they will, but I keep on trying.  I am one of those geeks who has to have his HRM and his speedometer to refer to, and I am probably too much of a slave to them.  This year I’m going to try to focus more on how I feel, and worry about the numbers later.  I’ve had races where I’ve held back (esp. on the bike) at certain points out of "prudence," and later regretted it.  Sometimes you have to just forge ahead with a certain pace, and find out whether or not you can hold it. Prior to the start I try to think about all the training I’ve put in and all the sacrifices I’ve made to get to the starting line.  I especially like to think about all those really shitty, miserable workouts I endured in the winter.  The thought of all those hours on the trainer usually makes me want to get out and show what I’ve accomplished.  When I get into really painful stretches on the run I try to think about how hard I have already fought to get where I am in the race, and how I owe it to myself not to squander the good time I have already estasblished.  Of course, it really helps if you see someone you know, and can try to go after him. Steve Irish

Steve, I often have trouble pushing myself to give it my all during races, as I like you find myself often holding back to be sure I finish comfortably. I’m really training hard this winter and am hoping for a break through in performance this coming season.  Like you said enduring those winter workouts, especially when the season seems so far away, is hard. I am definitely going to try your tactic of reminding myself of these sacrifices and I’m betting that it will help me push myself.  It sounds like great advice. The one thing that I have found which works for me when the going gets tough and also that I use to push myself harder is that I focus to trying to catch the person in front of me or trying to stay with the person who has just passed me.  Although, I’m really only competing against myself out there, I find this technique helps me to push a little harder when my body says no. I’m curious to hear what others use to motativate themselves to bust it during a race.  Any comments or thoughts out there? Lucy

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Good thread(s): I think I am one of those people who always try to plan out a whole race before it happens.  Of course, things never work out the way that I think they will, but I keep on trying.  I am one of those geeks who has to have his HRM and his speedometer to refer to, and I am probably too much of a slave to them.  This year I’m going to try to focus more on how I feel, and worry about the numbers later.  I’ve had races where I’ve held back (esp. on the bike) at certain points out of "prudence," and later regretted it.  Sometimes you have to just forge ahead with a certain pace, and find out whether or not you can hold it. Prior to the start I try to think about all the training I’ve put in and all the sacrifices I’ve made to get to the starting line.  I especially like to think about all those really shitty, miserable workouts I endured in the winter.  The thought of all those hours on the trainer usually makes me want to get out and show what I’ve accomplished.  When I get into really painful stretches on the run I try to think about how hard I have already fought to get where I am in the race, and how I owe it to myself not to squander the good time I have already estasblished.  Of course, it really helps if you see someone you know, and can try to go after him. Steve Irish

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Now that it is the off-season (at least in the U.S.), I was doing some reflecting upon seasons of past.  While there has been lots of discussion on r.s.t. about training, racing tactic type discussions have been noticeable absent. I firmly believe, no matter how fast you are, how many years experience you have, everyone fights-wins-loses personnal battles during every race. I’m also confident that every rst’er has a racing tip (whether they know it or not) that many of us would find useful. I’m curious how people try and pace themselves (through the whole tri, not just each event).  What works, what doesn’t. Are there any mental games that seem to work? I’m sure everyone has come to some point in a race where they are at the "back-off-this-pace-or-die" feeling.  How do people handle this? How hard can people bike and still run reasonably well (yet another pacing question) ? How does your race strategy vary with distance? There are probably a million permutations of these.  Answer any of the above or come up with your own.  Come on r.s.t., inquirying minds want to know ! Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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