Question:

I am looking at getting a road bike to do some group rides as well as 3 – 4 triathlons per year. No road races envisioned though. I live in a hilly, mountanious area. I would like to use aero bars for the tri’s, especially if I am on a flatter course I read somewhere that aero bars should not be put on a road bike (wierd geometry?). Is this true? Is there anyway to temporarily convert a road bike to a tri-bike (seat post, stem, "roady" aero bars etc) that WORKS? Or should I just buy a tri-bike and suck wind on the hills? Road bikes I am considering: Trek 2300, Trek 5200 (if I get a great price!), Lemond BA, Giant TCR2, Giant OCR1, CD R700, Jamis Quest Also: Opus, Devinci, Oryx, Argon 18 (Canadian brands) Tri bikes: CD MS700si, Trek Hilo1000

Response:

I’ve got Profile Aerobars on a road bike. At 6ft 2inches, 200 lean pounds, I find aero bars are a great help not just going fast and flat, but going against any significant headwind. The amount of wind resistance my upper body offers is significant. I’m sure that the seat angle isn’t ideal for use with tri-bars, but I’m happy with it, and don’t suffer any obvious side effects. I’m told, but have not read any studies, that aero bars make little or no difference at speeds under 25mph (in my case see para-1). ++Mark.

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I read somewhere that aero bars should not be put on a road bike (wierd geometry?). Is this true? Is there anyway to temporarily convert a road bike to a tri-bike (seat post, stem, "roady" aero bars etc) that WORKS? Road bikes I am considering: Trek 2300, Trek 5200 (if I get a great price!), Lemond BA, Giant TCR2, Giant OCR1, CD R700, Jamis Quest Also: Opus, Devinci, Oryx, Argon 18 (Canadian brands)

I have a Trek 2300 road bike with clip on profile aero bars.  When I put on the bars, I just move my seat forward and that gets me in a pretty good aero position.  Works great for me.  I used to have a tri bike, but I have found that I prefer the less steep seat tube – my power output is better and I am significantly faster on the road frame. Troy

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I just put a pair of Profile Jammer GT’s on my road bike and like them very much. They work well on the longer top tube of my road bike. Had a pair of Syntace C2’s on the bike and didn’t like the way I fit them, even though I have them on my tri bike.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking at getting a road bike to do some group rides as well as 3 – 4 triathlons per year. No road races envisioned though. I live in a hilly, mountanious area. I would like to use aero bars for the tri’s, especially if I am on a flatter course I read somewhere that aero bars should not be put on a road bike (wierd geometry?). Is this true? Is there anyway to temporarily convert a road bike to a tri-bike (seat post, stem, "roady" aero bars etc) that WORKS? Or should I just buy a tri-bike and suck wind on the hills? Road bikes I am considering: Trek 2300, Trek 5200 (if I get a great price!), Lemond BA, Giant TCR2, Giant OCR1, CD R700, Jamis Quest Also: Opus, Devinci, Oryx, Argon 18 (Canadian brands) Tri bikes: CD MS700si, Trek Hilo1000

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I own an Argon 18 Platinum (www.veloargon18.com) road geometry with Aerobars.  I believe I get more power from the traditional road geometry & have had no problems in the transition from bike to run. In the spring I did some group rides & road races where I removed the clamp on bars.  Then a few weeks before the 1st Multisport race comes around I clamp them back on again. Works for me. Cheers, Paul "Speedy" Gonsalves – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking at getting a road bike to do some group rides as well as 3 – 4 triathlons per year. No road races envisioned though. I live in a hilly, mountanious area. I would like to use aero bars for the tri’s, especially if I am on a flatter course I read somewhere that aero bars should not be put on a road bike (wierd geometry?). Is this true? Is there anyway to temporarily convert a road bike to a tri-bike (seat post, stem, "roady" aero bars etc) that WORKS? Or should I just buy a tri-bike and suck wind on the hills? Road bikes I am considering: Trek 2300, Trek 5200 (if I get a great price!), Lemond BA, Giant TCR2, Giant OCR1, CD R700, Jamis Quest Also: Opus, Devinci, Oryx, Argon 18 (Canadian brands) Tri bikes: CD MS700si, Trek Hilo1000

– Paul Gonsalves 519-577-9060 www.balfa.com www.canari.com www.flash-5.com www.cytosport.com www.dmtshoes.com www.carbboom.com www.veloargon18.com www.stellaazzurra.com www.schwalbetires.com www.hammernutrition.com

Response:

I am looking at getting a road bike to do some group rides as well as 3 – 4 triathlons per year.

This is the way to go. The Profile Jammer GT bars are identical to the John Cobb "big slam" bars. Read the technical articles on this website for a good expalnation of aerobars on a road bike. http://www.bicyclesports.com/accessories/aerobars/slambars.html

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Hi Gonzo- I was wondering the same thing.. With respect to bikes, I looked long and hard at the Devinci and was quite pleased with what you got for the price. Same thing with the Opus. I am in Ontario.. I ended up with a Specialized Allez Sport and plan on putting aeros on it too. Good luck with the aeros- let us know what you decide! Jenn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking at getting a road bike to do some group rides as well as 3 – 4 triathlons per year. No road races envisioned though. I live in a hilly, mountanious area. I would like to use aero bars for the tri’s, especially if I am on a flatter course I read somewhere that aero bars should not be put on a road bike (wierd geometry?). Is this true? Is there anyway to temporarily convert a road bike to a tri-bike (seat post, stem, "roady" aero bars etc) that WORKS? Or should I just buy a tri-bike and suck wind on the hills? Road bikes I am considering: Trek 2300, Trek 5200 (if I get a great price!), Lemond BA, Giant TCR2, Giant OCR1, CD R700, Jamis Quest Also: Opus, Devinci, Oryx, Argon 18 (Canadian brands) Tri bikes: CD MS700si, Trek Hilo1000

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many people strap aerobars on a road bike… the level of success YOU have depends alot on fit.  It depends on your flexibility (can you comfortably pedal with a closed hip??? without significant loss of power?). If not, how far forward do you need to move the seat? does it require a longer stem to allow a flat back and comfortable breathing? if so, are you now so far forward that your bike’s safe handling is compromised? obviously, some of the handling qualities depend on your weight distribution and the geometry of the bike. It really is a personal thing that requires some trial and error if you want to have one bike for both (and be fit properly for both). I am lucky that my body happens to fit well with my bike for both with few adjustments… i just turn my seatpost around (corima makes a post that works well for this, albeit at considerable cost for a seatpost) and swap out the stem for a slightly longer one, raise the seat a bit, add the aerobars, and i’m perfectly fit for triathlon… total cost of a good post, aerobars and a second stem: < $300. this works for me, but depending on your dimensions, your flexibility and your bike, may not even be close to what your need without your bikes handling degrading seriously. there is only one way to find out – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking at getting a road bike to do some group rides as well as 3 – 4 triathlons per year. No road races envisioned though. I live in a hilly, mountanious area. I would like to use aero bars for the tri’s, especially if I am on a flatter course I read somewhere that aero bars should not be put on a road bike (wierd geometry?). Is this true? Is there anyway to temporarily convert a road bike to a tri-bike (seat post, stem, "roady" aero bars etc) that WORKS? Or should I just buy a tri-bike and suck wind on the hills? Road bikes I am considering: Trek 2300, Trek 5200 (if I get a great price!), Lemond BA, Giant TCR2, Giant OCR1, CD R700, Jamis Quest Also: Opus, Devinci, Oryx, Argon 18 (Canadian brands) Tri bikes: CD MS700si, Trek Hilo1000

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You might consider the Cervelo Soloist ("full-time road bike, part-time tt bike").  Aero frame with road geometry, adjustable seat angle (73.5 to 76 degrees).  Converts easily to a tri-bike.  See www.cervelo.com for details, including a graphic of the morphing process. Their website says: "The Soloist was designed for three types of riders:    1. Racers who want top aerodynamics for breakaways    2. Roadies who want one bike for crits, road races and time trials    3. Riders who do a few multisport events per year but want a road geometry bike for their other rides" Price:  $2,199 msrp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking at getting a road bike to do some group rides as well as 3 – 4 triathlons per year. No road races envisioned though. I live in a hilly, mountanious area. I would like to use aero bars for the tri’s, especially if I am on a flatter course I read somewhere that aero bars should not be put on a road bike (wierd geometry?). Is this true? Is there anyway to temporarily convert a road bike to a tri-bike (seat post, stem, "roady" aero bars etc) that WORKS? Or should I just buy a tri-bike and suck wind on the hills? Road bikes I am considering: Trek 2300, Trek 5200 (if I get a great price!), Lemond BA, Giant TCR2, Giant OCR1, CD R700, Jamis Quest Also: Opus, Devinci, Oryx, Argon 18 (Canadian brands) Tri bikes: CD MS700si, Trek Hilo1000

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Question:

Can anyone tell me where to get info on previous cases of Spinergy wheel failures (some of which led to serious injuries)? One of the competitors at Ironman California suffered a front wheel failure during a fast descent at "dead man’s curve" and suffered serious injury.  He is looking for any info he can find about similar previous cases.  It would be much appreciated.

Response:

No the rim blew outs itself. "I nearly p’d my pants" it went off like a gun. At first I thought it was just the tube/tyre but when I went to take the tyre off it was the rim. Lloyd — Deewal Pty Ltd. web:          http://www.deewal.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are kiddy aren’t you?? Yep, think he was. Whilst sponsoring Andrew Johns a few years ago he had 5 Spinergy wheels replaced in one season yet raced and trained on the one set of wheels that I had build for him by a great wheel builder in Sydney. One of the Spinergy wheels had the sidewall blowout whilst I was pumping the tyres up at Noosa. Hmm. I had a sidewall blowout on a spinergy while I was pumping it up just last week (in fact, this is the only sidewall blowout I’ve ever had). I assumed that it was the result of inner being pinched by the tyre – ie poor fitting by me before blowing it up. Is there another cause of sidewall blowouts? It also didn’t seem to me to be the sort of thing that could go off at any time – while you are pumping up the tyre you hit a certain psi and BANG! In the scheme of things, this seems to be a pretty un-catastrophic event, as it is only likely to happen whilst pumping up the tyre.

Response:

Whilst sponsoring Andrew Johns a few years ago he had 5 Spinergy wheels replaced in one season yet raced and trained on the one set of wheels that I had build for him by a great wheel builder in Sydney. One of the Spinergy wheels had the sidewall blowout whilst I was pumping the tyres up at Noosa. Hmm. I had a sidewall blowout on a spinergy while I was pumping it up just last week (in fact, this is the only sidewall blowout I’ve ever had). I assumed that it was the result of inner being pinched by the tyre – ie poor fitting by me before blowing it up. Is there another cause of sidewall blowouts?

I think you’re talking about a different kind of failure.  If I’m not mistaken, the Spinergy failure constituted the sidewall of the RIM blowing out. It also didn’t seem to me to be the sort of thing that could go off at any time – while you are pumping up the tyre you hit a certain psi and BANG! In the scheme of things, this seems to be a pretty un-catastrophic event, as it is only likely to happen whilst pumping up the tyre.

If you head a BANG! then the tube did in fact get outside the tire. It can be catastrophic, however.  Depending on how much of the tube gets out, the tire can act normally for quite a while.  The pressure between the bead and the rim will pinch the tube protrusion off for a while, with the slight flexing of the tire during riding being enough to start letting air into the protrusion.  When it DOES go, you’re on an "instant flat", and quite likely be rattled a bit from the loud noixe.  Not a good thing. Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.cynetfl.com/habanero/ Home of the $695 ti frame

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That’s interesting! I’ve seen a lot of normal spoke wheel failures so I don’t dare use them anymore. Spinergies are much safer.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone tell me where to get info on previous cases of Spinergy wheel failures (some of which led to serious injuries)? One of the competitors at Ironman California suffered a front wheel failure during a fast descent at "dead man’s curve" and suffered serious injury. He is looking for any info he can find about similar previous cases.  It would be much appreciated.

Response:

You are kiddy aren’t you??

Yep, think he was. Whilst sponsoring Andrew Johns a few years ago he had 5 Spinergy wheels replaced in one season yet raced and trained on the one set of wheels that I had build for him by a great wheel builder in Sydney. One of the Spinergy wheels had the sidewall blowout whilst I was pumping the tyres up at Noosa.

Hmm. I had a sidewall blowout on a spinergy while I was pumping it up just last week (in fact, this is the only sidewall blowout I’ve ever had). I assumed that it was the result of inner being pinched by the tyre – ie poor fitting by me before blowing it up. Is there another cause of sidewall blowouts? It also didn’t seem to me to be the sort of thing that could go off at any time – while you are pumping up the tyre you hit a certain psi and BANG! In the scheme of things, this seems to be a pretty un-catastrophic event, as it is only likely to happen whilst pumping up the tyre.

Response:

I did not see the wheel first hand.  The official who was with the athlete reported that it was a carbon wheel (not a spinergy).  I don’t own one, don’t have an opinion on them, just want to be fair. R Hill USAT Ref IM CA

Response:

WOW! I did that race and could only imagine the horror of crashing on that curve. I wish I too, had info on these wheels. Bill howard

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone tell me where to get info on previous cases of Spinergy wheel failures (some of which led to serious injuries)? One of the competitors at Ironman California suffered a front wheel failure during a fast descent at "dead man’s curve" and suffered serious injury. He is looking for any info he can find about similar previous cases.  It would be much appreciated.

Response:

Yipe.  I was volunteering in T2 at IMCAL, racking bikes.  

You were at IMCAL and did not tell me? I would have loved to meet you in person as it was you and Jason with your IMC race reports that gave me the insane idea to complete an Ironman. You’ve just got to travel east for a race and a "Southern" RST gathering. David / FEY2K – IMCA 16:53 (remove spaces) at att dot net

Response:

One of the competitors at Ironman California suffered a front wheel failure during a fast descent at "dead man’s curve" and suffered serious injury.  He is looking for any info he can find about similar previous cases.  

Yipe.  I was volunteering in T2 at IMCAL, racking bikes.  I saw this bike after it was brought in, and found myself wondering, "Did the wheel break as a result of the crash, or did the wheel fail and CAUSE the crash?" Am trying to remember what I heard about it at the time.  I have a vague recollection of someone telling me about it, and their impression was that the fellow crashed first and the wheel destruction was the result, not the cause.  But he could have been wrong. Either way…OUCH!  It was ugly to behold. TriBaby                                     _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

Response:

below is the infamous spinergy link if that is what u r looking for. Good Luck to your friend, I wish him a full and speedy recovery. BTW, I have a spinergy front wheel that hangs in my garage. I’ve thought of trying to sell it, but the $200 i might get is not worth the clear conscience that I have now by not selling it to someone who might get severly injured by using it. http://home.interlynx.net/~pjdu/. Jean-Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone tell me where to get info on previous cases of Spinergy wheel failures (some of which led to serious injuries)? One of the competitors at Ironman California suffered a front wheel failure during a fast descent at "dead man’s curve" and suffered serious injury.  He is looking for any info he can find about similar previous cases.  It would be much appreciated.

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Question:

Thus spoke Adam Ornstein: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Robert Hass, in his book EAT TO WIN, criticized commercial sports drinks as "sugar-laced and salt-loaded" beverages not helpful to athletic performance.  He referred to carefully controlled [zap] "Researchers working with the ACSM determined that the maximum concentration of sugar, salt, and potassium in any sports fluid replacement beverage should be, for every 8 ounces of fluid, 5.9 grams of sugar, 55 milligrams of sodium, and 46 milligrams of potassium.  This is a great deal less than what is to be found in sports drinks.  Yet no more than this concentration of nutrients can be absorbed efficiently from your stomach and delivered efficiently to the areas of your body that require them." –Eat to Win, p. 104 Hass recommended drinking water, or, if one wants a sports drink, to mix 1 cup of water, 2 Tbsp o.j. and 1/3 tsp table salt. So what do folks in cyberland say?  Is Hass right or wrong?  Are there studies that have yielded results contrary to those cited by Hass?  Have sports drinks significantly changed formulation since EAT TO WIN was published in 1983?  I don’t have a position on this matter one way or the other, so please don’t flame me!

        Greetings. Well, I Hass to agree I may not be a "runner",         more of a "jogger", but I have a few hundred miles behind         me (and it’s a big behind . In the beginning, I drank pure         water. That’s great except that I heard on TV (the portal         of truth that it is) that marathoners or cyclists eat         lemons/citrus to promote saliva flow and prevent the dreaded         dry mouth. So, I trashed the water and picked up "tart"         fruit drinks. This was a BAAAD move. I was dizzy for the         first few miles as the sugar was absorbed… then, just         when I needed that _extra_ mental push to get over a hill         in my route, the sugar was all used up and I CRASHED…         Well, that was so little fun that I gave that up real         quick.         So, I’m back to water, with 2 teaspoons of "LoSalt" which is         a mix of sodium and potassium – 50/50 I think, with a twist         of lime to give the saliva a run for its money… I’m         happy.         Which reminds me, other than the flavor, does "citrus"         really bring out the saliva? I have a feeling that, at         least in my case, it’s more my brain at work than anything         else…. BUT it DOES work.         Take care. — | http://alpha.med.pitt.edu:9000 for new sci.electronics FAQ V2 & my home page | Enjoy your job, work within the law, make lots of money : Choose any two. | Making money with CS and spending it on EE, robotics, SCA, & dreams. NOT(PC)

Response:

: Robert Hass, in his book EAT TO WIN, criticized commercial sports : drinks as "sugar-laced and salt-loaded" beverages not helpful to : athletic performance.  He referred to carefully controlled : scientific studies and research done at the American College of : Sports Medicine (ACSM) finding sports drinks to be poor fluid and : salt replacement beverages. : <snip : Hass recommended drinking water, or, if one wants a sports drink, : to mix 1 cup of water, 2 Tbsp o.j. and 1/3 tsp table salt. Just one comment re the above reference: Eat to Win has been around for awhile. When this book was written, only preliminary research had been done on sports drinks–his opinions reflect the prevailing views of exercise professionals at that time. Since then a lot more research has been done, including studies that look at actual performance, not just isolated physiologic processes like gastric emptying, etc. The accepted view on sports drinks has evolved quite a bit since Eat to Win, and research has shown that they do provide some benefit under certain conditions. Keep in mind also, however, that much of the same benefits can be provided via home concoctions. Sports drinks are not magic, but for some people, the convenience might be worth the cost. Rick Gerwin

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…stuff deleted | ORT works.  You can achieve a similar effect by adding a small amount of | salt to a can of Coke.  The Coke will taste sweeter (yes) than usual.  As | for the rehydration effect, you be the judge yourself.  Personally, I use | that myself. What about the caffeine in Coke?  It acts as a diuretic and I can’t imagine that adding salt would counteract the effects.  I understand the idea of ORT (sugar, water, salt) but it seems to me that using any caffeinated beverage as a base, rather than water, would counteract any benefits you might get. -Jennifer  ( )_( )   Jennifer L. Holcom           *   Transgenic mice are nice!           (o o)    Baylor College of Medicine   *     /     Dept. of Cell Biology        *      

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| To add what is perhaps a stupid question, if Gatorade type | drinks aren’t so hot, why is it being served during the Marine | Corps Marathon?  Is it simply a matter of corporate | sponsorship?   | | Naively, | | Pete Gatoraid is fine, only dilute it especially in conditions where you require more water (eg heat, altitude, more strenuous types of aerobic activity. And… maybe we should support them if they are nice enough to sponsor our events.

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        I mix Gatorade with Kool-Aid. I can’t say how much it does for my running but it tastes good!

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To add what is perhaps a stupid question, if Gatorade type drinks aren’t so hot, why is it being served during the Marine Corps Marathon?  Is it simply a matter of corporate sponsorship?   Naively, Pete

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says: To add what is perhaps a stupid question, if Gatorade type drinks aren’t so hot, why is it being served during the Marine Corps Marathon?  Is it simply a matter of corporate sponsorship?

Gosh, the U.S. military has never before been associated with wasteful, needless, or inefficient use of resources.  ;-)

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I’ve used Cytomax on long duration runs (over 3 hours) and it does seem to help. They have a good breakdown of the hows and whys of their product on the outside of the can, and, so far, my body tells me their claims are true. I drank the stuff as per instructions while on a huge burner the other day; 7,500 vertical feet of climb topping out at around13,600ft. (Mt. Tom, east-side Sierra.) Felt "good" the whole way. No bad power surges or outages caused by simple-sugars… I believe! (Maybe that’s all that matters.) Happy Trails Mini (p.s. Pain: it’s not just for breakfast anymore.)

Response:

: Robert Hass, in his book EAT TO WIN, criticized commercial sports : drinks as "sugar-laced and salt-loaded" beverages not helpful to : athletic performance.  He referred to carefully controlled : scientific studies and research done at the American College of : Sports Medicine (ACSM) finding sports drinks to be poor fluid and : salt replacement beverages. : <snip : Hass recommended drinking water, or, if one wants a sports drink, : to mix 1 cup of water, 2 Tbsp o.j. and 1/3 tsp table salt. I may have written this before but here goes again.  In developing countries, when children have diarrhoea, they are given a treatment called ORT or Oral Rehydration Therapy.  The idea is to make their bodies absorb fluids and so maintain their conditions until they can be treated for their ailment. ORT consists of water in the amount that is in a Coke bottle with 7(?) parts of sugar and 1 part of salt. (Note that this seems similar to the Hass recommendation.)  The exact proportion eludes me now. This proportion is the same as that in Gatorade, which originated in U of Florida, home of the ‘Gators. ORT works.  You can achieve a similar effect by adding a small amount of salt to a can of Coke.  The Coke will taste sweeter (yes) than usual.  As for the rehydration effect, you be the judge yourself.  Personally, I use that myself. It should be noted though that ORT is therapy.  That is, it is not in the usual scheme of things.  So in the usual scheme of things, that is when not exercising or needing to force the body to absorb the water, just plain water is good enough.

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I’m new to this newsgroup so forgive me if this topic has already been hashed through. . . Robert Hass, in his book EAT TO WIN, criticized commercial sports drinks as "sugar-laced and salt-loaded" beverages not helpful to athletic performance.  He referred to carefully controlled scientific studies and research done at the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) finding sports drinks to be poor fluid and salt replacement beverages. "Researchers working with the ACSM determined that the maximum concentration of sugar, salt, and potassium in any sports fluid replacement beverage should be, for every 8 ounces of fluid, 5.9 grams of sugar, 55 milligrams of sodium, and 46 milligrams of potassium.  This is a great deal less than what is to be found in sports drinks.  Yet no more than this concentration of nutrients can be absorbed efficiently from your stomach and delivered efficiently to the areas of your body that require them." –Eat to Win, p. 104 Hass recommended drinking water, or, if one wants a sports drink, to mix 1 cup of water, 2 Tbsp o.j. and 1/3 tsp table salt. So what do folks in cyberland say?  Is Hass right or wrong?  Are there studies that have yielded results contrary to those cited by Hass?  Have sports drinks significantly changed formulation since EAT TO WIN was published in 1983?  I don’t have a position on this matter one way or the other, so please don’t flame me! Regards, Adam

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I’m new to this newsgroup so forgive me if this topic has already been hashed through. . . Robert Hass, in his book EAT TO WIN, criticized commercial sports drinks as "sugar-laced and salt-loaded" beverages not helpful to athletic performance.  He referred to carefully controlled scientific studies and research done at the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) finding sports drinks to be poor fluid and salt replacement beverages. <snip Hass recommended drinking water, or, if one wants a sports drink, to mix 1 cup of water, 2 Tbsp o.j. and 1/3 tsp table salt. So what do folks in cyberland say?  Is Hass right or wrong?  Are

<snip I studied all this a year of so ago.  I no longer remember the specifics, and as always, opinions are conflicting and constantly changing on this with the "latest" research.  I do remember MY conclusion after the review because it is what I practice today.  I’ll revisit the issue again in the future.  What I now do is: For my normal daily workout schedule (40 to 60 mins):  I drink only water.  Lots of it all day long.  If it is hot, or I feel I need it, I also drink water during exercise.  I drink immediately after also. For my long runs and bicycle rides:  If I am hungry, a half hour before the workout, I eat a powerbar.  I drink Gatorade diluted to 50% its normal strength during the exercise.  I generally run out and switch to water in the later stages.  I feel that extra carbos help me get through these long 2+ hour workouts. I eat good food high in carbos after all exercises, within 1/2 to 1 hour. My meals are quite varied and often include as many as 20 different food items, so I don’t worry about electrolyte replacement.  It is all in there.  Mark Hays                     |          __o         o  California State Univ, Fresno |        _`<;        <|v

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| I’m new to this newsgroup so forgive me if this topic has already | been hashed through. . . | | Robert Hass, in his book EAT TO WIN, criticized commercial sports | drinks as "sugar-laced and salt-loaded" beverages not helpful to | athletic performance.  He referred to carefully controlled | scientific studies and research done at the American College of | Sports Medicine (ACSM) finding sports drinks to be poor fluid and | salt replacement beverages. | | "Researchers working with the ACSM determined that the maximum | concentration of sugar, salt, and potassium in any sports fluid | replacement beverage should be, for every 8 ounces of fluid, 5.9 | grams of sugar, 55 milligrams of sodium, and 46 milligrams of | potassium.  This is a great deal less than what is to be found in | sports drinks.  Yet no more than this concentration of nutrients | can be absorbed efficiently from your stomach and delivered | efficiently to the areas of your body that require them." –Eat | to Win, p. 104 | | Hass recommended drinking water, or, if one wants a sports drink, | to mix 1 cup of water, 2 Tbsp o.j. and 1/3 tsp table salt. | | So what do folks in cyberland say?  Is Hass right or wrong?  Are | there studies that have yielded results contrary to those cited | by Hass?  Have sports drinks significantly changed formulation | since EAT TO WIN was published in 1983?  I don’t have a position | on this matter one way or the other, so please don’t flame me! | | Regards, | | Adam Well now that all the dust has settled and half the sports drink companies have gone belly-up, the latest information I’ve read essentially confirms what Hass said. This argument is of course never going to be over until the sports drink companies quit paying for the research. The things you should be aware of from recent research I’ve read in Physician and Sports Medicine and elseware are that ingesting sugar replacement drinks for events longer than a couple of hours IS helpful since it conserves liver glycogen, that glucose and sucrose (which gets almost immediately broken down to glucose/fructose) are superior to fructose, and that most commercial products need to be diluted for use during an event. I’ll add my personal experience in running and coaching for many years that the optimum dilution level depends on temperature, altitude and probably the individual. Remember that the faster you lose water the more water you need, hence, the more dilute your drinks should be. Always try these things out before you use them in an important event by using them during your training.

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The statements regarding sports drinks, that is, they are entirely too strong for good adsorption is accurate when reffering to the mass marketted and heavily advertised products (i.e. Gatoraid). In the past few years a large number of much more scientifically formulated drink have been produced. The ones that I have tried and some comments are as follows: Exceed – A good fluid although the fructose bothers me a bit Conquest – Not widely available 1-800-we-sweat is the toll free number of what is basically a basement operation. Good drink contains no simple sugars, taste gets a bit much after 50K or so of running. Cytomax – My wife uses this and prefers the lemon lime flavor E-Caps Power Surge – really unusual tasting, not sweet at all but you can drink it a quite high concentrations and still absorb it. This is what I’m currently using. The concentrations given on the cans for these drinks should only be used under cool conditions (i.e. < 60F). I find as the weather heats up that you should dilute to 50% of the recomended concentration or else I stop absorbing the fluid. I recommend that you make frequent use of a variety of fluids in training before ever using them in a race. For use after training Gatorade and similar drinks are a good choice as the problem of high concentrations of simple sugars is not a problem. Best to have this to rehydrate a bit before quaffing a few brews — Andy Jones – ULTRA – (U)nknown (L)engths (T)est (R)eal (A)thletes

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| I dunno either way, but I can tell you that water TASTES better than those | sick sport drinks! (I we have well water…minerals and stuff) | | Dani I find that the product "Excel" is good. This comes as a concentrate that is mixed with water, about 1.5 oz to a 28oz water bottle. It’s taste is kind of neutral, not sweet, not like Gatorade, but you know it’s not plain water. It contains both electrolytes and carbs and is one of the few drinks that doesn’t upset my stomach; I can drink a couple "glasses" of Gatorade both that happens and none before a race — Excel is OK anytime.

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I dunno either way, but I can tell you that water TASTES better than those sick sport drinks! (I we have well water…minerals and stuff) Dani

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks group, This was very educational. How much sodium do you add? The product I am using is 30mg Sodium, 22mg Magnesium, and 95mg Potassium in a Maltodextrin and Fructose base. Karl I assume that you mean per 8oz. serving.  Assuming that, 30mg is not a lot. Gatorade, Powerbar Perform, and Met-Rx ORS all are in the 100-110mg range (per 8oz serving).  As a minimum I would shoot for this range.  Like others that have responded to this post, I have been tested in a lab and I lose sodium at a faster rate than average so I consume more than average. Jeremy

Actually it is a powder and recommend for 16 oz of water. When you say you have been tested for sodium loss have you been tested for other salts as well? The real incentive is the osmolatity of 220, blood has 250 and gatorade has tested at an osmolality of about 280. The lower osmolality enables fluid to be absorbed quickly to rehydrate and balance electrolytes. Is maltodextrin comparable to sucrose? Karl Have run over 30, 8-20K runs but arthritis has slowed me down the last 8 years so you are all experts to me. As you can tell it was made for "general" sports nutrition and not specific for running at www.ultimate-performance.com General Site with no reference to me.

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I agree with Sam. Everyone loses sodium at a different rate.  I add a pinch of salt in a bottle of sports drink.     I used to take a lot of fluid but I used to get a light headache after a long run (12 miles +).  Since I started adding a pinch of salt I didn’t get headache again.  Also everyone absorbs different amount of water.  It took me two years, and 2 half marathons to find  out how much water I should take.   I take 8 oz at least 20 minutes before  a long run, 8 oz after 20 minutes run, and 8 oz every 15 minutes after.  Work like a charm. Avtar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The sodium levels are within the ranges of the scientific literature but everyone loses sodium at a different rate.  I found thru lab testing that I lose more than the average person so I add salty snacks with my beverage of choice—-Gatorade—-while exercising. Actually Gatorade has some sodium that helps retain the fluid.  If you are drinking any beverage and then 10 minutes are urinating, it was the fluid that was already in you.  How much sodium is in your company’s product? Gatorade has some sodium, but not a lot.  I am a triathlete and ultra distance runner living in southern Arizona, and I have found that I have to add sodium to any sports drink out there.  When it comes to choosing a drink let taste be your guide, because if you don’t like it you won’t drink it (there is evidence of this in clinical studies).  Personally I like Gatorade as much as anything else (which works out nicely because it’s the cheapest).

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Please post (or send) your references, especially to the antioxidants.

My references applying to antioxidants are: Harman, Denham.  "Father of the Free Radical Theory of Aging Looks      Ahead." By Franklin Cameron. Available WWW: http://www.nutritionsciencenews.com/NSN_backs/Jul_98/expert.html McBride, Judy.  "Can Foods Forestall Aging?"      Agricultural Research Magazine February 1999. Stahelin, H.B.; Gey, K.F.; Eichholzer, M.; Ludin, E.; Bernasconi, F.; Thurneysen, J.;      Brubacher, G. Plasma antioxidant vitamins and subsequent cancer mortality in      the 12-year follow up of the prospective basel study.  Am. J. Epidemiol. 1991a,      133, 766-775. Stahelin, H.B.; Gey, K.F.; Eichholzer, M.; Ludin, E.      b-Carotene and cancer prevention: the Basel study.      Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1991b, 53, 265S-269S. Willett, C.W.  Micronutrients and cancer risk.      Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1994, 59, 162S-165S.

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Actually it is a powder and recommend for 16 oz of water.

Based on the distances you race, sodium loss isn’t really much of a problem. So if you like what you are drinking and it doesn’t give you problems then stick with it.  On a hot day just have something salty to eat after the race. When you say you have been tested for sodium loss have you been tested for other salts as well?

Yes, they measured the sodium, potassium, magnesium, as well as glucose (and possibly other things that I don’t recall).  It was tested after a two hour run at 60% of max VO2 on a treadmill in a room with a temp of 30 degrees Celsius, and 60% humidity.  During the run I drank Powerbar Perform Plus which has a sodium content of 110mg per 8oz serving.  My sodium level was 135 mmol/L which is just above the borderline of what is considered a hyponatremic state.  I should add that the testing conditions were cooler, but more humid than what I was used to (it was during the summer in Tempe, Arizona) The real incentive is the osmolatity of 220, blood has 250 and gatorade has tested at an osmolality of about 280. The lower osmolality enables fluid to be absorbed quickly to rehydrate and balance electrolytes. Is maltodextrin comparable to sucrose?

Maltodextrine is a more simple carbohydrate. Karl Have run over 30, 8-20K runs but arthritis has slowed me down the last 8 years so you are all experts to me.

You sound pretty knowledgable to me, and are probably makes you the expert on you.  I should also add that I am a grad student in the Exercise Science Department at Arizona State and that is why I have been tested (they are always looking for subjects).  For the typical athlete, it is probably not important to be that specific. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -As you can tell it was made for "general" sports nutrition and not specific for running at www.ultimate-performance.com General Site with no reference to me.

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Thanks group, This was very educational. How much sodium do you add? The product I am using is 30mg Sodium, 22mg Magnesium, and 95mg Potassium in a Maltodextrin and Fructose base. Karl

I assume that you mean per 8oz. serving.  Assuming that, 30mg is not a lot. Gatorade, Powerbar Perform, and Met-Rx ORS all are in the 100-110mg range (per 8oz serving).  As a minimum I would shoot for this range.  Like others that have responded to this post, I have been tested in a lab and I lose sodium at a faster rate than average so I consume more than average. Jeremy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the consensus of the group regarding the sports drinks on the market. actually, I just finished a study on sports drinks.  My two cent findings. I’ll summarize it here:     Recent evidence has suggested that antioxidants in foods prevent cancer, premature aging, and other diseases attributed to free radicals.  Athletes produce more free radicals than non active persons because of increased cell activity.  Therefore, athletes require greater amounts of antioxidants which neutralize free radicals.  In this study, I developed a manual oxygen radical absorbance capacity (ORAC) assay to quantify the total antioxidant activity in sport drinks and commercial juices.  I hypothesized that sport drinks would contain the lowest amount of antioxidant activity because they are synthetically made and are not significant sources of vitamin A or vitamin C, both of which are antioxidants.  The total antioxidant activity was found as follows: PowerAde 0.7 Gatorade               0.6 All Sport               0.6 Apple Juice 2.1 Grape Juice 1.1 Orange Juice 3.3 V8               3.9 These results suggest that drinking juice rather than sports drinks will have a greater health benefit in terms of antioxidants.

I think that the primary purpose of a sports drink is to promote hydration while exercising.  For that a less than 8% carbohydrate concentration provides the best gastric emptying.  Your results do make a strong case for drinking fruit juice after an event when a higher carbo content is better. V8 is fairly high in sodium as well isn’t it?  That would be good for recovering sodium lost during the run. When looking at antioxidant activity it might be useful to look at the various energy gels because they contain formulations which are supposed to increase antioxidant activity.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the consensus of the group regarding the sports drinks on the market. My company just came out with a low osmolality drink they claim does not stimulate the kidneys. When I was running I would chug down a Gadorate and it would pass right through me before the run was over. Then you were probably are either drinking too much or too frequently. With a little practice you should be able to determine how much and how often you need to drink. Personally, 12oz every 20 minutes works well. If the weather’s cool, I may drink a little less.    -Phil

Most of the sports drinks are expensive corn syrup and water with a dash of salt. Compare the levels of potassium, sodium, calcium and vitamin C in fruit juice to any of the sports drinks. I sweat a lot and can’t absorb liquids fast enough during the race on a hot race day. If I drink plain water it pours through me as fast as I drink it (probably due to adrenalin). I can drink up to two liters of a mixture of orange juice with one to two parts water before a marathon or long run and sweat it out before it gets to my bladder. The only problem I’ve had is if it isn’t hot enough and I don’t sweat it out. A lot of people claim orange juice doesn’t sit well in their stomach. Try watering it down and it works well. Another trick is to always drink one to one and a half liters before you run, even on the short days. This gets the body used to having that much liquid in your stomach. If you don’t use it all you can always pee it out when you get home.

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The sodium levels are within the ranges of the scientific literature but everyone loses sodium at a different rate.  I found thru lab testing that I lose more than the average person so I add salty snacks with my beverage of choice—-Gatorade—-while exercising.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually Gatorade has some sodium that helps retain the fluid.  If you are drinking any beverage and then 10 minutes are urinating, it was the fluid that was already in you.  How much sodium is in your company’s product? Gatorade has some sodium, but not a lot.  I am a triathlete and ultra distance runner living in southern Arizona, and I have found that I have to add sodium to any sports drink out there.  When it comes to choosing a drink let taste be your guide, because if you don’t like it you won’t drink it (there is evidence of this in clinical studies).  Personally I like Gatorade as much as anything else (which works out nicely because it’s the cheapest).

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What is the consensus of the group regarding the sports drinks on the market.

actually, I just finished a study on sports drinks.  My two cent findings. I’ll summarize it here:      Recent evidence has suggested that antioxidants in foods prevent cancer, premature aging, and other diseases attributed to free radicals.  Athletes produce more free radicals than non active persons because of increased cell activity.  Therefore, athletes require greater amounts of antioxidants which neutralize free radicals.  In this study, I developed a manual oxygen radical absorbance capacity (ORAC) assay to quantify the total antioxidant activity in sport drinks and commercial juices.  I hypothesized that sport drinks would contain the lowest amount of antioxidant activity because they are synthetically made and are not significant sources of vitamin A or vitamin C, both of which are antioxidants.  The total antioxidant activity was found as follows: PowerAde        0.7 Gatorade                      0.6 All Sport                     0.6 Apple Juice     2.1 Grape Juice     1.1 Orange Juice    3.3 V8                    3.9 These results suggest that drinking juice rather than sports drinks will have a greater health benefit in terms of antioxidants.

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Actually Gatorade has some sodium that helps retain the fluid.  If you are drinking any beverage and then 10 minutes are urinating, it was the fluid that was already in you.  How much sodium is in your company’s product? Gatorade has some sodium, but not a lot.  I am a triathlete and ultra distance runner living in southern Arizona, and I have found that I have to add sodium to any sports drink out there.  When it comes to choosing a drink let taste be your guide, because if you don’t like it you won’t drink it (there is evidence of this in clinical studies).  Personally I like Gatorade as much as anything else (which works out nicely because it’s the cheapest).

I like QuickDisk myself. It’s one of the few I’ve been able to use consistently and not get sick of it. For replenishing after a workout, tho, I use Cran-Apple juice (from concentrate.)  Cheap and efficient. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

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Please post (or send) your references, especially to the antioxidants. However, juices are typically higher in fructose which can create problems while exercising and also are not as good as sucrose as far as transiting from the gut.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the consensus of the group regarding the sports drinks on the market. actually, I just finished a study on sports drinks.  My two cent findings. I’ll summarize it here:      Recent evidence has suggested that antioxidants in foods prevent cancer, premature aging, and other diseases attributed to free radicals.  Athletes produce more free radicals than non active persons because of increased cell activity.  Therefore, athletes require greater amounts of antioxidants which neutralize free radicals.  In this study, I developed a manual oxygen radical absorbance capacity (ORAC) assay to quantify the total antioxidant activity in sport drinks and commercial juices.  I hypothesized that sport drinks would contain the lowest amount of antioxidant activity because they are synthetically made and are not significant sources of vitamin A or vitamin C, both of which are antioxidants.  The total antioxidant activity was found as follows: PowerAde 0.7 Gatorade               0.6 All Sport               0.6 Apple Juice 2.1 Grape Juice 1.1 Orange Juice 3.3 V8               3.9 These results suggest that drinking juice rather than sports drinks will have a greater health benefit in terms of antioxidants.

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Thanks group, This was very educational. How much sodium do you add? The product I am using is 30mg Sodium, 22mg Magnesium, and 95mg Potassium in a Maltodextrin and Fructose base. Karl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually Gatorade has some sodium that helps retain the fluid.  If you are drinking any beverage and then 10 minutes are urinating, it was the fluid that was already in you.  How much sodium is in your company’s product? Gatorade has some sodium, but not a lot.  I am a triathlete and ultra distance runner living in southern Arizona, and I have found that I have to add sodium to any sports drink out there.  When it comes to choosing a drink let taste be your guide, because if you don’t like it you won’t drink it (there is evidence of this in clinical studies).  Personally I like Gatorade as much as anything else (which works out nicely because it’s the cheapest). I like QuickDisk myself. It’s one of the few I’ve been able to use consistently and not get sick of it. For replenishing after a workout, tho, I use Cran-Apple juice (from concentrate.)  Cheap and efficient. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

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What is the consensus of the group regarding the sports drinks on the market. My company just came out with a low osmolality drink they claim does not stimulate the kidneys. When I was running I would chug down a Gadorate and it would pass right through me before the run was over.

Then you were probably are either drinking too much or too frequently. With a little practice you should be able to determine how much and how often you need to drink. Personally, 12oz every 20 minutes works well. If the weather’s cool, I may drink a little less.    -Phil

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The Committee of Boksburg Athletic Club ( half an hour outside Johannesburg) would like to initiate the forming of a world wide network of road running clubs, the purpose of which would be to offer athletes an introduction service to enable them to assist each other to run in events in other parts of the world. The concept envisioned is that

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Interesting that the guy’s name is named after an anti-runway air to surface bomb.  Guess a french researcher of the same name must have invented it. — Andre Charlebois BPE in exercise science Professional Fitness and Lifestyle Consultant – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bienvenue sur le site du Triathlon de Toulon http://perso.wanadoo.fr/triathlon.toulon/ Toute visite et critiique la bien venue

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Bienvenue sur le site du Triathlon de Toulon http://perso.wanadoo.fr/triathlon.toulon/ Toute visite et critiique la bien venue

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Question:

Charles Garabedian writes: I am trying to buy a wetsuit for the May 17 Columbia triathlon and I need lots of help? Here are some of my questions: Does water get into your wetsuit while swimming ? What do you where in the wetsuit ? How hard is it to get in and out of ? Do I buy a full wetsuit or a slevless wetsuit? 3mm or 5mm of thickness?

Charles, I suggest you consider renting a wetsuit first.  The shop who rents the majority in the DC area is Bonzai Sports and they charge $25 for the weekend. You should contact them soonest since they often rent all that they have.  They can give you a recommendation on the style and size  you need based on your height, weight, swimming proficiency, etc.  See their webpage at www.erols.com/bonzaisports/rentals.html.  Phone (703) 280-2248. Water does get into the wetsduit and your body warms that water and that is what keeps you warm. You can wear biking clothes under the wetsuit as many others do. It is fairly simple to get in and out of, but your speed improves with a little practice, if you have a chance. Bob Williams

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I am trying to buy a wetsuit for the May 17 Columbia triathlon and I need lots of help? Here are some of my questions: Does water get into your wetsuit while swimming ?

A little, but if the suit fits the water stay there and keeps you warm (you don’t get much throughput) What do you where in the wetsuit ?

Stuff you want to wear on the bike/run. Normally tri-shorts (or trunks) and a race vest How hard is it to get in and out of ?

Getting out is not too bad. Putting baby oil on the cuffs (arms and ankles) before the start will help without corroding the suit. Getting in can be harder but the timing isn’t so critical. Do I buy a full wetsuit or a slevless wetsuit?

Depends how warm the water is. If the suit fits the sleeves shouldn’t be too restrictive (but the buouyant arms can be strange – practice in the suit first). In the UK, sleeves are de-rigeur. 3mm or 5mm of thickness?

Most suits have a variety of thicknesses from 2-5mm on different parts of the body. Normally 2mm where flexibility is needed (shoulders) and 5mm body panels for buoyancy. Good swimmers may want less leg buouyancy than poorer swimmers. Anything else would be extremly helpful

Make sure you get all the oil off your hands before touching your goggles! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charles Garabedian

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I am trying to buy a wetsuit for the May 17 Columbia triathlon and I need lots of help? Here are some of my questions: Does water get into your wetsuit while swimming ? What do you where in the wetsuit ? How hard is it to get in and out of ? Do I buy a full wetsuit or a slevless wetsuit? 3mm or 5mm of thickness? Anything else would be extremly helpful Charles Garabedian

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I am trying to buy a wetsuit for the May 17 Columbia triathlon and I need lots of help? Here are some of my questions: Does water get into your wetsuit while swimming ? What do you where in the wetsuit ? How hard is it to get in and out of ? Do I buy a full wetsuit or a sleeveless wetsuit? 3mm or 5mm of thickness? Anything else would be extremely helpful Charles Garabedian

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I have been running for quite a while, and I am not sure how much of a base you have. I do 800’s at 2:20 to 2:25 with 90secs of rest. For a 10k workout, I do 6 to 8 repeats. The 1200’s I run at 3:40 3:35 with 2:30 of rest.  I do 4 to 6. Remeber to tame down the interval times if you have not had alot of running experience.  You said you were a newbie, but I am not sure if that was to each discipline of Tri or the combination. Hope this helps.

– Keith A. Folske

Don’t try and run as fast as Keith here.  He is some phenominal freak of nature if he can run 2:20 800 intervals with only 90sec rest.  I come from a strong running background and I don’t think I could do more than 2 maybe three reps like that.  A little more realistic times for some one starting out are around 3-3:30 with about 90sec-2min rest.  Take a set break of about 3mins after 4 reps and then do four more.  Work up to it.  If your not from a running background it is not a good idea  to jump right in and start running fast long workouts.  Start with four reps and build up to 8. Ezra (sorry no catchy tri nickname.)

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When doing intervals of this nature……what is the proper procedure for 800 and 1200 m intervals…..I am thinking in terms of time pace for interval, how long a rest period between and how many to do? I am still a newbie and trying to get a handle on all this stuff. Any help is greatly appreciated!

On a similar note:  when I ran in x-country in high school, we used to do 400’s and it was an all out effort (it actually turned into sprints, and the loser had to do an extra couple at the end).  Anyway, this is basically how I’ve been doing mine since anything else feels, well, kinda too easy.  If I followed the "slightly faster than your 10k pace" rule of thumb, I think I’d be running 400’s at a 6:30/mile pace or so (ain’t got the speed I once had), but this still seems pretty slow (1:40 per 400 or so).  I can still do pretty quick 400’s, but I wonder if going too fast is not doing any good.  Aside from the increased risk of injury, am I actually hurting myself from a physiological perspective?  Does running closer to race pace raise an AT/LT more than running all out?  Inquiring minds want to know.  Thanks in advance joel falk Northwestern University, Evanston, IL.  USA

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I have been running for quite a while, and I am not sure how much of a base you have. I do 800’s at 2:20 to 2:25 with 90secs of rest. For a 10k workout, I do 6 to 8 repeats. The 1200’s I run at 3:40 3:35 with 2:30 of rest.  I do 4 to 6. Remeber to tame down the interval times if you have not had alot of running experience.  You said you were a newbie, but I am not sure if that was to each discipline of Tri or the combination. Hope this helps. — Keith A. Folske

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When doing intervals of this nature……what is the proper procedure for 800 and 1200 m intervals…..I am thinking in terms of time pace for interval, how long a rest period between and how many to do? I am still a newbie and trying to get a handle on all this stuff. Any help is greatly appreciated!

I’m not fast and I’m certainly no expert, but I know what some of the running books say: – Don’t do intervals until you have established a good base (you should probably have at least one year of running under your belt, and should have a base period in your season of 12 or so weeks before starting speed training) – Don’t do speed work more than once or twice a week. The majority of your running should be done at 1-2 minutes/mile slower than 10 k race pace. Speedwork is very tiring and increases the likelihood of injury. – You can go for unstructured speedwork by incorporating "fartlek" ("speed play") where you just accelerate to 10 k race pace or thereabouts for a couple minutes during a run. Do this a few times during your workout.   – For more structured speedwork (intervals)try this: Warm up for 1-2 miles, then do the following : One 440 yd interval at 10k race pace or slightly faster. One 440 yd interval at VERY slow pace (recovery interval) Repeat three times. Over several weeks you can build up to 8 sets total, or you can increase the speed and recovery intervals to 880yds each. This is just one example. Check out some of the running books for more details. Jeff Galloway’s Book on Running is several years old but it has good info. — Regards, Matt Pope

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What are better for improving my 10k times, 400 meter or 800 meter intervals?

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800 meters, and 1200 meters

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I would even do some 5minute or 10minute intervals.   — Keith A. Folske

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When doing intervals of this nature……what is the proper procedure for 800 and 1200 m intervals…..I am thinking in terms of time pace for interval, how long a rest period between and how many to do? I am still a newbie and trying to get a handle on all this stuff. Any help is greatly appreciated! Ryan    a.k.a. "Tri-Max" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would even do some 5minute or 10minute intervals. — Keith A. Folske

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Question:

While many of you superb athletes are at Wildflower, I will be doing the Tom Landry Triathalon (short course) in Dallas.  Since I have a shoulder problem making swimming difficult, and an Achilles tendon problem making running difficult this ought to be some kind of fun…. I’m doing this because I posted a message of complaint a week ago (titled Woe is me) and I got an answer back from someone who said they would sooner be last than watch.  So, I may be doing the breast stroke, and limp when I run, but I WILL finish. (and damn it I won’t be last, either!) Good luck to all whatever your course may be. John

Response:

I’ll be behind you, assumming I make it over there in time to register. I’m in town for 22 hours–ought to be enough to fit in a sprint tri! Good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While many of you superb athletes are at Wildflower, I will be doing the Tom Landry Triathalon (short course) in Dallas.  Since I have a shoulder problem making swimming difficult, and an Achilles tendon problem making running difficult this ought to be some kind of fun…. I’m doing this because I posted a message of complaint a week ago (titled Woe is me) and I got an answer back from someone who said they would sooner be last than watch.  So, I may be doing the breast stroke, and limp when I run, but I WILL finish. (and damn it I won’t be last, either!) Good luck to all whatever your course may be. John

Response:

Question:

Interesting that you got the penalty for blocking.  An acquaintance of mine came from Costa Rica for this event and we warned him to avoid drafting at all costs (especially after all of the penalties handed out at St. Anthony’s) but we never thought about blocking and I’m sure his English isn’t good enough for him to have understood it if he did happen to attend the meeting before the race.  Sure enough, he was knocked out of 2nd place for his age group and lost his chance for an Ironman spot. Don’t get me wrong!  I’m just relaying a sad story.  Personally, I loved the event and have no complaints whatsoever.  Anyone who was there should agree that the course was wide enough and straight enough that there should have been no mistaking the drafters from the real men!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :  Charlie Crawford annouced that there would be no warnings before a : penalty was assessed.  He said they don’t give you a warning card in the : NBA before you’re given a personal foul.  They don’t slap your hands in : the NFL when you jump off sides and say if you do this again…then we : might just have to give you a penalty.  They simply give you the penalty : and if you argue enough, you get a technical or DQ’d.  Rock and Roll. : The marshals did a great job.  This race was an example of USA Triathlon : taking a tough stance on the rules of the game and following through. Thanks, Jon.  I heard enough gripes from people after the race, it’s always good to hear from the supporters. -CharlieHey harlie,

I participated in Gulf Coast and I have never seen as good a job of officiating in my tri career (over ten years). Keep up the great work. Cheers, Bernie Sher

Response:

Another suggestion that I heard was making men who are penalized wear a mini-skirt for the entire run .  In defense of a few of the people who got dinged…I got it last year for the following reason that I was oblivious to at the time:  I was riding by my lonesome on the left side of the right hand lane because the road was smoother.  This was a 2:00 position (blocking) penalty.  I missed the pre-race meeting or I would have known this and I suspect that there were others this year who did the same thing.  I did see a couple of drafters this year but it wasn’t too bad.  One guy in particular w/a red aero helmet was a big wheel sucker so hopefully he got nailed.  One final comment on the officiating.  Charlie Crawford annouced that there would be no warnings before a penalty was assessed.  He said they don’t give you a warning card in the NBA before you’re given a personal foul.  They don’t slap your hands in the NFL when you jump off sides and say if you do this again…then we might just have to give you a penalty.  They simply give you the penalty and if you argue enough, you get a technical or DQ’d.  Rock and Roll.   The marshals did a great job.  This race was an example of USA Triathlon taking a tough stance on the rules of the game and following through.  

Response:

:  Charlie Crawford annouced that there would be no warnings before a : penalty was assessed.  He said they don’t give you a warning card in the : NBA before you’re given a personal foul.  They don’t slap your hands in : the NFL when you jump off sides and say if you do this again…then we : might just have to give you a penalty.  They simply give you the penalty : and if you argue enough, you get a technical or DQ’d.  Rock and Roll.   : The marshals did a great job.  This race was an example of USA Triathlon : taking a tough stance on the rules of the game and following through.   Thanks, Jon.  I heard enough gripes from people after the race, it’s always good to hear from the supporters. -Charlie

Response:

 505 DAVID BATTISON          29 M SUDBURY                   ON   12:00   66 CHARLES COOLEY          34 M CANTON                    GA    8:00  545 SCOTT GREEN             28 M MORGAN CITY               LA   10:00  452 SCOTT HILBURN           37 M ATLANTA                   GA    8:00

Since most were given 2:00 minute penalties, does this mean that these guys got penalized multiple times or were their penalties just more severe. If it was the former, and say and individual was penalized more than 4 or 5 times in a given race for drafting, then they should be forced (by the NGG) to wear a blaze orange number for the rest of the season or at least during championship races.  Now, talk about a deterrant! Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

Response:

                                                                      Page 1  BOARDWALK RESORT GULF COAST TRIATHLON              Swim 1.2 miles * Bike 56 miles * Run 13.1 miles               Saturday, May 11, 1996 – Panama City Beach, FL          Race director: Jerry Lynch *** Timing: CFT/Sommer Sports Here are the penalties assesed by Charlie Crawford and his super group of marshalls at the Gulf Coast Triathlon! —       Time Penalties Assessed — NO.  FIRST NAME LAST NAME    AG S CITY                      ST PEN   33 JEFF ABRAHAM            30 M TAMPA                     FL    2:00 1101 AL AITKEN               52 M CHARLOTTE                 NC    2:00  701 SARAH ALHOLM            18 F USAFA                     CO    4:00   37 RANDY ALLEN             31 M DAWSONVILLE               GA    2:00  302 GUSTAVO ARNAIZ          36 M PALM COASTACH             FL    2:00  505 DAVID BATTISON          29 M SUDBURY                   ON   12:00  222 TIMOTHY BOLEN           30 M TEMPE                     AZ    2:00   50 CARL BONNER             33 M GREENVILLE                NC    2:00  514 BARRY BRUCKMAN          29 M DALLAS                    TX    2:00 1503 JULIE CALHOUN              F BOCA RATON                FL    2:00 1408 RAYMOND CAMPEAU         34 M RIDGEFIELD PK             NJ    2:00   59 BRITT CANADA            31 M CHATTANOOGA               TN    2:00  960 ERNESTO CARAVEO         23 M NEWPORT NEWS              VA    4:00  721 DIANE CARLONI           19 F USAFA                     CO    2:00  212 STEPHAN CASSIDY         33 M BRANDON                   FL    2:00 1141 CHRISTOPHER CHAPPELL    44 M KISSIMMEE                 FL    2:00  461 FRANKLIN CHAVARRIA      36 M MIAMI                     FL    6:00  964 ROBERT COLTMAN          24 M GAINESVILLE               FL    4:00  319 PATRICK CONNOR          38 M CHICAGO                   IL    2:00   66 CHARLES COOLEY          34 M CANTON                    GA    8:00   67 MARK CORLEY             34 M CEDAR FALLS               IA    2:00  727 CONNIE CORSON           48 F NEW ORLEANS               LA    4:00   70 GLENN COTTRILL          33 M PANAMA CITY               FL    2:00  533 SEAN DINGESS            27 M RALEIGH                   NC    2:00  535 CHARLES DUKE            29 M CHARLESTON                SC    6:00  538 JAMES DWANE             29 M CHARLOTTE                 NC    2:00  851 KRISSY FERRY            33 F WEST PALM BCH             FL    2:00   88 CHRISTOPHER FRANK       31 M CHATTANOOGA               TN    2:00  334 DAVE GARRETT            39 M LYNN HAVEN                FL    2:00 1173 PHIL GATES              41 M CHATTANOOGA               TN    2:00 1511 STEVE GAUDING              M ORLANDO                   FL    2:00   96 LARRY GIDDENS           32 M LAKELAND                  FL    2:00  545 SCOTT GREEN             28 M MORGAN CITY               LA   10:00  627 WESLEY GRISHAM          26 M BATON ROUGE               LA    2:00  756 SHANA GRITSAVAGE        20 F ANNAPOLIS                 MD    2:00 1046 ROBERT HALL             23 M P C BEACH                 FL    2:00  454 EDDIE HENSLEY           36 M FROSTPROOF                FL    4:00  452 SCOTT HILBURN           37 M ATLANTA                   GA    8:00  351 BILL HINTZE             36 M ATLANTA                   GA    6:00  111 CHARLES HORTON          34 M PACE                      FL    2:00  357 ALLEN HURD              27 M LITHONIA                  GA    2:00  553 KEITH HUSTON            27 M RICHMOND                  VA    8:00 1199 RICHARD HYRE            49 M FORT WORTH                TX    2:00  773 PEGGY JOHNSON           23 F GAINESVILLE               FL    2:00  362 ROB KIMBROUGH           37 M MILTON                    FL    2:00  563 WILLIAM KLARER          27 M PARKER                    FL    4:00  995 JEFF KRONE              20 M ANNAPOLIS                 MD    4:00 1212 AL LAMONTAGNE           52 M SIGNAL MOUNTAIN           TN    2:00  781 JANA LANDRY             42 F HOUSTON                   TX    4:00  567 DAVE LARSEN             25 M PORTLAND                  TX    2:00  225 JAMES LEFEBURE          32 M KENNESAW                  GA    2:00  126 GUY LEMIRE              32 M FAYETTEVILLE              NC    4:00  127 LARRY LENHART           32 M RICHMOND                  VA    2:00  128 LANCE LEOPOLD           33 M GREENVILLE                SC    2:00  370 SALVADOR LOPEZ          37 M MEXICO CITY               DF    2:00  372 PAT MACLEOD             36 M DUNWOODY                  GA    2:00  376 GEORGE MAYFORTH JR.     36 M NEPTUNE BEACH             FL    2:00  379 JAMES GREGORY MCDONALD  36 M MONTGOMERY                AL    2:00 1551 ERIN MCGUIRE                 LYNN HAVEN                FL    2:00  578 SCOTT MCLEAN            26 M DEATSVILLE                AL    2:00  579 KARIM MELLA             28 M FAYETVILLE                NC    2:00  580 DAVID MENTELL           28 M PENSACOLA                 FL    2:00  142 JOSEPH MEYERS           30 M RUSTON                    LA    2:00 1237 DAVID MINKOFF           47 M CLEARWATER                FL    2:00  582 BARRY MISSNER           28 M CHICAGO                   IL    2:00  148 DON MURPHY              34 M BOWLING GREEN             KY    4:00  798 LINDA NEARY             32 F JUPITER                   FL    2:00 1326 THOMAS NOBLE, JR.       43 M GRETNA                    LA    2:00  151 RICH ODASH              33 M FRIDLEY                   MN    2:00  590 JOSEPH OSTROWSKI        26 M FORT EUSTIS               VA    2:00  155 GREGORY PORTER          34 M GAINESVILLE               FL    2:00  644 JOHN POULSON            28 M MARIAM                    FL    2:00 1423 WALLACE RANDELL         42 M TALLAHASSEE               FL    2:00  161 CHRIS REILLY            30 M AUGUSTA                   GA    2:00  164 GREGG ROGERS            31 M RINGGOLD                  GA    2:00  599 JUSTIN ROMAN            26 M SARASOTA                  FL    2:00  635 MICHAEL ROTHERMEL       29 M PANAMA CITY               FL    2:00  177 MARIO SOUZA             32 M RUTHERFORD                NJ    2:00  182 JOHN SZALINSKI          32 M PITTSBURGH                PA    2:00  615 GARY TAYLOR             26 M LYNCHBURG                 VA    2:00  617 TIMOTHY TOBIK           29 M FT. WALTON BEACH          FL    2:00  827 JO ANN TOMLINSON        25 F OCALA                     FL    2:00 1023 CARSON UTECH            18 M MARIETTA                  GA    2:00  427 DANNY WALKER            38 M ATLANTA                   GA    2:00  833 ERIN WELLER             31 F SPRINGFIELD               IL    2:00  193 TIM WILLIAMS            34 M LITTLETON                 CO    2:00  460 RUDY WILSON             39 M PENSACOLA                 FL    2:00 1030 MICHAEL WISECUP         21 M ANNAPOLIS                 MD    2:00  433 JOHN WOODRUFF           35 M ST PETERSBURG             FL    2:00  194 DARRELL WRIGHT          34 M PALM BAY                  FL    2:00  201 CHARLES WYZARD          32 M PANAMA CITY               FL    2:00    5/11/1996  5:36PM

Response:

Question:

I guess I missed the message that you had "overdosed" on fluids–except on the bike–and had added little in the way of electolytes to your system. Anyway, glad you got it figured out…and gave the rest of us further reason to be concerned with what we are drinking as well as how much. R.S.T. to the rescue again! –Lee Crumbaugh, Tri’ed ‘n True

Response:

Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) I guess I missed the message that you had "overdosed" on fluids–except on the bike–and had added little in the way of electolytes to your system. Anyway, glad you got it figured out…and gave the rest of us further reason to be concerned with what we are drinking as well as how much. R.S.T. to the rescue again! –Lee Crumbaugh, Tri’ed ‘n True

Response:

[stuff deleted] I think I diluted the electrolyte content of my blood to dangerously low levels.   Noakes’ reports that after a recent Ultra (Comrades), almost half of those   who required hospitalization suffered from hyponatremia.  Three came close to death.  Most were not elite,  

The famous Julie-Moss crawl at the Ironman in 1982 was in large part due to the dizziness and disorientation of hyponatremia.  Gatorade is the IM sponsor for a good reason.  Official Ironman rules also have since made crawling "illegal"… a realization of how dangerous hyponatremia can be.

Response:

Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd. Yesterday I completed my first triathlon, which was Olympic distance in 100 degree weather. Although I felt "normal" during the race, I crashed afterward. Extremely nauseous, hot, disoriented, I tried to hang out in the food area, but eventually had to pack it in.  For the next 6 hours I felt like I had the worst hangover/flu symptoms of my life:

….[stuff deleted] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What happened to you was definitely *not* normal.  Besides the color of your urine question posed by Hummingbird, I’ll add mine:  How much did you urinate and when?  If you truly were hydrated, you would have been in the port-a-potty line before the race, you would have had to urinate on the swim (preferably not in your wetsuit), and so on.  And the port-a-potty would have beckoned after the race.  I’ll bet you were not properly hydrated–despite your belief that you were–and didn’t have to urinate after the race at all, and when you did your urine was yellow (a bad sign). I agree that a sports drink will help.  But in any case in hot weather you ought to keep forcing down even more liquids, especially in the day and the morning  before the race and in the transition area.  You also ought to try to drink two bottles on the ride.  It sounds like you drank as much as you could on the run–but by then it was too late.  (I assume you also drank after the run, which is important.) We had a young high school football player in our area just lose his liver because of becoming dehydrated and overheating:  His symptoms leading up to the irrevoccable liver damage sounded a lot like yours.  I’m not a medical person, but I have read enough to know that you are dealing with danger when you put yourself into a state like you experienced. Drink up!  Again and again!  (Sorry, non alcoholic and non caffeinated only.) –Lee Crumbaugh, Tri’ed ‘n True

Well, since I was able to get at least three people interested in my plight, I will subject the net at large to more ever more personal info.  I usually drink (and pee) a lot: 4-10 liters of fluid intake, 4-8 significant trips to the bathroom during the day, plus once in the middle of the night.  My urine is usually a very pale yellow to clear.  In addition to extra hydration the day before the race, I drank about 2 liters of water prior to the race, with a trip to the porta potty and one jettison during the swim (no wetsuit, thanks).   My only electrolyte intake was 1 liter of gatorade downed in transition before the bike.  1 20oz bottle of water on the bike did leave me a little under-hydrated for about 15 minutes, but I took on another liter or so of water in transition to run, and about a dozen cups of water on the run.  Because I was near the end, most of the Gatorade and UltraFuel was gone from the water stops and the finish, so I drank water, plus a few sodas in the tent.  So, my total intake for the day by the time I headed home was probably 5-7 liters in 5 hours, with 4+ taken during the 3.25 hours spent racing. After the race, my urine was pale yellow, approximately the same "paleness?" as usual, with a slightly more beige hue I associate with a hard workout.  I did not urinate very much for the next few hours, but as I said, I was 8 lbs over my usual weight due to extra fluid intake.  By the next morning I was 7 lbs under, so I guess I peed plenty to shed 15 lbs in 18 hours. Although I think I may have been temporarily under-hydrated at the end of the bike…I think I more than made up for it afterward.  I   went to Noakes’ book to look up Hummingbird’s guess of hyponatremia and the description really seemed to hit home.  I think I diluted the electrolyte content of my blood to dangerously low levels.  Noakes’ reports that after a recent Ultra (Comrades), almost half of those who required hospitalization suffered from hyponatremia.  Three came close to death.  Most were not elite, but more toward the slow end (like me), so they had enough time to take on more fluid than they should have. I guess the moral is that there is more than one way to kill yourself. Noakes suggests intake of 500ml/hour for most folks, and I was well over double that.  I am 6′4" and weigh 185 (another risk factor for heat-related injury), but I will try to keep my fluid intake more steady at 500-700ml per hour from now on.  And the next time I am racing and the heat index climbs over 105 degrees, maybe I will just stop and find some air conditioning. Thanks for your help, everyone…I am little more educated and a little less scared now.

Response:

Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Organization: Legend Communications What happened to you was definitely *not* normal.  Besides the color of your urine question posed by Hummingbird, I’ll add mine:  How much did you urinate and when?  If you truly were hydrated, you would have been in the port-a-potty line before the race, you would have had to urinate on the swim (preferably not in your wetsuit), and so on.  And the port-a-potty would have beckoned after the race.  I’ll bet you were not properly hydrated–despite your belief that you were–and didn’t have to urinate after the race at all, and when you did your urine was yellow (a bad sign).

I don’t think that you have to be urinating constantly to be well hydrated. I think you are a little over hydrated if you are peeing before the race during the race and right after. When I’ve done races, yeah I’ve needed to pee before hand but never to the extent that you’ve needed. However, perhaps it just hits me later or I don’t work as hard as you and therefore I don’t need the same amount of liquid. Karl

Response:

Yesterday I completed my first triathlon, which was Olympic distance in 100 degree weather. Although I felt "normal" during the race, I crashed afterward. Extremely nauseous, hot, disoriented, I tried to hang out in the food area, but eventually had to pack it in.  For the next 6 hours I felt like I had the worst hangover/flu symptoms of my life:

….[stuff deleted] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What happened to you was definitely *not* normal.  Besides the color of your urine question posed by Hummingbird, I’ll add mine:  How much did you urinate and when?  If you truly were hydrated, you would have been in the port-a-potty line before the race, you would have had to urinate on the swim (preferably not in your wetsuit), and so on.  And the port-a-potty would have beckoned after the race.  I’ll bet you were not properly hydrated–despite your belief that you were–and didn’t have to urinate after the race at all, and when you did your urine was yellow (a bad sign). I agree that a sports drink will help.  But in any case in hot weather you ought to keep forcing down even more liquids, especially in the day and the morning  before the race and in the transition area.  You also ought to try to drink two bottles on the ride.  It sounds like you drank as much as you could on the run–but by then it was too late.  (I assume you also drank after the run, which is important.) We had a young high school football player in our area just lose his liver because of becoming dehydrated and overheating:  His symptoms leading up to the irrevoccable liver damage sounded a lot like yours.  I’m not a medical person, but I have read enough to know that you are dealing with danger when you put yourself into a state like you experienced. Drink up!  Again and again!  (Sorry, non alcoholic and non caffeinated only.) –Lee Crumbaugh, Tri’ed ‘n True

Well, since I was able to get at least three people interested in my plight, I will subject the net at large to more ever more personal info.  I usually drink (and pee) a lot: 4-10 liters of fluid intake, 4-8 significant trips to the bathroom during the day, plus once in the middle of the night.  My urine is usually a very pale yellow to clear.  In addition to extra hydration the day before the race, I drank about 2 liters of water prior to the race, with a trip to the porta potty and one jettison during the swim (no wetsuit, thanks).   My only electrolyte intake was 1 liter of gatorade downed in transition before the bike.  1 20oz bottle of water on the bike did leave me a little under-hydrated for about 15 minutes, but I took on another liter or so of water in transition to run, and about a dozen cups of water on the run.  Because I was near the end, most of the Gatorade and UltraFuel was gone from the water stops and the finish, so I drank water, plus a few sodas in the tent.  So, my total intake for the day by the time I headed home was probably 5-7 liters in 5 hours, with 4+ taken during the 3.25 hours spent racing. After the race, my urine was pale yellow, approximately the same "paleness?" as usual, with a slightly more beige hue I associate with a hard workout.  I did not urinate very much for the next few hours, but as I said, I was 8 lbs over my usual weight due to extra fluid intake.  By the next morning I was 7 lbs under, so I guess I peed plenty to shed 15 lbs in 18 hours. Although I think I may have been temporarily under-hydrated at the end of the bike…I think I more than made up for it afterward.  I   went to Noakes’ book to look up Hummingbird’s guess of hyponatremia and the description really seemed to hit home.  I think I diluted the electrolyte content of my blood to dangerously low levels.  Noakes’ reports that after a recent Ultra (Comrades), almost half of those who required hospitalization suffered from hyponatremia.  Three came close to death.  Most were not elite, but more toward the slow end (like me), so they had enough time to take on more fluid than they should have. I guess the moral is that there is more than one way to kill yourself. Noakes suggests intake of 500ml/hour for most folks, and I was well over double that.  I am 6′4" and weigh 185 (another risk factor for heat-related injury), but I will try to keep my fluid intake more steady at 500-700ml per hour from now on.  And the next time I am racing and the heat index climbs over 105 degrees, maybe I will just stop and find some air conditioning. Thanks for your help, everyone…I am little more educated and a little less scared now.

Response:

Yesterday I completed my first triathlon, which was Olympic distance in 100 degree weather. I drank a lot the day before, just before the swim and during transition, but I only had one water bottle on my bike, which I drained at about mile 18.  I took on 3-4 cups at each of the 5 water stops on the 10K run, and drank a lot after the race. Although I felt "normal" during the race, I crashed afterward. Extremely nauseous, hot, disoriented, I tried to hang out in the food area, but eventually had to pack it in.  For the next 6 hours I felt like I had the worst hangover/flu symptoms of my life:

<nausea, pounding headache, and a feeling that poison was coursing through my blood oblivious to the efforts of my liver and kidneys to clean it.  I snapped out of it around 6 PM, but until then it was kind of scary and makes me wonder if I have the ability to push myself past the danger point without being aware of it.  Or maybe I just drank too much: I weighed 10 pounds more than usual when I got home from the race yesterday, and 5 pounds less than usual this morning.  A dieter’s dream: lose 15 pounds in 18 hours! Whaddya think?  Can you run a safe race, take plenty of water, keep your heart rate reasonable and still be setting yourself up for hours of misery because you went too hard?  Can you drink too much?  Or is my experience normal and post-race recovery a dirty little secret of triathlon addiction?

What happened to you was definitely *not* normal.  Besides the color of your urine question posed by Hummingbird, I’ll add mine:  How much did you urinate and when?  If you truly were hydrated, you would have been in the port-a-potty line before the race, you would have had to urinate on the swim (preferably not in your wetsuit), and so on.  And the port-a-potty would have beckoned after the race.  I’ll bet you were not properly hydrated–despite your belief that you were–and didn’t have to urinate after the race at all, and when you did your urine was yellow (a bad sign). I agree that a sports drink will help.  But in any case in hot weather you ought to keep forcing down even more liquids, especially in the day and the morning  before the race and in the transition area.  You also ought to try to drink two bottles on the ride.  It sounds like you drank as much as you could on the run–but by then it was too late.  (I assume you also drank after the run, which is important.) We had a young high school football player in our area just lose his liver because of becoming dehydrated and overheating:  His symptoms leading up to the irrevoccable liver damage sounded a lot like yours.  I’m not a medical person, but I have read enough to know that you are dealing with danger when you put yourself into a state like you experienced. Drink up!  Again and again!  (Sorry, non alcoholic and non caffeinated only.) –Lee Crumbaugh, Tri’ed ‘n True

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What happened to you was definitely *not* normal.  Besides the color of your urine question posed by Hummingbird, I’ll add mine:  How much did you urinate and when?  If you truly were hydrated, you would have been in the port-a-potty line before the race, you would have had to urinate on the swim (preferably not in your wetsuit), and so on.  And the port-a-potty would have beckoned after the race.  I’ll bet you were not properly hydrated–despite your belief that you were–and didn’t have to urinate after the race at all, and when you did your urine was yellow (a bad sign).

I don’t think that you have to be urinating constantly to be well hydrated. I think you are a little over hydrated if you are peeing before the race during the race and right after. When I’ve done races, yeah I’ve needed to pee before hand but never to the extent that you’ve needed. However, perhaps it just hits me later or I don’t work as hard as you and therefore I don’t need the same amount of liquid. Karl

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James, my girlfriend participated at the Euroman in Zuerich two weeks ago. The weather was also hot (probably 90-95), and she pushed hard on the Ironman distance. After the race she didn’t feel well (contrary to her experiences in previous races). 45 minutes after the race she collapsed and it took her several hours in hospital to regain consciousness. She was diagnosed with dehydration and (extreme) hyponatriaemia. The latter means she had lost too much electrolyts (especially sodium) by sweating, without refilling them. She must have drunk about 20 quarts of fluids while racing, of which about 6 quarts of isotonic stuff. But on the run she only took water and coke, which don’t provide enough electrolyts. It might even be that she had drunken too much, since the water then thins out even more of the electrolyts. Well, she’s recovered completely by now and learned her lesson. It might very well be, that you suffered the same symptoms after your race, but were lucky enough not to collapse and finally after hours regulated your electrolyts back to normal. Rolf PS: the conditions at the Euroman made only 60 percent of the participants finish the race, and the happy end is, that my girlfriend qualified for Hawaii with her performance. —

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Hi James- Souds to me like the heat got to you and although you took in fluids, the headache afterwards tells me you were a bit dehydrated ( or alot dehydrated!)  Excuse the personal question-but was the color of your urine extremely yellow post-race?  Had you been training in similar conditions? Next time ( and there will be a next time because you will forget how badly you felt and you are already planning your next race-strategy right now aren’t you??) after the race, no matter how bad drink/food looks to you try to get some elctrolytes into your system along with some carbos and I guarantee you’ll recover much faster.  Maybe train with some sports drink also as the extremem conditions caused you to need something more than water-and hey Congatulations!!!  Seeyou at the races!  Cheryl

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   Yesterday I completed my first triathlon, which was Olympic distance in 100 degree weather.  My time of 3:16 was much better than I had anticipated, but I did not really feel I was pushing terribly hard during the race.  I drank a lot the day before, just before the swim and during transition, but I only had one water bottle on my bike, which I drained at about mile 18.  I took on 3-4 cups at each of the 5 water stops on the 10K run, and drank a lot after the race.    Although I felt "normal" during the race, I crashed afterward. Extremely nauseous, hot, disoriented, I tried to hang out in the food area, but eventually had to pack it in.  For the next 6 hours I felt like I had the worst hangover/flu symptoms of my life: nausea, pounding headache, and a feeling that poison was coursing through my blood oblivious to the efforts of my liver and kidneys to clean it.  I snapped out of it around 6 PM, but until then it was kind of scary and makes me wonder if I have the ability to push myself past the danger point without being aware of it.  Or maybe I just drank too much: I weighed 10 pounds more than usual when I got home from the race yesterday, and 5 pounds less than usual this morning.  A dieter’s dream: lose 15 pounds in 18 hours!    Whaddya think?  Can you run a safe race, take plenty of water, keep your heart rate reasonable and still be setting yourself up for hours of misery because you went too hard?  Can you drink too much?  Or is my experience normal and post-race recovery a dirty little secret of triathlon addiction?

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe Beer, English coach and Ironman triathlete, has developed a quick, reliable, low stress method to detect Overtraining using CompuTrainer. Joe is using the "Ramp Test" with great success with Eric Harr, top ranking rookie triathlete on the 1994 Pro Tour.  It has also been tested by CompuTrainer training advisor and coach Joe Friel (both on himself and his son, Dirk, a pro bike racer) who has found it also to be highly reliable.  An article about the test will appear in the June issue of Inside Triathlon magazine. The "Ramp Test" is a simple, sub-maximal test that takes less than 15 minutes.  It involves riding CompuTrainer in the Ergometer mode for 3 minutes each at 100 watts, 150 watts, 200 watts, and 250 watts and recording  the heartrate at each load level.  The test is conducted at least once a week or more often if desired.  If the heartrates are stable or declining, your training schedule can be maintained as planned.  If the heartrates increase, overtraining is indicated and more recovery is needed. A Ramp Test protocol is being added to the CompuTrainer Workout Manual which already contains a Conconi Test, Power Test, Aerobic Time Trial Test plus 19 different workouts. For a free video describing CompuTrainer’s features, e-mail your request

You can’t be serious detecting overtraining is way more complicated than a simple submaximal step test.  Stop trying to find a simple solution to a problem which cause hasn’t even been found out yet.

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Joe Beer, English coach and Ironman triathlete, has developed a quick, reliable, low stress method to detect Overtraining using CompuTrainer. Joe is using the "Ramp Test" with great success with Eric Harr, top ranking rookie triathlete on the 1994 Pro Tour.  It has also been tested by CompuTrainer training advisor and coach Joe Friel (both on himself and his son, Dirk, a pro bike racer) who has found it also to be highly reliable.  An article about the test will appear in the June issue of Inside Triathlon magazine. The "Ramp Test" is a simple, sub-maximal test that takes less than 15 minutes.  It involves riding CompuTrainer in the Ergometer mode for 3 minutes each at 100 watts, 150 watts, 200 watts, and 250 watts and recording  the heartrate at each load level.  The test is conducted at least once a week or more often if desired.  If the heartrates are stable or declining, your training schedule can be maintained as planned.  If the heartrates increase, overtraining is indicated and more recovery is needed. A Ramp Test protocol is being added to the CompuTrainer Workout Manual which already contains a Conconi Test, Power Test, Aerobic Time Trial Test plus 19 different workouts. For a free video describing CompuTrainer’s features, e-mail your request

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Question:

Its about time to replace my stock Shimano HG-90 chain.  Has anyone out there had any experience with the Regina hollow pin chain?  How long has it lasted? How much weight was actually saved over conventional? Thanks in advance Mike Randow

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Its about time to replace my stock Shimano HG-90 chain.  Has anyone out there had any experience with the Regina hollow pin chain?  How long has it lasted? How much weight was actually saved over conventional?

-Nothing significant in weight savings. (contrary to popular opinion you do not have to carry your bike) -The chain is too wide for 8speed. -Regina’’s quality control is not very good. Their freewheels arent’around here anymore. -My tip is to buy a SEDISPORT or SACHS R-80 chain instead. they beat HG90. BITUMEN      (“““`)   ( (o) (o) )  (     .     )   ( |-__-|  )    (       ) RULES O.K.

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: Its about time to replace my stock Shimano HG-90 chain.  Has anyone out : there had any experience with the Regina hollow pin chain?  How long has : it lasted? How much weight was actually saved over conventional? : Thanks in advance : Mike Randow —— My opinion is to the contrary of others. I’ve had 4 Regina SL’s in 3 years of racing. Firstly, if you’re a gram-pincher, you save about 100g, which translates to almost .25lbs. Save 100g here, 100g there, and your bike is suddenly a pound or so lighter…very noticable up hills (what we have here in N. Florida). Secondly, I’ve never had a problem with the strength of the Regina, but then again, I’m a typical skinny triathlete (do those exist anymore?) at 150lbs. Anyway, the other poster was right when he said they wouldn’t work with 8spd. Actually, I did get mine to work with my Shim. 8spd rear, but it was so noisy it drove me nuts! Now I use the Regina for races and a KMG Super-Shuttle (never heard of it before, but damn! what a great chain!) for training. Jonathan Acey Albert University of Florida

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Its about time to replace my stock Shimano HG-90 chain.  Has anyone out : there had any experience with the Regina hollow pin chain?  How long has : it lasted? How much weight was actually saved over conventional? : Thanks in advance : Mike Randow —— My opinion is to the contrary of others. I’ve had 4 Regina SL’s in 3 years of racing. Firstly, if you’re a gram-pincher, you save about 100g, which translates to almost .25lbs. Save 100g here, 100g there, and your bike is suddenly a pound or so lighter…very noticable up hills (what we have here in N. Florida). Secondly, I’ve never had a problem with the strength of the Regina, but then again, I’m a typical skinny triathlete (do those exist anymore?) at 150lbs. Anyway, the other poster was right when he said they wouldn’t work with 8spd. Actually, I did get mine to work with my Shim. 8spd rear, but it was so noisy it drove me nuts! Now I use the Regina for races and a KMG Super-Shuttle (never heard of it before, but damn! what a great chain!) for training. Jonathan Acey Albert University of Florida

4 chains in 3 years of racing, seems you go through them like I go through Powerbars, I’m still using the Shimano HG chain that came with my bike two years ago. I weight about 175 lbs. I’d rather have 100gr more to carry and have a reliable chain. I never broke a chain in 5 years of triathlon, and i certainly don’t want that to happen ever, especially in a race or a long training ride when you’re 100km from home! Joachim Heinle

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: : Its about time to replace my stock Shimano HG-90 chain.  Has anyone out : : there had any experience with the Regina hollow pin chain?  How long has : : it lasted? How much weight was actually saved over conventional? : : Thanks in advance : : Mike Randow : —— My opinion is to the contrary of others. I’ve had 4 Regina SL’s : in 3 years of racing. Firstly, if you’re a gram-pincher, you save about : 100g, which translates to almost .25lbs. Save 100g here, 100g there, and : your bike is suddenly a pound or so lighter…very noticable up hills : (what we have here in N. Florida). Secondly, I’ve never had a problem : with the strength of the Regina, but then again, I’m a typical skinny : triathlete (do those exist anymore?) at 150lbs. Anyway, the other poster : was right when he said they wouldn’t work with 8spd. Actually, I did get : mine to work with my Shim. 8spd rear, but it was so noisy it drove me : nuts! Now I use the Regina for races and a KMG Super-Shuttle (never heard : of it before, but damn! what a great chain!) for training. : Jonathan Acey Albert : University of Florida : 4 chains in 3 years of racing, seems you go through them like I go through : Powerbars, I’m still using the Shimano HG chain that came with my bike : two years ago. I weight about 175 lbs. I’d rather have 100gr more to carry : and have a reliable chain. I never broke a chain in 5 years of triathlon, : and i certainly don’t want that to happen ever, especially in a race or a : long training ride when you’re 100km from home! : Joachim Heinle         Actually, I do go through chains quiclky, largely because I never         want to have equipment as an excuse.. "well, if my chain hadn’t         broken…" Preventive maintenance is a lesson I learned during many         a training ride when I started cycling. Also, I have an alloy         freewheel on my disc, It’s good to have new or very clean chains         when using these. Like I said, I’m a gram pincher (and only         150-155lbs…about 145 racing weight). Jonathan Acey Albert University of Florida

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I am looking to buy some Scott RCO aerobars, used of new, at a good price.  Also, I’ve got some Profile ‘Breeze’ aerobars to sell.  THey’re in great shape, only ridden 200 miles.  I want the Scott bars ‘cuz the profile’s are too short for me, and I just found out that it’s messing up my aero position.  Willing to trade Profiles for Scott’s also, if interested.                                           Scott Wilson

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4 chains in 3 years of racing, seems you go through them like I go through Powerbars, I’m still using the Shimano HG chain that came with my bike two years ago. I weight about 175 lbs. I’d rather have 100gr more to carry and have a reliable chain. I never broke a chain in 5 years of triathlon, and i certainly don’t want that to happen ever, especially in a race or a long training ride when you’re 100km from home!

Reliable chain? either you don’t ride very often, or your chain is ready to bust! I change my chain evry 1000 miles. If I don’t my shifting goes to the dogs. Especially with the funky shifting set-ups that triathletes like to use. I find that the best chai ns for price, weight, duablity and compadiblity with all drive trains are either DID super Shift (the makers of shimano hyperglide chains, basically the same except with one side of the chain not camfered- weight savings, no loss in performance) and Sedis – I perfer Sedis because i have had no problems with them at all even in the rigors of new england ‘cross an dthe muddy mountian biking, if these chains can hold up in that type of conditions than I am sure than can hold up to any conditins! they also don’ t have those stupid replacable link pins shimano uses! As for regina go for it, everything they make is relable especially there freewheels (which by the way are incredibly light an dreally sweet!) for the money you are going to pay for a regina chain you are going to get a good chain, that is why they are so expensive-they have to be to make them light, and strong…also dont use those alloy derailier pullies, they are hevier, cause more friction, an d hinder shifter. Shimano Dura-Ace pullies are much bett er… they cost less than a regina chain, and wont put any unnecisary grinding onto a chain… look at the pro peleton, what do they use, especilly watch tony romiger, he usese alot of the same equipment trialthetes like, and he has to rid ehisbike hard da y, after day in the tours, and classics of europe. they know what works and what doesn’t! —ARR—

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