Question:

See, you still don’t get it. The entire purpose of the study I cited previously was to convince skeptics such as yourself. To reiterate: we were able to predict the power requirements of outdoor cycling to w/in 1-2 W (on average, i.e., S.E.E.) based on wind tunnel measurements of CdA. The reason people like yourself (and Mark Hickey, etc.) are so skeptical is because there are so many factors that influence performance. As a result, unless you very carefully isolate any one thing in particular (e.g., different clothing), the *impression* you’re left with is that such things don’t work as expected. However, this isn’t the case – it is simply the inability to separate the effect from the "noise" in the data. (This is infinitely true if your only means of testing is to simply look at pictures of riders and their final times.)

The point is, 4.5 minutes is hardly "noise".  That’s huge – beyond huge.  Enough difference that the wind noise would be different in your ears.  Enough difference that no matter what other factors changed, the improvement would be so obvious that no one would dare show up at a pro TT event without the aero tubes / bars (since anyone who tested them once would be so overwhelmingly convinced that they couldn’t dispute the enormous difference). You still haven’t said whether you actually believe that ANY of the 30 riders finishing behind Lance in the final TdF TT could have beaten him by switching to an aero frame and aero bars (assuming of course that doing so didn’t screw up their position).  Do you actually believe that or am I missing something? So, by all means, be skeptical…all good scientists should be. But it is more than being skeptical when you say "I don’t believe it" when presented with experimental data and you have no valid evidence to counter with…that’s simply being close-minded.

If I did an experiment that suggested my TT speed should be 53km/h, I’d be skeptical (heck, I’d be downright close-minded), simply because it failed a certain common-sense test. BTW, I’m not going to tell you whether I’d be skeptical because 53km/h is too fast or too slow…  ;-) Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

Response:

| | Name some. Next, name some that didn’t fly because the wind tunnel failed to | accurately measure their aerodynamic properties. | | Well, if you change "never flew" to "failed catastrophically" the B-70 | comes to mind. You must be thinking of some other aircraft. The XB-70 was quite successful in testing super-sonic flight and only crashed after an F-104 took off its vertical stabilizers. stacy hills reston, va

Response:

| | Name some. Next, name some that didn’t fly because the wind tunnel failed to | accurately measure their aerodynamic properties. | | The problem with design validation in wind tunnels is that | aerodynamics don’t scale very well.  So, if you build a perfect 1/4 | scale Belchfire X10 model, it’s not necessarily going to fly anything | like its full-size sibling.  I can’t name a bunch of aircraft that | failed in this way off the top of my head, but that’s largely because | they were never built…  ;-)  Perhaps the Bede BD12 (or was it 14?). | Yes, that is a fair comparison…a kit plane sold by a fly-by-night schuyster! Scaling problems do exist but I think most of those issues have been worked through in the last few decades. stacy hills reston, va

Response:

No, but I am the senior author on that study I quoted previously, the one that you should read before you start critiquing claims based thereon, especially since all you have is…what? your gut instinct?

Here’s a true story that you might find amusing. Many years ago my parent’s neighbor "Paul" was a professor in the mechanical engineering department at the local university. He taught all academic theory courses but in practical terms couldn’t change a spark plug on his car. He designed a large stone fireplace for his house that looked like a sort of inverted guitar. One of the best local  stone masons was a man named "Mario" who was  an immigrant from the old country. Mario had also done work on my parents house. One day he came over and pleaded with my father to have a talk to professor Paul about the fireplace that he was supposed to build. My dad was also an engineer, not a PHD in academia, but  more importantly a hands on kind of guy with enough common sense to listen to Mario. Dad went over and talked to Paul and said "look Paul, Mario has been building these things for thirty years and he says it won’t work." Well professor Paul became very indignant and defensive. He called Mario an uneducated ignorant tradesman and explained that he had a PHD and had  done all the mathematical calculations and this fireplace would work.  It was professor Paul’s money, so Mario relunctantly built the grand stone fireplace as it had been designed. I was a teenager then and remember talking to dad about the fireplace and him saying that he thought Mario was right in that the fireplace wouldn’t work. I asked dad why and he said "just a gut feeling". The first time professor Paul  lite up a fire – well you guessed it – the smoke flowed backwards into his rec room. The fireplace didn’t work just like Mario said it wouldn’t. Obviously professor Paul’s calculations were wrong somewhere. What’s this got to do with your calculations? Nothing directly, but to me, the moral of the story all these years later, is that mathematical models are quite capable of being wrong.  Or maybe it’s not the mathematic models that are infallible but sometimes rather just the people who formulate them. Not saying you’re right or wrong about your bicycle aero theories. You could very well be right, but until I actually personally test them and see the results for myself, based upon this fireplace experience,  there will be a bit of Missouri in me.

Response:

| I sure wouldn’t. A lot of airplanes that were designed in the wind tunnel never | flew. Name some. Next, name some that didn’t fly because the wind tunnel failed to accurately measure their aerodynamic properties.

The problem with design validation in wind tunnels is that aerodynamics don’t scale very well.  So, if you build a perfect 1/4 scale Belchfire X10 model, it’s not necessarily going to fly anything like its full-size sibling.  I can’t name a bunch of aircraft that failed in this way off the top of my head, but that’s largely because they were never built…  ;-)  Perhaps the Bede BD12 (or was it 14?). Andy’s posts indicate that he, Cobb, et al, have endeavored to follow this same procedure.

Perhaps so – but I can’t reconcile the conclusion that there were perhaps dozens of riders who could have taken the final TT from Lance in the TdF with a simple change to a more aero bike frame and bars. Would they help?  I have no doubt.  Would they have – by themselves – made a 4.5 minute difference over 50km?  Hard to imagine. Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

Response:

Come on… that is like criticizing the process of wheelbuilding because one ‘failed catastrophically’ when it got hit by a car!  You do know the B-70 crashed during a PR photo-op for GE when a trail aircraft (F-104) ventured too close, got caught in the vortex and promptly removed the B-70’s vertical stabilizer, don’t you?  How is this a failure to "accurattely measure their aerodynamic properties."

The vortex in question is an aerodynamic quality that they failed to predict.

Response:

(amusing but largely irrelevant anecdote snipped) What’s this got to do with your calculations? Nothing directly, but to me, the moral of the story all these years later, is that mathematical models are quite capable of being wrong.  Or maybe it’s not the mathematic models that are infallible but sometimes rather just the people who formulate them. Not saying you’re right or wrong about your bicycle aero theories. You could very well be right, but until I actually personally test them and see the results for myself, based upon this fireplace experience,  there will be a bit of Missouri in me.

See, you still don’t get it. The entire purpose of the study I cited previously was to convince skeptics such as yourself. To reiterate: we were able to predict the power requirements of outdoor cycling to w/in 1-2 W (on average, i.e., S.E.E.) based on wind tunnel measurements of CdA. The reason people like yourself (and Mark Hickey, etc.) are so skeptical is because there are so many factors that influence performance. As a result, unless you very carefully isolate any one thing in particular (e.g., different clothing), the *impression* you’re left with is that such things don’t work as expected. However, this isn’t the case – it is simply the inability to separate the effect from the "noise" in the data. (This is infinitely true if your only means of testing is to simply look at pictures of riders and their final times.) To give but one example: remember the Tailwings skinsuit, which based on wind tunnel testing was supposed to save around 1 min in a 40k TT? Well, before they were banned by USA Cycling I bought one, as did several other people I know. Their conclusion, based on the "well, I wore it, but I didn’t set a PR, so it must not work" approach, was that it was a waste of money. OTOH, using multiple trials, collection of power data, correction for differences in air density, etc., I was able to determine (at the P<0.05 level of confidence) that, at least one me, the Tailwings suit reduced drag by almost the exact amount expected from the wind tunnel measurements. So, by all means, be skeptical…all good scientists should be. But it is more than being skeptical when you say "I don’t believe it" when presented with experimental data and you have no valid evidence to counter with…that’s simply being close-minded. Andy Coggan

Response:

So, you’re basically questioning my scientific abilities, and with nothing but urban legend as your basis. Do you realize how much of an insult that truly is? Sorry fella, but I don’t know anything about you let alone about your scientific abilities. Are you another of the aero gurus that us tri geeks are supposed to follow without question just because you said it’s so?

No, but I am the senior author on that study I quoted previously, the one that you should read before you start critiquing claims based thereon, especially since all you have is…what? your gut instinct?  (See the data on the Cervelo website, for example.) Cervelo is a good company with some seemingly innovative ideas. In fact my next bike is going to be a Cervelo. However, while spending  my money, I certainly wonder who pays their engineers to make such statements.  Unfortunately my background is in medical science and not engineering. Even so I doubt that anyone really knows how this data translates into real world performance.

Au contraire, my dear fellow: we’ve shown directly how it translates into "real world" performance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much of it is just marketting hype. Read John Cobb’s chapter in "High Performance Cycling". He claims the following savings over 40 kms; standard 36 vs rear disc/composite front   1:30 ave. racing clincher vs. high perf tubular     1:38 normal fork vs aero fork                            1:16 standard barsw/clip on vs. integrated            1:10 standard frame vs aero frame                      2:36 Some of this I can easily believe, particularly the wheels and tires, but the rest of it, particualy the frame seems a bit far fetched. Botero was already giving away the supposed aero advantage of the bars and frame to Lance when he won the stage nine TT on his round tubed road bike at this years TDF. Didn’t seem to effect him at all which makes me a bit skeptical of Cobb’s claims, particularly since he gives more importance to the aero tubing than any of the other things.

I think it is foolish of you to try to make arguments based on the performance of two different riders, of unknown power outputs, with distinctly different positions. As for the claims in the chapter, the only thing that jumps out at me as being odd is the clincher vs. tubular comparison, unless the advantage goes to the clincher (lower rolling resistance due lack of a "squirmy" glue bed). The rest of it is reasonably consistent with all the wind tunnel data I’ve seen over the years, although, as I said previously, the advantage ascribed to an aero frame usually isn’t quite so large (but we don’t know what particular combination John picked for this comparison). Andy Coggan

Response:

Coming from a mostly riding/racing background, I’ll add my two cents here at the bottom. Riding up and down the coast here in San Diego, I see all kinds of riders. Good riders, bad riders, pretty much the entire range.  The one thing I’ve noticed is that 85-90% of the people out riding on expensive tri bikes could use help with bike fit.  Since we’re talking about 60% of the drag being generated by the rider, it amazes me to see people when riding their aero bikes.  I know Steve Larsen was doing some bike fits last year down here, (seemed to do a good job) but only a few people took the time to be fit. My point is: it won’t be the bike that wins you your next race, it’ll be the rider.  Yes, an aero bike is going to be marginally faster than a non-aero bike over 40k, but a more aero rider can make up more than that.  You create more drag than any of your parts put together. If you haven’t had a bike fit done, start there. The $100 you spend ($20 at Supergo in O’side) on a proper fit will benefit you a lot more than an aero bike that costs $1500+!  You’ll be more aero, more comfortable AND faster, without breaking the bank.  Once you’ve risen to your maximum potential on the non-aero bike, THEN go get an aero bike and make sure that you are fitted on that one too.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – aircraft are not "designed in a wind tunnel". Rigorous wind tunnel testing (hundreds upon hundreds of hours) is used to verify and refine the mathematical models of the aircraft that are created during the design phase. Throughout history engineers are notorious for designing things based upon their mathematical calculations that  either break or just don’t work so don’t give us this b.s. Theoretical mathematical models are far when infallible once it comes to real world testing. History has certainly demonstrated this on numerous occassions. Remember the NASA study which the mathematical calculations determined that bumble bees can’t fly. Andy’s posts indicate that he, Cobb, et al, have endeavored to follow this same procedure. And I am questioning Andy as to his statement. One of his bike’s bike may certainly be faster than the other but it certainly could be other factors than just aero tubing. If you want to believe John Cobb’s statement that aero tubing alone will make you two and a half minutes faster over forty kms then that’s your choice, but for myself, if someone is faster than me by this amount over forty kms I’ll attribute it to the engine and not the tubing. I do suggest you read chapter nine in the book mentioned.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | | |  Nonetheless, I will stand | 100% by wind tunnel testing and mathematical modeling as a means of | predicting performance out on the road. | | I sure wouldn’t. A lot of airplanes that were designed in the wind tunnel never | flew. | Name some. Next, name some that didn’t fly because the wind tunnel failed to accurately measure their aerodynamic properties.

Well, if you change "never flew" to "failed catastrophically" the B-70 comes to mind. Come on… that is like criticizing the process of wheelbuilding because one ‘failed catastrophically’ when it got hit by a car!  You do know the B-70 crashed during a PR photo-op for GE when a trail aircraft (F-104) ventured too close, got caught in the vortex and promptly removed the B-70’s vertical stabilizer, don’t you?  How is this a failure to "accurattely measure their aerodynamic properties." ???

Response:

So, you’re basically questioning my scientific abilities, and with nothing but urban legend as your basis. Do you realize how much of an insult that truly is?

Sorry fella, but I don’t know anything about you let alone about your scientific abilities. Are you another of the aero gurus that us tri geeks are supposed to follow without question just because you said it’s so?  (See the data on the Cervelo website, for example.)

Cervelo is a good company with some seemingly innovative ideas. In fact my next bike is going to be a Cervelo. However, while spending  my money, I certainly wonder who pays their engineers to make such statements.  Unfortunately my background is in medical science and not engineering. Even so I doubt that anyone really knows how this data translates into real world performance. How much of it is just marketting hype. Read John Cobb’s chapter in "High Performance Cycling". He claims the following savings over 40 kms; standard 36 vs rear disc/composite front   1:30 ave. racing clincher vs. high perf tubular     1:38 normal fork vs aero fork                            1:16 standard barsw/clip on vs. integrated            1:10 standard frame vs aero frame                      2:36 Some of this I can easily believe, particularly the wheels and tires, but the rest of it, particualy the frame seems a bit far fetched. Botero was already giving away the supposed aero advantage of the bars and frame to Lance when he won the stage nine TT on his round tubed road bike at this years TDF. Didn’t seem to effect him at all which makes me a bit skeptical of Cobb’s claims, particularly since he gives more importance to the aero tubing than any of the other things.

Response:

 Nonetheless, I will stand 100% by wind tunnel testing and mathematical modeling as a means of predicting performance out on the road. I sure wouldn’t. A lot of airplanes that were designed in the wind tunnel never flew.

So, you’re basically questioning my scientific abilities, and with nothing but urban legend as your basis. Do you realize how much of an insult that truly is?  Furthermore, I will reemphasize that my own careful field testing (far more careful than 99.99% of what other would do, I’d wager) indicates a 1:20 difference in a 40k between my semi-aero Trek Y-Foil and my full aero Hooker TT bike. I really doubt that that this could be attributed to the aero tubing alone. IMO common sense would dictate that more than likely it has more to do with rider positioning between the two bikes.

Except that the position is essentially identical on both bikes: the Scott Rakes allow me to get as low and as narrow as the Hooker aerobars, albeit w/o the elbow pads to lean on. To compensate for the difference in seat tube angle, I simply slide way up on the nose of the saddle when "hunkering down" on the Rakes on the road bike. That’s what I really like about using them: it allows me to train in the aero position whenever it is convenient, and not just when I drag out the TT bike. FWIW, the usual advantage ascribed to a well-designed aero frame (which the Hooker certainly is) over a conventional round-tubed frame (which the Y-Foil is not) is approximately 0.3 lbs of drag at 30 mph, which translates into about a 1 min time savings. (See the data on the Cervelo website, for example.) The fact that I have observed a greater difference, despite using a "semi-aero" frame as the basis for comparison, probably relates to other equipment differences as well – in particular, the use of *very* aero aerobars (the topic of this thread), vs. conventional drops. Nonetheless, I believe that this is still a good example to illustrate how, if you can make the measurements with sufficient precision, what you predict based on wind tunnel testing is revealed in the field (as our original study showed). Andy Coggan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | | |  Nonetheless, I will stand | 100% by wind tunnel testing and mathematical modeling as a means of | predicting performance out on the road. | | I sure wouldn’t. A lot of airplanes that were designed in the wind tunnel never | flew. | Name some. Next, name some that didn’t fly because the wind tunnel failed to accurately measure their aerodynamic properties.

Well, if you change "never flew" to "failed catastrophically" the B-70 comes to mind.

Response:

aircraft are not "designed in a wind tunnel". Rigorous wind tunnel testing (hundreds upon hundreds of hours) is used to verify and refine the mathematical models of the aircraft that are created during the design phase.

Throughout history engineers are notorious for designing things based upon their mathematical calculations that  either break or just don’t work so don’t give us this b.s. Theoretical mathematical models are far when infallible once it comes to real world testing. History has certainly demonstrated this on numerous occassions. Remember the NASA study which the mathematical calculations determined that bumble bees can’t fly. Andy’s posts indicate that he, Cobb, et al, have endeavored to follow this same procedure.

And I am questioning Andy as to his statement. One of his bike’s bike may certainly be faster than the other but it certainly could be other factors than just aero tubing. If you want to believe John Cobb’s statement that aero tubing alone will make you two and a half minutes faster over forty kms then that’s your choice, but for myself, if someone is faster than me by this amount over forty kms I’ll attribute it to the engine and not the tubing. I do suggest you read chapter nine in the book mentioned.

Response:

 Nonetheless, I will stand 100% by wind tunnel testing and mathematical modeling as a means of predicting performance out on the road.

I sure wouldn’t. A lot of airplanes that were designed in the wind tunnel never flew.  Furthermore, I will reemphasize that my own careful field testing (far more careful than 99.99% of what other would do, I’d wager) indicates a 1:20 difference in a 40k between my semi-aero Trek Y-Foil and my full aero Hooker TT bike.

I really doubt that that this could be attributed to the aero tubing alone. IMO common sense would dictate that more than likely it has more to do with rider positioning between the two bikes.

Response:

| |

| |  Nonetheless, I will stand | 100% by wind tunnel testing and mathematical modeling as a means of | predicting performance out on the road. | | I sure wouldn’t. A lot of airplanes that were designed in the wind tunnel never | flew. | Name some. Next, name some that didn’t fly because the wind tunnel failed to accurately measure their aerodynamic properties. You’ve obviously very little clue of the design process; aircraft are not "designed in a wind tunnel". Rigorous wind tunnel testing (hundreds upon hundreds of hours) is used to verify and refine the mathematical models of the aircraft that are created during the design phase. During and after the wind tunnel tests, all those hours of data are compared with the mathematical models. If there is some disagreement between the data and the model that is outside the range of possible prediction error then a new, exhaustive task is begun to determine the reason for the discrepancy. Is the model leaving out some effect that was assumed negligible, or is there something even more basic about the model that is in error? Or, was there some error in either the test procedure or the recording of the test condition? Nothing continues until the models and the data are in agreement. Ultimately, flight test data is compared with the mathematical models to, once again, ensure that they are correct. These tests are conducted much like the wind tunnel tests with data points taken throughout the flight envelope. The mathematical models are the lynch pin of the entire design process because they are used extensively both to design the aircraft and to determine many of the margins of safety. Andy’s posts indicate that he, Cobb, et al, have endeavored to follow this same procedure. stacy hills reston, va

Response:

I have not read the chapter that was cited originally, and 2 min does indeed sound too large for the advantage of an aero frame, which is usually found to be on the order of 1 min or so in a 40k. Nonetheless, I will stand 100% by wind tunnel testing and mathematical modeling as a means of predicting performance out on the road. (Note that I’m the only one in this debate with any quantitative data…"smell tests" don’t mean much in the scientific realm. <g). Furthermore, I will reemphasize that my own careful field testing (far more careful than 99.99% of what other would do, I’d wager) indicates a 1:20 difference in a 40k between my semi-aero Trek Y-Foil and my full aero Hooker TT bike. Presumably, the difference between the Hooker and a round-tubed bike would be even larger, but I’m not about to handicap my own performance by owning such a parachute. Andy Coggan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you doubt John’s assertions, you should read this article: Martin JC, Milliken DL, Cobb JE, McFadden KL, Coggan AR. Validation of a mathematical model for road cycling power. J Appl Biomech 1998; 14:276-291. In this study we showed that it is possible to predict the power requirements of outdoor cycling to w/in 1-2 W on average based on wind tunnel measurements. (Indeed, it is this very model that John has used in his calculations.) So you agree that any of the top 31 finishers in the Stage 19 TT in the TdF riding non-aero frames and bars could have beaten Lance if they would have simply switched to aero frames and bars?  There were an awful lot of them that would have qualified for the podium then, except for poor equipment selection… So Botero beat Armstrong – so what? That hardly disproves the influence of aero equipment, given that we don’t know A) either rider’s power output, or B) either rider’s aero drag charachteristics (although ’tis interesting that Lance is sitting up higher than he used to, and higher than Botero). If you assume that two riders have otherwise similar position on their bikes, and are riding the same speeds, the differences claimed by Cobb indicate that the rider with round tubes and bars needs to generate over 23% more power than the one on the aero bike.  23% more.  That is a HUGE number, and one that (IMHO of course) doesn’t come close to passing the ever-important common sense test. Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

Response:

If you doubt John’s assertions, you should read this article: Martin JC, Milliken DL, Cobb JE, McFadden KL, Coggan AR. Validation of a mathematical model for road cycling power. J Appl Biomech 1998; 14:276-291. In this study we showed that it is possible to predict the power requirements of outdoor cycling to w/in 1-2 W on average based on wind tunnel measurements. (Indeed, it is this very model that John has used in his calculations.)

So you agree that any of the top 31 finishers in the Stage 19 TT in the TdF riding non-aero frames and bars could have beaten Lance if they would have simply switched to aero frames and bars?  There were an awful lot of them that would have qualified for the podium then, except for poor equipment selection…   So Botero beat Armstrong – so what? That hardly disproves the influence of aero equipment, given that we don’t know A) either rider’s power output, or B) either rider’s aero drag charachteristics (although ’tis interesting that Lance is sitting up higher than he used to, and higher than Botero).

If you assume that two riders have otherwise similar position on their bikes, and are riding the same speeds, the differences claimed by Cobb indicate that the rider with round tubes and bars needs to generate over 23% more power than the one on the aero bike.  23% more.  That is a HUGE number, and one that (IMHO of course) doesn’t come close to passing the ever-important common sense test.   Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

Response:

Hooker stopped making bicycles quite some time ago, and since they probably only produced a couple hundred at best, they’re pretty rare beasts. Andy Coggan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hint: the difference is BIG. As the Hooker literature used to say, "round is slow, especially on the front of the bike". Andy Coggan Does Hooker have a website?  Hooker.com is an adult website.  And hookerbicycles.com is not found. Thx

Response:

See the VisionTech website (www. visiontechusa.com) for two sets of data, one collected by Jim Martin for Project 96, the other obtained subsequently. Hint: the difference is BIG. As the Hooker literature used to say, "round is slow, especially on the front of the bike". Andy Coggan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi-does anyone out there know the time(or drag)benefit from switching from drops,clip-ons and sti shifters to ‘aero’bars with minimal brake levers,concealed cables and bar end shifters–assuming identical rider,frame,position etc? Thanks

Response:

I suspect if you took the aero drag of JUST the frame and JUST the bar and compared you might come up with the outlandish numbers Cobb did, but when you try to model the very complex interrelationship between bike and rider when it comes to aerodynamics, it all changes (that is, it’s nice that the air flows smoothly over the bars, but then it just slams into the rider’s pelvis anyway).

It’s in black and white in chapter nine of "High Performance Cycling". I tend to think what you suggest is what Cobb might be  doing to come up with these figures. Probably based on his windtunnel test results of the individual parts by themselves. If they were true it would mean that Botero would be one heck of a superior rider than Lance to be still winning Stage 9 and giving up all that (according to Cobb) aerodynamic advantage. It’s a combo of bike and rider so I find it hard to believe that just having aero tubing, etc is going to make a rider any where near faster what Cobb claims. I think John made a bit of a gaff in that book and would like to hear his rational for these claims.

Response:

If you doubt John’s assertions, you should read this article: Martin JC, Milliken DL, Cobb JE, McFadden KL, Coggan AR. Validation of a mathematical model for road cycling power. J Appl Biomech 1998; 14:276-291. In this study we showed that it is possible to predict the power requirements of outdoor cycling to w/in 1-2 W on average based on wind tunnel measurements. (Indeed, it is this very model that John has used in his calculations.) If such hard science doesn’t do it for you, I can offer this: my field testing (using a PowerTap, but you need much more than just a power meter to get good data) the indicates that I am approximately 1:20 seconds faster over 40k when riding my full-aero TT rig than when riding my semi-aero road bike (Trek Y-Foil). Positions (Scott Rakes on the Y-Foil), clothing/helmet, and wheels are either identical or similar (30 mm deep 700 C rim on front of road bike, 23 mm deep 650C rim on front of TT bike, both w/ aero cross sections and 18 bladed spokes). So Botero beat Armstrong – so what? That hardly disproves the influence of aero equipment, given that we don’t know A) either rider’s power output, or B) either rider’s aero drag charachteristics (although ’tis interesting that Lance is sitting up higher than he used to, and higher than Botero). Andy Coggan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi-does anyone out there know the time(or drag)benefit from switching from drops,clip-ons and sti shifters to ‘aero’bars with minimal brake levers,concealed cables and bar end shifters–assuming identical rider,frame,position etc? Thanks Believe this if you want, but in the book "High Performance Cycling" , John Cobb has a chapter on aerodynamics. He claims that interated airfoil bars can make a difference of about 1:10 minutes faster than a cow horn w/ aerobars over only 40 kms. . In this chapter Cobb makes some seemingly wild claims such as an aero tubed frame being up to 2:26 faster over a normal frame over 40 kms. – and that’s just for the frame. I realize John Cobb has done a lot of work in this area and  has cult status within the triathlon community. In fact I use his "big slam" bars on my road bike and think they’re great,  but what makes me skeptical was watching Stage 9 TT in this years’s Tour de France where Santiago Botero beat Lance and won riding a  road bike fitted with small aerobars. Botrnager wasn’t even wearing a helmit. He did ride with his head down which has lead some aero theorists to claim this made the difference. If so this would suggest that rider position of the head is far more important than is all the aero bits and pieces that tri geeks love to spend their money on. Lots of other riders at this year’s TDF TT sections were on rebadged Cervelo P3’s and couldn’t get close to Botero in the TT’s. Was it the engine or is it that all these theoretical aero bits aren’t as significant as the manufacturers would like us to believe. I dunno. But it’s certainly food for thought.

Response:

Believe this if you want, but in the book "High Performance Cycling" , John Cobb has a chapter on aerodynamics. He claims that interated airfoil bars can make a difference of about 1:10 minutes faster than a cow horn w/ aerobars over only 40 kms. . In this chapter Cobb makes some seemingly wild claims such as an aero tubed frame being up to 2:26 faster over a normal frame over 40 kms. – and that’s just for the frame.

I dunno about those numbers – the DO sound awfully high.  If every rider out there riding with round bars and a frame with round tubes could improve their times by over three and a half minutes by just changing the frame and bars… there are an awful lot of riders who are "also rans" who should be state / country / world champions.   In just the last time trial of the TdF (stage 19), extrapolating Cobb’s number to the 50km course would indicate that the difference would swell to four and a half minutes! That would mean that ANY of the top 31 (!) competitors who were riding bikes with round bars and tubes could have beat Lance by simply changing to an aero-tubed frame and airfoil bars. That, IMHO, is nonsense. I suspect if you took the aero drag of JUST the frame and JUST the bar and compared you might come up with the outlandish numbers Cobb did, but when you try to model the very complex interrelationship between bike and rider when it comes to aerodynamics, it all changes (that is, it’s nice that the air flows smoothly over the bars, but then it just slams into the rider’s pelvis anyway). Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I realize John Cobb has done a lot of work in this area and  has cult status within the triathlon community. In fact I use his "big slam" bars on my road bike and think they’re great,  but what makes me skeptical was watching Stage 9 TT in this years’s Tour de France where Santiago Botero beat Lance and won riding a  road bike fitted with small aerobars. Botrnager wasn’t even wearing a helmit. He did ride with his head down which has lead some aero theorists to claim this made the difference. If so this would suggest that rider position of the head is far more important than is all the aero bits and pieces that tri geeks love to spend their money on. Lots of other riders at this year’s TDF TT sections were on rebadged Cervelo P3’s and couldn’t get close to Botero in the TT’s. Was it the engine or is it that all these theoretical aero bits aren’t as significant as the manufacturers would like us to believe. I dunno. But it’s certainly food for thought.

Response:

Hi-does anyone out there know the time(or drag)benefit from switching from drops,clip-ons and sti shifters to ‘aero’bars with minimal brake levers,concealed cables and bar end shifters–assuming identical rider,frame,position etc? Thanks

Response:

Hi-does anyone out there know the time(or drag)benefit from switching from drops,clip-ons and sti shifters to ‘aero’bars with minimal brake levers,concealed cables and bar end shifters–assuming identical rider,frame,position etc? Thanks

Believe this if you want, but in the book "High Performance Cycling" , John Cobb has a chapter on aerodynamics. He claims that interated airfoil bars can make a difference of about 1:10 minutes faster than a cow horn w/ aerobars over only 40 kms. . In this chapter Cobb makes some seemingly wild claims such as an aero tubed frame being up to 2:26 faster over a normal frame over 40 kms. – and that’s just for the frame. I realize John Cobb has done a lot of work in this area and  has cult status within the triathlon community. In fact I use his "big slam" bars on my road bike and think they’re great,  but what makes me skeptical was watching Stage 9 TT in this years’s Tour de France where Santiago Botero beat Lance and won riding a  road bike fitted with small aerobars. Botrnager wasn’t even wearing a helmit. He did ride with his head down which has lead some aero theorists to claim this made the difference. If so this would suggest that rider position of the head is far more important than is all the aero bits and pieces that tri geeks love to spend their money on. Lots of other riders at this year’s TDF TT sections were on rebadged Cervelo P3’s and couldn’t get close to Botero in the TT’s. Was it the engine or is it that all these theoretical aero bits aren’t as significant as the manufacturers would like us to believe. I dunno. But it’s certainly food for thought.

Response:

Question:

anyone have one of these for sale?  also, if you’ve had experience with them, let me know what you think!  they are legal now in all triathlons/tt’s, correct?  thanks

Response:

Hi Ryan I know for sure that they are in fact USCF and triathlon legal (and let me say it is about time someone made one). Can’t remember both companies that have them for sale currently but do remember a guy on this board called Fastrak bicycles who has them for sale in medium and large size ready to go. If you can track him down through a search he’d be the one to go with. Good luck and enjoy Kent — Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Response:

anyone have one of these for sale?  also, if you’ve had experience with them, let me know what you think!  they are legal now in all triathlons/tt’s, correct?  thanks

I have them. Thnaks Dave Lettieri FasTrack Bicycles 118 W. Canon Perdido Santa Barbara, CA 93101 805-884-0210 www.fastrackbicycles.com

Response:

I ordered one from Dave a few weeks ago; an excellent helmet, and even better service. Don

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – anyone have one of these for sale?  also, if you’ve had experience with them, let me know what you think!  they are legal now in all triathlons/tt’s, correct?  thanks I have them. Thnaks Dave Lettieri FasTrack Bicycles 118 W. Canon Perdido Santa Barbara, CA 93101 805-884-0210 www.fastrackbicycles.com

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have any experience with Promotion wetsuits. Thanks, Chip — .

Response:

Very nice quality triathlon specific wetsuits.  One of the athletes I coach recently purchased a model that sports some sort of slick coating and is consistenly out of her wetsuit several seconds faster than others (experienced folks) on our team that use big name suits.  FWIW. Bryant Howard — Performance Multisport Portland, OR. (503) 307-5963 www.performancemultisport.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have any experience with Promotion wetsuits. Thanks, Chip — .

Response:

Question:

Hello, I have been using The Triathlete’s Training Bible to train for the coming season.  I am going to do five sprint distance races this summer.  I am feeling comfortable with my training, but I am starting to get curious about how hard I should be pushing when the racing starts.  Does the following make any sense: Swim in zone 3     ( well bellow lactate threshold ) Bike in zones 3/4  ( approaching lactate threshold, but not reaching it ) Run in zones 4/5   ( just bellow lactate threshold and then going anaerobic at the end ) Any input would be appreciated. Ian Smiley

Response:

Ian: Have you tried Joe Friel’s TrainingBible.com website? If not, you’re missing it man. The personally answered questions on the message board alone make it worth the small price. And you can get a 30 day free trial subscription. Go to www.trainingbible.com. BTW, Joe’s answer to your question is on the message board at the site. It was asked on 3/10/01 by Rich Strauss (fellow club member of mine) and answered by Joe the following day. Jeff Roberts Inland Inferno Triathlon Club – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello, I have been using The Triathlete’s Training Bible to train for the coming season.  I am going to do five sprint distance races this summer.  I am feeling comfortable with my training, but I am starting to get curious about how hard I should be pushing when the racing starts.  Does the following make any sense: Swim in zone 3     ( well bellow lactate threshold ) Bike in zones 3/4  ( approaching lactate threshold, but not reaching it ) Run in zones 4/5   ( just bellow lactate threshold and then going anaerobic at the end ) Any input would be appreciated. Ian Smiley

Response:

Question:

Baby oil works great – even after a year! ……. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another wetsuit marking question: In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea. If it comes off easily, why mark it in the first place?  If it doesn’t come off, that’s no good.  If it comes off with chemicals, won’t they hurt the neoprene? Mark Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

Don’t worry – the Vineman people have the metallic pen – they do the marking. Baby oil works great to remove it later. ……. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the same question for Vineman – where do we get a metallic pen??? Another wetsuit marking question: In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea. If it comes off easily, why mark it in the first place?  If it doesn’t come off, that’s no good.  If it comes off with chemicals, won’t they hurt the neoprene? Mark Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t worry – the Vineman people have the metallic pen – they do the marking. Baby oil works great to remove it later. ……. David I have the same question for Vineman – where do we get a metallic pen??? Another wetsuit marking question: In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea.

I’m guessing that if you didn’t pull your wetsuit out of your bag you would not have to have it marked. It’s probably for identification purposes later if your suit goes astray out of your swim finish bag. At the International distance race in June they were not marking wetsuits. clm in sf — Cathy Morgan San Francisco, CA REMOVE ZZ ZZ to e-mail me.

Response:

I have the same question for Vineman – where do we get a metallic pen??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another wetsuit marking question: In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea. If it comes off easily, why mark it in the first place?  If it doesn’t come off, that’s no good.  If it comes off with chemicals, won’t they hurt the neoprene? Mark Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

Even better: Last I heard, there were only about 2,000 members of USA Triathlon. So, you could have "US" then your race number marked on your wetsuit.  (So, competitors from other countries would not be affected and could have, say, "OZ" and their local triathlon organization’s number.) Anybody paying the one-day fee wouldn’t benefit from this idea, but we can hope that the majority of them are not regular triathlon competitors. How about it?  One number for every race?  Sure would make compiling national statistics a lot easier.

Response:

Take it one step further and put your Social Insurance Number or Social Security number on the outside. Alastair – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even better: Last I heard, there were only about 2,000 members of USA Triathlon. So, you could have "US" then your race number marked on your wetsuit.  (So, competitors from other countries would not be affected and could have, say, "OZ" and their local triathlon organization’s number.) Anybody paying the one-day fee wouldn’t benefit from this idea, but we can hope that the majority of them are not regular triathlon competitors. How about it?  One number for every race?  Sure would make compiling national statistics a lot easier.

Response:

Mark: I agree with you. We have offered trade in programs on older Ironman Wetsuits in the past. Consequently, I have a warehouse filled with demo/used Wetsuits. A few of these suits have metallic race numbers marked on the suit. This explains where they came from. Your right, this metallic stuff will not come off using conventional non-petroleum based products. I will run some more experiments and keep you abreast. Marking your race number on a wetsuit with a permanent marker is not a great idea. I have competed where they mark the outside of your hand with your race number. This works well for those individuals still wearing fullsuits as they enter T1. It makes more sense then scarring your wetsuit. Besides, what are the chances of you receiving race #1182 again ?? Wait a minute, maybe everyone could buy new wetsuits after each race. Keith Ironman Triathlon Wetsuits Website: www.ironmanwetsuits.com toll free order line: 800-897-6464 international calls: 804-288-6000

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another wetsuit marking question: In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea. If it comes off easily, why mark it in the first place?  If it doesn’t come off, that’s no good.  If it comes off with chemicals, won’t they hurt the neoprene? Mark Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

Another wetsuit marking question:   In the Vineman Official Program it states that you will "have your race number marked on your wetsuit with a metallic pen on race morning".  I have to say I’m not too thrilled with this idea. If it comes off easily, why mark it in the first place?  If it doesn’t come off, that’s no good.  If it comes off with chemicals, won’t they hurt the neoprene? Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: I am curious about writing my name inside my wet suit.  I seem to remember something a while back on this newsgroup about writing your name inside your suit for identification purposes.  Is this necessary? Where inside the suit do you recommend?  I bought a white craft pen but am really worried about messing up the suit.  Does it bleed through the fabric? Thanks for any responses. Janie

Response:

Question:

I’ve decided to do triathlons to get fit.  I’ve done one (badly) but it was fun. My weakest part is the run, followed by cycle and my best is swimming. I’ve been running for 4.5 months and the best I have managed over 2.5 miles is 10.75 m/m. About 2 months ago I bought a HRM and set it to 155 bpm, but I don’t seem to be able to do more than 11.75m/m over 2.5 miles. Some background info: I am 25, female 5′3", 140lbs & vegetarian. I don’t seem to be progressing any help / advice. thanks in advance, Anne.

Response:

It will take time but attempt to do one long run per week.  Work your way to it slowly but try and get the distance up to 10 miles.  Another thing to consider is to eventually do some track work (440 sprints), I personally hate these but I think it really helps. Best of luck, Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve decided to do triathlons to get fit.  I’ve done one (badly) but it was fun. My weakest part is the run, followed by cycle and my best is swimming. I’ve been running for 4.5 months and the best I have managed over 2.5 miles is 10.75 m/m. About 2 months ago I bought a HRM and set it to 155 bpm, but I don’t seem to be able to do more than 11.75m/m over 2.5 miles. Some background info: I am 25, female 5′3", 140lbs & vegetarian. I don’t seem to be progressing any help / advice. thanks in advance, Anne.

Response:

Anne: Developing speed takes some time and work.   Try and run at least three times per week.  If possible, make one of those runs a long run of at least an hour. Don’t worry about pace.  Long runs will build your aerobic base and increase your body’s ability to burn fat for fuel. Once a week on one of your shorter runs, you can do speed games.  For instance, after you warm up(10-15 minutes), try running hard between two points followed by slow running to recover than repeat the process between two more points. You should pick points that are between 30 seconds to three minutes apart. This type of speedwork is a lot more interesting than track work because the terain always changes.  The speed play sesion will last mabye 15-20 minutes. Follow this with a warm down of another 10 minutes.  As you get more fit, you can increase the speed interval duration, however you probably don’t want the entire run to last more than an hour as the intensity is quite high.  As always, if you feel any pain you should cut back on any speedwork to prevent chronic injuries from creeping up. As for your heart rate monitor, you should go to your local bookstore and find a good running/triathlon book which describes how to properly use your monitor for the best training results. Good Luck! Howie

Response:

Question:

Here are the pro results: The Bally Total Fitness U.S. Triathlon Series July 5, Madison, Wisconsin 1. Nick Radkewich (Colorado Springs, Colo.), 1:51:21 2. Gilberto Gonzalez (VEN), 1:52:01 3. Alec Rukosuev (Apopka, Fla.), 1:52:33 4. Joe Umphenour (Bellevue, Wash.), 1:52:42 5. Michael Smedley (Colorado Springs, Colo.), 1:52:57 6. Abe Rogers (Burlington, Vt.), 1:53:01 7. Kevin Carter (Silver Spring, Md.), 1:53:16 8. Garrett McCarthy (Louisville, Colo.), 1:53:31 9. Marcel Vifian (Lawrence, Kans.), 1:53:44 10. Matias Brain (CHI), 1:53:58 11. Simon Whitfield (CAN), 1:54:07 12. Douglas Friman (Colorado Springs, Colo.), 1:54:20 13. Andrew Kelsey (Danville, Calif.), 1:55:08 14. Mark Bates (CAN), 1:55:11 15. Ryan Bolton (Boulder, Colo.), 1:55:48 16. Victor Plata (San Luis Obispo, Calif.), 1:56:35 17. Erik Burgan (Carlsbad, Calif.), 1:56:38 18. Virgilio De Cagticho (BRA), 1:57:09 19. Leandro Macedo (BRA), 1:57:10 20. Victor Perini (Cordova, Tenn.), 1:57:22 21. Derek Mitchum (Laramie, Wyo.), 1:58:48 22. Raul Lemir (ARG), 1:59:07 23. Darren Wood (Carlsbad, Calif.), 1:59:48 24. Marcin Wedlarski (Vernon Hills, Ill.), 1:59:52 25. Jase Smith (Pensacola, Fla.), 2:00:23 26. Patrick Brown (Boulder, Colo.), 2:03:20 27. Greg Thompson (Carlsbad, Calif.), 2:05:04 28. Nigel Wynter (JAM), 2:06:20 29. Paul White (CAN), 2:10:02 30. Kaley Parkinson (San Diego, Calif.), 2:10:21 31. Graham Daniel (RSA), 2:12:01 32. Andrew Holton (Galloway, Ohio, 2:13:37 33. David Greenfield (CAN), 2:14:14 DNFs included Blaire Choate, Dave Harju (CAN) and some others. Women 1. Barb Lindquist (Wilson, Wyo.), 2:03:20 2. Martha Sorensen (West Chesterfield, Mass.), 2:04:33 3. Maryellen Powers (Dover, N.H.), 2:04:58 4. Susan Bartholomew (Littleton, Colo.), 2:04:58 5. Jennifer Gutierrez (Greenwood Village, Colo.), 2:05:26 6. Gail Laurence (Manitou Springs, Colo.), 2:05:44 7. Sian Welch (Encinitas, Calif.), 2:05:57 8. Siri Lindley (Niwot, Colo.), 2:06:14 9. Laura Reback (Colorado Springs, Colo.), 2:06:41 10. Sharon Donnelly (CAN), 2:07:04 11. Angela Milne (AUS), 2:07:05 12. Susanne Martineau (Colorado Springs, Colo.), 2:07:24 13. Pamela Birsinger (Atlanta, Ga.), 2:07:36 14. Becky Gibbs (Minnetonka, Minn.), 2:07:39 15. Gina Derks (Miami, Fla.), 2:08:07 16. Lori-Lynn Leach (CAN), 2:08:15 17. Sharon Knecht (Westlake, Ohio), 2:12:57 18. Alison Hayden (Tampa, Fla.), 2:13:43 19. Lauren Jensen (New Berlin, Wis.), 2:15:19 20. Kelli Montgomery (Wallingford, Conn.), 2:16:07 21. Amy Hollingsworth (Stratton Mountain, Vt.), 2:19:03 22. Agnes Eppers (BOL), 2:20:43. DNFs included Carol Montgomery (CAN) and some others.

Response:

Keith, Try checking www.lifestylesports.com/wimultisport a little later today. QR or that site will probably have them listed by tonight. Best, Mark Mannebach

] Insidetri has some results and a race story at: http://www.greatoutdoors.com/insidetri/thisjustin/index.htm. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

Response:

CHECK OUT http://www.doitsports.com/triathlon/usts/results.html Happy tri-ing – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Keith, Try checking www.lifestylesports.com/wimultisport a little later today. QR or that site will probably have them listed by tonight. Best, Mark Mannebach ] Insidetri has some results and a race story at: http://www.greatoutdoors.com/insidetri/thisjustin/index.htm. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

Response:

I am looking for Madison USTS results.  QR does not seem to be doing a very good job at posting results on their web site. Thanks, Keith A. Folske

Response:

Keith, Try checking www.lifestylesports.com/wimultisport a little later today. QR or that site will probably have them listed by tonight. Best, Mark Mannebach

Response:

Question:

Are there any race number belt makers out there that are make custom ones… for example for a collegiate team?  I’m looking for belts that can be printed on with sponsor logos as well as the name of the school.  Sure would be a help in the hot summers here in Phoenix.  Anybody?  Hello?   Please!!!  Looking to order pretty soon. Speed is Life, Dave Chen Captain Arizona State University Triathlon Team www.public.asu.edu/~dseeburg/other/tridevils

Response:

Yes- Canyon Race Number Belts. We have ordered them with our company logo. They work well. I am still searching for their phone number. Give me a call if you are unable to locate the number from the phone directory. Take care- Keith Simmons Ironman Triathlon Wetsuits (800) 897-6464 (804) 288-600 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are there any race number belt makers out there that are make custom ones… for example for a collegiate team?  I’m looking for belts that can be printed on with sponsor logos as well as the name of the school.  Sure would be a help in the hot summers here in Phoenix.  Anybody?  Hello?   Please!!!  Looking to order pretty soon. Speed is Life, Dave Chen Captain Arizona State University Triathlon Team www.public.asu.edu/~dseeburg/other/tridevils

Response:

Question:

<computerless bicycle riding/racing thoughts deleted I concur.  I have not used a bike computer since, God knows when.   I have found that my cycling splits have improved with the absence of a computer, since I am focused on me, not on a set of numbers.   -Rolf —    Rolf "Ironman" Arands, Ph.D. (Chemical Engineering)   Dept. of Chem. and Biochem. Eng’g, Rutgers University  –These are my highly opinionated views, not Rutgers’–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I often have trouble pushing myself to give it my all during races, as I like you find myself often holding back to be sure I finish comfortably. <snip I’ll give the same advice (lecture ?) that I used to give my swimmers. For most of us, the reason we hold back (or not push ourselves) is the fear of failing (i.e. not finishing, bonking and finishing poorly, …) What you need to do is pick some mid-season race and do it for "fun".  Fun was in double-quotes for a reason.  I mean the work-hard-have-fun in some convoluted Vince Lombardi/Mark Allen way.  In other words, change your race tactics…  Push the swim hard, hammer the bike and see just how you react during the run.  Conversely, maybe you want to save it for the run and then run like a gazelle for as long as you can. It is paramount that this be a non-critical race.  Don’t worry about placing, beating your friends etc…  This is experiment time.  Mark your race calendar early so this race all-of-a-sudden doesn’t become important.   You should definitely push yourself to new places (paces). Maybe you’ll blow-up, but just maybe you won’t.  GO FOR IT! Bottom line, save experimenting for non-critical races so you can race "tactically" in the more important ones. Pat —   W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_   Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /   cis:      72410,3372        /  

Pat, Thank you, that sounds like great advice. I’m already trying to decide when/what race to give this a try!  I will probably try it in a mid-season sprint as there is a series over a course that I have competed on a number of times before.  This will allow me to gage my time vs. past and/or future performances.  I’ll report back and let you know how it works. Now do you have any good advice for achieving such an effect during high intensity workouts??? Thanks again and Happy Training. Lucy

Response:

I can tell you from experience that the opposite strategy is not a whole lot of a fun.  I’m usually in the top 10% in my age group in the swim, middle third on the bike, and bottom third on the run.  Needless to say, I rarely ever pass anyone in a triathlon!!  Now, where can I find a reverse order triathlon!

Cypress Gardens, Fl. Usually in April. (I know you were joking, but the race really is a  R B S format.) Mike Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Advertise your race. FTP Race Apps, FAQ http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

Response:

Someone earlier made a comment on not racing with a computer anymore. I experienced computer failure in a race (alright, I mounted the wheel backwards after changing a flat, 15 minutes before race start) and therefore never knew how fast I went during the bike leg. I had one of my fastest bike splits!  I think psychologically, I am intimidated by speeds above 30kph and start to tell myself that being above that speed should hurt. Indeed, my avg. speed was 35 kph althought I felt great during the race. Even though I love numbers, I am going to try racing without a computer this year, providing the race course has distance markers to at least help gauge the effort, and go by how I feel (and my HRM, if it ever decides to work on the bike). CharlesV

Response:

The same goes for swimming– where I swim right at my AT for the whole swim (now matter what the distance).  I could probably slow down 20-30 sec, save a lot of energy.  Would I recoupe the lost time in the run?  I don’t know.

A couple of years ago, I mentioned to a tri-friend that I had never done a triathlon in which, at some point, I didn’t want to get off the bike and walk home.  He suggested that I should not try to win the swim leg (as I had been doing).  That year, I just swam comfortably hard, still came out with the leaders (if not *at* the front), and got onto the bike feeling really fresh.  I had great bike legs in all the triathlons I did that year. Since the swim isn’t that important in triathlons, I think the key is to get out of the water as fresh as possible without giving up too much distance to the leaders (if your goal is to be a leader in your division). I’m cursious, how do people "plan" their various race paces or adjust them during the race?

This year (oops!  *last* year!) I tried keeping my heart rate within a certain range on the bike.  Unfortunately, each of the triathlons I did were on days with particulary nasty winds, so my heart was doing unusual things (e.g., six miles into a headwind, HR 5 beats above AT).  I try to keep my HR below AT if there are spots where I will need to work harder (hills, headwinds, etc.), so that I have some headroom to maintain speed without going anaerobic.  This worked really well at our district 40K TT:  I broke my PR by 1:20, averaged right at my AT, and didn’t feel exceptionally miserable. On the run:  I use experience to know how fast I can go for the whole distance, and I go that pace.  I use competitors in front or behind to motivate myself to pick it up the last mile or so.  I hate sprint finishes. Ken Lehner

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I have also developed a tactic which, while not really influencing my overall placing much, makes the races so much more enjoyable for me. All I do is take my time in the swim. That way I finish the swim way behind even slower racers than myself (and that’s pretty slow). From that point onward I get to pass dozens of others on bike and run. I have even had one race where I was not passed by a single person for the entire race after the swim. I get to spend the whole race reeling in others. God, I love this sport. Oh, that reminds me. I have to go log the swim workout I missed yesterday. Dave Aggett

Dave, sounds like my racing Actually I try to play a few tactics when I racing as well (I think we all do). Having a cycling background I love it when the cycling course has lots of hills and/or lots of corners and turn arounds. I find that triathletes that have not had a lot of cycling experience tend to get bogged down on the hills with too big a gear- same goes for turn arounds. I find I  can make up lost of time by having good turn arounds (I’ve done thousands of pylon turns from my TTT training) and acceleration out of the turn around. On a course with 3 loops (6 turns) you can make up a surprising amount of time. I other place I aim to make up time is cornering and the downhills. Practise and knowing your bike make the biggests differneces. My running tactics, attaack the hills and the most important ones… hang on, your almost done; you can’t drown on land cheers, jason  Jason MacDonald   Acadia University, Nova Scotia CANADA   ** Jason’s Triathlon Web Site  **                 ‘<,    ’ ,-  URL  http://dragon.acadiau.ca/~005963m/           (*)/(*) (*)/( )

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I can tell you from experience that the opposite strategy is not a whole lot of a fun.  I’m usually in the top 10% in my age group in the swim, middle third on the bike, and bottom third on the run.  Needless to say, I rarely ever pass anyone in a triathlon!!  Now, where can I find a reverse order triathlon!

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Good thread(s) A couple of thoughts.  I have picked up something from my son’s Jr. High cross country team:  In the last mile of a race, never let anyone pass you unchallenged.

snip Another more traditional view of racing from the running community is that an even pace throughout a race will generally yield a faster time than a strategy of easy then hard or some other combination.   One last little psychological game that I play, that has NO support in like to click to a higher gear right as I draw along.

snip Steve Rogers

I have also developed a tactic which, while not really influencing my overall placing much, makes the races so much more enjoyable for me. All I do is take my time in the swim. That way I finish the swim way behind even slower racers than myself (and that’s pretty slow). From that point onward I get to pass dozens of others on bike and run. I have even had one race where I was not passed by a single person for the entire race after the swim. I get to spend the whole race reeling in others. God, I love this sport. Oh, that reminds me. I have to go log the swim workout I missed yesterday. Dave Aggett

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Now that it is the off-season (at least in the U.S.), I was doing some reflecting upon seasons of past.  While there has been lots of discussion on r.s.t. about training, racing tactic type discussions have been noticeable absent.

I would hate to become a slave to my HRM but I definitely depend on it at this point. By occasionally performing Conconi Tests while biking and swimming, and having experimented during races and long training sessions, I feel I can pretty well rely on my Protrainer to keep me on track. I paid particular attention to my half way splits on run segments and though I haven’t managed t negative split yet, I am getting close and still have just enough steam to sprint the few hundred metres. Dave Aggett Dartmouth, Nova Scotia

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My best race was when I did not have any speedometer or HRM, and just went on feel.  I also started the bike a little easier, and tried to blast the first mile of the run all out.  My worst races have been when I told myself to blast the bike (my strength) from the start and wound up having to back off and getting myself mentally defeated before the run starts.   It may sound goofy, but when the going gets really tough, as I breathe out I let it turn into a low, soft growl, which slowly builds until it is quite audible, then I get a evil look on my face and pretend I am some sort of monster that thrives on pain, the more it hurts the better.  I keep telling myself more! more! more! (pain, that is).  I pick a point which I slightly doubt I can make it too before I will let myself let up, and then I go even further after that (more!).  I pretend that I am sitting in an electric chair with a dial, and I can turn the dial to whatever intesity of pain I want, but the person who has it the highest the longest wins (sort of like who can stay underwater the longest).  I keep asking myself "Can you turn it up another notch?  CAN YOU TAKE THE PAIN????" I have no idea why people call us masochists.  Save the flames. dan

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I often have trouble pushing myself to give it my all during races, as I like you find myself often holding back to be sure I finish comfortably.

<snip I’ll give the same advice (lecture ?) that I used to give my swimmers. For most of us, the reason we hold back (or not push ourselves) is the fear of failing (i.e. not finishing, bonking and finishing poorly, …) What you need to do is pick some mid-season race and do it for "fun".  Fun was in double-quotes for a reason.  I mean the work-hard-have-fun in some convoluted Vince Lombardi/Mark Allen way.  In other words, change your race tactics…  Push the swim hard, hammer the bike and see just how you react during the run.  Conversely, maybe you want to save it for the run and then run like a gazelle for as long as you can. It is paramount that this be a non-critical race.  Don’t worry about placing, beating your friends etc…  This is experiment time.  Mark your race calendar early so this race all-of-a-sudden doesn’t become important.   You should definitely push yourself to new places (paces). Maybe you’ll blow-up, but just maybe you won’t.  GO FOR IT! Bottom line, save experimenting for non-critical races so you can race "tactically" in the more important ones. Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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I I’m curious how people try and pace themselves (through the whole tri, not just each event).  What works, what doesn’t. Are there any mental games that seem to work?

 with distance I’m just a mid-packer, but I’ve found that if I’ve trained well enough that i don’t get into the spontaneous human combustible pace that you mention.  I will just play with it. What I do find beneficial though is, during the last mile or so of the race when I’m really hurting and really trying to push for the finish to look at the person in front of me and remind myself that he isn’t any faster or stronger tha I am or he would already be finished. At htis point I make it my job to take away his finishing place because i know that he is hurting as much as I am. The only difference is that I don’t care.  It’s only pain and it will all stop as soon as I cross thast line —in front of him.

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   Since aerodynamic resistance (and thus req’d power output?) increases as the square of velocity, a modest reduction in speed can allow a significant reduction in effort/lactic accumulation. At least, that’s my theory. (And I’m sticking to it. Until the next post at least.) I did make an effort to test this somewhat in later races and it did seem to yield much faster (and more comfortable!) runs. And surprisingly, my bike times were still pretty solid, not seeming to suffer much if at all for the easing off.    Anyone else been helped in the run by backing off on the bike?

Last year’s fun race for me was Wendy’s (Ohio).  It seemed the only way to be able to try something different was to remove myself from my "standard" competitors so I wouldn’t have a lot of pressure (to revert to my normal race plan). I swam somewhere around 70-80% effort.  I was still in contact with the lead group, but the swim leader was off-the-front.  This made it hard to slow down on the bike.  I settled into a low-26 mph pace.  Then Paul Barrford (sp? also an RSTer and eventual winner) came blasting past me. This motivated me to up my speed to the mid-26 mph range.  The run for me went surprisingly well.  I actually passed a few people (only one in my age group– the swimmer who went off the front) and felt strong– maybe too strong?  I was definitely amazed at how well this worked.   Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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I use some manta, like "smooth," or "glide" which I say frequently to stay in control. While trying to maintain form and control, I strive to constantly accellerate. (sp?)  This is often not possible, but try to slowly build pace throughout each leg. Gives me a feeling of confidence. I don’t mean starting out really slow and finishing hard. Rather, run 7:10, 7:10, 7:05, 7:02, 6:58; 6:55 and then run like hell to the finish. My best times always come from this kind of increasing pace. When it goes the other way around, or I run the same time throughout, it always wind up with a slower total time. Brian Sullivan

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Pat Brug writes: I’m curious how people try and pace themselves (through the whole tri, not just each event).  What works, what doesn’t.

Have a good swim and get out of the water in good position.  HAMMER the bike, hold on during the run.   How does your race strategy vary with distance?

In short races, i.e. olympic or less, food is not important for me as the amount of time I’m out there is only 1-2.5 hours in the best/worse case.  Also, short races need FAST transitions.  Practice these and take a minute or two off your time. Look at the transition times of the top ten and the difference in time with respect to places and this makes sense.  For longer distances, it is VITAL that you eat and drink plenty on the bike because you just can’t take in that much during a 1/2 marathon or longer. Craig

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I am a runner by trade.  My swimming sucks, and my cycling is mediocre (no 27 MPH averages here).  For me to have a good race, therefore, I must stay right at AT in the first two disciplines so that I can hammer the run. I have found over my 4 years of participating in multi-sports that the most critical aspect of training to achieve this is mind- numbing, cardiovascular strength.  This is instilled by a weekly 80-100 mile ride in the Bay Area hills and a weekly 14-18 mile run in the Bay Area hills.  Pat Brug has said it in the past, and I certainly echo it – work the hills, the flats will seem like a piece of cake afterwords. Of course, I mix in a weekly interval session in both disciplines, along with some tempo work.  The usual masters swimming workouts round out the rest of my copious free time. By developing such cardiovascular strength, I am able to pursue the following race tactic for international distance races: AT my way through the first two disciplines and then be able to complete the 10K within 60 seconds of my fresh 10K time – i.e. average 10 seconds per mile slower after the first two legs.  I’m not always successful, sometimes dropping up to 15 seconds per mile, but the cardio strength really pays off.  Given that I’ve been a competitive runner for over 25 years, this usually results in a last leg split that is in the top 5-10% of the entire field, even though I’m one of the over 40 gang. As a competitive runner for a quarter century, I’ve learned that when you pass someone, whether on the bike or run, you’ve simply got to make it stick.  The worst thing you can do is to let them catch up to you again, or worse yet, to pass you back.  By doing so, you’ve not only given the competitor a mental advantage, but you’ve just knocked out a big chunk of your self confidence.  Just think how you feel when someone goes by you looking fresh and confident. This is not helped so much by cardio strength, but by tenaciously doing intervals – i.e. training your body to flush accumulated lactic acid.  Sure, doing intervals helps raise your AT over time, but they also prepare you for brief accumulations of lactic acid without you going completely anaerobic; this permits you to surge by your competition without committing suicide. One last observation that is causing me to look at some different race tactics – I’ve discovered in duathlons that I can go significantly anaerobic in the first run and still be able to recover on the bike leg.  At first blush, this seems against all of the common wisdom.  But I have noticed that I can run the first 5k right at my fresh 5k time and still be able to cycle along at 22-24 mph and run the second 5k within 30 seconds of my fresh 5k time. If I am able to schedule a sprint tri this year, I will try sprinting (for me) the swim, relying upon recovery on the bike leg.  If this works, it should substantially improve my race results. Joe Sventek

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First, the shorter the race, the longer the warmup!  For sprint races I’ll warmup for 30-45 minutes, Olympic races 20-30 minutes, and anything longer I’ll just ride my bike to check out its gears and swim a little. I usually eat a PowerBar 2 hours before the start and swig Cytomax or Exceed during my warmup.  I like to get to the scene early so I can relax before the start and avoid the lengthy portajohn lines. For sprint races I’m usually racing almost flat out, flat out being the point that your heart starts to ride up into your throat 8^).  I frequently stand up on the bike to accelerate and run like it’s the last quarter mile interval of a track workout. For Olympic distance races, I usually try to "build up" my effort during each leg.  That is, I’ll start out at a relatively comfortable pace and then slowly increase my effort until I’m going almost all out at the end of the leg.  This usually means I get dropped at the beginning of most swim starts and lose some ground coming out of the transitions, but I’m usually passing people after the 1/3 to 1/2-way point.  Also, by easing into the bike and run, I find I am able to control my breathing and stretch out my legs better than if I just started hammering at my goal pace.  I try not to stand as much on the bike and save the really hard running for the last two miles. For long distance races I’m usually just surviving since I don’t really train for them.  I swim at a comfortable pace (sightseeing is more like it!), try and minimize standing and high gear ratios on the bike, and just try to stay relaxed and smooth on the run. I just started racing with a HR monitor last year and found its useful to judge what kind of shape I’m in.  When I’m sick or tired, I feel like I’m moving as fast as I can with a HR of 165-170.  When I’m well rested and well trained, I can keep my HR around 175-185 easily and feel light on my feet. Todd Jensen                                   o AT&T Bell Labs              ___^o_    __o    <| Naperville, IL                      _ <_    _

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My problem (?) is that I wonder if I’m too aggressive on the bike.  I generally can average in the 27 mph range and if anyone challenges me, then I really let go.  Subsequently, I have a relatively slow run (the infamous 4 minute 10K differential as exemplified by a previous thread).

   Holy smokes! 27 mph? Avg? You rock, dude! Seriously, I do pretty well on the bike, often having bike leg placings far above my overall, and I don’t know that I’ve ever avg’d better than 23-24 in a race. And I just read that it isn’t exactly flat where you are! Sheesh, who needs run training when you’ve got a bike leg like that?! The same goes for swimming– where I swim right at my AT for the whole swim (no matter what the distance).  I could probably slow down 20-30 sec, save a lot of energy.  Would I recoupe the lost time in the run?  I don’t know.

   This would never work for me. The faster I can force myself to go in the water, the better off I am. Early on, a full-effort swim would take something away from my bike, but this seems to be less the case as time and training progress. However, I tried something different last year.  I descended each leg (by perceived effort).  This seemed to work well and a set a few PR’s and I definitely finished strong.

   I do more or less the same. I’m no swimmer, so I just try to give it a solid, earnest effort. I can blast on the bike , but have found it prudent to push just shy of that Jordanesque panting stage, any harder brings very slow run times. Then I go fast (for me) and steady for 3/4 of the run course, and give it whatever I’ve got left from there.    I think I finally learned at Wildflower last year that hammering the bike hard just isn’t smart for me. I got caught up with another rider whose pace was quite fast but comfortable for me, and I think I paid for that during the last half of the run. Lesson: Comfortable club ride pace does not leave enough for a respectable run afterwards. Hint: Maybe I’ll try a run brick after some of those club rides this season?    Since aerodynamic resistance (and thus req’d power output?) increases as the square of velocity, a modest reduction in speed can allow a significant reduction in effort/lactic accumulation. At least, that’s my theory. (And I’m sticking to it. Until the next post at least.) I did make an effort to test this somewhat in later races and it did seem to yield much faster (and more comfortable!) runs. And surprisingly, my bike times were still pretty solid, not seeming to suffer much if at all for the easing off.    Anyone else been helped in the run by backing off on the bike? I’m curious, how do people "plan" their various race paces or adjust them during the race?

I just try to estimate what I think I can maintain. Basically following the earlier runner-type philosophy that a constant pace is best. Not that I’m particularly good at following my own advice! Great thread, thanks Pat. Kurian Davis

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My problem (?) is that I wonder if I’m too aggressive on the bike.  I generally can average in the 27 mph range and if anyone challenges me, then I really let go.  Subsequently, I have a relatively slow run (the infamous 4 minute 10K differential as exemplified by a previous thread). The same goes for swimming– where I swim right at my AT for the whole swim (now matter what the distance).  I could probably slow down 20-30 sec, save a lot of energy.  Would I recoupe the lost time in the run?  I don’t know. Another more traditional view of racing from the running community is that an even pace throughout a race will generally yield a faster time than a strategy of easy then hard or some other combination.  

This is probably true for the whole triathlon as well. However, I tried something different last year.  I descended each leg (by perceived effort).  This seemed to work well and a set a few PR’s and I definitely finished strong.  OBTW, I don’t use a HRM when I race, nor do I use a speedometer.  A few years ago, I found myself concentrating more on digital readouts, than the race itself– with predictably poor results. I’m cursious, how do people "plan" their various race paces or adjust them during the race? Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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Good thread(s) A couple of thoughts.  I have picked up something from my son’s Jr. High cross country team:  In the last mile of a race, never let anyone pass you unchallenged.  I have been on both sides of this, as a passer and as a passee.  Many times the passer is looking to demoralize and hopes that the passee will quit.  As a passee, it helps to latch onto a shoulder for a "pull" (run draft?  oops!). Another more traditional view of racing from the running community is that an even pace throughout a race will generally yield a faster time than a strategy of easy then hard or some other combination.   One last little psychological game that I play, that has NO support in like to click to a higher gear right as I draw along.  The message I want to give is that I’m feeling strong as evidenced by the audible click of the shifters.  Don’t know how others feel when I do it, but its a big lift for me. Steve Rogers

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Good thread(s): I think I am one of those people who always try to plan out a whole race before it happens.  Of course, things never work out the way that I think they will, but I keep on trying.  I am one of those geeks who has to have his HRM and his speedometer to refer to, and I am probably too much of a slave to them.  This year I’m going to try to focus more on how I feel, and worry about the numbers later.  I’ve had races where I’ve held back (esp. on the bike) at certain points out of "prudence," and later regretted it.  Sometimes you have to just forge ahead with a certain pace, and find out whether or not you can hold it. Prior to the start I try to think about all the training I’ve put in and all the sacrifices I’ve made to get to the starting line.  I especially like to think about all those really shitty, miserable workouts I endured in the winter.  The thought of all those hours on the trainer usually makes me want to get out and show what I’ve accomplished.  When I get into really painful stretches on the run I try to think about how hard I have already fought to get where I am in the race, and how I owe it to myself not to squander the good time I have already estasblished.  Of course, it really helps if you see someone you know, and can try to go after him. Steve Irish

Steve, I often have trouble pushing myself to give it my all during races, as I like you find myself often holding back to be sure I finish comfortably. I’m really training hard this winter and am hoping for a break through in performance this coming season.  Like you said enduring those winter workouts, especially when the season seems so far away, is hard. I am definitely going to try your tactic of reminding myself of these sacrifices and I’m betting that it will help me push myself.  It sounds like great advice. The one thing that I have found which works for me when the going gets tough and also that I use to push myself harder is that I focus to trying to catch the person in front of me or trying to stay with the person who has just passed me.  Although, I’m really only competing against myself out there, I find this technique helps me to push a little harder when my body says no. I’m curious to hear what others use to motativate themselves to bust it during a race.  Any comments or thoughts out there? Lucy

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Good thread(s): I think I am one of those people who always try to plan out a whole race before it happens.  Of course, things never work out the way that I think they will, but I keep on trying.  I am one of those geeks who has to have his HRM and his speedometer to refer to, and I am probably too much of a slave to them.  This year I’m going to try to focus more on how I feel, and worry about the numbers later.  I’ve had races where I’ve held back (esp. on the bike) at certain points out of "prudence," and later regretted it.  Sometimes you have to just forge ahead with a certain pace, and find out whether or not you can hold it. Prior to the start I try to think about all the training I’ve put in and all the sacrifices I’ve made to get to the starting line.  I especially like to think about all those really shitty, miserable workouts I endured in the winter.  The thought of all those hours on the trainer usually makes me want to get out and show what I’ve accomplished.  When I get into really painful stretches on the run I try to think about how hard I have already fought to get where I am in the race, and how I owe it to myself not to squander the good time I have already estasblished.  Of course, it really helps if you see someone you know, and can try to go after him. Steve Irish

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Now that it is the off-season (at least in the U.S.), I was doing some reflecting upon seasons of past.  While there has been lots of discussion on r.s.t. about training, racing tactic type discussions have been noticeable absent. I firmly believe, no matter how fast you are, how many years experience you have, everyone fights-wins-loses personnal battles during every race. I’m also confident that every rst’er has a racing tip (whether they know it or not) that many of us would find useful. I’m curious how people try and pace themselves (through the whole tri, not just each event).  What works, what doesn’t. Are there any mental games that seem to work? I’m sure everyone has come to some point in a race where they are at the "back-off-this-pace-or-die" feeling.  How do people handle this? How hard can people bike and still run reasonably well (yet another pacing question) ? How does your race strategy vary with distance? There are probably a million permutations of these.  Answer any of the above or come up with your own.  Come on r.s.t., inquirying minds want to know ! Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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Question:

This a.m. the chlorine in the pool was especially high. It felt like the inside of my mouth was shriveling up, and my silver ring turned black. I ended up switching to kicking for the second half of my workout to keep my face out. Apparently lots of folks complained … Anyway, for the rest of the day I’ve felt kind of yucky. Even a little nauseous. I’m not sure if its just my imagination …. Anyone else experienced this?

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This a.m. the chlorine in the pool was especially high. It felt like the inside of my mouth was shriveling up, and my silver ring turned black. I ended up switching to kicking for the second half of my workout to keep my face out. Apparently lots of folks complained … Anyway, for the rest of the day I’ve felt kind of yucky. Even a little nauseous. I’m not sure if its just my imagination …. Anyone else experienced this?

I am not sure if it is the chlorine at our pool or something else. but the chemicals have burned most of the hair off of our bodies and a handful of our teammates have gotten a rash. once we are out our skin smells of chlorine/chemicals all day through classes. Granted, we spend far more hours in the pools than most, but still, this shouldn’t happen. my coach is calling  a pool specialist to try and figure out what’s up because all the chemical readings come out ok. If anyone one has any insight, please let me know. tj T.J. Fry                  : "It takes a big man to cry, but Clemson University        : that man".-DEEP THOUGHTS by Jack Handy Men’s varsity swimming    :

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With both of your problems it is bit hard to analyze without me actually taking the reading. However the first move for the non swim team member is if you have not seen the health report the day you swam ask to do so. All public pools are required to have one. Look at the one from the night before, they may have super chlorinated and over shot the amount of chlorine needed. For the Clemson swimmer your health reports are only as accurate as those that are taking them I don’t mean anything by that . You may also be experiencing a high TDS level in your pool in which case you can not burn that off with chlorine and can cause the problems you are describing . I want to keep it short as I do not like reading long explantions. I am a pool Technicain for the University of Toledo and the above opinions are mine and not my employers. Oh by the way I am a triathlete also.

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This a.m. the chlorine in the pool was especially high. It felt like the inside of my mouth was shriveling up, and my silver ring turned black. I ended up switching to kicking for the second half of my workout to keep my face out. Apparently lots of folks complained … Anyway, for the rest of the day I’ve felt kind of yucky. Even a little nauseous. I’m not sure if its just my imagination …. Anyone else experienced this?

The general culprit in these instances in the pH of the water.  To low off of pH will shift the equilibrium of chloride in the water to chlorine gas just above the surface.  This generally causes the "chlorine overdose" feeling.  However, there are rare instances when the pool custodian/manager just screws up the chlorine concentration as well.  For my personal experience, after about a day or so, you start recovering. Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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