Question:

Hello group, here is a newbie with a question. I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh) The last week though I had the flue and fever and coughs and all kind of signs I’ve got a nasty bug. Yesterday, I started feeling a little bit better, so I tried for my first run in two weeks. My legs felt awfully weak, but that was not the worst. After about ten minutes or one km, my bronchi cramped like crazy. I could barely breathe, coughed all the time, and my breath sounded more like I had a whistle in the throat. Of course I take my medicine. I won’t try to run until Sunday, but then there is the big question: should I try to participate? What would happen if I don’t? I would ever ask myself if I could have done it, blame me for being a chicken. I would not find out how it is to participate in a race. What would happen if I do? I get cough cramps again and have to walk four of the five km and get a time of about one hour and scare my fellow runners and scare myself and make some really bad experience with a race? Or maybe I feel better on Sunday and have a wonderful race (much over 35 min though)? Is there an exercise to relax the bronchi? If I run, I will carry my inhalation device with me, just to be on the safe side. What would you do? Would you race? Elisabeth

Response:

I’d wait- there will be other races.  And your memory of your first race should be much better than what you’d have if you ran right now.  You don’t have enough of a base yet to keep fit over a week + of not running. BTW- I received the same advice about my first half-marathon and ignored it. I ran with the flu, shin splints and new shoes.  Needless to say, even though I finished (2:30 or so), it sucked big time and has made me shy away from further half+ distances. You’ve got nothing to lose by waiting and everything to lose by racing. Just my 2 cents, though. Best of Luck on a Speedy Recovery, Brian

: Hello group, : : here is a newbie with a question. : I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first : race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run : under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh) : : The last week though I had the flue and fever and coughs and all kind : of signs I’ve got a nasty bug. : : Yesterday, I started feeling a little bit better, so I tried for my : first run in two weeks. My legs felt awfully weak, but that was not : the worst. After about ten minutes or one km, my bronchi cramped like : crazy. I could barely breathe, coughed all the time, and my breath : sounded more like I had a whistle in the throat. : : Of course I take my medicine. : : I won’t try to run until Sunday, but then there is the big question: : should I try to participate? : : What would happen if I don’t? I would ever ask myself if I could have : done it, blame me for being a chicken. I would not find out how it is : to participate in a race. : : What would happen if I do? I get cough cramps again and have to walk : four of the five km and get a time of about one hour and scare my : fellow runners and scare myself and make some really bad experience : with a race? : : Or maybe I feel better on Sunday and have a wonderful race (much over : 35 min though)? : : Is there an exercise to relax the bronchi? If I run, I will carry my : inhalation device with me, just to be on the safe side. : : What would you do? Would you race? : : Elisabeth

Response:

I agree with Brian… I think skipping this 5K is not really as big a tragedy as you think it might be… Road races are pretty plentiful and 5Ks in particular seem common… I’m not sure where you live, but surely you can register for another one in the very near term… You’ve only been running since March… Sounds like you are putting for more pressure on yourself than you need to.  Just relax and enjoy it. -Chazzer

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, here is a newbie with a question. I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh) The last week though I had the flue and fever and coughs and all kind of signs I’ve got a nasty bug. Yesterday, I started feeling a little bit better, so I tried for my first run in two weeks. My legs felt awfully weak, but that was not the worst. After about ten minutes or one km, my bronchi cramped like crazy. I could barely breathe, coughed all the time, and my breath sounded more like I had a whistle in the throat. Of course I take my medicine. I won’t try to run until Sunday, but then there is the big question: should I try to participate? What would happen if I don’t? I would ever ask myself if I could have done it, blame me for being a chicken. I would not find out how it is to participate in a race. What would happen if I do? I get cough cramps again and have to walk four of the five km and get a time of about one hour and scare my fellow runners and scare myself and make some really bad experience with a race? Or maybe I feel better on Sunday and have a wonderful race (much over 35 min though)? Is there an exercise to relax the bronchi? If I run, I will carry my inhalation device with me, just to be on the safe side. What would you do? Would you race? Elisabeth

Response:

Hello group, here is a newbie with a question. I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh)

Not laughing at all. I’m damm sure I couldn’t have run sub 35 less than 2 months after beginning to run.     <snip What would you do? Would you race?

My newbie answer would be no. If I have a lay-off – especially for illness – then my first day back is always hard and slow so if I was in your shoes I know I wouldn’t do myself justice. Of course, you may be different  so if you feel great on Sunday then run for pleasure and if you’re in ‘greyhound’ mode you’ll know that a layoff doesn’t affect you too much – which will be something to note for when it happens again.

Response:

Good morning Elisabeth,        I’m in exactly the same position you are right now.  I have both tonsilitis and mononucleosis, as well as three races in a four week span.  I decided to run the first one, and was not pleased at all.  I ended up finishing 15 minutes slower than my expected time, and I felt like crap afterwards.  I’ve been debating whether I should run this next race a week Sunday, but if I’m not feeling any better than I am right now, I’d only disappoint myself more.  I know it’s disappointing to miss a race, but it’s even more disappointing to finish a lot worse than you expected, fell horrible throughout and after your race, and probably increase the time you’ll be sick for.  My advice, through experience, would be to hold off and wait for the next race.  Who knows?  By waiting, you may break 32 minutes in your first race!                                        Sean Chester – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, here is a newbie with a question. I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh) The last week though I had the flue and fever and coughs and all kind of signs I’ve got a nasty bug. Yesterday, I started feeling a little bit better, so I tried for my first run in two weeks. My legs felt awfully weak, but that was not the worst. After about ten minutes or one km, my bronchi cramped like crazy. I could barely breathe, coughed all the time, and my breath sounded more like I had a whistle in the throat. Of course I take my medicine. I won’t try to run until Sunday, but then there is the big question: should I try to participate? What would happen if I don’t? I would ever ask myself if I could have done it, blame me for being a chicken. I would not find out how it is to participate in a race. What would happen if I do? I get cough cramps again and have to walk four of the five km and get a time of about one hour and scare my fellow runners and scare myself and make some really bad experience with a race? Or maybe I feel better on Sunday and have a wonderful race (much over 35 min though)? Is there an exercise to relax the bronchi? If I run, I will carry my inhalation device with me, just to be on the safe side. What would you do? Would you race? Elisabeth

Response:

Hello group, here is a newbie with a question. I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh)

We don’t laugh at newbies because we know they’ll be faster than us by this time next year The last week though I had the flue and fever and coughs and all kind of signs I’ve got a nasty bug. Yesterday, I started feeling a little bit better, so I tried for my first run in two weeks. My legs felt awfully weak, but that was not the worst. After about ten minutes or one km, my bronchi cramped like crazy. I could barely breathe, coughed all the time, and my breath sounded more like I had a whistle in the throat.

Sounds like you’re not fully better yet – more rest days are called for… Of course I take my medicine. I won’t try to run until Sunday, but then there is the big question: should I try to participate?

If you feel completely better by race day I’d go for it – missing a week to 10 days won’t have too much of a negative effect on your fitness level – training while still sick might. What would happen if I don’t? I would ever ask myself if I could have done it, blame me for being a chicken. I would not find out how it is to participate in a race.

Yes you will, you’ll just do the next 5k instead. I normally expect to miss at least one race I’ve entered each year due to injury or illness (this year I already had to pull out of the Twintig van Alphen 20k – *sob*). What would happen if I do? I get cough cramps again and have to walk four of the five km and get a time of about one hour and scare my fellow runners and scare myself and make some really bad experience with a race? Or maybe I feel better on Sunday and have a wonderful race (much over 35 min though)? Is there an exercise to relax the bronchi? If I run, I will carry my inhalation device with me, just to be on the safe side. What would you do? Would you race?

Only if I really felt better… Elisabeth

– Regards, Barry Running & Stuff: http://homepages.go.com/~barry841

Response:

Elisabeth,   Take the race off.  Don’t run a race until you feel comfortable that on that day you can give it your best.  Just keep a good additude about your running, and keep training.  By skipping this race I believe you will be doing yourself a big favor.  There is no need to risk cramping and having to walk the final few k’s, that would be bad for your morale. Skip the race, keep training, and you will have a great race, when you race. Scott Having a postive attitude leads to postive results!!!!!!

Response:

Hello group, here is a newbie with a question. I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh) The last week though I had the flue and fever and coughs and all kind of signs I’ve got a nasty bug.

snip I think you have a very legitimate reason to skip this event. I know where you are coming from though.  It isn’t the fact that there are plenty of 5K’s to enter, it’s the fact that this was a goal, and now you feel like you are slipping?   You went out and tried running before you were 100%, which should tell you that you are motivated, the time just isn’t the best for you.  I bet there are very few runners who have been able to run every single race that they planned to. Set your sights on another, and good luck! Karen

Response:

NO, you should not run with a fever, ever. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, here is a newbie with a question. I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh) The last week though I had the flue and fever and coughs and all kind of signs I’ve got a nasty bug. snip I think you have a very legitimate reason to skip this event. I know where you are coming from though.  It isn’t the fact that there are plenty of 5K’s to enter, it’s the fact that this was a goal, and now you feel like you are slipping?   You went out and tried running before you were 100%, which should tell you that you are motivated, the time just isn’t the best for you.  I bet there are very few runners who have been able to run every single race that they planned to. Set your sights on another, and good luck! Karen

Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, here is a newbie with a question. I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh) The last week though I had the flue and fever and coughs and all kind of signs I’ve got a nasty bug. snip I think you have a very legitimate reason to skip this event. I know where you are coming from though.  It isn’t the fact that there are plenty of 5K’s to enter, it’s the fact that this was a goal, and now you feel like you are slipping?   You went out and tried running before you were 100%, which should tell you that you are motivated, the time just isn’t the best for you.  I bet there are very few runners who have been able to run every single race that they planned to. Set your sights on another, and good luck! Karen

Thank you Karen, and thanks to all the others out there. You helped me here, and I will not race. I will, however, go there and watch what’s happening, just to get aquainted and that I don’t get the feeling I miss too much. Thank you for caring and sharing your experience. Elisabeth

Response:

May be they could use another volunteer?? A good way to meet people and runners. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, here is a newbie with a question. I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh) The last week though I had the flue and fever and coughs and all kind of signs I’ve got a nasty bug. snip I think you have a very legitimate reason to skip this event. I know where you are coming from though.  It isn’t the fact that there are plenty of 5K’s to enter, it’s the fact that this was a goal, and now you feel like you are slipping? You went out and tried running before you were 100%, which should tell you that you are motivated, the time just isn’t the best for you.  I bet there are very few runners who have been able to run every single race that they planned to. Set your sights on another, and good luck! Karen Thank you Karen, and thanks to all the others out there. You helped me here, and I will not race. I will, however, go there and watch what’s happening, just to get aquainted and that I don’t get the feeling I miss too much. Thank you for caring and sharing your experience. Elisabeth

– Regards, Dave I’d love to think that there’s an end just waiting right around the bend, but every turn’s a tunnel.        I descend I’m the running man… Edward Ka Spell and kEvin Key, The Last Man to Fly, 1991

Response:

you should not race ,,,, i did once all it did was aggregate my condition ,,, that is not to say that i would not ,,, some where i think we believe we r super people immune to the laws of this world ,,, every body get your run on clodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello group, here is a newbie with a question. I started running at the begin of March, and I wanted to run my first race this Sunday, April 22nd, a 5k race. I had the intention to run under 35 minutes, which would be pretty fast for me. (Don’t laugh) The last week though I had the flue and fever and coughs and all kind of signs I’ve got a nasty bug. Yesterday, I started feeling a little bit better, so I tried for my first run in two weeks. My legs felt awfully weak, but that was not the worst. After about ten minutes or one km, my bronchi cramped like crazy. I could barely breathe, coughed all the time, and my breath sounded more like I had a whistle in the throat. Of course I take my medicine. I won’t try to run until Sunday, but then there is the big question: should I try to participate? What would happen if I don’t? I would ever ask myself if I could have done it, blame me for being a chicken. I would not find out how it is to participate in a race. What would happen if I do? I get cough cramps again and have to walk four of the five km and get a time of about one hour and scare my fellow runners and scare myself and make some really bad experience with a race? Or maybe I feel better on Sunday and have a wonderful race (much over 35 min though)? Is there an exercise to relax the bronchi? If I run, I will carry my inhalation device with me, just to be on the safe side. What would you do? Would you race? Elisabeth

Response:

Hi Yes. win or lose www.trailmarathon.com so far, this last week. drop a ladder on toe. twisted ankle, blisters everwhere,loss gel at laundry. da shoes are too tight. black and blue. sore back. heard the race elevation to 1100 feet at the end of loop. like maybe 6 hills. rolling the rest. may be the start and finish too. aid station only 1.7 miles. only been hill training 3 weeks.   and I can’t wait for next sunday.:) Godspeed,+47,0,Nlat42.20,Wlong83.3

Response:

Question:

I have some middle to top-of-line stuff in good to very good condition (and some new stuff)

I know of a 10 year old in the Portland area who could really use that bike. He was rding a pretty big bike when I saw him race.  I don’t know his name but will try to find out.  That would be very cool of both of you to help out with this.  I will cover the build up and transportation to Portland from Seattle. I know of a shop owner who would probably help out as well. Marc

Response:

OK….I’m game.  Let’s make sure the frame fits him correctly though…buy maybe allows enough adjustment so he can use it for a while.  I have a quill Look Ergostem that can allow some flexibility on the reach. Anybody else want to contribute? Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have some middle to top-of-line stuff in good to very good condition (and some new stuff) I know of a 10 year old in the Portland area who could really use that bike. He was rding a pretty big bike when I saw him race.  I don’t know his name but will try to find out.  That would be very cool of both of you to help out with this.  I will cover the build up and transportation to Portland from Seattle. I know of a shop owner who would probably help out as well. Marc

Response:

We have a 49cm frame that was built for a Junior triathlete for sponsorship. She has since decided to stick with her swimming. I am prepared to give it away to someone who will do it justice, preferable someone who is either a struggling Junior in your area or a promising "small" athlete in need of a new bike. The frame is currently in transit to San Francisco and can be shipped from there. There are NO strings attached to this offer. The girls parents have reimbursed me for the freight and landing costs so it does not owe me any money. They had also suggested giving it away to another Junior and I thought it a good idea also. Lloyd

Response:

This is very cool of you… I don’t know of any "needy" junior triathletes around the Phx area, but if the junior in question that receives this frame needs some parts to build it up, let me know.  I have some middle to top-of-line stuff in good to very good condition (and some new stuff) to help build it up.  Likewise…no strings attached. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have a 49cm frame that was built for a Junior triathlete for sponsorship. She has since decided to stick with her swimming. I am prepared to give it away to someone who will do it justice, preferable someone who is either a struggling Junior in your area or a promising "small" athlete in need of a new bike. The frame is currently in transit to San Francisco and can be shipped from there. There are NO strings attached to this offer. The girls parents have reimbursed me for the freight and landing costs so it does not owe me any money. They had also suggested giving it away to another Junior and I thought it a good idea also. Lloyd

Response:

Question:

Yes, I did.  But I tend to have little tolerance for derogatory generalities and assumptions based on cultural or national stereotypes.  I realize you have lived in a number of places, but whenever I see comments that "sum" up some stereotypical assumption- Americans can’t live without air conditioning, the Japanese can’t make a decision without a big meeting, all French are rude, the British are snobs, the Malaysians are technically backward- it really pisses me off, because none of it’s true. In fact, many of these cultural stereotypes turn out to be the exact opposite of true.  So I’m sorry for jumping on you, but your statement happened to be the sort that really annoys me, even if you meant it humorously.  The more a stereotype is repeated, the harder it is to overcome it.

I don’t get this. You are conflating statements with other statements. I NEVER said Americans can’t live without air conditioning. Mr. Faure, look below to see what I actually wrote. You wrote the following: If that constituted a design flaw, then our bodies represent a major design flaw because they actually only operate correctly in a very narrow environmental band unless they are artificially sustained (clothes, air conditioning, etc.).

I responed with this: *laugh* Air conditioning?! Boy…some of you folks have lived in comfortable, big America for a tad bit too long.

In what ways does my response imply "Americans can’t live without air conditioning?" It doesn’t imply ANYTHING about the people whom we call Americans. It implies that America, the place, is comfortable (which is a contestable point, but that is NOT the point you’re contesting about). There is a difference between America AND Americans. And in addition, the statement doesn’t say ANYTHING about Americans. It says "some of you folks." In the context of that statement, the "some of you folks" are those who are LIVING in the COUNTRY called U.S.A/America. Never said ANYTHING about Americans. And "some of you folks" implies me too, since I’ve been living in America for a while now. So, I hope this clears things up. I would NEVER be so stupid as to say Americans need air conditioning, or Japanese can’t make up their minds etc. or stereotypes as such. I am an anthropologist after all…There might be other blunders I make, but this is not one of them. Conal — Conal Ho Graduate Student Dept. of Anthropology University of California, Santa Cruz

Response:

Given the wide fluctuation of temperatures and humidities an airplane is expected to operate under, the human body is a massive design flaw if one expects it to operate under a similar range of environmental conditions without artificial help.  A human body in a 200 degree environment needs to be cooled down somehow.  An aircraft trim motor in that’s expected to be run on the ground in a 200 degree environment also needs to be cooled down somehow.  But trim motors don’t have to be operated (other than momentary tests) in 200 degree environments, so there’s no reason to create an artificial means of cooling them down. C. Marin Faure author, Flying A Floatplane

On last thing. I don’t contest your point about the trim motors. I DON’T contest that IT IS NOT a design flaw (notice the usage of those negatives and don’t misinterpret). I really was just contesting the statement that human beings have a very narrow band in which they can operate etc. My contestation really was about that and not about airplanes or airplane design. But that’s okay…I hear what you’re saying about the design thing, Mr. Faure, and agree. Conal — Conal Ho Graduate Student Dept. of Anthropology University of California, Santa Cruz

Response:

On last thing. I don’t contest your point about the trim motors. I DON’T contest that IT IS NOT a design flaw (notice the usage of those negatives and don’t misinterpret). I really was just contesting the statement that human beings have a very narrow band in which they can operate etc. My contestation really was about that and not about airplanes or airplane design. But that’s okay…I hear what you’re saying about the design thing, Mr. Faure, and agree.

If I put you on a desert where the heat hovers close to 200 degrees, and then move you to Minnesota where the temperature is 20 below zero, with nothing but your own body- no clothes, no heat, no air conditioning, etc.- you’re telling me that the human body can adapt just fine?  The body has to maintain an internal temperature of a very narrow range.  The only way it can do this is to artificially heat or cool itself when the external temperatures fall very far outside this range. C. Marin Faure   author, Flying A Floatplane

Response:

I responed with this: *laugh* Air conditioning?! Boy…some of you folks have lived in comfortable, big America for a tad bit too long.

I think your above comment could easily be taken as a snide remark about Americans and air conditioning.  That’s how I read it as well originally, though it didn’t bother me enough to respond (hey, this is Usenet <g). BTW, the smiley is not as effective in the above phrase as it might be otherwise due to the tone (apparent tone even if not intended tone) of the remark — it could easily be interpreted as a condescending smile, not and "I’m only kidding" smile. —                      Written online using slrn 0.9.5.4!                    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

Response:

I don’t get this. You are conflating statements with other statements. I NEVER said Americans can’t live without air conditioning. Mr. Faure, look below to see what I actually wrote.

Your problem, Mr. Ho, which is very common among young people with limited experience, is that you chose to interpret your own words however best suits your purpose at the time.  Regardless of what your actual words were, the implication was that Americans must have their air conditioning to survive.  Survive, in this case, means being comfortable, having status, whatever.  Regardless of how you meant your statement, most people in this country are going to interpret your words as a derrogatory statement about American’s need for luxury, comfort, or whatever. Implication is a far more powerful motive for reaction than actual words. Your own upbringing may have led you to believe what you wrote was not an insult, but to many people, your comment reads as a derrogatory stereotype of Americans.  But as I said, university students, even graduate students, seldom have had enough experience to understand how their words affect people.  So regardless of what you THOUGHT you were saying, that’s not how it appeared when read. Words are like bullets: once they’re out of the gun, you can’t call them back.  Whatever you write and post is going to be interpreted the way the reader sees it.  You can’t come back and say, "Oh, I really didn’t mean that. You’re misinterpreting what I meant."  At this point, your attempted explanation to change the meaning of what you said is irrelevant to me. You spelled out an uninformed, stereotypical statement, and that is how I, at any rate, read it.  Next time, think a bit more about how your words might be interpreted by people outside your limited, university world. C. Marin Faure   author, Flying A Floatplane

Response:

SNIP Just as I suspected–Santa Cruz is some kind of weird foreign enclave, and not part of the USA at all!  ;-)

Leave to UCSC (Banana slugs) and the folks from the People’s Republik of Berkeley to screw everything up!  ;-) Rich

Response:

Geez…I guess Mr. Faure simply didn’t see that emoticon that ended my post. It looks like this

Yes, I did.  But I tend to have little tolerance for derogatory generalities and assumptions based on cultural or national stereotypes.  I realize you have lived in a number of places, but whenever I see comments that "sum" up some stereotypical assumption- Americans can’t live without air conditioning, the Japanese can’t make a decision without a big meeting, all French are rude, the British are snobs, the Malaysians are technically backward- it really pisses me off, because none of it’s true. In fact, many of these cultural stereotypes turn out to be the exact opposite of true.  So I’m sorry for jumping on you, but your statement happened to be the sort that really annoys me, even if you meant it humorously.  The more a stereotype is repeated, the harder it is to overcome it. I was really remarking on your statement "[humans] only operate correctly in a very narrow environmental band unless they are artificially sustained (clothes, air conditioning, etc.)." I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean it that literally, that’s why I wrote my statement with an emoticon. After all, people live without air condition all the time in Ghana. And witness any elite athlete and you’ll be amazed at how versatile the human body really is. Ever seen an ultramarathon (over 26.2 miles) or an ironman triathlon?

I understand what you’re saying here, and I don’t deny that the human body over time can adapt to its environment to a degree.  But there is a limit to what the human body can tolerate.  Take someone from Ghana and put them in Minnesota in the winter and they aren’t going to make it unless they use some artificial means to keep their bodies within the temperature range for survival, which in reality is not very wide.  They’re going to need clothes, heat, whatever.  The peolpe in Ghana dress (or don’t dress) for their weather.  They cannot survive in Minnesota using the same dress or undress they use in Ghana. Now take an airplane component.  An airplane’s environment can go from almost 200 degrees (baking on the ramp in the desert) to many, many degrees below zero at altitude, and within a very short time, minutes after takeoff to be exact.  Components that have to work at both extremes of that temperature range must be designed to do so, not always an easy task.  That’s why components that don’t need to operate much or at all on the ground don’t have to be designed or constructed to operate very long at that end of the environmental envelope. Given the wide fluctuation of temperatures and humidities an airplane is expected to operate under, the human body is a massive design flaw if one expects it to operate under a similar range of environmental conditions without artificial help.  A human body in a 200 degree environment needs to be cooled down somehow.  An aircraft trim motor in that’s expected to be run on the ground in a 200 degree environment also needs to be cooled down somehow.  But trim motors don’t have to be operated (other than momentary tests) in 200 degree environments, so there’s no reason to create an artificial means of cooling them down. C. Marin Faure   author, Flying A Floatplane

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marin If that constituted a design flaw, then our bodies represent a major design flaw because they actually only operate correctly in a very narrow environmental band unless they are artificially sustained (clothes, air conditioning, etc.). *laugh* Air conditioning?! Boy…some of you folks have lived in comfortable, big America for a tad bit too long. Conal — Conal Ho Graduate Student Dept. of Anthropology University of California, Santa Cruz

Just as I suspected–Santa Cruz is some kind of weird foreign enclave, and not part of the USA at all!  ;-) Before you buy.

Response:

It’s not just weight either. Physical packaging also plays a role. Electric motors used on stab trim (where it’s not hydraulic),or alternate flaps,ram air doors,APU starting motors and others are very powerful for their size and thus generate more heat than a more lightly stressed motor. Not necessarily light–I can tell you that!,but weight is saved wherever possible. Duty cycles are figured in to the equation of normal use.  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Marin If that constituted a design flaw, then our bodies represent a major design flaw because they actually only operate correctly in a very narrow environmental band unless they are artificially sustained (clothes, air conditioning, etc.). *laugh* Air conditioning?! Boy…some of you folks have lived in comfortable, big America for a tad bit too long. Conal — Conal Ho Graduate Student Dept. of Anthropology University of California, Santa Cruz Just as I suspected–Santa Cruz is some kind of weird foreign enclave, and not part of the USA at all!  ;-) Before you buy.

True..Santa Cruz is somewhat "out" there and think it’s still in the 60s/70s to some degree and it’s a very "granola" town. But I don’t associate with that kind of image.  But golly…you’ll see the most vegetarians in town here and also dreadlocked people Conal — Conal Ho Graduate Student Dept. of Anthropology University of California, Santa Cruz

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<<snip What I read was that the trim motor design assumes the colder air temperatures that exist in mid flight.  Overuse on the ground, as a safety check, are causing the problems.  Still seems like a design flaw to me. —

so it’s a design flaw too that because a house variety garbage grinder can be run without water and burn up the seals? It’s not like they didn’t TELL people that running it on the ground was a bad idea.  90 seconds and it overheats.  It takes 5 seconds "up" and 5 seconds "down" to check the motor.  The horn beeps and you know the stab is in motion (each direction)

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What I read was that the trim motor design assumes the colder air temperatures that exist in mid flight.  Overuse on the ground, as a safety check, are causing the problems.  Still seems like a design flaw to me.

Naw…not really. That’s like saying most people would not excessively ‘ride the brakes’ on a car, and that if they do it excessively to point of failure – that’s a design flaw. I’m not an airline pilot (nor do I play one on TV ) but I would take Mark’s (and others) word on this — if they say that normally them not being used much on the ground, then that’s within line for the design. It’s just a matter of educating car drivers not to unneceessarily ride the brakes, and educating pilots not to unnecessarily check this over and over. -Dan

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What I read was that the trim motor design assumes the colder air temperatures that exist in mid flight.  Overuse on the ground, as a safety check, are causing the problems.  Still seems like a design flaw to me.

Well, not building the airplane out of "black box" material sounds like a design flaw to me.  But we all know otherwise — the plane would never take off if it was built out of that material.  Planes aren’t meant to be driven like a car, and thus, their systems are optimized to be flown inflight. Since the overuse is just that, and the manufacturer knows it can cause problems, it can’t be a design flaw if it was never intended to be used that way in the first place. –Dan

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[snip] What I read was that the trim motor design assumes the colder air temperatures that exist in mid flight.  Overuse on the ground, as a safety check, are causing the problems.  Still seems like a design flaw to me.

No, it’s not.  A design flaw is something that fails in the environment or function for which it was designed.  A component that is intended from the outset to be operated in the cold environment of flight (due to temperature, airflow, or both) is not a poor design if it fails when run in a hot environment.  If that constituted a design flaw, then our bodies represent a major design flaw because they actually only operate correctly in a very narrow environmental band unless they are artificially sustained (clothes, air conditioning, etc.). If a component designed for use in a specific environment repeatedly fails when operated in that environment, then you have a design flaw.  That’s why new airplanes go through such long and extensive flight-test programs: to confirm that all the components operate properly and reliably in the function and environment for which they were designed. The DC-9 series of aircraft has been around forever in aviation years (even more in dog years), and they have used the same simple control systems all that time, with very few problems.  If components on the airplanes are now being operated in environments for which they were not intended (multiple and long-duration stabilizer trim checks on the ground, for example) than it is perfectly logical to assume there will be an increased number of component failures in those systems. If a design criteria for the DC-9 had been from the outset multiple and long-duration trim checks on the ground in places like the Dubai desert, Phoenix in the summer, and so forth, then the system components would have been selected with those environmental conditions in mind.  There would have been auxilliary cooling, heavier-duty motors, or whatever it took, to ensure the system performed reliably under these conditions.  But all a flight crew needs to know is that the trim system is working properly.  A momentary ground check of the system’s components is all that is necessary to determine this.  So why add all kinds of weight and complexity to an airplane to meet a requirement that doesn’t exist? So perhaps the recent rash of MD-80 stabilizer "problems" is not the result of a design flaw, but is the result of a change in the environment and manner in which the system is being used, which the system was never designed for in the first place. C. Marin Faure   author, Flying A Floatplane

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If that constituted a design flaw, then our bodies represent a major design flaw because they actually only operate correctly in a very narrow environmental band unless they are artificially sustained (clothes, air conditioning, etc.).

*laugh* Air conditioning?! Boy…some of you folks have lived in comfortable, big America for a tad bit too long. Conal — Conal Ho Graduate Student Dept. of Anthropology University of California, Santa Cruz

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If that constituted a design flaw, then our bodies represent a major design flaw because they actually only operate correctly in a very narrow environmental band unless they are artificially sustained (clothes, air conditioning, etc.). *laugh* Air conditioning?! Boy…some of you folks have lived in comfortable, big America for a tad bit too long.

Really?  Then explain to me why virtually every single building I’ve been in in Kuala Lumpur, Malta, Dubai, Reunion Island, and Hong Kong are air conditioned?  Get out and see the world before you make generalizations like that. C. Marin Faure   author, Flying A Floatplane

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If that constituted a design flaw, then our bodies represent a major design flaw because they actually only operate correctly in a very narrow environmental band unless they are artificially sustained (clothes, air conditioning, etc.). *laugh* Air conditioning?! Boy…some of you folks have lived in comfortable, big America for a tad bit too long. Really?  Then explain to me why virtually every single building I’ve been in in Kuala Lumpur, Malta, Dubai, Reunion Island, and Hong Kong are air conditioned?  Get out and see the world before you make generalizations like that. C. Marin Faure author, Flying A Floatplane

Geez…I guess Mr. Faure simply didn’t see that emoticon that ended my post. It looks like this Need to pay attention to those details dear sir. Get out and see the world? Boy I have. I’ve lived in 3 different continents (Africa, Asia, N. America) and 4 different countries (Ghana, Hong Kong, Canada, U.S.) and visited numerous other countries. I was really remarking on your statement "[humans] only operate correctly in a very narrow environmental band unless they are artificially sustained (clothes, air conditioning, etc.)." I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean it that literally, that’s why I wrote my statement with an emoticon. After all, people live without air condition all the time in Ghana. And witness any elite athlete and you’ll be amazed at how versatile the human body really is. Ever seen an ultramarathon (over 26.2 miles) or an ironman triathlon? Details my dear sir. Details. Conal — Conal Ho Graduate Student Dept. of Anthropology University of California, Santa Cruz

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To a non-expert like me, the overheating of the trim motor sounds rather bizzare. Why are trim motors designed such that they can overheat at all, except in the case of a malfunction with the motor. Maybe a silly question, but I’m just thinking, if you’re driving a car, you don’t expect it to overheat just because you keep shifting gears. Or? Wrong logic here??

What I read was that the trim motor design assumes the colder air temperatures that exist in mid flight.  Overuse on the ground, as a safety check, are causing the problems.  Still seems like a design flaw to me. — * Let the words be yours, I am done with mine  * Before you buy.

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To a non-expert like me, the overheating of the trim motor sounds rather bizzare. Why are trim motors designed such that they can overheat at all, except in the case of a malfunction with the motor. Maybe a silly question, but I’m just thinking, if you’re driving a car, you don’t expect it to overheat just because you keep shifting gears. Or? Wrong logic here??

Besides setting the trim for takeoff, there is no need whatsoever to trim while on the ground.  The system is designed to be cooled by the airflow over the stabilizer in flight, and overheats without that airflow if the system is used too much while on the ground. There are also similar systems on most aircraft.  You can’t run the wing heat (anti-ice) on the ground, for example, as it would do significant damage to the wing.  Once you have airflow over the wing (when airborne), you can turn it on. –Mark Rogers

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[snip] What I read was that the trim motor design assumes the colder air temperatures that exist in mid flight.  Overuse on the ground, as a safety check, are causing the problems.  Still seems like a design flaw to me.

        In the design of airplanes, weight is king.  They calculate a dollar per pound value that weight savings are worth.  If if costs more than that they don’t do it. If it costs less than that, it will save the customer money.  These ratios are different from aircraft to aircraft.  But these numbers can be on the order of $10,000/pound. A smaller motor which cannot be run continuously on the ground, but can work at altitude would be considered a god send.  You actually tend to save money (smaller motor = cheaper motor) AND it will weigh less. Considering that most weight savings actually cost money to incorporate, this would top the list of weight saving features.  The flaw isn’t in the design, it is in a procedure that was not well thought out. Before you buy.

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I agree with your perception. If you suffer USAToday daily,you’ll likely see _some_ kind of airliner incident/emergency at least once a week. So,yes,I too believe the media is trying to link any and all incidents as a trend in their quest for thinly veiled sensationalism. What this country needs,it seems,is another stupid "pop culture" scandal to give the media a fresh tree to go barking up.

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It seems that the news is reporting more MD-80 emergency landings with the same problems; the horizontal stabilizer more often than usual. Last nights news cast reported that an AS flight landed in Reno, and the last one being in PHX.  It was reported with real sensationalism and entertainment; you know, they tell you to "stay tuned for this report of a ’scary’ emergency landing involving a jetliner with ‘hundreds’ of passengers on board" and tell you about it during the last minute of the cast.

Remember, there was a daily smoke-in-the-cockpit episode that was plastered all over cnn.com and msnbc.com right after the SR111 crash. Rich

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It seems that the news is reporting more MD-80 emergency landings with the same problems; the horizontal stabilizer more often than usual.

I read somewhere what part of the reason may be.  Concerned about possible stabilizer jams, more flight crews are running the stabilizer on the ground longer to make sure it is functioning correctly.  This leads to an overheat of the trim motor, which causes the electric trim system to stop while the system cools. Already alerted to possible problems, the flight crew makes an emergency landing.  In these cases, there is nothing really wrong with the trim system, and definitely nothing wrong with the stabilizer, but the instances are widely reported. –Mark Rogers

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems that the news is reporting more MD-80 emergency landings with the same problems; the horizontal stabilizer more often than usual. I read somewhere what part of the reason may be.  Concerned about possible stabilizer jams, more flight crews are running the stabilizer on the ground longer to make sure it is functioning correctly.  This leads to an overheat of the trim motor, which causes the electric trim system to stop while the system cools. Already alerted to possible problems, the flight crew makes an emergency landing.  In these cases, there is nothing really wrong with the trim system, and definitely nothing wrong with the stabilizer, but the instances are widely reported. –Mark Rogers

To a non-expert like me, the overheating of the trim motor sounds rather bizzare. Why are trim motors designed such that they can overheat at all, except in the case of a malfunction with the motor. Maybe a silly question, but I’m just thinking, if you’re driving a car, you don’t expect it to overheat just because you keep shifting gears. Or? Wrong logic here?? Conal — Conal Ho Graduate Student Dept. of Anthropology University of California, Santa Cruz

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It seems that the news is reporting more MD-80 emergency landings with the same problems; the horizontal stabilizer more often than usual. Last nights news cast reported that an AS flight landed in Reno, and the last one being in PHX.  It was reported with real sensationalism and entertainment; you know, they tell you to "stay tuned for this report of a ’scary’ emergency landing involving a jetliner with ‘hundreds’ of passengers on board" and tell you about it during the last minute of the cast. Questions:  I don’t hear of emergency landings in cities other than the local ones, but is it normal for this to happen once or twice per week?  Are pilots taking extra precautions, thus leading to an increase in emergency landings?  Although I would happily board an MD-80 in a second, I’m wondering how often this actually happens.  Are there statistics? Erik R; trusts the truth, not the entertainment media industry.

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Question:

The Runner’s Web has an extensive index of running and triathlon club web sites. If we have missed your favourite, please submit it to us and we will add it to our index. Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

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The current listing for the St. Louis Track Club is out of date.  The new URL is http://www.stlouistrackclub.com Please update your listing page and give us a visit. Thank you, Ken Hawkins SLTC Webmaster – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Runner’s Web has an extensive index of running and triathlon club web sites. If we have missed your favourite, please submit it to us and we will add it to our index. Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

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Question:

A smoking and a non smoking section is kinda like a peeing and a non peeing section in the pool if it’s not in two completely separate rooms. I walk into a restaurant now and notice if someone in the far corner is smoking, and don’t think twice about going else where if there isn’t a smoke free area. Joel — Joel Sylvester Longest Day ‘98 12:10:33 Me: www.roe.ac.uk/jswww/ Edinburgh Triathletes: www.edintri.u-net.com

– Achim Wilfried Heinle

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I’d be interested to know if the current practise in places that have clamped down on smoking is working, ie the numbers of smokers is going down. On my trips to California I’ve enjoyed the smoke free atmosphere in workplaces, restaurants and bars, especially in LA where the air seems cleaner inside than outside. I understand that advertising has been banned in Sweden. I’ve noticed in the UK that over the past 10 years or so smoking has become less and less socially acceptable, and I’ve become less and less tolerant of it as a result. I walk into a restaurant now and notice if someone in the far corner is smoking, and don’t think twice about going else where if there isn’t a smoke free area. I return from an evening out, and I strip off in the hall, the clothes go straight in the washing machine, and I have a shower before I go to bed so the smell of smoke doesn’t get in to the bedroom. There are more and more smoke free restaurants and even pubs. Whether people are giving up or not, my own environment is becoming far more pleasent and healthy. But I don’t think the figures in the UK show that the actual number of smokers is going down. I’m all for banning cigarette advertising and sponsorship, outlawing it in public places and taxing it to death. But I wonder if in countries which are taking the lead against smoking, people are simply retreating to their own homes or actually giving up. – Looking forward to the club Christmas meal and disco. Lots of food, booze, gossip, dancing and NO SMOKE! Joel — Joel Sylvester Longest Day ‘98 12:10:33 Me: www.roe.ac.uk/jswww/ Edinburgh Triathletes: www.edintri.u-net.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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While I support the concept of enough people making the personal choice to eschew tobacco that farmers find themselves switching to other produce which has a better market, I find it sad that so many people subscribe to the "it’s bad, let’s outlaw it", whatever "it" is.  You have not only personal choice, but a responsibility to choose wisely.  You have the opportunity to influence your children and friends.  Frankly, I consider the laws to save us from ourselves to be worse that nuisances, but rather an erosion of the principle of freedoms in life. Just as the (US) government protects our rights to advocate an unpopular point of view, it should also allow consenting adults to have their party without interference from others.  This would apply to tobacco growers and smokers in this case.

Amen, brothe Thad. Many could learn from your point of view. Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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There is a local Tobacco festival that sponsors a 5K.  While I’ve never done it, it has been staged for several years now.  I would think this implies it has been somewhat successful.  I wonder what the awards would be?  Pack of smokes?  Maybe in addition to age groups, they have smoker/non-smoker divisions? Dave B. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

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the question: why are cigarettes — undeniably lethal — legal and marijuana, undeniably safer, with admitted benefits for some, illegal?  You can’t get past the hypocrisy.  

I dunno, I have a hard time swallowing the "undeniably safer" assertion. It strikes me that weed’s mind-altering characteristics render it pretty darned unsafe.  And it still isn’t any picnic for the lungs. Having said all that, I agree that legalizing the junk probably is smarter than the current practice.  Legalize it, control it, tax it, and make some money off of it.   Disgusting stuff.  But we all have our vices.  I admit to being addicted to endorphines, sugar, and bubble-gum. — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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: I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting : events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. : : True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as : directed". : You could say that air kills most of its users.

Air kills it’s users? Oh come on Daniel, does anyone make a fat profit out of making it more addictive and therefore more deadly to it’s users? Well, yes of course they do, the tobacco industry. I’d say I get through a fair bit of air every week and I’m confident that my lungs and circulatory system are in better shape than if I’d combined my air intake with tobacco smoke. Phil Squire – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Daniel.

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Get off your high horse Steve.                 Scott Galehouse

Why? I happen to agree and find nothing "high horse" about it. I would not attend a triathlon or run sponsored by a tobacco company. I quit smoking and find nothing remotely positive about a product that is the antithesis of health. Mike "What’s so unusual about that?" Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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Hey, Maybe we can get a drug cartel to sponser a triathlon too. you know, free speach and all.   And the good thing about about Mariajunna, Cocaine, Angel dust, and Heroin is all of them combined kill les than 2% as many people every year as compared to tobacco.   So before we let the Drug Kingpins (Tobacco Company Executives) of the deadliest drug known to man sponsor our triathlons, maybe we should start out with some of the not so dangerous drugs. Steve Adams  P.S.(Joe Camel is a drug pushing scumbag)

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I would run a marathon for a Camel. — — Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

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Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. It’s legal status is a fact and rather oxymoronic considering it’s distructive nature.  I can only hope that in my lifetime it is banned and the tobacco growers can find an alternate product to grow so the current tobacco industry can financially survive.

While I support the concept of enough people making the personal choice to eschew tobacco that farmers find themselves switching to other produce which has a better market, I find it sad that so many people subscribe to the "it’s bad, let’s outlaw it", whatever "it" is.  You have not only personal choice, but a responsibility to choose wisely.  You have the opportunity to influence your children and friends.  Frankly, I consider the laws to save us from ourselves to be worse that nuisances, but rather an erosion of the principle of freedoms in life. Just as the (US) government protects our rights to advocate an unpopular point of view, it should also allow consenting adults to have their party without interference from others.  This would apply to tobacco growers and smokers in this case. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore. A product we don’t like and a product that distroys life, is not quite the same, at least in my book.  

Who is "we"?  Certainly not all citizens.  As far as destroying life, the same could be said statistically of cars or bicycles.  Every person chooses their own risks and pleasures. Yes, I endorse your right to boycott tobacco-sponsored events.  And no, I don’t smoke. Thad

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Great thread on tobacco sponsorships, but only theoretical, wot?  It seems unlikely that we’ll ever hear of the Kool Lite Ironman Championship (although if I’m not mistaken  "Lucky 7," the sponsor of an adventure race in China, is a Chinese cigarette co.). Cigarettes are lethal, but also legal.  So long as they’re legal, cigarette co.s have 1st Amendment rights and can advertise and sponsor events.  Why not? And any individual can choose to participate, stay home, set up a picket line, smoke or not smoke, based on his or her principles, lack of principles, or interest.  These ideas seem basic. More interesting, and raised by only one writer that I noticed (hi, Steve), is the question: why are cigarettes — undeniably lethal — legal and marijuana, undeniably safer, with admitted benefits for some, illegal?  You can’t get past the hypocrisy.   I don’t smoke or use anything (except Zantac, vitamin supplements, soy protein powder, Met-Rx, and daily asperin, natch), but let’s face it — we could erase the national deficit with what we spend on the "war on drugs" (the results of which make Vietnam look like a victory). A Martian, here for only one day, would send home the irrational report that some mind-altering, potentially harmful substances (tobacco, alcohol) are legal with only some (if any) adverse social consequences to their users, and others illegal, with potentially disasterous consequences (life in prison for a 3rd strike, e.g.).  What’s the point? So I’m wating for the announcement of the Kona Gold Ironman Championship, with awards for every participant.

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Excellent, this got something going, I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed". Use, mind you, that is fully a VOLUNTARY action on the part of the user. Must we ban the legal advertisement of a legal product considering smoking is an activity people choose to do?

If I wrote we / you (I’m not in the US) should ban the advertising of a legal product then I don’t recall doing so. What I said was that : True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed".

I DID NOT advocate the banning of tobacco advertising. What you seem to be hung up on is the fact that tobacco is legal, and therefore it is OK to advertise it without scruple? FWIW I would not take part in any Triathlon that I knew was sponsored by a tobacco company. Red meat and butter, dare I say, kill their users, too, used as directed. Do you suggest banning them from sponsorship, too?

I DID NOT advocate the banning of tobacco advertising / sponsorship! Red meat and butter are not addictive, nor do the companies who produce them tamper with the product in order to make them more so. I did write: "I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech." My intention was to illustrate that if the majority find something unacceptable then something would / should be done. While that is not the case, fine, anything goes. I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech. Sure, like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. However, I’d bet more people find trampling on the constitution much more unacceptable than Marlboro sponsoring a few sporting events.

Absolutely, however I have not suggested the banning of advertising, neither did I suggest trampling upon the constitution. (This constitution/trampling thing is always a good way of getting feelings going) Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. I said the "so called" right to free speech because I felt, perhaps wrongly, that there must have been laws passed to change the original bill of rights. Correct me I I’m wrong. This is America.

Well, no it isn’t. This is the Internet, and while America has the majority of subscribers, it is not the Internet. Nor is Usenet. Free speech is for everybody. Usenet is a great example.

Absolutely. OOI do you draw no limits on free speech at all? Phil Squire – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) Me? Oh I just rant on;-) Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. If tobacco use did not attract and harm so many of our youth and it wasn’t such a known killer and/or distroyer of quality of life for all, then I would agree.

Doug, you may need government to tell you what you can and cannot put in your body, as long as it doesn’t harm others. I don’t. I do not favor youth smoking. However, I find it ridiculous that we scratch our heads and wonder why teenage smoking is going up considering we’re doing everything to outlaw it—except outlawing it! If it’s so bad, it ought to be outlawed. Period. But the government makes money on cigs, so it will never be so. In the meantime, we tell kids smoking is bad and evil. So naturally, they do it. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. It’s legal status is a fact and rather oxymoronic considering it’s distructive nature.  I can only hope that in my lifetime it is banned and the tobacco growers can find an alternate product to grow so the current tobacco industry can financially survive.

So I guess you do need government to tell you what you can, and cannot, put in your body, tobacco-wise. Can you still get them cheap at the PX?

Don’t know. Never smoked. Never will. Never bought ‘em. If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal. You have my vote.  And to think, we would ever agree.

It will never be outlawed because the states are making money off the "tobacco deal." To outlaw it would mean less money for the states. The states make more money off tobacco than the tobacco companies do. A product we don’t like and a product that distroys life, is not quite the same, at least in my book.

And you, Doug, have the choice whether to injest such product. We all have the right to destroy our bodies, right? If your answer is no, do you favor government mandated exercise? I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) A surprise that you feel the urge to rant or the fact you stopped with one iteration? <g

I’ll keep going as long as this thread does. That’s how I operate. Hi, Doug!! Hugs and kisses to you. Does this mean we can go to the zoo together?  :)

Bronx or PDX? Mike — When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed".

Use, mind you, that is fully a VOLUNTARY action on the part of the user. Must we ban the legal advertisement of a legal product considering smoking is an activity people choose to do? Red meat and butter, dare I say, kill their users, too, used as directed. Do you suggest banning them from sponsorship, too? I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech.

Sure, like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. However, I’d bet more people find trampling on the constitution much more unacceptable than Marlboro sponsoring a few sporting events. This is America. Free speech is for everybody. Usenet is a great example. I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) Me? Oh I just rant on;-)

Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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: I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting : events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. : : True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as : directed". : You could say that air kills most of its users. Daniel.

Response:

Get off your high horse Steve.                 Scott Galehouse

It’s not about being on a "high horse".  It’s about a group of people without morals or conscience getting rich by peddling a highly addictive and poisinous product.   I have watched several friends and a few relatives die as a direct result of tobacco and I will say it again. I would have nothing to do with any athletic event that had a tobacco company sponsor.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

Response:

I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine.

If tobacco use did not attract and harm so many of our youth and it wasn’t such a known killer and/or distroyer of quality of life for all, then I would agree. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily.

It’s legal status is a fact and rather oxymoronic considering it’s distructive nature.  I can only hope that in my lifetime it is banned and the tobacco growers can find an alternate product to grow so the current tobacco industry can financially survive. Can you still get them cheap at the PX? As a sociey we do set many double standards. We often point at alcohol for valid comparison. I’m sure there are others.     If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal.

You have my vote.  And to think, we would ever agree. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore.

A product we don’t like and a product that distroys life, is not quite the same, at least in my book.   I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^)

A surprise that you feel the urge to rant or the fact you stopped with one iteration? <g Hi, Doug!!

Hugs and kisses to you. Does this mean we can go to the zoo together?  :) — Caveat Lector!

Response:

Sort of a chicken and egg or selling your soul to the devil problem. Remember in the earlier days of the Ironman, Budlight was a title sponsor. I’m sure MADD if it existed back them would not have been happy.  The Budlight sponsorship probably helped the Ironman survive to what it is today. When Hooter’s signed as a major sponsor for the Aloha Bowl there was an uproar here in Hawaii.  Let face it unless the the people making the noise can come up another sponsor, the Aloha Bowl has no choice.  In fact considering the bad economy in Hawaii, the Aloha Bowl is pretty lucky. All events rely on volunteers to survive.  The major events need sponsorship.  I know Valerie Silk as much as she loved the Ironman could not put the Ironman on for free.  I seem to recall she eventually needed to come up with prize money to continue Ironman’s success. I love participating in triathlons.  I know the small events I participate in are successful because of the volunteers.  I make it a point to volunteer for sporting events that I don’t particpate in.  In fact, it’s a lot of fun watching some kid who look no more than 5 years old or someone who looks like they are in their eightys complete a 1K or 2K swim. Bottom line, we need volunteers and sponors. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

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  C’mon, the irony of tobacco sponsorship in triathlon is quite amusing. I say let tobacco companies put up their money–I don’t think that they are going to convert many triathletes into smokers.     Brian Meyer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. The thought of a tobacco company sponsoring an athletic event is repugnant to me and I would have nothing to do with such an event.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

Response:

Get off your high horse Steve.                  Scott Galehouse

Response:

What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events.

The thought of a tobacco company sponsoring an athletic event is repugnant to me and I would have nothing to do with such an event.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

Response:

I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily.

True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed". If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore.

I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech. I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^)

Me? Oh I just rant on;-) Phil Hi, Doug!! Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign

So true! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

Response:

What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

Response:

Who cares.  I know I don’t.  I do not use the products, and am more than willing enough to aloow for lower app. fees, and larger prozes for thos who win (certainly not me). I don’t think the tri sports, or most others for that matter are in danger od being influenced by Joe Camel. I know I personally do not let politically correct decisions run my daily life (I am a cop, i can’t).  If they want to write a check, I say give them a pen. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

Response:

What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken

I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore. I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) Hi, Doug!! Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

Response:

Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/. Although this is somewhat suggestive, it does NOT mean that secondhand smoke constitutes a danger. — [Eric Rescorla

Please read the complete report at WWW.WHO CARES IT JUST STINKS. COM D.J. " did you ever look at a real pretty girl in a car blowing cig smoke out  of her mouth at a stop light— YUK"  (IRONKID)

Response:

Those who supported tobacco sponsorship of triathlons and road races may be interested in a detailed analysis of the product. The province of British Columbia has published the first publicly. detailed analysis of chemicals contained in Canadian cigarettes. Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

Response:

Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/.

Although this is somewhat suggestive, it does NOT mean that secondhand smoke constitutes a danger. The issue here is that they’re measuring the output in terms of ug/cigarette, but what’s relevant is total intake into your lungs, which is much more difficult to measure. That said, this report is fairly loaded. The quotes for how dangerous the various chemicals are are quite misleading. While I’m sure taht some of these chemicals are quite toxic, let’s take a look at of them:         Acetone: "Workers exposed to acetone vapours experienced transient         eye and nose irritation." Acetone is widely used in nail polish remover. When I worked in a chemistry lab, we used to use squirt bottles of acetone to dry glassware.         Ammonia: "Ammonia can increase susceptibility to viral illness and         aggravate chronic respiratory conditions." Ammonia is a common kitchen cleaning agent. It’s one of the components of Windex. Note that both ammonia and acetone have quite noticeable smells, but you can’t smell either of them in cigarette smoke to any noticeable degree. I suspect you get FAR more exposure to ammonia when cleaning the kitchen. Remember, we’re talking about inhaling fumes here, not drinking it. Similarly, listing hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide is fairly misleading. They’re both quite toxic, but they’re acute toxins not cumulative toxins. So, if you’re not suffering ill effects immediately, you’re probably not going to. (They interfere with transport). There’s nowhere near enough in secondhand cigarette smoke to do you any damage at all. Your car puts out a lot more CO, for instance. Look, it’s perfectly clear that smoking is bad for you, but this sort of list of toxic chemical without any indication of the generally considered safe amount is just irresponsible. By constrast, it’s not clear that secondhand smoke is bad for you, and this doesn’t add anything to that debate either. -Ekr —           eTrain – free triathlon training software               http://www.rtfm.com/tri/etrain.html

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Eric Rescorla wrote "your car puts out a lot more CO, for instance" I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want to sit behind a parked car sniffing the fumes on any kind of a regular basis.    Or to compare it to second hand smoke, (Kids don’t do this without your parents permision) Try bringing your car into the living room, close all the doors and windows, start the car, then take a nice little nap.   Now you’ve proved your point, your car does put out a lot more CO, and everyone in the house is dead. How does that make second hand smoke not bad for you? Steve "I’d rather sit next to an I.V. drug user than to sit next to a smoker" Adams

Response:

In reference to dangerous babbling about the second hand smoke not being a health hazard, you either work for a cig company, have never been out in the real world and exposed to some idiot blowing his/hers putrid smelling smoke in your direction or you need to get off of your daddys computer and not tie up space in this news group dedicated to the ultra fit! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/. Although this is somewhat suggestive, it does NOT mean that secondhand smoke constitutes a danger. The issue here is that they’re measuring the output in terms of ug/cigarette, but what’s relevant is total intake into your lungs, which is much more difficult to measure. That said, this report is fairly loaded. The quotes for how dangerous the various chemicals are are quite misleading. While I’m sure taht some of these chemicals are quite toxic, let’s take a look at of them:        Acetone: "Workers exposed to acetone vapours experienced transient        eye and nose irritation." Acetone is widely used in nail polish remover. When I worked in a chemistry lab, we used to use squirt bottles of acetone to dry glassware.        Ammonia: "Ammonia can increase susceptibility to viral illness and        aggravate chronic respiratory conditions." Ammonia is a common kitchen cleaning agent. It’s one of the components of Windex. Note that both ammonia and acetone have quite noticeable smells, but you can’t smell either of them in cigarette smoke to any noticeable degree. I suspect you get FAR more exposure to ammonia when cleaning the kitchen. Remember, we’re talking about inhaling fumes here, not drinking it. Similarly, listing hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide is fairly misleading. They’re both quite toxic, but they’re acute toxins not cumulative toxins. So, if you’re not suffering ill effects immediately, you’re probably not going to. (They interfere with transport). There’s nowhere near enough in secondhand cigarette smoke to do you any damage at all. Your car puts out a lot more CO, for instance. Look, it’s perfectly clear that smoking is bad for you, but this sort of list of toxic chemical without any indication of the generally considered safe amount is just irresponsible. By constrast, it’s not clear that secondhand smoke is bad for you, and this doesn’t add anything to that debate either. -Ekr — [Eric Rescorla

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Question:

We have a Yellow 53 PR in stock ready to build, and ship. — Bud Bonzai web site      www.erols.com/bonzaisports : I’m desperately looking for a 55 or 53cm QR Private Reserve.  I’m : located in the triathlon mecca of the world, San DIego, but unable to : find my bike of dreams. Please help me out. : : :

Response:

We have a brand new, yellow, 55 cm PR with QR’s Speed Kit package (Dura-Ace 9 spd) in stock right now if you are still interested. 175 mm cranks, med. bars. $2450. We are a new multi-sport store, Tri-Specialties and located in Louisiana. We offer free UPS ground shipping and since you are out of state, we do not have to collect tax. Credit cards accepted. We can have it shipped out Monday morning if you are still interested!!! Let us know! Diane Tarver phone: 318/625-9224  evening calls welcomed. http://Tri-Specialties.com http://MultiSweatRacing.org I’m desperately looking for a 55 or 53cm QR Private Reserve.  I’m located in the triathlon mecca of the world, San DIego, but unable to find my bike of dreams. Please help me out.

Response:

I’m desperately looking for a 55 or 53cm QR Private Reserve.  I’m located in the triathlon mecca of the world, San DIego, but unable to find my bike of dreams. Please help me out.

Response:

Question:

I’ve never biked for exercise before, although I ride my bike a fair amount during the summer, but I would like to compete in a triathlon 10 weeks away.  CurrentlY I run about 45m – 50m a week (pass two weeks a 50 although no speed stuff yet, starting that tomorrow).   I plan on dropping my mileage to 35 miles a week and adding 3 days of bicycling. I saw somewhere a mileage chart like this: week 1          10 10 10 week 2          10 15 10 week 3          15 10 15 week 4          10 20 15 week 5          15 20 15 week 6          20 25 15 If this is a good progression how should I change it for weeks 7,8,9 and 10.  If it isn’t good what would be a better 10 week plan.   Matt

Response:

You sure run a lot more than I do. I compete every race I can, including 1/2 ironman distances. I very rarely run that much. I usually do an average now (winter) of 15-20 a week, rarely over 35 even during the season. I ran a 1:39 at Vineman 1/2 Iron distance last year on training like that. I would say cut back to 20 miles run a week and get out on that bike. As a runner only you do not have any other regular choices for exercise. If the tri you are doing has a 10 mile bike then the run is probably not over 5 miles, probably a 5k. You sure don’t need 45-50 miles a week for that. As fast as you might go on the run there,if you don’t cycle well enough you will be left in the dust on that leg. I would get out there and ride 3 x week as you say and cut back on the running. You want to feel good on the bike, not overly tired. Plus you want to be able to go hard. Also throw in a few "bricks." Do 15 miles on the bike and then run IMMEDIATELY 2-3 miles – hard. This might be a wake up for you if you have never done it before. Don’t leave this unique "brick" experience to the day of the race. Ken (Treemoss2)

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Question:

CO2 cartridge stuff [snip]

We have a new product coming out in about a month or so, which is a CO2 cartridge plastic thingy which has a button on it, and is basically air on demand (you push the button and air comes out, take your thumb on the button and air stays in.  It mounts on the frame, we usually mount it in that triangular area at the top of the rear triangle, in front of the brake bridge, behind the seat tube. It allows for a much more controlled air flow into the tire.  But you still have to subjectively determine when the tire is "full". It is made for us by a company that already makes such a device, but has re-engineered it for us, to work better for triathletes (they mainly sell the device to MTB’ers).   QRman

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CO2 cartridge stuff [snip] We have a new product coming out in about a month or so, which is a CO2 cartridge plastic thingy which has a button on it, and is basically air on demand (you push the button and air comes out, take your thumb on the button and air stays in.  It mounts on the frame, we usually mount it in that triangular area at the top of the rear triangle, in front of the brake bridge, behind the seat tube. It allows for a much more controlled air flow into the tire.  But you still have to subjectively determine when the tire is "full". It is made for us by a company that already makes such a device, but has re-engineered it for us, to work better for triathletes (they mainly sell the device to MTB’ers). QRman

I’ll buy one.  Let us know when they are available. Neal Silver Spring, MD

Response:

There are also several models available from Performance… I think the smallest unit might be a trick to operate though because it takes both hands to twist the on/off valve which makes it hard to check tire pressure at the same time… Additionally, the screw-threaded cart. are hard to find inlocal stores and very expensive. Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon CO2 cartridge stuff [snip] We have a new product coming out in about a month or so, which is a CO2 cartridge plastic thingy which has a button on it, and is basically air on demand (you push the button and air comes out, take your thumb on the button and air stays in.  It mounts on the frame, we usually mount it in that triangular area at the top of the rear triangle, in front of the brake bridge, behind the seat tube. It allows for a much more controlled air flow into the tire.   But you still have to subjectively determine when the tire is "full". It is made for us by a company that already makes such a device, but has re-engineered it for us, to work better for triathletes (they mainly sell the device to MTB’ers). QRman I’ll buy one.  Let us know when they are available. Neal Silver Spring, MD

Emerging Technology Services    - innovative mechanical product development    - software application development/management

Response:

: There are also several models available from Performance… I think : the smallest unit might be a trick to operate though because it : takes both hands to twist the on/off valve which makes it hard to : check tire pressure at the same time… I ordered my inflator from Nytro for $9.99.  It’s a 90 degree inflator, so works for tri-spokes, discs, etc.  The only downside is that it needs threaded cartridges.  However, it’s TINY and takes up next to no space.   : Additionally, the screw-threaded cart. are hard to find inlocal : stores and very expensive. That, however, is true.  I get mine at the local Performance shop.  $7.99 plus tax for 3 16g cartrdiges.  Anyone have a cheap source for these? After my first road flat last week (during my first century, with my first crash…) I guess my luck has run out after a couple of years.  Better stock up now… Jason, yes I now carry tools on training rides, in VA — Jason Mayfield Arlington, VA http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa Sick & Twisted Site of the Day: http://dufus.westga.edu/~zooropa/sick.html 48 Days Until Ironman Canada

Response:

I’ve now completed my first two sprint distance tri’s.  I love this sport more and more every day I train.  But, I’m having a hard time judging where I’m at in regards to descent times – overall, and in all three stages individually. What are descent times for the swim, bike and run legs of: 1K/20K/5K ? 1.5K/40K/10K ? My run is so weak that it pulls my total times down.  I think I’m doing okay on the bike and swim but don’t have anything to measure against – help!

Response:

Does anyone know how much air is a CO2 cartridge?   Can I fill my 120 psi clinchers without fear of blowing up my only spare tube?  How do you know how much air is in the tire?  Any insght would be helpful. Paul

Response:

   Does anyone know how much air is a CO2 cartridge?   Can I fill my 120    psi clinchers without fear of blowing up my only spare tube?  How do    you know how much air is in the tire?  Any insght would be helpful. The type I use fill a 700*23 tire to about 105 PSI, you could always test yours by filling a tire an checking its pressure.  By the way, its pretty tough to blow a good tire off the rim, I’ve hit 150 psi with a Silica track pump and nothing happened.  

Response:

I’ve generally gone by the somewhat unscientifically tested belief that a C02 cart equals aprx 10lbs or air per gram. Hence, a 12-gram cart would put about 120 pounds in your tire provided you didn’t let half of it leak in the air up process. As long as your tire is properly seated in the rim bead before you start putting the air in, you shouldn’t have to worry about blowing the tire off the rim. I use a whole 16grm cart on my Conti GPs and have never blown one off yet. The best thing to do, though, is get a feel for the proper pressure via the touch method and use that as your guide if you don’t have a gauge.

Response:

Question:

I am quite new to this internet scene.  I just found this today.  I am a triathlete,too, and I am extremely excited to find some other people to talk tri with besides my poor, bored, husband.   Anyone out there from the Indiana area??????            

Florida Triathlete that you can talk to. What races have you enterd this year and how did you do? I like sprint Tri’s myself

Response:

I had a TREK 2100 that cracked just below the seat post just 3 days before a race that I had entered. I went to my local trek dealer who contacted his trek sales rep. The sales rep responded quickly and had a new frame shipped to my dealer within 2days.  And upgraded my frame to a 5500 because they did not have a 2100 in stock with the colors I liked. I have no complaints about trek

Response:

invariably the mail gets bounced back to me, saying it cannot be delivered : will actually work?  

Yes!  For some reason my e-mail address on my posts appears as the one you have you mail to, but my REAL e-mail address is:             ^^^^^^ Lucy

Response:

Hey, what do I need to do to take part in all this??  I’ve been tri-ing for 4 years now and not ONCE have I been invited to run my hands all over a taut, tempting tri-body!  Geez, after all, that’s what I got into this silly sport for in the first place; you didn’t think I was doing it for my HEALTH, did you?? *sigh* Tri-Baby

Tri-Baby: You’re in the wrong place at these triathlons.  Now think of not only rubbing your hands over a taut, tempting tri-body just for a moment, but 10 minutes at a time for about 2 hours.  That’s about 12 bodies and… using a scented lubricant.  This activity goes on at at least half of the triathlons I’ve participated in.  Yes these are folks, men and women, disguised in (usually) white collared tennis shirts sporting the name of some local sports therapist shop.  All very official of course.  These are our friendly, much loved and respected "Massage Therapists".  Noone thinks twice about this raucous activity, yet these few, skilled experts are the real beneficiaries of hands-on training! Tucker Falls Church, VA

Response:

I am quite new to this internet scene.  I just found this today.  

…I’m surprized no one posted a couple fun web sites for you to vist! try these: http://w3.one.net/~triweb/triweb.html http://www.voicenet.com/~mudboy I’m sure there are others, but these are great sites and have links all over the web… Dan Emerging Technology Services    - innovative mechanical product development    - software application development/management

Response:

Michelle,  Hey me again. Some questions for you on training.  How much training do you put in for a sprint ,olympic  and half ironman. I ask these questions just to see if  I am doing too much or too little. Right now my average  for a sprint which will be the next 3 races is about  15-20 week running, 3 miles swimming and 100 miles biking.  In early july I will increase these distances mostly  in the run and bike. Last year attempting Muncie for the  first time I got alot of 50 milers in with 5-8 mile run  but did not eat enough on bike at Muncie and paid dearly  on the (walk) run portion. Let me know on some of those  training secrets. Oh right now I will know by next wed  if I will do Shelbyville. I feel ready but I have my little  boys baptism sat night so it could be a long day sunday.  Se ya.  Mark

Response:

** If it wasn’t for the stud muffins in skimpy bathing suits **

i am appalled at the sexist nature of this comment!!  do these women thinks that we train hard just so they can come out and ogle us in our speedos, run their hands over our bodies and fondle our tight manly buttocks, and….ummm…hey that doesnt sound too bad…ok, never mind

Response:

this is a great forum for learning about triathlon, plus to keep abreast of the latest, hottest, current trends, news, etc.  As a side I have meet a number of really nice people that I occassionally meet up with at races, etc. I have also meet several cyber-pals that I exchange e-mail with in a regular basis.  It is really neat to be able to exchange ideas and information with people who share common interests. Lucy from Florida

Lucy– I have frequently tried to reply to posts or e-mails you’ve sent, and invariably the mail gets bounced back to me, saying it cannot be delivered will actually work?  It’s been bugging me for some time, because you’ve e-mailed me a couple of times, and I’m sure you probably had the impression that I was just a snot who never answers her e-mail!  Not true, not true! Let me know how to get around this problem! Tricia Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

: Lucy from Florida : Lucy– : I have frequently tried to reply to posts or e-mails you’ve sent, and : invariably the mail gets bounced back to me, saying it cannot be delivered : will actually work?  It’s been bugging me for some time, because you’ve : e-mailed me a couple of times, and I’m sure you probably had the : impression that I was just a snot who never answers her e-mail!  Not true, : not true! : Let me know how to get around this problem! : Tricia : Tri-Baby I’ve had the same problem, Lucy.  I sent you a note after Gulf Coast but it was kicked back. -Charlie

Response:

** If it wasn’t for the stud muffins in skimpy bathing suits ** i am appalled at the sexist nature of this comment!!  do these women thinks that we train hard just so they can come out and ogle us in our speedos, run their hands over our bodies and fondle our tight manly buttocks, and….ummm…hey that doesnt sound too bad…ok, never mind

Hey, what do I need to do to take part in all this??  I’ve been tri-ing for 4 years now and not ONCE have I been invited to run my hands all over a taut, tempting tri-body!  Geez, after all, that’s what I got into this silly sport for in the first place; you didn’t think I was doing it for my HEALTH, did you?? *sigh* Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

Michelle,  Hello from a NE Indiana tri-nut. My wife kinda gets bored   also with my obsession with this sport but is a good   supporter of my quest. Being a previous smoker for about   16 years I guess she feels this is a better lifestyle   for me and herself. Just wish I did this years ago.   Hey might see ya at some local Indiana Tri’s this summer.   Next week Shelbyville, then Warsaw, Shelbyville, Cameron   Springs then on to Muncie for the Worlds. Keep hammerin   and drop a line.   Mark   "If God invented marathons to keep people from doing     anything more stupid, triathlons must have taken     him completely by surprise"  

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-snip- Hey, what do I need to do to take part in all this??  I’ve been tri-ing for 4 years now and not ONCE have I been invited to run my hands all over a taut, tempting tri-body!  Geez, after all, that’s what I got into this silly sport for in the first place; you didn’t think I was doing it for my HEALTH, did you?? *sigh* Tri-Baby

I think that we need to combine two threads here- the "Number of Showers in a Day" thread, and this "Fondling Male Triathletes" thread.  The new thread should be titled, "Number of Cold Showers Needed after Reading rst!"  Of late, I’ve been needing at least two. Cameron

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: : ** If it wasn’t for the stud : muffins in skimpy bathing suits ** : : i am appalled at the sexist nature of this comment!!  do these women : thinks that we train hard just so they can come out and ogle us in our : speedos, run their hands over our bodies and fondle our tight manly : buttocks, and….ummm…hey that doesnt sound too bad…ok, never mind : : Hey, what do I need to do to take part in all this??  I’ve been tri-ing : for 4 years now and not ONCE have I been invited to run my hands all over : a taut, tempting tri-body!  Geez, after all, that’s what I got into this : silly sport for in the first place; you didn’t think I was doing it for my : HEALTH, did you?? : : *sigh* : : Tri-Baby, At Ironman (Hawaii), they have volunteers to put sunscreen on everyone who wants it in the swim-bike transition area.  Imagine getting your hands on the bare legs of hundreds of the world’s top male triathletes…. Just don’t try to convince too many other race directors that their races also need this service.  I’m not sure RST would be the appropriate forum to read your descriptive reports from those races.   :-}                                         — John — John Walker        Jackson & Tull Chartered Engineers, Seabrook, Maryland WWW URL:   http://xenon.stanford.edu/~walker  

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** If it wasn’t for the stud muffins in skimpy bathing suits ** i am appalled at the sexist nature of this comment!!  do these women thinks that we train hard just so they can come out and ogle us in our speedos, run their hands over our bodies and fondle our tight manly buttocks, and….ummm…hey that doesnt sound too bad…ok, never mind

TriSpouse is like men…. a sexist pig! Honestly though, if given the choice of sitting at home onthe patio watching clouds go by or sitting on the beach watching attractive members of the opposite sex trot by, often scantilly clad, THEN watch the clouds drift by, what would you do? Sit at home? Yeah right. My training partner is TriFiend, an occassional poster here on RST. He is quite a bit faster than me and is quite the bronzed stud muffin. How he remains single I’ll never know. Anyway, when we train together at a local race site, TriSpouse sunbakes until he gets ready for the ride and then she’s up in a flash to see him leave. She waxes poetic about his butt as he rides away, hunched over the aero bars. Needless to say she doesn’t stay standing long enough to watch ME leave. She’s back on her beach towel with a book in her face. Her comments about wanting to help him out of his wetsuit are a constant source of amusement to all. She once actually tried to help but her hands never touched the wetsuit. Rather, she merely rubbed her hands all over him, much to his embarrassment. TriDork remember, women can be sexist pigs too.

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I am quite new to this internet scene.  I just found this today.  I am a triathlete,too, and I am extremely excited to find some other people to talk tri with besides my poor, bored, husband.   Anyone out there from the Indiana area??????            

Michelle, Welcome to rst!  I thought that when I found rst that it would relieve my need to discuss triathlon incessantly with my apathetic non-triathlete spouse.  Unfortunately, it turned out that I had merely discovered a lots of new tri-info to discuss with him.  But, in all seriousness this is a great forum for learning about triathlon, plus to keep abreast of the latest, hottest, current trends, news, etc.  As a side I have meet a number of really nice people that I occassionally meet up with at races, etc. I have also meet several cyber-pals that I exchange e-mail with in a regular basis.  It is really neat to be able to exchange ideas and information with people who share common interests. Lucy from Florida

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I am quite new to this internet scene.  I just found this today.  I am a triathlete,too, and I am extremely excited to find some other people to talk tri with besides my poor, bored, husband.   Anyone out there from the Indiana area??????            

Welcome Aboard. You are now a member of the RST racing Team! I’m not from Indiana but am with you in spirit. As for your financially challenged, unenthusiastic spouse, I am with you all the way on that one. "TriSpouse" (my wife) has absolutely no interest in tris AT ALL. If it wasn’t for the stud muffins in skimpy bathing suits and the fact that she can tan at the beach while I race, I doubt she’d even know what a triathlon was. I tried at first to get her interested but to no avail. we now are content to let the other do as they want. TriDork

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I am quite new to this internet scene.  I just found this today.  I am a triathlete,too, and I am extremely excited to find some other people to talk tri with besides my poor, bored, husband.   Anyone out there from the Indiana area??????            

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Question:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                                     DECEMBER 8, 1994 Over this past season, the International Triathlon Union (ITU) experimented with drafting legal races for the elite in several World Cup Series events. For those events that chose to be drafting legal, it was a mutual agreement between ITU and the respective race management group. Over the last year, there has been some confusion about drafting legal races for TriFed/USA sanctioned events.  Triathlon Federation/USA is holding to its present rules that prohibits drafting for all athletes, elites and age groupers in all of its events not part of the ITU World Cup Series. ITU will continue to experiment with drafting legal races for the elite athletes in its World Cup Series in 1995.  The Federation will continue to support its rule of no drafting allowed in all of its sanctioned events not part of the Series.

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ITU will continue to experiment with drafting legal races for the elite athletes in its World Cup Series in 1995.  The Federation will continue to support its rule of no drafting allowed in all of its sanctioned events not part of the Series.

Bravo, Tri-Fed!  Now work on the ITU to try and make them drop drafting legal races altogether.  I don’t have much interest in seeing races with drafting and I certainly don’t want the 2000 Olympics to ahve a drafting-legal triathlon.  Unless some pressure is brought to bear on the ITU, that seems a distinct possibility. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                                     DECEMBER 8, 1994 Over this past season, the International Triathlon Union (ITU) experimented with drafting legal races for the elite in several World Cup Series events. For those events that chose to be drafting legal, it was a mutual agreement between ITU and the respective race management group. Over the last year, there has been some confusion about drafting legal races for TriFed/USA sanctioned events.  Triathlon Federation/USA is holding to its present rules that prohibits drafting for all athletes, elites and age groupers in all of its events not part of the ITU World Cup Series. ITU will continue to experiment with drafting legal races for the elite athletes in its World Cup Series in 1995.  The Federation will continue to support its rule of no drafting allowed in all of its sanctioned events not part of the Series.

Good.  Drafting sucks.

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Chapman) writes:

:…  Triathlon Federation/USA is :holding to its present rules that prohibits drafting for all athletes, :elites and age groupers in all of its events not part of the ITU World Cup :Series. Well atleast Trifed is listening to its members Bruce Platt

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Gotsick) writes: Bravo, Tri-Fed!  Now work on the ITU to try and make them drop drafting

legal races altogether.  I don’t have much interest in seeing races with drafting and I certainly don’t want the 2000 Olympics to ahve a drafting-legal triathlon.  Unless some pressure is brought to bear on the ITU, that seems a distinct possibility.<< I agree, but I don’t think the ITU cares what Tri-Fed thinks. After all, like SZag says we’re only one country.  Why don’t we just ignore the ITU and it’s small band of pros and go on with the sport we all enjoy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ITU will continue to experiment with drafting legal races for the elite athletes in its World Cup Series in 1995.  The Federation will continue to support its rule of no drafting allowed in all of its sanctioned events not part of the Series. Bravo, Tri-Fed!  Now work on the ITU to try and make them drop drafting legal races altogether.  I don’t have much interest in seeing races with drafting and I certainly don’t want the 2000 Olympics to ahve a drafting-legal triathlon.  Unless some pressure is brought to bear on the ITU, that seems a distinct possibility. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

This may be a rash comment but if i want to someday crash my trek 2100 because of the bozo on the side of me decided to pull out to fast or worse with out looking …….I’ll start Crit racing . Until then tell the ITU that the reason there is no drafting is easy: safety and fairness. Next time there on a training ride and in the Aero position lets hope they just another above average middle packer mark thank you for time I enjoy the reading. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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ITUathon<<

Hmmm…Has a nice ring to it. Another new word to add to the ever growing triathlon vocabulary. JJ

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<<I agree, but I don’t think the ITU cares what Tri-Fed thinks….  Why don’t we just ignore the ITU… and go on with the sport we all enjoy. As JJ knows, the time is coming, and is not far off, when the ITU may not care what the age-groupers think.  I think it would be only prudent if the age-groupers realize that sooner rather than later.   I also think there will come a point when Tri-Fed will have to choose sides, which will require some courage.  To some degree it already has, to its credit. QRman

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<<I agree, but I don’t think the ITU cares what Tri-Fed thinks….  Why don’t we just ignore the ITU… and go on with the sport we all enjoy. As JJ knows, the time is coming, and is not far off, when the ITU may not care what the age-groupers think.  I think it would be only prudent if the age-groupers realize that sooner rather than later.   I also think there will come a point when Tri-Fed will have to choose sides, which will require some courage.  To some degree it already has, to its credit. QRman

I think that you are right QRman, If the pros that are doing these draft legal races would just say no……there would not be a problem.   I know..I know, they are all trying to make a living and the cash is being offered up.  It is a very tough call for them but I think that they should try to stick together and call it out.  Will it work? I doubt it.. As long as there is money to be made ..someone will do it. just a thought zippman

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<I agree, but I don’t think the ITU cares what Tri-Fed thinks….  Why don’t we just ignore the ITU… and go on with the sport we all enjoy. As JJ knows, the time is coming, and is not far off, when the ITU may not care what the age-groupers think.  I think it would be only prudent if the age-groupers realize that sooner rather than later.   I also think there will come a point when Tri-Fed will have to choose sides, which will require some courage.  To some degree it already has, to its credit. QRman I think that you are right QRman, If the pros that are doing these draft legal races would just say no……there would not be a problem.  I know..I know, they are all trying to make a living and the cash is being offered up.  It is a very tough call for them but I think that they should try to stick together and call it out.  Will it work? I doubt it.. As long as there is money to be made ..someone will do it. just a thought zippman

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