Question:

I know, I know- go see a Dr.  I probably will.  But until then- here’s the question:  What the characteristics of stress fracture?  I can feel pain in my right shin a bit when running, but can compensate with a slight change in stride.  The pain isn’t bad. I’ve tried tapping the shin bone but can’t tell if the area is all that sore or not.  The strange thing is- the pain is worst when I first wake up and get out of bed and start walking.  Yesterday was very short run (3 miles easy pace).  The pain the shin was sharp as I was walking to the start. Once I started running, it felt very slight- really just a dull, light painful feeling.  After the run, no more pain when walking. So~ stress fracture or something else? Thanks…

Response:

I’m not an expert, but had done some readings on injury because I’m having problems with my right shin.  From what I read, I guess you don’t have stress fracture because you feel worst when waking up. Take a look at this article on runner’s world website: http://www.runnersworld.com/home/0,1300,1-78-79-529,FF.html?site=Runn… Note in the paragraph about stress fracture a doctor says that "Usually stress fractures feel better in the morning because you’ve rested the bone all night." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know, I know- go see a Dr.  I probably will.  But until then- here’s the question:  What the characteristics of stress fracture?  I can feel pain in my right shin a bit when running, but can compensate with a slight change in stride.  The pain isn’t bad. I’ve tried tapping the shin bone but can’t tell if the area is all that sore or not.  The strange thing is- the pain is worst when I first wake up and get out of bed and start walking.  Yesterday was very short run (3 miles easy pace).  The pain the shin was sharp as I was walking to the start. Once I started running, it felt very slight- really just a dull, light painful feeling.  After the run, no more pain when walking. So~ stress fracture or something else? Thanks…

Response:

I know, I know- go see a Dr.  I probably will.  But until then- here’s the question:  What the characteristics of stress fracture?  I can feel pain in my right shin a bit when running, but can compensate with a slight change in stride.  The pain isn’t bad. I’ve tried tapping the shin bone but can’t tell if the area is all that sore or not.  The strange thing is- the pain is worst when I first wake up and get out of bed and start walking.  Yesterday was very short run (3 miles easy pace).  The pain the shin was sharp as I was walking to the start. Once I started running, it felt very slight- really just a dull, light painful feeling.  After the run, no more pain when walking. So~ stress fracture or something else?

Could be "shin splints" (tendonitis). Doesn’t sound much like a stress fracture, a stress fracture should get worse as you run, whereas pain from soft tissue injuries attenuates as the run progresses. Your description of the pain — peaking in the morning upon arising, and generally fading during the run is also the way soft tissue injuries (tendons) work. Surprisingly, shin splints can involve sharp jolting pain. Here’s what I’d suggest: try taking a couple of days off, say 3 days or so. See if you can run without pain after that. I had a problem with shin splints once and the problem was out the way in less than a week because I took the bitter bill of downtime early. Once you return to training, you will need to take a good hard look at your program and work out what caused the problem. Running too fast or too much speed work, and too-much-too-soon are leading causes of shin splints. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Thank you so much for the replies. I have been doing some stupid things in my training.  For instance, I’ve done speedwork during a run.  And I felt so good I allowed it to become a long run, even doing speedwork again towards the end of the run (12-15 mile runs).  Not a good thing to combine both. Last week, I did a fast six-miler in the morning.  Then I ran another 4 on hills with a friend in the afternoon.  And- instead of resting the next day, I did another six-miler in the morning.  Yeah- I needed this reminder that I’m far from bulletproof. I’ll take some time off (few days) and just spin on the bike or something (low gear) and see how it goes. Thanks again!

: I know, I know- go see a Dr.  I probably will.  But until then- here’s the : question:  What the characteristics of stress fracture?  I can feel pain in : my right shin a bit when running, but can compensate with a slight change in : stride.  The pain isn’t bad. : : I’ve tried tapping the shin bone but can’t tell if the area is all that sore : or not.  The strange thing is- the pain is worst when I first wake up and : get out of bed and start walking.  Yesterday was very short run (3 miles : easy pace).  The pain the shin was sharp as I was walking to the start. : Once I started running, it felt very slight- really just a dull, light : painful feeling.  After the run, no more pain when walking. : : So~ stress fracture or something else? : : Could be "shin splints" (tendonitis). Doesn’t sound much like a stress : fracture, a stress fracture should get worse as you run, whereas pain from : soft tissue injuries attenuates as the run progresses. Your description of : the pain — peaking in the morning upon arising, and generally fading during : the run is also the way soft tissue injuries (tendons) work. Surprisingly, shin : splints can involve sharp jolting pain. : : Here’s what I’d suggest: try taking a couple of days off, say 3 days or so. See : if you can run without pain after that. I had a problem with shin splints once : and the problem was out the way in less than a week because I took the bitter : bill of downtime early. : : Once you return to training, you will need to take a good hard look at your : program and work out what caused the problem. Running too fast or too much : speed work, and too-much-too-soon are leading causes of shin splints. : : Cheers, : — : Donovan Rebbechi : http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

hey bikeme!  nice to see you in alternate environs. hope the pain subsides.  i, too, have had stress fracture fears recently.  a biker turned experimental runner, but still somewhat skeptical of all the potential impact.  at least cycling is nice to the bod, although one longs for use on the underside of the thigh. (are my posts showing up here?!)                       \  - –  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

Response:

Virginiaz?  That’s where I’m located… Riding is awesome, but the toll on the skeletal frame is huge.  Bicycle Mag did a feature on it recently.  Running adds weight-bearing to the mix, helping to build-up the bones. The impact of running is an issue, but there are safety measures- no more than 10% increase in speed or distance per week, etc.  And the body does adapt over time.  I’m now running 40 miles per week.  I’ve been a bit reckless in my training, though…

: hey bikeme!  nice to see you in alternate environs. : : hope the pain subsides.  i, too, have had stress fracture fears recently. a : biker turned experimental runner, but still somewhat skeptical of all the : potential impact.  at least cycling is nice to the bod, although one longs for : use on the underside of the thigh. : : (are my posts showing up here?!) : :                       \  - –  // :                      oooO   (    ) :                       (     )     )  / :                          (     (_

Response:

Speaking as a biker/runner, I’d very much recommend alternating your running and biking days until your connective tissue toughens up a bit from the running. It took me on the order of a year to really make the transition. I still like to x-train with the bike as it helps with my recovery and loosens everything up. As a shin stress fracture sufferer, I can tell you that the pain of running on a stress fracture can bring tears to your eyes, make you limp when you’re walking, feel like someone sawed your tibia in two … you get the idea. It’s not something you can avoid by adjusting your stride. In addition to Donovan’s good advice, I’d add take a look at your shoes if rest days and lower intensity don’t solve the problem. Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you so much for the replies. I have been doing some stupid things in my training.  For instance, I’ve done speedwork during a run.  And I felt so good I allowed it to become a long run, even doing speedwork again towards the end of the run (12-15 mile runs).  Not a good thing to combine both. Last week, I did a fast six-miler in the morning.  Then I ran another 4 on hills with a friend in the afternoon.  And- instead of resting the next day, I did another six-miler in the morning.  Yeah- I needed this reminder that I’m far from bulletproof. I’ll take some time off (few days) and just spin on the bike or something (low gear) and see how it goes. Thanks again! : I know, I know- go see a Dr.  I probably will.  But until then- here’s the : question:  What the characteristics of stress fracture?  I can feel pain in : my right shin a bit when running, but can compensate with a slight change in : stride.  The pain isn’t bad. : : I’ve tried tapping the shin bone but can’t tell if the area is all that sore : or not.  The strange thing is- the pain is worst when I first wake up and : get out of bed and start walking.  Yesterday was very short run (3 miles : easy pace).  The pain the shin was sharp as I was walking to the start. : Once I started running, it felt very slight- really just a dull, light : painful feeling.  After the run, no more pain when walking. : : So~ stress fracture or something else? : : Could be "shin splints" (tendonitis). Doesn’t sound much like a stress : fracture, a stress fracture should get worse as you run, whereas pain from : soft tissue injuries attenuates as the run progresses. Your description of : the pain — peaking in the morning upon arising, and generally fading during : the run is also the way soft tissue injuries (tendons) work. Surprisingly, shin : splints can involve sharp jolting pain. : : Here’s what I’d suggest: try taking a couple of days off, say 3 days or so. See : if you can run without pain after that. I had a problem with shin splints once : and the problem was out the way in less than a week because I took the bitter : bill of downtime early. : : Once you return to training, you will need to take a good hard look at your : program and work out what caused the problem. Running too fast or too much : speed work, and too-much-too-soon are leading causes of shin splints. : : Cheers, : — : Donovan Rebbechi : http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

Thanks, Scott.  Actually, although I’ve done a few triathlons, I spent the past year concentrating mostly on running.  Did a marathon this past November.  It’s the biking I’ve been neglecting.  Just getting back into it and it’s killing my Achilles Tendonitis.  Oh well- always something!  Makes overcoming that much sweeter… Thanks again, Brian

: Speaking as a biker/runner, I’d very much recommend alternating your : running and biking days until your connective tissue toughens up a bit : from the running. It took me on the order of a year to really make the : transition. I still like to x-train with the bike as it helps with my : recovery and loosens everything up. : : As a shin stress fracture sufferer, I can tell you that the pain of : running on a stress fracture can bring tears to your eyes, make you limp : when you’re walking, feel like someone sawed your tibia in two … you : get the idea. It’s not something you can avoid by adjusting your stride. : : In addition to Donovan’s good advice, I’d add take a look at your shoes : if rest days and lower intensity don’t solve the problem. : : Scott :

: Thank you so much for the replies. : : I have been doing some stupid things in my training.  For instance, I’ve : done speedwork during a run.  And I felt so good I allowed it to become a : long run, even doing speedwork again towards the end of the run (12-15 mile : runs).  Not a good thing to combine both. : : Last week, I did a fast six-miler in the morning.  Then I ran another 4 on : hills with a friend in the afternoon.  And- instead of resting the next day, : I did another six-miler in the morning.  Yeah- I needed this reminder that : I’m far from bulletproof. : : I’ll take some time off (few days) and just spin on the bike or something : (low gear) and see how it goes. : : Thanks again! : : : : I know, I know- go see a Dr.  I probably will.  But until then- here’s : the : : question:  What the characteristics of stress fracture?  I can feel pain : in : : my right shin a bit when running, but can compensate with a slight : change in : : stride.  The pain isn’t bad. : : : : I’ve tried tapping the shin bone but can’t tell if the area is all that : sore : : or not.  The strange thing is- the pain is worst when I first wake up : and : : get out of bed and start walking.  Yesterday was very short run (3 miles : : easy pace).  The pain the shin was sharp as I was walking to the start. : : Once I started running, it felt very slight- really just a dull, light : : painful feeling.  After the run, no more pain when walking. : : : : So~ stress fracture or something else? : : : : Could be "shin splints" (tendonitis). Doesn’t sound much like a stress : : fracture, a stress fracture should get worse as you run, whereas pain from : : soft tissue injuries attenuates as the run progresses. Your description of : : the pain — peaking in the morning upon arising, and generally fading : during : : the run is also the way soft tissue injuries (tendons) work. Surprisingly, : shin : : splints can involve sharp jolting pain. : : : : Here’s what I’d suggest: try taking a couple of days off, say 3 days or : so. See : : if you can run without pain after that. I had a problem with shin splints : once : : and the problem was out the way in less than a week because I took the : bitter : : bill of downtime early. : : : : Once you return to training, you will need to take a good hard look at : your : : program and work out what caused the problem. Running too fast or too much : : speed work, and too-much-too-soon are leading causes of shin splints. : : : : Cheers, : : — : : Donovan Rebbechi : : http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ : :

Response:

well shoot, you know the drill. do i recognize your handle from wreck.bikes.racing (haven’t followed that group for quite awhile)? when running beats my legs up, i find the biking very soothing. interesting your achilles hurt from biking. hmmmm. keep the rubber side down. scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Scott.  Actually, although I’ve done a few triathlons, I spent the past year concentrating mostly on running.  Did a marathon this past November.  It’s the biking I’ve been neglecting.  Just getting back into it and it’s killing my Achilles Tendonitis.  Oh well- always something!  Makes overcoming that much sweeter… Thanks again, Brian : Speaking as a biker/runner, I’d very much recommend alternating your : running and biking days until your connective tissue toughens up a bit : from the running. It took me on the order of a year to really make the : transition. I still like to x-train with the bike as it helps with my : recovery and loosens everything up. : : As a shin stress fracture sufferer, I can tell you that the pain of : running on a stress fracture can bring tears to your eyes, make you limp : when you’re walking, feel like someone sawed your tibia in two … you : get the idea. It’s not something you can avoid by adjusting your stride. : : In addition to Donovan’s good advice, I’d add take a look at your shoes : if rest days and lower intensity don’t solve the problem. : : Scott : : Thank you so much for the replies. : : I have been doing some stupid things in my training.  For instance, I’ve : done speedwork during a run.  And I felt so good I allowed it to become a : long run, even doing speedwork again towards the end of the run (12-15 mile : runs).  Not a good thing to combine both. : : Last week, I did a fast six-miler in the morning.  Then I ran another 4 on : hills with a friend in the afternoon.  And- instead of resting the next day, : I did another six-miler in the morning.  Yeah- I needed this reminder that : I’m far from bulletproof. : : I’ll take some time off (few days) and just spin on the bike or something : (low gear) and see how it goes. : : Thanks again! : : : : I know, I know- go see a Dr.  I probably will.  But until then- here’s : the : : question:  What the characteristics of stress fracture?  I can feel pain : in : : my right shin a bit when running, but can compensate with a slight : change in : : stride.  The pain isn’t bad. : : : : I’ve tried tapping the shin bone but can’t tell if the area is all that : sore : : or not.  The strange thing is- the pain is worst when I first wake up : and : : get out of bed and start walking.  Yesterday was very short run (3 miles : : easy pace).  The pain the shin was sharp as I was walking to the start. : : Once I started running, it felt very slight- really just a dull, light : : painful feeling.  After the run, no more pain when walking. : : : : So~ stress fracture or something else? : : : : Could be "shin splints" (tendonitis). Doesn’t sound much like a stress : : fracture, a stress fracture should get worse as you run, whereas pain from : : soft tissue injuries attenuates as the run progresses. Your description of : : the pain — peaking in the morning upon arising, and generally fading : during : : the run is also the way soft tissue injuries (tendons) work. Surprisingly, : shin : : splints can involve sharp jolting pain. : : : : Here’s what I’d suggest: try taking a couple of days off, say 3 days or : so. See : : if you can run without pain after that. I had a problem with shin splints : once : : and the problem was out the way in less than a week because I took the : bitter : : bill of downtime early. : : : : Once you return to training, you will need to take a good hard look at : your : : program and work out what caused the problem. Running too fast or too much : : speed work, and too-much-too-soon are leading causes of shin splints. : : : : Cheers, : : — : : Donovan Rebbechi : : http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ : :

Response:

t’s the biking I’ve been neglecting.  Just getting back into it and it’s killing my Achilles Tendonitis.  Oh well- always something!

If biking is hurting your achilles tendon(s), in all likelihood you need to makes some bike adjustments:  e.g., seat up or down, seat forward or backward, feet clipped/cleated onto your pedals either more or less forward.  Even your handlebars and your stem settings can affect your pedaling position if you are over- or under-hunched.  Of course, no amount of adjustments can compensate sufficiently if you are riding the wrong size frame, however.  I would experiment until you have a painless pedaling cycle that also feels efficient.

Response:

<snip …  pain from soft tissue injuries attenuates as the run progresses.

Why exactly is this, Donovan? Is it because you warm up and tissue loosens up, or is it more a function of endorphins masking the pain? —

Question:

The simple solution: wait for the wind to come up and drive the temperature to +30F – 1st time running since Thanksgiving without a face mask Woof. It dropped to about 60F here and I was at a loss as to how to handle it – first time I’ve run with long sleeves.

Heh. I ran my PR (timewise) long run today (100 minutes) and I couldn’t drink my water after 30 minutes because the water in my two containers froze ) A side note: I was so stuffed from last nights Christmas dinner that I was definately LOADED. I felt like I could go for another hour of running after running for 100 minutes. Luckily I realized that it is wise to stop when you are ahead (like in poker) and the 10% limit for making LSD longer had already been broken. A final note: There was about 5-10 cm (2-4 inches) of new snow on the roads and road maintenance personel were still enjoying the holidays ( Regardless of poor footing I felt great, and the easy last week (only 3 runs for just 10 miles) paid off: Greeeaaat run. Jarno

Response:

The simple solution: wait for the wind to come up and drive the temperature to +30F – 1st time running since Thanksgiving without a face mask Geez, I have a lot to learn about cold weather hydration (to name one of many topics).

like your running depends on it Actually some of the insulation issues work both for hot and cold.  Here’s an off the wall thought, how about one of those lightweight handwarmers duct taped to the bottle <G. It’s gotta be duct tape.

Actually, that’s exactly what I was thinking about for my next long run in near-0 temperatures. Those chemical handwarmers I used on the tri worked great, and I’ve got a reusable one that may or may not work in this situation. That’s easier than me adding some more insulation, which would be a better long term solution. Whoa, ultras are far enough beyond my understanding (but not my appreciation) and now you’re throwing in ice ultras.

Actually, I stumbled across them because they had the best advice for cold weather gear / techniques. Trust me, I have no intention of running or biking or skiing 1000+ miles from Knik (southcentral Alaska) to Nome (west coast). But I’ll willingly learn from them. It seems that boiling water would be difficult to tell when it was cool enough to drink – or does it cool off REALLY quickly?

If you put it in an insulated cup (especially those with the covers), there’s a very good chance you’ll burn mouth, tongue, etc. But in a water bottle or hydration pack (unless insulated), it would probably be cool enough to drink before you can get your gear packed up and on the trail. Work really gets in the way of a good hobby, doesn’t it?  yes!

If you run in July, is there a problem with insects (there definitely is here)?

Our mosquitos are fairly slow, and I think even I can outrun them. Working in them is another issue. Dot

Response:

The simple solution: wait for the wind to come up and drive the temperature to +30F – 1st time running since Thanksgiving without a face mask

Woof. It dropped to about 60F here and I was at a loss as to how to handle it – first time I’ve run with long sleeves. Geez, I have a lot to learn about cold weather hydration (to name one of many topics). like your running depends on it Actually some of the insulation issues work both for hot and cold.

Good point but it’s still interesting. I found that tepid liquids were a lot easier for me to handle in the heat than cold or even cool liquids. Whoa, ultras are far enough beyond my understanding (but not my appreciation) and now you’re throwing in ice ultras. Actually, I stumbled across them because they had the best advice for cold weather gear / techniques. Trust me, I have no intention of running or biking or skiing 1000+ miles from Knik (southcentral Alaska) to Nome (west coast). But I’ll willingly learn from them.

Sounds like a good policy. One of the things I really like about this group is that people who have actually done it are giving the advice. In computing (for example), most of the advice comes from people who don’t have a clue how to do it let alone have done it. I love this group! If you run in July, is there a problem with insects (there definitely is here)? Our mosquitos are fairly slow, and I think even I can outrun them. Working in them is another issue.

Ours seem to use very small cellular phones to alert the others in front of me. We’re due for a freeze (!) next week so that should calm the little buggers down. Layne Layne

Response:

Wow. That’s amazing what you have to go through to get some fluid for a little (?) run. Actually, when all else fails, I can unscrew the top, stop, and drink the slushie, being careful not to get the threads wet so that they do not freeze. Been there, done that skiing. The real problem is the slush getting jammed in the nozzle, although I suspect given enough time, the stuff may freeze solid like water, but maybe not.

Drinking out of the bottle sounds like a very good solution – given the options. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m sure that you’ve already tried it but would one of those Camelbak thingies not work? Actually, the problem is magnified with the hydration packs because of the long hose from the pack to the mouth, and there’s still a nozzle of sorts to deal with. Both CamelBak and Ultimate Directions make winterized versions. The CamelBak has fairly thin insulation, but the UD insulation looks like something off my water pipes – they take their winterization seriously. A month or so ago when I was debating about bottles vs hydration packs, I decided to go with the bottles for the short term until I got a better feeling for what I was doing, how they rode, how much fluid I needed, etc. Besides there were so many more styles of hydration packs, that I was just overwhelmed and took the KISS approach of bottles. But I am finding I drink more fluids in cold weather (<10F) than warm (40-60F) (hot starts at 70F around here so may find the packs work better for me, but I’m still experimenting. I know my trails don’t have aid stations or water fountains along them, and I have a hunch that a lot of the races don’t either unless they are airdropped.

Geez, I have a lot to learn about cold weather hydration (to name one of many topics). I hadn’t thought about the hose freezing. Are you sure it’s safe to be running there? Now that you mention it, most of the people I know who use Camelbaks are living in warm weather areas. Here’s an off the wall thought, how about one of those lightweight handwarmers duct taped to the bottle <G. It’s gotta be duct tape. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -From what I’ve read of some of the winter ultra races up here (they’ve got good web pages on cold weather techniques), it sounds like people may fill their hydration packs with hot (boiling?) water, put it on their backs, and then sometimes have trouble with leaks or spills – as in 3rd degree burns on their back. For what I’m doing, I wouldn’t use water that hot – tap water hot should do – and it would be in bottls. I’m thinking there is more to the story than what was in that report or it could have been a beginners’ error (don’t think most people would repeat that). In the course of getting some equipment, I’ve bumped into a couple winter ultra runners / extreme cyclists as sales people in some of the stores. The next time I bump into one, I may pursue the issue of hydration packs. I think more people up here may use the hydration packs than bottles in winter, because they are probably skiing. Running’s (and walking or snowshoeing if you do it without poles) the only sport I can think of that has your hand’s free to eat and drink.

Whoa, ultras are far enough beyond my understanding (but not my appreciation) and now you’re throwing in ice ultras. It seems that boiling water would be difficult to tell when it was cool enough to drink – or does it cool off REALLY quickly? Hands free is nice but one of my projects right now is arm and hand position. This makes them un-free until I get comfortable with the different positions. With all the cold weather sports, it seems odd that some enterprising person hasn’t developed a nonfreezing drink. Could be money there. Actually, I’ve been wondering about freezing GUs and using them like popsicles . I tried one (unfrozen) before my last run, and it didn’t past the test to be taken on a run – didn’t like the texture. But I still have another one to use.

Good thought. GUsicles. Wouldn’t something frozen require more water, though? July? Yea, my field season starts in May (snow is sometimes still on ground near one area), but is patchy and unpredictable then based on weather, June will probably be busy, August is packed wall to wall, but July may not be as busy this year as it has been so I might get a chance to run a little. I’m hoping I can get something in the middle of summer so I don’t have to start all over again like I did this fall.

Work really gets in the way of a good hobby, doesn’t it? If you run in July, is there a problem with insects (there definitely is here)? That’s a nice problem (too many trails). Shucks, I haven’t gotten to the real trails yet – this is just what I’m accessing off the road system from my house within 3 km This other trail / dirt road system that I want to work on is about 6 km from my house, but I’ll probably drive to the other end (7 mi drive) and access it from the university’s farm roads – it’s not a ski trail there so I can snow shoe or run without getting anybody bent out of shape, no mushers, no snow machiners This is why I got the snow shoes – I couldn’t wait til spring to get out there And the university is closed between Christmas and New Year to save heating costs so I can run / snowshoe / ski during the day!

That sounds like a great area for running – no auto drivers turning in front of you (maybe snowmobilers before you get to the protected area?), no dog poop to avoid (maybe bear?), and no stop signs (fallen trees?). I am curious as to how running in the snowshoes works out. And I better get back to these reports due by end of year

Bummer. Now, I suppose that I have to do the same. I’ve even oiled the oak cabinets and started another orchid shelf to keep from doing what I’m supposed to be doing. Layne

Response:

 Actually, the problem is magnified with the hydration packs because of the long hose from the pack to the mouth, and there’s still a nozzle of sorts to deal with.

But if you blow the fluid back into the pack when you’re done, it won’t freeze in the tube. But I’m not sure about the nozzle letting slush through.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Dot. Isn’t it odd what we find as rewards (and not a little scary). Amen to that! Santa’s (aka me) bringing me running snowshoes since I didn’t wimp out of the triathlon. I decided we had enough snow on the ground and the weather’s been cold enough (and we’re just now entering the cold time of year , that it was going to be worthwhile getting them. I also found myself examining the nozzles on water bottles, trying to figure out the weak point for getting gatorade slushie to come out. The different designs were actually somewhat interesting. I now know that my better-insulated single bottle holder underneath fleece jacket will keep gatorade liquid at 0F for 1.5 hrs; my less-insulated double bottle holder underneath gore-tex jacket will start to freeze in about 1 hr at -8F. Debating about which combination to try next, or conducting freezing temperature study on sports drinks Or starting with hot sports drinks – I’ve been using room temperature. I think I’m going to add some top insulation to the 2 bottle holder. Running used to be so simple when I just used to run my little 5k route but I wouldn’t trade the present fun for then for anything

Wow. That’s amazing what you have to go through to get some fluid for a little (?) run. I’m sure that you’ve already tried it but would one of those Camelbak thingies not work? I suppose that a little alcohol mixed in would be counterproductive (and dangerous, now that I think about it). With all the cold weather sports, it seems odd that some enterprising person hasn’t developed a nonfreezing drink. Could be money there. It’s nice that Santa knows you’ve been good and deserve those snowshoes. I suppose that I could send you my stocking contents for your stove. Bummer about the high school track. yea, I might have a couple days in July this year where I  might be able to do something. I’m just curious what the surface is like (high school and college days were pre-equal opportunity so we didn’t have access to track – just laps around hockey or softball fields or basketball courts – ugh). I’d also like to find where their cross-country trail goes – I started on it, then got distracted and ran off on another path and never got back to it. Too many places to explore while running!

July? That’s a nice problem (too many trails). In northern Arkansas, the females got lots of practice running at family gatherings (sorry, old stereotypical joke). Speaking of botany <G, on a run last week I saw a neighbor cutting down an old oak tree that was slowly falling on his house. The tree was covered in Green Fly orchids. Naturally, I went back and gathered up several armloads of them (after the run). Several have already put out spikes (they normally spike in the Spring and Summer). If you ever run across any of those Alaska orchids, please let me know. I’ll be sure to do that. However, if their habitat is oak trees, we’ll need a major climatic change. I think we have 6 species of trees (3 needleleaf, 3 broadleaf) in mainland (not including SE) Alaska – none of them oak. Also the concept of "armloads of orchids" is seeming rather foreign at the moment We do have lots of pretty flowers, but more in the subalpine and alpine meadows.

I’ve heard good things about the scenery up there. I believe that your orchids are terrestrial ladyslipper types. We have their cousins down here and I have a few paphs that are blooming now. Orchids are almost as addicting as running. Layne

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Wow. That’s amazing what you have to go through to get some fluid for a little (?) run.

Actually, when all else fails, I can unscrew the top, stop, and drink the slushie, being careful not to get the threads wet so that they do not freeze. Been there, done that skiing. The real problem is the slush getting jammed in the nozzle, although I suspect given enough time, the stuff may freeze solid like water, but maybe not. I’m sure that you’ve already tried it but would one of those Camelbak thingies not work?

Actually, the problem is magnified with the hydration packs because of the long hose from the pack to the mouth, and there’s still a nozzle of sorts to deal with. Both CamelBak and Ultimate Directions make winterized versions. The CamelBak has fairly thin insulation, but the UD insulation looks like something off my water pipes – they take their winterization seriously. A month or so ago when I was debating about bottles vs hydration packs, I decided to go with the bottles for the short term until I got a better feeling for what I was doing, how they rode, how much fluid I needed, etc. Besides there were so many more styles of hydration packs, that I was just overwhelmed and took the KISS approach of bottles. But I am finding I drink more fluids in cold weather (<10F) than warm (40-60F) (hot starts at 70F around here so may find the packs work better for me, but I’m still experimenting. I know my trails don’t have aid stations or water fountains along them, and I have a hunch that a lot of the races don’t either unless they are airdropped. From what I’ve read of some of the winter ultra races up here (they’ve got good web pages on cold weather techniques), it sounds like people may fill their hydration packs with hot (boiling?) water, put it on their backs, and then sometimes have trouble with leaks or spills – as in 3rd degree burns on their back. For what I’m doing, I wouldn’t use water that hot – tap water hot should do – and it would be in bottls. I’m thinking there is more to the story than what was in that report or it could have been a beginners’ error (don’t think most people would repeat that). In the course of getting some equipment, I’ve bumped into a couple winter ultra runners / extreme cyclists as sales people in some of the stores. The next time I bump into one, I may pursue the issue of hydration packs. I think more people up here may use the hydration packs than bottles in winter, because they are probably skiing. Running’s (and walking or snowshoeing if you do it without poles) the only sport I can think of that has your hand’s free to eat and drink. I suppose that a little alcohol mixed in would be counterproductive (and dangerous, now that I think about it).

yep, that would definitely be a problem, but I am wondering about increasing the strength of the drinks but don’t know what other effects that may have in terms of palatability and physiology (as in barf or not or getting right amounts of electrolytes).  With all the cold weather sports, it seems odd that some enterprising person hasn’t developed a nonfreezing drink. Could be money there.

Actually, I’ve been wondering about freezing GUs and using them like popsicles . I tried one (unfrozen) before my last run, and it didn’t past the test to be taken on a run – didn’t like the texture. But I still have another one to use. Bummer about the high school track. yea, I might have a couple days in July this year where I  might be able to do something. I’m just curious what the surface is like (high school and college days were pre-equal opportunity so we didn’t have access to track – just laps around hockey or softball fields or basketball courts – ugh). I’d also like to find where their cross-country trail goes – I started on it, then got distracted and ran off on another path and never got back to it. Too many places to explore while running! July?

Yea, my field season starts in May (snow is sometimes still on ground near one area), but is patchy and unpredictable then based on weather, June will probably be busy, August is packed wall to wall, but July may not be as busy this year as it has been so I might get a chance to run a little. I’m hoping I can get something in the middle of summer so I don’t have to start all over again like I did this fall. That’s a nice problem (too many trails).

Shucks, I haven’t gotten to the real trails yet – this is just what I’m accessing off the road system from my house within 3 km This other trail / dirt road system that I want to work on is about 6 km from my house, but I’ll probably drive to the other end (7 mi drive) and access it from the university’s farm roads – it’s not a ski trail there so I can snow shoe or run without getting anybody bent out of shape, no mushers, no snow machiners This is why I got the snow shoes – I couldn’t wait til spring to get out there And the university is closed between Christmas and New Year to save heating costs so I can run / snowshoe / ski during the day! And I better get back to these reports due by end of year Dot

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I raised the whole issue (not that I could clearly state what the issue is at this point,) because of a fear that some beginners may not understand it’s ok, even inevitable, to have an occasional bad run.

Occasional? I can say that as a beginner the majority of my runs were bad. I was out of shape, overweight, and it was all uphill. Only after about a month or two did I start having some good runs, since my breathing was much easier, the shin splints were gone, some weight came off, and I was more motivated then ever. That’s just me though, I’m sure many new runners are already in pretty good shape from other activities. Regards, Texarus

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OK, I wasn’t going to mention this but it seems to fit and the good feelings are still here so I thought I’d share. The times weren’t much but it was great! And, my muscles (lower quads and calves) are sore <VBG. Until this point, my knees always gave out before my muscles so I haven’t really gotten sore. This time, no knee problems at all (no big surprise at this distance). Now I feel like a runner – still a beginner but a runner.

Way to go, Layne! I’ve heard rumors about these things called "tracks" – not too long after the local high school’s is snow free, I’m gone most years Dot

Response:

Way to go, Layne! I’ve heard rumors about these things called "tracks" – not too long after the local high school’s is snow free, I’m gone most years Dot

Thanks, Dot. Isn’t it odd what we find as rewards (and not a little scary). Bummer about the high school track. It was different enough for me that I may have to modify my plan – don’t want to be a slave to uninformed planning, donchaknow. Speaking of botany <G, on a run last week I saw a neighbor cutting down an old oak tree that was slowly falling on his house. The tree was covered in Green Fly orchids. Naturally, I went back and gathered up several armloads of them (after the run). Several have already put out spikes (they normally spike in the Spring and Summer). If you ever run across any of those Alaska orchids, please let me know. Layne

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I would like to know if anyone in this newsgroup  has ever used the iFit feature (you know the synchronized music that  once hooked up at the treadmill it controls the speed/incline).  I am getting my treadmill delivered tomorrow, and I am  wondering if this type of motivational workout is worth the effort. Thanks in advance

Well has anyone ever used this feature?  12 threads later and we’re talking about personal records, sore muscles, etc, etc.  Maybe I’ll rephrase the question it in Italian:  "Ma e veramente necessario ripetere la domanda una seconda volta?".  Grazie e chiedo scusa per il disturbo.   Ciao

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Way to go, Layne! I’ve heard rumors about these things called "tracks" – not too long after the local high school’s is snow free, I’m gone most years Dot Thanks, Dot. Isn’t it odd what we find as rewards (and not a little scary).

Amen to that! Santa’s (aka me) bringing me running snowshoes since I didn’t wimp out of the triathlon. I decided we had enough snow on the ground and the weather’s been cold enough (and we’re just now entering the cold time of year , that it was going to be worthwhile getting them. I also found myself examining the nozzles on water bottles, trying to figure out the weak point for getting gatorade slushie to come out. The different designs were actually somewhat interesting. I now know that my better-insulated single bottle holder underneath fleece jacket will keep gatorade liquid at 0F for 1.5 hrs; my less-insulated double bottle holder underneath gore-tex jacket will start to freeze in about 1 hr at -8F. Debating about which combination to try next, or conducting freezing temperature study on sports drinks Or starting with hot sports drinks – I’ve been using room temperature. I think I’m going to add some top insulation to the 2 bottle holder. Running used to be so simple when I just used to run my little 5k route but I wouldn’t trade the present fun for then for anything Bummer about the high school track.

yea, I might have a couple days in July this year where I  might be able to do something. I’m just curious what the surface is like (high school and college days were pre-equal opportunity so we didn’t have access to track – just laps around hockey or softball fields or basketball courts – ugh). I’d also like to find where their cross-country trail goes – I started on it, then got distracted and ran off on another path and never got back to it. Too many places to explore while running! Speaking of botany <G, on a run last week I saw a neighbor cutting down an old oak tree that was slowly falling on his house. The tree was covered in Green Fly orchids. Naturally, I went back and gathered up several armloads of them (after the run). Several have already put out spikes (they normally spike in the Spring and Summer). If you ever run across any of those Alaska orchids, please let me know.

I’ll be sure to do that. However, if their habitat is oak trees, we’ll need a major climatic change. I think we have 6 species of trees (3 needleleaf, 3 broadleaf) in mainland (not including SE) Alaska – none of them oak. Also the concept of "armloads of orchids" is seeming rather foreign at the moment We do have lots of pretty flowers, but more in the subalpine and alpine meadows. Enjoy! Dot

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I raised the whole issue (not that I could clearly state what the issue is at this point,) because of a fear that some beginners may not understand it’s ok, even inevitable, to have an occasional bad run. If you watch too many fitness club commercials you begin to think every run must be surrounded in a soft, golden glow.

I understand what you mean only too well. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "Courage is fear holding on a minute longer"                                         Gen. George Patton http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

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Have you tried taking up another sport or activity that you enjoy enough to not need to purchase various items aimed to just compell you to actually do it? Oh come on! If you’ve never had a day when you had to drag your tired butt out the door, you’re unlike any runner I’ve ever met. We can all use a little motivation now and then.

Sure, I have days like that – and all I need for ‘motivation’ is the satisfaction of knowing I am going to run anyway. I swear to you that this is the truth, Terry. I’m not trying to be smug or whatever. I absolutely love running, which means I also enjoy the difficulty involved when I feel tired. If it wasn’t hard, I’d do something else. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "Courage is fear holding on a minute longer"                                         Gen. George Patton http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

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I absolutely love running, which means I also enjoy the difficulty involved when I feel tired. If it wasn’t hard, I’d do something else.

I agree.  The challenge of the sport – the thrill of achievement – the struggle to get your ass out of bed (or wherever) and onto the road – it’s all part of the allure.  I rather like the fact that half my runs start at 5am in -20C weather in the dark of winter – I don’t like the conditions, but I sure like the fact that I can do it.  Although David suggested he wasn’t being smug, sometimes I am just that on this very subject. Whether chasing 17 minute 5k’s like David, or 21 minute 5k’s like me, or 30 minute 5k’s like others, the fight for all of us is in the challenge and the thrill of doing it, and that’s what brings many of us back again.  I’ve said many times, if it weren’t for the incredible feeling of the last 200m of a marathon, a little VCR tape I run in my head over and over, I doubt I would run the distance.  Part of my passion is the quest to regain that thrill. — Lorne Sundby

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Sure, I have days like that – and all I need for ‘motivation’ is the satisfaction of knowing I am going to run anyway. I swear to you that this is the truth, Terry. I’m not trying to be smug or whatever. I absolutely love running, which means I also enjoy the difficulty involved when I feel tired. If it wasn’t hard, I’d do something else.

OK, I wasn’t going to mention this but it seems to fit and the good feelings are still here so I thought I’d share. This is a tubby boy beginner’s point of view. This morning, I went to the track for the first time in over 25 years. I’m not yet to the point in my "plan" of starting speed work (mid-January) but I had some time and knew no one but my wife and I would be on the track. We did a 1000 warm up and got ready for some unknown territory. We both know that 400s and 800s would have been better but we decided to go for 100s to start (she’s never done any track work at all). The first one was just under 16 and was pretty scary. The next 5 were between 15.1 and 16.5. We did 100s for recovery and finished off with another 1000. Susan didn’t keep her time and just tried out the experience. The times weren’t much but it was great! And, my muscles (lower quads and calves) are sore <VBG. Until this point, my knees always gave out before my muscles so I haven’t really gotten sore. This time, no knee problems at all (no big surprise at this distance). Now I feel like a runner – still a beginner but a runner. So, David, at this point, I hear ya. I’ll make a note to check in again after five years of running. Layne

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[...] I absolutely love running, which means I also enjoy the difficulty involved when I feel tired. If it wasn’t hard, I’d do something else.

I have many runs where it’s hard to get started, but I know that I’ll be glad did after a mile or so. Nine times out of ten, that is. On the tenth time I’d do better to pack it in.  I’m sure we agree that there are occasional bad runs – they start bad, … and finish bad. Over the longer range, the running lifestyle does require a certain amount of discipline. If you can’t commit yourself to the level of completing the occasional uninspiring run, you probably can’t achieve the fitness needed to have the really memorable ones. (I’m sure you know the kind.) I raised the whole issue (not that I could clearly state what the issue is at this point,) because of a fear that some beginners may not understand it’s ok, even inevitable, to have an occasional bad run. If you watch too many fitness club commercials you begin to think every run must be surrounded in a soft, golden glow. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, Ont)

Same, Terry (in, brrrrr…. Syracuse, NY, where it took a certain amount of discipline to run today.) — Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

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That is a great attitude to have! Your enthusiasm can be quite infectious, and is an example to us all! I must admit, I often find it very hard to get out of the door, especially if it’s cold or wet (i.e. every day right now). But I’m always glad I did. Having a big race to aim for can be a great help. Oliver.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – " Sure, I have days like that – and all I need for ‘motivation’ is the satisfaction of knowing I am going to run anyway. I swear to you that this is the truth, Terry. I’m not trying to be smug or whatever. I absolutely love running, which means I also enjoy the difficulty involved when I feel tired. If it wasn’t hard, I’d do something else. cheers, — David (in Hamilton, Ont)

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I would like to know if anyone in this newsgroup  has ever used the iFit feature (you know the synchronized music that  once hooked up at the treadmill it controls the speed/incline).

What will they think of next?! I am getting my treadmill delivered tomorrow, and I am  wondering if this type of motivational workout is worth the effort.

Have you tried taking up another sport or activity that you enjoy enough to not need to purchase various items aimed to just compell you to actually do it? No offense meant! I just couldn’t imagine having to buy stuff like that to ‘entice’ myself to do a sport. I’d rather do a sport that I enjoyed more instead, in which I needed no ‘motivators’ other than the love of the sport itself. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "Courage is fear holding on a minute longer"                                         Gen. George Patton http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

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I would like to know if anyone in this newsgroup  has ever used the iFit feature (you know the synchronized music that  once hooked up at the treadmill it controls the speed/incline). What will they think of next?!

It’s an intriguing concept. Will it accept any recording as input or must the recording be prepared in some special way? I’d imagine the speed of the treadmill is controlled by the tempo, but what controls incline? Pitch?  It would be interesting to pop in a recording of Uno voce poco fa. Probably not survivable. I don’t plan to buy the treadmill, but I may change the way I record workouts in my log: 8×400 — prestissimo; LSD 20 miler — larghetto. In a way it makes sense to use such qualitative adjectives to describe an intrinsically subjective effort. I am getting my treadmill delivered tomorrow, and I am  wondering if this type of motivational workout is worth the effort. Have you tried taking up another sport or activity that you enjoy enough to not need to purchase various items aimed to just compell you to actually do it?

Oh come on! If you’ve never had a day when you had to drag your tired butt out the door, you’re unlike any runner I’ve ever met. We can all use a little motivation now and then. No offense meant! I just couldn’t imagine having to buy stuff like that to ‘entice’ myself to do a sport. I’d rather do a sport that I enjoyed more instead, in which I needed no ‘motivators’ other than the love of the sport itself.

– Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

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I would like to know if anyone in this newsgroup  has ever used the iFit feature (you know the synchronized music that  once hooked up at the treadmill it controls the speed/incline).  I am getting my treadmill delivered tomorrow, and I am  wondering if this type of motivational workout is worth the effort. Thanks in advance

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Question:

What an expirience.. I’m doing an easy run and everything seems calm and nice but suddenly it starts to rain REALLY heavily. Instead of seeking shelter I decide to turn back knowing that it takes about 15 mins to get back to home. I decide to speed up because the thunder shows up, my shirt gets really wet and I have to take it off. I’m running fast and without a shirt in order to avoid feeling too cold. Those few people who are on the streets are staring at me like I was crazy. Is that what it feels to be a professional runner? *laugh* —

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What an expirience.. I’m doing an easy run and everything seems calm and nice but suddenly it starts to rain REALLY heavily. Instead of seeking shelter I decide to turn back knowing that it takes about 15 mins to get back to home. I decide to speed up because the thunder shows up, my shirt gets really wet and I have to take it off. I’m running fast and without a shirt in order to avoid feeling too cold. Those few people who are on the streets are staring at me like I was crazy. Is that what it feels to be a professional runner? *laugh*

When I was on my high school cross-country team, one of the most memorable workouts we had was in the pouring rain.  The coach had told us to run a specific 13-mile loop (along paved roads), but we had decided to do a shorter, slower, off-road version instead. We had a great time, and returned to school completely muddy and soaked.  I think the coach was impressed that we ran the whole loop in a decent time and were still in good spirits. Little did he know… -Robb — Delete "spamfilter." to reply.

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When I was on my high school cross-country team, one of the most memorable workouts we had was in the pouring rain.  The coach had told us to run a specific 13-mile loop (along paved roads), but we had decided to do a shorter, slower, off-road version instead. We had a great time, and returned to school completely muddy and soaked.

     That reminds me of a triathlon that I did in the rain.  The swim part was no problem, but the 10K run was mostly on dirt roads that were no longer dirt. I remember that my shoes got heavier and heavier, and I actually found myself trying to avoid some of the larger puddles, which I eventually realized was ridiculous.  There were actually some volunteers on the course passing out water, if one so desired.  It was an experience, and, yes, it was fun too.                                     Jean S.

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I’ve run in rain, snow, heat, cold, wind — everything except ice — ice will cause you to slip. — Regards, Joe Schlatter http://www.schlatter.org/ http://www.miafacts.org/ Amateur Radio Extra Class call sign W4HH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What an expirience.. I’m doing an easy run and everything seems calm and nice but suddenly it starts to rain REALLY heavily. Instead of seeking shelter I decide to turn back knowing that it takes about 15 mins to get back to home. I decide to speed up because the thunder shows up, my shirt gets really wet and I have to take it off. I’m running fast and without a shirt in order to avoid feeling too cold. Those few people who are on the streets are staring at me like I was crazy. Is that what it feels to be a professional runner? *laugh* —

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:What an expirience.. I’m doing an easy run and everything seems calm and :nice but suddenly it starts to rain REALLY heavily. Instead of seeking :shelter I decide to turn back knowing that it takes about 15 mins to get :back to home. I decide to speed up because the thunder shows up, my shirt :gets really wet and I have to take it off. I’m running fast and without a :shirt in order to avoid feeling too cold. Those few people who are on the :streets are staring at me like I was crazy. Is that what it feels to be a :professional runner? *laugh* : When I was on my high school cross-country team, one of the most memorable : workouts we had was in the pouring rain.  The coach had told us to run a : specific 13-mile loop (along paved roads), but we had decided to do a : shorter, slower, off-road version instead. We had a great time, and returned : to school completely muddy and soaked.  I think the coach was impressed that : we ran the whole loop in a decent time and were still in good spirits. : Little did he know…         Likewise, during one of our high school CC offseasons, me and three buddies decided to do a section (rural Minnesota, a section is 4 miles) in the teeth of a growing blizzard.  The first mile into the wind blew chunks, but once we turned the first corner it was pretty cool.  I wouldn’t do it again, but it was sure entertaining.                                                 -jeremy

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I run in the rain quite a bit.  I find it makes for a nice run.  A little water has never hurt me, so as long as I don’t get struck by lightning I guess I wont worry about it.  Lately it has been stormy every evening and there are two things I hate worse than getting soaked…. not running and getting up early in  the morning to run.  So, I am left with no choice.  I guess shirtless running in the rain would add even another level of entertainment. Ryan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What an expirience.. I’m doing an easy run and everything seems calm and nice but suddenly it starts to rain REALLY heavily. Instead of seeking shelter I decide to turn back knowing that it takes about 15 mins to get back to home. I decide to speed up because the thunder shows up, my shirt gets really wet and I have to take it off. I’m running fast and without a shirt in order to avoid feeling too cold. Those few people who are on the streets are staring at me like I was crazy. Is that what it feels to be a professional runner? *laugh* —

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I love when it rains on my way back- it’s so refreshing! Geneva – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What an expirience.. I’m doing an easy run and everything seems calm and nice but suddenly it starts to rain REALLY heavily. Instead of seeking shelter I decide to turn back knowing that it takes about 15 mins to get back to home. I decide to speed up because the thunder shows up, my shirt gets really wet and I have to take it off. I’m running fast and without a shirt in order to avoid feeling too cold. Those few people who are on the streets are staring at me like I was crazy. Is that what it feels to be a professional runner? *laugh* —

Before you buy.

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Question:

In Dutch, but anybody should be able to guess the gist of this calendar. So, are there any races in Canada, the U.S. and Mexico this year? Thijs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – does anyone know where i can get some info. on road races in Europe in the summer, from march to June?  Would appreciate any info. you guys can give me.

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does anyone know where i can get some info. on road races in Europe in the summer, from march to June?  Would appreciate any info. you guys can give me. john vancouver, B.C.

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does anyone know where i can get some info. on road races in Europe in the summer, from march to June?  Would appreciate any info. you guys can give me. john vancouver, B.C.

Check the Run the Planet web site at: http://www.runtheplanet.com. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

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here are some of my favorite sites: www.lauftreff.de            (Germany) www.laufsport.co.at/    (Austria) www.freeweb.org/freeweb/MARATONA/  (Italy) www.bnet.at/ptiming/index.htm  (Austria) bye Geri

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Question:

The original "Escape from Alcatraz" triathlon was put on for 15 years by an outfit called Envirosports.  They actually "inherited" it, as I understand, from San Francisco’s Dophin Club.

Actually, the Dolphin and South End rowing club still have an annual escape triathlon. No wet suits and the run is the double dipsea in Mill Valley. The guy who runs Envirosports is a member of South End. You have to be a member of the club though to do it.

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I am confused, I know there was some problem a few years ago w/ ownership of the "escape from alcatraz" tri. Which one starts at the island? I’m interested in this for the difficult swim. Whats the scoop? OK, looks like it’s time once again for my semi-annual "Why are there two Alcatraz tris?" explanation.

History aside, here are some dots to consider … how you connect ‘em is up to you:  . Envirosports always starts from the rock — they pick the right    day for the tide.  . GGP only starts from the rock when the tide is right for the day    they decide to pick.  . Envirosports races are really clean.  Literally no litter.  I was    appalled at the litter in the single GGP race I did. –  . GGP has lots of professionals.  I spent about 15 minutes chatting    with Michellie Jones while in the line to the head on the ferry.  . Envirosports has Dave Horning and his dog.  Both do the swim    without a wetsuit and are not shy about telling 500 neoprene clad    triathletes just what kind of pansies they really are.  He does    this with a megaphone every year at the pre-race briefing.  . GGP is rather unorganized.  Poor packet pickup and some folks    didn’t get their swim bag after the race until quite late — they    transport your swim stuff from Aquatic park to the bike    transition for you (it’s a swim-run-bike-run race).  . Envirosports swim is safer.  A boatnik got by the swim-pack herders    during the GGP swim.  Fortunately, he saw me and stopped before I    became "Tri-Chum" (the hors d’oeuvre of choice for discerning sharks).  . GGP had really nice post-race food.  Mmmm.  . Envirosports typically has *very* few volunteers.  Be sure to pack    your own food and water (and pack-out the empties). – Tim Iverson

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 . Envirosports has Dave Horning and his dog.  Both do the swim    without a wetsuit and are not shy about telling 500 neoprene clad    triathletes just what kind of pansies they really are.  He does    this with a megaphone every year at the pre-race briefing.

He wears a wet suit, the type you have to wear 24×7 until you start saying no to desert.

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Here is a posting from Tri-California’s Alcatraz Website. The Escape from Alcatraz Triathlon begins with a 8:00 am plunge from the

ferry into the icy cold water between the San Francisco Piers and Alcatraz Island. The currents, ebbs, and available dates make it difficult to determine the exact starting point.  Participants are unloaded from the boat in less than 6 minutes.   It is quite a rush when you take the leap, like a paratrooper from a plane.  A quick 200 yard swim to the start line is the warm-up for the 1.5 mile swim into the Marina Green Beach adjacent to the St. Francis Yacht Club.   Triathletes face the risks of strong currents, treacherous 55 degree waters and two ton sea lions. Wetsuits and hoods are strongly recommended. I did Envirosports last year and had a blast.  I’ll probably do both this year.  Specifically the Tri-California race just so I can experience the "glitz". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fred, All points well taken. Again, I am only going off what I understand to the answers to be from Tri-California. I honestly don’t know what is involved to get dates, etc or what it’s like to deal with city of San Francisco to do so. I still say that both races are fun (having done Tri Californias and hearing about Envirosports) and challenging. I agree with you on that fact that maybe they shouldn’t claim it goes from the island if it does not in fact start there. I did hear a lot of people complain last year about that, but again, I was content that we still had a very difficult swim. I say, pick the race that works for your schedule. If both do – cool.  Safe training! Dennis

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BTW, has anyone else gotten a tad fat this winter (this is the only group I know that might offer sympathy for the horror of an extra 4lbs .

Thanks for the laugh, but you are probably right about this newsgroup.  I do sympathize with you, since I ran my last marathon of the season I’ve put on almost 7 lbs, the horror!  (Thanksgiving didn’t help) Rusty Southwood CMRA#342 "If you never crash, you ain’t tryin’ hard enough!"

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I was thinking about doing this race, but a check of the tide hart, http://tbone.biol.sc.edu/tide, shows that the race will be run at almost max ebb tide; at 3 knots. This is almost identical to the tide at this year’s race that forced the swim to be along the shore, instead of from the Island. The Envirosports race seems to have planned a little better as their’s is at only about 1 knot of ebb tide. We’ll see how this affects the races. Mark Rinaldi Inland Inferno Triathlon Club http://members.aol.com/infernotri/home.htm

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BTW, has anyone else gotten a tad fat this winter (this is the only group I know that might offer sympathy for the horror of an extra 4lbs . – Tim Iverson

Just say that the extra 4 lbs is intentionally placed for proper body insulation during that chilly Alcatraz swim!  Yea you meant to do that. Mike Tri-PT

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Just a note on the tide situations with the Alcatraz races …… I spoke with Terry Davis about this a while back. I asked why they kept getting the dates situated on these "ebb" tides. His answer was logical – it was the only date available. Terry puts on other excellent races – Wildflower, Pacific Grove, the Tinley Mt. Bike races, not to mention Alcatraz. He has to make sure his races are scheduled at times that they will benefit the athletes in terms of scheduling. Perhaps you want to do WF Long course, but also want to do Alcatraz … well you wouldn’t want to be doing Alcatraz two weeks after WF would you, just to fit the tide schedule. Besides, Terry’s group needs time to regroup reorganize to ensure a successful race. The race was moved back a week this year, but unfortunately was still at a "non-preferred" tide time. However, Terry had no choice in this as the city dictates when he can hold the race (street closures, etc.) The weekend prior was open, but due to a road race the weekend before that, the city did not want the streets closed two weekends in a row. Terry assured that all facts and considerations would be taken into account to see that we got to swim as close to the island as possible – but keep in mind it’s SAFETY FIRST. Terry will not jeapordize anyone’s safety tides or no tides. Also, for those who did the race last year and were frustrated by the registration/packet pickup process (held at 24HR Fitness)… it will be moved to Marina Green this year. So PLENTY of room to get your stuff and not sit in a hot, stuffy room. Also, note that this years race is on Saturday instead of Sunday and that there will be spaces for almost 900 racers instead of 750. From the sounds of it, both races (Terry’s and Envirosports) offer great times had by all. I say, take the one that fits your schedule the best and personally I feel it’s irrelevant whether you are swimming directly from the Rock. You are still doing that swim, once you are in the water off the boat (in either case you start from the boat) it’s still "the" swim and very challenging. Dennis McMinn

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I am confused, I know there was some problem a few years ago w/ ownership of the "escape from alcatraz" tri. Which one starts at the island? I’m interested in this for the difficult swim. Whats the scoop? andy

Response:

I am confused, I know there was some problem a few years ago w/ ownership of the "escape from alcatraz" tri. Which one starts at the island? I’m interested in this for the difficult swim. Whats the scoop?

OK, looks like it’s time once again for my semi-annual "Why are there two Alcatraz tris?" explanation. The original "Escape from Alcatraz" triathlon was put on for 15 years by an outfit called Envirosports.  They actually "inherited" it, as I understand, from San Francisco’s Dophin Club.  OK, so through 1995, there was only ONE Escape from Alcatraz, and it was the one that all the pros did and that got on TV. In the early ’90s, Envirosports contracted with a local TV production company, Golden Gate Productions, to produce the television broadcast of the race. Apparently, after the 1995 race there was a falling out between GGP and Envirosports, and they ceased working together.  However, when GGP took off, they claimed that they now "owned" the title "Escape from Alcatraz." It seems that a local media bigwig with a lot of influence at GGP suddenly was taking a great interest in the race and wanted to start "engineering" it to fit the needs of the TV production, rather than the needs of the athletes. Envirosports is a small outfit and couldn’t really put up much of a legal battle to try to retain their right to the race title.  So GGP, with all the money and lawyers, made off with the Escape moniker, and blithely decided to put on their own race.   The trick here is that GGP knew NOTHING about putting on a triathlon. They just knew how to cover one for TV.  For the first three years of the new "Escape", they hired a different race director every time.  As a matter of fact, the folks who put on the ‘97 event for them swore never to deal with GGP again.  Among other stupidities, the new race owners went ahead and scheduled their event without bothering to check tide charts. They have done this consistently every year now.  I suspect that this is what has happened once again for ‘99—Terry Davis and TriCalifornia probably had absolutely no say in the race date; it was probably foisted upon them by the race owners. Another fiasco:  In the first year of the new "Escape", they announced a race date before they had even obtained permits from the City.  Oops!  So they had to scramble to get permits and find a later date.   Anyway, so now there are two Alcatraz tris.  The "Escape" has all the pros, the TV coverage, the glitz.  The Envirosports one has an actual swim from the Rock, and a slightly longer and harder run course. I agree with Fred Huxham that the Escape is a genuine rip-off, when the event organizers *know* that the racers won’t get to swim from the actual island, yet continue to advertise the race as "The Escape from Alcatraz". Fred’s right, the opportunity to do that swim is the big draw for this race, and when folks come from all over the country to Escape, only to find out that they’re just escaping from Pier 39, they’re right to be pissed.  It’s one thing to suddenly discover conditions on the day are unfavorable; it’s another thing entirely to know in advance that the advertised swim will be impossible, yet continue to trumpet the swim from the Rock. I don’t blame TriCalifornia, although I question their willingness to play along with these jokers. But whatever. As Dennis said, do whichever race fits into your schedule.  If you’re really set on doing the actual Alcatraz swim, though, plan on going with the Envirosports Alcatraz Tri. — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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I’ll be doing both Alcatraz races this year, the real one (from Envirosports, www.envirosports.com) and the fake one (from TriCalifornia). I think it is terrible that TriCalifornia has picked a bad date again this year.  Many people fly in from all over the world to do the race SPECIFICALLY to swim from Alcatraz.  That is the selling point of the race. The whole lore about it being an impossible swim, all the prisoners who tried were never seen again, etc.  Those people spend hundreds of dollars on their flight, hotel and race registration, and then find out they’re going for a bay swim that parallels the coast.  I bet the swim doesn’t get within a mile of Alcatraz. Envirosports seems to always manage to pick a date that enables a swim from Alcatraz.  Whoever picks the dates for TriCalifornia should be fired.  There are plenty of days throughout the year which have decent tides. Perhaps TriCalifornia made an honest mistake last year.  This year, they have no excuse.  The opening page of their website for the race touts "A 1.5 mile swim from the infamous Alcatraz prison".  Dishonest.  They should be up front about it and admit that the race doesn’t have much to do with Alcatraz even though it is in the name of the race. As far as the swim being irrelevant, the two swims are totally different. I’ve swam from Alcatraz at least 10 times now.  I’ve also swum the span of the Golden Gate Bridge and the Tri-California Pier39 to Saint Francis Yacht club pseudo Alcatraz swim.  Swimming from the Rock is WAY more difficult, mostly because of navigation.  It is very difficult to spot off of anything when you’re in the middle of the bay, and the current might chage direction 3 or 4 times throughout the course of the race.  Swimming along the shore with the tide at your back is a piece of cake compared to a real Alcatraz swim. Both races are very well put on and have something to offer.  I race the TriCalifornia race to compare my times to some of the best triathletes in the world.  I race the Envirosports race to do the real thing. If TriCalifornia can’t pick a date that will enable a real Alcatraz swim, they should at least be honest and up front about it in their advertising so that people who ARE interested in swimming from Alcatraz can save their money.  The real honest thing to do would be to drop the Alcatraz name and call it the "San Francisco Pier 39 Triathlon" or something like that. Instead they hype the "Alcatraz" part, and when asked about why the swim doesn’t start there, they make excuses about it being the only date available, or its the City’s fault, or its too close to some other race, excuse, excuse, excuse, blah, blah, blah.  Envirosports manages to get a date picked with good tides and the City’s blessing for a field just as big year after year. Fred Huxham I am not connected with Envirosports or TriCalifornia. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a note on the tide situations with the Alcatraz races …… I spoke with Terry Davis about this a while back. I asked why they kept getting the dates situated on these "ebb" tides. His answer was logical – it was the only date available. Terry puts on other excellent races – Wildflower, Pacific Grove, the Tinley Mt. Bike races, not to mention Alcatraz. He has to make sure his races are scheduled at times that they will benefit the athletes in terms of scheduling. Perhaps you want to do WF Long course, but also want to do Alcatraz … well you wouldn’t want to be doing Alcatraz two weeks after WF would you, just to fit the tide schedule. Besides, Terry’s group needs time to regroup reorganize to ensure a successful race. The race was moved back a week this year, but unfortunately was still at a "non-preferred" tide time. However, Terry had no choice in this as the city dictates when he can hold the race (street closures, etc.) The weekend prior was open, but due to a road race the weekend before that, the city did not want the streets closed two weekends in a row. Terry assured that all facts and considerations would be taken into account to see that we got to swim as close to the island as possible – but keep in mind it’s SAFETY FIRST. Terry will not jeapordize anyone’s safety tides or no tides. Also, for those who did the race last year and were frustrated by the registration/packet pickup process (held at 24HR Fitness)… it will be moved to Marina Green this year. So PLENTY of room to get your stuff and not sit in a hot, stuffy room. Also, note that this years race is on Saturday instead of Sunday and that there will be spaces for almost 900 racers instead of 750. From the sounds of it, both races (Terry’s and Envirosports) offer great times had by all. I say, take the one that fits your schedule the best and personally I feel it’s irrelevant whether you are swimming directly from the Rock. You are still doing that swim, once you are in the water off the boat (in either case you start from the boat) it’s still "the" swim and very challenging. Dennis McMinn

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Fred, All points well taken. Again, I am only going off what I understand to the answers to be from Tri-California. I honestly don’t know what is involved to get dates, etc or what it’s like to deal with city of San Francisco to do so. I still say that both races are fun (having done Tri Californias and hearing about Envirosports) and challenging. I agree with you on that fact that maybe they shouldn’t claim it goes from the island if it does not in fact start there. I did hear a lot of people complain last year about that, but again, I was content that we still had a very difficult swim. I say, pick the race that works for your schedule. If both do – cool.  Safe training! Dennis

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Hi Dennis, I hope you didn’t think I was directing my post at you (it didn’t seem like you did from your reply). Last year at packet pickup for the tri-california alcatraz race I was wearing an alcatraz swim shirt.  Before things started, a number of people came up to me and asked me if I’d done the race before.  I told them "not this one in particular, but other swims, bi’s and tri’s from alcatraz". They then asked, "doesn’t the swim start at alcatraz?"  I said "sure it does, usually about 100 feet off shore".  They then pointed to a drawing posted on the wall and asked why it looked like the start was very far away from the island.  I said it was probably just a bad drawing.  Later during the orientation, we found out the drawing was indeed correct.  Those people were really bummed out and for some reason, it really bummed me out as well.  I don’t know why it is such a sore spot with me but it is (I’m usually really laid back about stuff).  I love racing, have a blast doing so and hope others do as well.  I guess it disappointed me that people had taken all the effort to travel to the city where I lived, and then ended up with less than they had hoped for. Anyway, I’m blabbing on.  Safe training to you too and have a great season… Fred Huxham – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fred, All points well taken. Again, I am only going off what I understand to the answers to be from Tri-California. I honestly don’t know what is involved to get dates, etc or what it’s like to deal with city of San Francisco to do so. I still say that both races are fun (having done Tri Californias and hearing about Envirosports) and challenging. I agree with you on that fact that maybe they shouldn’t claim it goes from the island if it does not in fact start there. I did hear a lot of people complain last year about that, but again, I was content that we still had a very difficult swim. I say, pick the race that works for your schedule. If both do – cool.  Safe training! Dennis

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I know it’s early…..but I got my race entry confirmed yesterday.Who else is doing this race?                                  G.Cook

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I’ll be there.  I did the other Alcatraz Tri, The Ultimate Escape, last year.  Had a total blast.  See my review at http://www.strayernet.com/triathlog/alcatraz.html. Ken Strayer Triathlog Multisports Resources http://www.strayernet.com/triathlog – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know it’s early…..but I got my race entry confirmed yesterday.Who else is doing this race?                                 G.Cook

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I know it’s early…..but I got my race entry confirmed yesterday.Who else is doing this race?                                 G.Cook

Real or phaux?  I’ll probably be doing the real one, depeding on where it fits in with the other races. BTW, has anyone else gotten a tad fat this winter (this is the only group I know that might offer sympathy for the horror of an extra 4lbs . – Tim Iverson

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Question:

We at DE SOTO SPORT are beginning to design our Summer 1999 line, yes 1999!  We would like your input regarding anything we currently make that you think we should change.  We also want to know if there is anything that you think we should make.  If you like, or if you dislike, something we make, tell us!   If there is something about our catalogs or anything else that you want us to know please tell us. Your comments and constructive criticism is what will make us a better company. Over the years, your input has made us the triathlon clothing company that we are!   We have received suggestions regarding design, colors, fabric and fit. While we cannot meet everyones needs we value your input.  We want to be your triathlon apparel company. We welcome your comments by email, snail mail, or fax.  We will accept anonymous comments or with your name on it.  If you submit something with your name on it, we will enter your name in a drawing to receive a Transition Pack filled with De Soto goodies.  Be sure to include your name, address, email address, and telephone number.  The drawing will be held at the end of June. Thanks a lot! Emilio De Soto II President Send your feedback to:

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Question:

Anybody have any good ideas on how to stay focused during a run?  While running I am not tired physically, nor am I aerobically taxed, yet I find myself stopping every three minutes or so.  This break usually lasts about 20 seconds and then I run again.  A training partner is not on option because of my odd hours.  I am training for a my  first triathlon and need to gain this focus.  This never happens to me on the bike, although I am usually physically and aerobically taxed I keep pedaling.  Any thoughts would be appreciated. L

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Anybody have any good ideas on how to stay focused during a run?  While running I am not tired physically, nor am I aerobically taxed, yet I find myself stopping every three minutes or so.  This break usually lasts about 20 seconds and then I run again.  A training partner is not on option because of my odd hours.  I am training for a my  first triathlon and need to gain this focus.  This never happens to me on the bike, although I am usually physically and aerobically taxed I keep pedaling.  Any thoughts would be appreciated. L

Um, how about trying this: don’t stop.                                         James

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Here is what I do. I think about the long term goal. Mine has been to think of my run as if I was at IMC or IMH running for the finish and I also critique everyone’s house. Cut the grass, paint the house, pick up the trash etc. But I believe looking at a long term goal and never give up. "Pain is Temporary,   Pride is Permanent" Manana Mark

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"Pain is Temporary, Pride is Permanent"

Just saw painted on the shoulder of the Boulder Peak Tri course yesterday: "Pain is temporary.  Glory is forever!"         Matt — Matthew Wingate                     http://spot.colorado.edu/~wingate

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"Pain is Temporary, Pride is Permanent" Just saw painted on the shoulder of the Boulder Peak Tri course yesterday: "Pain is temporary.  Glory is forever!"         Matt

That brings to mind a saying I used to hear some guys from the Marine Corp. say: "Pain is just weakness leaving your body." -Scott                                        http://www.midplains.net/~spev

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"Pain is Temporary, Pride is Permanent" Just saw painted on the shoulder of the Boulder Peak Tri course yesterday: "Pain is temporary.  Glory is forever!"

"Pain is temporary. Injuries last forever"

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Question:

Well, I finally did the intelligent thing and called Enviro Sports to get the news on the run course for this year’s Escape.  It is indeed a much easier run than in previous years, although still a challenging one. Basically, it’s from Chrissy Field out to Land’s End and back on the Coastal trails through GGNRA.  It’s about 70% on trails, so that 11.5 miles won’t be quite so tough on the legs.  Also, the very nice woman at ES to whom I spoke tells me that you can see/hear the ocean for just about the entire run, so it should be quite beautiful. Now if I can just convince myself that I *can* run 11.5 miles….. Tryin’ hard… Tricia "’Be a terrific innovation if you could get your mind to stretch a little further than the next wise crack." "Y’know, I tried that once, but it didn’t snap back into place." —Katharine Hepburn & Eve Arden in "Stage Door" (1937)    

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Now if I can just convince myself that I *can* run 11.5 miles…..

Tricia, I say GO FOR IT! I certainly cannot claim that I have run *every* mile of every triathlon that I’ve done & I would vouch that the majority of rst’ers have run/walked at least once in their tri careers. But be prepared for the significant downside of this tri – no Hooter’s wings avail at the post-race party. Best of luck & let us know how you do. – Eric Bruce

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Question:

| Todd Jensen writes:

| …With an elite designation, if you didn’t place in the elite wave, | you would be dropped back with the age-groups (for that race). …. | | Do you mean that if Scott Tinley places 4th overall in a race and misses | an award by 1 spot, that he is then declared the winner of the 35-39 age | group? I wouldn’t like that too much. I can see how a top age-grouper | might consistently place in the top 10, but always out of the money. That | person should be able to get some glory for winning their age group because | work, family, and other commitments might not allow them to progress further | in the elite category. | | Todd, can you explain further how the elite designation would work, how | people would bounce back and forth between elite and age-group? they should do it the way the English First Division Football (soccer) is handled. That is, at the end of each year the bottom of the elites would become lowly age-groupers for the next year – and the best age-groupers (presumably out of the most competitive groups, 20-35) would become elites the next year. Chris — Ontario Telepresence Project, 2670 Queensview Dr., Ottawa, ON, K2B 8K1, CANADA

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they should do it the way the English First Division Football (soccer) is handled. That is, at the end of each year the bottom of the elites would become lowly age-groupers for the next year – and the best age-groupers (presumably out of the most competitive groups, 20-35) would become elites the next year. Chris

This seems to make more sense.  I currently get stuck racing against some people who I know used to be pro but the still consistantly win the age group.  Now, I would like it if they would be forced to race as an Elite so they can’t clean up year after year in the age group.  Then as their performance wanes they can move back down.  I’m getting kinda tired of racing against Pros who just don’t want to be classified as such for whatever reason (legal, emotional, or they just want to win). John K.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I currently get stuck racing against some people who I know used to be pro but the still consistantly win the age group.  Now, I would like it if they would be forced to race as an Elite so they can’t clean up year after year in the age group.  Then as their performance wanes they can move back down.  I’m getting kinda tired of racing against Pros who just don’t want to be classified as such for whatever reason (legal, emotional, or they just want to win). Some "former pros" simply enjoy the sport. They are working regular jobs and aren’t racing for money anymore, but they  still want to keep in shape and continue to race. They don’t train any more than the average working-class triathlete. In fact, often much less. So, they are a bit more gifted than most and kick our ass, so what? Maybe we should use these guys and ladies as inspiration to improve instead of getting bent out of shape about it. Just because someone was a pro for a few years doesn’t mean they are a different species for life.

I always find it amazing how important it is for many people to place in their age-group.  If someone consistantly wins their age-group, many of the people behind the winner complain that person should be pro.   Sport is meant to be fun, and in the scheme of things, and being beat out for an award in your age-group shouldn’t be the end of the world.  Wake up and smell the coffee – just because you’re a triathlete and may race fast, doesn’t mean you have any more right to winning then the next person. Some interesting studies have shown that if given a choice between winning a race or not winning but having a personal best, most people would choose to win. Todd Jensen                                   o AT&T Bell Labs                  ___^o_    __o    <| Naperville, IL                      _ <_    _

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: P.S. A quick afterthought.  Have an elite qualification system:  if you : win your age-group 3x (irregardless of whether the race was sanctioned) : you qualify for the elite catagory.  It is the athlete’s decision to move : up.  Once elite if you fail to be in the top 10 for 3 or more races, then : you qualify to move down.  Again it is the athlete’s decision to move : down.  You can make only 1 move per season. I believe the current system requires a top-10 finish in at least 3 races having more than a certain number of finishers will qualify one for a pro license (plus $130-150 to Tri-Fed!).  Once a pro you are stuck for that year, which is probably the better way to go. Now, for these other comments.  I tried to refrain, but I can’t anymore.   I am a licensed pro that most will never see in a magazine, yet I probably make more money than 95% of the US pros.  I work a full-time job (as an attorney), and I race triathlons strictly for FUN.  Occasionally I win some money, but it rarely covers my racing expenses.  Sponsors sometimes help me out, but I’m hesistant to become too committed to a sponsor becuase I want to do certain races because I want to.  There are other pros like myself that have full-time jobs, and merely race for the fun of it.  While I’m usually competitive with all but the top pros, there are also times when some of the age-groupers beat me.  I do not understand the complaints of some that their top competitors should be forced into the professional division.  What a cop out!  How can once possibly want to win an award under those circumstances?  Most of the top age-groupers have jobs just like you.  Whatever happened to working hard to achieve your goals, rather than eliminating the competition?  The reason I decided to race pro was that I wanted the challenge of racing against the very best.  That doesn’t mean that others of similar ability should be forced to do the same.  That’s just like the complaints I’ve heard at smaller races that certain pros or elite amateurs shouldn’t be competing at such a small race.  Why not use your defeats as an impetus to improve your own abilities, rather thanmaking excuses that someone was too good for you to have to race against them?  Your main competitor is not the guy on the $4000 carbin fiber bike with the composite wheels a sponsor gave him.  Your main competitor is YOURSELF.  Remember your first race when your only goal was to convince your body that you could really finish?  That should never change, other than now you try to convince your body that it can go a little faster.  That doesn’t mean that beating your other competitors should not also be a goal, but you’ll never beat them until you convince your body that you can.  By the way, does some of the reasoning in this thread mean that when I give up racing as a pro I can no longer race triathlons?  

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Maybe some Cat pro-I, II, III, Masters system like USCF bike racing would be a solution? That is, if this is even a problem. JJ

NOOOOOO! Then we would all turn into jerks like road cyclists! The hierarchial system of bicycle racing is what makes THAT sport so nausiating, though I guess on that scale it’s the only practical way of handling it. I think its great that total novices like me are able to "compete" in the same events as the "pros / elite" etc. It’s a real boost for example on an out and back run to see the pros come in and go.. "Wow there goes so and so" (Though I must admit I am not to the point of recognizing anyone yet.) Triathlon is great because REAL people who have regular jobs do Ironman, whereas in cycling, ONLY the pros (not even "elite") do races such as Tour De France etc. Enjoy the sport while it is still on this smaller scale!!! As far as the classification / elite wave goes, why don’t they just have a first wave of pro/elite for anyone competing for prize money, sponsored or not. They could even have age group awards within that wave, and still give "prizes" like watches and helmets to the "age grouppers" in the following waves. Make the entry fee for the first wave be slightly higher for those competing for cash. Blah Blah Blah Quit whining and have FUN!

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<snip :What I really want to know is — Is a very talented nationally-ranked :age-grouper (like an Anne Curi, Debbie Hornsby, Maryellen Powers, Tim and :Tony DeBoom, Jeff Cuddeback or the those profiled in Triathlete etc., :racing as an amateur really a problem at all? : I don’t think it is a problem.  That’s why it should be the athlete’s own choice whether to race pro or not.  The only thing I would like to see different than today is that there would be some minimum (non-financial) qualifications to being catagorized as an pro/elite. Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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| | P.S. A quick afterthought.  Have an elite qualification system:  if you | win your age-group 3x (irregardless of whether the race was sanctioned) | you qualify for the elite catagory.  It is the athlete’s decision to move | up.  Once elite if you fail to be in the top 10 for 3 or more races, then | you qualify to move down.  Again it is the athlete’s decision to move | down.  You can make only 1 move per season. I think if they were to adopt the kind of thing we’ve been discussing, they’d probably only want to allow a ‘change of classification’ at one time during the year – for everyone all at once. In the off-season (for each country). Then it would be easier to organize the coming year – for everyone. The analogy I made earlier to the English First Division works, in this respect. Chris — Ontario Telepresence Project, 2670 Queensview Dr., Ottawa, ON, K2B 8K1, CANADA

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<post regarding not allowing high dollar pros into the olympics deleted :What do you do for a living? Whatever it is….how about every four years :you do it for free and I’ll sell a few hundred million dollars worth of :tickets and TV so people can watch you do it…AND I’ll keep all the :money. : : How much money did Lance Armstrong make by competing in Spain? (especially compared to ‘93 or ‘94).  How many swimmers share the wealth at the olympics? The facts you point out are sadly true, but really miss the (olympic/idealisit) spirit of the original argument.    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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Brug) writes: P.S. A quick afterthought.  Have an elite qualification system:  if you win your age-group 3x (irregardless of whether the race was sanctioned) you qualify for the elite catagory.  It is the athlete’s decision to move up.  Once elite if you fail to be in the top 10 for 3 or more races, then you qualify to move down.  Again it is the athlete’s decision to move down.  You can make only 1 move per season. I think this subject deserves some thought. And I agree with Pat on most of his points.

This looks like a reasonable solution to me.  I think Pat is on the right track.       What I really want to know is — Is a very talented nationally-ranked age-grouper (like an Anne Curi, Debbie Hornsby, Maryellen Powers, Tim and Tony DeBoom, Jeff Cuddeback or the those profiled in Triathlete etc., racing as an amateur really a problem at all? What if they are busy,involved with their studies and careers and don’t really feel like racing on the pro circuit. After all, they’d have to pay for plane fares and hotels (unless you’re in the  top 5 at ITU World Cup) to get to the big prize money races. Maybe they really can’t afford it.

No one said that they have to race the "pro" circut.  All that people are saying is that if there is an elite wave they should race in it.  JJ, I think you’re really getting confused with the Pro/Elite thing.  Just because they have achieved a high level of racing doesn’t mean they have to become "pro".  Just like running, there is an elite level that in a race with out prize money(even some with), the elites will include the top racers; pro or not. Pro is mearly a designation for legal(?) reasons. A Pro is an elite but an elite is not necessarily a pro. I think that the top age-groupers (all divisions) have attracted a lot of favorable publicity to age-group racing and have added another dimension in high-performance racing.

Agreed.       Maybe some Cat pro-I, II, III, Masters system like USCF bike racing would be a solution?  That is, if this is even a problem. JJ

I think Pat’s original solution at the top is probably the best. It still maintains the age-groups (which I think is a good thing) yet allows for a higher level of competition for the best athletes. I’ve raced elite at a race or two and had a blast.  I didn’t place very well (but not last), but I was having so much fun I didn’t care.  I think having something like an elite category is a great opportunity for a different kind of racing. John K.

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-Jensen,T.R.) writes:

: :I think that swimming has this issue handled pretty well. :Correct me if I’m wrong…The USS is the elite/Olympic arm of the sport :with its own swim meets and federation. : I am not absolutely sure where everything currently stands, but I was a USS (United States Swimming) head coach about 8 or 9 years ago and are AGE GROUP (7-18 yr old b&g) team was sanctioned directly by USS– which included state champs to beginners of all ages.  All (age-group) meets were also USS sanctioned.  I don’t believe at least at that time that the USS was only for elites/Olympics.  However, we were obviously separate from the US masters, who have there own separate events.  USS also has a senior (or open) division which is a part of age-group swimming which I described above and this is where the elites and collegiate (off-season) swimmers competed.    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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Brug) writes:

P.S. A quick afterthought.  Have an elite qualification system:  if you win your age-group 3x (irregardless of whether the race was sanctioned) you qualify for the elite catagory.  It is the athlete’s decision to move up.  Once elite if you fail to be in the top 10 for 3 or more races, then you qualify to move down.  Again it is the athlete’s decision to move down.  You can make only 1 move per season. I think this subject deserves some thought. And I agree with Pat on most of his points. What I really want to know is — Is a very talented nationally-ranked age-grouper (like an Anne Curi, Debbie Hornsby, Maryellen Powers, Tim and Tony DeBoom, Jeff Cuddeback or the those profiled in Triathlete etc., racing as an amateur really a problem at all? What if they are busy,involved with their studies and careers and don’t really feel like racing on the pro circuit. After all, they’d have to pay for plane fares and hotels (unless you’re in the  top 5 at ITU World Cup) to get to the big prize money races. Maybe they really can’t afford it. Plus, with all the rule changes and confusion, maybe they don’t want to get involved in ITU drafting races. Some have expressed this concern to me. I think that the top age-groupers (all divisions) have attracted a lot of favorable publicity to age-group racing and have added another dimension in high-performance racing. Maybe some Cat pro-I, II, III, Masters system like USCF bike racing would be a solution?  That is, if this is even a problem. JJ

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: Todd Jensen writes:

: I always find it amazing how important it is for many people to : place in their age-group.  If someone consistantly wins their age-group, : many of the people behind the winner complain that person should be pro.   : Sport is meant to be fun, and in the scheme of things, and being beat out : for an award in your age-group shouldn’t be the end of the world.  Wake up : and smell the coffee … : OK, good point, I’m waking up (it helps that I had coffee with me when I : read this). In 9 years of competing in multi-sport events, I’ve only had : one year, about 3 years ago, that I ever placed in any events. Prior to : that year, I never concerned myself with placing, just doing my best and : having fun. Since that one year, I’ve struggled with being a middle-of-the- : packer again. I still have fun at the race and am happy when I’ve done : my best, but I admit I get frustrated by not placing. Maybe that’s the : same frustration other people here on the Net have felt. Thanks for waking : me up! Now for another cup of coffee (the crummy office stuff this time)… IMO, the problem is that we want some way to judge our performance.  In running races, we each know what our goals are.  It may be 40′ in a 10K or 2:30 for a marathon.  Courses are each a little different, but the effects on our times are usually small and can be accounted for.   USCF-style 40K time trials are also pretty standard most of the time. Multisport events are different.  Every course is unique.  The distances and terrain for each leg vary from event to event.  Worse yet, the stated distances are often wrong.  It can even be meaningless to compare times for the same course if it’s windy one year and calm the next.  In the end, all we can do is compare our time to those of others in the same event. I agree that we should view these races as personal challanges.  However, it’s hard not to become obsessed with the competition when that’s how we’re judging our success. Dave LaPorte U. of Minn.

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: : I currently get stuck racing : against some people who I know used to be pro but the still : consistantly win the age group. <snip : Some "former pros" simply enjoy the sport. They are working regular jobs : and aren’t racing for money anymore… I have been intrigued by the discussion about the pros wanting the elite catagory and there have been many good suggestions about how to chose elites– at the WORLD level only. The major wrinkle that springs to mind is that there are elites on local, state, regional, national and world levels.  In NM, there are *local* races that have elite catagories, TriFed regional champsionships with elite catagories and of course there are the well known national & world-class races.  While the infamous *racerX* maybe elite at the regional level, but is not an elite at the world level.  He can dominate the region, win most of the regional prizes– but on a global scale he is an age-grouper.  The problem is for most local, regional and a lot of national races, the world class elites don’t come.  Note: a lot of these local – regional races are TriFed sanctioned which further muddles the issues. I hope no-one comes up with the bright idea of using the TriFed ranking system to pick the elites from the age-groupers.  Frankly, the system just doesn’t work very well.  Personally, I compete in the elite wave whenever one is available– it is just fun duking it out with the top regional athletes.  Also, I have never made it to the rankings because I never do enough *qualifying races* although this year my lowest elite placing was 5th and highest was 2nd. Until nearly every race is sanctioned or scored nationally some way, I think we’ll have to rely on the honor system for letting athletes *to elite or not elite*. P.S. A quick afterthought.  Have an elite qualification system:  if you win your age-group 3x (irregardless of whether the race was sanctioned) you qualify for the elite catagory.  It is the athlete’s decision to move up.  Once elite if you fail to be in the top 10 for 3 or more races, then you qualify to move down.  Again it is the athlete’s decision to move down.  You can make only 1 move per season.    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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(Chuck Higgins) writes:

 :Now, realistically, we could do something like tennis.  The pro players :who wish to compete in the Olympics must declare they will compete and :they must meet certain :monetary guidelines for the Olympic year.  I think the triathletes could :do something :similar.  But, by the year 2000 all this may be moot. Hey Chuck: What do you do for a living? Whatever it is….how about every four years you do it for free and I’ll sell a few hundred million dollars worth of tickets and TV so people can watch you do it…AND I’ll keep all the money. Food for thought… Scott Zagarino

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Todd Jensen writes: I always find it amazing how important it is for many people to place in their age-group.  If someone consistantly wins their age-group, many of the people behind the winner complain that person should be pro.   Sport is meant to be fun, and in the scheme of things, and being beat out for an award in your age-group shouldn’t be the end of the world.  Wake up and smell the coffee …

OK, good point, I’m waking up (it helps that I had coffee with me when I read this). In 9 years of competing in multi-sport events, I’ve only had one year, about 3 years ago, that I ever placed in any events. Prior to that year, I never concerned myself with placing, just doing my best and having fun. Since that one year, I’ve struggled with being a middle-of-the- packer again. I still have fun at the race and am happy when I’ve done my best, but I admit I get frustrated by not placing. Maybe that’s the same frustration other people here on the Net have felt. Thanks for waking me up! Now for another cup of coffee (the crummy office stuff this time)…                            _ <_         <               ___/o__    ( )/( )       /

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I currently get stuck racing against some people who I know used to be pro but the still consistantly win the age group.  Now, I would like it if they would be forced to race as an Elite so they can’t clean up year after year in the age group.  Then as their performance wanes they can move back down.  I’m getting kinda tired of racing against Pros who just don’t want to be classified as such for whatever reason (legal, emotional, or they just want to win). Some "former pros" simply enjoy the sport. They are working regular jobs and aren’t racing for money anymore, but they  still want to keep in shape and continue to race. They don’t train any more than the average working-class triathlete. In fact, often much less. So, they are a bit more gifted than most and kick our ass, so what? Maybe we should use these guys and ladies as inspiration to improve instead of getting bent out of shape about it. Just because someone was a pro for a few years doesn’t mean they are a different species for life. I always find it amazing how important it is for many people to place in their age-group.  If someone consistantly wins their age-group, many of the people behind the winner complain that person should be pro.   Sport is meant to be fun, and in the scheme of things, and being beat out for an award in your age-group shouldn’t be the end of the world.  Wake up and smell the coffee – just because you’re a triathlete and may race fast, doesn’t mean you have any more right to winning then the next person. Some interesting studies have shown that if given a choice between winning a race or not winning but having a personal best, most people would choose to win.

Whoa, wait a minute.  I actually like racing against these guys. It may not have sounded that way, but its actually nice to see how close I can get.  But I think these people can have just as much fun racing as an Elite.  I’ve raced as an Elite in a race or two and had more fun then racing as an age grouper.  I had a blast actually. I didn’t place very well but I didn’t come in last either.  I didn’t care how I placed because I was having so much fun.  That’s why I don’t understand it.  Why would the former pros not race as elite. It could just be me missing something.  I didn’t say that they should always race as a Pro.  But if they are performing consistantly they should move up.  Do you agree that if there is an elite wave and the top 3 in an age group are in the top 5 overall that something just doesn’t seem right?  Just for clarification, I like to place well but it’s not that big of a deal.  My performance flucuates quite a bit so my first priority is to have a good race.  In fact, even   if I think I had a good race (I know how fast I should go), I’m happy even if I don’t make it in the top 20 in my age group. My goal is to come across the finish line with a smile on my face for whatever reason. (I’ve gotten a flat in a race or two and I’m still smiling because even though I my have come in at 102nd place, I still think I performed well.). So there, John K.

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Here’s a topic I’m sure will raise some interesting discussion. What athletes do you see competing in 2000 (rather, what type)? Some Olympic sports, such as  swimming, hold to very strict amateurism. Others, like basketball and tennis, allow million dollar athletes to compete. What do you think will happen to triathlon? I.M.O., the spirit of the Games calls for amateur athletes to compete. I think  the protests to allow professionals to play are now largely uncalled for. T The idea behind allowing them in the first place was that the economic systems  of communist countries allowed them to breed "professional" athletes… chil children were raised and their costs of living paid for because they were athletes. I don’t know about this argument… consider the living/training conditions of a communist athlete and then compare them to those of Michael Jordan. Doesn’t seem to be a correlation. One’s making zillions, the other is being fed, clothed, and sheltered. Anyway, most communist systems have fallen,  so the whole arguement is even more moot. My one disclaimer is that I do agree with allowing a certain amount of money to be received as a "training stipend." Several sports allow this, because being at the Olympic level requires that the athlete quit work and do li nothing but train. When you have rent to pay, that can be expensive. This is also another possible arguement for letting pros participate, but the amount of money I’m talking about is usually just enough to get by (sometimes less). Just my $.02 worth. Acey Albert U. of Florida TriGators

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    Who says that Olympics have to be amateur?  They surely weren’t back in ancient Greece – an Olympic Champion was housed, fed and treated very, very well for the rest of his life ,not to mention getting statues of himself (sorry, they didn’t understand that women are great athletes as well) in the center of their hometown.  The reason that "amateur" came into the picture with the Olympics was in 1896 when the Modern Olympic era began.  I really don’t know too many "amateur" athletes who would not accept money to do what they do – i.e. professional.  By the way, what is the difference between a top amateur who is sponsored ( given, housing, paying for races-flyning,food, lodging, given products) and a professional?  I really don’t see one,except that the amateur doesn’t have a card that says he can take pro prize money.  Most professionals really have less than that – because it’s hard as sh*t to find a good sponsor.  Well, that’s what I think. Neal Henderson PSU Triathlon Club

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 I currently get stuck racing against some people who I know used to be pro but the still consistantly win the age group.  Now, I would like it if they would be forced to race as an Elite so they can’t clean up year after year in the age group.  Then as their performance wanes they can move back down.  I’m getting kinda tired of racing against Pros who just don’t want to be classified as such for whatever reason (legal, emotional, or they just want to win). Some "former pros" simply enjoy the sport. They are working regular jobs and aren’t racing for money anymore, but they  still want to keep in shape and continue to race. They don’t train any more than the average working-class triathlete. In fact, often much less.  So, they are a bit more gifted than most and kick our ass, so what? Maybe we should use these guys and ladies as inspiration to improve instead of getting bent out of shape about it. Just because someone was a pro for a few years doesn’t mean they are a different species for life. Emilio DeSoto is back as an agegrouper, so is Liz Bulman, Karen Chequer-Pfieffer and others. They aren’t trying to steal the limelight (what little there is of it) they’re just having fun. I say welcome back.

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(-Jensen,T.R.) writes:

I think that swimming has this issue handled pretty well. Correct me if I’m wrong…The USS is the elite/Olympic arm of the sport with its own swim meets and federation.  The US Masters, which includes most of us I suppose, is the federation for the swimmers that aren’t in NCAA or elite meets. US Masters has its own meets–local, regional, Nationals and even Worlds– and a magazine (Swim?) that deals primarily with masters racing and training. P.S. Have any of you checked out the chatter in rec.sport.swim? Pretty wild….lots of drug use and (anti-Chinese) racisim accusations…

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Hey,   Well, I must say, I’m truly psyched up about the 2000 Olympics and the triathlon that will be included.  I think it is time!   With regards to the amateur/pro status of athletes, let me just say that I’m a hardcore believer in the Olympics as an amateur competition only.  The Dream Team is crap!  Okay, I’ll get off the pulpit.   Now, realistically, we could do something like tennis.  The pro players who wish to compete in the Olympics must declare they will compete and they must meet certain monetary guidelines for the Olympic year.  I think the triathletes could do something similar.  But, by the year 2000 all this may be moot. Chuck Higgins

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(-Jensen,T.R.) writes: I think that swimming has this issue handled pretty well. Correct me if I’m wrong…The USS is the elite/Olympic arm of the sport with its own swim meets and federation. The US Masters, which includes most of us I suppose, is the federation for the swimmers that aren’t in NCAA or elite meets.

Well, this is mostly correct. I guess what you really mean is that USS is the elite arm of the sport for those over 18 years old. Since the USS also "governs" almost all age-group racing in the country. Wait, I guess that you could consider the USS the elite age-group system also. There are many many rec and summer swim leagues that have nothing to do with USS. (Until someone like Matt Biondi comes out of one and starts setting world records . Why isn’t there a similar program for age-group (ie under 10-18) triathletes? Maybe it’s too expensive to buy little Jonny a new bike every time he grows out of the old one… just FYI, myke morgan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -US Masters has its own meets–local, regional, Nationals and even Worlds– and a magazine (Swim?) that deals primarily with masters racing and training. P.S. Have any of you checked out the chatter in rec.sport.swim? Pretty wild….lots of drug use and (anti-Chinese) racisim accusations…

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[stuff about allowing only amateurs in the Olympics deleted]

The problem with allowing only "amateurs" in the Olympics is there is a very fuzzy line in most sports between pros and amateurs.   In triathlon, some amateurs make more than some pros and train/race almost full-time. Are they still to be considered "amateur"?  In many sports, the pros are so far ahead of the others, it’s no contest as to who I would rather see (e.g. basketball).  In other sports, there is no real pro division but mnay of the top amateurs make decent amounts of money (e.g. track and field, swimming).   I like the suggestion the pros from the US are voting on – they are trying to get rid of the pro designation and rename it elite.  The pros and top amateurs of today would be lumped together as the elite.  This is to help both the pros and top amateurs.  At some races an amateur may win overall, but because the pros went off first, no one knows (e.g. Wendy’s Triathlon 94). At other races, the people who could be placing in the pro wave hang back and stay amateur to clean up and get the publicity.  With an elite designation, if you didn’t place in the elite wave, your would be dropped back with the age-groups (for that race).  If you raced as an age-grouper, but did well, you may be invited to compete as an elite.  Kind of like a PROs/1/2 field in USCF racing. In my opinion, each country should get to send its best players (the elite). As long as the pros play by the same rules, the Olympics will remain a showcase for the best.  As far as arguments that amateurs no longer have something to train for (i.e. the Olympics), they can train to be the best in their sport and compete with the world’s best at the Olympics. Todd Jensen                                    o ILL650 1A-322                ___^o_    __o    <| (708) 979-1254                       _ <_    _

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When the Olympic triathlon trials rolls around in about 6 years, you can bet that amateur and professional alike will be eligible to compete, regardless of the professional’s income.  We want are best athletes to compete in the Olympics, regardless of amateur status, right? — HKS WEST, Inc.                                  Phone: (510) 794-5891 Suite 205                                       3900 Newpark Mall Road                   Newark, California 94560

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Todd Jensen writes: …With an elite designation, if you didn’t place in the elite wave, you would be dropped back with the age-groups (for that race). ….

Do you mean that if Scott Tinley places 4th overall in a race and misses an award by 1 spot, that he is then declared the winner of the 35-39 age group? I wouldn’t like that too much. I can see how a top age-grouper might consistently place in the top 10, but always out of the money. That person should be able to get some glory for winning their age group because work, family, and other commitments might not allow them to progress further in the elite category. Todd, can you explain further how the elite designation would work, how people would bounce back and forth between elite and age-group?                            _ <_         <               ___/o__    ( )/( )       /

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Question:

I sincerely apologize to this group for the inappropriate posting  yesterday. I was very excited about the shared information and errored in thinking all would welcome it. I do NOT sell the product.   rere is something I hope the group can use: .I am not an expert on these matters, but an old friend of mine has just sent me some very interesting information about what has been going on. He has been working down in Texas with a company that has just produced

I AM GETTING REALLY ANGRY WITH ALL THESE "NET POLICE"!!!!!! This posting was 100% ok! Would the people who feel it is their duty to flame any posting that just might have something to do with commercial ventures PLEASE STOP!?!?!? This posting never tried to sell anybody anything.  Even if it did the internet is open to this kind of thing.  Deal with it. If we, in rec.sport.triathlon, want to create a "bylaw" that discourages "posting for money" then we can do that.  Until then people are free to post what they want. —    LSC (aka Larry Chapman)    (303) 229-3117

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I sincerely apologize to this group for the inappropriate posting  yesterday. I was very excited about the shared information and errored in thinking all would welcome it. I do NOT sell the product.   rere is something I hope the group can use:

.I am not an expert on these matters, but an old friend of mine has just – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -sent me some very interesting information about what has been going on. He has been working down in Texas with a company that has just produced

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| | I AM GETTING REALLY ANGRY WITH ALL THESE "NET POLICE"!!!!!! | | This posting was 100% ok! | | Would the people who feel it is their duty to flame any posting that just | might have something to do with commercial ventures PLEASE STOP!?!?!? | | This posting never tried to sell anybody anything.  Even if it did the | internet is open to this kind of thing.  Deal with it. | | If we, in rec.sport.triathlon, want to create a "bylaw" that discourages | "posting for money" then we can do that.  Until then people are free to | post what they want. The original post, as well as the apology was posted to several groups. So it doesn’t necessarily follow that anyone who reads this group got on John’s case. — Ontario Telepresence Project, 2670 Queensview Dr., Ottawa, ON, K2B 8K1, CANADA

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