Question:

I think a lot of you guys are over stating the difference between the better brands of bike. The differences between the top frames and components is now minimal and in the case of most of the Euro brands they all use 1-2 materials suppliers anyway. What does that leave, marketing budgets and joint sponsorship proposals whereby the team can pool sponsors to get a higher return. The more money also leads to more opportunity to do the extra little things that make the difference to sponsors. Big circle. I dare say though that if riders were allowed to pick whatever brand of bike they wanted for events like the TT’s you would see a lot more Cervelo’s, Cat’s and other smaller quality TT bikes on the starting line. Lloyd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do see your points, but I’ve got to disagree with them based on the following. That’s partially true–the better teams don’t take sponsorship if they’re not impressed with the product…these guys put food on their tables by winning races–they won’t ride something they don’t believe in…in fairness, i wasn’t saying to do everything the pros do…i was saying they’re generally a good point of reference. I’ve still got to disagree on this one.  Bicycle racing is first and foremost a business.  If Cervelo offers the Lotto team 50 bikes at no cost, but GT offers Lotto 50 bikes at no cost plus $100,000, who do you think Lotto will choose? True..but their mechanics (who have quite a bit of say in what they ride/where they get their sponsorship) know quite a bit. Most of the mechanics I’ve seen have very little input into what equipment the individual riders or the team in general choose. They’re just guys who happen to know how to wrench well, love the sport, and are willing to put up with long hours, low pay, and way too much time away from home. Triathletes do not race in the same conditions as an ITT–they have to get off and run when they’re done…hence, lower tire pressures/less radical geometries which make for a more comfortable ride…and run. Even if the pros ride at over 150psi (which i don’t believe is the case), they’re also riding in extremely aero positions, in extremely aerodynamic clothing/helmets, on extremely aero bikes…as every second matters…the benefit of comfort for a triathlete is far greater from any supposed benefit gained by an extra 30psi in their tires…besides, all supposed benefits of lower rolling resistance are dwarfed by the drag of many of the tri-used gadgets (drink systems, rising stems, bento boxes stuffed with power bars…)… I hear you on the stems and BentoBox thing, but I still believe that bar mounted drinking systems are the fastest way to go. As for the importance of every second, it’s no different in triathlon than it is in bike racing.  Regardless of which sport you’re in, if you trail by 1 second, you’ve lost the race. I’m not sure the difference in tire pressures of 110 psi versus 150 psi will make a difference in the run afterwards.  Especially not in Olympic distance races and shorter.  (Personally, I ride a Softride with a carbon fork so 150 psi in the tires feels great to me.) Before you buy.

Response:

That should read "smaller volume higher quality TT bikes" Lloyd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think a lot of you guys are over stating the difference between the better brands of bike. The differences between the top frames and components is now minimal and in the case of most of the Euro brands they all use 1-2 materials suppliers anyway. What does that leave, marketing budgets and joint sponsorship proposals whereby the team can pool sponsors to get a higher return. The more money also leads to more opportunity to do the extra little things that make the difference to sponsors. Big circle. I dare say though that if riders were allowed to pick whatever brand of bike they wanted for events like the TT’s you would see a lot more Cervelo’s, Cat’s and other smaller quality TT bikes on the starting line. Lloyd I do see your points, but I’ve got to disagree with them based on the following. That’s partially true–the better teams don’t take sponsorship if they’re not impressed with the product…these guys put food on their tables by winning races–they won’t ride something they don’t believe in…in fairness, i wasn’t saying to do everything the pros do…i was saying they’re generally a good point of reference. I’ve still got to disagree on this one.  Bicycle racing is first and foremost a business.  If Cervelo offers the Lotto team 50 bikes at no cost, but GT offers Lotto 50 bikes at no cost plus $100,000, who do you think Lotto will choose? True..but their mechanics (who have quite a bit of say in what they ride/where they get their sponsorship) know quite a bit. Most of the mechanics I’ve seen have very little input into what equipment the individual riders or the team in general choose. They’re just guys who happen to know how to wrench well, love the sport, and are willing to put up with long hours, low pay, and way too much time away from home. Triathletes do not race in the same conditions as an ITT–they have to get off and run when they’re done…hence, lower tire pressures/less radical geometries which make for a more comfortable ride…and run. Even if the pros ride at over 150psi (which i don’t believe is the case), they’re also riding in extremely aero positions, in extremely aerodynamic clothing/helmets, on extremely aero bikes…as every second matters…the benefit of comfort for a triathlete is far greater from any supposed benefit gained by an extra 30psi in their tires…besides, all supposed benefits of lower rolling resistance are dwarfed by the drag of many of the tri-used gadgets (drink systems, rising stems, bento boxes stuffed with power bars…)… I hear you on the stems and BentoBox thing, but I still believe that bar mounted drinking systems are the fastest way to go. As for the importance of every second, it’s no different in triathlon than it is in bike racing.  Regardless of which sport you’re in, if you trail by 1 second, you’ve lost the race. I’m not sure the difference in tire pressures of 110 psi versus 150 psi will make a difference in the run afterwards.  Especially not in Olympic distance races and shorter.  (Personally, I ride a Softride with a carbon fork so 150 psi in the tires feels great to me.) Before you buy.

Response:

Actually, pro’s ususally ride whatever their sponsors give them as the sponsors are the one’s putting food on the table.  To base one’s equipment choices solely on what pro’s are riding would be rather silly. Furthermore, many of the riders have a lot less knowledge about their equipment than you might think.  Have you ever read a bike review by David Millar? Regarding tire pressures and your own point, many Tour riders run well at or above 150 psi in the TT’s.  TT’s are more the conditions that a triathlete races under.  There aren’t too many 198 rider, tightly-packed pelotons even in ITU racing. Before you buy.

Response:

Actually, pro’s ususally ride whatever their sponsors give them as the sponsors are the one’s putting food on the table.  To base one’s equipment choices solely on what pro’s are riding would be rather

silly. That’s partially true–the better teams don’t take sponsorship if they’re not impressed with the product…these guys put food on their tables by winning races–they won’t ride something they don’t believe in…in fairness, i wasn’t saying to do everything the pros do…i was saying they’re generally a good point of reference. Furthermore, many of the riders have a lot less knowledge about their equipment than you might think.  Have you ever read a bike review by David Millar?

True..but their mechanics (who have quite a bit of say in what they ride/where they get their sponsorship) know quite a bit. Regarding tire pressures and your own point, many Tour riders run well at or above 150 psi in the TT’s.  TT’s are more the conditions that a triathlete races under.  There aren’t too many 198 rider, tightly- packed pelotons even in ITU racing.

Triathletes do not race in the same conditions as an ITT–they have to get off and run when they’re done…hence, lower tire pressures/less radical geometries which make for a more comfortable ride…and run. Even if the pros ride at over 150psi (which i don’t believe is the case), they’re also riding in extremely aero positions, in extremely aerodynamic clothing/helmets, on extremely aero bikes…as every second matters…the benefit of comfort for a triathlete is far greater from any supposed benefit gained by an extra 30psi in their tires…besides, all supposed benefits of lower rolling resistance are dwarfed by the drag of many of the tri-used gadgets (drink systems, rising stems, bento boxes stuffed with power bars…)… Before you buy.

Response:

I do see your points, but I’ve got to disagree with them based on the following. That’s partially true–the better teams don’t take sponsorship if they’re not impressed with the product…these guys put food on their tables by winning races–they won’t ride something they don’t believe in…in fairness, i wasn’t saying to do everything the pros do…i was saying they’re generally a good point of reference.

I’ve still got to disagree on this one.  Bicycle racing is first and foremost a business.  If Cervelo offers the Lotto team 50 bikes at no cost, but GT offers Lotto 50 bikes at no cost plus $100,000, who do you think Lotto will choose? True..but their mechanics (who have quite a bit of say in what they ride/where they get their sponsorship) know quite a bit.

Most of the mechanics I’ve seen have very little input into what equipment the individual riders or the team in general choose. They’re just guys who happen to know how to wrench well, love the sport, and are willing to put up with long hours, low pay, and way too much time away from home. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Triathletes do not race in the same conditions as an ITT–they have to get off and run when they’re done…hence, lower tire pressures/less radical geometries which make for a more comfortable ride…and run. Even if the pros ride at over 150psi (which i don’t believe is the case), they’re also riding in extremely aero positions, in extremely aerodynamic clothing/helmets, on extremely aero bikes…as every second matters…the benefit of comfort for a triathlete is far greater from any supposed benefit gained by an extra 30psi in their tires…besides, all supposed benefits of lower rolling resistance are dwarfed by the drag of many of the tri-used gadgets (drink systems, rising stems, bento boxes stuffed with power bars…)…

I hear you on the stems and BentoBox thing, but I still believe that bar mounted drinking systems are the fastest way to go. As for the importance of every second, it’s no different in triathlon than it is in bike racing.  Regardless of which sport you’re in, if you trail by 1 second, you’ve lost the race. I’m not sure the difference in tire pressures of 110 psi versus 150 psi will make a difference in the run afterwards.  Especially not in Olympic distance races and shorter.  (Personally, I ride a Softride with a carbon fork so 150 psi in the tires feels great to me.) Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do see your points, but I’ve got to disagree with them based on the following. That’s partially true–the better teams don’t take sponsorship if they’re not impressed with the product…these guys put food on their tables by winning races–they won’t ride something they don’t believe in…in fairness, i wasn’t saying to do everything the pros do…i was saying they’re generally a good point of reference. I’ve still got to disagree on this one.  Bicycle racing is first and foremost a business.  If Cervelo offers the Lotto team 50 bikes at no cost, but GT offers Lotto 50 bikes at no cost plus $100,000, who do you think Lotto will choose?

Good question. It all depends on the situation. If I can convince Lotto that they will recoup the $100,000 because superior equipment will render more wins and more exposure, they will without a doubt choose the Cervelos. That said, it’s pretty hard to have someone choose the chance to win some cash over the certainty of cash up-front. And so the majority of big teams and big triathletes end up on big brand bikes. But there are exceptions, and those are interesting to watch. If 15 cycling teams use ITM, another 15 use Deda and ten use Cinelli, yet only one chooses VisionTech for their timetrial bikes, then there’s a good chance that VisionTech is a small company with no marketing budget that has managed to convice a team that foregoing the cash will pay back later. The same goes for triathletes, and I would dare to say it’s actually good that way. If you’re a bike company that offers more money than the others, then what good are your sponsored athletes to you? They only chose you for the cash, they have no special connection with your bikes. So it’s better to offer less or nothing at all, first of all to save money and second so you’re sure they chose you for your bikes. From the contracts he turned down, the number of referrals I get, and all the times he drags his bike along for interviews on German television, I know that Lothar loves his Cervelo. And I don’t think I could have bought that kind of commitment. G

Question:

Does Hoyt the younger enjoy the events (And all that goes with…training, etc) or does he get his enjoyment from his Dad’s sense of satisfaction?

<<<<<<<<<<<Isn’t it enjoyment either way?    Dick Hoyt states in the program that he does tri’s because Ricky wants to keep doing them.  When bike broke down he asked Ricky "do you want to keep going?"  He shook his head yes and they hit the road.  Ricky obviously has the mental ability to make decisions for himself.  Let the man do what he wants.   BTW I’m looking for a volunteer to drag ME around IMH next year!

Response:

After reading all the posts, and flames, and reflames, and reflections and philosphizing, I am left still with one question that I don’t think can be answered… Does Hoyt the younger enjoy the events (And all that goes with…training, etc) or does he get his enjoyment from his Dad’s sense of satisfaction?

Or maybe he enjoys both. The two aren’t mutually exclusive Einstein. Or maybe he just enjoys watching the hot chicks go by in their swim suits.  In other words, your question is about as pointless as your existence but you know that already.

Response:

Can we allow for the possibility that he really, genuinely enjoys the sensations of triathlon?  We do.  Is it such a stretch to think he may, too? Can we also allow for the possibility that he is just saying so to gain the father’s approval, and this is some new twist on the parent who pushes their kid into their own interests agaionst the kid’s natural talent?

But again, you’re trying to create information from lack of information, a violation of a logical rule called information entropy.  We KNOW that he’s stated that he enjoys participation in the sport (to the degree he participates).  Without some sort of proof to the contrary, we have no reason to believe otherwise. However, you’re creating a position out of nothing.  There is NO evidence that he does NOT enjoy participation.  In fact, the only evidence in play suggests the opposite position. Is it possible the father, athlete and marine, is the one who’d really find it boring, and the son has felt bad about not being able to share his father’s activities, and so jumps at any opportunity to feel more a part of his dad’s life?  Is it possible that the father would have gladly given up triathlon for chess if he only knew?  Is it possible that each is laboring under illusions about what the other feels?  An openness to other possibilities that aren’t as emotionally appealing is all I’ve really advocated here.

Actually, you’re stretching the definition of "possible".  It’s "possible" that invisible unicorns exist on Mars because we cannot disprove all possible scenarios in which they might.  You’re arguing from an inferior logical position. Is it possible, for instance, that every reader of this newsgroup is a serial killer?  An unenlightened mind would say "yes, it’s possible because we can’t completely disprove all scenarios where it may be true.".  However, an enlightened mind would dismiss the idea as being without merit until some proof to the affirmative were offered. That’s the way a logical argument is constructed.  One party advances an idea and evidence.  If you disprove the evidence, you disprove the idea. Your idea has no evidence, whatsoever, to support it.  You are attacking the opposing idea without explaining why the evidence (in this case, first hand testimony) is to be dismissed. The point I’m getting at is that the differences between he and I are rather stark and obvious.  However, beyond the obvious differences, I see no reason to presume he’s any different from me than you are different from me. Nor do I see any reason to presume the other way, except that it supports the warm feelings the TV coverage apparently engendered.  For me, that’s not enough to justify dismissing all other alternatives. Brian "always pointing out the alternatives" Wagner

Brian, it’s not enough to "point out" alternatives.  You must provide some reason for why these alternatives are likely to be true.  Again, are we a collection of mass murderers?  Is that idea equally valid to the concept that we are not all mass murderers?  You’re stating an alternative that has no supporting evidence, whatsoever. That’s the difference between critical thinking and pure cynicism.

Response:

Just wanted to say that this was admirably well expressed, Rick.  This whole debate has been very interesting and worthwhile.  I appreciate the thought that’s gone into all the discussion.  Kudos to all (oh, except for the trolls). In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Isn’t that true for anyone? Why would you doubt his motives because he speaks through a computer? Aren’t we all doing that right now? Turn it around. A skeptic always doubts. Does the need for and use of the computer to communicate relieve the need to doubt? If I doubted Rick Hoyt less than anyone else just because of his infirmities, I’m really insulting him. I’m saying that he’s too crippled to lie to me (or to himself). It’s patronizing, and it’s the kind of attitude on the part of non-handicapped people that upsets many handicapped people the most. I giving him credit for being a whole human being by questioning his motives just as I would anyone else’s, if his actions bother me. If I thought he was mentally incapacitated, I would only question his father’s motives. Rick "I said question, not condemn" Denney

– Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

Response:

But again, you’re trying to create information from lack of information, a violation of a logical rule called information entropy. Not at all – I’m simply saying there are other possibilities, and people should not be flogged for suggesting them.

Well, I certainly don’t consider myself to be flogging anybody, and I’ve tried to come to your defense when folks got out the flogging whip (or whatever you flog with.) We KNOW that he’s stated that he enjoys participation in the sport (to the degree he participates).  Without some sort of proof to the contrary, we have no reason to believe otherwise. So we must automatically take him at his word?

In a word, unless we have compelling reason not to, "yes".  It’s called common courtesy. Some of us naysayers have been accused of assuming Rick’s mind is as crippled as his body, but it seems that is more the case when one assumes lack of guile in a disabled person.

But again, if you imply guile, you should provide some positive evidence of the assertion.  The "possibility" of guile does not mean that every person who ever says anything must provide proof of "no guile" By the same token, would you automatically presume that an able bodied person was telling falsehoods?  Of course not, unless you had some compelling reason to believe the person was being dishonest. Rick is perfectly capable of perceiving his father’s enjoyment, and misrepresenting his feelings to protect that.  I also think that if he is doing so, it’s pretty darn noble of him to do so.

I think this is a stretch.  Personally, although I allow that this is the most likely of the conspiracy theories, it still fails Occam’s razor.  It isn’t the simplest logical explanation of observed phenomenon.  There are simpler explanations that do as good (or better) a job of explaining the behavior. No, we have plenty of speculative reasons, and I have no problem with the conclusion that he DOES enjoy it, provided it is reached after examining the possibility that he doesn’t, and based on the evidence. However, I believe that far too much of the harsh response to Mr. Denney’s reaction is based on people’s deciding that Rick Hoyt does enjoy it, merely because that is the conclusion that engenders the strongest warm fuzzy feelings for them.

Actually, if you will recall, I stood in Rick’s shoes last year and got roundly toasted for stating that I simply didn’t think Judy Molnar was very inspirational.  I think this topic deserves reasoned discussion.  I don’t deny you your right to state your case.  I simply wish to provide a rebuttal.  I also agree entirely that any personal attacks against a poster are virtually always unwarranted and degrade our newsgroup. How about the millions of kids whose parents selfishly push them into things they are not suited for?

True, there are SOME.  I find it dubious that there are millions.  Believe it or not, a lot of us wish we were STILL playing little league and gearing up for football.  The overbearing parents are, in my experience, the exception, not the rule.  I see this as an "innocent until proven guilty" situation.  I remember a friend of mine who’s Mom had a doctorate and said that Little League was an unhealthy activity because it served only to aggrandize the parents. Well, if she’d ever seen my play, she’d have changed her mind because my skills on the diamond didn’t aggrandize anyone or anything.  However, I thought it was mighty presumptuous of her to think that unhealthy competitive urges and projection of parental ambitions were the rule and not the exception.  If I may, the same line or reasoning seems to resonate in your posts as well. How about that for a quadriplegic to prefer a contrived pseudo-participation in an activity the very basis of which is able-bodied striving over something in which he can particpate on an equal basis with his father or any other able-bodied person is, at the very least, counter-intuitive?

Actually, the way I look at it, he’s participating the best way he can.  I would hardly call it pseudo-participation.  Cripes, some days, I consider what I’M doing psuedo-participation, but it boils down to a personal experience for each participant.  Isn’t that the theme we touch time and time again on the newsgroup?  That triathlon is an intensely personal and sometimes borderline-spiritual activity that each person can only define for him/herself? Granted, as an able-bodied person, I can’t really see things through Rick Hoyt’s eyes, and there may be some projection involved, but then that makes your side the one that assumes his disability makes his emotions somehow wired differently from the rest of us.

Nah, actually, if anything I’m guilty of presuming that his emotions are wired the SAME as… well… me, anyway.  That he likes watching hockey. That he enjoys the sensation of the road, the run, the water.  That if he could, he’d play a hell of a lot more sports than he currently does, but he’s limited by a condition he was born with.  (I, on the other hand, am limited by having a job, a pretty bad inside game in basketball, and an all-around lack of talent in most things athletic.)  I figure he loves sports.  Some folks are just like that. Also, those who believe that he enjoys it simply because that scenario gives them comfort are projecting their idea of what inspires good feelings onto Rick.

But Brian, if he appeared miserable, we’d have reason to believe he didn’t enjoy it.  However, the limited evidence we have observed suggests the opposite, with an exclamation point:  he loves it. My issue is with those who don’t test and who lash out at htose who suggest that they test.  Mr. Denney didn’t even suggest that anyone else test, merely that he was struck differently, and that prompted HIM to test, and people jumped down his throat.  That’s unconscionable, and you have even posted as much to distance yourself from it.

Yes, I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.  I think we’re here to discuss triathlon and its myriad tangents, not to make personal attacks on people who express an alternative point of view.

Response:

Rick is perfectly capable of perceiving his father’s enjoyment, and misrepresenting his feelings to protect that.  I also think that if he is doing so, it’s pretty darn noble of him to do so.

whoa there! that’s the classical mechanism of codependence. I know you don’t have a lot of respect for the field of psychology (or at least as it is interpreted by the media and masses) but concealing one’s own needs to meet a loved one’s is unhealthy. There’s nothing wrong with sacrifice, but it should be with all parties knowing the true score. If Rick is truly doing this just for his dad, I don’t think there’s anything wrong w/ that as long as they both know it.

Response:

Isn’t that true for anyone?

Yes. Why would you doubt his motives because he speaks through a computer?

I don’t, but nor do I accept his statements merely because he is disabled.  What I do doubt is my ability to judge how genuine his statements are, since his form of communication involves none of the verbal or non-verbal cues we are all used to using in judging whether to believe someone’s words.  I do not say he is not honest, but I acknowledge that he would be better able to deceive me than most. Aren’t we all doing that right now?

I hope not.

Response:

Isn’t that true for anyone? Why would you doubt his motives because he speaks through a computer? Aren’t we all doing that right now?

Turn it around. A skeptic always doubts. Does the need for and use of the computer to communicate relieve the need to doubt? If I doubted Rick Hoyt less than anyone else just because of his infirmities, I’m really insulting him. I’m saying that he’s too crippled to lie to me (or to himself). It’s patronizing, and it’s the kind of attitude on the part of non-handicapped people that upsets many handicapped people the most. I giving him credit for being a whole human being by questioning his motives just as I would anyone else’s, if his actions bother me. If I thought he was mentally incapacitated, I would only question his father’s motives. Rick "I said question, not condemn" Denney

Response:

But again, you’re trying to create information from lack of information, a violation of a logical rule called information entropy.  

Not at all – I’m simply saying there are other possibilities, and people should not be flogged for suggesting them. We KNOW that he’s stated that he enjoys participation in the sport (to the degree he participates).  Without some sort of proof to the contrary, we have no reason to believe otherwise.

So we must automatically take him at his word?  As for evidence tothe contrary, we have no less august authority than the president of the United States, his entire administration, staff, and most of the elected officials from his party telling us that "everybody lies."  Well, isn’t Rick hoyt part of everybody?  Some of us naysayers have been accused of assuming Rick’s mind is as crippled as his body, but it seems that is more the case when one assumes lack of guile in a disabled person.  Rick is perfectly capable of perceiving his father’s enjoyment, and misrepresenting his feelings to protect that.  I also think that if he is doing so, it’s pretty darn noble of him to do so. However, you’re creating a position out of nothing.  There is NO evidence that he does NOT enjoy participation.  In fact, the only evidence in play suggests the opposite position.

No, we have plenty of speculative reasons, and I have no problem with the conclusion that he DOES enjoy it, provided it is reached after examining the possibility that he doesn’t, and based on the evidence. However, I believe that far too much of the harsh response to Mr. Denney’s reaction is based on people’s deciding that Rick Hoyt does enjoy it, merely because that is the conclusion that engenders the strongest warm fuzzy feelings for them.  I like warm fuzzy feelings as much as the next person, but I don’t want them to be based on conclusions drawn merely to reinforce the feelings.  I’d much rather feel good about something knowing that it is what it is based on a logical foundation, so I won’t have those feelings later spoiled by the revelation that all was not as I made myself believe it was. Actually, you’re stretching the definition of "possible".  It’s "possible" that invisible unicorns exist on Mars because we cannot disprove all possible scenarios in which they might.  You’re arguing from an inferior logical position.

No, I’m arguing with people who hold it to be impossible.  In all fairness, Jimmy, I think you left that camp shortly after this began. It’s not only possible, but the probability of it, in my opinion, at least, rises above the noise.  I’m not saying it’s the MOST probable scenario, but that it is one of them, and I for one, am reserving my outpouring of sentiment until I have more evidence to eliminate it. Painful experience has taught me to do so. Is it possible, for instance, that every reader of this newsgroup is a serial killer?  

Not EVERY reader, but there are a few of us who fit the profile. <g An unenlightened mind would say "yes, it’s possible because we can’t completely disprove all scenarios where it may be true.".  However, an enlightened mind would dismiss the idea as being without merit until some proof to the affirmative were offered.

However, this one doesn’t rise to anywhere neaar that level of certainty That’s the way a logical argument is constructed.  One party advances an idea and evidence.  If you disprove the evidence, you disprove the idea. Your idea has no evidence, whatsoever, to support it.  You are attacking the opposing idea without explaining why the evidence (in this case, first hand testimony) is to be dismissed.

How about the millions of kids whose parents selfishly push them into things they are not suited for?  How about that for a quadriplegic to prefer a contrived pseudo-participation in an activity the very basis of which is able-bodied striving over something in which he can particpate on an equal basis with his father or any other able-bodied person is, at the very least, counter-intuitive?  Granted, as an able-bodied person, I can’t really see things through Rick Hoyt’s eyes, and there may be some projection involved, but then that makes your side the one that assumes his disability makes his emotions somehow wired differently from the rest of us.  Also, those who believe that he enjoys it simply because that scenario gives them comfort are projecting their idea of what inspires good feelings onto Rick.  No one REALLY knows but him how he feels about it.  Keep in mind that all I really said is that I would be more impressed by an athletic father who gave up some of his athletic pursuits to take up activities iin which his disabled sone could be his equal.  I’m not necessarily condemning the whole thing, I’m just suggesting that the less than positive feelings some of us have about it might stem from the fact that we don’t see this as the best case scenario, and there are far different approaches we find better.  For all I know they might spend a lot of time playing chess or at some other activity where they are peers, but the TV coverage apparently didn’t mention it.  If so, I find that a defeiciency in their human interest reporting. Brian, it’s not enough to "point out" alternatives.  You must provide some reason for why these alternatives are likely to be true.  

I think I have, and again, I may not even support those alternatives.  I may only be pointing out that other people haven’t even considered their existence, and are simply making a Pavlovian response to a welle wrought TV presentation designed to elicit that response.   Again, are we a collection of mass murderers?  Is that idea equally valid to the concept that we are not all mass murderers?  You’re stating an alternative that has no supporting evidence, whatsoever.

Again, there’s a big difference in the probability there. That’s the difference between critical thinking and pure cynicism.

No, critical thinking ALWAYS checks for alternatives to the emotinal response. Pure cynicism insists on their truth and reflexively casts aside the emotional response.  It moved you.  You were ready to accept that without questioning it.  Someone suggested another angle.  You obviously thought about it and decided it still moved you.  Fine.  There are still some people who refused to think about it and just lashed out at those who suggested they should, in a "how dare you endanger my good feelings" way.  You are not one of them, Jimmy, and I have no quarrel with your reaching a differing conclusion, because your words indicate you really have tested your view.  My issue is with those who don’t test and who lash out at htose who suggest that they test.  Mr. Denney didn’t even suggest that anyone else test, merely that he was struck differently, and that prompted HIM to test, and people jumped down his throat.  That’s unconscionable, and you have even posted as much to distance yourself from it.

Response:

   Dick Hoyt states in the program that he does tri’s because Ricky wants to keep doing them.  When bike broke down he asked Ricky "do you want to keep going?"  He shook his head yes and they hit the road.  Ricky obviously has the mental ability to make decisions for himself.  Let the man do what he wants.

I don’t think anyone’s denying them the right to do it, we’re just debating the validity of various responses to it as a TV spectacle, and whether we think it’s as noble as the coverage made it out to be.   BTW I’m looking for a volunteer to drag ME around IMH next year!

Now THAT’S the most intelligent comment I’ve seen on the whole issue yet.  The question is whether you will compensate them. Brian "will race for free Clif bars" Wagner

Response:

We don’t know what is in the mind of the younger Hoyt.  To Dick’ Doesn’t the young hoyt communicate via the computer?  if so then we know what he choses to share with us.

Exactly – and ONLY what he CHOOSES to share with us.

Response:

Doesn’t the young hoyt communicate via the computer?  if so then we know what he choses to share with us. Exactly – and ONLY what he CHOOSES to share with us.

Isn’t that true for anyone? Why would you doubt his motives because he speaks through a computer? Aren’t we all doing that right now? Before you buy.

Response:

<Hoyt father-son psycho-analysis deleted Well whatever the reasons, I hope that I am as freakin’ strong and fit as Hoyt Sr. when I become 59. Hell, I wish I were that strong now -Rolf —                       This space for rent     IMC’94-14:07   IMC’95-11:59   IMC’97-12:12   IMC’98-14:02                    IMNZ99-11:52   IMLP99-11:59

Response:

We don’t know what is in the mind of the younger Hoyt.  To Dick’

Doesn’t the young hoyt communicate via the computer?  if so then we know what he choses to share with us.  John Hansen  Sarasota Fl.

Response:

Brian "is Mr. Denney really the only other person who ‘gets it’?" Wagner

Actually, my comments were motivated by the fact that I seemed to be the only person who *didn’t* get it. Rick "At least everyone is thinking about it" Denney

Response:

I’ve read the thoughts on the HOYTs   It seems there is the view that the NG is being being tortured, perhaps I saw a different show but the one I saw showed a man {the son} whos handicap is MS.  He attended public school, attended college, and though his body doesnt respond, his brain does. The show I saw showed a man who communicated via the computer. He is quite aware of what He and his father are enduring. I don’t understand the view that the father is exploiting/torturing his son…That is not what the show I watch portrayed…. Someone whom I dont recall their identity suggested that the father and son should sit inside playing chess…. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING,  isn’t that the exact thing that the "authorities" suggested the father do with his son…. Ahh just hide him away, visit him once a month, don’t forget the chess board. that is nutz…. The people who suggested "chess" should be ashamed of themselves.  John Hansen  Sarasota Fl.

Response:

I’ve read the thoughts on the HOYTs   It seems there is the view that the NG is being being tortured, perhaps I saw a different show but the one I saw showed a man {the son} whos handicap is MS.  He attended public school, attended college, and though his body doesnt respond, his brain does. The show I saw showed a man who communicated via the computer. He is quite aware of what He and his father are enduring. I don’t understand the view that the father is exploiting/torturing his son…That is not what the show I watch portrayed…. Someone whom I dont recall their identity suggested that the father and son should sit inside playing chess…. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING,  isn’t that the exact thing that the "authorities" suggested the father do with his son…. Ahh just hide him away, visit him once a month, don’t forget the chess board. that is nutz…. The people who suggested "chess" should be ashamed of themselves.

John, you didn’t read the post in question very carefully.  It was Ruth who posted that, and you missed the context of what she was saying.  She explained that the "mother" instinct in her produced this gut reaction—- the desire to protect a child from harm.  In no way was she disparaging the Hoyts’ efforts and accomplishments; she was just expressing one facet of her personal response to their saga.  We all have "gut reactions" to things that might not necessarily be rational or "correct" in some way. Ruth was just copping to her own natural protective, motherly instinct, the desire to protect folks she cares about from harm.  She explained that the "mother" in her is just one of her many "heads", and her other "heads" had other reactions (i.e., her athlete head understands, admires and encourages the Hoyts). Ruth, correct me if I messed any of that up! — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

Response:

Someone whom I dont recall their identity suggested that the father and son should sit inside playing chess…. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING,  isn’t that the exact thing that the "authorities" suggested the father do with his son…. Ahh just hide him away, visit him once a month, don’t forget the chess board. that is nutz…. The people who suggested "chess" should be ashamed of themselves.

        It was me who suggested that they try something like chess where they both could be equal participants and I never said anything about indoors.  Nor did I say anything about monthly visits, institutions, or hiding anyone away.  I have a coworker who, with her husband, puts in as much time and effort as Dick Hoyt does supporting, coaching, etc., for her son’s pursuit of chess as a VERY PUBLIC TOURNAMENT PURSUIT.  His father plays with him daily, coaching him, competing with him; his mother drives all over the state to tournaments, raises funds for his high school chess team, hosts parties for all his teammates (no one mentioned whether triathlon has netted a quadriplegic many peer friends that he can share activities with as an equal.)           If Rick’s disability was sufficient to preclude any possibility of triathlon or other such pursuits (say he also lacked an immune system and had to live in a ‘bubble’) and chess was all that was feasible, would you then excuse the father for not spending time with him, since he apparently views a game of chess as tantamount to abandonment.           Heaven forbid that anyone suggest we emphasize developing the minds of those whose bodies don’t operate up to spec.  Steven Hawking must REALLY feel bad that no one’s dragging him around a triathlon course and he has to waste his time answering some of mankind’s toughest questions.         Maybe you just think chess and other pursuits of the mind are just for sissies.  I’ve tried playing basketball against two brothers who were on a high school chess team that won the national championship, and let me tell you, I couldn’t keep up (that was in my pre-triathlon days, though.) Brian "is Mr. Denney really the only other person who ‘gets it’?" Wagner

Response:

Brian "is Mr. Denney really the only other person who ‘gets it’?" Wagner

Ok, I have tried to avoid entering into the Hoyt melee….but this last statement ‘got me’. I watched the IMH, and I too was initially in awe of the Hoyts (And I am still damn impressed). The things I thought, however were much the same. I wondered if the son got joy out of the race, spending time with his dad, or if there was some kind of guilt thing going on. The other questions I had were along the lines of "what does the younger Hoyt do during training?" "Are there other things they do besides physical events?" and others along those lines. After reading all the posts, and flames, and reflames, and reflections and philosphizing, I am left still with one question that I don’t think can be answered… Does Hoyt the younger enjoy the events (And all that goes with…training, etc) or does he get his enjoyment from his Dad’s sense of satisfaction? John "No, Mr. Denney is not the only one…" "Ad astra per aspera" "A rough road leads to the stars"

Response:

Actually, I found nothing offensive about your suggestion about playing chess. The only thing I’ll say is that they both, father and son, seem to enjoy participation in triathlon. For all we know, one or the other of them does not necessarily like chess. Plus, this sort of touches on something that bothers me (way OT), and might be a pet peeve of yours, too. People presume knowledge from lack of knowledge.  This, quite frankly, for reasons too involved to go into here, is a fundamental violation of the rules of logic. As an engineer, I’m sure you’ve run into it.  People know you have technical skills, and therefore conclude that you must have no interpersonal skills. (Assuming that the presence of A implies a lack of B.) Likewise, you find folks with no interpersonal skills and folks think, "he should go into math or science."  Where this falls down is that the presence of an antisocial nature has nothing to do with an aptitude in math and science (although it may make them more likely to want to relate to a computer than to people.  This assumes that the lack of B implies the presence of A.) While in my MBA program, the soft-skill folks (marketing and org. behavior) would presume that anybody with technical aptitudes lacked creativity. (News to me… I guess I was wasting a lot of time with all those classes in the college of music while getting my information systems degree.) Likewise, they presumed that a lack of technical abilities implied some sort of increased creativity, which is crap as well.  (Lack of a skill set does not predispose a person to the presence of a completely disrelated skill set.) The only flaw I see in the chess suggestion is that lack of physical skills does not necessarily mean that they younger Hoyt would find joy in a purely intellectual pursuit like chess.  I know that, although I can play, I don’t find it that fun, and a lot of folks feel the same way.  At the very least, the younger Hoyt enjoys watching Hockey, so he enjoys sports as a spectator. Who’s to say that he doesn’t enjoy the wind in his face, the motion of the water, the roll of the road, just as much as we do?  Okay, we’ve got a form of exertion that he doesn’t have to face, but that’s outside his frame of reference.  He literally doesn’t know what it means to go into exertion as part of the sport (likewise, we don’t know the difficulty of the physical obstacles he has to overcome). Can we allow for the possibility that he really, genuinely enjoys the sensations of triathlon?  We do.  Is it such a stretch to think he may, too? Is it possible that maybe he’d find chess boring?  I know I do. The point I’m getting at is that the differences between he and I are rather stark and obvious.  However, beyond the obvious differences, I see no reason to presume he’s any different from me than you are different from me. Again, I didn’t think the chess suggestion was offensive.  Maybe that’s just not thrilling to him.  Sometimes the obvious answer is the best one. (Occam’s razor and all.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someone whom I dont recall their identity suggested that the father and son should sit inside playing chess…. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING,  isn’t that the exact thing that the "authorities" suggested the father do with his son…. Ahh just hide him away, visit him once a month, don’t forget the chess board. that is nutz…. The people who suggested "chess" should be ashamed of themselves. It was me who suggested that they try something like chess where they both could be equal participants and I never said anything about indoors.  Nor did I say anything about monthly visits, institutions, or hiding anyone away.  I have a coworker who, with her husband, puts in as much time and effort as Dick Hoyt does supporting, coaching, etc., for her son’s pursuit of chess as a VERY PUBLIC TOURNAMENT PURSUIT.  His father plays with him daily, coaching him, competing with him; his mother drives all over the state to tournaments, raises funds for his high school chess team, hosts parties for all his teammates (no one mentioned whether triathlon has netted a quadriplegic many peer friends that he can share activities with as an equal.) If Rick’s disability was sufficient to preclude any possibility of triathlon or other such pursuits (say he also lacked an immune system and had to live in a ‘bubble’) and chess was all that was feasible, would you then excuse the father for not spending time with him, since he apparently views a game of chess as tantamount to abandonment. Heaven forbid that anyone suggest we emphasize developing the minds of those whose bodies don’t operate up to spec.  Steven Hawking must REALLY feel bad that no one’s dragging him around a triathlon course and he has to waste his time answering some of mankind’s toughest questions. Maybe you just think chess and other pursuits of the mind are just for sissies.  I’ve tried playing basketball against two brothers who were on a high school chess team that won the national championship, and let me tell you, I couldn’t keep up (that was in my pre-triathlon days, though.) Brian "is Mr. Denney really the only other person who ‘gets it’?" Wagner

Response:

Steven Hawking must REALLY feel bad that no one’s dragging him around a triathlon course and he has to waste his time answering some of mankind’s toughest questions

Hawking is the reason we spent four months in Cambridge.  My husband was working with him.  So we and our children who came with us were priviledged to know him up close and personal.  His physical achievements were remarkable for someone in his condition.  He managed to drive a car with special equipment and partially feed himself.  He was very kind to us, showed us around the campus, made sure we felt welcome, introduced us to his friends, one of whom has since won a Nobel prize.  He took charge of his life in every way he could and he still does.  Even when his speech had become totally intelligible he insisted on travelling and getting up to face his audience while what he was saying was projected.  Remarkable man.   We don’t know what is in the mind of the younger Hoyt.  To Dick’s credit, he was given an education although that  must have entailed a great deal of time and devotion for his parents.  He may very well be capable of a fine game of chess.  It’s not a game limited to the inmates of institutions for the unwanted. Ruth Kazez

Response:

Actually, I found nothing offensive about your suggestion about playing chess. The only thing I’ll say is that they both, father and son, seem to enjoy participation in triathlon.

Again, SEEM For all we know, one or the other of them does not necessarily like chess.

Definitely – it was but one suggestion among many possibilities for activitiees they BOTH could participate in as equals. Plus, this sort of touches on something that bothers me (way OT), and might be a pet peeve of yours, too. The only flaw I see in the chess suggestion is that lack of physical skills does not necessarily mean that they younger Hoyt would find joy in a purely intellectual pursuit like chess.  

There is no assumption of the sort.  Merely the point that such pursuits are the only venues where he can join his father as an equal.  He is physically disabled, but intellectually, there is not such a gulf separating his abilities from his father’s.  I am suggesting the possibility that they migh enjoy a more meaningful interaction in a realm where they are on equal footing. Say you spoke reasonable English and outstanding French, and I spoke English as well as you did, and outstanding German.  I could lead you around by the hand through Germany, making your experience of the people and culture completely dependent on me, or you could lead me around through France, but we might be able to share the experience of touring England more thoroughly than we ever would either of the former alternatives.  I would be far more impressed by a father who sacrificed an area of interest his son could never fully participate in to spend time with the son in a way that they could share truly equally. I know that, although I can play, I don’t find it that fun, and a lot of folks feel the same way.  At the very least, the younger Hoyt enjoys watching Hockey, so he enjoys sports as a spectator.

Which is all he really is in Triathlon. Who’s to say that he doesn’t enjoy the wind in his face, the motion of the water, the roll of the road, just as much as we do?  Okay, we’ve got a form of exertion that he doesn’t have to face, but that’s outside his frame of reference.  He literally doesn’t know what it means to go into exertion as part of the sport (likewise, we don’t know the difficulty of the physical obstacles he has to overcome).

Exactly, it’s a sport where a large part of it is Greek to him.  Neither on of them can truly know, or even grasp, the experience of the other. Can we allow for the possibility that he really, genuinely enjoys the sensations of triathlon?  We do.  Is it such a stretch to think he may, too?

Can we also allow for the possibility that he is just saying so to gain the father’s approval, and this is some new twist on the parent who pushes their kid into their own interests agaionst the kid’s natural talent? Is it possible that maybe he’d find chess boring?  I know I do.

Is it possible the father, athlete and marine, is the one who’d really find it boring, and the son has felt bad about not being able to share his father’s activities, and so jumps at any opportunity to feel more a part of his dad’s life?  Is it possible that the father would have gladly given up triathlon for chess if he only knew?  Is it possible that each is laboring under illusions about what the other feels?  An openness to other possibilities that aren’t as emotionally appealing is all I’ve really advocated here. The point I’m getting at is that the differences between he and I are rather stark and obvious.  However, beyond the obvious differences, I see no reason to presume he’s any different from me than you are different from me.

Nor do I see any reason to presume the other way, except that it supports the warm feelings the TV coverage apparently engendered.  For me, that’s not enough to justify dismissing all other alternatives. Brian "always pointing out the alternatives" Wagner

Response:

Question:

Sometimes cool water will make you want to pee in the wet suit.  I discovered by accident that if I have a chance I pour warm water into my suit as soon as I get it on.  Keeps my body heat up in cooler conditions and takes away the desire to pee in the suit for me. Bob

You know, I was starting to get depressed, seeing the "Napolean" type trolls infecting RST and RR.  This thread has lifted my spirits!  It’s about people helping people pee.  Some might laugh (like me!), but it’s a real topic that is coming up with some good answers. Carry on! -Andrew

Response:

I spent many years as a military diver and we had a saying that I think also applies to triathletes.  "There are two kinds of divers, those that pee in their wetsuit and those that lie about it." Jim"where did that warm current come from"Driscoll

Response:

Sometimes cool water will make you want to pee in the wet suit.  I discovered by accident that if I have a chance I pour warm water into my suit as soon as I get it on.  Keeps my body heat up in cooler conditions and takes away the desire to pee in the suit for me. Bob

Response:

I remember one day when I was shedding my wetsuit.   There was a young boy nearby about 5 years old.   He was watching me very carefully then he said "Hey mister, you smell just like pee",   Hah, what can I say, it was a long swim. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of pee….. I ALWAYS have to relieve myself when I get out of T2.  It doesn’t matter if it’s a short sprint, Olympic distance, or long workout. Whenever I go from the bike to the run, I have to ‘go’.  Is this common? Well, it’s definitely true for me in 1/2 IM’s, much to my chagrin and to the detriment of my bike splits, since they usually tack your transition times on to your bike time  I swear I wasted a full minute at Vineman this year bouncing back and forth between these two portajohns that were 20 yards apart at the run start.  Every time someone would pop out of one, I’d head toward it, but before I’d get there someone else would slip in, so I’d head back toward the other one, and the same thing would happen—AARRRGH! I was appalled to see a male athlete’s solution to this problem, however. 1/4 mile into the run, out in the middle of the vineyard, he stepped in between the rows of grapevines and relieved himself right there.  I couldn’t believe it, it was so RUDE.  I mean, couldn’t he have waited ’til the first aid station?  Or couldn’t he at least have gone off to the other side of the trail, which was just bushes and trees and scrub? I feel sorry for whoever buys the wine made from *those* grapes.  :p — Tri-Baby                                     _                                  -    o     ‘             –  __o       –    </_ `     ‘         –    <         – __/   /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips: http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html

Response:

I spent many years as a military diver and we had a saying that I think also applies to triathletes.  "There are two kinds of divers, those that pee in their wetsuit and those that lie about it." I have not yet peed in my 3/5 hooded windsurf suit.  I have had it for 3 years.

Oh, so you’re one of the ones that lies… David "see the smiley?" Wuth / FEY2K – IMCAL < 15:00:00 (remove spaces) at att dot net

Response:

What is the longest time you have stayed in it?

Lying?  Well, I have peed in plenty of wetsuits, but I really hate it for a variety of reasons. Two hours I would guess. Although I have been out longer.  I do pee before and after.  I hate peeing in the wetsuit.   My tricks: 1. I prefer a bathroom nearby the water entry and exit points however; 2.. Pee immediately before and immediately after the session. Baggies in car. Pee in baggie while in car discretely and dispose of in local trash or pour into grass. 3. Bring warm water in a thermos.  Immediately upon getting suit on, pour warm water into suit.  I have found this is comfortable, replaces lost heat during the change, saves my internal energy, and stops that cold water entry wanta pee response. Bob

Response:

I spent many years as a military diver and we had a saying that I think also applies to triathletes.  "There are two kinds of divers, those that pee in their wetsuit and those that lie about it."

I have not yet peed in my 3/5 hooded windsurf suit.  I have had it for 3 years. Bob

Response:

What is the longest time you have stayed in it? Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I spent many years as a military diver and we had a saying that I think also applies to triathletes.  "There are two kinds of divers, those that pee in their wetsuit and those that lie about it." I have not yet peed in my 3/5 hooded windsurf suit.  I have had it for 3 years. Bob

Response:

Well, I learned a couple years ago at IMH that it is sort of rude, not to mention wasting time to pee along side the road.   It was the beginning of the run and I was in a bad way.  Now, Alii drive does not offer many opportunities to get into the bushes.  I  was running close behind a female triathlete and noticed her stride change slightly and also that a lot of fluid was running down her legs.  Hummm, no aid station so it was not water poured over her head.   Well why not try,  and guess what,  I will never run into the bushes again nor run for one of those unsanitary porta potties. Please do not do this while passing through an aid station though and as on the bike, give some consideration to those close behind you. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of pee….. I ALWAYS have to relieve myself when I get out of T2.  It doesn’t matter if it’s a short sprint, Olympic distance, or long workout. Whenever I go from the bike to the run, I have to ‘go’.  Is this common? Well, it’s definitely true for me in 1/2 IM’s, much to my chagrin and to the detriment of my bike splits, since they usually tack your transition times on to your bike time  I swear I wasted a full minute at Vineman this year bouncing back and forth between these two portajohns that were 20 yards apart at the run start.  Every time someone would pop out of one, I’d head toward it, but before I’d get there someone else would slip in, so I’d head back toward the other one, and the same thing would happen—AARRRGH! I was appalled to see a male athlete’s solution to this problem, however. 1/4 mile into the run, out in the middle of the vineyard, he stepped in between the rows of grapevines and relieved himself right there.  I couldn’t believe it, it was so RUDE.  I mean, couldn’t he have waited ’til the first aid station?  Or couldn’t he at least have gone off to the other side of the trail, which was just bushes and trees and scrub? I feel sorry for whoever buys the wine made from *those* grapes.  :p — Tri-Baby                                     _                                  -    o     ‘             –  __o       –    </_ `     ‘         –    <         – __/   /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips: http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html

Response:

GMP1993 says… Can you pee in it? Sure but just remember that a recent study into shark attacks pointed out that a majority of surfers who were attacked had pee’d in their wetsuits shortly before being attacked leading the researchers to believe that the sharks were attracted to the concentrated urine.

I’d pee in my wetsuit too if a shark attacked me!! By the way, how do these researchers distinguish pre-shark attack pee from post-shark attack pee??                                 -Barnacle Bill Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I’d pee in my wetsuit too if a shark attacked me!! By the way, how do these researchers distinguish pre-shark attack pee from post-shark attack pee??                                -Barnacle Bill

Apparently they interviewed the survivors and determined from them what happed just prior to the attack. Of course the researchers may well have come up with the wrong conclusion.  The survivors may have pee’d in their wetsuits but did the non-survivors? It may turn out that the smell of urine actually turned the shark away thus saving the life of the attackee. AJ (Slowly reaching enlightenment) — If swimming is so good for the figure, explain whales Simon Haigh Illawarra Triathlon Club – Australia http://members.xoom.com/ajsimon/index.htm    

Response:

Speaking of pee….. I ALWAYS have to relieve myself when I get out of T2.  It doesn’t matter if it’s a short sprint, Olympic distance, or long workout. Whenever I go from the bike to the run, I have to ‘go’.  Is this common? Thanx When you have to go, you have to go.  I’ll take the risk.

–  Gus Coll                     o    "Life is short.                   __o       </_    Learn fast!"     /o__       _ <_     __/      

Response:

Just swam a couple miles at the local YMCA the other day. Had to pee twice. What do you do on 2.4 mile swim in a race with a wetsuit on? Can you pee in it? Man I dont know if I could go that far without having to pee. But come to think of it, I think they let you run on the beach for 50 yards halfway thru the race…maybe that will be my chance. Any thoughts? Its the Pineman Mohican…love to hear your ideas….

Response:

Speaking of pee….. I ALWAYS have to relieve myself when I get out of T2.  It doesn’t matter if it’s a short sprint, Olympic distance, or long workout. Whenever I go from the bike to the run, I have to ‘go’.  Is this common?

Well, it’s definitely true for me in 1/2 IM’s, much to my chagrin and to the detriment of my bike splits, since they usually tack your transition times on to your bike time  I swear I wasted a full minute at Vineman this year bouncing back and forth between these two portajohns that were 20 yards apart at the run start.  Every time someone would pop out of one, I’d head toward it, but before I’d get there someone else would slip in, so I’d head back toward the other one, and the same thing would happen—AARRRGH! I was appalled to see a male athlete’s solution to this problem, however. 1/4 mile into the run, out in the middle of the vineyard, he stepped in between the rows of grapevines and relieved himself right there.  I couldn’t believe it, it was so RUDE.  I mean, couldn’t he have waited ’til the first aid station?  Or couldn’t he at least have gone off to the other side of the trail, which was just bushes and trees and scrub? I feel sorry for whoever buys the wine made from *those* grapes.  :p — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

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Hmmm… does that apply to mountain lions, rattlesnakes, etc.?

Believe it or not, rattlesnakes do have a keen sense of smell.  One recommended deterent is to actually leave dog feces by/under your fence. Certainly won’t stop a rattlesnake, but most (given the choice) will avoid the area. Pat

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for everyone doing IMCali- i read or heard that sharks are attracted to the smell of urine, even hour old smells.

this was a study done either in Australia or New Zealand. Of course for the Mohican Pineman (freshwater Ohio swim) you don’t have to worry about sharks so go for it if you need to. pat

Response:

I was appalled to see a male athlete’s solution to this problem, however. 1/4 mile into the run, out in the middle of the vineyard, he stepped in between the rows of grapevines and relieved himself right there.  I couldn’t believe it, it was so RUDE.  I mean, couldn’t he have waited ’til the first aid station?  Or couldn’t he at least have gone off to the other side of the trail, which was just bushes and trees and scrub? I feel sorry for whoever buys the wine made from *those* grapes.  :p — Tri-Baby

I wonder if Tri-Baby wants some cheese with that WHINE?  ;-) D.J. "Has anyone told you how nice you look today? If not, Tri-Baby, let me be the first." (IRONKID)

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What do you do on 2.4 mile swim in a race with a wetsuit on? Can you pee in it?

for everyone doing IMCali- i read or heard that sharks are attracted to the smell of urine, even hour old smells.  something to keep in mind since they just spotted a 10ft great white off la jolla. todd sandiego

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for everyone doing IMCali- i read or heard that sharks are attracted to the smell of urine, even hour old smells.  something to keep in mind since they just spotted a 10ft great white off la jolla.

I have heard them state this over and over. Saying that this is a factor is shark attacks. If that were the case then every surfer and triathlete who ever entered the ocean should have been attacked by now, because you know that we all do it! Mark Rinaldi Inland Inferno Triathlon Club http://members.aol.com/infernotri/home.htm

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i never,ever pee in my wetsuit;^) todd sandiego

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GMP1993 says… Can you pee in it?

Sure but just remember that a recent study into shark attacks pointed out that a majority of surfers who were attacked had pee’d in their wetsuits shortly before being attacked leading the researchers to believe that the sharks were attracted to the concentrated urine. However as I’ve said several times it would have to be either a really stupid shark or a real hungry one to stay in the same general area as several hundred thrashing triathletes. AJ (whos glad he’s a MOP swimmer) — If swimming is so good for the figure, explain whales Simon Haigh Illawarra Triathlon Club – Australia http://members.xoom.com/ajsimon/index.htm    

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for everyone doing IMCali- i read or heard that sharks are attracted to the smell of urine, even hour old smells.  something to keep in mind since they just spotted a 10ft great white off la jolla.

Hmmm… does that apply to mountain lions, rattlesnakes, etc.? David "it’s an inside joke on the IMCA comment page…"/ FEY2K (remove spaces) at att dot net

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Would you be taking about La jolla cove? I swam there a week or so ago and I have to admit that the thought crossed my mind once or twice!! Kris Estes Flagstaff, AZ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you do on 2.4 mile swim in a race with a wetsuit on? Can you pee in it? for everyone doing IMCali- i read or heard that sharks are attracted to the smell of urine, even hour old smells.  something to keep in mind since they just spotted a 10ft great white off la jolla. todd sandiego

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"I think they let you run on the beach for 50 yards halfway thru the race…maybe that will be my chance. Any thoughts? Its the Pineman Mohican…love to hear your ideas…." Hey I’m doing that race and was worried about my tender feet running 50 yards on the beach.  Don’t make me have to dodge your puddles too! —

Response:

When you have to go, you have to go.  I’ll take the risk.

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Question:

Hi, I’m thinking about purchasing an aerobar. I did a couple of local sprint races. I am a cyclist/runner and thinking about getting more serious in tris. Here is the list of the options: 1). Profile Airstryke bar — Spring-loaded armrests, fully adjustable     length and armrest width. Venturi pads channel air, dissipate     perspiration. 490g. 2). Profile Split Second bar — Adjustable two-piece aerobar. Non-moving     F-18 armrests are adjustable in width 3). Profile Superstryke Add-on — F-18 armrests with fore and aft     adjustability and lock downs to keep the armrest down. The armrests     automatically flip up when not on bars. 490g. Thank you very much for any inputs. -Noppanunt

Response:

FWIW, I use the Profile Superstrykes simply because they offer more hand positions( palms up, palms down,palms to the side).Mine don’t have the lock down option so I zip tied them down. I have plenty of room on my cowhorn bars and the flipping up and down drove me nuts! I would advise you  to try all of the bars if possible before making any decision. Bob Walter

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Stay away from the split seconds.  The clamp and screw are not strong enough for a two piece handlebar.  In fact, the clamp and screw is a very good example of a very very bad engineering design.  It seems to work ok on the one piece handlebar because when you pull on the bar the load will be distributed on both clamps.  With the split seconds, it is impossible to secure them bumpproof without stripping the threads on the clamp.  Two local bike shops now don’t sell the split seconds because of that.  Still profile keeps on selling the bar.  As far as I know, the superstryke seems OK. I would however recommend that you stay away from a company that keeps a product on the market when it surely knows it is a badly designed. Go syntace.  most poeple here will agree. Francois Brissette says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, I’m thinking about purchasing an aerobar. I did a couple of local sprint races. I am a cyclist/runner and thinking about getting more serious in tris. Here is the list of the options: 1). Profile Airstryke bar — Spring-loaded armrests, fully adjustable    length and armrest width. Venturi pads channel air, dissipate    perspiration. 490g. 2). Profile Split Second bar — Adjustable two-piece aerobar. Non-moving    F-18 armrests are adjustable in width 3). Profile Superstryke Add-on — F-18 armrests with fore and aft    adjustability and lock downs to keep the armrest down. The armrests    automatically flip up when not on bars. 490g. Thank you very much for any inputs. -Noppanunt

Response:

I would avoid all the profile aero bars.  They simply do not hold under heavy training and racing volumes.  I’ve personally had two sets fail (one during an ironman at mile 2!).  I also know others who have had the same problems. I would look at Syntace if I were you

Response:

Noppanunt: I’ve used several Profile aerobars over a period of several years. My recommendation is very simple: don’t buy any aerobars (or any other product) from Profile. My latest experiences are illustrative: 1) My aerobars (Split-Second, I think) kept moving around on my handlebars. I kept tightening them up to keep this from happening until… I stripped the threads. The problem is that the threads weren’t stripped from the BOLT (which I could replace at the hardware store) no… the threads stripped from the BAR (and can’t be fixed cheaply). I consider this poor design… either they should have used a nut to hold the bolt or made the bar strong enough to strip the screw… 2) My Off-the-Back water-bottle holder snapped off when I went over a relatively easy ’speed-bump’. The weather was a little cold… which I think is what did it… but not freezing. I attribute the blame to CHEAP PLASTIC. It’s not like I had a lot of weight on the things, either. (1 small water bottle) I would encourage you to investigate other brands with (hopefully) better standards. Regards, Kevin Mitchell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking about purchasing an aerobar. <snip Thank you very much for any inputs.

Response:

I agree profile’s quality sucks.  I would buy Syntace or Scott RCO’s (I have two sets and they seem to be very sturdy). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would avoid all the profile aero bars.  They simply do not hold under heavy training and racing volumes.  I’ve personally had two sets fail (one during an ironman at mile 2!).  I also know others who have had the same problems. I would look at Syntace if I were you

Response:

Easy. Go with Syntace! I’m buying my second pair for my second bike now. -Rolf — I am Iron Mac…       …a student of Ironman, ever learning…                                       …about having faith.         IMC’94/14:07    IMC’95/11:59    IMC’97/12:12    IMC’98/14:02

Response:

I would avoid all the profile aero bars.  They simply do not hold under heavy training and racing volumes.  I’ve personally had two sets fail (one during an ironman at mile 2!).  I also know others who have had the same problems. I would look at Syntace if I were you

I have to agree that the Syntace are nice (otherwise we wouldn’t spec them this year) and that Profile wasn’t always hmm….. up to par, but they have overhauled all their products for 1999 and they seem to be better now. Let’s wait and see. Gerard Vroomen, Cervelo Cycles. website: http://www.cervelo.com

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I agree profile’s quality sucks.  I would buy Syntace or Scott RCO’s (I have two sets and they seem to be very sturdy).

I’ve heard that Scott went out of business?  Last sunday I went on a ride with some roadies(of course if my hamstring doesn’t get better I may soon become one) and one of them was looking for some scott bars and said that they had gone out of business. Matt

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I’ve heard that Scott went out of business?  Last sunday I went on a ride with some roadies(of course if my hamstring doesn’t get better I may soon become one) and one of them was looking for some scott bars and said that they had gone out of business. Matt

Actually, I have heard the excact same. The funny thing is, if you look on the sticker that comes on new syntace and profile aerobars is says "patented Scott, Inc. …..blah blah blah".  Weird. keep it real… — Ravi S. Raman Penn State Triathlon Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/triclub

Response:

I HAVE BEEN USING PROFILE (AIRSTYKE AND SPLIT SECOND – ALL VARIATIONS) FOR ABOUT 2 YRS.  UNFORTUNATELY, THAT’S TWO YEARS TOO LONG.  THEY HAVE GOOD DESIGN IDEAS, BUT SEEM A LITTLE SHORT ON PLANNING, FIELD TESTING AND/OR QUALITY. I WOULD SPECIALLY STAY AWAY FROM THE SPLIT SECOND.  IT HAS A MAJOR DESIGN FLAW.  ONE SIDE WILL ROTATE AND COME LOOSE.  THE PROBLEM HAS TO DO WITH THE DIRECTION OF THE BOLT THREADING.  AT ANY RATE, IT’S SOMETHING I GOT USE TO AND LEARN TO EXPECT THIS PROBLEM AND SERVICED THE BAR (A LOT!).  I’M SURPISED I DIDN’T STRIP AND OR WEAR OUT THE BOLT. THE AIRSTRYKE HAS A BETTER DESIGN IN TERMS OF FUNCTION, BUT IT ALSO SEEMS TO HAVE SOME STRIPPING PROBLEMS THE BRACKETS THAT HOLD THE AEROBARS TO THE HANDLEBARS. HOWEVER, THEY WILL SEND YOU NEW BRACKETS FOR PRETTY PENNY.  ALSO, DON’T EXPECT THE PERSONEL TO GET YOUR ORDER RIGHT ON THE FIRST TRY…IT TOOK ME 3 OVERNIGHT ORDERS FOR THEM TO FIGURE OUT THAT I WANTED SPLIT-SECOND BRACKETS NOT THE OTHER STYLE OF AERO BAR BRACKETS (OR, THEY DIDN’T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE).  AND, OH YES, THEY CHARGED ME FOR EVERY ORDER INCL. OVERNIGHT SHIPPING COSTS (EVEN THOUGH IT WAS THEIR FAULT)…AH WELL, THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT I HAD THEM THE DAY BEFORE THE RACE. FWIW JOE Hi, I’m thinking about purchasing an aerobar. I did a couple of local sprint races. I am a cyclist/runner and thinking about getting more serious in tris. Here is the list of the options: 1). Profile Airstryke bar — Spring-loaded armrests, fully adjustable 2). Profile Split Second bar — Adjustable two-piece aerobar. Non-moving 3). Profile Superstryke Add-on — F-18 armrests with fore and aft Thank you very much for any inputs. -Noppanunt

Response:

Actually, I have heard the excact same. The funny thing is, if you look on the sticker that comes on new syntace and profile aerobars is says "patented Scott, Inc. …..blah blah blah".  Weird.

Scott USA holds the US patent on the clip-on aerobar. Anyone who manufactures and sells any variation on the Scott clip-on bar must pay a fee to Scott for the patent right. Scott did not go out of business, but did get out of the US market for reasons known only to them, I guess. Cheers’ Amndrew

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Steve, First let me thank the USAT team for working so hard in conjunction with Terry Davis to put on a great Wildflower race. You all handled your responsibilities admirably. I would like to broach a subject that does reflect negatively on the competitors. It is a responsibility we all share: control of course litter. I was appalled and angered at the amount of trash discarded by my fellow participants. I watched a number of racers tear open food wrappers and toss them. It is unacceptable behavior. It is illegal behavior. It is an embarrassment to our sport. I purpose that littering be monitored by the course Marshall

Question:

                   Ironman Is a Hoax

Could not resist posting a huge (and loud):                 LOL!  LOL!  LOL! Greg Pressler

Response:

Whoa, a little hard on the guy aren’t we.  Chill-out a little and enjoy the humor of the story.  If you didn’t laugh when you read that you were either having a bad day or have no sense of humor at all. I laughed my ass off Brandon

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Guys, Don’t you know parody and sarcasm when you see it? Personally, I thought it was funny as hell, especially the parody of conspiracy theorists in the discussion of the pro-only meetings at IM races. I think the complainer is part of the conspiracy also, and is trying to deflect accusations by making it sound rediculous. After all, I destroy myself to run a 22-minute 5K, so he must also be cheating. The guys that pass me so effortlessly on the run, especially those that I dusted on the bike, must be operating in a parallel (and faster) universe without a license. Please, guys, the tongue planted firmly in cheek really should be obvious. If it isn’t, assume that it is, and respond in kind. Then, if the guy really was serious (and a serious lunatic), he’ll still get the point. Too much serious bitching going on around here: everybody’s on edge. Must be the heat and humidity this time of year.

Hear, hear!  I was absolutely shocked to read the two posts that apparently took the "Hoax" post seriously.  Come on, could the humor have been MORE obvious?? Sheesh, lighten up, guys!  Like Rick, I was laughing my head off.  I *really* enjoyed that post.  I knew there had to be a rational explanation for the speeds that those durned pros can maintain; there’s just no way a human being could go that fast for that long, that’s all there is to it. Lest anyone miss it, here is my smiley to indicate that I am JOKING:  ;-) Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

David, You have only touched the tip of the iceberg.  The Pros don’t even paricipate in the race.  The show up, walk around, shake a few hands and then head back to their hotels.  The shots you see of them racing are actually done on a sound stage and with the help of mirrors.    As time runs down, they do a "Rosie Ruiz" and jump onto the course with about a mile to go.   Most of them are hard drinking, smoking, drug using 250lb musicians. I’ve heard some of them jam with Jimmy Hendricks, Elvis and Stevie Ray Vaughn.  They are actually not that bad. Eric p.s. I don’t know which was funnier, your post, or the responses from people who thought you were serious. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                         Ironman Is a Hoax      So, 20 some days away from Ironman Canada, I am forced to conclude that Ironman triathlons are a complete and utter hoax. Ironman Hawaii: never happened. 7:50 at Ironman Germany: not a chance. 8:04 at Ironman Canada: a complete lie. Now before you all send me hate mail, malicious flames, and personal attacks, here me out, I too was ignorant.      I went for a 5 km. run last week. For a potential ironman that isn’t much, but I was recovering from road-rash and it was a "do my legs still work with all these scabs" type run. I planned to take it easy, but after 200 m. I realized two important things: my legs still worked, and I had a lot of energy left over from my recovery week. The net result was me running like a bat out of hell and setting a personal best of 19:41. What does this have to do with Ironman hoaxes? Allow me to continue.      I ran hard. In fact, I ran really hard! The weirdos in the car who followed me for a kilometre laughing recognized that I was running fast. The poor guy in nearly ran over while he was walking his dog must has concluded I was flying. The old couple I barrelled by nearly had heart-attacks. I was fast! I felt ill, wasted, exhausted but triumphant. I set a personal best, but more to the point I can to my stunning Ironman realization. The facts:      I ran 5 km. in 19:41, my pace being 3:56 minutes a kilometre. Now let us pretend I am a professional hoaxer, I mean triathlete. I would complete the marathon portion in around 2:45 hours, probably lower. That would put my pace at 3:55 minutes a kilometre. In other words, if I was a professional triathlete, I would be going faster during the marathon, after 3.8 km. swimming and 180 km. cycling, than I went during my 5 km. training run after a weeks rest. I find this completely unacceptable.      There is absolutely no way that someone can run that fast at the end of a marathon. I just isn’t humanly possible. I am a skinny guy, I should be able to run fast, and by God I can! These so called "athletes" aren’t athletes at all, they are simply con artists and we are the victims, and I have just proved it! The conclusion:      Ironman is a hoax! The course the professionals race on is shorter than what we age groupers use. It must be! The swim is the same, the ride is at least 1/3 shorter, and the run is halved. I would guess it measures around 21.2 km, or 13.1 miles. All of us age-groupers could easily keep up with the likes of Mark Allen or Paula Newby-Fraser, if only we could complete on a level playing field.      Now I know you are all convinced by my argument, but you are probably wondering why? Let me explain: would you all spend $3,000 on a bike, $150 on shoes, and thousands on miscellaneous expenses if you knew you didn’t need them? Of course not. Let’s face it, the professionals need to convince us that this equipment is the key to success, what better way to do this than by beating our times by 2 – 4 hours. It is simple hero worship, and we are the victims. If you need any more proof, check out the IMC race booklet, page 21. Yes, at 2:00 there is a meeting only for professional triathletes. No age-groupers allowed. I wonder what they will be talking about… That alternate route around Richter Pass, the run turn around at Skaha Estates… The devious devils.      Incidentally, if you e-mail me or posting a follow-up along the lines of "I did Hawaii in 9:45 and didn’t use the professional course", or "My wife/husband/partner/friend/sibling/Maytag repairman did the course in 9:30",  I’ll know you’re one of them, you’ll be on my list. Yours in Anticipating a cement wetsuit from "The Man" David Barclay IMC 1997 Triathlon: "Swim, Bike, Crawl"

– Failure Is Not The Inability To Succeed;         Rather, The Unwillingness To Put Forth The Effort.                 Just Tri iT!

Response:

     There is absolutely no way that someone can run that fast at the end of a marathon. I just isn’t humanly possible. I am a skinny guy, I should be able to run fast, and by God I can! These so called "athletes" aren’t athletes at all, they are simply con artists and we are the victims, and I have just proved it! The conclusion:

   I have to agree with him, but my skepticism is towards the bike. There’s no way someone can stay upright on one of those things, never mind for hours on end. First time I tried to ride a bike I kept falling over. I agree, it’s all a hoax. Rob

Response:

It’s true. Every word of it. However, I have figured out how it is done. They don’t cut the course. They don’t take a lift from a passing vehicle. They don’t shorten the course for the pros either. The answer…… Cloning! That’s the ONLY way you can explain seeing Mark Allen at the beginning of the bike …. then the middle (a mere 15-20 minutes later by my calculation on video tape) …. then the end. And the run! Well …. you don’t think a "cloned" Allen isn’t jumping out of the bushes every other mile?! There’s your answer. (finally, a "fun" thread) Dennis McMinn

Response:

Oh, where am I? I’m sorry, is this the joke newsgroup? I’m looking for a group of whiners, do you know where they are at? Sorry to bother you guys, continue with your laughter. I’ll see you later "Iron" Pete Priolo Sub 10 hour IMC’97 —Countdown: 23 days until D-Day!!!

Response:

Hey Pete, Don’t worry …. this laughter can’t last that long …. somebody is bound to write something to get us going on a serious nature again! Until then, I’ll  go back to driving my car in the aero position! Good luck at IMC! Dennis

Response:

Response to David’s message: BRAVO!  I loved it.  Enough to bring me out of lurker status to send a comment in.  This newgroup is very serious, a little more fun and others might get involved.  I have been doing triathlons for 4 years now, and one of the reasons I started in the sport was because I thought the participants were fun, and relaxed.  Did anyone read the article in "Winning" magazine for the summer?  (Forgive, I probably missed the harsh postings on the article.)  It was the interview with Bob Roll and he makes some biting and cruel generalizations about triathletes.  At first I felt a little snubbed by his comments, but then I started realizing he may have some good points.  Really, I think we are a fun bunch.  But when someone does try to have a little fun, they kind of get jumped on.  Press on David’s of the tri world!  Your humor and time are appreciated by some!!! Avid lurker,   Gina

Response:

Remember when they said a man had walked on the moon??? Same deal. Hollywood. We had the Russians to help us see through that fraud, and we have David to steer us clear of this one. Scott

Response:

Well, since the beans are thoroughly spilled, I might as well admit it…. I was Marcus Allen’s "stunt double" during his reign of terror at Kona.  Yep, I did the bike leg for him.  Obviously, he didn’t do the swim, but just hung out under the dock with a scuba tank.  Watch the films closely – you’ll see "Marcus" swimming into the beach, and then disappear under water for a couple seconds, and resurface looking fresh as a daisy. His swimming double then just hung out breathing the rest of the scuba tank, used a waterproof pen to add a couple digits to his race number, then swam to the shore and DNF’d. He’d run to the T1 tent and begin to change, and as soon as the camera was off him, I’d jump in and take over from there. Luckily, I look enough like him that no one could tell the difference.  Heck, since my first and middle name are "Mark Alan", I didn’t even miss beat if someone called me "by name". And yeah, he did his own running.  But how do you think he did those times, anyway? Now, I’ve grown a beard and gotten out of shape, just so no one would recognize me as the great cyclist that I am.  Now that the truth is out, maybe I’ll shave (everything) and see if Dave Scott needs a stand in…..   Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.cynetfl.com/habanero/ Home of the $675 ti frame and demented fantasy

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                        Ironman Is a Hoax      So, 20 some days away from Ironman Canada, I am forced to conclude that Ironman triathlons are a complete and utter hoax. Ironman Hawaii: never happened. 7:50 at Ironman Germany: not a chance. 8:04 at Ironman Canada: a complete lie. Now before you all send me hate mail, malicious flames, and personal attacks, here me out, I too was ignorant.      I went for a 5 km. run last week. For a potential ironman that isn’t much, but I was recovering from road-rash and it was a "do my legs still work with all these scabs" type run. I planned to take it easy, but after 200 m. I realized two important things: my legs still worked, and I had a lot of energy left over from my recovery week. The net result was me running like a bat out of hell and setting a personal best of 19:41. What does this have to do with Ironman hoaxes? Allow me to continue.      I ran hard. In fact, I ran really hard! The weirdos in the car who followed me for a kilometre laughing recognized that I was running fast. The poor guy in nearly ran over while he was walking his dog must has concluded I was flying. The old couple I barrelled by nearly had heart-attacks. I was fast! I felt ill, wasted, exhausted but triumphant. I set a personal best, but more to the point I can to my stunning Ironman realization. The facts:      I ran 5 km. in 19:41, my pace being 3:56 minutes a kilometre. Now let us pretend I am a professional hoaxer, I mean triathlete. I would complete the marathon portion in around 2:45 hours, probably lower. That would put my pace at 3:55 minutes a kilometre. In other words, if I was a professional triathlete, I would be going faster during the marathon, after 3.8 km. swimming and 180 km. cycling, than I went during my 5 km. training run after a weeks rest. I find this completely unacceptable.      There is absolutely no way that someone can run that fast at the end of a marathon. I just isn’t humanly possible. I am a skinny guy, I should be able to run fast, and by God I can! These so called "athletes" aren’t athletes at all, they are simply con artists and we are the victims, and I have just proved it! The conclusion:      Ironman is a hoax! The course the professionals race on is shorter than what we age groupers use. It must be! The swim is the same, the ride is at least 1/3 shorter, and the run is halved. I would guess it measures around 21.2 km, or 13.1 miles. All of us age-groupers could easily keep up with the likes of Mark Allen or Paula Newby-Fraser, if only we could complete on a level playing field.      Now I know you are all convinced by my argument, but you are probably wondering why? Let me explain: would you all spend $3,000 on a bike, $150 on shoes, and thousands on miscellaneous expenses if you knew you didn’t need them? Of course not. Let’s face it, the professionals need to convince us that this equipment is the key to success, what better way to do this than by beating our times by 2 – 4 hours. It is simple hero worship, and we are the victims. If you need any more proof, check out the IMC race booklet, page 21. Yes, at 2:00 there is a meeting only for professional triathletes. No age-groupers allowed. I wonder what they will be talking about… That alternate route around Richter Pass, the run turn around at Skaha Estates… The devious devils.      Incidentally, if you e-mail me or posting a follow-up along the lines of "I did Hawaii in 9:45 and didn’t use the professional course", or "My wife/husband/partner/friend/sibling/Maytag repairman did the course in 9:30",  I’ll know you’re one of them, you’ll be on my list. Yours in Anticipating a cement wetsuit from "The Man" David Barclay IMC 1997 Triathlon: "Swim, Bike, Crawl"

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Hey Guys, Don’t you know parody and sarcasm when you see it? Personally, I thought it was funny as hell, especially the parody of conspiracy theorists in the discussion of the pro-only meetings at IM races. I think the complainer is part of the conspiracy also, and is trying to deflect accusations by making it sound rediculous. After all, I destroy myself to run a 22-minute 5K, so he must also be cheating. The guys that pass me so effortlessly on the run, especially those that I dusted on the bike, must be operating in a parallel (and faster) universe without a license. Please, guys, the tongue planted firmly in cheek really should be obvious. If it isn’t, assume that it is, and respond in kind. Then, if the guy really was serious (and a serious lunatic), he’ll still get the point. Too much serious bitching going on around here: everybody’s on edge. Must be the heat and humidity this time of year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeez, I really hope this original post was a joke.  At any rate, just because you run a 19:41 5K after resting doesn’t mean that someone else can’t run faster.  I remember reading somewhere or another that Mark Allen (one of the few with 2:45 im marathons) ran a 5K in 14:50 something.  Also of note odds are you won’t run a 2:45 marathon, even fully rested. Anyhow, keep training and maybe one day you will and then you’ll realize that there’s no hoax involved. Sorry for actual response if you were joking, Paul Drafting Sucks.  Keep tri-ing!

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Jeez, I really hope this original post was a joke.  At any rate, just because you run a 19:41 5K after resting doesn’t mean that someone else can’t run faster.  I remember reading somewhere or another that Mark Allen (one of the few with 2:45 im marathons) ran a 5K in 14:50 something.  Also of note odds are you won’t run a 2:45 marathon, even fully rested. Anyhow, keep training and maybe one day you will and then you’ll realize that there’s no hoax involved. Sorry for actual response if you were joking, Paul Drafting Sucks.  Keep tri-ing!

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                        Ironman Is a Hoax      I went for a 5 km. run last week. For a potential ironman that isn’t much, but I was recovering from road-rash and it was a "do my legs still work with all these scabs" type run. I planned to take it easy, but after 200 m. I realized two important things: my legs still worked, and I had a lot of energy left over from my recovery week. The net result was me running like a bat out of hell and setting a personal best of 19:41. What does this have to do with Ironman hoaxes? Allow me to continue.

    I ran 5 km. in 19:41, my pace being 3:56 minutes a kilometre. Now let us pretend I am a professional hoaxer, I mean triathlete. I would complete the marathon portion in around 2:45 hours, probably lower. That would put my pace at 3:55 minutes a kilometre. In other words, if I was a professional triathlete, I would be going faster during the marathon, after 3.8 km. swimming and 180 km. cycling, than I went during my 5 km. training run after a weeks rest. I find this completely unacceptable.

        If you are running a 5K in 19:41 then you are SLOW!!!! Obviously you are very jealous because you have not been training hard enough. These people who you say are hoax’s (PNF or Mark allen) have trained hard for YEARS!!!         Imagine someone who is just starting out running who’s PR for the 5K is 26 minutes. They would say that YOU are a hoax. How could someone run that fast? Obviously the course was shorter than 5K. How insulted you would be. You have trained hard to get that fast.         Perhaps you should train harder and longer and worry about your own training and performance and not that of others.         By the way, I train hard and long and your PR’s are my slow training days. Mabey someday you will improve and be good. Tri-Freak –                                      _                                       –    o        ’             –  __o       –    </_      `     ‘         –    <         – __/          /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft, they hammer"                                   2 Timothy 4:7

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Question:

Hey folks… Shopping for the ultimate cycle computer. What matters? 1. must have cadence 2. must be economical I have used the Vetta C-20 and been perfectly happy with it. I can pick one up for about $40 Canadian.  Any advice is appreciated. Ken

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[This followup was posted to rec.sport.triathlon and a copy was sent to the cited author.] Hey folks… Shopping for the ultimate cycle computer. What matters? 1. must have cadence 2. must be economical

I have used the Cateye Australe, that I like best overall. And the Sigmasport BC-1100 with cadence that I rather like better, but it uses rubber bands to attach the computer and the sensors.  the display is better, but the sensors stink. I just recently heard that I could rig the 1100 with Australe sensors (I guess by rewiring…) but I am skeptical and concerned about its working properly. Rob — Ironman Canada ???? Rob Blomquist aka TriDog Seattle, WA http://www.accessone.com/~robb

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pardon my ignorance, but I’ve never heard of Mark Bates, the guy who beat Spencer at memphis in May. Anybody out in RST land got any scoopage on this guy? Chaz, Chaz! Look him up in your Triathlon Sourcebook! He’s there – page 52 – and I quote: "Mark Bates, Canada "1996: 5th, Canadian duathlon champs, 1st, Kingston; 2nd, Canadian triathlon champs; 9th, Schu’s; 40th, ITU World Triathlon Champs; 7th, ITU World Long-Distance Champs; 7th, ITU-Sydney; 18th, ITU-Noosa. "1995: 2nd, Pan Am Games; 7th, ITU-Derry; 7th, ITU-Drummondville; 7th, Chicago; 8th, ITU World Duathlon Champs; 15th, ITU World Triathlon Champs." Triathlon Sourcebook: 1997

Katherine – Those finishes are high, but has he gone up against Spence before? He beat him by a minute and a half…which is a friggin’ lifetime for the pros at international distance…I’m impressed. Chaz

Response:

Pardon my ignorance, but I’ve never heard of Mark Bates, the guy who beat Spencer at memphis in May. Anybody out in RST land got any scoopage on this guy? Chaz

Well, he’s Canadian. He’s won the Canadian Championship a few times, I believe. He has done quite well in the World Championships over the years – finishing in the top ten on more than one occassion. I would say that his strength is the run, where he can be quite tough. He and Andrew MacMartin have been our best short course (male) performers over the last few years – Peter Reid is, of course, the best North American Ironman-length triathlete. Chris

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Mark Bates is one of the top triathletes in the world. He has qualified for and competed in everyone of the ITU World Championships and has the best finishing record of any athlete in this highly competitive event. He has twice been the Canadian Triathlon Champion and has won many races in Canada and placed well in numerous international races for the past 7 years. Bates lives and trains in North Vancouver, B.C. Coming to triathlon from a swimming back ground, in a few short years, Bates turned himself into a formidable runner. He can now swim cycle and run with the best in the world – even Spencer Smith  apprently. Steve Fleck

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Pardon my ignorance, but I’ve never heard of Mark Bates, the guy who beat Spencer at memphis in May. Anybody out in RST land got any scoopage on this guy? Chaz

Response:

Pardon my ignorance, but I’ve never heard of Mark Bates, the guy who beat Spencer at memphis in May. Anybody out in RST land got any scoopage on this guy? Chaz

He’s been around for more than a few years. I think he has won the canadian nationals at leas t three times.  He has also placed in the top 5 in several pro races in north america.  He has also placed top 15 at ITU worlds but i can’t remember the year.  He is a very good all round triathlete with no real weekness and he’s a great guy as well. — Derek Theriault Equipe de triathlon Universite Laval SAS 2254, PEPS Universite Laval Ste-Foy, PQ, Canada G1K 7P4 Fax 418-656-5749 Tel 418-845-3793

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: Pardon my ignorance, but I’ve never heard of Mark Bates, the guy who beat : Spencer at memphis in May. Anybody out in RST land got any scoopage on this : guy? : Chaz Mark has been one of the top international athletes and top ten world championship finisher for many years.  He also has one of the best Triathlon Training videos out there. -Charlie

Response:

Pardon my ignorance, but I’ve never heard of Mark Bates, the guy who beat Spencer at memphis in May. Anybody out in RST land got any scoopage on this guy?

Chaz, Chaz! Look him up in your Triathlon Sourcebook! He’s there – page 52 – and I quote: "Mark Bates, Canada "1996: 5th, Canadian duathlon champs, 1st, Kingston; 2nd, Canadian triathlon champs; 9th, Schu’s; 40th, ITU World Triathlon Champs; 7th, ITU World Long-Distance Champs; 7th, ITU-Sydney; 18th, ITU-Noosa. "1995: 2nd, Pan Am Games; 7th, ITU-Derry; 7th, ITU-Drummondville; 7th, Chicago; 8th, ITU World Duathlon Champs; 15th, ITU World Triathlon Champs." Triathlon Sourcebook: 1997

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Question:

I fell down my cellar steps and fractured my ankle!  We have been accused of seeking more stitching time! (Note, we did not hurt a wrist or elbow <g).               Sue

So, what’s the trick?  Can I do this too?  My luck is so good, I’d break both arms and all my fingers. The other night a good friend of mine called me from Buffalo, NY and told me that she has a stress fracture in her foot.  And – she has to stay off it for 4-6 weeks.  Why my friend, Denise?  She DOESN’T stitch.  It’s not fair.  I green with envy. Barb Bandel

Response:

: Reading Carala’s posting about her ankle (hope you feel better soon : Carala!) : I am beginning to wonder if we stitchers have a thing for ankle injuries! : steps of our stitchery shop.  The shop owner said, "Did Betsy tell you : what : she did?!" Well, so Betsy didn’t feel alone, three weeks later, I fell : down my : cellar steps and fractured my ankle!  We have been accused of seeking more : stitching time! (Note, we did not hurt a wrist or elbow <g). :                Sue Oh dear.. add me into this one. I tore ligaments in my ankle in feb and now that I want to stitch more, it’s coming back to haunt me (that and landing wrong on a step and wrenchig it again Really, I’m not avoiding evening walks and bike rides to stitch.. no of course not. Heather —      Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer        but wish we didn’t.                           – Erica Jong  GS/T d- s/+ a– C++ UL P+ L++ !E W++ N++ K  w– O? !M V PS+ !PE Y     PGP- t+ 5 X+ R++ !tv b++ DI++ !D G+ e++(*) h-(+) r+++ x?              Voted alt.geek Babe of the Year – 1994

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So, what’s the trick?  Can I do this too?  My luck is so good, I’d break both arms and all my fingers. The other night a good friend of mine called me from Buffalo, NY and told me that she has a stress fracture in her foot.  And – she has to stay off it for 4-6 weeks.  Why my friend, Denise?  She DOESN’T stitch.  It’s not fair.  I green with envy. Barb Bandel

Careful what you wish for!      ** Anne

Response:

Well with everyone comparing notes on this "epidemic" <g, we can elect one of the US gymnasts to the group.  Poor Kerri Strug tore a ligament in her ankle doing her last piece of equipment, the vault.  Bela Karoli had to carry her to the podium when the team went up to receive their gold medal.  It hurt just to watch her!  Kerri, welcome to the club.  You don’t do cross stitch do you?             Sue                         /                       /              (  (     /  )       (  (   (     A    )    ( ( ( (  ( (       0    ( (   (  (       _         (   (     (      /  ___ /

Response:

Reading Carala’s posting about her ankle (hope you feel better soon Carala!) I am beginning to wonder if we stitchers have a thing for ankle injuries! steps of our stitchery shop.  The shop owner said, "Did Betsy tell you what she did?!" Well, so Betsy didn’t feel alone, three weeks later, I fell down my cellar steps and fractured my ankle!  We have been accused of seeking more stitching time! (Note, we did not hurt a wrist or elbow <g).                Sue                         /                       /              (  (     /  )       (  (   (     A    )    ( ( ( (  ( (       0    ( (   (  (       _         (   (     (      /  ___ /

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Carala "My idea of a triathalon is a donut, a pizza and a hot fudge sundae."

My idea of the four food groups is chocolate, caffeine, fat, and sugar. Course, now that they have that food pyramid thingy, I have to figure out a new nutrition guide. Could the cat be feeling guilty??  Naaaah. Lisa

Response:

        I had commented in a recent posting that I was able to get more projects completed because of an injury I received when I tripped over my cat.  (He’s large—I’m clumsy ! ! )  I received quite a few well wishes from people and thought I would take the chance to let you know that I just got home from the hospital where I had orthoscopic surgery done on an outpatient basis.   The surgeon removed one fragments and reattached a couple of ligaments that were completely torn away.         Hopefully, I should be up and around in just a couple of more weeks. One consolation that I do have is that the cat is terrifed of the devise they have on my leg and seems to be totally avoiding getting near me.         Oh, well, back to the stitching.   I’m  working on a family tree for my son—He has eight children and I only have three more names to add!!! Carala "My idea of a triathalon is a donut, a pizza and a hot fudge sundae."

Response:

Question:

I am quite new to this internet scene.  I just found this today.  I am a triathlete,too, and I am extremely excited to find some other people to talk tri with besides my poor, bored, husband.   Anyone out there from the Indiana area??????            

Florida Triathlete that you can talk to. What races have you enterd this year and how did you do? I like sprint Tri’s myself

Response:

I had a TREK 2100 that cracked just below the seat post just 3 days before a race that I had entered. I went to my local trek dealer who contacted his trek sales rep. The sales rep responded quickly and had a new frame shipped to my dealer within 2days.  And upgraded my frame to a 5500 because they did not have a 2100 in stock with the colors I liked. I have no complaints about trek

Response:

invariably the mail gets bounced back to me, saying it cannot be delivered : will actually work?  

Yes!  For some reason my e-mail address on my posts appears as the one you have you mail to, but my REAL e-mail address is:             ^^^^^^ Lucy

Response:

Hey, what do I need to do to take part in all this??  I’ve been tri-ing for 4 years now and not ONCE have I been invited to run my hands all over a taut, tempting tri-body!  Geez, after all, that’s what I got into this silly sport for in the first place; you didn’t think I was doing it for my HEALTH, did you?? *sigh* Tri-Baby

Tri-Baby: You’re in the wrong place at these triathlons.  Now think of not only rubbing your hands over a taut, tempting tri-body just for a moment, but 10 minutes at a time for about 2 hours.  That’s about 12 bodies and… using a scented lubricant.  This activity goes on at at least half of the triathlons I’ve participated in.  Yes these are folks, men and women, disguised in (usually) white collared tennis shirts sporting the name of some local sports therapist shop.  All very official of course.  These are our friendly, much loved and respected "Massage Therapists".  Noone thinks twice about this raucous activity, yet these few, skilled experts are the real beneficiaries of hands-on training! Tucker Falls Church, VA

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I am quite new to this internet scene.  I just found this today.  

…I’m surprized no one posted a couple fun web sites for you to vist! try these: http://w3.one.net/~triweb/triweb.html http://www.voicenet.com/~mudboy I’m sure there are others, but these are great sites and have links all over the web… Dan Emerging Technology Services    - innovative mechanical product development    - software application development/management

Response:

Michelle,  Hey me again. Some questions for you on training.  How much training do you put in for a sprint ,olympic  and half ironman. I ask these questions just to see if  I am doing too much or too little. Right now my average  for a sprint which will be the next 3 races is about  15-20 week running, 3 miles swimming and 100 miles biking.  In early july I will increase these distances mostly  in the run and bike. Last year attempting Muncie for the  first time I got alot of 50 milers in with 5-8 mile run  but did not eat enough on bike at Muncie and paid dearly  on the (walk) run portion. Let me know on some of those  training secrets. Oh right now I will know by next wed  if I will do Shelbyville. I feel ready but I have my little  boys baptism sat night so it could be a long day sunday.  Se ya.  Mark

Response:

** If it wasn’t for the stud muffins in skimpy bathing suits **

i am appalled at the sexist nature of this comment!!  do these women thinks that we train hard just so they can come out and ogle us in our speedos, run their hands over our bodies and fondle our tight manly buttocks, and….ummm…hey that doesnt sound too bad…ok, never mind

Response:

this is a great forum for learning about triathlon, plus to keep abreast of the latest, hottest, current trends, news, etc.  As a side I have meet a number of really nice people that I occassionally meet up with at races, etc. I have also meet several cyber-pals that I exchange e-mail with in a regular basis.  It is really neat to be able to exchange ideas and information with people who share common interests. Lucy from Florida

Lucy– I have frequently tried to reply to posts or e-mails you’ve sent, and invariably the mail gets bounced back to me, saying it cannot be delivered will actually work?  It’s been bugging me for some time, because you’ve e-mailed me a couple of times, and I’m sure you probably had the impression that I was just a snot who never answers her e-mail!  Not true, not true! Let me know how to get around this problem! Tricia Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

: Lucy from Florida : Lucy– : I have frequently tried to reply to posts or e-mails you’ve sent, and : invariably the mail gets bounced back to me, saying it cannot be delivered : will actually work?  It’s been bugging me for some time, because you’ve : e-mailed me a couple of times, and I’m sure you probably had the : impression that I was just a snot who never answers her e-mail!  Not true, : not true! : Let me know how to get around this problem! : Tricia : Tri-Baby I’ve had the same problem, Lucy.  I sent you a note after Gulf Coast but it was kicked back. -Charlie

Response:

** If it wasn’t for the stud muffins in skimpy bathing suits ** i am appalled at the sexist nature of this comment!!  do these women thinks that we train hard just so they can come out and ogle us in our speedos, run their hands over our bodies and fondle our tight manly buttocks, and….ummm…hey that doesnt sound too bad…ok, never mind

Hey, what do I need to do to take part in all this??  I’ve been tri-ing for 4 years now and not ONCE have I been invited to run my hands all over a taut, tempting tri-body!  Geez, after all, that’s what I got into this silly sport for in the first place; you didn’t think I was doing it for my HEALTH, did you?? *sigh* Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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Michelle,  Hello from a NE Indiana tri-nut. My wife kinda gets bored   also with my obsession with this sport but is a good   supporter of my quest. Being a previous smoker for about   16 years I guess she feels this is a better lifestyle   for me and herself. Just wish I did this years ago.   Hey might see ya at some local Indiana Tri’s this summer.   Next week Shelbyville, then Warsaw, Shelbyville, Cameron   Springs then on to Muncie for the Worlds. Keep hammerin   and drop a line.   Mark   "If God invented marathons to keep people from doing     anything more stupid, triathlons must have taken     him completely by surprise"  

Response:

-snip- Hey, what do I need to do to take part in all this??  I’ve been tri-ing for 4 years now and not ONCE have I been invited to run my hands all over a taut, tempting tri-body!  Geez, after all, that’s what I got into this silly sport for in the first place; you didn’t think I was doing it for my HEALTH, did you?? *sigh* Tri-Baby

I think that we need to combine two threads here- the "Number of Showers in a Day" thread, and this "Fondling Male Triathletes" thread.  The new thread should be titled, "Number of Cold Showers Needed after Reading rst!"  Of late, I’ve been needing at least two. Cameron

Response:

: : ** If it wasn’t for the stud : muffins in skimpy bathing suits ** : : i am appalled at the sexist nature of this comment!!  do these women : thinks that we train hard just so they can come out and ogle us in our : speedos, run their hands over our bodies and fondle our tight manly : buttocks, and….ummm…hey that doesnt sound too bad…ok, never mind : : Hey, what do I need to do to take part in all this??  I’ve been tri-ing : for 4 years now and not ONCE have I been invited to run my hands all over : a taut, tempting tri-body!  Geez, after all, that’s what I got into this : silly sport for in the first place; you didn’t think I was doing it for my : HEALTH, did you?? : : *sigh* : : Tri-Baby, At Ironman (Hawaii), they have volunteers to put sunscreen on everyone who wants it in the swim-bike transition area.  Imagine getting your hands on the bare legs of hundreds of the world’s top male triathletes…. Just don’t try to convince too many other race directors that their races also need this service.  I’m not sure RST would be the appropriate forum to read your descriptive reports from those races.   :-}                                         — John — John Walker        Jackson & Tull Chartered Engineers, Seabrook, Maryland WWW URL:   http://xenon.stanford.edu/~walker  

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** If it wasn’t for the stud muffins in skimpy bathing suits ** i am appalled at the sexist nature of this comment!!  do these women thinks that we train hard just so they can come out and ogle us in our speedos, run their hands over our bodies and fondle our tight manly buttocks, and….ummm…hey that doesnt sound too bad…ok, never mind

TriSpouse is like men…. a sexist pig! Honestly though, if given the choice of sitting at home onthe patio watching clouds go by or sitting on the beach watching attractive members of the opposite sex trot by, often scantilly clad, THEN watch the clouds drift by, what would you do? Sit at home? Yeah right. My training partner is TriFiend, an occassional poster here on RST. He is quite a bit faster than me and is quite the bronzed stud muffin. How he remains single I’ll never know. Anyway, when we train together at a local race site, TriSpouse sunbakes until he gets ready for the ride and then she’s up in a flash to see him leave. She waxes poetic about his butt as he rides away, hunched over the aero bars. Needless to say she doesn’t stay standing long enough to watch ME leave. She’s back on her beach towel with a book in her face. Her comments about wanting to help him out of his wetsuit are a constant source of amusement to all. She once actually tried to help but her hands never touched the wetsuit. Rather, she merely rubbed her hands all over him, much to his embarrassment. TriDork remember, women can be sexist pigs too.

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I am quite new to this internet scene.  I just found this today.  I am a triathlete,too, and I am extremely excited to find some other people to talk tri with besides my poor, bored, husband.   Anyone out there from the Indiana area??????            

Michelle, Welcome to rst!  I thought that when I found rst that it would relieve my need to discuss triathlon incessantly with my apathetic non-triathlete spouse.  Unfortunately, it turned out that I had merely discovered a lots of new tri-info to discuss with him.  But, in all seriousness this is a great forum for learning about triathlon, plus to keep abreast of the latest, hottest, current trends, news, etc.  As a side I have meet a number of really nice people that I occassionally meet up with at races, etc. I have also meet several cyber-pals that I exchange e-mail with in a regular basis.  It is really neat to be able to exchange ideas and information with people who share common interests. Lucy from Florida

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I am quite new to this internet scene.  I just found this today.  I am a triathlete,too, and I am extremely excited to find some other people to talk tri with besides my poor, bored, husband.   Anyone out there from the Indiana area??????            

Welcome Aboard. You are now a member of the RST racing Team! I’m not from Indiana but am with you in spirit. As for your financially challenged, unenthusiastic spouse, I am with you all the way on that one. "TriSpouse" (my wife) has absolutely no interest in tris AT ALL. If it wasn’t for the stud muffins in skimpy bathing suits and the fact that she can tan at the beach while I race, I doubt she’d even know what a triathlon was. I tried at first to get her interested but to no avail. we now are content to let the other do as they want. TriDork

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I am quite new to this internet scene.  I just found this today.  I am a triathlete,too, and I am extremely excited to find some other people to talk tri with besides my poor, bored, husband.   Anyone out there from the Indiana area??????            

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