Question:

Mark, Yes, but if I beat you in a race by running strategically, I still beat you, and most would consider me the superior runner.  Would you expect me to not drop you on a hill if I could, since this wouldn’t "even the odds"? Owen McCall "Get away from that water table!"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ahhh…  but let’s even the odds by giving the Gazelle a gourd of water Sounds like the victim was defeated strategically rather than "outrun". — mark Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate. There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better Owen McCall (snip) In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate. There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better

But, if a hungry lion happened to show up while the guys were jogging after the gazelle what would the lion be having for lunch, gazelle or human? Who is the better runner then? It’s a bit like asking who is the better runner, Maurice Greene or Khalid Khannouchi. They’re both just better at what they do – neither is a better "runner" than the other. Perhaps your question should have been, which has a better combination of endurance and intelligence, the human or the gazelle? — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

Response:

Sorry, I still don’t get it.  What do you mean by hip rotation?  What I visualize when you say that is the kind of motion in your hips you would need in order to go from sitting with your legs out in front of you to sitting in the lotus position.  That can’t be right, so could you try

Imagine your hips locked and always perpenticular to the path you are running. Your legs would have a limited reach forward. Now imagine your hips rotating around its axis somewhat with each stride. Now, the legs are able to reach forward much farther. You can notice this while walking. jack

Response:

Ahhh…  but let’s even the odds by giving the Gazelle a gourd of water Sounds like the victim was defeated strategically rather than "outrun". — mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate. There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better Owen McCall (snip) In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

Response:

Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate.  There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better Owen McCall

(snip) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

Response:

Interesting  stuff, Fred.  I agree that we human’s can learn a lot from studying the ‘ancient runners’ — which is just about any animal that can develop 15+mph speed over ground. We are new runners.  In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This brings up a further interesting question of where the energy expended in running actually goes: is most of the energy used in generating forward motion (I assume by the calves, hamstrings and glutes) or is the energy involved in pulling the leg itself forward for each new step (with which muscles? the quads, abs and, to an extent, shins?) a significant part of the total energy use. If, as your post suggests, little energy is used in actually moving the leg forward for the next step then any increase in stride length is basically "free" extra speed. Anyway, I think I’ll be seeing if I can do this at all in practice tonight’s fartlek run (always a good session for trying out new things)… Ok.  This is as good a thread as any to dump this on all of you. A runner moving at steady speed on level ground does no useful work.  His potential energy doesn’t change from one step to the next as long as he doesn’t go up or downhill, and at steady speed, his kinetic energy doesn’t change.  This means his efficiency (the ratio of output power to input power) is zero.  If we’re going to talk about this, we have to use another word, say ‘economy.’ Common sense tells us that he expends energy though, and the rate of expenditure is related to his speed over the ground and the economy of his gait. But what are the mechanics of that expenditure, and what are the elements that contribute to economy?  In the current r.r canon, proper gait has footstrike occurring immediately below the center of gravity and the linkage between center of gravity and the foot contact patch elongating at a rate just enough to maintain the center of gravity at a constant distance from the ground (no head bobbing.)  If we think about the desirability of the leg to act like a wheel with the center of gravity at the axle, we have to say that it’s nothing like a wheel unless we say that we’re going to elongate the spokes to the contact patch somehow to accommodate changing angle. So how does this happen?  The ‘linkage’ includes the pelvis, upper and lower leg bones, ankle and toe.  ’Elongation’ means some combination of rotation of the pelvis as discussed in this thread (moving the push-off hip joint rearward relative to the center of gravity), rotation of the pelvis about the fore-and-aft axis (moving the push-off hip joint down relative the the center of gravity), locking the knee, fully extending the ankle by contracting the hamstring and glute, and finally push-off with the toe. <digression  Some time ago, I think that it was in the triathlon group, there was a discussion about the desirability  of stretching the ankle in extension for runners.  The conclusion was that for runners, it was unnecessary, but for tris, it was desirable because extended ankles made for a more effective kick in the swim.  But if the above linkage model has any validity for runners, too, the members opposing the contraction of the hams and glutes should be as supple as possible. </digression With this motion, energy is expended in the following way.  In the ideal case in which the center of gravity has no up and down motion, the net vertical force on the push-off contact patch must be equal to the runner’s weight.  Isaac says so.  It’s the elongation of the linkage against this vertical force that expends the energy – force times distance, just like in high school physics.  Why does the rate of energy expenditure go up at higher speeds?  Higher speeds mean longer strides, longer strides mean bigger angles for the linkage to work through (it takes zero energy to support the center of gravity as it passes over the contact patch; it takes a rapidly increasing amount as the contact patch moves out behind).  qed. With the completely unscientific guidance of maybe 10 or 15 thousand miles of running with huskies and malamutes, I claim that economy comes from exploiting small motions of large muscle groups, and, at the appropriate times, locked out joints.  Arguably, the canine trot is the most economical way of getting over the countryside (1000 miles in ten days on kibbles and some salmon strips), and, I claim, it’s because they’ve become masters at the strategy.  At the trot, the entire complex action of their forequarters comes from a periodic flick of the shoulders.  Everything else, bones, joints, feet, pads simply fly forward into place and lock out at the instant they are needed.  In the rear quarters, things aren’t quite so simple, but the motion is dominated by the hams and the rump muscles. Dogs have been working on propulsion for a few million years longer than we have, so maybe there’s something to learn from them.  Our hams and glutes might be the most economical muscle groups at extending the linkage, but the large muscles of the torso work too.  I suspect that the least economical groups are the quads and whatever else is required to support the bobbing bent-knee bent-over gait such as the one I use cresting the hill at mile 7. It’s sometimes mentioned (but somehow the idea evidently hasn’t entered the canon) in the ‘cadence’ threads that the preferred (high) cadence is no mistake.  It derives (those contributors say) from the pendulum period of the free swinging leg.  If this be true, then the most economical way for biped to swing the leg forward is to flick that hip joint forward (and maybe up a bit) and wait for the leg to follow through.  No quads, no psoas, no nothing except the small motions of the large muscles of the torso working against the counter rotations of the shoulders and the motion of the arms. So far, I haven’t seen much discussion about whether or not the knee should lock out at this point, but ‘economy’ would certainly argue for it. Advice is usually worth what you pay for it. Fred Klingener Roxbury CT

Response:

Also remember, 8% of of your energy expenditure is to push air away (when running distance) and up to 15% if running 100 meters at good speed. (From ‘Lore of Running’)

Response:

With this motion, energy is expended in the following way.  In the ideal case in which the center of gravity has no up and down motion, the net vertical force on the push-off contact patch must be equal to the runner’s weight.  Isaac says so.  It’s the elongation of the linkage against this vertical force that expends the energy – force times distance, just like in high school physics.  Why does the rate of energy expenditure go up at higher speeds?  Higher speeds mean longer strides, longer strides mean bigger angles for the linkage to work through (it takes zero energy to support the center of gravity as it passes over the contact patch; it takes a rapidly increasing amount as the contact patch moves out behind).  qed.

To extend what you say here, there must always be some vertical motion because there are periods (however brief) during each stride when both feet are off the ground (let’s call it ‘flight time’) and at this moment the body is, effectively, in free fall. In theory also, as the stride length becomes longer the ratio of ground contact time to flight time reduces so for an equal cadence more energy needs to be expended combatting the effects of gravity. It would also be true that for a reduced cadence the flight time would be longer which maybe partly explains why higher cadences are more efficient, especially as the energy required to combat gravity would be proportional to the flight time squared. — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

Response:

Yes but in a slightly different context. When I used to run competitive 400m’s, I felt warming up my hips so they would open up was my most important preparation for a race. Even now, I try to open them up to run faster without more effort.

Interesting.  I seem to recall that Australian Cathy Freeman had pronounced hip rotation on the final straight of her Olympic 400m final.  It pretty much looked to me like it was the difference in the race.

Response:

I getting a little confused by this thread… when you’re talking about ‘opening the hips’, do you mean they rotate more with the legs, or that they allow more forwards/backwards leg movement or something else? Could someone explain further? — Regards, Barry

Barry…. That’s exactly right — the hips rotate more with the legs *AND* allow more forward/backward leg movement.  By relaxing the hips and allowing them to rotate more freely with each stride, you are essentially adding length (and leverage) to your "legs".  As Ozzie mentioned above, picture your legs starting at the bottom of your rib cage instead of at your pelvic bone.  For me, that’s 10 inches of DESPERATELY NEEDED leg length (short inseam here). This rotation also seems to transfer some of the workload from the leg/hip muscles to the trunk. Seems to me this is an absolutely critical issue of form and mechanics.  If you take two identical runners (same physical characteristics and fitness) and runner A has limited hip rotation and runner B runs with relaxed, freely-rotating hips, runner B will have a longer stride without any additional effort required.  A 6 inch longer stride with the same cadence yields a pace difference of 10% for me.  If all I have to do is relax and be conscious of hip rotation to get that extra 10% on my speed, it’s a gift I’ll gladly accept! — mark

Response:

This brings up a further interesting question of where the energy expended in running actually goes: is most of the energy used in generating forward motion (I assume by the calves, hamstrings and glutes) or is the energy involved in pulling the leg itself forward for each new step (with which muscles? the quads, abs and, to an extent, shins?) a significant part of the total energy use. If, as your post suggests, little energy is used in actually moving the leg forward for the next step then any increase in stride length is basically "free" extra speed. Anyway, I think I’ll be seeing if I can do this at all in practice tonight’s fartlek run (always a good session for trying out new things)…

Ok.  This is as good a thread as any to dump this on all of you. A runner moving at steady speed on level ground does no useful work.  His potential energy doesn’t change from one step to the next as long as he doesn’t go up or downhill, and at steady speed, his kinetic energy doesn’t change.  This means his efficiency (the ratio of output power to input power) is zero.  If we’re going to talk about this, we have to use another word, say ‘economy.’ Common sense tells us that he expends energy though, and the rate of expenditure is related to his speed over the ground and the economy of his gait. But what are the mechanics of that expenditure, and what are the elements that contribute to economy?  In the current r.r canon, proper gait has footstrike occurring immediately below the center of gravity and the linkage between center of gravity and the foot contact patch elongating at a rate just enough to maintain the center of gravity at a constant distance from the ground (no head bobbing.)  If we think about the desirability of the leg to act like a wheel with the center of gravity at the axle, we have to say that it’s nothing like a wheel unless we say that we’re going to elongate the spokes to the contact patch somehow to accommodate changing angle. So how does this happen?  The ‘linkage’ includes the pelvis, upper and lower leg bones, ankle and toe.  ’Elongation’ means some combination of rotation of the pelvis as discussed in this thread (moving the push-off hip joint rearward relative to the center of gravity), rotation of the pelvis about the fore-and-aft axis (moving the push-off hip joint down relative the the center of gravity), locking the knee, fully extending the ankle by contracting the hamstring and glute, and finally push-off with the toe. <digression  Some time ago, I think that it was in the triathlon group, there was a discussion about the desirability  of stretching the ankle in extension for runners.  The conclusion was that for runners, it was unnecessary, but for tris, it was desirable because extended ankles made for a more effective kick in the swim.  But if the above linkage model has any validity for runners, too, the members opposing the contraction of the hams and glutes should be as supple as possible. </digression With this motion, energy is expended in the following way.  In the ideal case in which the center of gravity has no up and down motion, the net vertical force on the push-off contact patch must be equal to the runner’s weight.  Isaac says so.  It’s the elongation of the linkage against this vertical force that expends the energy – force times distance, just like in high school physics.  Why does the rate of energy expenditure go up at higher speeds?  Higher speeds mean longer strides, longer strides mean bigger angles for the linkage to work through (it takes zero energy to support the center of gravity as it passes over the contact patch; it takes a rapidly increasing amount as the contact patch moves out behind).  qed. With the completely unscientific guidance of maybe 10 or 15 thousand miles of running with huskies and malamutes, I claim that economy comes from exploiting small motions of large muscle groups, and, at the appropriate times, locked out joints.  Arguably, the canine trot is the most economical way of getting over the countryside (1000 miles in ten days on kibbles and some salmon strips), and, I claim, it’s because they’ve become masters at the strategy.  At the trot, the entire complex action of their forequarters comes from a periodic flick of the shoulders.  Everything else, bones, joints, feet, pads simply fly forward into place and lock out at the instant they are needed.  In the rear quarters, things aren’t quite so simple, but the motion is dominated by the hams and the rump muscles. Dogs have been working on propulsion for a few million years longer than we have, so maybe there’s something to learn from them.  Our hams and glutes might be the most economical muscle groups at extending the linkage, but the large muscles of the torso work too.  I suspect that the least economical groups are the quads and whatever else is required to support the bobbing bent-knee bent-over gait such as the one I use cresting the hill at mile 7. It’s sometimes mentioned (but somehow the idea evidently hasn’t entered the canon) in the ‘cadence’ threads that the preferred (high) cadence is no mistake.  It derives (those contributors say) from the pendulum period of the free swinging leg.  If this be true, then the most economical way for biped to swing the leg forward is to flick that hip joint forward (and maybe up a bit) and wait for the leg to follow through.  No quads, no psoas, no nothing except the small motions of the large muscles of the torso working against the counter rotations of the shoulders and the motion of the arms. So far, I haven’t seen much discussion about whether or not the knee should lock out at this point, but ‘economy’ would certainly argue for it. Advice is usually worth what you pay for it. Fred Klingener Roxbury CT

Response:

| That’s exactly right — the hips rotate more with the legs *AND* allow more | forward/backward leg movement.  By relaxing the hips and allowing them to | rotate more freely with each stride, you are essentially adding length (and | leverage) to your "legs". Sorry, I still don’t get it.  What do you mean by hip rotation?  What I visualize when you say that is the kind of motion in your hips you would need in order to go from sitting with your legs out in front of you to sitting in the lotus position.  That can’t be right, so could you try to describe it again? Zak

Response:

This brings up a further interesting question of where the energy expended in running actually goes: is most of the energy used in generating forward motion (I assume by the calves, hamstrings and glutes) or is the energy involved in pulling the leg itself forward for each new step (with which muscles? the quads, abs and, to an extent, shins?) a significant part of the total energy use. If, as your post suggests, little energy is used in actually moving the leg forward for the next step then any increase in stride length is basically "free" extra speed. Anyway, I think I’ll be seeing if I can do this at all in practice tonight’s fartlek run (always a good session for trying out new things)… — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I getting a little confused by this thread… when you’re talking about ‘opening the hips’, do you mean they rotate more with the legs, or that they allow more forwards/backwards leg movement or something else? Could someone explain further? — Regards, Barry Barry…. That’s exactly right — the hips rotate more with the legs *AND* allow more forward/backward leg movement.  By relaxing the hips and allowing them to rotate more freely with each stride, you are essentially adding length (and leverage) to your "legs".  As Ozzie mentioned above, picture your legs starting at the bottom of your rib cage instead of at your pelvic bone. For me, that’s 10 inches of DESPERATELY NEEDED leg length (short inseam here). This rotation also seems to transfer some of the workload from the leg/hip muscles to the trunk. Seems to me this is an absolutely critical issue of form and mechanics. If you take two identical runners (same physical characteristics and fitness) and runner A has limited hip rotation and runner B runs with relaxed, freely-rotating hips, runner B will have a longer stride without any additional effort required.  A 6 inch longer stride with the same cadence yields a pace difference of 10% for me.  If all I have to do is relax and be conscious of hip rotation to get that extra 10% on my speed, it’s a gift I’ll gladly accept! — mark

Response:

.. Seems to me this is an absolutely critical issue of form and mechanics. If you take two identical runners (same physical characteristics and fitness) and runner A has limited hip rotation and runner B runs with relaxed, freely-rotating hips, runner B will have a longer stride without any additional effort required.

Well, not quite, but the propulsion comes from the large muscle groups of the torso – a net plus. Fred

Response:

I made an interesting observation a few days ago.  (Please ignore any references to my HRM and treadmill — we’ll save those topics for another day.) I typically warm up (or transition from cycling to running) at a 8 minute mile pace for the first 5 minutes.  After a particularly difficult cycling session, my legs felt a little sluggish and I noticed my heart rate was hovering in the high 140s at the end of my 5 minute warm up period.  The run plan for the day called for 45 minutes at 7 minute mile pace.  At the 5 minute mark I increased the pace from 8mm to 7mm.  I felt the usual struggle for a few moments until I found my "groove" and fully adjusted to the new pace.  At the 10 minute point I noticed my heart rate had fallen to 140, which was simply the tangible confirmation of what I had already felt happening.  My stride had lengthened, I was more relaxed, more fluid than I had been at the slower "transition" pace.  And I was actually working LESS while running 1 minute per mile faster. Here’s what I think happened:  I was able to observe my running form in the reflection in the window in front of me.  I noticed that as I increased the pace the first thing I did was to increase my stride frequency…  this only lasted for about 30 seconds before my frequency began to settle back and my stride length began to increase.  At first I felt like I was over-striding. But after another half-minute or so, the new stride felt about right.  I noticed from my reflection that my vertical movement (head bobbing up and down) had become minimal and my hips seemed to be what had given me the increase in stride length.  At the slower pace, my hips remained basically squared to the front.  I could clearly see that my hips had opened up at the faster pace, thereby becoming an extension of my legs which allowed more "reach" without an increase in the effort required to push off. Ever make a similar observation? Does this mean that anyone who never crosses this "hip rotation threshold" pace might have hit an artificial speed barrier, and that simply learning to open their hips could improve their pace — dramatically? — Mark

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I could clearly see that my hips had opened up at the faster pace, thereby becoming an extension of my legs which allowed more "reach" without an increase in the effort required to push off. Ever make a similar observation?

Yes but in a slightly different context. When I used to run competitive 400m’s, I felt warming up my hips so they would open up was my most important preparation for a race. Even now, I try to open them up to run faster without more effort. jack

Response:

I getting a little confused by this thread… when you’re talking about ‘opening the hips’, do you mean they rotate more with the legs, or that they allow more forwards/backwards leg movement or something else? Could someone explain further? — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I could clearly see that my hips had opened up at the faster pace, thereby becoming an extension of my legs which allowed more "reach" without an increase in the effort required to push off. Ever make a similar observation? Yes but in a slightly different context. When I used to run competitive 400m’s, I felt warming up my hips so they would open up was my most important preparation for a race. Even now, I try to open them up to run faster without more effort. jack

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Question:

Does anyone have a link to a web page where I can get the latest 199 Mrs T’s Triathlon results.

www.chicagoaa.com

Response:

Hi all, Does anyone have a link to a web page where I can get the latest 199 Mrs T’s Triathlon results. I am particularly interested in how World Champion triathlete Chris McCormack performed. Please help. Regs, Steve

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Question:

I will be participating in my first sprint distance triathlon next month and would like recommendations for gearing. I have noticed that many tri-bikes have large chain rings. Can any one give me any suggestions or what set up you are using. Thanks in advance. Mike

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Mike,     If the course has any huge hills you might want to use a 39 and 53 on the front and then say 11-21 on the back. If it fairly flat you could go with 42 and 53 on the front. I live in Austin and ride in the hill country so I use a 39 and 53 on the front. The 39 is nice in case you need it to climb or if you are dead tired. My rear cassette is 11-21, but some people go as high as 26. I guess it depends on the course and how strong you are. Good luck. Marcus – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be participating in my first sprint distance triathlon next month and would like recommendations for gearing. I have noticed that many tri-bikes have large chain rings. Can any one give me any suggestions or what set up you are using. Thanks in advance. Mike

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Question:

I love my Polar Protrainer and all, but I’m starting to get a rectangular abrasion right in on my sternum where the center part of the transmitter sits. Anybody else have this problem,

YES!!  I HATE it.  It’s been so bad this year that I’ve been outright refusing to wear my HRM when I run.  It doesn’t bother me when I ride, just when running.  The bouncing, you see. and have an idea how to fix it? I’d try the BodyGlide thing, but I’m afraid of gunking up the transmitter . . .

As well you should be.  When I used to try to lube the transmitter (SportsSlick) I usually wound up getting bad readings from the monitor. Very annoying. I’ve tried using a wide strip of first aid tape across the spot, and while this does prevent the transmitter itself from abrading the skin, the tape seems to transmit all the chafing to its edges.  So the abrasion isn’t as bad, but it covers a little wider area. Have also tried using a Compeed adhesive bandage, and that actually works well, except that the damned things just aren’t big enough.  And cinching the transmitter down tight only makes it more uncomfortable. The only real solution, I’m afraid, is to continue wearing the thing ’til it "toughens up" the skin on your sternum.  When I wore my HRM religiously, the chafing problem eventually dissipated.  I just couldn’t get myself to go through the "break in" period again when I started up training after the off season this year, though! Bleah.  When will they invent an HRM transmitter that doesn’t chafe?? — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

Response:

I love my Polar Protrainer and all, but I’m starting to get a rectangular abrasion right in on my sternum where the center part of the transmitter sits. Anybody else have this problem, and have an idea how to fix it? I’d try the BodyGlide thing, but I’m afraid of gunking up the transmitter . . . — TriathRon                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_ `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / (ASCII art blatantly plagiarized from TriBaby’s sig . . . )

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Question:

In article <36DC420A.C9EDD…@srv.net>, w…@srv.net wrote:

| When people ask me how I am doing (you know, "I’m just being polite, I’m not really | interested") I just say "Not bad".  If I say I’m OK or good or whatever, they | usually say something like "Oh, so you are getting over it then." When they ask me, I tell them "I’m surviving!". — Take care James (#11)

Response:

On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:58:07 GMT, jbridg…@home.com (James Bridges) wrote: >In article <36DC420A.C9EDD…@srv.net>, w…@srv.net wrote: >| When people ask me how I am doing (you know, "I’m just being polite, I’m >not really >| interested") I just say "Not bad".  If I say I’m OK or good or whatever, they >| usually say something like "Oh, so you are getting over it then." >When they ask me, I tell them "I’m surviving!".

My response: I’m miserably well. Donn

Response:

The message <36dc5e6f.840…@news1.cheetah.net>   from  d…@cheetah.net contains these words: > >When they ask me, I tell them "I’m surviving!". > My response: I’m miserably well.

I say I’m alive. Helen

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Helen Deborah Vecht wrote: > The message <36dc5e6f.840…@news1.cheetah.net> >   from  d…@cheetah.net contains these words: > > >When they ask me, I tell them "I’m surviving!". > > My response: I’m miserably well. > I say I’m alive. > Helen

When people ask me how I’m doin, I say, "I’m doin"! Lin

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>>I have a friend whose husband has MS also and she says his least favorite

line is "But you look so good!<< Warren, The NMSS has a publication by that very name.  I got several copies, and immediately hand them  to anyone who still *dares to say that to me!  <smile> It certainly takes them by surprise, and keeps their mind on reading, rather than making comments! Judith

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Sorry, Paula…  I wasn’t paying attention to your signature! ;-/ Judith

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For a long time I felt like an Arab: "Been better, been worse" Fred.

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I can sure sympathize.  The disease hit my mom mentally worse than it did me. Try this or try that. The cod liver oil was the worst!  I tried various things that she comes up with to humour her. She doesn’t understand that there is no magic cure! Sophie Motomij <moto…@aol.comelong> wrote in message

news:19990223214803.10898.00005073@ng148.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok, so here I am with my actual diagnoses, and everyone else goes into > denial."Get a second opinion" etc. I patiently explain how the doctors arrived > at their conclusion, MRI, Spinal Tap etc. and they slowly realise that I might > not be dead after all. Then there is the "look" which hints that maybe I am OK, > after all I AM standing there talking to them. Of course they don’t know my > butt muscles are twitching and my hands are freezing on a warm day, that my > gyro keeps telling me the floor is 300 feet down. But I sure look good, at > least until they watch me limp away. > Then there are the things "you ought to try" > Of course I have tried chiropracters, acupuncture, aspartame and even expresso > enemas.( just kidding) and whatever else they suggest. But sometimes I just ask > them to refrain from practicing neurology without a license! > The worst was telling my mom, who at 77 years old edits a local major daily > newspaper and leaps tall buildings with a single bound. She needed to hear, but > I just dreaded making the call. I consoled her, and I knew that it was she who > would need it more than I. I told her that I would find time to cry myself, but > that I had to get in shape for a long fight first. > Thanks to all of you who welcomed me yesterday, and to anyone who would’ve. > Jim > Mas rapido! > http://members.aol.com/Motomij/yourhere.html > Remove "elong" to reply

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I have only been dealing with MS for a few months so don’t have much experience with it.  I guess I was lucky I was diagnosed right away with a positive MRI and negative tests for "look-alike" problems.  Didn’t have to wait years or have a lot of painful tests. I have a friend whose husband has MS also and she says his least favorite line is "But you look so good!"  It is hard for people to understand that even though you look "normal" you HURT! Maybe we should start telling each other how awful we look When people ask me how I am doing (you know, "I’m just being polite, I’m not really interested") I just say "Not bad".  If I say I’m OK or good or whatever, they usually say something like "Oh, so you are getting over it then."  I don’t know if they don’t want to face the fact that there are some things in this life we are not going to get over or what, but they say the same kind of thing to my husband about his diabetes.  But life goes on. Paula Jo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jsatch66 wrote: > Oh that is so true, explaining our MS never goes away.  I feel the same as you. > Once I went through all the tests and the diagnosis was handed down, the denial > set in from all my family and friends.  I was the only one that believed my dx. >  I was just relieved to know I wasn’t going crazy and could put a name on what > was happening to my body. > People keep saying "try this, have you tried this?"  Blah, blah, blah.  My kids > and husband still don’t get it and don’t want to hear about it at all.  I just > don’t look bad enough to them and I sometimes think they think I am > exaggerating my aches and pains.  Keep posting, this group does get it. > Jeanne

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I work with a guy who has had MS for ten years and obviously I have asked him THOUSANDS of questions.  I’m still not DX’d (Brain and spine MRI neg, no LP yet)) but I’ve got all the symptoms (sans ON) and have both a family history and a prior "what the hell was that" episode in ‘91 that was DX’d as transverse myelitis.   How long did you have the symptoms before you were finally DX’d and how old are you ? See ya !! Motomij <moto…@aol.comelong> wrote in message

news:19990223214803.10898.00005073@ng148.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Ok, so here I am with my actual diagnoses, and everyone else goes into >denial."Get a second opinion" etc. I patiently explain how the doctors arrived >at their conclusion, MRI, Spinal Tap etc. and they slowly realise that I might >not be dead after all. Then there is the "look" which hints that maybe I am OK, >after all I AM standing there talking to them. Of course they don’t know my >butt muscles are twitching and my hands are freezing on a warm day, that my >gyro keeps telling me the floor is 300 feet down. But I sure look good, at >least until they watch me limp away. >Then there are the things "you ought to try" >Of course I have tried chiropracters, acupuncture, aspartame and even expresso >enemas.( just kidding) and whatever else they suggest. But sometimes I just ask >them to refrain from practicing neurology without a license! >The worst was telling my mom, who at 77 years old edits a local major daily >newspaper and leaps tall buildings with a single bound. She needed to hear, but >I just dreaded making the call. I consoled her, and I knew that it was she who >would need it more than I. I told her that I would find time to cry myself, but >that I had to get in shape for a long fight first. >Thanks to all of you who welcomed me yesterday, and to anyone who would’ve. >Jim >Mas rapido! >http://members.aol.com/Motomij/yourhere.html >Remove "elong" to reply

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Ok, so here I am with my actual diagnoses, and everyone else goes into denial."Get a second opinion" etc. I patiently explain how the doctors arrived at their conclusion, MRI, Spinal Tap etc. and they slowly realise that I might not be dead after all. Then there is the "look" which hints that maybe I am OK, after all I AM standing there talking to them. Of course they don’t know my butt muscles are twitching and my hands are freezing on a warm day, that my gyro keeps telling me the floor is 300 feet down. But I sure look good, at least until they watch me limp away. Then there are the things "you ought to try" Of course I have tried chiropracters, acupuncture, aspartame and even expresso enemas.( just kidding) and whatever else they suggest. But sometimes I just ask them to refrain from practicing neurology without a license! The worst was telling my mom, who at 77 years old edits a local major daily newspaper and leaps tall buildings with a single bound. She needed to hear, but I just dreaded making the call. I consoled her, and I knew that it was she who would need it more than I. I told her that I would find time to cry myself, but that I had to get in shape for a long fight first. Thanks to all of you who welcomed me yesterday, and to anyone who would’ve. Jim Mas rapido! http://members.aol.com/Motomij/yourhere.html Remove "elong" to reply

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Sorry you’ve joined us John.  I wish you were competing in an ironman triathalon instead. But hey, since you’re here, welcome, take off your coat and stay awhile. Tick…NE Texas

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Bill, It all started with a cervical compression injury in 4/97…numbness etc. I improved somewhat then had a rapid decline in the summer of 98. I was being routed towards a 3 level fusion, as I had pretty bad DDD in my neck. An ortho advised me to wait a while due to the poor outcomes of such surgeries and my lifestyle. I asked for a referral to a Neurologist to obtain another view of my situation, weakness, more numbness, moderate to severe pain etc. He put his finger on it immediately after a thorough Exam. Spinal tap and MRI of my c-spine and brain provided proof. I hit all the spots he said. So here I am. Jim Mas rapido! http://members.aol.com/Motomij/yourhere.html Remove "elong" to reply

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Hi Jim, I know the feeling. And I think everybody else here does too. That’s one of the requirements of having MS. Convincing others that you really do have it. <laughing> Now aint THAT a bitch!! It wasn’t enough being put through the mill and being called a nut case. Now it’s time for family and friends to go into denial. There’s really just no pleasing anybody. I suggest wearing a bright neon sign!! <laughing>  And welcome!!! Take care, Dawn

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Oh that is so true, explaining our MS never goes away.  I feel the same as you. Once I went through all the tests and the diagnosis was handed down, the denial set in from all my family and friends.  I was the only one that believed my dx.  I was just relieved to know I wasn’t going crazy and could put a name on what was happening to my body. People keep saying "try this, have you tried this?"  Blah, blah, blah.  My kids and husband still don’t get it and don’t want to hear about it at all.  I just don’t look bad enough to them and I sometimes think they think I am exaggerating my aches and pains.  Keep posting, this group does get it. Jeanne

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Dear Carmel,  When you feel that way (like you’re being perceived as a whining fraud) just remember the ignorance of the general public in reference to ms & the scariness of this disease. You can lok the picture of heath one day  & be hit full force with it the next. All of which scares not only you but the casual observer. They need to feel that -should they ever be presented with this difficulty

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In article <36D69966.30F5A…@north.net.au>, Carmel Pacey Digby <di…@north.net.au> writes: >I’m amazed how many people tell me "Oh, MS.&nbsp; That’s not so bad.&nbsp; >You can fix that with lifestyle and diet changes, or exercise.&nbsp; Blah >Blah Blah."&nbsp; Everyone knows someone who has it and it’s no big deal. >They make you feel like a whining fraud.

So screw them.  I have an aunt who said, upon finding out I had quit working, that  her neighbor had ms and she kept teaching school for 25 yrs.  I explained that ms is different in everyone and progresses at a different rate, but she wasn’t interested. As far as she was concerned I was just lazy.  We no longer have any contact. Good riddance. Kathi

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On 26 Feb 1999 12:34:07 GMT, jsatc…@aol.com (Jsatch66) wrote: >Oh that is so true, explaining our MS never goes away.  I feel the same as you.                         CLIPPED >Jeanne

So "explaining" may have additional medical outcomes? I suffer from "explaining . . . and you know where it hurst the most. Donn                    

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You are all a pain in the A$$

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David, Regarding your comment >You are all a pain in the A$$ > When I was a child, we had an expression that perfectly suits this:

"It takes one to know one" Please speak to your psychiatrist soon – you definitely have a major sociological problem that needs to be dealt with!

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Excuse me?  What are you doing on this site if you can’t communicate in a decent manner?  Having opinions and feelings and advice are what a support group is all about.  For you to be negative and call us all a pain in the ass doesn’t cut it.  Do you have any constructive comments to make that are maybe a little more positive?

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Question:

…Also, Jim, I’d be interested in any info you have on the Chameleon club. TIA. Dale

uh, my name is Ted….and, um, I’m not a farmer… Kidding! my name’s John actually, and anyone interested in Team Chameleon New Haven, CT 06515.  Tell them you got the number from the Race Director of the Shamrock Duathlon.  They will give you a new Softride Powerwing FREE!…Kidding again! Good Luck, John

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I am a member of the Wolfpack Triathlon club sponsored by the Cycle Fitness bike shop in Monroe/Stratford (1-800-240-bike).  We have members of all levels and welcome any new members.  Call the store for meeting times, swims, rides, etc.

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If your interested in sharing information, or want more info about the Connecticut newsgroup (not a real newsgroup, but it works just the same) I was thinking about starting just drop me a line at    Good luck with your training. –Mike Lasky

Hi, I recently moved to Shelton, Ct.  I would be interested if you started the CT newsgroup.   June, another source for tri’s in the area, (if you want to extend back to MA and RI) is the Firm racing series.   http://www.firm-racing.cnchost.com/  They have the 1/2 IM in September in RI. Also, Jim, I’d be interested in any info you have on the Chameleon club.  TIA. Dale

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Hello all- I am moving in to New Haven, CT area and as I promised to myself long time ago I am going to train for an ironman. Next year I will be happy if I can do a half ironman. Is there a club for beginning triathlete in New Haven area. Any race info? Most of all anyone who want to train together when possible? I am just a novice in the field and will not be able to train professionally because of my work and my family but I will be a good company. Plus I am moving into a new area and need friend anyway. Thanks for reading this. J-S

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Hey, I don’t know if it will help much, but there are some Tri’s in Mass.  I live in Bristol CT, and am training now for my first Triathlon.  I think the distance is a little too far to train together, but I would love to hear of any other information you find about triathlons in the CT area.  Here is the link to the Triathlons in Mass:  http://www.timeoutproductions.com/ .     I was actually thinking about starting a ‘mini’ newsgroup for triathletes in the area.  I know some people who own a few servers which could do it.  If your interested in sharing information, or want more info about the Connecticut newsgroup (not a real newsgroup, but it works just the same) I was thinking about starting just drop me a line at     Good luck with your training. –Mike Lasky – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all- I am moving in to New Haven, CT area and as I promised to myself long time ago I am going to train for an ironman. Next year I will be happy if I can do a half ironman. Is there a club for beginning triathlete in New Haven area. Any race info? Most of all anyone who want to train together when possible? I am just a novice in the field and will not be able to train professionally because of my work and my family but I will be a good company. Plus I am moving into a new area and need friend anyway. Thanks for reading this. J-S

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Hello all- I am moving in to New Haven, CT area and as I promised to myself long time ago I am going to train for an ironman. Next year I will be happy if I can do a half ironman. Is there a club for beginning triathlete in New Haven area. Any race info? Most of all anyone who want to train together when possible? I am just a novice in the field and will not be able to train professionally because of my work and my family but I will be a good company. Plus I am moving into a new area and need friend anyway. Thanks for reading this. J-S

Welcome to CT June Seek! You’re in luck…sort of.  While New Haven, CT is hardly a triathlon hotbed, not like say…Redwood City, CA, it does have an active tri community. First, there is the CT Triathlon/Duathlon Series (http://www.ziplink.net/~brianj).  A series of about 7 or 8 Triathlons and Duathlons throughout the summer, most within an hour’s drive of New Haven. This includes the Johnny Mac’s Shamrock Duathlon, (http://www.erols.com/magoo34) on June 13, 1999, the world’s most exciting, spectacular, and just plain fun duathlon, going.  Sure, it’s not a tri, but who wants to swim in CT in the middle of June?  50F water temps, talk about shrinkage!  Yikes!  BTW, the 1999 Shamrock Du has been named the 1999 USAT New England Regional Duathlon Championships! Second, there is a tri club that is based out of the New Haven, Hamden area. It’s called the Chameleon Triathlon Club (or something of the sort) and Scott Roth, Dick Korby and a bunch of others organize it.  I can get more information if you need it, just let me know. Unfortunately, all the tri’s in the CT Series are sprint distances and may not give you the test your looking for to do a 1/2 IM event.  There is a 1/2 IM in Kingston, NY in mid-July and another in Narragansette, RI in early Sep. (or thereabouts) that may be what you’re looking for. Lastly, and most importantly, the CT Series does not allow former UMass students, faculty, staff, alumni, or fans into the STATE, much less the SERIES.  All allegiances MUST be converted to UCONN or risk SEVERE penalties!  (I’m kidding, of course!)

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Question:

Welcome to the Ironman Dealer Network. We have been carrying Ironman Triathlon for 3 years now and they do have a great product. — Bud Bonzai web site      www.erols.com/bonzaisports : New for 1999, Steve’s Multisport will be carrying Ironman Wetsuits. : I’ve done some homework on these guys. Had a chance to do our own in water : tests with some of my local team member. : Very comfortable. Full suits seem to fit extremely well and cut down on : the traditional wetsuit tightness. : Longjohns were excellent but not much different then QR’s. : : I’ll be carrying QR and Ironman and will let you the customer decide what : is better!! : : Suits will be arriving shortly. Call for sizing and stock info.. : : : ELITE BICYCLES : http://www.elitebicycles.com :

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New for 1999, Steve’s Multisport will be carrying Ironman Wetsuits. I’ve done some homework on these guys. Had a chance to do our own in water tests with some of my local team member. Very comfortable. Full suits seem to fit extremely well and cut down on the traditional wetsuit tightness. Longjohns were excellent but not much different then QR’s. I’ll be carrying QR and Ironman and will let you the customer decide what is better!! Suits will be arriving shortly. Call for sizing and stock info.. ELITE BICYCLES http://www.elitebicycles.com

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Question:

In a newsgroup that favors such topics as Powerbars Taste Like Shit, Peeing off the bike, What is Digestible on the Ride, before the swim, apres run, as well as every other biological detail involved with triathlon, it surprises me that no one has ever broached the subject of their gut (literally) reaction to pre-race nerves. It has come to my attention that many triathletes’intestines become overly lax before the race; others have told me that their tension affects their insides and that they are the unhappy transporters of an unwanted load throughout the whole two or three hour event.  Wouldn’t you open-minded and free-spirited posters to RST like to share your experiences, concerns, and, above all, solutions, to this problem that plagues quite a few triathletes just as much as the subjects mentioned above: food, pee, etc? Ruth Kazez

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(…stuff snipped)…Wouldn’t you open-minded and free-spirited posters to RST like to share your experiences, concerns, and, above all, solutions, to this problem that plagues quite a few triathletes just as much as the subjects mentioned above: food, pee, etc?

Right on Ruth!  It’s at least 3 trips to the Port-o-john from the time I wake up to the time my wave starts.  I attribute it to nerves and as of yet have found no remedy.  Hopefully, some helpful suggestions (other than the obvious eat only foods you have trained with, avoid acidic foods, etc.) will come out of this thread. Mark Stewart

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Question:

You will know that your heart rate is too slow when you get dizzy. 44 is not even uncommon in trained athletes.

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I think it’s the low pulse that causes my dizziness when I stand up.  It’s great to be fit!

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I’ve been running, on and off for 2 years, and taken it more seriously in the last few months, going out about 4 times a week for average of 40 min. I know very fit people can have a pulse as low as 50, but I’ve never heard of it being as low as 44 and I would not say I’m in that category. My resting pulse is consistently around 44-45. Does this indicate something is wrong somewhere? I am 31 years old and feel fit and healthy with no other problems (that I know of!). Les

My waking pulse rate is 42, when not overtrained, and I’m in my 50’s. Ray Mascia

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I know very fit people can have a pulse as low as 50, but I’ve never heard of it being as low as 44 and I would not say I’m in that category. My resting pulse is consistently around 44-45. Very fit distance athletes can have a resting pulse around 30-40. I know some marathon runners, whose resting pulse is less than 30. I am sure that you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

One more thing — caffeine matters.  That means you should take your pulse as soon as you open your eyes.  My resting pulse is around 38-43, but it’s up to 48-50 by the time I’m well into java land.  Also, resting heart rate is not *always* an indication of health and ahtleticism.  Some very good althletes have smaller faster beating hearts.  I went to college with someone who was in sports ilustrated’s ‘faces in the crowd’ as a teenager and was a very fine athlete; he had a resting pulse rate of 82. (See "the heart rate monitor book")    I’d probably be better off without the jah, but that’s a decision I’ll make when I become a master in a few years.  "Train hard, earn your vices."  bwp

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   Just a few more data points:  Miguel Indurain, who won the    Tour de France 3 or four times in a row has a resting heart    rate of 25 to 28 beats a minute.

Also Spencer Smith, the two-time Olympic triathlon champion, has resting heart rate of 33 (not quite up to par with Indurian, but hey, the kid is only 22, he will get it down below 30…. Kostya Vasilyev                    Symantec Corp. Development Tools Do not seek to follow                           swim-bike-run     in the footsteps of the wise;                  swim-bike-run Seek what they sought.                                swim-bike-run     — Basho

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Question:

Does any one out there have this years Ironman Canada Results. I would love to do it some day, and I would like to find out how long it will take me to do the race. Thanks Shawn. 49 Mountbatten Dr St,John’s Newfoundland A1A 3Y4 CANADA FAX: (709) 576-0886

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n) writes: Does any one out there have this years Ironman Canada Results.

The race isn’t till Aug 27th… Jim Bodoh

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I do but they are pretty thick.  What age group are you interested in?

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In article   writes:

Without being redundant all of the great things being said about Ironman Canada are true. The volunteers make the race. It is THE best Ironman race to do for your first. Penticton is one of the friendliest towns in North America. Bring a lot of old race T-shirts for the International T-shirt exchange — it’s really fun. Good training all.

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: I wore a sleeveless wetsuit at Ironman Canada this year and was perfectly : comfortable.  My hands were a bit cold, but this wasn’t a problem since : there were many great volunteers to help in the transition.   – Something I found good to do when I swim in cold bodies of water is

     put vasaline on the *back* of my hands and wrists. This seems to do      a very good job keeping my hands from getting too cold.  The reason      I put it on the BACKS of my hands only is because,  thats where all      blood vessels (or veins) are. This seems to be the part of the hand      that is most vulnerable,  and suseptable to cold  temperatures, and      the part that needs protection. Vasalene does a good job doing just      that.  Vasalene around the wrist, also protects that area from cold      water. And in my opinion, functionality of the wrist is critical in      the bike portion of a tri.      r,      richd

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   Todd writes: | What do y’all think about sleeved vs sleeveless? | | | Last year I bought a sleeveless wetsuit on the advice of my wife the fish, | who thought the sleeved wetsuits would affect turnover and slow one down. | But after seeing Nate Llerandi and Michellie Jones, two of the top swimmers | in the pro ranks, use full-sleeved wetsuits whenever wetsuits are allowed, | my wife decided to ask around about the full-sleeved suits.  The main | reason to use sleeves is for more buoyancy (although in really cold water | warmth may become the main reason).  Even good swimmers like Llerandi and | Jones benefit from the added buoyancy the sleeves give, which more than | makes up for any slow down in turnover (which is usually not very noticeable | anyway).  Needless to say, we’re both planning on getting sleeved wetsuits | for this season.    I have to agree with everything that Todd says. I too feel that I    am/was faster in a sleeved wetsuit, especially in Ironman distance    swims.  After 4 experiences in Canada I don’t think I would use    anything but a sleeved wetsuit.  It does actually contribute to    the glide during each stroke (with your arm extended) because of the    added buoyancy.    As far as requiring more arm strength, if the suit fits well and you    do train in it, no problem.    Data point:  You should be prepared for a "cold" swim in Canada and    if your lucky and conditions are normal, plan on 66-68 degrees.    In 1990 I saw the water temperature go from 66 to 58 degrees in "ONE"    day.  A very strong north wind came up on Tuesday or Wednesday and    stirred the lake so well that it brought all the cold water up    from below.  You should have seen hundred’s of people scambling to    find and buy neoprene swim caps…….8-).  Some friends from Oregon    had their family buy and bring up sleeved wetsuits (Pro-Motion) and    all the wetsuit caps they could find.  As it turns out the water    warmed (?) up to 63-64 by race morning but I still did the swim in    a sleeved wetsuit and a neoprene cap and my feet were still bricks    after 60 minutes in the water.  I passed, but heard alot of folks    had to sit in the hot tub after their swim.    So do be prepared for anything.    Good luck to all of you going, great race.    Curt Simkins    Hewlett-Packard    McMinnville, Oregon

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I just started triathlons in 93 and bought a sleeveless wetsuit for a couple of ocean swims.  My 1st tri with the suit, I did terrible.  Worst time than the pool.  the 2nd tri (1 mile ocean swim) I rented a sleeved wetsuit and the swim was much better and faster than my pool times by 5 minutes. I don’t know if it was the wet suit, but it seemed to make a difference. Karl Watanabe

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What do y’all think about sleeved vs sleeveless?

Last year I bought a sleeveless wetsuit on the advice of my wife the fish, who thought the sleeved wetsuits would affect turnover and slow one down. But after seeing Nate Llerandi and Michellie Jones, two of the top swimmers in the pro ranks, use full-sleeved wetsuits whenever wetsuits are allowed, my wife decided to ask around about the full-sleeved suits.  The main reason to use sleeves is for more buoyancy (although in really cold water warmth may become the main reason).  Even good swimmers like Llerandi and Jones benefit from the added buoyancy the sleeves give, which more than makes up for any slow down in turnover (which is usually not very noticeable anyway).  Needless to say, we’re both planning on getting sleeved wetsuits for this season. Todd Jensen                                  o AT&T Bell Labs             ___^o_    __o    <| (708) 979-1254                     _ <_    

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In article   writes: -swim The application info says the average water temp is 68.  Is a full wet suit better than a sleeveless one?  Is the lake usually calm?

   The water temperature was more like 64 this past year. However I think this last year was a rainy year in BC so the summer temeperatures were a little cooler. I didn’t see anyone without a wetsuit in the swim. Most were sleveless, but about 25% were full arms and legs.     I wore a full arms and legs wetsuit. This was my first race with it. I bought it specifically for this race because of the talk about the water temperature. It worked out OK for me. I got out of the water in 58 minutes, but I think a sleveless would have worked fine too. I’m sure the sleeves made my arms work harder, (of course the 2.4 miles of swimming didn’t help any…) -swim/bike transition What is available here?  Help with wetsuits?  Suntan lotion?  Hot tubs?

   The transitions are manned by some of the most helpful people in the world. They will literally peel you out of your wetsuit (if you let them). They got me out of my full wetsuit in about 3 seconds. There is nourishment, fluids, hot tubs, and people to take your swimming apparel (wetsuit, goggles, etc) for you. These are the most impressive volunteers I’ve ever seen. I didn’t see any suntan lotion, but it wasn’t very hot. -Bike Is wind a problem?  What time of day and where on the course?

   Wind is a problem. You can almost be assured that you will be riding into the wind between miles 50-100. Be ready for it. It can be quite strong. -run Is the run hilly or flat?  Are there dirt shoulders you can run on?

   The run is generally flat with a couple of short hills. Nothing major. Water stops at every mile on the run and every 5 miles on the bike. Thanks, Curt Nelson

–  Jack Birecree, Eastman Kodak Company  Phone (716) 726-9629  Any opinions expressed herein belong to me and not to my employer.

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I may have missed previous discussion on the IC but I have a few questions. -swim The application info says the average water temp is 68.  Is a full wet suit better than a sleeveless one?  Is the lake usually calm? -swim/bike transition What is available here?  Help with wetsuits?  Suntan lotion?  Hot tubs? -Bike Is wind a problem?  What time of day and where on the course? -run Is the run hilly or flat?  Are there dirt shoulders you can run on? Thanks, Curt Nelson

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| | I may have missed previous discussion on the IC but I have a few questions. | | -swim | | The application info says the average water temp is 68.  Is a full wet suit | better than a sleeveless one?  Is the lake usually calm?  most people had sleeveless, but I’ve heard others suggest using a full wetsuit.  I found that the sleeveless was fine for me. At that time of the morning the lake is  usually calm. | | -swim/bike transition | | What is available here?  Help with wetsuits?  Suntan lotion?  Hot tubs? |  people are there to pull off your wetsuit as soon as you come out of the  water. then someone else hands you your transition bag. suntan lotion and  nutrition are available, although most people use their own. I believe there  is a hot tub, although, I didn’t see it. | -Bike | | Is wind a problem?  What time of day and where on the course? |  there is typically a southerly wind that picks up after noon… just around  the time that most are heading north on the return leg. I found it to be  a real drag if you’ll excuse the pun. | -run | | Is the run hilly or flat?  Are there dirt shoulders you can run on? |  it’s pretty flat. there are a few small hills. nothing very long though.  although, at the time, it seemed like all I could handle. | | Thanks, | Curt Nelson  good luck, you’ll have a great time!  Chris — Ontario Telepresence Project, 2670 Queensview Dr., Ottawa, ON, K1N 6N5, CANADA

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| I may have missed previous discussion on the IC but I have a few questions. | | -swim | | The application info says the average water temp is 68.  Is a full wet suit | better than a sleeveless one?  Is the lake usually calm? most people had sleeveless, but I’ve heard others suggest using a full wetsuit.  I found that the sleeveless was fine for me. At that time of the morning the lake is usually calm.

Yes, I couldn’t let this go by without asking a question!!!  :-) I have a sleeveless wetsuit (full length).  I have heard that sleeved wetsuits slow down one’s stroke (makes sense).  Naturally slow turnover swimmers are not as affected by this as fast turnover swimmers.  I have a slow swimming turnover speed so I am leaning towards the sleeved job.   What do y’all think about sleeved vs sleeveless? Thanks in advance (as usual). Rolf Arands

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Can anyone tell me how one registers/qualifies for Ironman Canada?  I know that this year’s race is full but I am interested in next year. Ruth

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Can anyone tell me how one registers/qualifies for Ironman Canada?  I know that this year’s race is full but I am interested in next year. Ruth

 See http://www.ironman.ca Cheers Dalton — | Life is too short             |          __o        |     _/_     | | to just watch!!!              |        _`<,_   o   |  _/\  //_  | |Dalton Cote                    | ___o_         _   |   __  __<   | |Calgary , Canada               | ~~~~~~          /   |      ||      | |http://www.ucalgary.ca/~djcote |                        IRONMAN 97  |

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Can anyone tell me how one registers/qualifies for Ironman Canada?  I know that this year’s race is full but I am interested in next year.

Ironman Canada is apparently in the early stages of instituting a qualifying procedure for the event.  For the first time, there are a handful of Canadian races where "qualifying slots" will be available for those who didn’t jump on the registration bandwagon within the first month that reg forms were available. So, if you didn’t get registered for the ‘97 event, you could still possibly qualify at one of those races and nab a slot that way.  I don’t know if ALL slots will be distributed strictly by qualifying after this year; I’m just glad I got signed up for ‘97 so I wouldn’t have to worry about that! Otherwise, registration forms are made available in October for the next year’s race.  Check out the Ironman Canada website for more information:                         http://www.ironman.ca Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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Can anyone tell me how one registers/qualifies for Ironman Canada?  I know that this year’s race is full but I am interested in next year. Otherwise, registration forms are made available in October for the next year’s race.  Check out the Ironman Canada website for more information:                        http://www.ironman.ca

This year’s race filled up by the end of October so I don’t know if I would even wait that long. I would contact the IMC Office (see the Web Page) the Monday after the race (August 25) & request an application. They are available. They even included a ‘97 application in my ‘96 Race Packet at registration. Send it in ASAP. Oh & Tricia, remember that part about where you said you were glad you sent in your registration when the sun is bearing down on us all as we’re climbing Yellow Lake.

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: So, if you didn’t get registered for the ‘97 event, you could still : possibly qualify at one of those races and nab a slot that way.  I don’t : know if ALL slots will be distributed strictly by qualifying after this : year; I’m just glad I got signed up for ‘97 so I wouldn’t have to worry : about that! Ah, dear Tri-Baby, you’re still deep in denial.  Deep in the "I’m going to do this one time just to do it" phase.  Within 24 hrs that "Never again" will fade to "maybe in a few years" which will soon fade to "how many days until IMC???"  ;-) Just 24 hours until we find out about DESTINY! — Jason Mayfield, Arlington VA Kona is not my mission, it is my DESTINY! 116 Days Until Ironman Canada ‘97 171 Days Until Fulfilment of DESTINY!

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I checked the Ironman Canada homepage and can’t seem to figure out how one would qualify or apply for the 1998 race.  Anyone know? Ruth

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 - I checked the Ironman Canada homepage and can’t seem to figure out how one  - would qualify or apply for the 1998 race.  Anyone know? – Ruth Yes Ruth…Send for the application either through www.ironman.ca or through snail mail at the appropriate address (should be on the e-mail address above) at the end of August 1997. This race is in great demand, so as soon as you get the application, fill it and send it out IMMEDIATELY. The application process takes less than a month to fill, so I cannot stress that enough. Anyway, I’ve been there last year and will be going this year. It’s a great race, it’ll be one for your memories! Iron Pete

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Ruth: Contact these people for the application to IMC: Phone:(250) 490-8787 Fax: (250) 490-8788 Iron Pete

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Looking for a place to stay in Penticton. I know I’m a bit late but we’re looking to possibly rent a condo or the like. Anybody have any suggestions or leads please let me know. Dates: 8/23/00 – 8/29/00 Thanks -Andrew — U S WEST Advanced Technologies 4001 Discovery Dr. Boulder, CO 80303 (303)541-6212 voice, -8264 fax

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Andrew – Try a post to the IMC comments page.  Also contact Okanagan Reservations. Their 1800 number is listed on the IMC website under the getting to Penticton site. www.ironman.ca gordo

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How do I go about getting an application for IMC 97? If anyone could please help me, I’d appreciate it. Thanks Tony Anthony Edward Berwald Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332

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I got mine from their web site, http://www.ironman.ca  The document was in PDF format I think. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do I go about getting an application for IMC 97? If anyone could please help me, I’d appreciate it. Thanks Tony Anthony Edward Berwald Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332

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I believe that there are a couple of reasons for the early filling. One is as you indicate. The other reason is that for the first time Ironman Canada has modified their refund policy.  Withdrawal prior to January 31,1997 all but 10% of the entry fee is refundable.  in the past only $150 CDN of the entry fee was refundable.  This meant that unless you were really sure you were going to go to IMC you didn’t apply until you had sometime to really think about it, otherwise you were out alot of cash (this year it would have been $210). I’ve done several IMC and have already sent in my application for next year. Previously the earliest I ever sent in my application was November 1.

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 OK, perhaps I should already know this, but  how soon does IMC fill up each  year, and what do I need to do to enter??? I called the Ironman Canada office last week and Lorraine, the office manager, said that the 1997 applications are coming in like never before. A lot of people didn’t get into the 1996 race because it filled up so quickly. If you want to do IMC in 1997 get your application in now!!! To have an application form sent to you call 604-490-8787 or you can download a PDF version of the ‘97 IMC application form from the Ironman Canada web site at: http://www.ironman.ca/entry97/imc97ap.pdf * you must be at least 18 years old on race day. * the entry fee is $360 Canadian * you must include a signed 2 X 2 passport photo. – John L.  (volunteer webmaster for the Ironman Canada Web site)

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OK, perhaps I should already know this, but how soon does IMC fill up each year, and what do I need to do to enter??? Marty — Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://w3.one.net/~triweb

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OK, perhaps I should already know this, but how soon does IMC fill up each year, and what do I need to do to enter???

Send me a check for $260 US and I’ll make sure you get in. Just kidding.   I think you can call and ask for an application (604-490-8787). I think the race is usually full by December, plus or minus a few weeks.  Also, make sure you get a little 2×2 (inch) photo of yourself to attach.   -Rolf —  Some call me Rolf.                      Some know me as Ironman.                                                 Looking to 1997…..  IMC ‘94 – 14:06:47    IMC ‘95 – 11:58:35        IMC ‘97 – 10:45:00

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Send me a check for $260 US and I’ll make sure you get in. Just kidding.  

I’ll do it for only $200! <g I think you can call and ask for an application (604-490-8787). I think the race is usually full by December, plus or minus a few weeks.  Also, make sure you get a little 2×2 (inch) photo of yourself to attach.  

I could never understand why they wanted a phot.  You’d think that someone would want to sneak in or something… Then again, maybe the photo is there so they can identify the body! Tom

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One of the hardest Ironman courses is the Ironman Canada in Penticton.  It make Kona look like a tinman! Anyone survive this beast?

I’ve done both Canada and Hawaii more than once.  Kona will never be like a tinman.  Both are equally difficult courses as an Ironman should be.  To try to compare any two Ironman courses is like comparing apples to oranges.  When considering difficult courses one must also include Ironman Lanzorate and Ironman New Zealand.  In fact on any given day any Ironman distance triathlon can be really difficult regardless of the course. Larry Kuxhausen http://www.crosstrain.com

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One of the hardest Ironman courses is the Ironman Canada in Penticton.  It make Kona look like a tinman! Anyone survive this beast?

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Where in Canada is Penticton?

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: Where in Canada is Penticton? Penticton is in Central BC, in the Okanagen Valley.  About 300km east of Vancouver. And to answer the original poster’s question, yes, it’s a challenging course and there are several finishers here on RST.  We should have one heck of a big honking party there this year.  Oh yeah, there’s that little race we have to do too… — Jason Mayfield     Arlington, VA   "The whole race becomes a prayer, something you perform to the best of   your ability, and offer up to the Creator who has blessed you with the   fitness and vitality to take part."  - Sister Madonna Buder 89 Days Until Ironman Canada ‘97

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Where in Canada is Penticton?

Penticton is in the Okanagan Valley in the southern portion of British Columbia, the most western of the Canadian provinces.  Penticton is amazing in the summer, hot, like DRY hot.  The Okanagan Valley has a very unique weather system and boasts to have the most sunny days in Canada as well as being one of the most popular areas to live. http://bcadventure.com/adventure/explore/index.html (Click on "Okanagan") Ken Ken Lancour – Manager Systems Development and Maintenance EEE Systems Group Ltd. 1200-865 View Street Victoria, British Columbia, Canada V8V 3E8 EEE HQ:   (250) 385-4333 extension 24 EEE Fax:  (250) 385-8371   WWW:      http://www.islandnet.com/~klancour

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One of the hardest Ironman courses is the Ironman Canada in Penticton.  It make Kona look like a tinman! Anyone survive this beast?I’ve successfully done both races but would have to disagree with the

comment about the "tinman"  Hawaii had extreme wind the year I did it and going up hills was extremily difficult. The crosswinds prevented me from being in my aero bars and on top off it all it was extremily hot and humid.  With the right gears,  Ironman Canada isn’t as bad as it appears on paper.  Don’t get me wrong, my legs were tired after the bike leg but the heat hadn’t wiped me out. I think Hawaii has too many variables,  if the conditions were just right, Hawaii’s bike course would be more pleasurable.

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Regarding the comparisons between Ironman Canada and Ironman Hawaii: Obviously, there are many similarities. However, the main differences are that physically( purely from a geographical and topological perspective) IMC is a tougher course. Both the run and the bike at IMC  have more hills. All things being equal, an athlete should be faster at IMH. However, the heat in Hawaii is a huge variable that just cannot be controlled. The heat can really chew you up, particularly if you have not been able to train in the type of conditions that are typical for Hawaii – sunny, hot and humid. If you can handle the heat and humidity and the winds don’t kick up on the bike too badly, I think that an athlete can go faster at IMH. Steve Fleck

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For anyone doing Ironman Canada – have you received your race packet or any kind of info yet? Sue Baker Tustin, CA

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regarding the comparisons between Ironman Canada and Ironman Hawaii: Obviously, there are many similarities. However, the main differences are that physically( purely from a geographical and topological perspective) IMC is a tougher course. Both the run and the bike at IMC  have more hills. All things being equal, an athlete should be faster at IMH. However, the heat in Hawaii is a huge variable that just cannot be controlled. The heat can really chew you up, particularly if you have not been able to train in the type of conditions that are typical for Hawaii – sunny, hot and humid. If you can handle the heat and humidity and the winds don’t kick up on the bike too badly, I think that an athlete can go faster at IMH. Steve Fleck

Well Steve, I beg to differ on this one.  For every tough uphill at Canada there is a screamer downhill.  I have done both and the hills on the Canada run course are really very minimal.  It is as I said like comparing apples and oranges.  Any Ironman course can be very difficult on any given day.  If the rabbit hadn’t stopped to relieve himself the fox never would have caught him. Larry Kuxhausen

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You’re not alone Sue. The packets start to arrive in a month or so (July) as I have learned last year. See you up there in the 97 race! Iron Pete  —–tough as nails

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<Steve’s thoughts deleted Well Steve, I beg to differ on this one.  For every tough uphill at Canada there is a screamer downhill.  I have done both and the hills on the Canada run course are really very minimal.  It is as I said like comparing apples and oranges.  Any Ironman course can be very difficult on any given day.  If the rabbit hadn’t stopped to relieve himself the fox never would have caught him.

Yes, buuuuuut, you do not recover as much time on a downhill as you would lose on the same hill as an uphill.  I heard this somewhere.   Something to do with the cubic (???) relationship of air drag to speed.  At 5-10 mph — sorry, I don’t feel very metric this morning — air drag is minimal and one is working mostly against gravity (as well as bike drag).  This assumes of course no headwind.  But if you go flying down at 40+ mph, there is a huge amount of drag that limits your speed. Thus, my point: even with the downhills, IMC could still be tougher (geographically).  Also, if you compare the fastest times on each course, IMC is a bit slower.   I would bet if you compared the same athlete’s times, one would see a difference. Of course, I would prefer to find out firsthand which course is tougher. -Rolf — Call me IronMac …                         … I tri …                                          … I prefer Macintosh! IMC ‘94 – 14:06:47   IMC ‘95 – 11:58:35    IMC ‘97 – 10:45:00

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– I’m doing Ironman Canada at the end of the summer in Penticton. I made some reservation in some hotel called "Cosy guest house", and I was wondering if that was a good choice. I know it’s near the Ironman transition area, but is it a noisy location (I’d like to have some good night sleep before the race)? Is it clean? etc… Thanks in advance. +   Jean-Didier Allegrucci  - (ISD VLSI Engineering)    + +                                                       +

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What makes you think you are going to sleep well the night before Ironman Canada–regardless of where you are staying! I don’t recall the place you mention by the name you gave, but I imagine it’s in the Lakeshore Drive strip, right along the waterfront.   Penticton is a pretty quiet place; some high-school age kids cruise along the lake until about 10PM…then it gets quiet.  I haven’t stayed too close to the Finish line area, but I recall that most of the scaffolding, etc is done by Saturday PM.  

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I am training for my first Ironman competition – IM Canada in August.

<snip You should have received by now a rule book concerning the rules of this Ironman.   I am hoping to have a full camelback and powerbars waiting for me at the swim/bike transition.  Will they allow this?  What kind of goodies can I expect on the course?  During the bike do they hand out water bottles or do I have to stop and fill my own?

Again, I am pretty sure this is in the handbook.  There will be a bike water/ food stop every five miles on the course.  They will hand you fresh bottles of fluid (either Endura or water I believe).  You simply drop your empty bottles at their dropoff points.   I THINK (but am not sure) that  you can carry basically anything you want.   I plan on using a hip pack to carry food, etc. in.  I do not know offhand what types of food are available from the stops. You will have two special needs bags (food only) to be picked up 1/2 way through the run and the bike courses.  You can put anything you like FOOD wise in these.   See ya there!!! Rolf Arands

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Help! I am training for my first Ironman competition – IM Canada in August.  My training is going well but I am a little in the dark about nutrition during the race.  A friend who completed the race years ago mentioned rules about restricting the food/drink a competitor could bring into the race. I am hoping to have a full camelback and powerbars waiting for me at the swim/bike transition.  Will they allow this?  What kind of goodies can I expect on the course?  During the bike do they hand out water bottles or do I have to stop and fill my own? I would appreciate any information anybody might have. Thanks a bunch, Skeksy

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nutrition during the race.  A friend who completed the race years ago mentioned rules about restricting the food/drink a competitor could bring into the race.

I’m not aware of "competitors" being limited, they might be refering to spectators being prohibited from supplying you during the race. I am hoping to have a full camelback and powerbars waiting for me at the swim/bike transition.  Will they allow this?  What kind of

No problem. goodies can I expect on the course?  During the bike do they hand out water bottles or do I have to stop and fill my own?

Aid stations with water bottles, Power Aid (I think?) and stuff to eat every 5 miles on the bike.  About midway in the bike course you can also have them hand you a ’special needs bag’ that you give them race morning.   I’ve done IM Canada twice.  It’s an extremely well run race, possibly better than Hawaii.  Enjoy the experience!  I wish that I had mailed my Jim Bodoh

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It was mentioned in an earlier post that traffic along the IM Canada bike route was "busy". The person writing the note said there was a lot of RV traffic last year.  I’m wondering if the race committee has made plans to make this years race a little safer.  Last thing in the world I need to deal with when doing an Ironman distance event are a bunch of RV’s, especially when it’s windy. -RC

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It was mentioned in an earlier post that traffic along the IM Canada bike route was "busy". The person writing the note said there was a lot of RV traffic last year.  I’m wondering if the race committee has made plans to make this years race a little safer.  Last thing in the world I need to deal with when doing an Ironman distance event are a bunch of RV’s, especially when it’s windy. -RC

I did not notice a problem with the RV’s or any other traffic on the course but I know that several people were hit by vehicles that had been waved through by the marshalls or police and I was nearly hit by the bike support truck (maybe they were looking for someone to help).  Ray Browning hit a truck going downhill at ~50 mph. The truck had been waved through by an officer.   The problem is the race is on a highway that is the only way to get to parts of the province and they can’t really do to much to reduce the traffic. JPR    

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     I would like to thank the city of Penticton for putting on such a great Ironman. This was my first ironman ever. Combine the people of Penticton with the scenery of the city, this race was the most spectaclor race I’ve ever had. I hope I can be back next year. Thank you to the city of Penticton.                                                            Zach Giegel

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Question… Someone posted several weeks ago an address and phone number for the Ironman Canada race office.  Can you, or someone repost it?  I have sent to them a snail-mail letter, but have yet to hear from them with an application. Thanks. Rolf Arands

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    Rolf wrotes: | Someone posted several weeks ago an address and phone number | for the Ironman Canada race office.  Can you, or someone repost | it?  I have sent to them a snail-mail letter, but have yet to hear from | them with an application.    Ironman Canada Race Society    522 Dawson Avenue    Penticton, British Columbia    Canada  V2A 3N8    604-490-8787  FAX: 604-490-8788    Ask for Jean and tell her Curt Simkins sent ya’.

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       Curt Simkins writes: | |     Rolf wrotes:             ^^^^^^^        Sorry, I think I either wanted to say "writes" or        Also since I’m here, I have sold the Quintana Roo        wetsuit.        Thanks,        Ucrt Minskis

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