Question:

hahaha, I laugh at yout pittyfull remarks Bill-who stands alone in the group-Rodgerz. Your snake tongue and turtle brain deserve no award..

Wuzza matta, can’t take a joke? Or are you S-L-O-W on the uptake? LOLOL

Response:

<snip In ‘95 I did a 10km in less then 33 minutes and a 21,1 km in 1′20. Very strange. I dream of your 10k time and will likely never approach it,  but can run a 1:20 half marathon for breakfast.

Not really …. I started focussing on shorter distances and didn’t run a half a marathon for the last year or so. Although my 10k time was 18 km/hour and my 21.1 km speed was 15.6 km/hour You really think the difference is that big? What is your 10 km time? you got me curious now! r Niels

Response:

<snip In ‘95 I did a 10km in less then 33 minutes and a 21,1 km in 1′20. Very strange. I dream of your 10k time and will likely never approach it,  but can run a 1:20 half marathon for breakfast. Not really …. I started focussing on shorter distances and didn’t run a half a marathon for the last year or so.

I see… but still, sub-33 is fantastic, and off that ability alone you should be able to run a 1:20 easily without training for it. It’s not like we are talking about the mile and the marathon here. Although my 10k time was 18 km/hour and my 21.1 km speed was 15.6 km/hour You really think the difference is that big?

Yes, and hard to believe, although I do believe you! What is your 10 km time? you got me curious now!

10km – 35:19. My half marathon time is comparatively a little slow at 1:19:03. Your 10k time suggests a half marathon ability of about 1:12:30 or thereabouts.That’s about my 5k race pace (low 17’s) cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

10km – 35:19. My half marathon time is comparatively a little slow at 1:19:03.

I should have mentioned my half marathon included a long winding hill of close to a km in length, which makes the difference up in my comparative ’slowness’. I imagine I could run a flat HM in about 1:18:10 – 1:18:30 or so. Still, I have not, and so I can’t say I have yet! I’m not one of those people who "adjust" their PR’s based on heat or hills. I look at the number when I cross the line, and I stick with that. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

10km – 35:19. My half marathon time is comparatively a little slow at 1:19:03. <snip Still, I have not, and so I can’t say I have yet! I’m not one of those people who "adjust" their PR’s based on heat or hills. I look at the number when I cross the line, and I stick with that. cheers,

OK you got me.. my 1/2 was in March ‘94 cold and pretty windy (rural area in Leeuwarden) while my best 10 km was during a triathlon 1,5 year later (Liessel)in 23 degrees Celcius, sun shine and no wind..I finished 2nd that race (of 150) I had a big drive since I was ahead of all local and non local favorites.. and who knows the distance could be off a few hundred meters.Still I had my best run ever that day… But I just mentioned the times to indicate I was a decent runner back then (last century) and am just restarting right now. I don’t think I will ever get close to that… but when I’m running I still feel the thrill every now and then (not so much now as I think of it..) I’ll see where it will take me… cheers. Niels

Response:

Although my 10k time was 18 km/hour and my 21.1 km speed was 15.6 km/hour You really think the difference is that big?

One of those "rule of thumb" approximation thingies (supposing training isn’t too specialised towards one of the distances): 10k at "x" km/h 21k at x-1 km/h 42k at x-2 km/h My PBs on FFA/IAAF certified routes, all set in the same season, are 10k 0:36:40  16.4km/h 21k 1:22:00  15.4km/h 42k 2:55:00  14.5km/h Given 33:00 for 10km, 1:14:00 for 21k, at the same level of training and in the right conditions, wouldn’t be an unreasonable guess. Note: I have no idea of the range performance levels which the rule of thumb is supposed to hold for, or even if it isn’t just a trick of the light

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although my 10k time was 18 km/hour and my 21.1 km speed was 15.6 km/hour You really think the difference is that big? One of those "rule of thumb" approximation thingies (supposing training isn’t too specialised towards one of the distances): 10k at "x" km/h 21k at x-1 km/h 42k at x-2 km/h My PBs on FFA/IAAF certified routes, all set in the same season, are 10k 0:36:40  16.4km/h 21k 1:22:00  15.4km/h 42k 2:55:00  14.5km/h Given 33:00 for 10km, 1:14:00 for 21k, at the same level of training and in the right conditions, wouldn’t be an unreasonable guess. Note: I have no idea of the range performance levels which the rule of thumb is supposed to hold for, or even if it isn’t just a trick of the light

funny talking about these times, while I was so happy yesterday running my 7 km course with only 1 break (2 intervals as my brother should say) in 35,5 minutes… It seems like another life. but the progress is still huge (beating 40 seconds of my previous training who knows that 1:14.. hahaha..  (on the 10 Miles maybe..)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although my 10k time was 18 km/hour and my 21.1 km speed was 15.6 km/hour You really think the difference is that big? One of those "rule of thumb" approximation thingies (supposing training isn’t too specialised towards one of the distances): 10k at "x" km/h 21k at x-1 km/h 42k at x-2 km/h My PBs on FFA/IAAF certified routes, all set in the same season, are 10k 0:36:40  16.4km/h 21k 1:22:00  15.4km/h 42k 2:55:00  14.5km/h Given 33:00 for 10km, 1:14:00 for 21k, at the same level of training and in the right conditions, wouldn’t be an unreasonable guess. Note: I have no idea of the range performance levels which the rule of thumb is supposed to hold for, or even if it isn’t just a trick of the light funny talking about these times, while I was so happy yesterday running my 7 km course with only 1 break (2 intervals as my brother should say) in 35,5 minutes… It seems like another life. but the progress is still huge (beating 40 seconds of my previous training who knows that 1:14.. hahaha..  (on the 10 Miles maybe..)

It’s funny – when you are not in the same shape, so many things change. I took over 3 months off last summer and when I came back I did an "easy" 10k. I found the old easy speed to not be all that unexpectedly hard to deal with (it was harder, of course), but my hydration tolerance and needs had changed a lot. It was a hot day and I had to stop because I felt quite dehydrated, much more than I would have in the same situation and weather when I was fit. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

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Despite the odds, I ran my first 10k (training) yesterday in a nice 48 minutes. It felt tremendous and I had to hold down my pace cause I felt like I was flying. It’s been only 2 1/2 weeks since I started again…but man! does it feel goo or what? I just gotta take a rest today.. take care of my knees.. r Niels

Response:

Despite the odds, I ran my first 10k (training) yesterday in a nice 48 minutes.

Congarts! You just received this weeks "Turtle Racer award". Sorry, this weeks "Snail Racer award" has already been awarded.

Response:

Despite the odds, I ran my first 10k (training) yesterday in a nice 48 minutes. Congarts! You just received this weeks "Turtle Racer award". Sorry, this weeks "Snail Racer award" has already been awarded.

hahaha, I laugh at yout pittyfull remarks Bill-who stands alone in the group-Rodgerz. Your snake tongue and turtle brain deserve no award.. Niels.

Response:

**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** Hi I was a member of this group back in ‘93 when I was a student and doing an internship at the Wageningen university (The Netherlands). At that time I was just introduced into the world of running & triathlon and made some pretty good progress at the time. In ‘95 I did a 10km in less then 33 minutes and a 21,1 km in 1′20.  Also had some nice top 3 finishes in 1/4 triathlons..but then work started and I stopped training…Gained over 20 kilo’s (!) and finally had a beer and WATCHED the game! I restarted a couple of times, but now it is seriously. I’m planning for a nice marathon next year, but am not sure what my goals should be. Right now I’m doing a loing run of  6,5 km in about 38 minutes and am still gaining minutes per week. I feel I can do anything, but need to be more practical… Anyone with similar experience? Would like to hear how your come-back went and what kind of schedule you took… I don’t wanne be to carefull, but I do want to prevent getting disappointed. nice to hear from you! regard Niels  *** Usenet.com – The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***                       http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download – 19 Seperate Servers – 90,000 groups – Uncensored

Response:

Forget the fast pace, cut back to 10mpm and do LSD if you want to run a marathon (which you are completely and totally unprepared for).

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yes yes yes… sure I’m unpreparred right now.. but drugs is never the answer. And you should know that LSD doesn’t really help you get better times (it just makes you feel better).. OK I’m kiddin.. I was actually looking for advice on how to… the "no you can’t", "you never make it", "you’re stupuid trying that" remarks, I can do that myself.. As far as I can see I still got 30 weeks left adding 1 km per week is enough.. and OK let’s forget about the pace..4 hours will be fine It’s setting new goals, the effort, the hope and the pleasure that counts.. keep you posted.. Niels and ps. I am totally against drugs! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Forget the fast pace, cut back to 10mpm and do LSD if you want to run a marathon (which you are completely and totally unprepared for).

Response:

but drugs is never the answer.

Oh, yes they are…. <puff puff the "no you can’t", "you never make it", "you’re stupuid trying that" remarks, I can do that myself..

Maybe so, but I’m a professional, I can do it much more efficently. s far as I can see I still got 30 weeks left adding 1 km per week is enough.. and OK let’s forget about the pace..4 hours will be fine

Ok, now you’re being reasonable. It’s setting new goals, the effort, the hope and the pleasure that counts..

Write back a few hours after the race… and ps. I am totally against drugs!

Oh me too!  <lights one up  <puff puff

Response:

<snip In ‘95 I did a 10km in less then 33 minutes and a 21,1 km in 1′20.

Very strange. I dream of your 10k time and will likely never approach it,  but can run a 1:20 half marathon for breakfast. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org www.absolutelyaccurate.com

Response:

Luckily it’s not going to be my first marathon…I know about the pleasure ‘just’ after… (or better the day after walking down the stairs) I run a marathon in ‘92 in 3:17 and discovered that there is a diference after 35 km. In my training at that time I did a 35 km once… I made a schedule of 2 pryamids (basic,power,speed) both pyramids lasting about 15 weeks. I planned 4 long runs of 30, 32,35 and 30 km in feb and march. every 2 weeks one long run. My first goal is getting up to 10 km with a good feeling. After that it is slowly increasing milage up to 20 (14 weeks from now). But how about some advice/experience? Did you ever started again? how did that go? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but drugs is never the answer. Oh, yes they are…. <puff puff the "no you can’t", "you never make it", "you’re stupuid trying that" remarks, I can do that myself.. Maybe so, but I’m a professional, I can do it much more efficently. s far as I can see I still got 30 weeks left adding 1 km per week is enough.. and OK let’s forget about the pace..4 hours will be fine Ok, now you’re being reasonable. It’s setting new goals, the effort, the hope and the pleasure that counts.. Write back a few hours after the race… and ps. I am totally against drugs! Oh me too!  <lights one up  <puff puff

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Question:

This is an easy one … don’t wear shoes or socks!!! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Sorry, I should have told you that my name isn’t Abbebe Bikila…. Mike E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is an easy one … don’t wear shoes or socks!!! Mike I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I believe this problem was discussed before (a couple weeks ago) so you might want to use Deja.com to look at these old messages.  I’m not sure what people suggested (I do remember someone suggesting a funnel device which attach to your calves which redircts the flow of water around your shoes … not very practical, though!!). Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, I should have told you that my name isn’t Abbebe Bikila…. Mike E. This is an easy one … don’t wear shoes or socks!!! Mike I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E.

I also get Squishy shoes here in Chattanooga, when I run more than 5 miles or so. I wear cool-max socks, and on long runs I make sure they fit good and are realitivly new. My shoes get just as wet but the socks stay in place. Rick

Response:

Mike wrote in part ….My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions?

On a long run in hot weather, my shoes get so wet, people have actually asked me if it’s raining outside.  Once during Grandma’s marathon, I stopped and took my socks off and wrung them out!  For the last couple of years, I have been wearing Ultimax Ironman Triathlon socks and although my shoes still get soaking wet, no sock bunching or blisters. Jim

Response:

Thanks, I should have searched!!! It looks like I either wear funnels, go barefoot, or keep squishing! Thanks, Mike E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe this problem was discussed before (a couple weeks ago) so you might want to use Deja.com to look at these old messages.  I’m not sure what people suggested (I do remember someone suggesting a funnel device which attach to your calves which redircts the flow of water around your shoes … not very practical, though!!). Mike Sorry, I should have told you that my name isn’t Abbebe Bikila…. Mike E. This is an easy one … don’t wear shoes or socks!!! Mike I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree

Well, your socks  _are_ going to be soaking wet and your shoes wet and smelly if you run under those conditions! By running in bare feet, the sweat from your feet will naturally disperse, and the wetness and discomfort from sodden socks and smelly shoes will be a thing of the past.  It doesn’t take long to accustom yourself to running barefoot.  It’s more comfortable than running in shoes, you have more control, and it’s healthier for you. Try it.  You might like it. Andrew Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I am training for a 1/2 marathon at the end of a 1/2 ironman tri in September here in Florida.  I am up to 9-10 miles in 85 degree weather (don’t worry, I carry plenty of water, incorporate water stops, and maximize my shade).  My problem is that my socks and shoes are squishing with sweat towards the end of a long run. This causes my socks to bunch up and creates blisters. I’m not sure what else I could do short of stopping & changing socks.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike E. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

    Last year during track with my college team.  There were 4-5 of us doing the workout but everyone else was 15 sec to 1 min behind me so I was pretty much doing it myself.    1.5 mile warmup    5*1 mile (4:53, 4:53, 4:56, 4:56, 4:50)    quarter mile job between each    1.5 mile cooldown    This year I vow to do the same workout but be in the 4:40’s for each.    The most memorable was with the same group of guys.  It was low 50’s, pouring rain, strong wind with a windchill in the mid 40’s.  We headed out on an 8m run bundled up with long sleve shirts, hats, and gloves.  An hour later we came back soaked to the bone and caked with mud with only our shorts and shoes on.  The rest of the team couldn’t believe us wierd distance guys.  We did the same thing everyday till the rains let up.    dube

Response:

Here’s an interesting thread:  What was the best workout of your life? You can define "best" as fastest, funnest, or most productive in terms of its effect on your fitness or racing ability.. Here’s mine (or one of mine): September 27, 1981:  A 17 mile total for the day 9 mile run in the morning easy Evening endurance intervals with 2 minutes recovery finishing with hard 200’s. That evening workout was :…(I have it written exactly somewhere..) 1) easy mile 2) 4 X 1/2 mile average=2:45 3) 8 x 1/4 mile average= :75 4) 4 x 1/8 mile (220yds)=33, 32, 31, and an all out :29 5) 1 x 1/2 mile = 2:45 6) 1 mile easy I have often used the mental abilities I learned from training since there…I don’t often have to run sprints between computers these days…but it seems

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I recall a work out I did back in High School in the late 1970’s that still stands out in my mind as one of the "best" work-outs that I have ever done. In retrospect it was even "better" than some of the races that I ran at that time or since. This was no doubt because I had the good luck or misfortune(still have not decided this) to train at that time with several of the top junior runners in the country( Canada). I think I tended to over-do it in work outs . Any way, it was a warm late spring evening(no shirt running weather) and we warmed up as usual for about 2 miles with some fast strides to finish up. The work out: 8 x 800 in 2:15 – 2:16 with a one lap(400m) jog recovery. There was a group of about eight of us doing the work out, so each person got to lead one 800. I recall that my turn came up on the second last one. By them I was completely wasted, but I still managed hang on and keep the time under 2:16. Then the last one I was at the back hanging on for dear life. Another memorable work-out was a run  through some villages on the lower slopes of Mt Meru, near the town of Arushya in Tanzania. Sepectacular scenery and kids from the villages joining me along the trails. It was about 5 miles up and 5 miles down. Steve Fleck

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Best workout? Two posibilities: First:  2 x 1 mile (800m rest in 4:00) No splits looked at, none given ….. Mile one:  4:26 (I thought it was 4:40) Mile two:  4:27 (I thought it was 4:00!)  That was a tough one. Two days later 1500m PR in 3:59 Other: 3 sets of 5 x 400m 30 seconds rest within a set, 2 minutes between sets. Set one:  all 65’s Set two:  all 63’s Set three:  62, 61, 61, 59, 58. That was FUN

Response:

Here’s an interesting thread:  What was the best workout of your life? You can define "best" as fastest, funnest, or most productive in terms of its effect on your fitness or racing ability..

Mine was a 70/9 (bike/run) mile "brick" 5 weeks before Ironman Canada. It wasn’t fast or exciting, but the run was surprisingly pleasant and it gave me a feeling of confidence that I would actually be able to do the darn thing. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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: Here’s an interesting thread:  What was the best workout of your life? : You can define "best" as fastest, funnest, or most productive in terms of its : effect on your fitness or racing ability.. I tempted to go down the x number of intervals in y seconds, when I realized the workout I would best like to do over was (mostly) different from that. On vacation, I left in the predawn hours, running through the streets of Waikiki. Up a hill to the entrance road of Diamond Head, then up the hill toward the park, getting nice views of the early morning sky. Got into the volcano bowl and decided, what the heck. Up the trail, through the pitch black tunnel (literally by feel), up the stairs, popping out on the platform on the top of the mountain.  A woman looks up and says, "You almost missed it." I look out and see the first rays of the sun come up over the horizon. Wow. Then on the way back, a mile at about 5:00 down the street heading back to the hotel. -pfrench

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: Here’s an interesting thread:  What was the best workout of your life? : You can define "best" as fastest, funnest, or most productive in terms of its : effect on your fitness or racing ability.. 4 1/2 trips up and down a "hill" that is 5 miles and 2,500 feet elevation gain for the up and the same for the return. That’s 45 miles with about 11K up and 11K down over 11 1/2 hours. Ran the first two laps(20 miles) with a two minute break to get two more fluid bottles.  The last 2 1/2 laps were run/power_hike with stops to eat, drink and eat some more..  This was my last training run 3 weeks before a 100. P.S. The race went fantastic, 21:01 was my time and at 50 years of age. I don’t think I made the top 10 in my age group. — Caveat Lector!

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: Here’s an interesting thread:  What was the best workout of your life? : You can define "best" as fastest, funnest, or most productive in terms of its : effect on your fitness or racing ability..

It would have to be a 6 mile tempo I did back in 96 when I was training for Marine Corp. At the time I was trying to break 3 hours in the ‘thon and had signed up with Mark Conover for internet coaching. He had me doing lots of long intervals and brutal tempos on the track. The goals were to a) make 6:51 feel easy, and b) teach me to pace myself. I had a lot of trouble with b. The goal was 6 miles at 6:20. Not a couple miles at 6:10, then a couple at 6:20, then a couple at 6:30, but 6 miles as close to 6:20 as I could keep them. It was hot, and nobody else wanted to join me for the whole workout. I talked a couple people into running every other mile with me. The first three went well, but I could feel the fatigue during the fourth. I was still holding around 6:18 going into the fifth mile. When I hit 5 at 6:17 I knew I was going to make it. I realized about halfway through the 6th mile that if I did another lap I could break 40 minutes in a 10K. Hit the 6 mile mark at 6:19, cruised one lap at what felt like a leasurely 1:40 and finished with a 39:30. Physically the workout sucked. Six miles in the heat at near race pace in the middle of the training week was a big physical and mental challenge. I dreaded doing up beforehand and up through about 5 miles. Once I realized I COULD do it I was elated.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Here’s an interesting thread:  What was the best workout of your life? : You can define "best" as fastest, funnest, or most productive in terms of its : effect on your fitness or racing ability.. It would have to be a 6 mile tempo I did back in 96 when I was training for Marine Corp. At the time I was trying to break 3 hours in the ‘thon and had signed up with Mark Conover for internet coaching. He had me doing lots of long intervals and brutal tempos on the track. The goals were to a) make 6:51 feel easy, and b) teach me to pace myself. I had a lot of trouble with b. The goal was 6 miles at 6:20. Not a couple miles at 6:10, then a couple at 6:20, then a couple at 6:30, but 6 miles as close to 6:20 as I could keep them. It was hot, and nobody else wanted to join me for the whole workout. I talked a couple people into running every other mile with me. The first three went well, but I could feel the fatigue during the fourth. I was still holding around 6:18 going into the fifth mile. When I hit 5 at 6:17 I knew I was going to make it. I realized about halfway through the 6th mile that if I did another lap I could break 40 minutes in a 10K. Hit the 6 mile mark at 6:19, cruised one lap at what felt like a leasurely 1:40 and finished with a 39:30. Physically the workout sucked. Six miles in the heat at near race pace in the middle of the training week was a big physical and mental challenge. I dreaded doing up beforehand and up through about 5 miles. Once I realized I COULD do it I was elated.

A 2:58 marathon on a treadmill. As  promotion for a research project looking at glucose utilization during a marathon I ran a sub 3 hour marathon in a lab. To facilitate blood extraction I had a catheter in my left arm from which a nurse would draw blood every 15 minutes. In the last half hour the vein collapsed and they had to use a needle which led to some blood flying around. The medical staff was concerned that this would upset me but I thought it was great. I had water on demand and a large fan to keep me cool and of course, no sun, no wind, no hills  to worry about. I actually gained a pound during the marathon as opposed to losing the usual 3-5. I also did a TV interview at 20 miles which was fun. As I recall there was a poster of Grete Waitz (whom I had met at an indoor track meet in Ottawa) on the wall in front of the treadmill for inspiration. A number of runners I knew came by at various times to kibbutz. It was without doubt the easiest marathon I ever ran. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

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Its hard to pick out one of the 6000-some runs, but when there is fantastic and special scenery while your run is going well. Like seeing downtown San Fransisco poke out of the fog at sunrise while running in the Stanford hills … coming around a hill where I live now and seeing the snowcapped Rockies front range glowing red in the sunrise …

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A 2:58 marathon on a treadmill. As  promotion for a research project looking at glucose utilization during a marathon I ran a sub 3 hour marathon in a lab. To facilitate blood extraction I had a catheter in my left arm from which a nurse would draw blood every 15 minutes. In the last half hour the vein collapsed and they had to use a needle which led to some blood flying around. The medical staff was concerned that this would upset me but I thought it was great. I had water on demand and a large fan to keep me cool and of course, no sun, no wind, no hills  to worry about. I actually gained a pound during the marathon as opposed to losing the usual 3-5. I also did a TV interview at 20 miles which was fun. As I recall there was a poster of Grete Waitz (whom I had met at an indoor track meet in Ottawa) on the wall in front of the treadmill for inspiration. A number of runners I knew came by at various times to kibbutz. It was without doubt the easiest marathon I ever ran.

Excellent story!! Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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: Here’s an interesting thread:  What was the best workout of your life? : You can define "best" as fastest, funnest, or most productive in terms of its : effect on your fitness or racing ability..

My best, I’d have to say, is having its effect long afterward, and only indirectly does it affect my fitness and racing ability. I think is was 1993 or 94, anyway it was early in my running "career". I was finishing a three mile run, going up this rise near my house. I felt tired and was just plodding along. Then I looked to my right and it seemed like he appeared out of nowhere. He was an older gentleman and he quickly struck up a conversation.  We got to my house and talked. He left with a promise to do some runs with me. He kept that promise. His name is Don Robins. Since then he has helped me in training runs, coached me through two marathons, and told me countless stories of races, people, and places. During a training run he is almost always talking. He has pushed me in races, both by blowing my doors off and by sticking with me. I’ll never forget that training run when I first met him. Thanks, Don, for all the help!   Ed — Ed Prochak Magic Interface, Ltd. 440-498-3702

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -When I was 34 I ran a 5:12 mile on a banked indoor wooden track at the University of NC at Chapel Hill in an all-comers Friday night track meet. I did it as my weekly interval training in preparation for the 1981 Marine Corps Marathon.  It was my first and only ever competitive mile.  There were about 30 runners in the race.  I came in second to a 15 year old boy!  In November I ran the Marine Corps Marathon in 3 hours and 30 seconds.  I had the splits through the 22nd mile for a 2:49 marathon, but fell apart and couldn’t keep the pace up.  I think I averaged 6:12 miles through mile 22. Now at age 52 it is a challenge to run an 8 minute mile.  I usually run at an 8:45 pace for 5 miles 5 days a week.  I am 6′1" and weigh now 180.  In 1981 I weighed 162-165.

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Question:

{begin rant} Damnit!!!  Stop it!!! I keep seeing all of these great deals and I don’t have the cash for any of them!!  Every day I come in here and see all of this stuff for sale and I can’t buy any of it. Please, stop it.  For me…  so I don’t go nuts and rip off a bank to buy this stuff. {end rand} —  Salvador Santolucito III

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -{begin rant} Damnit!!!  Stop it!!! I keep seeing all of these great deals and I don’t have the cash for any of them!!  Every day I come in here and see all of this stuff for sale and I can’t buy any of it. Please, stop it.  For me…  so I don’t go nuts and rip off a bank to buy this stuff. {end rand} —  Salvador Santolucito III

Heh, heh…torturesome, isn’t it. Somehow, I see you coming into a good job after college, coming into a pile of money, and getting a revolutionary beam bike that weighs only 15 pounds, a $200 pair of shoes that eliminates all leg injuries and a cutting edge  hydrophobic wetsuit  that does the swimming for you. You’ll get your shot soon Sal. Patience is a virtue. You’ll get there.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

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Hey sal, Isn’t that what credit cards and financial aid are for? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – {begin rant} Damnit!!!  Stop it!!! I keep seeing all of these great deals and I don’t have the cash for any of them!!  Every day I come in here and see all of this stuff for sale and I can’t buy any of it. Please, stop it.  For me…  so I don’t go nuts and rip off a bank to buy this stuff. {end rand} —  Salvador Santolucito III

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In the mean time, can I interest you in a bridge???? ed m. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – {begin rant} Damnit!!!  Stop it!!! I keep seeing all of these great deals and I don’t have the cash for any of them!!  Every day I come in here and see all of this stuff for sale and I can’t buy any of it. Please, stop it.  For me…  so I don’t go nuts and rip off a bank to buy this stuff. {end rand} —  Salvador Santolucito III Heh, heh…torturesome, isn’t it. Somehow, I see you coming into a good job after college, coming into a pile of money, and getting a revolutionary beam bike that weighs only 15 pounds, a $200 pair of shoes that eliminates all leg injuries and a cutting edge  hydrophobic wetsuit  that does the swimming for you. You’ll get your shot soon Sal. Patience is a virtue. You’ll get there.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

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Hmmm, I wonder if anyone has some donatable just 1 yr outdated cool stuff for Sal.  I know he woudln’t squeeze into my old Carnacs, but I’m sure y’all are upgrading to new tech just as fast as I. I always donate my old stuff; and it’s not even that old !

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Any kid who can finagle his parents into buying him a new bike and a $200 HRM in the same year needs no donations from me.  Sal, I think you need to give me a lesson in sweet talking.  I’m running out of excuses to use on my wife. I’m just kidding damn it! Stacy Hills Reston, VA

|Hmmm, I wonder if anyone has some donatable just 1 yr outdated cool stuff |for Sal.  I know he woudln’t squeeze into my old Carnacs, but I’m sure y’all |are upgrading to new tech just as fast as I. | |I always donate my old stuff; and it’s not even that old ! | | |

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Lynne: Perhaps I could get you to talk to Tri 2 Fli about his 56cm Felt and my need for a triathlon bike… Regards, Kevin Mitchell Toronto, Canada – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmmm, I wonder if anyone has some donatable just 1 yr outdated cool stuff for Sal.  I know he woudln’t squeeze into my old Carnacs, but I’m sure y’all are upgrading to new tech just as fast as I. I always donate my old stuff; and it’s not even that old !

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Question:

  This pretty much sum’s it up I’d have to say.   Then again, I’m looking at triathlon with almost 20 years of history   in the sport.  Save it to say, both myself and the sport has grown   during this time.     Those who’ve been competing for many years probably remember early   triathlons where there were very few rules and in some cases, the   race director knew less about the sport than most of the competitors.     And competitors back then never considered drafting.  So, in this   respect, I feel fortunate I was able to develop as a triathlete in an   element that had very few distractions from the simple swim/bike/run   design of of the sport.   Fortunaltely the sport has continued to grow in popularity, and   competitiveness.  But with that, people will always look to find   an edge.  Some ways legal, others not.  It’s the "not" part that   needs to be looked at.   As a suggestion;     Perhaps USAT could have some "no drafting" banners and logo’s     printed up that races could purchase.  I believe the use of visual     aids goes a long way to educate the uniformed and reinforce the rules     of the race.  I think a few well placed banners in the transition area     and "no drafting" logo’s on the entry form would really help those     who might not fully understand the nature of a draft-free triathlon.  Home Page: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~twm/TTH.html

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Very well put Ruth. I agree totally. Our accompolishments in the Triathlon world only need to satisfy our inner self. Most people could care less how fast you,  who you beat, or who beat you.  After 6 Ironman Hawaii’s, I did as well as I could do under the circumstances at each one and that is whats important. It is the total package that is meaningful. The training, the qualifying, the good and the bad, all of the emotions, desire, comitment, passion, and personal  accompolishments is what makes triathletes special. You are living in a fantasy world if you try and go as hard as you can year after year. We must plan to have hard and easy years. Our sport is too demanding to train at maximum intensity or long durations continuously. You need to rest and not have the pressure of training and racing at high levels. As Dave Scott says," rest needs to be active" not static. Plan to have hard and easy years just like planning your workouts on a weekly basis. When we intelligently plan to have a fun easy year we feel good with the rest mentally and physically instead of feeling guilty about missing workouts or being un- motivated.  Belive me it is a lot more stimulating to know that after a hard training cycle that I am going to ease up and spend time with my family and recharge my motivation batteries and heal up the body from all the pounding and training. As long as I plan for this it then becomes the most important part of my lifetime of training. Staying fit must go on  forever. Burning out is not an option. Intelligent training is the key to a liftime of physical and mental fitness A few personal view points. Alan  

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Question:

Are there any other athletes suffering from ED? Last summer was my first triathlon season and because of training 16-20 hours a week I got more muscles than I had before. My waist and hips grew slightly and it makes me upset because my favorite pants are too tight. I am tempted to ignore this and just get new pants. But most of the time it makes me not want to eat so I can fit in them again. JmS

 YES, YES, YES!! I train for marathons, and at my peak I run 60-70 miles a week, plus weight train.  I also gained a little weight, mostly muscle, in my thighs and hips. The scale number isn’t much different, but my thighs are huge and muscular. It’s upsetting when every other distance runner I know seems to lose when training, but I just get bigger!!  Feel free to email if you’d like to talk!! Joan

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hi,   i have been researching websites/articles for just this topic for a 12 yr old 63 pound gymnast.  If you email me, i will forward you as many links as i can muster.  I have two mails in my support grup, if you care to join. it’s tuesdays at 10pm EST. my website is http://www.angelfire.com/ca/TheSkinny/index.html There is a site called someting fishy that has links to male sites: http://www.something-fishy.com/memorial.htm (sorry that’s to the memorial site, but just scroll Home)  also, mirror-mirror is a good resource: http://mirror-mirror.org/eatdis.html and finally, the an article on Healthwatch:  Athletes and ED’s http://virtual.chattanooga.net/news/healthwatch/hw008.html I wish you the best and hope that i helped insome way!

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Are there any other athletes suffering from ED? Last summer was my first triathlon season and because of training 16-20 hours a week I got more muscles than I had before. My waist and hips grew slightly and it makes me upset because my favorite pants are too tight. I am tempted to ignore this and just get new pants. But most of the time it makes me not want to eat so I can fit in them again. JmS

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I also run marathons and have muscular thighs. It also seems that  a lot of runners have boyish straight figures. I know that I have genetically been born with this body with curves and I should be happy, but I always seem to struggle to achieve that straight very thin body.

I suspect that those boyish figures are genetically determined – just as your more curvy body is.  From the above, I suspect that you have a very fit and therefore, very beautiful body!  I am just beginning counseling and feel very nervous.

Yes, nervousness is completely natural.  If the match is good, you will know it and become much more comfortable with the process.  I applaud your decision, Nicole. It would be great to get feedback. It seems difficult finding athletes with this problem on the support on-line boards.

The athletes in my life (including myself as having been a swimmer) are more concerned with their training vis-vis performance and giving their bodies everything necessary to always be healthy.  Whether it be nutritive adjustments or a day off every now and again. (snip) Muscles and bones and flesh create curves.  Therefore, I think curves are very naturally beautiful. Rosemary

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I also run marathons and have muscular thighs. It also seems that  a lot of runners have boyish straight figures. I know that I have genetically been born with this body with curves and I should be happy, but I always seem to struggle to achieve that straight very thin body. I am just beginning counseling and feel very nervous. It would be great to get feedback. It seems difficult finding athletes with this problem on the support on-line boards. Do you feel forced to train every day in some way? I also cycle. I was overtraining so severely that I became anemic and still struggle with this. The weakness is so difficult. It is great these boards exist,this is my first time to write. Thanks, Nicole

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Muscles and bones and flesh create curves.  Therefore, I think curves are very naturally beautiful.

*just* what i needed to hear.  thank you, rosemary. {{ hugs }} — http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/8195/

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I have very muscular thighs also for someone who runs. I think that it is a genetic predispostion that I can’t change, but I would like too. Triathlons are my main focus, and the swimming involved has made my measurements grow a little. I know this is normal but it is not something I want. My pants are tighter and I try to tell my self that it is a good thing to have all this muscle. Sometimes that doesn’t work either. I still feel insecure and fat. I just can’t break free. Jona

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jona, I was really helped by your post, because my thighs really bother me also. I am not sure I was the one that posted that message, but I am a marathon runner and sruggle to become thinner and thinner! I know that this is my genetic born body, but somehow I feel that I can change that(even though I know I can’t) My friends say I look great and someone the other day said it looks like I lost weight, this embarasses me, but of course I can’t see it! Do you ever suffer from weakness when you train? from not eating enough or overtrain? I have been reading a lot of the posts and am fairly new, I have been nervous to write and feel so alone. I’d love some feedback!

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Question:

: One thing we should always consider is – what are the person’s goals. To expand on this, it’s more than just the absolute time goals: it’s how much the person is desiring to maximize their potential.  This will differ based on natural talent, training background, etc. : Can someone run a sub 3 marathon with a maximum long run of 15 miles? Been there.  Done that.  Didn’t get a T-shirt, though. : Probably not. Can someone run a 4 hour marathon with that? Yes. Does : someone planning to run a 4 hour marathon need to run 20+ miles? Not : neccesarily. I just like to add a little counter-point to those who : insist that you HAVE to run 20+. First, as you said, the goal needs to be defined.  I’ll make a distinction between running a marathon and racing a marathon.  Running marathon means that your goal pace is slower that your typical training run.  In other words, you need to slow down simply to complete the distance.  If that is your goal, then runs over 20 miles are likely not needed, though I believe they would help. If you are going to race, to attempt to maximize your potential at the distance, where simply getting to the end is not a big deal but holding pace is, I think that runs over 20 are very helpful.  Simply put, you must have the distance base such that the mere mileage of the race is not daunting.  I think this is best achieved by doing the longest training runs you can provided they are not damaging you more than helping you.  This will obviously vary from person to person. Once you get to that point, you need to assess your own abilities to see what specific training will really help you.  I personally seem to have very good natural speed and a tendancy to run even my long runs at a pretty good clip.  But the distance is such that I tend to crash.  For me, I’ve found it’s pretty simple; the more distance I do, the better I run.  That correlation has yet to fail up to 80 miles a week and long runs of 21 miles. My friend Carlos, who posted about doing faster training runs, is a different case than I.  He habitually puts in way more mileage, and does not find the distance itself a problem.  His natural top end speed is pretty good, but he has trouble carrying the speed a long way.  For him, the faster paced long runs work well. For my friend Rick, the distance and holding speed was no problem.  He sustained long periods of 80 mile weeks and 20 mile runs as his standard training.  Throwing in an extra 6 on the occasional Sunday was not a problem.  What he really benefitted from was doing shorter runs and repeats much faster than marathon pace to increase his top speed. Among the elite, there are different things that work for different people.  I’ve heard stories of Jane Welzel going up and blasting hard for 20+ milers on mountain trails.  A friend who trained with Danny Gonzalez told of doing 2 10 mile loops: the first at a good pace (probably low 6 minutes for them) and having Danny rip the second 10 at well under 5:30 pace.  A woman friend who is hoping to hit the Olympic Trials qualifying this year has a workout I’ve dubbed the "lucky 7s" workout: 7 miles easy, 7 miles faster than marathon pace, the 7 miles easy at the end. There is one common theme there.  If you really want to be a good marathoner, it ain’t rocket science; run long and run fast. -pfrench

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Mike writes: If you’re simply saying that people who haven’t run marathons shouldn’t advise others on how to do it, I agree completely.  Sort of like the Pope giving sex advice… What I’m not sure of is who you’re talking about – which triathetes are "hammering" someone or giving out particularly bad advice. I haven’t picked up on that. And are you sure that the triathletes you have in mind haven’t done marathons?

Mike, No I wasn’t meaning you, just others I’ve read here and personally heard out at the park and local races. Probably on the same order of 5K’s and 10K’s to marathons. There are only a handful of IM distance events out there. Lots of shorter and middle distance tri’s, tho.

I figured after I wrote that it may be difficult to determine, like you said it would be like trying to compare shrter races vs. marathons.  Thanks for the info, I was just curious. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike writes: Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g Okay.  :)  Let me ask you a question Mike, this may be a little off subject and I’m not a TriGuy, just a runner/racer/coach.  I see where you do run the full marathon length in tri’s and/or in marathons so I can see where you would/can help on training for that distance.  Although we disagree on the mileage/distance needed.  :)  But alot of the people I see/hear doing Tri’s nowadays do the smaller more popular tri events.  The 1k swim, 40k bike, 5/10k run etc..  Nothing wrong with this, infact it’s great.  But I hear them delving out all this marathon advice when their long run in practice or the event may be a 10k or 10 miler at most, maybe a hair longer.  Same is said with the weekend runner or 5k runner giving out this advise who has no clue what it really takes, and they have never ran a marathon before.  I know they’re only trying to help but it just burns my butt when other marathoners try and give out sound distance advice and get hammered by them.

If you’re simply saying that people who haven’t run marathons shouldn’t advise others on how to do it, I agree completely.  Sort of like the Pope giving sex advice… What I’m not sure of is who you’re talking about – which triathetes are "hammering" someone or giving out particularly bad advice. I haven’t picked up on that. And are you sure that the triathletes you have in mind haven’t done marathons? Altho it is true that most triathlons are considerably shorter than an Ironman (THANK GOD!), so are most road races shorter than a marathon. Is it valid to criticize a triathlete for giving marathon advice – because they do mostly shorter non-Ironman races – yet accept advise from a runner who does mostly 5K’s and 10K’s? <IF both have done marathons, of course. You could even argue that a triathlete might be a good source of info on longer distance running because they always start out the run fatigued. The training needed to run a 10K in a tri – which might be preceded by an 1 1/2 hour effort, might be valuble in dealing with the last stages of a marathon. Again, I know we all want to help others here as this it what this forum is about.  But it concerns me when I see some of these statements and advice given that my not be helpful to the person asking for and needing help on the marathon.  I’m not suggesting it’s my way or the highway and I am always right or all marathoners are always right in their statements and coaching.  I’m not saying anyone (just because he’s a marathoner) is any smarter or better to coach than anyone else here but some of this advise I’ve seen here (in my opinion) is really non beneficial and maybe counterproductive and is given BY runners who have no idea what it takes to run a good marathon.

When giving running advice, I harken back to my "pure" running periods and what I did then. One thing we should always consider is – what are the person’s goals. I have no personally unique advise to give someone who wants to run a sub 3 hour marathon. That’s beyond my level. I can offer them standard, safe advise based on my background knowledge  - and from hanging out here. So I try to limit myself to responding to the more ordinary among us and leave the speed merchant questions to those who can do that. Can someone run a sub 3 marathon with a maximum long run of 15 miles? Probably not. Can someone run a 4 hour marathon with that? Yes. Does someone planning to run a 4 hour marathon need to run 20+ miles? Not neccesarily. I just like to add a little counter-point to those who insist that you HAVE to run 20+. <Not that you insist, mind you … Training for a triathlon and training for only runs is different, tho similar in principle. It’s the mixture of LSD, endurance, and speed workouts that works.  How you get them varies. Let me reiterate, everyone is intitled to their opinion and no individual is necessarily any better at coaching than anyone else.  Heck even the veterans disagree alot.  :)  But I believe the veteran marathoners here have a little more knowledge than some non marathoners in regards to the marathon and advice regarding training.

I couldn’t agree more. Just like I look for advice on training for the Ironman from previous Ironmen (and Ironwomen), someone looking to do a marathon should listen to vets. Whew!!! Oh, so I guess my question is:  :)   Do you have any idea of the number/ratio of participants in these shorter tri’s compared to the full length Ironman type tri’s?

Probably on the same order of 5K’s and 10K’s to marathons. There are only a handful of IM distance events out there. Lots of shorter and middle distance tri’s, tho. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/

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Still, I don’t think a run over 20 adds that much value. But it works for some people and you have to experiment to see what works for you. My inclination would be to do harder, shorter endurance runs. But my regimen also includes 4-5 hour bike rides, so those are my real long training bouts. If I’m gearing up for a marathon, I add some 15 mile runs, but that’s it. I couldn’t see running a marathon on 15 mile runs.  Although I guess if you ride your bike for a couple 100 miles you get the same cardiovascular benefits.  I’m wondering at what pace you do your long runs with compared to your marathon racing times? or are all of your marathons with a 2.4 mile swim and a 112 mile bike ride? Matt

My long runs are at about a minute per mile slower than my marathon race pace. I’m training now for my first Ironman Tri – which is the only triathlon with a marathon as the run. Most triathlons are shorter events, for example: Sprints: 1/4 mile S, 10 Mile B, 3 Mile R Olympic: 1 Mile S, 25 B, 6 R All my previous marathons have been unassociated with tri’s.I’ll probably run a marathon this spring as part of my training. My training mileage mix will be different than for other M’s, so it’ll be interesting to see how that goes. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/

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Benny writes:  A lot written but not a lot said David.  Some individuals are better at coaching than others, it would be a mistake thinking otherwise.  It would also be a mistake to assume that running a god marathon makes you well able to coach someone to a similar feat since i’m sure it has been said a million times before we are all indivduals and therefore have to be treated as such.  

True, every case is different, there are many variables in each case.  As a long time runner and coach I’m very aware of this.  Nor did I say any different. You seem to have disdain for non marathoners or weekend runners but surely you can accept that we can learn from anyones experience good or bad.  

I have no distain for anyone who is health minded and tries to better themself through running.  What I do have a problem with is someone who’s never ran over a 10 miler giving bad marathon advise and disputing others who have. The advice given on newsgroups is general in nature and on a take it or leave it basis since to give informed opinion on any form of training as it relates to that individual would need intimate knowledge of that individuals circumstances and we dont have it here.  Don’t get too serious about all this RUNNING is a sport and SPORTS are meant to be fun.  And before you jump on my case, yes I have run a marathon(admittedly not very fast) and I am a qualified distance coach and I learn a lot from the advise given here usually by the weekend runners. bm.

Good for you, and I’ll take input from everyone, but I’d say the veterans and pros should be, and are, alot more knowledgeable than a weekend warrior. That’s not putting down the weekend warrior, it’s just he’s not traveled the miles in some peoples shoes, shall we say.  And when he gives bad advise here that could hurt or hinder anothers performance we need to inform them of it. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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I agree with everyone. Actually my initial post was a request for help from anyone who had an idea how to prevent crashing in the last four or five miles of a marathon. I appreciate hearing lots of options, (except from the guy who said drive the last six miles),then I can pick the ones that I think may work for me. I would consider myself an old pro. I’m old, 51. I’ve completed 15 marathons in the last 11 years. And I even won $75 dollars in my last marathon for being 3rd in my age group, Does that make me a pro? Still, I want help and advice. Just because I’ve been training for and running marathons for 11 years doesn’t mean I know everything. What I do know is how to listen to my body and what I’m comfortable doing. So the different training suggestions were filtered through my own knowledge and experience. I got some great ideas. I will try the 13 X 2mi repeats at near race pace. But not monthly. I will try 20+ milers at race pace. And I will try a couple of other marathons at training pace befor my target race. Thanks to all who answered my post. Carl Muffoletto

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Benny writes: WHY DAVID we are not the running gestapo, let them hear all sides of the story and then make up their own minds. First because we’re here to help not hinder or hurt.  But as I stated in my intial post everyone has a right to their opinion.  I just don’t know why anyone in the first place would want to comment on marathon training if they’d never ran one or had no clue what they were talking about.  But if I’m a first time marathoner or an old pro at it I’d want input from someone who’s been there.  Just as if I were a new runner and wanted to start running or wanted to run a local fun run for the first time.  I’d ask other runners or racers, not my neighbor or my barber who wouldn’t have any idea since they’ve never run before.  But one reason my first post was so long was to try and avoid this, I made it as simplistic as possible.   No we are not the running gestapo, yes, as I’ve stated over and over everyone has a right to comment (please go back and read my intial post on this), but I (personally) have problems with new pilots flying the plane with instructors who have no clue what they’re doing up there. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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Benny writes: WHY DAVID we are not the running gestapo, let them hear all sides of the story and then make up their own minds.

First because we’re here to help not hinder or hurt.  But as I stated in my intial post everyone has a right to their opinion.  I just don’t know why anyone in the first place would want to comment on marathon training if they’d never ran one or had no clue what they were talking about.  But if I’m a first time marathoner or an old pro at it I’d want input from someone who’s been there.  Just as if I were a new runner and wanted to start running or wanted to run a local fun run for the first time.  I’d ask other runners or racers, not my neighbor or my barber who wouldn’t have any idea since they’ve never run before.  But one reason my first post was so long was to try and avoid this, I made it as simplistic as possible.   No we are not the running gestapo, yes, as I’ve stated over and over everyone has a right to comment (please go back and read my intial post on this), but I (personally) have problems with new pilots flying the plane with instructors who have no clue what they’re doing up there. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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 when he gives bad advise here that could hurt or hinder anothers performance we need to inform them of it.

WHY DAVID we are not the running gestapo, let them hear all sides of the story and then make up their own minds.

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Still, I don’t think a run over 20 adds that much value. But it works for some people and you have to experiment to see what works for you. My inclination would be to do harder, shorter endurance runs. But my regimen also includes 4-5 hour bike rides, so those are my real long training bouts. If I’m gearing up for a marathon, I add some 15 mile runs, but that’s it.

I couldn’t see running a marathon on 15 mile runs.  Although I guess if you ride your bike for a couple 100 miles you get the same cardiovascular benefits.  I’m wondering at what pace you do your long runs with compared to your marathon racing times? or are all of your marathons with a 2.4 mile swim and a 112 mile bike ride? Matt

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Do you guys think my age, 51, is a prohibitive factor? In 94 I did marathons 22 days apart and really crashed early, mile 18, in the second. Granted it was the Marine Corp in 94 (forever known unfortunately as Oprah’s marathon), in miserable weather conditions. But still I crashed early and had my worst finishing time ever, 4:07. I assumed I needed more rest. But if I get you right you believe a run or two at about marathon distance and only slightly below target race pace has worked for you. Worth a try I guess. Thanks for your input. Carl Muffoletto – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David writes: I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon. I agree with David.  I find my legs hold out much longer when I do a few 22-24 milers within 2 months of the marathon (but NOT on consecutive weeks). Actually I ran my best marathon only 6 weeks after running the NYC marathon nearly 20 years ago.  Two years ago, I ran a strong marathon (at least my legs didn’t give out and felt reasonably strong the last few miles) only 29 days after another pretty decent marathon.  For me, the bottom line is that giving my body a marathon or near-marathon experience helps better prepare me for the marathon. Ron

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David writes: I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.

I agree on the 20+ LSD runs but not a few weeks before the marathon. Too close to be hard enough to be beneficial and more likely to be done if you are not confident of your ability to finish the distance.Try this for a radical solution, 13 x 2 miles at 5s/mile faster than race pace with 1 min rec between reps.  Do this once a month all year round, alter times as neccesary. bm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike writes: Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g Okay.  :)  Let me ask you a question Mike, this may be a little off subject and I’m not a TriGuy, just a runner/racer/coach.  I see where you do run the full marathon length in tri’s and/or in marathons so I can see where you would/can help on training for that distance.  Although we disagree on the mileage/distance needed.  :)  But alot of the people I see/hear doing Tri’s nowadays do the smaller more popular tri events.  The 1k swim, 40k bike, 5/10k run etc..  Nothing wrong with this, infact it’s great.  But I hear them delving out all this marathon advice when their long run in practice or the event may be a 10k or 10 miler at most, maybe a hair longer.  Same is said with the weekend runner or 5k runner giving out this advise who has no clue what it really takes, and they have never ran a marathon before.

   A lot written but not a lot said David.  Some individuals are better at coaching than others, it would be a mistake thinking otherwise.  It would also be a mistake to assume that running a god marathon makes you well able to coach someone to a similar feat since i’m sure it has been said a million times before we are all indivduals and therefore have to be treated as such.  You seem to have disdain for non marathoners or weekend runners but surely you can accept that we can learn from anyones experience good or bad.  The advice given on newsgroups is general in nature and on a take it or leave it basis since to give informed opinion on any form of training as it relates to that individual would need intimate knowledge of that individuals circumstances and we dont have it here.  Don’t get too serious about all this RUNNING is a sport and SPORTS are meant to be fun.  And before you jump on my case, yes I have run a marathon(admittedly not very fast) and I am a qualified distance coach and I learn a lot from the advise given here usually by the weekend runners. bm.

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I did run a 50K (31 mi) trail run about a month before my last marathon. But this was at a real slow pace. I can’t imagine running 20+ mile training runs at race pace. At least not more that one.  Maybe if I was in my twenties, but at 51 it takes a lot longer to recover from that sort of effort. I’d love to be able to give it a try though. Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That still begs the question, how does one train, if not long runs, to not : run down at mile 21 (or 22 or 23)? : Carl Muffoletto I’d like to propose a different option.  I crashed and burned 6 marathons in a row, until I realized that it wasn’t the distance that was the problem — it was trying to hold a pace that my legs weren’t used to.  I could hold 6:00 miles for 16-20 miles, then I’d completely fall apart. Instead of running your long runs longer, run them closer to race pace.  I run my long runs at 6:30 – 6:40 pace now, with faster miles at the end.  I usually run 6-8 long runs before a marathon, from 18 to 20 miles, and 1 at 22-23 miles. My prior long run pace was around 7:30. I’ve now run 4 marathons in a row where I’ve held together through all 26.2 miles. There are some disadvantages to doing long runs faster —  - it takes longer for your legs to recover.  My track workouts on Tuesdays    are pretty poor once I start marathon training.  - if you do too many of them, you start going stale. On the other hand, I’ve found that I only need 6-8 long runs prior to a marathon, instead of 15-18. Carlos

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Gary Writes: Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury. I must disagree.  I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.  I’ve talked to several coaches and pros who even believe that to prepare your body you must run a full marathon in training.  I won’t do that myself.  But their thinking is, if you race 5k’s you run 5k’s beforehand, same with 5 milers, 10k’s, 10 milers. halfs, you need to prepare your body for that distance.  

Of course the big difference here <as you probably agree is that those 5K’s and 5 milers don’t beat up the legs like a 26.2 mile run does. But I believe Galloway’s longer runs include include numerous walking breaks to ease that problem.   Still, I don’t think a run over 20 adds that much value. But it works for some people and you have to experiment to see what works for you. My inclination would be to do harder, shorter endurance runs. But my regimen also includes 4-5 hour bike rides, so those are my real long training bouts. If I’m gearing up for a marathon, I add some 15 mile runs, but that’s it. Again I don’t do this either but a do believe that a few 22+ LSD’s are needed or at least helpful.  If you don’t agree then go to the 20 mile marker at any marathon and see how many people start falling apart, this is proof in itsself.

Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/

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Mike writes: Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g

Okay.  :)  Let me ask you a question Mike, this may be a little off subject and I’m not a TriGuy, just a runner/racer/coach.  I see where you do run the full marathon length in tri’s and/or in marathons so I can see where you would/can help on training for that distance.  Although we disagree on the mileage/distance needed.  :)  But alot of the people I see/hear doing Tri’s nowadays do the smaller more popular tri events.  The 1k swim, 40k bike, 5/10k run etc..  Nothing wrong with this, infact it’s great.  But I hear them delving out all this marathon advice when their long run in practice or the event may be a 10k or 10 miler at most, maybe a hair longer.  Same is said with the weekend runner or 5k runner giving out this advise who has no clue what it really takes, and they have never ran a marathon before.  I know they’re only trying to help but it just burns my butt when other marathoners try and give out sound distance advice and get hammered by them.  Again, I know we all want to help others here as this it what this forum is about.  But it concerns me when I see some of these statements and advice given that my not be helpful to the person asking for and needing help on the marathon.  I’m not suggesting it’s my way or the highway and I am always right or all marathoners are always right in their statements and coaching.  I’m not saying anyone (just because he’s a marathoner) is any smarter or better to coach than anyone else here but some of this advise I’ve seen here (in my opinion) is really non beneficial and maybe counterproductive and is given BY runners who have no idea what it takes to run a good marathon.  Let me reiterate, everyone is intitled to their opinion and no individual is necessarily any better at coaching than anyone else.  Heck even the veterans disagree alot.  :)  But I believe the veteran marathoners here have a little more knowledge than some non marathoners in regards to the marathon and advice regarding training.  Whew!!! Oh, so I guess my question is:  :)   Do you have any idea of the number/ratio of participants in these shorter tri’s compared to the full length Ironman type tri’s? Just my 2 cents for the day.  :) David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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David writes: I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.

I agree with David.  I find my legs hold out much longer when I do a few 22-24 milers within 2 months of the marathon (but NOT on consecutive weeks). Actually I ran my best marathon only 6 weeks after running the NYC marathon nearly 20 years ago.  Two years ago, I ran a strong marathon (at least my legs didn’t give out and felt reasonably strong the last few miles) only 29 days after another pretty decent marathon.  For me, the bottom line is that giving my body a marathon or near-marathon experience helps better prepare me for the marathon. Ron

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Carl: I’m not sure what your quad problem is but, if it’s simple fatigue, I think your longer runs in training should be closer to marathon distance. You’re a little faster (and 13 years better) than me so I offer this with a grain of salt. My long runs are 24 to 25 miles broken up into four 10K slices.  I have water "stops" at 6,12, and 18. For the first half (1-12) I keep even splits 2 minutes slower than 10K race pace; mile 12-18,  I speed-up to 1:30 slower than 10K pace and 18 -24, I try to push it to 1:00 over 10K pace. not an easy work-out but it seems effective in staving off late mile fatigue.  my first couple of marathons I followed the conventional "wisdom" of 20 mile maximum runs and crashed badly with hamstring cramps etc.. at miles 23 and 24. since adopting the above strategy for my last five marathons, i’m still very tired at the end but I haven’t crashed and I’m able to keep my speed up (even negative splits!). I know lots of training books adhere to the 20 mile maximum, but there are plenty of training methods that run counter. In fact, Galloway’s book called for long runs of 30 miles! Every one is an individual and you just have to see what works for you.  steve r.

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I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get. How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads!

I have never read Galloway’s book, but from my experience anything over 20 miles on pavement takes more effort than I get benefit. Why does Galloway say run longer distances? What pace does he recommend? I did run three hours on trails which I find less damaging than pavement in getting ready for my last marathon. But I still had the mile 21 miseries. Most responses to my post have recommended intermediate distances (12-15 miles) at race pace rather than 20 mile LSD’s. Intuitively it makes sense to run long distances to prepare to race long distances. But most advice is counter to that (except you say Galloway). There must be factory at work that I do not intuitively recognize. Carl Muffoletto

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: That still begs the question, how does one train, if not long runs, to not : run down at mile 21 (or 22 or 23)? : Carl Muffoletto I’d like to propose a different option.  I crashed and burned 6 marathons in a row, until I realized that it wasn’t the distance that was the problem — it was trying to hold a pace that my legs weren’t used to.  I could hold 6:00 miles for 16-20 miles, then I’d completely fall apart. Instead of running your long runs longer, run them closer to race pace.  I run my long runs at 6:30 – 6:40 pace now, with faster miles at the end.  I usually run 6-8 long runs before a marathon, from 18 to 20 miles, and 1 at 22-23 miles.   My prior long run pace was around 7:30. I’ve now run 4 marathons in a row where I’ve held together through all 26.2 miles. There are some disadvantages to doing long runs faster —   – it takes longer for your legs to recover.  My track workouts on Tuesdays     are pretty poor once I start marathon training.   – if you do too many of them, you start going stale. On the other hand, I’ve found that I only need 6-8 long runs prior to a marathon, instead of 15-18. Carlos

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Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury.

Bull Durham. Read Richard Benyo’s excellent book, _Making the Marathon your Event_. He includes a 22-23 mile run in many of his schedules. Bear in mind that your "professional runner" is putting in 90-120 mpw, i.e., averaging 13-17 miles per day. Consider, that one of the greatest running coaches in history, Arthur Lydiard, had his MILER, Peter Snell, complete a standard marathon race as part of his training FOR THE MILE! Worth noting is that Snell set several world records off this training. Mark Sandrock — (Not speaking for my employer.) Wolfram Research, Inc. Voice: 217-398-0700/x107

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Every marathon I’ve run, except for the very slow ones when I didn’t push myself, I have had a problem at about mile 21 or 22. My quads become very sore and I can hardly lift my legs. Every step is painful. Of course my pace slows way down. Can anyone offer advice on how I should train, eat, race etc. to prevent this problem, or at least delay it? I am 51 and a 3:20 marathoner. — Carl S. Muffoletto Network Manager VP Buildings

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I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get. How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads!

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I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get.  How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads!

Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury. GK I wish Pheidippides had died at mile 12! Gary W. Kopycinski             Ecclesia Semper Reformanda! http://homepage.interaccess.com/~frodojrr      Team OS/2!           Shire Enterprises FAX * (708) 755-0915 * Bart’s Blackboard : "The principal’s toupee is not a Frisbee."

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Gary Writes: Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury.

I must disagree.  I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.  I’ve talked to several coaches and pros who even believe that to prepare your body you must run a full marathon in training.  I won’t do that myself.  But their thinking is, if you race 5k’s you run 5k’s beforehand, same with 5 milers, 10k’s, 10 milers. halfs, you need to prepare your body for that distance.  Again I don’t do this either but a do believe that a few 22+ LSD’s are needed or at least helpful.  If you don’t agree then go to the 20 mile marker at any marathon and see how many people start falling apart, this is proof in itsself. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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That still begs the question, how does one train, if not long runs, to not run down at mile 21 (or 22 or 23)? Carl Muffoletto

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get.  How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads! Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury. GK I wish Pheidippides had died at mile 12! Gary W. Kopycinski             Ecclesia Semper Reformanda! http://homepage.interaccess.com/~frodojrr      Team OS/2!          Shire Enterprises FAX * (708) 755-0915 * Bart’s Blackboard : "The principal’s toupee is not a Frisbee."

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Question:

A suggestion that has worked for me 1)  once a week go for a 25-30 mile ride.  Finish at a track.  Get off yur bike and run 4xone mile repeats. Take at least two minutes rest between miles.  Try to descend each mile.    Finish with a easy half mile cool down. Another alternative is to run a long hill…one that lasts three-five minutes  Repeat at least 5-6 times.  These will be intense but they should help you run fast when you get off the bike.  A heart monitor would be a great benefit, but go through a maximum stress test before you rely on it.  More info..E-mail me

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Hey there, I would like to know if anyone can help me with my interval training for my running.  I am mainly going to be competing in mid to olympic distance races this season.  If anyone can help me with setting up a program or what intervals I could do, I would appricate greatly.   Thanks.

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Hey everyone, I would like to know whether anyone can help me in setting up an interval program to help my run.  I will be competing in mid to olympic distance race this summer.  If anyone can help me, that would be great.  Thanks.

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rest in between once or twice a week, and would do longer runs (10-12k) two other days a week (warm-up before and cool down afterwards, of course) and it helped decrease my 5k (on a triathlon) from 24 to about 21′-21′30". Do it and let me know if (and how) it works for you. Enrico Canali Average South Brazil age-grouper

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Question:

(Stephen Tanner Irish) writes: OK, now this is a topic worthy of discussion.  One thing that I have wondered about regarding these fat-burning strategies:  is the claim that by altering your training and diet in the right ways you can change something about the way that your metabolism works?  People talk about

i think you burn more going longer than going faster. Frank

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One thing that I have wondered about regarding these fat-burning    

strategies:  is the claim that by altering your training and diet in the right ways you can change something about the way that your       metabolism works?  People talk about "teaching" their bodies how to   burn fat.  Does this mean that you actually change something about   the way your body works?  Can you condition your metabolism the way   that you can build strength in your muscles?  I’d love to think that it is true, but I can (sic) shake my skepticism.   It seems logical enough to me that you can train your body to burn fat more efficiently just as you can train it to use glycogen more efficiently. Normally for the type of intensity in *Olympic* distance triathlons and perhaps the elite at longer distances it is the glycogen system that is all important as it allows you to race at a higher intensity. However for most people in IM it is fat burning that is going to predominate just because of the length of time they will be racing and because it is unlikely that they will be able to train themselves sufficiently to race at *glycogen system* pace the whole way. IYSWIM. Regards: Jack Maitland

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I think you may want to look into some physiology books are your own free time, it may be more benificial to study tests done in the laboratory. There has been an increasing amount of obesity in the u.s. and it’s because too many people believe that if you eat fat you get fat, but on the contrary it’s all a matter ofg calories no matter where it comes from.  As far as being able to burn fat, fats need to be in the diet to burn them, your body does not know how to burn fat if it is not in the diet. In addition to telling people not to eat fat it might also be interesting for you to also p[oint out the loss of the fat soluable vitamins thay will not be absorbed ie vit E, vit A… which are probably the most important in reducing the heavy effects of intense oxidation that many athletes go through

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(Stephen Tanner Irish) writes: OK, now this is a topic worthy of discussion.  One thing that I have wondered about regarding these fat-burning strategies:  is the claim that by altering your training and diet in the right ways you can change something about the way that your metabolism works?  People talk about "teaching" their bodies how to burn fat.  Does this mean that you actually change something about the way your body works?  Can you condition your metabolism the way that you can build strength in your muscles?  I’d love to think that it is true, but I can shake my skepticism.   Steve Irish

When training for endurance, your body does actually change – a lot ! Think about it – your metabolism probably isn’t used to running, cycling or swimming for several hours at a time. Personally, I’m sat down at my job for 7-8 hours a day, and if I didn’t partake in endurance sport, I would not be able to run for 3+ hours etc. and my butt would be much larger. In response to my training, my body has indeed lost fat – and the more I train for long steady runs, the more fat I lose, till it gets to the point where I actually crave a whole pint of Ben & Jerrys. Heavy training has made my metabolism much faster – I need to eat huge amounts of food, just to keep my weight the same – now if I stopped training, and kept my food intake the same, what do you think would happen ? Yes, bigger butt, slower metabolism, fat storage (although I could believe that I still might be able to pile through a pint of Ben & Jerrys !) John Kemp

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QUESTION:  On these types of long slow rides, what is the best way to train my body to used stored fat? 1. Don’t eat, use up the glycogens  and ride the rest on fats.

don’t do this, just don’t ! starving yourself won’t make you burn fat. OR 2. Ride really easy, eat carbos and try to avoid the bonk altogether. OR something else?

IMHO its important to eat and drink when you go long on wheels or foot. Endurance is stressful,and you don’t ‘get used to’ dehydration or bonking. The bit thats doing you good is ‘ going long ‘, so the longer you can go (lets be sensible tho’) the better. If you keep your style throughout and break it up a bit (hills will do this for you), even better. You ‘burn fat’ by staying aerobic for longer durations, but you want to go faster, right ? so break it up with varying efforts. Its important to remember that your body already burns fat, you just want to get better at it. tim

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: if you are using Maffetones book, why not get on the PR nutrition program? : I have lost considerable body fat with the bars and diet, the bars are : aimed : at burning fat.  The program works. good luck. : tmk : bradenton, fl. OK, now this is a topic worthy of discussion.  One thing that I have wondered about regarding these fat-burning strategies:  is the claim that by altering your training and diet in the right ways you can change something about the way that your metabolism works?  People talk about "teaching" their bodies how to burn fat.  Does this mean that you actually change something about the way your body works?  Can you condition your metabolism the way that you can build strength in your muscles?  I’d love to think that it is true, but I can shake my skepticism.   Steve Irish

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Not eating during a long ride is a mistake. Eating something like a powerbar will actually stimulate the burning of more calories. Dehydrating yourself does not make your body use water more efficiently. —     Ryun Pavlicek                                 Dept of Sociology     University of Virginia                      

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anyway, whatever your speed is (well not 10mph but…) you just don’t go for 5 hours ride without eating!!! would you run a marathon without drinking??? But isn’t the reason for not eating to stimulate the metabolism to burn fat. If you eat, don’t you inhibit this process, since your body has alternative sources of energy. I saw a programme about Richard Neureker; he said he

According to Colgan’s book, _Optimum Sports Nutrition_, this isn’t true. He explains it very well …  (according to memory) fasting tells your body to conserve energy, which your body does by *lowering* your metabolic rate. To reduce your fat stores, reduce your fat intake and increase your carbohydrate intake.  Your body finds it easier to replace fat you burn with fat you eat than to convert carbs and protein to fat for later conversion back to stuff muscles can use. Basically, if you’re hungry, eat.  If you want to loose fat, don’t eat fat. The book goes into quite exhaustive detail on what you should and shouldn’t eat.  It also cites references and even troubles to mention when his advice has no current empirical studies to support it (just personal experience). – Tim Iverson

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you can burn fat doing rides without eating but do not ride more than 2-3 hours at 60 to 70% of your possibilities… 5 hours rides without eating is just non sense because to burn fatyou also need glycogen and at 5 hours you are short of it and can’t burn anything anymore so you just bonk!! Francois

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you can burn fat doing rides without eating but do not ride more than 2-3 hours at 60 to 70% of your possibilities… 5 hours rides without eating is just non sense because to burn fatyou also need glycogen and at 5 hours you are short of it and can’t burn anything anymore so you just bonk!!

   Excellent point. I believe I recall that both sodium and glucose(?) are req’d to utilize carbohydrate as fuel. And from a Flasetti article (9/95 Competitor): a 33 yr old male triathlete exercising at the highest proportional "fat-burning" range listed (90 bpm) is burning 80% fat & 20% carbohydrate for fuel.    So if youre going long and easy, you’re still going to use some carbohydrate. Enough that you’ll need to replenish during the ride? I don’t know, but I’d bet that I’d bonk if *I* didn’t. Of course if you aren’t able to utilize fat stores due to a lack of complimentary sugars and salts, isn’t the only alternative energy source the cannibalization of muscle tissue? Kurian Davis

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if you are using Maffetones book, why not get on the PR nutrition program? I have lost considerable body fat with the bars and diet, the bars are aimed at burning fat.  The program works. good luck. tmk bradenton, fl.

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QUESTION:  On these types of long slow rides, what is the best way to train my body to used stored fat?

I’m sure there are many different advices, but remember this:         "Fat burns in a carbohydrate fire" You can train to make you your body burn fat, but it will always need a carbohydrate supply to do so. my 2 cents worth – Brendan Brendan Leitch B.Sc. MBA             __               Any views expressed, NorTel Technology Centre             /               are not my employers, University of Wollongong                              but mine only. New South Wales, Australia Tel. +61-(042)-242817                        I live in OZ, but am on ESN          639-2817                        a Canadian internet node                                              so I require world distribution

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I’ve been doing aerobic base-building (per Maffetone’s suggestion in his book) for about a month.  The distances are long (3-5 hours) and slow (keeping aerobic). After 1:45 to 2:00 on the bike, my heartrate starts to go up and my legs start to fade a little.  I’m pretty certain that this is the beginnings of glycogen depletion. By the way, I don’t eat before the ride and do little if any eating during.  Past 2:00 hrs on the bike, I slow way down to keep my heart rate in the aerobic region (at this point it’s really easy to make it go ballistic). QUESTION:  On these types of long slow rides, what is the best way to train my body to used stored fat? 1. Don’t eat, use up the glycogens  and ride the rest on fats. OR 2. Ride really easy, eat carbos and try to avoid the bonk altogether. OR something else? — Keith Outwater

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anyway, whatever your speed is (well not 10mph but…) you just don’t go for 5 hours ride without eating!!! would you run a marathon without drinking???

Response:

anyway, whatever your speed is (well not 10mph but…) you just don’t go for 5 hours ride without eating!!! would you run a marathon without drinking???

But isn’t the reason for not eating to stimulate the metabolism to burn fat. If you eat, don’t you inhibit this process, since your body has alternative sources of energy. I saw a programme about Richard Neureker; he said he doesn’t eat before or during his long steady runs, in order to maximise this process. Also, I don’t think riding without eating is like running without drinking. Steve Mustard, Surrey, UK Tel:   +44 171 637 9111×4105 Fax:   +44 1932 869102 Opinions are mine and not those of Logica.

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Question:

Hello all, Out of three sports in triathlon, running has been my best event; however, after trying to bring up the other two sports up to the same level as my running, it has sort of become the one I like the least. One of the contributing factor is a funny knee condition I have when I run. It started about half a year ago. Usually runners experience knee discomfort when they land, but mine is when I am taking the stride. This only happens to my right leg: when it is in the air to take the stride, flexing from back to the front, it feels like someone inside the knee is rubbing on a funny bone on the right side of the right knee. The precise location is just under the right knee cap, on the outside edge of the knee joint. It would start out to be some kind of slight annoying feelings, like someone is tickling a nerve, then develop into an intolerable sharp and short burst of sensation on the nerve inside in about 10 minutes. The feeling is so intensive that it makes my heart "skip" everytime I am in the air taking the next stride. I would not categorize it as pain because it goes away right immediately if I don’t aggravate it. But it is very uncomfortable. When I land, however, it is no problem, nice and firm, but when my right leg is in the air, it rubs on some nerve and really bugs me. The condition is not consistent; some days if I ignore it, it goes away and I will only feel it if I walk down the stairs after the run, but the annoyance is tolerable. Some days it decides to stay, and progressively gets worse as I run. After a while, it is so annoying that I cannot keep running because whenever I am in the air flexing my knee, the sensation of rubbing on the "funny bone" is so great that I literally "jump" in the air, affecting my concentration on taking the next stride. This is particular upsetting when I am running really well: no muscle fatiquing, no breathing problem, every thing is just fine, and I am forced to stop to walk the rest of the way because of this intolerable annoyance. Has anyone had experienced this symptom? I went to see my school’s doctor, and he said : "oh, you have runner’s knee. Just rest." Well, that does not really tell/help me anything; we all know we need to rest if we are tired, but how about when we are not tired and what is stopping us is not mental or physical fatique? Thank you for any advice!! Chia — This is my signature file. ps. boring, eh?

Response:

What you have sounds like ITB (Ilio-Tibular Band Syndrome). Basically there is this band that is rubbing against a bone on the outside of your knee which gets inflamed and causes pain.  It can be a very difficult injury to get rid of, I’m currently battling my second case of it in two years.   I think the most important treatment is stretching.  My favorite stretch is as follows.  To stretch your right knee, stand with your right side facing a wall.  Cross your left foot in front of your right.  Lean your body towards the wall stretching your right hip and the outside of your right knee.  I stretch every morning and evening and also before and after every bike and run. I also the ice the knee after running.  Some people recommend alternating ice and heat, though I don’t know how to heat the knee. (Hair dryer?!?  :-) I am at the point where it never hurts while I run (though I don’t push it) but it sometimes hurts later that night. If you can, try to find a more useful doctor, they are hard to find but they are out there. Jeff O’Neill

Response:

What you have sounds like ITB (Ilio-Tibular Band Syndrome). Basically there is this band that is rubbing against a bone on the outside of your knee which gets inflamed and causes pain.  It can be a very difficult injury to get rid of, I’m currently battling my second case of it in two years.  

Hello, I suspected it was ITB, but I thought the runner experiences discomfort when landing. Since I did not have any symptoms during landing, I wasn’t sure it was ITB Syndrome. That is why I posted for confirmation. I did try to do the ITB exercise, but I guess I did not do enough of it. Thank you for your opinion. Chia — This is my signature file. ps. boring, eh?

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Hello all, Out of three sports in triathlon, running has been my best event; however, after trying to bring up the other two sports up to the same level as my running, it has sort of become the one I like the least. One of the contributing factor is a funny knee condition I have when I run.

Chia

I am no expert but it sounds as though you have aggravated a nerve on the lateral side of the right knee.  Although the main nerve trunk runs posteriorly, you may have some local nerve endings on the lateral facet of your lateral condyle.  I suggest you try a brace (Cho-Pat) that medializes your patella and see if this helps reduce the irritation.   If your cycling shoes are on a tilt or your seat is too far back, you may be aggravating your ACL. Hope this helps.  Good luck Bruce Ackman

Response:

Hello all, Out of three sports in triathlon, running has been my best event; however, after trying to bring up the other two sports up to the same level as my running, it has sort of become the one I like the least. One of the contributing factor is a funny knee condition I have when I run.

Chia

I am no expert but it sounds as though you have aggravated a nerve on the lateral side of the right knee.  Although the main nerve trunk runs posteriorly, you may have some local nerve endings on the lateral facet of your lateral condyle.  I suggest you try a brace (Cho-Pat) that medializes your patella and see if this helps reduce the irritation.   If your cycling shoes are on a tilt or your seat is too far back, you may be aggravating your ACL. Hope this helps.  Good luck Bruce Ackman

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