Question:

"to adjust for the lack of work that you would  experience by running afainst a headwind, it is advisable to add  a 1% to 2% grade to the [treadmill]; this also reduces landing shock  slightly…"     — Daniels’ running formula, by Jack Daniels.

Don’t believe him. I tried a bottle of that Jack Daniels Running Formula once and it didn’t make me any faster.  ;-) Armin Before you buy.

Response:

1% would be more like it, and even that might be a little much. The general rule of thumb is that a 1% increase in grade increases the O2 cost of running by 4%. Studies of runners on a treadmill placed in a wind tunnel have shown that wind resistance only adds around 2% to the energy cost of overground travel at typical running speeds. Note that even the fanciest treadmill likely requires calibration/adjustment so that e.g., 10.00 mph really equals 10.00 mph. The simplest way to do this is to mark a spot on the belt, and have somebody time a number of revolutions while you are running on the ‘mill at your typical speed. From there it may be possible to adjust the calibration, or you may simply have to remember the magnitude of the error. Aside from wind resistance (and possibly the differing rebound characteristic of the treadmill bed vs. outdoors), there is absolutely no difference between running on a treadmill and running outdoors. So, please, nobody jump into this thread with comments about how it is possible to "ride" the belt and thus reduce the energy cost…. Andy Coggan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This got me to thinking, when I run on a treadmill in a gym and it says, for example, that I’m running 6:00 miles, how accurate is this? In other words, does the lack of air resistance at this speed significantly affect the speed I can run? Sometimes I like the idea of just turning over faster with little resistance..  but if I were to simulate the treadmill run to an outdoor run, just turn up the incline 2-3 levels and your treadmill running speed should be at about the same as your out door speed. — Regards, Ardalan "Ardy" Sadeghi Performance Administration Corp "Building Bridges Between Todays Sales and Tomorrow’s Customers"     Work: 330-493-8271              Fax: 330-493-3264 Cellular: 330-284-6416             Home: Homeless for now! I seem to recall someone telling me that a 3% grade on the treadmill simulates wind resistance of running outside… any takers…. cheers Richard IMH99 IMUSA 00 Before you buy.

Response:

I seem to recall someone telling me that a 3% grade on the treadmill simulates wind resistance of running outside… any takers….

I never heard the recommended grade but i did hear that a 1 or 2 incline would be more closely simulating outdoor running.  Although a 1 or 2 on one treadmill could be vastly different than another’s. jeremy b

Response:

Don’t believe him. I tried a bottle of that Jack Daniels Running Formula once and it didn’t make me any faster.  ;-)

  I tried a bottle and didnt care if i ran or not Tri-man (G.C.T.) 94,95,96,97,98,99,00       Callaway Gardens Triathlon 93,94,95,96,97,98,00 Chattanooga Dam Triathlon  96,97,98,99,00,

Response:

I’m afraid I can’t report my results. I don’t remember them. But I must’ve run really hard, ’cause I had a killer dehydration headache the next day. Tom "These days, I can feel ONE BEER the next day, much less any real drinking" Henderson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t believe him. I tried a bottle of that Jack Daniels Running Formula once and it didn’t make me any faster.  ;-)   I tried a bottle and didnt care if i ran or not Tri-man (G.C.T.) 94,95,96,97,98,99,00       Callaway Gardens Triathlon 93,94,95,96,97,98,00 Chattanooga Dam Triathlon  96,97,98,99,00,

Response:

I found a 1% grade equivalent. When running on a treadmill doing 6 minute miles it is like having a 10mph tailwind. The other factor that can throw you off is the cooling effect. There is none on the treadmill and so ones HR can be higher compared to the same amount of effort when running outside. Phil holman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve noticed that I can bike *much* faster on my rollers (indoor trainer) than I possibly could outdoors because there’s no wind resistance, which is a major factor in cylcing. This got me to thinking, when I run on a treadmill in a gym and it says, for example, that I’m running 6:00 miles, how accurate is this? In other words, does the lack of air resistance at this speed significantly affect the speed I can run? -Harold

Before you buy.

Response:

"to adjust for the lack of work that you would  experience by running afainst a headwind, it is advisable to add  a 1% to 2% grade to the [treadmill]; this also reduces landing shock  slightly…"     — Daniels’ running formula, by Jack Daniels. The book also has a table that helps determine desired mile pace using treadmill grades and Miles per Hour. I highly recommend the book.  Lots of great racing and training info. Brian He has a chart to Determine deired Mile Pace. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve noticed that I can bike *much* faster on my rollers (indoor trainer) than I possibly could outdoors because there’s no wind resistance, which is a major factor in cylcing. This got me to thinking, when I run on a treadmill in a gym and it says, for example, that I’m running 6:00 miles, how accurate is this? In other words, does the lack of air resistance at this speed significantly affect the speed I can run? -Harold

Response:

I’ve noticed that I can bike *much* faster on my rollers (indoor trainer) than I possibly could outdoors because there’s no wind resistance, which is a major factor in cylcing. This got me to thinking, when I run on a treadmill in a gym and it says, for example, that I’m running 6:00 miles, how accurate is this? In other words, does the lack of air resistance at this speed significantly affect the speed I can run? -Harold

Response:

This got me to thinking, when I run on a treadmill in a gym and it says, for example, that I’m running 6:00 miles, how accurate is this? In other words, does the lack of air resistance at this speed significantly affect the speed I can run?

Not substantially.  Of course, we’re not talking about gale-force winds here, either. IIRC, the wind speed/resistance becomes a large factor on a bike when you hit somewhere around 15-18mph.  Since running is a much slower rate (you’re going 10mph), and I train at a rate significantly less than that, my guess is that the effect would be minimal.  However, as we all know running into a wind is "noticeable", I just can’t see it being that much of a factor, unless you’re continually running against a 10mph headwind or doing sprint intervals.

Response:

This got me to thinking, when I run on a treadmill in a gym and it says, for example, that I’m running 6:00 miles, how accurate is this? In other words, does the lack of air resistance at this speed significantly affect the speed I can run?

Sometimes I like the idea of just turning over faster with little resistance..  but if I were to simulate the treadmill run to an outdoor run, just turn up the incline 2-3 levels and your treadmill running speed should be at about the same as your out door speed. — Regards, Ardalan "Ardy" Sadeghi Performance Administration Corp "Building Bridges Between Todays Sales and Tomorrow’s Customers"     Work: 330-493-8271              Fax: 330-493-3264 Cellular: 330-284-6416             Home: Homeless for now!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This got me to thinking, when I run on a treadmill in a gym and it says, for example, that I’m running 6:00 miles, how accurate is this? In other words, does the lack of air resistance at this speed significantly affect the speed I can run? Sometimes I like the idea of just turning over faster with little resistance..  but if I were to simulate the treadmill run to an outdoor run, just turn up the incline 2-3 levels and your treadmill running speed should be at about the same as your out door speed. — Regards, Ardalan "Ardy" Sadeghi Performance Administration Corp "Building Bridges Between Todays Sales and Tomorrow’s Customers"     Work: 330-493-8271              Fax: 330-493-3264 Cellular: 330-284-6416             Home: Homeless for now!

I seem to recall someone telling me that a 3% grade on the treadmill simulates wind resistance of running outside… any takers…. cheers Richard IMH99 IMUSA 00 Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

I’d be interested to hear of people’s experience with Polar monitors and which model they prefer.  I’ve just purchased the Acurex II.  I bought that one because I felt that it would be helpful to have lap information stored for training for marathons.  I’m a bit frustrated by the fact (unless I am in error) that once you start the timers you can’t reset one (or even check the time) without reseting everything.

You can check the time on the ProTrainer, and possibly other models without resetting the timer. Simply  hold the face of the watch right up against the transmitter for a second or two. This will temporarily cause the watch to display the time of day,  then revert back to displaying lapsed time. RJ

Response:

You’re supposed to wet the electrodes before putting the belt on to make better electrical conact with your body.  I generally use saliva.   Sweat will build up as you run, serving the same purpose, after an intiial period with poor results.  Others have reported that it’s a good idea to wash the electrodes once in awhile with a mild soapy solution. I would have thought that petroleum jelly was non-conductive and would hurt performance, besides being messy and difficult to clean from the belt. You also might try changing the battery in the watch. I use the Polar Favor.  In addition to the rate monitor, it has high and low range settings so you get warned if you’re out of your target range. If I want timing, I use my Timex.  Normally, when training by HRM, who cares what the time is?  You might want to measure progress, but don’t get obsessed with every detail! -Ray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, wonder if any users have ever experienced the display repeatedly blinking on all modes and seeming to not respond to reseting.  Today as I began my long run, I couldn’t get the display to stop blinking. Finally, after a lap or so, it seemed to self correct.   Other than storing the times using computer software, I see no real benefit from having the expensive model.  If all you want to do is monitor your Heart Rate as you’re exercising, then I’d say go for the lowest price model you can find as they can all do that. I’ve not had a problem with the watch and transmitter other than at the beginning of a run, it doesn’t pick up the correct rate.  For example, I start out at about 130 or so beats per minute and it’s registering about 180 or so, I know it’s not right.  I’ve found that sometimes, it will take up to a few minutes before the transmitter starts to work properly.  It could be that the way it activates, it must have some moisture between it and your body which doesn’t happen immediately.  I’ve noticed that if I put some petroleum jelly on the electrodes, it will work every time at the beginning, even during swim sessions.

– Ray Charbonneau    |   MIT Library Systems       Somerville (MA) Road Runners: http://web.mit.edu/rcharbon/Public/www/srr.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’d be interested to hear of people’s experience with Polar monitors and which model they prefer.  I’ve just purchased the Acurex II.  I bought that one because I felt that it would be helpful to have lap information stored for training for marathons.  I’m a bit frustrated by the fact (unless I am in error) that once you start the timers you can’t reset one (or even check the time) without reseting everything. Wondered if I might be better off with the Edge and a cheap stop watch. BTW, wonder if any users have ever experienced the display repeatedly blinking on all modes and seeming to not respond to reseting.  Today as I began my long run, I couldn’t get the display to stop blinking. Finally, after a lap or so, it seemed to self correct.  Could anything I might have done in error make that happen or is it more likely that I have a watch with a problem? Thanks for any advice you can provide.

I’ve been using the Polar Sport Tester for about the last six months.  I’m very happy with this one.  I purchased it with the Analysis Software and interface and LOVE IT!  For me, it helps to log my training and after sprint distance events.  Other than storing the times using computer software, I see no real benefit from having the expensive model.  If all you want to do is monitor your Heart Rate as you’re exercising, then I’d say go for the lowest price model you can find as they can all do that. I’ve not had a problem with the watch and transmitter other than at the beginning of a run, it doesn’t pick up the correct rate.  For example, I start out at about 130 or so beats per minute and it’s registering about 180 or so, I know it’s not right.  I’ve found that sometimes, it will take up to a few minutes before the transmitter starts to work properly.  It could be that the way it activates, it must have some moisture between it and your body which doesn’t happen immediately.  I’ve noticed that if I put some petroleum jelly on the electrodes, it will work every time at the beginning, even during swim sessions. The watch I’ve got with the software is excellent for not only monitoring your Heart Rate for training sessions, but also for monitoring for long distance events such as a marathon or long triathlon.  The software is great in that you can store running, cycling and swimming data.  Great for triathlon training. Hope that helps! = Ironman – The one and only ! =

Response:

Many thanks to everyone for answering my questions and supplying lots of information. terry

Response:

I bought a Polar Coach some weeks ago and are happy with it. Good points is: Built-in audible computer interface. Just need a microphone to connect.

Spoke to customer service today about trading in my 13 yr old HRM. They offered me $100 for it toward a XTrainer Plus, nice deal. I mention this in case someone was looking to buy a new unit but did not know about the trade in offer. I also asked about the Coach, especially about its ability to upload files into a PC via sound card and got an earful. Seems that in late October Polar will be offering a new line of HRM some of which will upload to the PC via "infrared", no more interface via parallel or serial port connection, I wasn’t told if each model will have all the software/hardware as part of the package or if it will be a separate deal like the current PC interface is. I have no other info other than what they told me. They will have VO2, energy expenditure, cylcocompute capable, Altimeter and other functions beside the ones they offer now, target zones, stop watch, etc… If you’re looking to buy, might be worth waiting a while longer to see what they produce. I’m sure the older models will be available for a while if you prefer them to the new ones. If anyone has any news to add to this clue us in, sounds like a good deal up and coming.

Response:

Question:

Now Mike… I was just trying to clear a path through the geese and their, uhhh, goose trails, for the rest of you. Actually, when I’m wearing my wetsuit is the only time I can manage more than a couple of strokes of fly. — Stacy Hills Reston, VA

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : use fly in a race, unless you are seriously weird, but if you freestyle gets You’ve never seen Stacy Hills try to clear out all those around him at the swim start  :-)

Response:

I’ve traveled in swimming circles for a good bit of my life.  Another lament is how many swimmers are good at ONLY fly, back, & free.  Most of the rest seem to be ONLY competitive in breastroke.  It makes a great IMer even more rare than a good breastroker.

Count me in after a fashion.  I can do back, fly and free with some semblance of proficiency, but my breast stroke is absolutely dreadful. After watching me try over and over and over for about 20 minutes, once, a coach said (as others have pointed out), "some folks just can’t do the breast stroke." Jimmy "Just Can’t Do the Kick" Strebler

Response:

: use fly in a race, unless you are seriously weird, but if you freestyle gets You’ve never seen Stacy Hills try to clear out all those around him at the swim start  :-)

Response:

Ever watch a frog swim in a pond?  Sure looks like breaststroke to me, and some of those suckers can move! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s the freaky breaststrokers who do those successive standing long jumps. Real sharks don’t do that kick thing. Not even a real goldfish would be caught dead bobbing around like that. Besides, I can’t do that stroke to save my life, even though I practice it as much as I do normal strokes.

Response:

<snip i look at it this way… frestyle is like running, breaststroke is like walking, backstroke is like running backwards, and butterfly is like doing successive standing long jumps until you can’t lift your legs anymore  damn freaks

True enough, but doing butterfly in training does exceptional things to you fitness and strength and improves your freestyle out of sight.  You’d never use fly in a race, unless you are seriously weird, but if you freestyle gets stronger from doing it in training….. why not? Andy

Response:

Our swimming club coach has had the entire squad (all U18 swimmers) doing butterfly as an adjunct to their freestyle for 9 years that I’m aware of, because in his words: "the flexibility and strength required to do butterfly with good form, exceeds the ranges most swimmers require to do freestyle with good form".  My understanding of what he is trying to achieve here, is to get his swimmers to enhance their flexibility and strength to the point where correct form in their freestyle is not impeded by a lack of either. The key point is ‘correct form’.  There are a lot of swimmers who swim quickly but expend a lot more effort than necessary because of bad form. Our coaches theory is to keep our kids swimming as quickly or quicker, with less effort and for longer periods.  The flexibility, particularly in the shoulders, manifests itself in fewer injury problems. To me, it appears to be working.  My daughter keeps improving and has not experienced any difficulties with shoulder injuries.  He is a qualified swimming coach and I am not, so I am happy to allow him to use whatever methods he deems appropriate to get the best out of the squad. Cheers, Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – haven’t heard this before… in my 15 years of competitive swimming, there have been only two reasons for me to train butterfly: 1) to improve my butterfly (for IM) and 2) as punishment.  Is there something my coaches knew, but never told me??? i was first and foremost a distance freestyler and second a distance IMer… the pure distance freestylers almost never trained fly.  there was the occasional IM set for the entire team, but i can’t recall the distance swimmers ever training butterfly (and this was with upwards of 30 hrs/week in the pool).  is this something new in the past 5 yrs?  we usually concentrated on freestyle for speedwork, endurance work, and skill work (technique)… i’m still of the belief that the most effective use of training time for improving freestyle is freestyle.  please don’t get me wrong, i’m not trying to discredit or argue, i’d really be interested in knowing if this is an accepted practice for improving endurance freestyle… i am bored to death with my pool training, and would love to hear something new and exciting. True enough, but doing butterfly in training does exceptional things to you fitness and strength and improves your freestyle out of sight.  You’d never use fly in a race, unless you are seriously weird, but if you freestyle gets stronger from doing it in training….. why not? Andy

Response:

Nope. Butterfly rocks. Breaststroke sucks. Breaststrokers are born, not made. It requires abnormal ankles.

I agree with Ruth, having been around young swimmers for the last 5 years. Ask ant good breaststroker and they will be able to touch their left shoulder with their right toe. They do it all the time around the pool to gross people out. And if you think butterfly isn’t a distance event……Last year at the Swim Around Key West, Gail Rice, perennial favorite, was supporting her daughter Sarah. Just for the "fun" of it she swam the whole course the day before butterfly,, 12.5 MILES ! 5 hours 45 minutes…never broke stroke. Al Kormesser

Response:

Al, is this true??? Or are you kidding? "whole course the day before | butterfly,, 12.5 MILES ! 5 hours 45 minutes…never broke stroke" Phil

| | Nope. Butterfly rocks. Breaststroke sucks. | Breaststrokers are born, not made. It requires abnormal ankles. | | I agree with Ruth, having been around young swimmers for the last 5 years. Ask | ant good breaststroker and they will be able to touch their left shoulder with | their right toe. They do it all the time around the pool to gross people out. | And if you think butterfly isn’t a distance event……Last year at the Swim | Around Key West, Gail Rice, perennial favorite, was supporting her daughter | Sarah. Just for the "fun" of it she swam the whole course the day before | butterfly,, 12.5 MILES ! 5 hours 45 minutes…never broke stroke. | Al Kormesser

Response:

Nope. Butterfly rocks. Breaststroke sucks. Breaststrokers are born, not made. It requires abnormal ankles. I agree with Ruth, having been around young swimmers for the last 5 years. Ask ant good breaststroker and they will be able to touch their left shoulder with their right toe. They do it all the time around the pool to gross people out. And if you think butterfly isn’t a distance event……Last year at the Swim Around Key West, Gail Rice, perennial favorite, was supporting her daughter Sarah. Just for the "fun" of it she swam the whole course the day before butterfly,, 12.5 MILES ! 5 hours 45 minutes…never broke stroke. Al Kormesser

that is amazing… 1:35/100yds fly for nearly 6 hours?!  but how fast does she swim free??? butterfly IS a fast stroke, and there are a few who can do it efficiently… should triathletes train butterfly though? i’m not entirely sold on it… increasing flexibility is a worthy goal, but there are many ways to increase flexibility… do any college teams train their distance swimmers with fly??? i’d definitely be interested in the results(always looking for something new), and personally don’t trust any findings from age group teams… most age groupers improve regardless of the training regimen. would training fly help those us of that have plateaud (or even started to decline and pool time for most is oh so precious… mixing things up does help keep things interesting though.  btw… you don’t need to be a genetic freak to be good at breast stroke; i can barely get my right foot above my left hip, but i can still do repeat 100m breastroke on the 1:40… albeit not for 6 hours! cheers! -d

Response:

i look at it this way… frestyle is like running, breaststroke is like walking, backstroke is like running backwards, and butterfly is like doing successive standing long jumps until you can’t lift your legs anymore  damn freaks

It’s the freaky breaststrokers who do those successive standing long jumps. Real sharks don’t do that kick thing. Not even a real goldfish would be caught dead bobbing around like that. Besides, I can’t do that stroke to save my life, even though I practice it as much as I do normal strokes. Ruth Kazez

Response:

haven’t heard this before… in my 15 years of competitive swimming, there have been only two reasons for me to train butterfly: 1) to improve my butterfly (for IM) and 2) as punishment.  Is there something my coaches knew, but never told me??? i was first and foremost a distance freestyler and second a distance IMer… the pure distance freestylers almost never trained fly.  there was the occasional IM set for the entire team, but i can’t recall the distance swimmers ever training butterfly (and this was with upwards of 30 hrs/week in the pool).  is this something new in the past 5 yrs?  we usually concentrated on freestyle for speedwork, endurance work, and skill work (technique)… i’m still of the belief that the most effective use of training time for improving freestyle is freestyle.  please don’t get me wrong, i’m not trying to discredit or argue, i’d really be interested in knowing if this is an accepted practice for improving endurance freestyle… i am bored to death with my pool training, and would love to hear something new and exciting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – True enough, but doing butterfly in training does exceptional things to you fitness and strength and improves your freestyle out of sight.  You’d never use fly in a race, unless you are seriously weird, but if you freestyle gets stronger from doing it in training….. why not? Andy

Response:

The problem with breaststroke is the "braking" action that occurs during the pulling back of the legs.  Good breaststrokers can maintain a continual forward motion and therefore maintain momentum.  This is best emphasized by doing the breast stroke kicking drill. That is kicking breaststroke on your back. If your legs (knees) are coming out of the water that means they are braking your streamline and  momentum. Just look at the ceiling or the lane lines and if you are continuously stooping and starting this is the main problem. Also most people doing breaststroke use to much hands. I mean pulling back to far. The hands should stay in front of you. There are advanced breaststroke sprint techniques for pool swimmers that include over the water recovery of the arms but they are really of no use in extended swims. It has been said ( I don’t really know if its true but its a good excuse ) that either your a breaststroker or not.  I totally agree with posts here already that it is essential just to diversify you swim and use for times of trouble etc.  I am not a breaststroker and because of that with coaching I have come to recognize the common faults which others as well as myself make. I am only relaying what I have learned from my coach Stan, see this link for his bio… http://www.ancientmariners.org/coach.htm Good luck…

Response:

It has been said ( I don’t really know if its true but its a good excuse ) that either your a breaststroker or not.

I’ve traveled in swimming circles for a good bit of my life.  Another lament is how many swimmers are good at ONLY fly, back, & free.  Most of the rest seem to be ONLY competitive in breastroke.  It makes a great IMer even more rare than a good breastroker. Rsquared "who never ‘got’ the breastroke" Before you buy.

Response:

Damnit! That’s my Tri career finished. I have raced and trained at all distances for 5 years without being able to do the breast stroke only to read here that it’s akin to not being able to fix a flat on my bike, and who ever walks further than from the finish line than to the showers? ))) Phil

| The breast stroke is a must (IMHO) for any open water swimmer. You may have | been doing some hardass repets at that swim practice, but it can be done at a | nice easy pace that would allow for complete rest were it neccessary. I could | not imagine having to swim, let’s say, from a sinking boat three miles offshore | through chop and currents ONLY relying on freestyle. | Not being able to do the breaststroke (or sidestroke) as an alternative to | freestyle is like riding your bike without being able to change a flat, or | running without EVER having the option of walking. | | Ken

Response:

It’s gotta be you. I get bagged after a mere 200m of free, waterlogged after only 100 back, and I’m lucky if I can manage 25m of fly, huge splashes all the way, the most inefficient stroke devised yet, IMHO, but I can do breaststroke until the cows come home.  It doesn’t matter the distance, 750m, 1500m, whatever, I can maintain a decent pace for the whole leg, and have plenty of energy left for the rest of it. Thanx…PSB. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gentle readers – Last night my swim group did breast stroke lessons for the first time since I’ve been attending.  Now I thought the bs looked easy, and figured I was just shy on some technique that would be easy to pick up. An hour later I was completely knackered after doing maybe 150m of the damned thing; my knees hurt, my calves cramped, and my pecs ached.  And everyone was tired of describing it the 1,493 different ways they’d been trying to. Is there REALLY any reason to learn this torture?  Am I just a slow learner?  Did all my snickering jokes about "breast stroke" (heh heh) land me in some karma hell? Unrepentant – johnwalt

Response:

I can do breaststroke until the cows come home.  It doesn’t matter the distance, 750m, 1500m, whatever, I can maintain a decent pace

The first English channel crossings where with breaststroke. 55 degrees is very cold without a wetsuit.

Response:

Gentle readers –

my knees hurt, As I’ve grown older (& less flexible?) I’ve found breaststroke plays havoc with my cartlidges. Beware! Greg Banner

Response:

learner?  Did all my snickering jokes about "breast stroke" (heh heh) land me in some karma hell?

Heh, heh, heh, you said "breast!" heh, heh, heh.

Response:

don’t worry about it… you don’t NEED breastroke, if you NEED an alternative to freestyle, you’re not competing to win anyway; treading water will suffice (just don’t get run over . and i must correct you on one point… breastroke isn’t that bad… butterfly sucks. every swimmer has a weakest stroke… those without ankle and knee flexibility struggle with breastroke, those without good upper body strength suck at fly (that’s me).  luckily, in the IM, you get a dive with fly, and its the first stroke… playin’ catchup the rest of the way – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gentle readers – Last night my swim group did breast stroke lessons for the first time since I’ve been attending.  Now I thought the bs looked easy, and figured I was just shy on some technique that would be easy to pick up. An hour later I was completely knackered after doing maybe 150m of the damned thing; my knees hurt, my calves cramped, and my pecs ached.  And everyone was tired of describing it the 1,493 different ways they’d been trying to. Is there REALLY any reason to learn this torture?  Am I just a slow learner?  Did all my snickering jokes about "breast stroke" (heh heh) land me in some karma hell? Unrepentant – johnwalt

Response:

and i must correct you on one point… breastroke isn’t that bad… butterfly sucks.

Nope. Butterfly rocks. Breaststroke sucks. Breaststrokers are born, not made. It requires abnormal ankles. Ruth "they laugh when I get to lap 3" Kazez

Response:

and i must correct you on one point… breastroke isn’t that bad… butterfly sucks. Nope. Butterfly rocks. Breaststroke sucks. Breaststrokers are born, not made. It requires abnormal ankles. Ruth "they laugh when I get to lap 3" Kazez

come on now! we all know freestyle is, by far, the best stroke… especially considering this is a triathlon ng (note that VERY few people swim butterfly to take a break from freestyle during a tri) i look at it this way… frestyle is like running, breaststroke is like walking, backstroke is like running backwards, and butterfly is like doing successive standing long jumps until you can’t lift your legs anymore  damn freaks

Response:

The breast stroke is a must (IMHO) for any open water swimmer. You may have been doing some hardass repets at that swim practice, but it can be done at a nice easy pace that would allow for complete rest were it neccessary. I could not imagine having to swim, let’s say, from a sinking boat three miles offshore through chop and currents ONLY relying on freestyle. Not being able to do the breaststroke (or sidestroke) as an alternative to freestyle is like riding your bike without being able to change a flat, or running without EVER having the option of walking. Ken

The breastroke is a funny stroke. The modern breast stoke (wave and its variations) at race pace is absolutely brutal. But an old fashioned easy pace breastroke is, indeed, a way to get a little rest while still going forward. — Tom Morley                         |   http://www.math.gatech.edu/~morley |  Tao Te Ching, Chapter 28 ICQ: 24798603                      |    

Response:

Gentle readers – Last night my swim group did breast stroke lessons for the first time since I’ve been attending.  Now I thought the bs looked easy, and figured I was just shy on some technique that would be easy to pick up. An hour later I was completely knackered after doing maybe 150m of the damned thing; my knees hurt, my calves cramped, and my pecs ached.  And everyone was tired of describing it the 1,493 different ways they’d been trying to. Is there REALLY any reason to learn this torture?  Am I just a slow learner?  Did all my snickering jokes about "breast stroke" (heh heh) land me in some karma hell? Unrepentant – johnwalt

Response:

I grew up doing the breast stroke, so for me it is natural.  I find that in my racing (and even in training) when I get tired of freestyle, I always revert to the breast stroke.  For me, it is relaxing, allowing me to catch my breath and also take a good look around.  I also find that my breast stroke is fast enough to keep up with the slower freestyle swimmers, so I don’t lose too much. So, for me, breast stroke is like walking during the run… it may not be fast, but it allows me to finish. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gentle readers – Last night my swim group did breast stroke lessons for the first time since I’ve been attending.  Now I thought the bs looked easy, and figured I was just shy on some technique that would be easy to pick up. An hour later I was completely knackered after doing maybe 150m of the damned thing; my knees hurt, my calves cramped, and my pecs ached.  And everyone was tired of describing it the 1,493 different ways they’d been trying to. Is there REALLY any reason to learn this torture?  Am I just a slow learner?  Did all my snickering jokes about "breast stroke" (heh heh) land me in some karma hell? Unrepentant – johnwalt

Response:

The breast stroke is a must (IMHO) for any open water swimmer. You may have been doing some hardass repets at that swim practice, but it can be done at a nice easy pace that would allow for complete rest were it neccessary. I could not imagine having to swim, let’s say, from a sinking boat three miles offshore through chop and currents ONLY relying on freestyle. Not being able to do the breaststroke (or sidestroke) as an alternative to freestyle is like riding your bike without being able to change a flat, or running without EVER having the option of walking. Ken

Response:

Question:

Many thanks to all you current and ex-servicemen who have posted and mailed some excellent "jodies" in response to my query.  These are great! Can’t wait to head out on my long run this weekend armed to the teeth with this stuff! Cheers– Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

[bunch of great stuff] : If I die in a combat zone : Box me up and send me home : Pin my medals upon my chest : Tell my girl I did my best : Tell my mama not to cry : Marine Corps way is to do or die If I may bastardize: If I die in the tran-zi-shone put me in my bike box and send me home leave my number on my chest tell my wife and dog I did my best tell my mama not to cry Ironman way is to do or die Wade Blomgren

Response:

You know what I’m talking about—the rhythmic sing-song barked out by drill sergeants when putting troops through their running paces in training.  Well, I know only a couple of short phrases, but I frequently find them getting stuck in my head when I run and they really do help you maintain pace very well.   I’m wondering if anyone out there can share some more of these chants.

How many do you want?  After four years in the Marine Corps I’ve heard quite a few, some profane and some profound.  Here are some guidelines and a few chants (a.k.a. Jody Calls) to whet the whistle: Each verse is shouted by a platoon sargent and then repeated by the platoon.   Each chant should be started as the left foot strikes the ground (assuming the platoon is running in step), and timed so that the response will be repeated as the left foot strikes the ground.   —— C-130 rollin’ down the strip Recon daddy’s gonna take a little trip Stand up, buckle up, and shuffle thru the door Jump right out and shout ‘Marine Corps!’ And if my ‘chute don’t open wide I got another one by my side And if that ‘chute don’t blossom round I’ll be the first one to hit the ground A-hookin’ and jabbin’ Shootin’ and a-stabbin’ Singin’ lo, right, left A-lefty, righty lo —— At this point, most chants are followed by a few verses of a sing-song type of left-right-left to keep everyone in step. —— Up from a sub 60 feet below I hit the surface and I’m ready to go Sidestroke, backstroke and swim to the shore When I hit the beach I’m a-ready for war Runnin’ thru the jungle with my M-16 I’m a mean mother-f%#ker, I’m a US Marine ‘45 and Ka-Bar by my side These are the tools that make men die (Ka-Bar is a type of knife traditionally carried by Marines, it is pronounced kay-bar) If I die in a combat zone Box me up and send me home Pin my medals upon my chest Tell my girl I did my best Tell my mama not to cry Marine Corps way is to do or die I used to sit at home all day Lettin’ my life a-waste away Then one day a man in blue Said: "I got a job for you. "There’s travel, adventure, and loads of fun, "And we’ll even teach you how to shoot a gun. "Room and board and pay to boot, "And a brand new tailored buisness suit." I used to drive a bonneville Now all I do is run up a hill I used to drive a cadillac Now all I do is hump a pack joel falk Northwestern University, Evanston, IL.  USA

Response:

: You know what I’m talking about—the rhythmic sing-song barked out by : drill sergeants when putting troops through their running paces in : training.  Well, I know only a couple of short phrases, but I frequently : find them getting stuck in my head when I run and they really do help you : maintain pace very well.   : I’m wondering if anyone out there can share some more of these chants. : The only ones I know go like this: Here is one for you TRI Baby. we go marching through the grass <repeat Seargent likes to kick our ass. I know some others but they are pretty dirty. Here is a clean version: I don’t know what you’ve been told My Mtn Bike will never be sold. sound of one two bring it on down 3 4 — Patrick I can’t get no, Internetaction

Response:

That kind of reminds me of a story that has absolutely nothing to do with triathlon, but what the heck. A few years ago, a rather large group of people made up of my siblings, our wives and girlfriends, and assorted other friends and acquaintances and my Mom and Dad were walking through downtown Rochester from the hotel where my sister’s wedding reception was held to the hotel where we were staying.  We were all dressed fairly nicely and were several sheets to the wind.  My father (27 years in the Air Force), using the philosophy that muggers, etc. steer clear of a loud mob, had us doing military chants for the ten blocks or so.  That must have been quite a picture. I obviously don’t remember any of the chants.  But thanks, Tricia, for reminding me of that past adventure. — Steve Noone

Response:

You know what I’m talking about—the rhythmic sing-song barked out by drill sergeants when putting troops through their running paces in training.  Well, I know only a couple of short phrases, but I frequently find them getting stuck in my head when I run and they really do help you maintain pace very well.   I’m wondering if anyone out there can share some more of these chants. The only ones I know go like this: Various chants deleted… Geesh! And I thought I had it bad when I couldn’t get the "Ballad of

Jed Clampett" out of my head during long runs.  What’s next?  "YMCA" by the Village People?  Lord have mercy! Marty

Response:

Anybody know any others?  I’d really love to learn some good ones, I can use all the help I can get with my running rhythm, and these chants actually do seem to help. We used to call them "jodies," for no good reason that I could ever figure

Arrgh!!!! Another one of my training secrets has been discovered! Don’t remember too many of them, but somewhere I have a book of them (Help’s having been in a training unit). Here are some off the top of my head: (Repeat each line with feeling). Up the hill! Down the hill! Around the hill! Through the hill! (Parady of "I want to be an Airborne Ranger") I want to be an Chairborne ranger I don’t want a life of danger I want to work from 9 to 5 I want to keep myself alive I will look for the book and post more when I find it. Tom Roehr "The Javanator"

Response:

You know what I’m talking about—the rhythmic sing-song barked out by drill sergeants when putting troops through their running paces in training.  Well, I know only a couple of short phrases, but I frequently find them getting stuck in my head when I run and they really do help you maintain pace very well.   I’m wondering if anyone out there can share some more of these chants. The only ones I know go like this: Ain’t no sense in lookin’ down (Ain’t no sense in lookin’ down) Ain’t no discharge on the ground (Ain’t no discharge on the ground) Am I right or wrong? (You’re right!) Am I goin’ strong? (You’re right!) Sound off:  One, two Sound off:  Three, four Bring it on down:  One, two, three, four One, two—-three four! Ain’t no sense in lookin’ back (Ain’t no sense in lookin’ back) Gov’ment’s got your Cadillac (Gov’ment’s got your Cadillac) Am I right or wrong?  … etc. Left, left– Had a good job and I left. First they hired me Then they fired me Then, by golly, I left, left…. Anybody know any others?  I’d really love to learn some good ones, I can use all the help I can get with my running rhythm, and these chants actually do seem to help. TIA! Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

Tribaby, At Fort Benning, GA., at Airborne School, I went from a "leg" to a "jumper" singing this one: Airborne, Airborne, have you heard? We’re gonna jump from a big iron bird. Stand up, hook up, shuffle to the door, Jump right out and count to four! If my ‘chute don’t open wide, I’ve got another one by my side. If that one don’t open either, I’ll have a date with ol’ Saint Peter. Tell my wife I did my best, and bury me in the leaning rest! (Leaning Rest is the position at the top of a pushup.) These are great for long, slow distance runs for me since the cadence of the song is slow. If you sing it out loud, start each line on your left foot; if a veteran hears you, he/she will ask what service you were in. Stretch the song out by adding the following after each sentence, left foot only:                Hup, two, three, four Email if you want more. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know what I’m talking about—the rhythmic sing-song barked out by drill sergeants when putting troops through their running paces in training.  Well, I know only a couple of short phrases, but I frequently find them getting stuck in my head when I run and they really do help you maintain pace very well.   I’m wondering if anyone out there can share some more of these chants. The only ones I know go like this: Ain’t no sense in lookin’ down (Ain’t no sense in lookin’ down) Ain’t no discharge on the ground (Ain’t no discharge on the ground) Am I right or wrong? (You’re right!) Am I goin’ strong? (You’re right!) Sound off:  One, two Sound off:  Three, four Bring it on down:  One, two, three, four One, two—-three four! Ain’t no sense in lookin’ back (Ain’t no sense in lookin’ back) Gov’ment’s got your Cadillac (Gov’ment’s got your Cadillac) Am I right or wrong?  … etc. Left, left– Had a good job and I left. First they hired me Then they fired me Then, by golly, I left, left…. Anybody know any others?  I’d really love to learn some good ones, I can use all the help I can get with my running rhythm, and these chants actually do seem to help. TIA! Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

Tricia, If you’d like I can send you a cassette tape with many different chants on it. The tapes are readily available at most military installations                                      Steve Fredericks                                       Oceanside, CA

Response:

Anybody know any others?  I’d really love to learn some good ones, I can use all the help I can get with my running rhythm, and these chants actually do seem to help.

We used to call them "jodies," for no good reason that I could ever figure out.  Most of them were, shall we say, not suitable for posting in a family news group.  In fact, we were occasionally admonished that they weren’t even appropriate for the new, all volunteer, co-ed army.  But, you’re right, we need some — or maybe just one.  How about everyone contributing a verse?  Like…. We’re the fighting tri-geeks of R-S-T We can bike and we can pee I’m sure the news group can do better, but the idea is to come up with a verse and just tack it on.  We used used to try to do this in real time during long route marches, generally with mixed results.  But it was a heck of a lot of fun. The one clean jodie I remember goes something like…. C-130 rolling down the strip Airborne daddy on a one-way trip Stand up, hook up, shuffle to the door Jump right out and count to four If my ‘cute don’t open wide I’ve got another one right by my side If that ‘chute don’t open, too Look out lord I’m coming through If I die in that old drop zone Box me up and send me home Tell my girl I did my best Bury me in the leaning rest Put a bayonet in my hand I’ll hack my way to airborne land The Carmel Group "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Response:

Question:

I am planning on going to Leon’s Tri this July and was wondering if anyone out there has any information on this race.  Race course description?  What to expect?  How many participates?  Water temperature (wetsuits or no wetsuits)?  Any and all information would be greatly appreciated. Michelle

Response:

<I am planning on going to Leon’s Tri this July and was wondering if anyone out there has any information on this race.  Race course description?  What to expect?  How many participates?  Water temperature (wetsuits or no wetsuits)?  Any and all information would be greatly appreciated.< Having only done Leon’s twice (‘94 and ‘95), I may not be the world’s definitive source on the race, but here’s my read: You’re in for a treat.  Leon’s personal attention to detail and charismatic "appreciate!" are why the race is tops. The swim is in generally calm, warm water.  Wetsuits are always at the athlete’s disgression (but don’t foolishly overheat by wearing one in warm water as I did last year). Transitions are well laid out and flawlessly efficient.  I recommend sidewalk chalk to mark the pavement so finding your spot is easier. The bike course is *way* fast, as I’ve gone almost a full M.P.H. faster than ever before for a 40 K.   The only "hills" are highway overpasses.   One knock against the race is the "speedbumps" that border the overpass decks … they can nearly loosen your fillings if you’re not careful. Perhaps jumping ‘em or at least grabbing the aero bars tightly will suffice.   The run is pancake-flat and also very quick.  Aid stations are plentiful and are supplemented by lots of folks with  hose or spray stations in their front yards.   Enjoy the festival atmosphere (500 competitors?), the cordial company and the guaranteed good time, and go like hell for me too because I can’t make it this year! Best of luck! I TRI  

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know of any races taking place in San Francisco on Sat 13/Sun 14 July ? Prefer 5 mile/10K (nothing longer). thanks kate

The Schedule is a magazine which lists a lot of races throughout the world and especially California. Their home page can be found at: http://www.runningnetwork.com/members/cal_schedule/ There are not many races that weekend in SF, you might also look at the races in Palo Alto (approx. 30 min. drives from SF). Emiel

Response:

Dolphin South End Club usually has good SF races, their number is located under Running Clubs on: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/trilinks.html Also, look up the link to the CA Schedule, also in the running section. Regards, Lee Rudin San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

Response:

Does anyone know of any races taking place in San Francisco on Sat 13/Sun 14 July ? Prefer 5 mile/10K (nothing longer). thanks kate —  Kate Knill, Speech, Vision & Robotics Group,    Dept. of Engineering, Cambridge Univ.,  Trumpington St., Cambridge, UK.

Response:

Question:

Does anybody have long course results for age-groupers?

Response:

Go to the Triathlete Magazine site. They have live updates. I will have some images scanned in a couple of days. Regards, Lee Rudin SF Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

Response:

: Go to the Triathlete Magazine site. They have live updates. : I will have some images scanned in a couple of days. As of Moday morning, 9:00 am, the results page at the Triathlete url seems to be broken.  I can’t access ANY results, let alone Wildflower. My results url hotlists from last summer seem to be no longer valid, so at the moment, it does not appear that we have on-line race results. *   |       *   *     *                                                      * /|  *    *     *        Eric Roseme                                     *  /|   *     *       *    Hewlett-Packard, Networked Computer Division      *//|\     /   /    *                                                      ///|\ *      \                                                   |       *  // *                                                                         \                                                                            \                                                        

Response:

Question:

Response:

Dear Reader: You may have seen and/or taken part in my study that I have posted a couple of times on this newsgroup between November ‘95 & January ‘96.  I did some stats on the data, and I’d like to share with you the summary of the results. Apart from demographic data, 3 subjective measures were gathered: 1) commitment to activity (CM) 2) deprivation sensations during periods of involuntary abstinence         2 scales were used for this purpose: DP1 and DP2 3) trait anxiety (TA) A) GROUP COMPARISONS The study was posted simultaneously on a number of discussion groups. All people in all groups were equally COMMITTED to their activity, or in other words, respondents from the various discussion groups did not differ statistically.  Population norms, based on studies with runners, were either matched or exceeded by all the groups. TABULATED DATA (AVERAGES/STANDARD DEVIATIONS (SD) ROUNDED) (N=number of respondents; for DP1, DP2, & TA see above) """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" GROUP                   N       DP1     DP2     TA """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" AEROBIC + WEIGHTS       65      32/10   25/6    36/8 AEROBIC NO WEIGHTS      30      33/10   26/6    36/6 SWIMMING                35      32/9    27/5    37/9 BODYBUILDING            24      31/8    23/4    33/8 MARTIAL ARTS            56      32/10   24/5    33/8 FENCING                 30      31/9    26/5    37/9 TRIATHLON               43      32/9    24.5    32/7# BOWLING                 25      19/6*   20/4*   39/9# DANCING                 27      30/10   25/6    36/7 GOLF                    IR/DCA TENNIS                  IR/DCA MEDITATION              IR/DCA SKIING                  IR/DCA """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" 1) IR/DCA = insufficient responses/data cannot be analyzed 2) * bowlers reported the lowest deprivation sensations for the times when they cannot bowl. This finding may be related to the fact that bowlers did not expect HEALTH benefits from bowling in contrast to respondents from the other groups. In fact, bowlers reported starting & maintaining their activity for other than health reasons, mostly enjoyment, fun, social gathering, and/or competition. 3) # triathletes reported the lowest TA while bowlers indi- cated the highest TA in this sample. They were statistically different from one another, but NOT from the other groups. All TA scores in all groups were either comparable or lower than population norms based on American college students. B) GENDER COMPARISONS Regardless of the activity group, ladies reported slightly (but statistically significantly)  greater commitment (CM) to their activity than gents: averages/SD: ladies=52.3/5.8, gents=50.6/5.3 (p=0.01, that means that the chance occurrence of this finding is 1/100). Regardless of the activity group, ladies reported greater deprivation sensations than gents for the times when they cannot perform their chosen activity: averages/SD: DP1  ladies=33.3/9.9, gents=28.8/9.9 (p=0.0001)              DP2  ladies=26.6/6, gents=23.6/4.9 (p=0.0001) This finding is consistent with previous findings in studies with runners whereby ladies consistently reported greater de- privation sensations than gents for the times when they could not run. No gender differences in TA were found. C) REASONS FOR STARTING AND CONTINUING THE ADOPTED ACTIVITY 2 categories: C1 – health reason; C2 = other reason Respondents who started their activity for health reason(s) reported lower TA than those who started for another reason: averages/SD: C1=34.1/7.5, C2=35.8/8.3 (p=0.05) When these results were followed-up for gender related differences, the statistical significance prevailed for males ONLY. Respondents who maintained their activity for health reasons reported greater deprivation sensations (DP1 & DP2) than the respondents who continued their activity for other reasons: averages/SD: DP1 C1=32.4/9.9, C2=28.8/9 (p=0.003)              DP2 C1=25.6/5.6, C2=23.7/5.2 (p=0.001) D) CORRELATIONS No significant correlations were found (whole sample) between any of the following variables: age length of adherence to the adopted activity weekly frequency of the activity duration of the activity commitment to the activity trait anxiety deprivation sensations when unable to perform the activity When correlations were performed separately for females & males, two statistically significant correlations were found for males ONLY: 1) DP1 and frequency of the activity (r=.21, p=0.01) 2) DP2 and TA (r=.21, p=0.01) Accordingly, more frequently active males also reported more intense deprivation sensations (when their activity cannot be performed) and males with greater TA also reported greater deprivation sensations. Again, these results are restricted to males.  COMMENT: a .21 correlation, even though it is sta- tistically significant, is not a reflection of a very strong association between the studied variables. E) ABOUT THE QUESTIONNAIRES (for the scientist in you) The questionnaires used had good internal consistencies: CM  = .80 (Cronbach alpha above .75 is fairly good) DP1 = .77 DP2 = .76 TA  = .86 F) GENERAL REMARKS These results may not be representative of the population within the studied activity (rather they’d be restricted to a subsample with access to the Internet) if class, education level and/or so- cial status are mediating factors in the surveyed activity. I wish to thank one more time to all of you who helped and took part in this study. The success of this study suggests that scientific research will soon find a productive ground on the Internet. *** NO PART OF THESE RESULTS, DIRECTLY OR IMPLICITLY, MAY BE USED, REPRODUCED OR REFERRED TO IN ANY FORM OF INFORMATION DISTRIBUTING MEDIA WITHOUT FORMAL CONSENT FROM THE RESEARCHER IN CHARGE *** Dr. Attila Szabo, Ph.D. Department of Health Science and Sports Medicine Hungarian University of Physical Education H-1123 Budapest, Alkotas u. 44,  Hungary If you have questions/concerns, please e-mail me. I’ll be glad to help to the best of my ability. Also, if you have comments or criticisms regarding research and/or taking part in research on the net, I’d be very pleased to hear them. THIS MESSAGE WILL NOT BE POSTED AGAIN.

Response:

Question:

  I want to prepare for s sprint triathlon and some semi-local TTs but while the courses are flat, I have noting but hills and mountains to ride on.  Can someone suggest a TT training plan built around all hills? Thanks. Ken Litwak

Response:

  I want to prepare for s sprint triathlon and some semi-local TTs but while the courses are flat, I have noting but hills and mountains to ride on.  Can someone suggest a TT training plan built around all hills? Thanks. Ken Litwak

If your training in the hills you should be able to "fly in the flats"! We have nothing but hills and bigger hills around here.  When I get the chance to race in the flats it feels like heaven.  Now if you had the reverse situation, you would have something to worry about! Mike

Response:

  I want to prepare for s sprint triathlon and some semi-local TTs but while the courses are flat, I have noting but hills and mountains to ride on.  Can someone suggest a TT training plan built around all hills? Thanks. If your training in the hills you should be able to "fly in the flats"! We have nothing but hills and bigger hills around here.  When I get the chance to race in the flats it feels like heaven.  Now if you had the reverse situation, you would have something to worry about!

Many triathletes envy you! You can train for flats by being strong in the hills, but its tough for flatlanders to get strong on the hills. If you need to just get used to long-term hammering you could do it on a windtrainer.

Response:

Question:

Allan J) writes:

World Duathlon results?? Check in rec.sport.triathlon- if they are not there- then post a message and hopefully someone will repost them- they were posted a few days ago right after the race, but I cant remember who won. Ironmark

Response:

If anyone has results from the World Duoathalon Champ’s which were held recently in Australia, I believe, could they please post them or send directly to me.  I am especially interested in how the Canadian entrants did – Nigel Gray in particular. Thanks, Allan Pribaz /  Queen’s University           phone : (613) 546-2499          / /  Civil Engineering            home  : 107 York St.            / /  Kingston, ON                         Kingston, ON            /       /  Canada                               K7K 1P9                 /

Response: