Question:

So I’ve moved to a lighter shoe.  I’ve wondered about the physics of it and just how much of a difference it makes.  The old shoe was 420 grams.  The new one is 350 grams.  That’s about a 17% difference.  So over a 3:30 marathon assuming 180 steps/minute, 37800 steps each have to hoist 70 grams less.  How much energy is this saving, really? (If a train leaves Denver at 60 mph and another leaves Los Angeles at 50 mph…  I hate those questions) — Lorne Sundby

Response:

The following: Shoes Weight becomes more of an efficiency factor when it is added to the extremities, (i.e., the shoes). The addition of 100 grams of weight increases the energy cost by about 1% at moderate speeds. Another study with similar results also showed that added weight had less effect at faster speeds. An additional study found a 2.8% energy saving when using a well cushioned shoe rather than a poorly cushioned one of the same weight. Implications of these findings are in the areas of orthotic devices, light weight trainers and racing flats. The principle of risk vs. gain is important when evaluating these areas. We know many who take out their orthotics when they race; Maybe the weight makes less difference when we are running faster so leaving them in would be better. Running a couple of short races without the devices may not be much risk, but if you are racing frequently or running long distance events the risk of injury may be greater than the small gain in efficiency. Light weight trainers tend to wear out more rapidly and are not known for great support so your biomechanical and financial needs should be investigated before they are chosen. Racing flats give little or no support and tend to lack cushioning. Always the gains from less weight must be weighed against the increased risk of injury. is from a Team Oregon report at: http://www.teamoregon.com/publications/economy.html Ken So I’ve moved to a lighter shoe.  I’ve wondered about the physics of it and just how much of a difference it makes.  The old shoe was 420 grams.  The new one is 350 grams.  That’s about a 17% difference.  So over a 3:30 marathon assuming 180 steps/minute, 37800 steps each have to hoist 70 grams less.  How much energy is this saving, really? (If a train leaves Denver at 60 mph and another leaves Los Angeles at 50 mph…  I hate those questions)

Webmaster Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

Response:

The following: Shoes Weight becomes more of an efficiency factor when it is added to the extremities, (i.e., the shoes). The addition of 100 grams of weight increases the energy cost by about 1% at moderate speeds. Another study with similar results also showed that added weight had less effect at faster speeds. An additional study found a 2.8% energy saving when using a well cushioned shoe rather than a poorly cushioned one of the same weight.

These results are suspect if you look at only the physics involved. Mass is mass and it requires more energy to accelerate to a faster speed than slower. WRT the body the shoe "stops" every time it sets down. More energy  goes into cushioning than comes out and this should reflect in a cushoned vs non cushioned device. So I’ve moved to a lighter shoe.  I’ve wondered about the physics of it and just how much of a difference it makes.  The old shoe was 420 grams.  The new one is 350 grams.  That’s about a 17% difference.  So over a 3:30 marathon assuming 180 steps/minute, 37800 steps each have to hoist 70 grams less.  How much energy is this saving, really?

Thats a 17% difference in the weight of the shoe but  a much smaller percentage when you consider the mass of your entire leg. I’d stick with a safer shoe even if it means giving up the weight of about 70 drops of water. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (If a train leaves Denver at 60 mph and another leaves Los Angeles at 50 mph…  I hate those questions) Webmaster Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

Response:

Lorne, From my own experiences, I’d say 4 ounces, or going from 11 ounce shoes to 7are good for 2 minutes in a 5 mile race, and a little over a minute in a 5k. The biggest difference being, with the heavier shoes, when you wear out, you wear out fast, with the lighter shoes you can just keep running. There are some people that are faster than I am if I wear heavy trainers, but I don’t have much problem with them when I wear flats. But, as pointed out somewhere else, flats don’t have much cushioning, so I add extra insoles to them after they are a few week old. Roger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So I’ve moved to a lighter shoe.  I’ve wondered about the physics of it and just how much of a difference it makes.  The old shoe was 420 grams.  The new one is 350 grams.  That’s about a 17% difference.  So over a 3:30 marathon assuming 180 steps/minute, 37800 steps each have to hoist 70 grams less.  How much energy is this saving, really? (If a train leaves Denver at 60 mph and another leaves Los Angeles at 50 mph…  I hate those questions) — Lorne Sundby

Response:

The addition of 100 grams of weight increases the energy cost by about 1% at moderate speeds.

So in my case, reducing 70 grams per shoe x 2 saves 140 grams or 1.4%?   I wonder: if I was trained up for a 3:30 marathon, wearing shoes each 70 grams lighter, all other things being equal, would that mean I could count on a 1.4% better result, like around 3:27? is from a Team Oregon report at: http://www.teamoregon.com/publications/economy.html

Thanks for the link. — Lorne Sundby

Response:

From my own experiences, I’d say 4 ounces, or going from 11 ounce shoes to 7are good for 2 minutes in a 5 mile race, and a little over a minute in a 5k. The biggest difference being, with the heavier shoes, when you wear out, you wear out fast, with the lighter shoes you can just keep running. There are some people that are faster than I am if I wear heavy trainers, but I don’t have much problem with them when I wear flats. But, as pointed out somewhere else, flats don’t have much cushioning, so I add extra insoles to them after they are a few week old.

What I’ve moved to aren’t flats, just lighter shoes.  Although, I’d like to give racing flats a try.  A couple of track sessions to break them in, then a 5k to really give them a test.  Perhaps next year. Thanks for the insights Roger. — Lorne Sundby

Response:

 How much energy is this saving, really?

One kilo (1000g) * one kilometer = 1 calorie 0.07 kilos (70g) * 42.195km = 2.9 calories = sweet f all Looking at it another way, for a 70kilos person, a 70g weight difference is 70 000g/70g = 0.1% energy gain per shoe = 0.2% overall. Supposing the entire energy gain turns into a time gain (which it won’t), then if you’re currently capable of a 4h0m0s marathon, your new pumps will whisk you to a 4h – (4h * 0.2/100) = 3h59m41s marathon.

Response:

 How much energy is this saving, really?

One kilo (1000g) * one kilometer = 1 calorie 0.07 kilos (70g) * 42.195km = 2.9 calories = sweet f all Looking at it another way, for a 70kilos person, a marathon requires around 3000 calories. A 70g weight difference is 70 000g/70g = 0.1% per shoe.

Response:

 How much energy is this saving, really? One kilo (1000g) * one kilometer = 1 calorie 0.07 kilos (70g) * 42.195km = 2.9 calories = sweet f all Looking at it another way, for a 70kilos person, a 70g weight difference is 70 000g/70g = 0.1% energy gain per shoe = 0.2% overall. Supposing the entire energy gain turns into a time gain (which it won’t), then if you’re currently capable of a 4h0m0s marathon, your new pumps will whisk you to a 4h – (4h * 0.2/100) = 3h59m41s marathon.

Well, it is a little more complicated than that. Anecdotally, as any hiker can tell you – weight on your feet is harder to deal with than weight on your back.  This is why we have backpacks instead of big shoes for carry stuff while hiking (okay, there is a balance and footing issue too!) Certainly adding two pounds to each shoe would have a more significant effect on your time than adding four pounds of body weight. I got a pair of NB 829s (10.8 oz /305g)  last year to see if I could buy a couple of minutes compared to my regular trainers (12.3oz/350g (at size 13, the difference is exaggerated!)).  I have no way of comparing times between races (way too many other variables), but I "felt" like they gave me about 2 minutes over a marathon. It has been nearly 30 years since I really understood physics well, but a few rusty concepts remain. This likely has something to do with the rather short but strong accelerations and deceleration that your foot goes through while running.  As Michael Painter pointed out, your foot is at rest WRT the road during foot strike.  It then accelerates quickly out back behind your butt, stops and turns around and makes a huge acceleration to get back down in front for the next foot strike (oops, a changing frame of reference for the purists, but it doesn’t matter).  As your shoes are out at the extreme ends of your legs, any mass there will have a more significant torsional effect on the energy required for these accelerations as they travel along some sore of ellipse-like path. The rest of your body – especially the thick bits where most of the mass is (torso, and head in my case) are cruising along on a pretty straight line (a little up and down) at a constant speed – so largely just overcoming the drag of the air, and the energy spent in the bouncing.  This is why an important aspect of good form for racing is to minimize that bouncing. As to the heavier cushioned shoes – I just don’t get that.  And I don’t get how or why the weight difference would have a lessor effect at higher speeds.  Any ideas on those? And for those other heavier runners (like me), be careful with injury – lose the weight off your bod first, then look for flats.  Flats may be best for the biomechanically gifted. d

Response:

I got a pair of NB 829s (10.8 oz /305g)

The 829 or 830 line was my first choice for a lighter shoe.  I still plan on grabbing a pair at some point (at a clearance discount) to try them out. And for those other heavier runners (like me), be careful with injury – lose the weight off your bod first, then look for flats.  Flats may be best for the biomechanically gifted.

I’m not biomechanically (or otherwise) gifted.  But I took the weight of the body first – 20 pounds since mid-January.  Hence the interest (and relative safety) of a lighter shoe. And I will try flats some day, too.  The really really light kind. — Lorne Sundby

Response:

what if you run barefoot? Most injuries are caused by shoes. "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

Wouldn’t Mary Decker say that injuries are caused by people NOT wearing shoes?

Response:

Wouldn’t Mary Decker say that injuries are caused by people NOT wearing shoes?

When I pumped her at camp Howe she never complained. "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

Robot, the ONLY thing you’ve ever ‘pumped’ were your bicycle tyres, and you probably couldn’t fully inflate them.

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Robot, the ONLY thing you’ve ever ‘pumped’ were your bicycle tyres,

At least I know how to spell "tires"… "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

what if you run barefoot? Most injuries are caused by shoes.

Wrong. Most injuries are caused by running.

Response:

Wrong. Most injuries are caused by running.

Football injuries too? "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

So I’ve moved to a lighter shoe.  I’ve wondered about the physics of it and just how much of a difference it makes.  The old shoe was 420 grams.  The new one is 350 grams.  That’s about a 17% difference.  So over a 3:30 marathon assuming 180 steps/minute, 37800 steps each have to hoist 70 grams less.  How much energy is this saving, really? (If a train leaves Denver at 60 mph and another leaves Los Angeles at 50 mph…  I hate those questions)

For me, losing around 100 grams gave me 10-20 seconds per km, which matches Roger’s figures. This is a personal experience, and not a scientific experiment. But for science, the researchers has found the secret of the kenyans to the the volume of the lower leg, which is lower for them. Since lower legs means a lot, this can explain why lighter shoes are a good thing.

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Question:

Check CrossTrack

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi , Iam sure would have come up many many times.. yet again. : ) Could anyone suggest a  freeware for logging runs. I searched for some… but I really dont want to pay 45bucks just to keep track of my runs. Regards. Vishwas

Response:

I use the program Runotes…you install it on your hard drive and it has several features that get the job done:  you can get it at it’s website http://pessoal.portoweb.com.br/runnotes/english.htm       Good Luck!!                                     ——Chad—-Keep on Running

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i also use run notes and can recomend it 100% simon

Response:

kicksports.com has a great log, even though it is in beta. It is also a great site in general for running. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Check CrossTrack

I can also recommend Crosstrak. It’s the best piece of loggingsoftware I’ve seen. It has got support for HRM. www.crosstrak.com Regards Torkel

Response:

Does anyone know of any types of log software that works with a PalmPilot?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I use the program Runotes…you install it on your hard drive and it has several features that get the job done:  you can get it at it’s website http://pessoal.portoweb.com.br/runnotes/english.htm       Good Luck!!                                     ——Chad—-Keep on Running

Response:

There’s a $8 shareware application for the Macintosh called Exercise Log. Perform a web search to find the URL for it. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi , Iam sure would have come up many many times.. yet again. : ) Could anyone suggest a  freeware for logging runs. I searched for some… but I really dont want to pay 45bucks just to keep track of my runs. Regards. Vishwas

Response:

Visit the software page on the Runner’s Web. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.kicksports.com/  has a good online running log;  look for the line that says "Beta test our online running log"…  it keeps track of your yearly distance and time, as well as weekly.  Also has good advice for beginning runners like me!  (BTW, that was a suggestion from someone in this ng…  another newbie hooked!  Look for that toaster, Mike!) Pegi Hi , Iam sure would have come up many many times.. yet again. : ) Could anyone suggest a  freeware for logging runs. I searched for some… but I really dont want to pay 45bucks just to keep track of my runs. Regards. Vishwas

Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Mail List Community : http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/RunnersWeb

Response:

Hi , Iam sure would have come up many many times.. yet again. : ) Could anyone suggest a  freeware for logging runs. I searched for some… but I really dont want to pay 45bucks just to keep track of my runs. Regards. Vishwas

  vpandian.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

http://www.kicksports.com/  has a good online running log;  look for the line that says "Beta test our online running log"…  it keeps track of your yearly distance and time, as well as weekly.  Also has good advice for beginning runners like me!  (BTW, that was a suggestion from someone in this ng…  another newbie hooked!  Look for that toaster, Mike!) Pegi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi , Iam sure would have come up many many times.. yet again. : ) Could anyone suggest a  freeware for logging runs. I searched for some… but I really dont want to pay 45bucks just to keep track of my runs. Regards. Vishwas

Response:

Question:

Well I’m probably wrong, or overly cynical, BUT…. I saw this posting up here at the top at about 12:00 noon my time, (Sweden) now I believe that Australia is around 9 hours ahead of us in Europe and the US about 6-7 (NY) hours behind that. That means it was posted at about 21:00 (9pm) local time, or on the 15th… Odd that the post date should be the 16th, couldn’t be deliberate to have it up there for a while? Nah, no way, Phil (I have waaay too little to do) Squire – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After a solid training base, Chris was prepared for a podium result at Race 5 of the St George F1 Series held at Gelong, Mebourne (Australia). In the first and second of the three sprint races, Chris was to continue his bad luck in this series with a flat tyre in the first race and a fall on the cycle leg of the second. However, Chris battled on and completed each of the races to finally finish a well deserved second place in the third after an impressive run leg. View all Chris race results online at, http://www.chrismccormack.com.au/news.html – updated frequently!!

Response:

After a solid training base, Chris was prepared for a podium result at Race 5 of the St George F1 Series held at Gelong, Mebourne (Australia). In the first and second of the three sprint races, Chris was to continue his bad luck in this series with a flat tyre in the first race and a fall on the cycle leg of the second. However, Chris battled on and completed each of the races to finally finish a well deserved second place in the third after an impressive run leg. View all Chris race results online at, http://www.chrismccormack.com.au/news.html – updated frequently!!

Response:

Phil Squire  says… Well I’m probably wrong, or overly cynical, BUT…. I saw this posting up here at the top at about 12:00 noon my time, (Sweden) now I believe that Australia is around 9 hours ahead of us in Europe and the US about 6-7 (NY) hours behind that. That means it was posted at about 21:00 (9pm) local time, or on the 15th… Odd that the post date should be the 16th, couldn’t be deliberate to have it up there for a while? Nah, no way, Phil (I have waaay too little to do) Squire

Of course it could be because his computer isn’t setup correctly and instead of posting the time for 9am local time its put 9pm. AJ (Who’s just waiting for knock-off time) — If swimming is so good for the figure, explain whales Simon Haigh Illawarra Triathlon Club – Australia http://members.xoom.com/ajsimon/index.htm   <—- New web site      

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Question:

It was on the front page even! Probably cuz Mrs. T’s is next weekend. If you have on-line access you might want to check this out. It’s a good news/bad news article…"obsession or inspiration" sort of thing.   Mark

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I thought it was mostly positive.  How many times did they use the phrase Typa A, though?  Pretty light on the "obsessive kooks who spend $3k on a bike to run around in their Speedos" stuff.     Better PR than our s[port has gotten this year(at least here in Illlinois). Scott Hoffman

Response:

Seems to me that the death at Mrs. T’s two years ago and the leptospirosis event this year at Ironhorse consist of the only other real publicity triathlon has gotten in the Chicago area in recent years. I’ll take "type A" any time over the above! –Lee (Tri-hard)

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Question:

(IndyRunr1) writes: It is indeed interesting to note that while thousands of mediocre runners train with complete fixation on a HRM, many of the top runners don’t. Oh no, now look out, you’ve just pissed of the mediocre runners.  ;) I’d say it would possibly help out a NEWBIE, but it is very limited and very overstated in it’s benefits.  Again, my thoughts are a person has thrown away their money by purchasing one.  

Steve’s point was that he was doing exactly what a heart rate monitor would tell him to, and was succesfull with it. That seems a far cry from your suggestion that US athletes do less well because they use heart rate monitors. Rod. The most foolish man may easily ask more than the wisest may ever know.

Response:

I’m aware of the Kenyan training methods bandied around these days. Many training camps openly invite Westerners to join them in their world of running, eating, running, resting, running, and sleeping. As for the Kenyan tempos, very interesting, but if I wanted to do that I would race every week! Obviously I’m far from elite, it might work well for some of our European or US elites though.

Charlie, The beauty of all this is that it works for you and I too. Perhaps even more so. We don’t have all day to train as the full time elites do. Most recreational runners have an hour a day and that’s about it Seiler says that once the base is established, more and more of the training should be done in the 80 – 85% V02 Max range. Therefore instead of going out and plodding through another 45 min run at LSD pace, warm up for 10 min then run for 10 – 20 min run at 80 – 85%, then warm down for 5 min. And racing is not bad either. Just don’t make every race an all out, going for a PB affair. I wanted to know who can tell me what the top Africans are doing. Not the guys who turn up at US races and sweep the places. I’m talking record breakers – what do they do?? Can someone confirm they do not have coaches/assistants logging progress and graphing it out scientifically? Here is an updated list of runners who’s allegedly puke-focussed training (according to IndyRunnr) I would like to know more about: Komen Tergat Geb Wilson Kipketer El Guerrouj Bernard Barmasai

Again from Seiler’s site there is a article on how Geb prepped for the last time the he got the WR in the 10,000(since broken by Tergat). Not sure what the exact pace per lap is, 62sec? Anyway, what he did was start a series of 25 X 400 at that pace and  over a number of weeks he kept cutting down the recovery between 400m repeats until it was  next to nothing. He then knew that he could break the WR. Sounds insane, but obviously it works. Steve Fleck

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You *sure* about that, or just being figurative??? I’m sure Miles, they hooked up 7 HRM to 7 different drivers this year for the race.  I’m waiting on the results.  They say it is unbelieveable how high and hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph.  When I get the feedback, I’ll let you know.  They are great athletes.  This has been known for several years now. Go Pacers    David "IndyRunr"

*LMAO*….great athletes?…..yeah, right behind the Professional Bowlers! ..and exactly how does high heartrate correlate to being a great athlete?  Since good sex causes high heartrates I’ll guess we’ll be seeing horny people on Wheaties Boxes soon!…;) Thom "drives his car to stay in shape" Trimble

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I recall reading an article on Dr. Stephen Seiler’s home page a while back about the Kenyans and how they trained. Of course we have to treat all of this with a grain of salt, but it did seem to make sense and it dovetailed nicely with Dr. Seiler’s reaserach on training. The article said that the Kenyans did a fair amount of base training, usually in very hilly terrain and at moderate altitude. After a month or two of this they would move onto a more quality type of training. According to Seiler, the Kenyan’s do not do interval training as we know it.Much of there hard training more closely resembles what we would consider tempo running – longer sessions(10 – 20 min) at or slighlty below threshold pace. Now for these guys that’s 4:30 mile pace, so they are moving pretty quickly. Seiler’s research revolves around trying to find the optimum level of exertion for the most physiological gain in terms of fitness. What he has determined is that the most gains are made in the 80 – 85 % VO2 max range – a pace that is hard, but not all out i.e. a tempo run. Running at higher levels of exertion than this, does yeild improvments in fitness, but less so to the most important parameters – absolute V02 max and lactate clearence.Perhaps some others have more to add.

I’m aware of the Kenyan training methods bandied around these days. Many training camps openly invite Westerners to join them in their world of running, eating, running, resting, running, and sleeping. As for the Kenyan tempos, very interesting, but if I wanted to do that I would race every week! Obviously I’m far from elite, it might work well for some of our European or US elites though. I wanted to know who can tell me what the top Africans are doing. Not the guys who turn up at US races and sweep the places. I’m talking record breakers – what do they do?? Can someone confirm they do not have coaches/assistants logging progress and graphing it out scientifically? Here is an updated list of runners who’s allegedly puke-focussed training (according to IndyRunnr) I would like to know more about: Komen Tergat Geb Wilson Kipketer El Guerrouj Bernard Barmasai Charlie Williams  http://www.quebec.demon.co.uk/ Remove SMUG_GRIN before replying..

Response:

FOR SALE:  Polar FAVOR HRM<BR       Excellent working order<BR       $50.00 (I’ll pay shipping)

hahaha, good one Bill.   I must admit I have very strong feelings on this, HRM and V02Max stuff.  I to was fooled years ago by the science of the sport.  Things the Kenyans, or the rest of the world don’t need or use, things Pre, Rogers, Wattles, etc., etc. never needed and were successful do to hard work.   It gets me to see these US coachs tell the US runners they can run half (65mpw) of what the rest of the world does (120+mpw) and still be competitive with the world by using sceince rather than hard work.   I’m also tired of seeing people say oh well they’re African so it’s in their blood.  This is racist and Pippig, Slaney, Kennedy (to some degree) and others, plus the Germans, Mexicans, Asians, etc., have proven this wrong.  It’s hard work, lots of miles and hard speed sessions, which a lot of Americans or other runners refuse to do.  Not to say they (US runners) don’t work and train hard, but not hard enough.  RW has put training programs of elite runners in their mag for some time now, and you can see where people just won’t put in the long hard weekly mileage anymore.   I do know that the Kenyans have been TESTED for HR and VO2Max but again I know of none who TRAIN or RUN this way, although some may and I’m unaware.  We Americans just need to run and train harder and at a higher level, with better coaching.  I like the idea that Bob Kennedy is at least willing to try, most US runners aren’t.    David "IndyRunr"

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David, It is indeed interesting to note that while thousands of mediocre runners train with complete fixation on a HRM, many of the top runners don’t.I have trained with many top ranked runners, triathletes and cross-country skiers over the years in my country, and few of them trained with a HRM. For some reason I have a difficult time seeing Dan Komen standing on the side of the track with a HRM, after doing a hard interval waiting for his HR to come back down into the "zone" before he does the next one. I do think that there is a use for HRM for the new runner. For the person who has no concept of pace or level of exertion. Out of interest, I started using one occasionally this winter( I won a HRM in race).I had trained and raced very well(top ranked triathlete locally and nationally) for many years. It was interesting for me to wear the HRM for some of my benchmark workouts on the bike and the run – the long session, the tempo session, the interval workout. What I was finding was that all along I had been doing the right workouts at the right level of intensity, without a HRM. The long days and  the easy days were right in the zone that they should be and so were the tempo  and interval work outs. I wore the HRM in a few races and sure enough, my racing HR correllated well to my specific threshold for various distances. My point: Over time, if you know your body well enough, as I am sure top runners do, you will know what "easy" is and what "hard" is with out a HR. Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many people can, RW stayed with the Kenyans and wrote an article on their training a few months back, RT just did one too, Bob Kennedy trains and works out with them.  Face the facts, these guys win by training and running hard, not wasting their money on HRM’s or V02Max charts.  They just run hard till they puke.  :)  Try it and see how much better of a runner you’ll become.  And save your money from worthless gadgets, yet make money at races from hard work.  :)   Get rid of the science and these weak US coaches, and bust these wimpy US runners butts.  I’d say Uta, Tegla etc.,  none of these people train with this crap.  I don’t know about everyone up front, but I’d put money on it.  Nothing I’ve ever read or seen shows this in their training regiment.  Again I’ve worked out and ran with some of the top runners in the world, NONE use HRM’s.    David "IndyRunr"

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It is indeed interesting to note that while thousands of mediocre runners train with complete fixation on a HRM, many of the top runners don’t.

Oh no, now look out, you’ve just pissed of the mediocre runners.  ;) I’d say it would possibly help out a NEWBIE, but it is very limited and very overstated in it’s benefits.  Again, my thoughts are a person has thrown away their money by purchasing one.      David "IndyRunr"

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Charlie, I recall reading an article on Dr. Stephen Seiler’s home page a while back about the Kenyans and how they trained. Of course we have to treat all of this with a grain of salt, but it did seem to make sense and it dovetailed nicely with Dr. Seiler’s reaserach on training. The article said that the Kenyans did a fair amount of base training, usually in very hilly terrain and at moderate altitude. After a month or two of this they would move onto a more quality type of training. According to Seiler, the Kenyan’s do not do interval training as we know it.Much of there hard training more closely resembles what we would consider tempo running – longer sessions(10 – 20 min) at or slighlty below threshold pace. Now for these guys that’s 4:30 mile pace, so they are moving pretty quickly. Seiler’s research revolves around trying to find the optimum level of exertion for the most physiological gain in terms of fitness. What he has determined is that the most gains are made in the 80 – 85 % VO2 max range – a pace that is hard, but not all out i.e. a tempo run. Running at higher levels of exertion than this, does yeild improvments in fitness, but less so to the most important parameters – absolute V02 max and lactate clearence.Perhaps some others have more to add. Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But if we’re talking about the top echelons of world class running, are we *sure* that these guys don’t have access to, and *use* scientific profiling to aid in their training ??? I am highly sceptical of anyone who says "The Kenyans do it this way, so that’s what we should do!" Who in all honesty can tell me that they have intimate details of the year-round training schedules of Komen, Tergat, Kipketer, and Geb (yeah I know – he’s Ethiopean)? There are elite coaches who would kill for that piece of intelligence! (BTW: If anyone really does know even a rumour of what Kipketer does, email me Charlie Williams  http://www.quebec.demon.co.uk/ Remove SMUG_GRIN before replying..

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Get rid of the science and these weak US coaches, and bust these wimpy US runners butts.

Harsh words indeed… Care to name names regarding the "weak" and the "wimps" ??? Again I’ve worked out and ran with some of the top runners in the world, NONE use HRM’s.

For ‘ordinary’ runners of wide ranging ability I’d say that HRM’s are worth careful consideration. By the time you get up to a World Class ranking I think things are a bit beyond a Polar Beat. Let’s not mix apples and pears. For ’science’ (in the guise of Sports Medicine) being used to help direct the training of a World Class runners, consider the likes of O’Sullivan and Radcliffe. Making the best use of all the ‘white coats’ can offer PLUS training like animals.   Miles —  "Each day that I run I have to accept the reality   of who I am that day" – The Penguin Chronicles Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  if you prefer to reply by email

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You *sure* about that, or just being figurative??? They say it is unbelieveable how high and hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph.

Sure is. I would never have guessed you could get near to MHR. Elevated HR sure, but 90+%, wow. Maybe, as suggested by Mark, the G-forces play a significant role here. Anyway, this is now drifting dangerously off-topic, so I’ll now withdraw from the thread.   Miles —  "Each day that I run I have to accept the reality   of who I am that day" – The Penguin Chronicles Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  if you prefer to reply by email

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As far as HR it is overrated as far as running anyway.  These people using HRM’s are throwing away their money in my opinion.

Fair enough. But just consider, would *you* be interested in an HRM, even for just occasional use, if you could get one for, say 20 USD??? Unfortunately, they don’t cost 20 USD!!! But the principle is that the info they provide does have some value. But not, for you, in the 80-280 USD range. It’s hard work and training that pays off

Agreed. An HRM can’t do the training for you, it’s nothing but a dumb tool. not science, HRM or VO2Max crap.

But can you use an HRM to more efficiently direct your training?? That’s why Kenyans kick our butts.

Now that’s moving over into the ranks of the elite. I don’t suppose strapping on a Polar Beat is going to help Haille Gebreselassie very much!!! But if we’re talking about the top echelons of world class running, are we *sure* that these guys don’t have access to, and *use* scientific profiling to aid in their training ???   Miles —  "Each day that I run I have to accept the reality   of who I am that day" – The Penguin Chronicles Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  if you prefer to reply by email

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Fitness isn’t necessarily an absolute number.  It means completing average exertions with a minimum of tiring, and extend the limits of peak exertions.  When I am very fit- i.e. used to 90 minute runs- my heart rate after a substantiually shorter run- say 60 minutes- will return to its resting rate in a minute. A sport I am not fit for, i.e. haven’t trained, may tire me relatively quickly. For example, I don’t bike that much, so an hour is tiring.

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Not to mention a bit of adrenaline from the excitement.<BR If I threaten you with a loaded gun, your pulse rate will be pretty high even<BR if <BR you are too frightened to run.<

Rod, true, I was a cop for 6 years, during a high speed chase, or going into a dark building at night with your gun ready, hoping the best man won, got the herart rate up in your throat.  What an adrendaline rush, along with nerves.    David "IndyRunr"

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You *sure* about that, or just being figurative??? They say it is unbelieveable how high and hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph. Sure is. I would never have guessed you could get near to MHR. Elevated HR sure, but 90+%, wow. Maybe, as suggested by Mark, the G-forces play a significant role here. Anyway, this is now drifting dangerously off-topic, so I’ll now withdraw from the thread.

Not if it stays in the area of whether a high heart rate is an actual indicator of fitness. In itself, it isn’t. As Rod pointed out, very unfit people reach their MHR quite easily. Now, I do know that many drivers work out quite regularly. On the other hand, many don’t. Both groups are successful.  Even in his prime, you’d be pretty hard pressed to call A.J. Foyt "fit." But he was quite successful against younger, fitter drivers. I’m not sure there is any correlation between fitness and driving ability, tho I’d suspect fitness would come into play positively in the longer distance races. Mike "TriBop" Tennent http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/ WebRunner Running My Model Railroad ‘98 Ironman Canada IronVirgins Site

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Guan-Yow Ho) writes: This is going to be a bit off topic, but the question was sparked by the comment above. When someone is very fit, is it the case that the person’s heart rate can increase at a short amount of time (i.e., as soon as physical exertion is required) but that person’s heart rate also decreases rapidly in a short amount of time as soon as the exercise is done. (I hope my question isn’t confusing!)

Someone’s coming next week to talk at one of the meetings I organise (Andy Edwards of Sheffield Hallam University) about the transients in VO2 in sprint versus endurance trained athletes. I may have the answer then… If you do a plot of work against heart rate for incremental work loads (ie progressively jack up the work), the fitter you get, the further to the right the curve goes, ie for a given amount of work, the pulse is lower. In that sense it’s harder to get your pulse up to a given amount when fit. However, if you just blast off at a high work rate, I’m not entirely sure whose heart rate will level off first; the fit or the unfit. I suspect it may still be the unfit, but I could well be wrong. Roll on Andy…. Rod. The most foolish man may easily ask more than the wisest may ever know.

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But if we’re talking about the top echelons of world class running, are we *sure* that these guys don’t have access to, and *use* scientific profiling to aid in their training ???

I am highly sceptical of anyone who says "The Kenyans do it this way, so that’s what we should do!" Who in all honesty can tell me that they have intimate details of the year-round training schedules of Komen, Tergat, Kipketer, and Geb (yeah I know – he’s Ethiopean)? There are elite coaches who would kill for that piece of intelligence! (BTW: If anyone really does know even a rumour of what Kipketer does, email me Charlie Williams  http://www.quebec.demon.co.uk/ Remove SMUG_GRIN before replying..

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[snip] Get rid of the science and these weak US coaches, and bust these wimpy US runners butts.  I’d say Uta, Tegla etc.,  none of these people train with this crap.  I don’t know about everyone up front, but I’d put money on it.  Nothing I’ve ever read or seen shows this in their training regiment.  Again I’ve worked out and ran with some of the top runners in the world, NONE use HRM’s.   David "IndyRunr"

FOR SALE:  Polar FAVOR HRM            Excellent working order            $50.00 (I’ll pay shipping)

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 Possibly more relevant from the fitness point of view was that apparently : Mick Jagger quite frequently attains his max heart rate during the more : energetic bits of the Stone’s stage show. : Of course, you could argue it’s because he’s very unfit that he gets his heart : rate up so easily; but then again you could say the same about those : drivers. : Rod. : The most foolish man may easily ask more than the wisest may ever know. This is going to be a bit off topic, but the question was sparked by the comment above. When someone is very fit, is it the case that the person’s heart rate can increase at a short amount of time (i.e., as soon as physical exertion is required) but that person’s heart rate also decreases rapidly in a short amount of time as soon as the exercise is done. (I hope my question isn’t confusing!) Conal

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IndyCar drivers are some of the best athletes in the world.  Watching these guys and their strict workout regiments.  And to know that several of these guys use RUNNING to help them stay in shape.   To know that their HR is maxed, and maybe higher than any other athletes, for the time they are in the cockpit.  We’ll miss seeing these guys on the roads and on the tracks here in Indy.  See you next May guys.  Gods speed and be safe. Congratulations to Team Cheever and Eddie for winning the greatest race in the world, The Indy 500.  Eddie, great job. Jim Guthrie, get well soon. And Go Pacers.    David "IndyRunr"

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To know that their HR is maxed, and maybe higher than any other athletes, for the time they are in the cockpit.

You *sure* about that, or just being figurative???   Miles —  "Each day that I run I have to accept the reality   of who I am that day" – The Penguin Chronicles Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  if you prefer to reply by email

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You *sure* about that, or just being figurative???

I’m sure Miles, they hooked up 7 HRM to 7 different drivers this year for the race.  I’m waiting on the results.  They say it is unbelieveable how high and hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph.  When I get the feedback, I’ll let you know.  They are great athletes.  This has been known for several years now. Go Pacers    David "IndyRunr"

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You *sure* about that, or just being figurative???

IndyRunr1 I’m sure Miles, they hooked up 7 HRM to 7 different drivers this year for the IndyRunr1 race.  I’m waiting on the results.  They say it is unbelieveable how high and IndyRunr1 hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph.  When I get the IndyRunr1 feedback, I’ll let you know.  They are great athletes.  This has been known for IndyRunr1 several years now. The reports I have heard say the high heart rate is simply to overcome the G forces present in the race car.  While the high heat is a factor, it does not correlate to a level of exertion you would experience "exercising" (i.e. 180 bpm in race car does not equal 180 bpm while running intervals). mark.

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it does not correlate to a level of exertion you would<BR experience "exercising" (i.e. 180 bpm in race car does not equal 180<BR bpm while running intervals).

I don’t know, maybe a lot is do to adendaline too.  But these guys are great athletes.  But it’s still very very high and maybe more than other sports players. As far as HR it is overrated as far as running anyway.  These people using HRM’s are throwing away their money in my opinion.  It’s hard work and training that pays off not science, HRM or VO2Max crap.  That’s why Kenyans kick our butts.  I’ve run and trained with some Kenyans, none wear HRM’s.  It’s hard work that pays off.  This science stuff along with weak coaches and low mileage, little speed work is killing the US athletes in competition.    David "IndyRunr"

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IndyRunr1 As far as HR it is overrated as far as running anyway.  These people using IndyRunr1 HRM’s are throwing away their money in my opinion. When I was doing two a days (running a 10km commute in the morning and night) I found it helpful to reign myself in (i.e. avoid overtraining). I could have done this without the HRM but it made me more vigilant about keeping tabs on myself. IndyRunr1  It’s hard work and training IndyRunr1 that pays off not science, HRM or VO2Max crap.  That’s why Kenyans kick our IndyRunr1 butts.  I’ve run and trained with some Kenyans, none wear IndyRunr1 HRM’s. I think it is foolish to avoid the role of science in training… but I agree with your general sentiment that it is 99% hard work.  The 1% of knowing where to apply that hard work is critical though. IndyRunr1 It’s hard IndyRunr1 work that pays off.  This science stuff along with weak coaches and low IndyRunr1 mileage, little speed work is killing the US athletes in competition. I think blaming science is too easy… if the pool of talent was there things would be different but why would anyone want to be a distance runner in North America?  The money?  The adulation from passers by (usually in the form of complimentary beer bottles ?     mark.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IndyRunr1 I’m sure Miles, they hooked up 7 HRM to 7 different drivers this year for the IndyRunr1 race.  I’m waiting on the results.  They say it is unbelieveable how high and IndyRunr1 hard these guys heart rates are while driving 220+ mph.  When I get the IndyRunr1 feedback, I’ll let you know.  They are great athletes.  This has been known for IndyRunr1 several years now. The reports I have heard say the high heart rate is simply to overcome the G forces present in the race car.  While the high heat is a factor, it does not correlate to a level of exertion you would experience "exercising" (i.e. 180 bpm in race car does not equal 180 bpm while running intervals).

Not to mention a bit of adrenaline from the excitement. If I threaten you with a loaded gun, your pulse rate will be pretty high even if you are too frightened to run. Possibly more relevant from the fitness point of view was that apparently Mick Jagger quite frequently attains his max heart rate during the more energetic bits of the Stone’s stage show. Of course, you could argue it’s because he’s very unfit that he gets his heart rate up so easily; but then again you could say the same about those drivers. Rod. The most foolish man may easily ask more than the wisest may ever know.

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Question:

To whom it may concern: I am very interested in buying someone’s used computrainer. . . if they are interested in selling. . . . Please contact by phone or e-mail. . . Thanks in Advance! Mike Flynn

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USA Triathlon has a number of CompuTrainers for sale. If interested, contact Steve Locke USA Triathlon

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Question:

I own a Litespeed Ultimate with Ultegra (1997) components and Spinergy wheels.  I’d like to get the weight reduced by 1 lb. to 1.5 lbs. Suggestions on whow to get the most "bang for the buck" in doing so.

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I own a Litespeed Ultimate with Ultegra (1997) components and Spinergy wheels.  I’d like to get the weight reduced by 1 lb. to 1.5 lbs. Suggestions on whow to get the most "bang for the buck" in doing so. A pound on your bike is basically equal to a pound on your body. So…  the best way to lose the 1.5 pounds is to workout a little more ; ) Later, Mark Linenberg

That’s essentially what I thought, but got into all these discussions about rolling weight versus body weight, etc.  After the holidays, I should restate my question as follows: how can I best lose 5 – 7 lbs. on my bike, my ass, my thighs or my midsection?

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I own a Litespeed Ultimate with Ultegra (1997) components and Spinergy wheels.  I’d like to get the weight reduced by 1 lb. to 1.5 lbs. Suggestions on whow to get the most "bang for the buck" in doing so.

A pound on your bike is basically equal to a pound on your body. So…  the best way to lose the 1.5 pounds is to workout a little more ; ) Later, Mark Linenberg

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I own a Litespeed Ultimate with Ultegra (1997) components and Spinergy wheels.  I’d like to get the weight reduced by 1 lb. to 1.5 lbs. Suggestions on whow to get the most "bang for the buck" in doing so. A pound on your bike is basically equal to a pound on your body. So…  the best way to lose the 1.5 pounds is to workout a little more ; ) Later, Mark Linenberg That’s essentially what I thought, but got into all these discussions about rolling weight versus body weight, etc.  After the holidays, I should restate my question as follows: how can I best lose 5 – 7 lbs. on my bike, my ass, my thighs or my midsection?

Easy, get on that "heavy" bike and ride it. "Sheesh, it’s titanium already, how much lighter do you want?", said he, with a sarcastic and jealous tone. Stacy Hills Reston, VA

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If I remember there was an article about this awhile back in Triathlete. . .although it may have had to do with how to be more aero but I think it was both.  The article talked about the speed savings versus the relative cost for certain gear. Later, Michael

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A titanium bottom bracket is a quick weight saver.  I personally like to use tons of carbon fiber components.  But then, I’m kinda of a bike nut.  I like messing around with my bikes set-up almost as much as riding it. Can I get a carbon fiber aerobar system yet? "I’ve got a hardon for carbon"

t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I own a Litespeed Ultimate with Ultegra (1997) components and Spinergy wheels.  I’d like to get the weight reduced by 1 lb. to 1.5 lbs. Suggestions on whow to get the most "bang for the buck" in doing so.

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I own a Litespeed Ultimate with Ultegra (1997) components and Spinergy wheels.  I’d like to get the weight reduced by 1 lb. to 1.5 lbs.

Carry one less water bottle.

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Get rid of the STI shifters, and mount Grip-Shifts or bar-end shifters on your aerobars. Use the Dia-Compe reverse-pull brake levers on your cowhorns. Get rid of the dual-pivot brakes and use the cane creek single-pivot brakes. All that should take off a pound-plus. I own a Litespeed Ultimate with Ultegra (1997) components and Spinergy wheels.  I’d like to get the weight reduced by 1 lb. to 1.5 lbs. Suggestions on whow to get the most "bang for the buck" in doing so.

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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A titanium bottom bracket is a quick weight saver.  I personally like to use

tons of carbon fiber components.  But then, I’m kinda of a bike nut. pssst…..hey Karl…a TON of carbon fiber components weighs about the same as a TON of steel parts…but dont tell everyone else ok?! greg nelson      RST-Maryland  (Montgomery County)              02:30:00      <—– VISUALIZATION TRAINING              __O__/ ::::::COLUMBIA TRI  98::::::              __//\                    /

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Actually, there was an article in Bicycling Magazine (I believe a couple of months ago) on the best bang for the buck in taking weight off your bike.  The article compares various component upgrades (i.e., lighter components), including the weight saved, and the cost for the lighter component. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I remember there was an article about this awhile back in Triathlete. . .although it may have had to do with how to be more aero but I think it was both.  The article talked about the speed savings versus the relative cost for certain gear. Later, Michael

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Question:

Dates required for triathlon and mini-triathlon events in UK and Ireland Please help!!!!!!! e-mail response appreciated.

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Dates required for triathlon and mini-triathlon events in UK and Ireland Please help!!!!!!! e-mail response appreciated.

Dates REQUIRED?  Sounds like an interesting race series!  Can I just bring my wife?

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Question:

Hi there,         from what I have heard these are the results if some what brief and lacking detail on the BUBA Bath Triathlon (1.5km swim, 40 km bike, 10 km run). The big show down was between Spencer Smith and Simon Lessing. Simon won by 50 seconds, he drafted SS in swim, hung to him (not by drafting, just tactical riding) and then with a pychlogical advantage beat Simon out ran SS to go on and win. Nobody has yet to out run Simon, so if you see him run past you know are toast! Rainer Mueller was third with Jimmy R (sorry can’t spell his second name)(the dude with the graffiti on his bike) 4th. I believe Wes Hobson dropped out on the run. Michelli Jones won the womens devision,not that hard since Carol Montgomery or Karen Symers were there. Thats about it, I’am Chris Carpenter and this r.s.t UK News. P.S I guess I can chalk up the first posted r.s.t Racing Team result for the U.K. I did the Adur Valley Trithlon at the weekend, came third! Not bad for a duathlete type chap. I had some nice pink and purple Saucony kit printed up with the r.s.t logo so I guess it counts.

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Sorry, But Wes was at home in Boulder resting and training during the Bath Triathlon.  Look for Wes at Laguna Phuket and Padre Island, TX.

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Question:

Hi! In many endurance sports exists a one or two hour record. Most popualr it’s in cycling. Is there such a record in Tri (1h = 20min each event; 3h = 1h each event)? Would be interesting I think. Stefan

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    I have a mountain bike that I would like to use in a triathlon. Does anyone have suggestions on little things I can to make it quicker on the road?

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