Although I’ve now pulled the pin I was up until recently training for IMNZ. I had planned on doing a 180+ km ride, up to 200km’s, at least once a week for the last 12 weeks. however after doing a few rides of 150Km I found that if I felt good at 150km’s I would be fine for 180km’s. I then started working at maintaining my strength and consistent pace for 150km’s knowing that I was less likely to loose anything over the last 30 Km’s. I found that doing long rides where I would work on my strength over the last 50km’s were harder than doing a straight slow 180km. The last "long" ride I did I averaged 30-32km/h for first 100 then bumped it up for the next 50km until I noticed I was struggling, i then cruised home concentrating on refreshing myself. I was very confident I could have done a sub 5.30 ride at IMNZ and still felt good for the run. In the old days I had done far too many "long" rides and often paid the price feeling fatigued for my long runs, I have a 180km Pb of 4.58 at IMC yet consistently poor run times, the best run I’ve had at an Ironman was 3.56, an hour slower then my PB for the marathon. Not the best of success. Good luck with your training, Lloyd — Curloo Bicycles web: http://www.curloo.com http://www.deewal.com associate: http://www.elitebicycles.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Guys – I know that Ken does 6+ hour rides for his IM training. I am wondering if any other folks go beyond six hours. Iron Pete? I am most interested in folks with <5:45 IM bike splits (you are my heroes). On a related topic, I am happy to report that my new three strap Carnacs have eliminated the long ride foot pain that I had with my Sidi T1s. Thanks to all of you who responded to my query. gordo
I ONLY DID 2 – 75 MILE RIDES& SEVERAL 60 MILERS AND RODE A 5.46 AT IRONMAN FLA. I FOLLOWED ALL WITH 8-14 MILE RUNS. I JUST DONT HAVE TIME FOR THE REAL LONG STUFF. TIM
I ONLY DID 2 – 75 MILE RIDES& SEVERAL 60 MILERS AND RODE A 5.46 AT IRONMAN FLA. I FOLLOWED ALL WITH 8-14 MILE RUNS. I JUST DONT HAVE TIME FOR THE REAL LONG STUFF. TIM
Okay – question for all the hardcore net junkies out there; do you find yourself actually flinching when you get one of these all-caps ‘yelling’ posts? TriathRon ’sheepish "yes" ‘ Gilcreast
Heh, heh, yeah, some of my close friends call me Buzz Light Year. I have a couple models of him on my desk also. To "Infinity and Beyond" is what it is all about. You seem to be at the level now, 21 hours, where you will find yourself "Amazing". That is a level where you are really ready to "Start Training". You have the base at that level to really progress "to Infinity and Beyond". It’s getting to that level that is tough, from here out it will be easy. Just remember to quit each training session "Wanting to do More".
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gordo, remember, "To Infinity and Beyond", Ken How did you know that Buzz was my hero? I have a small one with karate chop action (home) and a larger "room sentry" version (office). Gifts from people that know me very well. Yes, it can be difficult to explain an eighteen inch Buzz Lightyear in your office but since I took up IM racing, the office gives me a lot of slack. Many thanks to all of you for your thoughts. I am going to bump up the intensity a notch and see what happens. This is a key week in my IMOz run-up. My first journey towards 24 hours of weekly volume. I feel good and am looking forward to the challenge. Last week, I held it together for a little over 21 hours with some intensity and hills thrown it. Threw caution to the wind a little bit and managed to win my first race ever (4-30-4k duathlon). The National Squad was away at a training camp but it felt good. Everyone in town is gearing up for IMNZ and long rides the day before take it out of the competition. Ken, you will be happy to hear that I went out and amazed myself. All the best, gordo
I would like to add another two cents to this. From my own experience, and extended rides, I do not think that the long rides make me any faster. Speed work makes you faster. They (long rides) do cause my body to adapt to the long hours and when I get off after only 112 miles I still feel pretty good instead of spent. When I do less, I am not so willing to go run, either in training or racing.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve done three Ironman’s and before the last one (Ironman Florida) I don’t think I ever went over 100 miles, though I had a good number of 3-4 hour rides and several 2-3 hour rides followed by 30-60 minutes of running. I think that once you have a reasonable endurance base there is little benefit in the super long stuff — it trains you to go at a slower-than-racing pace, and it wears you down. My bike split improved to 5:13 at Ironman Florida (from 5:40 or so at Ironman Australia). Now I need to knock about 15 minutes off my marathon (at IM Florida I was 1:50 through the half and just under 4 hours for the whole thing). I will keep my bike training the same and do some longer bricks. Marshall PS — My average heartrate was 142 during the bike at IMF, I just turned 40 and my AT on the bike is in the high 160s. IMA ‘98 11:29, IMA ‘99 10:48, IMF ‘99 10:28 Hi Guys – I know that Ken does 6+ hour rides for his IM training. I am wondering if any other folks go beyond six hours. Iron Pete? I am most interested in folks with <5:45 IM bike splits (you are my heroes). On a related topic, I am happy to report that my new three strap Carnacs have eliminated the long ride foot pain that I had with my Sidi T1s. Thanks to all of you who responded to my query. gordo
I’ve done three Ironman’s and before the last one (Ironman Florida) I don’t think I ever went over 100 miles, though I had a good number of 3-4 hour rides and several 2-3 hour rides followed by 30-60 minutes of running. I think that once you have a reasonable endurance base there is little benefit in the super long stuff — it trains you to go at a slower-than-racing pace, and it wears you down. My bike split improved to 5:13 at Ironman Florida (from 5:40 or so at Ironman Australia). Now I need to knock about 15 minutes off my marathon (at IM Florida I was 1:50 through the half and just under 4 hours for the whole thing). I will keep my bike training the same and do some longer bricks. Marshall PS — My average heartrate was 142 during the bike at IMF, I just turned 40 and my AT on the bike is in the high 160s. IMA ‘98 11:29, IMA ‘99 10:48, IMF ‘99 10:28 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Guys – I know that Ken does 6+ hour rides for his IM training. I am wondering if any other folks go beyond six hours. Iron Pete? I am most interested in folks with <5:45 IM bike splits (you are my heroes). On a related topic, I am happy to report that my new three strap Carnacs have eliminated the long ride foot pain that I had with my Sidi T1s. Thanks to all of you who responded to my query. gordo
gordo, remember, "To Infinity and Beyond", Ken
How did you know that Buzz was my hero? I have a small one with karate chop action (home) and a larger "room sentry" version (office). Gifts from people that know me very well. Yes, it can be difficult to explain an eighteen inch Buzz Lightyear in your office but since I took up IM racing, the office gives me a lot of slack. Many thanks to all of you for your thoughts. I am going to bump up the intensity a notch and see what happens. This is a key week in my IMOz run-up. My first journey towards 24 hours of weekly volume. I feel good and am looking forward to the challenge. Last week, I held it together for a little over 21 hours with some intensity and hills thrown it. Threw caution to the wind a little bit and managed to win my first race ever (4-30-4k duathlon). The National Squad was away at a training camp but it felt good. Everyone in town is gearing up for IMNZ and long rides the day before take it out of the competition. Ken, you will be happy to hear that I went out and amazed myself. All the best, gordo
Hi Phil, sorry for my english, but I try to explane you what I do. In the first part of my saeson training (dec-febr) I work a lot to improuve my spinning skills: so, once a week I ride 40-50 km with the higest rpm as I can (about 105 of workout average); in the same time I do once a week the SFR climbs. Do you know this workout to improuve the strength? It’s a 3′-5′ minute climb (5-6%) with the great gear (par ex. 53×17) and a slow rpm (35-40) to repete 5-6 time. Then, in the following mounths, I recall during longer workouts both kind of situations. My usual rpm in race is 92-95.
(Mike MacKay) writes: I would like to choose a San Francisco hotel that offers a pleasant, worry-free running environment. We will be spending a few days there this summer. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
The San Remo(s)? Hotel in North Beach is owned by a couple of guys who call themselves "The Running Brothers"; they always advertise in the Northern California Schedule, and that’s where I know of them from. I do know that location, and it happens to be my favorite part of S.F. You’re relatively close to the Wharf, the Marina District, and running should be easy there. ….al w.a. mckay desert research institute reno, nevada
I would like to choose a San Francisco hotel that offers a pleasant, worry-free running environment. We will be spending a few days there this summer. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Mike
– Mike, I stayed last summer with my family at the Marriott in Fisherman’s Wharf area. This hotel was about 1 1/2 miles from the Park/area that runs along the coastline to just under the Golden Gate bridge. Every day I saw scores of runners running along this causeway. It was very flat, but always windy, giving you a workout in one direction, but a good ride in the other. The scenery is beautiful, and there is always something going on to look at. BTW, the hotel is situated very conveniently to the cable system and points of interest. The ferry trip to Alcatraz is worth it (book early!). Good luck. Dave Sargent Gate City Striders BBS Nashua, NH 603-888-5477 Granite Square, a FirstClass BBS, through PostalUnion by I.E. The views expressed in this posting are those of the individual.
I would like to choose a San Francisco hotel that offers a pleasant, worry-free running environment. We will be spending a few days there this summer. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
Stay away from downtown/union square with all the traffic and homeless people. Try the Lombard street area, not too far from the bay coastline and GG Bridge.
I would like to choose a San Francisco hotel that offers a pleasant, worry-free running environment. We will be spending a few days there this summer. Mike
Mike, there are a couple of nice (but fancy) bed and breakfast places near Golden Gate Park, which is a very nice place to run considering that it’s in a city. There is also a very quaint hotel (not cheap either, but very nice) right off the park called the Stanyan Park Hotel. I am not affiliated with this hotel but my parents have stayed there and really like it. There is a mostly dirt bridle path that runs most of the way around the outside of the park and other nice trails running all through it. The park is an interesting place to run. When I first moved here I would run down to the park and just run around at random for a while, getting to know the area. Also, there is a beach at the west end of the park if you like beach running. Enjoy your visit this summer, but expect foggy weather. Cheers, -Chad
I would like to choose a San Francisco hotel that offers a pleasant, worry-free running environment. We will be spending a few days there this summer. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Mike —
I will be in S.F. for 4 days (8-12 Oct) and I’d like to find a place to run. I will be staying in the vicinity of Fishermans wharf and I’d like to be able to run without worrying about where I am. I will have no transportation other than my own feet so it would need to be a round trip from the piers. The longest I’d need is 15-16 miles. Thanks for any help.
As for events…search this website. It has local races. http://www.theschedule.com/index.phtml From Fisherman’s Wharf, you could run along the Embarcadero. It is scenic but the surface is not the best and I personally don’t like running around pedestrians, which you will see a lot of during the day. But a lot of people do it. If you run in the opposite direction from the Wharf, and stay near the water, you will encounter a nice run along the Marina, toward the Golden Gate Bridge. Once you see the Safeway Store, it is about 10-11 miles to the bridge, across the bridge, and back to the Safeway. Have fun! Ernie
I will be in S.F. for 4 days (8-12 Oct) and I’d like to find a place to run. I will be staying in the vicinity of Fishermans wharf and I’d like to be able to run without worrying about where I am. I will have no transportation other than my own feet so it would need to be a round trip from the piers. The longest I’d need is 15-16 miles. Thanks for any help. Craig McVeay
You’re positioned in a great place to run — there are roads and paths along the coast all the way to the Golden Gate Bridge. Enjoy! — Phoenix, Arizona Before you buy.
A last minute change in my plans has me in San Francisco from 8-12 Oct and I need to find a place to run. I will be staying in the vicinity of Fishermans wharf and I won’t have any transportation other than my own feet. If anyone has a few favorites with at least one of them being 15-18 miles, I sure would appreciate it. Also, are there any events scheduled for that time frame? My thanks in advance. Craig McVeay
I will be in S.F. for 4 days (8-12 Oct) and I’d like to find a place to run. I will be staying in the vicinity of Fishermans wharf and I’d like to be able to run without worrying about where I am. I will have no transportation other than my own feet so it would need to be a round trip from the piers. The longest I’d need is 15-16 miles. Thanks for any help. Craig McVeay
If I remember correctly, from the Embarcadero Hyatt, over the Golden Gate and back is 14 miles. (And, on a sunny day, 14 beautiful miles). There are two tricky parts. The foot traffic around Fisherman’s Wharf (go earlier or go a block up from FW) and finding the log stairway/path up to the bridge (the only thing I can say about this is that it’s just before I expect to see it). I have also run from the brewpub (the Beach House?)at the end of big park to the bridge. It’s beautiful, a bit hilly, and there’s a few breaks in the "trail." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be in S.F. for 4 days (8-12 Oct) and I’d like to find a place to run. I will be staying in the vicinity of Fishermans wharf and I’d like to be able to run without worrying about where I am. I will have no transportation other than my own feet so it would need to be a round trip from the piers. The longest I’d need is 15-16 miles. Thanks for any help. Craig McVeay
You can run/hike the shoreline from 3Com/Candlestick Park past the bridges and down the ocean side for 20 miles or more or any segment inbetween. If you are in the downtown hotels, either Market Street to the Embarcadero or Van Ness to aquatic park gives you a minimal number of red light stops. After 10AM the Pier 39 – Fishermans Wharf segment is congested with tourists. There are a couple segmanets along the shoreline blocked by houses and you have to run inland for a few blocks. The Golden Gate Bridge allows running on the east side and is very pretty. You connect up with the grassy hillland on the Marin side of the bridge and run for tens of miles there. There are hills and poison oak there. Before you buy.
YOu will see this thing that International Orange on your left side of Fisherman’s Wharf. It’s really big with two really tall posts and really big wires holding up a road. It’s called The Golden GAte Bridge. Just follow everyone else with San Francisco running clothes.
Hey all, I’ll be in San Francisco for a conference next week and am looking for some good running routes. I’d also like to do a long run of 14-15 miles. I’ll be staying at the Hyatt Embarcadero. What about from downtown across the Golden Gate Bridge into Sausalito?? Would appreciate hearing from you by email if possible. Thanks in advance. Terry
Hey all, I’ll be in San Francisco for a conference next week and am looking for some good running routes. I’d also like to do a long run of 14-15 miles. I’ll be staying at the Hyatt Embarcadero. What about from downtown across the Golden Gate Bridge into Sausalito??
I was in SF two weeks ago staying at the Fairmont on Nob Hill. This is not far from the Hyatt (although it’s quite a bit higher up!) I did a long run that went down to Fisherman’s Wharf and then along the bay to the Golden Gate Bridge. I crossed the bridge and then was going to go back through the Presidio and then back to Nob Hill along California Ave. Would have been about 14 miles if I had done it right. However, the fog rolled in and I got totally lost in all the winding streets of the Presidio. I wound up running closer to 16 miles. Of course, it was so nice and cool running in the fog, I didn’t mind the extra distance. It was a very pleasant run, even with the uphill finish. There is a water fountain in the scenic parking area just northeast of the bridge. Eric Buckley Comsys Millenium Services eMail: remove NoSpam from above Standard disclaimer – I speak for myself and nobody else.
I’ll be in San Francisco for a conference next week and am looking for some good running routes. I’d also like to do a long run of 14-15 miles. I’ll be staying at the Hyatt Embarcadero. What about from downtown across the Golden Gate Bridge into Sausalito?? I was in SF two weeks ago staying at the Fairmont on Nob Hill. This is not far from the Hyatt (although it’s quite a bit higher up!) I did a long run that went down to Fisherman’s Wharf and then along the bay to the Golden Gate Bridge. I crossed the bridge and then was going to go back through the Presidio and then back to Nob Hill along California
The E-Hyatt is close to the shoreline. Just go NE on Market for two blocks, then follow the shoreline for nearly car-free running. There will be some tourist congestion in the vicinity of Fisherman’s Wharf for several blocks. Run all the way along the seashore to the base of the GG bridge, then take one of th trails up to the bridge and cross it.
What about from downtown across the Golden Gate Bridge into Sausalito??
See: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/therun.html Look at the Golden Gate Promenade and Marin Headlands file. There are bike rental stores around there, too. Bike shops on links page. Oh, and bring your wetsuit. (Aquatic Park) http://www.slip.net/~leeway/theswim.html Regards, Lee Lee Rudin San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/
Try this. Park at the Marina Green. Run to the Golden Gate Bridge and across. Fun. At the north end, take the pedestrian/bike walkway <under the bridge. Then cross the parking lot and start out on the Coastal Trail. (Clearly marked.) You’ll go uphill-ish for a mile or so. Take it easy and enjoy the views. Hey, you can go all the way to a cow pasture just south of Olema (38mi). The Marin Headlands are wonderful. Beautiful views of ocean and Bay. Enjoy.
Hey all, I’ll be in San Francisco for a conference next week and am looking for some good running routes. I’d also like to do a long run of 14-15 miles. I’ll be staying at the Hyatt Embarcadero. What about from downtown across the Golden Gate Bridge into Sausalito??
Spent last summer staying at the Marriott at 4th & Market. Good running routes: seaward along Market to the Embarcader, then around to the Golden Gate. Also: a short distance the other direction along Market, to Civic Center, then over to Golden Gate Park. A great feature of SF is the number of hills. You can plan runs to include as many hills as you like in a short distance. Alan Gore | is like giving whiskey and car keys Software For PC’s | to teenaged boys" – P. J. O’Rourke http://www.primenet.com/~agore
Correction: That should have been "Bayward along Market…" Alan Gore | is like giving whiskey and car keys Software For PC’s | to teenaged boys" – P. J. O’Rourke http://www.primenet.com/~agore
: Don’t miss a chance to run across the Golden Gate bridge- seems hokey, but : it’s one of a handfull of runs I’ve remembered over the years! If you can, try to run the bridge early in the AM. Back when I used to live in SF I’d run it at sunrise. That is a gorgeous sight, seeing the sun rise over the city… —
I’m going to be in SF for about 10 days. I’ll be staying at a hotel in the neighborhood of fisherman’s wharf. Any suggestions for good running routes in the area? -Thanks
An excellent run, is right outside your door.Ask for the direction to Ft. Mason, and then ask for the way to the Marina Green, running alongside the Bay is wonderful from the Marina Safeway all the way to the Golden Gate bridge through Crissy field and then back…about six miles, and if there’s no fog, then there’ll probably be no wind. Stay near the water and you’ll see some great looking runners, and the usual extraordinary views, of Alcatraz, Angel Island, The Marine Headlands etc. Harlan
I’m going to be in SF for about 10 days. I’ll be staying at a hotel in the neighborhood of fisherman’s wharf. Any suggestions for good running routes in the area?
One of the beautiful places in the world to run. Follow the coastline west to the GG bridge. You can run across that too. For the more energetic, you can continue into the Marin headlands, or loop around the beaches to GG park and back through the park. Another interesting run is to the top of a hill such as twin peaks. I’d avoid running downtown because of frequent traffic stops, although Van Ness and Market have long green lights.
Don’t miss a chance to run across the Golden Gate bridge- seems hokey, but it’s one of a handfull of runs I’ve remembered over the years!
You’re in the World’s best city for running, the hills not withstanding. "Good" routes are a function of how far you normally run. If 10 miles is not a stretch, the following is a good run: Head to fisherman’s wharf. Turn left (east) and run along the wharf (near the water) past aquatic park ( a cresent shaped path along the water.) Continue over Fort MAson (on your right as you exit aquatic park). Keeping the water on you right, run for another 2.5 – 3 miles to the Golden Gate Bridge. return Via Same route. If you’re not up to ten miles go PAst Fort Mason about .5 miles and return – total run about 2.5 – 3 miles. There are some terrific runs in the Presidio or the Marin Headlands (Across the Golden Gate Bridge), but you’d need to drive to Marin or be willing to do 20 milers – there and back. If you can run 12- 15 miles the presidio is a good run from the wharf, otherwise a drive to the presidio is recommneded Good Luck Rich
I’m going to be in SF for about 10 days. I’ll be staying at a hotel in the neighborhood of fisherman’s wharf. Any suggestions for good running routes in the area? -Thanks
I’ve been there once on a business trip and asked a good friend what his favorite route was. He suggested starting at the Ferry Building and running along the Embarcadero to the Golden Gate Bridge and back. I forget the distance but it’s around 6, 7 miles. Optionally, you can continue over the bridge and go all the way to SanSalito (sp?) and take the ferry back. After doing the shorter run twice during the week, on one Saturday afternoon after my convention was over, I stuck a $20 bill in my sock and did this. I bought food at a deli in this beautiful little town and sat on a bench eating it while I waited for the ferry. It was one of my favorite runs of all time. The ferry ride back takes most of an hour as I remember and has a beautiful view of the harbor. Actually, I couldn’t run the whole distance at that time and had to walk part of it (it’s around 12-14 miles, if I recall correctly and I only recently have worked up to 10 mile runs), but what the heck, it was great! -JohnT. — /* NAME John H. Thompson WORK Dynamics Research Corporation PROJECT OptiQual A/S ADDRESS(4) %WORK 60 Frontage Road Andover MA 01810 OSYS MS_Windows DOS VMS PHONE(2) %WORK 508 475 9090 x2181 HOME 617 246 1336
:This is getting kinky……but very interesting…. :spank me…ouch…yes….again…ouch…repeat : : <shaking head…and we thought you might have gotten all that kinkiness out of : you by perving the women on the beach. : Welcome back. : Mary I bet Doug was lurking, until we put out this kink as a bait. It worked, Jen! How was Maine, Doug? — Oleg
<shaking head…and we thought you might have gotten all that kinkiness out of you by perving the women on the beach.
A few weeks roaming the beach amid the scantily clad merely rekindled what did not need to be restoked. 
Welcome back.
Merci! — Caveat Lector!
I bet Doug was lurking, until we put out this kink as a bait. It worked, Jen!
I’m not telling. You can take the boy off the farm but not the farm out of the boy. How was Maine, Doug?
Run, bike….bike, run… sip a brew…ogle.. nap..burp…eat..burp….ogle.. Need I say more? The Beach to Beacon race was a great experience. I managed to hold a sub 7 pace and keep my drool cup and teeth in place. It’s been nearly two years since I ran a road race. I was just getting my motor running when the finish line showed up. Back to the grind stone… — Caveat Lector!
How was Maine, Doug? Run, bike….bike, run… sip a brew…ogle.. nap..burp…eat..burp….ogle.. Need I say more?
Except for all that biking and running, it sounds like time well spent… Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??
And what she plans on doing with them. <GRIN This is getting kinky……but very interesting…. spank me…ouch…yes….again…ouch…repeat
Ooooh. Whip me, beat me, show me that you care… Mike "Leather and Lycra" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??
lol…Mike Tennant…and here I thought you were the GENTLEMAN of rec.running…HUH? I guess I’m just new here. Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ooooh. Whip me, beat me, show me that you care… Mike "Leather and Lycra" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??
And what she plans on doing with them. <GRIN
This is getting kinky……but very interesting…. spank me…ouch…yes….again…ouch…repeat — Caveat Lector!
This is getting kinky……but very interesting…. spank me…ouch…yes….again…ouch…repeat
<shaking head…and we thought you might have gotten all that kinkiness out of you by perving the women on the beach. Welcome back. Mary
+ one nurse standing there with charges paddles in case of defib (a real confidence builder).
Yikes! One look at those and I’m history. Mike "VO2 Max? Who cares? Don’t come near me with those paddles" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??
: + one nurse standing there :with charges paddles in case of defib (a real confidence builder). : : Yikes! One look at those and I’m history. : Mike "VO2 Max? Who cares? Don’t come near me with those paddles" Depends on the nurse of course… — Oleg
And what she plans on doing with them. <GRIN Mark — Life is the great experiment. Each of us is an experiment of one-observer and subject-making choices, living with them, recording the effects. - Dr. George Sheehan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : + one nurse standing there :with charges paddles in case of defib (a real confidence builder). : : Yikes! One look at those and I’m history. : Mike "VO2 Max? Who cares? Don’t come near me with those paddles" Depends on the nurse of course… — Oleg
: There seemed to be a recent NG interest in VO2 max. I’m taking a 3rd and : final : stress test and VO2 test in three months. While I understand a test is quite : expensive, if you are interested in knowing interesting and irrelevant data, : hospitals and universities are frequently seeking test subjects for research : studies or clinical trials. U of South Carolina for one has a Kinesiology : department that does frequent VO2 max testing and often requires volunteers. : : Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air : Can anyone clue me in as to how much these tests cost? I’d guess that : stress tests, being much more common than VO2 max tests, would be the : less expensive of the two. And also, what are the best places to go : for such a test? I suppose some types of institutions would be better : suited to providing stress testing tailored for athletes rather than : at-risk patients. : Thanks for any ideas and input. : AD LacTest cost only $30 or smth http://www.runningnetwork.com/rn_display.phtml?id=7432 — Oleg
[It's not the heat it's the humidity snipped] Yesterday was my long ride – 50 miles in 90+. Saturday I struggled through a 10 mile run at mid-day. 10 weeks until my next ironman: 7 weeks of hell and then 3 weeks of taper.
Makes me glad I swim like a brick: no possibility of triathlon torture. All I have to do is run a bit, kick back, eat chocolates and watch Iron folks torture themselves. Jennifer – "Pedal Faster!!! Only 7 weeks." Ah…raspberry filled. "I said FASTER!!"
Looks like things are progressing! A true track fanatic, if I ever saw one!
The track is going well; better than the LSD. I might try some master’s mile races this fall. Starting to crack 79 in the repetitive quarters. Contrary to the press reports, my Wed. evening ’sudden knee pain’ that lasted 3 days has not knocked me out of the race 
. I took my own recent advice (funny how that happens)
Gremblins! They exist and they cause mystery knee pain and shin splints. I’ve seen them on the side of the road before-not a pretty sight. and rested/treated the knee for 4 days.
Whimp…no pain no gain. Now, back to ‘work’ 65 degrees and too many yellow leaves in the back yard…
Jennifer – don’t eat yellow [leaves or] snow (Frank Zappa?)
Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air
Bah. In Georgia there’s a hint of, uh, summer in the air. At 7:00 a.m, the humidity was 100% (Weather Channel.) Yesterday was my long ride – 50 miles in 90+. Saturday I struggled through a 10 mile run at mid-day. 10 weeks until my next ironman: 7 weeks of hell and then 3 weeks of taper. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??
As to VO2 tests – I wonder what kind of variations you got those 3 times you took it? And what;s the advertised error margins?
Don’t know what the margin for error is, but the "relative" VO2 was 51, 57, 55 for June, July and Aug, respectively. The testers told me that the clinical studies involving aerobic testing are one of the more difficult clinical studies to duplicate: much variability between dates and subjects. Jennifer
Can anyone clue me in as to how much these tests cost?
Someone in an earlier post claimed a cost of $300 – $400: a half hour test, 2 technicians running the test + cost of equipment + one nurse standing there with charges paddles in case of defib (a real confidence builder). I’d guess that stress tests, being much more common than VO2 max tests, would be the less expensive of the two. And also, what are the best places to go for such a test? I suppose some types of institutions would be better suited to providing stress testing tailored for athletes rather than at-risk patients.
At medical schools (Tufts for example) the bulletin boards generally have clinical trials posted and seek volunteers. That’s where I have gone to find interesting testing: i.e. cholesterol studies, endurance studies. They have all the necessary equipment and skills. The VO2 max testing, as opposed to just the stress test requires additional equipment, and Kinesiology Departments at large universities are equiped to test. Jennifer – irrelevant physiological data ‘R us
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mon -0- Tues 4 slow jogging Wed .5 warm up then [400m; 600m; 600m; 200] x 3; 3.1 cool down (total around 9.0 miles) Thurs -0- Fri 5.8 mod Sat 5 mod Sun 12.9 in racing flat (oooooo…magic shoes!). Low mile recuperating week, but with some good track work to make life interesting. There seemed to be a recent NG interest in VO2 max. I’m taking a 3rd and final stress test and VO2 test in three months. While I understand a test is quite expensive, if you are interested in knowing interesting and irrelevant data, hospitals and universities are frequently seeking test subjects for research studies or clinical trials. U of South Carolina for one has a Kinesiology department that does frequent VO2 max testing and often requires volunteers. Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air
Looks like things are progressing! A true track fanatic, if I ever saw one! Contrary to the press reports, my Wed. evening ’sudden knee pain’ that lasted 3 days has not knocked me out of the race . I took my own recent advice (funny how that happens) and rested/treated the knee for 4 days. Now, back to ‘work’ 65 degrees and too many yellow leaves in the back yard… — … tramps like us, Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
: Low mile recuperating week, but with some good track work to make life : interesting. I’d rather do 2 track workouts a week with 15 miles a week than run 70 miles per week and no speed. As to VO2 tests – I wonder what kind of variations you got those 3 times you took it? And what;s the advertised error margins? In any case, LT would be a much interesting number to take a look at. : stress test and VO2 test in three months. While I understand a test is quite : expensive, if you are interested in knowing interesting and irrelevant data, : hospitals and universities are frequently seeking test subjects for research : studies or clinical trials. U of South Carolina for one has a Kinesiology : department that does frequent VO2 max testing and often requires volunteers. : Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air — Oleg
There seemed to be a recent NG interest in VO2 max. I’m taking a 3rd and final stress test and VO2 test in three months. While I understand a test is quite expensive, if you are interested in knowing interesting and irrelevant data, hospitals and universities are frequently seeking test subjects for research studies or clinical trials. U of South Carolina for one has a Kinesiology department that does frequent VO2 max testing and often requires volunteers. Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air
Can anyone clue me in as to how much these tests cost? I’d guess that stress tests, being much more common than VO2 max tests, would be the less expensive of the two. And also, what are the best places to go for such a test? I suppose some types of institutions would be better suited to providing stress testing tailored for athletes rather than at-risk patients. Thanks for any ideas and input. AD
Mon -0- Tues 4 slow jogging Wed .5 warm up then [400m; 600m; 600m; 200] x 3; 3.1 cool down (total around 9.0 miles) Thurs -0- Fri 5.8 mod Sat 5 mod Sun 12.9 in racing flat (oooooo…magic shoes!). Low mile recuperating week, but with some good track work to make life interesting. There seemed to be a recent NG interest in VO2 max. I’m taking a 3rd and final stress test and VO2 test in three months. While I understand a test is quite expensive, if you are interested in knowing interesting and irrelevant data, hospitals and universities are frequently seeking test subjects for research studies or clinical trials. U of South Carolina for one has a Kinesiology department that does frequent VO2 max testing and often requires volunteers. Jennifer – and in New England there’s a hint of autumn in the air
Try Roy Benson’s "The Runner’s Coach" It is real helpful on incorporating a HRM into a structured running program. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know a Sally someone has written a book on Heart Rate Monitors, but I’m wondering if any of you can give suggestions on what books are good ones to read about heart rates and HRMs. I hear a lot of conflicting information (not on this newgroup, but on the cycling and the triathlon newsgroups) about heart rates and HRMs. Thanks, Conal – Conal Ho Graduate Student 337 Social Sciences I Department of Anthropology; University of California–Santa Cruz
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again; I think the Sally Edwards book is terrible! It’s all smiley, smiley, happy, happy, jump up and downey style irritates me no end, and the amount of information contained in it is negligible. The Training Pulse and Lactate is interesting and has a lot more info., but you need to read it with the knowledge that the Conconi test is neither as simple, nor as reliable, nor as based in science as Mr. Jansen would have us believe. Sorry I haven’t got a good one to recommend; I can’t say I’ve really read one! — Rod. Discoveries are made every 15 years. Yours is particularly good; it hasn’t been made for 150 years. "The Doctors Dilemma" GB Shaw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do very strongly recommend the books by exercise physiologist and world class endurance athlete Sally Edwards. All of Sally’s books are founded on sports science research and presented in a user friendly manner. Her books are progressive in nature with the first, The Heart Monitor Book, geared for those who need to know more about the monitor itself and are just trying to get started. It was originally written for Polar. The second is called Heart Zone Training. It takes you the next step into developing a personalized training program based upon your individualized goals.It is logical in its approach and should help you get moving and stay moving. The tird is Smart Heart, a work in progress in that as research brings new things to light, the book will be updated. It is for advanced training and those who are ready for more technical physiological information. There are other good books such as Training the Lactate Pulse Rate, very technical, which are terrific to add to ones understanding of why training with a HRM is so valuable and in many ways easier. You can manage you can monitor. Learn from other coaching/training books and adapt workouts etc. to the HRM. Its quite easy. Instead of time pace, us HR pace for the proper intensity. Good luck and keep reading. We are students for life. Bill Stainbrook physical educator, endurance athlete and Heart Zone Educator
Give this one a try, "Heart Monitor Training for the Compleat Idiot", 2nd edition, by John L. Parker Jr. It’s a pretty good book and it convinced me to get a hrm. …Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know a Sally someone has written a book on Heart Rate Monitors, but I’m wondering if any of you can give suggestions on what books are good ones to read about heart rates and HRMs. I hear a lot of conflicting information (not on this newgroup, but on the cycling and the triathlon newsgroups) about heart rates and HRMs. Thanks, Conal – Conal Ho Graduate Student 337 Social Sciences I Department of Anthropology; University of California–Santa Cruz
I do very strongly recommend the books by exercise physiologist and world class endurance athlete Sally Edwards. All of Sally’s books are founded on sports science research and presented in a user friendly manner. Her books are progressive in nature with the first, The Heart Monitor Book, geared for those who need to know more about the monitor itself and are just trying to get started. It was originally written for Polar. The second is called Heart Zone Training. It takes you the next step into developing a personalized training program based upon your individualized goals.It is logical in its approach and should help you get moving and stay moving. The tird is Smart Heart, a work in progress in that as research brings new things to light, the book will be updated. It is for advanced training and those who are ready for more technical physiological information. There are other good books such as Training the Lactate Pulse Rate, very technical, which are terrific to add to ones understanding of why training with a HRM is so valuable and in many ways easier. You can manage you can monitor. Learn from other coaching/training books and adapt workouts etc. to the HRM. Its quite easy. Instead of time pace, us HR pace for the proper intensity. Good luck and keep reading. We are students for life. Bill Stainbrook physical educator, endurance athlete and Heart Zone Educator
I know a Sally someone has written a book on Heart Rate Monitors, but I’m wondering if any of you can give suggestions on what books are good ones to read about heart rates and HRMs. I hear a lot of conflicting information (not on this newgroup, but on the cycling and the triathlon newsgroups) about heart rates and HRMs. Thanks, Conal – Conal Ho Graduate Student 337 Social Sciences I Department of Anthropology; University of California–Santa Cruz
And this highly intelligent, common sensical, and rational approach is the reason why, ladies and gentlemen, this man is on his way to Kona in 12 days. One of the keys of a solid performance in triathlon is flexibility in the face of unpredictable conditions, especially in a race as long as Ironman. Those who exhibit this flexibility and are always prepared to formulate and fall back upon a "Plan B" are the ones who will get the most out of the sport, whether their goal is high-performance or simply finishing with a smile.
Amen. But I think I was down to around Plan "G" by the time I finished IMC. I often wonder how folks do an IM in their second year of racing. For me, all the experience I’d gained in 15 years of running and doing tri’s came into play at IMC. I don’t think if I could have finished w/o it. 1) In T2, I felt like dead meat, but my legs were steady. That told me (from experience) that it was more a digestive thing, rather than muscle fatigue. 2) It wasn’t the worst I’d ever felt and finished a race. The stakes were a bit higher and the distance looming longer, but I’d been in worse shape. 3) Once I got out, I had a good a handle on what I could manage as a pace – when to walk, etc, considering how bad I felt. Again, this was from having done a few "survival shuffles" and enduring. 4) When my knee started going south I didn’t panic, but used experience to figure out what I needed to do to survive it. W/O the previous experiences which gave me something to fall back on for Plans A, B, C, D, E, and F, I would not have finished. Mike "And I did finish with a smile" Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03
Having read all the IMC reports, the most common problem experienced by everyone it would seem was the lack of salt intake. I’m competing in the GFT this year and not coming from a country renouned for its exceptionally good weather (we get horizontal & vertical rain) don’t need or use salt tables during training. My question to all you Ironman vets is. Should I start using them in preparation for GFT or would I be better to wait until the day and see how it goes, I know the don’t use it on race day if you havn’t tried it before thing, but I’ve also been told not to use extra salt if your body doesn’t need it as this can cause just as many problems. Thanks
Iain: Use ‘em now. Never do anything different on race day. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1.The dryness of the air in the Okanagan – This contributes significantly to the dehydration problem because people are sweating but it’s so dry and windy that it does not even bead up on their skin. Thus they can be be down a few pints and not even know it. Good point, and the dry air complicates things a bit more. Lungs require air to be a minimum humidity. I don’t know what it is exactly, but it’s probably quite high (90-95%, perhaps higher). Air entering the lungs gets moisturized which removes moisture from the body but, unfortunately, the moisure is not recovered when you exhale. Although dry air feels more comfortable and sweating is more efficient, i.e., it evaporates faster and therefore cools more, humid air might be better for the long term. When it’s humid and you’re exerting, you sweat profusely and this reminds you to drink (and you don’t lose as much water breathing). It might not be so obvious in dry, windy conditions (or on a bike) when you might not be conscious how much water you’ve lost by breathing. The human thirst mechanism is a funny thing. We’ve probably all learned to drink before you feel thirsty during endurance events because if you feel thirsty it may be too late. Why is that? Well, according to my sources, the thirst mechanism, a brain stem function, is supressed by larger cortex in the developed human brain. Other animals respond to thirst sooner since there isn’t so much distraction. See, you knew there was a reason. Doug Fuller As Rick says, "Take what you need and leave the rest."
I told a friend of mine that I was planning to eat pretzels throughout the race at IMC. He asked if it was hard to eat and if it dried out my mouth, and before I could answer he said that it would probably make me drink more during the event. I planned to eat the pretzels mainly for the sodium, but it definitely made me thirsty, so I drank. In fact, I had to pit stop (I have not mastered, nor do I want to, the art of peeing off the bike) 3 times on the bike. Just a thought to trick your mind into thinking that you are thirsty. – Andy Tumpowsky
Iain, St Pete Mad Dogs tri club have an aid station at the end of each loop around the lake. They have chicken soup ! Yes, I know it sounds gross, but I reckon it has plenty of salt in it and in fact tastes great at the time. That may be enough to maintain what you’ve lost throughout the day. I would think the RaceDay drink has some sodium in it too. There is no question you lose it – just check out your bike shorts as you take them off, they’ll have dried salt all around the waist ! Cheers Barry t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having read all the IMC reports, the most common problem experienced by everyone it would seem was the lack of salt intake. I’m competing in the GFT this year and not coming from a country renouned for its exceptionally good weather (we get horizontal & vertical rain) don’t need or use salt tables during training. My question to all you Ironman vets is. Should I start using them in preparation for GFT or would I be better to wait until the day and see how it goes, I know the don’t use it on race day if you havn’t tried it before thing, but I’ve also been told not to use extra salt if your body doesn’t need it as this can cause just as many problems. Thanks Iain: Use ‘em now. Never do anything different on race day. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03
I would agree that the best race plans are set in a solid foundation of data (gathered and robbed <g), married to real experience and tested under anticipated conditions "at pace" on similar geography. However, in the fluid environment of the race you must allow yourself *absolute* permission to modify that plan *immediatley* based upon reliable, field tested experience. This requires experience in varied environmental conditions and states of nutrition/hydration (or lack thereof) for the given distance and geography.
And this highly intelligent, common sensical, and rational approach is the reason why, ladies and gentlemen, this man is on his way to Kona in 12 days. One of the keys of a solid performance in triathlon is flexibility in the face of unpredictable conditions, especially in a race as long as Ironman. Those who exhibit this flexibility and are always prepared to formulate and fall back upon a "Plan B" are the ones who will get the most out of the sport, whether their goal is high-performance or simply finishing with a smile. Hey, ya can’t argue with success. Now let’s see how Studmuffin tears up the lava! Meanwhile, Slugmuffin here will be bringing up the rear with an idiotic grin plastered all over her silly pan. WOOHOOO!! See ya at the United terminal at SFO in 12 days, Joe! Tri-Baby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie
1.The dryness of the air in the Okanagan – <snip
Good point, and the dry air complicates things a bit more. <snip
And I add… Excellent points from both Steve and Doug and I agree with every one. The only twist in this is that, according to some locals, the air was "unusually humid" in Penticton and the area on race day this year. Of course, "unusually humid" in Okanagan terms probably means 25% relative humidity instead of 10%. Both are still low by east coast standards, but being very sensitive to dry air (a.k.a. I get nose bleeds in dry air) I found the air easier to breathe than previous "dry" years. -Rolf — I am Iron Mac… …a student of Ironman, ever learning… …about having faith. IMC’94/14:07 IMC’95/11:59 IMC’97/12:12 IMC’98/14:02
1.The dryness of the air in the Okanagan – This contributes significantly to the dehydration problem because people are sweating but it’s so dry and windy that it does not even bead up on their skin. Thus they can be be down a few pints and not even know it.
Good point, and the dry air complicates things a bit more. Lungs require air to be a minimum humidity. I don’t know what it is exactly, but it’s probably quite high (90-95%, perhaps higher). Air entering the lungs gets moisturized which removes moisture from the body but, unfortunately, the moisure is not recovered when you exhale. Although dry air feels more comfortable and sweating is more efficient, i.e., it evaporates faster and therefore cools more, humid air might be better for the long term. When it’s humid and you’re exerting, you sweat profusely and this reminds you to drink (and you don’t lose as much water breathing). It might not be so obvious in dry, windy conditions (or on a bike) when you might not be conscious how much water you’ve lost by breathing. The human thirst mechanism is a funny thing. We’ve probably all learned to drink before you feel thirsty during endurance events because if you feel thirsty it may be too late. Why is that? Well, according to my sources, the thirst mechanism, a brain stem function, is supressed by larger cortex in the developed human brain. Other animals respond to thirst sooner since there isn’t so much distraction. See, you knew there was a reason. Doug Fuller As Rick says, "Take what you need and leave the rest."
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having read all the IMC reports, the most common problem experienced by everyone it would seem was the lack of salt intake. I’m competing in the GFT this year and not coming from a country renouned for its exceptionally good weather (we get horizontal & vertical rain) don’t need or use salt tables during training. My question to all you Ironman vets is. Should I start using them in preparation for GFT or would I be better to wait until the day and see how it goes, I know the don’t use it on race day if you havn’t tried it before thing, but I’ve also been told not to use extra salt if your body doesn’t need it as this can cause just as many problems. Thanks Iain Sim. Ayrodynamics, Scotland. There is no limit out there
Several IM vets recommend Succeed! caplets rather than plain salt. I was one of those who experienced problems at IMC and probably would have benefited from taking them. I train in heat all the time and know it’s dangers. However, I had never raced in it for more than 8 hours. I started having real problems around the 9 hour mark. Not a co-incidence. Mike "But I learned a lesson" Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03
The conditions were not worse than descriptions I’ve heard of Kona. But they were much worse than people were assuming they would be. In Hawaii, everyone expects the conditions to be brutal, and they build their race plan around that fact. In Canada, everyone was assuming great weather and thinking PR until about halfway through the bike leg, and they seemed genuinely surprised to be facing meltdown. The best performances seemed to come from those people who stayed with their race plan and didn’t let themselves get sucked in by the good conditions in the first part of the day.
Hi Rick, Forgot to send this . . . I would agree that the best race plans are set in a solid foundation of data (gathered and robbed <g), married to real experience and tested under anticipated conditions "at pace" on similar geography. However, in the fluid environment of the race you must allow yourself *absolute* permission to modify that plan *immediatley* based upon reliable, field tested experience. This requires experience in varied environmental conditions and states of nutrition/hydration (or lack thereof) for the given distance and geography. I feel this is where many went wrong. Being fairly new to Triathlon I dedicate portions of my training to this pursuit. FWIW: In my IMC ‘98 race plan I had programed a 3:25 Marathon. I had tested this many times and knew it to be obtainable if the weather was mild and I came off the bike in good shape. Though my bike split was in the minimum acceptable range (due to the winds) I did feel very good. On course, I stayed on 3:25 pace until I determined that conditions were much hotter than I had anticipated and to continue at 3:25 pace would spell "meltdown." At mile 10 I performed major surgery on plan "1" and invented plan "2." Plan 2 was based on my experience running 22 miles sessions, on similar terrain, in 100+ heat, several times in the build phase for IMC. This meant adding huge amounts of time to my p/m/m splits to hydrate *and* cool at each aid station. My 2nd "Tom Price Cocktail" for the run, a foundation in my prerace nutrition plan (collected at special needs), was tossed to focus on Coke and H20 with occasional Allsport only stops – my stomach being the guide. I was drinking 3-4 cups at each station after mile 14 and reduced to 2 cups after mile 22. "3:25" was also tossed without a second thought or care. Running as fast as I could between aid stations and a "just as serious as running" focus on fluids and cooling became the plan 2. Net: 3:40 marathon – of which I am most proud despite it being slower than ‘97. Likewise, if it had been cool or cold I had similar base-line experience that would have caused me to reduce my fluid intake and chase a negative Marathon split. Good Training, Good Racing, Joe Joseph C. Foster .. . . and of course I train hard, very hard. – T. Hellreigel
I have used Thermotabs (buffered salt tablets) for every moderately hot to hot race for the last 3 yrs. I have never had any stomach or other problems. My wife uses them. We have recommended them to friends that have never had any problems, at least a dozen people. I only use them if I will be racing or training for over about 3 hrs. I don’t ‘load’ them. I start taking them a couple of hours into the event. I usually take one tablet every 1-2 hrs depending on the heat. I have had the opportunity to train w/ them on hot days, unsure what your best bet is if you are from a cooler clime such as Scotland. Good Luck to all, andy
Iain: I’m an ironvirgin myself but… I would try them out in training. Sure, your body won’t *use* them like in Florida, but you can at least get a feeling for how your body reacts… Kevin Mitchell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Having read all the IMC reports, the most common problem experienced by everyone it would seem was the lack of salt intake. I’m competing in the GFT this year and not coming from a country renouned for its exceptionally good weather (we get horizontal & vertical rain) don’t need or use salt tables during training. My question to all you Ironman vets is. Should I start using them in preparation for GFT or would I be better to wait until the day and see how it goes, I know the don’t use it on race day if you havn’t tried it before thing, but I’ve also been told not to use extra salt if your body doesn’t need it as this can cause just as many problems. Thanks Iain Sim. Ayrodynamics, Scotland. There is no limit out there
Rick, You made some good points here. As a six time finisher and first time observer of the race this year I thought that I would add the following: 1.The dryness of the air in the Okanagan – This contributes significantly to the dehydration problem because people are sweating but it’s so dry and windy that it does not even bead up on their skin. Thus they can be be down a few pints and not even know it. 2. The good year followed by the bad year scenerio. It happens at IMC and at IMH. After a relativly "easy" year like 1997 at IMC( cool, wet not too windy. ideal conditions actually) 1998 comes along. People who did the race the previous year come back with some expectations of a certain(perhaps, faster) time. However, on a day like IMC this year time goels go out the window. Bustos went almost an hour slower than his fastest time ever over an Ironman race. The people that did "well" were experienced vets who made the mental adjustment early on in the day to just grind it out and not worry about time and first timers who tend to race conservetivley right from the start. Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My outside observor’s read of the problems at IMC were a little different. That morning, and most of the previous day, everyone was talking about how great the weather was. So, they took the great weather for granted. The morning was cool but not cold, and everyone would have felt wonderful in the cool air coming out of the water. Those who thought they’d be cold weren’t, and nobody was expecting monster heat. They hopped on the bike and took off, extrapolating the current conditions to the rest of the day. They went fast, spent a lot of energy, and then WHAMMO! the heat and wind came all at once. Because the sun was intense but the air fairly cool (until about noon), people did not realize how much they were sweating, and how hot they were becoming. In Penticton, the air was very comfortable in the shade, but the heat was intense in the sun. The difference was profound. So, many had already spent much of their reserves when the heat and wind became a visible factor, and they were already starting to shut down. The conditions were not worse than descriptions I’ve heard of Kona. But they were much worse than people were assuming they would be. In Hawaii, everyone expects the conditions to be brutal, and they build their race plan around that fact. In Canada, everyone was assuming great weather and thinking PR until about halfway through the bike leg, and they seemed genuinely surprised to be facing meltdown. The best performances seemed to come from those people who stayed with their race plan and didn’t let themselves get sucked in by the good conditions in the first part of the day. For example, Mike Tennant’s description of the race was very similar to how he had described his intentions before the race. His target time was 16 hours, and he finished very close to that target. When it’s my turn, I hope I have that kind of good sense. But if my major bonk the following weekend on a fairly short bike ride is any evidence, I’ll probably do the same thing. Armchair analysis sure is easy, isn’t it? Remember this is just one man’s opinion with but only one IM under his belt, but I think this is where the trouble may begin. As I read many of the race reports, it seems as though the people who have competed at IMC before, come back for more than just the great views, and the great volunteers (don’t get me wrong, this is the only excuse anyone needs), but they come back to try to better their time from year’s past. I know that after I finished, I thought I could have gone a little faster on the run. When you bring the "time factor" into play, the vital signs
Rick, I think your arm chair analysis of what went wrong for alot of folks was probably right on the money. You know, I did the race in the year before, when it was so cold and wet, and being the cynic that I am, I figured that Pentiction was due for high heat this year. Also, had hear horror stories of how hot IMC was in ‘96, so with that in mind….. So, I paid close attention to good ‘ol Weather Channel and noted in July that B.C. was experiencing record heat. That got me more than enough motivated to train at noon in our steamy heat and humidity in Illinois throughout the summer. My buddies and I did our long rides followed by runs at 2:00 p.m. in the afternoon on the weekends. We would start our bikes early, at 6:00 a.m., in the cool of the morning, but by the time we finished around 12:30 -1:00, it was very hot. So we ran in the heat and our bodies were used to that experience of running in the warmest part of the day. Yes, I was also hot on the bike, but the marathon didn’t seem all that bad. Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My outside observor’s read of the problems at IMC were a little different. That morning, and most of the previous day, everyone was talking about how great the weather was. So, they took the great weather for granted. The morning was cool but not cold, and everyone would have felt wonderful in the cool air coming out of the water. Those who thought they’d be cold weren’t, and nobody was expecting monster heat. They hopped on the bike and took off, extrapolating the current conditions to the rest of the day. They went fast, spent a lot of energy, and then WHAMMO! the heat and wind came all at once. Because the sun was intense but the air fairly cool (until about noon), people did not realize how much they were sweating, and how hot they were becoming. In Penticton, the air was very comfortable in the shade, but the heat was intense in the sun. The difference was profound. So, many had already spent much of their reserves when the heat and wind became a visible factor, and they were already starting to shut down. The conditions were not worse than descriptions I’ve heard of Kona. But they were much worse than people were assuming they would be. In Hawaii, everyone expects the conditions to be brutal, and they build their race plan around that fact. In Canada, everyone was assuming great weather and thinking PR until about halfway through the bike leg, and they seemed genuinely surprised to be facing meltdown. The best performances seemed to come from those people who stayed with their race plan and didn’t let themselves get sucked in by the good conditions in the first part of the day. For example, Mike Tennant’s description of the race was very similar to how he had described his intentions before the race. His target time was 16 hours, and he finished very close to that target. When it’s my turn, I hope I have that kind of good sense. But if my major bonk the following weekend on a fairly short bike ride is any evidence, I’ll probably do the same thing. Armchair analysis sure is easy, isn’t it? Remember this is just one man’s opinion with but only one IM under his belt, but I think this is where the trouble may begin. As I read many of the race reports, it seems as though the people who have competed at IMC before, come back for more than just the great views, and the great volunteers (don’t get me wrong, this is the only excuse anyone needs), but they come back to try to better their time from year’s past. I know that after I finished, I thought I could have gone a little faster on the run. When you bring the "time factor" into play, the vital signs take a back seat. And why not, you have competed in and completed this race before and exceeded your expectations, why should this be any different? Its different because its a new day, with new conditions. I do not recall who said this, but I heard it for the first time on this news group, so I will echo it now. Never underestimate the Ironman! Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.
Iain, You must absolutely try salt tablets before the race because they are known to give a good percentage of people intestinal problems. I am one of them and would take cramping in my leg for 22 miles over cramping in my intestines *and* other related problems (ahem) any day. What I’m going to do for GFT (yes, IMC has turned me into an Ironaddict) is to have a water bottle on the bike filled with a strong saltwater solution. Every time I fill my Jetstream with sport drink, I will top it off with some of the saltwater solution. This will allow me to modulate the amount of sodium in relation to the conditions. I will also have a small water bottle with saltwater and chicken broth (for palatability) in my bike-to-run transition bag and three in my run special needs bag (you have access to it each of your three laps around the lake). This way, I can continue to keep my sodium intake up throughout the race without needing salt tablets. I hope this helps. Cameron — The search to find our limits leads us to our strengths.
My outside observor’s read of the problems at IMC were a little different. That morning, and most of the previous day, everyone was talking about how great the weather was. So, they took the great weather for granted. The morning was cool but not cold, and everyone would have felt wonderful in the cool air coming out of the water. Those who thought they’d be cold weren’t, and nobody was expecting monster heat. They hopped on the bike and took off, extrapolating the current conditions to the rest of the day. They went fast, spent a lot of energy, and then WHAMMO! the heat and wind came all at once. Because the sun was intense but the air fairly cool (until about noon), people did not realize how much they were sweating, and how hot they were becoming. In Penticton, the air was very comfortable in the shade, but the heat was intense in the sun. The difference was profound. So, many had already spent much of their reserves when the heat and wind became a visible factor, and they were already starting to shut down. The conditions were not worse than descriptions I’ve heard of Kona. But they were much worse than people were assuming they would be. In Hawaii, everyone expects the conditions to be brutal, and they build their race plan around that fact. In Canada, everyone was assuming great weather and thinking PR until about halfway through the bike leg, and they seemed genuinely surprised to be facing meltdown. The best performances seemed to come from those people who stayed with their race plan and didn’t let themselves get sucked in by the good conditions in the first part of the day. For example, Mike Tennant’s description of the race was very similar to how he had described his intentions before the race. His target time was 16 hours, and he finished very close to that target. When it’s my turn, I hope I have that kind of good sense. But if my major bonk the following weekend on a fairly short bike ride is any evidence, I’ll probably do the same thing. Armchair analysis sure is easy, isn’t it? Remember this is just one man’s opinion with but only one IM under his belt, but I think this is where the trouble may begin. As I read many of the race reports, it seems as though the people who have competed at IMC before, come back for more than just the great views, and the great volunteers (don’t get me wrong, this is the only excuse anyone needs), but they come back to try to better their time from year’s past. I know that after I finished, I thought I could have gone a little faster on the run. When you bring the "time factor" into play, the vital signs take a back seat. And why not, you have competed in and completed this race before and exceeded your expectations, why should this be any different? Its different because its a new day, with new conditions. I do not recall who said this, but I heard it for the first time on this news group, so I will echo it now. Never underestimate the Ironman!
Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.
Having read all the IMC reports, the most common problem experienced by everyone it would seem was the lack of salt intake. I’m competing in the GFT this year and not coming from a country renouned for its exceptionally good weather (we get horizontal & vertical rain) don’t need or use salt tables during training. My question to all you Ironman vets is. Should I start using them in preparation for GFT or would I be better to wait until the day and see how it goes, I know the don’t use it on race day if you havn’t tried it before thing, but I’ve also been told not to use extra salt if your body doesn’t need it as this can cause just as many problems. Thanks Iain Sim. Ayrodynamics, Scotland. There is no limit out there
Conditions were tough this year at IMC, but I wanted to touch BRIEFLY in a few positives I had this year.
Conditions were bad I guess according to all the reports, it was my first time at IMC and my first Ironman so it is hard to tell. Frankly, I had a great race and great experience. Did not have any problems with the heat, in fact, it’s a lot hotter here in middle Georgia and when I started the run at 3:30 I thought to my self that it felt pretty good, kind of cool even. My time was 13:08 and I’m proud of it. If conditions were so bad, I guess next year I can whack off an hour or two. No offense to all that had bad experiences but it’s time to take stock of what went wrong and plan to apply it next year so it will not happen again. For me, the conditions were fine. I did not know what to expect and accepted what I got and dealt with it. Did I like the wind? No. In fact, hell no. Did I struggle up the Yellow Lake climb? Sure I did and the rest of the way on the bike too. I hated my bike by the time I pulled into transition. Was the run fun? It sure was! I was prepared for heat, had my Succeed! caps and trained during the day in Georgia when he temps were 90 to 95 and the humidity was 70+ percent (its like that all summer where I live) I was prepared with nutrition that I had trained with all summer, Succeed! Clip, passed up all the Allsport, and did not have any stomach problems. Might I have problems in the future, who knows? But what I know from triathlon is that you get what you put into it. You have to deal with what you are given and make conscious decisions all the time to account for it. We knew it was going to be hot. We knew the swim was 2.4 miles, the bike 112 miles, the run 26.2 miles. We knew that the wind could really blow. In the back of each of our minds, in the deep subconsious of that thing we call a brain, we knew if we were prepared or not. Personnally, I felt prepared for 12 to 13 hours but really had no idea. I know after this race that I have to work on my bike riding strength. I ran out of gas at 75 miles. It wasn’t the heat, it wasn’t the food, it wasn’t my stomach…it was because I did not spend enough time riding my bike. I look forward to next year, hot, cold, windy, sheep, bears, hills, flats, whatever. bring ‘em on. Rolf, these comments are not directed at you at all, just at the subject line. gil gilliland milledgeville, ga
Gil, My experiences were very similar to yours. IMC was my first IM and I finished in 12:44. I knew the heat was going to be a factor and I think I took the proper precautions. For me that meant take it S – L – O – W. I also had a good nutritional plan. On the bike I had PR Bars, pretzels, and MET-RX ORS. After I finished my water bottles filled with ORS, I would grab water from the aid stations and drop in the ORS mix, which I carried in containers that were a bit bigger than a camera case. I steered clear of All Sport all day because it made me cramp in training. On the run, I had pretzels, MET-RX ORS (I carried an ultimate pack with a water bottle holder), fruit (watermelon and cantelope, even though I did not train with it), cookies, and lots of water (both on my head and in my mouth). Although I trained with GU most of the summer, I only had two packets nearing the end of the bike over the course of the day. By sticking to my plan, I accomplished my goal of completing my first Ironman, and I felt great afterwards. I never felt the heat and could not believe that it was 100 degrees out there (although I live in Michigan now, maybe its because I grew up in Houston, TX). At no point during the race did I ever feel in jeopardy of not crossing the finish line. This was very important to me because I wanted my first IM experience to be a positive one. Now, instead of never wanting to do another IM again, I can not wait to do my next IM. Well, its only been 2 weeks since IMC, so that may not be exactly true, but I know that I would like to do another one some time soon (No, I did not sign up for IMC ‘99). Remember this is just one man’s opinion with but only one IM under his belt, but I think this is where the trouble may begin. As I read many of the race reports, it seems as though the people who have competed at IMC before, come back for more than just the great views, and the great volunteers (don’t get me wrong, this is the only excuse anyone needs), but they come back to try to better their time from year’s past. I know that after I finished, I thought I could have gone a little faster on the run. When you bring the "time factor" into play, the vital signs take a back seat. And why not, you have competed in and completed this race before and exceeded your expectations, why should this be any different? Its different because its a new day, with new conditions. I do not recall who said this, but I heard it for the first time on this news group, so I will echo it now. Never underestimate the Ironman! Just my $0.02. -Andy Tumpowsky – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Conditions were tough this year at IMC, but I wanted to touch BRIEFLY in a few positives I had this year. Conditions were bad I guess according to all the reports, it was my first time at IMC and my first Ironman so it is hard to tell. Frankly, I had a great race and great experience. Did not have any problems with the heat, in fact, it’s a lot hotter here in middle Georgia and when I started the run at 3:30 I thought to my self that it felt pretty good, kind of cool even. My time was 13:08 and I’m proud of it. If conditions were so bad, I guess next year I can whack off an hour or two. No offense to all that had bad experiences but it’s time to take stock of what went wrong and plan to apply it next year so it will not happen again. For me, the conditions were fine. I did not know what to expect and accepted what I got and dealt with it. Did I like the wind? No. In fact, hell no. Did I struggle up the Yellow Lake climb? Sure I did and the rest of the way on the bike too. I hated my bike by the time I pulled into transition. Was the run fun? It sure was! I was prepared for heat, had my Succeed! caps and trained during the day in Georgia when he temps were 90 to 95 and the humidity was 70+ percent (its like that all summer where I live) I was prepared with nutrition that I had trained with all summer, Succeed! Clip, passed up all the Allsport, and did not have any stomach problems. Might I have problems in the future, who knows? But what I know from triathlon is that you get what you put into it. You have to deal with what you are given and make conscious decisions all the time to account for it. We knew it was going to be hot. We knew the swim was 2.4 miles, the bike 112 miles, the run 26.2 miles. We knew that the wind could really blow. In the back of each of our minds, in the deep subconsious of that thing we call a brain, we knew if we were prepared or not. Personnally, I felt prepared for 12 to 13 hours but really had no idea. I know after this race that I have to work on my bike riding strength. I ran out of gas at 75 miles. It wasn’t the heat, it wasn’t the food, it wasn’t my stomach…it was because I did not spend enough time riding my bike. I look forward to next year, hot, cold, windy, sheep, bears, hills, flats, whatever. bring ‘em on. Rolf, these comments are not directed at you at all, just at the subject line. gil gilliland milledgeville, ga
Conditions were tough this year at IMC, but I wanted to touch BRIEFLY in a few positives I had this year. Swim – Masters swimming is a must for the IM swim; I did NO long swims this year, and if it and my worry over my ankle, I would have PRed by about 2 minutes at 67 and change! Bike – I switched to one of those two-bolt stems so that I can remove the handlebars easily without removing tape, levers, etc. It was much easier without the stem to pack the bike. Plus, it is an ovalized oversize stem, and looks pretty cool! Bike – On a hilly course like IMC and in the tough conditions this year, I was thankful to have my pizza-platter 28-tooth cog on the back! Everyone is different, but an extra low gear helps, IMHO. Bike/Run – Hill training is so critical no matter what the course is like. I really think that hill work (or something like weights if you live in a flat area) is critical for an Ironman. Run – New Balance’s 851 shoe is really great. It is a big, heavy, stable, and SUPERBLY well cushioned shoe. I suffered no shoe related foot/leg problems this year. I developed toe blisters on the bike ride, oddly enough, and the 851 helped me to avoid aggravating them during the run leg. Run – Run with John Welch if/when you can! -Rolf — I am Iron Mac… …a student of Ironman, ever learning… …about having faith. IMC’94/14:07 IMC’95/11:59 IMC’97/12:12 IMC’98/14:02
: I think Greg and I would like to think generalization is a good thing, : but specialized groups of people….Borg…maybe. assimilation… : have certain inherent advantages.
More specifically, I’d like to say that some specialization is a good thing and seems to be a necessary precondition to a complex society such as the one we live in.
You follow in the wake of another Greg Rose (an Aussie) who is also a bright man whom I call friend. I would not quite use the word "good." Might be "necessary for continuance." "Good" is a little vague. It’s a delicate balancing act. I’m a specialist at computers, more specifically I’m a specialist at writing firmware and drivers for networking communications devices. I use low level languages for my purposes, even machine language from time to time. I couldn’t write a C++ program to save my life as object oriented languages just don’t cut it at the device level when it comes to meeting performance requirements or even providing a means of communicating with hardware via I/O ports and shared memory mapped to specific locations within the processor’s address space.
"The 21st century will belong to people who took AP Calculus in high school. And physics. It will belong to people who look for opportunities and overlook obstacles. It will belong to people who communicate well in English. what color will they be? I don’t know, and I don’t care." –Joanne Jacobs (Mercury Thursday June 27, 1996) Now we would like this think this, but the future is not assured. Survival used to be a mere matter of physical characteristics. Over time smarts were added, but they were frequently corrupted by those in the existing physical power base. There’s not a simple logic relationship. The survivors would be the most hardened of convicts, those in solitary confinement. Another group likely to survive would be file clerks for large insurance companies, because they would housed in fireproof rooms and insulated by tons of the best insulator in the world, paper. The small group of hardened criminals and the army of file file clerks will war with one another for the remaining means of life. The convicts will have a monopoly of violence, but the clerks will have a monopoly of organization. Who do you think will win? –Walter Groteschele, page 122, Fail Safe, E. Burdick & H. Wheeler However, ask me fix the plumbing and I’ll give you a dumb stare and flip through the phone book for a plumber’s number.
Then there is Douglas Adams concept of the "B-Ark" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This level of specialization is to me, OK. However, I feel it necessary to also take the time to learn some generalized knowledge about such things as raising my own food, knowing how to build a basic shelter, and being aware of things that are necessary to know in order to survive outside the boundaries of our specialized societal boundaries. Places such as the backcountry. ‘Cuz ya never know… Complex systems break down or sometimes you’re stuck in a place where you don’t have access to the specialists that they provide. At such a time, being over-specialized can be fatal. If I’m stuck in a cold rain with a broken down vehicle many miles away from help I can’t see how my ability to write machine code is going to save me. However, my generalized abilities at building a shelter, obtaining food, and protecting myself from the elemets will come in very handy. And yes, I have been in that exact situation before.
It’s why misc.survivialism started. : I know a lot of people who are generalists are struggling. They have a : lot of fear. They are called "Letters and Arts" majors in college as : one example. Heh. I was in Liberal Arts until I figured out I’d never make a living at it.
Ah! A change of behavior. Very important.
Humans have not yet been around long enough to know whether specialization or "generalization" is "better." I wish I knew.
It only takes one ice age to answer that question for you! The reality is that insects are survivors.
As species- but not as individuals. What’s your personal priority? –mike
: More specifically, I’d like to say that some specialization is a good : thing and seems to be a necessary precondition to a complex society : such as the one we live in.
: I would not quite use the word "good." Might be "necessary for : continuance." "Good" is a little vague. Greg continued: : Heh. I was in Liberal Arts until I figured out I’d never make a living : at it. Eugene quipped: : Ah! A change of behavior. Very important. I would bet that our generation will see some redefining of what constitutes "scholarship" in the sciences and technical fields. Specialization leads to hyper-specialization. Soon even folks within the same field can not converse. I’m a card carrying mathematician. While I might be able to discuss the 4-color thereorm, I couldn’t begin to discuss the proof of Fermat intelegnently and whats worse, I’m not in the minority. Alvin Sokal’s recent ruse went after the lack of peer review especially in the post-modern journals. But I would challange other technoids to read his essay and to find ALL of the mistatements. A corallary to Sokal is that we are ignorant outside of speciality. Hardin noted the same thing, no? The Arts, to their credit, have long recognized the validity of integrative and expository scholarship. One need not be poet or novelist or plywrite. One could be a literary critice or literary historian. This sort of scholarship allows for bitg picture thinking and allows for excursions outside of narrow disiplines. Maybe we will live to see the day when ethicist are in bio departments, historians in engineering and philosophers (back) in math. Dave Mann | "It is impossible, or not easy, to do | noble acts without the proper equipment."
Eugene Miya You want us to call you OLD Lt.?
NO! For heaven’s sake, that’s much worse… Markus Bjorksten
Eugene Miya "Young Lt." ??!! Have I deserved this?! Uhm… no comment <g. For the record: Young? Nope, 30. Lt? 2nd Lt. res.
You want us to call you OLD Lt.?
Smells like victory.
… John McCarthy … used to read this news group … … Talk about loyal opposition: John is sharp, but he has his weaknesses. He’s some of the best opposition an environmentalist can have.
Arguing with McCarthy on sci.environment used to piss me off — how could such a smart man be so ignorant of the biological sciences, and yet feel qualified to hold such strong opinions about environmental politics? And then I realized that he was forcing me to find references to back up my (asserted, quasi-religious) ideas, forcing me to think through things I’d long accepted without thinking. And then he became almost the only poster to sci.environment whose posts I read regularly and carefully (well, Stein Siggurdson’s too). Now I lurk, and learn, and grow stronger. — Joel Hanes SP4 Houseman Scholar, University of Ediacara "Only the enemy shows you where you are weak." Orson Scott Card _Ender’s_Game_ "Smarter environmentalists will come." Eugene Nobuyo Miya "A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability, and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise." Aldo Leopold
As Lazarus Long said, "Specialization is for insects."
Niven and Pournelle have written some neat stuff, but Lazarus Long was the creation of Robert Heinlein (in "Time Enough For Love" and various other titles).
Good mid-course correction. And Nov. 7 Star Troopers. I withhold further comments about Jerry. I think he can do better.
Eugene Miya
"Young Lt." ??!! Have I deserved this?! Uhm… no comment <g. For the record: Young? Nope, 30. Lt? 2nd Lt. res. Markus Bjorksten
: I think Greg and I would like to think generalization is a good thing, : but specialized groups of people….Borg…maybe. assimilation… : have certain inherent advantages. More specifically, I’d like to say that some specialization is a good thing and seems to be a necessary precondition to a complex society such as the one we live in. It’s a delicate balancing act. I’m a specialist at computers, more specifically I’m a specialist at writing firmware and drivers for networking communications devices. I use low level languages for my purposes, even machine language from time to time. I couldn’t write a C++ program to save my life as object oriented languages just don’t cut it at the device level when it comes to meeting performance requirements or even providing a means of communicating with hardware via I/O ports and shared memory mapped to specific locations within the processor’s address space. However, ask me fix the plumbing and I’ll give you a dumb stare and flip through the phone book for a plumber’s number. This level of specialization is to me, OK. However, I feel it necessary to also take the time to learn some generalized knowledge about such things as raising my own food, knowing how to build a basic shelter, and being aware of things that are necessary to know in order to survive outside the boundaries of our specialized societal boundaries. Places such as the backcountry. ‘Cuz ya never know… Complex systems break down or sometimes you’re stuck in a place where you don’t have access to the specialists that they provide. At such a time, being over-specialized can be fatal. If I’m stuck in a cold rain with a broken down vehicle many miles away from help I can’t see how my ability to write machine code is going to save me. However, my generalized abilities at building a shelter, obtaining food, and protecting myself from the elemets will come in very handy. And yes, I have been in that exact situation before. : I know a lot of people who are generalists are struggling. They have a : lot of fear. They are called "Letters and Arts" majors in college as : one example. Heh. I was in Liberal Arts until I figured out I’d never make a living at it. greg rose
Specialization is for insects not humans. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I think Greg and I would like to think generalization is a good thing, : but specialized groups of people….Borg…maybe. assimilation… : have certain inherent advantages. More specifically, I’d like to say that some specialization is a good thing and seems to be a necessary precondition to a complex society such as the one we live in. It’s a delicate balancing act. I’m a specialist at computers, more specifically I’m a specialist at writing firmware and drivers for networking communications devices. I use low level languages for my purposes, even machine language from time to time. I couldn’t write a C++ program to save my life as object oriented languages just don’t cut it at the device level when it comes to meeting performance requirements or even providing a means of communicating with hardware via I/O ports and shared memory mapped to specific locations within the processor’s address space. However, ask me fix the plumbing and I’ll give you a dumb stare and flip through the phone book for a plumber’s number. This level of specialization is to me, OK. However, I feel it necessary to also take the time to learn some generalized knowledge about such things as raising my own food, knowing how to build a basic shelter, and being aware of things that are necessary to know in order to survive outside the boundaries of our specialized societal boundaries. Places such as the backcountry. ‘Cuz ya never know… Complex systems break down or sometimes you’re stuck in a place where you don’t have access to the specialists that they provide. At such a time, being over-specialized can be fatal. If I’m stuck in a cold rain with a broken down vehicle many miles away from help I can’t see how my ability to write machine code is going to save me. However, my generalized abilities at building a shelter, obtaining food, and protecting myself from the elemets will come in very handy. And yes, I have been in that exact situation before. : I know a lot of people who are generalists are struggling. They have a : lot of fear. They are called "Letters and Arts" majors in college as : one example. Heh. I was in Liberal Arts until I figured out I’d never make a living at it. greg rose
– -Gene Gene Allen Garris, Jr. http://www.radia1.com/garris
: Specialization is for insects not humans. < 50+ lines of quote deleted I guess it’s that time of year again when new students flood the net. but hang around Jr., you will be assimilated. – mh
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider over-specialization to be dangerous. I agree, but I am not certain that either of our opinions will count for much. As Lazarus Long said, "Specialization is for insects." Humans have not yet been around long enough to know whether specialization or "generalization" is "better." I wish I knew. I’ve not read enough of the "wisdom" of Lazarus Long (I see Jerry Pournelle every November and have yet to meet Larry Niven). I don’t have a great opinion of Jerry, but he is entitled to his opinion. Jerry’s no biologist. And he does not hang out with enough of them (I just got in a nuclear power/nuclear security argument with him where he apologized when he had no need to apologize). So be careful when associating with ideas with fictional characters. I think: You can do better (than Jerry). 8^)
Niven and Pournelle have written some neat stuff, but Lazarus Long was the creation of Robert Heinlein (in "Time Enough For Love" and various other titles).
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider over-specialization to be dangerous. I agree, but I am not certain that either of our opinions will count for much. As Lazarus Long said, "Specialization is for insects." Humans have not yet been around long enough to know whether specialization or "generalization" is "better." I wish I knew. I’ve not read enough of the "wisdom" of Lazarus Long (I see Jerry Pournelle every November and have yet to meet Larry Niven). I don’t have a great opinion of Jerry, but he is entitled to his opinion. Jerry’s no biologist. And he does not hang out with enough of them (I just got in a nuclear power/nuclear security argument with him where he apologized when he had no need to apologize). So be careful when associating with ideas with fictional characters. I think: You can do better (than Jerry). 8^) Niven and Pournelle have written some neat stuff, but Lazarus Long was the creation of Robert Heinlein (in "Time Enough For Love" and various other titles).
I believe that Lazarus Long made his first appearance in "Future History." "Time Enough for Love" was the second major appearance and I believe the last was "Number of the Beast." It’s been yeas since I read them, but I remember that Heinlein himself was one of the characters in one of the books (I believe "Number of the Beast" and described as the most dangerous man in several universes. — Michael M. Schmieg Attorney at Law 110 Main Street Milford, Ohio 45150 voice 513-831-1200 fax 513-831-1201 http://w3.one.net/~schmieg
"If I don’t need one, then why would anyone?" This sure is a common question here.
Yep. Eugene Miya It depends [on] what you are doing there. Certainly. This is why tritium compasses are important too .
Yep, and that’s why the numbers are important. Few. I find a watch useful for the following: – Navigation: estimating distance – Navigation: direction finding (Sun) – Meeting times – Turn around times for safety. – Communication time – Weather broadcast time – Transportation time – Alarm clock
A fine list Markus. Another problem is to remember eg the somewhat complicated algorithm for determining the time from Ursa Major. Personally I don’t find it worth wile. Using the Moon, if visible, is simpler btw. constallation and their arc. The problem is accuracy.
The algorithm is not very complicated (start with 24 hours and 360 degrees). But it requires darkness and knowing right ascendion. Easier to carry a watch. Derivable.
I consider over-specialization to be dangerous. I agree, but I am not certain that either of our opinions will count for much.
As Lazarus Long said, "Specialization is for insects."
I consider over-specialization to be dangerous.
I agree, but I am not certain that either of our opinions will count for much.
As Lazarus Long said, "Specialization is for insects."
Humans have not yet been around long enough to know whether specialization or "generalization" is "better." I wish I knew. I’ve not read enough of the "wisdom" of Lazarus Long (I see Jerry Pournelle every November and have yet to meet Larry Niven). I don’t have a great opinion of Jerry, but he is entitled to his opinion. Jerry’s no biologist. And he does not hang out with enough of them (I just got in a nuclear power/nuclear security argument with him where he apologized when he had no need to apologize). So be careful when associating with ideas with fictional characters. I think: You can do better (than Jerry). 8^) Just yesterday I heard twice, two different versions of a joke which started What’s the differences between XXX and Jurassic Park? One is about a bunch of dinosaurs surrounded by insects, etc. [Gap intended for the punchline] And the other is a movie. I heard this twice which was amazing to me. Different people. I even have a tee-shirt about this (MPCI: from LLNL: Attack of the Killer Micros). The reality is that insects are survivors. They have many successful attributes (one r.b. residents declared himself an Alien (from Alien). They have social structures and classifications completely different from binary thinking humans (e.g.: Queens, drones, workers). I think Greg and I would like to think generalization is a good thing, but specialized groups of people….Borg…maybe. assimilation… have certain inherent advantages. I know a lot of people who are generalists are struggling. They have a lot of fear. They are called "Letters and Arts" majors in college as one example. You see one problem with this news group, and it’s a problem I had trying to run a professional society (Association for Computing Machinery, Special Interesting Group on Computer Graphics), is that it gets filled up with novices. And there’s almost nothing of value for the knowledgeable people to stay or do (Well in my SIG there were and that’s why we were successful). That’s few incentives beyond the traditional ones set up by royalities, salaries, etc. News groups which require some skill: professional or avocational have a different tone in them. Here, the only knowledge a novice has is to appear to be polite. That does not, and it should not cut it here. "Sorry"s, "Thank you"s, and "Attaboy"s just won’t cut it. Unlike other most news groups, we deal with lethal information here. There’s a high price for context. Novices think "It won’t happen to me." Just slightly above novices start to get paranoid (those are the various filter, pepper spray, gun, etc. threads). [Overreact.] People want a quick oracle of free information without the responsibility inherent in context. They are willing to move some of it around like money (to be seemingly helpful) when say their friends ask. To look good. And this is why airlines have to tell the general public travelling with small children to have the adult put their O2 masks FIRST in event of sudden cabin depressurization: because normal social conventions are dumb. Bzztm bzztm, bzz Resistance is futile…… "Zoldans do not like shallow expressions of courtesy." –Wesley Crusher Sorry for those of you who puke at Wesley. 8^)
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Somebody back up and explain why I need *any* watch when heading to the : backcountry. I learn everything I need to know about the time of day from : watching shadows. (Ans listening to my belly rumble!) : I wear one but I agree that you don’t "need" one. A friend of never : wears a watch & claims to rely on the sun. When I’m with him though he : asks me for the time. Depends what you’re doing, where and when.
One thing I use my watch for is to estimate the portage half way point when doing passing portages. Passing Portage – One person carries load "A" half way, returns for load "B" & carries it all the way. Other person carries load "C" all the way & returns to half way point to get load "A". This can be used when there is a little too much load for a single portage. The stopwatch function is the easiest way to estimate half way. I assume 12-16 minutes per 1000 meters depending on terrain. I used to rely on counting steps but usually lost count. — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!"
[Reference lost] Somebody back up and explain why I need *any* watch when heading to the backcountry.
"If I don’t need one, then why would anyone?" This sure is a common question here. Eugene Miya It depends [on] what you are doing there.
Certainly. This is why tritium compasses are important too . I find a watch useful for the following: - Navigation: estimating distance walked/skied, especially in limited visibility and other hard to navigate situations. Important. Stop-watch function is useful, and illumination is handy in night usage, although it’s too bright in typical watches. - Navigation: direction finding (Sun) in an area with magnetic anomalies. - Meeting times for rejoining group, emergencies etc. - Turn around times for safety. - Communication times, eg when radiotelephones are carried. - Weather broadcast times, when radio is carried (eg sea-kayaking). - Transportation times: fetch times, bus time-tables etc. - Alarm clock to remind of all of the above and to help early wake up eg when required by snow conditions changing during the day (spring-winter). (Problematic in cold though as keeping watch in sleeping bag muffles the sound and it might not work due to the cold if kept outside.) One can read the time from knowing the locations of certain constallation and their arc. The problem is accuracy. That has always been the longitude problem.
Another problem is to remember eg the somewhat complicated algorithm for determining the time from Ursa Major. Personally I don’t find it worth wile. Using the Moon, if visible, is simpler btw. Markus Bjorksten [delete this]iki.fi
Somebody back up and explain why I need *any* watch when heading to the backcountry. I learn everything I need to know about the time of day from watching shadows. (Ans listening to my belly rumble!) -TimN
Somebody back up and explain why I need *any* watch when heading to the backcountry. I learn everything I need to know about the time of day from watching shadows. (Ans listening to my belly rumble!) -TimN
I wear one but I agree that you don’t "need" one. A friend of never wears a watch & claims to rely on the sun. When I’m with him though he asks me for the time. — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!"
(Trn0) writes: I learn everything I need to know about the time of day from watching shadows.
You must not hike in the NW, where the sun might not shine for days. Always, Fred Chittenden http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/homestead/always/always.htm
: : Somebody back up and explain why I need *any* watch when heading to the : backcountry. I learn everything I need to know about the time of day from : watching shadows. (Ans listening to my belly rumble!) : : -TimN : I wear one but I agree that you don’t "need" one. A friend of never : wears a watch & claims to rely on the sun. When I’m with him though he : asks me for the time. Well, just to be contrary… What if there isn’t any sun? Like if it’s cloudy, or nighttime. If someone is familiar with their constellations and stars and knows the time of the year and what time it is then they can get a good idea of their location and even their direction. greg rose
That’s why I used the term "good idea". Without a reliable map and compass it can be very difficult to determine "exactly" where one is.
I’ve watched some of my friends who attempt to tell time at night using constellations. Fortunately we typically aren’t travelling. The big problem is trig: accuracy. I noted your qualification. It was not a problem. to keep track of the positions of the stars and the phase of the moon.
That I keep track of if I need to approach a climb early and need all the daylight I can get to switch leads. : ftp://ftp.ai.mit.edu/pub/minsky/NegExp.mss.txt There are some things I know not to do. Cool article Eugene, you never cease to amaze me.
ROTFL. What did I do? I was just click on web pointers on one part of the screen, while reading mail, news, and programming in other parts. I just thought Marvin wrote a great article.
: Cool article Eugene, you never cease to amaze me. : ROTFL. What did I do? You displayed yet another facet of a personality that seems to me to be one of a definite renaissance quality. Many people these days seem to be very specialized and in general they’re pretty ignorant about things outside of their dominant perview. It’s good to see someone who seems to be interested in a wide variety of subjects. It’s actually quite rare these days, especially on Usenet. I consider over-specialization to be dangerous. greg rose
: : Somebody back up and explain why I need *any* watch when heading to the : backcountry. I learn everything I need to know about the time of day from : watching shadows. (Ans listening to my belly rumble!) : I wear one but I agree that you don’t "need" one. A friend of never : wears a watch & claims to rely on the sun. When I’m with him though he : asks me for the time. Depends what you’re doing, where and when. If you’re navigating in difficult conditions (say whiteout on a plateau with cliff edges, like the Cairngorms) then a watch is an important navigation tool, as timing yourself can be a reliable indicator of where you are. Along with pace counting, this is the sort of thing that works inside the error potential of a GPS system, which is big enough that it can take you over a cliff in full white conditions. Also in Scotland you have a serious daylight problem in winter (it’s getting up towards 60 N), and you really need to know how much daylight you have left so you know whether to bale out of a route or not. If you’re climbing a gully on a gloomy day, all you can tell from shadows is that everything’s in one: not terribly useful. Another reason to know the time is so you can get back to a rendezvous *before* a cut-off to call out the rescue. I only usually wear a watch when I’m in the hills, not the other way around. As for "You need a RUGGED WATCH!", a cheap Casio is shockproof, waterproof and is perfectly up to most outdoor activities. Pete. — Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 3637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why would I buy an imitation, especially if wanting a rugged watch? Get a Timex Triathalon or Ironman. They are much more accurate than your trash, have alarm, timer, stopwatch. They are very water resistant, shockproof, the battery lasts for 5 years & you can read them in the dark. They also aren’t infringing on copyright. — Lloyd Bowles Agreed! I’ve got a Timex Triathlon shock resistant. Great watch and tougher than hell! Why infringe on copyright for no reason? Mark
Why would you want to get an expensive watch like that for getting away from it all in the wilderness? I use a $2.99 digital watch from the corner drugstore and it keeps time to a few seconds per day. It may be designed for kids but what the heck who cares about fashion when you’re getting away from civilization.? — Pete Schultz (630) 979-1290 Lucent Technologies 2000 N. Naperville Road ih 5c-440
Why would I buy an imitation, especially if wanting a rugged watch? Get a Timex Triathalon or Ironman. They are much more accurate than your trash, have alarm, timer, stopwatch. They are very water resistant, shockproof, the battery lasts for 5 years & you can read them in the dark. They also aren’t infringing on copyright. — Lloyd Bowles
Agreed! I’ve got a Timex Triathlon shock resistant. Great watch and tougher than hell! Why infringe on copyright for no reason? Mark
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Why would I buy an imitation, especially if wanting a rugged watch? Get a Timex Triathalon or Ironman. They are much more accurate than your trash, have alarm, timer, stopwatch. They are very water resistant, shockproof, the battery lasts for 5 years & you can read them in the dark. They also aren’t infringing on copyright. — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!"
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After writing about the race on the airplane for a couple hours yesterday, I realized that I still have hours to go before I’m finished. So, I thought I could at least get out a brief report of my Vineman experience. Background: this is my third year spent training for an Ironman distance triathlon. In 1993 I got sick 5 days before the race and did not start. In 1994 I trained poorly and DNF’ed at the 19 mile mark of the run. Last October I was watching my friend, Dick Lansing, do the Great Floridian. I decided to try one more time. Training this year: my best ever. Got in a 7:15 ride (Computrainer) 3:45 run (treadmill) brick [went through a lot of videos in the basement that day!] back in April. Began tapering after that, although I planned on a longer workout in May, but my system was not ready for more. June was the hardest month in terms of lack of motivation and general fatigue. Vineman statistics: 1:03:15 swim (way short course!) 6:53 T1 7:16:00 bike (16 min changing a flat just short of Chalk Hill lap 1) is that any where near the record for slowest tire change? 2:42 T2 4:32:31 run 13:01:21 total (at least a half hour less than planned!) Average HR for the swim-135 bpm, bike-135 bpm, run-135 bpm. This was not the plan. I had hoped for low 130’s on the bike and high 130’s on the run, but believe me, I’m not complaining! The volunteers were fantastic! The drafting pack from the 1/2 that went by me was blatant. My wife, mother and father, and two good friends (Dick & Carleen) were all out cheering for me. I don’t know if anyone has ever had such a great group. I found out race day that they wrote my name on the road, all the way up Chalk hill (in chalk no less). So if you saw "Todd" written there, that was from my support group! Todd Kearney Swim, Bike, Run
Average HR for the swim-135 bpm, bike-135 bpm, run-135 bpm. This was not the plan. I had hoped for low 130’s on the bike and high 130’s on the run, but believe me, I’m not complaining!
Wow, that sounds pretty good to me. I would love to be able to keep my HR so low, so long. I did the half, and my averages (and times) were 151 (:30), 146 (2:45), and 161 (1:45). I think that’s what happens when you try to make a slow body go fast! Anyway, it was my first half-Vineman, and it was a great race. It’s now right up with Wildflower as a race not to miss every year. The volunteers were fantastic! The drafting pack from the 1/2 that went by me was blatant. My wife, mother and father, and two good friends (Dick & Carleen) were all out cheering for me. I don’t know if anyone has ever had such a great group. I found out race day that they wrote my name on the road, all the way up Chalk hill (in chalk no less). So if you saw "Todd" written there, that was from my support group!
You sure did have a great group. As I began climbing that hill, I thought "someone’s really rooting for Todd." After a bit though, I pretended that they were rooting for me too! –Todd Robertson
[snip] Vineman statistics: 1:03:15 swim (way short course!) 6:53 T1 7:16:00 bike (16 min changing a flat just short of Chalk Hill lap 1) is that any where near the record for slowest tire change? 2:42 T2 4:32:31 run 13:01:21 total (at least a half hour less than planned!)
[snip] Todd – I saw all that writing on the ground! I thought it was pretty funny because I was reflecting how difficult it was to make it up that hill given my condition. Additionally, I swear I was there when you crossed the finish line in the evening..were they still handing out the awards at nite..here i am and all of a sudden..i hear the name Todd Kearney..and my mind is saying i know that name…didn’t realize you were doing the full! Congratulations on double my fun! Jeff
Training this year: my best ever. Got in a 7:15 ride (Computrainer) 3:45 run (treadmill) brick
Todd: You are an IM – Iron Mind, to do that kind of workout. That’s hard core!! Steve Fleck
Training this year: my best ever. Got in a 7:15 ride (Computrainer) 3:45 run (treadmill) brick Todd: You are an IM – Iron Mind, to do that kind of workout. That’s hard core!!
Ha! He fooled you! That was 7 min and 15 seconds on the Compu-thingy and 3 min and 45 sec on the treadmill. That ain’t so bad! —- Please note that a smiley face follows in lieu of a "just kidding" disclaimer! === ;-) <<<=== —- -Rolf — Call me IronMac … … I tri … … I prefer Macintosh! IMC ‘94 – 14:06:47 IMC ‘95 – 11:58:35 IMC ‘97 – 10:45:00
Average HR for the swim-135 bpm, bike-135 bpm, run-135 bpm. This was not the plan. I had hoped for low 130’s on the bike and high 130’s on
how can u possibly keep your heartrate that low! For the full this year, i averaged 180 bpm on the swim. 160 on the bike. Sorry, don’t have HR info for the run (took of belt). Chris
Average HR for the swim-135 bpm, bike-135 bpm, run-135 bpm. how can u possibly keep your heartrate that low! For the full this year, i averaged 180 bpm on the swim. 160 on the bike. Sorry, don’t have HR info for the run (took of belt).
For me that works out to about 68% of MHR for the swim, 62% for the bike, and 60% for the run. I would think that your max heart rate for swimming is lower than biking (it normally is 10 or more beats per minute lower). I would then think that your HR for the swim was at a much higher percentage of your max than I was. Can’t say about the bike without something else to compare it to (like your run HR’s). — Todd Kearney Swim, Bike, Run
I posted a few months ago with a queury about pain in my inside heel. Based on the replies that I got, I think the problem was an inflammation of the tissue that connects the heel to the toes. I was finally able to cure the problem with new (& well-cushioned) shoes, two weeks of rest (some walking, no running), ice after each walk & initially after each run when I started back, starting back slowly, ibuprofin. Then, before Christmas, I was running on a level road & suddenly felt a very sharp pain in my ankle, on the outside just below & slightly to the back of the boney part. The ankle never twisted at all; the pain just started on one perfectly mild-mannered down step. Further running was out of the question–I could walk but only gingerly. As soon as I cooled down, the ankle stiffened but never swelled. I tried to run once after 2 weeks & made matters worse– now almost 3 weeks later, I definately get the impression that running is not a good idea. The first question is what the devil I managed to do to myself. The second question is whether there could be a dietary deficiency or other problem that is causing my ligaments to be injury-prone (I also injured something in the back of my hand late last Fall, an injury that was attributed to too much computer work). I don’t eat red meat & eat chicken no more than 2-3 times a week; I don’t drink much milk but eat lots of cheese; I don’t eat eggs at all; I usually take some sort of vitamin with iron as otherwise I tend towards mild anemia. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help,
A simple but effective exercise for the ankles will help in greatly reducing your chances of ankle sprains. The exercise: Stand with feet in normal standing position. Place a hand on a wall or a railing for a little balance. Now, ‘roll’ your feet around on their ‘outer edges’. Repeat 50 times. (‘Rolling on the outer edges’ means to tilt your feet as far outward and inward (supination and pronation) as possible but inbetween rock forward on your the balls of your feet and back on your heels.) The major benefit is the stretching and strengthening on the muscles and tendons which keep your foot stable as you run. If I am fairly consistent with this exercise, instead of rolling my ankle and spraining it when I run, if I hit an uneven surface, my foot will roll out, but since it is stretched it can go farther and since it is strengthened it can pull back up easier, and I hardly ever sprain an ankle any more. Mike Dotseth "WOW FUN WOW" /_ "They call me Lucky. The harder I work, the luckier I get!" | - Kenton Finanger (Luther College Cross Country Coach)
In my experience, most doctors and most runners don’t take severe ankle sprains seriously enough. With most sprains, you partially tear ligaments. If you go back to walking on it too soon, and even worse running on it, the ligament heals back longer than it was. This means the joint is looser, and more prone to rolling over in the future. Severe sprains take six weeks to heal. Running on them before that dooms you to more sprains in the future. The best treatment is to put the ankle in a cast with the foot held in a position such that the ligament heals back the right length. However, most doctors take the attitude of no break, no cast. I had a series of sprains which were taken too lightly. Then I had a major one that completely severed the ligament on the outside of the ankle. I was given the choice of surgery or physical therapy. I chose to avoid the knife. That ankle is now fine for running. It is stable front to back but completely floppy side to side. It rolls over easily, but since the ligament is gone, there is no pain; I just fall. Sometimes I fall down just talking to someone; I shift my weight, the ankle rolls over, and down I go. If I wanted to continue playing basketball, I would have had to have the surgery, but running is enough for me at this point in my life. So, try to talk the doctor into casting a sprained ankle. If you can’t, follow the R.I.C.E religiosly and use your crutches; no weight at all on it for a couple weeks at least. And then, don’t try to go back to running on it for 6 weeks. — 3531 Boelter Hall day: 310 206-8696 Department of Computer Science University of California Los Angeles, 90024-1596
Two questions: a. How to prevent them? b. What to do when you get them?
As I’ve been a fairly serious orienteer for the last 17 years (since I was 10) and I’ve been running hill-races for several years, I’ve twisted my ankles umpteen times, and so have my running friends. The taping techniques (below) are those used by Scandinavian orienteers. Initial treatment – ICE – ice, compression and elevation. If necessary, stick your foot in a stream or pond. If you are at home, apply an ice-pack. If you don’t have an ice-pack, use a pack of frozen vegetables (peas are good), but don’t eat repeatedly refrozen food. Bandage the ankle. Ibuprofen seems effective, but I have only recently started using it, and I haven’t done myself much damage recently. Over a longer term you want to develop strength, flexibility and protective reflexes in your ankles. For flexibility, with bare feet, circle your toes in clockwise and anticlockwise directions. After doing this for several turns you can use your hands to *gently* increase the degree of flexion. For strength, try standing on one leg. Once you develop enough balance to not wobble much, try it with your eyes shut and arms folded. The idea is that you should be wobbling about. This also helps to train your muscles to act correctly to support your ankles. You can also do this on a "wobble board" – a board raised off the ground, that you can stand on and wobble as you try to balance. Purpose made wobble boards are usually circular, with a hemispherical block of wood underneath, about 5-6 inches (12-15cm) tall, but they are easy to improvise. Running on rough surfaces will also increase the strength and flexibility of your ankles, but most importantly they will train your muscles to react correctly to twisting in order to protect your ankles. However, you don’t want to twist your ankles doing it, so take it slowly. Off-road shoes should not have thick wedges in the soles, or flared midsoles. You want your foot to be close to the ground. Your heels must be snuggly held in the shoe for stability. Studded soles will help. If you really need to protect your ankle when running you can tape it for support. Get wide (2in, 5cm) strapping tape. Shave the offending ankle a fair way up the leg. Strapping doesn’t work well on hairy legs, and it hurts like hell getting the stuff off. You should tape in a stirrup under the heel, with the ends of the tape going a hands- spread up the calf from the ankle, on both sides. This tape should be fairly taut. A loop of tape around the calf will help keep the tape in place, but don’t make this too tight. You can also put a piece of tape over the top of the foot, behind the heel and back over the foot, crossing itself. This gives support if your foot is forced backwards as you move forwards. Leg —— | | |||||| | ## | ## $$ Big Foot ! ###### |##$$| | ## | and | ## | | ## | $$ ## | ## | $/—# |_##___Foot__| $___/# # and $ = tape $$$## TAPE AS INFREQUENTLY AS POSSIBLE ! If you strap you ankles all the time they won’t get stronger and your muscles won’t learn to react to the signals from the nerves which monitor your ankle movements. The only exception to this is if you have destroyed the proprioceptive nerves in your ankle due to repeated damage. In this case light taping in a stirrup will give a signal (by pulling on the skin) when your ankle is flexed that you can learn to use instead. I hope this helps some of you with ankle problems. Steve. — / __/ _ /|/ _/ Centre for Speech Technology Research / _ | / and Department of Linguistics, / __/ __ / _/
the first thing is to put a bandage pretty tight around it to prevent inner bleedings. Keep it on for 30 minutes, keep your foot high, and put ice on it. Remove it to get the blood flowing again, and then put it on again for another 30 minutes, keep your foot high and keep the ice there. Then you tape your ankle after a very intricate schedule, and you can start training again, not the same level, but very soft…
RICE: Rest Ice Compression Elevation — Brooklyn NY usa Design & Consultation
Two questions: a. How to prevent them?
Don’t run on areas where hidden objects could flip your foot. Your injury in the dark cannot be avoided if you can’t see where your stepping. I’ve had several ankle injuries and now take much greater precautions. Watch out for leaves covering rocks, roots, holes. Ankle stretching helps abit but a violent twist will still cause serious injury. Shoes with wider soles/heels are more stable than other types. Running when tired makes one more susceptible to twists. b. What to do when you get them? Oh yes, the swelling has come down a bit and the ugly, blue bruise has begun to show up. I can see the blue best on the inside of the ankle, though the discoleration has spread to the top and outside of the ankle.
If your foot is stuck in a comfortable but unnatural position I would recommend seeing an orthopedist. The degree of bruising makes me reminisce about a sprain I got on a chunk of ice in the road. My ankle swelled up to the aprox size of a small baseball or large golf ball, almost immediately. I didn’t use the ice I stepped on, but a nearby piece to ice it up on the spot. After 3 days of hoping it would get better I got tired of all my friends telling me I better go see a doctor– so I did. (I got used to gingerly hopping around so I entered the office with a lot of energy). The doctor took the x-rays, told me I had no breaks, just tendon/ligament damage (the bruising up the side of my calf), and proceeded to force my ankle back into a normal position (instep aprox 90deg to shin). He told me to hold this position while he wrapped my foot in a cast. It was fairly painful but I figured I only had to hold it for a few more moments. When he told me I could relax, I was a bit suprised to find that I couldn’t as the cast prevent- ed me from returning to my non-painful position. Remember how I hopped into the office? Well, getting out was another story. Ten pounds of new mass on one side of my body (happily I forget which side), and new crutches, while cringing in pain, the other patients in various stages of broken-ness, probably had a bit of catharsis-like glee in seeing me, practically careen out through the waiting room. I came in through the waiting room in aprox 15 secs; to took me aprox 3 minutes to get out! This is not to scare you or deter you from seeing the doctor. Your injury is probably not as bad as this, but if you do have to go, at least you will be a bit more mentally prepared than I was. — Brooklyn NY usa Design & Consultation
Two questions: a. How to prevent them? b. What to do when you get them?
the first thing is to put a bandage pretty tight around it to prevent inner bleedings. Keep it on for 30 minutes, keep your foot high, and put ice on it. Remove it to get the blood flowing again, and then put it on again for another 30 minutes, keep your foot high and keep the ice there. Then you tape your ankle after a very intricate schedule, and you can start training again, not the same level, but very soft… How to prevent them? Run on a track or on asphalt, and not in the woods.. Department of Physics, University of Stockholm — Sweden (Northern Europe)
Two questions: a. How to prevent them? b. What to do when you get them? These two questions are the result of my most recent sprain. It seems that I sprain one or the other of my ankles every 6 months or so. This most recent sprain occured on Friday evening (in the cold dark, of course) as I was cranking back to home. A little rock or bulge in the road caused the outer edge of my left foot to twist down and in. I twinge just remembering it. This is the usual type of sprain. Something on the inside of the foot prevents it from landing normally and causes the outside of the foot to twist down and in. After the usual cursing, screaming, etc, I was able to hop/hobble the 1/2 mile or so back to the house. My ankle was already swelling by the time I took of my shoe. First thing was to take 3*200mg of ibuprofin, take a shower (’cause I was freezing), and then I put one of those cold jelly-like bags around my ankle. Since Friday night, I’ve taken 200 or 400mg of ibuprofin every 4 hours or so and I’ve given up the jelly-like bag for a big bowl of ice and water at about the same interval. I try to keep my ankle/foot in the ice water for 10/15 minutes (hurts like hell to put the foot in, but that gives way to numbness in 2/3 minutes). And I’ve kept the walking down to a minimum – though 4 football games on TV was a bit much. Oh yes, the swelling has come down a bit and the ugly, blue bruise has begun to show up. I can see the blue best on the inside of the ankle, though the discoleration has spread to the top and outside of the ankle. So, any suggestions on treatment (ice pack, jelly wrap, ice/water, times of freezing, ibuprofin vs asperin, elevating, wraps, etc….) and on prevention (goofy exercises, stretches, shoes, braces, wraps, etc….) would be greatly appreciated! I will post the results of these questions. — Joseph Stewart Senior Applications Engineer (FIGARO+, FIGt, FIGraph) Template Graphics Software (TGS) 959 Concord Street Framingham MA 01701-4613 (USA) 508-872-8700 x340
Thanks Mark. It’s an interesting article. When I was doing the one legged exercise I felt like I was on an episode of Cops doing a sobriety test. It works though !!
Unique problem here folks, I think. In a running career that has spanned approx 15 years now, I have completely torn/sprained each ankle about 3 or 4 times each. You know, the old complete inversion where the sole of the foot is 90 degrees to the ground pointing inward and all the weight is coming down on it. Part of the problem is that I like to do a lot of trail running, which is where it most often happens. I’d have a hard time giving up the trails. My fear is that I’ve incurred irreparable damage making it easier to sprain in the future. Any advice on prevention or treatment ?? Jack.
Have you looked at October’s Runner’s World? It has a section on trail running, including an overview of trail shoes. They make the statement that it is nearly impossible to sprain/twist your ankles in the latest shoes. Seems pretty bold to me, but…
I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch. I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before). For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk. I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second. There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own? How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again? I’d appreciate any advice.
I would get an x-ray. It could be broken. Swelling is not always present in fractures. Good luck! Let us know what you find out. April – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch. I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before). For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk. I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second. There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own? How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again? I’d appreciate any advice.
When I ’sprained’ my ankle, it was about 6 weeks before I could walk normal again. It turned out to be a cracked bone, but either way, there was nothing a doctor could do, other then take an x-ray, charge me a lot of money and tell me to use an ace bandage and crutches until it felt better again. To this day, about 15 years later, my ankle is still enlarged. The swelling never did return to normal size.
Dear Alvin, Might it be BROKEN??? See an MD, right away!! Teresa
Having sprained both ankles at various times, I recommend that you do a lot of balancing exercises, or else it *WILL* keep recurring. Mark.
: I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch. I : heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle : sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before). For : all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. : Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk. I : can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a : second. There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. : Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal : on its own? How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can : walk again? I’d appreciate any advice. If you haven’t had an x-ray taken by the time you read this, you are dumber than I thought. Larry
Well, what are you waiting for ?? GO !!! Edward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch. I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before). For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk. I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second. There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own? How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again? I’d appreciate any advice.
Simple question: Simple answer… Have an X-ray.. Then go from there.. Good luck Bill… return with a post…group would like to know.
Thank you all for the suggestions; they’ve been very helpful. I’ll have the ankle diagnosed if it doesn’t get significantly better by tomorrow. I do have the full (albeit painful) range of motion on my foot though, which I think is a good sign. Again, I appreciate all the advice I got from these posts. Alvin
One Word: Kobe
Sorry to hear about your accident. I constantly get nightmares about twisting my ankle because at the moment you do it, it can be one of the most painful things which leaves a lasting memory that you just don’t forget. It will certainly ruin any training momentum you had going. Your popping sound worries me and I think you should go have it checked. How long it takes to recover depends on how badly you twisted it. I stepped on a rock a couple of weeks ago and twisted my ankle. It really stung badly but it was only a moderate sprain and so after about 10 minutes of walking, I began running again slightly favoring the ankle. The next day I could pretty much run normally again. I was extremely lucky. Other times ankle sprains have taken me three months to recover. I also highly advise staying off of trails unless they are smooth and even which most trails aren’t. This is especially the case if you are running fast. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch. I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before). For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk. I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second. There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own? How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again? I’d appreciate any advice.
Before you buy.
Simple question: Simple answer… Have an X-ray.. Then go from there.. Good luck Bill… return with a post…group would like to know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch. I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before). For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk. I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second. There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own? How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again? I’d appreciate any advice.
– It is of immense importance to learn to laugh at ourselves. –Katherine Mansfield//////Question of the day. Why make it so complicated? Before you buy.
Yes and some dummies run to the Doctor at every little thing . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch. I : heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle : sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before). For : all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. : Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk. I : can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a : second. There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. : Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal : on its own? How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can : walk again? I’d appreciate any advice. If you haven’t had an x-ray taken by the time you read this, you are dumber than I thought. Larry
I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch. I heard a couple of loud pops
NOT a good sign. Get this checked out ASAP! DARE: To End The Failed, Evil "War On Drugs"
I sprained my ankle 20th May and this is the first week when I’ve been able to run again. You should wait until you can hop 3-4 times without any pain and then start running slow and easy. Remember.. it’s better to let it heal completely.. I tried to go running just after 2 weeks and I resprained my ankle. I could’ve probably been able to run again sooner if I wouldn’t have resprained the ankle earlier on. —
I think that a trip to the Chiropractor might be in order . You get an X-ray , you see someone trained in bones , and if it is only a sprain , you get help . If it shows that it is broken , then you go to the appropriate type of medical help for broken bones { M. D. or Ostio. In my rarely humble opinion . T – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, what are you waiting for ?? GO !!! Edward I twisted my ankle badly when I accidentally stepped into a ditch. I heard a couple of loud pops before I fell down… I think it’s an ankle sprain, but I’m not sure (since I’ve never been injured before). For all I know, it could be a strained or even a broken ankle. Anyway, it’s been 36 hours and I still can’t stand, let alone walk. I can’t put any pressure at all on this ankle, not even for half a second. There’s no swelling/bruises/discoloration. Should I see a doctor for this, or can I just bandage it & let it heal on its own? How long do these kinds of ankle sprains last before I can walk again? I’d appreciate any advice.
I am an avid runner (14 years of great mileage) who can’t stand not being able to run. I’m addicted to it. I recently sprained my ankle (about a week ago) and I can’t run on it. What is the fastest way to get it healed up so I can get back to running again?
Check out a site called `sports medicine online’. Unfortunatly I don’t have there address but your search engine should find it. You’ll find lots of helpful exercises. Also, the usual advice I’ve read is what they call RICE. R-rest I-ice C-constrict E-elevate. Good Luck, Ankle sprains are a bastard. Anthony.
I am an avid runner (14 years of great mileage) who can’t stand not being able to run. I’m addicted to it. I recently sprained my ankle (about a week ago) and I can’t run on it. What is the fastest way to get it healed up so I can get back to running again?Depends on the severity of the sprain.
– Dennis Kiper, D.P.M. 800-DR KIPER http://www.liberty.com/home/footdoc
Take my advice, let it heal. I twisted mine in April playing basketball (never again) and it is still slightly swollen. It still swells a little on runs longer than 7 miles, it doesn’t hurt bad enough to quit running just enough to irritate me. You should ice for the first two days until the swelling stops, then switch to heat. Doing ankle exercises will help: Draw the alphabet with your foot, do calf stretches. Wear a brace if you have to for your daily walking around and running if it is comfortable. Heal now or pay latter—- I’m paying latter. — TRIATHLON 3 TIMES THE FUN IF YOU HAVE TO DRAFT—TAKE UP A DIFFERENT SPORT!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am an avid runner (14 years of great mileage) who can’t stand not being able to run. I’m addicted to it. I recently sprained my ankle (about a week ago) and I can’t run on it. What is the fastest way to get it healed up so I can get back to running again?Depends on the severity of the sprain. — Dennis Kiper, D.P.M. 800-DR KIPER http://www.liberty.com/home/footdoc
What are your personal goals for this year, and how do you plan to accomplish them?
My goals are as follows: 1. Complete Latta Plantation (Olympic) Triathlon in under 3 hrs. Swim (1.5k) 0:30 Bike (45k) 1:25 Run (10k) 0:59 This is my main local race. I train on the course, so I know what my goal times should be. 2. Complete two add’l Olympic Tri’s that I’ve never done. 3. Complete my first Half-Ironman Tri I plan to accomplish via much better training. Last year was my first year & I really didn’t know what I was doing beyond swimming, biking & running. This year, I’ve got a focused training program (email if you’d like more info), keep a log & have biking partners. Don’t need them for the swim, I’d love to find some for the run! I’m also gonna spring $$$$ for a better bike! I have been impressed with twhat I have heard from RSTers as far as training advice
Most all info I’ve gained has been through rst. You’re right, learn from the experts that post to this group. (And pick up what little advice you can from people like me who can mimick them ) Anyone can hit the Snooze button.
OK, you’ve inspire me! I’ll do my Swim Workout in the morning tomoroow!!!
Last year my personal goals (new year’s resolutions) were to a) compete well in a duathlon (in the top quarter), b) complete a marathon, c) improve my century time to sub 5 hours and d) run a sub-40 10k. I managed to do all except the last (40:37 damn damn damn). This year my goals are to a) place in my age group in a duathlon, b) run a sub-40 10 k, c) complete my first triathlon (I am just learning how to swim). I think these goals are reasonably realistic. I think from the goals you mention, the hardest will be to get your bike speed up to 21 mph if you are currently at 17 mph. Just try to ride as fast as you can and if you only get up to 20, be happy. Good Luck! Scott. — Scott MacDougall-Shackleton o_ Dept. of Psychology _,/’_ Coffee: Breakfast of Champions Johns Hopkins University (_) (_)
I like to set several goals. 1) Several small "stepping stone" goals e.g. increase .5 mi/hr on the bike, or 5 seconds/mile faster in the run etc. 2) Reasonable goals for the season. 3) Dream goals for the season. I feel it is important to always have a dream goal, but also have the smaller ones so you can have the satisfaction of meeting your goals. Janet
Just having started triathlons last season, my goals were relatively simple: Do a duathlon, do a sprint triathlon, finish, and don’t finish last. This year, though, I need to get more specific. I know I need to increase my average bike speed from 17 mph to 21 mph, and bring my 5k times down from 8:37 to mid 7’s. Any suggestions on accomplishing this are welcome, but I have been reading up for training suggestions, so I don’t want to bore people with such a wide open question. What I really want to ask is this: What are your personal goals for this year, and how do you plan to accomplish them? I have been impressed with twhat I have heard from RSTers as far as training advice and ways to fit training into a balanced lifestyle, and I think that seeing the goal setting process of more experienced triathletes might benefit beginners like myself. Thanks in advance. Brad W. — Anyone can hit the Snooze button. Brad W. Chesapeake, VA
Just having started triathlons last season, my goals were relatively simple: Do a duathlon, do a sprint triathlon, finish, and don’t finish last. This year, though, I need to get more specific. I know I need to increase my average bike speed from 17 mph to 21 mph, and bring my 5k times down from 8:37 to mid 7’s. Any suggestions on accomplishing this are welcome, but I
I used to think this way, too but after a while I found that I never struck the same weather conditions twice, which made it difficult to use times as a performace measure: Swim- smooth as glass, chop, swell, waves, cold, very cold… Run- hot, cold, still, windy, gales, rain, hills, humidity… Bike- hot, cold, still, windy, gales, rain, hills, flat tires.. I still hang out for a perfect day, mind you, and I know the exact time I want to do on it – 2:00 – but I also know that I’ll have to quit the day I get the perfect day cos I’ll never see another one! (I’ll have done that 2:00 anyway by then) Now my goals tend to be a bit more subtle. Number one: Quality training. Consistency was my biggest problem. Keeping a diary helped here. It doesnt say much, except to document what I did, how long it took, was it good or bad…days that say "skipped another" tend to stand out! You put together 8 weeks of quality training (3x a week each of swim, run, bike) and I dont care how bad/slow you were to start, you’ll be a lot better! I used to have a 6 month layoff over winter – now I dont. That made a big difference too cos it effectively saved me the 8 weeks! Number two: Smart training. Start slow and only gradually increase the intensity and duration. Stay injury free. Find your limits and stay inside them. Its not easy training "full on" in 3 disciplines. Heard the saying "train to race, dont race to train"? Number three: Learn technique. I used to think that anyone can ride a bike, swim a bit and run a bit. And its true – but I pass them. I found swimming the most technical – Join a squad. Best thing I did. Number four: Be positive. Session intensity, duration and quality will automatically fill themselves out if you have a positive attitude. We had a guy in the swim squad who used to stop when he got tired and then say "but how to I improve – I keep getting tired and the others are getting better"?! Of course you get tired – but now you’re doing more distance, faster, you fool! I know from my training times that I am improving, but somehow there are always people still finishing ahead of me…I’m not going to win, I’ve learned to live with that. I’ve just turned 35 – but so have most of the elites and they aren’t slowing down, either! Bastards I tend to focus on one race at a time, build mentally for it. I cant hold a long term goal – I cant save money, either! But anyone can have a short term goal – and when this race is over I’ll switch immediately to the next one, and then the next one… If I have a good race I’m happy. A "good" race is one I feel satisfied with my effort, intensity, pace, approach, technique…oh, and maybe my time but not usually. I’ve done enough tris to be objective about it. For example my number 1 goal for my next race on the 29th is to have a more agressive swim – I feel I’ve tended to cruise it for the first half and then by the time I’m ready to make a move its over! If I can get past that I’ll think of something else for the next race. Sorry to ramble – Hey, it *is* a lifestyle thing, you know! — __o o Jim Simmons, Lower Hutt, New Zealand ____/o__ _ |/<_ <
Has anyone heard if TRI-FED is going to change the temperature at which wetsuits are allowed? I read they were going to commission some more studies concerning hypothermia/performance vs water temperature (sorry, I don’t remember where, Triathlon Times maybe?) and don’t remember seeing anything else. Larry, do you know anything? #define ASBESTOS 1 #ifdef ASBESTOS Personally, I like wearing my wetsuit and feel much more comfortable in open water with it. A water temp of 78F does seem a bit high and I tend to get a bit warm in a wetsuit, but 72F is too close too the controversy line if the water temp can not be measured correctly. Today I swam in a pool that was 82F (sans wetsuit). Many of the older people in the pool were complaining to the aquatic staff and anyone else who would listen that the water was too COLD! I can’t imagine their reaction if the water was only 72F. #endif Todd Jensen o AT&T Bell Labs ___^o_ __o <| (708) 979-1254 _ <_
Has anyone heard if TRI-FED is going to change the temperature at which wetsuits are allowed? I read they were going to commission some more studies concerning hypothermia/performance vs water temperature (sorry, I don’t remember where, Triathlon Times maybe?) and don’t remember seeing anything else. Larry, do you know anything?
All I know is that TriFed did get $$ to research the topic at the swim flume the USOTC has in Colorado Springs. I suspect they’ll stick a rectal thermometer into a swimmer, vary the water temp and see what happens. Assuming good scientific method et al we should learn something from this. As far as when — I think I heard the research wouldn’t affect rules until ‘95. #define ASBESTOS 1 #ifdef ASBESTOS Personally, I like wearing my wetsuit and feel much more comfortable in open water with it. A water temp of 78F does seem a bit high and I tend to get a bit warm in a wetsuit, but 72F is too close too the controversy line if the water temp can not be measured correctly.
78F was picked to be safe (hypo-wise) for everyone (including 65 year olds). If you’re worried about over-heating then don’t wear the suit. Today I swam in a pool that was 82F (sans wetsuit). Many of the older people in the pool were complaining to the aquatic staff and anyone else who would listen that the water was too COLD! I can’t imagine their reaction if the water was only 72F.
See above. #endif
^^^^^^ Are you like a computer geek, or what? — LSC (aka Larry Chapman) (303) 229-3117