Question:

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] In article Read the whole thing. We deal with hyponatremia on a daily basis, but not too much with exercise induced, as seen in the athlete. See more of this in the summer/early spring in spurts. Fluid restrictions are tough on those with water intoxication, especially in the psychiatric patient. You will find them with their heads under a drip, drip,leaky faucet. Sad. I have seen seizures _secondary_ to hyponatremia.  It was not in an athlete. I was a bit distressed reading the young woman’s experience in the Rock and Roll Marathon. Her "confusion", IMO, is a late sign. They should have moved her to the nearest emergency room for evaluation. Just the fact she did not improve, is enough to be referred on to a higher level of care.

Actually Laurie, the letter quoted was not from someone at the Rock n Roll Marathon,  it was quoted in the medical manual for the care of marathoners  but occured at another marathon. Ozzie

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Read the whole thing. We deal with hyponatremia on a daily basis, but not too much with exercise induced, as seen in the athlete. See more of this in the summer/early spring in spurts. Fluid restrictions are tough on those with water intoxication, especially in the psychiatric patient. You will find them with their heads under a drip, drip,leaky faucet. Sad. I have seen seizures _secondary_ to hyponatremia.  It was not in an athlete. I was a bit distressed reading the young woman’s experience in the Rock and Roll Marathon. Her "confusion", IMO, is a late sign. They should have moved her to the nearest emergency room for evaluation. Just the fact she did not improve, is enough to be referred on to a higher level of care. I enjoyed your read Ozzie. Laurie-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At the medical briefing for the Medical Team at the Rock and Roll Marathon, the issue of Hyponatremia was explained.  They mentioned this was especially true for runners who would be out on the course for 5 hours or longer.  At the medical aid stations they were passing out pretzels in order to assist runners get their levels of sodium.  They won’t use salt tablets as they don’t dissolve quickly enough. "… I began feeling bad after the race and went to one of the medical tents at the finish.  they put me on a cot and gave me water thinking I was dehydrated.  I was nauseated and dizzy and confused.  When I couldn’t keep down the water, they gave me ice." "I spent about an hour in the tent and did not improve.  They put me in one of those green cars (like a golf cart and took me to where my husband was waiting with the car.  Once I was home, I continued to go downhill.  At 3:30 (3 hous post race) I went to the hospital.  There they discovered I had hyuponatremia (low Sodium).  My level upon arriving at the hospital was 122.  The doctor told me that under 120 is when seizures and coma can occur.  I spent the night, and half the  next day in the hospital with an IV of sodium." "…I had read about it baefore and remember asking for pretzels or something with salt in the text.  But, they didn’t have anything and did not even suspect my problem.  If they had, they would not have made it worse by giving me water and ice.  It also seems that after an hour in the tent, with no improvement, they might have considered a problem other than dehydration. …" I have a severe problem. Yesterday, with the Kona Marathon 2 weeks away, I did my last long run. I became nauseated at about mile 16, with chills and a cold sweat associated with the nausea. Capillary refill was excellent and my radial pulse was fine. It was warmer than usual, but I kept my fluids down to 4 oz. every 20 min. Just like after the Pittsburgh Marathon, I threw up everything in my stomach about an hour after the workout. I have gotten nauseated after every workout or race of 16 or more miles. I have no chance left between now and Kona to try out a new strategy. The only thing I noticed was that during the 22 mile workout, I sat down at the 11 mile mark for about a half hour and ate a small Freeze at the Tastee Freez. In other words, pace may be part of the problem. Based on my 5, 10, and 21.1K races, I should finish the marathon in 5 hours. I finished Pittsburgh in 5:59;41, although the first 16 miles were at an 11:10 pace or so. Kona starts at 5:30 am local time to help avoid the heat. It’s hillier than Pittsburgh’s Marathon. So any strategy should put the hardest running early in the marathon, which is bad strategy normally. Any ideas, short of switching to the half-marathon? Rob Rob, First your post from last November: Today, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette published an article about someone who ran in the marathon relay and collapsed from heat stroke. It’s a good article and gives you something to think about. I’m glad the Post-Gazette chose this to be one of their on-line articles. The URL is: http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20001124marathonmain2.asp Next, some of my thoughts on heat exhaustion: Stand in front of a fan until the sweat evaporates which means that your body has cooled down enough…because you’re not sweating anymore. Water is the fastest heat dissipator.  When the moisture in the air(humidity) is high, the evaporation process which does the cooling down cannot take place as readily. (The billows of what look like smoke at the take off of the space shuttle, are really billows of steam.  They flood the base of the platform with water to dissipate the heat so that it won’t crack the concrete launch pad. This is why young cross country runners or young runners in a 5K race can get heat stroke in such a short distance.  If you race fast for a mile in hot humid weather, the sweat does not evaporate so that the body is not cooled.  The core temperature begins to rise as the blood is not cooled as it travels to the body surface.  The body temperature rises even more as the youngster pushes into the 2nd mile.  When the body temperature gets above 105 and can push up to 107, the sweat reflex stops, the kidneys shut down and brain damage can occur as the brain is cooked in the undissapated heat. This is also why people can go into heat stroke hours after a marathon when they haven’t hydrated well or sat out in the sun because they had the chills…(a sign of heat exhaustion) If you’ve been to the Grand Canyon this year, you see numerous warnings about the dangers of hiking down the canyon in the heat of the day and without enough water.  Last year at least 4 people died of heat stroke. And finally a great article on HYPONATREMIA IN SPORT: Merv’s Competitive Running Forum Hyponatremia: (long article) Posted By: billy fanstone HYPONATREMIA IN SPORT: SYMPTOMS AND PREVENTION RT# 12 / Volume 4 (1993), Number 2 Table of Contents of all the Sports Science Exchange Roundtable articles. Participants: E. Randy Eichner, M.D. Professor of Medicine Director, Special Hematology  Laboratory University of Oklahoma Health Science Center Oklahoma City, OK Ethan Nadel, Ph.D. Director, John B. Pierce Laboratory Professor, Departments of  Epidemiology & Public Health and Cellular & Molecular Physiology Yale University School of Medicine New Haven, CT Robert Laird, M.D., FAAP Medical Director Ironman Triathlon World Championship Kailua-Kona, HI Tim Noakes, M.D. Professor of Exercise & Sports Science Director, Medical Research Council and Bioenergetics of Exercise Research Unit University of Cape Town Cape Town, South Africa Doug Hiller, M.D. Honolulu, HI Introduction Exercise-induced hyponatremia, or "water intoxication", is a relatively new issue in the mindset of most sports medicine physicians, researchers, and athletes. However, the first hyponatremia study was published 80 years ago, and numerous reports exist in the medical literature of psychiatric patients dying of complications of hyponatremia induced by compulsive water drinking. As the number of endurance and ultraendurance athletic events have grown during the past decade, so too have periodic reports of hyponatremic athletes developing seizures, slipping into comas, and dying. Although there is disagreement among sports health professionals regarding the causes, frequency of occurrence, preventive measures, and treatments of hyponatremia, there is universal agreement as to the potential life-threatening nature of the disorder. The Gatorade Sports Science Institute spoke with a number of sports medicine physicians and scientists who have studied the disorder, or have treated hyponatremic athletes. Their responses to our questions follow. How prevalent is hyponatremia among athletes? Eichner: The incidence of hyponatremia is unclear, and varies widely among studies. Part of the problem is definition; some studies include mild cases, others severe cases (e.g., serum sodiums under 130 mEq/liter). Also, as race conditions vary, so does the prevalence of hyponatremia. For example, I know that Dr. Hiller and Dr. Noakes have reported a rather high incidence of hyponatremia following some races, yet in other races the incidence of hyponatremia has been reported to be zero or nearly zero. Regardless, at least for races at marathon distance and beyond, I think that hyponatremia is common enough to raise concern and, in some cases, severe enough to threaten life. Hiller: In our studies, hyponatremia is very rare in races lasting less than four hours in length, and becomes more frequently evident in races longer than eight hours. This is exacerbated by high temperatures and a high intensity of exercise. We found that 29% of the athletes in the 1984 Ironman Triathlon were hyponatremic at the end of the race. In the laboratory, we have produced hyponatremia in 6-8 hours. Laird: In the early to mid-1980’s, up to 70% of the athletes who required IV’s after the Hawaiian Ironman race were hyponatremic. As information about the existence and dangers of hyponatremia was gathered and made available to the athletes, the incidence of hyponatremia among triathletes receiving IV’s at the Ironman has dropped to 20% over the last several years. Noakes: The development of hyponatremia requires that fluid must be ingested at high rates for many hours, probably for at least 4-6 hours. Hence the condition will be extremely uncommon in

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Question:

Any good Olymplics triathlon web site? Please suggest

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Any good Olymplics triathlon web site? Please suggest

Sure… Go to http://www.nbcolympics.com, and click on "Triathlon" in the drop-down menu there… You will arrive at a Web site with interesting Triathlon info to include the following article (which was an Australian Associated Press article which appeared in various newspapers in Australia to include on page 3 of the Sydney Morning Herald on July 14th, 2000): http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/tr/2000/07/13shark.html Forwarded: I received private email asking exactly when "Sharks: Deep Danger" is going to broadcast this weekend on the Fox News Channel: http://www.foxnews.com/channel/index.sml On Saturday (September 16th, 2000), "Sharks: Deep Danger" airs  at 12:00 Noon, at 5:00 PM and at 7:00 PM on the west coast of the USA (add three hours to each listing to get the east coast broadcast times as there is only one satellite feed for the Fox News Channel in the USA). On Sunday (September 17th), "Sharks: Deep Danger" airs on the west coast at 7:00 PM and at 1:00 AM (add three hours to get the east coast broadcast times) the following morning (which is the morning of Monday, September 18th). "Sharks: Deep Danger" also includes the video of the great white shark attack on the surfer off South Africa.. "Discovery News" airs on the Discovery Channel this Friday (September 15th)at 9:00 PM and then at 12:00 Midnight. "Discovery News" then repeats the next day on Saturday (September 16th) at 12:00 Noon on the Discovery Channel… Video of the Shark POD and Sharksafe in action is included in "Sharks: Deep Danger" and in "Discovery News" as well. "Sharks: Deep Danger" also mentions how sharks are being overfished… Best regards, Jim Morris Los Angeles

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Any good Olymplics triathlon web site? Please suggest

if it’s the races you’re interested in, we’re going to try to do live coverage as the race occurs, starting with the women’s race.  i have no idea how it’s going to go.  we’ll see if we have any luck.  this depends on cell phones on the course working properly, our ability to hear over the crowd, and all that stuff. www.triathlonlive.com it should be an interesting women’s race, tactically.  hacket, harrop, and taormina all have good draws in the swim, and may get a nice break going.  kempt-arendt has an outside draw, and it’ll be a big boost to the first girls if kempt-arendt can get herself over and onto the feet of the taormina, et al, as kempt-arendt is a good cyclist.  gutierrez has an outside draw as well — i think it’s close to kempt-arendt, and that’s the pair of feet on which to swim if you’re jennifer. i think that’s jennifer’s best chance. don norcross said in today’s san diego union that michellie is "expected to win."  others, me included, think this might be won from the front.   (go sheila.)  that would be an upset.  michellie has won on this course before, and of course carol is going to be very hard to beat. slowman — To get random signatures put text files into a folder called

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Thanks guys,  I think I am going to rent the movie this weekend. Ray

| Ahem, the proper response is "Don’t get hot and flu-ustered – use a | touch of mustard." |

| | OK, OK,  don’t get your panties in a bunch, sweetheart | | Ray | | | | | | | | | Everybody sing along . . . | | | | | | ‘I’m just a sweet tri-athlete . . . ‘ | | | | | | | | | Before you buy. | | | | From Tri-sylvaniaaaaaa… | | | | No no no! It’s from ‘Anaerobiaaaaa-ha-hah!’ | | | | | | Before you buy.

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. While I’ve never met the woman, if she were in the same lane shouting I want sex with you… I’d swim away pretty fast, faster than normal… ++Mark.

For heaven’s sakes, Dr. Ruth doesn’t want any of your boy bodies. Why make her your target of ridicule?  Do you really expect any women in the next lane to shout such invitations to you (without profit, that is)? Ms Ruth

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Did I miss something here? How can onion rings make you go faster? Or is it sex w/ Dr Ruth that makes you go faster? My news server must have lost some postings, but I’m not sure I want to go to deja.com to look for them…

While I’ve never met the woman, if she were in the same lane shouting I want sex with you… I’d swim away pretty fast, faster than normal… ++Mark.

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Well, I used to shave for years, but now my current SO doesn’t seem to be so hot on the idea, so no shave for me. Some other triathletes/bike racers may ridicule, but other than the weird sensation of wind rippling through my leg fur, I don’t find shaving to be at all beneficial. Of course, I’m also itching to shave again (no pun intended), but I can’t even tell you why. Collective consciousness? Take home message: If it makes you feel uncomfortable, don’t do it. If you like it, why not? -Jason Galarneau Before you buy.

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A little lotion after you get out of the shower will help soften the stubble, too… Ellen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – welll…… The laissez faire way to deal with this is to get used to it. (That will eventually happen.) If you are proactive, you can shave them daily. Then you will have no stubble to catch on anything. (It gets faster with practice, trust me on this.) good luck, Gail OK.  I have been reading these posts for some time now, and much to my wife’s dismay, I shaved my legs this weekend.  Obviously a first timer, I took my time and everything went well (no cuts!).  However… My legs now annoy me!  Especially in the hamstring area.  Whenever I slide clothes over them, it’s as if the small stubble is catching on the fabric and WOW!  I have gone over them a couple of times, but I am looking for some encouraging advice.  My wife just laughs and gives me the "I told you so". Tyler Before you buy.

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As far as your sex life. What do you think Dr. Ruth would say?

Who cares what she says?  You planning to have sex with her? (UGH!)

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Who cares what Dr. Ruth says?  You planning to have sex with her? (UGH!)

One time I heard she had this thing something like a ring toss with onion rings. You can imagine what I mean.  I’m not planning on it but I’m game. If it makes you go faster why not? Before you buy.

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Who cares what Dr. Ruth says?  You planning to have sex with her? (UGH!) One time I heard she had this thing something like a ring toss with onion rings. You can imagine what I mean.  I’m not planning on it but I’m game. If it makes you go faster why not?

Did I miss something here? How can onion rings make you go faster? Or is it sex w/ Dr Ruth that makes you go faster? My news server must have lost some postings, but I’m not sure I want to go to deja.com to look for them… cheers, Andrew — Andrew Peabody/Karen Fisher Coconut Grove, FL

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who cares what Dr. Ruth says?  You planning to have sex with her? (UGH!) One time I heard she had this thing something like a ring toss with onion rings. You can imagine what I mean.  I’m not planning on it but I’m game. If it makes you go faster why not? Did I miss something here? How can onion rings make you go faster? Or is it sex w/ Dr Ruth that makes you go faster? My news server must have lost some postings, but I’m not sure I want to go to deja.com to look for them… cheers, Andrew

Andrew, Have you ever played horseshoes?  Get the concept?   Is this a hard-core newsgroup or wha’? Ms Ruth (not to be confused with that really cute little kewpie doll, Dr. Ruth)

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OK, OK,  don’t get your panties in a bunch, sweetheart Ray

THAT’S what that sensation was . . . . Before you buy.

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<snip Don?t just do your legs do your upper body too.  You will swim much faster.  Many debate this or say it will only be a second or two.  IMHO they are wrong! You will go much, much  faster.  After I shaved down I immediately jumped up to a whole new speed. <snip

i think you’re overstating the effect of shaving on swim speed… the majority of the shave-n-taper benefit comes from the taper (being rested, and ready to race)… shaving does make you feel more slippery, and i believe this makes you feel faster (maybe by exposing the nerve endings???).  also, as long as a wetsuit is legal, you’ll get more benefit from that anyway… i get 3 or 4 seconds per 100m with a fullsuit…no way i could get that from shaving alone.  IMHO, most will gain more from a wetsuit than shaving… although, if you go with a wetsuit other than the full, shaving sure couldn’t hurt -d

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Don?t just do your legs do your upper body too.  You will swim much faster.  Many debate this or say it will only be a second or two.  IMHO they are wrong!

Your opinion is just that, an unobjective opinion.  Truly objective scientific testing has shown that it only benefits those who are already fast (<22 minutes per mile) and then only confers a few percentage points benefit.  In commenting on the esthetics, comfort, etc. your opinion is valuable.  Performance is a measurable, objective quantity, and the domain of science.

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Now that the peanut gallery

Geez, what’s with you people?  It’s "unconventional conventionists." If you’re cursed with coarse, dark hair, I’d suggest waxing (did it for three years but got too many infected ingrowns as I was too lazy to loofah). The "sensation" takes some getting used to,

"Sensation" – now who’s being cute?

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To shave or not to shave

Question:

Does anyone know of where one can rent a triathlon wetsuit from in the greater London area? Shawn

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TRIUK do mail order ORCA wetsuits  ~50gbp for two weeks or 300 gpb if you keep it. ph 07000874854 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know of where one can rent a triathlon wetsuit from in the greater London area? Shawn

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Does anyone know of where one can rent a triathlon wetsuit from in the greater London area?

I think Snugg also hire suits, and assume will ship them out to wherever you are. See their ad in 220 of get back to me if you want their contact info. — Bob Mortimer

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Question:

Does anybody know if the Bayou City Duathlon scheduled in Houston for June 21 is still on? I cannot find it listed on any of the  usual schedules. Thanks, Frank Lee

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writes: Does anybody know if the Bayou City Duathlon scheduled in Houston for June 21 is still on? I cannot find it listed on any of the  usual schedules. Thanks, Frank Lee

The race has been cancelled for this year. Lance Phegley Editor Runner Triathlete News www.runningnetwork.com/runtrinews

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Question:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will be spending one week in San Francisco, staying on Lombard Street. Can anyone suggest good, safe places to run without having to climb massive hills?  I’m not at all familiar with the city.

If you start in the near the Marina, you can take the path to the GG Bridge, not too hilly at all. See the GG Promenade file, and check out the other SF files to see if you would like those runs. There is nothing really flat, but you can avoid massive hills. http://www.slip.net/~leeway/therun.html Regards, Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Lee  Rudin Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin:          vcard fn:             Lee  Rudin n:              Rudin;Lee org:            San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites title:          http://www.slip.net/~leeway/ x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version:        2.1 end:            vcard

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Towards the southern portion of the City is Hunter’s Point. Great place to run. No hills. VERY fast course. You will see the place and will want to run fast! This is VERY BAD ADVICE. Please elaborate. Unless something remarkable has happened recently, Hunters Point is a great place to get bonked on the head or shot at. Exactly! You will have no choice but to run fast! Think of it as speedwork!

Ha ha!!! Very good RWarrior, your trolls are finally improving.   Miles — Cut the 0_fin~SPAM_  to email back to me

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Towards the southern portion of the City is Hunter’s Point. Great place to run. No hills. VERY fast course. You will see the place and will want to run fast! This is VERY BAD ADVICE.

Please elaborate.

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Towards the southern portion of the City is Hunter’s Point. Great place to run. No hills. VERY fast course. You will see the place and will want to run fast! This is VERY BAD ADVICE. Please elaborate.

Unless something remarkable has happened recently, Hunters Point is a great place to get bonked on the head or shot at.

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Towards the southern portion of the City is Hunter’s Point. Great place to run. No hills. VERY fast course. You will see the place and will want to run fast! This is VERY BAD ADVICE. Please elaborate. Unless something remarkable has happened recently, Hunters Point is a great place to get bonked on the head or shot at.

Exactly! You will have no choice but to run fast! Think of it as speedwork!

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Towards the southern portion of the City is Hunter’s Point. Great place to run. No hills. VERY fast course. You will see the place and will want to run fast!

This is VERY BAD ADVICE.

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I will be spending one week in San Francisco, staying on Lombard Street. Can anyone suggest good, safe places to run without having to climb massive hills?  I’m not at all familiar with the city. Towards the southern portion of the City is Hunter’s Point. Great place to run. No hills. VERY fast course. You will see the place and will want to run fast!

Best runs I have ever had in that great city is down along the bay in the Marina district to the foot of the Golden Gate Bridge. Climb the steps (a nasty climb), then run across the bridge. A fabulous, really hard run. If you don’t want the hard part, you can stay on the flats along the bay. There are plenty of people to run with there. To add some hills, but not kill yourself, go up from the bay into the Presidio. Its pretty interesting in there. You can’t lose no matter what you do there. Joe

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I will be spending one week in San Francisco, staying on Lombard Street. Can anyone suggest good, safe places to run without having to climb massive hills?  I’m not at all familiar with the city. Runners’ heaven! Head north to the bay shoreline. Left takes you to the base of Golden Gate Bridge.  You are permitted to run across it. Right takes you through some parks, then into the crowded tourist wharf areas.

When I was there this summer (vacationing w/ family, not running ), I noticed a lot of runners running along the Wharf, from the Pier 45 area all the way to the base of the bridge, which is called Fort Point.  Running around the Presideo might be the way to go – lots of trees and not too hilly.

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I will be spending one week in San Francisco, staying on Lombard Street. Can anyone suggest good, safe places to run without having to climb massive hills?  I’m not at all familiar with the city.

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I will be spending one week in San Francisco, staying on Lombard Street. Can anyone suggest good, safe places to run without having to climb massive hills?  I’m not at all familiar with the city.

Runners’ heaven! Head north to the bay shoreline. Left takes you to the base of Golden Gate Bridge.  You are permitted to run across it. Right takes you through some parks, then into the crowded tourist wharf areas.

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Question:

I think Ilan is missing the main difference between triathletes and time trial’ers – triathletes train for three sports and therefore our training must be different than roadies who just train for cycling. I have yet to meet any roadie who does not have respect me or other triathletes as athletes (most intelligent ones recoginize the differences between cycling and triathlon), and I am definately in awe of how some of them perform!!  I think a lot of people have this idea that roadies and triathletes are at opposing ends of a war! I know several triathletes who participate in time trails when they can fit it into their schedule, and I know several roadies who participate in triathlons on relay teams.  Roadies and triathletes have many mutual interests, and mostly there is mutual respect. Alison

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5. Here are reasons not to use a Walkman: (a) It is illegal. (b) It is dangerous, as one should be listening for traffic or other hazards. (c) You should be experiencing your training, not trying to distract yourself. (d) If you train correctly, i.e., ride 22-27 mph, then you shouldn’t be able to hear your walkman over the wind noise.

Would it against the roadie code of ethics if I used walkman when I train on my rollers?   Nothing beats a little hard driving speed metal to smooth out my pedal stoke and work on my cadence. – Doug – Doug

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ilan, what were you trying to say in this post?  Are you just wondering aloud why triathletes don’t think the same way that you do?  You could just try asking us a few questions rather than speculating about how dumb we are.  We’re really a very friendly group.  It’s well-known that many roadies view triathletes as a bunch of geeks, but that’s ok, we don’t particularly care.  I did road racing for several years before I switched to tris, so I can see both sides.  They’re two different sports, and therefore, two different approaches to riding a bike.

um…just for the record…as one who has been a distance runner most of his life (recently getting into biking), my team-mates and I always thought both cyclists and triathletes were geeks. (ignoring the fact that everyone in high school thought the cross country runners were geeks) But then I’m an M.I.T. dropout, so who am I to talk about geeks? -Jonathan M. Gladstone Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jonathan Gladstone Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin:          vcard fn:             Jonathan Gladstone n:              Gladstone;Jonathan x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version:        2.1 end:            vcard

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I’d like to point out that I am a triathlete.  I ride an Italian steel road frome with standard drop handlebars.  I use STI because it is very hilly where I live and bar end shifters out on my clip-on aerobars would be absurd.  I generally leave my race wheels (Campy Shamals) on my bike throughout the racing season primarily because my training wheels have Dura-Ace hubs/cassette and it’s a hassle to make the derailleur adjustments for the different cassettes.  I have never had any desire to ride sew-ups because I think they’re stupid.  My position is not "way forward" by trigeek standards, but it’s as forward as it is because a triathlon is a time-trial (duh).  I never wear a Walkman when I ride.  I maintain a consistant average cadence of 85-90 rpms except when climbing (I can’t climb for shit, despite my 39×25 low gear).  I climb on virtually every single ride I do.  And I descend pretty damned well. Tribaby

Okay guys, admit it…doesn’t it just turn you on when Tricia talks ‘bikey’!!   Augie Calabrese

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I am not against triathletes, and I noted in my original posting that I have ridden with a number of excellent triathletes. What I am talking about is the separate "triathlete culture" among weak triathletes that seems to exist independent of what the good triathletes do.

Separate triathlete culture for weak triathletes??? Huh?  We share a commonality of swim, bike and run. That is our culture, friend.  Other than that, the differences make it interesting and worthwhile! My main point was that the biking leg of a triathlon is essentially the time trialling aspect of bicycle racing. Since time trialists in cycling don’t train radically differently than road racing cyclists, I didn’t understand why so many triathletes do train differently.

Answer in two words: three sports.   Regarding my equipment observation, I have asked a number of triathletes why they used cowhorns instead of drop bars, and all but one of them had never thought about this point, then mentioned the weight savings when pressed (there is no weight savings). The one that had thought about it noted that he only does flat or rolling rides that do not require getting out of the aero bars much.

I must concur with Ilan here.  I believe that triathletes tend to be trend-prone when it comes to cycling equipment.   Conversly, I think that road cyclists should spend more time doing aero bar rides as this gets you to ride in an aero position for a long time and will improve your posture on the drops.

Whatever suits ya! In conclusion, my point is that there should be less of a distinction between triathletes and road racers, their equipment, and their training methods.

When we all agree on politics, religion, abortion, and whether the toilet seat lid should be up or down, I am sure harmony and peace between triathletes and road racers will exist.  Until then, we will just have to live in the resulting violence of people on bicycles with differing views.   -Rolf — I am Iron Mac.          The Ironman is over in the blink of an eye.                                                   Enjoy it! IMC’94/14:07    IMC’95/11:59    IMC’97/12:12    IMC’98/I’m in!

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<Long winded troll deleted

Once again, Ilan is on a jihad… what it is, no one knows. Not even Ilan. Joe Cipale

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Ilan, what were you trying to say in this post?  Are you just wondering aloud why triathletes don’t think the same way that you do?  You could just try asking us a few questions rather than speculating about how dumb we are.  We’re really a very friendly group.  It’s well-known that many roadies view triathletes as a bunch of geeks, but that’s ok, we don’t particularly care.  I did road racing for several years before I switched to tris, so I can see both sides.  They’re two different sports, and therefore, two different approaches to riding a bike.

I am not against triathletes, and I noted in my original posting that I have ridden with a number of excellent triathletes. What I am talking about is the separate "triathlete culture" among weak triathletes that seems to exist independent of what the good triathletes do. My main point was that the biking leg of a triathlon is essentially the time trialling aspect of bicycle racing. Since time trialists in cycling don’t train radically differently than road racing cyclists, I didn’t understand why so many triathletes do train differently. Regarding my equipment observation, I have asked a number of triathletes why they used cowhorns instead of drop bars, and all but one of them had never thought about this point, then mentioned the weight savings when pressed (there is no weight savings). The one that had thought about it noted that he only does flat or rolling rides that do not require getting out of the aero bars much. Conversly, I think that road cyclists should spend more time doing aero bar rides as this gets you to ride in an aero position for a long time and will improve your posture on the drops. In conclusion, my point is that there should be less of a distinction between triathletes and road racers, their equipment, and their training methods. -ilan

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Would it against the roadie code of ethics if I used walkman when I train on my rollers?   Nothing beats a little hard driving speed metal to smooth out my pedal stoke and work on my cadence.

I never liked walkman and frequently have to deal with stupid in-line skaters and joggers (even walkers too) that have them on, but I know how boring it is to be on a stationary trainer. I’m also a "metal-head", but I have a mini-boombox that I have within my reach when on the trainer. The volume can be set high, but not at a sacrifice to your alertness to your surroundings, which is basically why a walkman is dangerous in the first place. "Iron" Pete Priolo IMC’96 – 10:36:37    IMC’97 – 10:42:53 1998 Schedule so far… Gulf Coast Tri – May 9 – unconfirmed IMC’98 – August 30 – unconfirmed

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Would it against the roadie code of ethics if I used walkman when I train on my rollers?   Nothing beats a little hard driving speed metal to smooth out my pedal stoke and work on my cadence. – Doug

That’s completely unsafe – you should NEVER use a walkman while cycling, even on a stationary trainer. Once I was working out on the rollers while wearing a walkman.  The music was turned up so loud that I didn’t hear my wife come up behind me with a tray of lemonade.  Just as she neared my side I sat up to wipe some sweat from my chest, jarring her with my elbow, which sent me careening off the rollers into a wall.  Luckily I was wearing a helmet; it undoubtedly saved my life! I’ve learned my lesson!  Now whenever I want to listen to music while riding, I simply hire a musician to stoke my tandem. RES (Although the newer, ventilated headphones from Bell & Giro look like they might allow more external sound to penetrate, while keeping your ears cooler.  Hmmmm…)

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Ilan, what were you trying to say in this post?  Are you just wondering aloud why triathletes don’t think the same way that you do?  You could just try asking us a few questions rather than speculating about how dumb we are.  We’re really a very friendly group.  It’s well-known that many roadies view triathletes as a bunch of geeks, but that’s ok, we don’t particularly care.  I did road racing for several years before I switched to tris, so I can see both sides.  They’re two different sports, and therefore, two different approaches to riding a bike. Sure, it’d be great if we could fit training races into our busy schedules, and some of us do.  But remember, we still have to hit the pool and the track and the trails to train for swimming and running.  Not too many people can do it all. Please just keep an open mind.  Thanks to the roadies on RBR who posted somewhat in "defense" of tri-geeks.

Well said Tricia.  When Lasse Viren began running most of his workouts on trails in the late ’60s instead of hammering himself senseless on the track (as was the norm), he was roundly jeered (especially by all the ‘experts’ – the coaches).  I guess double golds in not one, but two consecutive Olympics say that branching out or trying new methods of training is a useless endeavor!!!  If more people in single mode sports were a little less haughty and a lot more willing to be open-minded, they might encourage people to really expand their athletic horizons, instead of making them want to quit (or train by themselves all the time)… Jim Harrington

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About this walkman thing, I used to pick up the odd Bicycle Guide issue, wherein there was always a page or two used to ‘get to know’ a pro roadie. One of the routine questions asked of these men was, "favorite music to train with?" I remember only one fellow responding, "I don’t train with a walkman."

i train with music all the time, on my trainer with a big ole stereo.  i’m soft about bad weather so i spend much time on the trainer also get great interval workouts.  btw, my favorite training cd’s are "trainspotting" "greatful dead 5-8-77""top of the stax"-this might be a good thread? On the other side of the roadie-triathlete dichotomy, I never have understood the value of dual-control levers on tri-bikes…

i find sti invaluable on short technical courses and hilly courses, i’m always in just the right gear when climbing, also while not having much money i use my bike for both training and racing and sti is great for negotiating high traffic areas and non-aero riding-i do 1/2 my training out of the areo position to ease the burden on by sometimes sore back.

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My, aren’t we stuck on ourself??? Triatheletes train differently because it is a totally different environment from road racing.  Do drafting, no team tactics, and the minor fact that there is a huge swim before and a marathon afterwards! You may pass them on a downhill, but I wouldn’t get in their way during the swim or the run! JMHO Bikeboy

: I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely : differently than bike racers. My main point is that triathletes are : training for time trials and the best time trialists are usually road : racing cyclists, so triathletes should spend significant time doing : training races or group rides. Clearly there is a significant : percentage of triathletes that do this and at Triathlete Zombies in : Santa Monica, the first advice they give to aspiring triathletes is to : do group rides or even to take classes at the velodrome. Moreover, I : know a number of triathletes who do training rides, and I haven’t : heard that many complaints, except when they are at the front making : others suffer. : On the other hand, it seems that many triathletes have never heard or : thought about this and believe that since they are triathletes they : should use equipement and train like what they think is a triathlete. : This is what I have observed: : 1. Cowhorn handlebars. : 2. STI : 3. Triathlon bike with full time (clincher) aero wheels : 4. Way forward position. : 5. Walkman. : 6. Big gear, slow cadence, slow speed. : 7. Can’t descend. : 8. Never do hills. : Now, since most bike racers around LA also can’t descend, never do : hills and ride stupid gears, I will not discuss these points, except : to say that whenever I pass a triathlete going 50 rpm at 20mph in the : aero bars, and I am riding no hands at 100rpm, they don’t seem to mind. : Something like that happened to me a year ago and I stopped using aero : bars for a while. : 1. I think that cowhorn handlebars are a real misconception and most : triathletes use them because they’ve seen them used by pro’s. Cowhorns : were introduced in the 1980 Olympics in the kilometer time trial, but : the consensus was that they merely had value to psych out the : competition. They were then used on most Tour de France time trial : bikes. To me, it seems that the real point of using cowhorns is that : you have such a low stem position for your aero bars that your brake : hoods are at the same position that your drops would be, so your drops : are much too low to be used. This reasoning does not apply to : triathletes since their aero bars are usually quite high. On the other : hand, there are many advantages to having regular drop bars, : especially if the rider is doing training (as he should) over varied : terrain. The weight savings from cowhorns to drop bars is non existent. : 2. There is nothing more stupid that having a full on time trial bike : with shifters on the levers as every shift means getting out of the : aero position. Even down tube shifter are more aero and quicker to shift. : I once saw a $5000 Felt bike set up that way. : 3. I don’t see the point of using aero wheels all the time. They are : expensive and repairing one is not always possible, e.g., if it is a : composite wheel. The other point is that having full time aero wheels : makes it pretty much necessary to use clinchers, so your aero wheels : are not as fast. : 4. I have heard that the forward position is specific to triathlons, : as it is more compatible with running. On the other hand, examination : of the best time trialists in the world (ignore Obree positions) : reveals that their time trial posture is similar to their position in : the drops. This is another reason why long group rides helps time : trialing. : 5. Here are reasons not to use a Walkman: (a) It is illegal. (b) It is : dangerous, as one should be listening for traffic or other hazards. : (c) You should be experiencing your training, not trying to distract : yourself. (d) If you train correctly, i.e., ride 22-27 mph, then you : shouldn’t be able to hear your walkman over the wind noise. : -ilan — bikeboy                                   __  __     ____  ___       ___ ____

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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers.

Umm….could it be because triathlon and road racing are two completely different sports? My main point is that triathletes are training for time trials and the best time trialists are usually road racing cyclists, so triathletes should spend significant time doing training races or group rides.

Is your main point that you’re trying to give all of us trigeeks a sanctimonious  (and unsolicited) piece of advice?  Sure, the best time trialists are usually road racing cyclists, but they don’t have to swim before they ride and run after they ride.  We gotta train in those two sports too, y’know.  And sure, training races/group rides can give you an excellent interval workout, but that’s very different from the steady, sustained effort of a time trial. On the other hand, it seems that many triathletes have never heard or thought about this and believe that since they are triathletes they should use equipement and train like what they think is a triathlete.

Is there something wrong with that?  What is your point here?  That triathletes are dumb?  Ummm…if you ARE a triathlete, doesn’t it make sense to use equipment and train like a triathlete?   This is what I have observed:

 *snip* Precisely!!!  This is what YOU have OBSERVERED.  So now you’re going to generalize pointlessly about all triathletes.  Having a nice troll through the neighborhood, eh? I’d like to point out that I am a triathlete.  I ride an Italian steel road frome with standard drop handlebars.  I use STI because it is very hilly where I live and bar end shifters out on my clip-on aerobars would be absurd.  I generally leave my race wheels (Campy Shamals) on my bike throughout the racing season primarily because my training wheels have Dura-Ace hubs/cassette and it’s a hassle to make the derailleur adjustments for the different cassettes.  I have never had any desire to ride sew-ups because I think they’re stupid.  My position is not "way forward" by trigeek standards, but it’s as forward as it is because a triathlon is a time-trial (duh).  I never wear a Walkman when I ride.  I maintain a consistant average cadence of 85-90 rpms except when climbing (I can’t climb for shit, despite my 39×25 low gear).  I climb on virtually every single ride I do.  And I descend pretty damned well. whenever I pass a triathlete going 50 rpm at 20mph in the aero bars, and I am riding no hands at 100rpm, they don’t seem to mind. Something like that happened to me a year ago and I stopped using aero bars for a while.

This doesn’t make sense; what are you trying to say?  I don’t understand why this caused you to remove your aero bars. having full time aero wheels makes it pretty much necessary to use clinchers,

It’s never wise to spout off about something about which you are misinformed.  What made you think that all aero wheels are clinchers? so your aero wheels are not as fast.

Wait a minute, let me get this straight:  You’re saying that aerodynamic clincher wheels are not as fast as non-aero sew-up wheels?  Excuse me? I’d like to see you prove that one. Ilan, what were you trying to say in this post?  Are you just wondering aloud why triathletes don’t think the same way that you do?  You could just try asking us a few questions rather than speculating about how dumb we are.  We’re really a very friendly group.  It’s well-known that many roadies view triathletes as a bunch of geeks, but that’s ok, we don’t particularly care.  I did road racing for several years before I switched to tris, so I can see both sides.  They’re two different sports, and therefore, two different approaches to riding a bike. Sure, it’d be great if we could fit training races into our busy schedules, and some of us do.  But remember, we still have to hit the pool and the track and the trails to train for swimming and running.  Not too many people can do it all. Please just keep an open mind.  Thanks to the roadies on RBR who posted somewhat in "defense" of tri-geeks. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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Rick, excellent rebuttal to Illan’s arrogant comments. Sounded like Ilan had a bad case of road rash — otherwise, why so cranky? Maybe before he is so free with the comments he ought to "tri". Bet this roadie geek can’t swim a 25m, let alone force his excessively muscle bound quads into a run. In – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Some of the points are reasonable, but some are just wrong.

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Jordaan) writes: About this walkman thing, I used to pick up the odd Bicycle Guide issue, wherein there was always a page or two used to ‘get to know’ a pro roadie. One of the routine questions asked of these men was, "favorite music to train with?" I remember only one fellow responding, "I don’t train with a walkman." On the other side of the roadie-triathlete dichotomy, I never have understood the value of dual-control levers on tri-bikes…

There are times in winter when I do a three hour ride at an absolutely steady pace, often in the dark and alone, on a circuit closed to traffic.  If I didn’t have a walkman I’d go insane. JT

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Observations about tri-guys: 1. Cowhorn handlebars. 2. STI 3. Triathlon bike with full time (clincher) aero wheels 4. Way forward position. 5. Walkman.

etc. etc. … 5. Here are reasons not to use a Walkman: (a) It is illegal. (b) It is dangerous, as one should be listening for traffic or other hazards. (c) You should be experiencing your training, not trying to distract yourself. (d) If you train correctly, i.e., ride 22-27 mph, then you shouldn’t be able to hear your walkman over the wind noise. -ilan

About this walkman thing, I used to pick up the odd Bicycle Guide issue, wherein there was always a page or two used to ‘get to know’ a pro roadie. One of the routine questions asked of these men was, "favorite music to train with?" I remember only one fellow responding, "I don’t train with a walkman." On the other side of the roadie-triathlete dichotomy, I never have understood the value of dual-control levers on tri-bikes… Vancouver, B.C. (remove XX from address before replying)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers. My main point is Sometimes, when RST bogs down a bit, a troll like this one can liven things up a bit, but these days when we are enjoying all the wonderful accounts of Ironman Canada, the last thing we need is some stray tom wandering around in our neighborhood, smelling up the place with his obnoxious spray.  I hope no one here gets caught in Vardi’s net; it wouldn’t be constructive or informative or entertaining in the least. Ruth Kazez

Well, it looks like you just defeated your own purpose. — Dave Bailey

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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers. My main point is

Sometimes, when RST bogs down a bit, a troll like this one can liven things up a bit, but these days when we are enjoying all the wonderful accounts of Ironman Canada, the last thing we need is some stray tom wandering around in our neighborhood, smelling up the place with his obnoxious spray.  I hope no one here gets caught in Vardi’s net; it wouldn’t be constructive or informative or entertaining in the least. Ruth Kazez

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This was cross-posted to r.b.r and r.s.t. I’m responding to both newgroups. For those of you on r.b.r., please excuse the interruption. But one of your number has thrown down the gauntlet in our stretch of beach. Some of the points are reasonable, but some are just wrong. I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers. My main point is that triathletes are training for time trials and the best time trialists are usually road racing cyclists, so triathletes should spend significant time doing training races or group rides. Clearly there is a significant percentage of triathletes that do this and at Triathlete Zombies in Santa Monica, the first advice they give to aspiring triathletes is to do group rides or even to take classes at the velodrome. Moreover, I know a number of triathletes who do training rides, and I haven’t heard that many complaints, except when they are at the front making others suffer.

Triathletes are training for an event that requires swimming and running in addition to time trialing. I’ve been toasted by a few roadies. But watching them run is a true joy to someone as slow as me. There’s hope after all! I agree with the need to train with roadies, and I regularly do. I will say, however, that I’m afraid of many of the roadies I ride with. They do not have better bike skills than I do, and they don’t seem to mind collecting another few acres of road rash. I do mind, and I stay away from them. One of the reasons I race triathlons is that I’m sick of being crashed by morons who can’t (or won’t) hold a line. But when I ride in groups, I use a road bike, not a tri bike. I stay away from the riders in their aerobars, too. I don’t think, however, that I get as much out of 90 minutes of yo-yo pack as I do out of 90 minutes of intense effort. Pack riding is like interval training. Lots of jumps, but also lots of coasting and wheesucking. Lots of saving one’s strength for a sprint. Solo training, if conducted with discipline, trains endurance better than pack riding. Go read Greg Lemond’s book. He did a LOT of solo training, in addition to group training. <redundant snippage that includes admonitions against too slow a cadence which I agree with completely 1. I think that cowhorn handlebars are a real misconception and most triathletes use them because they’ve seen them used by pro’s.

<snipped "history" lesson about cowhorns You are right about cowhorns. But look at the triathletes who are going fast. Those handlebars are right down there. And the newer cowhorns have significant drop. How many roadies have I seen with handlebars positioned so that they cannot use the drops without banging their knees against their ribs? 2. There is nothing more stupid that having a full on time trial bike with shifters on the levers as every shift means getting out of the aero position. Even down tube shifter are more aero and quicker to shift. I once saw a $5000 Felt bike set up that way.

Again, look at the fast people. The shifters are on the tips of the aerobars. That’s where mine are, and I’m not even fast. 3. I don’t see the point of using aero wheels all the time. They are expensive and repairing one is not always possible, e.g., if it is a composite wheel. The other point is that having full time aero wheels makes it pretty much necessary to use clinchers, so your aero wheels are not as fast.

It depends on the wheel. Many ride Spinergies, for example, all the time because they are strong and comfortable, and more durable than conventional race wheels. I use them on my travel bike because they fit in the suitcase better. And I’ll put up my Vittoria Open Extremes, with good tubes, on Reflex rims and Record hubs (the wheels on my Eddy Merckx) up against tubular rims for virtually all riders any day. The rider who can tell the difference between the newer top-line clinchers on top-line wheels and sew-ups is rare indeed. My front wheel, with tire and tube, weighs within 15 grams of an old sew-up racing wheel (Dura Ace hub, Fiamme rim, cotton trainer). Sure a good sew-up would weigh less, but a latex tube in my clincher would make up most of that difference. But your economics argument is invalid. I’ve seen a lot more examples of stupid-light weight-weenie stuff on road bikes than on tri bikes. Triathletes tend to be older and more financially secure. Don’t be envious. I have two sets of Spinergies and two sets of conventional wheels for the bikes I ride regularly. Besides, I’ve never seen a set of Zipp 440’s (a very popular tri racing wheel) for clinchers. And the last self-righteous child who laughed at me because I didn’t use sew-ups any more was a tri-geek. My sew-ups are on my vintage road racing bike, ca. 1978, and I switched somewhere about that time and never looked back. 4. I have heard that the forward position is specific to triathlons, as it is more compatible with running. On the other hand, examination of the best time trialists in the world (ignore Obree positions) reveals that their time trial posture is similar to their position in the drops. This is another reason why long group rides helps time trialing.

The forward position allows you to get into a more aero position without being wrapped too tightly at the waist. Your gluts don’t get stretched so much, and your hamstrings get less abuse. It really helps in the run. But mainly it’s the only way to stay aero and comfortable at the same time. 5. Here are reasons not to use a Walkman: (a) It is illegal. (b) It is dangerous, as one should be listening for traffic or other hazards. (c) You should be experiencing your training, not trying to distract yourself. (d) If you train correctly, i.e., ride 22-27 mph, then you shouldn’t be able to hear your walkman over the wind noise.

Now, you are showing off. I train at 23 mph, and I regularly get dusted by the roadies I regularly ride with. And many roadies put in a good time trial–they can’t maintain the high-intensity effort for a long period. Some are rabbits–good sprinters but can’t gut it out. Some don’t have the mental toughness to stay that close to the limit with nothing but their own thoughts to motivate them. The physical qualities that make good stage-race winners make good time trialists: a monstrously high VO2 max, and extreme efficiency of motion. Those qualities are not present in every criterium winner or every short road race winner, who position themselves for the sprint using wheelsucking and team tactics. I’ve never seen a triathlete train with a walkman. That has always been reserved for ignorant non-athlete bike riders. -ilan

Rick Denney Remember–free advice is worth what you pay for it!

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: Rather than address Ilan’s many points, I wanted to add a few observations. : I moved to Phoenix from the Bay Area earlier this year and noted some : differences between the group rides. In the Bay Area, triathletes rarely : (if ever) rode our group rides, and we never rode with them. Here in Phoenix, : there are fewer group rides, and more mixing. Our Sunday ride is nearly : dead flat, and has a 17.5 mile section that is done in three groups with : mostly paceline organization. The triathletes mostly do the fastest group : and do a really great job making the ride extremely painful. Riding skills : are very good, and I’ve been really impressed by the triathletes at : covering gaps and working very hard. Ilan did a good job describing the There used to be a separation of roadies and triathletes on the club rides here in Phoenix. Then Brent Steiner and some of his friends started doing the Sunday ride. Brent won the Coors Light national biathlon series a few years back is capable of inflicting a lot of pain on a group ride. The first day he showed up one of the club riders rode up and told him (loudly) to get out of his aero bars while in the pace line. All went well, he joined the club and the mix has been going on since then.

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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers….

<odd blather from someone who sounds like a roadie snipped. Thanks for the laugh.  Your post and your holier than thou, I am a true cyclist attitude are the main reason that many of us dislike most roadies. You obviously haven’t visited RST, else you would know that we are normally open minded people willing to listen to varying opinions if they are stated objectively and with courtesy.  That, or you’re just trying to dangle a little flame bait so that you and your pals over on RBR can have something to talk about.  Either way, try again. — Stacy Hills Reston, VA

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Well for starters triathletes don’t (by and large) want to use the same cadence as a bike racer because it would kill there legs. . . we do have to run on them as well you know. Secondly, except for professional events, there is no drafting which is the opposite of bicycling training and pack riding. While there is some benefit to training with a bike racers or at a veledrome, particularly with respect to improving one’s bike handling skills it seems that we do pretty well without As for your list I will leave that to someone else.  I guess I would ask. Have you have done a duathlon or triathon. . . I would suspect not!!!

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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers. My main point is …..

..snip… It seems as though your main point was to slap the tri-guys/gals upside the head. -Mark

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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers.

I typically ride more with "roadies" and have learned quite a bitfrom them. Mostly about good riding skills and efficiency.  And humility.  About the time you think you can hammer, get out there with a group of good cyclists.  Then watch them fly past you  like you are standing still as you lead out the town-line sprint at 30+ mph, or head into some good hills. 2. There is nothing more stupid that having a full on time trial bike with shifters on the levers as every shift means getting out of the aero position. Even down tube shifter are more aero and quicker to shift.

I’ll disagree with this one.  I still have down-tube shifters, and everytime I shift while in the aero-bars, I have to pause in my pedal stroke to keep from hitting my knees. kbb Kim B. Blair, Ph.D.                     Senior Staff Scientist 955 Massachusetts Ave., 5th Floor       (617) 354-3124 ext. 18 Cambridge, MA  02139-3180               (617) 491-4522 (fax)

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I have been wondering why many triathletes train completely differently than bike racers. My main point is that triathletes are training for time trials and the best time trialists are usually road racing cyclists, so triathletes should spend significant time doing training races or group rides. Clearly there is a significant percentage of triathletes that do this and at Triathlete Zombies in Santa Monica, the first advice they give to aspiring triathletes is to do group rides or even to take classes at the velodrome. Moreover, I know a number of triathletes who do training rides, and I haven’t heard that many complaints, except when they are at the front making others suffer. On the other hand, it seems that many triathletes have never heard or thought about this and believe that since they are triathletes they should use equipement and train like what they think is a triathlete. This is what I have observed: 1. Cowhorn handlebars. 2. STI 3. Triathlon bike with full time (clincher) aero wheels 4. Way forward position. 5. Walkman. 6. Big gear, slow cadence, slow speed. 7. Can’t descend. 8. Never do hills. Now, since most bike racers around LA also can’t descend, never do hills and ride stupid gears, I will not discuss these points, except to say that whenever I pass a triathlete going 50 rpm at 20mph in the aero bars, and I am riding no hands at 100rpm, they don’t seem to mind. Something like that happened to me a year ago and I stopped using aero bars for a while. 1. I think that cowhorn handlebars are a real misconception and most triathletes use them because they’ve seen them used by pro’s. Cowhorns were introduced in the 1980 Olympics in the kilometer time trial, but the consensus was that they merely had value to psych out the competition. They were then used on most Tour de France time trial bikes. To me, it seems that the real point of using cowhorns is that you have such a low stem position for your aero bars that your brake hoods are at the same position that your drops would be, so your drops are much too low to be used. This reasoning does not apply to triathletes since their aero bars are usually quite high. On the other hand, there are many advantages to having regular drop bars, especially if the rider is doing training (as he should) over varied terrain. The weight savings from cowhorns to drop bars is non existent. 2. There is nothing more stupid that having a full on time trial bike with shifters on the levers as every shift means getting out of the aero position. Even down tube shifter are more aero and quicker to shift. I once saw a $5000 Felt bike set up that way. 3. I don’t see the point of using aero wheels all the time. They are expensive and repairing one is not always possible, e.g., if it is a composite wheel. The other point is that having full time aero wheels makes it pretty much necessary to use clinchers, so your aero wheels are not as fast. 4. I have heard that the forward position is specific to triathlons, as it is more compatible with running. On the other hand, examination of the best time trialists in the world (ignore Obree positions) reveals that their time trial posture is similar to their position in the drops. This is another reason why long group rides helps time trialing. 5. Here are reasons not to use a Walkman: (a) It is illegal. (b) It is dangerous, as one should be listening for traffic or other hazards. (c) You should be experiencing your training, not trying to distract yourself. (d) If you train correctly, i.e., ride 22-27 mph, then you shouldn’t be able to hear your walkman over the wind noise. -ilan

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Question:

                   Ironman Is a Hoax

Could not resist posting a huge (and loud):                 LOL!  LOL!  LOL! Greg Pressler

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Whoa, a little hard on the guy aren’t we.  Chill-out a little and enjoy the humor of the story.  If you didn’t laugh when you read that you were either having a bad day or have no sense of humor at all. I laughed my ass off Brandon

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Guys, Don’t you know parody and sarcasm when you see it? Personally, I thought it was funny as hell, especially the parody of conspiracy theorists in the discussion of the pro-only meetings at IM races. I think the complainer is part of the conspiracy also, and is trying to deflect accusations by making it sound rediculous. After all, I destroy myself to run a 22-minute 5K, so he must also be cheating. The guys that pass me so effortlessly on the run, especially those that I dusted on the bike, must be operating in a parallel (and faster) universe without a license. Please, guys, the tongue planted firmly in cheek really should be obvious. If it isn’t, assume that it is, and respond in kind. Then, if the guy really was serious (and a serious lunatic), he’ll still get the point. Too much serious bitching going on around here: everybody’s on edge. Must be the heat and humidity this time of year.

Hear, hear!  I was absolutely shocked to read the two posts that apparently took the "Hoax" post seriously.  Come on, could the humor have been MORE obvious?? Sheesh, lighten up, guys!  Like Rick, I was laughing my head off.  I *really* enjoyed that post.  I knew there had to be a rational explanation for the speeds that those durned pros can maintain; there’s just no way a human being could go that fast for that long, that’s all there is to it. Lest anyone miss it, here is my smiley to indicate that I am JOKING:  ;-) Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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David, You have only touched the tip of the iceberg.  The Pros don’t even paricipate in the race.  The show up, walk around, shake a few hands and then head back to their hotels.  The shots you see of them racing are actually done on a sound stage and with the help of mirrors.    As time runs down, they do a "Rosie Ruiz" and jump onto the course with about a mile to go.   Most of them are hard drinking, smoking, drug using 250lb musicians. I’ve heard some of them jam with Jimmy Hendricks, Elvis and Stevie Ray Vaughn.  They are actually not that bad. Eric p.s. I don’t know which was funnier, your post, or the responses from people who thought you were serious. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                         Ironman Is a Hoax      So, 20 some days away from Ironman Canada, I am forced to conclude that Ironman triathlons are a complete and utter hoax. Ironman Hawaii: never happened. 7:50 at Ironman Germany: not a chance. 8:04 at Ironman Canada: a complete lie. Now before you all send me hate mail, malicious flames, and personal attacks, here me out, I too was ignorant.      I went for a 5 km. run last week. For a potential ironman that isn’t much, but I was recovering from road-rash and it was a "do my legs still work with all these scabs" type run. I planned to take it easy, but after 200 m. I realized two important things: my legs still worked, and I had a lot of energy left over from my recovery week. The net result was me running like a bat out of hell and setting a personal best of 19:41. What does this have to do with Ironman hoaxes? Allow me to continue.      I ran hard. In fact, I ran really hard! The weirdos in the car who followed me for a kilometre laughing recognized that I was running fast. The poor guy in nearly ran over while he was walking his dog must has concluded I was flying. The old couple I barrelled by nearly had heart-attacks. I was fast! I felt ill, wasted, exhausted but triumphant. I set a personal best, but more to the point I can to my stunning Ironman realization. The facts:      I ran 5 km. in 19:41, my pace being 3:56 minutes a kilometre. Now let us pretend I am a professional hoaxer, I mean triathlete. I would complete the marathon portion in around 2:45 hours, probably lower. That would put my pace at 3:55 minutes a kilometre. In other words, if I was a professional triathlete, I would be going faster during the marathon, after 3.8 km. swimming and 180 km. cycling, than I went during my 5 km. training run after a weeks rest. I find this completely unacceptable.      There is absolutely no way that someone can run that fast at the end of a marathon. I just isn’t humanly possible. I am a skinny guy, I should be able to run fast, and by God I can! These so called "athletes" aren’t athletes at all, they are simply con artists and we are the victims, and I have just proved it! The conclusion:      Ironman is a hoax! The course the professionals race on is shorter than what we age groupers use. It must be! The swim is the same, the ride is at least 1/3 shorter, and the run is halved. I would guess it measures around 21.2 km, or 13.1 miles. All of us age-groupers could easily keep up with the likes of Mark Allen or Paula Newby-Fraser, if only we could complete on a level playing field.      Now I know you are all convinced by my argument, but you are probably wondering why? Let me explain: would you all spend $3,000 on a bike, $150 on shoes, and thousands on miscellaneous expenses if you knew you didn’t need them? Of course not. Let’s face it, the professionals need to convince us that this equipment is the key to success, what better way to do this than by beating our times by 2 – 4 hours. It is simple hero worship, and we are the victims. If you need any more proof, check out the IMC race booklet, page 21. Yes, at 2:00 there is a meeting only for professional triathletes. No age-groupers allowed. I wonder what they will be talking about… That alternate route around Richter Pass, the run turn around at Skaha Estates… The devious devils.      Incidentally, if you e-mail me or posting a follow-up along the lines of "I did Hawaii in 9:45 and didn’t use the professional course", or "My wife/husband/partner/friend/sibling/Maytag repairman did the course in 9:30",  I’ll know you’re one of them, you’ll be on my list. Yours in Anticipating a cement wetsuit from "The Man" David Barclay IMC 1997 Triathlon: "Swim, Bike, Crawl"

– Failure Is Not The Inability To Succeed;         Rather, The Unwillingness To Put Forth The Effort.                 Just Tri iT!

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     There is absolutely no way that someone can run that fast at the end of a marathon. I just isn’t humanly possible. I am a skinny guy, I should be able to run fast, and by God I can! These so called "athletes" aren’t athletes at all, they are simply con artists and we are the victims, and I have just proved it! The conclusion:

   I have to agree with him, but my skepticism is towards the bike. There’s no way someone can stay upright on one of those things, never mind for hours on end. First time I tried to ride a bike I kept falling over. I agree, it’s all a hoax. Rob

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It’s true. Every word of it. However, I have figured out how it is done. They don’t cut the course. They don’t take a lift from a passing vehicle. They don’t shorten the course for the pros either. The answer…… Cloning! That’s the ONLY way you can explain seeing Mark Allen at the beginning of the bike …. then the middle (a mere 15-20 minutes later by my calculation on video tape) …. then the end. And the run! Well …. you don’t think a "cloned" Allen isn’t jumping out of the bushes every other mile?! There’s your answer. (finally, a "fun" thread) Dennis McMinn

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Oh, where am I? I’m sorry, is this the joke newsgroup? I’m looking for a group of whiners, do you know where they are at? Sorry to bother you guys, continue with your laughter. I’ll see you later "Iron" Pete Priolo Sub 10 hour IMC’97 —Countdown: 23 days until D-Day!!!

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Hey Pete, Don’t worry …. this laughter can’t last that long …. somebody is bound to write something to get us going on a serious nature again! Until then, I’ll  go back to driving my car in the aero position! Good luck at IMC! Dennis

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Response to David’s message: BRAVO!  I loved it.  Enough to bring me out of lurker status to send a comment in.  This newgroup is very serious, a little more fun and others might get involved.  I have been doing triathlons for 4 years now, and one of the reasons I started in the sport was because I thought the participants were fun, and relaxed.  Did anyone read the article in "Winning" magazine for the summer?  (Forgive, I probably missed the harsh postings on the article.)  It was the interview with Bob Roll and he makes some biting and cruel generalizations about triathletes.  At first I felt a little snubbed by his comments, but then I started realizing he may have some good points.  Really, I think we are a fun bunch.  But when someone does try to have a little fun, they kind of get jumped on.  Press on David’s of the tri world!  Your humor and time are appreciated by some!!! Avid lurker,   Gina

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Remember when they said a man had walked on the moon??? Same deal. Hollywood. We had the Russians to help us see through that fraud, and we have David to steer us clear of this one. Scott

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Well, since the beans are thoroughly spilled, I might as well admit it…. I was Marcus Allen’s "stunt double" during his reign of terror at Kona.  Yep, I did the bike leg for him.  Obviously, he didn’t do the swim, but just hung out under the dock with a scuba tank.  Watch the films closely – you’ll see "Marcus" swimming into the beach, and then disappear under water for a couple seconds, and resurface looking fresh as a daisy. His swimming double then just hung out breathing the rest of the scuba tank, used a waterproof pen to add a couple digits to his race number, then swam to the shore and DNF’d. He’d run to the T1 tent and begin to change, and as soon as the camera was off him, I’d jump in and take over from there. Luckily, I look enough like him that no one could tell the difference.  Heck, since my first and middle name are "Mark Alan", I didn’t even miss beat if someone called me "by name". And yeah, he did his own running.  But how do you think he did those times, anyway? Now, I’ve grown a beard and gotten out of shape, just so no one would recognize me as the great cyclist that I am.  Now that the truth is out, maybe I’ll shave (everything) and see if Dave Scott needs a stand in…..   Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.cynetfl.com/habanero/ Home of the $675 ti frame and demented fantasy

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                        Ironman Is a Hoax      So, 20 some days away from Ironman Canada, I am forced to conclude that Ironman triathlons are a complete and utter hoax. Ironman Hawaii: never happened. 7:50 at Ironman Germany: not a chance. 8:04 at Ironman Canada: a complete lie. Now before you all send me hate mail, malicious flames, and personal attacks, here me out, I too was ignorant.      I went for a 5 km. run last week. For a potential ironman that isn’t much, but I was recovering from road-rash and it was a "do my legs still work with all these scabs" type run. I planned to take it easy, but after 200 m. I realized two important things: my legs still worked, and I had a lot of energy left over from my recovery week. The net result was me running like a bat out of hell and setting a personal best of 19:41. What does this have to do with Ironman hoaxes? Allow me to continue.      I ran hard. In fact, I ran really hard! The weirdos in the car who followed me for a kilometre laughing recognized that I was running fast. The poor guy in nearly ran over while he was walking his dog must has concluded I was flying. The old couple I barrelled by nearly had heart-attacks. I was fast! I felt ill, wasted, exhausted but triumphant. I set a personal best, but more to the point I can to my stunning Ironman realization. The facts:      I ran 5 km. in 19:41, my pace being 3:56 minutes a kilometre. Now let us pretend I am a professional hoaxer, I mean triathlete. I would complete the marathon portion in around 2:45 hours, probably lower. That would put my pace at 3:55 minutes a kilometre. In other words, if I was a professional triathlete, I would be going faster during the marathon, after 3.8 km. swimming and 180 km. cycling, than I went during my 5 km. training run after a weeks rest. I find this completely unacceptable.      There is absolutely no way that someone can run that fast at the end of a marathon. I just isn’t humanly possible. I am a skinny guy, I should be able to run fast, and by God I can! These so called "athletes" aren’t athletes at all, they are simply con artists and we are the victims, and I have just proved it! The conclusion:      Ironman is a hoax! The course the professionals race on is shorter than what we age groupers use. It must be! The swim is the same, the ride is at least 1/3 shorter, and the run is halved. I would guess it measures around 21.2 km, or 13.1 miles. All of us age-groupers could easily keep up with the likes of Mark Allen or Paula Newby-Fraser, if only we could complete on a level playing field.      Now I know you are all convinced by my argument, but you are probably wondering why? Let me explain: would you all spend $3,000 on a bike, $150 on shoes, and thousands on miscellaneous expenses if you knew you didn’t need them? Of course not. Let’s face it, the professionals need to convince us that this equipment is the key to success, what better way to do this than by beating our times by 2 – 4 hours. It is simple hero worship, and we are the victims. If you need any more proof, check out the IMC race booklet, page 21. Yes, at 2:00 there is a meeting only for professional triathletes. No age-groupers allowed. I wonder what they will be talking about… That alternate route around Richter Pass, the run turn around at Skaha Estates… The devious devils.      Incidentally, if you e-mail me or posting a follow-up along the lines of "I did Hawaii in 9:45 and didn’t use the professional course", or "My wife/husband/partner/friend/sibling/Maytag repairman did the course in 9:30",  I’ll know you’re one of them, you’ll be on my list. Yours in Anticipating a cement wetsuit from "The Man" David Barclay IMC 1997 Triathlon: "Swim, Bike, Crawl"

Response:

Hey Guys, Don’t you know parody and sarcasm when you see it? Personally, I thought it was funny as hell, especially the parody of conspiracy theorists in the discussion of the pro-only meetings at IM races. I think the complainer is part of the conspiracy also, and is trying to deflect accusations by making it sound rediculous. After all, I destroy myself to run a 22-minute 5K, so he must also be cheating. The guys that pass me so effortlessly on the run, especially those that I dusted on the bike, must be operating in a parallel (and faster) universe without a license. Please, guys, the tongue planted firmly in cheek really should be obvious. If it isn’t, assume that it is, and respond in kind. Then, if the guy really was serious (and a serious lunatic), he’ll still get the point. Too much serious bitching going on around here: everybody’s on edge. Must be the heat and humidity this time of year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeez, I really hope this original post was a joke.  At any rate, just because you run a 19:41 5K after resting doesn’t mean that someone else can’t run faster.  I remember reading somewhere or another that Mark Allen (one of the few with 2:45 im marathons) ran a 5K in 14:50 something.  Also of note odds are you won’t run a 2:45 marathon, even fully rested. Anyhow, keep training and maybe one day you will and then you’ll realize that there’s no hoax involved. Sorry for actual response if you were joking, Paul Drafting Sucks.  Keep tri-ing!

Response:

Jeez, I really hope this original post was a joke.  At any rate, just because you run a 19:41 5K after resting doesn’t mean that someone else can’t run faster.  I remember reading somewhere or another that Mark Allen (one of the few with 2:45 im marathons) ran a 5K in 14:50 something.  Also of note odds are you won’t run a 2:45 marathon, even fully rested. Anyhow, keep training and maybe one day you will and then you’ll realize that there’s no hoax involved. Sorry for actual response if you were joking, Paul Drafting Sucks.  Keep tri-ing!

Response:

                        Ironman Is a Hoax      I went for a 5 km. run last week. For a potential ironman that isn’t much, but I was recovering from road-rash and it was a "do my legs still work with all these scabs" type run. I planned to take it easy, but after 200 m. I realized two important things: my legs still worked, and I had a lot of energy left over from my recovery week. The net result was me running like a bat out of hell and setting a personal best of 19:41. What does this have to do with Ironman hoaxes? Allow me to continue.

    I ran 5 km. in 19:41, my pace being 3:56 minutes a kilometre. Now let us pretend I am a professional hoaxer, I mean triathlete. I would complete the marathon portion in around 2:45 hours, probably lower. That would put my pace at 3:55 minutes a kilometre. In other words, if I was a professional triathlete, I would be going faster during the marathon, after 3.8 km. swimming and 180 km. cycling, than I went during my 5 km. training run after a weeks rest. I find this completely unacceptable.

        If you are running a 5K in 19:41 then you are SLOW!!!! Obviously you are very jealous because you have not been training hard enough. These people who you say are hoax’s (PNF or Mark allen) have trained hard for YEARS!!!         Imagine someone who is just starting out running who’s PR for the 5K is 26 minutes. They would say that YOU are a hoax. How could someone run that fast? Obviously the course was shorter than 5K. How insulted you would be. You have trained hard to get that fast.         Perhaps you should train harder and longer and worry about your own training and performance and not that of others.         By the way, I train hard and long and your PR’s are my slow training days. Mabey someday you will improve and be good. Tri-Freak –                                      _                                       –    o        ’             –  __o       –    </_      `     ‘         –    <         – __/          /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft, they hammer"                                   2 Timothy 4:7

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Question:

Andy: I haven’t received official Reston results yet, but I did compete in the race.  The bike course was shorter and faster this year after the Hunter Station hill was cut out.  The course this year consisted of three loops (Twin Branches-Glade-Soapstone-Lawyers-Reston Parkway-Colts Neck-South Lakes-Twin Branches).  As you can imagine the finishing times were much faster.  My source is the Reston Local Newspaper Sports section (9/13 edition) which is not 100% reliable.  Also there was some difficulty in tabulating the results the day of the race — the awards ceremony started about one hour after the last participant crossed the finish line. Eric Sorensen won the race in 1:51:42 vs. his last year’s time of 2:00:38 followed by Tim Morris 1:57:26 and David Cascio 1:58:21.  As you can see, Eric smoked the field.  Kim McLaughlin was the first woman in 2:05:40 followed by Nancy Slayden 2:06:39 and Beth O’Connor 2:08:45.  The swim and run courses were the same as in previous years. The Bike Course:  Coming down the 3 mile South Lakes Drive stretch you could easily go over 30 mph most of the time.  The comparison for me was in my average speed this year (23.5mph )vs. last (22mph) on the bike.  I wouldn’t be surprised to see faster run times too since legs weren’t pushed as much on the bike.  My run was actually a little slower than last year. Race Management:  I heard no complaints about the management of the race which is usually a sign that it was run very well.  Kudos to Race Directors Bunny Bonnes, Jim DeRosiers, Mick Toman, Paula Lembke, et al. There was enough Papa Johns pizza for everyone to have a box to themselves.  Other goody hand outs:  water bottle, singlet, long sleeved denim shirt.  While waiting for the awards ceremony some of the local gals (aged 3-5) entertained the crowd by throwing keychains supplied by a local radio station to just about anyone who wanted them. Swim:  The swim was seeded according to self predicted swim time with about 75 per wave.  I think this worked out very well — with less people getting plowed over (like last year when all women were in the first wave including last finisher overall, Marge Stahl (64) who probably didn’t appreciate getting swamped by many swimmers.  There was some congestion near the exit of T1 onto Twin Branches.  As the fastest  bikers were coming down the hill, at the bottom of the hill,  later starters were entering the race.and almost immediately there is the 90 degree right turn onto Glade.  A special lane was coned off for protecting those just beginning the bike.  Apparently there were no accidents other than two guys knocking each other over as they both came out of T1 together. I heard no reports of runners going off course through the woods, so the marshalls there must have done their jobs well.  The shaded run and great weather also decreased the need for multiple aid stations on the run and bike although these were both there in sufficient numbers. Overall, I

Question:

<<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

Now I may be wrong but I thought that a qualification wether it be a degree, diploma or doctorate was merely a way of determining wether a person knew what they were talking about?  ( they had done the study). So who cares wether it’s doctor, Phsysician, tinker, taylor?  DOES HE KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT? I for one have enough confidence in my judgement (and for that matter not enough confidence in the variances of world qualifications standards) to make that judgement myself.  Who cares what letters follow!!!! GREG.J.ABBISS :: Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand ATTMAIL:             internet!iconz.co.nz!abbiss

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<snipped legal treatise…   I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that   this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to   triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a   considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect   consumers and to assist them in making choices.  OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC.

At the risk of appearing to defend both Dr. Mark J. and the medical profession, I’d like to enter this fray once again.   After all,  it was my post that questioned whether Dr. Maffetone could in fact call himself a "physician".  The fact of the matter is that he legally CANNOT call himself a "physician" in Canada or in Texas (1 state down… 49 to go <smile).  But it as Dr. Jenkins suggests, it goes deeper than that.  There are laws put in place to prevent _anyone_ from just calling themselves whatever they want and holding out that representation to the general public.  Surely, I could not just call myself a chiropractor and get away with it; more importantly, what kind of confidence could individuals who subscribe to that school of treatment expect from me if I could do that?   That’s why the law is there — for the protection of the general public including triathletes. Now as for the rest of your argument… <Sound of flamethrower firing up in the distance approaching….  What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone  who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer  to as medical school uses the title?

I did not see any thing other than mild hyperbole to suggest that Mark Jenkins has it "in" for Dr. Maffetone (although I must admit that I have no idea what his ideas in this specific instance are, BTW).   I interpreted the statement to be a clarification of fact that was missing from Dr. Maffetone’s counterpoint (since proven wrong for all of Canada and Texas, at least) to my earlier post.  Is it that you refuse to accept that  maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing  athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather  than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically  funded research?

Come again?  Are you suggesting that  ALL "academically funded research" is somehow corrupt?  By that logic, you would then be saying that any academically funded research for chiropractic is also corrupt.  Surely that is not the case.  But I’m sure you can document the fact that  all peer review and research is fatally flawed.  Maybe your sentiment here is better saved for  aerowheel tests.  The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they  receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their  faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise.

Here I have no argument with you or your logic.  If in fact, individuals are happy with the services they receive from trained, qualified and certified healthcare providers, then that individual alone should be the ultimate arbitrator.  But that is off the mark: remember that the question was what someone could call themselves in their representations to triathletes. What do you care if he  calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck?

See above. Last I noticed almost every top  professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate  therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to  alternative care after poor service with little positive result from  "traditional" medicine.

I too (although _definitely_ not a pro <chuckle) subscribe to so-called "alternate" therapies such as massage for a cervical disk problem.  Heck, the evidence may be anectodal, but it works for me!   But again, can you prove (perhaps via "academically funded or peer research" <G) that "almost all pros" (what is that sample size, anyway?) have arrived at the choice to use alternate therapies as a result of "poor service with little positive result from traditional medicine"? How many hours of nutrition are required in med  school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than  2% of the curriculum at most schools.

That’s _exactly_ why there is a RD (Registered Dietician) designation. Check out recent discussions in sci.med.  If some MD, DO, DC or whatever were to hold themselves out to be an RD without appropriate qualification, then perhaps they should be challenged.  I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of  late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to  our sport or the athletes he works with.

Zag, I don’t think that was the reason for Dr. J’s or my post.  Oh yes, as for your last comment above,… that’s the same reason I support Dr. Jenkins! Cordially yours on the scorched earth of r.s.t, Tom

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Dan, JJ, & Dr. Brug raise good points.  I agree with much of what they say, and add these further thoughts:   Titles do matter.  A title implies that one possesses an advanced degree of skill, knowledge, and accomplishment in a specialized field.  It says to the world, "I am an expert, I am ethical  - trust me." Yet, because we live in an imperfect world, there will always be those who take advantage of the public trust.  Thus, in order to ensure our own safety, we must challenge credentials.  If a person’s actual experience and education are worthy of a title, public scrutiny will bear this out. If a person’s actual experience and education are not worthy of a title, then that lack of experience and/or education should be revealed. It is practically impossible for the public to know the reputation and credentials of every doctor.  The only way the unknowing public can separate the good from the bad is through honest, rigorous, scrutiny. Such scrutiny is particularly important in the field of medicine because so much is at stake, namely the health, safety and welfare of the patients.  Good doctors realize this and welcome an open dialogue. As an attorney, I hold myself out as having a specialized skill and knowledge.  However, I also realize that there are both good and bad attorneys in the world, and that it is not always easy for the general public to discern the difference.  We all have degrees.  We all have advanced educations.  We all claim to be good at what we do.  However, some of us are clearly better and more ethical than others.  The only way for the public to discern among us to challenge us.  Ask us questions.  Be critical.  Don’t settle.  Any attorney worth his or her salt welcomes the opportunity to prove and defend his or her own credentials. It is fair and necessary to challenge Philip Maffetone’s credentials.  He holds himself out as a medical expert and he should expect scrutiny as to those credentials.  However, I do not believe that it is fair to criticize Maffetone for the publicity which he has been getting; the exposure is good for his business and, if I were him, I’d be happy to have it.  If there is any blame to be had, it lies with those who are giving him the publicity;  they decide which mug gets the press. By the way, Dan, if Triathlete offered you a cover story or two, would you balk at the exposure?:) As to Jenky, I agree with Dan: Jenky’s comments are always constructive, reasoned, and respectful.   His participation is an asset to the group. Cory H.  

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don’t refer to myself as an engineer, I don’t any license to do what I do, I don’t have an MBA, I don’t have a law degree, I sometimes pay my taxes late, I sometimes pay my vendors late, I have hair on my back, I occasionally smell bad, and I cuss alot when I’m mad.  Now, if you still choose to buy my wetsuit you’ve been forewarned.  I  would feel much, much more comfortable with Phil’s comments if there were similar qualifications attached.

Sorry to ruin a truely excellent post (which I totally agree with) but after hearing the above I think I may try to get my money back from my wetsuit, and not buy a QR bike….  :-) John (you did see the smiley, didn’t you?) K.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? Is it that you refuse to accept that maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research? The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to alternative care after poor service with little positive result from "traditional" medicine. How many hours of nutrition are required in med school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than 2% of the curriculum at most schools. I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with. ZAG

ZAG, First of all, I apologize to anyone who has misinterpreted my postings as an attack on Dr. Maffetone. They are not. I am not responsible for some of the rude things that others have said about him. I have not, in any way, criticized him or his profession. Essentially, there is no controversy or competition here — except what some people seem to want to create. I have addressed him and everyone else on this newsgroup in a professional manner. There are over 100 types of professionals deserving the term doctor, and I address all of them as "doctor" ; Veterinarians, chiropractors, osteopaths, Ph.D.s, M.D.s, optometrists, podiatrists, naturopaths, dentists, and others. Asking someone what kind of doctor they are is not the same thing as an attack on their credibility. Each week, a few patients will ask me what kind of doctor I am, where I trained, or other questions that might be perceived as "questioning my authority". If I got my hackles up every time this happened, I guess I would spend a lot of time with erect fur. It is simply an honest question, worthy of an honest answer — and not an emotional response. There really isn’t an issue about "traditional" vs. "non-traditional" medicine. I think too many people want to see the world as black and white, but it really is a collection of many shades of gray. I recognize that there are many health professionals from many disciplines who provide excellent care, and I am not so arrogant as to think that only M.D.s can provide quality health care. It may even surprise you to learn that I have referred patients to "non-traditional" practitioners when it was clear that it was appropriate for me to do so. If you have encountered pompous, arrogant physicians, I am sorry, but please do not stereotype me or my profession. I recognize that there are some complete jerks in my field, but that does not mean that all M.D.s are uncaring, selfish, pompous bastards. Prejudicial bias colors ones perceptions, and I guess some people will see what they want to see. Please don’t judge me based on the initials that follow my name. Finally, asking another professional detailed scientific questions and engaging in discussion is not a personal attack. I have certainly learned a lot from this interaction and I hope that others have as well. In our blind rush to get faster — heads down, joining the crowd — is it wrong for one or two people to stop and question where we are going? In my educational process, I have not been taught *what* to think, but rather that I *should*  think. I realize that I am nothing– a "nobody". I am a small voice, without all the accolades that are attached to some members of the inner sanctum of our sport, but I can still ask questions. If I don’t understand, please forgive me for asking, reading, thinking, and occasionally pointing out things that need clarification. I hope this clears the air a bit, but please don’t misinterpret the above. It was delivered in a relaxed, polite, conversational tone.                                         Mark A. Jenkins, M.D.

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I care.  And I’m glad Jenky cares.  There is one big difference between Phil and Jenky.  Phil is like me.  He has something to sell to the people in this newsgroup.  And therefore everyone here should be very wary of what I say, and what Phil says, because we are both hocking our wares. For that reason neither of us should be surprised if we get extra scrutiny, especially if it appears that what we are telling is not the whole story.

Damn right. That’s the heart of the matter. Also just because someone/anyone is an author, owns a modem, has friends on the inside, wins a race, gets  a lot of press  or wins an award from the bagman for the boys downtown network doesn’t mean the person is a hero, a star or a leader. So far from it in some cases. There’s  a lot of marketeers, kingmakers, agents and wheeler dealers out there and they try to influence the media which influences the public which gives the clients  bigger resumes and then bigger contracts. At times this network works with great success. Sometimes its at work right here. What you see, sometimes, isn’t really what is. JJ

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individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research?

Scientific research is generally an accumulative field of knowledge with contributions made by many investigators over a long period of time.  Each scientist’s work is dependent on other researchers, both contemporary and historically.  When an individual goes off on his/her own initiative, without benefit of peer criticism at seminars, colloqia, etc., and without being required to substantiate the significance of his/her intended research, the "scientist" is very likely to go off the shallow end and come up with some pretty funny voodoo.  A good deal of the advice in this newsgroup falls into that category, regardless of which soi-disant letters of achievement attach to the name.  Much of this advice is very effective.  Few people would doubt the efficacy of faith healing.  Faith healing does not benefit by peer review and academic funding.  In that sense, you are perfectly right. Ruth Kazez

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<<What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone <<who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer <<to as medical school uses the title? I have not seen Jenky refer to Phil in only but (generally) the most restrained way, considering the *serious* departure that Phil takes from Western Medicine.  While I, because of my egregious disrespect for anything and everything, richly deserve your sarcasm, it appears to me that Jenky has bent over backwards to restrain himself, and therefore does not deserve it (since he has wielded very little of it himself). <<Is it that you refuse to accept that <<maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing <<athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather <<than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically <<funded research? Although I doubt if Jenky sees himself in this position, Jenky for me is the medical information "gatekeeper" of this newsgroup.  You may fling your barbs at the foibles of "Western Medicine", but where would you be without it?  At the end of the day, I’ll take Jenky’s rigorous and scholarly approach over Phil’s speculations.  Phil may turn out to be right in much or most of what he says (or maybe not).  In any case, I greatly value Jenky as the opposing voice, just to put Phil’s ideas in a proper perspective. <<The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they <<receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their <<faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. I haven’t seen Jenky question either their right to seek his advice, or the overall quality of Phil’s advice.  I have only seen Jenky question Phil on those matters where there is a clear need for a question to be asked. <<What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? I care.  And I’m glad Jenky cares.  There is one big difference between Phil and Jenky.  Phil is like me.  He has something to sell to the people in this newsgroup.  And therefore everyone here should be very wary of what I say, and what Phil says, because we are both hocking our wares. For that reason neither of us should be surprised if we get extra scrutiny, especially if it appears that what we are telling is not the whole story. <<I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of <<late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to <<our sport or the athletes he works with. Phil "sounds" like he speaks with great authority and finality.  He is perceived as an "august presence" here in this newsgroup, because he isn’t just another joe like me and you, he sidles up to the term "physician", and we don’t question the judgement of physicians.  We swallow what they say lock, stock, and barrel, and suspend judgement.  Occasionally he posts a highly questionable piece of information which– because Phil *never* qualifies his statements with "it is my opinion" or "realize that what I say is questioned by others in the medical profession"– could be interpreted to be a belief that is not in any question.   I enjoy having Phil in this newsgroup, and value his opinions.  However I highly, highly value Jenky as a check from Western Medicine’s point of view.  Phil could relieve himself of most of the grief he gets here if he qualified his beliefs more often.  When I tell people in this newsgroup how to mount their cleats, I say up front that my formula is cult-like, and is not adhered to by 80% of the bike shop mechanics.  My beliefs are therefore set against the backdrop of what the "industry" believes.  I don’t refer to myself as an engineer, I don’t any license to do what I do, I don’t have an MBA, I don’t have a law degree, I sometimes pay my taxes late, I sometimes pay my vendors late, I have hair on my back, I occasionally smell bad, and I cuss alot when I’m mad.  Now, if you still choose to buy my wetsuit you’ve been forewarned.  I  would feel much, much more comfortable with Phil’s comments if there were similar qualifications attached. QRman

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 <<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry  territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s  self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree.  That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re  right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my  diploma says "physican."  Philip Maffetone

Dr. M, a clarification is in order for my earlier statement.  I did not have enough information to make the above statement regarding "all states".  However, you may be interested in the following information.  In Canada, only persons licenced by their respective  provincial boards (i.e. College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta) may use the terminlogy "physician" and/or "surgeon".  To become licenced by the board, the following requirements are needed; you must have an "approved MD degree from an accredited college [their words, not mine, BTW]"  or a PhD in an approved disciple (i.e. pyschology/psychiatry) and you must pass a two part LLMC C exam, administered by the Medical Council of Canada. In my home province this is goverend by the Medical Professions Act, a legislated statute. Further, practices such as the prescription of pharmaceuticals is restricted to "MD’s"  and is not available to many allied health professions such as chiropractors and phyical therapists.  As for a specialization in "sports medicine", no MD may describe themselves as a specialist without having the appropriate approval and certificate from the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, which, interestingly does _not_ offer or recognize a specialization in sports medicine.  Physicians, however, can advertise themselves as having a "special interest" [once again, the college's words] in sports injuries and medicine. Lest you think this is some kind of non-MD bashing, it was not intended to be that. I merely wanted to point out that there are usually (well founded, IMO) restrictions as to who can claim to be what.  I know many of the allied professions have high standards and that there are bound to be good and not-so-good in each and that healthcare providers other than "licenced MDs" are an important part of the triathlon (medical) scene. Of course, none of this _really_ matters to triathlon, does it? <wink Tom Ruta

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athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research?

Peer review, although not perfect, is a time-tested manner of separating garbage from valuable information.  As a matter of fact, peer review is precisely what goes on in this newsgroup.  Do you have some better means in mind for evaluating the validity of theories than the one which has been used for literally all of the scientific advances made? faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top

Speaking as someone who has spent the past 3.5 years working pretty damn hard towards obtaining a Ph.D., I care a great deal about someone misrepresenting him or herself.  For a more verbose rant on this subject, see my other recent post in this thread. I think Dr. Jenkin’s comment on this matter was completely reasonable. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps. OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? …

You guys gotta be sh**in’ me! FACT:  Maffetone states that physicians and D.C.’s are synoymous and his diploma says he’s a physician. FACT:  Previous Canadian poster states that D.C’s in Canada can’t use the term physicians. FACT:  Jenky wrote in that in Texas (and maybe other states) D.C.’s can’t use the term physician to describe themselves. FACT:  Here’s another case of someone making a general statement without checking the FACTS. The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise.

I’m sure this is the case, but this really doesn’t have anything to do with D.C. being synoymous with physicians. Frankly, I’m a more than a little tired of reading about Maffetone (good and bad).  Tim G. previously posted that he’s offended by Dr. Phil representing himself as a biochemist.  I’m sure I’m going to miss a few, but recently I’ve seen  Phil in the Wind Tunnel;  Phil & T. DeBoom Saga (funny but isn’t Phil Tim’s agent?); Phil as a Physician;  Phil as future TriFed President (Katy you probably thought I forgot that one);  BetaBars, PRBars and Phil.  D**n, maybe someone should call NBC, and we could start a mini-series! From a lot of the sigs, I know there are a lot of RSTers who have dedicated a signifcant portion of their lives to education.  One thing I’ve found is the more your learn (& research), the more you find out you don’t know (exactly).  Also, the more you study, the more clearly defined your boundaries of expertise become. My personal problem is that it appears that the triathlon media doesn’t realize Dr. Phil’s boundaries.  I’m not contesting the fact that Dr. Phil is very good in his area of training; however, it definitely does not make him an expert at many other aspects of triathlon.  Heck, you can call me "Dr", but I have trouble putting on a band-aid straight, so please don’t call me "physician", "nutritionist", "aerospace engineer", "sports agent", "NGB prez"… Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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As I’ve said before, what I object to is the use of the title "Dr." as a means of implying expertise not in chiropractic, which Maffetone is trained in, but in biochemistry and nutrition, which are the subjects upon which most of his reputation is based.   [Flame ON] Further, no one has bothered (or perhaps no one cares to admit) to explain whether the amount of advanced training which a chiropractor receives is comparable to that required for possession of an M.D. or Ph.D..  I will, of course, go find out on my own at some point, but the deafening silence on this matter suggests to me that my suspicions are correct, and that training for chiropractic is not of the same depth as that of the usual "Dr."’s. [Flame OFF] pretty mild, really… For the record, I once again state that I do not think that lack of the title "Dr." invalidates one’s opinions on areas outside or inside one’s area of claimed expertise.  But to my ear, the weight given to the opinion of a professionally trained person is greater than that given to someone who just happens to have an opinion. Hell, as long as I’m ranting (I can feel the caffeine rush starting NOW!!!!), why is Maffetone’s opinion given so much weight anyway? Triathlete’s "Coach of the Year" (great source of an endorsement, eh?) was pictured with his three stars at Kona this year.  Well, think about it, Allen crapped out at the Berlin Marathon and didn’t reach his goal at IM Germany, Pigg was well down in the results at Kona, and Tim DeBoom didn’t even start.  Not what I would term a stellar record for the charges of someone thought by many to be the ultimate coach of ultra-endurance athletes. Obviously, I’m slanting things here, but still, I don’t think the cult of personality which has risen around Maffetone is a good thing.  Chances are that he personally is a decent, well intentioned person, but since he seems very selective about which posts he responds to, I don’t feel that I’ve gotten to see that side of him. The hype surrounding him, which must be at least condoned by Maffetone himself, seems unjustified in many respects.  If his presence in the sport has done you some good, that’s great, but I am at a loss to understand why so many seem willing to overlook the oddities in this whole saga. I guess a good question would also be why this whole thing irks me so much… Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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First of all, I’ll put my bias on the table:  I have a visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called Dr. or referred to as a physician.  And I have problems with Maffetone presenting himself as an expert on biochemistry, which I think he often does.  In the past, I’ve felt that the title "Dr." when used in front of Maffetone has constituted an attempt to imply a level of training that simply isn’t there.  This is not to say that Maffetone’s ideas are not worthy of respect; clearly there is a lot of empirical evidence in the form of the athletes who follow his advice that he is on to something important for endurance athletes. That said, I would be willing to lose my visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called "Dr." if someone would convince me that the training necessary to become a chiropractor is comparable to that required to get an M.D. or Ph.D..  I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that the levels of training necessary for the two disciplines was not comparable.  Anyone care to shatter my ignorance? Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First of all, I’ll put my bias on the table:  I have a visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called Dr. or referred to as a physician.  And I have problems with Maffetone presenting himself as an expert on biochemistry, which I think he often does.  In the past, I’ve felt that the title "Dr." when used in front of Maffetone has constituted an attempt to imply a level of training that simply isn’t there.  This is not to say that Maffetone’s ideas are not worthy of respect; clearly there is a lot of empirical evidence in the form of the athletes who follow his advice that he is on to something important for endurance athletes. That said, I would be willing to lose my visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called "Dr." if someone would convince me that the training necessary to become a chiropractor is comparable to that required to get an M.D. or Ph.D..  I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that the levels of training necessary for the two disciplines was not comparable.  Anyone care to shatter my ignorance?

Timothy: I don’t know that I disagree with you entirely but I do have another point of view on the concept of MD’s deserving the "title" and DC’s not. While there are DC’s who certainly overstep their bounds, the AMA type medical profession is no less guilty and in fact, the highly trained MD’s get to bury their mistakes while a DC may have to only account for the occassional stomach ache or sore neck. MD’s should have more training. The scope of their ability to invade the human body far exceeds the scope of the DC. Please do not read that I am in favor of the DC who claims to be able to cure cancer, only that I have been an alternate medicine patient for twenty five years and I am generally more comfortable on the chiropractic table that in the office of an MD. "You know the difference between a doctor and God? God doesn’t want to be a doctor." With apologies to Mark Jenkins. ZAG

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writes: <<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

Philip, I hate to burst your bubble here, but the designation of "physician" can only be applied to M.D s  and  D.O.s — both have equivalent training. There are laws to this effect which govern identification via signs, pamphlets, stationery, letterheads, signature, or any other means of professional identification. The following is an excerpt from the Healing Art Identification Act — Texas Rev. Civ. Stat Ann. art. 4590e. " If licensed by the Texas Board of Chiropractic Examiners, the following identification is proper: 1. Chiropractor 2. Doctor, D.C. 3. Doctor of Chiropractic 4. D.C. " I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps.                                         Mark A. Jenkins, M.D..

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there are DC’s who certainly overstep their bounds, the AMA type medical profession is no less guilty and in fact, the highly trained MD’s get to bury their mistakes while a DC may have to only account for the occassional stomach ache or sore neck. MD’s should have more training. The scope of their ability to invade the human body far exceeds the scope of the DC. Please do not read that I am in favor of the DC who claims to be able to cure cancer, only that I have been an alternate medicine patient for twenty five years and I am generally more comfortable on the chiropractic table that in the office of an MD.

Hey, don’t get me wrong, I have a lot less faith now than I used to in the ability of MD’s to treat people as opposed to human bodies.  And I agree that there are substantial problems with the medical profession and the AMA in particular.  However, that doesn’t go to the point of my original post. The problems with "real" doctors is fodder for a different thread.  At the moment I’m very curious whether this one will go, and I’ll pass on taking up the gauntlet concerning MD’s. BTW, I don’t know how many MD’s are in this group, but the only one I can recall is Dr. Jenkins.  If one judged the profession by his posts, I, for one, would have a much higher opinion of MD’s. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Philip, I hate to burst your bubble here, but the designation of "physician" can only be applied to M.D s  and  D.O.s — both have equivalent training. There are laws to this effect which govern identification via signs, pamphlets, stationery, letterheads, signature, or any other means of professional identification. The following is an excerpt from the Healing Art Identification Act — Texas Rev. Civ. Stat Ann. art. 4590e. " If licensed by the Texas Board of Chiropractic Examiners, the following identification is proper: 1. Chiropractor 2. Doctor, D.C. 3. Doctor of Chiropractic 4. D.C. " I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps.

OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? Is it that you refuse to accept that maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research? The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to alternative care after poor service with little positive result from "traditional" medicine. How many hours of nutrition are required in med school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than 2% of the curriculum at most schools. I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with. ZAG

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<<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s   self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe   you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

Touche! By the way doc, what is cranial manipulation???  I’m just very curious as   to what exactly this is.  In fact, when I mentioned it to a colleague at   work, he said "I don’t know either, but it sounds like something you   need." Marty Miller (aka The Noodle) Proprietor of "The Triathlete’s Web" http://iac.net/~miller/triathlon-home.html

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Zagarino writes: I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with.

Hear, hear (or is it, here, here)! Let’s quit dumping on Phil. I have two comments to add in support of chiropractors who identify themselves as doctors. 1.) When I lived in Boulder, my favorite chiropractor was Dr. Otsie Stowell. I never questioned his training; he was a titled professional in his field, and I got results from what he did for me. There are dozens and dozens of chiropractors in any community who list themselves as "Dr. Whoever," and I’ve never heard their credentials questioned to the extent everyone has grilled Dr. Phil Maffetone. 2.) Thousands of exercise physiologists who have Ph.D.’s are also titled Dr. Thousands of others with Ph.D.’s in other academic fields are called Dr. Come on, everyone, the use of Dr. indicates a high degree of training in one’s field. Let’s give Dr. Maffetone the respect he deserves. Perhaps I didn’t state any of the above very eloquently, but I’ve just been reading this thread a while and simmering, because I know what Phil can do and has done. Katherine Williams

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 As Dave Letterman would say, "what’s the deal here?"

Can you say "sham"… I thought you could!  Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no  relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Two weeks  ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud  to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr.  Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that  it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

Can your say "practising medicine without a licence?"  I _knew_ you could!  In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. Chiropractors, though,  to the best of my knowledge can call themselves Doctor everywhere. Plus  there are enough subtlties in advertising that allow such things to occur.  For example, in Canada you can’t call yourself a physical therapist/physiotherapist unless you are registered with the provincial college; but you can be a joe/josephine off the street and call yourself a "thereapist" with interest in physical sports. Caveat emptor. Tom

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<<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

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Dr. M…. Touche…..very well said. Dana

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<<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

This is just a reminder for "buyers-to-beware"… Facts       D.C.  equals      physician  (according to this post)       M.D.  equals      physician       D.C.  NOT EQUALS  M.D. Gee, here’s another case where logic (and the transitive property) doesn’t apply.  I don’t really have a too strong of an opinion, but for those of you who might be uncomfortable with _certain types_ of physicians, just make sure their credentials are suitable to you. Here’ my problem…       M.D.                     NOT EQUALS   sports physician       D.C.                     NOT EQUALS   sports physician       M.D. + special training  EQUALS       sports physician       D.C. + special training  EQUALS (?)   sports physician       D.C. sports physcian     NOT EQUALS   M.D. sports physician For the last case, remember the two individuals have different backgrounds, philosophies and skills.  IMHO, its like comparing apples and oranges.  So, if you want apples, don’t go looking in Florida’s orange groves…    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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As Dave Letterman would say, "what’s the deal here?" Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"]. Then, a little later, I get the May Inside Triathlon, and see ads for [insert trumpet sounds here] a new energy bar, the BetaBar, being promoted by the same Dr. Philip Maffetone. "What’s the deal here?" Then I turn to the "Wingnut Wendy" interview. Here’s what Wendy Ingraham, key PR*Bar endorser, has to say in response to the question "How are you going to be training differently this season?": "That’s hopefully what Phil [Maffetone], a few other people and I can figure out. Apparently, it is all going to start with rebalancing my diet. Last year, I don’t think I felt as good physically as I did in ‘93. Even though my results in ‘94 were better, I just didn’t feel as good. I think somewhere along the line I got off track with my diet." Excuse me, Wendy, but wasn’t ‘94 the year that you were all over the pages of our magazines, telling us how great the PR*Bar diet was? "What *is* the deal here?" Sign me,  Curious in Cupertino

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<<<Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Let me say it for the record, I am not with PR Nutrition (as of the first of the year). I am now with BetaBar, a new energy bar with a different formula. <<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"]. You’ll have to ask PR Nutrition why they’re still sending out literature that’s over a year old. [Yes, chiropractors are considered, and properly referred to as, physicians.] <<<Then, a little later, I get the May Inside Triathlon, and see ads for [insert trumpet sounds here] a new energy bar, the BetaBar, being promoted by the same Dr. Philip Maffetone. <<<Then I turn to the "Wingnut Wendy" interview. Here’s what Wendy Ingraham, key PR*Bar endorser, has to say in response to the question "How are you going to be training differently this season?": "That’s hopefully what Phil [Maffetone], a few other people and I can figure out. Apparently, it is all going to start with rebalancing my diet. I have consulted for many companies, and also – as a separate practice – treat and train athletes. The two don’t always match, nor do they need to. In many sports, I may even train two athletes who are fierce competitors of each other. It’s never been a problem for me or the athlete (i.e. Pigg & Allen). Philip Maffetone

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