Question:
My husband did the GF this year, and while I was walking around lake Minneola cheering people on, I did notice a lot of burping and (heh heh) farting – more so than at other long distance races I’ve been to. I talked to my husband and a few others after the race who all felt strongly (this isn’t an anti-product slam or anything) that it was the race day drink that everyone had. Doug felt a lot better once he passed it up for plain water and the chicken broth at the aid stations. Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before? Maybe there is some sort of Great Floridian Duck that I don’t know about that was in its mating season – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson
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Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson
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I did the Great Floridian this year. My swim time is listed as 1:07:26. I had no stomach problem after I came out of the water. I had some dehydration and lack of calories problem during the early part of the run, which I attribute to not eating and drinking enough during the bike. Eric Weiss – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson
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My husband did the GF this year, and while I was walking around lake Minneola cheering people on, I did notice a lot of burping and (heh heh) farting – more so than at other long distance races I’ve been to. I talked to my husband and a few others after the race who all felt strongly (this isn’t an anti-product slam or anything) that it was the race day drink that everyone had. Doug felt a lot better once he passed it up for plain water and the chicken broth at the aid stations. Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before? Maybe there is some sort of Great Floridian Duck that I don’t know about that was in its mating season – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson
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Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson
O good friend of mine did very poorly this year and attributes it to the swim. He normally can do the distance in under an hour and it took him two, vomiting several times during the swim. Needless to say the rest of the day was shot.. He attributes it to some sort of fuel in the water, says he could taste it in his mouth several times. Definitely a possibility considering the number of boats around during the race.
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I don’t remember anything about GFT except an unbelievable sense of pride, exhilaration, and joy at having finished. If I was sick, I either didn’t notice, or wrote it off to extreme exertion at the time. John (Faith) Ft. Washington, MD
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Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before?
‘Tis "the order of things" for an IM. The stress of the race wreaks havoc on the digestive system. -Rolf — I am Iron Mac. The Ironman is over in the blink of an eye. Enjoy it! IMC’94/14:07 IMC’95/11:59 IMC’97/12:12 IMC’98/Confirmed
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I seriously doubt it was the Race Drink. We served Race Day at 60 Triathlons and about ten Road Races last summer. Every member of the USAT World Duathlon an World Triathlon teams received free product from us. In fact we gave out over 100,000 samples last year and received no comments about stomach distress. One gentleman from Mobile who did have an up set stomach thought it might have been due to a questionable chinese meal he had the night before. Not everyone can tolerate all products so you usually expect some individual sensativities to spring up, but when a large group a people seem to be burping…maybe the volunteers mixed the drink with chili sauce instead of water. I have heard of a few cases where bacteria in the swim water caused large groups of people to have the typical gastric symptoms. If anyone has a concern about the product they Tom Cox – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband did the GF this year, and while I was walking around lake Minneola cheering people on, I did notice a lot of burping and (heh heh) farting – more so than at other long distance races I’ve been to. I talked to my husband and a few others after the race who all felt strongly (this isn’t an anti-product slam or anything) that it was the race day drink that everyone had. Doug felt a lot better once he passed it up for plain water and the chicken broth at the aid stations. Did anyone else notice this, or did the strange body sounds come from a secret chili den that everyone visited the night before? Maybe there is some sort of Great Floridian Duck that I don’t know about that was in its mating season Four of my friends who did the GF this year all came down with some kind of upset stomach as soon as they came out of the water. They were not together in the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem? Mike Davidson
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Mike; I didn’t suffer from stomach upset but could smell deisel fuel periodically throughout the swim.
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i had definate stomache problems starting early on during the bike, i have no idea why, but i stayed queesy throughout the race tim hignett buaidh no bas
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the swim but after the race in talking we discovered that everyone was sick as a dog right after the swim? Did anyone else have this problem?
I found the exhaust from the support motor boats (which managed to place themselves upwind) to be quite annoying but other than that I felt alright. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I learned the meaning of life, but I forgot to write it down.
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One of my mates tossed his cookies (what was left !) three times on the run, but he doesn’t attribute it to anything in particular. I felt fine (stomach-wise) all day, but I did hear a lot of people saying the drink was pretty odd-tasting. I’ve never had a problem in any race with whatever the drink, except maybe that fizzy one (AllSport?). I thought the fuel fumes in the water was normal ! I know I’ve done a few lake swims where there have been powerboats around, and smelled the fumes, but that was a tadeoff for the possible help they could have provided ! I guess I’m just lucky. Cheers Barry
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I did notice that I passed a lot of gas during the run. Two of my friends also mentioned the same thing happened to them. Could this be due to the choline in the sport drink? Cheers, Som – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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Question:
I think Ilan is missing the main difference between triathletes and time trial’ers – triathletes train for three sports and therefore our training must be different than roadies who just train for cycling. I have yet to meet any roadie who does not have respect me or other triathletes as athletes (most intelligent ones recoginize the differences between cycling and triathlon), and I am definately in awe of how some of them perform!! I think a lot of people have this idea that roadies and triathletes are at opposing ends of a war! I know several triathletes who participate in time trails when they can fit it into their schedule, and I know several roadies who participate in triathlons on relay teams. Roadies and triathletes have many mutual interests, and mostly there is mutual respect. Alison
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5. Here are reasons not to use a Walkman: (a) It is illegal. (b) It is dangerous, as one should be listening for traffic or other hazards. (c) You should be experiencing your training, not trying to distract yourself. (d) If you train correctly, i.e., ride 22-27 mph, then you shouldn’t be able to hear your walkman over the wind noise.
Would it against the roadie code of ethics if I used walkman when I train on my rollers? Nothing beats a little hard driving speed metal to smooth out my pedal stoke and work on my cadence. – Doug – Doug
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ilan, what were you trying to say in this post? Are you just wondering aloud why triathletes don’t think the same way that you do? You could just try asking us a few questions rather than speculating about how dumb we are. We’re really a very friendly group. It’s well-known that many roadies view triathletes as a bunch of geeks, but that’s ok, we don’t particularly care. I did road racing for several years before I switched to tris, so I can see both sides. They’re two different sports, and therefore, two different approaches to riding a bike.
um…just for the record…as one who has been a distance runner most of his life (recently getting into biking), my team-mates and I always thought both cyclists and triathletes were geeks. (ignoring the fact that everyone in high school thought the cross country runners were geeks) But then I’m an M.I.T. dropout, so who am I to talk about geeks? -Jonathan M. Gladstone Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jonathan Gladstone Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Jonathan Gladstone n: Gladstone;Jonathan x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard
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I’d like to point out that I am a triathlete. I ride an Italian steel road frome with standard drop handlebars. I use STI because it is very hilly where I live and bar end shifters out on my clip-on aerobars would be absurd. I generally leave my race wheels (Campy Shamals) on my bike throughout the racing season primarily because my training wheels have Dura-Ace hubs/cassette and it’s a hassle to make the derailleur adjustments for the different cassettes. I have never had any desire to ride sew-ups because I think they’re stupid. My position is not "way forward" by trigeek standards, but it’s as forward as it is because a triathlon is a time-trial (duh). I never wear a Walkman when I ride. I maintain a consistant average cadence of 85-90 rpms except when climbing (I can’t climb for shit, despite my 39×25 low gear). I climb on virtually every single ride I do. And I descend pretty damned well. Tribaby
Okay guys, admit it…doesn’t it just turn you on when Tricia talks ‘bikey’!! 
Augie Calabrese
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I am not against triathletes, and I noted in my original posting that I have ridden with a number of excellent triathletes. What I am talking about is the separate "triathlete culture" among weak triathletes that seems to exist independent of what the good triathletes do.
Separate triathlete culture for weak triathletes??? Huh? We share a commonality of swim, bike and run. That is our culture, friend. Other than that, the differences make it interesting and worthwhile! My main point was that the biking leg of a triathlon is essentially the time trialling aspect of bicycle racing. Since time trialists in cycling don’t train radically differently than road racing cyclists, I didn’t understand why so many triathletes do train differently.
Answer in two words: three sports. Regarding my equipment observation, I have asked a number of triathletes why they used cowhorns instead of drop bars, and all but one of them had never thought about this point, then mentioned the weight savings when pressed (there is no weight savings). The one that had thought about it noted that he only does flat or rolling rides that do not require getting out of the aero bars much.
I must concur with Ilan here. I believe that triathletes tend to be trend-prone when it comes to cycling equipment. Conversly, I think that road cyclists should spend more time doing aero bar rides as this gets you to ride in an aero position for a long time and will improve your posture on the drops.
Whatever suits ya! In conclusion, my point is that there should be less of a distinction between triathletes and road racers, their equipment, and their training methods.
When we all agree on politics, religion, abortion, and whether the toilet seat lid should be up or down, I am sure harmony and peace between triathletes and road racers will exist. Until then, we will just have to live in the resulting violence of people on bicycles with differing views. -Rolf — I am Iron Mac. The Ironman is over in the blink of an eye. Enjoy it! IMC’94/14:07 IMC’95/11:59 IMC’97/12:12 IMC’98/I’m in!
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<Long winded troll deleted
Once again, Ilan is on a jihad… what it is, no one knows. Not even Ilan. Joe Cipale
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Ilan, what were you trying to say in this post? Are you just wondering aloud why triathletes don’t think the same way that you do? You could just try asking us a few questions rather than speculating about how dumb we are. We’re really a very friendly group. It’s well-known that many roadies view triathletes as a bunch of geeks, but that’s ok, we don’t particularly care. I did road racing for several years before I switched to tris, so I can see both sides. They’re two different sports, and therefore, two different approaches to riding a bike.
I am not against triathletes, and I noted in my original posting that I have ridden with a number of excellent triathletes. What I am talking about is the separate "triathlete culture" among weak triathletes that seems to exist independent of what the good triathletes do. My main point was that the biking leg of a triathlon is essentially the time trialling aspect of bicycle racing. Since time trialists in cycling don’t train radically differently than road racing cyclists, I didn’t understand why so many triathletes do train differently. Regarding my equipment observation, I have asked a number of triathletes why they used cowhorns instead of drop bars, and all but one of them had never thought about this point, then mentioned the weight savings when pressed (there is no weight savings). The one that had thought about it noted that he only does flat or rolling rides that do not require getting out of the aero bars much. Conversly, I think that road cyclists should spend more time doing aero bar rides as this gets you to ride in an aero position for a long time and will improve your posture on the drops. In conclusion, my point is that there should be less of a distinction between triathletes and road racers, their equipment, and their training methods. -ilan
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Would it against the roadie code of ethics if I used walkman when I train on my rollers? Nothing beats a little hard driving speed metal to smooth out my pedal stoke and work on my cadence.
I never liked walkman and frequently have to deal with stupid in-line skaters and joggers (even walkers too) that have them on, but I know how boring it is to be on a stationary trainer. I’m also a "metal-head", but I have a mini-boombox that I have within my reach when on the trainer. The volume can be set high, but not at a sacrifice to your alertness to your surroundings, which is basically why a walkman is dangerous in the first place. "Iron" Pete Priolo IMC’96 – 10:36:37 IMC’97 – 10:42:53 1998 Schedule so far… Gulf Coast Tri – May 9 – unconfirmed IMC’98 – August 30 – unconfirmed
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Would it against the roadie code of ethics if I used walkman when I train on my rollers? Nothing beats a little hard driving speed metal to smooth out my pedal stoke and work on my cadence. – Doug
That’s completely unsafe – you should NEVER use a walkman while cycling, even on a stationary trainer. Once I was working out on the rollers while wearing a walkman. The music was turned up so loud that I didn’t hear my wife come up behind me with a tray of lemonade. Just as she neared my side I sat up to wipe some sweat from my chest, jarring her with my elbow, which sent me careening off the rollers into a wall. Luckily I was wearing a helmet; it undoubtedly saved my life! I’ve learned my lesson! Now whenever I want to listen to music while riding, I simply hire a musician to stoke my tandem. RES (Although the newer, ventilated headphones from Bell & Giro look like they might allow more external sound to penetrate, while keeping your ears cooler. Hmmmm…)
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Ilan, what were you trying to say in this post? Are you just wondering aloud why triathletes don’t think the same way that you do? You could just try asking us a few questions rather than speculating about how dumb we are. We’re really a very friendly group. It’s well-known that many roadies view triathletes as a bunch of geeks, but that’s ok, we don’t particularly care. I did road racing for several years before I switched to tris, so I can see both sides. They’re two different sports, and therefore, two different approaches to riding a bike. Sure, it’d be great if we could fit training races into our busy schedules, and some of us do. But remember, we still have to hit the pool and the track and the trails to train for swimming and running. Not too many people can do it all. Please just keep an open mind. Thanks to the roadies on RBR who posted somewhat in "defense" of tri-geeks.
Well said Tricia. When Lasse Viren began running most of his workouts on trails in the late ’60s instead of hammering himself senseless on the track (as was the norm), he was roundly jeered (especially by all the ‘experts’ – the coaches). I guess double golds in not one, but two consecutive Olympics say that branching out or trying new methods of training is a useless endeavor!!! If more people in single mode sports were a little less haughty and a lot more willing to be open-minded, they might encourage people to really expand their athletic horizons, instead of making them want to quit (or train by themselves all the time)… Jim Harrington
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About this walkman thing, I used to pick up the odd Bicycle Guide issue, wherein there was always a page or two used to ‘get to know’ a pro roadie. One of the routine questions asked of these men was, "favorite music to train with?" I remember only one fellow responding, "I don’t train with a walkman."
i train with music all the time, on my trainer with a big ole stereo. i’m soft about bad weather so i spend much time on the trainer also get great interval workouts. btw, my favorite training cd’s are "trainspotting" "greatful dead 5-8-77""top of the stax"-this might be a good thread? On the other side of the roadie-triathlete dichotomy, I never have understood the value of dual-control levers on tri-bikes…
i find sti invaluable on short technical courses and hilly courses, i’m always in just the right gear when climbing, also while not having much money i use my bike for both training and racing and sti is great for negotiating high traffic areas and non-aero riding-i do 1/2 my training out of the areo position to ease the burden on by sometimes sore back.
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My, aren’t we stuck on ourself??? Triatheletes train differently because it is a totally different environment from road racing. Do drafting, no team tactics, and the minor fact that there is a huge swim before and a marathon afterwards! You may pass them on a downhill, but I wouldn’t get in their way during the swim or the run! JMHO Bikeboy
: I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely : differently than bike racers. My main point is that triathletes are : training for time trials and the best time trialists are usually road : racing cyclists, so triathletes should spend significant time doing : training races or group rides. Clearly there is a significant : percentage of triathletes that do this and at Triathlete Zombies in : Santa Monica, the first advice they give to aspiring triathletes is to : do group rides or even to take classes at the velodrome. Moreover, I : know a number of triathletes who do training rides, and I haven’t : heard that many complaints, except when they are at the front making : others suffer. : On the other hand, it seems that many triathletes have never heard or : thought about this and believe that since they are triathletes they : should use equipement and train like what they think is a triathlete. : This is what I have observed: : 1. Cowhorn handlebars. : 2. STI : 3. Triathlon bike with full time (clincher) aero wheels : 4. Way forward position. : 5. Walkman. : 6. Big gear, slow cadence, slow speed. : 7. Can’t descend. : 8. Never do hills. : Now, since most bike racers around LA also can’t descend, never do : hills and ride stupid gears, I will not discuss these points, except : to say that whenever I pass a triathlete going 50 rpm at 20mph in the : aero bars, and I am riding no hands at 100rpm, they don’t seem to mind. : Something like that happened to me a year ago and I stopped using aero : bars for a while. : 1. I think that cowhorn handlebars are a real misconception and most : triathletes use them because they’ve seen them used by pro’s. Cowhorns : were introduced in the 1980 Olympics in the kilometer time trial, but : the consensus was that they merely had value to psych out the : competition. They were then used on most Tour de France time trial : bikes. To me, it seems that the real point of using cowhorns is that : you have such a low stem position for your aero bars that your brake : hoods are at the same position that your drops would be, so your drops : are much too low to be used. This reasoning does not apply to : triathletes since their aero bars are usually quite high. On the other : hand, there are many advantages to having regular drop bars, : especially if the rider is doing training (as he should) over varied : terrain. The weight savings from cowhorns to drop bars is non existent. : 2. There is nothing more stupid that having a full on time trial bike : with shifters on the levers as every shift means getting out of the : aero position. Even down tube shifter are more aero and quicker to shift. : I once saw a $5000 Felt bike set up that way. : 3. I don’t see the point of using aero wheels all the time. They are : expensive and repairing one is not always possible, e.g., if it is a : composite wheel. The other point is that having full time aero wheels : makes it pretty much necessary to use clinchers, so your aero wheels : are not as fast. : 4. I have heard that the forward position is specific to triathlons, : as it is more compatible with running. On the other hand, examination : of the best time trialists in the world (ignore Obree positions) : reveals that their time trial posture is similar to their position in : the drops. This is another reason why long group rides helps time : trialing. : 5. Here are reasons not to use a Walkman: (a) It is illegal. (b) It is : dangerous, as one should be listening for traffic or other hazards. : (c) You should be experiencing your training, not trying to distract : yourself. (d) If you train correctly, i.e., ride 22-27 mph, then you : shouldn’t be able to hear your walkman over the wind noise. : -ilan — bikeboy __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____
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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers.
Umm….could it be because triathlon and road racing are two completely different sports? My main point is that triathletes are training for time trials and the best time trialists are usually road racing cyclists, so triathletes should spend significant time doing training races or group rides.
Is your main point that you’re trying to give all of us trigeeks a sanctimonious (and unsolicited) piece of advice? Sure, the best time trialists are usually road racing cyclists, but they don’t have to swim before they ride and run after they ride. We gotta train in those two sports too, y’know. And sure, training races/group rides can give you an excellent interval workout, but that’s very different from the steady, sustained effort of a time trial. On the other hand, it seems that many triathletes have never heard or thought about this and believe that since they are triathletes they should use equipement and train like what they think is a triathlete.
Is there something wrong with that? What is your point here? That triathletes are dumb? Ummm…if you ARE a triathlete, doesn’t it make sense to use equipment and train like a triathlete? This is what I have observed:
*snip* Precisely!!! This is what YOU have OBSERVERED. So now you’re going to generalize pointlessly about all triathletes. Having a nice troll through the neighborhood, eh? I’d like to point out that I am a triathlete. I ride an Italian steel road frome with standard drop handlebars. I use STI because it is very hilly where I live and bar end shifters out on my clip-on aerobars would be absurd. I generally leave my race wheels (Campy Shamals) on my bike throughout the racing season primarily because my training wheels have Dura-Ace hubs/cassette and it’s a hassle to make the derailleur adjustments for the different cassettes. I have never had any desire to ride sew-ups because I think they’re stupid. My position is not "way forward" by trigeek standards, but it’s as forward as it is because a triathlon is a time-trial (duh). I never wear a Walkman when I ride. I maintain a consistant average cadence of 85-90 rpms except when climbing (I can’t climb for shit, despite my 39×25 low gear). I climb on virtually every single ride I do. And I descend pretty damned well. whenever I pass a triathlete going 50 rpm at 20mph in the aero bars, and I am riding no hands at 100rpm, they don’t seem to mind. Something like that happened to me a year ago and I stopped using aero bars for a while.
This doesn’t make sense; what are you trying to say? I don’t understand why this caused you to remove your aero bars. having full time aero wheels makes it pretty much necessary to use clinchers,
It’s never wise to spout off about something about which you are misinformed. What made you think that all aero wheels are clinchers? so your aero wheels are not as fast.
Wait a minute, let me get this straight: You’re saying that aerodynamic clincher wheels are not as fast as non-aero sew-up wheels? Excuse me? I’d like to see you prove that one. Ilan, what were you trying to say in this post? Are you just wondering aloud why triathletes don’t think the same way that you do? You could just try asking us a few questions rather than speculating about how dumb we are. We’re really a very friendly group. It’s well-known that many roadies view triathletes as a bunch of geeks, but that’s ok, we don’t particularly care. I did road racing for several years before I switched to tris, so I can see both sides. They’re two different sports, and therefore, two different approaches to riding a bike. Sure, it’d be great if we could fit training races into our busy schedules, and some of us do. But remember, we still have to hit the pool and the track and the trails to train for swimming and running. Not too many people can do it all. Please just keep an open mind. Thanks to the roadies on RBR who posted somewhat in "defense" of tri-geeks. Tri-Baby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie
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Rick, excellent rebuttal to Illan’s arrogant comments. Sounded like Ilan had a bad case of road rash — otherwise, why so cranky? Maybe before he is so free with the comments he ought to "tri". Bet this roadie geek can’t swim a 25m, let alone force his excessively muscle bound quads into a run. In – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Some of the points are reasonable, but some are just wrong.
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Jordaan) writes: About this walkman thing, I used to pick up the odd Bicycle Guide issue, wherein there was always a page or two used to ‘get to know’ a pro roadie. One of the routine questions asked of these men was, "favorite music to train with?" I remember only one fellow responding, "I don’t train with a walkman." On the other side of the roadie-triathlete dichotomy, I never have understood the value of dual-control levers on tri-bikes…
There are times in winter when I do a three hour ride at an absolutely steady pace, often in the dark and alone, on a circuit closed to traffic. If I didn’t have a walkman I’d go insane. JT
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Observations about tri-guys: 1. Cowhorn handlebars. 2. STI 3. Triathlon bike with full time (clincher) aero wheels 4. Way forward position. 5. Walkman.
etc. etc. … 5. Here are reasons not to use a Walkman: (a) It is illegal. (b) It is dangerous, as one should be listening for traffic or other hazards. (c) You should be experiencing your training, not trying to distract yourself. (d) If you train correctly, i.e., ride 22-27 mph, then you shouldn’t be able to hear your walkman over the wind noise. -ilan
About this walkman thing, I used to pick up the odd Bicycle Guide issue, wherein there was always a page or two used to ‘get to know’ a pro roadie. One of the routine questions asked of these men was, "favorite music to train with?" I remember only one fellow responding, "I don’t train with a walkman." On the other side of the roadie-triathlete dichotomy, I never have understood the value of dual-control levers on tri-bikes… Vancouver, B.C. (remove XX from address before replying)
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers. My main point is Sometimes, when RST bogs down a bit, a troll like this one can liven things up a bit, but these days when we are enjoying all the wonderful accounts of Ironman Canada, the last thing we need is some stray tom wandering around in our neighborhood, smelling up the place with his obnoxious spray. I hope no one here gets caught in Vardi’s net; it wouldn’t be constructive or informative or entertaining in the least. Ruth Kazez
Well, it looks like you just defeated your own purpose. — Dave Bailey
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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers. My main point is
Sometimes, when RST bogs down a bit, a troll like this one can liven things up a bit, but these days when we are enjoying all the wonderful accounts of Ironman Canada, the last thing we need is some stray tom wandering around in our neighborhood, smelling up the place with his obnoxious spray. I hope no one here gets caught in Vardi’s net; it wouldn’t be constructive or informative or entertaining in the least. Ruth Kazez
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This was cross-posted to r.b.r and r.s.t. I’m responding to both newgroups. For those of you on r.b.r., please excuse the interruption. But one of your number has thrown down the gauntlet in our stretch of beach. Some of the points are reasonable, but some are just wrong. I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers. My main point is that triathletes are training for time trials and the best time trialists are usually road racing cyclists, so triathletes should spend significant time doing training races or group rides. Clearly there is a significant percentage of triathletes that do this and at Triathlete Zombies in Santa Monica, the first advice they give to aspiring triathletes is to do group rides or even to take classes at the velodrome. Moreover, I know a number of triathletes who do training rides, and I haven’t heard that many complaints, except when they are at the front making others suffer.
Triathletes are training for an event that requires swimming and running in addition to time trialing. I’ve been toasted by a few roadies. But watching them run is a true joy to someone as slow as me. There’s hope after all! I agree with the need to train with roadies, and I regularly do. I will say, however, that I’m afraid of many of the roadies I ride with. They do not have better bike skills than I do, and they don’t seem to mind collecting another few acres of road rash. I do mind, and I stay away from them. One of the reasons I race triathlons is that I’m sick of being crashed by morons who can’t (or won’t) hold a line. But when I ride in groups, I use a road bike, not a tri bike. I stay away from the riders in their aerobars, too. I don’t think, however, that I get as much out of 90 minutes of yo-yo pack as I do out of 90 minutes of intense effort. Pack riding is like interval training. Lots of jumps, but also lots of coasting and wheesucking. Lots of saving one’s strength for a sprint. Solo training, if conducted with discipline, trains endurance better than pack riding. Go read Greg Lemond’s book. He did a LOT of solo training, in addition to group training. <redundant snippage that includes admonitions against too slow a cadence which I agree with completely 1. I think that cowhorn handlebars are a real misconception and most triathletes use them because they’ve seen them used by pro’s.
<snipped "history" lesson about cowhorns You are right about cowhorns. But look at the triathletes who are going fast. Those handlebars are right down there. And the newer cowhorns have significant drop. How many roadies have I seen with handlebars positioned so that they cannot use the drops without banging their knees against their ribs? 2. There is nothing more stupid that having a full on time trial bike with shifters on the levers as every shift means getting out of the aero position. Even down tube shifter are more aero and quicker to shift. I once saw a $5000 Felt bike set up that way.
Again, look at the fast people. The shifters are on the tips of the aerobars. That’s where mine are, and I’m not even fast. 3. I don’t see the point of using aero wheels all the time. They are expensive and repairing one is not always possible, e.g., if it is a composite wheel. The other point is that having full time aero wheels makes it pretty much necessary to use clinchers, so your aero wheels are not as fast.
It depends on the wheel. Many ride Spinergies, for example, all the time because they are strong and comfortable, and more durable than conventional race wheels. I use them on my travel bike because they fit in the suitcase better. And I’ll put up my Vittoria Open Extremes, with good tubes, on Reflex rims and Record hubs (the wheels on my Eddy Merckx) up against tubular rims for virtually all riders any day. The rider who can tell the difference between the newer top-line clinchers on top-line wheels and sew-ups is rare indeed. My front wheel, with tire and tube, weighs within 15 grams of an old sew-up racing wheel (Dura Ace hub, Fiamme rim, cotton trainer). Sure a good sew-up would weigh less, but a latex tube in my clincher would make up most of that difference. But your economics argument is invalid. I’ve seen a lot more examples of stupid-light weight-weenie stuff on road bikes than on tri bikes. Triathletes tend to be older and more financially secure. Don’t be envious. I have two sets of Spinergies and two sets of conventional wheels for the bikes I ride regularly. Besides, I’ve never seen a set of Zipp 440’s (a very popular tri racing wheel) for clinchers. And the last self-righteous child who laughed at me because I didn’t use sew-ups any more was a tri-geek. My sew-ups are on my vintage road racing bike, ca. 1978, and I switched somewhere about that time and never looked back. 4. I have heard that the forward position is specific to triathlons, as it is more compatible with running. On the other hand, examination of the best time trialists in the world (ignore Obree positions) reveals that their time trial posture is similar to their position in the drops. This is another reason why long group rides helps time trialing.
The forward position allows you to get into a more aero position without being wrapped too tightly at the waist. Your gluts don’t get stretched so much, and your hamstrings get less abuse. It really helps in the run. But mainly it’s the only way to stay aero and comfortable at the same time. 5. Here are reasons not to use a Walkman: (a) It is illegal. (b) It is dangerous, as one should be listening for traffic or other hazards. (c) You should be experiencing your training, not trying to distract yourself. (d) If you train correctly, i.e., ride 22-27 mph, then you shouldn’t be able to hear your walkman over the wind noise.
Now, you are showing off. I train at 23 mph, and I regularly get dusted by the roadies I regularly ride with. And many roadies put in a good time trial–they can’t maintain the high-intensity effort for a long period. Some are rabbits–good sprinters but can’t gut it out. Some don’t have the mental toughness to stay that close to the limit with nothing but their own thoughts to motivate them. The physical qualities that make good stage-race winners make good time trialists: a monstrously high VO2 max, and extreme efficiency of motion. Those qualities are not present in every criterium winner or every short road race winner, who position themselves for the sprint using wheelsucking and team tactics. I’ve never seen a triathlete train with a walkman. That has always been reserved for ignorant non-athlete bike riders. -ilan
Rick Denney Remember–free advice is worth what you pay for it!
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: Rather than address Ilan’s many points, I wanted to add a few observations. : I moved to Phoenix from the Bay Area earlier this year and noted some : differences between the group rides. In the Bay Area, triathletes rarely : (if ever) rode our group rides, and we never rode with them. Here in Phoenix, : there are fewer group rides, and more mixing. Our Sunday ride is nearly : dead flat, and has a 17.5 mile section that is done in three groups with : mostly paceline organization. The triathletes mostly do the fastest group : and do a really great job making the ride extremely painful. Riding skills : are very good, and I’ve been really impressed by the triathletes at : covering gaps and working very hard. Ilan did a good job describing the There used to be a separation of roadies and triathletes on the club rides here in Phoenix. Then Brent Steiner and some of his friends started doing the Sunday ride. Brent won the Coors Light national biathlon series a few years back is capable of inflicting a lot of pain on a group ride. The first day he showed up one of the club riders rode up and told him (loudly) to get out of his aero bars while in the pace line. All went well, he joined the club and the mix has been going on since then.
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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers….
<odd blather from someone who sounds like a roadie snipped. Thanks for the laugh. Your post and your holier than thou, I am a true cyclist attitude are the main reason that many of us dislike most roadies. You obviously haven’t visited RST, else you would know that we are normally open minded people willing to listen to varying opinions if they are stated objectively and with courtesy. That, or you’re just trying to dangle a little flame bait so that you and your pals over on RBR can have something to talk about. Either way, try again. — Stacy Hills Reston, VA
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Well for starters triathletes don’t (by and large) want to use the same cadence as a bike racer because it would kill there legs. . . we do have to run on them as well you know. Secondly, except for professional events, there is no drafting which is the opposite of bicycling training and pack riding. While there is some benefit to training with a bike racers or at a veledrome, particularly with respect to improving one’s bike handling skills it seems that we do pretty well without As for your list I will leave that to someone else. I guess I would ask. Have you have done a duathlon or triathon. . . I would suspect not!!!
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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers. My main point is …..
..snip… It seems as though your main point was to slap the tri-guys/gals upside the head. -Mark
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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers.
I typically ride more with "roadies" and have learned quite a bitfrom them. Mostly about good riding skills and efficiency. And humility. About the time you think you can hammer, get out there with a group of good cyclists. Then watch them fly past you like you are standing still as you lead out the town-line sprint at 30+ mph, or head into some good hills. 2. There is nothing more stupid that having a full on time trial bike with shifters on the levers as every shift means getting out of the aero position. Even down tube shifter are more aero and quicker to shift.
I’ll disagree with this one. I still have down-tube shifters, and everytime I shift while in the aero-bars, I have to pause in my pedal stroke to keep from hitting my knees. kbb Kim B. Blair, Ph.D. Senior Staff Scientist 955 Massachusetts Ave., 5th Floor (617) 354-3124 ext. 18 Cambridge, MA 02139-3180 (617) 491-4522 (fax)
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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers. My main point is that triathletes are training for time trials and the best time trialists are usually road racing cyclists, so triathletes should spend significant time doing training races or group rides. Clearly there is a significant percentage of triathletes that do this and at Triathlete Zombies in Santa Monica, the first advice they give to aspiring triathletes is to do group rides or even to take classes at the velodrome. Moreover, I know a number of triathletes who do training rides, and I haven’t heard that many complaints, except when they are at the front making others suffer. On the other hand, it seems that many triathletes have never heard or thought about this and believe that since they are triathletes they should use equipement and train like what they think is a triathlete. This is what I have observed: 1. Cowhorn handlebars. 2. STI 3. Triathlon bike with full time (clincher) aero wheels 4. Way forward position. 5. Walkman. 6. Big gear, slow cadence, slow speed. 7. Can’t descend. 8. Never do hills. Now, since most bike racers around LA also can’t descend, never do hills and ride stupid gears, I will not discuss these points, except to say that whenever I pass a triathlete going 50 rpm at 20mph in the aero bars, and I am riding no hands at 100rpm, they don’t seem to mind. Something like that happened to me a year ago and I stopped using aero bars for a while. 1. I think that cowhorn handlebars are a real misconception and most triathletes use them because they’ve seen them used by pro’s. Cowhorns were introduced in the 1980 Olympics in the kilometer time trial, but the consensus was that they merely had value to psych out the competition. They were then used on most Tour de France time trial bikes. To me, it seems that the real point of using cowhorns is that you have such a low stem position for your aero bars that your brake hoods are at the same position that your drops would be, so your drops are much too low to be used. This reasoning does not apply to triathletes since their aero bars are usually quite high. On the other hand, there are many advantages to having regular drop bars, especially if the rider is doing training (as he should) over varied terrain. The weight savings from cowhorns to drop bars is non existent. 2. There is nothing more stupid that having a full on time trial bike with shifters on the levers as every shift means getting out of the aero position. Even down tube shifter are more aero and quicker to shift. I once saw a $5000 Felt bike set up that way. 3. I don’t see the point of using aero wheels all the time. They are expensive and repairing one is not always possible, e.g., if it is a composite wheel. The other point is that having full time aero wheels makes it pretty much necessary to use clinchers, so your aero wheels are not as fast. 4. I have heard that the forward position is specific to triathlons, as it is more compatible with running. On the other hand, examination of the best time trialists in the world (ignore Obree positions) reveals that their time trial posture is similar to their position in the drops. This is another reason why long group rides helps time trialing. 5. Here are reasons not to use a Walkman: (a) It is illegal. (b) It is dangerous, as one should be listening for traffic or other hazards. (c) You should be experiencing your training, not trying to distract yourself. (d) If you train correctly, i.e., ride 22-27 mph, then you shouldn’t be able to hear your walkman over the wind noise. -ilan
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Question:
The lower section of the canyon, between Scorpion and Coyote, is much more difficult than the section reviewed in the previous message. It is narrow, with a lot of huge boulders in the channel, more than one channel, etc. Not to be taken lightly, though a number of people do it safely. I won’t go into more detail because I’ve walked it (wet!) rather than floated it. Some years the river never comes up enough to run. Depends on the snowpack on Boulder Mtn (the Aquarius Plateau), and the rate of melting. When it does come up, it is usually a short time, two to three weeks max.
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Jim- I enjoyed your description of your adventure on the Escalante with your mighty Sevylor Tahiti. I was reminded of a story in Canoe and Kayak last year written by a man who had on a similar impromptu paddled the Thames down to London in a Sevylor. He recounts how he was stopped by marine bobbies who pointed out that his banana boat "didn’t seem like a very substantial craft." Although I wouldn’t want to trust my life to one, I bet that more wacky mis-adventures take place every year in Sevylor Tahitis than in all the $1500 Aires out there. Thanks for the story — We now return to your regularly scheduled programming
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My friend and I are interested in floating down the Escalante and Dirty Devil(located in the San Raphael Swell) rivers. Has anyone out there done this? matt harrison
Memorial Day weekend, 1993 or was it 1994? I floated the 26 miles of the Escalante from Calf Creek to Harris Wash. It was a totally spur-of-the-moment solo trip. It was a very cosmic trip for me, my drybag and my new Sevylor Tahiti inflatable. A short trip report on a three day triathalon: Friday afternoon, left Boulder and drove and drove and drove, bivvied off the road in the San Rafael Reef, got up and drove into Escalante. At the BLM office I assured the ranger that I had in fact blown up my boat before and that I would check back in. [If you call down to the BLM office in Escalante and ask nicely, they have a book with records of the flow at the Calf Creek Bridge - when I did it the gauge read 1.2 and that was bank to bank brown fast water.] Saturday noon I drove down the Hole in the Rock Road to the Harris Road turnoff and down that road about 6 miles to the parking lot where I hid my mountain bike in the woods chained to a tree. Then I drove back to Calf Creek and blew up my boat (for the second time!), strapped on the drybag and hopped in. The water was moving right along, very cold and a few feet deep usually. In the first mile or 2 there were 3 wire fences – usually a strand of barbed wire hanging in or just above the water. Two I portaged around, one I snuck under at bankside. Watch out, these are not covered in the Tahiti waranty! The water was pretty choppy but not particularly difficult. In one place (where Boulder Creek comes in???) the creek squeezes through some big rocks; after a heartstopping moment the yellow banana oozed through. I camped on a sandbar, not really sure where I was. After a few miles the next day I saw a skyline arch, found myself on the map and started paying attention. I stopped a few times and took some short walks up short side canyons. Midafternoon I came to Harris Wash and packed up a towering load for phase 2. Here I saw the only people I met on the river, who were headed further down stream. That afternoon I walked about three miles upstream out Harris Wash, mostly ankle deep in cool water, shaded by huge sanstone walls. The incredible beauty and solitude made me ignore the 75 pound load! I camped that night on a patch of pure white sand with three black stones arranged like a Japanese rock garden. Monday I walked the last 8 miles out of the canyon to where my bike was hidden, hid my pack, and rode up and out the wash to the hole in the rock road. About 5 miles from the highway some kids in a van took pity on me and drove me and my bike to the top of the slickrock hill from whence I and my shit eating grin laughed all the way down to Calf Creek to the car. So that was my triathalon, I certainly recommend that you get more advice from more rational and more experienced people than me and take friends and a better boat, etc, blah blah blah, but if you go, I hope the water’s flowing deep and fast and you have a great time! ps. Last year my friends wanted to go but the rangers said the flow was never going to happen. Keep checking, the peak comes and goes very fast.
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| My friend and I are interested in floating down the Escalante | and Dirty Devil(located in the San Raphael Swell) rivers. | Has anyone out there done this? | I have friends who have floated the Escalante. You need to catch it during a short high-water season, ususally in early May. My friends loved the trip. The logistics are a bit difficult. They arranged for a boat to come over from Hite Marina and pick them up at Lake Powell. The alternative is to hike out, carrying your boats up a thousand feet or so.
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My friend and I are interested in floating down the Escalante and Dirty Devil(located in the San Raphael Swell) rivers. Has anyone out there done this? matt harrison
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writes: My friend and I are interested in floating down the Escalante and Dirty Devil(located in the San Raphael Swell) rivers. Has anyone out there done this? matt harrison
I personally have not, but I recommend you read; "River Runners’ Guide to Utah and Adjacent Areas", by Gary C. Nichols, University of Utah Press, 1986 and; "On River Time", by Jeff Wallach, Sierra Club Magazine, May/June 1994, Vol. 79/No.3 (an Escalante float write-up).
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I have friends who have floated the Escalante. You need to catch it during a short high-water season, ususally in early May. My friends loved the trip. The logistics are a bit difficult. They arranged for a boat to come over from Hite Marina and pick them up at Lake Powell. The alternative is to hike out, carrying your boats up a thousand feet or so.
In a wet year like this, you might be able to float the Escalante if you time it just right. Most of the time, the Escalante is an ankle- to-knee deep stream, more suitable for hinking than floating. In the times I’ve been there (both spring and fall) you would have spent more time dragging off of bars than floating. –D. Doty
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t they invite the ladies to join them next year. They could run in their bra and Panties (thongs)!! Before you buy. Because you usually WANTto see women in underwear. The idea is to dissuade men from wearing their underpants (speedos) around town. It’s kind of a protest run. There were rumors floating around before last year’s run that some women were planning a super soaker ambush along the way – but nothing happened – lucky for us. Huddle