Question:

I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I

BIG SNIP time of 13:22. My broken pelvis slowed me slighlty, but I thought it was just REALLY REALLY bad saddle sore.

This has to be one of the best quotes I have ever seen posted here. "My broken pelvis slowed me slighlty, but…" Jeesus! Hard core. Phil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you wanna finish…..7 hours per week will work…..JUST. If you wanna have a good experience (or at least better) then 15 hours per week is probably a good idea, along with nutritional practice, and a real bike. — TTFN TriDork ALWAYS have a "Plan B"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you joking? What do you mean when you say "front of the pack". The 10 guys at IMH who actually do train those crazy hours. The (very limited # of) guys for whom an 8-something hour race is standard operating procedure? The thread originated by someone asking for minimal time needed to finish an IM…not what consitutes normal training for a very small bunch of people… 1200 hours/year is more than sufficient for enabling a triathlete to finish in the front of the pack, not just finish…in fact, you’ll probably find that many fast ironman triathletes (even pros) don’t train anywhere near that amount…and most of those 300-400 mile weeks you hear about are for a few weeks (to ramp up), not for the entire year…and even those people take a month or two off each year… Somebody help me out here! There’s probably about 1,200 hours difference between what’s required for a Front-of-Pack finish, and a finish. — Mark

Let me help….   1200 – 0 = 1200 difference between Front of Pack and the finisher staggering in 4 hours before the sun comes up on the day after.  It was tongue-in-cheek —  apparently too tongue-in-cheek  :) My guess would be (although I have absolutely zero basis for this guess) that the top 10 or 20 finishers in the WTC IMs train 1200 and up.  But who really knows?  What’s training time, what’s shower time, and what’s ’stop for a coldie’ time?  1200 hours in Zone 5 HR?  Not likely. — Mark

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Exactly. I just wonder who is out there training 1200 hours/year?! That’s crazy. That’s over 20 hours/week all year long (w/no time off). That’s absurd. Most pros probably don’t train that much. Half that isn’t even necessary. Joel Friel probably knows a lot about training/racing, but with someone like that telling people they’ll have to train 600-1200 hours/year for an Ironman, it’s a wonder anyone even bothers to sign up for an IM… A side note: Joel Friel in the Inside Triathlon Training Diary suggests that IM athletes train 600-1200 hours a year (versus 400-600 hours a year for International distance racing).  I’m proof that this isn’t necessary (unless you are interested in better finishing times, as I am, hence my increasing training hours). Hope this helps. –Lee Crumbaugh (Tri-Hard)

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I love that question…I hardly train…I am not pro…I think you can do an IM with mostly your mind.  I’ve done three in the last 6 years and each time I have improved my time by just being smarter and training less.  You can complete and IM, you won’t be on the winner’s block, but you will have all the feelings and emotions that are part of crossing that finish line!

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I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours

snip Torsten Minimums? You want Minimums?! I have done 3 IM to date (still can’t kick the habit) For my first IM I ( and everyone else) had no idea what I was getting into so I trained all the time I had available. This turned out to be about 15 hours per week. I managed 14:16 on the worlds easiest IM course in Montreal Canada ‘95. For my second IM in New Zealand ‘98, I Knew more and trained less but better and on the actual course. This worked out to about 7-8 hours most weeks and 10 or slightly more for a BIG week With this training I suffered (mainly due to the killer course and monster winds on the day) for 15:15, wishing I had taken up tennis. For my last IMNZ’00, I trained more, 10-20 hours per week) occasionally on the new IMNZ course, and better quality. I narrowly missed the nutritional part this time and suffered horribly on the run for a final time of 13:22. My broken pelvis slowed me slighlty, but I thought it was just REALLY REALLY bad saddle sore. If you wanna finish…..7 hours per week will work…..JUST. If you wanna have a good experience (or at least better) then 15 hours per week is probably a good idea, along with nutritional practice, and a real bike. — TTFN TriDork ALWAYS have a "Plan B"

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No, I know of people who train 20-25 hours/week (for IM anyway, i hope not for OD and sprints!)…all I’m saying is that people have to realize that it’s not always necessary. In fact, I think it’s ridiculous/overkill…I think it actually works against most people…It’s too bad that those who are new to the sport get discouraged by all this talk of 25 hour training weeks. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong w/training 25 hours/week – i wish I could do that! Talent or no talent, i think under 500 hours/week can get anyone to the IM finish line…(so long as the quality training is there). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as the origanal topic (minimal training for an IM) I am sure it can be done on the 5-10 hours a week people mention.  However your comments seem to indicate you believe only the top 10 finishers at IMH are training 1200 hours a year, you are mistaken.  I think you would be very surprised at how many decent age groupers train this much.  Many people I know and have known over the years train this much for Tri’s or for just Mountain bike or road racing. 20-25 hours a week of training is what it takes for the born talentless to be competitive for at least one person I know.  I think you are correct in saying smoe pros don’t train this much, this is due to talent.  Of course guys like Tinley used to train 40+ hours a week. Tim buaidh no bas

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you joking? What do you mean when you say "front of the pack". The 10 guys at IMH who actually do train those crazy hours. The (very limited # of) guys for whom an 8-something hour race is standard operating procedure? The thread originated by someone asking for minimal time needed to finish an IM…not what consitutes normal training for a very small bunch of people… 1200 hours/year is more than sufficient for enabling a triathlete to finish in the front of the pack, not just finish…in fact, you’ll probably find that many fast ironman triathletes (even pros) don’t train anywhere near that amount…and most of those 300-400 mile weeks you hear about are for a few weeks (to ramp up), not for the entire year…and even those people take a month or two off each year… Somebody help me out here!

As far as the origanal topic (minimal training for an IM) I am sure it can be done on the 5-10 hours a week people mention.  However your comments seem to indicate you believe only the top 10 finishers at IMH are training 1200 hours a year, you are mistaken.  I think you would be very surprised at how many decent age groupers train this much.  Many people I know and have known over the years train this much for Tri’s or for just Mountain bike or road racing.  20-25 hours a week of training is what it takes for the born talentless to be competitive for at least one person I know.  I think you are correct in saying smoe pros don’t train this much, this is due to talent.  Of course guys like Tinley used to train 40+ hours a week. Tim buaidh no bas

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Heh heh… (it was an errant select/delete…sorry about that) Hey nitz, you have my name there at the top but nothing posted by me in your quote! Phil

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I’d agree w/that… I’d be willing to bet that there’s not a significant difference in the actual number of hours put in by the 12 hour finisher and the 16 hour finisher. But the pace and intensity will be quite different. It’s the quality, not the quantity. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 Great Floridian ‘99, ‘00

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you joking? What do you mean when you say "front of the pack". The 10 guys at IMH who actually do train those crazy hours. The (very limited # of) guys for whom an 8-something hour race is standard operating procedure? The thread originated by someone asking for minimal time needed to finish an IM…not what consitutes normal training for a very small bunch of people… 1200 hours/year is more than sufficient for enabling a triathlete to finish in the front of the pack, not just finish…in fact, you’ll probably find that many fast ironman triathletes (even pros) don’t train anywhere near that amount…and most of those 300-400 mile weeks you hear about are for a few weeks (to ramp up), not for the entire year…and even those people take a month or two off each year… Somebody help me out here!

I’d be willing to bet that there’s not a significant difference in the actual number of hours put in by the 12 hour finisher and the 16 hour finisher. But the pace and intensity will be quite different. It’s the quality, not the quantity. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 Great Floridian ‘99, ‘00

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Hey nitz, you have my name there at the top but nothing posted by me in your quote! Phil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you joking? What do you mean when you say "front of the pack". The 10 guys at IMH who actually do train those crazy hours. The (very limited # of) guys for whom an 8-something hour race is standard operating procedure? The thread originated by someone asking for minimal time needed to finish an IM…not what consitutes normal training for a very small bunch of people… 1200 hours/year is more than sufficient for enabling a triathlete to finish in the front of the pack, not just finish…in fact, you’ll probably find that many fast ironman triathletes (even pros) don’t train anywhere near that amount…and most of those 300-400 mile weeks you hear about are for a few weeks (to ramp up), not for the entire year…and even those people take a month or two off each year… Somebody help me out here! There’s probably about 1,200 hours difference between what’s required for a Front-of-Pack finish, and a finish. — Mark

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oh, and switching from your mtn bike to a road with aerobars will make a big diff. i would guess the biggest difference (coming from slicks) would be the addition of the aerobars to set your body position, followed by the more aero tires and lastly themore aero frame (least difference). arguments could be made for more stable handling of a road bike, but over the course of hours, this is overwhelmed by aerodynamics.

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I’ve done 2 ironman races (‘98 and ‘99). I started triathlons in 1997. I’m 27 years old. Most races I do are sprints and ODs. In ‘99, I did IMH on 12-15 hours/week of training/week. I had a full time job (45 hours/week or so). For much of the spring/summer (i don’t do much in the winter, maybe 5 hours/week) I train about 10 hours/week. For Hawaii, I did 12-15 hours/week for about 5-6 weeks before a 2 week taper. The key workouts for me were rides/runs on the weekends. My rides ranged from 4 to 6 hours (I think I did two ~100+ mile rides total), and my runs were between 1 1/2 and 2 1/4 hours  (one run over 2 hours).

Our hours are about the same. The intensity is different – probably because of age differences (I’m 53) and goals (I’m slow.) <g I’m more relaxed on the longer stuff but really try to hammer the mid-week rides. I don’t hammer runs anymore (of any distance) because injuries and overuse show up quickly if I do. 12-15 hours sounds about right for late season peaking, with 10 being the standard for most of the summer. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 Great Floridian ‘99, ‘00

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I’ve been a triathlete since 1991 and have done 50 plus tris, plus 5Ks, marathons, etc. Since 1997 I’ve been training for IM races and did my first in 1998 (Vineman). Since then I have done IM Canada twice.  I’m 53 and have a history as a slow cross country runner in high school and then a competitive ice speedskater before I started triathlon. Here are my actual training hours for 1997 through 2000:      1997     254 hours      1998     300 hours      1999     333 hours      2000     398 hours I’ve recently added regular master’s swim workouts so I may even hit 500 hours this year. Oh yeah, I’m an executive who works long weeks, has morning and evening meetings, am an active community volunteer and sing in the church choir. I did Vineman in 14.08, and my IM Canada times have been 13:50 and 14:13 (really tough conditions!). So I’m proof that you can have a life and do relatively decently in IM racing. With my training level my times are still coming down, so I fully expect to improve at IM Canada this year, condidions allowing. When do I train?  Most mornings early.  Some evenings.  And I save the long stuff for weekends. As some else in this thread said, the long stuff is most important for finishing IM races.  I would add that longer bricks help you improve your times. A side note: Joel Friel in the Inside Triathlon Training Diary suggests that IM athletes train 600-1200 hours a year (versus 400-600 hours a year for International distance racing).  I’m proof that this isn’t necessary (unless you are interested in better finishing times, as I am, hence my increasing training hours). Hope this helps. –Lee Crumbaugh (Tri-Hard) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours. As I asume it depends highly on the basic fitnesslevel one has, here are some information about me: Age 28, did last year one Marathon (5 hours/mountain) and one Short Distance Tri (3:04 / bike was done on MTB), main sport basketball one or two times a week training, will not be stopped for triathlon training (maybe the week prior to race). Right now I am working 1 hour on swimming technique, and do a short run (5km) and long bike (3 hours) or long run (20 km) and short bike (1hour) per week. I also wondered about the speed-gain from switching from MTB (already equipped with slicks) to a road/tri bike. Thanks for your opinions, I hope my english was not too terrible. You may answer in German too. Torsten

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Are you joking? What do you mean when you say "front of the pack". The 10 guys at IMH who actually do train those crazy hours. The (very limited # of) guys for whom an 8-something hour race is standard operating procedure? The thread originated by someone asking for minimal time needed to finish an IM…not what consitutes normal training for a very small bunch of people… 1200 hours/year is more than sufficient for enabling a triathlete to finish in the front of the pack, not just finish…in fact, you’ll probably find that many fast ironman triathletes (even pros) don’t train anywhere near that amount…and most of those 300-400 mile weeks you hear about are for a few weeks (to ramp up), not for the entire year…and even those people take a month or two off each year… Somebody help me out here! There’s probably about 1,200 hours difference between what’s required for a Front-of-Pack finish, and a finish. — Mark

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Exactly. I just wonder who is out there training 1200 hours/year?! That’s crazy. That’s over 20 hours/week all year long (w/no time off). That’s absurd. Most pros probably don’t train that much. Half that isn’t even necessary. Joel Friel probably knows a lot about training/racing, but with someone like that telling people they’ll have to train 600-1200 hours/year for an Ironman, it’s a wonder anyone even bothers to sign up for an IM…

There’s probably about 1,200 hours difference between what’s required for a Front-of-Pack finish, and a finish. — Mark

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SNIP to train 600-1200 hours/year for an Ironman, it’s a wonder anyone even bothers to sign up for an IM… There’s probably about 1,200 hours difference between what’s required for a Front-of-Pack finish, and a finish. — Mark

Ain’t that the truth? If the Germans do what 300-400 miles a week on the bike, assuming what 22 mph? That’s up 18 hours just on the bike. Phil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours. As I asume it depends highly on the basic fitnesslevel one has, here are some information about me: Age 28, did last year one Marathon (5 hours/mountain) and one Short Distance Tri (3:04 / bike was done on MTB), main sport basketball one or two times a week training, will not be stopped for triathlon training (maybe the week prior to race). Right now I am working 1 hour on swimming technique, and do a short run (5km) and long bike (3 hours) or long run (20 km) and short bike (1hour) per week. I also wondered about the speed-gain from switching from MTB (already equipped with slicks) to a road/tri bike. Thanks for your opinions, I hope my english was not too terrible. You may answer in German too. Torsten

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Hi Torsten, I have a job, a life and you have about my time on an Olympic. My life is not mainly focussedc around triathlon, but sustainably intertwined to it.  I’m almost 40, started tris in 1997, trained about 8-12 hrs/week last year (starting early Dec 1999), of which 40% bike, 20% run, 20% swim, 10% strength/stretch. Lots of bike commuting, 35-40 min session for a 9 miles commute, once/twice a day, 4-5 days/week, sometimes followed or preceeded by a 20-30 min run. Finished my first IM Lake Placid 2000 in 15:02 (1:40 swim, 7:30 bike, 5:30 run), sprinting at the finish and in control. Nutrition and hydration were tuned in training (3-5 hrs duathlons on weekends) and carefully executed at IM. I did well mostly on a lot of gatorade, a few gels, a couple of bars. Got a huge kick out of it and a nice finish shot to look at and verify that the guy in the picture it’s really me. I had 4 Half-Irons in my bag before IM, and a few Olympics. Some tips: – get a road bike with an aerobar and an aerobottle and get used to it – you’ll be out there 14-16 hrs (btw, close to the cutoff of 17 hrs) so   spread your workouts to 2-3 times throughout the day to raise your   methabolic rate and get your body used to work all day long at   low/medium intensity – learn your nutrition/hydration needs and practice them religiously: in   an IM they are as critical as technique in the three sports – ask yourself now if you _really_ want to do an IM, because at the start of   the run and way into it, the sirens of fatigue will start singing, and if   you stop, the mere thought of it, after all the investement, will haunt you   forever — only your steadfast motivation can get you through at those times – your long run is fine, use a camelback to hydrate with iced carbodrink   about every 10 min, the time it takes to go from one waterstation to   another (1 mile apart), throw in a gel every 10-15 min. – combine long bike/runs (3-5 hrs): it beats the boredom and gets you used to   transitions, hydrate every 5min on the bike – what I told you would be most effective if you had already a plan and knew   more about triathlon.  Your "minimal" training is way below what I   consider minimal for IM.  Could you survive and finish an IM? As of   now, I’d say: "Maybe".  IM is a huge time, money and emotional   investment anyway, however "minimal" you want to make it, and I   suggest you get to know triathlon better by reading some of the good   books around (Joe Friel’s or Sleamaker and Browning’s, for istance)   while committing your resources to a larger training volume — you   don’t want to stay "minimal" and fail, do you good luck roberto – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours. As I asume it depends highly on the basic fitnesslevel one has, here are some information about me: Age 28, did last year one Marathon (5 hours/mountain) and one Short Distance Tri (3:04 / bike was done on MTB), main sport basketball one or two times a week training, will not be stopped for triathlon training (maybe the week prior to race). Right now I am working 1 hour on swimming technique, and do a short run (5km) and long bike (3 hours) or long run (20 km) and short bike (1hour) per week. I also wondered about the speed-gain from switching from MTB (already equipped with slicks) to a road/tri bike. Thanks for your opinions, I hope my english was not too terrible. You may answer in German too. Torsten

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you train about the same amount i did for my first half im. listen to the nutrition/hydration talk! i thought i listened, but hadn’t the benefit of training in race conditions (hotter than expected). i was 30 minutes ahead of my goal pace off the bike and feeling great (or so i thought). my legs felt heavy off the bike (nothing unexpected), but i noticed about a half mile into the run, that i was no longer sweating (and it was 90 degrees out)… oops.  i thought i had taken in plenty of fluids, but somehow hadn’t. luckily, half-vineman has a rest-stop EVERY mile on the run course; and i walked through every one of them taking in almost everything they had to offer well, after being 30 minutes ahead of my pace entering the run, i finshed in 5:36 (6 minutes off my goal), but was ecstatic to have finished considering i was in such poor shape entering the run. i’ve never done a full im, but would imagine you would need to add a few sessions where you are active for longer than your current sessions. not every week, but maybe every other, combine your long run and bike (but take them easy to start). best of luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours. As I asume it depends highly on the basic fitnesslevel one has, here are some information about me: Age 28, did last year one Marathon (5 hours/mountain) and one Short Distance Tri (3:04 / bike was done on MTB), main sport basketball one or two times a week training, will not be stopped for triathlon training (maybe the week prior to race). Right now I am working 1 hour on swimming technique, and do a short run (5km) and long bike (3 hours) or long run (20 km) and short bike (1hour) per week. I also wondered about the speed-gain from switching from MTB (already equipped with slicks) to a road/tri bike. Thanks for your opinions, I hope my english was not too terrible. You may answer in German too. Torsten

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Most people either exaggerate their training hours, or they overtrain. In order to finish an ironman, you really don’t need to train much more than you do for shorter races, you just need to do your key workouts (long rides/runs on the weekends) and have a base level of fitness that allows you to do the longer rides/runs. I’ve done 2 ironman races (‘98 and ‘99). I started triathlons in 1997. I’m 27 years old. Most races I do are sprints and ODs. In ‘99, I did IMH on 12-15 hours/week of training/week. I had a full time job (45 hours/week or so). For much of the spring/summer (i don’t do much in the winter, maybe 5 hours/week) I train about 10 hours/week. For Hawaii, I did 12-15 hours/week for about 5-6 weeks before a 2 week taper. The key workouts for me were rides/runs on the weekends. My rides ranged from 4 to 6 hours (I think I did two ~100+ mile rides total), and my runs were between 1 1/2 and 2 1/4 hours  (one run over 2 hours). It’s important that you focus on quality (even for the long rides – spinning for 6 hours is useless – you should ride pretty hard, off and on). Swimming, running and biking during the week are more or less for maintenance when you work full time, although it’s good to get in some speedwork when you can find the time. Like you, I’m perplexed when people talk about how many hours they train. It seems many age-groupers are essentially pros who live off trust funds, or they’re masochistic and pay no attention to life outside of triathlon. Either that, or they just really like to train, which is fine. I love to train. But training 20 or 25 hours/week isn’t necessary (by any stretch of the imagination) to complete an ironman, and I’d imagine it takes the place of some other fun things you could do. That’s just my opinion…I’m sure you’ll get many more… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw some postings up there, concerning training hours/distances. I was shocked how much the average newsgrouper trains / how little I do. I woundered how many of these athletes were mainly professionals and/or focusing thier lives mainly around triathlon. I would like to hear your opinons on the amount of training necessary to finish an ironman no matter what time, say 15 or 16 hours. As I asume it depends highly on the basic fitnesslevel one has, here are some information about me: Age 28, did last year one Marathon (5 hours/mountain) and one Short Distance Tri (3:04 / bike was done on MTB), main sport basketball one or two times a week training, will not be stopped for triathlon training (maybe the week prior to race). Right now I am working 1 hour on swimming technique, and do a short run (5km) and long bike (3 hours) or long run (20 km) and short bike (1hour) per week. I also wondered about the speed-gain from switching from MTB (already equipped with slicks) to a road/tri bike. Thanks for your opinions, I hope my english was not too terrible. You may answer in German too. Torsten

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I was so impressed with myself I decided to see if I could hold this new form over a greater distance…  unfortunately, it proved too soon for that. After about three or four laps of continuous swimming it all goes to hell and I’m back swimming crap-style.

The total immersion workbook explains a couple of drills that will help the transition from drills to normal swimming.  Once you master them, it is easy to switch back forth between drills and swimming, even on the same lap.  I’ve done the drills for two or three years now and they become just as natural to practice as normal swimming.  The hardest part about the TI program for me is getting more speed.  Terry L. explains there is a tradeoff between stroke length and stroke rate.  He also encourages swimmers to continue counting their strokes and playing swim "golf" to keep improving. Swimslug

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Before I started triathlon I was a runner.  Cycling was easy for me to pick up and now its stronger than my running.  Swimming was my only problem… I stunk.  I’m still young (17) so I know that I have lots of potential.  After a year of grinding through lap after lap with little to no improvement (mile still not under 27) I just got sick of it.  After trying to seek professional coaching and discovering that it was out of my price range, I bought the TI video and book.  I knew that my stroke was the problem and that it needed to be fixed.  Today I went down to the pool and tested out the drills that I read about and saw. I did each of the ten drills.  It took me about three to four laps to master each one but I got through them.  After over an hour of nothing but drills I decided to take my new stroke out for a spin.  At first it was a disaster… I had totally forgotten how to swim it seemed.  There I was, flailing around doing some sort of half swim – half drill monstrosity.  "Uh, oh.. what have I done?? Now I can’t even swim!!" I thought.  I went back the end of the lane and tried again.  This time I remembered that this was not a drill and swam normal.  I counted my strokes as I went…  11, 12, 13… CLONK!!! "HOLY CRAP!!" I exclaimed as I hit the wall much sooner and in less strokes than I had ever done before.  After everyone stopped staring at me I tried it again.  14 strokes, then 13 strokes.  This was no fluke and my times were just as fast as before I had started this Total Immersion thing. I was so impressed with myself I decided to see if I could hold this new form over a greater distance…  unfortunately, it proved too soon for that. After about three or four laps of continuous swimming it all goes to hell and I’m back swimming crap-style.  But hey…  that’s not bad.  I’ve decided to never take a poor stroke again.  So for now, the farthest I will allow myself to swim is 200 yards.  I’ve still got quite a bit of work ahead on improving my stroke and how long I can keep it up so maybe this TI stuff isn’t a one day fix.  But I’m sure that in the end I will be swimming faster and easier than ever before!! —  Salvador "holy crap!!" Santolucito

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Yeah, lots of races around here…yada, yada, yada…< Tim Hignett Buaidh No Bas http://members.aol.com/hignett/index.html

Yeah, what Tim said! -John

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I’m going to be moving to Conneticut at the end of the month and I’m wondering if there are triathlons in CT or within driving distance of Bristol.  I can’t seem to find a Triathlete Magazine around anywhere.   Also I was wondering if anyone knows if there are any Master Swim teams in CT and where? Thanks Marc

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I’m going to be moving to Conneticut at the end of the month and I’m wondering if there are triathlons in CT or within driving distance of Bristol.  I can’t seem to find a Triathlete Magazine around anywhere.   Also I was wondering if anyone knows if there are any Master Swim teams in CT and where? Thanks Marc

Yeah, lots of races around here.  CT du/tri series puts on about 8 races a year thay are www.ziplink.net/~brianj/.  FIRM has a race in MASS or RI every week (already posted there website twice today!)  New York Triathlon Club has several races within 2 hours drive www.nytc.org.  Also the international distance regional championships is in farmington(just next door to bristol) on June 28, that race is run by CATS(CT area triathletes) who puts on a small tuesday evening sprint race every week and puts on a masters swim meet each week(sorry don’t have contact info handy, but e-mail me if you want).  Also Time Out! productions has a race series out on cape cod and area(2-3 hours from bristol) including a IMQ near Boston in August.  Other master swims, Weslyn(sp) college in middletown, cornerstone aquatics in West Hartford has an excellant program( or used to anyway) Though your best bet is CATS since they are very close to bristol.  You are moving to a excellant area for triathletes with abundant competitive racing.  Contact me if you want for some good bike routes and for a good race(I race every week!) Tim Hignett Buaidh No Bas http://members.aol.com/hignett/index.html

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Question:

I’m planning on doinf my first triathlon in early August, and don’t know where to start my training.  I already train for competitive running, but need some major work on the swim.  Any good advice/workouts that can get me started would be appreciated!!  Thanks!! Pat Foran  (Tweed, Ontario) P.S. – It’s the Kingston Triathlon in Kingston, Ontario if you were wondering!!!

Response:

Look into Masters Swimming or something like it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning on doinf my first triathlon in early August, and don’t know where to start my training.  I already train for competitive running, but need some major work on the swim.  Any good advice/workouts that can get me started would be appreciated!!  Thanks!! Pat Foran  (Tweed, Ontario) P.S. – It’s the Kingston Triathlon in Kingston, Ontario if you were wondering!!!

Response:

Question:

Lighten up, Stacy, and PLEASE don’t speak for me, or the others on RST, unless you have permission. Thanks,

 *snip As far as lightening up, I don’t understand.  Maybe my grammar failed me again, but I was only trying to offer the guy a little encouragement in a difficult situation.  What exactly constitutes lightening up to you?  

I have to admit that I, too, was perplexed by Lynne’s post.  Lynne, what were you trying to say?  What did Stacy say that you found "heavy"?  I thought it was a very nice, friendly post, expressing support for Steve and USAT. There’s gotta be some sort of misunderstanding going on here….. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

USA Triathlon will be hosting a hospitality suite in the King K on Friday and  Saturday (race day). RSTers are welcome to drop by. Check for the location at  the front desk. Steve Locke USA Triathlon

Response:

Lighten up, Stacy, and PLEASE don’t speak for me, or the others on RST, unless you have permission.

She can speak for me, because I agree with what she has said, and a lot of  people do. I know not everyone does, but since when does everyone agree? And  who is going to give her permission? You? Mike Plumb

Response:

Steve, I wish I was going to be in Kona for the race.  If I was I’d stop in and try to convince you that not everyone here on RST thinks that you’ve failed us in what must be a very difficult situation.  All of the uproar on RST should just tell you how disappointed we all are that it has all come to this and how we all hope for a swift and even-handed resolution.  Please keep us informed, in any small way that you can, of the current events as they unfold. Lighten up, Stacy…

Did I miss something here?  Nothing Stacy wrote warranted such a comment, in my opinion.  I think you need to lighten up, Lynne.  I thought Stacy’s comments were very positive and supportive.   …and PLEASE don’t speak for me…

Nothing that Stacy wrote even hints at speaking for you, or anyone else on rst.  I think you misread the post.   e.g., "not everyone here on RST" does not equal speaking for everyone.   …or the others on RST, unless you have permission.

Are *YOU* not speaking for others on rst now, Lynne?  Did *YOU* get a consensus vote to make this comment?  You certainly did not speak for me.   Thanks.

Yeah, right.   -Rolf — I am Iron Mac.            The Ironman is over in the blink of an eye.                                                    Enjoy it! IMC’94/14:07    IMC’95/11:59    IMC’97/12:12    IMC’98/Confirmed

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lighten up, Stacy, and PLEASE don’t speak for me, or the others on RST, unless you have permission. Thanks, USA Triathlon will be hosting a hospitality suite in the King K on Friday and Saturday (race day). RSTers are welcome to drop by. Check for the location at the front desk. Steve Locke USA Triathlon Steve, I wish I was going to be in Kona for the race.  If I was I’d stop in and try to convince you that not everyone here on RST thinks that you’ve failed us in what must be a very difficult situation.  All of the uproar on RST should just tell you how disappointed we all are that it has all come to this and how we all hope for a swift and even-handed resolution.  Please keep us informed, in any small way that you can, of the current events as they unfold. Stacy Hills Reston, VA

Interesting reply, Lynne(is it Lynne?; common courtesy asks for a signature so that I can address you directly as you have me). I humbly, and honestly beg your pardon if I implied that I was speaking for you.  Maybe I should have just said that I don’t think he’s failed in his duties and that I hope that he can help in getting this mess sorted out as quickly as possible and to the satisfaction of his constituency. As far as lightening up, I don’t understand.  Maybe my grammar failed me again, but I was only trying to offer the guy a little encouragement in a difficult situation.  What exactly constitutes lightening up to you?  Should I have bashed him yet again like so many have already?  Called for his resignation?  Sorry but that number has been done to death and I’d rather offer encouragement in the hope that Steve would give us an update periodically. Terribly sorry if I have misrepresented RST, Stacy Hills Reston, VA

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I humbly apologize for that post;  this was NOT my intent.  Forgive me, please. Lynne  PLEASE don’t speak for me, or the others on RST, unless you have permission. Thanks,

Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Lynne  Fonda-Kosorek Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin:          vcard fn:             Lynne  Fonda-Kosorek n:              Fonda-Kosorek;Lynne org:            TEAM USA, ‘97 title:          NOVA MATCH note:           "You get what you settle for" x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version:        2.1 end:            vcard

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I misread the post, Tricia.  I feel so bad. Must be the head injury from my bike crash last week.  Arrgh.  I hope I am forgiven. I heartily agree that Steve needs the backing of us all ! Those of us who are annual members of USAT, and especially those of us who give many, many volunteer hours to the volunteer efforts of, say being a Cat 2 Draft Marshall, have taken the action necessary to back that first step of becoming a member. I hope this is lucid, since, as my earlier faux pax shows, I am still in brain deficit from crash.  Mild concussion, crack ribs and road rash, though significatnly better now. In unity, Lynne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lighten up, Stacy, and PLEASE don’t speak for me, or the others on RST, unless you have permission. Thanks,  *snip As far as lightening up, I don’t understand.  Maybe my grammar failed me again, but I was only trying to offer the guy a little encouragement in a difficult situation.  What exactly constitutes lightening up to you? I have to admit that I, too, was perplexed by Lynne’s post.  Lynne, what were you trying to say?  What did Stacy say that you found "heavy"?  I thought it was a very nice, friendly post, expressing support for Steve and USAT. There’s gotta be some sort of misunderstanding going on here….. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie

Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Lynne  Fonda-Kosorek Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin:          vcard fn:             Lynne  Fonda-Kosorek n:              Fonda-Kosorek;Lynne org:            TEAM USA, ‘97 title:          NOVA MATCH note:           "You get what you settle for" x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version:        2.1 end:            vcard

Response:

USA Triathlon will be hosting a hospitality suite in the King K on Friday and Saturday (race day). RSTers are welcome to drop by. Check for the location at the front desk. Steve Locke USA Triathlon

Steve, I wish I was going to be in Kona for the race.  If I was I’d stop in and try to convince you that not everyone here on RST thinks that you’ve failed us in what must be a very difficult situation.  All of the uproar on RST should just tell you how disappointed we all are that it has all come to this and how we all hope for a swift and even-handed resolution.  Please keep us informed, in any small way that you can, of the current events as they unfold. Stacy Hills Reston, VA

Response:

I would be happy to put together a list of RSTers who are going to Kona. Send me your name and lodging info and I’ll post a list back to the newsgroup on Thursday. If you’re already in Hawaii…I’m jealous. Any ideas for a get together? We might try meeting some morning at the pier for a swim. Cathy Corning

Response:

Question:

I’ve been reading Triathlete magazine for three years, and I think I’ve finally had enough.  They are obsessed with the pros,and give little room to things that are relevant to the age-grouper.  (I’m also tired of Scott Tinley’s column.)  I was thinking ab out Triathlete Today.  Does anyone think it is better?    Or — is there a value to Triathlete that I am missing?

Response:

I’ve been reading Triathlete magazine for three years, and I think I’ve finally had enough.  They are obsessed with the pros,and give little room to things that are relevant to the age-grouper.  (I’m also tired of Scott Tinley’s column.)  I was thinking ab out Triathlete Today.  Does anyone think it is better?    Or — is there a value to Triathlete that I am missing?

        Personally, I find the articles about the pros very interesting. Although I may never be able to compete with them, I have gained an immense appreciation for their talents and accomplishments by seeing and reading about them.  All sports need stars to grow, whether it’s Michael Jordan or Mark Allen.  It’s how sports are marketed in this country and it is essential to the growth of triathlon, because a lot of people won’t even get to the point where they understand the magnificence of either athlete’s talents.  They just want a readily identifiable name and face to root for.         As for Tinley, I don’t always agree with him, but I find his column interesting and provocative, without being obnoxious.  I’d hate to see them drop it, if only because it does create discussion.         Just out of curiousity, what would you have Triathlete cover? They already have what seems like a fair amount of age-grouper material in the magazine.  Any more and they’d become a regional publication, because I don’t care to read a lot about age-group competition in Australia, and they no doubt feel the same way about US age-groupers.         Inside Triathlon (formerly Triathlon Today) is a great magazine, and I subscribe both to it and Triathlete.  If age-group coverage is what you want, there is more of it there, as well as a much more complete race calendar.  But, they too, are going to give more ink to the pros, because companies that sponsor pros usually buy advertising. Timothy Gotsick

Response:

I thought commercial posts were frowned upon in rst land. Has this changed in recent weeks? I think it’s noteworthy that IT, the new leader of the tri industry, Competitor or the little 220 haven’t posted 800 numbers or hawked its wares under the guise of a  sob story to the newsgroup. The sport has evolved Grant. It ain’t 1988 anymore. There are a lot of dedicated people involved the triathlon publishing business these days, and more sources of information. Do the other mags get equal time now? or do we just drop it?

JJ seems to have a double standard here!  I also recall, as TJ Fry mentioned, JJ’s efforts to get more personal gain from rst than Triathlete ever has.  He doesn’t hesitate to announce the launching of the "little 220", ask for letters to the editor and so on.  I think this Grant wanted some constructive criticism instead of the empty insults that JJ loves to see on rst(of course after he left the old regime as the editor there before Bill K.)  I hope I dont see anymore ads for the "little 220" anymore after JJ’s last comments. Andy Dell

Response:

Yes I am from Triathlete.

No I am not hiding. My name is Grant Palmer. I just came on a month ago from Sports & Fitness Publishing in Boulder, CO. Yes the old regime is completely gone.<< Uh,uh,uh Grant, not all….not true…this a newsgroup.. come on, out with it. The new staff could make this magazine valuable once again with solid

input. We are a dedicated group that cares about the sport. Please review the May issue. Give me your address and I’ll send you May at no

cost. Thanks for your comments. They are all very helpful and will better the magazine. Sorry we can not send out any more free issues, but you should be able to find one at your local tri store. If not, let us know and we’ll get it there.<<

???? I thought commercial posts were frowned upon in rst land. Has this changed in recent weeks? I think it’s noteworthy that IT, the new leader of the tri industry, Competitor or the little 220 haven’t posted 800 numbers or hawked its wares under the guise of a  sob story to the newsgroup. The sport has evolved Grant. It ain’t 1988 anymore. There are a lot of dedicated people involved the triathlon publishing business these days, and more sources of information. Do the other mags get equal time now? or do we just drop it? Good luck. JJ

Response:

Triathlete Magazine ….. When this word pops into my head I think of pretty photographs  a cover with Dave, Allen, Tinley or Pigg (Are there stats on this) and news which are 3 months old. Someone once told me that you know a town is small, when people read the newspaper to see if they got the story right. That’s how I feel about triathlete Mag. I really just look at the pics. Oh about this maffetone thing aren’t you the guys who published a picture of him with Allen, Pig and Tim Deboom. What’s up with that! Now many novices to our sport are eating fat partly because you guys make this guy out to be some god guru doctor (sorry chiropractor). How about responsibility in journalism. I suppose Allen Pigg and Deboom where no good before he showed up. Lets see if Mr. Maffetone can turn me into a record breaker. But of course if he did you guys would not give him credit. Well, keep up with the nice photos. I saw a fine UK triathlete Mag the Year in Pictures. I wondered how come there was no US version. It’s your strength so use it. I’ll think of more things to say but I got training to do. Luis Vargas

Response:

Sob story? Come again. Just an earnest effort to fulfill people’s requests to make Triathlete the best it can be. P.S. I apologize for the (800) number. I did not know the rules.

Response:

Take heart, JJ.  We’re not telling this guy what it will take to get back our business.  I can’t stand Triathlete mag–too glitzy and full of fluff, even back during your tenure–and I couldn’t care less if it’s free.  I’m just not going back. As for US 220, what kind of premiere issue promos do you have planned? The title’s intriguing and I’d enjoy another magazine (like IT and VeloNews) with some substance. See you in Tampa- Mike

Response:

Grant — Here’s my pet peeve about Triathlete — too much of the magazine seems like a product placement.  Reviews of products are never critical, and generally, they are no more than basic factual information about what is being reviewed.  In addition, a lot of the articles that are in the news section of the magazine read like press releases from the manufacturer.  It looks like if you took out the material that is supplied by manufacturers and sales reps, there wouldn’t be much left.  There is a free magazine in the Chicago area called Windy City Sports that has a couple sections that seem to be made up of press releases.  I’m in- terested in news from manufacturers and sales reps, and I read the stuff in Windy City Sports and in Triathlete.  I just think that a magazine that makes you pay for a subscription should have more. I also think that the editing in recent issues has been awful — the magazine has more typos and other glaring mistakes than a professional publication should. Finally, in my view, some of the swim/bike/run training pieces are repetitive.  Having seen them for several years, it seems rare that I actually learn anything from them (and believe me, I have a lot to learn).  There are exceptions that I find pretty worthwile. I think that’s just a start.  I get more worked up about this when I first get the magazine.  Some of my points just fade into a general unhappiness with the magazine after a week or two. Good luck. Jeff Mazer

Response:

Looking for comments on Triathlete magazine. Looking for constructive criticism. We are all in and love the sport. All that is on here is either trash talking. Let’s grow up and leave the immature banter for other sports. We are a small sport that needs to ban together to become stronger. Triathlete has been responsible for a lot of the sport’s growth.  Why slam something you love- something that can help your sport. Any comments you make will be taken seriously in making Triathlete the best voice it can be for the triathlon community.

I agree with Cathy Corning about product reviews.  Triathlon equipment is very expensive, especially biking equipment, but there is little, if any, unbiased and comprehensive information available for us when we’re purchasing.  Take some tips from Bicycling magazine (BTW, I have no financial interest in it), which offers very good product reviews.  For example, they may review all full fully suspended mountain bikes.  In so doing they have several reviewers ride all the bikes and then rate them against one another.  Of course you’ll get individual biases, but most of the reviewers will admit them upfront in the article.  What I like even more, is that they will keep riding the bikes and give a follow-up, long term review at a later date. I realize that Bicycling mag already does this, but they rarely cover tri specific stuff, or if they do it’s just a small portion of what’s out there.  Your magazine is in a position to get these products free just for the publicity.  I feel that your current product reviews are little more than free (or are they?) advertisements for new products. We currently get the above information from other people on rst, but the greatest disadvantage is that very few of us have had the time, money, or opportunity to fully test all the candidate products before we buy one. Thanks,

Response:

Sorry, everyone, I forgot to sign the above.         Stacy J. Hills         Code 8222, Bldg 116                     Phone: (401) 841-4504         Naval Undersea Warfare Center           FAX:   (401) 841-2223         Newport, RI 02841                       DSN:   948-4504

Response:

| Yes I am from Triathlete. | | No I am not hiding. | | My name is Grant Palmer. I just came on a month ago from Sports & Fitness | Publishing in Boulder, CO. | | Yes the old regime is completely gone. | | The new staff could make this magazine valuable once again with solid | input. We are a dedicated group that cares about the sport. Please review | the May issue. | | Reply if you care to. Give me your address and I’ll send you May at no | cost. You need to have better proof readers. For example, the latest issue shows a Zipp 2001 with a caption describing it as the Wynn Wishbone (I think that’s the correct name). Such errors make one wonder about the care taken in putting together the other articles in the magazine as well as the accuracy of the information published. One other thing I’d like to see is greater coverage of age group races/results. I’m not all that interested in what Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Paula Newby Fraser can do in races or what race they compete in. I know i’m never going to race against, compete with, or train like they can/do. I’d like to know more about what people who work at a "regular" job 8 hours a day do for training, how they do in races, etc., etc.

Response:

I just took a quick glance at the May issue, and noticed that it has more meat than the last few skin and bone issues. I liked Riccitello’s typically rambling and irreverent comments, the balanced approach to   seasoned-techno-weenies on one hand, and begginers on the other. Rick Niles’and Joe Friel’s training tips are always straight forward and clear. But the Negril piece was too cream-puffy….how about some text? I suggest you take a look at Inside Triathlon and VeloNews (I’m sure you do); the things they do that I like: thorough and professional race reports, with results going ten, or twenty deep; semi-tangential but well written stories like Browning’s multi-sport musings or (in VeloNews) an inside look at mechanics and soigneurs; LONG results from lots of races (it’s great for anyone to al least make it once into print); more thorough calendars of events (you might even include, gasp!, non-sanctioned events). My two cents worth. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes I am from Triathlete. No I am not hiding. My name is Grant Palmer. I just came on a month ago from Sports & Fitness Publishing in Boulder, CO. Yes the old regime is completely gone. The new staff could make this magazine valuable once again with solid input. We are a dedicated group that cares about the sport. Please review the May issue. Reply if you care to. Give me your address and I’ll send you May at no cost.

Response:

My name is Grant Palmer. I just came on a month ago from Sports & Fitness Publishing in Boulder, CO.

Welcome Grant, but I hope you have a thick skin if you plan to hang around. I hope you can improve the mag and not continue the way it has been over the past year or so. I have actually picked up ttiathlete at the newsstand the past few months just to read the articles that pissed everyone off. ( remember someone once said … its better to be hated than ignored. Bruce Platt

Response:

You’re right they don’t identify anybody.  Whose the athlete in their ad for subscriptions (the female running against the setting sun)?  Shouldn’t we get a name there?

Response:

Thanks for your comments. They are all very helpful and will better the magazine. Sorry we can not send out any more free issues, but you should be able to find one at your local tri store. If not, let us know and we’ll get it there. (800) 842-0357

Response:

I thought that the May issue of Triathlete was fantastic.  Great improvement over the April issue.  It is very exciting to see all of the races listed in the calendar.  I am looking forward to a exciting year of race coverage by Triathlete.  Tom Ziebart

Response:

I think the best sport’s mag currently is Velo news.  I don’t race bicycles, but still find their articles extremely valuable and interesting.  Inside triathlon (same publisher) is close, but doesn’t have the depth yet. I am a bit dissapointed when the same articles are placed in both velo news and IT, however.  The formula for success is this: actually test and review products, giving data that readers can use. Cover races in depth and with interesting writing.  Don’t make silly mistakes or publish statements without verifying them- makes the magazine seem very unprofessional (e.g., in May’s issue, calling a Zipp 2001 a Wynn, saying that all Hed wheels have spokes attached to the aluminum rim, when the CX’s are attached to the carbon fairing, and stating that dairy products are bad because they "coat your throat making it hard to breath" {you must be kidding – does Rushton fill her water bottles with milkshakes- whether she said this or you added it, it is unresponsible to publish such crap}).  Finally, never, ever, ever publish photos without captions!!!! Many of your photos are interesting, but I think most readers would like to know what race they came from if not who is in the picture!  Shape up, and people will buy your mag. We all want to read good stuff about being a triathlete, that’s why you’re so charred right now – we are concerned. I personally think that magazines are one ot the best ways to learn about a particular interest (I currently get Bicycling, Velonews, Inside triahlon, triathlete, runner’s World, Swim, and often purchase Bicycle guide and Winning). There, now I feel better. Dr. Todd N. Kenyon Key Biscayne, FL

Response:

: Looking for comments on Triathlete magazine. Looking for constructive : criticism. : Any comments you make will be taken seriously in making Triathlete the : best voice it can be for the triathlon community. : My list of comments: – Good list.  I would also add:

       Publish it on paper that can be recycled.  That glossy stuff is        getting a very bad reputation among the environmentally concious.        Plus, the glossy stuff is probably more expensive than lesser        grades. : 1. Don’t call age groupers ho-hum. : 2. Don’t claim that drafting is good for the sport and will add new people :    to the sport. : 3. Don’t feed us articles about pros who drop out of races more times :    than they finish and have a thousand excuses for dropping out. : 4. Don’t publish homophobic irrational letters-to-the editor and omit :    publishing rebuttals. : 7. Provide us with a true product review instead of "it’s blue, weighs 210 :    grams, and costs $210" without some substantive performance information :    about the product and how it compares to others. : I think this newsgroup has been rather restrained in it’s criticism. : What I have to say in public about Triathlete mag is quite polite : compared to the comments I have to myself when I’m reading it. – I agree here too.  I read the posts, and they are very tame for the

     most part.  This is both good and bad. It’s good because the content      tends to be more productive, less destructive. This means less static.      On the other hand, true controversy might be inhibited because people      don’t want to get flamed. -RC

Response:

  I loved the column by Jimmy Riccitello, but he also does a column for an Arizona magazine that we get free here in California bike shops.   I agree, it was nice to see a huge race schedule.  In the article about the Triathlete www, did anyone else notice that they didn’t give the location of the site in the article?  The picture shows a location, but later in the magazine the CompuServe ad gives a different location.  I was just wondering…..   I wish that the article about Fernanda Keller had had more flattering photos…she is really beautiful in "real life" but the pictures didn’t reflect that.   One last thing….I HATE the Hootersman ad.  Do women actually do that race?  Yuck.      TriGal

Response:

I thought commercial posts were frowned upon in rst land. Has this changed in recent weeks? I think it’s noteworthy that IT, the new leader of the tri industry, Competitor or the little 220 haven’t posted 800 numbers or hawked its wares under the guise of a  sob story to the newsgroup. Do the other mags get equal time now? or do we just drop it? JJ

I seem to recall quite a long thread about 220. What was that email I think "Triathlete" should be able to defend itself when it gets flamed to all hell on rst. T.J. T.J. Fry                  : "It takes a big man to cry, but Clemson University        : that man".-DEEP THOUGHTS by Jack Handy Men’s varsity swimming    :

Response:

Yes I am from Triathlete. No I am not hiding. My name is Grant Palmer. I just came on a month ago from Sports & Fitness Publishing in Boulder, CO. Yes the old regime is completely gone. The new staff could make this magazine valuable once again with solid input. We are a dedicated group that cares about the sport. Please review the May issue. Reply if you care to. Give me your address and I’ll send you May at no cost.

Response:

Thanks for your comments. They will be passed on to the Editor and Publisher. We are making every effort to be a valuable resource for the triathlon world. Feel free to comment any time. Triathlete Magazine 121 Second St. San Francisco, CA 94109

Response:

Yes the old regime is completely gone.

Yippeee!! Triathlete published a list of former winners at Wilkes-Barre, an IM qualifier race.  That was very useful for athletes age 49 and down.  As usual the results of the rest were omitted. Another criticism I consider constructive: the "People" style of personality coverage is too superficial to be printed. I liked the product reviews written by Justice.  You need someone of his caliber with absolutely no vested interest in the subjects of the reviews. I checked out your site on-line, but was refused for lack of payment. If the New York Times lets me on free, why not Triathlete? You’re going to recieve a lot of suggestions.  I’ll leave room for others. Ruth Kazez

Response:

Looking for comments on Triathlete magazine. Looking for constructive criticism. We are all in and love the sport. All that is on here is either trash talking. Let’s grow up and leave the immature banter for other sports. We are a small sport that needs to ban together to become stronger. Triathlete has been responsible for a lot of the sport’s growth.  Why slam something you love- something that can help your sport. Any comments you make will be taken seriously in making Triathlete the best voice it can be for the triathlon community.

Response:

Looking for comments on Triathlete magazine. Looking for constructive criticism.

As one who has "slammed" the magazine once or twice — who are you? I can tell you why I think the magazine is a waste, but I’d like to know whether I am telling this to another triathlete who is just concerned about the level of discourse on r.s.t, or whether the magazine itself is interested in my or our comments. I seem to recall that people associated or formerly associated with the magazine have posted messages to r.s.t without using their real names. I also know that Triathlete has used r.s.t posts without attribution. If you are really interested in my or comments, reveal your true identity, and maybe someone will be willing to talk to you. Jeff Mazer

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Looking for comments on Triathlete magazine. Looking for constructive criticism. Any comments you make will be taken seriously in making Triathlete the best voice it can be for the triathlon community.

My list of comments: 1. Don’t call age groupers ho-hum. 2. Don’t claim that drafting is good for the sport and will add new people    to the sport. 3. Don’t feed us articles about pros who drop out of races more times    than they finish and have a thousand excuses for dropping out. 4. Don’t publish homophobic irrational letters-to-the editor and omit    publishing rebuttals. 7. Provide us with a true product review instead of "it’s blue, weighs 210    grams, and costs $210" without some substantive performance information    about the product and how it compares to others. I think this newsgroup has been rather restrained in it’s criticism. What I have to say in public about Triathlete mag is quite polite compared to the comments I have to myself when I’m reading it. Cathy Corning

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Looking for comments on Triathlete magazine. Looking for constructive

criticism. We are all in and love the sport. All that is on here is either trash talking. Let’s grow up and leave the immature banter for other

You must have been reading different posts that I have.  Every post I can remember has included several cogent reasons for disliking Triathlete: – fluffy equipment reviews – unhelpful training advice – too many personality-stories – a blurred line between editorial resposibilities and advertising This list comes from my recollection of past posts, not from my opinion of the magazine (I haven’t bothered to look at it for about a year.) Generally the posts concluded with something like "Triathlete sucks." Maybe this is the only part of the posts you remember.  I saw the "trash talking" at the end of the posts more as a logical conclusion of the detailed criticisms outlined above. Triathlete has been responsible for a lot of the sport’s growth.  Why slam something you love- something that can help your sport.

People have been criticising Triathlete, not triathlons. (Although there is a lot of that, too.  See the drafting threads) Which brings me to the main reason I bothered to respond to this… I was originally pissed off at you for daring to even try to censor discussion on r.s.t.  After re-reading my original reply, I realized that you and I were making the same mistake.  You (surely) aren’t trying to censor the net – you are looking for constructive criticism, even though most of your post is asking people to not write bad things about Triathlete.  If you go back and look at the posts about Triathlete, I think you will find piece of constructive criticism in each one; like I did with your post, the first time you read them you focussed on something that was sensitive to you and missed the information you were looking for. Any comments you make will be taken seriously in making Triathlete the best voice it can be for the triathlon community.

Again, it’s good to hear that you are interested in improving. — Dan Reiley, Ph.D.         AT&T Bell Labs    Naperville, IL

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Why would any responsible age group triathlete ever buy more than one copy of Triathlete Magazine?   I seems to me that most triathletes are of at least average intelligence, reasonably physically fit, competitive in nature and would like to have a pat on the back for their effort. I recently purchased a copy of Triathlete Magazine ( May 1997 ) and read it from cover to cover.   What a big disappointment that was.   Their coverage of events made it appear as though only 8 or ten competitors existed in each event.  Just a few Professionals.  No mention of any age groupers, not once.  How pathetic.   Age Groupers are the backbone of the sport.  They certainly keep the doors open on shops that sell triathlon equipment and clothing.   Professionals do not purchase much of this equipment, it is mostly provided by sponsors. I think it may be time for the manufacturers of equipment as well as all age groupers to start demanding equal coverage/recognition for the age groupers.    I have made a pact with myself to no longer buy the magazine until they change their ways.   I have found the only use for the mag is to see what equipment is available.  I can do the same thing on the Internet so no need for the Magazine.   Without age group results it is totally a waste of money.  If it wont support us, why would we continue to support it? Am I alone on this or do you feel the same way?   How about a thread. Ken

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Why would any responsible age group triathlete ever buy more than one copy of Triathlete Magazine?  

I agree … I’ve bought 1 or 2 mags but only for entry forms to races so that I get them early enough to be able to enter. Ummm … As a junior Australian triathlete I would luv to C age groupers N juniors who I C compete week in N week out get into magazines … B/C I’d like to one day B one of the top in the sport, I try not to worship them like Gods [no offence intended] … so reading about them in tri mags is not really the only exciting tri thang I like Actually, there R some age groupers who have awesome stories to tell about their training n raceing experiences. [most of us do hey ] How about some magazine does a cover story on age groupers as a group N then use that as a way to at least write say 5-10 columns dedicated to "non-professional" triathlon *shy shrug* Dindy

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I’m with you on this one. I buy the magazine to check out the new stuff, too. What I would really like to read is more about age group athletes. Look back to last week on RST and check out David’s Hephzipah Race Report. For those of us out there doing this for pure sport (I’ll never win a race let alone get payed), his race report was a lot more interesting than reading about the current "idol" at the latest Ironman. Come down to earth "Triathlete Magazine." Jeff Roberts

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Looks like with the June issue…the one with Zack on the cover…they are undergoing yet another make-over with staff etc.  To their credit they do have Tim Carlson writing for them, who usually does a fine job and will address issues as well as anyone can in this type of "mainstream"(?) press. I’d rather have it than not, though I must admit that RST does a fine and immediate job of "reporting" the sport these days.  Triathlete’s web-site is pretty pathetic. Mark

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Why would any responsible age group triathlete ever buy more than one copy of Triathlete Magazine?  

Well, I guess I agree with your position, but I do like to be informed about events.  Does Inside Tri do a better job of covering events from the age grouper perspective? Bob J Largo, FL

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Why would any responsible age group triathlete ever buy more than one copy of Triathlete Magazine?  

Triathlete Magazine has some excellent writers, Timothy Carlson, Lisa Lynam, Gale Bernhardt jump to mind but by no means are an exclusive list. However, it also has many problems. Despite some excellent writing, (and of course some really awful stuff that has previously been the subject of RST threads), some of the subjects simply have no interest for me. First, I NEVER read about ITU races. That’s half the magazine right there. Second, there is the almost total focus on the few pros. Not much of the magazine features the amateurs, although there are a few things here and there. And, to state a blasphemy, I am really getting tired of reading Scott Tinley. The brief articles that are thinly veiled product advertisements really annoy me. I wish I had positive suggestions for Triathlete. I know there are people there who love the sport and writing about it, and are really putting effort and energy into making it a success. For some reason, it just doesn’t hold much appeal for me anymore. Cathy Corning

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I feel that way. It is beat by far by Inside triathlon. I think USAT is the same route. Their focus is on Olympics, when most of the age groupers could care less. Ther average age of male triathletes is about 37, so you can see that we are the ones who should get some benefit from our membership. Antway I am in agreement with you, and have not purchased triathlete mag for many years.

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<snip things here and there. And, to state a blasphemy, I am really getting tired of reading Scott Tinley. The brief articles that are thinly veiled product advertisements really annoy me.

I haven’t been reading Triathlete Mag. long enough to determine how it compares to other mags, but Tinley’s article in the latest issue takes a pretty good jab at the ITU (of course without actually saying "ITU"). It will make no difference to the ITU I’m sure, but it is nice to see the opinion so commonly expressed here on RST in national print. — Dragon MechE – Nokia Mobile Phones Take out the ‘XX’ to reply by email.  Spam sucks. The man who believes he can do anything is probably right; So is the man who believes he can’t.

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<comments about Triathlete mag deleted Am I alone on this or do you feel the same way?   How about a thread.

I stopped buying Triathlete magazine about 2 years ago. I forget exactly why, other than my dissappointment with the content and the magazine’s seeming obsession with pro athletes. -Rolf — Call me IronMac …                         … I tri …                                          … I prefer Macintosh! IMC ‘94 – 14:06:47   IMC ‘95 – 11:58:35    IMC ‘97 – 10:45:00

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Hey Treemoss, I missed the tread on this message but I subscribe to Triathlon Mag and have been dissapointed with their emphesis on pros, I am what they call a "wanabee", but I love it and am really beginning to be a contender in my age group, 40-44. (this is my second season). I have shyed away from Inside triathlon mag, it costs twice what Triathlon magazine costs.  Maybe I should give it a tri. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel that way. It is beat by far by Inside triathlon. I think USAT is the same route. Their focus is on Olympics, when most of the age groupers could care less. Ther average age of male triathletes is about 37, so you can see that we are the ones who should get some benefit from our membership. Antway I am in agreement with you, and have not purchased triathlete mag for many years.

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I see that USAT responded to my comment about their focus on the Olympics and then went on to tell of other things they do. Such as their junior training program – Well I don’t care too much for that either. Seems like there are enough events around for juniors to participate in right now. What help do they need that USAT has to have a program? Or is this just grooming for the Olympicss? Here we are back at that. Age groupers don’t have a program, we do it because we love it. You should all remember that without age groupers triathlon is nothing. There would not even be any pro races without age group participation. Who could come up with road closures, park use, etc. for a pro field of maybe 20? And what of the fees paid that go to insurance. Last year and again this year when I complained about failure of race directors to send in results for USAT national rankings I was told that they are supposed to send them in with their collected one day USAT fees, for which they then recieve a rebate on the race sanction fee. About 30 races that year had failed to do so. So, my thinking here is, are those athletes who paid their $5 one day license fee covered in those races if the director failed to send in the money? As for Triathlon Times mag, which you say is NOT inexpensive, I say get rid of it. It is a thin brief publication that really offers me nothing. Inside Triathlon does a much better job. Officiating is the one thing USAT does that works for the athletes. I have read enough here and participated in enough events to know that is not always done to the satisfation of many athletes. I have often noted that USAT race sanction is no guarantee of a good race. In fact some of the worst races I have ever been to have been sanctioned and some of the best were not. I just did the Longmont Duathlon on Sunday, a non-sanctioned event, and it was run extremely well. There is nothing that USAT could do for that race that it is not already handling. I wouldn’t say we don’t need USAT, but quit your poormouthing and get your priorities in order. The age groupers should be at the top of the proirity list.

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For instance officiating receives a priority

Ah, Steve, I am glad you mentioned this. I am wondering if you have any explanation for why Blackwater Eagleman had fewer officials show up than were promised to the race. Any idea what happened? The officials that showed up did a great job, we just could have used more of those red shirts out on the bike course. Cathy Corning

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I noted Treemoss2’s comment regarding USAT’s emphasis on the Olympics. That is not quite true. Although the Olympic Games are important, and hopefully if they are well done they will attract many new athletes into our sport(s), they are not our principle mission. Actually, only about 10% of our budget is devoted to Olympic development (and it is USOC funded). We spend a great deal of emphasis upon day to day operation of the sport. For instance officiating receives a priority (hopefully you have noted Charlie Crawford’s many postings regarding officiating throughout the country)(and officiating is not free), the development of junior camps throughout the nation (we have six this year and will continue to expand into the future-the camps are meant to attract new kids into multisport so our sport will have a future), drug testing is ongoing and expensive (both in and out of competition-we are making every effort to maintain the purity and fairness within our sport), USA Triathlon Times, our bimonthly magazine is not inexpensive and is often difficult to assemble, the USA Triathlon insurance program is active and protects many athletes, sponsors, race directors, venue owners, spectators, volunteers and anyone else associated with races to keep race opportunities available for you, the maintenance and upgrading or revision of rules is ongoing and not inexpensive….and the list can go on and on. Most people do not recognize the many programs ongoing within USAT or just take them for granted. The reality is that someone or some organization needs to maintain these programs and many others to keep the sport organized and moving forward. I hope this is helpful. Steve Locke Executive Director USA Triathlon

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Ken: Check out the June 1997 issue. You will notice that the magazine is now published by a new group. The President (Mitch Thrower) is a young age group triathlete himself. Please write a letter or call their new office. I am certain this new group is interested in hearing your opinions. Good Luck — Keith Simmons Ironman Triathlon Wetsuits (800) 897-6464 (804) 288-6000 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why would any responsible age group triathlete ever buy more than one copy of Triathlete Magazine?   I seems to me that most triathletes are of at least average intelligence, reasonably physically fit, competitive in nature and would like to have a pat on the back for their effort. I recently purchased a copy of Triathlete Magazine ( May 1997 ) and read it from cover to cover.   What a big disappointment that was.   Their coverage of events made it appear as though only 8 or ten competitors existed in each event.  Just a few Professionals.  No mention of any age groupers, not once.  How pathetic.   Age Groupers are the backbone of the sport.  They certainly keep the doors open on shops that sell triathlon equipment and clothing.   Professionals do not purchase much of this equipment, it is mostly provided by sponsors. I think it may be time for the manufacturers of equipment as well as all age groupers to start demanding equal coverage/recognition for the age groupers.    I have made a pact with myself to no longer buy the magazine until they change their ways.   I have found the only use for the mag is to see what equipment is available.  I can do the same thing on the Internet so no need for the Magazine.   Without age group results it is totally a waste of money.  If it wont support us, why would we continue to support it? Am I alone on this or do you feel the same way?   How about a thread. Ken

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I agree with a lot of the responses about not enough age-group articles in Triathlete Magazine, but what we need to be doing is contacting the magazine, en masse, and telling them how we feel. The new group that has taken over will hopefully make a big difference (let’s give them a chance at least). Personally I have read the magazine for four years before even doing my first triathlon. I find the articles on the pro’s fun and inspiring. My complaint there is that they never covered (in depth at least) enough on Mark Allen. But, I do agree with everyone else that age-groupers need to be better represented. I would like to see a lot more training articles for us age groupers that work the 40 hour weeks, have family’s, etc. Talk more about transition tips and "behind" the scenes types of things. But… my one big gripe? EITHER MAKE A DECENT WEBSITE OR DUMP IT! That is the way a lot of the media is going now, so make that a viable source of info and keep it updated. I want to see on their weekly what is going on, results, etc., not be reading last months news when the new issue is sitting on my coffee table! thanks, mracg

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When this thread started, I was reading my latest copy of Running Times. About two-thirds of that mag is devoted to non-elite participants, whther racing, training, or just living the life. Likewise Runner’s World. Lots of training tips, health tips, and racing tips. By contrast, Triathlete Magazine reads like the sports page of the newspaper. Just Who Beat Who. But triathlon is not a spectator sport, and we are not spectators. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like the photo’s and that’s about it. TriJay Jay’s World Web Page http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/2336/index.htm

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I like the photo’s and that’s about it. TriJay Jay’s World Web Page http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/2336/index.htm

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I stopped buying Triathlete magazine about 2 years ago. I forget exactly why, other than my dissappointment with the content and the magazine’s seeming obsession with pro athletes. -Rolf

I hadn’t bought a copy in several years, either. But there I was, stuck in the airport last Monday, and found a copy (June’s) at the newstand. The product reviews on water systems and bike computers was pretty shallow. I hd just seen ESPN’s (?) coverage of the Australian Ironman on tv, so it was interesting to read more details. The interviews were Ok, but not particularly insightful. If this issue was the norm, it’s mostly mind candy. I finished it in less than 45 minutes. I probably won’t subscribe, but I might buy a few issues to see if the new ownership makes a difference. Oh, well. It got me through the layover delay. Mike "TriBop" Tennent WebRunner Running Page http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html My Model Railroad Page http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/srr/

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Question:

:10 years ago everybody said it was essential that you stretch both before and :after you run. Now I’m told that pre-run stretches are not advised as :stretching cold muscles leads to injuries. I’ve always hated stretching before :I run preferring instead to run at a slower pace until I’m warmed up. What is :the current consensus on this. Are pre-run stretches ok or not ok?         A track coach in high school once said to the team, "You can’t stretch too much.  You can stretch too HARD, but you can’t stretch too much."         I think some *gentle* stretching before running is a good idea, as it helps to loosen you up.  If you’re going to do speedwork or a race, follow the gentle stretching with some gentle running, then more stretching, IMHO.         It seems to work for me. — Regards, Chris BeHanna

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Can anyone tell me where there might be a site or other place that has a good stretching program?  I feel about as limber as a steel rod sometimes, especially in my lower back.  Any help will be appreciated.                       In Him,                    Blake Thompson

Blake: -I would suggest investing in stretching time before and after your run (5 to 10 minutes each session – the most rewarding for injury free running). (I am about to run in my 10th marathon.  I stretch religiously). – I recommend an excellent classic  book called "Stretching" by Bob Anderson.  It’s an 8 1/2" x 11"x 1/2" paperback. Costs about $15. Gives you stretches for most sports as well as stretches for morning, at work, etc.  with both excellent drawings as well as technical detail.   – I’ve implemented his "before" and "after" running stretches which I’m convinced are the best way to prevent running injuries (especially knees).  Not only does stretching maintain good range of motion (which is limited and stiff for most runners) but also it helps to strengthen week areas e.g. knees and back. I would nearly equate stretching with nutrition.   – I would add the following achilles stretch before and after each run: 1.  while standing straight, a foot or so away from a wall, prop the front of your right shoe about 4 inches up the wall while keeping your heel on the ground (with your left foot extended flat on the ground two or so feet from the wall) 2.  lean forward to cause your achilles of your right foot to lengthen 3.  hold for 20 seconds. 4. reverse to the other foot against the wall and repeat for 20 seconds. Regards, Kerry

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10 years ago everybody said it was essential that you stretch both before and after you run. Now I’m told that pre-run stretches are not advised as stretching cold muscles leads to injuries. I’ve always hated stretching before I run preferring instead to run at a slower pace until I’m warmed up. What is the current consensus on this. Are pre-run stretches ok or not ok? Ray Kittle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is an "everything you ever wanted to know about stretching" link on: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/trilinks.html scroll down to other useful links. Regards, Lee Rudin San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

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10 years ago everybody said it was essential that you stretch both before and after you run. Now I’m told that pre-run stretches are not advised as stretching cold muscles leads to injuries. I’ve always hated stretching before I run preferring instead to run at a slower pace until I’m warmed up. What is the current consensus on this. Are pre-run stretches ok or not ok? Ray Kittle

        I’m not sure if the response is open to personal opinion, but I like stretching before and after running just because it feels good and wakes my body up a little bit.  I’ve never injured myself stretching. Matt Chiglinsky http://www.voicenet.com/~mattc

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10 years ago everybody said it was essential that you stretch both before and after you run. Now I’m told that pre-run stretches are not advised as stretching cold muscles leads to injuries. I’ve always hated stretching before I run preferring instead to run at a slower pace until I’m warmed up. What is the current consensus on this. Are pre-run stretches ok or not ok? Ray Kittle

Just moved and got a new massage therapist. We started talking about running (she is not a runner) and stretching & she asked if I stretched before running. I said "No, I belong to the school of thought that says not to stretch cold muscles."  She replied "How about chaning to a different school for a while?" She suggested easy stretches in bed in the morning and espeically the one where you pull your knee to your chest. My neck /shoulder still hurts (stress…stress….stress…) but I do get going on my runs a bit better. Mike

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10 years ago everybody said it was essential that you stretch both before and after you run. Now I’m told that pre-run stretches are not advised as stretching cold muscles leads to injuries. I’ve always hated stretching before I run preferring instead to run at a slower pace until I’m warmed up. What is  the current consensus on this. Are pre-run stretches ok or not ok?I aspire to do a slow warm-up, while wearing a track-suit unless it

is really hot, of approx 800m-1200m (2-3 laps of a track) prior to stretching. I find stretching cold difficult. I feel much better when I do this prior to the actual workout. I remember pulling something when I got lazy once. I find my legs less reponsive when I don’t stretch. Don’t be fooled to thinking that it is a warm day so you don’t need to stretch. I’d be very interested in what is recommended by experts as I am only going on what my coach used to say when I was younger. Paul.

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There is an "everything you ever wanted to know about stretching" link on: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/trilinks.html scroll down to other useful links. Regards, Lee Rudin San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

Response:

Can anyone tell me where there might be a site or other place that has a good stretching program?  I feel about as limber as a steel rod sometimes, especially in my lower back.  Any help will be appreciated.                            In Him,                         Blake Thompson

Try "http://www.tms.tribune.com/fyiowa_fitness/strindex.htm" I used to have a pain in the knee after a 30 min jog, but ever since I read an article on the internet about stretching, I don’t have any pains after jogging. It worked great for me. One simple thing to remember to excercise all your joints at least 10 min before and after a jog to get maximum benefits without injuring yourself. In fact, just do a search on "Stretching" on the internet and you will have more advice than you can read. All of them preach the same technique. Good Luck! Warm up, Rao

Response:

Can anyone tell me where there might be a site or other place that has a good stretching program?  I feel about as limber as a steel rod sometimes, especially in my lower back.  Any help will be appreciated.                            In Him,                         Blake Thompson

Response:

Can anyone tell me where there might be a site or other place that has a good stretching program?  I feel about as limber as a steel rod sometimes, especially in my lower back.  Any help will be appreciated.                       In Him,                    Blake Thompson

W. Blake: – I recommend an excellent classic  book called "Stretching" by Bob Anderson.  It’s an 8 1/2" x 11"x 1/2" paperback. Costs about $15. Gives you stretches for most sports as well as stretches for morning, at work, etc.  with both excellent drawings as well as technical detail.   – I’ve implemented his "before" and "after" running stretches which I’m convinced are the best way to prevent running injuries (especially knees).  Not only does stretching maintain good range of motion (which is limited and stiff for most runners) but also it helps to strengthen week areas e.g. knees and back. I would nearly equate stretching with nutrition.   – I would add the following achilles stretch before and after each run: 1.  while standing straight, a foot or so away from a wall, prop the front of your right shoe about 4 inches up the wall while keeping your heel on the ground (with your left foot extended flat on the ground two or so feet from the wall) 2.  lean forward to cause your achilles of your right foot to lengthen 3.  hold for 20 seconds. 4. reverse to the other foot against the wall and repeat for 20 seconds. Regards, Kerry

Response:

Question:

The format came out wrong on this.  Any suggestions on how to clean it up? sorry.

Response:

Has the issue of the legality of the Ironman lottery ever been adequately addressed?  I have some real concerns that it could be deemed an illegal lottery under most (if not all) state laws.  The three-part test for an illegal lottery is consideration, chance and a prize.  The first two are obviously met (e.g., passport club fee, general lottery fee, and a random drawing).  The latter may or may not be present, if you deem an entry as something of value.   Just some throughts to ponder for all of you legal types out there. — Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://www.iac.net/~miller/triweb.html

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To: rec.sport.triathlon Cc: Bcc: X-Attachments: The World Triathlon Corporation (WTC) owns Ironman with all the rights that entails. I view WTC also as the custodian of a portion o= f the total pie that is the soul of Ironman beyond the concept of the balance sheet. As custodians of a portion of the soul pie ther= e are obligations in relation to their business policy and perogatives. WTC enhances or diminishes their specific custodial portion = of the spirit through practices and policies that they are entitled to control as a function of ownership. The soul of Ironman belongs to everyone who shares its spirit. Triathletes think of themselves as majority owners in this regard but=  we always give a big ovation to the volunteers and recognize their participation as well as the race staff, spectators and everyone=  connected with the race including the sponsors. Our best personal ovation is given to those who support us most. Ironman encompasse= s alot of people, past and present that have made it what it is today. WTC has a legal right to portion out qualifiers any way they want, I suppose. On the other hand this is one of the things that direc= tly relates to the spirit of the sport and they should consider that as well as consistency with their own policy. That is the premise I want to present for further discussion. I believe that the WTC Passport lottery conflicts to some degree not only with their own intent for this lottery but the general spi= rit of Ironman. If we think we are big shareholders in the spirit and view WTC as accountable for their custodianship of part of the=  spirit then their feet should be held to the fire if necessary. RST provides a forum for warming feet. I would like to offer this thread for discussion. Offering a lead in the thread is like casti= ng feathers in the wind. Once cast they have a life of their own and don’t belong to the one that tossed them. If this one flies and=  RST’ers join to take a pull I would like to take the final lead and wrap it up with a letter to WTC. WTC Passport lottery gives everyone in the USA a chance to do Ironman Kona. The intent is to let the person who could not otherwise = win a qualifier get a try at the big one. WTC statements (sometimes defensive) in prior publications, as well as in Inside Ironman (= their official newsletter) promote the idea of offering a once in a lifetime experience through the lottery. About 20% of the 185 lucky winners last year had done Ironman Kona once or more before. About 30% of all California winners. This da= ta is obtained by comparing the list of winners in Inside Ironman to the bios of participants handed out at Kona. The bio info is pr= obably drawn from the info sheets we submit. If prior Ironman races are not included in our input they would not show in the program=  The percent of prior participants may therefore be more than 20%. Take your own lottery list and do your own analysis on this year= s winners when you get the bio in Kona. The lottery, in general, is a dead horse well beaten. The outcome of the beating was a staunch defense on the part of WTC. They woul= d continue the lottery, period. I say beat it again, with a new stick. If WTC is true to what it says or even implies then exclude all prior Kona Ironmen from participation in the lottery. This takes a b= it of soul searching for some of us to support but think about it, I have been there too. Think about the spirit and if there must b= e a lottery let’s step back and let others participate. What is it to many of us but a back up to not winning a qualifier? Let’s tak= e the 50 bucks, invest in titanium and give a friend a shot. Really make it an opportunity for a ONCE IN A LIFETIME EXPERIENCE. This=  puts WTC between a rock and a hard place. WTC can say: We mean what we say and support what we imply. Then turn on the asterisk for qualification: What we said was experience=  of a lifetime not once in a life time experience. Read their newsletter and decide which variation of this idea they are promoting.=  If prior Ironmen are excluded, fewer would try the lottery. We are talking money here. We are also talking something else. The outc= ome looks difficult for WTC. It is hard to defend a noble objective (more implied than real) yet continue it in the face of denying = a more noble objective. Are you fulfilling a life long dream by giving 20% to those that did it before? Can you have your cake and e= at it too? This is one of those areas where they are a custodian of part of the Ironman spirit and it looks like spirit meets busine= ss head on. I propose: a. Reduce the number of Ironman Passport lottery spots by a percent that went to prior participants in Ironman. b. Put those spots into more qualifying races or put them in age groups that did not get a fair overall allocation of qualifiers las= t year. c. Continue to offer the Passport lottery with reduced spots but only to those that have never done Kona. or, d. Keep the same number of Passport lottery slots, exclude those that did Kona before and give a greater chance for a once in a life= time experience to more triathletes. There are other points I would like to make but this is sufficient to spread the feathers to the wind. If, in fact, this lead flies = I can become just one more guy to take a pull in the pace line with the remaining points. I launch this now in hope that it may be discussed at Kona this year and may reach WTC ears there. Finally! I ask for sensitivity to those who were fortunate enough to win the lottery this year and participate in the experience of = a lifetime. They won in accordance with the rules of entry and chance, regardless of whether they were there before or not. I person= ally would be proud to be on the course with anyone that had the courage to face the challenge. They won their qualifier in a differ= ent manner and have no less of a right to be there. Others will have a different opinion and may express it. Consider the spirit of = the sport before any comments that might diminish a lottery winner’s feeling of participation and equal accomplishment at the finish=  line. Respect on race day should and will be mutual, make it so now. If you are a lottery winner – have a great race and keep in mind it is a chance that lets you show what you’ve got. You win if you g= ive everything you have. I would like to see a different set of lottery rules next year. Offline input to me is fine. Tim Lester tel: 503-388-4203 fax: same, voice first followed by fumbling with the computer.

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Question:

This will be my first long course. Any tips you care to pass along to a back of the pack age grouper? G. Wassil    "Normal is a setting on your washing machine" – John P. McAfee

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mike & rob’s was my first triathlon ever!! (last year). the water was calm, bike and run course are very flat, wonderful people all the way around. best of all, since everyone is doing the long course there is plenty of room in the bike area for your bike (no pushing or shoving to get your bike in). this race got me hooked on triathlons!!! cool t-shirt, too. my only suggestion is to book a room now (if you’re from out of town) they fill up fast. do the race, you will not regret it… steve

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Has anyone done the short course of Mike and Rob’s Most Excellent Tri? Is it a good race for a first ocean swim (1/4 mile)? I have to choose betwenn that one on August 13 or Bonelli Park Steamboat Tri-Al (500yd lake swim — too warm for a wetsuit) on August 4.   Any opinions/recommendations would be appreciated. Tri-Turtle Susan Sanders

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I did the long course last year, however, a few in our club did the short course and liked it. MESP events are well managed and friendly to all levels of competitor. At that time of morning the ocean is calm. Last year it was about 67 deg. Good luck. Jim Duncan Paradox, LLC

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Question:

| Todd Jensen writes:

| …With an elite designation, if you didn’t place in the elite wave, | you would be dropped back with the age-groups (for that race). …. | | Do you mean that if Scott Tinley places 4th overall in a race and misses | an award by 1 spot, that he is then declared the winner of the 35-39 age | group? I wouldn’t like that too much. I can see how a top age-grouper | might consistently place in the top 10, but always out of the money. That | person should be able to get some glory for winning their age group because | work, family, and other commitments might not allow them to progress further | in the elite category. | | Todd, can you explain further how the elite designation would work, how | people would bounce back and forth between elite and age-group? they should do it the way the English First Division Football (soccer) is handled. That is, at the end of each year the bottom of the elites would become lowly age-groupers for the next year – and the best age-groupers (presumably out of the most competitive groups, 20-35) would become elites the next year. Chris — Ontario Telepresence Project, 2670 Queensview Dr., Ottawa, ON, K2B 8K1, CANADA

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they should do it the way the English First Division Football (soccer) is handled. That is, at the end of each year the bottom of the elites would become lowly age-groupers for the next year – and the best age-groupers (presumably out of the most competitive groups, 20-35) would become elites the next year. Chris

This seems to make more sense.  I currently get stuck racing against some people who I know used to be pro but the still consistantly win the age group.  Now, I would like it if they would be forced to race as an Elite so they can’t clean up year after year in the age group.  Then as their performance wanes they can move back down.  I’m getting kinda tired of racing against Pros who just don’t want to be classified as such for whatever reason (legal, emotional, or they just want to win). John K.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I currently get stuck racing against some people who I know used to be pro but the still consistantly win the age group.  Now, I would like it if they would be forced to race as an Elite so they can’t clean up year after year in the age group.  Then as their performance wanes they can move back down.  I’m getting kinda tired of racing against Pros who just don’t want to be classified as such for whatever reason (legal, emotional, or they just want to win). Some "former pros" simply enjoy the sport. They are working regular jobs and aren’t racing for money anymore, but they  still want to keep in shape and continue to race. They don’t train any more than the average working-class triathlete. In fact, often much less. So, they are a bit more gifted than most and kick our ass, so what? Maybe we should use these guys and ladies as inspiration to improve instead of getting bent out of shape about it. Just because someone was a pro for a few years doesn’t mean they are a different species for life.

I always find it amazing how important it is for many people to place in their age-group.  If someone consistantly wins their age-group, many of the people behind the winner complain that person should be pro.   Sport is meant to be fun, and in the scheme of things, and being beat out for an award in your age-group shouldn’t be the end of the world.  Wake up and smell the coffee – just because you’re a triathlete and may race fast, doesn’t mean you have any more right to winning then the next person. Some interesting studies have shown that if given a choice between winning a race or not winning but having a personal best, most people would choose to win. Todd Jensen                                   o AT&T Bell Labs                  ___^o_    __o    <| Naperville, IL                      _ <_    _

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: P.S. A quick afterthought.  Have an elite qualification system:  if you : win your age-group 3x (irregardless of whether the race was sanctioned) : you qualify for the elite catagory.  It is the athlete’s decision to move : up.  Once elite if you fail to be in the top 10 for 3 or more races, then : you qualify to move down.  Again it is the athlete’s decision to move : down.  You can make only 1 move per season. I believe the current system requires a top-10 finish in at least 3 races having more than a certain number of finishers will qualify one for a pro license (plus $130-150 to Tri-Fed!).  Once a pro you are stuck for that year, which is probably the better way to go. Now, for these other comments.  I tried to refrain, but I can’t anymore.   I am a licensed pro that most will never see in a magazine, yet I probably make more money than 95% of the US pros.  I work a full-time job (as an attorney), and I race triathlons strictly for FUN.  Occasionally I win some money, but it rarely covers my racing expenses.  Sponsors sometimes help me out, but I’m hesistant to become too committed to a sponsor becuase I want to do certain races because I want to.  There are other pros like myself that have full-time jobs, and merely race for the fun of it.  While I’m usually competitive with all but the top pros, there are also times when some of the age-groupers beat me.  I do not understand the complaints of some that their top competitors should be forced into the professional division.  What a cop out!  How can once possibly want to win an award under those circumstances?  Most of the top age-groupers have jobs just like you.  Whatever happened to working hard to achieve your goals, rather than eliminating the competition?  The reason I decided to race pro was that I wanted the challenge of racing against the very best.  That doesn’t mean that others of similar ability should be forced to do the same.  That’s just like the complaints I’ve heard at smaller races that certain pros or elite amateurs shouldn’t be competing at such a small race.  Why not use your defeats as an impetus to improve your own abilities, rather thanmaking excuses that someone was too good for you to have to race against them?  Your main competitor is not the guy on the $4000 carbin fiber bike with the composite wheels a sponsor gave him.  Your main competitor is YOURSELF.  Remember your first race when your only goal was to convince your body that you could really finish?  That should never change, other than now you try to convince your body that it can go a little faster.  That doesn’t mean that beating your other competitors should not also be a goal, but you’ll never beat them until you convince your body that you can.  By the way, does some of the reasoning in this thread mean that when I give up racing as a pro I can no longer race triathlons?  

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Maybe some Cat pro-I, II, III, Masters system like USCF bike racing would be a solution? That is, if this is even a problem. JJ

NOOOOOO! Then we would all turn into jerks like road cyclists! The hierarchial system of bicycle racing is what makes THAT sport so nausiating, though I guess on that scale it’s the only practical way of handling it. I think its great that total novices like me are able to "compete" in the same events as the "pros / elite" etc. It’s a real boost for example on an out and back run to see the pros come in and go.. "Wow there goes so and so" (Though I must admit I am not to the point of recognizing anyone yet.) Triathlon is great because REAL people who have regular jobs do Ironman, whereas in cycling, ONLY the pros (not even "elite") do races such as Tour De France etc. Enjoy the sport while it is still on this smaller scale!!! As far as the classification / elite wave goes, why don’t they just have a first wave of pro/elite for anyone competing for prize money, sponsored or not. They could even have age group awards within that wave, and still give "prizes" like watches and helmets to the "age grouppers" in the following waves. Make the entry fee for the first wave be slightly higher for those competing for cash. Blah Blah Blah Quit whining and have FUN!

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<snip :What I really want to know is — Is a very talented nationally-ranked :age-grouper (like an Anne Curi, Debbie Hornsby, Maryellen Powers, Tim and :Tony DeBoom, Jeff Cuddeback or the those profiled in Triathlete etc., :racing as an amateur really a problem at all? : I don’t think it is a problem.  That’s why it should be the athlete’s own choice whether to race pro or not.  The only thing I would like to see different than today is that there would be some minimum (non-financial) qualifications to being catagorized as an pro/elite. Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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| | P.S. A quick afterthought.  Have an elite qualification system:  if you | win your age-group 3x (irregardless of whether the race was sanctioned) | you qualify for the elite catagory.  It is the athlete’s decision to move | up.  Once elite if you fail to be in the top 10 for 3 or more races, then | you qualify to move down.  Again it is the athlete’s decision to move | down.  You can make only 1 move per season. I think if they were to adopt the kind of thing we’ve been discussing, they’d probably only want to allow a ‘change of classification’ at one time during the year – for everyone all at once. In the off-season (for each country). Then it would be easier to organize the coming year – for everyone. The analogy I made earlier to the English First Division works, in this respect. Chris — Ontario Telepresence Project, 2670 Queensview Dr., Ottawa, ON, K2B 8K1, CANADA

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<post regarding not allowing high dollar pros into the olympics deleted :What do you do for a living? Whatever it is….how about every four years :you do it for free and I’ll sell a few hundred million dollars worth of :tickets and TV so people can watch you do it…AND I’ll keep all the :money. : : How much money did Lance Armstrong make by competing in Spain? (especially compared to ‘93 or ‘94).  How many swimmers share the wealth at the olympics? The facts you point out are sadly true, but really miss the (olympic/idealisit) spirit of the original argument.    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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Brug) writes: P.S. A quick afterthought.  Have an elite qualification system:  if you win your age-group 3x (irregardless of whether the race was sanctioned) you qualify for the elite catagory.  It is the athlete’s decision to move up.  Once elite if you fail to be in the top 10 for 3 or more races, then you qualify to move down.  Again it is the athlete’s decision to move down.  You can make only 1 move per season. I think this subject deserves some thought. And I agree with Pat on most of his points.

This looks like a reasonable solution to me.  I think Pat is on the right track.       What I really want to know is — Is a very talented nationally-ranked age-grouper (like an Anne Curi, Debbie Hornsby, Maryellen Powers, Tim and Tony DeBoom, Jeff Cuddeback or the those profiled in Triathlete etc., racing as an amateur really a problem at all? What if they are busy,involved with their studies and careers and don’t really feel like racing on the pro circuit. After all, they’d have to pay for plane fares and hotels (unless you’re in the  top 5 at ITU World Cup) to get to the big prize money races. Maybe they really can’t afford it.

No one said that they have to race the "pro" circut.  All that people are saying is that if there is an elite wave they should race in it.  JJ, I think you’re really getting confused with the Pro/Elite thing.  Just because they have achieved a high level of racing doesn’t mean they have to become "pro".  Just like running, there is an elite level that in a race with out prize money(even some with), the elites will include the top racers; pro or not. Pro is mearly a designation for legal(?) reasons. A Pro is an elite but an elite is not necessarily a pro. I think that the top age-groupers (all divisions) have attracted a lot of favorable publicity to age-group racing and have added another dimension in high-performance racing.

Agreed.       Maybe some Cat pro-I, II, III, Masters system like USCF bike racing would be a solution?  That is, if this is even a problem. JJ

I think Pat’s original solution at the top is probably the best. It still maintains the age-groups (which I think is a good thing) yet allows for a higher level of competition for the best athletes. I’ve raced elite at a race or two and had a blast.  I didn’t place very well (but not last), but I was having so much fun I didn’t care.  I think having something like an elite category is a great opportunity for a different kind of racing. John K.

Response:

-Jensen,T.R.) writes:

: :I think that swimming has this issue handled pretty well. :Correct me if I’m wrong…The USS is the elite/Olympic arm of the sport :with its own swim meets and federation. : I am not absolutely sure where everything currently stands, but I was a USS (United States Swimming) head coach about 8 or 9 years ago and are AGE GROUP (7-18 yr old b&g) team was sanctioned directly by USS– which included state champs to beginners of all ages.  All (age-group) meets were also USS sanctioned.  I don’t believe at least at that time that the USS was only for elites/Olympics.  However, we were obviously separate from the US masters, who have there own separate events.  USS also has a senior (or open) division which is a part of age-group swimming which I described above and this is where the elites and collegiate (off-season) swimmers competed.    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

Response:

Brug) writes:

P.S. A quick afterthought.  Have an elite qualification system:  if you win your age-group 3x (irregardless of whether the race was sanctioned) you qualify for the elite catagory.  It is the athlete’s decision to move up.  Once elite if you fail to be in the top 10 for 3 or more races, then you qualify to move down.  Again it is the athlete’s decision to move down.  You can make only 1 move per season. I think this subject deserves some thought. And I agree with Pat on most of his points. What I really want to know is — Is a very talented nationally-ranked age-grouper (like an Anne Curi, Debbie Hornsby, Maryellen Powers, Tim and Tony DeBoom, Jeff Cuddeback or the those profiled in Triathlete etc., racing as an amateur really a problem at all? What if they are busy,involved with their studies and careers and don’t really feel like racing on the pro circuit. After all, they’d have to pay for plane fares and hotels (unless you’re in the  top 5 at ITU World Cup) to get to the big prize money races. Maybe they really can’t afford it. Plus, with all the rule changes and confusion, maybe they don’t want to get involved in ITU drafting races. Some have expressed this concern to me. I think that the top age-groupers (all divisions) have attracted a lot of favorable publicity to age-group racing and have added another dimension in high-performance racing. Maybe some Cat pro-I, II, III, Masters system like USCF bike racing would be a solution?  That is, if this is even a problem. JJ

Response:

: Todd Jensen writes:

: I always find it amazing how important it is for many people to : place in their age-group.  If someone consistantly wins their age-group, : many of the people behind the winner complain that person should be pro.   : Sport is meant to be fun, and in the scheme of things, and being beat out : for an award in your age-group shouldn’t be the end of the world.  Wake up : and smell the coffee … : OK, good point, I’m waking up (it helps that I had coffee with me when I : read this). In 9 years of competing in multi-sport events, I’ve only had : one year, about 3 years ago, that I ever placed in any events. Prior to : that year, I never concerned myself with placing, just doing my best and : having fun. Since that one year, I’ve struggled with being a middle-of-the- : packer again. I still have fun at the race and am happy when I’ve done : my best, but I admit I get frustrated by not placing. Maybe that’s the : same frustration other people here on the Net have felt. Thanks for waking : me up! Now for another cup of coffee (the crummy office stuff this time)… IMO, the problem is that we want some way to judge our performance.  In running races, we each know what our goals are.  It may be 40′ in a 10K or 2:30 for a marathon.  Courses are each a little different, but the effects on our times are usually small and can be accounted for.   USCF-style 40K time trials are also pretty standard most of the time. Multisport events are different.  Every course is unique.  The distances and terrain for each leg vary from event to event.  Worse yet, the stated distances are often wrong.  It can even be meaningless to compare times for the same course if it’s windy one year and calm the next.  In the end, all we can do is compare our time to those of others in the same event. I agree that we should view these races as personal challanges.  However, it’s hard not to become obsessed with the competition when that’s how we’re judging our success. Dave LaPorte U. of Minn.

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: : I currently get stuck racing : against some people who I know used to be pro but the still : consistantly win the age group. <snip : Some "former pros" simply enjoy the sport. They are working regular jobs : and aren’t racing for money anymore… I have been intrigued by the discussion about the pros wanting the elite catagory and there have been many good suggestions about how to chose elites– at the WORLD level only. The major wrinkle that springs to mind is that there are elites on local, state, regional, national and world levels.  In NM, there are *local* races that have elite catagories, TriFed regional champsionships with elite catagories and of course there are the well known national & world-class races.  While the infamous *racerX* maybe elite at the regional level, but is not an elite at the world level.  He can dominate the region, win most of the regional prizes– but on a global scale he is an age-grouper.  The problem is for most local, regional and a lot of national races, the world class elites don’t come.  Note: a lot of these local – regional races are TriFed sanctioned which further muddles the issues. I hope no-one comes up with the bright idea of using the TriFed ranking system to pick the elites from the age-groupers.  Frankly, the system just doesn’t work very well.  Personally, I compete in the elite wave whenever one is available– it is just fun duking it out with the top regional athletes.  Also, I have never made it to the rankings because I never do enough *qualifying races* although this year my lowest elite placing was 5th and highest was 2nd. Until nearly every race is sanctioned or scored nationally some way, I think we’ll have to rely on the honor system for letting athletes *to elite or not elite*. P.S. A quick afterthought.  Have an elite qualification system:  if you win your age-group 3x (irregardless of whether the race was sanctioned) you qualify for the elite catagory.  It is the athlete’s decision to move up.  Once elite if you fail to be in the top 10 for 3 or more races, then you qualify to move down.  Again it is the athlete’s decision to move down.  You can make only 1 move per season.    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

Response:

(Chuck Higgins) writes:

 :Now, realistically, we could do something like tennis.  The pro players :who wish to compete in the Olympics must declare they will compete and :they must meet certain :monetary guidelines for the Olympic year.  I think the triathletes could :do something :similar.  But, by the year 2000 all this may be moot. Hey Chuck: What do you do for a living? Whatever it is….how about every four years you do it for free and I’ll sell a few hundred million dollars worth of tickets and TV so people can watch you do it…AND I’ll keep all the money. Food for thought… Scott Zagarino

Response:

Todd Jensen writes: I always find it amazing how important it is for many people to place in their age-group.  If someone consistantly wins their age-group, many of the people behind the winner complain that person should be pro.   Sport is meant to be fun, and in the scheme of things, and being beat out for an award in your age-group shouldn’t be the end of the world.  Wake up and smell the coffee …

OK, good point, I’m waking up (it helps that I had coffee with me when I read this). In 9 years of competing in multi-sport events, I’ve only had one year, about 3 years ago, that I ever placed in any events. Prior to that year, I never concerned myself with placing, just doing my best and having fun. Since that one year, I’ve struggled with being a middle-of-the- packer again. I still have fun at the race and am happy when I’ve done my best, but I admit I get frustrated by not placing. Maybe that’s the same frustration other people here on the Net have felt. Thanks for waking me up! Now for another cup of coffee (the crummy office stuff this time)…                            _ <_         <               ___/o__    ( )/( )       /

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I currently get stuck racing against some people who I know used to be pro but the still consistantly win the age group.  Now, I would like it if they would be forced to race as an Elite so they can’t clean up year after year in the age group.  Then as their performance wanes they can move back down.  I’m getting kinda tired of racing against Pros who just don’t want to be classified as such for whatever reason (legal, emotional, or they just want to win). Some "former pros" simply enjoy the sport. They are working regular jobs and aren’t racing for money anymore, but they  still want to keep in shape and continue to race. They don’t train any more than the average working-class triathlete. In fact, often much less. So, they are a bit more gifted than most and kick our ass, so what? Maybe we should use these guys and ladies as inspiration to improve instead of getting bent out of shape about it. Just because someone was a pro for a few years doesn’t mean they are a different species for life. I always find it amazing how important it is for many people to place in their age-group.  If someone consistantly wins their age-group, many of the people behind the winner complain that person should be pro.   Sport is meant to be fun, and in the scheme of things, and being beat out for an award in your age-group shouldn’t be the end of the world.  Wake up and smell the coffee – just because you’re a triathlete and may race fast, doesn’t mean you have any more right to winning then the next person. Some interesting studies have shown that if given a choice between winning a race or not winning but having a personal best, most people would choose to win.

Whoa, wait a minute.  I actually like racing against these guys. It may not have sounded that way, but its actually nice to see how close I can get.  But I think these people can have just as much fun racing as an Elite.  I’ve raced as an Elite in a race or two and had more fun then racing as an age grouper.  I had a blast actually. I didn’t place very well but I didn’t come in last either.  I didn’t care how I placed because I was having so much fun.  That’s why I don’t understand it.  Why would the former pros not race as elite. It could just be me missing something.  I didn’t say that they should always race as a Pro.  But if they are performing consistantly they should move up.  Do you agree that if there is an elite wave and the top 3 in an age group are in the top 5 overall that something just doesn’t seem right?  Just for clarification, I like to place well but it’s not that big of a deal.  My performance flucuates quite a bit so my first priority is to have a good race.  In fact, even   if I think I had a good race (I know how fast I should go), I’m happy even if I don’t make it in the top 20 in my age group. My goal is to come across the finish line with a smile on my face for whatever reason. (I’ve gotten a flat in a race or two and I’m still smiling because even though I my have come in at 102nd place, I still think I performed well.). So there, John K.

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Here’s a topic I’m sure will raise some interesting discussion. What athletes do you see competing in 2000 (rather, what type)? Some Olympic sports, such as  swimming, hold to very strict amateurism. Others, like basketball and tennis, allow million dollar athletes to compete. What do you think will happen to triathlon? I.M.O., the spirit of the Games calls for amateur athletes to compete. I think  the protests to allow professionals to play are now largely uncalled for. T The idea behind allowing them in the first place was that the economic systems  of communist countries allowed them to breed "professional" athletes… chil children were raised and their costs of living paid for because they were athletes. I don’t know about this argument… consider the living/training conditions of a communist athlete and then compare them to those of Michael Jordan. Doesn’t seem to be a correlation. One’s making zillions, the other is being fed, clothed, and sheltered. Anyway, most communist systems have fallen,  so the whole arguement is even more moot. My one disclaimer is that I do agree with allowing a certain amount of money to be received as a "training stipend." Several sports allow this, because being at the Olympic level requires that the athlete quit work and do li nothing but train. When you have rent to pay, that can be expensive. This is also another possible arguement for letting pros participate, but the amount of money I’m talking about is usually just enough to get by (sometimes less). Just my $.02 worth. Acey Albert U. of Florida TriGators

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    Who says that Olympics have to be amateur?  They surely weren’t back in ancient Greece – an Olympic Champion was housed, fed and treated very, very well for the rest of his life ,not to mention getting statues of himself (sorry, they didn’t understand that women are great athletes as well) in the center of their hometown.  The reason that "amateur" came into the picture with the Olympics was in 1896 when the Modern Olympic era began.  I really don’t know too many "amateur" athletes who would not accept money to do what they do – i.e. professional.  By the way, what is the difference between a top amateur who is sponsored ( given, housing, paying for races-flyning,food, lodging, given products) and a professional?  I really don’t see one,except that the amateur doesn’t have a card that says he can take pro prize money.  Most professionals really have less than that – because it’s hard as sh*t to find a good sponsor.  Well, that’s what I think. Neal Henderson PSU Triathlon Club

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 I currently get stuck racing against some people who I know used to be pro but the still consistantly win the age group.  Now, I would like it if they would be forced to race as an Elite so they can’t clean up year after year in the age group.  Then as their performance wanes they can move back down.  I’m getting kinda tired of racing against Pros who just don’t want to be classified as such for whatever reason (legal, emotional, or they just want to win). Some "former pros" simply enjoy the sport. They are working regular jobs and aren’t racing for money anymore, but they  still want to keep in shape and continue to race. They don’t train any more than the average working-class triathlete. In fact, often much less.  So, they are a bit more gifted than most and kick our ass, so what? Maybe we should use these guys and ladies as inspiration to improve instead of getting bent out of shape about it. Just because someone was a pro for a few years doesn’t mean they are a different species for life. Emilio DeSoto is back as an agegrouper, so is Liz Bulman, Karen Chequer-Pfieffer and others. They aren’t trying to steal the limelight (what little there is of it) they’re just having fun. I say welcome back.

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(-Jensen,T.R.) writes:

I think that swimming has this issue handled pretty well. Correct me if I’m wrong…The USS is the elite/Olympic arm of the sport with its own swim meets and federation.  The US Masters, which includes most of us I suppose, is the federation for the swimmers that aren’t in NCAA or elite meets. US Masters has its own meets–local, regional, Nationals and even Worlds– and a magazine (Swim?) that deals primarily with masters racing and training. P.S. Have any of you checked out the chatter in rec.sport.swim? Pretty wild….lots of drug use and (anti-Chinese) racisim accusations…

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Hey,   Well, I must say, I’m truly psyched up about the 2000 Olympics and the triathlon that will be included.  I think it is time!   With regards to the amateur/pro status of athletes, let me just say that I’m a hardcore believer in the Olympics as an amateur competition only.  The Dream Team is crap!  Okay, I’ll get off the pulpit.   Now, realistically, we could do something like tennis.  The pro players who wish to compete in the Olympics must declare they will compete and they must meet certain monetary guidelines for the Olympic year.  I think the triathletes could do something similar.  But, by the year 2000 all this may be moot. Chuck Higgins

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(-Jensen,T.R.) writes: I think that swimming has this issue handled pretty well. Correct me if I’m wrong…The USS is the elite/Olympic arm of the sport with its own swim meets and federation. The US Masters, which includes most of us I suppose, is the federation for the swimmers that aren’t in NCAA or elite meets.

Well, this is mostly correct. I guess what you really mean is that USS is the elite arm of the sport for those over 18 years old. Since the USS also "governs" almost all age-group racing in the country. Wait, I guess that you could consider the USS the elite age-group system also. There are many many rec and summer swim leagues that have nothing to do with USS. (Until someone like Matt Biondi comes out of one and starts setting world records . Why isn’t there a similar program for age-group (ie under 10-18) triathletes? Maybe it’s too expensive to buy little Jonny a new bike every time he grows out of the old one… just FYI, myke morgan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -US Masters has its own meets–local, regional, Nationals and even Worlds– and a magazine (Swim?) that deals primarily with masters racing and training. P.S. Have any of you checked out the chatter in rec.sport.swim? Pretty wild….lots of drug use and (anti-Chinese) racisim accusations…

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[stuff about allowing only amateurs in the Olympics deleted]

The problem with allowing only "amateurs" in the Olympics is there is a very fuzzy line in most sports between pros and amateurs.   In triathlon, some amateurs make more than some pros and train/race almost full-time. Are they still to be considered "amateur"?  In many sports, the pros are so far ahead of the others, it’s no contest as to who I would rather see (e.g. basketball).  In other sports, there is no real pro division but mnay of the top amateurs make decent amounts of money (e.g. track and field, swimming).   I like the suggestion the pros from the US are voting on – they are trying to get rid of the pro designation and rename it elite.  The pros and top amateurs of today would be lumped together as the elite.  This is to help both the pros and top amateurs.  At some races an amateur may win overall, but because the pros went off first, no one knows (e.g. Wendy’s Triathlon 94). At other races, the people who could be placing in the pro wave hang back and stay amateur to clean up and get the publicity.  With an elite designation, if you didn’t place in the elite wave, your would be dropped back with the age-groups (for that race).  If you raced as an age-grouper, but did well, you may be invited to compete as an elite.  Kind of like a PROs/1/2 field in USCF racing. In my opinion, each country should get to send its best players (the elite). As long as the pros play by the same rules, the Olympics will remain a showcase for the best.  As far as arguments that amateurs no longer have something to train for (i.e. the Olympics), they can train to be the best in their sport and compete with the world’s best at the Olympics. Todd Jensen                                    o ILL650 1A-322                ___^o_    __o    <| (708) 979-1254                       _ <_    _

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When the Olympic triathlon trials rolls around in about 6 years, you can bet that amateur and professional alike will be eligible to compete, regardless of the professional’s income.  We want are best athletes to compete in the Olympics, regardless of amateur status, right? — HKS WEST, Inc.                                  Phone: (510) 794-5891 Suite 205                                       3900 Newpark Mall Road                   Newark, California 94560

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Todd Jensen writes: …With an elite designation, if you didn’t place in the elite wave, you would be dropped back with the age-groups (for that race). ….

Do you mean that if Scott Tinley places 4th overall in a race and misses an award by 1 spot, that he is then declared the winner of the 35-39 age group? I wouldn’t like that too much. I can see how a top age-grouper might consistently place in the top 10, but always out of the money. That person should be able to get some glory for winning their age group because work, family, and other commitments might not allow them to progress further in the elite category. Todd, can you explain further how the elite designation would work, how people would bounce back and forth between elite and age-group?                            _ <_         <               ___/o__    ( )/( )       /

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