Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very few bikers will do the intense anaerobic workouts like runners do.. which is why I say the (untrained) biker would likely lose to the runner in short distance races which required extreme intensity. I find that on easy rides I will go anaerobic at points where I never will go anaerobic on an easy ride. And I would think that if you took a random 30 people who ride for exercise and a random 30 people who run for exercise you would find that the bike riders go anaerobic much more often. I’ve found since I’ve started riding that my finishing kick has improved dramatically. I think a fair amount of the improvement is from my increased pain threshold.
When I rode a lot I did lots of sprints and very short bursts of speed. Now that I run I pretty much just maintain a high tempo but not intervals. I suppose the reason is if I did this running I would have to stop and walk where riding you can just sit up for a couple of minutes. Also anaerobic ability is much more important in bike racing where there are breakaways, sudden accelerations etc where running you are just basically just time trialing and don’t need those quick bursts of speed to close a gap.
Response:
For the competitive multisport athlete(triathlete, duathlete) I think that there are a number of paralells and similarities between running and cycling. The difference is that for the untrained runner it is difficult to go out and run, say an hour even at an easy pace. Where as for the untrained cyclist, if the terrain is not too demanding, it is not that hard to go out and ride for an hour at an easy pace. The reason for this is that cycling is not a full weight bearing activity and there is the mechcanical advantage of having gears on the bike. Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very few bikers will do the intense anaerobic workouts like runners do.. which is why I say the (untrained) biker would likely lose to the runner in short distance races which required extreme intensity. I find that on easy rides I will go anaerobic at points where I never will go anaerobic on an easy ride. And I would think that if you took a random 30 people who ride for exercise and a random 30 people who run for exercise you would find that the bike riders go anaerobic much more often. I’ve found since I’ve started riding that my finishing kick has improved dramatically. I think a fair amount of the improvement is from my increased pain threshold. When I rode a lot I did lots of sprints and very short bursts of speed. Now that I run I pretty much just maintain a high tempo but not intervals. I suppose the reason is if I did this running I would have to stop and walk where riding you can just sit up for a couple of minutes. Also anaerobic ability is much more important in bike racing where there are breakaways, sudden accelerations etc where running you are just basically just time trialing and don’t need those quick bursts of speed to close a gap.
Response:
One group that could probably give some empiric evidence on this matter are triathletes. I think that most triathletes would agree that when they concentrate on running that there bike performance falls off and vice versa. This speaks to Mike’s statement that "specificity rules."
Last spring I went from being just a runner to triathlete. During the spring I concentrated on running, specifically the mile, I was running trackwork 2-3 times a week and riding 2 days a week. Since I was just starting riding I was ok and improved a fair amount. From my running base I was ok endurance wise but wasn’t that sharp in sprints and even hill climbs. It riding wasn’t specific you would think that my speedwork would help me with speed and strength on the bike. My spring culminated with a mile race (5:00 with a 2:20 final 800,) a 17:46 5k in late may, and I did a triathlon in which I averaged 18.6 on a hilly 40k course. During the summer (may to early august) I concentrated on riding. I rode two hard 55 milers which where more tempo rides then endurance, a hilly 25 mile hammer ride and an easy 25-40 mile ride weekly. With 4 days or so of running with one day being a long day (8 or so miles) one week and a 5k race the next week. As the summer progressed my running form deteriorated and my biking improved greatly. I was probably spending more time training, so it wasn’t that I was training less and losing aerobic base. My 5k times went from high 17s to the high 19s. My biking ability improved inversely I was able to go from 18.6mph for a 40k race to close to 22mph on an equally hilly 40k. My short distance sprinting also improved and I sometimes was able to pull out a decent group sprint. My climbing improved the most. There were two big climbs that where contested on the weekend rides and I usually was one of the top 3 (out of about 12) by the end of the summer. I was getting good at holding a hard effort for 5-15 minutes. Probably some the gain was from better handling and the like but most was just better cycling fitness. I thought that my riding would have really helped my running as I had problems holding effort while running. I didn’t have that problem by the end of the summer on a bike. But the ability didn’t transform over to running. An interesting thing was that at the end of the summer my running endurance was about the same as it was at the beginning of the summer. For my first long run at the end of the summer (mid august) I was able to hold 7:45s for 12 miles and feel decent. Also I did an all out 400 and was only 3 secs slower then an all out 400 I ran at the beginning of the summer. So biking didn’t cause me to loose raw speed. What I did lose was the ability to hold race pace for distances between 1 mile and 10k, the distances most of us race. In these distances I think that you have to have the specificity of running in order to run times that are indicative of your aerobic ability. Since mid August I’ve been running a fair amount in training for a marathon (for me 45+ miles with the last month and a half at 55-65 miles) and have finally been able to race decently in one of the two races I’ve run so far. Its now that I’m able to see the benefits of the riding. Although I haven’t done a track work since I’ve started back to school I’ve been able to run what I consider a decent 10k. My ability to hold effort for 30 mins or so that I gained from riding has allowed me to run a 6 min paced 10k. Its not what my 5k times say I should be able to run… but considering the I haven’t been doing any speed work I’m happy to be able to run a 10k at a minute to a minute and a half faster then my average training pace. I guess what I’ve tried to say is: 1. Specificity counts – You can’t expect to be able to continue to run at a certain level if your not training enough in that area. You cant continue to run at say a 17:45 5k level even if you don’t lose any fitness if you don’t run enough. 2. There is cross over when adequately trained – I get the benefit from riding in my running when I run enough. 3. There is some synergy – I know that if I rode 4 days a week and ran 4 days a week with a speed and long run in each I would be able to compete at an equal level in each i.e.: I could run 17:45 5k and also ride decently. Matt
Response:
Bit tricky to compare the term ‘riding a bike’ with running. Sure most anybody, even kids, without training could ‘ride a bike’ for an hour or so, given the motivation. But then again they could also walk for an hour or so, if they were so disposed. Crawling along on a bike is more comparable to walking. Trying to push it on a bike is a lot more demanding. The difference with a bike is that if it gets too hard you can slow *right* down. With running you can only go so slowly before you’re better off walking. Miles You do have to admit that an average runner could easily just hop on a bike having never done so before and ride for an hour. An hour is not a particularly long time for a bike ride. Little kids can do it without formal training. I think most anyone, athlete or otherwise, could ride a bike for an hour.
– "Focus. Relaxed Form. Stay smooth. Flow. Breathe." – gapo ‘98 Cut the .over.the.rainbow if you prefer to reply by email
Response:
Very few bikers will do the intense anaerobic workouts like runners do.. which is why I say the (untrained) biker would likely lose to the runner in short distance races which required extreme intensity. Runners can easily handle the intensity of a brief bike race because running overall is much more intense than biking.. even at relatively moderate paces.
We really need to define who and what we’re talking about here if we want to make any sense. You seem to be changing definitions as we go along. If you’re saying that a trained runner can beat an untrained biker in a bike race, well, doh. No kidding. Trained individuals should be able to beat any untrained person in any sport requiring cardio-vascular fitness and muscle endurance. A trained biker would also outrun an untrained runner in a run, simply based on cardio-vascular fitness. That’s a no brainer and really isn’t worthy of discussion. But I think most of us interpreted what you said as comparing similarly trained individuals in their respective disciplines. In that case, specificity counts and each will win their discipline. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03
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Very few bikers will do the intense anaerobic workouts like runners do.. which is why I say the (untrained) biker would likely lose to the runner in short distance races which required extreme intensity.
I find that on easy rides I will go anaerobic at points where I never will go anaerobic on an easy ride. And I would think that if you took a random 30 people who ride for exercise and a random 30 people who run for exercise you would find that the bike riders go anaerobic much more often. I’ve found since I’ve started riding that my finishing kick has improved dramatically. I think a fair amount of the improvement is from my increased pain threshold. Runners can easily handle the intensity of a brief bike race because running overall is much more intense than biking.. even at relatively moderate paces.
While riding in a pack its it difficult to slow down and once you break contact your out of the race. A runner may be a decent time trialist for a beginner. However, in a bike race the runner would probably not have the mental stamina to hold on to the wheel in front of them. And would very likely back off thinking that they can catch up later on. However in a bike race once you lost the draft your out of the race. I agree that on average running is more intense then riding. However while riding the range of intensity is exponentially greater. You’ll go from easily riding to the equivalent of 400m pace and back down to the easy pace. Matt
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You do have to admit that an average runner could easily just hop on a bike having never done so before and ride for an hour.
An hour is not a particularly long time for a bike ride. Little kids can do it without formal training. I think most anyone, athlete or otherwise, could ride a bike for an hour. – Lumpy — World’s Ugliest Cables http://www.digitalcartography.com/cables.shtml ~ Colorado Front Range Repeaters – Maps & Aerial Views http://www.digitalcartography.com/repeaters.htm
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I think that most triathletes would agree that when they
concentrate on running that there bike performance falls off and vice versa. This speaks to Mike’s statement that "specificity rules."< I can testify to the accuracy of this statement having trained for duathlons and focused on the run this year. My run times improved significantly but my bike splits went into the toilet. Someone suggested that runners in general workout significantly harder than cyclists. I’d suggest that person go out on a training ride with cat 1/2 racers and get a "taste" of just how hard a cycling workout can get. Earlier this year I experienced such a ride looking down at my odometer reading 33 mph+ for almost 15 minutes into a headwind before getting blown off the pack. Their idea of "fun" was 40-50 miles at this heart pounding pace. It was enough to convert me into a runner<g!
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You do have to admit that an average runner could easily just hop on a bike having never done so before and ride for an hour. The same could not be said for the opposite.
Exactly. You summed it up better than I. The only problem the runner would encounter on long rides is the back and butt aches from the seat which takes a while to get used to.. but that doesn’t count for purposes of this discussion. The average cyclist could not run for an hour without stopping. I remember when I first started running although I could ride a racing bike at 20mph for 2 hours I could not even run 2 miles slowly without getting out of breath. Even riding fast on a bike I usually have my mouth closed and it just doesn’t seem very aerobic, it has more to do with leg muscles.
For most bicyclists, riding is mainly an earobic activity with the focus on distance. Bikers care about increasing distance much more than they do increasing their times and speed. Or more specifically… while even bikers may want to ride faster… very few bikers will actually train the proper way (like most runners do). Very few bikers will do the intense anaerobic workouts like runners do.. which is why I say the (untrained) biker would likely lose to the runner in short distance races which required extreme intensity. Runners can easily handle the intensity of a brief bike race because running overall is much more intense than biking.. even at relatively moderate paces.
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Now if you were to bring this back into the context of my example, which is short to middle distance (ie: lets say a 1 – 3/5 mile bike race at extreme high intensity
middle distance bike race?The only bikers that race that distances are velo racers.Most bikers that win those types of races do not remotely resemble runners.They are usually heavier than average with most having very heavy leg development.The point being that pure power will win most ever time.You only get good at what you train. (assuming that bicyclist does not do alot of anaerobic training.. which most bicyclists dont… unlike runners who do).
What exactly are we comparing.Runner(people who race),fitness joggers(people who never set foot on a track) vs. bikers who just ride in the park?If so,then you are right.However I have that in most running races the average time is slowing.Unlike running, where although people do it for fun…. the motivation is primarily fitness and runners are often alot more serious about getting in shape.
It sounds like most big running fields(peachtree 10K, NYC Marathon,LA marathon) are in it just for fun too. A large percentage of runners may enter one or more races during their lifetime. A very small percentage of bicyclists will enter races
You are right but most could care less how fast they finish,which means seriously(anaerobic work).We could use the same logic that would come to the @20% of bikers really training. Bike racing just isn’t as popular as running races are
True Why? Dont know. probably because most bicyclists are just not as serious about racing..
No,just to expensive and not enough racing.Plus weather doesn’t cooperate. Hence, most bikers are in fairly poor anaerobic shape and have little stamina and thats why runners, I think, can often beat a biker on the bike in brief high intensity race.
So we’re down to the serious runners vs. the serious bikers and the old saying that you get good at what you train.In a bike race,most of the time the biker will win. Randy+Sue GFT 95,97——-98! "no good deed goes unpunished"-Quark
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For most bicyclists, riding is mainly an earobic activity with the focus on distance. Bikers care about increasing distance much more than they do increasing their times and speed. Or more specifically… while even bikers may want to ride faster… very few bikers will actually train the proper way (like most runners do). Very few bikers will do the intense anaerobic workouts like runners do..
It seems to me you guys are drawing the wrong analogy. The bicyclists you are describing would be best compared to a walking or hiking club. The runners you describe would be best compared to bicyclists who race. I know lots of people who can and do walk/hike for miles but would be hard pressed to do it faster (i.e.- run). Spend a little time over at rec.bicycles.racing before claiming that bikers don’t know how to train. The reason more runners participate in races than do cyclists is that there are more foot races (easier to stage, less disruption/liability issues), and all you really need to footrace is a pair of shoes and an attitude. Bicycle racing requires a reasonable large financial investment, a lot of time, and willingness to accept the fact that you are likely to suffer significant skin loss if you do if very often. Even participation in organized but non-competitive cycle rides requires you accept the above conditions. Now, for my personal data points. My first effort at running came at the end of a season of bike racing. Yes, I found it difficult to run any distance the first week or two, but by the end of the second week I was running for 60 minutes (which of course lead to a whole host of problems). The reason a dedicated cyclist finds it difficult to run for any length of time is because it is a different set of muscles/motions/pounding, not because they are any less capable of anaerobic activity. I personally have done sprint workouts on a bike and driven myself past the point of collapse – if I was standing on my feet. But as I was just balancing on the bike I could roll around until I recovered and could dismount if so desired. I can’t say any of the 200 or 400 running interval workouts I do have allowed me to explode myself so grandly as intervals on a bike… Peter Thorsness __o ._o Dept. of Molecular Biology _ <._ / //. University of Wyoming ( )/ ( ) | Laramie, WY 82071-3944 \ http://w3.uwyo.edu/~thorsnes/per/ptbike.html http://w3.uwyo.edu/~thorsnes/per/ptwebpage.html
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Now 4 years later I fixed up my bike so I could ride it on rest days. The interesting thing is that when I go for a bike ride now I am averaging between 23-25mph and I am not really going that hard because they are rest days.
So how come you’re not a Pro? Sorry, but if you’re doing 23-25 mph on easy rest days, you could be making millions in Europe. Mike "Are you SURE about that average speed?" Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Aww, c’mon, Hoffman. Specificity of training will win out every time. I’m not sure where you’ve made your "observations" – perhaps the same place your sub-16 5K 80 year old hangs out? After running all winter, it takes me weeks to get my biking legs back to where I have any speed. If your theory was correct, I’d be able to jump on the bike in March and beat a pure biker in a 30 mile race – and that is pure BS. My legs would go at about 8. VO2 Max is not the determining factor – specific muscle strength and endurance is. Which is why specificity rules. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03 I have to agree with Mike in a big way. A well-trained runner will beat a cylist in a foot race, and a well-trained cyclist will beat a runner in a cyling race of pretty much any distance.
You do have to admit that an average runner could easily just hop on a bike having never done so before and ride for an hour. The same could not be said for the opposite. The average cyclist could not run for an hour without stopping. I remember when I first started running although I could ride a racing bike at 20mph for 2 hours I could not even run 2 miles slowly without getting out of breath. Even riding fast on a bike I usually have my mouth closed and it just doesn’t seem very aerobic, it has more to do with leg muscles. Whereas you don’t need to run very fast to really be breathing hard. I believe a well trained runner could beat a well trained cyclist at a distance which does not require endurance training, obviously not in every case. I would say a runner could beat a cyclist who was aerobically fit but did not have very strong legs. This would allow the runner to spin a easy gear fast which requires more aerobic fitness than leg muscle. If the cyclist is time trialing mashing a 53×12 the skinny runner will not have a chance. I would say the chance of a cyclist beating a runner are close to zero. Even if the cyclist had a lean body type the pounding and bad running mechanics would do them in. This is not to say that there might not be some athletes out there for whom this might not be true, but they would definitely be outside the norm. And as for Dave who gave his own personal example of being able to now go easy at 23-25 mph after he started running compared to 18-20 mph previously, he is either putting us on or rides only down hill. For the non-cyclists here on rec.running, please be advised that averaging 23-25 mph is HAULING ASS!
Well I suppose easy is relative. It is easy as there is not the pounding as their is with running and my heart rate and breathing rate are considerably lower than when I am running. The speed I was maintaining was on the flats. I think it is due to increased fitness from running and when I quit serious cycling I weighed 140 and now I weigh 155. I also run faster at 155 than I did at 140. The weight gain is all muscle and a heavier more muscular cyclist will go faster on the flats due to a higher max power output than a light skinny cyclist, the hills are another story. One group that could probably give some empiric evidence on this matter are triathletes. I think that most triathletes would agree that when they concentrate on running that there bike performance falls off and vice versa. This speaks to Mike’s statement that "specificity rules."
I haven’t noticed that but I have noticed that as I have done more and more hard cycling lately my running speed and endurance have gone down. It is very hard mentally and physically to go from cycling which is very gentle on the body to running. Even when very worn out and tired from running I feel fresh when I get on a bike, it is definitely a good cross training tool.
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Aww, c’mon, Hoffman. Specificity of training will win out every time. I’m not sure where you’ve made your "observations" – perhaps the same place your sub-16 5K 80 year old hangs out?
Now now.. thats not what I said about the 80 year old. Besides, you might have already seen my post with the various web links to seniors records for various distances from 1 mile TT’s to 10k. That should pretty much have proved my point.. If not… scan Dejanews, I dont remember what my message was titled though… you’ll have to search a bit. After running all winter, it takes me weeks to get my biking legs back to where I have any speed. If your theory was correct, I’d be able to jump on the bike in March and beat a pure biker in a 30 mile race – and that is pure BS.
Well, if you consider a 30 mile race to be a "middle distance" high intensity bike race and done at VO2 max or nearso, then I darned well salute you because you’d whip my butt clear off the road. (first off, as my first message states… I wasn’t referring to "racers", but rather more causal riders and runners). 30 miles to me is pretty much an endurance race utilizing mostly aerobic energy… In which case, the cyclist will pretty much always have the edge, because unlike runners… most cyclists (even some racers) tend to lean to intense long distance aerobic. Now if you were to bring this back into the context of my example, which is short to middle distance (ie: lets say a 1 – 3/5 mile bike race at extreme high intensity..). yes I bet a runner would have a darned good shot at beating a bicyclist (assuming that bicyclist does not do alot of anaerobic training.. which most bicyclists dont… unlike runners who do). This gets to the point of what I was saying… Bicyclists overall are not like runners. Not at all. Runners train much smarter than bicyclists do. In fact, I think runners even know alot more about training than do most bicyclists.. I mean, you say VO2 max or lactate threshold to many (if not most) bicyclists you will draw pretty much a blank expression.. Most bicyclists choose the sport for fun (and fitness of course). Unlike running, where although people do it for fun…. the motivation is primarily fitness and runners are often alot more serious about getting in shape. A large percentage of runners may enter one or more races during their lifetime. A very small percentage of bicyclists will enter races.. Bike racing just isn’t as popular as running races are.. (Why? Dont know. probably because most bicyclists are just not as serious about racing.. They just like to get go outdoors and cruise for an hour or two to relieve stress.. take a ride in the park, etc.. If you examine the demographics of any of the bike organizations in the country.. you’ll probably find that in most bigger clubs, only a small fraction of the guys are speed demons or active racers.. the rest are middle aged folks who have no intention of training intensely. Therefore, the emphasis of most bikers is on the ability to do long rides. The goal of most cyclists regardless of age is to eventually be able to ride farther and easier. You dont see too many cyclists doing 10 x 1km criteriums like you’d see runners doing track work. Hence, most bikers are in fairly poor anaerobic shape and have little stamina and thats why runners, I think, can often beat a biker on the bike in brief high intensity race. Heres where I draw my main example from.. I regularly cross train with a friend of mine. He does 15 minute 5kilometers.. He basically blows me away in running, no contest… But when we get on the bike its more complicated (I’m a better biker than runner).. In short all-out sprints around 200 meters, I beat him as I now have a 35 mile an hour sprint (I’m no world class sprinters.. but thats pretty decent for the average joe) But then we get into the medium distances.. I do 1 – 5k criteriums on the bike at very high intensity…In that event he beats me every time… because.. well… hes in better shape by far in terms of VO2 max, "stamina", "speed-endurance" or however ya want to phrase it.. Then we get to long distances aerobic races.. (Say anything over 15-20 miles) and I blow him away, especially if there are hills on the course because over long distances… specific muscles strength, endurance, aerobic capcity, etc.. become much more of a factor than does your "stamina" or vo2 max ability.
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Hoffman compares apples and oranges.
Thats what cross-training is about my fellow poster; your so-called "apples and oranges"… The only way to compare the two then, is to compare "apples and oranges". No shit that a runner would outrun a cyclist on a foot race. A cyclist will out ride a runner on a bike likewise.
No, not necessarily, nor is that what I said. Distance and intensity of the race as well as training styles with respect to muscle recruitment play a great role in the who can beat who game. Cyclists can most often beat runners in short bike races through raw leg power… but in "middle distances" its been my observation that runners have the vast edge on the bike because of much greater VO2 max ability. Then when you get past the middle distances and move again to the very long distances, one again cyclists have the advantage because VO2 max isnt an issue but rather muscles trained for endurance on the bike are…. All in all…. your average cyclist (ie: not a racer) has a pretty low VO2 max and cannot take the anaerobic punishments that a runner can. Hence, I think they’de lose a middle distance race on the bike against a runner a large percentage of the time.
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…Cyclists can most often beat runners in short bike races through raw leg power… but in "middle distances" its been my observation that runners have the vast edge on the bike because of much greater VO2 max ability…
I sense nonsense, hoffman. I’m not a runner but a cyclist. I’d have to guess that given the same training levels between runners and cyclists (novice, intermed, master etc) a biker will beat a runner every time in a bike race. A runner will beat a biker every time in a foot race. You are asking one type of athlete to compete in the other type’s event. Pretty clear to me who would win. Good bikers don’t make good runners. Good runners don’t make good bikers.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hoffman compares apples and oranges. Thats what cross-training is about my fellow poster; your so-called "apples and oranges"… The only way to compare the two then, is to compare "apples and oranges". No shit that a runner would outrun a cyclist on a foot race. A cyclist will out ride a runner on a bike likewise. No, not necessarily, nor is that what I said. Distance and intensity of the race as well as training styles with respect to muscle recruitment play a great role in the who can beat who game. Cyclists can most often beat runners in short bike races through raw leg power… but in "middle distances" its been my observation that runners have the vast edge on the bike because of much greater VO2 max ability. Then when you get past the middle distances and move again to the very long distances, one again cyclists have the advantage because VO2 max isnt an issue but rather muscles trained for endurance on the bike are…. All in all…. your average cyclist (ie: not a racer) has a pretty low VO2 max and cannot take the anaerobic punishments that a runner can. Hence, I think they’de lose a middle distance race on the bike against a runner a large percentage of the time.
I tend to agree that the aerobic benefits are far less in cycling. I got into exercise in ‘91 with cycling. During ‘92-’94 I usually rode 250 miles a week weather permitting. I did racing and group rides whenever I could and was pretty competitive. I have been running since ‘95 because I was tired of not doing anything in the winter as it seems there are only 6 months where you can really ride outside. You can ride more but it is cold and not fun at all, where with running it will not be as cold and you can get a great workout in a hour. With cycling I really need about 2-2 1/2 hours to get a good work out and that is too long to be outside in the cold and too long to be inside bored to death on a bike. When riding by myself on the bike before I started running I would usually avg around 18-20mph. Now 4 years later I fixed up my bike so I could ride it on rest days. The interesting thing is that when I go for a bike ride now I am averaging between 23-25mph and I am not really going that hard because they are rest days. I am also faster now even though my muscles are completely undeveloped or trained for cycling. This lack of exercise specific training shows once I ride hard for about an hour as my lower back and other muscles used in cycling become sore and exhausted.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, not necessarily, nor is that what I said. Distance and intensity of the race as well as training styles with respect to muscle recruitment play a great role in the who can beat who game. Cyclists can most often beat runners in short bike races through raw leg power… but in "middle distances" its been my observation that runners have the vast edge on the bike because of much greater VO2 max ability. Then when you get past the middle distances and move again to the very long distances, one again cyclists have the advantage because VO2 max isnt an issue but rather muscles trained for endurance on the bike are…. All in all…. your average cyclist (ie: not a racer) has a pretty low VO2 max and cannot take the anaerobic punishments that a runner can. Hence, I think they’de lose a middle distance race on the bike against a runner a large percentage of the time.
Aww, c’mon, Hoffman. Specificity of training will win out every time. I’m not sure where you’ve made your "observations" – perhaps the same place your sub-16 5K 80 year old hangs out? After running all winter, it takes me weeks to get my biking legs back to where I have any speed. If your theory was correct, I’d be able to jump on the bike in March and beat a pure biker in a 30 mile race – and that is pure BS. My legs would go at about 8. VO2 Max is not the determining factor – specific muscle strength and endurance is. Which is why specificity rules. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03
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Have you calibrated your cycle computer lately? 23-25mph and going easy? You are definitely Tour material! — Bill Fasula http://www.netcom.com/~bfasula – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hoffman compares apples and oranges. snip I tend to agree that the aerobic benefits are far less in cycling. I got into exercise in ‘91 with cycling. During ‘92-’94 I usually rode 250 miles a week weather permitting. I did racing and group rides whenever I could and was pretty competitive. I have been running since ‘95 because I was tired of not doing anything in the winter as it seems there are only 6 months where you can really ride outside. You can ride more but it is cold and not fun at all, where with running it will not be as cold and you can get a great workout in a hour. With cycling I really need about 2-2 1/2 hours to get a good work out and that is too long to be outside in the cold and too long to be inside bored to death on a bike. When riding by myself on the bike before I started running I would usually avg around 18-20mph. Now 4 years later I fixed up my bike so I could ride it on rest days. The interesting thing is that when I go for a bike ride now I am averaging between 23-25mph and I am not really going that hard because they are rest days. I am also faster now even though my muscles are completely undeveloped or trained for cycling. This lack of exercise specific training shows once I ride hard for about an hour as my lower back and other muscles used in cycling become sore and exhausted.
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Hang on, I’m getting lost here. "Your average cyclist has a pretty low VO2 max and cannot take the anaerobic punishments that a runner can". Do you mean aerobic punishment? — Rod. Discoveries are made every 15 years. Yours is particularly good; it hasn’t been made for 150 years. "The Doctors Dilemma" GB Shaw
Hoffman compares apples and oranges.
All in all…. your average cyclist – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(ie: not a racer) has a pretty low VO2 max and cannot take the anaerobic punishments that a runner can. Hence, I think they’de lose a middle distance race on the bike against a runner a large percentage of the time.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Aww, c’mon, Hoffman. Specificity of training will win out every time. I’m not sure where you’ve made your "observations" – perhaps the same place your sub-16 5K 80 year old hangs out? After running all winter, it takes me weeks to get my biking legs back to where I have any speed. If your theory was correct, I’d be able to jump on the bike in March and beat a pure biker in a 30 mile race – and that is pure BS. My legs would go at about 8. VO2 Max is not the determining factor – specific muscle strength and endurance is. Which is why specificity rules. Mike Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03
I have to agree with Mike in a big way. A well-trained runner will beat a cylist in a foot race, and a well-trained cyclist will beat a runner in a cyling race of pretty much any distance. This is not to say that there might not be some athletes out there for whom this might not be true, but they would definitely be outside the norm. And as for Dave who gave his own personal example of being able to now go easy at 23-25 mph after he started running compared to 18-20 mph previously, he is either putting us on or rides only down hill. For the non-cyclists here on rec.running, please be advised that averaging 23-25 mph is HAULING ASS! One group that could probably give some empiric evidence on this matter are triathletes. I think that most triathletes would agree that when they concentrate on running that there bike performance falls off and vice versa. This speaks to Mike’s statement that "specificity rules." Jeff Roberts
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So my question is: Is it possible that riding is in some way better for muscles than running? I’ll never give up running for such a reason, but I wonder why I feel better after a hard cycle-training than after a hard run.
My guess is the impact of running is much more stressful than pedaling. Bob
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Cycling is much kinder to your leg muscles. Due to the impact of running your legs will have much more "damage" to repair after a long run. A few years ago I remember seeing a study which showed muscle samples from cyclists after a long road race vs. runners after a marathon. The cyclists sample showed muslce cells pretty much in tact, while many of the runner’s muscle cells were broken, and generally pretty scary looking. This is part of the reason cyclists can train 30+h/week, while runners can only get in an hour or two a day. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, during summer I often enrich my training with a little cycling. I am not a great cyclist due to the lack of kilometers I ride, but nevertheless I try to make my cycle-training as hard as possible. So it can happen that I’m on the road for 4 to 5 hours. After such a training I’m always very tired, once my legs felt justl like they were burning inside. But after the ridings I always regenerate very fast. I’v never had aching muscles after cycling. After a 4hour ride I regenerate better than after one hour running. So my question is: Is it possible that riding is in some way better for muscles than running? I’ll never give up running for such a reason, but I wonder why I feel better after a hard cycle-training than after a hard run. Thanx, Kriddoff
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Hi there, during summer I often enrich my training with a little cycling. I am not a great cyclist due to the lack of kilometers I ride, but nevertheless I try to make my cycle-training as hard as possible. So it can happen that I’m on the road for 4 to 5 hours. After such a training I’m always very tired, once my legs felt justl like they were burning inside. But after the ridings I always regenerate very fast. I’v never had aching muscles after cycling. After a 4hour ride I regenerate better than after one hour running. So my question is: Is it possible that riding is in some way better for muscles than running? I’ll never give up running for such a reason, but I wonder why I feel better after a hard cycle-training than after a hard run. Thanx, Kriddoff
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So my question is: Is it possible that riding is in some way better for muscles than running? I’ll never give up running for such a reason, but I wonder why I feel better after a hard cycle-training than after a hard run.
Let me just elaborate on your question.. for benefit of some others who may wonder which type of cross-training is best and how each differs. I think the usual answer which alot of cross-trainers may agree on is to say that overall, running is better for two purposes and likewise, cycling is also better in a respect or two as follows.. First, running definately increases your resistance to injury. It strengthens various connective tissue and also increases bone density over time because of the impact forces. Secondly running probably is better in the so-called "cardiovascular" department. I use the word cardiovascular as a very vague non-scientific term but I’d say it means overall fitness level and especially stamina and endurance. Cycling has the advantage that its definately better for your muscles on an "average" basis (meaning if you compare a runner and a cyclist on equal terrain [hills or flats, etc..], the bikers muscles will get more benefit from that terrain training than the runner.. The muscles used in cycling are a little different than that used in running, but regardless… cyclists usually tend to have more impressive legs overall. So if you take two "average joes" (not elite athletes), one is an avid biker and one is an avid runner (and assuming they are both in the same fitness level and are basically genetically the same)….. the result is as follows: The runner would likely beat the cyclist in any endurance running event on foot because running definately promotes better fitness at a quicker pace (ie: running will get you in shape much faster and easier than cycling will… it is possible to get near equal fitness by cycling, but the training required is very sophisticated, specialized and intense… ) Now, if you put the runner on a bike and make him do a short race (less than 1 mile) the bicyclist probably would win because cycling short distances requires very great leg strength and especially a high lactate threshold. Sprinting on a bike definately produces lactic acid faster than sprinting on a track…. but if you increased the distance of the bike race (5 ++ miles), then it becomes more even, and its a toss up regarding who’d win.. The cyclist has the leg strength that might let him endure the race better… but the runner has better "cardio fitness", which may include endurance and stamina which may let him win. I take these figures and observations based on my experiences. I’m a heavy cross-trainer and have been part of running clubs and cycling clubs for years so I kind of know the peculiarities of each group.. If your ultimate goal was to get in great "cardio" shape… my advice would be to choose running, if you want nice toned leg muscles you should probably choose cycling. The only problem with cycling, is that you have to perceivably work harder at it if you want results. I have found that hopping on a bike and "strolling" (ie: 15-16 miles an hour or less) is basically useless and isn’t much better than walking fast. If you want any benefit on a bike you should be looking at a sustainable range of 18-22mph over a minimum of 5++ miles (for a fit person of any age). Running seems to be totally different in that even the easiest efforts (8 – 10) minute/miles give you a decent fitness in a short amount of time if you put in enough miles at that pace.
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Rich693376 says… May 9th at 3pm (EST) and will re-air May 12th at 2pm (EST). Rich F.
And one day it may even air on Australian TV. :-) AJ — —- Simon Haigh Illawarra Triathlon Club – Australia http://queene.epsb.edmonton.ab.ca/itc
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When is ESPN going to be airing IMA – we poor Canadians are the last to know about these sort of things…. Much appreciated if you can post the info – or where to find it.
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May 9th at 3pm (EST) and will re-air May 12th at 2pm (EST). Rich F.
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IM Oz: May 9, 3:00pm Does anyone know if the host hotel at Gulf Coast Triathlon has ESPN? I forgot. It sure would be nice to finish this triathlon, kick off my shoes, and relax in front of the TV watching IMA. 
…and miss one of the best post race parties?! C’mon, Pete, set your VCR at home and I’ll buy you a beer. Cheers, Andrew
Andrew the big spender 
The beer is free!!! See you in Gulf Coast Pete. Regards, Carlos Torres de Navarra Coral Gables, Florida IMC 98
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IM Oz: May 9, 3:00pm Does anyone know if the host hotel at Gulf Coast Triathlon has ESPN? I forgot. It sure would be nice to finish this triathlon, kick off my shoes, and relax in front of the TV watching IMA. |26 | IMC’96: 10:36:37 | Fe | ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53 | | "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"
…and miss one of the best post race parties?! C’mon, Pete, set your VCR at home and I’ll buy you a beer. Cheers, Andrew — Andrew Peabody Miami
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IM Oz: May 9, 3:00pm
Does anyone know if the host hotel at Gulf Coast Triathlon has ESPN? I forgot. It sure would be nice to finish this triathlon, kick off my shoes, and relax in front of the TV watching IMA. |26 | IMC’96: 10:36:37 | Fe | ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53 | | "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"
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Does anyone know if ESPN plans to air any of the Ironman Tri’s this year? (Australia, Germany ect.) Or any triathlons for that matter (Mrs. T’s) Thanks, Rob
On that note does anyone know what times and networks are airing the St. Croix Internationl Tri in May?? Thanks Don
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ALL EVENTS ON ESPN (Eastern Standard Time) IM Oz: May 9, 3:00pm May 12, 1:30pm IM Lanzarote: June 20, 2:30pm June 25, 1:00pm IM Hawaii: July 12, 5:30pm July 22, 1:00pm IM Switzerland: August 23, 12:30pm August 31, 1:00pm Check Inside Triathlon Magazine for monthly updates!
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Does anyone know if ESPN plans to air any of the Ironman Tri’s this year? (Australia, Germany ect.) Or any triathlons for that matter (Mrs. T’s) Thanks, Rob
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It does work – one way to get the idea is to swim looking at the bottom (OH HORROR – yes that’s right – you will not explode if you don’t keep the waterline just above your goggles). This head up attitude can accentuate leg dropping. Just float quietly, and lift your head slowly up and down – you’ll see what I mean. After swimming this way for a while, you’ll get a better feel for balancing your body, and swimming in the water, not on it. AS my coach Robert Strauss (former Olympian) says, if you’re on the water you are always sinking- if you’re in it, you "fall up" and swim effortlessly. Flame away, traditional swimmer types. Dr. Todd N. Kenyon Key Biscayne, FL
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Even after "pressing the T" was explained to me, I had no
idea what the concept was all about, or why it was significant for better swimming. It seemed a bit too abstract of a concept for me to relate to. Now I’ve been swimming competitively for over 30 years (man thats hard to believe), and I’ve stayed somewhat current with training techniques during this time. Yet I still find the concept of "pressing the T" too abstract, even for someone who has completely internalized every aspect of their stroke (speaking personally). Obviously this and other concepts have been well recieved by those who ahve atended the camp. Everyone I talk to, and everything I read suggests the camp is time and money well spent. It’s just that "Pressing the T" seems weird.<<< It isn’t really all that complicated or abstract. The idea is just that the best way to keep your hips and legs from sinking is to lean your chest and head into the water, causing the water to press back against your lower body. Terry Laughlin illustrates this with a kickboard. If you press one end of the board into the water, the other end pops up. Most people rely too much on their kick to keep their lower body from sinking. If you can achieve balance in your torso, your legs are then free to concentrate on propulsion. The reason this technique is called "pressing the T" is that the area on your chest that you want to press into the water moves as you move through different parts of the stroke. When on your stomach it is right on your breastbone. When on your side (during a breath) you press your armpit down. The technique only works if you maintain T-pressure at all points of your rotation. Steve Irish
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Even after "pressing the T" was explained to me, I had no idea what the concept was all about, or why it was significant for better swimming. It seemed a bit too abstract of a concept for me to relate to. Now I’ve been swimming competitively for over 30 years (man thats hard to believe)…
I agree as well. I started swimming in ‘71 and have been a swim coach for several years as well. T.J. correctly pointed out that "pressing the T" comes from butterfly. While the TI camp stories almost rank with "too-good-to-be-true", I’m really glad people are getting results, and I’ve pondered (if I were a rich man) that maybe I’d be able to go and see for myself. Back to "pressing-the-T"… if you stand straight up and hold your arms straight out, parallel to the ground, you look like a giant "T". I’m not sure how the "pressing" part actually goes. A lot of body positioning problems are fixed by proper head positioning. It also seems if you have proper arm extension and shoulder rotation, then you naturally "press" your chest into the water and hence "press-the-T". Sorry for all the rambling… In any case, I’m sure this is one of those situations where a picture is worth a thousand words Pat W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D. _- -_ Los Alamos National Lab -__ __- / cis: 72410,3372 /
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When you are "pressing the buoy" are you in fact keeping your head up during freestyle. My coaches used to always tell me to "keep my head up" while swimming. It works and I’ve felt similar sensations as you describe with this technique. I suppose you could argue that by lifting your head you are putting pressure on your "buoy" causing it to surge during your stroke. Any correlation here? Being a former competitive swimmer, and recently starting again after a 10 year hiatus, I am interested in any new training info. Will be in Lauderdale in 3 weeks for the championships. Are you guys going to be out there? Frank Shuster — Charlotte, NC
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From Terry Laughlin: I seem to have started this controversy though I’ve dropped in on it a bit late, but let me add this to make it hopefully a bit more understandable. First because the term "Pressing the T" strikes many people as a bit obtuse, I’m going to change the terminology to "Pressing Your Buoy." Here’s what I mean by this and here’s why it works: 1. Think of a water polo ball or something similarly buoyant. If you push it into the water, what happens? Right! the water pushes it back out. 2. We have only one place on our body that’s similarly buoyant–the space between our armpits and behind the breastbone; it floats mainly because it has volume (Empty Space!) not mass. Most everything else on the body (except for body fat whereever we may have it) tends to sink. So let’s call it our Buoy and it will prove far more valuable to us than the buoy we stick between our legs to keep them afloat. 3. If we push it into the water, the water will respond by pushing it back out. But we use our noggins and make the CHOICE of what we let the water push out. We choose to release the hips to the surface. It’s that simple and costs us far less energy than trying to keep the hips and legs up by kicking. 4. Finally you add some counterweight to the sinking tendency of the hips and legs, by using the head in this manner (understand that your body in water is really a teeter-totter with it’s fulcrum somewhere between your waist and your sternum). The longer heavier end naturally wants to sink. Your head, if kept connected via the head-spine line to the hips will act as an effective counterweight. In order to use it this way you have to avoid lifting your head to breathe. So from now on you can refer to this as "Pressing Your Buoy" as I will. Hopefully this will reduce the level of misunderstanding. By the way I’m not surprised at the level of resistance among experienced swimmers to this notion. Many of them don’t have radical balance problems to overcome (unlike 90% of all triathletes) and have over the years evolved intuitive ways of dealing with them. It’s just not something they have to THINK about while swimming, anymore than they need to think about breathing. They just do it. So to suggest to them that they should will likely just give them a pain in the head. Swimmers are often reluctant to change tried and true ways of doing things anyway. But I’ve been swimming for 30 years myself, have finished 2nd at US Masters Nationals and am still learning more effective ways of interacting with the water, simply by being open to that possibility. Matt Biondi, after he had already set multiple world records and won (how many?–7?) Olympic medals, said that he felt he had learned only 10% of all there was to know about swimming well. If I ever feel that I know it all about swimming, look for me to take up golf because swimming will at that point cease to be interesting to me. Happy laps.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This concept of "pressing the T" was explained to me by someone attending the _Total Imersion_ swim camp. That person was on deck one night watching swimmers in the water, and telling the coach who was successfully "pressing the T", and who was not. I was one of the swimmers that was "pressing the T". Even after "pressing the T" was explained to me, I had no idea what the concept was all about, or why it was significant for better swimming. It seemed a bit too abstract of a concept for me to relate to. Now I’ve been swimming competitively for over 30 years (man thats hard to believe), and I’ve stayed somewhat current with training techniques during this time. Yet I still find the concept of "pressing the T" too abstract, even for someone who has completely internalized every aspect of their stroke (speaking personally). Obviously this and other concepts have been well recieved by those who ahve atended the camp. Everyone I talk to, and everything I read suggests the camp is time and money well spent. It’s just that "Pressing the T" seems weird. -RC
I agree with you. I have been swimming for quite a while and have always been taught to solve the body balancing problem by other means. I still have scars from all the flames from this thread about a month ago so I will not go into any more detail. If pressing the t works for you, then use it. If it doesn’t, then don’t. T.J. T.J. Fry : "It takes a big man to cry, but Clemson University : that man".-DEEP THOUGHTS by Jack Handy Men’s varsity swimming :
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This concept of "pressing the T" was explained to me by someone attending the _Total Imersion_ swim camp. That person was on deck one night watching swimmers in the water, and telling the coach who was successfully "pressing the T", and who was not. I was one of the swimmers that was "pressing the T". Even after "pressing the T" was explained to me, I had no idea what the concept was all about, or why it was significant for better swimming. It seemed a bit too abstract of a concept for me to relate to. Now I’ve been swimming competitively for over 30 years (man thats hard to believe), and I’ve stayed somewhat current with training techniques during this time. Yet I still find the concept of "pressing the T" too abstract, even for someone who has completely internalized every aspect of their stroke (speaking personally). Obviously this and other concepts have been well recieved by those who ahve atended the camp. Everyone I talk to, and everything I read suggests the camp is time and money well spent. It’s just that "Pressing the T" seems weird. -RC
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I have been a triathlete for 5 years comming from a running background. My swimming has steadily improved and currently I am able to complete problem, like many other triatletes, is my kick. It trully is nothing to write home about. I have read in Inside Triathlon about putting weight on your chest, which is suppose to raise your hips and plane you off in the water better. I would greatly appreciate feedback on drills to help achieve this feeling or refine the techinque, because I am getting no feedback both internally and externally (with the masters group I swim)on if I am doing this correctly. Also, I would appreciate any comments from swimmers who have incorporated this technique on the results that they achieved. Thanks, Chris Spaight
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:… I have read in Inside Triathlon about putting weight 
n your chest, which is suppose to raise your hips and plane you off in :the water better. I would greatly appreciate feedback on drills to help :achieve this feeling or refine the techinque, because I am getting no :feedback both internally and externally (with the masters group I :swim)on if I am doing this correctly. : :Also, I would appreciate any comments from swimmers who have :incorporated this technique on the results that they achieved. and if you ask very, very nicely he may send you some of the workouts that he has suggested and written about in various magazines on the importance of balance and becoming more efficient in swimming. I did just that about four months ago, after I found my Masters Swimming workouts doing little more than getting me exhausted on a regular basis with no increase in speed. I took off four months from the swim team and continued to practice on my own 2-3 times per week, but this time the sessions were actual "practices" uses Terry’s suggestions and drills to become more efficient. I was not that concerned with the clock, and spent the majority of the sessions doing actual drills, and did *much* less yardage than my counterparts in the Masters Group. The results? Last week I swam with the Master’s group for the first time since December. My times were faster than when I left, and faster than those swimmers who had been at my pace prior to my "respite." Several people noticed and commented on the difference. Lets see now…do I want to swim less yardage and get faster; or swim more yardage, work harder and show no appreciable gains…..Hum-m-m? ;^) Hey it worked for me. I still get my heartrate up too high with the Master’s group, so I’ll probably keep my other schedule until about 4-5 prior to actually racing, and then do one workout a week with the group. I also am looking froward to attending one of Terry Laughlin’s TI Swim camps during the next year. Good Luck! Charlie Brown "Always remember that you are unique; just like everybody else"
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