Question:
For hills I do a variety of mile runs on a treadmill at various speeds and inclines. I monitor my heart rate (average and peak) and perform regression analyses with various parameters, such as the day of the run (the first date is assigned day 1, the ergometer reading, METs, etc. If any run has an abnormally higher heart rate, I will rerun that particular run on another day and compare them. These measurements can be normalized, if desired. I also sometimes count my cadence to see if it might be drifting one way or another. I am currently running a series of runs. The variety is not so boring this way and any outliers have been rerun with better results. The reason for the discrepancies are probably due to an overtraining on that particular day. I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills. Thanks. James Before you buy.
– Gary Schnabl (Southwest) Detroit — 2 miles NORTH of Canada
Response:
I’m looking to improve my speed up hills. I was wondering if there was a strategy / a set of exercises that one could do to improve it. As much pleasure as I get from running up hills. I wouldn’t mind an alternative if one exists. Thanks for all the postings. James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kerry Wilson wrote, in part: Maybe we just took the opposite interpretations of his question. Kerry–you make some very good points in your post, and I suppose we should probably get some feedback from James, the original poster of the question, as to what information he really was seeking. We can get carried away (okay, I can get carried away) sometimes in taking one extreme side of a discussion…and giving an answer that while perhaps having some validity doesn’t really answer the question. Part of why I responded the way I did (in a rather caustic manner) is that it seems more and more in society–and that includes the running society- -people are looking for shortcuts, the magic bullets, whatever…looking for the result without having to really put in the effort that will get you there. Many people *hate* hills, yet it’s hard to avoid them in most areas of the country. And running them is hard work…so perhaps I was misinterpreting the question as an attempt to find a shortcut to simply working hard at attaining the goal. Mike C
Before you buy.
Response:
Also I find that at the beginning of runs I always seem to suffer. I’m usually much better after 20 minutes. Whats the best way to fix this? Thanks. James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – only answer, nor is it necessarily a complete one… Perhaps, but the quickest route is usally the one that goes in a straight line…in this case that line being the one that takes you on training runs up hills. Period. If you did that, and nothing else, you would become a good uphill runner. If you weight train, and do nothing else…you won’t become a good hill runner. Oversimplification, maybe. But in my experience, it works wonders. Oversimplification, umm, yeah, more than somewhat. Certainly, if you only do one, you should be doing the running. Still, weight training can help you train the weak links in the mechanism. BobMac
Before you buy.
Response:
I didn’t mean that you were Malceroy or that you hadn’t been around for a while. Your advice just sounded like something he’d say. Although I suppose he would have thrown a few curse words and derogatory statements in there. 
-jeff — Jeffrey Bigham http://www.jeffreybigham.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hate to disappoint you, but I’m not Macelroy. I have been around for quite away. But, I did have to get a new Deja account because Remarq.com no longer has news groups available. Agreed. Thanks for the input Malceroy. -jeff — Jeffrey Bigham http://www.jeffreybigham.com Besides lifting weights, losing about 10 pounds or so would help. I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills. Thanks. James Before you buy. Before you buy. Before you buy.
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Also I find that at the beginning of runs I always seem to suffer. I’m usually much better after 20 minutes. Whats the best way to fix this? Thanks. James
I have a similar problem. Try running a slow mile or two prior to the "real" run, and do a light stretch in the rest period. It works well for me. David (in Ontario) — — :*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. "Nunc scio quit sit amor." .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
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Hate to disappoint you, but I’m not Macelroy. I have been around for quite away. But, I did have to get a new Deja account because Remarq.com no longer has news groups available. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Agreed. Thanks for the input Malceroy. -jeff — Jeffrey Bigham http://www.jeffreybigham.com Besides lifting weights, losing about 10 pounds or so would help. I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills. Thanks. James Before you buy. Before you buy.
Before you buy.
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Agreed. Thanks for the input Malceroy. -jeff — Jeffrey Bigham http://www.jeffreybigham.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Besides lifting weights, losing about 10 pounds or so would help. I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills. Thanks. James Before you buy. Before you buy.
Response:
Well that would be true, but hill running is only one particular part of running and if you do too much to concentrate on that portion your other training will suffer. The most important exercise for running up hills is to run up hills. If you weight train you’ll have to cut back on your hill running for proper recovery – and less hill running isn’t good. -jeff — Jeffrey Bigham http://www.jeffreybigham.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think I said "run uphill every day" anywhere in my posts. The question I believe was "what’s the best exercise to improve speed up hill"….and the answer is…tada! Run uphill. But that wasn’t James’s original question. I’m not sure exactly how to interpret his question ("I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills") given that it contains both singular and plural references to "exercise". I took it to mean that he was looking for a set of exercises or a more or less complete strategy for working on his uphill performance. Maybe we just took the opposite interpretations of his question. I do get a little tired of the specificity argument being carried to extremes, however. Pushed to the limit, the argument says that to train for 5K racing, your training should consist exclusively of running 5Ks at race pace. Anything other than that is a step away from specificity and thus less productive. I don’t think too many people will buy into this position, but that’s the extreme application of the principle. I’ve seen the principle pushed to the extent where swimming coaches have been telling their charges to never practice flip turns at anything less than race pace, because to do so was "training your muscles to do slow flip turns." The problem with applying the principle in this manner is that all considerations except for specificity are ignored. I’ve already alluded to some other considerations, such as * incorporating low-impact exercises into the workout program, * focusing on relatively underdeveloped muscle groups, * paying respect to the hard-easy principle by filling in with a related exercise when a break from hard running is in order, * providing for more variety in a workout program than is possible with running alone. Weight lifting or other peripheral exercises, while possibly being helpful, are not the "best" way…and again, this is all subjective, what works for me may not work for you. I personally cross-train (triathlon training), so I can definitely bear witness to the fruits of doing a multiple of workouts and exercises for overall fitness and strength. However….in order to do something well, you need to do that thing. When I want to work on my hill running abilities, that’s what I do specifically. Not weights, not riding the bike, not swimming, but running up hills of all types. Run them hard, run them easy, but run uphills (being careful not to pound yourself into submission on the downhills) and you *will* become a faster uphill runner in the *shortest* amount of time. Yes, but I’m guessing that, as a triathlete, you already have a well-rounded exercise program. So for you, focusing on uphill running is fine because your exercise program already incorporates the kind of variety that we’ve been recommending to James.
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Again guys, please read my posts in toto…I did not say run up hill every day at the same speed with no plan…"do it often, on a variety of inclines and at a variety of intensities" is some of what I wrote. Mentioned in my post as well was a reference to weight training, etc., but the obvious answer to this question is I guess too simple to be understood clearly. My attempt at being direct I guess was apparently obfuscated in the translation… Okay, I need to work on my endurance now so I’ll go lift some weights….. Mike C
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I don’t think I said "run uphill every day" anywhere in my posts. The question I believe was "what’s the best exercise to improve speed up hill"….and the answer is…tada! Run uphill.
But that wasn’t James’s original question. I’m not sure exactly how to interpret his question ("I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills") given that it contains both singular and plural references to "exercise". I took it to mean that he was looking for a set of exercises or a more or less complete strategy for working on his uphill performance. Maybe we just took the opposite interpretations of his question. I do get a little tired of the specificity argument being carried to extremes, however. Pushed to the limit, the argument says that to train for 5K racing, your training should consist exclusively of running 5Ks at race pace. Anything other than that is a step away from specificity and thus less productive. I don’t think too many people will buy into this position, but that’s the extreme application of the principle. I’ve seen the principle pushed to the extent where swimming coaches have been telling their charges to never practice flip turns at anything less than race pace, because to do so was "training your muscles to do slow flip turns." The problem with applying the principle in this manner is that all considerations except for specificity are ignored. I’ve already alluded to some other considerations, such as * incorporating low-impact exercises into the workout program, * focusing on relatively underdeveloped muscle groups, * paying respect to the hard-easy principle by filling in with a related exercise when a break from hard running is in order, * providing for more variety in a workout program than is possible with running alone. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Weight lifting or other peripheral exercises, while possibly being helpful, are not the "best" way…and again, this is all subjective, what works for me may not work for you. I personally cross-train (triathlon training), so I can definitely bear witness to the fruits of doing a multiple of workouts and exercises for overall fitness and strength. However….in order to do something well, you need to do that thing. When I want to work on my hill running abilities, that’s what I do specifically. Not weights, not riding the bike, not swimming, but running up hills of all types. Run them hard, run them easy, but run uphills (being careful not to pound yourself into submission on the downhills) and you *will* become a faster uphill runner in the *shortest* amount of time.
Yes, but I’m guessing that, as a triathlete, you already have a well-rounded exercise program. So for you, focusing on uphill running is fine because your exercise program already incorporates the kind of variety that we’ve been recommending to James.
Response:
Kerry Wilson wrote, in part: Maybe we just took the opposite interpretations of his question.
Kerry–you make some very good points in your post, and I suppose we should probably get some feedback from James, the original poster of the question, as to what information he really was seeking. We can get carried away (okay, I can get carried away) sometimes in taking one extreme side of a discussion…and giving an answer that while perhaps having some validity doesn’t really answer the question. Part of why I responded the way I did (in a rather caustic manner) is that it seems more and more in society–and that includes the running society–people are looking for shortcuts, the magic bullets, whatever…looking for the result without having to really put in the effort that will get you there. Many people *hate* hills, yet it’s hard to avoid them in most areas of the country. And running them is hard work…so perhaps I was misinterpreting the question as an attempt to find a shortcut to simply working hard at attaining the goal. Mike C
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kerry Wilson wrote, in part: Maybe we just took the opposite interpretations of his question. Kerry–you make some very good points in your post, and I suppose we should probably get some feedback from James, the original poster of the question, as to what information he really was seeking. We can get carried away (okay, I can get carried away) sometimes in taking one extreme side of a discussion…and giving an answer that while perhaps having some validity doesn’t really answer the question. Part of why I responded the way I did (in a rather caustic manner) is that it seems more and more in society–and that includes the running society–people are looking for shortcuts, the magic bullets, whatever…looking for the result without having to really put in the effort that will get you there. Many people *hate* hills, yet it’s hard to avoid them in most areas of the country. And running them is hard work…so perhaps I was misinterpreting the question as an attempt to find a shortcut to simply working hard at attaining the
goal. You’re right about that shortcut part. The one I really liked was how the hard-easy principle got interpreted as not working out more than once every two days. Boy, the public flocked to that one! The thing that just about everyone who’s serious about running agrees on, though, is that the price of improvement is smart, hard work. This seems to go against our society’s grain (the U.S. society, that is). Maybe that’s why I like people who run and swim. Many of them are willing to pay the price. Hills are impossible for me to avoid. I live in a very hilly area and there is simply no possibility of having a running course without some pretty darn hard uphills. And bone-jarring downhills if you let your form slide. Well, OK, sometimes I go up to the High School and run on the track, but other than that, count on some hill work. Actually, I was harping on the weight training as a way of getting MORE work in. After you’ve done all the hill work your legs can sensibly take (or that your psyche is prepared to put up with), you might be able to get in yet more conditioning by doing some well thought-out weight exercises! Higher, faster, farther!
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I agree with what you (whoever it is, I lost track of who actually wrote the post below) say. It’s ridiculous to think that to race 5ks, one should run 5ks at race pace. Wrong. Of course, I’m not sure what coach endorse that idea. The idea is to have some runs/intervals done at 5k pace or faster but shorter distances. The same idea I’ve been trying to say about running uphills: it isn’t just merely run up hills more often. There are tactics to learn and use. Eg., run uphill at x distance at x pace (like interval training when running around the track). C – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But that wasn’t James’s original question. I’m not sure exactly how to interpret his question ("I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills") given that it contains both singular and plural references to "exercise". I took it to mean that he was looking for a set of exercises or a more or less complete strategy for working on his uphill performance. Maybe we just took the opposite interpretations of his question. I do get a little tired of the specificity argument being carried to extremes, however. Pushed to the limit, the argument says that to train for 5K racing, your training should consist exclusively of running 5Ks at race pace. Anything other than that is a step away from specificity and thus less productive. I don’t think too many people will buy into this position, but that’s the extreme application of the principle. I’ve seen the principle pushed to the extent where swimming coaches have been telling their charges to never practice flip turns at anything less than race pace, because to do so was "training your muscles to do slow flip turns." The problem with applying the principle in this manner is that all considerations except for specificity are ignored. I’ve already alluded to some other considerations, such as * incorporating low-impact exercises into the workout program, * focusing on relatively underdeveloped muscle groups, * paying respect to the hard-easy principle by filling in with a related exercise when a break from hard running is in order, * providing for more variety in a workout program than is possible with running alone.
Conal Guan-Yow Ho Department of Anthropology Graduate Student University of California, Santa Cruz Office: 337 Social Sciences I USA
Response:
I don’t think I said "run uphill every day" anywhere in my posts. The question I believe was "what’s the best exercise to improve speed up hill"….and the answer is…tada! Run uphill. Weight lifting or other peripheral exercises, while possibly being helpful, are not the "best" way…and again, this is all subjective, what works for me may not work for you. I personally cross-train (triathlon training), so I can definitely bear witness to the fruits of doing a multiple of workouts and exercises for overall fitness and strength. However….in order to do something well, you need to do that thing. When I want to work on my hill running abilities, that’s what I do specifically. Not weights, not riding the bike, not swimming, but running up hills of all types. Run them hard, run them easy, but run uphills (being careful not to pound yourself into submission on the downhills) and you *will* become a faster uphill runner in the *shortest* amount of time. Mike C
Response:
Running up hills fast. Succinct and accurate. Specificity is the answer. If you want to be a good dancer, dance. If you want to be a good hill climber, climb. Etc etc
I agree, except that there are still many things that one can do aside from just "running up hills fast" as the training programme. I pointed out previously that one should do intervals up a hill, look at one’s running form, and leg strengthening exercises that are specific to running. Yessis book (Explosive Running) is the first running book I have seen that gives strengthening exercises that are specific in REPRODUCING the range of motion that runners go through when running. Check out his book! I don’t have anything yet to say about his strength training exercises because I haven’t been doing what he recommends…yet. C
Response:
I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills. Ummmm….running up hills? It is the most specific exercise you can do. Sure, you could do squats and other various leg-strengthening exercises to help make your legs stronger, but the only absolute, sure-fire way to get better at running up hills is to simply do it, and do it often, on a variety of inclines and at a variety of intensities. Mike C
Howver, there are methods to learn how to run uphill faster. It has already been suggested that leg strengthening exercises be considered. That’s a good one. Another thing to consider is running form. And yet another thing to consider is to do intervals with uphills. In other words, you can run up a hill say 4 x 400m (for example) with a recovery of x minutes or seconds. Just running up more and more hills may not necessarily improve your speed if you don’t find some tactical way to doing it. In the cross-country season, my coach has us do various hill intervals. One of them is to run up an uphill stretch 5 times. The next week, he adds one more lap to it and so on until we do something like 8 laps. C
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answer, nor is it necessarily a complete one… Perhaps, but the quickest route is usally the one that goes in a straight line…in this case that line being the one that takes you on training runs up hills. Period.
Not period, and the quickest route isn’t necessarily the best one. Obviously, running uphill is going to be the main ingredient of any program designed to improve running uphill. However, just running uphill every day invites staleness and exhaustion, and risks injury to overworked muscle fibers, ligaments, and tendons. These problems can mitigated, and additional training benefits can be achieved, by supplementing the "straight line" training with weight training or other "cross-training" types of exercises. Leg exercises can be used, for example, to work the same muscle groups in the motions used in running but without the impact associated with running. They can also be used to focus additional training on a muscle group that is perhaps underdeveloped in comparison to the other groups used in uphill running — antagonist muscles, for example. It also follows the hard-easy principle, where a day that is hard in one aspect but easy in another is followed by a day which is easy in the first aspect but hard in the second. The key word here is "supplementing". The specificity argument is in high vogue at the moment and it contains its elements of truth, but it can be applied so narrowly as to become a straightjacket. Applying it too narrowly ignores the considerable overlap in physiological conditioning that takes place using a wide variety of training techniques, and conveniently sidesteps the issue of stress-related injury. It also ignores all but the physiological aspects of running. It is the whole person that is trained, not just his or her legs. If you did that, and nothing else, you would become a good uphill runner. If you weight train, and do nothing else…you won’t become a good hill runner. Oversimplification, maybe. But in my experience, it works wonders.
But if you supplement uphill running with resistance exercises, you might become an even better uphill runner…
Response:
nor is it necessarily a complete one… Perhaps, but the quickest route is usally the one that goes in a straight line…in this case that line being the one that takes you on training runs up hills. Period. If you did that, and nothing else, you would become a good uphill runner. If you weight train, and do nothing else…you won’t become a good hill runner. Oversimplification, maybe. But in my experience, it works wonders.
Oversimplification, umm, yeah, more than somewhat. Certainly, if you only do one, you should be doing the running. Still, weight training can help you train the weak links in the mechanism. BobMac
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Running up hills fast. Succinct and accurate. Specificity is the answer. If you want to be a good dancer, dance. If you want to be a good hill climber, climb. Etc etc
Agreed, but properly performed weight training can also be of help. Specificity is square on target, but it’s not the only answer, nor is it necessarily a complete one…
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Besides lifting weights, losing about 10 pounds or so would help. I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills. Thanks. James Before you buy.
Before you buy.
Response:
nor is it necessarily a complete one…
Perhaps, but the quickest route is usally the one that goes in a straight line…in this case that line being the one that takes you on training runs up hills. Period. If you did that, and nothing else, you would become a good uphill runner. If you weight train, and do nothing else…you won’t become a good hill runner. Oversimplification, maybe. But in my experience, it works wonders. Mike C
Response:
I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills. Thanks. James Before you buy.
Response:
I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills.
Ummmm….running up hills? It is the most specific exercise you can do. Sure, you could do squats and other various leg-strengthening exercises to help make your legs stronger, but the only absolute, sure-fire way to get better at running up hills is to simply do it, and do it often, on a variety of inclines and at a variety of intensities. Mike C
Response:
Running up hills fast.
Succinct and accurate. Specificity is the answer. If you want to be a good dancer, dance. If you want to be a good hill climber, climb. Etc etc — Caveat Lector!
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Running up hills fast. Sorry, that’s the best thing. Some people might tell you weight, bike riding, or numerous other things, but nothing simulates it like the real thing. -jeff — Jeffrey Bigham http://www.jeffreybigham.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just wondering but what’s the best exercises are to improve running up hills. Thanks. James Before you buy.
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Question:
I will be in SF in April for a scientific meeting (ACS) and would like advise on running routes. I’ll be staying at the Hilton, near the Mascone Center. I’d like a 6 or 7 mile route. Several years ago I stayed near Golden Gate Park and ran there- outstanding!- but I think I’ll be about 3-4 miles from there. Is there any sort of no-car path along the waterfront? Thanks for any help anyone can give. — "ANYTHING WORTH DOING IS WORTH OVERDOING" Bob Burns Mill Hall, PA USA
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You’ll be stuck in the middle of the concrete jungle south of Market…but there is an escape. You can run from Moscone center down Mission Street to the Embarcadero, which runs along the waterfront. Head west (a left from Mission) and you’ll go past Pier 39, Fisherman’s Wharf, Aquatic Park and up the hill to Fort Mason. If you’re really adventurous, you can keep going to the Marina, Chrissy Field and finally the Golden Gate Bridge. That’s probably an hour and a half run. You can go out as far as you want and then double back. Usually the weather’s pretty good, but you might want a windbreaker as you get toward the Marina. have fun.
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Several years ago I stayed near Golden Gate Park and ran there- outstanding!- but I think I’ll be about 3-4 miles from there. Is there any sort of no-car path along the waterfront?
Bob, See: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/therun.html look up the Lake Merced file, that describes the path you are looking for. Many files have public transit links, so you don’t have to limit yourself to that area. Have fun, Lee Rudin San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/
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In about one week I’ll be visiting San Francisco for four days and am looking for 8-20 mile running routes. I’ll be staying in the Union Square area (Powell and Geary) but won’t have a car, so I’ll be starting and finishing at my hotel. A couple of mornings will require runs before sunrise, so adequate illumination would be welcomed. Thanks very much in advance to anyone kind enough to e-mail me or respond via the newsgroup. Ron Ron
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In about one week I’ll be visiting San Francisco for four days and am looking for 8-20 mile running routes. I’ll be staying in the Union Square area (Powell and Geary) but won’t have a car, so I’ll be starting and finishing at my hotel. A couple of mornings will require runs before sunrise, so adequate illumination would be welcomed.
You will be running in the most beautiful places of the world. However you are staying in a high traffic area of S.F. and will find that unpleasant. I suggest working your way to the shoreline and run north or south or different days. Two minimal traffic ways of getting to the shorline are to go up Market to the Ferry Building or Van Ness to Fort Mason. Because these two forementioned streets are main drags, they will have green lights most of the way. After 5-10 minutes of street running, you’ll have some of the most fanstastic runs in the world. If you want to shortcut over to Golden Gate Park or the Pacific Ocean and have some time, then take one of the Metro Lines there. I recommend getting to the east end of the park, then run through the park where there is less traffic. Note it can be warm and sunny on one side the city and chilly fog on the other side. On your longer runs, go all the way around the shoreline, or run across the GG bridge in the Marin Headlands. Find out about the GG bus system if you want to get up to the Mt. Tam area- a respectable one way run. -Rick 14 years carless in the S.F. area.
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In about one week I’ll be visiting San Francisco for four days and am looking for 8-20 mile running routes. I’ll be staying in the Union Square area (Powell and Geary) but won’t have a car, so I’ll be starting and finishing at my hotel. A couple of mornings will require runs before sunrise, so adequate illumination would be welcomed. Ron,
Check out: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/therun.html Look at the San Francisco runs, start at the GG Promenade-and continue up the Coastal trail to your heart’s content. I just did this Saturday, from Aquatic Park to the GG Bridge, Land’s End, then on to the Great Highway and Lake Merced and back-terrific!. The files are all there, enjoy. The Marin Headlands file is under North Bay-I have a link for public transit on there, many of the files will have public transit info. Regards, Lee Rudin San Fransisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/
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Joel — Joel Sylvester Me: www.roe.ac.uk/jswww/ Edinburgh Triathletes: www.roe.ac.uk/jswww/edin_tri