Question:

Well, I’m still sticking with it!  The going has been very, very slow.  I’m up 3/4 pound this week which would be depressing except I’m stronger and all my measurements are down and it appears to be MUSCLE!  (Wuhoo!) Anyway, I worked out 6 days this week and pushed myself on the running – did 1/2 a mile in 5 minutes this morning as part of my warm-up.  Eating is going fine. New this week: stretch marks on my knees have appeared as has a line on my neck and lines on my face.  Losing subcutaneous fat is not all a happy experience for me.  In a related story, my bust measurement is down a full 4" and – goddammit – I miss my boobs! On the bright side, my waist is down to 34" now and I was just thinking this morning in the sauna about how concave my belly has gotten – there’s been a definite reduction in visceral fat.  (My waist was 41" when I started BFL 14 months ago and 37" when Jayjay met me 6 months ago.) Wendy, comfortably wearing size 16 jeans 244/190/174

Response:

I don’t know how you work out 6 times a week.  A 45 min workout 3 x per week is taxing enough!

I do three weightlifting workouts a week where I do about 45 minutes of lifting but do a 10-15 minute warm-up, typically something like running a mile.  I don’t count those warm-ups as cardio workouts.  I do these at the gym and usually bring my four year old son with me – he loves the babysitting room there.   The other three times are cardio and they vary quite a lot and don’t have to be done at the gym.  This week my three cardio workouts were: 1.) Mopping the house before a party (I had a baby shower at my house and 150 people were invited.)  I’m not joking when I say that mopping 3000 square feet on two floors counts as cardio, especially since I was on a deadline.  Definitely aerobic.  I mopped myself straight into the shower. 2.) A mini-triathalon where I did 15 minutes on the Concept II rowing machine, 15 minutes on the elliptical cross-trainer (the one where the arms move, too) and 15 minutes on the recumbant bike.  While biking I did arm and shoulder exercises like "pouring thumbs" for my rotator cuff.  I looked like I was trying to fly.  Good thing I was wearing my MP3 player and couldn’t hear the snickering. 3.) A 20 minute High-Intensity-Interval-Training routine on my NordicTrack at home.  (That’s where you do an all-out sprint for a minute every four minutes.) Note that the first and third workouts were done in the house with kids around.  I also did a few Pilates workouts but I don’t count those as workouts since I’ve got a "Crunch Pilates" DVD with four 10 minute routines and they don’t even raise a sweat.  (But is related the rapid decline of my waist measurement.) Looking over this list I’m struck by a few funny things: I don’t count running a mile as a cardio workout but I *do* count mopping the floor for an hour as one.  LOL, that isn’t the way I used to think!  The other thing is that I don’t even consider getting down on the floor with a mat and doing crunches and planks and pushups as a workout, either.  There was a time when doing 10 minutes of abs and running a mile was the MOST I could hope for in a week! I guess now I figure that if it doesn’t raise my heart-rate up and keep it up for at least 20 minutes then it doesn’t count. Wendy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I’m still sticking with it!  The going has been very, very slow.  I’m up 3/4 pound this week which would be depressing except I’m stronger and all my measurements are down and it appears to be MUSCLE!  (Wuhoo!) Anyway, I worked out 6 days this week and pushed myself on the running – did 1/2 a mile in 5 minutes this morning as part of my warm-up.  Eating is going fine. New this week: stretch marks on my knees have appeared as has a line on my neck and lines on my face.  Losing subcutaneous fat is not all a happy experience for me.  In a related story, my bust measurement is down a full 4" and – goddammit – I miss my boobs! On the bright side, my waist is down to 34" now and I was just thinking this morning in the sauna about how concave my belly has gotten – there’s been a definite reduction in visceral fat.  (My waist was 41" when I started BFL 14 months ago and 37" when Jayjay met me 6 months ago.)

My scale is on the rise too ;-|  And while I know some of it is fat, I’m getting stronger too!  Anyways, I think fall/winter is a good time to bulk, and there’ll be plenty of time for cutting in the spring…  I don’t know how you work out 6 times a week.  A 45 min workout 3 x per week is taxing enough! Can’t wait for ski season to open – then I’ll get more cardio.  It may be open by next weekend, if we get the snow they’re predicting, and then I’ll be able to ski, jet on down to florida for some r&r, then come back and ski again, all in one week! det

Response:

 In a related story, my bust measurement is down a full 4" and – goddammit – I miss my boobs!

etc etc

Response:

Good job. Is sitting on your ass more painful now due to lesser amount of fat? I love everything about my weight loss except that sitting on hard surfaces is less comfortable.

LOL!  No, I assure you, my ass is in no danger of ever becoming boney.   Wendy, "Baby Got Back"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I’m still sticking with it!  The going has been very, very slow.  I’m up 3/4 pound this week which would be depressing except I’m stronger and all my measurements are down and it appears to be MUSCLE!  (Wuhoo!) Anyway, I worked out 6 days this week and pushed myself on the running – did 1/2 a mile in 5 minutes this morning as part of my warm-up.  Eating is going fine. New this week: stretch marks on my knees have appeared as has a line on my neck and lines on my face.  Losing subcutaneous fat is not all a happy experience for me.  In a related story, my bust measurement is down a full 4" and – goddammit – I miss my boobs! On the bright side, my waist is down to 34" now and I was just thinking this morning in the sauna about how concave my belly has gotten – there’s been a definite reduction in visceral fat.  (My waist was 41" when I started BFL 14 months ago and 37" when Jayjay met me 6 months ago.) Wendy, comfortably wearing size 16 jeans 244/190/174

Don’t worry about the small gain – the measurements show you’re making good progress.  I also gained 1/4 pound on the last visit to Curves but the bf was down 1.2%.  I think we should be happy with these types of results more than seeing a smaller number on the scales. I’m jealous of your loss of inches around the waist.  I’ve never had a waist and doubt that I’ll acquire one at this stage in my life Beverly

Response:

Well, I’m still sticking with it!  The going has been very, very slow.  I’m up 3/4 pound this week which would be depressing except I’m stronger and all my measurements are down and it appears to be MUSCLE!  (Wuhoo!)

Go Wendy! New this week: stretch marks on my knees have appeared as has a line on my neck and lines on my face.  Losing subcutaneous fat is not all a happy experience for me.  In a related story, my bust measurement is down a full 4" and – goddammit – I miss my boobs!

I honestly don’t miss mine.  One benefit to the way they flattened out – my mammogram last week was a *lot* easier than last year’s.  Push-ups and pads do a very nice job for dressing up and they’re out of the way for volleyball and other exercise. Losing the subcu fat has made the jiggling around my body go away.  I was having problems that I thought were from the skin, but instead were from the fat that was under the skin.  I still have hanging skin, but it doesn’t hurt when it moves like it did when it still had a layer of fat under it. On the bright side, my waist is down to 34" now and I was just thinking this morning in the sauna about how concave my belly has gotten – there’s been a definite reduction in visceral fat.  (My waist was 41" when I started BFL 14 months ago and 37" when Jayjay met me 6 months ago.) Wendy, comfortably wearing size 16 jeans 244/190/174

Keep up the good work.  You might be a 16 but because of the muscle you probably *appear* smaller. I found that is what’s happened with me.  When I was 150, most people guessed my weight as 130-135. Jenn

Response:

Wendy, you have done so well and I’m also down to a size 16 and weigh 188. It’s just so great watching the scales go down plus the clothe’s size shrinking I’m unable to get much cardio but I take short walks all that I can do and I’m not very young either (59 years) but I’m able to move easier since my weight-loss. I have watched your wonderful progress with BFL challenge and I’m full of envy. You have found the program which works for you!! Ciao, glo

Response:

Question:

Mark, Yes, but if I beat you in a race by running strategically, I still beat you, and most would consider me the superior runner.  Would you expect me to not drop you on a hill if I could, since this wouldn’t "even the odds"? Owen McCall "Get away from that water table!"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ahhh…  but let’s even the odds by giving the Gazelle a gourd of water Sounds like the victim was defeated strategically rather than "outrun". — mark Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate. There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better Owen McCall (snip) In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate. There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better

But, if a hungry lion happened to show up while the guys were jogging after the gazelle what would the lion be having for lunch, gazelle or human? Who is the better runner then? It’s a bit like asking who is the better runner, Maurice Greene or Khalid Khannouchi. They’re both just better at what they do – neither is a better "runner" than the other. Perhaps your question should have been, which has a better combination of endurance and intelligence, the human or the gazelle? — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

Response:

Sorry, I still don’t get it.  What do you mean by hip rotation?  What I visualize when you say that is the kind of motion in your hips you would need in order to go from sitting with your legs out in front of you to sitting in the lotus position.  That can’t be right, so could you try

Imagine your hips locked and always perpenticular to the path you are running. Your legs would have a limited reach forward. Now imagine your hips rotating around its axis somewhat with each stride. Now, the legs are able to reach forward much farther. You can notice this while walking. jack

Response:

Ahhh…  but let’s even the odds by giving the Gazelle a gourd of water Sounds like the victim was defeated strategically rather than "outrun". — mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate. There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better Owen McCall (snip) In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

Response:

Not necessarily.  Depends on how you define "run".  (God, I sound like Clinton.)  There is an African tribe who hunt Gazelles and other very fast ungulates, on foot.  Two guys start out at dawn carrying light spears, a water gourd, and a little gourd of dried sorghum to munch on.  They spot a victim and JOG toward it.  It runs away.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Repeat. Repeat.  They continue to pursue, JOGGING.  The team keeps the animal moving all day long and only run when necessary to drive the animal away from water holes;  the second guy refills the gourd at said water holes.  Near the end of the day, as the sun is setting, they JOG up to the Gazelle and chuck their spears into the prostrate, exhausted & dehydrated unfortunate.  There you have it:  a way to earn your living by jogging.  Which is the better Owen McCall

(snip) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

Response:

Interesting  stuff, Fred.  I agree that we human’s can learn a lot from studying the ‘ancient runners’ — which is just about any animal that can develop 15+mph speed over ground. We are new runners.  In fact, even the world’s best running humans are poor runners in comparison. — mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This brings up a further interesting question of where the energy expended in running actually goes: is most of the energy used in generating forward motion (I assume by the calves, hamstrings and glutes) or is the energy involved in pulling the leg itself forward for each new step (with which muscles? the quads, abs and, to an extent, shins?) a significant part of the total energy use. If, as your post suggests, little energy is used in actually moving the leg forward for the next step then any increase in stride length is basically "free" extra speed. Anyway, I think I’ll be seeing if I can do this at all in practice tonight’s fartlek run (always a good session for trying out new things)… Ok.  This is as good a thread as any to dump this on all of you. A runner moving at steady speed on level ground does no useful work.  His potential energy doesn’t change from one step to the next as long as he doesn’t go up or downhill, and at steady speed, his kinetic energy doesn’t change.  This means his efficiency (the ratio of output power to input power) is zero.  If we’re going to talk about this, we have to use another word, say ‘economy.’ Common sense tells us that he expends energy though, and the rate of expenditure is related to his speed over the ground and the economy of his gait. But what are the mechanics of that expenditure, and what are the elements that contribute to economy?  In the current r.r canon, proper gait has footstrike occurring immediately below the center of gravity and the linkage between center of gravity and the foot contact patch elongating at a rate just enough to maintain the center of gravity at a constant distance from the ground (no head bobbing.)  If we think about the desirability of the leg to act like a wheel with the center of gravity at the axle, we have to say that it’s nothing like a wheel unless we say that we’re going to elongate the spokes to the contact patch somehow to accommodate changing angle. So how does this happen?  The ‘linkage’ includes the pelvis, upper and lower leg bones, ankle and toe.  ’Elongation’ means some combination of rotation of the pelvis as discussed in this thread (moving the push-off hip joint rearward relative to the center of gravity), rotation of the pelvis about the fore-and-aft axis (moving the push-off hip joint down relative the the center of gravity), locking the knee, fully extending the ankle by contracting the hamstring and glute, and finally push-off with the toe. <digression  Some time ago, I think that it was in the triathlon group, there was a discussion about the desirability  of stretching the ankle in extension for runners.  The conclusion was that for runners, it was unnecessary, but for tris, it was desirable because extended ankles made for a more effective kick in the swim.  But if the above linkage model has any validity for runners, too, the members opposing the contraction of the hams and glutes should be as supple as possible. </digression With this motion, energy is expended in the following way.  In the ideal case in which the center of gravity has no up and down motion, the net vertical force on the push-off contact patch must be equal to the runner’s weight.  Isaac says so.  It’s the elongation of the linkage against this vertical force that expends the energy – force times distance, just like in high school physics.  Why does the rate of energy expenditure go up at higher speeds?  Higher speeds mean longer strides, longer strides mean bigger angles for the linkage to work through (it takes zero energy to support the center of gravity as it passes over the contact patch; it takes a rapidly increasing amount as the contact patch moves out behind).  qed. With the completely unscientific guidance of maybe 10 or 15 thousand miles of running with huskies and malamutes, I claim that economy comes from exploiting small motions of large muscle groups, and, at the appropriate times, locked out joints.  Arguably, the canine trot is the most economical way of getting over the countryside (1000 miles in ten days on kibbles and some salmon strips), and, I claim, it’s because they’ve become masters at the strategy.  At the trot, the entire complex action of their forequarters comes from a periodic flick of the shoulders.  Everything else, bones, joints, feet, pads simply fly forward into place and lock out at the instant they are needed.  In the rear quarters, things aren’t quite so simple, but the motion is dominated by the hams and the rump muscles. Dogs have been working on propulsion for a few million years longer than we have, so maybe there’s something to learn from them.  Our hams and glutes might be the most economical muscle groups at extending the linkage, but the large muscles of the torso work too.  I suspect that the least economical groups are the quads and whatever else is required to support the bobbing bent-knee bent-over gait such as the one I use cresting the hill at mile 7. It’s sometimes mentioned (but somehow the idea evidently hasn’t entered the canon) in the ‘cadence’ threads that the preferred (high) cadence is no mistake.  It derives (those contributors say) from the pendulum period of the free swinging leg.  If this be true, then the most economical way for biped to swing the leg forward is to flick that hip joint forward (and maybe up a bit) and wait for the leg to follow through.  No quads, no psoas, no nothing except the small motions of the large muscles of the torso working against the counter rotations of the shoulders and the motion of the arms. So far, I haven’t seen much discussion about whether or not the knee should lock out at this point, but ‘economy’ would certainly argue for it. Advice is usually worth what you pay for it. Fred Klingener Roxbury CT

Response:

Also remember, 8% of of your energy expenditure is to push air away (when running distance) and up to 15% if running 100 meters at good speed. (From ‘Lore of Running’)

Response:

With this motion, energy is expended in the following way.  In the ideal case in which the center of gravity has no up and down motion, the net vertical force on the push-off contact patch must be equal to the runner’s weight.  Isaac says so.  It’s the elongation of the linkage against this vertical force that expends the energy – force times distance, just like in high school physics.  Why does the rate of energy expenditure go up at higher speeds?  Higher speeds mean longer strides, longer strides mean bigger angles for the linkage to work through (it takes zero energy to support the center of gravity as it passes over the contact patch; it takes a rapidly increasing amount as the contact patch moves out behind).  qed.

To extend what you say here, there must always be some vertical motion because there are periods (however brief) during each stride when both feet are off the ground (let’s call it ‘flight time’) and at this moment the body is, effectively, in free fall. In theory also, as the stride length becomes longer the ratio of ground contact time to flight time reduces so for an equal cadence more energy needs to be expended combatting the effects of gravity. It would also be true that for a reduced cadence the flight time would be longer which maybe partly explains why higher cadences are more efficient, especially as the energy required to combat gravity would be proportional to the flight time squared. — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

Response:

Yes but in a slightly different context. When I used to run competitive 400m’s, I felt warming up my hips so they would open up was my most important preparation for a race. Even now, I try to open them up to run faster without more effort.

Interesting.  I seem to recall that Australian Cathy Freeman had pronounced hip rotation on the final straight of her Olympic 400m final.  It pretty much looked to me like it was the difference in the race.

Response:

I getting a little confused by this thread… when you’re talking about ‘opening the hips’, do you mean they rotate more with the legs, or that they allow more forwards/backwards leg movement or something else? Could someone explain further? — Regards, Barry

Barry…. That’s exactly right — the hips rotate more with the legs *AND* allow more forward/backward leg movement.  By relaxing the hips and allowing them to rotate more freely with each stride, you are essentially adding length (and leverage) to your "legs".  As Ozzie mentioned above, picture your legs starting at the bottom of your rib cage instead of at your pelvic bone.  For me, that’s 10 inches of DESPERATELY NEEDED leg length (short inseam here). This rotation also seems to transfer some of the workload from the leg/hip muscles to the trunk. Seems to me this is an absolutely critical issue of form and mechanics.  If you take two identical runners (same physical characteristics and fitness) and runner A has limited hip rotation and runner B runs with relaxed, freely-rotating hips, runner B will have a longer stride without any additional effort required.  A 6 inch longer stride with the same cadence yields a pace difference of 10% for me.  If all I have to do is relax and be conscious of hip rotation to get that extra 10% on my speed, it’s a gift I’ll gladly accept! — mark

Response:

This brings up a further interesting question of where the energy expended in running actually goes: is most of the energy used in generating forward motion (I assume by the calves, hamstrings and glutes) or is the energy involved in pulling the leg itself forward for each new step (with which muscles? the quads, abs and, to an extent, shins?) a significant part of the total energy use. If, as your post suggests, little energy is used in actually moving the leg forward for the next step then any increase in stride length is basically "free" extra speed. Anyway, I think I’ll be seeing if I can do this at all in practice tonight’s fartlek run (always a good session for trying out new things)…

Ok.  This is as good a thread as any to dump this on all of you. A runner moving at steady speed on level ground does no useful work.  His potential energy doesn’t change from one step to the next as long as he doesn’t go up or downhill, and at steady speed, his kinetic energy doesn’t change.  This means his efficiency (the ratio of output power to input power) is zero.  If we’re going to talk about this, we have to use another word, say ‘economy.’ Common sense tells us that he expends energy though, and the rate of expenditure is related to his speed over the ground and the economy of his gait. But what are the mechanics of that expenditure, and what are the elements that contribute to economy?  In the current r.r canon, proper gait has footstrike occurring immediately below the center of gravity and the linkage between center of gravity and the foot contact patch elongating at a rate just enough to maintain the center of gravity at a constant distance from the ground (no head bobbing.)  If we think about the desirability of the leg to act like a wheel with the center of gravity at the axle, we have to say that it’s nothing like a wheel unless we say that we’re going to elongate the spokes to the contact patch somehow to accommodate changing angle. So how does this happen?  The ‘linkage’ includes the pelvis, upper and lower leg bones, ankle and toe.  ’Elongation’ means some combination of rotation of the pelvis as discussed in this thread (moving the push-off hip joint rearward relative to the center of gravity), rotation of the pelvis about the fore-and-aft axis (moving the push-off hip joint down relative the the center of gravity), locking the knee, fully extending the ankle by contracting the hamstring and glute, and finally push-off with the toe. <digression  Some time ago, I think that it was in the triathlon group, there was a discussion about the desirability  of stretching the ankle in extension for runners.  The conclusion was that for runners, it was unnecessary, but for tris, it was desirable because extended ankles made for a more effective kick in the swim.  But if the above linkage model has any validity for runners, too, the members opposing the contraction of the hams and glutes should be as supple as possible. </digression With this motion, energy is expended in the following way.  In the ideal case in which the center of gravity has no up and down motion, the net vertical force on the push-off contact patch must be equal to the runner’s weight.  Isaac says so.  It’s the elongation of the linkage against this vertical force that expends the energy – force times distance, just like in high school physics.  Why does the rate of energy expenditure go up at higher speeds?  Higher speeds mean longer strides, longer strides mean bigger angles for the linkage to work through (it takes zero energy to support the center of gravity as it passes over the contact patch; it takes a rapidly increasing amount as the contact patch moves out behind).  qed. With the completely unscientific guidance of maybe 10 or 15 thousand miles of running with huskies and malamutes, I claim that economy comes from exploiting small motions of large muscle groups, and, at the appropriate times, locked out joints.  Arguably, the canine trot is the most economical way of getting over the countryside (1000 miles in ten days on kibbles and some salmon strips), and, I claim, it’s because they’ve become masters at the strategy.  At the trot, the entire complex action of their forequarters comes from a periodic flick of the shoulders.  Everything else, bones, joints, feet, pads simply fly forward into place and lock out at the instant they are needed.  In the rear quarters, things aren’t quite so simple, but the motion is dominated by the hams and the rump muscles. Dogs have been working on propulsion for a few million years longer than we have, so maybe there’s something to learn from them.  Our hams and glutes might be the most economical muscle groups at extending the linkage, but the large muscles of the torso work too.  I suspect that the least economical groups are the quads and whatever else is required to support the bobbing bent-knee bent-over gait such as the one I use cresting the hill at mile 7. It’s sometimes mentioned (but somehow the idea evidently hasn’t entered the canon) in the ‘cadence’ threads that the preferred (high) cadence is no mistake.  It derives (those contributors say) from the pendulum period of the free swinging leg.  If this be true, then the most economical way for biped to swing the leg forward is to flick that hip joint forward (and maybe up a bit) and wait for the leg to follow through.  No quads, no psoas, no nothing except the small motions of the large muscles of the torso working against the counter rotations of the shoulders and the motion of the arms. So far, I haven’t seen much discussion about whether or not the knee should lock out at this point, but ‘economy’ would certainly argue for it. Advice is usually worth what you pay for it. Fred Klingener Roxbury CT

Response:

| That’s exactly right — the hips rotate more with the legs *AND* allow more | forward/backward leg movement.  By relaxing the hips and allowing them to | rotate more freely with each stride, you are essentially adding length (and | leverage) to your "legs". Sorry, I still don’t get it.  What do you mean by hip rotation?  What I visualize when you say that is the kind of motion in your hips you would need in order to go from sitting with your legs out in front of you to sitting in the lotus position.  That can’t be right, so could you try to describe it again? Zak

Response:

This brings up a further interesting question of where the energy expended in running actually goes: is most of the energy used in generating forward motion (I assume by the calves, hamstrings and glutes) or is the energy involved in pulling the leg itself forward for each new step (with which muscles? the quads, abs and, to an extent, shins?) a significant part of the total energy use. If, as your post suggests, little energy is used in actually moving the leg forward for the next step then any increase in stride length is basically "free" extra speed. Anyway, I think I’ll be seeing if I can do this at all in practice tonight’s fartlek run (always a good session for trying out new things)… — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I getting a little confused by this thread… when you’re talking about ‘opening the hips’, do you mean they rotate more with the legs, or that they allow more forwards/backwards leg movement or something else? Could someone explain further? — Regards, Barry Barry…. That’s exactly right — the hips rotate more with the legs *AND* allow more forward/backward leg movement.  By relaxing the hips and allowing them to rotate more freely with each stride, you are essentially adding length (and leverage) to your "legs".  As Ozzie mentioned above, picture your legs starting at the bottom of your rib cage instead of at your pelvic bone. For me, that’s 10 inches of DESPERATELY NEEDED leg length (short inseam here). This rotation also seems to transfer some of the workload from the leg/hip muscles to the trunk. Seems to me this is an absolutely critical issue of form and mechanics. If you take two identical runners (same physical characteristics and fitness) and runner A has limited hip rotation and runner B runs with relaxed, freely-rotating hips, runner B will have a longer stride without any additional effort required.  A 6 inch longer stride with the same cadence yields a pace difference of 10% for me.  If all I have to do is relax and be conscious of hip rotation to get that extra 10% on my speed, it’s a gift I’ll gladly accept! — mark

Response:

.. Seems to me this is an absolutely critical issue of form and mechanics. If you take two identical runners (same physical characteristics and fitness) and runner A has limited hip rotation and runner B runs with relaxed, freely-rotating hips, runner B will have a longer stride without any additional effort required.

Well, not quite, but the propulsion comes from the large muscle groups of the torso – a net plus. Fred

Response:

I made an interesting observation a few days ago.  (Please ignore any references to my HRM and treadmill — we’ll save those topics for another day.) I typically warm up (or transition from cycling to running) at a 8 minute mile pace for the first 5 minutes.  After a particularly difficult cycling session, my legs felt a little sluggish and I noticed my heart rate was hovering in the high 140s at the end of my 5 minute warm up period.  The run plan for the day called for 45 minutes at 7 minute mile pace.  At the 5 minute mark I increased the pace from 8mm to 7mm.  I felt the usual struggle for a few moments until I found my "groove" and fully adjusted to the new pace.  At the 10 minute point I noticed my heart rate had fallen to 140, which was simply the tangible confirmation of what I had already felt happening.  My stride had lengthened, I was more relaxed, more fluid than I had been at the slower "transition" pace.  And I was actually working LESS while running 1 minute per mile faster. Here’s what I think happened:  I was able to observe my running form in the reflection in the window in front of me.  I noticed that as I increased the pace the first thing I did was to increase my stride frequency…  this only lasted for about 30 seconds before my frequency began to settle back and my stride length began to increase.  At first I felt like I was over-striding. But after another half-minute or so, the new stride felt about right.  I noticed from my reflection that my vertical movement (head bobbing up and down) had become minimal and my hips seemed to be what had given me the increase in stride length.  At the slower pace, my hips remained basically squared to the front.  I could clearly see that my hips had opened up at the faster pace, thereby becoming an extension of my legs which allowed more "reach" without an increase in the effort required to push off. Ever make a similar observation? Does this mean that anyone who never crosses this "hip rotation threshold" pace might have hit an artificial speed barrier, and that simply learning to open their hips could improve their pace — dramatically? — Mark

Response:

I could clearly see that my hips had opened up at the faster pace, thereby becoming an extension of my legs which allowed more "reach" without an increase in the effort required to push off. Ever make a similar observation?

Yes but in a slightly different context. When I used to run competitive 400m’s, I felt warming up my hips so they would open up was my most important preparation for a race. Even now, I try to open them up to run faster without more effort. jack

Response:

I getting a little confused by this thread… when you’re talking about ‘opening the hips’, do you mean they rotate more with the legs, or that they allow more forwards/backwards leg movement or something else? Could someone explain further? — Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I could clearly see that my hips had opened up at the faster pace, thereby becoming an extension of my legs which allowed more "reach" without an increase in the effort required to push off. Ever make a similar observation? Yes but in a slightly different context. When I used to run competitive 400m’s, I felt warming up my hips so they would open up was my most important preparation for a race. Even now, I try to open them up to run faster without more effort. jack

Response:

Question:

I think I am going to have the worst last-week preparation for what was my season’s goal. The Triathlon in Nice will take place in ten days. Today my boss told me I have to go to Munich next Thursday and Friday. The people I will meet in Munich insist on going to Oktoberfest on Thursday night. The day after the triathlon I will leave for another business trip in… Buenos Aires! At least I’ve been able to change my colleagues mind, they wanted to leave for Argentina on sunday night just after the race. Don’t know why, but I’ve the feeling that I won’t be very relaxed sunday morning on the starting line. Could someone remind me what is the minimum amount of overtime office-work and the recommended number of beers during the taper period ?   Nicolas.

Response:

Hi Nicolas Just try to think of it as carb-loading! Hope to see you in Nice Diane Wynne

Response:

Question:

Could someone please suggest the best web sites for: 1) finding the most extensive triathlon results, and 2) the most extensive calendar of triathlons

here’s some of my favorite’s http://www.coolrunning.com http://www.cftsommersports.com http://www.usatriathlon.org/ http://www.ziplink.net/~brianj http://www.firm-racing.cnchost.com/ http://www.nytc.org/ Tim Hignett Buaidh No Bas http://members.aol.com/hignett/index.html

Response:

Could someone please suggest the best web sites for: 1) finding the most extensive triathlon results, and 2) the most extensive calendar of triathlons

Well, for results, you can try my not-quite-ready-for-prime-time (but nearly) http://www.triathloncentral.com/rpdir/main/s_races_chron Thanks, Katherine Williams

Response:

Lee,      This one is high on my list (http://www.extremetri.com/home.html) for 1) and 2). Steve Bean

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Could someone please suggest the best web sites for: 1) finding the most extensive triathlon results, and 2) the most extensive calendar of triathlons Any help would be deeply appreciated. Lee

Response:

Could someone please suggest the best web sites for: 1) finding the most extensive triathlon results, and 2) the most extensive calendar of triathlons Any help would be deeply appreciated. Lee

Response:

Question:

i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

Response:

Under British Triathlon Association rules you would be disqualified for nudity – I guess you must be more open minded out there. I think you should cover up to limit dehydration. Diane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

Response:

i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

 At IMC, you would be disqualified also. — Tri Your Hardest!   /O     ___o      o  ~~~~   _ <,_    <|        (*)/ (*)      / Darrin Bartlett

Response:

i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

A few things: 1) Depending on the day you may not get much sun at the Vineman. It really depends on what the marine cloud/fog layer does on the day. I have done the race twice once with overcast conditions almost the whole race and the other time it was sunny most of the day and quite warm. 2) It is my understanding that there is a rule in place now that say you must wear a top of some sort while racing both on the bike and on the run. 3) The new fabrics such as coolmax, coretech, technofine etc, actually help to keep you cool by(and I am not really sure on this) assisting with the evaporative cooling effect. Steve Fleck

Response:

i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

Personally, I prefer racing wearing a singlet.  If you do in fact decide to race with a singlet or coolmax shirt, please wear it on a few training runs.  Since you normally train bare chested, your "man nipples" might not be used to any chafing that may occur…..and this chafing is mighty unpleasant.  To summarize, train with the shirt, lube up your nipples (or cover them with band-aids), and have a great race. Greg Pressler

Response:

I’m not sure that covering help reduce dehydration. If I remember Mark Jenkins info on the subject, clothing is a detriment to cooling until it becomes saturated enough to allow evaporation on its surface. The evaporation is what cools. When I cool off in front of a fan (out of public view), I always cool off faster without clothing. What I’m not sure about is the effect of the sun on the skin. Even with sunscreen, the direct sunlight on the skin may have some heating effect. It’s probably related to sunburn, in which case the appropriate sunscreen should do just as well as clothing. I wear a singlet for two reasons. The first is because the rules require it, but even if they did not, the second would win the day. I hold a firm commitment to neighborhood beautification, and the sight of me, dressed only in a Speedo, parading around the neighborhood does not appeal. Chafing nipples is only a problem on cool days when the skin is at that tacky stage between wet and dry. For me, Runner’s Lube or Body Glide solves the chafing problem there and elsewhere. Under British Triathlon Association rules you would be disqualified for nudity – I guess you must be more open minded out there. I think you should cover up to limit dehydration. Diane i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

Response:

Damian: To be honest, I doubt any ol’ singlet will provide much sun protection.  I’d say wear (or not wear( something that’s comfortable for you.  As for the sun, just slap on some sunscreen before the start of the race (usually after they mark you up or else the numbers just come off). Kendall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

Response:

There is a pre race expo which will have at the very least "Vineman" tops and probably DeSoto, Zoot, Orca (maybe mail order only) and a few others to try on and purchase. The sun is strong out here right now – get a top! I’ll be at run aid station #4 – what kind of beer do you like?  Just kidding. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

Response:

Question:

Anyways, putting on my cynical hat, I often wonder if this behavior is not deliberate.  It seems to happen often near the finish line where there are many camaras.

Oh yeah, man. Two years ago PNF just staged that thing for the attention. You could tell she was faking it. She didn’t need the extra prize money, you know? Sheesh. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/running.htm My Model Railroad Layout http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/srr.htm

Response:

" But let me say that it makes me very uncomfortable that the film of Wendy and Sian’s struggle is almost certainly going to become the focal point of the TV coverage and is being talked about in other threads as making a lot of money for the networks." After all the negitive feedback NBC received after the PNF experience in 1995 I  can’t believe they would be STUPID enough to give it much attention. I can’t  understand why the IMH’s TV coverage which is paramount to growth in our sport  continues to support NBC which doesn’t support/understand Triathlon.

Response:

hould have been in the med tent. wouldn’t you feel cheated out of the experience of seeing these superb athletes, stretched to the limits of their endurance, overcoming their bodies’ limits and WILLING themselves over the line?

After hearing everything about it on rst, I can’t wait.  I know we will be  watching from a little different perspective than the average non-participant,  but none the less excited. Dan Herrema

Response:

Still, the scene that took place, no matter how riveting or inspiring, should not have taken place.  The rules against crawling should have been enforced.  Why?  Because if these types of scenes are allowed to take place then someday a triathlete is going to die.  The event does not justify the risk of such an outcome. I would argue that a rule is a rule (I have not seen a definitely post of what the rule actually is).  If the rule states no crawling, then no crawling is allowed, no matter who the athlete is.  

I did IMC this year and I seem to remember the wording "No other form of locomotion besides running, walking or crawling will be allowed."  I remember thinking it was odd to promote such behavior.  I’ll have to check my race material to see if this was the exact wording.  Anyone still have the booklet?   Anyways, putting on my cynical hat, I often wonder if this behavior is not deliberate.  It seems to happen often near the finish line where there are many camaras.  I’m not saying that this particular instance was a setup.  I was not there and did not see the tape.  Also since it involved two athletes the chance seem remote.  I’m just wondering if all the attention and exposure TV gives athletes who come across the line in this condition does not promote them doing so.   Dave Brueggen  

Response:

first paragraph of my post: I would argue that a rule is a rule (I have not seen a definitely post of what the rule actually is).  If the rule states no crawling, then no crawling is allowed, no matter who the athlete is.  

There apparently is no clear word yet whether crawling is against the rules at IMH.  If it is not, then some of the points in my earlier post are not valid. Still, I think this issue is more than just a simple "it’s a rule/it’s not a rule"  decision. I highly doubt that crawling has very much to do with a triathlete is on the verge of death.  That fact that an athlete can still crawl suggests that both mental and physical capacity remain.

I didn’t say that everyone who can crawl is at the "verge of death".  My statement that someday someone will die if such conditions are allowed is based on anecdotal evidence from medical sources.  Below is an exerpt from Mark Jenkins’ (M.D.) page: Last summer (July 1994) a well conditioned athlete entered a 1/2-Ironman distance race with hopes of putting in her best performance. She was well trained and had raced in the heat before. It turned out to be a very hot west Texas day (110 degrees F, 45% humidity). Things were going well until the run. After one mile, she experienced diarrhea and painful quadriceps muscle cramps. By mile 6 1/2 she had headaches and had stopped sweating. She managed a slow, painful finish, tried to hydrate, but became delirious. The medical staff was called.  Intravenous fluids were started, but she deteriorated and began vomiting. After transfer to the hospital she had seizures. She experienced widespread muscle breakdown, severe electrolyte disturbance, kidney damage, and her lungs filled with fluid. She was placed on artificial life support and was given a 50:50 chance of survival. Fortunately, she lived, but is still recovering. (see http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/dehydration.html) This woman never got to the point of crawling and she nearly died.  I don’t think this is the only example of heat/dehydration threatening an athlete’s life.  I do think the chances of severe injury or death are sufficient to warrant very serious consideration. snipped some of my stuff about officials making decisions. The decision to leave the course should be a combination of an official, the athlete, and at least one other person who knows that athlete – a coach, a trainer, spouse, etc..  The athlete may or may not have the ability to make a rational decision, but nevertheless will probably want to continue – the athlete may have lost the ability to know their own capabilities, but may still have the mental and physical capability of continuing. The official seeing someone in trouble is likely to pull an athlete out of the competition, but the official does not know what the capabilities of the athlete are and the official should be more interested in their job that with the athlete.  With a third person involved, someone who knows the athlete, they have the best ability to judge what the athlete can do safely.

In a perfect world, your suggestion would probably work well.  However, I think the officials have to have the authority to make a decision on their own. A third person will be unavailable in many cases and may not have the insight/expertise/judgement to help in the decision in many other cases. More snippage. For the moments that were seen, neither Wendy or Sian could stand, but what’s to say that 2 minutes or 5 minutes later they would be alright and be able to stand again and finish on foot.  If this had happened miles from the finish, my guess is that they would have sat down, got some water, and massaged their legs until they could continue.  The fact that it happened to multiple athletes within sight of the finish line and who are in the same division changes the options the athlete must consider.  If there is the ability to continue to crawl, that’s an option and that’s what they did.  Now if the rule states no crawling, officials should have stopped both of them and told them you can’t continue until you can stand. The body can withstand far more than most can imagine.

I’m sure you are correct.  I’m also sure that in some cases it can stand less than an athlete will put it through.  I think the rule against crawling makes sense from a health standpoint.  It should be in place at IMH (if it is not now), and should be enforced if it is in place.  I also think that medical personnel should have the authority to remove athletes from the race when their health is at risk.  I would be interested in hearing from medical professionals as to whether an inability to stand upright and walk constitutes conditions consistent with such a risk.  My layman’s judgement is that it does.  I’m willing to be convinced that it does not, and that it was a sound MEDICAL decision to allow Wendy and Sian to finish the race Saturday. Mark Vande Kamp

Response:

I would argue that a rule is a rule (I have not seen a definitely post of what the rule actually is).  If the rule states no crawling, then no crawling is allowed, no matter who the athlete is.  

In Australia (where the rules are generally identical to ITU rules) it definately states No Crawling in the rule book. I highly doubt that crawling has very much to do with a triathlete is on the verge of death.  That fact that an athlete can still crawl suggests that both mental and physical capacity remain.

A friend of mine told me of a story about a competitor in Forster a couple of years ago who was so dehydrated that he didn’t know where he was, who he was or which race he was in.  He only knew that he was racing and that he had to finish. He wasn’t crawling but in that state he wasn’t real good either The decision to leave the course should be a combination of an official, the athlete, and at least one other person who knows that athlete – a coach, a trainer, spouse, etc..  The athlete may or may not have the ability to make a rational decision, but nevertheless will probably want to continue – the athlete may have lost the ability to know their own capabilities, but may still have the mental and physical capability of continuing. The official seeing someone in trouble is likely to pull an athlete out of the competition, but the official does not know what the capabilities of the athlete are and the official should be more interested in their job that with the athlete.  

Part of an officials job is to ensure the safety of ALL competitors.  The guy mentioned above would have had to have been forceably removed from the course to stop him. In the end the official, the athlete and a medical person agreed upon a course of action that allowed the competitor to continue without endangering his own health. (Basically it involved drinking a large amount of liquid and being monitored by the medical official for several drink stations) With a third person involved, someone who knows the athlete, they have the best ability to judge what the athlete can do safely.

Theres a couple of problems I can see with this The third person would have absolutly no idea what the competitor has been through. e.g. How much liquid/food  has been injested, how hard they’ve been pushing etc etc etc.   Spouses/Friends etc have seen the all the hard work been put into just getting to an event such as IMH and know how much it means and would want the competitor to finish. The body can withstand far more than most can imagine.

Agreed but sometimes it will only take less than we think. "Tree Slug" Terry

AJ aka Simon Haigh Illawarra Triathlon Club http://www.moreton.qld.edu.au/itc/

Response:

First of all, I have not seen any coverage and am gathering my sense of what happened from reports on this group. Second, I have nothing but admiration for Wendy and Sian as athletes and competitors.  By all accounts they were brave beyond words, and true competitors to the end.  None of what I say below should be read as criticism of them or any other competitors. Still, the scene that took place, no matter how riveting or inspiring, should not have taken place.  The rules against crawling should have been enforced.  Why?  Because if these types of scenes are allowed to take place then someday a triathlete is going to die.  The event does not justify the risk of such an outcome. One might argue that the decision of when to leave the course should be left to the triathlete.  I am very sympathetic to arguments that favor the freedom of the individual, but in this case I think the decision must be made elsewhere.  We all know that athletes can and do push themselves to dangerous extents.  The med tents at any Ironman bear witness to this fact.  It is admirable that this level of discipline exists, but it is so well established that we should need no further reminders.  The physiological fact is that as the limits are reached, the athlete becomes less and less able to make a rational decision.  By pushing beyond normal physical limits the athlete becomes incapable of judging his or her condition and the decision of whether to continue has to be made by officials. I’m sure that the officials have already thought of all this, and that it is part of the basis for the existing rule against crawling.  But why wasn’t a call made on Saturday?  I wasn’t there, so I don’t have a basis to judge.  But let me say that it makes me very uncomfortable that the film of Wendy and Sian’s struggle is almost certainly going to become the focal point of the TV coverage and is being talked about in other threads as making a lot of money for the networks.  Money, exposure, and fame that wouldn’t be there if someone made a call to send the competitors to the med tent.  I’m not comfortable with that situation. One last point.  People (including myself) find it riveting and admirable to see athletes push themselves beyond reasonable limits and risk their health in pursuit of athletic feats.  At the same time, most of us abhor the use of drugs among athletes.  These two situations seem to be completely unrelated.  But are they?  In both cases the athlete is risking their health in order to achieve feats not normally within their ability. In both cases they are being supported by modern medical technology in doing so (the IVs and cooling procedures come after the event, but they still support the performance by minimizing consequences).  In both cases, behavior occurs that is explicitly contrary to the rules (at least in cases where crawling occurs).  Why is one situation so admirable and one so despicable? I don’t think crawling is morally equivalent to drug use, but I think the distinction is finer than we first assume.  I also think that athletes who can no longer stand upright belong in the med tent.  Leaving them to struggle forward, even for a handful of meters ensures that someday one of them, one of us, will die.  Death should not be part of triathlon. Mark Vande Kamp

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah!  the Aussies are great!!! Stroke-Stroke, Pat-Pat, Yaawwwn. It seems that the 2 best Veteran Aussies who really race real triathlons love to live in the U.S.; can  you blame them? It seems all the other up and coming Aussies are content doing the Draftathons with weaker fields.  They seem to be the ones supporting the ITU 10k’s the most. What a shame….cherry picking! You’ll see most of the up and coming US Pro’s with integrity for the sport at the real Triathlons. Don’t stew Stew, I appreciate all Triathletes, from all countries, that support real Triathlons including Greg and Michellie. Gregg Yeah, OK, so my patriotism does get the better of me sometimes – point taken. Greg Thompson – my apologies to you, especially since you spend time here on r.s.t Racing right up there with guys like Welchy and the Piggman must be a real thrill – something that most of us can only dream about! The fact that so many Aussies choose to race in the ITU series does annoy me, though. It would be nice to see them do as Michellie & Welchy have done, and make a stand against drafting. Even if they just ‘crossed over’ to the Bray brothers series – that would leave the ITU with virtually no big names – take away Miles Stewart, Emma Carney, Craig Walton, Chris McCormack, Greg Bennett, etc – and who do they have left. I know it’s not pure triathlon, but it would most likely mean that as well as doing the ITGP series, they might race some of the other great non-ITU events out there – Now that would be great to see! Stew Canberra, ACT AUSTRALIA Aiming for Ironman Australia ‘98

Allright Stew! Sorry I came down so hard but the ITU thing is a sore spot with me. I don’t like there tactics even more than I dislike how they are attempting to change the sport.  Also I have been coaching Thompson, and I will tell you he is a modest guy who will show his stuff on the race course…bigtime.  You won’t find him boast it… but I will.  He is the only up and coming American that has just started to tap his potential for racing with the big guns.  He can swim like Lessing, bike like Pigg or Smith, and run like Welchy, and he’s only 23 years old.  But  I give all the those guys tons of respect because they have earned it, and are consistant.  Hopefully Thompson will gain that same respect with several years of great racing. There are some outstanding Austalian Athletes racing these days.  I also would like to see them perform outside the ITU more, and hone there skills going hard on the bike instead of "sitting in".  Unfortunately, I have heard rumors of $$$ incentives being paid by the ITU to athletes outside of prize money and expenses, to race the series.  It seems the ITU wants to own the sport and everyone in it.  Hopefully, some of the top Aussies will break away and race for pride in big non-draft races. It would be nice to see some Up and coming Aussie’s hone there skills to compete with the Germans in Ironman races.   Best regards Gregg Trent

Response:

where are all of the up & coming young US racers? How about Barb Lindquist and that Greg Thompson guy?

Greg, Haven’t you learned?  The only way up and coming pros get recognized in the US is to win Wildflower (ala Peter Reid and Cameron Widoff). 8^) Congrats to you (and Barb!) on your great races at Alcatraz. Todd Jensen

Response:

Are full results available anywhere?  I have a friend who was racing and I want to see how she did! Try-athlete Paul

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah!  the Aussies are great!!! Stroke-Stroke, Pat-Pat, Yaawwwn. It seems that the 2 best Veteran Aussies who really race real triathlons love to live in the U.S.; can  you blame them? It seems all the other up and coming Aussies are content doing the Draftathons with weaker fields.  They seem to be the ones supporting the ITU 10k’s the most. What a shame….cherry picking! You’ll see most of the up and coming US Pro’s with integrity for the sport at the real Triathlons. Don’t stew Stew, I appreciate all Triathletes, from all countries, that support real Triathlons including Greg and Michellie. Gregg

Yeah, OK, so my patriotism does get the better of me sometimes – point taken. Greg Thompson – my apologies to you, especially since you spend time here on r.s.t Racing right up there with guys like Welchy and the Piggman must be a real thrill – something that most of us can only dream about! The fact that so many Aussies choose to race in the ITU series does annoy me, though. It would be nice to see them do as Michellie & Welchy have done, and make a stand against drafting. Even if they just ‘crossed over’ to the Bray brothers series – that would leave the ITU with virtually no big names – take away Miles Stewart, Emma Carney, Craig Walton, Chris McCormack, Greg Bennett, etc – and who do they have left. I know it’s not pure triathlon, but it would most likely mean that as well as doing the ITGP series, they might race some of the other great non-ITU events out there – Now that would be great to see! Stew Canberra, ACT AUSTRALIA Aiming for Ironman Australia ‘98

Response:

A quick summary of the winners, sorry no accurate times yet. 1. Greg Welch (Australia)          1. Michellie Jones (Australia) –1:30 to 2:00min.–               2. Barbara Linquist (USA)                                    3. Sue Latshaw (USA)   2. Mike Pigg (USA)                 –10 secs– 3. Greg Thompson((USA) Greg Thompson  passed 7 racers and took control of the bike 2 miles into the bike course.  With 3 miles left of the bike course it was Thompson in front with Welch and Pigg about 10 secs back.   Out of transition onto the run, Thompson, Welch and Pigg were neck and neck.  Thompson surged ahead, but was answered by Welch who pulled out in front of Pigg and Thompson to take control of the front position. Thompson and Pigg went back and forth dukeing it out throughout the whole run.  Pigg got ahead of Thompson with 3 miles left of the 8 mile run on a narrow single track that kept Thompson on his heals.  With 1 mile left Welch was ahead by 1:30 with Pigg in 2nd and Thompson holding a strong 3rd only 5 seconds behind Pigg and they both were flying.  They finished with about the same; Welch, Pigg, Thompson. Barbara Linquist came out of the water with the lead men, with Michellie in second 2:30 back.  Linquist held strong on the bike, and onto the run in first place with Jones 1:30=2:00 min. back.  Jones took the lead near the halfway point onthe run, but Linquist held strong and finished only about 1:30 behind Jones.  Sue Latshaw was a distant 3rd. The BAT (Bay Area Triathlon) Team all had excellent top ten performances: Greg Thompson  3rd overall Pete Kain 7th or 8th overall Kevin Joyce    10th overall Holly Nybo     5th overall Nancy Vallance 6th overall Lauren Alexander…cheering for her teammates on the sidelines following a first place performance at the Maizuru International Duathlon in Japan. Look for these 6 top Athletes to be racing well nationally and internationally.

Response:

1. Greg Welch (Australia)          1. Michellie Jones (Australia) –1:30 to 2:00min.–               2. Barbara Linquist (USA)                                    3. Sue Latshaw (USA)   2. Mike Pigg (USA)                 –10 secs– 3. Greg Thompson((USA) Pigg placed second – where are all of the up & coming young US racers?

Up and coming… -Rolf — Call me IronMac …                         … I tri …                                          … I prefer Macintosh! IMC ‘94 – 14:06:47   IMC ‘95 – 11:58:35    IMC ‘97 – 10:45:00

Response:

        Thanks for the awesome play-by-play reporting.  It felt like I was watching the race (I volunteered at waterstop #2, but they went by so fast…).  Speaking of race coverage, I heard that they were going to air the race sometime.  Anyone know the date, time, and station?                                                                 -Tom

Response:

where are all of the up & coming young US racers?

How about Barb Lindquist and that Greg Thompson guy?  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A quick summary of the winners, sorry no accurate times yet. 1. Greg Welch (Australia)          1. Michellie Jones (Australia) –1:30 to 2:00min.–               2. Barbara Linquist (USA)                                    3. Sue Latshaw (USA) 2. Mike Pigg (USA) –10 secs– 3. Greg Thompson((USA) rest snipped How about those Aussies, eh? I guess this could tie in nicely to the thread(s) awhile ago re: Australian racers, and also to the thread about US racers. Pigg placed second – where are all of the up & coming young US racers?

Yeah!  the Aussies are great!!! Stroke-Stroke, Pat-Pat, Yaawwwn. It seems that the 2 best Veteran Aussies who really race real triathlons love to live in the U.S.; can  you blame them? It seems all the other up and coming Aussies are content doing the Draftathons with weaker fields.  They seem to be the ones supporting the ITU 10k’s the most. What a shame….cherry picking! You’ll see most of the up and coming US Pro’s with integrity for the sport at the real Triathlons. Don’t stew Stew, I appreciate all Triathletes, from all countries, that support real Triathlons including Greg and Michellie. Gregg

Response:

A quick summary of the winners, sorry no accurate times yet. 1. Greg Welch (Australia)          1. Michellie Jones (Australia) –1:30 to 2:00min.–               2. Barbara Linquist (USA)                                    3. Sue Latshaw (USA)   2. Mike Pigg (USA)                 –10 secs– 3. Greg Thompson((USA)

rest snipped How about those Aussies, eh? I guess this could tie in nicely to the thread(s) awhile ago re: Australian racers, and also to the thread about US racers. Pigg placed second – where are all of the up & coming young US racers?

Response:

Question:

Can anyone tell me if the Nike Air Max is worth its $140 price tag.  I found it for $119 here in L.A.  I want to know if its that good of a shoe. Please send responses by e-mail to: –Thanks

Response:

My shoe guy, who is a marathoner of some twenty-plus years of experience, steers his customers away from the current Air Max.  He even stopped carrying it because he received too many complaints that the air bags ruptured.  Has anyone else heard of such quality issues with this shoe? Cameron

Response:

Can anyone tell me if the Nike Air Max is worth its $140 price tag.  I found it for $119 here in L.A.  I want to know if its that good of a shoe. Please send responses by e-mail to: –Thanks

When I say Air Max I mean the New Air Max.  The one that came out in the spring of ‘95.

Response:

Can anyone tell me if the Nike Air Max is worth its $140 price tag.  I found it for $119 here in L.A.  I want to know if its that good of a shoe.

myself i will never buy another nike product. i resent the"revolution" ad, where they idolize 5 college dropout college basketball players, now pro.  Fine for those guys, but what about the millions of mothers who have to deal with kids who *know* they are going to be the next michael jordan, and have another excuse why they don’t have to worry about school. Frank

Response:

My shoe guy, who is a marathoner of some twenty-plus years of experience, steers his customers away from the current Air Max.  He even stopped carrying it because he received too many complaints that the air bags ruptured.  Has anyone else heard of such quality issues with this shoe? Cameron

Yup, I blew through three pair last year. Each pair ruptured about 2 months of 30 mile weeks. Once a pair blew a week before Ventura 12 Ironman and I decided to run in the new pair without socks. As small as the finish line proof (photo) was, you could still see the blood from some of the seven blisters I got, ouch! Lesson one-always wear socks in new shoes Lesson two-don’t spend 140.00 on air — chris davis Everybody dies, but not everyone lives http://www.sfo.com/~hulaman

Response:

I have two pair of the NEW Air Max Triax (BRAND NEW) and they are terrific…a new lacing system, good fore and aft cushioning, good-looking….and about $90.00.  I’ve worn NIKE a long time and these are the best of their shoes I’ve worn. I’m not sure how widely available the shoes are yet (NIKETOWN Chicago will have them in Jan.) but you may want to check them out. We could get an interesting thread going on the NIKE " morality" BTW.  

Response:

Cameron, I am a Clydesdale triathlete, 6′1", 210, and I run in Air Max Triax.  I haven’t had a problem with them in the 4 months that I have been running on them, to the tune of 55 miles a week

Response:

Try Reeboks next time! — Cafe Cyberia!!!! London ENGLAND

Response:

are the Air Max’s worth the $140 price tag?? It depends on what your particular situation is!! I have a pair of the long living Air Pegasus and also the AIR Max. Both have served their purposes. When I stress fractured by shin bone in two places and gained 15 pounds from sitting on my butt for 8 weeks, the Air Max were great for support and stabilization. I never ruptured mine. As I dropped weight, built my shin bone back up and became a stronger runner the Air Max became too much of a shoe. The good old Pegasus has been doing well by me over the last 6 months.Many long time runners I know swear by this shoe and have run in it for years. Unfortunately they plan to change its design next year :<- Hope this helps.

Response:

Cameron, I am a Clydesdale triathlete, 6′1", 210, and I run in Air Max Triax.  I haven’t had a problem with them in the 4 months that I have been running on them, to the tune of 55 miles a week

I am 170-175 and love the Brooks Beast line.  I am currently using the Beast 95.  I tried the Brooks truth, but it seemed a little stiff. The Beast provide good cushion with close to the same support. I used to buy only Airmax, but I can get the Brooks line for 80-90 bucks mail order – beats the $140 for the Air Max in the stores. Mike from Memphis

Response:

Question:

Can we get rid of this no ads thing.

There was a very extensive thread on this newsgroup last, oh, December or January, and the concensus was that anyone who wanted to advertise should clearly indicate in the subject header that the post is an advertisement. The subject header should contain the words "Ad" or "For Sale" or "FS" or something similar. Personally, I have no interest in reading ads on this newsgroup. We are already bombarded with plenty of ads in the back sections of various magazines about triathlons, running, and cycling. On the other hand, if it is an individual trying to sell of some extra gear or components, I don’t mind seeing it on the newsgroup as long as it is labeled as an advertisement. Cathy Corning

Response:

Personally, I have no interest in reading ads on this newsgroup.

Either do I. It was obvious bill katovsky was advertising his product; he got the flames he deserved and  he also probably got the very results he wanted. However, and it almost pains me to say it, the first issue of Multisport Magazine is actually quite good. It’s not really a tri magazine, more of a thinking person’s Competitor, City Sports or Metro Sports type of publication. Good clean layout (though I thought the glossy cover was surprisingly dull for a katovsky project)  with very interesting and well-written articles on various athletes and happenings.  I really liked the Missy Giove piece and the essay about the Casartelli tragedy. It will be interesting to see if the magazine can maintain its quality and its confident, independent voice for the next 5 issues (it will publish 6 times per year)  without having to eventually bend its knee to big advertisers or slowly drift into the chaotic vortex of editorial oblivion. I’m no katovsky cheerleader and this post ain’t no ad…. — JJ

Response:

Marty, that’s a BBS tagline.  I doubt very much that you could buy anything from there.  SINCE THEY DON"T SELL ANYTHING!! Besides, I don’t work for them.  IT’s a mom and pop type of BBS.  (with INternet email access.) idiot.

Well I have now been officially flamed on RST (note the "idiot")!  My life is now complete. — Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://www.iac.net/~miller/triweb.html

Response:

Can we get rid of this no ads thing. I want to know about products that are available and particularly like to be able to contact them. Maybe we could start a r.s.t.ads newsgroup. This is not advertising in the conventional sense because it’s interactive. An advertiser has to be pretty confident to want to use this forum because few repliers will say they like it, but anyone feeling cheated will vent. Jeff   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marty, that’s a BBS tagline.  I doubt very much that you could buy anything from there.  SINCE THEY DON"T SELL ANYTHING!! Besides, I don’t work for them.  IT’s a mom and pop type of BBS.  (with INternet email access.) idiot. Well I have now been officially flamed on RST (note the "idiot")!  My life is now complete. — Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://www.iac.net/~miller/triweb.html

Response:

Dear Multisport Magazine,         I read your post on R.S.T. about a complimentary copy of your         first issue.  Could you send me one? My address is:                         Don Devenney                         16-2981 Craigowan Road                         Victoria,B.C. Canada                         V9B 1N2        Also, how ’bout one of those tattoos you mentioned?                                                      Thanks! —  * SLMR 2.1a * This tagline is umop apisdn

Response:

You bet. Just today, a triathlete swimming in the Pacific Ocean just north was wearing a Multisport tattoo on her arm, and you know what happened. A curious seal bumped into her!  It must have been the tattoo. Reminder to other rst’ers, be the first on the block to have your own multisport racing  decal. just email us. also watch for the magazine soon!!!!

Response:

M M You bet. Just today, a triathlete swimming in the Pacific Ocean just M north M Reminder to other rst’ers, be the first on the block to have your own M multisport racing  decal. just email us. also watch for the magazine Stop advertising.  Advertisements are not allowed on newsgroups. — * OFFLINE 1.58 * Advertisements are public service announcements from the poster’s point of view. — * KMail 3.10m The Wright Place in Baltimore 410-882-4481

Response:

even giving away something free? I thought advertising had to do with selling something. sure, multisport magazine is calling attention to its new splash on the scene; after all, its intention it to attract more people to the sport of triathlon. don’t we all benefit from that? Let’s embrace newness, okay? bill katovsky multisport publisher/editor

Response:

There are already *plenty* of multi-sport magazines. Read the FAQ and follow the rules for posting advertisements.

Response:

: :M :M You bet. Just today, a triathlete swimming in the Pacific Ocean just :M north :M Reminder to other rst’ers, be the first on the block to have your own :M multisport racing  decal. just email us. also watch for the magazine : :Stop advertising.  Advertisements are not allowed on :newsgroups. : :— :* OFFLINE 1.58 * Advertisements are public service announcements from the poster’s point of view. :— :* KMail 3.10m The Wright Place in Baltimore 410-882-4481 : I’m assuming this was in jest, particularly since your signature line has the phone number of your business. Noodle — Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://www.iac.net/~miller/triweb.html

Response:

M M even giving away something free? I thought advertising had to do with M selling something. sure, xxxxxxxxxx magazine is calling attention to M its M new splash on the scene; after all, its intention it to attract more M people to the sport of triathlon. don’t we all benefit from that? M Let’s M embrace newness, okay? LEts embrace the generally accepted guidlines for posting on newsgroups, NO ADS! — * OFFLINE 1.58 * Advertisements are public service announcements from the poster’s point of view. — * KMail 3.10m The Wright Place in Baltimore 410-882-4481

Response:

Question:

Hello,     I’d like to know how late in the fall there are still tri’s that I can     attend in the PA,NY,MD,CT,MA,RI area. This is my first season in a     northern country and I’d like to plan the rest of it. In my country     (Mexico) there are tri’s even in late november but I don’t think that’s     the case around here (brrrrr!).     I checked the Jul-Aug issue of the Mid-Atlantic RACEGUIDE but the list     ends on Sept 26, is that it for the year? I hope not.     I thank in advance for your information.                                               _      (   |   )             Rogelio Macias Ordonez       -o^o-/      Behavioral and Evolutionary Biosciences    /—(___)—           Chandler-Ullman Hall 17     _/ / / _               Lehigh University    <  |  V  |             Bethlehem, PA 18015  USA       | /^ |           Tels (215) 758-5561, 758-5543        | |/                 Fax (215) 974-6467

Response:

But here in Florida the triathlon season runs from early March through late November.  Peak running season is in the winter, and duathlons are year round.

Go ahead, rub it in, Matt… — And so as you hear these words telling you now of my state I tell you to enjoy life I wish I could but it’s too late

Response: