Question:

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I have been unsubscribed from SWIMMING? Wait – does this mean I merely need to ride and run now?  Or is this just some roundabout way of telling me that all your base are belong to us? Hurricane Bob * Still recovering from IMC…forgive me * – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have been successfully unsubscribed from the SWIMMING.

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  I have been unsubscribed from SWIMMING?   does this mean I merely need to ride and run now? lololol! best thing ever i read in this group! well maybe apart from some ‘Most unusual things to see at a triathlon’ stories … p!

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Question:

It is quite the dilemma isn’t it.  I would consider myself an intermediate to strong swimmer so the wetsuit does still help me.  To remain competitive I’ve worn wetsuits in situations where I wouldn’t if I was training. Overheating is my main concern when wearing a wetsuit in warmer water.  What I usually do, when racing, is go for comfort (cooler body temp) on swims a mile or under.  In these cases what I lose is minimal.  Now here’s what I think.  Drop the temp to 73 or 74 for the rules.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be doing a tri  this weekend where the water temp will be about 75 F(24 C). Most people will be wearing a wet suit even though at these temps there is no real justification for thermal protection. They are being worn strictly as a floatation device which gives the advantage to weaker swimmers such as myself. Unless there is an actual need for colder water I tend to think they should be banned, even though it is people such as myself who benefit most using a wet suit. That’s just my opinion. What do others think.

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I find it upsetting that guys who can do a 1/2 mile swim in around 10 minutes resort to using swimsuits even in water temps. well above 75 degrees.  My read is that the manufacturers of the wetsuits are behind allowing the elite to use rubber life rafts (at 75+ what else would you call them?)  to improve their times.  Same thing applies to bikes.  Should there be a category for bikes over $3000?  I’ve seen many races where the best athlete doesn’t win simply because their competitor is better equiped. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am fair on the swim for my age group 49 years old, around  21 minutes for 1500 meters but I still feel that wetsuit should be allowed at any temperture because of the safety factor. I have been in a triathlon back in 1987 when a young strong swimmer didn’t make it. As far as the cost it’s really small when you spread it over time, my last wetsuit lasted 10 years at $250. Our sport can be expenise but if you, a friend or love one has an accident this is pretty cheap.

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Same thing applies to bikes.  Should there be a category for bikes over $3000?  I’ve seen many races where the best athlete doesn’t win simply because their competitor is better equiped.

- hmnnn.. many races where this has taken place? I find this rather unlikely, unless of course you’re talking about a naturally gifted athlete who is new to the sport- but who’s fault is that? if they are that good, and interested in being very competitive- it is up to them to get on the level w/ their bike and wheels. unless we all want to ride roadmaster bikes ( not a bad idea) i don’t really see a solution- or problem, for that matter. I think the difference in technology in the ‘tri/ aero bike’ range is fairly minimal-

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You’ve probably hit on something here.  Barefoot run.  Speedo Lycra (waist cut).  Schwinn Green Hornet (is, was there such a thing?), Schwinn components, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find it upsetting that guys who can do a 1/2 mile swim in around 10 minutes resort to using swimsuits even in water temps. well above 75 degrees.  My read is that the manufacturers of the wetsuits are behind allowing the elite to use rubber life rafts (at 75+ what else would you call them?)  to improve their times.  Same thing applies to bikes.  Should there be a category for bikes over $3000?  I’ve seen many races where the best athlete doesn’t win simply because their competitor is better equiped. I am fair on the swim for my age group 49 years old, around  21 minutes for 1500 meters but I still feel that wetsuit should be allowed at any temperture because of the safety factor. I have been in a triathlon back in 1987 when a young strong swimmer didn’t make it. As far as the cost it’s really small when you spread it over time, my last wetsuit lasted 10 years at $250. Our sport can be expenise but if you, a friend or love one has an accident this is pretty cheap.

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I find it upsetting that guys who can do a 1/2 mile swim in around 10 minutes resort to using swimsuits even in water temps. well above 75 degrees.  My read is that the manufacturers of the wetsuits are behind allowing the elite to use rubber life rafts (at 75+ what else would you call them?)  to improve their times.  Same thing applies to bikes.  Should there be a category for bikes over $3000?  I’ve seen many races where the best athlete doesn’t win simply because their competitor is better equiped.

Difference: even the most expensive bike can’t make you effectively lighter. Mark M

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People use the wetsuits for the flotation aid. I did the first NYC Triathlon last weekend where water temperatures were around 75 F. EVERYBODY wore a wetsuit. The funny part was that the current was so fast that swim times were around 13 minutes (1500 mts). I think that was most the time lost on that race on getting out of the wetsuit at T1 than the minimal advantage on wearing it that day. One for us, the ones who think that wetsuit should be

Even at 400m, I gain enough time with the suit (~45 seconds) to make it worthwhile.  Even if it’s a draw, the gain in not getting cold is immense. — Rec.scuba strokes pics page: www.jor.com/strokes Aquashot page: www.jor.com/dive/aquashot

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Would have to disagree.  The work/energy you expend during the bike is directly proportional to the total weight of the bike plus the rider. So….a lighter (often times more expensive) bike does make you effectively lighter.  Seems to me it’s pretty analogous.  (And, BTW, lighter shoes help as well.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Difference: even the most expensive bike can’t make you effectively lighter. Mark M

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Would have to disagree.  The work/energy you expend during the bike is directly proportional to the total weight of the bike plus the rider. So….a lighter (often times more expensive) bike does make you effectively lighter.  Seems to me it’s pretty analogous.  (And, BTW, lighter shoes help as well.) Difference: even the most expensive bike can’t make you effectively lighter.

The operative word was YOU. Unless you’re crawling along, the work you do on the bike is pretty much dominated by losses to air resistance. On hills there’s a more significant effect, but the point stands. Mark M

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Drop the temp to 73 or 74 for the rules.

Actually isn’t this what the ITU rules are.  74 (24 deg C) for age groupers and 69 (20 deg C) for elite. AJ (Water temperature here never gets above 24 deg C anyway)

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Agree that wind resistance is important.  There is both parasitic drag (the drag caused by shapes not consistent with good airflow and acutally reduces with speed) and induced drag (caused by any "lifting surfaces" which increases with the square of speed.)  That said, weight counts!  Why else would we spend $$$ for titanium parts, OCLV frames, etc., etc., etc. And, also agree that the operative word is YOU.  Which is why Lance Armstrong climbs hills better now, post cancer recovery, that he weighs considerably less. And, back to the shoe analogy. Average runner strides per mile:    1500 Marathon length:                            26.2 miles Strides per marathon:                    39,300 Therefore, for each extra ounce of shoe weight you lift an additional 39,300 ounces or 2,456 lbs.  (or 1 1/4 tons as I like to think about it!) Bottom line is, weight counts in all the disciplines.  (Although, in swimming I’d argue that the floatation from the wetsuit is more relevant in terms of reducing drag…since most men’s legs ride low in the water and the wetsuit makes them buoyant…as opposed to the weight per se.) And, the other personal bottom line (see other post) is that wetsuits can save lives (mine included), which makes me personally a big fan!  Then again, I’m not even close to being a competitive tri-athlete.  So, maybe we should have a recreational category for people like me who enjoy the training, enjoy the comradery and challenge of the the competitions, but still want to see their families on Sunday afternoons….  Just a thought.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would have to disagree.  The work/energy you expend during the bike is directly proportional to the total weight of the bike plus the rider. So….a lighter (often times more expensive) bike does make you effectively lighter.  Seems to me it’s pretty analogous.  (And, BTW, lighter shoes help as well.) Difference: even the most expensive bike can’t make you effectively lighter. The operative word was YOU. Unless you’re crawling along, the work you do on the bike is pretty much dominated by losses to air resistance. On hills there’s a more significant effect, but the point stands. Mark M

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There are some races that stipulate if you use a wetsuit then you are disqualified from placing.  That seems fair in that it lets those who need the suit for safety or confidence reasons to wear one.  The bike is even worse.  I continue to ride a retro 6 speed from 87 and watched several competitors in 98 gain 1-2 mph simply by moving to a 3K+ 9 speed steed.  In a 20mile plus bike that translates to over 2 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Drop the temp to 73 or 74 for the rules. Actually isn’t this what the ITU rules are.  74 (24 deg C) for age groupers and 69 (20 deg C) for elite. AJ (Water temperature here never gets above 24 deg C anyway)

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but I still feel that wetsuit should be allowed at any temperture because of the safety factor.

ANY temp? Our water temp in the Gulf gets way up in the 80’s sometimes. It’s in the mid 80’s today. I would like race directors to have the right to disallow wetsuits under those conditions due to the risk of competitors overheating during the swim.

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Drop the temp to 73 or 74 for the rules. Actually isn’t this what the ITU rules are.  74 (24 deg C) for age groupers and 69 (20 deg C) for elite. AJ (Water temperature here never gets above 24 deg C anyway)

Since some folks have said that in "some" tris they were allowed, some they  weren’t, etc… From the USAT Rulebook: Each age group participant shall be permitted to wear a wet suit without penalty in any event sanctioned by USA Triathlon up to and including a water temperature of 78 degrees Fahrenheit. When the water temperature is greater than 78 degrees, but less than 84 degrees Fahrenheit, age group participants may wear a wet suit at their own discretion, provided however that participants who wear a wet suit within this temperature range shall not be eligible for prizes or awards. Age group participants shall not wear wet suits in water temperatures equal to or greater than 84 degrees Fahrenheit. It would seem that if a race was sanctioned, the above rules would be in effect unless they got a specific waiver. In a few non-sanctioned races I’ve been in, they used the USAT rule anyway. As Lew pointed out, 78 degree water feels quite chilly to most folks. 84 would probably feel comfortable. He also points out that they were established after careful review, so I believe they’re reasonable. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman, Model Railroader, Gamer

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but cold water is no problem.  I have raced Olympic distance races in 65 F water with no wetsuit, and had no problem, and I am a skinny dude.  Wetsuits just make this expensive sport even more so, because if you are trying to place well and all your opponents have wetsuits, you better have one too or you are giving the race away.  I say, wetsuits only for temperatures 65 or below or at highest 68 (which is ten degrees below what it is now).

yep- i think 78 degrees is probably a bit high- but this is a safety issue as well- have you ever swam an hour in 68 degree water? you’ll probably need a 30 minute hot shower to raise your body temp back up- especially if the air temperature is cool- I think 72 is a better mark- as used by the ITU- 78 is almost too warm for a suit, imo

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I think that some races allow and encourage wet suits so that the race organizer will sleep better.   It’s hard to loose someone wearing a suit. Ken

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be doing a tri  this weekend where the water temp will be about 75 F(24 C). Most people will be wearing a wet suit even though at these temps there is no real justification for thermal protection. They are being worn strictly as a floatation device which gives the advantage to weaker swimmers such as myself. Unless there is an actual need for colder water I tend to think they should be banned, even though it is people such as myself who benefit most using a wet suit. That’s just my opinion. What do others think.

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have you ever swam an hour in 68 degree water? you’ll probably need a 30 minute hot shower to raise your body temp back up- especially if the air temperature is cool-

San Francisco bay is just below 65 and after a short 30 min swim, I’m severely affected for the next hour.  It certainly wouldn’t be a good idea to set me loose with a bicycle.   I’m not sure I see the point of the complaints here.  Wetsuits are: 1) safer – they float 2) faster – esp for the slower ones (like me) 3) cheap enough – if you don’t want to spend $400, you can get good new ones for $200, and used ones are out there.  Or rent them. I know a buddy that dives deep in Lake Superior (40F) wearing a pair of shorts.  Doesn’t mean that everyone else will want to or should do it. — Rec.scuba strokes pics page: www.jor.com/strokes Aquashot page: www.jor.com/dive/aquashot

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People use the wetsuits for the flotation aid. I did the first NYC Triathlon last weekend where water temperatures were around 75 F. EVERYBODY wore a wetsuit. The funny part was that the current was so fast that swim times were around 13 minutes (1500 mts). I think that was most the time lost on that race on getting out of the wetsuit at T1 than the minimal advantage on wearing it that day. One for us, the ones who think that wetsuit should be banned in not-cold waters.

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Maybe it’s just ’cause I’m a Florida boy, but 65 is COLD! How ’bout allowing wetsuits at about 72 or below? I think there’s actually a risk of overheating when the temp is up around 78 or higher on a long swim. I swam without a wetsuit in 68 degree water, and that really felt cold to me. Tom "wimpy Florida boy who can’t handle cold, but can run when the temp and humidity are both 95" Henderson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with you.  I am a poor swimmer, but cold water is no problem.  I have raced Olympic distance races in 65 F water with no wetsuit, and had no problem, and I am a skinny dude.  Wetsuits just make this expensive sport even more so, because if you are trying to place well and all your opponents have wetsuits, you better have one too or you are giving the race away.  I say, wetsuits only for temperatures 65 or below or at highest 68 (which is ten degrees below what it is now). I do not compare wetsuit use to fancy bikes, since you must have a bike to do a triathlon, so there is no reason to restrict what kind you have. Nobody needs a wetsuit, except in a few cases (escape from Alcatraz) so there is no reason not to severely restrict their use.

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Well I remember a time when the wetsuit use/don’t use temp was 72F and the water temp was taken an hour or so before the race, I can remember doing a number of tri’s in the early 90’s without one.  I think it really became a liability issue with the race directors.  For a while if the water temp was over 72 you could still ware a wetsuit but you were not eligible for prizes if you chose to ware one.  Maybe they didn’t want to be put in the position of discouraging something that could be considered a "safety device"  Any race directors from the early days out there would be better off commenting.  Also the old TriFed was involved on this issue. I remember doing the old Lake Sunapee, NH race and the water was mid 60’s and going to the local surf shop and buying my first one.  Felt sort of sorry for those without one Just my .02 Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be doing a tri  this weekend where the water temp will be about 75 F(24 C). Most people will be wearing a wet suit even though at these temps there is no real justification for thermal protection. They are being worn strictly as a floatation device which gives the advantage to weaker swimmers such as myself. Unless there is an actual need for colder water I tend to think they should be banned, even though it is people such as myself who benefit most using a wet suit. That’s just my opinion. What do others think.

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All of this came to a head after the rather infamous 1992 Tri-Fed National Championship in Cleveland.  The standard at the time was 72 degrees F;  if it was that or above, wet suits were not permitted.  The race director (one Jack Caress) claimed to have measured the water in accordance with the rule and found it to be 72 degrees.  But it was later established that he was not telling the truth, and that the real temperature was closer to 67 or 68 degrees. The result was about as close to a major catastrophe as this sport has ever come.  A large number of athletes (especially the older, and slower, ones) developed severe hypothermia.  Some had to be rescued from the swim itself, while a number of others experienced the dangers of trying to ride a bike while effectively simulating the symptoms of inebriation. In the furor and even outrage that followed the event, Tri-Fed appointed a committee of medical experts to examine the issue.  It was chaired, if I remember correctly, by Dr. T. K. Miller of Roanoke – who is still active with USAT yet today.  In examining the scientific literature, they discovered that in water temperatures below 78 degrees, the human body began experiencing creeping hypothermia even while exercising at anaerobic threshold.  They also learned that the swimming world had already discovered this fact, and that’s why the pools at most major swim programs are set somewhere in the 79-80 degree range.  How many of you regularly arrive for swim practice, and sit by the edge of the pool, shivering in anticipation? In setting the new standard, the committee also had to look at the people most at risk.  Especially older athletes, who have a decreased ability to adapt to colder temperatures.  So, they decided that they couldn’t afford to err on the low side;  the risk of liability would just be too great (not to mention the threat to human life).  Remember, however:  if you don’t like the rule, you don’t have to wear the wetsuit. Lew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well I remember a time when the wetsuit use/don’t use temp was 72F and the water temp was taken an hour or so before the race, I can remember doing a number of tri’s in the early 90’s without one.  I think it really became a liability issue with the race directors.  For a while if the water temp was over 72 you could still ware a wetsuit but you were not eligible for prizes if you chose to ware one.  Maybe they didn’t want to be put in the position of discouraging something that could be considered a "safety device"  Any race directors from the early days out there would be better off commenting.  Also the old TriFed was involved on this issue. I remember doing the old Lake Sunapee, NH race and the water was mid 60’s and going to the local surf shop and buying my first one.  Felt sort of sorry for those without one Just my .02 Wayne I’ll be doing a tri  this weekend where the water temp will be about 75 F(24 C). Most people will be wearing a wet suit even though at these temps there is no real justification for thermal protection. They are being worn strictly as a floatation device which gives the advantage to weaker swimmers such as myself. Unless there is an actual need for colder water I tend to think they should be banned, even though it is people such as myself who benefit most using a wet suit. That’s just my opinion. What do others think.

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I’ll be doing a tri  this weekend where the water temp will be about 75 F(24 C). Most people will be wearing a wet suit even though at these temps there is no real justification for thermal protection. They are being worn strictly as a floatation device which gives the advantage to weaker swimmers such as myself. Unless there is an actual need for colder water I tend to think they should be banned, even though it is people such as myself who benefit most using a wet suit. That’s just my opinion. What do others think.

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I agree with you.  I am a poor swimmer, but cold water is no problem.  I have raced Olympic distance races in 65 F water with no wetsuit, and had no problem, and I am a skinny dude.  Wetsuits just make this expensive sport even more so, because if you are trying to place well and all your opponents have wetsuits, you better have one too or you are giving the race away.  I say, wetsuits only for temperatures 65 or below or at highest 68 (which is ten degrees below what it is now). I do not compare wetsuit use to fancy bikes, since you must have a bike to do a triathlon, so there is no reason to restrict what kind you have. Nobody needs a wetsuit, except in a few cases (escape from Alcatraz) so there is no reason not to severely restrict their use.

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As one of the swimmers in the NYC Tri that got swept under the barge, I was hugely grateful for the wetsuit.  It very likely saved my life, since I was on the verge of passing out and it helped me float to the surface and remin there until I received assistance.  (BTW, I am not a weak swimmer…just got caught too far out on the barge and got pushed under by other swimmers.) So, I am beginning to conclude that for safety purposes they make a great deal of sense. Sorry about that all you macho folks…I am happy to have worn one and plan to continue.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – People use the wetsuits for the flotation aid. I did the first NYC Triathlon last weekend where water temperatures were around 75 F. EVERYBODY wore a wetsuit. The funny part was that the current was so fast that swim times were around 13 minutes (1500 mts). I think that was most the time lost on that race on getting out of the wetsuit at T1 than the minimal advantage on wearing it that day. One for us, the ones who think that wetsuit should be banned in not-cold waters.

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I am fair on the swim for my age group 49 years old, around  21 minutes for 1500 meters but I still feel that wetsuit should be allowed at any temperture because of the safety factor. I have been in a triathlon back in 1987 when a young strong swimmer didn’t make it. As far as the cost it’s really small when you spread it over time, my last wetsuit lasted 10 years at $250. Our sport can be expenise but if you, a friend or love one has an accident this is pretty cheap.

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<snip and that’s why the pools at most major swim programs are set somewhere in the 79-80 degree range.  How many of you regularly arrive for swim practice, and sit by the edge of the pool, shivering in anticipation?

I was all set to agree with others that the temp. should be lowered for a min. for wetsuits to be allowed.  But you make a very good point here.  It’ll be 90 degrees (outside) and I’ll still sit at the edge of the pool for 10 minutes dreading the plunge into 80 degree water.  Then again I am a little pathetic with cold of any sort. Remember, however:  if you don’t like the rule, you don’t have to wear the wetsuit.

Yeah, but in my case the loss could be several minutes.  But again as you say 79 is pretty reseonable now I think about it. Tim buaidh no bas

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Question:

I’ve done three 1/2 IM courses multiple times, all of which were great:  GCT, WF, Vineman.  And that’s my ranking order:  GCT is fantastic!  I’ll be back in ‘00 for sure, skipping WF to do it– even though I live in northern California! David Janie – I did Wildflower this year and had a great time.  I would highly recommend it.  The ride and run are challenging but scenic. gordo

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Definitely not Muncie! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi: I just completed my first half-ironman and really enjoyed the distance. I want to do two next year but do not know where the various races are located.  I would appreciate any input on your favorite half-ironman and the month of the race if you know it. Thanks!!! Janie

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The best 1/2 I’ve done hands down Keauho in Hawaii. Incredible organization, superior support & aid stations. Sister race to the Ironman. Over part of IM bike & run courses. Great post-race buffet also. Get your entry in early! No complaints! Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi: I just completed my first half-ironman and really enjoyed the distance. I want to do two next year but do not know where the various races are located.  I would appreciate any input on your favorite half-ironman and the month of the race if you know it. Thanks!!! Janie

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Janie – I did Wildflower this year and had a great time.  I would highly recommend it.  The ride and run are challenging but scenic. gordo

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Hi Janie,     The only one I’ve done is the Narragansett 1/2IM, so I have no basis for comparison. I enjoyed the race. The swim is an Ocean swim along the Narragansett town beach. The bike course is as flat as you’ll find anywhere. Most of it is along Rt. 1. which has a 10′ wide break down lane. The run course is and out and back  following the Narrow River and is pretty well shaded. The South County area of RI is a nice place to visit. Lots of beaches and good scenic riding. The race this year is Sept. 12. The race is run by Fisk Independent Race Management (F.I.R.M). http://www.firm-racing.cnchost.com  . I live in Narragansett, so I can provide more details if you need them. Hope this helps. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi: I just completed my first half-ironman and really enjoyed the distance. I want to do two next year but do not know where the various races are located.  I would appreciate any input on your favorite half-ironman and the month of the race if you know it. Thanks!!! Janie

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The gulf coast half ironman in panama beach fl. is a good one also. Flat and fast

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Wildflower near San Luis Obispo, CA is the first weekend in May, and it is a terrific event; but the run is pretty hilly.  It is a whole festival, with 3 separate triathlons (Olympic, Mountain and half ironman).  The Half Ironman usually fills up early.  Best to camp at the lake the night before, since the traffic getting in there in the morning is a mess.   Vineman at the Russin River, CA is also good.  It is at the end of July.  Easier than Wildflower, but the logistics are tough because T2 is 15 miles from T1; There is a full ironman that takes place concurrently.  The half generally fills up.   — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

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 I have done both Firmman in RI and Blackwater Eagleman in MD. Blackwater inthe beginning of June is far better. Course is flat as a pancake but there can be some tides and chop to deal with on the swim, some winds on the bike and sun  and heat on the run. Bike goes through a wild life preserve with real Eagles. Great t-shirt and finishers metal. Well run. Remains an ironman qualifier. www.tricolumbia.org Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I agree with Blackwater.  Good course on the east coast.  Bike gets challenging if windy (so does the swim).  However, don’t remember a finishers medal (did it in 98). Erik

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Hi: I just completed my first half-ironman and really enjoyed the distance. I want to do two next year but do not know where the various races are located.  I would appreciate any input on your favorite half-ironman and the month of the race if you know it. Thanks!!! Janie

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I agree that Keauhou Kona Triathlon is a great 1/2 Ironman race.  By far the best 1/2 I have done (it’s the only one I have ever done (4 times) but I can’t imagine a race being any better except for IMH.) I disagree that the post-buffet rocks.  It sucks.  The past few years, I have been selling my ticket and getting a pizza from Bianelli.  Now if Bianelli’s caters the post-race party, then it would kick ass.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The best 1/2 I’ve done hands down Keauho in Hawaii. Incredible organization, superior support & aid stations. Sister race to the Ironman. Over part of IM bike & run courses. Great post-race buffet also. Get your entry in early! No complaints! Rick Hi: I just completed my first half-ironman and really enjoyed the distance. I want to do two next year but do not know where the various races are located.  I would appreciate any input on your favorite half-ironman and the month of the race if you know it. Thanks!!! Janie

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Question:

If you can read Russian try this site: http://www.sprandi.ru/sports/moscow.htm. OLEG!!  Quick, The time is here.  This may be the break you just needed.    "Indyjogger"       Laurie

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I am thinking about running Moscow Marathon, next August 29th. I didn’t find any website of their. Does anybody know anything about that marathon. Most of all I would like to see a map of the course. Thank you and best regards. Andrea Costa Milan – Italy.

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If you can read Russian try this site: http://www.sprandi.ru/sports/moscow.htm. Ken I am thinking about running Moscow Marathon, next August 29th. I didn’t find any website of their. Does anybody know anything about that marathon. Most of all I would like to see a map of the course. Thank you and best regards. Andrea Costa Milan – Italy.

Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

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If you can read Russian try this site: http://www.sprandi.ru/sports/moscow.htm.

For a nominal free maybe our resident Bolshevik Oleg, will translate. — Caveat Lector!

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That link is for Moscow Intl half-marathon that takes place in May. You are probably talking about MMMM – Moscow Internation Piece Marathon, the one that takes place in late august-beginning of september. I don’t think they have a good website but you can always try to contact them at the numbers listed below (I would suggest trying to fax a request for a map)    (095) 924-08-24 (T/Fx)    (095) 924-15-03    (095) 924-00-15 (Fax)    (095) 924-39-21 If they haven’t changed the route recently, the start is at "Vassilievski Spusk" by the Red Square, most of the route goes along Moscow-river (making it pretty flat) and the finish is by Hotel "Russia". On average about 15 thousand people are expected to race there. The only email address I could find is that of the charity fund for the marathon – maybe they can help you. Good Luck, Oleg

: If you can read Russian try this site: : http://www.sprandi.ru/sports/moscow.htm. : Ken

:I am thinking about running Moscow Marathon, next August 29th. :I didn’t find any website of their. oes anybody know anything about that marathon. Most of all I would like to :see a map of the course. : :Thank you and best regards. : :Andrea Costa :Milan – Italy. : : : : : : Ken Parker : Runner’s Web : A running & triathlon resource site. : http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html —  Oleg

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Question:

Does anybody know when Leon’s triathlon will be run this Summer?  I assume it will be on the hottest and  most humid Sunday in July, as usual, but I have yet to see the exact date.  Leon seems to schedule this race around Mrs. T’s and now Schu’s (save your time and money until the Schu’s organizers can figure out how to do a decent race).  Thos two races are in August, so July seems to be the obvious time for Leon’s.   I’d appreciate any information.

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C’mon, you don’t think that Schu’s was a good venue?  I thought they organized a good race.  Don’t you like swimming in 45 degree water? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anybody know when Leon’s triathlon will be run this Summer?  I assume it will be on the hottest and  most humid Sunday in July, as usual, but I have yet to see the exact date.  Leon seems to schedule this race around Mrs. T’s and now Schu’s (save your time and money until the Schu’s organizers can figure out how to do a decent race).  Thos two races are in August, so July seems to be the obvious time for Leon’s.   I’d appreciate any information.

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Question:

Student looking for a co-op position in a triathlon area. Here’s my situation. I’m half way through my fourth year of a computer science degree and I’m in the co-op program at Acadia University ( http://www.acadiau.ca/ ). I have completed two workterms and have two workterms left ( two-4 month terms or one-8 month term ). I’m posting here on RST looking for anyone who might have contacts for a co-op posting in the triathlon meca of California or Colorado. I’d like to have a chance to train with other triathletes and join a club ( perhaps one like the Golden Gate Tri Club in San Fan.). I am available to begin work May 1st (perhaps sooner), 1997 until December 20ish,1997. As far as my computer experience goes I can easily send a resume to any contacts. I have experience in the following languages;  C, C++ and Smalltalk ( as well as Modula-2, Fortran, QBasic, a little LISP and a little Prolog ). Most of my programming experience has been computer interfacing with real-time data accusition systems ( in C ).  I am comfortable with the following environments; UNIX, X-Windows, Linux, WindoesNT 4.0, Windows95, Windows 3.1 and MS-DOS. I also enjoy HTML as a hobbly ( my triathlon site is at http://dragon.acadiau.ca/~005963m/ ) and do a little consulting. I have experience with systems analysis and design ( experience with system development lifecycles including system analysis, project coordination, logic data modeling, process modeling, working with outsourcing contractors, implementation and maintenance). I am also experienced with relational database design, SQL and have used Oracale and the latest MS-Access ( built a nice database application for a bicycle company ). I am very happy to have chosen comptuer science as my field of study and enjoy my workterms as a chance to learn new skills, meet new people, work hard and share ideas. My personal skills are also one of my biggest assets. I work very well in team environments as well as on my own. I am a very responsible person and and well organized. Along with my university studies I have founded the Acadia Mulitsport Club ( http://axe3.acadiau.ca/~005963m.student.acadia/homepage.html ), am a member of the Computer Science Club, train on a regular basis  and am a NCCP( National Coaches Certification Program – Canadian) Level 2 (technical) cycling coach with the Metro Cycle Club ( http://dragona.acadiau.ca/~005963m/mcc/ ). I am also the Assistant Residence Coordinator (ARC) for an university residence where I am responsible for creating and maintaining a residence atmosphere (one appropiate for studying and enjoying univ. life <smile )  for 130 university students. As ARC I am the team leader and supervisior of six other residence staff. I enjoy a balanced lifestyle of academics, sport and social time. I’m trained in first aid and suicide intervention. My hobbies include photography, music, model trains and thinking of reasons not to ride my rollers. I would enjoy a chance to work on co-op in the state of California or Colorado. I’d enjoy the opportunity to try some big triathlons such as the Escape from Alcatraz or Wildflower. I am a Canadian citizen and have experienced living in the United States ( I lived in Morgantown, WV for two years ). If you or someone you know might be interested in having me  as a by phone ( 902-585-3445 , voice mail picks up after the 4th ring, please leave a message ). If you have any questions please feel free to contact me. Thanks for your time. Jason MacDonald Nova Scotia, Canada Resume available on request.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Student looking for a co-op position in a triathlon area. Here’s my situation. I’m half way through my fourth year of a computer science degree and I’m in the co-op program at Acadia University ( http://www.acadiau.ca/ ). I have completed two workterms and have two workterms left ( two-4 month terms or one-8 month term ). I’m posting here on RST looking for anyone who might have contacts for a co-op posting in the triathlon meca of California or Colorado. If you or someone you know might be interested in having me  as a by phone ( 902-585-3445 , voice mail picks up after the 4th ring, please leave a message ). If you have any questions please feel free to contact me. Thanks for your time. Jason MacDonald Nova Scotia, Canada Resume available on request.

Folks: This young man is for real. I have met him a number of times at local races and he has always been very personable, obviously intelligent, and highly motivated. In my opinion, would make an excellent employee. Dave Aggett Dartmouth, Nova Scotia

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Question:

Hi Im a finnish "triathlete", at least i tri to be. It is quite expensive here in Finland, but you can buy POLAR heart rate monitors TAX-Free at the Helsinki Airport. They are quite competitively priced(if not even cheaper), at least compared to some US prices(mag adds). e.g. The new Vantage NV is less than 400$. Christer Lybeck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon

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Jen & Tim, I recently bought a Polar Accurex Night Vision here in Finland and the price seems to be fixed at around 1,500 FIM equivalent to some 340 USD. The cheapest models sell for just under 900 FIM. Being non-European-citizen, you will be able to claim VAT back. The best place to buy would be the Helsinki Airport Duty Free on your way out of the country, the Accurex NV costs there about 1,200 FIM = 270 USD. If you let me know the exact model you wish to buy, I can get you a price at the airport! Regards Matti Enqvist www-home: www.clinet.fi/~menqvist

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Hi, I’m off to Helsinki in the near future, whilst I won’t have time to do any training, I wondered if Polar heartrate monitors are cheaper in Finland ? Any experience ?                         tim

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: Hi, :   : I’m off to Helsinki in the near future, whilst I won’t have time : to do any training, I wondered if Polar heartrate monitors are : cheaper in Finland ? Any experience ? :   :                         tim Good for you tim (coming to Helsinki) I

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Might be relocating to the ara . Does any body have info on running and cycling on and off road for the area??? Tpmm {tom ryan}

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Tom I live in Reno and have been doin tri’s, runs, mtn. cycling….you name it, for a long time.  Anyway we have a great area for workin out and stayin healthy for races.  There is a good group of tri-types here…six locals went to Hawaii last year including myself.  E-mail me more specific details on what your looking for and I’ll write back. Take care Bill Richards

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I am a grad student in exercise science and our lab does testing for the public (VO2 max, lactate threshold, etc).  We also give them some general guidelines or training plans based on the results of the tests. Since my background from a training standpoint is mostly running, I feel very comfortable with writing workouts for runners. When it comes to cyclists, I do not have as much confidence.  I have been a recreational triathlete in the past, but never trained well on the bike.   Could someone suggest good books on training cyclists to use as a reference? We do not try to serve as a coach, but some general, science based suggestions are provided. Thanks You can e-mail me directly or post here, whichever suits your fancy……

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Question:

Jimmy, You are the man! GD

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: LSavage480 writes:

: Every sport needs athletes with "charisma," in Reinschreiber’s words, : "big athletes on big stages." : Follow the money, and the money is in product endorsements.  Marketers : want winners, but they want colorful winners.   : Miguel Indurain is a great cyclist, maybe the best ever natural talent. : But who can get excited over a six foot Spanish mute? : All this is true, but not everyone races for money.  Some people don’t : care what marketers want.   stuff deleted : Bottom line:  to each his own, and more power to ‘em. : Isn’t this a great country?! : Sincerely, : Jimmy (no charisma) Riccitello Jimmy,   I have to comment about your article in Triathlete. Great Stuff! I appreciated hearing someone poke fun at themselves for making a mistake. (you remember the helmet thing)   Anyway, I’d love to hear more from you on rst whenever you get a chance. TriDork p.s. I guess your wife won the brushes with greatness award by mentioning that she married you. What some fans won’t do to be with a star.

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I, for one, prefer to let results do the talking (even if I am a little less rich, okay poorer, for it).  In my opinion, anyone can have a mohawk (unless they’re suffering from male pattern baldness).  If I recieve tons of press, I would like it to be because I kick Mike Pigg’s butt, or Simon Lessing’s, or Mark Allen’s.  I’m not particularly fond of getting press for having a lead and getting passed, but I’ll take it any way I can get it, mohawks and mousse aside.  But that’s just my opinion. Bottom line:  to each his own, and more power to ‘em. Isn’t this a great country?! Sincerely, Jimmy (no charisma) Riccitello

Jimmy: You sound like an incredibly boring person!  Sitting around waiting for Miguel to speak?  Just once you need to live on the edge.  Go get one of those Souza-type suits for the next race (where does he buy those things?  Victoria’s Secret?).  I don’t think you’d look good in a mohawk, though.  Maybe a dyed flattop might work, though. Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://www.iac.net/~miller/triweb.html

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SORRY MAN YOU RULE, SORRY I INSULTED YOUR HERO, IS YOUR HAIR JUST LIKE THEIRS FROM THE E-MAIL I RECEIVED MANY MANY PEOPLE DO NOT CARE FOR THE TWINS THEY JUST DON’T HAVE THE BALLS TO SAY SO HERE!

They are not my heroes, but I don’t really care to see anyone run over and killed by a car, not even people that would like to see it happen to others. Bruce Platt

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LSavage480 writes: Every sport needs athletes with "charisma," in Reinschreiber’s words,

"big athletes on big stages." Follow the money, and the money is in product endorsements.  Marketers

want winners, but they want colorful winners.   Miguel Indurain is a great cyclist, maybe the best ever natural talent.

But who can get excited over a six foot Spanish mute? All this is true, but not everyone races for money.  Some people don’t care what marketers want.   If I were in triathlon for the money, I would have quit a long time ago. And while I’m not the level of a Miguel Indurain, I compete to see how good I can become.  The money and endorsements that come from that are just icing on the cake. I don’t knock anyone (not very much, anyway) for their tactics in getting $’s, it’s just that some people may prefer results as their tactics.   Five Tours de France.  Miguel is such a bad ass it isn’t even funny. Watching the way he, almost single handedly, destroys his peers, is incredible.  I doubt, when Miguel gets home and watches the tapes of himself performing at full power, he looks to see how nice his hair looks.  And I’m sure he’s doing fine in the money department……all without a drop of mousse or a fancy outfit.   Maybe I’m weird, but if I never hear Indurain speak a word, his incredible display of power and athletic accomplishment, is plenty of excitement for this tri-geek to handle. Keep in mind, I agree, each sport needs personalities.  It’s just that it’s hot here, I’m bored, so I thought I’d ramble on with my goofy opinions I think Chuck (can’t make myself say, or even write, Chuckie V, without parenthesis), and the Debooms are great athletes.  Each of them has the potential to become great.  And their presence is good for the sport. There’s not a whole lot of money in triathlon, and we can’t knock the way someone goes about getting it.  It’s a personal  choice. I, for one, prefer to let results do the talking (even if I am a little less rich, okay poorer, for it).  In my opinion, anyone can have a mohawk (unless they’re suffering from male pattern baldness).  If I recieve tons of press, I would like it to be because I kick Mike Pigg’s butt, or Simon Lessing’s, or Mark Allen’s.  I’m not particularly fond of getting press for having a lead and getting passed, but I’ll take it any way I can get it, mohawks and mousse aside.  But that’s just my opinion. Bottom line:  to each his own, and more power to ‘em. Isn’t this a great country?! Sincerely, Jimmy (no charisma) Riccitello

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John Hansen Writes (repeatedly…)         Debooms…if you can hear me YOU SUCK but good luck anyway.

It appears that this individual likes to hear himself waste bandwidth. Shall we just let this thread fade away and be done with it/him? Bruce Ackman

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SORRY MAN YOU RULE, SORRY I INSULTED YOUR HERO, IS YOUR HAIR JUST LIKE THEIRS FROM THE E-MAIL I RECEIVED MANY MANY PEOPLE DO NOT CARE FOR THE TWINS THEY JUST DON’T HAVE THE BALLS TO SAY SO HERE!

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: SORRY MAN YOU RULE, SORRY I INSULTED YOUR HERO, IS YOUR HAIR JUST LIKE THEIRS : FROM THE E-MAIL I RECEIVED MANY MANY PEOPLE DO NOT CARE FOR THE TWINS : THEY JUST DON’T HAVE THE BALLS TO SAY SO HERE! They’re not twins.

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To ALL,           I wanted to know if anyone out there felt the same way,           They may be great athletes, but " I " feel they are overated           boring athletes, obviously most of you do not agree, thats           great more power to you, yes they would finish the run before           I finish the swim..so what!!! Lance Armstrong gets flamed           constantly in rec. bicycles and I am sure nobody on there           can hang with him.           Debooms…if you can hear me YOU SUCK but good luck anyway.

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Question:

It does work – one way to get the idea is to swim looking at the bottom (OH HORROR – yes that’s right – you will not explode if you don’t keep the waterline just above your goggles).  This head up attitude can accentuate leg dropping.  Just float quietly, and lift your head slowly up and down – you’ll see what I mean.  After swimming this way for a while, you’ll get a better feel for balancing your body, and swimming in the water, not on it. AS my coach Robert Strauss (former Olympian) says, if you’re on the water you are always sinking- if you’re in it, you "fall up" and swim effortlessly. Flame away, traditional swimmer types. Dr. Todd N. Kenyon Key Biscayne, FL

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Even after  "pressing  the T" was  explained to me, I had no

idea  what  the  concept  was  all  about,  or  why  it  was significant  for  better  swimming.  It  seemed  a  bit  too abstract  of a concept  for me to relate  to.  Now I’ve been swimming  competitively for over 30 years (man thats hard to believe),  and I’ve stayed  somewhat  current with  training techniques  during  this time.  Yet I still find the concept of "pressing the T" too  abstract,  even for someone who has completely   internalized   every  aspect  of  their  stroke (speaking personally). Obviously this and other concepts have been well recieved by those who ahve  atended  the camp.  Everyone  I talk to, and everything I read  suggests  the camp is time and money well spent.  It’s just that "Pressing the T" seems weird.<<< It isn’t really all that complicated or abstract.  The idea is just that the best way to keep your hips and legs from sinking is to lean your chest and head into the water, causing the water to press back against your lower body.  Terry Laughlin illustrates this with a kickboard.  If you press one end of the board into the water, the other end pops up.  Most people rely too much on their kick to keep their lower body from sinking. If you can achieve balance in your torso, your legs are then free to concentrate on propulsion.  The reason this technique is called "pressing the T" is that the area on your chest  that you want to press into the water moves as you move through different parts of the stroke.  When on your stomach it is right on your breastbone.  When on your side (during a breath) you press your armpit down.  The technique only works if you maintain T-pressure at all points of your rotation.   Steve Irish

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Even after  "pressing  the T" was  explained to me, I had no idea  what  the  concept  was  all  about,  or  why  it  was significant  for  better  swimming.  It  seemed  a  bit  too abstract  of a concept  for me to relate  to.  Now I’ve been swimming  competitively for over 30 years (man thats hard to believe)…

I agree as well.  I started swimming in ‘71 and have been a swim coach for several years as well.  T.J. correctly pointed out that "pressing the T" comes from butterfly. While the TI camp stories almost rank with "too-good-to-be-true", I’m really glad people are getting results, and I’ve pondered (if I were a rich man) that maybe I’d be able to go and see for myself. Back to "pressing-the-T"…  if you stand straight up and hold your arms straight out, parallel to the ground, you look like a giant "T".  I’m not sure how the "pressing" part actually goes.  A lot of body positioning problems are fixed by proper head positioning.  It also seems if you have proper arm extension and shoulder rotation, then you naturally "press" your chest into the water and hence "press-the-T". Sorry for all the rambling…  In any case, I’m sure this is one of those situations where a picture is worth a thousand words Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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When you are "pressing the buoy" are you in fact keeping your head up during freestyle.  My coaches used to always  tell me to "keep my head up" while swimming.  It works and I’ve felt similar sensations as you describe with this technique.  I suppose you could argue that by lifting your head you are putting pressure on your "buoy" causing it to surge during your stroke. Any correlation here? Being a former competitive swimmer, and recently starting again after a 10 year hiatus, I am interested in any new training info.   Will be in Lauderdale in 3 weeks for the championships. Are you guys going to be out there? Frank Shuster — Charlotte, NC

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From Terry Laughlin: I seem to have started this controversy though I’ve dropped in on it a bit late, but let me add this to make it hopefully a bit more understandable. First because the term "Pressing the T" strikes many people as a bit obtuse, I’m going to change the terminology to "Pressing Your Buoy." Here’s what I mean by this and here’s why it works: 1. Think of a water polo ball or something similarly buoyant. If you push it into the water, what happens? Right! the water pushes it back out. 2. We have only one place on our body that’s similarly buoyant–the space between our armpits and behind the breastbone; it floats mainly because it has volume (Empty Space!) not mass. Most everything else on the body (except for body fat whereever we may have it) tends to sink. So let’s call it our Buoy and it will prove far more valuable to us than the buoy we stick between our legs to keep them afloat. 3. If we push it into the water, the water will respond by pushing it back out. But we use our noggins and make the CHOICE  of what we let the water push out. We choose to release the hips to the surface. It’s that simple and costs us far less energy than trying to keep the hips and legs up by kicking. 4. Finally you add some counterweight to the sinking tendency of the hips and legs, by using the head in this manner (understand that your body in water is really a teeter-totter with it’s fulcrum  somewhere between your waist and your sternum). The longer heavier end naturally wants to sink. Your head, if kept connected via the head-spine line to the hips will act as an effective counterweight. In order to use it this way you have to avoid lifting your head to breathe. So from now on you can refer to this as "Pressing Your Buoy" as I will. Hopefully this will reduce the level of misunderstanding. By the way I’m not surprised at the level of resistance among experienced swimmers to this notion. Many of them don’t have radical balance problems to overcome (unlike 90% of all triathletes) and have over the years evolved intuitive ways of dealing with them. It’s just not something they have to THINK about while swimming, anymore than they need to think about breathing. They just do it. So to suggest to them that they should will likely just give them a pain in the head. Swimmers are often reluctant to change tried and true ways of doing things anyway. But I’ve been swimming for 30 years myself, have finished 2nd at US Masters Nationals and am still learning  more effective ways of interacting with the water, simply by being open to that possibility. Matt Biondi, after he had already set multiple world records and won (how many?–7?) Olympic medals, said that he felt he had learned only 10% of all there was to know about swimming well. If I ever feel that I know it all about swimming, look for me to take up golf because swimming will at that point cease to be interesting to me. Happy laps.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This  concept of  "pressing  the T" was  explained  to me by someone  attending  the  _Total  Imersion_  swim camp.  That person was on deck one night watching swimmers in the water, and telling the coach who was successfully "pressing the T", and  who  was  not.  I was  one  of the  swimmers  that  was "pressing the T". Even after  "pressing  the T" was  explained to me, I had no idea  what  the  concept  was  all  about,  or  why  it  was significant  for  better  swimming.  It  seemed  a  bit  too abstract  of a concept  for me to relate  to.  Now I’ve been swimming  competitively for over 30 years (man thats hard to believe),  and I’ve stayed  somewhat  current with  training techniques  during  this time.  Yet I still find the concept of "pressing the T" too  abstract,  even for someone who has completely   internalized   every  aspect  of  their  stroke (speaking personally). Obviously this and other concepts have been well recieved by those who ahve  atended  the camp.  Everyone  I talk to, and everything I read  suggests  the camp is time and money well spent.  It’s just that "Pressing the T" seems weird. -RC

I agree with you. I have been swimming for quite a while and have always been taught to solve the body balancing problem by other means. I still have scars from all the flames from this thread about a month ago so I will not go into any more detail. If pressing the t works for you, then use it. If it doesn’t, then don’t. T.J. T.J. Fry                  : "It takes a big man to cry, but Clemson University        : that man".-DEEP THOUGHTS by Jack Handy Men’s varsity swimming    :

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This  concept of  "pressing  the T" was  explained  to me by someone  attending  the  _Total  Imersion_  swim camp.  That person was on deck one night watching swimmers in the water, and telling the coach who was successfully "pressing the T", and  who  was  not.  I was  one  of the  swimmers  that  was "pressing the T". Even after  "pressing  the T" was  explained to me, I had no idea  what  the  concept  was  all  about,  or  why  it  was significant  for  better  swimming.  It  seemed  a  bit  too abstract  of a concept  for me to relate  to.  Now I’ve been swimming  competitively for over 30 years (man thats hard to believe),  and I’ve stayed  somewhat  current with  training techniques  during  this time.  Yet I still find the concept of "pressing the T" too  abstract,  even for someone who has completely   internalized   every  aspect  of  their  stroke (speaking personally). Obviously this and other concepts have been well recieved by those who ahve  atended  the camp.  Everyone  I talk to, and everything I read  suggests  the camp is time and money well spent.  It’s just that "Pressing the T" seems weird. -RC

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I have been a triathlete for 5 years comming from a running background. My swimming has steadily improved and currently I am able to complete problem, like many other triatletes, is my kick. It trully is nothing to write home about. I have read in Inside Triathlon about putting weight on your chest, which is suppose to raise your hips and plane you off in the water better. I would greatly appreciate feedback on drills to help achieve this feeling or refine the techinque, because I am getting no feedback both internally and externally (with the masters group I swim)on if I am doing this correctly. Also, I would appreciate any comments from swimmers who have incorporated this technique on the results that they achieved. Thanks, Chris Spaight

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:… I have read in Inside Triathlon about putting weight n your chest, which is suppose to raise your hips and plane you off in :the water better. I would greatly appreciate feedback on drills to help :achieve this feeling or refine the techinque, because I am getting no :feedback both internally and externally (with the masters group I :swim)on if I am doing this correctly. : :Also, I would appreciate any comments from swimmers who have :incorporated this technique on the results that they achieved. and if you ask very, very nicely he may send you some of the workouts that he has suggested and written about in various magazines on the importance of balance and becoming more efficient in swimming.       I did just that about four months ago, after I found my Masters Swimming workouts doing little more than getting me exhausted on a regular basis with no increase in speed.  I took off four months from the swim team and continued to practice on my own 2-3 times per week, but this time the sessions were actual "practices" uses Terry’s suggestions and drills to become more efficient.  I was not that concerned with the clock, and spent the majority of the sessions doing actual drills, and did *much* less yardage than my counterparts in the Masters Group.      The results?  Last week I swam with the Master’s group for the first time since December.  My times were faster than when I left, and faster than those swimmers who had been at my pace prior to my "respite." Several people noticed and commented on the difference.     Lets see now…do I want to swim less yardage and get faster; or swim more yardage, work harder and show no appreciable gains…..Hum-m-m? ;^)   Hey it worked for me.  I still get my heartrate up too high with the Master’s group, so I’ll probably keep my other schedule until about 4-5 prior to actually racing, and then do one workout a week with the group. I also am looking froward to attending one of Terry Laughlin’s TI Swim camps during the next year. Good Luck! Charlie Brown "Always remember that you are unique; just like everybody else"

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