Question:

I’m planning on doing the covered bridges half-marathon in June this year, but the following weekend is a great sprint tri on the cape that I’ve been wanting to do forever. Is it a bad idea to compete in a half-marathon with a sprint tri the next weekend?

Have you done any half marathons before?  I did my first a month ago and for a few days, merely descending stairs was an issue.  I could have been better prepared, but still.   Last season I made a big mistake in doing a 10k the day after a sprint tri. Not good, though I suspect it is much safer to do a tri after a run than vice versa.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

If you’re shooting for prize money… YES otherwise… NO – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Hey All, Just a question about rest time.. I’m 24 and I’m doing the Boston Marathon (hopefully in around 3.5 – 4 hrs) this year and I’ve already competed in a couple of sprint tri’s..This gives you a little background on my physical background now for my question… I’m planning on doing the covered bridges half-marathon in June this year, but the following weekend is a great sprint tri on the cape that I’ve been wanting to do forever. Is it a bad idea to compete in a half-marathon with a sprint tri the next weekend?

Response:

Not planning on winning either event.. just doing it for the sake of doing a race.. Although I’ve done 13 mile runs before, and yes.. my legs hurt.. but I don’t think that it’s anything more than the pain I have on mondays after a long training run — which goes away by Tuesday night, Wednesday morning.. so I don’t see why a week’s worth of rest wouldn’t be enough… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re shooting for prize money… YES otherwise… NO Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Hey All, Just a question about rest time.. I’m 24 and I’m doing the Boston Marathon (hopefully in around 3.5 – 4 hrs) this year and I’ve already competed in a couple of sprint tri’s..This gives you a little background on my physical background now for my question… I’m planning on doing the covered bridges half-marathon in June this year, but the following weekend is a great sprint tri on the cape that I’ve been wanting to do forever. Is it a bad idea to compete in a half-marathon with a sprint tri the next weekend?

Response:

Brandon, the sprint tri’s on the Cape sell out fast.  sign up soon if you really want to do it. E

Response:

Brandon: You’re only 24 and you’re in great shape…. go for it!  May hurt a bit and you may not get a PR, but you’re doing in fun.   Hey All,   Just a question about rest time.. I’m 24 and I’m doing the Boston   Marathon (hopefully in around 3.5 – 4 hrs) this year and I’ve already   competed in a couple of sprint tri’s..This gives you a little   background on my physical background now for my question…   I’m planning on doing the covered bridges half-marathon in June this   year, but the following weekend is a great sprint tri on the cape that   I’ve been wanting to do forever. Is it a bad idea to compete in a   half-marathon with a sprint tri the next weekend?

Response:

Hey All, Just a question about rest time.. I’m 24 and I’m doing the Boston Marathon (hopefully in around 3.5 – 4 hrs) this year and I’ve already competed in a couple of sprint tri’s..This gives you a little background on my physical background now for my question… I’m planning on doing the covered bridges half-marathon in June this year, but the following weekend is a great sprint tri on the cape that I’ve been wanting to do forever. Is it a bad idea to compete in a half-marathon with a sprint tri the next weekend?

Response:

Question:

I do all of the maintenance on my bike, and it can be a lot of fun. I used to do it in my basement (the unfinished portion) and I broke down about 6 years ago and bought an Ultimate repair stand. Sweet. The only things on my bike that I don’t do are the bottom bracket and headset. It’s less expensive for me to drop it off at the shop for that than invest in all those tools. You’ll find that just by working on the bike things will not seem all that difficult. Good luck. -Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon As I entered into my 2 week Transition phase of my training year I have resolved to start doing all of my own bike maintenance this coming year.  I plan to set up a workshop in a spare bedroom, acquire some needed tools, and have at it.  My first project is to disassemble my bike, clean/lube it, and put it back together again. I did this once before years ago and realized that one can learn a lot from this exercise, and it takes some of the mystery out of bike maintenance.  I bought Leonard Zinn’s book to refresh my memory and get me up to date with some of the newer technologies.  Does anyone else have experience in this venture?  How many ppl do all of their own maintenance?  What works for you in terms of home workshops? best, eric

Response:

I’m surprised at the ammount of people who don’t do thier own maint. I guess its a time vs money thing. I personally do my own stuff except tricky stuff like truing wheels.

Truing wheels isn’t too tough with a truing stand.  Ditto, changing spokes.  Building wheels?  Now that’s tricky.  Too much for me. I’ve done my own maintenance for years and I find it saves time. Most the maintenance is so simple that you’d spend more time taking your bike to the shop and picking it up.  Plus you’ll probably buy stuff while you’re there that you wouldn’t have bought otherwise, so it’s even more expensive.  And sometimes there’s just not a mechanic around when you need one. And, of course, if you need advice the fine folks on rst and rbt are available 7×24. Larry

Response:

Ditto the remarks about having the right tools.  If you try to convert some auto or general home tools to your bike, you may scar it up.  For example, a REAL pedal wrench is nicer to work with than an adjustable wrench. One of the best benefits is that you are more likely to find solutions to mid-ride breakdowns.  A dime, chewing gum wrapper, and pile of leaves have gotten many bicyclists home – - without the walk to a payphone. rsquared – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I entered into my 2 week Transition phase of my training year I have resolved to start doing all of my own bike maintenance this coming year.  I plan to set up a workshop in a spare bedroom, acquire some needed tools, and have at it.  My first project is to disassemble my bike, clean/lube it, and put it back together again. I did this once before years ago and realized that one can learn a lot from this exercise, and it takes some of the mystery out of bike maintenance.  I bought Leonard Zinn’s book to refresh my memory and get me up to date with some of the newer technologies.  Does anyone else have experience in this venture?  How many ppl do all of their own maintenance?  What works for you in terms of home workshops? best, eric

Before you buy.

Response:

Do not take bike maintenance too lightly.   Your bike is a precision instrument and should be treated as such. Your life depends on it being assembled correctly and with reliable components.   If you are mechanically inclined and have access to someone that is knowledgeable and skillful then there is no reason you can not do your own work.   Some things can not be learned from a book.   Things like the feel of setting up a head set, wheel bearing or adjustable bottom  bracket, spoke tension  need to be learned from one that knows and has the "touch".   You need to know the engineered torque specifications for nuts and bolts.     It’s all do’able if you have the interest, touch and patience.   Get the correct tools first.  That includes a few things like a good quality torque wrench and dial indicator for starters.  An over or under tightened bolt could lead to disaster. I do my work because I trust no one else.  I do it all including the building of wheels.  I have dedicated my life to mechanical things so am well trained.  I first was a machinist,  then tool maker, then Nuclear Power Inspector, then foreman machinist, then master machinist in charge of a very large shop building Nuclear Subs from scratch. I finished my long career as Production  Superintendent of  a complex industrial facility.   In that position I was responsible for training  and supervising several hundred skilled mechanical people in the manufacturing of parts for weapons, ships machinery, and some of the most complex systems designed for Nuke Subs. You can do your maintenance as well as I or a shop, but you do need to develop some skill to insure that your bike is assembled safely, correctly and with precision. Go to it, but get to know someone with the "touch".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I entered into my 2 week Transition phase of my training year I have resolved to start doing all of my own bike maintenance this coming year.  I plan to set up a workshop in a spare bedroom, acquire some needed tools, and have at it.  My first project is to disassemble my bike, clean/lube it, and put it back together again. I did this once before years ago and realized that one can learn a lot from this exercise, and it takes some of the mystery out of bike maintenance.  I bought Leonard Zinn’s book to refresh my memory and get me up to date with some of the newer technologies.  Does anyone else have experience in this venture?  How many ppl do all of their own maintenance?  What works for you in terms of home workshops? best, eric

Response:

As I entered into my 2 week Transition phase of my training year I have resolved to start doing all of my own bike maintenance this coming year.  I plan to set up a workshop in a spare bedroom, acquire some needed tools, and have at it.  My first project is to disassemble my bike, clean/lube it, and put it back together again. I did this once before years ago and realized that one can learn a lot from this exercise, and it takes some of the mystery out of bike maintenance.  I bought Leonard Zinn’s book to refresh my memory and get me up to date with some of the newer technologies.  Does anyone else have experience in this venture?  How many ppl do all of their own maintenance?  What works for you in terms of home workshops? best, eric

Response:

I do my own wrenching and would recommend you use a basement or garage rather than spare bedroom unless you enjoy oil stains on the wood floor or carpeting.  With the right tools there’s nothing difficult about servicing your own bike.

Response:

I’m surprised at the ammount of people who don’t do thier own maint. I guess its a time vs money thing. I personally do my own stuff except tricky stuff like truing wheels. I don’t have all the tools either. Last week I had the shop change out my headset and bottom bracket, since I don’t have those tools. Jean-Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I entered into my 2 week Transition phase of my training year I have resolved to start doing all of my own bike maintenance this coming year.  I plan to set up a workshop in a spare bedroom, acquire some needed tools, and have at it.  My first project is to disassemble my bike, clean/lube it, and put it back together again. I did this once before years ago and realized that one can learn a lot from this exercise, and it takes some of the mystery out of bike maintenance.  I bought Leonard Zinn’s book to refresh my memory and get me up to date with some of the newer technologies.  Does anyone else have experience in this venture?  How many ppl do all of their own maintenance?  What works for you in terms of home workshops? best, eric

Response:

Truing wheels isn’t really tricky but it can be time consuming. The trick, if there is one, is in learning how to properly stress relieve and tension the spokes so that you don’t have to waste time truing the wheels again and again. Furthermore, wheel building and truing are cheap because the only tool you really need to buy is a spoke wrench. A truing stand would be nice but it is by no means necessary. I figure the money invested in any tool required to do my own maintenance will easily pay for itself many times over during its life in my tool kit. And that’s not even mentioning the value of being better able to handle emergency roadside/trailside repairs by having the knowledge gained in performing my own maintenance. I doubt I’ll ever buy a bearing press, headset tools or anything of that nature, but a sealed BB is incredibly easy to install. — Stacy Hills Reston, VA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m surprised at the ammount of people who don’t do thier own maint. I guess its a time vs money thing. I personally do my own stuff except tricky stuff like truing wheels. I don’t have all the tools either. Last week I had the shop change out my headset and bottom bracket, since I don’t have those tools. Jean-Paul As I entered into my 2 week Transition phase of my training year I have resolved to start doing all of my own bike maintenance this coming year.  I plan to set up a workshop in a spare bedroom, acquire some needed tools, and have at it.  My first project is to disassemble my bike, clean/lube it, and put it back together again. I did this once before years ago and realized that one can learn a lot from this exercise, and it takes some of the mystery out of bike maintenance.  I bought Leonard Zinn’s book to refresh my memory and get me up to date with some of the newer technologies.  Does anyone else have experience in this venture?  How many ppl do all of their own maintenance?  What works for you in terms of home workshops? best, eric

Response:

Question:

I’m just frustrated….. there’s no way in heck I’m even close to placing in my AG (24-29), it just sucks for those that lose out to awards because others are cheating.

Your just slow and blame it on other people.Pitiful.                      Seve Long

Response:

Sounds like there is only 1 USAT official in North Carolina!

Yes, this is the case. There are, however, several in Virginia willing to travel. Officials from Virginia worked Semper Fi and White Lake this year, the only two NC races (other than the junior championships) that requested officials. I would suggest doing some brief ‘volunteer training’ at some of these races, then have the volunteers ride around on the back of motor cycles calling out obvious drafting violations….. even though, since they technically aren’t USAT officials, they probably couldn’t keep these people from winning awards….

If a head referee has time to train volunteers and has full confidence in their judgment, he or she may issue penalties based on what they observe. I’ve never done it, but I can imagine it happening. David Schoonmaker, the NC USAT official Durham, NC

Response:

Sounds like there is only 1 USAT official in North Carolina! Yes, this is the case. There are, however, several in Virginia willing to travel. Officials from Virginia worked Semper Fi and White Lake this year, the only two NC races (other than the junior championships) that requested officials.

    What’s the full story with being an official?  I mean, after you are     trained up/certified/etc.  Are travel costs covered by the RD?     Or if you agree to officiate a race, are you responsible for your     own arrangements?  I’m in north Texas, so I could probably commit     to officiating a large number of races without ever driving more     than 50 miles from home (were I a certified official), but am     curious about the situations in states like NC, where there is     apparently only 1 official in the entire state. Cheers, Shane "Maybe I should pursue officiating instead of duathlon…." Potter

Response:

After completing a clinic (2-3 hours, before a race), an official works that race as a Category 5 official–no compensation. Then the official volunteers as an assistant at two more races as Cat. 4 before becoming eligible to apply for Cat. 3 status. A Cat. 3 official assigned to a race (at the race director’s request, unless it’s a championship) receives the following compensation: – $50 for International or shorter; $100 for 1/2 IM or longer – $0.28 per mile driving compensation or other travel as pre-arranged – accommodations: motel or home stay, arranged by RD – free membership in USA Triathlon if you work three or more races per year Most race directors I’ve worked with have also been more than gracious about including us in any pre- or post-race meals at no charge. In addition, officials must attend recertification clinics every two years to remain active. There is no compensation for attending a clinic, although regional coordinators generally attempt to assign officials to the accompanying race. Those are the facts, but please let me add my own take on the reality. Nobody becomes an official for the money. The difference between the compensated mileage and what the IRS allows was more than enough for me to lose money officiating last year. We do it because we believe in draft-free, fair triathlon and want to do our part to make it so. There are all types of us: I happen to be an athlete/official, a fairly common type. Some accompany spouses or children to races and want something more meaningful to do than cheer (not to demean cheering). Others just had a calling. As an athlete, being official has added a major dimension to triathlon. I understand it better and appreciate it more than I did before becoming one. That said, I must also add a warning: Once you become an official, it only becomes more difficult to compete in races that don’t have them. Once you know how well it can work, it’s hard to watch it not work so well. David Schoonmaker (50-54 AG, USAT official) Durham, NC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     What’s the full story with being an official?  I mean, after you are     trained up/certified/etc.  Are travel costs covered by the RD?     Or if you agree to officiate a race, are you responsible for your     own arrangements?  I’m in north Texas, so I could probably commit     to officiating a large number of races without ever driving more     than 50 miles from home (were I a certified official), but am     curious about the situations in states like NC, where there is     apparently only 1 official in the entire state.

Response:

Two years ago at a race in Stevens Point WI the same thing happened to me…out front for the bulk of the ride and in the last 3 miles I get passed by 10 guys in a pack…including three I had passed earlier in the ride. Maybe it was the nature of the course, the lack of marshall-ing or the ethics of the bunch, but I’ve never gone back to Stevens Point. Mark

Response:

Go train and quit crying. Just be happy that there are races to do in N.C.                              Glenn Cook

Jackass. tim(dogspot1) buaidh no bas

Response:

Jackass. tim(dogspot1)

good one

Response:

approaching "cock" status Tri-Nut

Sometimes you feel like a "nut" sometime you sound like a cock sucker

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me apologize in advance….. this is a bit of a rant against drafting so stop now if you want too…. Today I raced in one of the NC Triathlon Series sprint races in Salisbury, NC.  And aside from a few ‘minor’ inconveniences (like broken glass on the beach at the swim start) the race was fairly well organized. The one glaring ‘miss’ on the part of race organizers was the complete lack of any race marshals on the bike course…..  I had targeted this race to really try to make a move in my AG (24-29) and had trained pretty hard for it. So there I was, good swim, doing decent on the bike, when suddenly after the bike turnaround,on a downhill section of the bike course a train of about 6 or 7 riders blows by me like I was on the side of the road fixing my chain. REALLY pissed me off, to the point that I yelled something to the effect of ‘nice pace line fellas’ at the group… and of course, plainly marked on their calves, most were in my AG. Now, if you are pro drafting in Triathlon, I can respect that (though I may disagree with you)… but this was a USAT sanctioned race and it was clearly marked in the race rules NO DRAFTING. Bottom line is this…..  if you draft in a no drafting race, you are cheating because you have a CLEAR competitive advantage…. and if their are any NC Tri Series officials out there, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE start marshaling these races. Brian ‘DRAFTING SUCKS’ Drake Charlotte, NC

Brian; I gotta throw my two cents into this as well.  I did the Triangle Tri two weeks ago, and there wasn’t a single official on the bike course.  Not only that, I noticed there was no mention of drafting in the rules given out in the race packet.  To top things off, when I was setting up in the transition area, I overheard a guy instructing his girlfriend not to worry about the bike; he would wait for her to catch up after the swim so she could draft off him.  I understand this race is a favorite race (and a charity race at that) for first timers and others who aren’t confirmed tri-addicts, but what kind of message does this blatant disregard for USAT rules send to those new to the sport? Besides that, this race is considered one of the major point races in the NC triathlon series.  I’ve done this race every year since I started tris, but each year it seems it gets more and more lax in rule enforcement.  It seems to me that a little educational effort on the part of organizers is needed, such as including a clear statement about drafting in the race packet, going over the important rules prior to the start of the race, and at least a token presence of a draft marshal on the bike course.  Just an opinion, take it or leave it. Marty

Response:

Bill emailed me because I emailed him at Set Up Inc. to complain. He was very nice and I could tell by the email that he had the same concerns that I did…. from his, as well as other, responses that I received, it looks like there just aren’t enough USAT officials to keep these people in check.  Sounds like there is only 1 USAT official in North Carolina! I would suggest doing some brief ‘volunteer training’ at some of these races, then have the volunteers ride around on the back of motor cycles calling out obvious drafting violations….. even though, since they technically aren’t USAT officials, they probably couldn’t keep these people from winning awards, I think it would be pretty cool to point out to the crowd at the awards ceremony that even if these folks won, they ‘had a little help’.  Maybe local roadies would be interested in helping out like this….. they know drafting better than anyone, since it’s actually part of their sport.  And as someone else posted, put them in super bright neon shirts so everyone can see them. I’m just frustrated….. there’s no way in heck I’m even close to placing in my AG (24-29), it just sucks for those that lose out to awards because others are cheating. And just a clarification –  I don’t have any proof that the actual front runners were drafting, the first 7 -10 riders I saw seemed to be very well spaced out….it was a little further back that things were getting out of hand. Brian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brian, I would encourage you to send an email or letter to Bill Scott of Set-Up. Inc., the race director for High Rock Lake and most of the other races in NC Series, informing him of the situation.  Did you get the name or race number of the drafter?  That would allow Bill to confront him on this issue.  Bill is a great guy and should be willing to help on this issue.  It will be difficult for him to penalize the violator based on just your testimony, but he would be able to communicate with the individual that others have witnessed him drafting and warn him about such occurences in the future. Bill was genuinely surprised to find out about the exploits of the Plantadis brothers.  It is common knowledge to most of the elite triathletes in the Carolinas that these guys race every race as if it were conducted under ITU Pro rules rather than USAT amateur rules.  When the subject came up with Bill, he states that not a single person had mentioned their antics to him.  So if you want to stop the drafting, let Bill know.  And yes, I’d be willing to spend an extra $5 in my entry fee just to know that one of those guys isn’t going to win cash over someone who actually earned it. snip

Response:

I did the High Rock race yesterday.  I have witnessed drafting at one other Set-up, Inc. race (White Lake) this year by someone in my AG who finished (3rd in AG) ahead of me.  I was very frustrated by it.   I’m in the M40-44 AG and we (40+ men) were in the last wave at this race with the 40+ women.  We started behind the 39- women, so there was a large gap between us and the previous male wave.  While out on the course, I noticed little drafting and about 3/4 thru the bike, I caught and passed the draft violator from White Lake.  It gave me great pleasure especially since I was able to hold him off on the run.  Although at the beginning of the race I was frustrated with starting in the last wave knowing there would be a lot of other slower people in front of me, this turned out to be a blessing.  This was because there was no one on the course to draft with… all the faster bikers in the younger AG’s were long gone… so my buddy(sic) had no one to work with him.  Revenge is sweet. I did notice some blocking on the course, but most people moved right when I yelled "On your left".  However, I did come across one guy who acted like deer caught in the headlights of a car.  I did pass a lot of people and most were very cooperative. I’m now on the organizing committee for the first ever Outback Big Lick Triathlon at Smith Mtn Lake, Virginia, Sept. 23, and if I have anything to do with it, we will enforce drafting as strictly as possible.  We will have two USAT marshals on hand with additional volunteers, so I hope it will be a clean race. Jack Orsinger

Response:

Something I’ve seen used to VERY good effect is to invite the local roadie club to the race to act as draft marshals.  That way, they get to go out and ride against some tri-geeks (always fun) and they KNOW about drafting.  Maybe they also enjoy "busting" the cheaters.  I hope so.

Before I started doing dus/tri myself, I used to be a draft buster at the Racine (WI) on the Lake Triathlon (late 1980s).  The race director gave us orange t-shirts with "draft spotter" on the back so we were not really undercover.  The best violation I ever caught was the guy who refused to get more that a bike length behind the lead woman for ten miles. I was once in a race and passed two riders riding close, nose to tail. I went by and said "gee, that looks a LOT like DRAFTING to me". The guy on the back smiled and said – "it is, I’m a draft marshal".

I was in a duathlon where my friend Joel was a draft marshal.  As I left T1, he was stuck on my wheel.  I had to yell at him to drop off! 8^) Todd Jensen

Response:

Brian, I would encourage you to send an email or letter to Bill Scott of Set-Up. Inc., the race director for High Rock Lake and most of the other races in NC Series, informing him of the situation.  Did you get the name or race number of the drafter?  That would allow Bill to confront him on this issue.  Bill is a great guy and should be willing to help on this issue.  It will be difficult for him to penalize the violator based on just your testimony, but he would be able to communicate with the individual that others have witnessed him drafting and warn him about such occurences in the future. Bill was genuinely surprised to find out about the exploits of the Plantadis brothers.  It is common knowledge to most of the elite triathletes in the Carolinas that these guys race every race as if it were conducted under ITU Pro rules rather than USAT amateur rules.  When the subject came up with Bill, he states that not a single person had mentioned their antics to him.  So if you want to stop the drafting, let Bill know.  And yes, I’d be willing to spend an extra $5 in my entry fee just to know that one of those guys isn’t going to win cash over someone who actually earned it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me apologize in advance….. this is a bit of a rant against drafting so stop now if you want too…. Today I raced in one of the NC Triathlon Series sprint races in Salisbury, NC.  And aside from a few ‘minor’ inconveniences (like broken glass on the beach at the swim start) the race was fairly well organized. The one glaring ‘miss’ on the part of race organizers was the complete lack of any race marshals on the bike course…..  I had targeted this race to really try to make a move in my AG (24-29) and had trained pretty hard for it. So there I was, good swim, doing decent on the bike, when suddenly after the bike turnaround,on a downhill section of the bike course a train of about 6 or 7 riders blows by me like I was on the side of the road fixing my chain. REALLY pissed me off, to the point that I yelled something to the effect of ‘nice pace line fellas’ at the group… and of course, plainly marked on their calves, most were in my AG. Now, if you are pro drafting in Triathlon, I can respect that (though I may disagree with you)… but this was a USAT sanctioned race and it was clearly marked in the race rules NO DRAFTING. Bottom line is this…..  if you draft in a no drafting race, you are cheating because you have a CLEAR competitive advantage…. and if their are any NC Tri Series officials out there, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE start marshaling these races. Brian ‘DRAFTING SUCKS’ Drake Charlotte, NC

Before you buy.

Response:

Brian: I appreciate the frustration you experienced on Saturday. It’s one reason that, much as I think Set-Up Inc. puts together great races, I haven’t raced locally at all this year. It’s also THE reason that I’m a USAT official. I wasn’t at High Rock Lake officiating because I wasn’t asked to be there. Let me outline some of the reasons. First, USAT requires officials only at championship events. Second, and probably most important in this case, the athletes have to let the race director know that they want officials and are willing to pay a little extra to have them there. (We don’t get paid much, but it’s still an expense for the RD.) Third, we don’t have enough officials; I’m the only one in North Carolina. That has several impacts: It costs race directors more to import officials; officials get burned out doing so many races; and sometimes no officials are available. Until such time as more athletes become officials, there simply won’t be enough to cover all races. Finally, you might want to consider entering the Dannon Duathlon in Huntersville on August 13. I’ll be soloing there (no other officials are available), but I’ll do my best to keep it draft-free. David Schoonmaker (50-54 AG, USAT official)

Today I raced in one of the NC Triathlon Series sprint races in Salisbury, NC.  And aside from a few ‘minor’ inconveniences (like broken glass on the beach at the swim start) the race was fairly well organized. The one glaring ‘miss’ on the part of race organizers was the complete lack of any race marshals on the bike course.

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bottom line is this…..  if you draft in a no drafting race, you are cheating because you have a CLEAR competitive advantage…. and if their are any NC Tri Series officials out there, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE start marshaling these races. Brian ‘DRAFTING SUCKS’ Drake Charlotte, NC

Response:

Finally, you might want to consider entering the Dannon Duathlon in Huntersville on August 13. I’ll be soloing there (no other officials are available), but I’ll do my best to keep it draft-free.

I like to hear this. Something I’ve seen used to VERY good effect is to invite the local roadie club to the race to act as draft marshals.  That way, they get to go out and ride against some tri-geeks (always fun) and they KNOW about drafting.  Maybe they also enjoy "busting" the cheaters.  I hope so. I was once in a race and passed two riders riding close, nose to tail. I went by and said "gee, that looks a LOT like DRAFTING to me". The guy on the back smiled and said – "it is, I’m a draft marshal". Sneaky… really sneaky.  I had to laugh. Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.cynetfl.com/habanero/ Home of the $695 ti frame

Response:

C’mon, Glenn, that’s too easy. No one needs to be told to stop crying. How about they stop the drafting. It has a lot to do with personal integrity, honor, and the fact that triathlon is an individual sport. It’s like cheating on a test at school or stealing from co-workers. Of course not every violation can be policed, but you would expect competitors to have some personal sense of abiding by the rules of the sport. Go train and quit crying. Just be happy that there are races to do in N.C.                               Glenn Cook

– Bernie Hall                                            o                         __o          </_                         <        __ /       /o__      (0)  (0)           /

Response:

Let me apologize in advance….. this is a bit of a rant against drafting so stop now if you want too…. Today I raced in one of the NC Triathlon Series sprint races in Salisbury, NC.  And aside from a few ‘minor’ inconveniences (like broken glass on the beach at the swim start) the race was fairly well organized. The one glaring ‘miss’ on the part of race organizers was the complete lack of any race marshals on the bike course…..  I had targeted this race to really try to make a move in my AG (24-29) and had trained pretty hard for it. So there I was, good swim, doing decent on the bike, when suddenly after the bike turnaround,on a downhill section of the bike course a train of about 6 or 7 riders blows by me like I was on the side of the road fixing my chain. REALLY pissed me off, to the point that I yelled something to the effect of ‘nice pace line fellas’ at the group… and of course, plainly marked on their calves, most were in my AG. Now, if you are pro drafting in Triathlon, I can respect that (though I may disagree with you)… but this was a USAT sanctioned race and it was clearly marked in the race rules NO DRAFTING. Bottom line is this…..  if you draft in a no drafting race, you are cheating because you have a CLEAR competitive advantage…. and if their are any NC Tri Series officials out there, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE start marshaling these races. Brian ‘DRAFTING SUCKS’ Drake Charlotte, NC

Response:

Brian: I agree completely. I saw several "trains" go by me. One of my friends was drafted throughout the entire bike, and the woman doing it usually wins her age group. She followed his every move exactly, just like they were in a Tour de France paceline. She then had the audacity to ask him if he could "pull her" up that first big hill on the run. Besides the flagrant drafting violations, there were also major instances of blocking. Since the course was out-and-back, and the road was not closed to traffic, the riders keeping to the left near the double-yellow line sure made the race unsafe for others. I had to go near the line to get by another guy, who refused to move over to the right after I called "on your left." He looked right over at me, then held his position. Set-Up, Inc. runs great races, but you’re right, we need some officials. — Bernie Hall                                            o                         __o          </_                         <        __ /       /o__      (0)  (0)           / – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me apologize in advance….. this is a bit of a rant against drafting so stop now if you want too…. Today I raced in one of the NC Triathlon Series sprint races in Salisbury, NC.  And aside from a few ‘minor’ inconveniences (like broken glass on the beach at the swim start) the race was fairly well organized. The one glaring ‘miss’ on the part of race organizers was the complete lack of any race marshals on the bike course…..  I had targeted this race to really try to make a move in my AG (24-29) and had trained pretty hard for it. So there I was, good swim, doing decent on the bike, when suddenly after the bike turnaround,on a downhill section of the bike course a train of about 6 or 7 riders blows by me like I was on the side of the road fixing my chain. REALLY pissed me off, to the point that I yelled something to the effect of ‘nice pace line fellas’ at the group… and of course, plainly marked on their calves, most were in my AG. Now, if you are pro drafting in Triathlon, I can respect that (though I may disagree with you)… but this was a USAT sanctioned race and it was clearly marked in the race rules NO DRAFTING. Bottom line is this…..  if you draft in a no drafting race, you are cheating because you have a CLEAR competitive advantage…. and if their are any NC Tri Series officials out there, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE start marshaling these races. Brian ‘DRAFTING SUCKS’ Drake Charlotte, NC

Response:

Go train and quit crying. Just be happy that there are races to do in N.C.                               Glenn Cook

Response:

Go train and quit crying. Just be happy that there are races to do in N.C.                               Glenn Cook

Hopefully, others will agree that the Tri-Rooster is clearly approaching "cock" status.  USAT sanctioned events are no drafting races.  Period.  Drafters cheat.  Period.  If you can’t race within the rules and realize that triathlon is an individual test of fitness, then leave the sport and join the peloton of roadies.  Drafting is a clear display of weakness and undertraining.  Let those who have done the work reap the benefits. I’m sure that as triathlon grows thoughout the country and in N.C., more races will appear on the schedule.  Race organizers should always make provisions to enforce the rules.  IMH ‘99 made a clear statement about drafting by the DQ of Lothar Leder.  Pro or not, drafting sucks wind for everyone trying to race within the rules. Tri-Nut Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

David, I”ve competed in a few different sports.  I’ve always loved the competition.  But in any sport I’ve found a few dolts that confused healthy competition for a chance at one-up-manship.  I’ve run Boston a couple of times.  Enjoyed the experience tremendously.  I found the crowds friendly and the runners typical.  They were busy running a race.  When they socialized, most did so with friends or aquaintances.  As others pointed out, the kids with the outstretched hands, the oranges being passed out, the barbeques, the co-eds at Wellsley, all were inspirational. I’ve been bumped before in a race.  Even had one gal pass me in the beginning of my first 5K with a well placed elbow below the waist.  Sure didn’t put me off of running, although it certainly slowed my pace for a bit.  As for trying to outrun the next person, yup.  Guilty as charged.  At least in races. Particularly if they are a good running friend.  And if they aren’t trying to outrun me, then shame on them!  If I want to socialize with a slower friend, I stay just a little behind them as I run.  I want to enjoy them at their pace. Two friends were running in a race a while back.  Part of the course took them by some buildings where the course zigzagged by the corners of the buildings.  These two friends were both trying to beat each other.  As they approached a building, the one on the outside did not leave a lane for the one on the inside.  The inside runner kept expecting his friend to leave him a lane, but it never happened.  He literally ran into the corner of the building.  Immediately after the race, the runner who had crowded his friend felt really bad.  How could he do that to his good friend?  How could he let the competition overcome his good judgement and concern for his friend?  He knew that he would have to face his friend and try to apologize.  He started to go find him but his friend saw him first.  His friend immediately congratulated him on his race tactic and his fine finish.  He knew he could have backed off and not run into the building.  He just wasn’t going to back off the pace. I have to admit though that I enjoy talking about running.  I relish hearing about other peoples successes and stories when running and enjoy telling my own . I would have to guess that your perception of runners and running is different than mine.  It doesn’t make my perception any better or more right than yours, but it is different. Todd

Response:

And that would make you a what?  An anti-socialist.  Relax partner, life’s too short.  If you can’t enjoy the people, at least appreciate the food and wine. Yes Indy, the anti-dentite episode was both hoot and holler. — Patrick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The French are short, rude socialists.

Response:

Yes, if you agree with someone, you are certainly just a lemming… you would follow others off the side of a cliff… you wouldn’t brave a word in the face of injustice… Terry should certainly take Olsen’s database class to fix that.  Maybe he can earn some extra credit And to the original poster, good job on finishing a marathon and I don’t think that you are a socialist troll. -jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Instead of following other opinions, maybe you should study under Mr. Olsen….. Several people have already expressed doubt about your pronouncements. Count me in as another. — Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

Response:

Okay, here is perhaps the silliest complaint to grace rec.running, but I am curious as to why no-one responded to my last post: a marathon report

Congrats, Bob.  I just missed it, that’s all.  Way to go!

Response:

Personally, I "marked it as read" without reading because I thought it was a "report of who won age groups etc" … didn’t think a list of names sounded interested….but, if the title was something like "my experience in Paris Marathon" … I likely would have read it … So,    since you had to work so hard to finish the race .. AND  so, hard for us to know about it ….  Congradulations … however belated…. Good job. Roy

Response:

Without a doubt, in general, runners are the most self absorbed of all athletes.

Maybe… and? They only want to discuss themselves and their own running issues and outrun the next person.

Hmmm… I can’t say I disagree. I also believe as a group they are more educated which for some reason makes them really want to put others down.

Hmmm… or maybe they’re "competitive"… which of course, is a nice way of saying they might tend to put each other down.  Again, can’t disagree.  I ran the Houston marathon in January and had some christian guy (Bob – he had a bible quote on his shirt) almost knock me down about ten times until I yelled at him to get away.

I’m not sure this example bears your point very well.  Unless you were the only other runner, he would not HELP his chances of a higher finish by knocking you down.  In fact, he’d slow himself down by trying.  Is it possible that Christian Bob was so infused with the spirit of the Lord that he just couldn’t run straight and was… well… clumsy?  His do not sound like the actions of a hypercompetitive incredibly educated individual. Sounds like he was just having a hard time and was drifting about on the course. Now, who was the unfriendly guy?  If this guy was having a hard race, don’t you think it was rather un-neighborly to yell at him? Are you talking about socializing on the DAY OF THE RACE?  Gotta tell ya, even if folks aren’t that competitive, if they’re getting in a frame of mind to cover 26.2 or any long distance like the 10 miler you mentioned, they really probably aren’t trying to make friends and socialize before the race. Don’t you have any friends you go to races with?  For me, I love races because it gives me a chance to see so many familiar faces:  folks I like but don’t have time to see all that much except at races. However, if I don’t already know them, or didn’t ride to the race with them, chances are we aren’t going to be getting chummy just because we’re standing around before the race. But I see what you mean.  If you show up by yourself and try to make friends, it’s hard.  No excuses, there.  The typical runner is trying to get ready for the race.  If he’s talking, it’s usually to somebody he already knows.  After the race, he wants to rehydrate and get to a shower. Although last Spring in Cleveland, I did run the first 18 miles with some woman I’d never met.  I was running with my best friend and she asked if she could run with us.  I never saw her face until the race pictures arrived months later.  Nice lady. The three of us talked the whole time. It’s a little different in triathlon.  Folks are all a lot more friendly. You make a lot of friends on the day of the race.  Who knows.  Running is just so… well… focused.  I don’t think it means that the people, themselves, aren’t friendly.  It just means that the sport doesn’t lend itself that well to socialization. With triathlon, you’re meeting folks while setting up in transition, on the walk to the water, afterwards while eating, getting your stuff out of transition. With running, you show up (and if you’re like me, you find a parking spot 2 seconds before the start).  You run, you finish, you grab a towel and head home. I’d imagine with the motorsports you describe, you’re putting your machine in the paddock, talking about what modifications you made to it, etc.  You do the event, then you’ve got a bunch of motorheads hanging around afterwards to talk with. Now, I know that motocross is physically strenuous.  As a child, I heard it was the most strenuous, or second most after soccer, or whatever, in a study somebody conducted. But I can’t imagine the feeling after riding motocross is the same feeling you have after a marathon.  I mean, after a marathon… well… I probably don’t need to describe it to you.  You feel like crying, you feel like yelling at some Christian guy named Bob.  It’s just different.  You want to stretch, get some food and liquid, and get clean.  That’s about it.  You’re not thinking, "Gee, I think I’ll hang out and see if I can meet some friends."  What you’re probably thinking is, "Hmmm… I wonder just how big this blister on my right foot really is…" You’re thinking about what it would feel like not to have salt caked all over your body, and how much you’d like to wash the sugar off your hands from the sportsdrink cups, and what a dry pair of shorts and socks would feel like, and well… gee, I guess my legs aren’t SOOO bad, but I sure don’t need to be climbing any stairs today… Also, Motocross is a smaller sport, participant-wise, so those sports tend to be tighter knit.  Same with swimming, same with triathlon.  I agree with the guy who posted that cyclists seem standoffish.  I think, again, that’s the sport, and not the individuals in it.  I’ve always found individual cyclists to be immensely helpful. I am not saying what you’re saying is wrong.  Far from it.  Some of your observations have merit.  I just think that if you put a slightly different spin on it, it may not be so damning.

Response:

Instead of following other opinions, maybe you should study under Mr. Olsen….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Several people have already expressed doubt about your pronouncements. Count me in as another. — Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

Response:

[snip] Boston is an overblown yuppie "I’m better than you" convention.

That’s odd. I saw; Thousands of fellow runners, hundreds of thousands of spectators… And not a single ‘vibe’ about anyone being better than anyone else. Must have been a different Boston. — … tramps like us, Before you buy.

Response:

Without a doubt, in general, runners are the most self absorbed of all athletes.  They only want to discuss themselves and their own running issues and outrun the next person.

But there is doubt, whether you say so or not. Several people have already expressed doubt about your pronouncements. Count me in as another. [snip] I also believe as a group they are more educated which for some reason makes them really want to put others down. Education == put_people_down?  Interesting relationship based on???? I don’t know.  You tell me?  It’s there and it’s real.

Sure, there are educated people who put other people down; and there are uneducated people who put other people down. So what? Boston is an overblown yuppie "I’m better than you" convention.  I’ve done it and I’m moving on…….  I have much less important things to do (stolen from the "Soprano’s").

Funny, I ran Boston some years ago and had exactly the opposite impression. I found almost everybody to be friendly and supportive. So there you have it: two different people, two different impressions. Ain’t it a wonderful world? — Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

Response:

The French are short, rude socialists.

And you’re a short, rude troll. — Gavin Hodgson, Corpus Christi College, Cambridge UK. http://www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/~acapella ; ICQ 25932089    http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=GTG986            Pain is just weakness leaving the body

Response:

I also believe as a group they are more educated which for some reason makes them really want to put others down.

Hmmm.  I don’t think amount of education correlates well to people being snotty and putting people down.  I think the truly educated have a better feel for how little we as people really know which, in some ways leads one to be more compassionate.  I think some of the really snotty people I know have a college degree and maybe a graduate degree which, for some people, is enough education to make them dangerous (and possibly arrogant). Maybe Mr. (Dr.) McConnell dude has a different take on it (or maybe he agrees!!), but work experience and/or a Ph.D has a way of making one more humble.  There is nothing like getting a research article back from a reviewer who has just torched your research which may require extensive revisions to a project you have worked on for a year. Anyway, come out west here and I’ll refer you to some awesome races. David Olsen

Response:

You are a wise man.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I think the truly educated have a better feel for how little we as people really know which, in some ways leads one to be more compassionate. <snip David Olsen

Response:

Okay, here is perhaps the silliest complaint to grace rec.running, but I am curious as to why no-one responded to my last post: a marathon report Friday night at 11:27 pm. My first marathon. Paris, even!

Maybe nobody responded because your report was complete and to the point, failed to have egregious errors of grammar and spelling, eschewed the use of highblown vocabulary (like egregious and eschew) when simple words would do, and generally contained nothing controversial or objectionable. If you expect to be congratulated and stroked for everything you write here you will often be  disappointed. Oh, and congratulations on your first marathon! — Terry R. McConnell   Mathematics/304B Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150

Response:

Maybe it is foolish of me to call attention to myself this way, but in one way or another isn’t that what most people do when they post? Bob

You know what? I thought I’d responded, but I checked my outbox and I responded to marlon’s post about his Paris marathon. Maybe I confused the two. But that’s not much of an excuse for r.r.’s designated cheerleader, so… WAY TO GO, BOB!!!! Seriously, sometimes posts just seem to drop off the end of the earth. Sorry no-one noted your accomplishment. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

Response:

Without a doubt, in general, runners are the most self absorbed of all athletes.  They only want to discuss themselves and their own running issues and outrun the next person. This is a sweeping generalization that may be true in your part of the world but I find without merit in mine. Don’t let the few vocal taint everyone else.

Uhhhhh, at the Boston marathon?  I think there were more than just locals there…….  I live in one of the most hospitable places in the world but I can go to a 10 miler with 50 participants and most will be indifferent at best. I also believe as a group they are more educated which for some reason makes them really want to put others down. Education == put_people_down?  Interesting relationship based on????

I don’t know.  You tell me?  It’s there and it’s real. I ran the Houston marathon in January and had some christian guy (Bob – he had a bible quote on his shirt) almost knock me down about ten times until I yelled at him to get away. Some inconsiderate dolt behaves like a Neanderthal and everyone one else is bad?

That was a typical example.  Just wanted to be specific. The reason no one responds to your post is because they really don’t care what you experienced. Not true but if you think so there is little anyone can do. It’s a shame.  Competition among friends can really be fun. And someone said differently?

My experience has been different. I didn’t read your report but congratulations on the finish.  Now, back to rec.motorcycles.dirt! Maybe your attitude and/or body language puts off bad vibes where people want to knock you down. Feel free to drift back to dirt biking.

Yeah, my attitude and body language puts off bad vibes.  LOL! Whatever…….  it was just an observation.  I did meet some nice people – I ran with a lady that went to the same school as me – we talked for a minute and then she took off!  I also met a guy from Canada that ran 123 miles in 24 hours!  He was interesting and I would have liked to talk to him more.  As I crossed the line, the lady next to me started crying.  I patted her back and congratulated her.  Believe it or not, that’s what running should be about.  I was glad to be there and be able to congratulate her. Boston is an overblown yuppie "I’m better than you" convention.  I’ve done it and I’m moving on…….  I have much less important things to do (stolen from the "Soprano’s"). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Caveat Lector!

Response:

Okay, here is perhaps the silliest complaint to grace rec.running, but I am curious as to why no-one responded to my last post: a marathon report Friday night at 11:27 pm. My first marathon. Paris, even!

I read and liked your report, and I saw some other folks’ responses in that vein. Your ISP’s news server may not have picked them up (such is the nature of Usenet — messages get lost in the ether, not everyone can see all the messages, and it can be frustratingly random at times). (Posted and mailed) Best regards, Brian P. Baresch Lawrence, Kansas, USA Professional editing and proofreading

Response:

The reason no one responds to your post is because they really don’t care what you experienced.

Some truth to this, but the reason I did not respond is because I don’t read this newsgroup on a regular basis. I _do_ care what other have experienced.  Sorry. Competition among friends can really be fun. I didn’t read your report but congratulations on the finish.

I will second this! Congratulations again!   Now, back to rec.motorcycles.dirt!

Now , back to life! Laurie

Response:

I’m not sure if you do compete in motocross! I compete trials which really is a non confrontational sport but I’m part of a motocross club where every week someone complains that they were deliberately  knocked into the ropes by some eager, go for it type. In any sport where there’s competition –  there’ll be foul play. I’d rather be battered by runners than forced into a fence post at 40 mph!! Andrew Soltysik – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I participate in a few other sports besides running – motocross, enduro’s, etc.  I just got back from running Boston and had very few pleasant exchanges with runners before, during, and after the run.  I started running about 6 years ago so that I could be more fit for motocross.  Here’s the way I see it. Without a doubt, in general, runners are the most self absorbed of all athletes.  They only want to discuss themselves and their own running issues and outrun the next person.  I also believe as a group they are more educated which for some reason makes them really want to put others down. It’s a shame that runners are so self absorbed.  Motocross is so much fun because we compete together.  Even though we compete against each other, we are really just trying to beat the track.  When running, I always feel that the person next to me would just as soon knock me down to get me out of the race than beat me heads up.  That just doesn’t happen in motocross.  I ran the Houston marathon in January and had some christian guy (Bob – he had a bible quote on his shirt) almost knock me down about ten times until I yelled at him to get away. The reason no one responds to your post is because they really don’t care what you experienced.  It’s a shame.  Competition among friends can really be fun.  I didn’t read your report but congratulations on the finish.  Now, back to rec.motorcycles.dirt! <snip Maybe it is foolish of me to call attention to myself this way, but in one way or another isn’t that what most people do when they post? Bob

Response:

I participate in a few other sports besides running – motocross, enduro’s, etc.  I just got back from running Boston and had very few pleasant exchanges with runners before, during, and after the run.  I started running about 6 years ago so that I could be more fit for motocross.  Here’s the way I see it. Without a doubt, in general, runners are the most self absorbed of all athletes.  They only want to discuss themselves and their own running issues and outrun the next person.  I also believe as a group they are more educated which for some reason makes them really want to put others down.

It may seem that way (especially in this newsgroup) but I would say that runners can also be the most helpful and compassionate among athletes.  Golfers seem are laid back but seem caught up in money, city league sports (basketball and softball) are full of wannabe athletes that turn into competitve jerks, and competitiion bicycling seem like a bunch of uptight people.  Maybe try some smaller races, it seems that the attitudes improve.  Good luck. David Olsen

Response:

Without a doubt, in general, runners are the most self absorbed of all athletes.  They only want to discuss themselves and their own running issues and outrun the next person.

This is a sweeping generalization that may be true in your part of the world but I find without merit in mine. Don’t let the few vocal taint everyone else. I also believe as a group they are more educated which for some reason makes them really want to put others down.

Education == put_people_down?  Interesting relationship based on???? I ran the Houston marathon in January and had some christian guy (Bob – he had a bible quote on his shirt) almost knock me down about ten times until I yelled at him to get away.

Some inconsiderate dolt behaves like a Neanderthal and everyone one else is bad? The reason no one responds to your post is because they really don’t care what you experienced.  

Not true but if you think so there is little anyone can do. It’s a shame.  Competition among friends can really be fun.

And someone said differently? I didn’t read your report but congratulations on the finish.  Now, back to rec.motorcycles.dirt!

Maybe your attitude and/or body language puts off bad vibes where people want to knock you down. Feel free to drift back to dirt biking. — Caveat Lector!

Response:

Okay, here is perhaps the silliest complaint to grace rec.running …

i thought i’d done my dash in terms of doing a "thanks for spending the time".   congrats on completing it.  as i’m only a month or so away from my 1st one, i find these reviews very interesting.  they have certainly helped to keep me focussed and realisitc about what i can achieve.  i thought your comment about 10minutes seeming like 2 was amusing.  sums up post-race nicely.  perception of time totally munted.  of course, when/if i write a similar report on my first one, i expect you to reply immediately! andy "possibly the most latitudinally challenged poster in rr"

Response:

I participate in a few other sports besides running – motocross, enduro’s, etc.  I just got back from running Boston and had very few pleasant exchanges with runners before, during, and after the run.  I started running about 6 years ago so that I could be more fit for motocross.  Here’s the way I see it. Without a doubt, in general, runners are the most self absorbed of all athletes.  They only want to discuss themselves and their own running issues and outrun the next person.  I also believe as a group they are more educated which for some reason makes them really want to put others down. It’s a shame that runners are so self absorbed.  Motocross is so much fun because we compete together.  Even though we compete against each other, we are really just trying to beat the track.  When running, I always feel that the person next to me would just as soon knock me down to get me out of the race than beat me heads up.  That just doesn’t happen in motocross.  I ran the Houston marathon in January and had some christian guy (Bob – he had a bible quote on his shirt) almost knock me down about ten times until I yelled at him to get away. The reason no one responds to your post is because they really don’t care what you experienced.  It’s a shame.  Competition among friends can really be fun.  I didn’t read your report but congratulations on the finish.  Now, back to rec.motorcycles.dirt! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<snip Maybe it is foolish of me to call attention to myself this way, but in one way or another isn’t that what most people do when they post? Bob

Response:

Actually, I thought I did respond: [begin quote] Good story.  What a rush starting a race down the Chaps Elysees and ’storming’ past the Bastille!  Mob rule’s finest hour! Glaistig Uaine – ventre a terre! [end quote] Jennifer – but the other guy’s right, they’re just rude socialists

Response:

The French are short, rude socialists. Fuck ‘em. DARE To End The War On Drugs

Response:

Okay, here is perhaps the silliest complaint to grace rec.running, but I am curious as to why no-one responded to my last post: a marathon report Friday night at 11:27 pm. My first marathon. Paris, even! A great report. Okay, so I am biased. But no-one responded. Not a well done, or yeah mile 23 is hard, or even "That time doesn’t count as running." Nothing. I think the fact that my title was very similiar to another report from someone else who ran Paris may have made people think they already read it. He got four responses. His report was impressive, and I believe he deserved the kudos. I did not run the marathon just for other people to compliment me. Though I must admit I enjoy it. I may perhaps post to rec.running and write marathon reports with the idea that people will read them and respond. Maybe it is foolish of me to call attention to myself this way, but in one way or another isn’t that what most people do when they post? Bob

Response:

Question:

As a sponsor, if you convince me, you deserve what you get from me, if you choose to accept it over another company.  But you need to convince me and any other company.  We sponsors look at it as a business, not a philanthropic gesture.  

Emilio: You need to sponsor more of us Boppers.  You’ll get soooo much more for your dollar since we’re out there sooooo much longer! I mean, people see me out there at IM for 16 hours, compared to a piddling 8 or 9 for all those fast guys. You’d get more air time. <g Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

Mike,  This is the logic my 68 year old father uses for me sponsoring him.  He is oiut the forever, and the entire time he is talking to people telling them how great De Soto Sport is.  He is a ham, especially with the women, but they love him and he sells product! Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

Response:

Emilio, Good post, and it brings up situations and points that I was wondering about. Actually all the responses have been interesting and thought-provoking. Best, Mark

Response:

Emilio You need to sponsor me too! As a Clydesdale, I have much more surface area available as advertising space! Bob IMC 92 13:42 IMC 97 14:57 IMC 99 ??:??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a sponsor, if you convince me, you deserve what you get from me, if you choose to accept it over another company.  But you need to convince me and any other company.  We sponsors look at it as a business, not a philanthropic gesture. Mikes blatant begging snipped <<

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Son? I’m so proud of you! We all are… Mum, aunt Susie, Cousin Fred and of course, Aunt Jason… Bob! BTW My Swim/splits are also an avg of 9:40! Coincidence of genes?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dad? Tom Price son of Bob 6-3 205 13 IMC ‘ and counting 24 IMs and counting PR 9:12 avg 9:40 just wondered Tom

Response:

We are stoked to be racing!  See you at SB traithlon.  Go Gauchos! Emilio Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

Response:

Dad? Tom Price son of Bob 6-3 205 13 IMC ‘ and counting 24 IMs and counting PR 9:12 avg 9:40 just wondered Tom

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Oh, this is just great!  I decide to get involved in triathlon and I find that my age group is the toughest! (40 – 44)  I mean, it’s not like I didn’t really know this from road races but to find that there are pros in my age group…. well… go figure….. I’ve said it all along.  I know in road races more than one pr has been faster than some younger ag’s winners but left me 5th or 6th in mine!  (Whine, whine, whine….) Sigh,…. anyway…. I wear your tri singlets while training both riding and running now days.  It is VERY hot and humid here (next to the Okefenokee Swamp!)and they seem to fit the environment just right  The runners in our track club in southern Georgia now know of your product as well. I will wear one (let me see, red or blue?  Decisions, decisions….) at my next tri in a couple of weeks.  A very nice product. So, how’s your tri shorts? Allen

Response:

Sigh,…. anyway…. I wear your tri singlets while training both riding and running now days.  It is VERY hot and humid here (next to the Okefenokee Swamp!)and they seem to fit the environment just right  The runners in our track club in southern Georgia now know of your product as well.

Allen: Where are you? Waycross? Mike "St. Simons Island" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

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Thanks to Emilio for sponsoring the UCSB triathlon team of which I am a member. Your gear is great.  I have seen  Emilio’s Dad  in action at the LA series –  he is a great at promoting the company. Also, although I am part of a collegaite team I am actually 36 years old (Ph.D student) and compete in the same catergory as Pete Kain and Emilio De Soto II.  I love having the standard set by these guys.  It makes me feel good that people my age can perform so well. BTW, if any of you are doing the Santa Barbara County triathlon next week check out Hazard’s bike shop.  They are very triathlete friendly and provide outstanding service.  They too have been very good to the UCSB tri team. Peter Egan Delahunt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike,  This is the logic my 68 year old father uses for me sponsoring him.  He is oiut the forever, and the entire time he is talking to people telling them how great De Soto Sport is.  He is a ham, especially with the women, but they love him and he sells product! Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

Response:

Pete is in my age group.  He beats me all the time.  I am happy about this. Why?  When I started my clothing business, and for many years after leaving the pro scene, I caught a lot of crap from people because I was racing age group. People called me a sand bagger, trophy steeler, merchandise whore.  I tried to enter only races with Elite categories.  Here I never got prize money and never got age group points.  I was in Triathlete Purgatory. Finally after 7 years of not racing pro, and working many hours during week, I decided to ignore those comments from the age groupers that finished behind me.  Now I have to race in against quite a few former pros like Pete, Tony Richardson, and all the tough East Coasters.  It feels good to have tough competition.  I thrive on it.  I like going to a race knowing I am really going to have to work to win my age group.  After 19 years of racing, I still feel like a little kid waiting for Santa the night before a race. Pete and I still race to win our age group, we want those USAT points, but we also look at our overall results.  We like to try to beat the younger age groups and the toughest of all, the 40-44(they have the biggest depth in most national race results). Regarding Pete’s sponsorships, what he gets in the way of money or merchandise, or deals, he deserves.  You see, neither the athlete nor the sponsoring company should care if someone is a pro.  I am both an athlete that has sponsors and the owner of a company  (albiet small dollars) that sponsors. As an athlete, I try to convince companies how they can benefit from sponsoring me.  If I succeed, I deserve what I get, just like Pete does,  regardless of race category. As a sponsor, if you convince me, you deserve what you get from me, if you choose to accept it over another company.  But you need to convince me and any other company.  We sponsors look at it as a business, not a philanthropic gesture.  Philathropies are a completely different subject (a personal subject I get involved in that I do not look at as a business opportunity). Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

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Question:

I’ve got a wetsuit to try out now, and wanna know where’s a good place in Marin to test it in the open water. Any faves people are willing to share? Ron ‘nie Weismuller.Not.’ Gilcreast

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You probably know this, but in case you don’t, I’d make the extra 10-15 minute drive to Aquatic Park in San Francisco.  Its in the bay, there are plenty of other people out there, its enclosed (mostly), and there are buoys along the shore if you’re nervous.  There are usually a few sailboats parked in there as well, between a few boats and buoys, you can make up a course and practice spotting.  I park at the end of Van Ness.  I wear junky sweats over my swimsuit and change into my wetsuit at the east end of the beach. No one ever took my sweats sitting there (maybe because they were junky?) I’m new to Marin, so I don’t know where the swim spots are.  The water is pretty calm and sheltered just at the North end of the GG bridge by the Children’s Discovery Museum (the GG bridge swim race finished there), but you’re really on your own there. Unless someone gives you a good Marin tip, I’d go for Aquatic Park.  On the slim chance that you needed help, I would think there would be plenty more people there, both in the water and on the shore. Good luck, Fred.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a wetsuit to try out now, and wanna know where’s a good place in Marin to test it in the open water. Any faves people are willing to share? Ron ‘nie Weismuller.Not.’ Gilcreast

Response:

I’ve got a wetsuit to try out now, and wanna know where’s a good place in Marin to test it in the open water. Any faves people are willing to share?

Paradise Cove in Tiburon. Our open water swim group was there in April. Also, China Camp-McNear’s Beach County Park. For a list of SFBSA workouts, see: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/sfbsa.html Regards, Lee Rudin San Francisco Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

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Question:

I finally recieved my Vineman packet yesterday.  I called Raceday, the beverage supplier for the race, to try ad obtain samples to make sure it sat with my GI tract.  The guy at Raceday said they only sell biug vats to the actual race (enough to make something like 16 gallons, I think it was, although I may still have been delusional at the time).  Anyway, he said it’s pretty cross-tolerant with Gatorade. The Bertha Gary P. Chimes MD/PhD Student

Response:

I finally recieved my Vineman packet yesterday.  I called Raceday, the beverage supplier for the race, to try ad obtain samples to make sure it sat with my GI tract.  The guy at Raceday said they only sell biug vats to the actual race (enough to make something like 16 gallons, I think it was, although I may still have been delusional at the time).  Anyway, he said it’s pretty cross-tolerant with Gatorade.

I had stomach cramps most of the way through Wildflower.  Later, after I experimented with different combos of drinks, bars and gels during workouts, I figured out that it was because I had switched from Apple-flavored Cytomax to Orange-flavored Cytomax.  The difference between the two is that Orange Cytomax contains various herbal stimulants that don’t sit well with my system.  I had used the Orange Cytomax exactly once before the race — not enough to know if it would work for me or not. I learned once again that one of the unbreakable rules of triathlon is "nothing new on race day."  Even if it’s called Race Day. I’m sticking with Cytomax, Power Gel, VO2 Max & Power Bars, and water at Vineman.  It’s just going to take a little extra planning. The Carmel Group "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Response:

I learned once again that one of the unbreakable rules of triathlon is "nothing new on race day."  Even if it’s called Race Day. I’m sticking with Cytomax, Power Gel, VO2 Max & Power Bars, and water at Vineman.  It’s just going to take a little extra planning. The Carmel Group "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Full Vineman participants: The Vineman doesn’t have a formal "special needs" bag handoff station, so here’s my suggestion if you want to stick to your food formulae: Get a friend to meet you at the mile 50 aid station and have him/her hand you a bag.  This is legal in this race.  It has to be at one of the aid stations, and be sure that they stay out of the way (although my dad ended up helping other riders with bottle handoffs). But it was wonderful getting two icey cold Cytomax bottles and other goodies for the next 62 miles ahead. One more piece of advice:  drink the Pepsi on the run!  I wish I’d known how valuable it can be earlier Good luck in what should be a great race. Cheers, Vaughn — Vaughn Cooper Center for Microbial Ecology, Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824 (517) 353-3953/3955 voice/fax

Response:

Race Day is now available in 2.5 gallon pouches.  This is enough to fill 16-20 water bottles.  Please call 1-888-459-2376 to place an order.  Coming soon retail sized foil pouches, and Pro Enhancer a gm of choline in a 4 oz. shot.  Look for us at Vineman, National City, and Columbia MD.and F.I.R.M events in New England, among other races. Tom Cox InterNutria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I finally recieved my Vineman packet yesterday.  I called Raceday, the beverage supplier for the race, to try ad obtain samples to make sure it sat with my GI tract.  The guy at Raceday said they only sell biug vats to the actual race (enough to make something like 16 gallons, I think it was, although I may still have been delusional at the time).  Anyway, he said it’s pretty cross-tolerant with Gatorade. The Bertha Gary P. Chimes MD/PhD Student

Response:

Race Day is now available in 2.5 gallon pouches.  This is enough to fill 16-20 water bottles.  Please call 1-888-459-2376 to place an order. Coming soon retail sized foil pouches, and Pro Enhancer a gm of choline in a 4 oz. shot.  Look for us at Vineman, National City, and Columbia MD.and F.I.R.M events in New England, among other races. Tom Cox InterNutria

What I fail to understand is that a NEW product is going to be sprung on us, if WE so desire to use it, but the sponsor could have easily sent us a pouch or two ahead of time so we could determine if our bodies would accept/reject…we could have received this information with our registration packet…2.5 gallon puches are quite large…do you make the individual, or is the 2.5 gallon for group rides? so where are my samples? does is come in more than one flavor ???

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Question:

The 14th Annual Torii Station Triathlon

Hi Mike Glad to hear that u finished your race despite your illness, get well soon best regards Hannes

Response:

The 14th Annual Torii Station Triathlon First piont of mention is to all you folks who were kind enough to respond to request for help thanks again.  This was my first race and I had set a goal to get in under 3 hours. I ended up with 3:06 but I’m happy I’ll explain later.real br The staff at the race was fantastic and really pulled it off well.  they really got caught with thier pants down when 140 folks showed up to race.  that is quite a few folks for this little island and they weren’t expecting it.         Back tothe race.  The ocean wwas very unforgiving this A.M. and those who didn’t have tinted goggles were wishing they did on the last 500m leg to shore.  the glare was nasty.  The tides weren’t very friendly either.   Came out of the water at 43 min. and was feeling really good.  It was not a real smooth transition and I didn’t start the bike leg until 53 min.  ( at this piont I forgot about my watch and have no clue about my splits)           the bike leg  ( as at least 2 of you know ) starts with a short flat then a hill.  Can’t speak to the grade all I know is that it is steep! and long.  Didn’t get my bike legs under me until the 2nd lap ( of 7) but things were going well when a good friend who is an accplomished tri-guy passed me on the next to last lap.  thought I could catch and I pushed hard into the turn CRASH  I lost about 12 minutes fixing my bike and about 1/2 pound of flesh.  Finished the bike without further incident.         Run was dismal.  the crash sort of took out my running legs ( that is my story and I’m sticking to it!) and I just couldn’t get into a decent stride.  But finished none the less.  I placed 63rd out of 140 with a crash and folks I’m hooked!          The course here so I’ve been told is a pretty tough one.  But the biggest problem is the heat.  The swim started at 0730 and by 0800 it is over 90 degrees and it just keeps getting hotter.  But stayed tanked up on h2o and gue and all went well.         Lessons learned:  Vasaline under arms, and Don’t crash. thought for the day:  never chase the indian who stole your gattling gun! Take care all mike

Response:

Question:

: Because of recent requirements to travel and time constraints at home, I : have been forced to do a fair amount of training on stationary bikes. : Although sitting for 60 mins. or more on a static bike with an : uncomfortable seat and only one wheel is not my idea of cycling, it’s : better than nothing.   There are advantages though.  For example, you can put your keyboard on the aerobars and type away when you’re on an easier stretch.  ;-)  Not that I know anyone who does that…  ;-) : My question is can you equate watt or calorie output to mph?  and : what watt output makes a hill (and at what watt output per percentage : grade (if known)) I’m not really sure about other machines, but I know they equate very well on CompuTrainer.  I’m not sure about the Lifecycle style machines. : I’ve used a heart rate monitor to gauge my workouts, but I’ve wondered : about using watts and/or calorie output too.  Any thoughts? Only thought I have is that you can compare one workout to another.  If, for example, 500cal/30 minutes seems to be an easy pace, push for 600cal in 30 minutes your next workout.  That way you can at least guage relative difficulty? Yes, I’ll admit I have over 1500 miles on the trainer this year… — Jason Mayfield     Arlington, VA http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa Sick & Twisted Site of the Day: http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa/sick.html "Do or do not, there is no ‘try’"  - Yoda     32 Days Until Ironman Canada

Response:

RST Stationary Bike trainers: Because of recent requirements to travel and time constraints at home, I have been forced to do a fair amount of training on stationary bikes. Although sitting for 60 mins. or more on a static bike with an uncomfortable seat and only one wheel is not my idea of cycling, it’s better than nothing.   I have noticed that many of these models have common features, i.e. calories burned total and per hour, rpm, watts produced, mph.  I have found that the watts produced don’t always equate to mph on every machine the same way.  I’ve tried Lifecycle and StarTrac among other models. My question is can you equate watt or calorie output to mph?  and what watt output makes a hill (and at what watt output per percentage grade (if known)) I’ve used a heart rate monitor to gauge my workouts, but I’ve wondered about using watts and/or calorie output too.  Any thoughts? Tucker Newberry on ruminations while spinning and watching CNN

Response:

Reference attached POST on the caloric requirements of cycling.

First, check out Dr. Richard Raforth’s WEB site (www.halcyon.com/gasman). Richard is a physician and experienced cyclist. I’ve found his WebPage to be the most informative single Website that I’ve run across. His Webpage will address your question in some detail. He also has a book (Bicycling Fuel, Nutrition for Bicycle Riders) that is clearly applicable to any endurance sport. It is a really good deal at only around $10 (see his URL for ordering info). It has information about the caloric requirements of exercize beyond what you will find at his WebSite. I’m a very inexperienced cyclist, have yet to compete in a triathlon, but I probably have a couple thousand ‘miles’ on a Lifecycle. I’ll put my experience and Dr. Raforth’s numbers (stolen from his Webpage/book) in for general info. A 75 kg rider on a 10 kg bike (165/22 lbs) on a windless flat road will use the following Calories per hour (his book has a complete table and his Website has a summary table).   Speed(mph) Cal/hour   20         797   22         1019   24         1283 This is calories ‘burned’ and not work output. According to Dr. Raforth, 25% efficiency is a good assumption for work output vs. energy input for a human machine.   When I get on a Lifecycle and just want to do some aerobic work I will pedal at level 8 (1063 cal/hour). I don’t have a heart rate monitor and don’t know my max heart rate anymore, but this is clearly below 75% max. When I go out to ride and am on a smooth, flat surface on a windless day (is there such a thing in the Livermore Valley?) I will probably be going 21 – 22 mph, so this makes sense. When I step the Lifecycle up to level 10 (1211 cal/hour) I am clearly on the other side of my anaerobic threshold, will be sucking some pretty serious wind in 15 minutes, etc. Probably about the same as 24-25 mph (have never raced, but I would not expect to average 24 mph or better in any race an hour or longer). Again this seems to make sense. If you are so inclined you could take your weight (plus bike) and calculate the work required to climb any grade (weight times verticle climb = ft-lbs), convert to Calories (around 3100 ft-lbs/Calorie), and add energy required for the speed you want to maintain (assuming flat ground) to the energy required to move you and your bike vertically (remember to divide by .25 because we are dealing with a 25% efficient machine), and find an equivalent climb. I’ve never bothered, but I do occasionally drop my cadence on the Lifecycle to better simulate my pathetic climbing abilities (I know that they are poor and am not interested in the numbers that prove that).   But check out Richard’s Website. I’ll bet you buy his book before its over. dave writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RST Stationary Bike trainers: Because of recent requirements to travel and time constraints at home, I have been forced to do a fair amount of training on stationary bikes. Although sitting for 60 mins. or more on a static bike with an uncomfortable seat and only one wheel is not my idea of cycling, it’s better than nothing.   I have noticed that many of these models have common features, i.e. calories burned total and per hour, rpm, watts produced, mph.  I have found that the watts produced don’t always equate to mph on every machine the same way.  I’ve tried Lifecycle and StarTrac among other models. My question is can you equate watt or calorie output to mph?  and what watt output makes a hill (and at what watt output per percentage grade (if known)) I’ve used a heart rate monitor to gauge my workouts, but I’ve wondered about using watts and/or calorie output too.  Any thoughts? Tucker Newberry on ruminations while spinning and watching CNN

Response:

Because of recent requirements to travel and time constraints at home, I have been forced to do a fair amount of training on stationary bikes [snip] My question is can you equate watt or calorie output to mph?  and what watt output makes a hill (and at what watt output per percentage grade (if known)) I’ve used a heart rate monitor to gauge my workouts, but I’ve wondered about using watts and/or calorie output too.  Any thoughts?

I have some information, spreadsheets and a java program that may be of interest to you at the site referenced below.  The programs estimate velocity for given power inputs, and also provide calories expended. — Curt Austin          http://www.iac.net/~curta/ Cincinnati, Ohio

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Question:

Linda, we don’t have anything scheduled in town for the weekend of June 3.  There is a 5K in Daytona Beach on June 3, you can get info. at 904-238-4728.  Hope you enjoy your visit.  Jacksonville is a great town to run and live in.

Response:

Hi, I’ll be staying in Jacksonville June 3-6 and would like to enter a local race – anything from 5K to 10 miles.  Does anyone know of any? Thanks, Linda

Response:

Hi, I’ll be staying in Jacksonville June 3-6 and would like to enter a local race – anything from 5K to 10 miles.  Does anyone know of any? Thanks, Linda

Linda: I don’t have any listed for that time period right now, but check the Webrunner occasionally. If I find one I’ll post it there. — WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Club & Race Listings 200+ listings. Advertise your race. Club Home Pages. http://www.catalog.com/webrun/running/running.html

Response:

According to my Florida Track Club newsletter, there are no footraces going on that weekend.  There is a triathlon: S-1/2m, B-16m, R-4m.  For info on that call (904) 273-7707.

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