top ten triathlons of 2000 | Triathlete

Question:

Hmm. Missed this thread the first time around. I got hit the the head by a fastball when I was a boy, fell off the rings on my head in gymnastics in high school and got hit on the head with a golf ball crossing an athletic field in college. None of these things happened when I was an infant, so this explains why I didn’t take up triathlon until I was in the 40-44 age group. –Lee Crumbaugh (Tri-Hard) P.S. Hi Ruth.

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I was wasting time looking for nothing. In addition to successfully finding nothing I came across an rst thread from a bit more than a year ago. Seeing it all on one page struck me as really nutty, the best I’ve seen on any newsgroup. The subject is Why Do I Do Triathlons or something like that. It’s at: http://www.imb-jena.de/~csc/Tria_net/what_makes.html Ruth Kazez

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Ruth, I do triathlons because I keep meeting people like you, Rich DaVico, Mike, Phil, well, I could just go on with this. It’s the race directors. volunteers and countless triathletes that provide my motivation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wasting time looking for nothing. In addition to successfully finding nothing I came across an rst thread from a bit more than a year ago. Seeing it all on one page struck me as really nutty, the best I’ve seen on any newsgroup. The subject is Why Do I Do Triathlons or something like that. It’s at: http://www.imb-jena.de/~csc/Tria_net/what_makes.html Ruth Kazez

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ruth, I do triathlons because I keep meeting people like you, Rich DaVico, Mike, Phil, well, I could just go on with this. It’s the race directors. volunteers and countless triathletes that provide my motivation. I was wasting time looking for nothing. In addition to successfully finding nothing I came across an rst thread from a bit more than a year ago. Seeing it all on one page struck me as really nutty, the best I’ve seen on any newsgroup. The subject is Why Do I Do Triathlons or something like that. It’s at: http://www.imb-jena.de/~csc/Tria_net/what_makes.html Ruth Kazez

Dad, Did you by any chance drop me on my head when I was an infant? I do remember something about hitting a coffee table. Maybe that explains it. Rich DaVico

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Question:

Let’s start with the basics. When you sit on a flat surface, your weight is supported by the "sit bones" (Ischial tuberosities) which are part of your pelvis. This keeps your weight from pressing against the soft tissue (muslces, nerves and blood vessels) in your peri area (perinium- the area between your rectum and your genitals), which is *not* designed to support your weight. Your sit bones should also be the part of you supporting your weight on a bicycle saddle.

Totally 100% agree! Unfortunately, most modern bicycle saddles seem to be designed for very narrow-pelvis individuals.

Yes – and just who are these people? Sometimes it seems that designers think that Marco Pantani is you typical cyclist. These saddles may not be wide enough to support your sit bones, with the result that your weight is concentrated on your peri area which results in pain, numbness, etc. An upright sitting position, preferred by many people, only makes matters worse by putting more of your weight on your butt and also rotating your pelvis into a more upright position.

I think we are singing from the same hymn-sheet… For most people, a comfortable saddle is one that’s widen enough to firmly support the sit bones and keep pressure off the perinium. There are two characteristics of comfortable saddles, actually: width and flatness. Overly soft, heavily padded or gel saddles often are more uncomfortable than a firm, wide, flat saddle because the material "bunches up" under the peri area.

This concurs exactly with my experience! Here are a few suggestions for wider, flatter saddles: WTB (Wilderness Trail Bikes) SST Brooks B.17 Champion Standard, B.72, B.66, etc (bit not all Brooks saddles; Pro and Swift are narrower) Avocet Air 02 40M (for men) or W (? I think, for women; R is narrower for racing)

Let’s face it, what self-respecting lycra fettishist is going to be seen dead astride a B17. So many of my cycling friends (particularly women who seem to be more prone to saddle-sensitivity than men) baulk at the idea of fitting their latest shiney Italian masterpiece with what they percieve as an old-man’s cardigan of a saddle. Well I have happily gone one step further down the road of unfashionability and ride a "Champion Flyer" – basically a B17 with springs. — Baker Atlas GEOScience Tel: +44 (0)208 202 2433 154 Brent Street, FAX: +44 (0)208 202 2287 London, NW4 2DR, ENGLAND. WWW: http://www.zands.com

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Specialized Body Geometry comp and the Terry Liberator Fly Saddle

I have used both, and returned them. Make sure you can do the same. I think they are both too soft. It feels cushy in the store, but with my 180# on it it they crush down and are worse than a harder saddle. Others have written here about sitting on their ischial tuberosities. However, in the aero position you will not be. You will be rotated forward and sittting on the softer places. No saddle company as yet addressed this problem with any effective solution. Also as others said, it will be your own personal search for the best saddle for you. I would say this as a rule of thumb. Look for a saddle that has a nose that curves down, for that "ride the nose" aero tri position. The Specialized Body Geometry does not. If you can crush the saddle cushioning easily in the store with your hand don’t buy it. Beyond those tow things it is a shot in the dark to finally find what works for you. Barring all that, if you do have a tolerable saddle that maybe just needs a wee bit better comfort, then try a QR saddle cover and see how that works. They are only about $20. Were we all riding mountain bikes or regular road bikes the saddle problem is much more easily solved because you essentially ride in a more upright position and can utilize some of the features in the newer saddles. My mountain bike has a comfortable saddle, but I cannot just switch it over to my tri bike. It fails to be good enough for that use. Ken (still searching himself for that "perfect" tri saddle)

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However, in the aero position you will not be. You will be rotated forward and sittting on the softer places. No saddle company as yet addressed this problem with any effective solution. Also as others said, it will be your own personal search for the best saddle for you.

My solution for this problem is to skew the saddle .5 cm one way or the other and then to sit on the big muscle down there instead of the soft stuff. See John Cobb’s suggestions at bicyclesports.com Using this method I have been riding a Flite since they were 1st introduced (10 years or so) with no problems even on very long rides. Good luck and happy sitting! Never give up, Be satisfied w/ your best, Do unto others…..

Response:

Others have written here about sitting on their ischial tuberosities. However, in the aero position you will not be. You will be rotated forward and sittting on the softer places. No saddle company as yet addressed this problem with any effective solution. Also as others said, it will be your own personal search for the best saddle for you. Ken (still searching himself for that "perfect" tri saddle)

I am getting ready for the MS150 ride from Houston to Austin, so I’ve been going on longer rides. My saddle, which was perfectly good for 25 mile rides, gets very uncomfortable for longer rides. Is it just a fact of life that long rides will hurt? Is it possible to find a saddle that is _reasonably_ comfortable to sit on for hours at a time? I’m going to talk with my LBS and see if they can help; I was just wondering if I’m looking for a holy grail or something which can actually be achieved. Thoughts? Vanessa "sore" Smith

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My saddle, which was perfectly good for 25 mile rides, gets very uncomfortable for longer rides. Is it just a fact of life that long rides will hurt? Is it possible to find a saddle that is _reasonably_ comfortable to sit on for hours at a time?

It is possible!! Remember, it is just not the saddle, but also saddle adjustment. have someone assist you w/ for/aft, tilt, skew, and height. Obviously there is no magic formula so what you need is a good start and then some trial and error. Good LSBs will let you demo a saddle. David Never give up, Be satisfied w/ your best, Do unto others…..

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Keep trying as suggested… the saddles I ride now, different ones for different applications (road,mtn,triathlon) were chosen to keep me comfortable for short and long rides. Certainly try saddles with different amounts of tilt though the knee over pedal is a good rule to follow for fore-aft positioning. Also, expensive saddles don’t equate to comfort for everyone. Some (certainly not all) saddles though do need a period to break in. My Avocet O2 is my favorite road saddle and it took about 1500km before it was nice and gentle on my backside. Cheers, Jason – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Others have written here about sitting on their ischial tuberosities. However, in the aero position you will not be. You will be rotated forward and sittting on the softer places. No saddle company as yet addressed this problem with any effective solution. Also as others said, it will be your own personal search for the best saddle for you. Ken (still searching himself for that "perfect" tri saddle) I am getting ready for the MS150 ride from Houston to Austin, so I’ve been going on longer rides. My saddle, which was perfectly good for 25 mile rides, gets very uncomfortable for longer rides. Is it just a fact of life that long rides will hurt? Is it possible to find a saddle that is _reasonably_ comfortable to sit on for hours at a time? I’m going to talk with my LBS and see if they can help; I was just wondering if I’m looking for a holy grail or something which can actually be achieved. Thoughts? Vanessa "sore" Smith

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Mark, I use the Serfas Cosmos seat and love it. Have one on my racing and training bike. DJ (junior triathlete)

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I am looking for a new saddle. I have a Cannodale R1000 with the stock saddle and am thinking about trying one of the more anatomic saddles. I have looked at the Specialized Body Geometry comp and the Terry Liberator Fly Saddle but have not ridden either one. Im just trying to get a saddle that is more comfortable on longer rides. Any information or recommendations with this saddle would be great. Thanks, Mark Roberts

Before throwing away that saddle, you might want to modify it to see if you can make it to work for you. Assuming that your stock saddle is the cheaper type with a molded polyethylene shell, you can cut out a relief hole by drilling a series of connecting holes with a hand drill and a pair of tin snips. Here is one that I have so modified: http://www.geocities.com/thoblahbui/saddledrilledandcut.jpg Start with a small cut-out, and increase as you go, esp. if you’re ….generously built; else you may find yourself riding for a few miles with a broken saddle. Tho

Response:

I am looking for a new saddle. I have a Cannodale R1000 with the stock saddle and am thinking about trying one of the more anatomic saddles. I have looked at the Specialized Body Geometry comp and the Terry Liberator Fly Saddle but have not ridden either one. Im just trying to get a saddle that is more comfortable on longer rides. Any information or recommendations with this saddle would be great.

Let’s start with the basics. When you sit on a flat surface, your weight is supported by the "sit bones" (Ischial tuberosities) which are part of your pelvis. This keeps your weight from pressing against the soft tissue (muslces, nerves and blood vessels) in your peri area (perinium- the area between your rectum and your genitals), which is *not* designed to support your weight. Your sit bones should also be the part of you supporting your weight on a bicycle saddle. Unfortunately, most modern bicycle saddles seem to be designed for very narrow-pelvis individuals. These saddles may not be wide enough to support your sit bones, with the result that your weight is concentrated on your peri area which results in pain, numbness, etc. An upright sitting position, preferred by many people, only makes matters worse by putting more of your weight on your butt and also rotating your pelvis into a more upright position. For most people, a comfortable saddle is one that’s widen enough to firmly support the sit bones and keep pressure off the perinium. There are two characteristics of comfortable saddles, actually: width and flatness. Overly soft, heavily padded or gel saddles often are more uncomfortable than a firm, wide, flat saddle because the material "bunches up" under the peri area. Here are a few suggestions for wider, flatter saddles: WTB (Wilderness Trail Bikes) SST Brooks B.17 Champion Standard, B.72, B.66, etc (bit not all Brooks saddles; Pro and Swift are narrower) Avocet Air 02 40M (for men) or W (? I think, for women; R is narrower for racing) I have had personal experience with the WTB, Avocet Air 02 40M and the B.17 and Brooks Pro. I like ‘em all; my favorite is the B.17 which fitted me like a glove from the start, although many people report needing lengthy and uncomfortable break-in periods for these saddles. The WTB is a very firm saddle, looks a little odd but so far I have liked it quite a bit. I use the Avocet on my folding bike and haven’t had as much experience with it yet, but it has been nice for rides up to 45 miles; I previously had the Racing model which was, for me, an ass-hatchet but I know other people who relly like them. YBMV (you butt may vary) Hope this helps.

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Question:

Sometimes people take these things a bit too seriously. I’m reminded of one of the funniest things that has happened to me as an athlete. I was running down a street that was having some repairs. Wasn’t wearing anything particularly sexy – long baggy t-shirt and black lycra tights. Some guy in a pick-up truck happened to see me and started staring at me as he drove into the barrier marking the road repair! It was even funnier since there were some roofers working on nearby house who saw the whole thing happen. Totally cracked me up and made my day!

I’m in Montreal this week, and this city is enjoying unseasonably warm weather. The nice-looking women (very broadly^H^H^H^H^H loosely defined, too) either dress very scantily, or wear clothing so tight that you can see goosebumps through the cloth. My point in mentioning this is not an expression of the usual frustrated American male voyeurism, of which I am admittedly and happily guilty, nor the fact that I’m depressed about turning 41 and describing my love life in terms of looking at strangers. My point is that the women here are completely un-selfconscious about displaying their bodies. Even businesswomen dress to emphasize their femininity here. I think that’s the European influence. But the difference is only partly the women. The men are also different. The men here are, I’m sure, just as horny as the U.S. tourists. But they don’t want anyone else to know it, and they keep it discreet. If they visibly notice a woman by, for example, drooling on her desk at the office, they lose their machismo, and they’d rather have that than anything else. So, the women dress boldly enough to attract attention from men who show how tough they are by pretending not to notice. The situation escalates until the men become outward cynics that are impressed by nothing, and the women exhibitionists. If it was sick, I’d be bothered by it. But they all play the game without a care in the world. In fact, they seem very content with their looks, and I don’t see much evidence of, ah, enhancement here as I do in the U.S. Who am I to pass judgement? I saw exactly the same thing in Copenhagen. Instead of passing judgement, I just admire the view. But I don’t credit all this harmony to noble cross-gender respect. In that department, Europeans are no better off than any of the rest of us. In any case, however, their style is not compatible with ours, and problems are likely with American men as well as women when mixed with opposite genders and cultures. If American men would put their eyes back in their heads, maybe American women wouldn’t be so self-conscious about showing off their femininity. Rick "Missing my ex-girlfriend more than usual today" Denney

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In speaking with a few female triathlete friends after St.A’s….They all confirmed the same sentiments……some of us men triathletes feel the need to say things with sexual overtones, like they are hanging out in a bar. All four women(all nice looking) indicated that it happens at most races……things like "nice butt", "wow you look good in that outfit", and worse. I would like to know why guys feel they need to do this and if any other women seem to have this problem, I just thought id throw this out for comments.

Response:

In speaking with a few female triathlete friends after St.A’s….They all confirmed the same sentiments……some of us men triathletes feel the need to say things with sexual overtones, like they are hanging out in a bar. All four women(all nice looking) indicated that it happens at most races……things like "nice butt", "wow you look good in that outfit", and worse. I would like to know why guys feel they need to do this and if any other women seem to have this problem, I just thought id throw this out for comments.

these are probably the males with too much testosterone in their bodies.. they are probably the same males who pass other males and make degrading comments about their equipment. having participated in sports all my life, i have yet to find a sport where there are not people like this. the best thing i can say is to take it as a compliment and just ignore whatever else comes out of their mouths. or just tell them to go screw themselves..

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I received an email from someone who commented that…."you dont think that women do the same thing"…No i dont…..I am a man, and i know it may occur once in a bue moon…but men are doing this every race….it can not be defended…it is inappropriate behavior.

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It’s terrible. Women do it to me in races all the time. Even when I’m out on training runs, these middle aged women in BMWs blow their horn and hoot at me out their windows. It makes me feel dirty. I know what they’re thinking. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I received an email from someone who commented that…."you dont think that women do the same thing"…No i dont…..I am a man, and i know it may occur once in a bue moon…but men are doing this every race….it can not be defended…it is inappropriate behavior.

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Ray, I commute either by bike or by running. One morning, running in a singlet and shorts, a car full of teenyboppers hooted at me (Im 37). i KNEW that they were just doing it because I was there and they were a car full of highschool girls, but i STILL was pumped up all day… go figure. On a serious note, however, sexism has no place in sport. I had a friend in Oregon, or rather an aquantaince, and gave her the benefit of the doubt because she was a swimmer and triathlete. Turned out she was the devil spawn and would sooner run you off the road as give you the time of day. Kinda like the adage, bad things happen to good people, Bad people occasionally do good things kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s terrible. Women do it to me in races all the time. Even when I’m out on training runs, these middle aged women in BMWs blow their horn and hoot at me out their windows. It makes me feel dirty. I know what they’re thinking. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD

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these are probably the males with too much testosterone in their bodies..

wow, who is as frustrated as to say such bullshit? I’ve got a lot of testosterone in my body, at least I hope, and I’m more proud of it than ashamed… I am a very happy engaged man, with a-bso-lu-te-ly no frustration on "that" matter, I am the luckiest guy in the world with this lady. Yet, that does not prevent me from giving a compliment to a lady if she looks nice in her outfit. Ladies tend to look even prettier in outfits, that’s a fact. What is wrong in giving them a nice compliment? You’ll ask: "yes, but if you’re not interested, what’s the point in giving a compliment?". You are right, there is NO point, just you are pleased by seeing the other one, and you tell her because if she is "normal", she will appreciate the compliment, and that simply makes you happy (for no reason). And that’s ALL. No dirty thoughts. Why, every time you say sthg nice to somebody else, it is that you expect sthg in return??? When a girl tells me I look good in MY outfit, I don’t think she wants my body so bad, I appreciate the compliment. I just think: "Cool, I look good in my outfit". If some triathlete women are offended by such remarks, they – maybe – need to get a normal life, where it’s normal to enjoy receiving a compliment. (yet, ok, not all the guys are clean-minded) Except for a few perverts, those doing these compliments just tried to say sthg nice. they are probably the same males who pass other males and make degrading comments about their equipment.

the best thing i can say is to take it as a compliment and just ignore whatever else comes out of their mouths. or just tell them to go screw themselves..

You must be VERY frustrated to tell us such shit. – Francois

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I received an email from someone who commented that…."you dont think that women do the same thing"…No i dont…..I am a man, and i know it may occur once in a bue moon…but men are doing this every race….it can not be defended…it is inappropriate behavior.

I live in San Francisco, and think it would be poetic justice to put some of these guys in their tri-singlets and have them walk thru the Castro district (a predominantly gay part of town). I think those guys would have a new appreciation for how those women feel . . . Ron ‘Alan Alda is just too damn macho’ Gilcreast

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I received an email from someone who commented that…."you dont think that women do the same thing"…No i dont…..I am a man, and i know it may occur once in a bue moon…but men are doing this every race….it can not be defended…it is inappropriate behavior.

Then you haven’t met the female lifeguards at our local Y.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -wow, who is as frustrated as to say such bullshit? I’ve got a lot of testosterone in my body, at least I hope, and I’m more proud of it than ashamed… I am a very happy engaged man, with a-bso-lu-te-ly no frustration on "that" matter, I am the luckiest guy in the world with this lady. Yet, that does not prevent me from giving a compliment to a lady if she looks nice in her outfit. Ladies tend to look even prettier in outfits, that’s a fact. What is wrong in giving them a nice compliment? You’ll ask: "yes, but if you’re not interested, what’s the point in giving a compliment?". You are right, there is NO point, just you are pleased by seeing the other one, and you tell her because if she is "normal", she will appreciate the compliment, and that simply makes you happy (for no reason). And that’s ALL. No dirty thoughts. Why, every time you say sthg nice to somebody else, it is that you expect sthg in return??? When a girl tells me I look good in MY outfit, I don’t think she wants my body so bad, I appreciate the compliment. I just think: "Cool, I look good in my outfit". If some triathlete women are offended by such remarks, they – maybe – need to get a normal life, where it’s normal to enjoy receiving a compliment. (yet, ok, not all the guys are clean-minded) Except for a few perverts, those doing these compliments just tried to say sthg nice.

Uh-huh. So, if a woman doesn’t appreciate your comments, then it’s *her* problem ‘cuz she’s not ‘normal’, right? She doesn’t have any right to be offended by *your* comments, because *you* wouldn’t be offended if a woman complimented you on your body. *Maybe* (and this is a stretch for me to admit, ‘cuz I tend to disagree strongly) it’s okay to make a comment to a woman that you don’t know about her body. It strikes me as invasive and boorish, but I’ll concede that that’s my opinion and that I could be wrong. *But*, if a woman doesn’t appreciate your comment, that doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with *her*. For your fiancee’s sake, evolve. Ron ’struggling mightily to restrain from flaming’ Gilcreast

Response:

these are probably the males with too much testosterone in their bodies..

wow, who is as frustrated as to saying such bullshit? I’ve got a lot of testosterone in my body, at least I hope, and I’m more proud of it than ashamed… I am a very happy engaged man, with a-bso-lu-te-ly no frustration on "that" matter, I am the luckiest guy in the world with this lady. Yet, that does not prevent me from giving a compliment to a lady if she looks nice in her outfit. Ladies tend to look even prettier in outfits, that’s a fact. What is wrong in giving them a nice compliment? You’ll ask: "yes, but if you’re not interested, what’s the point in giving a compliment?". You are right, there is NO point, just you are pleased by seeing the other one, and you tell her because if she is "normal", she will appreciate the compliment, and that simply makes you happy (for no reason). And that’s ALL. No dirty thoughts. Why, every time you say sthg nice to somebody else, it is that you expect sthg in return??? When a girl tells me I look good in MY outfit, I don’t think she wants my body so bad, I appreciate the compliment. I just think: "Cool, I look good in my outfit". If some triathlete women are offended by such remarks, they – maybe – need to get a normal life, where it’s normal to enjoy receiving a compliment. (yet, ok, not all the guys are clean-minded) Except for a few perverts, those doing these compliments just tried to say sthg nice. they are probably the same males who pass other males and make degrading comments about their equipment.

the best thing i can say is to take it as a compliment and just ignore whatever else comes out of their mouths. or just tell them to go screw themselves..

You must be VERY frustrated to tell us such shit. – Francois

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Yikes! Toss a rope into this group and immediately many go running to one end or the other, tugging like their life depends on it. Does anyone really think all males have the same intentions when they comment to a woman about her appearance? Francois, were you in a car with 3 other guys, hanging your face out the window, making weird noises at some unknown "lady?" Or did that "lady," as you refer to a woman, just walk by you in the opposite direction when you made some kind hiss or smack or semi-whistle under your breath? On the opposite side, at every race several men and women – yes, women, I am happy to say – make comments to me that simply make my day. These are true compliments. On the third side, it can be a laughing matter. I’ve sat with women friends and had a nice-looking friend come over, to whom we have said "nice butt" or some similar remark about his legs. I like the guys’ slightly uncomfortable and decidely lost look when that happens. What Ron is referring to is ugly and insulting. What Francois is referring to is just mildly nauseating – to me, anyhow. Ray P’s complaints about those wild-eyed middle-aged women in cars, drooling and yelping about his finer points, strikes me as just right. Your comments, Francois, about other men’s frustration and your high levels of testosterone, would sound immature even coming from the youngest readers of this ng. Also, you ran out of language to describe your thoughts and resorted to words like "shit," always a sign of a weak argument. Ruth Kazez

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<snip It’s not the same as some couch potato driving down the street whistling at you. I think triathletes can appreciate the amount of work it takes to get into good shape and am definitely NOT offended if a fellow triathlete makes a remark like "nice butt" or whistles at me! I’d probably laugh and throw a similar comment right back at them (assuming they were in good shape!) Sometimes people take these things a bit too seriously.

<snip It’s nice to know that some ladies can take it in stride, even appreciate it, not that they should have to, though. Admission: I often think compliments to ladies which I do not voice, sometimes they are strictly a detached anatomical appreciation, realizing what a fine purposeful physique or feature someone may have, but other times I find some randiness creeping up on me as well, no apology for that – it’s simply biological, what can I do? Keep my mouth shut is one option. I used to be really bad, a real wolf, but had the shoe put on the other foot (unwanted sexual attention) and that turned me around in a day. Besides wolves and wolvettes can get burned. My cousin, when she was an extremely attractive young lady, used to cat call at men, turning the tables. One day she drove up the street, hooting and cat-calling at some runner… who stopped at our drive way, being it was my Dad. I can’t imagine the embarrassment, though I know my Dad ate it up. A bit wrong, I think, for my Dad to have enjoyed it that much… Eric Pederson "Hey, LOOKING GOOD there! Nice Sig line, baby!!!"

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Ah, yes. Cultural differences. I believe what you described is "normal" in Italy, too. Of course, we Americans have put our feet in our mouths without knowing it, too. The "fanny" pack thread is one example. It was a good leaning experience noted by our friends across the pond.

Keep in mind that almost anything is the norm somewhere. That doesn’t necessarily make it OK. There are still aboriginal cultures in the world that would find Jeffery Dahmer’s culinary practices acceptable. Just food for thought (and a bad pun, to boot.)

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after talking to others last night about that topic, I realized I must apologize. Americans get offended for attitudes that are totally normal and common in France. For whatever reason. Anyway. Sorry

Ah, yes. Cultural differences. I believe what you described is "normal" in Italy, too. Of course, we Americans have put our feet in our mouths without knowing it, too. The "fanny" pack thread is one example. It was a good leaning experience noted by our friends across the pond. I’ll bet I learn a lot more about cultural differences next week when I attend a Multi-Cultural Awareness Workshop that my employer has provided for my benefit. David / FEY2K (remove spaces) at att dot net

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Just the fact this "gentleman" never once uses the word "woman" and instead uses "lady" and "girl" tells a lot about what decade he’s stuck in.

No, it just says that his translation from French needs some friendly direction. David "when will the pre-season flamefests end?" Wuth / FEY2K (remove spaces) at att dot net

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after talking to others last night about that topic, I realized I must apologize. Americans get offended for attitudes that are totally normal and common in France. For whatever reason. Anyway. Sorry

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All four women(all nice looking) indicated that it happens at most races……things like "nice butt", "wow you look good in that outfit", and worse.

Worse? I’d love to hear either of these comments. We work hard to get our bodies in shape for tris and it’s nice to know that others think you look good. It’s not the same as some couch potato driving down the street whistling at you. I think triathletes can appreciate the amount of work it takes to get into good shape and am definitely NOT offended if a fellow triathlete makes a remark like "nice butt" or whistles at me! I’d probably laugh and throw a similar comment right back at them (assuming they were in good shape!) Sometimes people take these things a bit too seriously. I’m reminded of one of the funniest things that has happened to me as an athlete. I was running down a street that was having some repairs. Wasn’t wearing anything particularly sexy – long baggy t-shirt and black lycra tights. Some guy in a pick-up truck happened to see me and started staring at me as he drove into the barrier marking the road repair! It was even funnier since there were some roofers working on nearby house who saw the whole thing happen. Totally cracked me up and made my day! -hug

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I run at lunch time in a small NE Wisconsin city and frequently get waves, yells, cat calls, and horn honking from the local high school girls that are driving around at lunch. Personnally, at 50 years old, I enjoy the hell out of it! Make me run a little faster and puts asmile on my face. But on the other hand, I would never make a comment to a woman I didn’t know or yell at one out the window of a car. Jim"was that a cat call, or where they asking if I needed CPR"Driscoll

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wow, who is as frustrated as to say such bullshit? I’ve got a lot of testosterone in my body, at least I hope, and I’m more proud of it than ashamed… I am a very happy engaged man, with a-bso-lu-te-ly no frustration on "that" matter, I am the luckiest guy in the world with this lady. Yet, that does not prevent me from giving a compliment to a lady if she looks nice in her outfit. Ladies tend to look even prettier in outfits, that’s a fact. What is wrong in giving them a nice compliment? You’ll ask: "yes, but if you’re not interested, what’s the point in giving a compliment?". You are right, there is NO point, just you are pleased by seeing the other one, and you tell her because if she is "normal", she will appreciate the compliment, and that simply makes you happy (for no reason). And that’s ALL. No dirty thoughts. Why, every time you say sthg nice to somebody else, it is that you expect sthg in return??? When a girl tells me I look good in MY outfit, I don’t think she wants my body so bad, I appreciate the compliment. I just think: "Cool, I look good in my outfit". If some triathlete women are offended by such remarks, they – maybe – need to get a normal life, where it’s normal to enjoy receiving a compliment. (yet, ok, not all the guys are clean-minded) Except for a few perverts, those doing these compliments just tried to say sthg nice. You must be VERY frustrated to tell us such shit. – Francois

Just the fact this "gentleman" never once uses the word "woman" and instead uses "lady" and "girl" tells a lot about what decade he’s stuck in. His fiancee has my sympathy. I’ll bet he still has a double-knit leisure suit and those big gold chains! Marty

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Some things are best left to quiet, inconspicuous appreciation… And now, back to the merits of wrap-around shades.

…which, especially if mirrored, enhance the inconspicuous nature of said appreciation. (nudge, nudge. wink, wink, say no more, say no more)

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The original post was my cmment after talking to a few close female friends at the ennd of St.A’s…….ther were incidences for all of them at that races and it was a bit offensive…..we got into a discussion about it and this seemed to that give a 40+ year old man thhe right to say "nice ass" to a 17 year old girl as in one instance. The the rest of the post was to ask why must this happen……personally when im racing im not really even paying attention to anyone but guys in my AG. I just think sexual comments should be left in bars…….and francois you need to settle down with you testosterone. We As a side bar…..I think a "looking good" is a fine comment…..but sexual things are too far. Trust me when i see a 50+ AG female that looks thirty…im thinking it….but as was posted early….somethings are better left as thoughts, not words.

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Some things are best left to quiet, inconspicuous appreciation… And now, back to the merits of wrap-around shades. — Mark (Oh no!… not another "Oaklies" thread!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yikes! Toss a rope into this group and immediately many go running to one end or the other, tugging like their life depends on it. Does anyone really think all males have the same intentions when they comment to a woman about her appearance? Francois, were you in a car with 3 other guys, hanging your face out the window, making weird noises at some unknown "lady?" Or did that "lady," as you refer to a woman, just walk by you in the opposite direction when you made some kind hiss or smack or semi-whistle under your breath? On the opposite side, at every race several men and women – yes, women, I am happy to say – make comments to me that simply make my day. These are true compliments. On the third side, it can be a laughing matter. I’ve sat with women friends and had a nice-looking friend come over, to whom we have said "nice butt" or some similar remark about his legs. I like the guys’ slightly uncomfortable and decidely lost look when that happens. What Ron is referring to is ugly and insulting. What Francois is referring to is just mildly nauseating – to me, anyhow. Ray P’s complaints about those wild-eyed middle-aged women in cars, drooling and yelping about his finer points, strikes me as just right. Your comments, Francois, about other men’s frustration and your high levels of testerone, would sound immature even coming from the youngest readers of this ng. Also, you ran out of language to describe your thoughts and resorted to words like "shit," always a sign of a weak argument. Ruth Kazez

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I missed the original post but, If we are taking a vote here, there are a few of us who do appreciate someone saying something nice as long as it does not evolve into something ugly. I return a polite smile. I am a bit shy and do not usually complement a guy on his attractiveness, as much as I would like to. AG

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Francois, I think when you compliment a woman in a skimpy tri-suit, you’ll get one of two reactions: 1) Hey, he gave me a compliment. I look hot and this proves it. I feel great! 2) Oh my God. He was LOOKING at me and my fat (butt, stomach, whatever body part happens to be the object of concern). Oh God, I feel awful! Unfortunately, unless you know the woman, you probably can’t predict whether she will have reaction 1 or reaction 2… and you can’t always tell by looking who likes her body (and will appreciate your compliment) and who doesn’t. (I know I can’t.) So I’d like to suggest that you hold off on the verbal appreciation unless you know the woman and know she’ll appreciate the compliment– otherwise you may not get the reaction you’re hoping for. Gail "but you can ALWAYS say nice things about the way I passed you in the swim!" D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – in her outfit. Ladies tend to look even prettier in outfits, that’s a fact. What is wrong in giving them a nice compliment? You’ll ask: "yes, but if you’re not interested, what’s the point in giving a compliment?". You are right, there is NO point, just you are pleased by seeing the other one, and you tell her because if she is "normal", she will appreciate the compliment, and that simply makes you happy (for no reason). And that’s ALL. No dirty thoughts. Why, every time you say sthg nice to somebody else, it is that you expect sthg in return??? When a girl tells me I look good in MY outfit, I don’t think she wants my body so bad, I appreciate the compliment. I just think: "Cool, I look good in my outfit". If some triathlete women are offended by such remarks, they – maybe – need to get a normal life, where it’s normal to enjoy receiving a compliment. (yet, ok, not all the guys are clean-minded) Except for a few perverts, those doing these compliments just tried to say sthg nice.

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Question:

Hi! I’m 29 years old ex water polo player and interested about triathlon. So, how to start? (books, heart rate monitors, programs, etc…) I have 9 months to prepare. Appreciating your help, Ed

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Hi! I’m 29 years old ex water polo player and interested about triathlon. So, how to start? (books, heart rate monitors, programs, etc…)

Ed, I’d check out the local library and used book store for triathlon books to read while you’re not in front of the computer. When you are in front of the computer check out: http://www.hulaman.com/tritips.html And keep reading rst — Chris Davis "Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one’s courage." Anais Nin http://www.hulaman.com/

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Question:

Hi all. I am new to SD and was wondering if someone would be so nice as to clue me in on the tri-scene here. I am looking for all the usual stuff: tri clubs, bike clubs, running clubs, and master’s swim work outs. Please e-mail any info you are willing to share. Thanks in advance.

The triathlon club of San Diego has a web site at http://sd.znet.com/~triclub It’s a great club and a great place to start looking for whatever else you need. Steve Fredericks Oceanside, CA

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SD Bike Club for rides http://www.sdbc.org/ My web page for links to: SD Tri Club, La Jolla cove water temp and Competitor Mag for links to masters programs http://home.san.rr.com/ewphome/ewphome/Tripage.htm

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Welcome to Insane Diego! Can’t be here without a trip to the De Soto Sport factory outlet! 5262 Eastgate Mall (just off Miramar road) call for directions 619 453 6672. When you come in ask for me and I will come down and chat with you (my favorite part of having this business) and give you some guidance regarding where to go for the Tri scene! Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

Response:

Hi all. I am new to SD and was wondering if someone would be so nice as to clue me in on the tri-scene here. I am looking for all the usual stuff: tri clubs, bike clubs, running clubs, and master’s swim work outs. Please e-mail any info you are willing to share. Thanks in advance.

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Question:

I can not find Tinley clothing in the Central Valley of California. Anyone know if it’s still made and where I can find some. I have raced in Tinley’s for IM and many other races and have been very satisfied. — TriJay Jay’s World Web Page http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/2336/index.htm

Response:

Jay, Reebok bought Tinley a few years ago, but shut them down last year along with AVIA’s clothing lines. I would be surprised if you could find Tinley’s anywhere other than the left oversee. I know this is true because both Tinley and AVIA were Team Psycho sponsors two years ago, but when we called to discuss last years sponsorship there was one person left to answer phones until they closed up shop completely. Psycho Fred – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can not find Tinley clothing in the Central Valley of California. Anyone know if it’s still made and where I can find some. I have raced in Tinley’s for IM and many other races and have been very satisfied. — TriJay Jay’s World Web Page http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/2336/index.htm

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I guess that answers that. Thanks — TriJay Jay’s World Web Page http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/2336/index.htm

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[This followup was posted to rec.sport.triathlon and a copy was sent to the cited author.] I can not find Tinley clothing in the Central Valley of California. Anyone know if it’s still made and where I can find some. I have raced in Tinley’s for IM and many other races and have been very satisfied.

I see Tinley Jerseys, and bike shorts on sale in the Seattle area at the discount sports shops (here its ‘Big 5 Sports). We have a big sale in May each year where a local retailer does a giant sale on bikes and bike gear at the local convention center for a weekend. At that I scored 2 white Tinley jerseys for $5 and a pair of Tinley shorts (best pad, but cut too low on top) for $15, and a long sleeve thermal jersey for $20. Rob — Ironman Canada ???? Rob Blomquist aka TriDog Seattle, WA http://www.accessone.com/~robb

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Question:

Check out the Waterproof Coach for some hints on increasing stroke efficiency! Check out the web site at: www.sandglass.com/waterproofcoach Tom Denes

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When doing the 100’s (is that 1:50’s in a 25 yard pool or 50 meter pool?) Try to do a descending series…..getting faster with each 100. Concentrate on good form. Another good set: 400 straight and strong, concentrate on form and then follow it with 4×100 with a 5 sec increase in pace. Good rest. Do that 2 times.

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Your posting from a while back about going slower with more effort sounded like it came right from my training diary. I have had the exact same problem and was really getting frustrated. I started doing multisport less than two years ago with NO swimming background. While I’ve improved a hell of a lot in the water, I’m still pretty damn slow compared to the real swimmers. But, within the past few weeks, I’ve seen the greatest improvements since I started swim workouts. What I finally discovered is that FORM IS EVERYTHING. I know that you hear this all the time, but I’ve finally started to buy into it. I did a workout not too long ago where I swam a 1500 hard. I really made an effort to bust it hard to see where I was fitness-wise at this point in the pre-season. My splits all along the way were poor and when I finished, my time was awful–and I was spent. The time actually was worse than an easy 1500 that I swam a week earlier. Since then, I’ve made a total commitment to form. In both my long sessions (2000-2500 yds) and in my reps (25,50,100’s), I stay as smooth as possible, even to the point of exagerating good form. I may be losing a little on the conditioning side, because I don’t get near my AT swimming like this, but I’ve seen my swim times drop like a rock over the past two weeks. My advice is to maybe back off on the intervals for a little while and make a commitment to good form. It seems to be working for me. Good luck, Dave Springfield, VA

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Swim smarter, not harder. Drop so much intensity work and work on swimming form. Get a good book on swimming and drill, drill, drill. If your swimming 1:50 for a hundred you have alot of room for improvement. All your intervals are doing is reinforcing bad stroke technique, actually making it worse. Kind of like golf, if you have a bad swing your only going to lower your score so much, what you need is a new swing. On running I think there is considerable more debate on good form. But I believe some basics are: don’t overstride, don’t bounce up and down, look forward not down, keep your arms down and relaxed, don’t lean forward, stand upright. Take a look at Michael Johnson when he won the 200 and 400 in the Olympics. He was definitely motoring. Although, I believe some people don’t like his form. Steve

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To increase your speed you need to maintain that "feel" for the water. Try a few sets of these: 5 sets: 100 hard with tennis balls in your hands or making fists followed by 100 smooth and easy with your regular hand position that second hundred will make your hands feel as if you are pulling with paddles. I’ve swam up to 1000yds with tennis balls or fists and it’s the best for improving "feel" and arm turnover. my .02

Response:

As far as the swimming question goes, somebody asked a question about keeping form while speeding up. The only way to learn how to do this is to practice, and thenm practice, and then practice some more. I WOULD ADVISE DOING SOME MIDDLE DISTANCE WORK, I.E. 200-300 YARD INTERVALS NOT AT SPRINT PACE, BUT CERTAINLY FASTER THAN YOUR pace that you hold for distance wprk. You should try to keep the same form as your distance work, but move your arms not necessarily faster, but STRONGER through the water. Feeling stronger, what I mean by this is being able to feel the water better, to pull harder but not out of control like when you "thrash" through the water on a sprint. Form comes from years of training, and having a cooach or somebody whgo knows look at your stroke and point out the areas you need to improve. I hope this helps. Tony — Anthony Edward Berwald Georgia Institute of Technology

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In article <tricia- OK, here it is: Can someone please explain to me, concisely, what constitutes good running form? Conversely, what constitutes bad running form? As a really bad runner myself, I’d like to see if some style pointers might be of any help. I know, I know, I should read Galloway. But in the meantime, can someone take pity on this helpless pseudo-runner and provide some basic answers?

I have a problem where my right foot doesn’t run straight. I will occasionally kick my left ankle with my right foot. if I do it just right, I catch it with the edge of my running shoe and actually cut my ankle and it bleeds for a good long time. needless to say, I would like to know what constitutes good running form because I don’t have it either. On another note, just swam 2400 meters at lunch, including a set of 12 100’s at race pace with 10 seconds rest in between—OUCH! Not only did the workout itself hurt, but realizing just how slow I am didn’t feel so good either. I averaged 1:50 per hundred. Sheesh, doesn’t it ever get any easier? *sigh*

I thought I was doing GREAT swimming 1:50’s. I think you complain too much. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone else experience this problem: I actually seem to get slower when I try to up my intensity in the pool. I seem to waste a lot of energy thrashing. I’m actually faster at a lower intensity because I control my stroke more precisely and remain smoother. So how on earth can I ever go faster if my form goes all to hell when I start pushing the pace? Don’t mind me, just random musings flashing through my chlorinated head as I contemplate my aching shoulders at 3:30 pm…. Tri-Baby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, here it is: Can someone please explain to me, concisely, what constitutes good running form? Conversely, what constitutes bad running form? Tri-Baby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie

Do not look at the ground. Keep your head up. Looking down rotates the weight forward and dramatically shortens your stride. Dalton — | Life is too short | __o | _/_ | | to just watch!!! | _`<,_ o | _/\ //_ | |Dalton Cote | ___o_ _ | __ __< | |Calgary , Canada | ~~~~~~ / | || | |http://www.ucalgary.ca/~djcote | IRONMAN 97 |

Response:

OK, here it is: Can someone please explain to me, concisely, what constitutes good running form? Conversely, what constitutes bad running form? As a really bad runner myself, I’d like to see if some style pointers might be of any help. I know, I know, I should read Galloway. But in the meantime, can someone take pity on this helpless pseudo-runner and provide some basic answers?

I read the following pointer somewhere. It helps me on long runs, when very tired, and form starts to sag. To help run more erect and actually feel a bit energized– imagine you are wearing a hat, but it is two inches above your head rather than on it. As you run, try to elevate yourself up into the hat. Sounds weird. But it seems to help. Good luck. Steve G.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On another note, just swam 2400 meters at lunch, including a set of 12 100’s at race pace with 10 seconds rest in between—OUCH! Not only did the workout itself hurt, but realizing just how slow I am didn’t feel so good either. I averaged 1:50 per hundred. Sheesh, doesn’t it ever get any easier? *sigh* Anyone else experience this problem: I actually seem to get slower when I try to up my intensity in the pool. I seem to waste a lot of energy thrashing. I’m actually faster at a lower intensity because I control my stroke more precisely and remain smoother. So how on earth can I ever go faster if my form goes all to hell when I start pushing the pace? I’m in the same boat. I just started w/ a Master’s group and the workouts are killin’ me but I don’t think I’m a better swimmer in terms of form. Most of our workouts are short intervals (50, 75, 100s) at a high rate. I’m doing the same thrashing which definitely helps me aerobically since I’m working way harder than I need to be but my stroke is not getting better–it’s probably getting worse since I’m concentrating on keeping up the pace ( and oh, yeah, breathing every once and a while!). I’ve changed my routine to swimming w/ the group once a week doing the short stuff at a high intensity and then swimming on my own the rest of the time doing longer intervals (500-750 yds) where I can concentrate solely on my form.

As a Master’s coach, I think this is a good idea. Unless your Master’s group is all triathletes! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A favorite is 250 yd. repeats which are done with alternating fast/slow yardages which allow me to concentrate again on form and then speed up for a short time to test out the technique at race pace and then slow back down to concentrate on form again. There are numerous combinations but here’s the one I’ve been doing lately: whatever you feel like x 250 yds 75 hard 50 recover 100 hard 25 recover I give myself about 15s rest inbetween Let me know is you come across any good info.

I’ve noted this before on RST, but think for triathletes who are beginning to intermediate swimmers, that you need to concentrate getting in the long aerobic yardage with good form. The shortest swim distance for triathlon is 825 yds, which is considered middle to long distance for dedicated competitive swimmers. Their workouts are strictly long set yardage (e.g. 4×1000, 8×800, long pyramids, etc.). Sprints will only "sharpen" you for finishes in the water and get you used to an AT level heart rate in the water, but under no circumstances are supposed to swimming a half mile or longer in balls-to-th-wall anaerobic mode when you’ve got to come out of the water & cycle & run to boot. So swim your long yardage sets, and work on your form in the water…IMHO, that’s what’ll maximize your swim portion at race time. One of the things you can do to break up the monotony of long yards is pyramid: 1 length hard (high aerobic, say 70-75% of max HR)-1 length easy, 2 lengths hard-1 length easy (e.g. 1-1,2-1,3-1,4-1,5-1,4-1,3-1,2-1, 1-1 which is 850 yards). 3 x 850 of these puppies will do you quite well as a major set of your workout.

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Scientific studies have shown that the very best (i.e. Olympic) swimmers are, at most, 9% efficient. For them, 90 calories of every 100 go toward overcoming resistance and creating turbulence. Less accomplished athletes (i.e. the rest of us) are usually in the 1% to 4% efficiency area — less that 1/20th of any additional energy expended shows up as forward motion. (Runner Triathlete News, Sept. ‘95) Obviously, then, the greatest opportunity for improvement is in reducing resistance (becoming a more efficient swimmer) rather than increasing energy output (becoming stronger). If you take more than 20 strokes per length in a 25 yard pool, you should be putting all of your time into efficiency training rather than conditioning. Lance Phegley Editor Runner Triathlete News – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hug) writes: OK, here it is: Can someone please explain to me, concisely, what constitutes good running form? Conversely, what constitutes bad running form? Not sure, but I think I’ve mastered it… Anyone else experience this problem: I actually seem to get slower when I try to up my intensity in the pool. I seem to waste a lot of energy thrashing. I’m actually faster at a lower intensity because I control my stroke more precisely and remain smoother. So how on earth can I ever go faster if my form goes all to hell when I start pushing the pace? Very common problem and probably the main reason I am not a sprinter! Moving your arms real fast & kicking real hard does not = fast swimming! One of the great drills that has been mentioned in the past goes by several names, like swimming golf and mini-maxi. It is a set of say 6 or 8 50 yard swims. Count your strokes and get your time on the first. Then try to decrease stroke count and go faster on each one. At some point you may find that your stroke count has continued to decrease but your time has gotten worse. Try to find the best count that gives you the fastest speed (want to maximize speed). This is a good drill because you learn to swim fast without thrashing – you concentrate on a long efficient stroke. Doing this set once a week should help. Another good one is to swim 100s or 150s where the first lap is your regular stroke count, the second one is one less pull, the third is -2, the 4th lap is -3, etc. while trying to maintain a constant steady pace. -hug

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OK, here it is: Can someone please explain to me, concisely, what constitutes good running form?

[SNIP] Good running form is that which you can maintain through weeks and months of workouts without injury. Of course, this may not be fast running form. On another note, just swam 2400 meters at lunch, including a set of 12 100’s at race pace with 10 seconds rest in between—OUCH! Not only did the workout itself hurt, but realizing just how slow I am didn’t feel so good either. I averaged 1:50 per hundred. Sheesh, doesn’t it ever get any easier? *sigh*

In a word, No. Even if it gets faster, it probably won’t get "easier". You get this scenario: "I’ve improved my stroke and efficiency, and now I’m doing 1:40 100s. Now, if I just put out a bit more effort, I can probably drop to 1:35." On the other hand, it hurts to know that you are probably expending about the same energy as the people cruising those 1:20 repeats. Life ain’t fair. On the other hand, you’re able to write much better than a lot of good runners and swimmers, so society as a whole retains a balance of talent…. [SNIP--other good stuff cut] Rick Teichler StorageTek Software Engineering (Louisville, Colorado)

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: OK, here it is: : Can someone please explain to me, concisely, what constitutes good running form? : Conversely, what constitutes bad running form? : As a really bad runner myself, I’d like to see if some style pointers : might be of any help. I know, I know, I should read Galloway. But in the : meantime, can someone take pity on this helpless pseudo-runner and provide : some basic answers? Hi Tri-baby, Well, here’s my $0.02 worth on the subject of running form. When I started running seven years ago to try to get into shape, I could not get past running 10 miles a week without getting terrible shin splints. My PR for 10k was 59 minutes, set when I was 18, and I could not get close to it at the age of 27. After one 10k for the Hospital in my neighborhood, there was an injury checkover. They had me run up and down the hallway a few times and pronouced that I had bad form. When I ran back then, I would raise up my heel at the end of the stride, and then pull it forward. Also, I landed at the beginning of the stride with my leg straight,knee almost locked. They retrained me to run starting with my knee being bent at the beginning of the stride. This moved alot of the impact from skeletal to muscular structure. They also changed it so that at the end of the stride, I brought my foot forward and up, using the quads, as if I was steping over a log. That’s really a simplified version of what they did, along with a very specific strength/cardiovascular weight lifting routine. I have since droped my 10k pr to 49:40, 5k to 22:30, and have run 35 miles a week. If you want a review of your form, find a good coach, or a Sports Doctor to give you some help. — Tom Roehr "The Javanator"

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OK, here it is: Can someone please explain to me, concisely, what constitutes good running form? Conversely, what constitutes bad running form?

Not sure, but I think I’ve mastered it… Anyone else experience this problem: I actually seem to get slower when I try to up my intensity in the pool. I seem to waste a lot of energy thrashing. I’m actually faster at a lower intensity because I control my stroke more precisely and remain smoother. So how on earth can I ever go faster if my form goes all to hell when I start pushing the pace?

Very common problem and probably the main reason I am not a sprinter! Moving your arms real fast & kicking real hard does not = fast swimming! One of the great drills that has been mentioned in the past goes by several names, like swimming golf and mini-maxi. It is a set of say 6 or 8 50 yard swims. Count your strokes and get your time on the first. Then try to decrease stroke count and go faster on each one. At some point you may find that your stroke count has continued to decrease but your time has gotten worse. Try to find the best count that gives you the fastest speed (want to maximize speed). This is a good drill because you learn to swim fast without thrashing – you concentrate on a long efficient stroke. Doing this set once a week should help. Another good one is to swim 100s or 150s where the first lap is your regular stroke count, the second one is one less pull, the third is -2, the 4th lap is -3, etc. while trying to maintain a constant steady pace. -hug

Response:

OK, here it is: Can someone please explain to me, concisely, what constitutes good running form? Conversely, what constitutes bad running form? As a really bad runner myself, I’d like to see if some style pointers might be of any help. I know, I know, I should read Galloway. But in the meantime, can someone take pity on this helpless pseudo-runner and provide some basic answers? On another note, just swam 2400 meters at lunch, including a set of 12 100’s at race pace with 10 seconds rest in between—OUCH! Not only did the workout itself hurt, but realizing just how slow I am didn’t feel so good either. I averaged 1:50 per hundred. Sheesh, doesn’t it ever get any easier? *sigh* Anyone else experience this problem: I actually seem to get slower when I try to up my intensity in the pool. I seem to waste a lot of energy thrashing. I’m actually faster at a lower intensity because I control my stroke more precisely and remain smoother. So how on earth can I ever go faster if my form goes all to hell when I start pushing the pace? Don’t mind me, just random musings flashing through my chlorinated head as I contemplate my aching shoulders at 3:30 pm…. Tri-Baby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie

Response:

Conversely, what constitutes bad running form?

Body lean: there should be a slight forward lean. Straight up is *generally* not recommended. People vary as well. Mark Allen sticks his butt out a bit and leans forward. Running down hill is a good way to play with leaning. Lean on a hill and you will FLY down as gravity does its job. Foot strike: straight down -good overstriding – bad (landing on heel and taking too big of a step creates this; you are braking on each step if you overstride) Arm swing: knuckles brush hips, arms pull back evenly – good hands cross centerline – bad (creates side to side motion) Chin tucked slightly in – good (better breathing and weight distribution) Head slouched – bad (tired runner, restricts breathing, excess forward lean) Excess vertical bounce – bad (why run up and down when you want to go forward) Minimal bounce (1-2" at most) – energy pushes you forward, not up and down <swimming stuff deleted Anyone else experience this problem: I actually seem to get slower when I try to up my intensity in the pool. I seem to waste a lot of energy thrashing. I’m actually faster at a lower intensity because I control my stroke more precisely and remain smoother. So how on earth can I ever go faster if my form goes all to hell when I start pushing the pace?

You have already found your answer Tricia. Focus on the lower intensity technique BECAUSE you are going faster. Usually, when one tries to swim fast, this is the result. Your mind is telling those arms to go round and round because it thinks that is the way to more speed. In fact, we lose so much efficiency that we burn a lot more energy going slower. If you try to swim strongly and maintain smoothness, you’ll see the difference. That is, do a set of lower intensity 100s with a longer rest interval (e.g., give yourself 2:00 to do the 100 and a 30 second rest). Tell yourself that these are lower intensity intervals over and over so that you don’t thrash. Focus on pulling strongly through the water and don’t worry about having to blitz through the water. Feel the power of each stroke pushing you forward. Play around a little and see how different pulling motions affect your pace. 90% of what I do better than I did before has come about because of experimentation with technique, not training! I did this and swam a set of 100 yard repeats all UNDER 1:24, and the fastest was in the 1:16-1:18 range — a personal best for one who rarely breaks 1:30 in my own workouts! -Rolf — Call me IronMac … … I tri … … I prefer Macintosh! IMC ‘94 – 14:06:47 IMC ‘95 – 11:58:35 IMC ‘97 – 10:45:00

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am not a swim coach. I am not a particularly fast swimmer (11:30 800m). But I have been swimming a long time. Here’s my $0.02 worth: Holding form while raising tempo is difficult. Even more difficult is holding form while getting fatigued. For me, the most useful training aid to assist with these challenges is the hand paddle. You do not mention whether or not you are currently using hand paddles. If you are not using them, please consider giving them a try. In the final analysis, many feel the fastest swimmer is the one who holds the most streamlined body position. Not being of that caliber, I am unable to comment. If a thread gets started on the use of hand paddles I would enjoy commenting further on them. I, too, am working on my running legs. My coach running coach tells me that, unlike swimming, distance running form cannot be taught. Her opinion is that running style is individual and not to be messed with. Surprised? So was I! However, I respect her opinion. I will tell you one thing that my coach does not even know I do. When I am on the treadmill I face a mirror and watch to make sure my body, feet and hands are in good alignment. Other than that, I, too, am open to suggestions on running form! Karl "TriNewbie" Edmark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, here it is: Can someone please explain to me, concisely, what constitutes good running form? Conversely, what constitutes bad running form? As a really bad runner myself, I’d like to see if some style pointers might be of any help. I know, I know, I should read Galloway. But in the meantime, can someone take pity on this helpless pseudo-runner and provide some basic answers? On another note, just swam 2400 meters at lunch, including a set of 12 100’s at race pace with 10 seconds rest in between—OUCH! Not only did the workout itself hurt, but realizing just how slow I am didn’t feel so good either. I averaged 1:50 per hundred. Sheesh, doesn’t it ever get any easier? *sigh* Anyone else experience this problem: I actually seem to get slower when I try to up my intensity in the pool. I seem to waste a lot of energy thrashing. I’m actually faster at a lower intensity because I control my stroke more precisely and remain smoother. So how on earth can I ever go faster if my form goes all to hell when I start pushing the pace? Don’t mind me, just random musings flashing through my chlorinated head as I contemplate my aching shoulders at 3:30 pm…. Tri-Baby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie

Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html<head</head<BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"<p<font size=3D2 = color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"I am not a swim coach.  I am not a = particularly fast swimmer (11:30 800m).  But I have been swimming a = long time.  Here’s my $0.02 worth:<br<brHolding form while = raising tempo is difficult.  Even more difficult is holding form = while getting fatigued.  For me, the most useful training aid to = assist with these challenges is the hand paddle.  You do not = mention whether or not you are currently using hand paddles.  If = you are not using them, please consider giving them a try.<br<brIn the = final analysis, many feel the fastest swimmer is the one who holds the = most streamlined body position.  Not being of that caliber, I am = unable to comment.  <br<brIf a thread gets started on the use of = hand paddles I would enjoy commenting further on them.<br<brI, too, am = working on my running legs.  My coach running coach tells me that, = unlike swimming, distance running form cannot be taught.  Her = opinion is that running style is individual and not to be messed with. =  Surprised?  So was I!  However, I respect her opinion. =  I will tell you one thing that my coach does not even know I do. =   When I am on the treadmill I face a mirror and watch to make = sure my body, feet and hands are in good alignment.  Other than = that, I, too, am open to suggestions on running form!  <br<brKarl = color=3D"#000000"> wrote in article <… OK, here it is: = Can someone please explain to me, concisely, what constitutes good = running form? Conversely, what constitutes bad running = form? As a really bad runner myself, I’d like to see if = some style pointers might be of any help.  I know, I know, = I should read Galloway.  But in the meantime, can someone = take pity on this helpless pseudo-runner and provide some basic = answers? On another note, just swam 2400 meters at = lunch, including a set of 12 100’s at race pace with 10 seconds = rest in between—OUCH!  Not only did the workout itself = hurt, but realizing just how slow I am didn’t feel so good = either.  I averaged 1:50 per hundred.  Sheesh, doesn’t it ever = get any easier?  *sigh* Anyone else = experience this problem:  I actually seem to get slower when = I try to up my intensity in the pool.  I seem to waste a = lot of energy thrashing.  I’m actually faster at a lower = intensity because I control my stroke more precisely and remain = smoother.  So how on earth can I ever go faster if my form = goes all to hell when I start pushing the pace?   = Don’t mind me, just random musings flashing through my chlorinated head = as I contemplate my aching shoulders at 3:30 pm…. = Tri-Baby =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;_ =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;         - =    o      ’ =             -=  __o       - =    </_  `     ’ =         - =    < =         - __/ =    /o_         - = (()) (())        -  / = don’t draft." = </p </font</font</font</font</font</font</font</body</html

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On another note, just swam 2400 meters at lunch, including a set of 12 100’s at race pace with 10 seconds rest in between—OUCH! Not only did the workout itself hurt, but realizing just how slow I am didn’t feel so good either. I averaged 1:50 per hundred. Sheesh, doesn’t it ever get any easier? *sigh* Anyone else experience this problem: I actually seem to get slower when I try to up my intensity in the pool. I seem to waste a lot of energy thrashing. I’m actually faster at a lower intensity because I control my stroke more precisely and remain smoother. So how on earth can I ever go faster if my form goes all to hell when I start pushing the pace?

I’m in the same boat. I just started w/ a Master’s group and the workouts are killin’ me but I don’t think I’m a better swimmer in terms of form. Most of our workouts are short intervals (50, 75, 100s) at a high rate. I’m doing the same thrashing which definitely helps me aerobically since I’m working way harder than I need to be but my stroke is not getting better–it’s probably getting worse since I’m concentrating on keeping up the pace ( and oh, yeah, breathing every once and a while!). I’ve changed my routine to swimming w/ the group once a week doing the short stuff at a high intensity and then swimming on my own the rest of the time doing longer intervals (500-750 yds) where I can concentrate solely on my form. A favorite is 250 yd. repeats which are done with alternating fast/slow yardages which allow me to concentrate again on form and then speed up for a short time to test out the technique at race pace and then slow back down to concentrate on form again. There are numerous combinations but here’s the one I’ve been doing lately: whatever you feel like x 250 yds 75 hard 50 recover 100 hard 25 recover I give myself about 15s rest inbetween Let me know is you come across any good info. Scott Scott Herrick Control Centers Engineering Motorola, Inc. Schaumburg, IL

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Question:

Does anyone out there have any thoughts on the best (ie fastest) setup for aerobars. I’d have thought that a shallow angle of 0-15 degrees wold be best but I’ve seen some pros riding with extreme 15-30 degree angles. — Gareth Morgan www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3359 www.geocities.com/Colosseum/3359/tristuff.hml

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Does anyone out there have any thoughts on the best (ie fastest) setup for aerobars. I’d have thought that a shallow angle of 0-15 degrees wold be best but I’ve seen some pros riding with extreme 15-30 degree angles.

I seem to recall the installation insructions for my Scott Clip-Ons stating that 10-15 degrees from horizontal provided the most aerodynamic position (or so their wind tunnel testing showed). I would imagine it’s not too different for other aerobars. I think elbow position is more important, anyway (closer == better). MAP

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Does anyone out there have any thoughts on the best (ie fastest) setup for aerobars. I’d have thought that a shallow angle of 0-15 degrees wold be best but I’ve seen some pros riding with extreme 15-30 degree angles. — Gareth Morgan

I have even seen riders with their aerobars pointing downwards!. I would estimate the angle of the aerobars of the rider I saw to be 10-15 degrees downwards. (This was at a short team-tempo race in Berlin(Germany). The German rider have, as far as I remember, medals from both the olymics and worlds on the velodrome.) I have mine pointing upwards about 5-10 degrees. — Ketil Aas-Jakobsen Dr.ing student voice:+47-73.59.14.92 http://www.ktek.unit.no/ansatte/kaj/index.htm

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Does anyone out there have any thoughts on the best (ie fastest) setup for aerobars. I’d have thought that a shallow angle of 0-15 degrees wold be best but I’ve seen some pros riding with extreme 15-30 degree angles.

The theory behind the high-hand position is that it deflects the airflow away from the chest, while low hands make a big pocket that traps the airflow. That at least was the theory when I first raised the tips of my Scott-DH’s (in 1988) — I originally got the idea while watching Peter Mueller on the Laberhorn! — | James Tappin, | School of Physics & Space Research | O__ | | Ph: 0121-414-6462. Fax: 0121-414-3722 | |

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I don’t think the angle of the bars is that important. I think the angle of the forearms is more important. I have my bars set almost exactly level. Depending on what bar you have, and the relationship between armrest and where you grip the bars. That determines what angle the bars should be at. I believe that QRmans earlier statement that the angles of the body joints (hip, shoulder, and elbow) should all be approximately right angles is bang on. Since most riders have some rise between their hip and shoulder, this means that the elbow will be slightly in front of the shoulder joint. With the 90 degree bend at the elbow, this means that the forearms will point slightly skyward, by 5-15 degrees say. Set the aero bars so the forearms maintain this angle. With all this said, I think that comfort is a surprisingly important thing. I don’t spend alot of time trying to get teh most perfect aero position. I spend time getting the most aero position I can tolerate. As a note. Aero efficiency doesn’t matter squat. Neither does power output. No-one cares how much you or your bike weighs. All we measure is how fast one goes! JUST DO WHATEVER MAKES YOU FAST. TriDork

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I have even seen riders with their aerobars pointing downwards!. I would estimate the angle of the aerobars of the rider I saw to be 10-15 degrees downwards. (This was at a short team-tempo race in Berlin(Germany). The German rider have, as far as I remember, medals from both the olymics and worlds on the velodrome.)

Ah, they must have forgotten to tighten there bars, too. I just did a race this weekend where my bars bounced around from -15 to 15 degrees. Every bump in the road placed me in a new and interesting position. But I did get a great upper body workout yanking them back up every 5 minutes ; ) Joe Jankovsky

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I’ve got mine kinda flat. Anything more upwards and my foremans start to hurt.

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I’ve got mine kinda flat. Anything more upwards and my foremans start to hurt.

On his video tape of "Wind Tunnel Secrets," (or a title something like that) john Cobb recommends a flat aero bar angle for all but the flatest of races; if the TT is very flat he suggests that the bar can be angle somewhat upward.

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On his video tape of "Wind Tunnel Secrets," (or a title something like that) john Cobb recommends a flat aero bar angle for all but the flatest of races; if the TT is very flat he suggests that the bar can be angle somewhat upward.

From the Inside Triathlon page: Ray Browning, past winner of Ironman races in Japan, New Zealand and Canada notes (with tongue firmly placed in cheek) that the best way to improve your bike split at the Ironman is to do your turn around well before Hawi. Browning added that John Cobb could probably come up with a chart outlining the potential time savings depending on just where you make the turn. For those who want to do the race according to the rules, Browning does have a serious suggestion or two. Browning strongly recommends picking apparel that is comfortable, tight-fitting, and breathable. Comfortable clothes can keep you in an aerodynamic position instead of forcing you to squirm around on the bike as you try to find a more comfortable position.

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I read an article about this recently and it gave two examples of aerobar positioning – Chris Boardman and Miguel Indurain. Boardman is very flat while Indurain is more upright. I think the main thread of the article is that you can ride fast no matter what the angle (within reason) and that comfort should be a major factor. I used to have mine very horizontal (no idea what angle) but had a lot of trouble running of the bike, got a pair of bio arms which I have facing a bit more upright and am feeling a lot better on the run. My advice is to go for comfort as well as aero. Paul Bronson Queensland, Australia.

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I read an article about this recently and it gave two examples of aerobar positioning – Chris Boardman and Miguel Indurain. Boardman is very flat while Indurain is more upright. I think the main thread of the article is that you can ride fast no matter what the angle (within reason) and that comfort should be a major factor.

In the video, Codd "groups" riders into two catagories, "A" & "B" riders. The A riders are those, mostly pros according to Cobb, who can have a sharp torso/hip angle and a very flat back. The "B" riders, mostly us groupers, have less of an extreme torso/hip angle than the A’s and a more rounded back. He says that the "B" riders can get almost as good aerodynamics as the A’s through proper bike fit and rotating the pelvis forward as much as possible; i.e., as much as is comfortable. He also states that comfort is a big factor in being able to maintain a "high" speed over long distances. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

For those of you who are wondering how many years down the road it will be before we finally get current on our product pages, all the wetsuit pages, triathlon bike pages, and parts packages pages are finished. This includes prices, gifs of the bikes, so on and so forth. I felt I needed to do this soon, as all the Special Editions and Kilos, and parts packages, get sent out to our dealers this week and next. If you’ve been to our website at all recently, realize that you’ll have to reload the pages, depending on which version of Netscape you’re using (my 2.0 beta 4, or whatever it is, caches everything, and I have to constantly reload or I miss new pages). You still might have trouble, it seems to me Netscape 2.0 is bug city. So "reload" if you think you’re not getting the current page. OBTW, one of my retailers said that somewhere on this newsgroup someone had written that the new Kilo was considerably heavier than the more expensive Kilo Private Reserve. I didn’t read that myself, but in case I or anyone else wrote something like that, I weighed them today, and the Kilo is 2 ounces heavier than the Kilo PR, so they are awfully close in weight. I think the difference is in the seat tube, the Kilo has a slightly thicker seat tube to support its front derailleur braze-on (the Kilo PR has a braze-on which goes on more laboriously, but allows us to use a slightly lighter tube). Wow, I think that’s it. Oh yeah, the Hutchinson 23mm 26" clincher tires are in stock, so your dealer has no excuse for not having them. http://www.webcom.com/rooworld/index.html One more thing. You used to need a ~ before the rooworld. Now you don’t. And, having the ~ can sometimes screw up your viewing of our website, i.e., you get the source document coming up instead of the page the way its supposed to be viewed. So I’d be obliged if you’d change your bookmark. QRman

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Hi! My name is Janet Gates and I work at WVU in Morgantown, WV. I am very interested in the Special Edition QR. I hade my locat bike shop call the main factory and the person said that they were sold out, could go on a waiting list but gave no estimate of time it would take, and was very "smart" with the bike shop as far as answering questions about the bike. Could you please help me locate a QR special edition. I have tried calling different dealers that are advertised in all the magazines, but no has been able to help. I really wanted to go to a QR bike, I really like your products. I have used a QR weatsuit for years and love it. I really appreciate all your help. Thanks, Janet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For those of you who are wondering how many years down the road it will be before we finally get current on our product pages, all the wetsuit pages, triathlon bike pages, and parts packages pages are finished. This includes prices, gifs of the bikes, so on and so forth. I felt I needed to do this soon, as all the Special Editions and Kilos, and parts packages, get sent out to our dealers this week and next. If you’ve been to our website at all recently, realize that you’ll have to reload the pages, depending on which version of Netscape you’re using (my 2.0 beta 4, or whatever it is, caches everything, and I have to constantly reload or I miss new pages). You still might have trouble, it seems to me Netscape 2.0 is bug city. So "reload" if you think you’re not getting the current page. OBTW, one of my retailers said that somewhere on this newsgroup someone had written that the new Kilo was considerably heavier than the more expensive Kilo Private Reserve. I didn’t read that myself, but in case I or anyone else wrote something like that, I weighed them today, and the Kilo is 2 ounces heavier than the Kilo PR, so they are awfully close in weight. I think the difference is in the seat tube, the Kilo has a slightly thicker seat tube to support its front derailleur braze-on (the Kilo PR has a braze-on which goes on more laboriously, but allows us to use a slightly lighter tube). Wow, I think that’s it. Oh yeah, the Hutchinson 23mm 26" clincher tires are in stock, so your dealer has no excuse for not having them. http://www.webcom.com/rooworld/index.html One more thing. You used to need a ~ before the rooworld. Now you don’t. And, having the ~ can sometimes screw up your viewing of our website, i.e., you get the source document coming up instead of the page the way its supposed to be viewed. So I’d be obliged if you’d change your bookmark. QRman

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Hi Janet! We have a large assortment of frames sizes in the new Special Edition that have just come into stock. We would love to talk to you if you will call us at 800 FLY BIKE. Our prices are probably the best out there right now. We have the parts to build you a QR SE complete from $1195 up to whatever you’ d like to spend. Call us soon as there are’t many shops that have these SEs and they are going fast. Ask for Bill (the owner) or Rich and tell them you put up a post on the newsgroup! Val (aka QRTOO)

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Question:

Newbie-ish question here. I can’t afford to get 2 disk wheels or trispoke wheels etc. At a recent ride however, I notice several configurations of these kinds of wheels. What are the advantages of front/rear placement if you could afford only one wheel? I would figure a tri-spoke in the front would work better than one in the back, since the rear wheel drafts off the front somewhat. With a disk wheel, I can see how one on the front might impede handling in cross winds. Christmas isn’t too far away, and I’m thinking about getting one wheel. What’s the consensus? front or back? thanks, S.

In my opinion, an aero front wheel is better than an aero rear wheel. As you state, the rear wheel rides in a draft behind the seatpost and the front wheel. The front wheel, though, catches still air and thus the drag is slightly higher on that wheel. Thus, it is more beneficial to go aero in the front, if you can only buy one wheel. A recent issue of Triathlete mentioned that the time savings for aero wheels is not terribly large (about one minute per wheel per 40 km race). It might be more beneficial to invest elsewhere, IF YOU ARE ON A LIMITED BUDGET!!! Rolf Arands

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Aero bars can help just about everyone, however, because positioning effects kick in at lower speeds. Plus the comfort factor!! It took me almost a year to get comfortable in aero-bar position. I don’t know if the aero position is necessarily beneficial to a rider’s power output or comfort level. When I’m not trying to motor I rarely get into the aero position for comforts sake. (After a couple of years I’ve gotten to the point where I can ride a 40k without getting out of the aerobars but this took a major readaptation of my back, neck, and leg muscles).

I’ve heard other people have problems like this too. It took me about 3 weeks to get really comfortable on them, and the only reason it took that long was that I adjusted my seat slightly and it took 3 weeks to get where I wanted it (I was being kind to my knees). I’ve had no problems breathing or pedalling, but I do find I drop my head more when I’m tucked down. The only thing that really worried me at all was learning to maintain a comfortable line (when I first started training hard in the aero position, I found I wobbled a bit too much for my liking). Oh yeah, I also don’t get sore hands on long rides now, because the aero bars offer many more riding positions than conventional drops alone. Just my $A0.05 (I hate our exchange rate!) matt P.S. Hi Paul! How’s the biathlons?

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Aero bars can help just about everyone, however, because positioning effects kick in at lower speeds. Plus the comfort factor!!

It took me almost a year to get comfortable in aero-bar position. I don’t know if the aero position is necessarily beneficial to a rider’s power output or comfort level. When I’m not trying to motor I rarely get into the aero position for comforts sake. (After a couple of years I’ve gotten to the point where I can ride a 40k without getting out of the aerobars but this took a major readaptation of my back, neck, and leg muscles).

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According to data in Nytro catalog (which was compiled from data supplied by Zipp, Kestel, Profile, etc), here are time savings: Aero-bars: 2:40 ~$100 – $120 Aero front wheel: :56 ~$300 – $500 Aero rear wheel: :54 ~$300 – $500 Aero frame (Kestrel KM40 or Zipp) :54 ~$1500 – $2300 Aero drinking system: :16 ~$30 – $50

NOTE: These time savings are probably all using the semi- de-facto standard, "MSOAFKTT" (Minutes Saved On A Forty K Time Trial), and hopefully were done independantly. Note they also were also based on some operating-point speed, say 20mph. Aero benefits are NOT cumulative. Everything is based on the current configuration — indeed, if your cruising speed is is higher than what they used in their tests, you might get more significant savings (for a particular gizmo) and it may well be your already-aero setup which got you there! Which is to say, if you’re already fast, aero stuff will make you faster, but if you aren’t, it won’t do much. Aero bars can help just about everyone, however, because positioning effects kick in at lower speeds. Plus the comfort factor!! Have a GREAT one! John — Dartmouth College 603-646-2368 Hanover NH 03755 603-646-3856 (fax)

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According to data in Nytro catalog (which was compiled from data supplied by Zipp, Kestel, Profile, etc), here are time savings: Aero-bars: 2:40 ~$100 – $120 Aero front wheel: :56 ~$300 – $500 Aero rear wheel: :54 ~$300 – $500 Aero frame (Kestrel KM40 or Zipp) :54 ~$1500 – $2300 Aero drinking system: :16 ~$30 – $50

I prioritize my upgrades on $/sec-saved. Given the numbers listed above, it is no surprize that aerobars are far and away the best investment you can make for a tri or time trial (plus $100 to $200 is high for aerobars). If you are doing tri’s without aerobars, you are working much harder than you have to. Not only do they put you in a more aero position (obviously), but they allow you to breathe MUCH easier and keep you whole upper body more relaxed. On the other end of the $/sec-saved scale – if you have the bucks to blow, go for the expensive frames! Most people on the net like to talk about blowing by the guys on the Kestrels, Zipps, etc.. I look at them in the transition area and when I pass them and wish I could have their toys! I have a doctor triathete friend that has the motto: "I may be outperformed, but I won’t be out spent!". I’m jealous — Keith Jackson | phone: 216-977-1160 Sverdrup Technology, Inc |

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Did they mention what the time savings was for aerobars compared to conventional road bike bars? I would guess that it might be larger. I assume anyone contemplating aero-wheels already has aero-bars, but I am curious as to the size of the effect.

According to data in Nytro catalog (which was compiled from data supplied by Zipp, Kestel, Profile, etc), here are time savings: Aero-bars: 2:40 ~$100 – $120 Aero front wheel: :56 ~$300 – $500 Aero rear wheel: :54 ~$300 – $500 Aero frame (Kestrel KM40 or Zipp) :54 ~$1500 – $2300 Aero drinking system: :16 ~$30 – $50 This is all I can remember now. The prices were added by me… Kostya Vasilyev, SYMANTEC Corporation, Bedrock group Cytomax Junkie 10201 Torre Avenue Cupertino, CA 95014 (408) 446-7165

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In my opinion, an aero front wheel is better than an aero rear wheel. As you state, the rear wheel rides in a draft behind the seatpost and the front wheel. [Stuff deleted.] A recent issue of Triathlete mentioned that the time savings for aero wheels is not terribly large (about one minute per wheel per 40 km race). It might be more beneficial to invest elsewhere, IF YOU ARE ON A LIMITED BUDGET!!!

Did they mention what the time savings was for aerobars compared to conventional road bike bars? I would guess that it might be larger. I assume anyone contemplating aero-wheels already has aero-bars, but I am curious as to the size of the effect.

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A recent issue of Triathlete mentioned that the time savings for aero wheels is not terribly large (about one minute per wheel per 40 km race). It might be more beneficial to invest elsewhere, IF YOU ARE ON A LIMITED BUDGET!!! Did they mention what the time savings was for aerobars compared to conventional road bike bars? I would guess that it might be larger. I assume anyone contemplating aero-wheels already has aero-bars, but I am curious as to the size of the effect.

Yes, they did. About 3.5 minutes saved with aerobars for 40 km. Rolf Arands

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[...Scott wants to know whether a front or back aero wheel is better...] In my opinion, an aero front wheel is better than an aero rear wheel. As you state, the rear wheel rides in a draft behind the seatpost and the front wheel.

Whatever you do, DON’T put a DISK in front! Scott mentioned (or alluded to) this posibility in his original posting. The gyroscopic effect will totally shitcan your handling. On the other hand, people use "Tri-Spokes" both in the front and back. A word of caution, reenforcing what Rolf said: if you’re on a limited budget, make sure you explore other time-saving options first. POSITIONING is the most critical factore (other than optimal training); that’s why *properly-positioned* aerobars provide noticable gains. Also look at drivetrain; look at gearing and crank arm length (See Oct. TriGeek). And look at WEIGHT savings (on the bike, not you!) (then again, we haven’t met! 8^) ) Aero wheels are extremely seductive, incredibly high-tech, but are there low-tech solutions? And TRAINING: I always ask, what could Mark Allen do on *my* bike? Then I put away my Discover card and go train some more!!! Have a GREAT one! John — Dartmouth College 603-646-2368 Hanover NH 03755 603-646-3856 (fax)

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Newbie-ish question here. I can’t afford to get 2 disk wheels or trispoke wheels etc. At a recent ride however, I notice several configurations of these kinds of wheels. What are the advantages of front/rear placement if you could afford only one wheel? I would figure a tri-spoke in the front would work better than one in the back, since the rear wheel drafts off the front somewhat. With a disk wheel, I can see how one on the front might impede handling in cross winds. Christmas isn’t too far away, and I’m thinking about getting one wheel. What’s the consensus? front or back? thanks, S. — Scott Shackleton __o (_)/ (_) is another cup of coffee.

Sport Triathlon Wiki

Best rst thread of all time, I think

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