Question:

IF the race organizers promised electrolyte drinks and IF they either a) did not have them, or b) ran out of them, then  I think this lawsuit is perfectly valid.

This is a sore point with me and it’s too bad that it has to come to this.  But there are so many cases of race organizers failing to provide enough liquids and nutrition for the back of the pack.  I see no excuse for it happening especially at established events and for experienced promoters. Is the plaintiff without blame?  No.  But if the allegations in the story are true then he acted in a reasonable manor and suffered permanent injury due to the negligence of others.

The plaintiff probably shouldn’t have placed so much trust in the organizers. OTH, the organizers should place adequate nourishment and hydration at adequate intervals and have a plan to replenish if one runs out.  Do RDs ever plan for this?  The people at the back of the race paid as much as those in front.  They need the same support or maybe a little more.  If it costs a couple of bucks extra so that everyone gets food and drink, add it to my fee. Larry

Response:

Is the plaintiff without blame?  No.  But if the allegations in the story are true then he acted in a reasonable manor and suffered permanent injury due to the negligence of others. This assumes a reasonable manner includes not making any effort to hydrate after the race.  If he lasted three hours after the race, clearly, he had the opportunity to do something about it post race.

On the contrary, I think it is reasonable to expect someone to rehydrate after a race, and certainly reasonable to expect a physician to know to boost his salt levels (the real culprit here).  However,  considering the severity of his hyponatremia I think it likely that he was altered.  Note that it would be possible to demonstrate that he was altered in court, but not the other way around so it’s not really an argument that could hurt him. You are also assuming that he did not make efforts to hydrate after the race.  Nothing in the article suggested he didn’t.  Remember too that hydrating with water often makes hyponatremia worse.  Sever hyponatremia is pretty nasty.  Depending on what’s going on in the body the correct course can be to drink a sports drink or ingesting salt.  Either can make the situation worse or better. James

Response:

Very well possible.   When one is suffering from hyponatremia he may not have the mental capacity to recognize the symptoms nor consume the required electrolytes.   Once hyponatremia is induced we no longer function normally.

One could argue that it could set in during the race and prevent one from using the aid stations, too.  It remains that he had the means available and did not use them for hours before the incident.

Response:

Is the plaintiff without blame?  No.  But if the allegations in the story are true then he acted in a reasonable manor and suffered permanent injury due to the negligence of others.

This assumes a reasonable manner includes not making any effort to hydrate after the race.  If he lasted three hours after the race, clearly, he had the opportunity to do something about it post race.

Response:

If this is really a problem, maybe these races should get taxis for all the joggers……26 miles is an awfully long way to jog.

Response:

Couldn’t have said it better myself so I won’t even try. My son is 7 and one of the major life lessons that gets pounded into his head is that he is responsible for his actions.  Maybe if other parents did the same, his generation wouldn’t have to face this crap. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember hearing much about the ‘98 Rock and Roll Marathon.  About how they totally botched the aid stations.  According to all accounts, in ‘99 they got their act together and the race has been solid since. Anyone run ‘98? From San Francisco Chronicle, 05-08-02 Marathons are known to be hazardous to one’s health — after all, history’s first known marathoner, the Greek soldier Pheidippides, shouted, "Rejoice, we conquer!" and then died, according to legend. But a runner who collapses because race organizers failed to set out enough drinks along the course has grounds for a lawsuit, a state appellate court ruled Tuesday. An organization that stages a marathon "has a duty to organize and conduct a reasonably safe event, which requires it to minimize the risks without altering the nature of the sport," said the Court of Appeal in San Diego. That includes providing adequate water and electrolyte fluids along the 26- mile course, the court said. Some times I’m embarrassed to be an American. When will some people in this country take responsibility for there own actions? When will the court system quite providing protection for every ignorant that can’t dink a glass of water or hold a cup of coffee and on and on. Does anybody see race insurance and thus your entry fees going up after this one? I’m sick and tired of paying for everyone elses bad decisions. <Deep Breath <Deep breath <Deep Breath It’s ok I’m all right now, Sorry about that. ~Matt The court reinstated a suit by a Chicago physician, Richard Saffro, who ran in the inaugural "Suzuki Rock ‘N’ Roll Marathon" in San Diego in June 1998, his third marathon, and finished in 4 hours and 17 minutes. He suffered a seizure on the flight home and was hospitalized in critical condition with severe hyponatremia, caused by reduced sodium levels in the blood. His medical experts said he hadn’t drunk enough fluids during the race. He was on a ventilator for four days and suffered lasting neurological damage that has left him unable to practice medicine, his attorneys said. Saffro has virtually no memory of the race but said he had stopped for drinks at every station in his other marathons. A runner who finished a half hour later said there was no water at the two-mile station, no volunteers with cups until the 4.1-mile mark and none of the promised electrolyte drinks anywhere on the course, apparently because the leading runners had already consumed them. Saffro’s suit against the organizer, Elite Racing Inc., was dismissed by a Superior Court judge, who said hyponatremia was an inherent risk of marathons. The judge relied on a 1992 state Supreme Court ruling barring suits over sports injuries that result from ordinary risks of the sport. But the appellate court said runners are entitled to expect that the organizer won’t increase the ordinary risks. In this case, a trial is needed to decide whether Elite Racing failed to take reasonable steps to protect the runners and whether Saffro was injured as a result, the court said.

Response:

… Most states have a "last clear chance" law with regard to traffic accident liability that says if you discard the last clear chance to avoid an accident, you are at fault.  In other words, the right of way doesn’t relieve you of the obligation to do what you can to avoid a collision.  You can’t just decide to ram someone who illegally pulls out in front of you.

In Canada you can.  Not recommended though. Tom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me ask:     How long after the Marathon did Dr. Saffro have his seizure?     Did any other runners suffer seizures and hyponatremia after the Marathon?     Did Dr. Saffro take the usual steps after a marathon to replace lost fluids, electrolytes, and carbohydrates? Also, (and I’m sure some lawyer will bring this up), first, water has no bearing on this.  Drinking more water will hake hyponatremia worse.  So it boils down to few issues: 1.  Whether the drinks advertised (or reasonably expected to be there)     were there. 2.  How much there absence affected the injury. 3.  What other factors (such as post race activity and whether he     would have taken it if it were there) affected the outcome. 4.  Whether the performance (or lack there of ) of the race organizers     is construed to be gross negligence. You see, the guy has a tough road.  One, as mentioned, sporting events are held to a different standard.  Second, the good doctor signed a waiver.  This means that just the fact that there wasn’t the drinks he required there isn’t good enough (even if this directly caused his injuries), but that the organizers failure to provide them was gross negligence and hence can be actioned despite the waiver.

        In reality, the waiver is pretty useless.  It does not mean that if you come to a race I put on that there is never a grounds for a lawsuit.  If I do not properly control traffic, I could be held negligent.         However, I think this will be an interesting case.  The plaintiff has a point about the fluids running out, but it is mot that simple.  The time course of the seizure (was it the next day?) is important.  Also, was the plaintiff taking fluids early on when they were available (if they were available).         The number of people who could be called as witnesses could be staggering.         On a different note, considering how much docs typically despise lawyers, I find a bit of amusement in this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

BUNCHA WHINERS, A FEW GUYS DIE AND YOU’RE ALL BITCHIN…   "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

prohylactic course of antibiotics after the race unbidden.  Futhermore, the Ironhorse organizer, in choosing to AVOID the available chlorinated entry and exit point, effectively actively contrived to increase the risk by commission, as opposed to this case’s alleged act of ommission. FYI, I had said there is a chlorinated area now.  I have no idea if it was there at the time or was put in later as a result of the incident.

Others pointed out that it was chlorinated at the time, and that this was a factor in the decision to avoid it – misplaced concern for wetsuits.  I’ve been teaching SCUBA for 15 years in the same wetsuit, 6 or more hours per week in chlorinated pools, and it’s still fine.

Response:

Very well possible.   When one is suffering from hyponatremia he may not have the mental capacity to recognize the symptoms nor consume the required electrolytes.   Once hyponatremia is induced we no longer function

normally. Indeed. My argument would be that he should have recognized the lack of support and pulled out of the race.

I’m sure he should have but I doubt very seriously I would have under similar circumstances. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.   I can see both sides. We do pay for those fluids with our entry fee and have a right to expect them.

IF the race organizers promised electrolyte drinks and IF they either a) did not have them, or b) ran out of them, then  I think this lawsuit is perfectly valid. Is the plaintiff without blame?  No.  But if the allegations in the story are true then he acted in a reasonable manor and suffered permanent injury due to the negligence of others.

Response:

prohylactic course of antibiotics after the race unbidden.  Futhermore, the Ironhorse organizer, in choosing to AVOID the available chlorinated entry and exit point, effectively actively contrived to increase the risk by commission, as opposed to this case’s alleged act of ommission.

FYI, I had said there is a chlorinated area now.  I have no idea if it was there at the time or was put in later as a result of the incident.

Response:

James,  I think we can see the results if the information about lack of electrolytes is true.   He has a good case. Ken

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very well possible.   When one is suffering from hyponatremia he may not have the mental capacity to recognize the symptoms nor consume the required electrolytes.   Once hyponatremia is induced we no longer function normally. Indeed. My argument would be that he should have recognized the lack of support and pulled out of the race. I’m sure he should have but I doubt very seriously I would have under similar circumstances. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.   I can see both sides. We do pay for those fluids with our entry fee and have a right to expect them. IF the race organizers promised electrolyte drinks and IF they either a) did not have them, or b) ran out of them, then  I think this lawsuit is perfectly valid. Is the plaintiff without blame?  No.  But if the allegations in the story are true then he acted in a reasonable manor and suffered permanent injury due to the negligence of others.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I remember hearing much about the ‘98 Rock and Roll Marathon.  About how they totally botched the aid stations.  According to all accounts, in ‘99 they got their act together and the race has been solid since. Anyone run ‘98? From San Francisco Chronicle, 05-08-02 Marathons are known to be hazardous to one’s health — after all, history’s first known marathoner, the Greek soldier Pheidippides, shouted, "Rejoice, we conquer!" and then died, according to legend. But a runner who collapses because race organizers failed to set out enough drinks along the course has grounds for a lawsuit, a state appellate court ruled Tuesday. An organization that stages a marathon "has a duty to organize and conduct a reasonably safe event, which requires it to minimize the risks without altering the nature of the sport," said the Court of Appeal in San Diego. That includes providing adequate water and electrolyte fluids along the 26- mile course, the court said.

Some times I’m embarrassed to be an American. When will some people in this country take responsibility for there own actions? When will the court system quite providing protection for every ignorant that can’t dink a glass of water or hold a cup of coffee and on and on. Does anybody see race insurance and thus your entry fees going up after this one? I’m sick and tired of paying for everyone elses bad decisions. <Deep Breath <Deep breath <Deep Breath It’s ok I’m all right now, Sorry about that. ~Matt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The court reinstated a suit by a Chicago physician, Richard Saffro, who ran in the inaugural "Suzuki Rock ‘N’ Roll Marathon" in San Diego in June 1998, his third marathon, and finished in 4 hours and 17 minutes. He suffered a seizure on the flight home and was hospitalized in critical condition with severe hyponatremia, caused by reduced sodium levels in the blood. His medical experts said he hadn’t drunk enough fluids during the race. He was on a ventilator for four days and suffered lasting neurological damage that has left him unable to practice medicine, his attorneys said. Saffro has virtually no memory of the race but said he had stopped for drinks at every station in his other marathons. A runner who finished a half hour later said there was no water at the two-mile station, no volunteers with cups until the 4.1-mile mark and none of the promised electrolyte drinks anywhere on the course, apparently because the leading runners had already consumed them. Saffro’s suit against the organizer, Elite Racing Inc., was dismissed by a Superior Court judge, who said hyponatremia was an inherent risk of marathons. The judge relied on a 1992 state Supreme Court ruling barring suits over sports injuries that result from ordinary risks of the sport. But the appellate court said runners are entitled to expect that the organizer won’t increase the ordinary risks. In this case, a trial is needed to decide whether Elite Racing failed to take reasonable steps to protect the runners and whether Saffro was injured as a result, the court said.

Response:

, OK, right here I have a problem with this suit.  "On the flight home," not at the finish line –

Very well possible.   When one is suffering from hyponatremia he may not have the mental capacity to recognize the symptoms nor consume the required electrolytes.   Once hyponatremia is induced we no longer function normally. My argument would be that he should have recognized the lack of support and pulled out of the race.   His argument would be that he expected to get replenished at the next ade station. I had just such a thing happen to me at IMNZ in 97.   On the bike leg ade stations were running dry of any fluid replenishment.  I would be told that I could get some at the next one only to learn that it too was dry when I got there.  Being a little on the competitive side and having put so much into this race to capture the coveted IMH slot I pushed on,  won my age group, set a course record only to collapse an hour after finishing, even though I had tried to replenish on the run and after finishing. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.   I can see both sides. We do pay for those fluids with our entry fee and have a right to expect them. Ken

Response:

I think that’s been done.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sheesh.  It rained here yesterday for the 5th Tuesday in a row, cancelling my Tuesday night ride and putting me on the rollers AGAIN.  I think I’ll sue God.

Response:

Hmm, Brian can you explain the apparent inconsistency here?

There is none. On the one hand, you are all for a suit against a triathlon in which some people got sick because the RD did not know the lepto counts in the lake. On the other, you are against a suit against a marathon in which a guy had a seizure because the RD did not provide the support that they indicated they would.  The latter seems to be willful negligence, the former only possibly so.

The issue I raised was the victim’s contributory negligence.  It is not a reasonable expectation for the Ironhorse participants to have taken a prohylactic course of antibiotics after the race unbidden.  Futhermore, the Ironhorse organizer, in choosing to AVOID the available chlorinated entry and exit point, effectively actively contrived to increase the risk by commission, as opposed to this case’s alleged act of ommission.   Most states have a "last clear chance" law with regard to traffic accident liability that says if you discard the last clear chance to avoid an accident, you are at fault.  In other words, the right of way doesn’t relieve you of the obligation to do what you can to avoid a collision.  You can’t just decide to ram someone who illegally pulls out in front of you. Since he left the race venue under his own steam, and had the means to rehydrate available to him after, and presumably before, said departure, he had the last clear chance to avoid the seizure.           When I finish a race, even though I’m never thirsty and always have to piss like a racehorse, I drink as much electrolyte replacement as I can stand.

Response:

Hmm, Brian can you explain the apparent inconsistency here? On the one hand, you are all for a suit against a triathlon in which some people got sick because the RD did not know the lepto counts in the lake. On the other, you are against a suit against a marathon in which a guy had a seizure because the RD did not provide the support that they indicated they would.  The latter seems to be willful negligence, the former only possibly so. James

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The court reinstated a suit by a Chicago physician, Richard Saffro, who ran in the inaugural "Suzuki Rock ‘N’ Roll Marathon" in San Diego in June 1998, his third marathon, and finished in 4 hours and 17 minutes. He suffered a seizure on the flight home and was hospitalized in critical condition with severe hyponatremia, OK, right here I have a problem with this suit.  "On the flight home," not at the finish line – he had to change clothes (and presumeably shower,) get his stuff together, travel to the airport, check in, board, and take off.   Two to three hours minimum, during which time we’re to believe an experienced marathoner with a physician’s training, and with a physician’s financial resources, had neither reason, opportunity nor means to obtain and consume a jug of Gatorade?   Can you say "contributory negligence?"

Response:

 I remember hearing much about the ‘98 Rock and Roll Marathon.  About how

they totally botched the aid stations.  According to all accounts, in ‘99 they got their act together and the race has been solid since. Anyone run ‘98?  <<      I ran it in just over five hours and I got something to drink at every aid station.  I thought they ran out of drinks sometime after that.      My problem was the delay at the start of the race, which I think was forty minutes long.  I stayed in the corral and got queasy from the crowd; the delay also hurt when the day warmed up quicker than anticipated.  It wasn’t a very pleasant experience, but it wasn’t anything I’d sue over either. Mike

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember hearing much about the ‘98 Rock and Roll Marathon.  About how they totally botched the aid stations.  According to all accounts, in ‘99 they got their act together and the race has been solid since. Anyone run ‘98? From San Francisco Chronicle, 05-08-02 Marathons are known to be hazardous to one’s health — after all, history’s first known marathoner, the Greek soldier Pheidippides, shouted, "Rejoice, we conquer!" and then died, according to legend. But a runner who collapses because race organizers failed to set out enough drinks along the course has grounds for a lawsuit, a state appellate court ruled Tuesday. An organization that stages a marathon "has a duty to organize and conduct a reasonably safe event, which requires it to minimize the risks without altering the nature of the sport," said the Court of Appeal in San Diego. That includes providing adequate water and electrolyte fluids along the 26- mile course, the court said. The court reinstated a suit by a Chicago physician, Richard Saffro, who ran in the inaugural "Suzuki Rock ‘N’ Roll Marathon" in San Diego in June 1998, his third marathon, and finished in 4 hours and 17 minutes. He suffered a seizure on the flight home and was hospitalized in critical condition with severe hyponatremia, caused by reduced sodium levels in the blood. His medical experts said he hadn’t drunk enough fluids during the race. He was on a ventilator for four days and suffered lasting neurological damage that has left him unable to practice medicine, his attorneys said. Saffro has virtually no memory of the race but said he had stopped for drinks at every station in his other marathons. A runner who finished a half hour later said there was no water at the two-mile station, no volunteers with cups until the 4.1-mile mark and none of the promised electrolyte drinks anywhere on the course, apparently because the leading runners had already consumed them. Saffro’s suit against the organizer, Elite Racing Inc., was dismissed by a Superior Court judge, who said hyponatremia was an inherent risk of marathons. The judge relied on a 1992 state Supreme Court ruling barring suits over sports injuries that result from ordinary risks of the sport. But the appellate court said runners are entitled to expect that the organizer won’t increase the ordinary risks. In this case, a trial is needed to decide whether Elite Racing failed to take reasonable steps to protect the runners and whether Saffro was injured as a result, the court said.

Another nail in the coffin of opportunity.  The operative phrase here is "BECAUSE  race organizers failed to set out enough drinks along the course." Let me ask:     How long after the Marathon did Dr. Saffro have his seizure?     Did any other runners suffer seizures and hyponatremia after the Marathon?     Did Dr. Saffro take the usual steps after a marathon to replace lost fluids, electrolytes, and carbohydrates?

Response:

The court reinstated a suit by a Chicago physician, Richard Saffro, who ran in the inaugural "Suzuki Rock ‘N’ Roll Marathon" in San Diego in June 1998, his third marathon, and finished in 4 hours and 17 minutes. He suffered a seizure on the flight home and was hospitalized in critical condition with severe hyponatremia,

OK, right here I have a problem with this suit.  "On the flight home," not at the finish line – he had to change clothes (and presumeably shower,) get his stuff together, travel to the airport, check in, board, and take off.   Two to three hours minimum, during which time we’re to believe an experienced marathoner with a physician’s training, and with a physician’s financial resources, had neither reason, opportunity nor means to obtain and consume a jug of Gatorade?   Can you say "contributory negligence?"

Response:

You can lead a runner to an aid station, but you can’t make him drink. Bollocks. Drink some Gatorade. Eat a bag of chips. Have some soup. Sheesh.  It rained here yesterday for the 5th Tuesday in a row, cancelling my Tuesday night ride and putting me on the rollers AGAIN.  I think I’ll sue God. Hurricane Bob * Nothing frivolous here – just 100% Bob *

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember hearing much about the ‘98 Rock and Roll Marathon.  About how they totally botched the aid stations.  According to all accounts, in ‘99 they got their act together and the race has been solid since. Anyone run ‘98?

Response:

Let me ask:     How long after the Marathon did Dr. Saffro have his seizure?     Did any other runners suffer seizures and hyponatremia after the Marathon?     Did Dr. Saffro take the usual steps after a marathon to replace lost fluids, electrolytes, and carbohydrates?

Also, (and I’m sure some lawyer will bring this up), first, water has no bearing on this.  Drinking more water will hake hyponatremia worse.  So it boils down to few issues: 1.  Whether the drinks advertised (or reasonably expected to be there)     were there. 2.  How much there absence affected the injury. 3.  What other factors (such as post race activity and whether he     would have taken it if it were there) affected the outcome. 4.  Whether the performance (or lack there of ) of the race organizers     is construed to be gross negligence. You see, the guy has a tough road.  One, as mentioned, sporting events are held to a different standard.  Second, the good doctor signed a waiver.  This means that just the fact that there wasn’t the drinks he required there isn’t good enough (even if this directly caused his injuries), but that the organizers failure to provide them was gross negligence and hence can be actioned despite the waiver.

Response:

<snip An organization that stages a marathon "has a duty to organize and conduct a reasonably safe event, which requires it to minimize the risks without altering the nature of the sport," said the Court of Appeal in San Diego. That includes providing adequate water and electrolyte fluids along the 26- mile course, the court said. The court reinstated a suit by a Chicago physician

<alarm bells go off Don’t get me wrong. I am all for race organizers providing support along the way. However, and especially in this instance, the lawsuit is outrageously without merit. Can someone say, "physician sue thyself?" If anyone should have been aware of the dangers and taken steps to lessen the problems, an individual with a medical degree should have been that person. Even if he hadn’t taken sufficient electrolytes during the race, shouldn’t someone in the medical profession know better than to get on a plane prior to taking some care of his body? Curioser and curioser. — Eduardo Suastegui "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (remove ‘701′ when replying via e-mail)

Response:

I remember hearing much about the ‘98 Rock and Roll Marathon.  About how they totally botched the aid stations.  According to all accounts, in ‘99 they got their act together and the race has been solid since. Anyone run ‘98? From San Francisco Chronicle, 05-08-02 Marathons are known to be hazardous to one’s health — after all, history’s first known marathoner, the Greek soldier Pheidippides, shouted, "Rejoice, we conquer!" and then died, according to legend. But a runner who collapses because race organizers failed to set out enough drinks along the course has grounds for a lawsuit, a state appellate court ruled Tuesday. An organization that stages a marathon "has a duty to organize and conduct a reasonably safe event, which requires it to minimize the risks without altering the nature of the sport," said the Court of Appeal in San Diego. That includes providing adequate water and electrolyte fluids along the 26- mile course, the court said. The court reinstated a suit by a Chicago physician, Richard Saffro, who ran in the inaugural "Suzuki Rock ‘N’ Roll Marathon" in San Diego in June 1998, his third marathon, and finished in 4 hours and 17 minutes. He suffered a seizure on the flight home and was hospitalized in critical condition with severe hyponatremia, caused by reduced sodium levels in the blood. His medical experts said he hadn’t drunk enough fluids during the race. He was on a ventilator for four days and suffered lasting neurological damage that has left him unable to practice medicine, his attorneys said. Saffro has virtually no memory of the race but said he had stopped for drinks at every station in his other marathons. A runner who finished a half hour later said there was no water at the two-mile station, no volunteers with cups until the 4.1-mile mark and none of the promised electrolyte drinks anywhere on the course, apparently because the leading runners had already consumed them. Saffro’s suit against the organizer, Elite Racing Inc., was dismissed by a Superior Court judge, who said hyponatremia was an inherent risk of marathons. The judge relied on a 1992 state Supreme Court ruling barring suits over sports injuries that result from ordinary risks of the sport. But the appellate court said runners are entitled to expect that the organizer won’t increase the ordinary risks. In this case, a trial is needed to decide whether Elite Racing failed to take reasonable steps to protect the runners and whether Saffro was injured as a result, the court said.

Response:

Question:

He’s over at rec.sports.triathlon these causing the same scene that we dealt with earlier. I guess sales are down. You’re right, it is rubbish. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jon, will you quit posting the same rubbish with a slightly revised first couple of paragraphs every couple of months – we’ve already done this article to death here. Just go read the archives and imagine you have something new to say.

Response:

we’ve been thru’ this here before. less than a couple of months ago. jobs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this

Response:

Jon, will you quit posting the same rubbish with a slightly revised first couple of paragraphs every couple of months – we’ve already done this article to death here. Just go read the archives and imagine you have something new to say. — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://distancerunner.tmfweb.nl "The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have training logs to keep; and miles to run before I sleep".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. ****** 9 August 2001 The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record By Jon Entine When the gun goes off for the men

Question:

Thanx for the help. But I think Nixon was in office when I took Spanish. All I know how to say now is "Dos Equis, por favor". That’s usually enough. It looks like there are 4 races over 2 weeks and I can get into this one: Distances: 1.5 km. Swim – 40 km. Bike -10 km. Run Prize Money: $ 7,500 USD. Entry Fee: $ 55 USD NOTE: To enter this event fill out this form. Categories: Age Groups and Juniors Thanks again for your help. This is going to make a great vacation! -David try this one guys http://www.asdeporte.com/deportes/deporte.php3?deporte=2 as well as www.triatlon.com.mx  of course

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you tried this site: http://www.maadsports.com/english.html. Ken the race is november 4, it will be the pan american age group champs the race course is 2 laps swim, 5 lap really flat bike and 2 lap run The is a mexican tri federation web site at www.triatlon.com.mx, i’m not sure if they have any info in english. But if you they let me know

and i’ll try to help Ive seen a few references to an ITU race in Cancun, Mexico at the

end of – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – October. Ive looked at the ITU site, but there really isnt much info. Does anyone have any info on this race ? Is there an age group portion of this race I can compete in ? rules ? dates ? Any info would be appreciated. -David —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—– Ken Parker Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

Response:

Ive seen a few references to an ITU race in Cancun, Mexico at the end of October. Ive looked at the ITU site, but there really isnt much info. Does anyone have any info on this race ? Is there an age group portion of this race I can compete in ? rules ? dates ? Any info would be appreciated. -David

Response:

the race is november 4, it will be the pan american age group champs the race course is 2 laps swim, 5 lap really flat bike and 2 lap run The is a mexican tri federation web site at www.triatlon.com.mx, i’m not sure if they have any info in english. But if you they let me know and i’ll try to help Ive seen a few references to an ITU race in Cancun, Mexico at the end of October. Ive looked at the ITU site, but there really isnt much info. Does anyone have any info on this race ? Is there an age group portion of this race I can compete in ? rules ? dates ? Any info would be appreciated. -David

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Have you tried this site: http://www.maadsports.com/english.html. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -the race is november 4, it will be the pan american age group champs the race course is 2 laps swim, 5 lap really flat bike and 2 lap run The is a mexican tri federation web site at www.triatlon.com.mx, i’m not sure if they have any info in english. But if you they let me know and i’ll try to help Ive seen a few references to an ITU race in Cancun, Mexico at the end of October. Ive looked at the ITU site, but there really isnt much info. Does anyone have any info on this race ? Is there an age group portion of this race I can compete in ? rules ? dates ? Any info would be appreciated. -David —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Ken Parker Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

Response:

try this one guys http://www.asdeporte.com/deportes/deporte.php3?deporte=2 as well as www.triatlon.com.mx  of course

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you tried this site: http://www.maadsports.com/english.html. Ken the race is november 4, it will be the pan american age group champs the race course is 2 laps swim, 5 lap really flat bike and 2 lap run The is a mexican tri federation web site at www.triatlon.com.mx, i’m not sure if they have any info in english. But if you they let me know and i’ll try to help Ive seen a few references to an ITU race in Cancun, Mexico at the end of October. Ive looked at the ITU site, but there really isnt much info. Does anyone have any info on this race ? Is there an age group portion of this race I can compete in ? rules ? dates ? Any info would be appreciated. -David —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—– Ken Parker Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

Response:

Question:

Hi, I have read several times that the "do-or-die" US system of qualifying for the olympics in track and field is different from most countries.  I am curious if anyone knows any details about how some of the other countries do their systems.  I hope to not start an argument on the *merits* of the various systems but rather curious on the specifics for some other countries.  Thanks

In Denmark, the respective sports organizations sets up a qualifying result that the athlete / swimmer etc. has to reach within a timeframe. Most competitions will count. This is at least true for running and swimming.

Response:

    The best place on the web to find out more about Canada’s elite athletes in track and field is at the Athletics Canada web site: www.canoe.ca/Athcan. As far as identifying our best runners for Sydney, in my estimation there are about a half-dozen or so worth mentioning.  In the sprints, Donovan Bailey and Bruny Surin are the top men, while Philomena Mensah is starting to run consistently in the high 10.9 to low 11 range.  In the middle distances, Kevin Sullivan is having a fantastic season in Europe, having just set a new national record in the 1500m, (3:32).  Graham Hood is our other top 1500 runner, having been an Olympic Finalist in Barcelona and won Pan Am Gold in Winnipeg ‘99, (which he won with a devastating kick).  Leah Pells is our best female hope.  She lost the Pan Am Gold to Marla Runyan by 0.001 seconds in Winnipeg, (I was there live and was convinced she had won), and finished 4th in the Atlanta Olympic final.  Canada has no really remarkable distance runners, but Carol Montgomery is worth a mention as she will compete in both the 10 000m and the Women’s Triathlon in Sydney, (an event in which she is a heavy favourite to win a medal).  In the field events, Mark Boswell is a top high jumper, (silver in Seville) and should contend in Sydney.  Other than that, the rest of the track team will be rather weak, but a couple of medals is a definite possibility, (don’t count out the 4×100 relay either). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would love to find out more about Canada’s elite runners. Who are they and where on the web can I find out more information on them? My immediate family lives in Canada and are Canadian citizens…but unfortunately I am not a Canadian citizen nor do I live there. Would love to know more about my "parent’s country" though Conal Here in Canada, the selection process is done in order to ensure that every athlete will either finish in the top 16 or the top half of the field. With this in mind the qualifying standards to make the Canadian team are somewhat more difficult than the IAAF standards.  To the best of my knowledge, the following criteria apply to qualifying to the Canadian team: A. The athlete must finish in the top 4 at the Canadian Olympic Trials, ( 11-13 August 2000 in Victoria). B. The athlete must either: 1. Achieve the A+ performance standard prior to 31 December 1999, or finish top 7-16, (differs depending on the event), at the IAAF World Championships in Seville. OR  2. Achieve the A standard prior to the close of the Olympic Trials, (13 August 2000). The Canadian Team for the Olympics will be officially announced by Athletics Canada and the Canadian Olympic Association on 15 August 2000 once all the nominations have been received based on the Trial’s results and previous performances. In reality this system is somewhat flawed because many up-and-coming athletes who may only finish 35th or 40th in Sydney, and thus won’t be selected, could certainly use the experience of competing at an Olympic Games as they will almost certainly be in peak form at the following Olympics in Athens.  Considering the relative affluence of Canada, this type of penny-pinching seems to be rather counter-productive, but the COA claims that Canada can’t afford to send athletic tourists to major competitions. Considering the funding Sport Canada gets for all of the national sports federations this may be true…. — Conal Guan-Yow Ho                                 Department of Anthropology Graduate Student                        University of California, Santa Cruz Office: 337 Social Sciences I USA —

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    In reality this system is somewhat flawed because many up-and-coming athletes who may only finish 35th or 40th in Sydney, and thus won’t be selected, could certainly use the experience of competing at an Olympic Games as they will almost certainly be in peak form at the following Olympics in Athens.

Flawed? NO KIDDING! I have heard one knowledgeable coach say that one of the Canadian standards (in shot put?) has never been met in any drug-tested, international competition. We will, however, be sending a full and complete team of bureaucrats, with alternates, coaches, and support staff, to compete in the freestyle freeloading medley relay, where we expect to rival the perennial favorite, the IOC. Considering the relative affluence of Canada, this type of penny-pinching seems to be rather counter-productive, but the COA claims that Canada can’t afford to send athletic tourists to major competitions. Considering the funding Sport Canada gets for all of the national sports federations this may be true….

There are certainly people who savagely resent every nickel spent on amateur athletes, and who have campaigned intensely to have it stopped. BobMac

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Would love to find out more about Canada’s elite runners. Who are they and where on the web can I find out more information on them? My immediate family lives in Canada and are Canadian citizens…but unfortunately I am not a Canadian citizen nor do I live there. Would love to know more about my "parent’s country" though Conal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in Canada, the selection process is done in order to ensure that every athlete will either finish in the top 16 or the top half of the field. With this in mind the qualifying standards to make the Canadian team are somewhat more difficult than the IAAF standards.  To the best of my knowledge, the following criteria apply to qualifying to the Canadian team: A. The athlete must finish in the top 4 at the Canadian Olympic Trials, ( 11-13 August 2000 in Victoria). B. The athlete must either: 1. Achieve the A+ performance standard prior to 31 December 1999, or finish top 7-16, (differs depending on the event), at the IAAF World Championships in Seville. OR  2. Achieve the A standard prior to the close of the Olympic Trials, (13 August 2000). The Canadian Team for the Olympics will be officially announced by Athletics Canada and the Canadian Olympic Association on 15 August 2000 once all the nominations have been received based on the Trial’s results and previous performances. In reality this system is somewhat flawed because many up-and-coming athletes who may only finish 35th or 40th in Sydney, and thus won’t be selected, could certainly use the experience of competing at an Olympic Games as they will almost certainly be in peak form at the following Olympics in Athens.  Considering the relative affluence of Canada, this type of penny-pinching seems to be rather counter-productive, but the COA claims that Canada can’t afford to send athletic tourists to major competitions. Considering the funding Sport Canada gets for all of the national sports federations this may be true….

Conal Guan-Yow Ho                                 Department of Anthropology Graduate Student                        University of California, Santa Cruz Office: 337 Social Sciences I                                            USA

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The UK: Trials are held in conjunction with the AAA Champs in 3 weeks time (apart from 10,000m, this w/e and marathon run as part of London). The winner of the trials race is automatically selected PROVIDED THEY HAVE ACHIEVED THE A STANDARD. The next two places are selected by committee, although in practice 2nd and 3rd in the trials only miss out if a known medal hope was absent through injury etc. or if they do not have the A standard. Athletes that do not have the A standard have until a certain date to find a competition and achieve it. If they fail, and there are others with the standard, the others get the nod. Only if there are no athletes with the A standard will B standard athletes get to go. Their selection is as above, trial winner gets preference, then it goes to committee. IanB. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I have read several times that the "do-or-die" US system of qualifying for the olympics in track and field is different from most countries.  I am curious if anyone knows any details about how some of the other countries do their systems.  I hope to not start an argument on the *merits* of the various systems but rather curious on the specifics for some other countries.  Thanks

Response:

I cannot give you specifics on what country does what, but here is an overview: Option 1:  A committee selects the athletes based on some criteria (maybe overall results, PRs, etc)         I know the Kenyans use the Boston Marathon as their Olympic Marathon trials.         Sometimes the criteria could be the person most likely to medal even if their recent results have not been good (sort of selecting the "big meet" racer. Option 2:  One spot is based on racing or a race and the other spots (if there are any) are committee selection.

Hi, I have read several times that the "do-or-die" US system of qualifying for the olympics in track and field is different from most countries.  I am curious if anyone knows any details about how some of the other countries do their systems.  I hope to not start an argument on the *merits* of the various systems but rather curious on the specifics for some other countries.

Thanks

Response:

    Here in Canada, the selection process is done in order to ensure that every athlete will either finish in the top 16 or the top half of the field. With this in mind the qualifying standards to make the Canadian team are somewhat more difficult than the IAAF standards.  To the best of my knowledge, the following criteria apply to qualifying to the Canadian team:     A. The athlete must finish in the top 4 at the Canadian Olympic Trials, ( 11-13 August 2000 in Victoria).     B. The athlete must either:         1. Achieve the A+ performance standard prior to 31 December 1999, or finish top 7-16, (differs depending on the event), at the IAAF World Championships in Seville. OR  2. Achieve the A standard prior to the close of the Olympic Trials, (13 August 2000).     The Canadian Team for the Olympics will be officially announced by Athletics Canada and the Canadian Olympic Association on 15 August 2000 once all the nominations have been received based on the Trial’s results and previous performances.     In reality this system is somewhat flawed because many up-and-coming athletes who may only finish 35th or 40th in Sydney, and thus won’t be selected, could certainly use the experience of competing at an Olympic Games as they will almost certainly be in peak form at the following Olympics in Athens.  Considering the relative affluence of Canada, this type of penny-pinching seems to be rather counter-productive, but the COA claims that Canada can’t afford to send athletic tourists to major competitions. Considering the funding Sport Canada gets for all of the national sports federations this may be true….

Hi, I have read several times that the "do-or-die" US system of qualifying for the olympics in track and field is different from most countries.  I am curious if anyone knows any details about how some of the other countries do their systems.  I hope to not start an argument on the *merits* of the various systems but rather curious on the specifics for some other countries.

Thanks

Response:

Hi, I have read several times that the "do-or-die" US system of qualifying for the olympics in track and field is different from most countries.  I am curious if anyone knows any details about how some of the other countries do their systems.  I hope to not start an argument on the *merits* of the various systems but rather curious on the specifics for some other countries.  Thanks

Response:

Question:

I am hearing a rumor about ‘boycott’ of this race due to dangerous course. Anyone in on this? Heard anything? Know the course? Lynne —

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The Villneuve course is anything but dangerous, and will be close to traffic on race day. What may be dangerous is 1500 athletes out there on it at once! It is only 4km per loop, and there are some pretty fast flat/downhill sections. The pavement is like velvet, and the corners are designed to be taken at high speed (it is a Formula One course, afterall). My only concern would be how the organisers are going to be staggering the waves. Also, a few athletes, including CDN pro Andrew McMartin, managed to count their laps incorrectly, and did some extra riding when it was National Champs in 1994. The organisers did however give you 9 little stickers to put on your aerobars, to count your laps. Sounds silly, but then again so does riding an extra lap. Cheers, Grant – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am hearing a rumor about ‘boycott’ of this race due to dangerous course. Anyone in on this? Heard anything? Know the course? Lynne —

Response:

Thank you for setting the record straight, Grant. Truth is, the course is among the safest in the world. Closed to traffic, the circuit is very wide. Anyone who has raced on it will say so. Anyone who doesn`t know what they are talking about will try and spread rumours… USA, Germany and Australia team managers visited the race over the last weeks and did not raise this as a potential danger. ITU technical delegate Jaime Cadaval, Technical committee chair Loreen Barnett, marketing director Michael Gilmore have all seen the course and are extremely satisfied by its layout. The race has been held on this circuit for the past 8 years (with one Canadian Championship), without any safety concern raised. Sunday drivers backing out of their garages to go to church are infinitely more dangerous! This simply cannot happen on this course, because it is closed to local traffic and there are no houses! There are many steep downhill courses in the world which end up with a 90 degree turn that wouldn`t even attract these types of comments. Athletes will have the chance to practice on the course on the days leading to the event, and the quality of the surface promises some record times on the bike. ITU and the Montreal Organizing committee keep safety as the primary concern in any course decision. This is a fact. Although we are 100% confident that it will not create a problem, we are currently reviewing the spread between waves. The course can safely have a capacity of 300 cyclists. Nevertheless, we are looking at the possibility of spreading out the waves every 40 minutes, instead of every 30 minutes. What we wouldn’t do to keep our athletes happy and scab-free! Correction, Grant… There will NEVER be 1,500 athletes at the same time on the course. Only long-distance races have massive starts with more than 150-200 athletes per wave. Yes, Andrew MacMartin miscounted and did 1 lap too many in 1994. But then he was also riding next to Mark Bates, who exited at the right time and went on to win the race… I don’t know of any other elite athlete who has done this. There was also a concern about oil possibly being on the course. You must know that outside of the F1 Grand Prix race (held early June), the track holds NO OTHER automobile race during the year. Any possible residue of oil has already been washed away at this time of the year. The signage will be very clear and understandable. We will have a full-time volunteer on site to provide advice for the athletes training on the course on the days preceding the race, and who may have questions. We stay in constant contact with elite athletes such as Isabelle Turcotte Baird and Sharon Donnelly. They are very excited about the layout of the course and have not raised any concern about this. Any other questions, you may direct to myself at You can also lok at pictures of the course on our web page at www.montreal-triathlon99.org We are dedicated to offer the best ever World Triathlon Championships. I have been to every ITU TWC and Canadian National championship race since 1994. Montreal’s course promises to be among the safest, best and most exciting course in the world. We have a $600,000 promotion campaign planned to bring the Montreal population to the race site and cheer the athletes, making it the year’s happening in the city. But don’t take my word for it… come see for yourself! Very best regards, Patrice Brunet (co-race director)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Villneuve course is anything but dangerous, and will be close to traffic on race day. What may be dangerous is 1500 athletes out there on it at once! It is only 4km per loop, and there are some pretty fast flat/downhill sections. The pavement is like velvet, and the corners are designed to be taken at high speed (it is a Formula One course, afterall). My only concern would be how the organisers are going to be staggering the waves. Also, a few athletes, including CDN pro Andrew McMartin, managed to count their laps incorrectly, and did some extra riding when it was National Champs in 1994. The organisers did however give you 9 little stickers to put on your aerobars, to count your laps. Sounds silly, but then again so does riding an extra lap. Cheers, Grant I am hearing a rumor about ‘boycott’ of this race due to dangerous course. Anyone in on this? Heard anything? Know the course? Lynne —

Response:

 I wonder what all the fuss is over, in that case. It would be hard to imagine anything scarier than last year’s Lausanne course.  Thanks for the clarity ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Truth is, the course is among the safest in the world. Closed to traffic, the circuit is very wide. Anyone who has raced on it will say so. Anyone who doesn`t know what they are talking about will try and spread rumours… USA, Germany and Australia team managers visited the race over the last weeks and did not raise this as a potential danger.

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Question:

John, Here here to the tandem. My wife and I don’t own one. However, we use friends or rent one when ever we can. If any one has a partner who is fit but still below your level, then the tandem is the way to go. You can both ride together and they are a heck of a lot of fun to ride. A warning: If you have any communications problems with your partner, sort them out BEFORE riding a tandem together. It could be the end of your relationship. Then again riding a tandem together could be the start of an even better realationship. Getting deep today. Now should that be a road tandem or a tri tandem? Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chuck, I just realized that I am getting seriously close to "bike snobbery" because in addition to the road and tri bikes, my girlfriend and I have solved the riding together issue by buying a tandem which we ride regularly.  We had the same problem as you and your wife.  I would ride hard for a while and then circle back.  She was frustrated because she felt she was pushing too hard and I was frustrated because I had to keep going back.  Now I can ride in my heartrate range and she is going at her pace.  A neat solution.  I will often take my road or tri bike in the car if we go to a tandem ride and then ride my bike after the tandem ride which is usually too short for a good training ride. For the serious Triathlete, who has a partner they would like to ride with sometimes, the tandem is a great way to go.  Of course, on a tandem, someone is subject to "back seat driving" John Jeff,  Both: the right tool for the right job. You are likely to get essentially this same response from folks who know a lot more about bikes and cycling than me but FWIW I am very glad that I took advantage of the RST net.wisdom and kept my road bike last winter when I got my tri bike. If both are set-up correctly, you should have no problems going back and forth (I got my LBS to set me back up correctly on the road bike when I took off the forward seat post; part of that was putting on a shorter stem). The road bike is ideal for group rides and riding easy this time of year. The tri bike is, of course, ideal for races, hard workouts, etc. For long, easier in-season rides by myself I’ll usually use the tri bike but alternate if I haven’t been on the road bike in a while. If I’m with my wife (we ride together a lot) and it is a fairly flat route, I’ll ride the road bike since she can tuck in behind me and we can both ride in our target HR zones while staying together (when I’m on the tri bike or it’s hilly I have to keep circling back and so we are riding "together" only in the sense that we are on the same road and close enough to be keeping an eye on each other). If you can afford it, count my "vote" for two bikes.  – Chuck   Department of Biology,  University of Alabama at Birmingham            http://www.uab.edu/uabbio/amsler.htm

Response:

Thanks John & Steve for the advice.  I’ve thought that I tandem is the way to go there (and having two friends here in town who own a tandem shop is a common reminder) but hadn’t heard from someone who actually used one for training (as opposed to just touring). It’s a couple bikes away in the list (behind a tri bike for Maggie and either a new, smaller road frame or a whole new road bike for her) but it is definitely on the list! I may have to put an addition on our garage to get everything in though… As for communications, we’ve made it more than 18 years so far (a few weeks short of 20 counting the engagement), but thanks for the warning… 8^)   — Chuck    Department of Biology,  University of Alabama at Birmingham             http://www.uab.edu/uabbio/amsler.htm

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Netters– The complete results for every finisher (including relay teams) from last weekend’s Motorola Austin Marathon are available on the Runner Triathlete News web site.  Simply click on: www.runningnetwork.com/runtrinews to access them.  You’ll find them in the Race Results section (naturally). The men’s race was particulary interesting, as the first five runners finished within 15 seconds of each other. Lance Phegley Editor Runner Triathlete News www.runningnetwork.com/runtrinews

Actually, I was at the finish, and would swear the first four were within 1.5 seconds of each other.  It was literally a pack sprint — they were tripping over each other into the chute.  Amazing.  If anyone saw a photo, I’d appreciate knowing about it.  I think the timer spread them out somehow. Dan

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I run 6 times a week sometimes seven the most milage i’ll put in for a week is 50 -60. Running is not like lifting weights, you don’t have to give the muscle group a break unless your body tell you  it needs one. gradually build your way up stay at 30 minute jogs for 2 to 3 weeks then move up a bit.  a good book to get for beginning runners i the runners handbook by bo Glover. good luck.

Response:

        I somewhat disagree with the notion that you do not have to give the muscles a break as one does in strength training.  However, while one may run alomost every day, the intensity does need to change to give the muscles an "easy" day.  In strength training, one will often use the muscle to volitional fatigue.  This is sort of like running intervals. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I run 6 times a week sometimes seven the most milage i’ll put in for a week is 50 -60. Running is not like lifting weights, you don’t have to give the muscle group a break unless your body tell you  it needs one. gradually build your way up stay at 30 minute jogs for 2 to 3 weeks then move up a bit.  a good book to get for beginning runners i the runners handbook by bo Glover. good luck.

Response:

Netters– The complete results for every finisher (including relay teams) from last weekend’s Motorola Austin Marathon are available on the Runner Triathlete News web site.  Simply click on: www.runningnetwork.com/runtrinews to access them.  You’ll find them in the Race Results section (naturally). The men’s race was particulary interesting, as the first five runners finished within 15 seconds of each other. Lance Phegley Editor Runner Triathlete News www.runningnetwork.com/runtrinews

Response:

I am a new runner.  However, I am in pretty good condition from consistent Nordic Trekking (30 minutes on the thing, 5 x a week, sometimes 45 minutes on bike for a change), years of lifting weights, and daily walking.  My question is this:  I just started jogging.  My first time out I jogged 30 minutes, my second time 38 minutes.  My third time 45 minutes.  I felt fine and like I could continue.  The day after I jogged 45 minutes I went for what was going to be a short jog and after 5 minutes I could not continue.  Is this typical?  Do you avid joggers jog every day? Thanks for the input.

        I would recommend slowing the rate of increase.  I subscribe to the 10% rule:  Never increase your mileage (or minute-age) by over 10% from one week to the next.  By my rough calculation from Day 1 to Day 2 you increased 25% and then from Day 2 to Day 3 increased 20%.         Could be that you got glycogen depleted  if you were not replenishing your carbo stores.         Also some people run every day and take great pride in their streaks of days running.  I personally and professionally find this to be an unsound practice for just about anyone.  Many world class runners take a day off once a week or every other week (of course they are freaks of nature anyway).         Plan a few days off here and there and relax or hit the gym and lift weights!

Response:

Sounds like you are progressing very quickly.  You may have had problems because you are simply tired.  You might want to increase the durations of your runs a little more slowly.  Also, it may help to take a day off after a long run.  When I increase my mileage/duration, I try to run the same distance/time a couple of times before I increase.  It seems to allow my body to get used to the new mileage/duration; therefore, making it easier to increase to the next level.  maria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a new runner.  However, I am in pretty good condition from consistent Nordic Trekking (30 minutes on the thing, 5 x a week, sometimes 45 minutes on bike for a change), years of lifting weights, and daily walking.  My question is this:  I just started jogging.  My first time out I jogged 30 minutes, my second time 38 minutes.  My third time 45 minutes.  I felt fine and like I could continue.  The day after I jogged 45 minutes I went for what was going to be a short jog and after 5 minutes I could not continue.  Is this typical?  Do you avid joggers jog every day? Thanks for the input.

Response:

run 30-40 minutes straight off, doing this 4-5 times a week is a different matter.  Running regularly puts strains on your muscles that your body needs to get used to.  Reduce the length of your runs and build them up again slowly. Five runs of eight minutes each is probably better for a beginner can one run per week of forty minutes. I am a new runner.  However, I am in pretty good condition from consistent Nordic Trekking (30 minutes on the thing, 5 x a week, sometimes 45 minutes on bike for a change), years of lifting weights, and daily walking.  My question is this:  I just started jogging.  My first time out I jogged 30 minutes, my second time 38 minutes.  My third time 45 minutes.  I felt fine and like I could continue.  The day after I jogged 45 minutes I went for what was going to be a short jog and after 5 minutes I could not continue.  Is this typical?  Do you avid joggers jog every day?

            l -’                                    _ /

Response:

Ann, I agree with Mike and Madelaine.  Running is harder on the body than your other cross training.  Read INSIDE RUNNING by David Costill, 1986, Cooper Publishing, if you want to understand why.  My guess is that you just did too much too soon.  Don’t get discouraged by this. Chances are that if you stick to the 10% rule you could increase your training and run 6 or 7 days a week injury free.  If you train smart. By the way, you don’t say what made you stop but if it was shin pain or any foot or leg pain use ibuprofin and ice.  Ice 15 to 20 minutes. Good luck. Johnny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Is this typical?  Do you avid joggers jog every day? Ann: Listen to Madelaine. The above paragraph is one of the best pieces of advice for newbies.

Response:

I am a new runner.  However, I am in pretty good condition from consistent Nordic Trekking (30 minutes on the thing, 5 x a week, sometimes 45 minutes on bike for a change), years of lifting weights, and daily walking.  My question is this:  I just started jogging.  My first time out I jogged 30 minutes, my second time 38 minutes.  My third time 45 minutes.  I felt fine and like I could continue.  The day after I jogged 45 minutes I went for what was going to be a short jog and after 5 minutes I could not continue.  Is this typical?  Do you avid joggers jog every day? Thanks for the input.

The answer is that different activities use muscles differently. Running requires sharp/quick contractions of the muscles, while biking and walking (for example) require slow contractions. The muscles/tendons take some time to condition themselves to each activity. Avid joggers jog everyday. Ray Mascia

Response:

: Is this typical?  Do you avid joggers jog every day? It depends. Most everything does. I don’t. I run three times a week maximum and walk or cross train on other days. But I’m injury-prone and middle aged. Other people with younger bodies or ones that are a bit better designed than mine can do more. You have to (a) treat yourself with respect (b) listen to what your body tells you (c) be conservative in how much training you do at first, never letting yourself get overtaken by enthusiasm to the point where you radically overtrain.

Ann: Listen to Madelaine. The above paragraph is one of the best pieces of advice for newbies. Everyone is different in what their body can take and how fast they recover. You need to find out what your body needs. Remember, what you are doing is stressing the body, which reacts by re-building itself stronger. One of the keys is allowing recovery time to do this rebuilding. That means rest days, especially for new runners. Err on the side of rest at first. As you gain experience,  you’ll be able to do more – safely. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "garbaage." for email reply http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/ WebRunner Running Page My Model Railroad page IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website

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Sounds like you are progressing very quickly.  You may have had problems because you are simply tired.  You might want to increase the durations of

i agree. and it is a slight change for your system to get used to . i wouldn’t worry about it. You probably did great the next day some days when i run i just feel very lethargic.  just run through it best you can and then tomorrow you’ll have a better run As for "avid" joggers (I’d have to count myself in there), when i’m lifting weights heavily i usually do 5x a week. When i’m not lifting weights heavily I usually do 6 to 7 a week (6 if i do a long run , 7 if not) -ben

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I’d say most runners take days off. The most common schedule I hear is one day a week. I also hear of 3 and 5 day day a week runners.

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I jog 4 to 5 miles a day 6 days a week. Been doing it now for 3 1/2 years. 42 years old and until age 39 avoided exercise like the plague:-) Jack – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a new runner.  However, I am in pretty good condition from consistent Nordic Trekking (30 minutes on the thing, 5 x a week, sometimes 45 minutes on bike for a change), years of lifting weights, and daily walking.  My question is this:  I just started jogging.  My first time out I jogged 30 minutes, my second time 38 minutes.  My third time 45 minutes.  I felt fine and like I could continue.  The day after I jogged 45 minutes I went for what was going to be a short jog and after 5 minutes I could not continue.  Is this typical?  Do you avid joggers jog every day? Thanks for the input.

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I’m new, too and I had a similar prob a couple of times.  One of the times was diet related.  I hadn’t eaten well during the day (I jog in the evening) and didn’t have the stamina – not out of breath but my body and mind had no energy.  The other time I had run 3 days in a row and the 4th day I just couldn’t keep my posture good and my body ached.  I also got out of breath too soon.  Now I jog every other day and inbetween I lift weights or swim.  On the days I jog now, I feel stronger and can go on and on just fine.  I hate running, though and do it to get into shape.  But I’ve noticed that if I don’t run for a few days in a row, I become irritable and restless, perhaps gloomy or blue also.  Maybe I’m addicted to the endorphins my brains produces.  So, I’m stuck.  I just havta run!                 |  |                _|  |               (____)                     O O    SKATE ON, BABY!                                 — Marilyn —

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Hi Ann,     I will give you my .02 for what it is worth.  I have been running about a year and a half and it took me some time to work up to running 5-6 days in a week (I don’t run everyday because I like to do other thing to give my running muscle a rest.)  I follow a few rules every time I start a new activity or sport.  First realize that even though you may exercise you are working different muscles so there will be some adapting that your body will have to do.  Second don’t try to do it all right away.  How does this apply to you.  I think you should try running a few days a week and say 3-4 depending on how you feel, and increase the mileage and frequency slowly.  I have used the 10% rule that you may hear many RR talk about. Increase mileage 10% a week.  Try to schedule some rest days in as you start and as you progress you might try to cut back on mileage say every fourth week before going up again (so it would be 3 or 4 weeks increase mileage and then decrease one week and repeat). Hope this help, and happy running KARL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a new runner.  However, I am in pretty good condition from consistent Nordic Trekking (30 minutes on the thing, 5 x a week, sometimes 45 minutes on bike for a change), years of lifting weights, and daily walking.  My question is this:  I just started jogging.  My first time out I jogged 30 minutes, my second time 38 minutes.  My third time 45 minutes.  I felt fine and like I could continue.  The day after I jogged 45 minutes I went for what was going to be a short jog and after 5 minutes I could not continue.  Is this typical?  Do you avid joggers jog every day? Thanks for the input.

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: I am a new runner.   And I’m somewhat of a born-again runner, so I know the excitement you’re going through. : However, I am in pretty good condition from : consistent Nordic Trekking … : years of lifting weights, : and daily walking.   I was in somewhat similar shape when I went back to running six months ago. What I quickly found was that all the walking and strength training made me strong aerobically and strengthened my legs. Running, however, makes very specific demands on your legs — especially, in my case, my lower legs and most markedly my shins — that walking and treadmills and other sports and leg extensions don’t prepare you for. : My question is this:  I just started jogging.  My : first time out I jogged 30 minutes, my second time 38 minutes.  My third : time 45 minutes.  I felt fine and like I could continue.  The day after : I jogged 45 minutes I went for what was going to be a short jog and : after 5 minutes I could not continue.   Be grateful that you got the sort of warning from your body that you couldn’t ignore. Otherwise, you could have gone blithely on and given yourself a chronic injury. : Is this typical?  Do you avid joggers jog every day? It depends. Most everything does. I don’t. I run three times a week maximum and walk or cross train on other days. But I’m injury-prone and middle aged. Other people with younger bodies or ones that are a bit better designed than mine can do more. You have to (a) treat yourself with respect (b) listen to what your body tells you (c) be conservative in how much training you do at first, never letting yourself get overtaken by enthusiasm to the point where you radically overtrain. You also need excellent shoes and post-run stretching. Madeleine "enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!" Page

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why couldnt you continue? was it a physical problem or mental? i have run for 19 years and still find days when i am just not up to it mentally. then there are days when i dont want to stop. keep at it. good luck.    chad

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Anne, I’m a newer runner and have experienced similar feelings.  I started more slowly then you did, but every now and then I will hit a day or days when I feel like I’m made of lead and jogging 30 minutes becomes a near impossibility. I usually take this as a sign that I should take the next day off and do upper body work.  When I take a day off,  I find that if I jog the following day I have more energy and stamina than ever.  I think you have to listen to your body and sometimes push it a little bit, but not be afraid to say, ok, today isn’t the day for this. Hell, there’s nothing wrong with taking a day off now and then, hah? Enjoy!  I know I have (except for those killer days!) Heather

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I am a new runner.  However, I am in pretty good condition from consistent Nordic Trekking (30 minutes on the thing, 5 x a week, sometimes 45 minutes on bike for a change), years of lifting weights, and daily walking.  My question is this:  I just started jogging.  My first time out I jogged 30 minutes, my second time 38 minutes.  My third time 45 minutes.  I felt fine and like I could continue.  The day after I jogged 45 minutes I went for what was going to be a short jog and after 5 minutes I could not continue.  Is this typical?  Do you avid joggers jog every day? Thanks for the input.

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Question:

: Just wondering how many RSTers are planning on doing Seaside Heights : and if anyone wants to figure out a place to meet perhaps the day : before?  That way those of us doing the short race (although I’ve seen : it called a Sprint it is actually much closer to being Olympic,er ugh : TRIATHLON, distance) can cheer on those members doing the long race. I’ll be there doing the 1/2.  Well, at least I think I will…providing I can still register?  Last minute change of plans.  If anyone has an entry form they could fax me I’d really appreciate it, since at this point I know nothing about the race and can’t seem to get ahold of the RD. Jason — Jason Mayfield Arlington, VA http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa 87 Days Until Ironman Canada

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I am planning on doing the race. cindy gagnon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering how many RSTers are planning on doing Seaside Heights and if anyone wants to figure out a place to meet perhaps the day before?  That way those of us doing the short race (although I’ve seen it called a Sprint it is actually much closer to being Olympic,er ugh TRIATHLON, distance) can cheer on those members doing the long race. -hug

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: Just wondering how many RSTers are planning on doing Seaside Heights : and if anyone wants to figure out a place to meet perhaps the day : before?  That way those of us doing the short race (although I’ve seen : it called a Sprint it is actually much closer to being Olympic,er ugh : TRIATHLON, distance) can cheer on those members doing the long race. : -hug I’ll be there, I guess, but I’ve only just found that out.  I’d love to meet the RST crowd, but someone else should propose the time and place.   I still don’t know where Seaside Heights is.   Steve Irish

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I would like to go to Seaside but what is the distance of the "sprint" (short race)? RS

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I will be at Seaside, it would be fun to meet some cybernauts there. Anyone knows a place to meet. Luis Vargas

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I will be at Seaside, freezing my n— off in the half Ironman. -Rolf —    Rolf "Ironman" Arands, Ph.D. (Chemical Engineering)   Dept. of Chem. and Biochem. Eng’g, Rutgers University  –These are my highly opinionated views, not Rutgers’–

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I’m going too! I’m doing the short distance (0.5m,23m,5m) which is their usual race from previous years. Best place to meet may be at the awards party, where everyone can finally relax. We can keep this subject up until next week, and make final plans. My wife & I are staying at  the Aztec Motel on the beach/boardwalk. Anyone else? Stay tuned. IronBut

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Bill and I will be there, although I am not racing.  I will be bringing my massage table so any RSTer’s stop by and get a free post race massage. Diana McLaughlin Better Known as Bill’s wife

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MCLAUGHLIN) writes: Bill and I will be there, although I am not racing.  I will be bringing my massage table so any RSTer’s stop by and get a free post race massage. Diana McLaughlin Better Known as Bill’s wife

AHH, incentive to go faster – race to the massage table!  Sounds like a potential meeting place to me!  In the past they have had a group of masseuses/masseurs in a tent – are you gonna be among them? Sorry to hear you won’t be racing, but probably good news for me since we’re in the same age group! Oh, I got the race packet in the mail today and there is a mandatory pre-race  meeting at 6 pm at the pasta dinner.  Hopefully we all can hook up there. -hug  

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Just wondering how many RSTers are planning on doing Seaside Heights and if anyone wants to figure out a place to meet perhaps the day before?  That way those of us doing the short race (although I’ve seen it called a Sprint it is actually much closer to being Olympic,er ugh TRIATHLON, distance) can cheer on those members doing the long race. -hug

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Question:

OK, I may be in big trouble with my landlord (but he does like the homebrew, so maybe I just bribe him with an entire batch). I have your normal, run-of-the-mill electric stove which I used for the first time last weekend to brew a batch in a 5 gallon aluminum pot (I just moved here).  I had read that electric heating elements can cause carmelization, etc., and all of my previous batches have seemed a bit darker than they should be.  Well, someone mentioned using a metal trivet as a spacer, and that I could make one from a coat hanger. I did this, however, when I cranked the heating element up the stove became charred in a perfect circle around the burner corresponding in diamter to that of the brew pot.  Seems like the heat was reflected off of the bottom of the pot onto the stovetop.  I removed the hangar,turned the heat down slightly, and it stopped.   Questions: 1.      Do I need to worry about carmelization of the wort?         -i stir pretty well when I add the extract 2.      Is there anything I can do to help my poor stove? Thanks! — Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://w3.one.net/~triweb

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, I may be in big trouble with my landlord (but he does like the homebrew, so maybe I just bribe him with an entire batch). I have your normal, run-of-the-mill electric stove which I used for the first time last weekend to brew a batch in a 5 gallon aluminum pot (I just moved here).  I had read that electric heating elements can cause carmelization, etc., and all of my previous batches have seemed a bit darker than they should be.  Well, someone mentioned using a metal trivet as a spacer, and that I could make one from a coat hanger. I did this, however, when I cranked the heating element up the stove became charred in a perfect circle around the burner corresponding in diamter to that of the brew pot.  Seems like the heat was reflected off of the bottom of the pot onto the stovetop.  I removed the hangar,turned the heat down slightly, and it stopped.   Questions: 1.    Do I need to worry about carmelization of the wort?   -i stir pretty well when I add the extract 2.    Is there anything I can do to help my poor stove? Thanks! — Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://w3.one.net/~triweb

Don’t use an aluminum brew kettle. An investment in a good heavy stainless steel brewpot is well worth the extra cost.

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1.      Do I need to worry about carmelization of the wort?        -i stir pretty well when I add the extract

Remove your brew pot from the burner and THEN add the malt extract. Stir well and when all is well mixed, place back on the burner. 2.      Is there anything I can do to help my poor stove?

There are burners available made for this type of heating – they are called CANNING elements.  They sit higher up and let heat escape so as not to burn themselves up.  By having the pot in direct contact with the element you should not cause any problems with the element, your pot, or your brew. Brew on!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks! — Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://w3.one.net/~triweb

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OK, I may be in big trouble with my landlord (but he does like the homebrew, so maybe I just bribe him with an entire batch).

you want big trouble with your landlord? have a boil-over on your electric stove! it’ll look like it was hit by the exxon valdez. (obviously from first-hand (bad) experience) jim kramer

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I have your normal, run-of-the-mill electric stove which I used for the first time last weekend to brew a batch in a 5 gallon aluminum pot (I just moved here).  I had read that electric heating elements can cause

carmelization, I have always belived that it was the opposite,- burners could cause caramelization due to the higher heat delivery. Myself, I use an electric stove and have never tried a burner so I have no data to add except that my light colored brews ARE light,- in color that is | I always misspell the | ye   sye yes      yes |  the word ‘paradox’   | ye y  ye yes esye yes

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, I may be in big trouble with my landlord (but he does like the homebrew, so maybe I just bribe him with an entire batch). I have your normal, run-of-the-mill electric stove which I used for the first time last weekend to brew a batch in a 5 gallon aluminum pot (I just moved here).  I had read that electric heating elements can cause carmelization, etc., and all of my previous batches have seemed a bit darker than they should be.  Well, someone mentioned using a metal trivet as a spacer, and that I could make one from a coat hanger. I did this, however, when I cranked the heating element up the stove became charred in a perfect circle around the burner corresponding in diamter to that of the brew pot.  Seems like the heat was reflected off of the bottom of the pot onto the stovetop.  I removed the hangar,turned the heat down slightly, and it stopped.   Questions: 1.    Do I need to worry about carmelization of the wort?   -i stir pretty well when I add the extract 2.    Is there anything I can do to help my poor stove? Thanks! Don’t use an aluminum brew kettle. An investment in a good heavy stainless steel brewpot is well worth the extra cost.

Unfortunately this will do nothing to save your stove.  To keep the stove from discoloring, I cover the entire area under and around the burners with aluminum foil.  Keeps me out of trouble with the wife. Maybe it’s my imagination, but it seems to heat better too. Kent

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Question:

Does anyone know how the Essex Hotel in Chicago rates?  We couldn’t get into the Hyatt…thank you for your help (Sheila)

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Try the Hilton (1-800-hiltons) they have a $95/night rate for Chicago Triathlon participants.  Marriott is $139. Tucker Newberry

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Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Try the Hilton (1-800-hiltons) they have a $95/night rate for Chicago Triathlon participants.  Marriott is $139. Tucker Newberry

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