Question:

I’m finding that this course more than another has a long learning curve.  I too have been struggling with WF.  I in the past have been well prepared for it and then it bites me. This was my third time and each time I think I’m going to conquered it. But still my best time I think eludes me.  I have improved with age  7:12, 6:55 and now 6:47 I still think 6:00 is possible. I’ll be back to tackle it again. Insidious in its seductiveness is right. P/S While I’m writing this my wife says that to get to 6 hours with my small improvements I have to wait one more ag.  I maybe the youngest in my group right now in 45-49.  Always the wise guy.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I decided that I wanted no more of Wildflower or long course racing.  I might come back and do the Olympic but I’m dropping my Ironman aspirations..  Well, that was Saturday.  On Sunday, I decided I still wanted to do an Ironman but on a flat course with no hills.  But later I realized that I have to return to Wildflower and try again until I feel that I have truly been successful. So I’ll see you all there next year. *grin* Insidious in its seductiveness, isn’t it, Larry? It’s so damned hard out there.  It challenges your very spirit.  That course seems to whisper to you, "Think you can beat me?  Can you? Have you got it in you to keep going, despite all the pain I’m throwing at you?"  And then afterwards, it’s "Do you have the guts to try again?  Sure, you got around me, you kept going and finished the whole damned thing.  But do you think you’ve really conquered me?" Absolutely heinous. TriBaby                                     _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html

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Tricia, Larry and whoever else, Hey, visit us here in Canberra, Australia in late February and experience the Sri Chinmoy Peace Triathlon (2.2/80/20).  Acknowledged as one of the hardest, but most scenic long course triathlons in Australia, the whole weekend (something like eight races from 80m/500m/100m? for the little kids to 15k/400k/100k over three days for the nutcases) attracts several thousand racers. I’m taking my first stab at the Peace Tri in 2001, provided I stop being a pig and eating crap food. I even have a couple of spare beds if people are REALLY keen. Steve (back after a ridiculously long hiatus) Collins —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I decided that I wanted no more of Wildflower or long course racing.  I might come back and do the Olympic but I’m dropping my Ironman aspirations..  Well, that was Saturday.  On Sunday, I decided I still wanted to do an Ironman but on a flat course with no hills.  But later I realized that I have to return to Wildflower and try again until I feel that I have truly been successful. So I’ll see you all there next year. *grin* Insidious in its seductiveness, isn’t it, Larry? It’s so damned hard out there.  It challenges your very spirit.  That course seems to whisper to you, "Think you can beat me?  Can you? Have you got it in you to keep going, despite all the pain I’m throwing at you?"  And then afterwards, it’s "Do you have the guts to try again?  Sure, you got around me, you kept going and finished the whole damned thing.  But do you think you’ve really conquered me?" Absolutely heinous. TriBaby                                     _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html

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I’m finding that this course more than another has a long learning curve.  I too have been struggling with WF.  I in the past have been well prepared for it and then it bites me. This was my third time and each time I think I’m going to conquered it. But still my best time I think eludes me.  I have improved with age  7:12, 6:55 and now 6:47 I still think 6:00 is possible. I’ll be back to tackle it again. Insidious in its seductiveness is right.

It certainly seems to be a course that rewards experience.  You just can’t quite be sure how far you can push yourself without imploding on those hills until you really *know* those hills inside out and upside down.  This was my fifth WF Long Course, and I’m certainly still learning.  Given my size, I’m particularly proud of my improvements at WF.  The hills are utterly merciless and unforgiving.  It helps a lot to know where they’re the worst, and where you’ll have a chance to catch your breath.  Very, very challenging. Have to admit that one of my greatest victories on Saturday was finally breaking into the top half of my AG in the Long Course.  In fact, I was on the cusp of the top third (23/68).  Major, major achievement for Clyde here. WRT Larry’s remarks about the need for salt, it definitely was hot out there, despite the (merciful) cloud cover and light breeze on the run. I distinctly recall a desperate struggle to remain upright and ambulatory in the last 3 miles, though uncertain whether my condition was more bonk or heat exhaustion.  Kept cramming down the gels to eliminate the bonk possibility, but there was no ice at any of the aid stations to keep the heat at bay.  Was gratefully shocked to make it across the finish line without collapsing.  Whew! Larry, you should be extremely proud of your performance.  As others have said, the toughest ones are the most meaningful.  If ever a course could bring an athlete to his/her knees, that’s the one to do it, but you persisted.  BRAVO!! TriBaby                                     _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

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Thanks, Mike.  And everyone with kind thoughts and responses regarding my post. Persistence is it – I know the poem well.  I also know the bonk, though I managed to avoid it for many years.  My main problem was that I was craving salt and didn’t have any.  The gel and carbo drink weren’t enough.   Funny that once I started running, it was easier than powering the bike and I didn’t feel like I needed a handful of potato chips or pretzels to remain upright. If we wanted easy, we’d go on fun walks or bike tours.  We’re lured in by the challenge.  And the challenge is proportional to the probability of defeat.  Even so, the prudent triathlete trains and plans to reduce the risk of failure and stay in control.  Victory is much better than defeat – no matter how much character you build in the process.  In that respect, it’s important to set goals that are reasonably attainable. If I thought the Wildflower course was more than I could handle, I’d just walk away with no bad feelings.  But I realize that 7:03 is not a bad time – it’s just that I know I can do a lot better.   So I have some corrective measures planned – back massage before the race, ibuprofen before the swim, and something salty in my jersey pocket.  And better training.  I’ll take another shot at it and see what I hit. Larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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And about this year’s race, you had great persistence and stuck around to complete the course in not-so-friendly circumstance. There is something about these types of finishes that stand out in their own special way. For me, walking the last 12 miles at IMC in 1998 always stands out in this way. I almost dropped out, but, thanks to friends, they kept me going to the end. Persistence…

I agree with Pete. It’s the hard ones that mean more. Larry, you showed a lot by getting back on the bike and finishing – not just the bike leg, but the race. That’s the sort of determination that gets you through an IM. You could have quit but didn’t. Use that success next time you’re faced with a bad situation. I might have quit this year’s Great Floridan during the bike (I got sick about the 40 mile mark and was in misery), had it not been for my experience at the epic ‘98 IMC "oven" race. I barely made it off the bike at IMC and was dead meat in T2. I just decide that if I was going to die, it would be on the course. I managed to finish. At GFT,  it was tougher mentally to keep going on the bike. I had my IM tattoo and Finisher’s shirt. What did I have to prove? Who cared? The answer, of course, is that "I" cared and I’m my harshest critic and firmest supporter. We do these things for ourselves, period. Once I realized that I wasn’t going to let myself quit, once I got past the demons, it was simply a matter of slogging it out. When I got to T2, it was more or less "OK, you’re dead meat. So what else is new? We’ve been here. Don’t even think about it, just change clothes and get on out." Nothing heroic, just get it done.  But that came from having gone through it at IMC.  I had the confidence (maybe a bit misguided) that I could do it. Rather than dwell on how bad you did at WF, congratulate yourself on having discovered more about your limits and pushing on through them. Rest assured that you’ll benefit from that in a future race. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

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This was my second assault on the Wildflower long course.  Last year I was plagued with a backache that began early in the bike and the hills on the run course were more trouble than I expected.  I knew that this year I could shave my 6:54 time down considerably. The swim this year was much the same as last year.  My swimming is pathetic but the course is well marked and the water pleasant. This year I’ve got sandals waiting for me at the ramp and it sure beats running barefoot all the way to the back of the transition area.  Out of the wetsuit and onto the bike. A few miles into the bike course I start to feel my back tighten up.  I do some gyrations and stand and stretch from time to time.  That seems to keep it under control and the miles go by as I anticipate Nasty Grade.  I’ve been consuming calories and water but by the time I get there, I’m not feeling as strong as I would like.  The climb is tough but I press steadily on up to the summit.  At the summit, I realize that I’m nearly depleted and my back is really sore.  I poke along and finally come to the long descent.  Now to make up some time.  I top out at 45 mph and pass lots of people going down.  When it’s time to start powering the bike again, my legs are not cooperating.  There are about 10 miles to go but I’m starting to doubt that I can finish this race. With about 5 miles to go, I’m completely spent.  It’s all over.  I pull to the side and dismount.  I consume what gel and Perform and water that I have.  I’d like to lay down but it’s all gravel and weeds so I just hang on the fence.  A support vehicle comes by and the guy inside inquires if my bike is ok.  "Yeah, it’s fine but the engine is shot." Well, this isn’t where I want to die so I get back on bike.  My back is now completely tightened up and very painful.  I can barely move the pedals.  People are going by me saying stuff like, "good job, you look awesome."  If I can muster up the energy, I grunt "you too".  But I don’t believe the lying bastards – they’re just trying to make me feel better.  Eventually I get to the downhill that leads to the transition area.  I’m doubting If I’ll be able to run once I get off the bike.  DNF keeps flashing in my brain. When I arrive at my spot and put my feet on the ground, things start looking up.  I set out moving stiffly but after a few hundred yard my muscles start to loosen up and I’m moving at a 9 – 10 minute pace.  That lasts for about 5 or 6 miles then I start feeling spent again.  I’m walking up more hills but still running on the flats and downhill.  Even my walking I try to do at a fast pace.  I’ve been watching the time and I know I’ll probably go over 7 hours.  But as close as I was to a DNF, I’m very satisfied to pull a respectable finish out of it.  Crossing the finish line, I feel disappointed but triumphant all the same.  7:03:17 – still not bad for a guy like me. I decided that I wanted no more of Wildflower or long course racing.  I might come back and do the Olympic but I’m dropping my Ironman aspirations..  Well, that was Saturday.  On Sunday, I decided I still wanted to do an Ironman but on a flat course with no hills.  But later I realized that I have to return to Wildflower and try again until I feel that I have truly been successful. So I’ll see you all there next year. Larry

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But later I realized that I have to return to Wildflower and try again until I feel that I have truly been successful.

The fact that you overcame your situation and finished the race shows that you were more successful than you give yourself credit for. Look at the major races where many pros end up with a DNF . . . you had the courage to continue on despite your pain and the lure of an easy exit. Congratulations on making it to the finish and best of luck next year.

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Insidious in its seductiveness, isn’t it, Larry?

It sure is, Tricia.  The setting is fabulous, the course is challenging, and the event is first class.  If common sense prevailed, I would say, "it hurts – don’t do it."  But the whole experience is so enjoyable (I even like the camping), that I just have to give it another go. It’s so damned hard out there.  It challenges your very spirit.  That course seems to whisper to you, "Think you can beat me?  Can you? Have you got it in you to keep going, despite all the pain I’m throwing at you?"  And then afterwards, it’s "Do you have the guts to try again?  Sure, you got around me, you kept going and finished the whole damned thing.  But do you think you’ve really conquered me?"

Ain’t it the truth.  But I can take your success as a model for what determination can accomplish.  Last year you weren’t sure about cracking 6:30 and now look at you. I’ll bet you’re shooting at a sub 6:00 for next year. Woo Hoo!! Larry

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Thanks, Rob.  I appreciate the encouragement. One of the pros, Chris Golbek, finished in 7:49 – nearly 2 1/2 hours after the pro before him.  I’m sure my woes were nothing compared to whatever was holding him down.  Though I don’t fault a pro for DNFing a race that’s gone bad – especially early in the season. larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The fact that you overcame your situation and finished the race shows that you were more successful than you give yourself credit for. Look at the major races where many pros end up with a DNF . . . you had the courage to continue on despite your pain and the lure of an easy exit. Congratulations on making it to the finish and best of luck next year.

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I decided that I wanted no more of Wildflower or long course racing.  I might come back and do the Olympic but I’m dropping my Ironman aspirations..  Well, that was Saturday.  On Sunday, I decided I still wanted to do an Ironman but on a flat course with no hills.  But later I realized that I have to return to Wildflower and try again until I feel that I have truly been successful. So I’ll see you all there next year. Larry

This is typical behavior for people who do long course. Happens to me all the time. It’s like an alcoholic swearing off beer after an ugly incident the night before. And after a week, you start to entertain it again, and, whammo! You’re back on the habit again. So, will you be the first to sign up for next year’s race? And about this year’s race, you had great persistence and stuck around to complete the course in not-so-friendly circumstance. There is something about these types of finishes that stand out in their own special way. For me, walking the last 12 miles at IMC in 1998 always stands out in this way. I almost dropped out, but, thanks to friends, they kept me going to the end. Persistence… Great race report Larry.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMCAL, IMC Y2K IMC’99: 10:45:03          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

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I decided that I wanted no more of Wildflower or long course racing.  I might come back and do the Olympic but I’m dropping my Ironman aspirations..  Well, that was Saturday.  On Sunday, I decided I still wanted to do an Ironman but on a flat course with no hills.  But later I realized that I have to return to Wildflower and try again until I feel that I have truly been successful. So I’ll see you all there next year.

*grin* Insidious in its seductiveness, isn’t it, Larry? It’s so damned hard out there.  It challenges your very spirit.  That course seems to whisper to you, "Think you can beat me?  Can you? Have you got it in you to keep going, despite all the pain I’m throwing at you?"  And then afterwards, it’s "Do you have the guts to try again?  Sure, you got around me, you kept going and finished the whole damned thing.  But do you think you’ve really conquered me?" Absolutely heinous. TriBaby                                     _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

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Question:

Does Anybody Know if they’re Having the Elephant Walk Triathlon (Destin, FL) again this Year, Who’s running it, and what date it will be held on? Steve A Looking for a Triathlon? http://www.triathalator.com

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The calendars I’ve seen show that it will be held Sat, 8/26.  Contact Good Luck ~~~JBM~~~

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Question:

I’m doing the Disney half….. (OK I’m a wimp) but I’ll buy some if the man decides to do a run of them… brian Keep in mind my idea..wearing them at the disney marathon….

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ok it seems many of you know of these shorts…some like them some dont… I’m a fat slob right now..I look silly running anyhow but I’d love to own a pair.. actually I’d spring for 2 pair…who else would like a pair????? Keep in mind my idea..wearing them at the disney marathon…. perhaps if the performance you give wont get you noticed…the shorts will…   {the movie 101 Dalmations}    John Hansen  Sarasota  Fl.

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The Dalmatian shorts sounds like it is in keeping with the Disney spirit. However some of you may know Farol from Gainesville. He has had a Dalmatian costume for years. In fact we had Dalmatian head (arm) bands a couple of years ago so we could recognize each other. Dont let this dissuade you from getting the shorts, it lends to the festive atmosphere. Charlie

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I’ve never seen them, but would be in the market for a pair or two. ) Jeff Larson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ok it seems many of you know of these shorts…some like them some dont… I’m a fat slob right now..I look silly running anyhow but I’d love to own a pair.. actually I’d spring for 2 pair…who else would like a pair????? Keep in mind my idea..wearing them at the disney marathon…. perhaps if the performance you give wont get you noticed…the shorts will…  {the movie 101 Dalmations} John Hansen Sarasota  Fl.

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I guess interest in these is not to great……oh well thanks for responding any way RST ers…  John Hansen  Sarasota  Fl.

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Good try J!  I will keep asking on my end too.  I will post RST if we make them so you get first crack at them. Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

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Question:

It can’t, but as I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, it doesn’t have to…that’s what a stopwatch and a measured distance are for. Cycling is somewhat different than the other two sports, in that environmental conditions/terrain have a much larger effect on pace (well, I suppose open water swim splits might be just as hard to interpret). For running and swimming, all you need to do to know your effective output is to time yourself over a given distance. In the big scheme of things, HR is really pretty irrelevant (e.g., most of the time we don’t even bother to measure it in our research studies, relying instead on actual power output on the ergometer, treadmill speed and grade, and/or VO2). And how exactly does the Power Tap measure your output while running, or swimming?

– Andrew Coggan Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I find that email address a bit intimidating <grin, but I’m going to wade (he-he) in here anyway… : HR : actually stays fairly stable (Carl Foster just wrote a paper on this : in MSSE—I think) at LT, but power or speed can change

significantly. Didn’t you just make my point here?    The heartrate is stable at LT but power/speed are not.  So if you want to exercise below, at, or above LT, how are you going to use watts to specify the workout?

I think Sam’s point was that HR at LT doesn’t change much *w/ training*, whereas performance capacity obviously does. Tracking your HR at LT (regardless of how you measure it) therefore doesn’t really tell you how effective your training is – for that, you need to know your speed, or even better for cycling (where wind, hills, etc., have a huge impact), your power. OTOH, HR can change a lot *during a workout*, even if the physiological demand is constant. So, if you train solely by HR, you may be training at an appropriate intensity initially, but then slow down too much w/o knowing it. However, if you are monitoring power (or pace, which is what runners, swimmers, track cyclists, etc., have been doing for decades), you’ll know when your output is falling, and can adjust accordingly (increase the effort, cut the workout short, and/or pick a lower goal power the next time). But it sounds to me like you are going to specify my workout based on a scheduled amount of improvement regardless of whether I am capable of it.

I’m guessing that Sam would advocate specifying your workout based on what you are capable of doing in terms of actual performance capacity (power). Screw the HR – it is a dependent, not an independent, variable here. Or are you saying that the idea of training the aerobic system vs. the anaerobic system is not valid?

Maybe a better way of putting it is that this division is overly simplistic…I think the vast majority of coaches would argue, and I would tend to agree, that training at all sorts of intensities is necessary for optimal performance. Power (or pace) lets you do just that, whereas it is impossible, for example, to use HR to monitor/quantify/guide short-term, high intensity intervals aimed at increasing muscular power (since HR doesn’t respond rapidly enough). So he is simply going to attempt to put out N watts the whole way regardless of the terrain/wind?  I don’t think that necessarily optimizes the result, but I could be wrong.  And if what you are saying is that you simply want to average N watts, I submit the only way that measurement is going to be usable by the rider is if the course is dead flat and windless.  Nobody can integrate the area under the curve in their head in real time to determine what power they should be putting out for a given segment…what they could do however is be encouraged not to exceed LT for too long. If you are confident that real time watts on a given day can be used to prevent spending too much time in the red, then yes, it will probably work during the race as a tachometer.

As somebody with real-world experience racing with a Power Tap, I’d argue that although you’re right about many of the limitations, it is a bit more useful than the picture you paint. After just a few races I have a pretty good feel for just how hard I can go for how long, and so can adjust my effort depending on the demands of the course. I’ve also found it very useful in preventing me from starting out too hard initially, something that I expect is less of a problem for a triathlete than during a TT (I know that the first run in duathlons fatigued me enough that I was at much less risk of starting the bike leg too hard). Finally, the power data is very motivational – the goal is to never let your concentration wander, and knowing your actual power at all times is very good for that. Maybe this says it best: I like racing w/ the Power Tap so much that I just sold my Hed disc.   But I’m still not getting how it is going to work by itself as a training tool. Unless you are saying that you need a lactate analyzer to go along with it, in which case the $800 price tag is a bit specious.

Throw away the HRM, speedometer, and even the lactate analyzer, and just follow power…on easy days, don’t let your power exceed a certain value, so that they remain truly easy days. On hard days, use it to motivate yourself, and to track improvement. Basically, you’d use it the same way a runner would use a stopwatch and a track – of course you have to adjust "on the fly" depending on the response/perception/condition of the athlete, but at least you’re basing your training on what really matters, i.e., performance, and not some indirect variable like HR. I just don’t think that for the average triathlete it will magically supercede perceived exertion, HRMs, RHR/LT/AT/VO2MAX related zone training, etc.

I don’t think that it will, either. Or maybe I should say that it shouldn’t – it *might*, just like people have gotten way too carried away (IMHO) with HR-based "zone" training programs. And, we’ll be waiting a while for versions that attach to Zoomers and Sauconys.

I know this was meant in jest, but if I took you seriously my response would be "Why? You’ve already got what you need there, and that’s a stopwatch." Andrew Coggan Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Oh Lord. I hope these things never become affordable. I can see my Wednesday evening Spinervals workouts with Coach Troy now – everyone has to match the top wattage generator in the room. Who can get the largest sweat puddle is the normal contest, or who has the highest cadence without bouncing right off his/her bike. While we’re talking wattage, why doesn’t Bally’s hook all of those damned stationary bikes, stairmasters, and elliptical trainers to the electrical system in the workout room to provide electricity for all of those fancy neon lights and TV screens they’ve got going? What a waste of energy. You should be required to provide the electricity for the radios and TV’s you watch while working out.  That would be great! Can’t watch the tube unless you pedal to power the tube. Schwing

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Was over at Joe Friel’s house this weekend where he showed me his : latest/greatest training device.  A rear wheel with technology : built into the hub that measured and recorded wattage output. His : computer measured average watt’s generated per hour and max. : wattage during the ride.  Joe’s opinion is that wattage training : will supercede what is now being done with heart rate monitors. : My only two comments here are: : 1) If this is important to you, start saving your pennies.  Current :    price for this rear wheel is ~$800. : 2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it :    sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past. Do you really mean supercede, or do you mean complement? I know Andrew likes his power tap and I can certainly see how it would be very informative, even useful, but how can you train the human body based solely on the amount of power it puts out and ignore its own internal metrics (whether you measure them via perceived exertion or actual heart rate)?   Is my coach going to (only) say "OK go ride today for 2 hours at 250 watts"? What if I can’t hold the power output today.  What if I can and in fact it’s too easy?  Where did the 250 watt figure come from?  I see the possible benefit in adjusting your training for terrain or wind (ie it would help you maintain a constant level of output when you hit a hill), but don’t exactly see how it will be used to _set_ those levels in the absence of other information.  Sure you can find an initial watt reading for an all out 40K TT, and call that the equivalent of Anaerobic Threshold for that individual, but then what do you do?   Specifiy training at, above and below that wattage without regard to how the body is reacting? Do people use Computrainers without HRMs or perceived exertion monitoring?  In what way? Of course, I have no CT, hardly ever wear my HRM, and so don’t really care, this is largely rhetorical.  I’m all about perceived exertion, and none too scientific about even that anymore.  It’s more like perceived pain, and more importantly perceived lack of pain.  Which could be why I suck.  An $800 device that would put me in the next age group 2 years early, that I could use . Wade

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Who can get the largest sweat puddle is the normal contest,

Sorry to get perhaps too serious, but people who train indoors and judge the quality of their workout by the amount of sweat are in for a big shock if they get the PowerTap (or use a Computrainer indoors, as I do).  If the cool the room enough so no sweat puddles underneath you you can achieve far greater power efforts at any particular perceived exertion or heartrate than if the room temperature and lack of ventilation allow a lot of sweat to drip. That said, I suppose with all of you and "Coach Troy" in the same, too hot, room, relative amounts of sweat _might_ show who is working harder. JT Visit http://www.jt10000.com/ Cycling, Food and Stories

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Some of our Spinverals participants have been known to squirt water from their water bottle onto the floor when Coach Troy isn’t looking! Not me, of course <g And yes, that room is stinky and hot! If you walk into it during the middle of spinervals the impression is that of burning rubber and body odor! If you were ever wondering what the trainer did to your rear tire you wouldn’t wonder anymore after that smell. Yuch. If you start out in there, fortunately you don’t notice it. BTW, I’ll be making my film debut in the very near future with the release of the next Spinervals video! (if I don’t get cut out) Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That said, I suppose with all of you and "Coach Troy" in the same, too hot, room, relative amounts of sweat _might_ show who is working harder. JT Visit http://www.jt10000.com/ Cycling, Food and Stories

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Some of our Spinverals participants have been known to squirt water from their water bottle onto the floor when Coach Troy isn’t looking! Not me, of course <g And yes, that room is stinky and hot! If you walk into it during the middle of spinervals the impression is that of burning rubber and body odor! If you were ever wondering what the trainer did to your rear tire you wouldn’t wonder anymore after that smell. Yuch. If you start out in there, fortunately you don’t notice it.

Sorry to get too serious <again but if you smell burning rubber you need to increase the contact between the tire and trainer-roller to prevent slippage.  That will fix the "problem", though it sounds like you guys enjoy it. JT Visit http://www.jt10000.com/ Cycling, Food and Stories

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While I’d totally agree that for cycling power output measurement is better than using an HRM, unfortunately that’s only one part of the triathlon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was over at Joe Friel’s house this weekend where he showed me his latest/greatest training device.  A rear wheel with technology built into the hub that measured and recorded wattage output. His computer measured average watt’s generated per hour and max. wattage during the ride.  Joe’s opinion is that wattage training will supercede what is now being done with heart rate monitors. My only two comments here are: 1) If this is important to you, start saving your pennies.  Current    price for this rear wheel is ~$800. 2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it    sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past.  Rich Davis  Home Page: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~twm/TTH.html

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They were talking about it and showing it on the TV coverage of the HP race in Idaho. The coverage sucked ( awhole tour shown in an hour), but it was great it was on TV. And even cooler that it was on after coverage of Alcatraz. Great day of TV. Only thing that ruined a great triathlon of viewing was the TDF was not shown due to the Golf game ;-(. And golf is not really a sport after all. Ted

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I took the USAT coaching certification last month, and Joe Friel presented this unit to us, as well.  I haven’t yet picked one up to try, but it appears to be the standard of the future. Yesterday, in the women’s challenge cycling race, one of the women was using it, and the sportscaster attempted to explain its use .  The resulting measurement is referred to as ‘Power". It will be interesting to see if and when this hits the mainstream. Apparently, it is a reliable training tool for coaching. The Heart Rate is part of the 3 line display. ..  Joe’s opinion is that wattage training will supercede what is now being done with heart rate monitors. My only two comments here are: 1) If this is important to you, start saving your pennies.  Current    price for this rear wheel is ~$800. 2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it    sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past.

I’ve purchase 4 or 5 of these, but each time I do, the tech changes, and I always buy the newer model.

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I know Andrew likes his power tap and I can certainly see how it would be very informative, even useful, but how can you train the human body based solely on the amount of power it puts out and ignore its own internal metrics (whether you measure them via perceived exertion or actual heart rate)?   Is my coach going to (only) say "OK go ride today for 2 hours at 250 watts"?   What if I can’t hold the power output today.  What if I can and in fact it’s too easy?  Where did the 250 watt figure come from?

        What if the coach says I want you to ride for 2 hours at 150 bpm and you cannot hold it?  The same answer as with the power, you are fried and need to back off.  Same thing if it is too easy, that does not mean that you shuck your training plan.  The 250W (or whatever) comes from testing such as in the lab or from field testin. Where does your HR come from?     I see the possible benefit in adjusting your training for terrain or wind (ie it would help you maintain a constant level of output when you hit a hill), but don’t exactly see how it will be used to _set_ those levels in the absence of other information.  Sure you can find an initial watt reading for an all out 40K TT, and call that the equivalent of Anaerobic Threshold for that individual, but then what do you do?   Specifiy training at, above and below that wattage without regard to how the body is reacting?

        So do you always follow your HR?   If you are struggling yet your HRM says you are right where you are supposed to be, what do you do?  Do you follow your HR without regarding how your body is doing?         I have done a lot of lab testing on cycling and triathletes and find the power output at lactate threshold (the anaerobic threshold is neither:) to be the best indicator of improvement.  HR actually stays fairly stable (Carl Foster just wrote a paper on this in MSSE—I think) at LT, but power or speed can change significantly. Do people use Computrainers without HRMs or perceived exertion monitoring?  In what way?

        Yes.         In short, power is what matters in cycling.  With the effects of cardiac drift and the differences reported by Noakes and others on HR in lab or field testing vs. races, HR seems to have a lot of variables.  Boulay reported that in order to maintain the target HR for a time trial, the work load had to be reduced 17%!  So if you follow your HR, you will have to progressively slow down in order to maintain that HR.   In a competitive situation, if you need to average 480W (which is probably close to what Lance average during his spectacular TT) to win a race, then you need to average that regardless of what the HR says.  Power can be used as a threshold as easily and sometimes better than HR, IMHO.           Power meters will be the next gadget once some things get work out like the ability to put the Power Tap on a disc wheel (in the works I hear) and the price comes down which it will.  They also need to make a download system. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Of course, I have no CT, hardly ever wear my HRM, and so don’t really care, this is largely rhetorical.  I’m all about perceived exertion, and none too scientific about even that anymore.  It’s more like perceived pain, and more importantly perceived lack of pain.  Which could be why I suck.  An $800 device that would put me in the next age group 2 years early, that I could use . Wade  

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: I find that email address a bit intimidating <grin, but I’m going to : wade (he-he) in here anyway… Don’t be intimidated – it’s a misleading address.  I really live on hobbes.ucsd.edu (UCSD vs SDSU, now that’s another matter – luckily UCSD has no football team so the rivalry is relatively benign) – I studied Economics at UCSD, Computer Science at SDSU, my physiology credentials are nonexistent and my cycling and triathlon performance credentials are quite…amateurish. I read the lay literature and do better (relatively speaking) in the cycling leg of most of my races but that’s about it. (The sciences host used to be called ’saturn’ when my grad student account appeared there way back when and even though these days I work at UCSD, I still use the SDSU account for news since it has a more consistent feed for some reason.) So, blaze away….your reply was splendid and clarified things. Wade Blomgren ps. regarding the swim/run power measure and you saying we already have one (stopwatch), you are quite right.  In fact I find myself doing much of my run speedwork using pace rather than HR, and of course the swim is the same way. So, you see, I’m on board with this, my devil’s advocate mood swings notwithstanding.

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: call that the equivalent of Anaerobic Threshold for that : individual, but then what do you do?   Specifiy training at, : above and below that wattage without regard to how the body is : reacting? :       So do you always follow your HR?   If you are struggling yet : your HRM says you are right where you are supposed to be, what do you : do?  Do you follow your HR without regarding how your body is doing? Actually I hardly follow it at all these days, I’m just arguing for argument’s sake : and find the power output at lactate threshold (the anaerobic : threshold is neither:) to be the best indicator of improvement.  HR : actually stays fairly stable (Carl Foster just wrote a paper on this : in MSSE—I think) at LT, but power or speed can change significantly. Didn’t you just make my point here?    The heartrate is stable at LT but power/speed are not.  So if you want to exercise below, at, or above LT, how are you going to use watts to specify the workout?   Increased power at LT indicates improvement…  of course it does!   But it sounds to me like you are going to specify my workout based on a scheduled amount of improvement regardless of whether I am capable of it.  Or are you saying that the idea of training the aerobic system vs. the anaerobic system is not valid? : maintain that HR.   In a competitive situation, if you need to average : 480W (which is probably close to what Lance average during his : spectacular TT) to win a race, then you need to average that : regardless of what the HR says.   So he is simply going to attempt to put out N watts the whole way regardless of the terrain/wind?  I don’t think that necessarily optimizes the result, but I could be wrong.  And if what you are saying is that you simply want to average N watts, I submit the only way that measurement is going to be usable by the rider is if the course is dead flat and windless.  Nobody can integrate the area under the curve in their head in real time to determine what power they should be putting out for a given segment…what they could do however is be encouraged not to exceed LT for too long. If you are confident that real time watts on a given day can be used to prevent spending too much time in the red, then yes, it will probably work during the race as a tachometer.   But I’m still not getting how it is going to work by itself as a training tool.  Unless you are saying that you need a lactate analyzer to go along with it, in which case the $800 price tag is a bit specious. Don’t get me wrong – I want one!  I just don’t think that for the average triathlete it will magically supercede perceived exertion, HRMs, RHR/LT/AT/VO2MAX related zone training, etc.   And, we’ll be waiting a while for versions that attach to Zoomers and Sauconys. Wade

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Was over at Joe Friel’s house this weekend where he showed me his latest/greatest training device.  A rear wheel with technology built into the hub that measured and recorded wattage output. His computer measured average watt’s generated per hour and max. wattage during the ride.  Joe’s opinion is that wattage training will supercede what is now being done with heart rate monitors. My only two comments here are: 1) If this is important to you, start saving your pennies.  Current    price for this rear wheel is ~$800. 2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it    sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past.  Rich Davis                          Home Page: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~twm/TTH.html

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Rich, Rich, Rich – where have you been? Training by power isn’t really new at all, it has just become much more accessible in the last half-decade or so with the introduction of devices like the SRM crank and now the Tune Power Tap. Before that, you had to train indoors on an ergometer to know your power, something that not everyone is willing to do. Even though I now own a Tune system, I still think there are certain advantages (and disadvantages) to indoor, power-based training, and have and will continue to make it part of my personal program. Was over at Joe Friel’s house this weekend where he showed me his latest/greatest training device.  A rear wheel with technology built into the hub that measured and recorded wattage output.

(snip) — Andrew Coggan Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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: Was over at Joe Friel’s house this weekend where he showed me his : latest/greatest training device.  A rear wheel with technology : built into the hub that measured and recorded wattage output. His : computer measured average watt’s generated per hour and max. : wattage during the ride.  Joe’s opinion is that wattage training : will supercede what is now being done with heart rate monitors. : My only two comments here are: : 1) If this is important to you, start saving your pennies.  Current :    price for this rear wheel is ~$800. : 2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it :    sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past. Do you really mean supercede, or do you mean complement? I know Andrew likes his power tap and I can certainly see how it would be very informative, even useful, but how can you train the human body based solely on the amount of power it puts out and ignore its own internal metrics (whether you measure them via perceived exertion or actual heart rate)?   Is my coach going to (only) say "OK go ride today for 2 hours at 250 watts"?   What if I can’t hold the power output today.  What if I can and in fact it’s too easy?  Where did the 250 watt figure come from?  I see the possible benefit in adjusting your training for terrain or wind (ie it would help you maintain a constant level of output when you hit a hill), but don’t exactly see how it will be used to _set_ those levels in the absence of other information.  Sure you can find an initial watt reading for an all out 40K TT, and call that the equivalent of Anaerobic Threshold for that individual, but then what do you do?   Specifiy training at, above and below that wattage without regard to how the body is reacting? Do people use Computrainers without HRMs or perceived exertion monitoring?  In what way? Of course, I have no CT, hardly ever wear my HRM, and so don’t really care, this is largely rhetorical.  I’m all about perceived exertion, and none too scientific about even that anymore.  It’s more like perceived pain, and more importantly perceived lack of pain.  Which could be why I suck.  An $800 device that would put me in the next age group 2 years early, that I could use . Wade  

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2) I’m glad I never bought into the heart rate craze because it   sounds like HR’s are a thing of the past.

And how exactly does the Power Tap measure your output while running, or swimming? I’d love to have a PowerTap, but then I’d love to have a Cheetah with powercranks, the powertap system, spinergy wheels, and every other whiz-bang-techno-gizmick that comes down the pipe, but I’m too financially challenged for all that . . . in the meantime, I’ll muddle thru with my Polar — TriathRon                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_ `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / (ASCII art blatantly plagiarized from TriBaby’s sig . . . )

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Question:

I am a new triathlete and own a heart rate monitor.  I was wondering if anyone could recommend a triathlon training book that is based on heart rate or at least thoroughly covers it,  particularly one that recognizes the different max HRs or AT for the 3 different disciplines. I was at the book store today and browsed through Triathloning for Mortals and The Essential Triathlete by Jonas, a couple by Sally Edwards, Dave Scott’s book, and Scott Tinley’s book.  None of them seemed to  touch on heart rate training so I would really appreciate any recommendations. Thanks in advance, Alex H.

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I am a new triathlete and own a heart rate monitor.  I was wondering if anyone could recommend a triathlon training book that is based on heart rate or at least thoroughly covers it,  particularly one that recognizes the different max HRs or AT for the 3 different disciplines. I was at the book store today and browsed through Triathloning for Mortals and The Essential Triathlete by Jonas, a couple by Sally Edwards, Dave Scott’s book, and Scott Tinley’s book.  None of them seemed to  touch on heart rate training so I would really appreciate any recommendations.

_Training Lactate Pulse Rat_e by Peter Janssen (very deep, maybe a little hard for beginners to interpret) _Training for Endurance_ Philip Maffetone _Lactate Lift-Off_ Owen Anderson Anything by Joe Friel — or check out his website at www.ultrafit.com These various books each give different prescriptions, but altogether you’ll get a good overview of using an HRM.  If you have to limit yourself to just a couple of books, try Friel and Maffetone for a well-rounded picture. JT Visit http://www.jt10000.com/ Cycling, Food and Stories – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks in advance, Alex H.

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I am a new triathlete and own a heart rate monitor.  I was wondering if anyone could recommend a triathlon training book that is based on heart rate or at least thoroughly covers it,  particularly one that recognizes the different max HRs or AT for the 3 different disciplines. I was at the book store today and browsed through Triathloning for Mortals and The Essential Triathlete by Jonas, a couple by Sally Edwards, Dave Scott’s book, and Scott Tinley’s book.  None of them seemed to  touch on heart rate training so I would really appreciate any recommendations. Thanks in advance, Alex H.

  "The Power to Perform" by Jon Ackland is quite good in this respect.  It offers macrophase, microphase, overload training and heartrate zone advice. Also has sample programs for Multisport. rowing, mtb’ing and of course various length tri’s.  I don’t know where you’d get hold of it outside New Zealand

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<<I am a new triathlete and own a heart rate monitor.  I was wondering if anyone could recommend a triathlon training book that is based on heart rate or at least thoroughly covers it, particularly one that recognizes the different max HRs or AT for the 3 different disciplines. See:   http://www.heartzone.com/index.html Sally Edwards has a couple of excellent books entirely about Heart Zone Training, available through this website and perhaps your local bookstore. _Smart Heart_   and  _Heart Zone Training_  are both fine books.  If you have some understanding of the subject already, go for _Smart Heart_.  It has lots of great info, including tests to find your max. Have fun! -Pat (you mean I still have to run when it’s hot outside?) Sobrero,  fledgling sprint tiathlete

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Question:

can anybody help ? Carmen                          U.K. Bike Shop Database         http://www.handbooks.co.uk    Over 2,150 bikeshops- fully searchable

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can anybody help ?

Start by looking at     http://www.triathletes.demon.co.uk/index.html to find out what there is, London is a big place and there are quite a few clubs. However, now that ‘Evans’ has been ‘renovated’ there are no proper tri shops in all of London! Steve

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Question:

Sunday, July 12th ESPN will be airing a special edition of the 20th anniversary of the Ironman Triathlon World Championship.  Check your local listing for correct times.

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Ironman Triathlon 20th Anniversary special will be aired here locally in Portland on: ESPN 2pm – 3pm July 12th I would double check your area’s times.

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Question:

Gotta jump in here. From my experience, Total Immersion drills have a place in learning to become a more proficient swimmer.  I attended a Total Immersion swim camp last spring as an apprentice coach and to the delight of my swimmers have been using Terry’s drills in my practices since. "Pressing the T or Buoy" or modifications to the head position are changes that affect the overall body position, specifically getting the legs up, which is a problem for many triathletes (with muscular legs) and beginning swimmers.  It is also a tip for experienced swimmers so they don’t have to use the same amount of energy maintaining their body position.  It is less energy to transfer a bit of weight to the chest area and have your legs come up, than it is to kick like crazy or modify your arm pull so that part of the force maintains your high body position.  If you can float and maintain a proper body position then the force from your pull and kick can be directed towards propulsion.  Does that make sense?  I think I was getting a little wordy. Keep in mind that there are a number of differences between sprinters and distance swimmers.  My top sprinter (:54 for 100m free, 15 years old) has the top of the water at the hairline (the standard in any swimming text).  His feet are also at the top of the water, doing a six beat kick.  His head/body position is a function of good balance and speed.  A distance swimmer, on the other hand, will have a slightly lower body position and, generally speaking, a two beat kick.  Think of a speed boat, if it is just puttering along the front and back are level, when it is at max. speed the bow is higher.  Both are efficient and balanced at their speeds, but it would not be smart to lift the front end of the puttering boat. Total Immersion – body position, swimming on your side, swimming taller, stroke length vs. stroke rate, the emphasis on technique vs. yardage, on streamlining vs. propulsion – these are all incredibly valuable aspects of the stroke, which should not be ignored.  From my experience, as a coach for 14 years of both age group and Masters (Penticton Masters, more than 25 of my Masters completed IMC this year), Total Immersion works, but it is not the only theory I subscribe to.   Tina Hoeben. IMC ‘95, ‘96, ‘97. Head Coach Penticton Masters and Pikes Summer Club.

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I am a slow swimmer…because I NEVER swim except during a triathlon….till this past year.  I spent 2-3 months trying out the first 2 excercises in Terry Laughlins Total Immersion book.  I had pretty good sucess in dropping my times and swimming more comfortably.  I did almost all my training at very slow speeds…with one measured 400m benchmark swim at the end of each session.  I dropped from approximtely 9:00 per 400m….to 6:30 per 400 in just a few months.  I was able to swim 1500m in about 27:30.  I know..still slow.   What I was wondering….I feel like the improvement is because of the theories I was testing as opposed to my workout intensity.  I am wondering if I should continue his system…or try something else.   I am sure you guys have hashed this one out before…but…are there any opinions about the validity of Laughlins methods you can share with me. Thanks A very slow GuppieG

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It sounds like you were never swimming (except in races) so any training would drop the times. Remember when you started running?  You did not run a fast time the first day out. If you had swam the same workouts without the help of the book, then you would have gotten some improvement as well.  This is the training effect. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a slow swimmer…because I NEVER swim except during a triathlon….till this past year.  I spent 2-3 months trying out the first 2 excercises in Terry Laughlins Total Immersion book.  I had pretty good sucess in dropping my times and swimming more comfortably.  I did almost all my training at very slow speeds…with one measured 400m benchmark swim at the end of each session.  I dropped from approximtely 9:00 per 400m….to 6:30 per 400 in just a few months.  I was able to swim 1500m in about 27:30.  I know..still slow.   What I was wondering….I feel like the improvement is because of the theories I was testing as opposed to my workout intensity.  I am wondering if I should continue his system…or try something else.   I am sure you guys have hashed this one out before…but…are there any opinions about the validity of Laughlins methods you can share with me. Thanks A very slow GuppieG

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I have never seen anything written about Terry that says he coaches anyone.  He  presents expensive workshops.  I have seen his video and was not all that  impressed.  If you swim downhill your head drops.  One more obstacle to drag  through the water.  I think he teaches too much over rotation of the hips.  There are a lot of other drills that would be more useful.   Nothing beats joining a great masters team with a coach on deck.  I had my own  swim clinic last year and picked out a "Terry" follower right away.  He too  was not all that impressed.  And his turnover was slow as molasses. I would also like to know how he can advertise that he is one of the only Level  5 coaches in the country.  Now that is fiction.  And I have never talked to  any Level 5 coaches that know who he is.  He is probably a really nice guy,  but I think he is all fiction as a coach.   He was in the right place at the  right time with a great idea.  I would love to see more "real" swim coaches  give there opionion and advice.

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Hi, folks. Mike Collins coaches with UC-Davis and the Davis Masters, and he also is associated with the Total Immersion Program (as well as having raced triathlons as a pro). He is in the process of moving and won’t have access to a USENET enabled computer for a few days. He asked me to post this on his behalf. BTW, I have been to a TI workshop and feel that it was money well-spent, but opinions from folks like me (no swimming experience going into the TI program) is not what was being questioned. dave lee I have never seen anything written about Terry that says he coaches anyone.

Terry is currently an assistant coach at Westpoint. His swimmers have shown dramatic improvements in the short time he’s been there which shows that the techniques he uses not only work with novice level swimmers, but also with :47 100 Freestylers who drop to :44. He presents expensive workshops.  I have seen his video and was not all that  impressed.  

While the clinics may be pricey, I see no reason to downgrade the validity of the message presented. There is nothing wrong with a coach making a decent living if they have a good product to offer. Total Immersion camps get EXTREMELY high marks on evaluation forms from the campers. While the video presents some of the concepts, it doesn’t really do justice to the skills taught in a TI workshop.  If you swim downhill your head drops.  One more obstacle to drag  through the water.  I think he teaches too much over rotation of the hips.  There are a lot of other drills that would be more useful.

The term "downhill" is presented as a FEELING you get from swimming balanced vs. swimming UPHILL (head much higher than the hips). Look at the top Freestylers today and you will see their head and hips at the same level. They are looking down more than forward and are keeping the head in alignment with the spine which reduces drag. If the head is lifted just and inch too high the hips will drop 3-4 inches and the legs will have to work much harder just to keep balance – not even for propulsion. Nothing beats joining a great masters team with a coach on deck.  I had my own  swim clinic last year and picked out a "Terry" follower right away.  He too  was not all that impressed.  And his turnover was slow as molasses.

I would agree that daily coaching is superior to going to one clinic. If that coach can help improve technique and not just bang out sets. People make DRAMATIC improvements in just a weekend clinic. The key to keeping it, however, is daily practice – preferably with a coach who understands the concepts of low energy, efficient swimming vs. hammering yardage. Speed/Velocity is made up of a combination of Stroke Length (SL) x Stroke Rate (SR). Total Immersion techniques definitely focus more on the SL side of the equation for good reason. You will get more improvement with less effort by lengthening your stroke than by trying to maintain a faster SR. However, we still see the need to maintain a reasonable rate through powerful hip rotation for power and speed. I would also like to know how he can advertise that he is one of the only Level  5 coaches in the country.  Now that is fiction.  And I have never talked to  any Level 5 coaches that know who he is.  He is probably a really nice guy,  but I think he is all fiction as a coach.   He was in the right place at the  right time with a great idea.  I would love to see more "real" swim coaches  give there opinion and advice.

I consider myself a "real" swim coach. I have coached the largest Masters team in the country, Davis Aquatic Masters (nearly 700 registered swimmers), for nine years. ( ASCA level 5 Masters) and well as an Assistant at UC Davis for 4 years. In addition, I have competed both in swimming and triathlons (professionally 1989-93). I have used Total Immersion & Bill Boomer concepts of balance and SL emphasis for the last few years and have seen spectacular improvements in my swimmers – AT ALL LEVELS. On a consistent basis I can get beginner swimmers to drop from 24-30 strokes per length in a 25 yard pool to 14-18. With the improved efficiency they are able to maintain a faster overall pace throughout workouts and races. My good swimmers have learned how to maintain speed and impressive meet performances without having to put in grueling hours of training. One finished 13th in the 96 Olympic Trials in the 200 Free (1:51.00) with only 4-5 workouts per week. As far as other "real" coaches, Terry has been a consultant at the U.S. Olympic Training Center, and to some of the top programs in the country including coach David Marsh at Auburn (Division I NCAA Champions!) I encourage you to do more research into the "Fishlike" swimming techniques that Terry and other successful coaches are using to make their swimmers faster and more efficient. Swimmingly, Coach Michael Collins Davis Aquatic Masters, CA Total Immersion Instructor

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I gotta second this post.  I’m frequently asked by local triathletes for advice on swim technique.  When it comes time for me to give it, I hear tons of muddled theory being spewed back at me (e.g.,  You say reach and keep your head up, so-and-so said that I should try and swim downhill!)

Some very interesting points covered by all, and counters by TJ.  I think that for the most part that I would listen to TJ, being an expert swimmer. I think that their is some validity about the fact that coach’s at Stanford etc don’t have to stress pressing the bouy, cause their swimmers usally already have good postioning, but I liked TJ’s response to that. I started this summer using a lot of the TI stuff, but it wasn’t until I learned how to lengthen and get the most out of my stroke that I was able to improve. Funny thing now is that many of the TI stuff makes more sense and works better for me. I have dropped my 25yd stroke count from 20 down to 15 using drills, not neccessarily TI drills. But now most of the stuff that TI talks about with reagard to body postion makes sense to me now. Vaughn, maybe we can get together and you can help me with my swimming, and I will help you with your cycling. Mike Plumb

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TJ – In fact many, many world class swimmers DO follow Bill Boomer and Terry Laughlin’s swimming methods.  Many foreign national teams bring these guys and others like them to work with their swimmers.  The Stanford swim teams (mens and womens) have brought Bill Boomer in as an expert for the last 4 years.  Do you think there might be something to what he says about the best way to train? I think you will find that the "theories" of Terry Laughlin and Bill Boomer, and A LOT of other coaches, are part of the new  paradigm.   I personally have no connection with Total Immersion or any other swim clinic or any swim coach.  My opinions are my own. It is fair to say, however, that my understanding of both the exercise of swimming and the art of coaching have evolved along a path similar to that trod by the above named gentlemen so I am certainly not unbiased in this matter. I have to believe there are hundreds, if not thousands, of coaches who see things the same way:  You can achieve great results by investing time refining your swimmers’ technique rather than  simply to focus on getting in the yards. To be accurate, underlying everything else in the art of coaching is to BALANCE your approach and to take into account stroke mechanics AS WELL AS conditioning, race strategy, etc.  Bill Boomer and Terry Laughlin, if I can put words in their mouths for just a second, aren’t saying "Don’t worry about conditioning".  They know conditioning is important to competitive athletes. They’re basically saying no matter what else you do, don’t give up your technique!" This type of training is based on the belief that greater increases in swimming velocity can be attained by focusing on minimizing the resistance side of the equation than maximizing the propulsion side.  Learn to swim smoothly, with relaxed fluid strokes (reducing wave drag) and get your position and profile squared away, with higher legs, a longer stroke, side-to-side rotation, etc., (reducing form drag).  That’s what it means to "Swim Smarter." Water is nearly 1000 times denser than air so resistance KILLS any momentum you might generate anyway.  It doesn’t matter how strong you are or how aerobically fit you are if you can’t get your legs to ride higher in the water so you’re balanced.  How effective do you think you’d be bicycling if you had no balance?  Swimming is no different in that balance is the key to efficiency. The buoyancy of your chest cavity (the Big Balloon) and the dead weight of your legs (the Big Bricks) produce torque forces that eat up all your available energy . . . unless you find your aquatic balance.  There’s obviously more to these "theories" than this but if I could put it in a nutshell I’d say                   relax, find your balance, be streamlined I challenge coaches and swimmers who believe otherwise to make a better case for working out in the weight room or putting in  endless, garbage yards. Scott Lemley

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that it is a function of where you are at in swimming. I got some help from Mo Chambers (Mt. View Master’s) when I first started swimming. The very first thing that she did was to reposition me in the water by "getting me to press my chest down" when I swam (the term that she used). Until then it had never occurred to me that when you kick hard your feet might actually break the surface of the water (my positioning was pretty bad). I seriously doubt that any major university swimming coach encounters anyone like me in the pool. Advice that helped me alot is just not relevant to those who cover a mile in 20 or less minutes. BTW, I’m now trying to learn to breath to my left. I have found myself right back into the "pressing my T" thing again while I learn (feels like trying to shoot free-throws left handed – damned awkward). dave lee ps. I don’t think that Mo is associated with TI in any way, but I believe that she has won several awards for her Master’s level coaching.

a good example of my point. but i cant totally agree here either. there was a time that i wasnt swimming sub 18 or sub 20 for that matter. going back to when i wasnt that good, i still wasnt told to press my bouy or lean on my chest. as for your coach, well she is probably very good and i have never seen your stroke so that could have been just what the doctor ordered. but before i would tell you to lean on you r chest, i would look at everything else that would cause your ass to drag and you chest to ride high. sort of like looking for what causes the sickness as opposed to treating a symptom. are your shoulders bumping your chin when you rotate? are you reaching out far enough? is your pull correct or are you too shallow? is your kick very efficient? stuff like that. chances are that if you are doing all that stuff right then there is no balance problem. back to the bike analogy, if you keep falling over b/c one hand is straching your back and the other is eating a bar, does that mean you have a balance problem? should you spend the day in the garage trying to balance yourself, or should you put both hands on the bars and peddle? adjusting one will fix the other. just remember when thinking about using this drill (pressing bouy) "all that glitters is not gold" tj

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – scott, you missed my point entirely. I am not suggesting that someone should skip technique and go for the yardage. not even close. what i am saying is that you should do alot of the RIGHT drills and make yourself a better swimmer. ti does have a number of very good drills that help to develop the proper stroke technique, but, there are also a couple drills that are always suggested to EVERYONE that most in the biz find questionable. not everyone should press bouys or swim downhill. I will quote the only SWIM coach who gave any positive comments on it and say" it carries some validity to it". every other coach i have talked to about this has said no. it is the wrong image to implant in someone’s head, in my opinion, when their are more fundemental things one should concentrate on. i dont want to get off into some big arguement about pressing the t or who should use the method or not. frankly, i dont care enough to bother, and it makes my job that much easier if everyone(my competitors) is concentrating on leaning their chest into the water as opposed to more important aspects. i am simply saying that as in any aspect of life, if you want to learn how to be good at something, you look at what the very best do. NOT their yardage, but their stroke form and how they achieved it. go ask stanford if they press the t or swim downhill. I already know the answer. i had a friend ask point blank. do they subscribe to the newer techniques of the stroke. yes, but not in the same fashion that it is contstantly described among the tri folk. and referring to your balance and bike comment, of course you cant swim good unless you are prone in the water. swimming vertical is a bitch.but do you go out and practice to balance yourself on a bike? or do you instead PEDDLE the bike and learn a better balance by focusing on motions you make(peddling, steering)? not too different from swimming in this example.do you spend your swim workout concentrating on balancing yourself, or do you focus on good stroke technique (body rotation, catch, pull, recovery, head position, etc) that will in turn create the optimal balance? I personally ride my bike and focus on peddle force,etc. just as i swim in the pool and focus on my stroke technique. anyway, i am tired, and am going to bed. tj

TJ and others interested, I gotta second this post.  I’m frequently asked by local triathletes for advice on swim technique.  When it comes time for me to give it, I hear tons of muddled theory being spewed back at me (e.g.,  You say reach and keep your head up, so-and-so said that I should try and swim downhill!) That’s why I think caution should always be emphasized by those who write articles for the popular press.  Some advice is universal, some is not.  Nothing beats coaching, either by Boomer or Skip Kenney or by your local swim stud. cheers, vaughn

Response:

It’s "Total Immersion" by Terry Laughlin in the swimming subsection of the sports section of your bookstore. (or use amazon.com, the athlete’s bookstore, others….) — Neal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m really interested in that book. Can anyone tell me the correct title of this book and the name of the author?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a slow swimmer…because I NEVER swim except during a triathlon….till this past year.  I spent 2-3 months trying out the first 2 excercises in Terry Laughlins Total Immersion book.  I had pretty good sucess in dropping my times and swimming more comfortably.  I did almost all my training at very slow speeds…with one measured 400m benchmark swim at the end of each session.  I dropped from approximtely 9:00 per 400m….to 6:30 per 400 in just a few months.  I was able to swim 1500m in about 27:30.  I know..still slow. What I was wondering….I feel like the improvement is because of the theories I was testing as opposed to my workout intensity.  I am wondering if I should continue his system…or try something else. I am sure you guys have hashed this one out before…but…are there any opinions about the validity of Laughlins methods you can share with me. Thanks A very slow GuppieG

It depends on what drills you were using. Some are very good, but others that seem to proclaim a cure all have very little validity. The best way to learn how to swim right is to learn from the best. People in your situation (beginers) and have little guidance use have used his methods and WOW! Surprise! they dropped time. Fact is, that at this point the mere act of getting in a pool will cause you to drop time. What you should ask is this: Are these methods the ones that the very best in swimming used to get such beatiful, fast, and extremely efficient strokes? It is VERY doubtful. did Josh Davis push his bouy? does Amy Van Dyken swim downhill? I dont think so. You want to learn how to swim well? Have a coach or very good swimmer watch you swim and get there input. self taught swimming is a very difficult thing to get right(not that it cant be done, it is just hard) T.J. Fry

Response:

snip ti does have a number of very good drills that help to develop the proper stroke technique, but, there are also a couple drills that are always suggested to EVERYONE that most in the biz find questionable. not everyone should press bouys or swim downhill. I will quote the only SWIM coach who gave any positive comments on it and say" it carries some validity to it". every other coach i have talked to about this has said no. it is the wrong image to implant in someone’s head, in my opinion, when their are more fundemental things one should concentrate on. snip

I think that it is a function of where you are at in swimming. I got some help from Mo Chambers (Mt. View Master’s) when I first started swimming. The very first thing that she did was to reposition me in the water by "getting me to press my chest down" when I swam (the term that she used). Until then it had never occurred to me that when you kick hard your feet might actually break the surface of the water (my positioning was pretty bad).   I seriously doubt that any major university swimming coach encounters anyone like me in the pool. Advice that helped me alot is just not relevant to those who cover a mile in 20 or less minutes. BTW, I’m now trying to learn to breath to my left. I have found myself right back into the "pressing my T" thing again while I learn (feels like trying to shoot free-throws left handed – damned awkward). dave lee ps. I don’t think that Mo is associated with TI in any way, but I believe that she has won several awards for her Master’s level coaching.

Response:

scott, you missed my point entirely. I am not suggesting that someone should skip technique and go for the yardage. not even close. what i am saying is that you should do alot of the RIGHT drills and make yourself a better swimmer. ti does have a number of very good drills that help to develop the proper stroke technique, but, there are also a couple drills that are always suggested to EVERYONE that most in the biz find questionable. not everyone should press bouys or swim downhill. I will quote the only SWIM coach who gave any positive comments on it and say" it carries some validity to it". every other coach i have talked to about this has said no. it is the wrong image to implant in someone’s head, in my opinion, when their are more fundemental things one should concentrate on. i dont want to get off into some big arguement about pressing the t or who should use the method or not. frankly, i dont care enough to bother, and it makes my job that much easier if everyone(my competitors) is concentrating on leaning their chest into the water as opposed to more important aspects. i am simply saying that as in any aspect of life, if you want to learn how to be good at something, you look at what the very best do. NOT their yardage, but their stroke form and how they achieved it. go ask stanford if they press the t or swim downhill. I already know the answer. i had a friend ask point blank. do they subscribe to the newer techniques of the stroke. yes, but not in the same fashion that it is contstantly described among the tri folk. and referring to your balance and bike comment, of course you cant swim good unless you are prone in the water. swimming vertical is a bitch.but do you go out and practice to balance yourself on a bike? or do you instead PEDDLE the bike and learn a better balance by focusing on motions you make(peddling, steering)? not too different from swimming in this example.do you spend your swim workout concentrating on balancing yourself, or do you focus on good stroke technique (body rotation, catch, pull, recovery, head position, etc) that will in turn create the optimal balance? I personally ride my bike and focus on peddle force,etc. just as i swim in the pool and focus on my stroke technique. anyway, i am tired, and am going to bed. tj

Response:

I have not taken the course, but I have read his book and watched the video.  I am impressed that the technique is solid and that concentrating on form makes any practice more valuable.  Essentially I am coaching myself using the Total Imersion exercises, and finding significant improvements. Stan

Response:

I have not taken the course, but I have read his book and watched the video.  I am impressed that the technique is solid and that concentrating on form makes any practice more valuable.  Essentially I am coaching myself using the Total Imersion exercises, and finding significant improvements. Stan

I’m really interested in that book. Can anyone tell me the correct title of this book and the name of the author? — Carsten For reply mail please replace xxx by sel

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Question:

I am an avid follower of the Ironman since it’s beginnings. However, I have not been able to go to Hawaii. I would love to obtain any old posters of the Hawaiian race. Thanks, Richard.

Response:

Newgroups: rec.sport.triathlon I am an avid follower of the Ironman since it’s beginnings. However, I have not been able to go to Hawaii. I would love to obtain any old posters of the Hawaiian race. Thanks, Richard.

ditto. I would like to find some old posters too. T.J. Fry                  : "It takes a big man to cry, but Clemson University        : that man".-DEEP THOUGHTS by Jack Handy Men’s varsity swimming    :

Response:

Question:

(TUCKERNEW) writes: As a phone company employee, I’d like to come to their defense.  The 900 arrangement was probably made with the company and its partner (probably Mrs. T organizers) that produces the results.  The phone company is just the conduit for the phone call.  The bulk of the revenue goes to the information provider with only a fraction going to the phone company. Complain to the Mrs. T’s staff on this one. Tucker Newberry Bell Atlantic (Local phone service provider in the Mid-Atlantic region)

I made a joke to someone at Mrs T’s post party as I forced another sip of BIG RED  that we most likely will have to get our results by 1 900 Rip them off some more. Well, it’s true. I’m curious to know how much profits were made by CSI. I hope TRI-FED learned a lesson from this one. Keep the National championship an exclusive single race. Give the race back to Leon or Columbia MD. A race FOR THE ATHLETE not some company trying to make a buck! Rob Chance Tulsa, OK

Response:

I stayed until the end of the awards: 5:45 and there was no posting of results from the championship race.  There were no results at the hotel the next morning.  Do you think someone had some special interest in not posting the results?  Ripoff??  

Response:

Here on the west coast, we get out results for the May 7th Wildflower race in late July.  The alternative is to call 1-900.  I did this, and my splits were not recorded.  Since I thought it was me being a spaz, I tried again.  My results – $14 phone bill for nothing.  I’ve been pretty suspicious about the almost 3 month delay in receiving results, but now I see a motive. *   |       *   *     *                                                          * /|  *    *     *        Eric Roseme                                         *  /|   *     *       *    Hewlett-Packard, Information Networks Division      *//|\     /   /    *     Eric ROSEME / HP6600/E0                              ///|\ *      \                                                     |       *  // *                                                                           \                                                                              \                                                            

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What race was this. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to ban 1-900 results and demand prompt full results as one of the things I receive for my entry fee. Who cares what I want or demand.  Who speaks for triathletes?  Trifed? Hey Trifed candidates how about this for a platform item?

Response:

Well at least there is a 1-900 line that gives you an immediate value for your money. The Triathlon Hotline , 1-900-GROOV72, gives personal messages and training tips from 5 of the legendary names in the sport. the price has been recently lowered to $.99 per minute.         Callers hear a recorded message directly from the following menu of athletes: Dr. Phil Maffetone Mike Pigg Mark Allen Karen Smyers Scott Tinley Check it out and post comments

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well at least there is a 1-900 line that gives you an immediate value for your money. The Triathlon Hotline , 1-900-GROOV72, gives personal messages and training tips from 5 of the legendary names in the sport. the price has been recently lowered to $.99 per minute.        Callers hear a recorded message directly from the following menu of athletes: Dr. Phil Maffetone Mike Pigg Mark Allen Karen Smyers Scott Tinley Check it out and post comments

Hey Brad Nice Plug for the 1-900 Ripp-off. Do they give you a cut of the money they make?

Response:

I want to ban 1-900 results and demand prompt full results as one of the things I receive for my entry fee. Who cares what I want or demand.  Who speaks for triathletes?  Trifed? Hey Trifed candidates how about this for a platform item?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here on the west coast, we get out results for the May 7th Wildflower race in late July.  The alternative is to call 1-900.  I did this, and my splits were not recorded.  Since I thought it was me being a spaz, I tried again.  My results – $14 phone bill for nothing.  I’ve been pretty suspicious about the almost 3 month delay in receiving results, but now I see a motive. *   |       *   *     *                                                          * /|  *    *     *        Eric Roseme                                         *  /|   *     *       *    Hewlett-Packard, Information Networks Division      *//|\     /   /    *     Eric ROSEME / HP6600/E0                              ///|\ *      \                                                     |       *  // *                                                                           \                                                                              \                                                            

Boy, does that sound familiar!  I did the exact same thing.  They said they had splits, I went through the whole button-pushing ordeal, no splits!! Thought I was a spaz, etc.   Genuine PISSER! Tri-Baby —                                    _                       o         –    o      ’               /|_      -    </_  `     ‘          _ / _       – __/    /o_         (( )  ( ))       –  /

Response:

Triathlete Online is unable to give more than token pro results of the National Championships because of (I suppose) an agreement between the Mrs.T’s race management and the telephone company.  In order to ensure maximum use of the 900 number for your personal result, it will not make the general results public.  How much does the phone company pay Mrs. T’s for this arrangement?  Isn’t this an extraordinary squeeze of our pennies, denying us results to force use of the telephone?  If this is true, then I’ll take back anything good I said about the race.  I bent backwards to be generous in praise.  I would be bending forward to be more accurate, though less kind. Ruth Kazez

A local race organizer in Atlanta (Multi Sports Marketing) has also gone to 900 numbers for individual results at some races.  I’d rather send the SASE then spend the ridiculous amount on the phone. David

Response:

Triathlete Online is unable to give more than token pro results of the National Championships because of (I suppose) an agreement between the Mrs.T’s race management and the telephone company.  In order to ensure maximum use of the 900 number for your personal result, it will not make the general results public.  How much does the phone company pay Mrs. T’s for this arrangement?  Isn’t this an extraordinary squeeze of our pennies, denying us results to force use of the telephone?  If this is true, then I’ll take back anything good I said about the race.  I bent backwards to be generous in praise.  I would be bending forward to be more accurate, though less kind. Ruth Kazez

Response:

As a phone company employee, I’d like to come to their defense.  The 900 arrangement was probably made with the company and its partner (probably Mrs. T organizers) that produces the results.  The phone company is just the conduit for the phone call.  The bulk of the revenue goes to the information provider with only a fraction going to the phone company. Complain to the Mrs. T’s staff on this one. Tucker Newberry Bell Atlantic (Local phone service provider in the Mid-Atlantic region)

Response: