Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve not had any other reports of a memory leak but if you drop me a mail with the details I’ll have a look at it. The 12 point limit is a limitation of the trial version I’m afraid, if you think that 12 points is too few I can always up it on the next release. Thanks for your comments anyway. Interesting stuff, but I have 2 problems with it. 1) It has a huge memory leak. 2) 12 waypoints is not enough for me to measure any known route, so I can’t assess it’s accuracy.

I use Trailgauge to measure my routes. This evening’s route was 3.6 miles according to the car, 3.56 miles according to Trailgauge. That’s good enough for my purposes – and I can’t measure it any more accurately if measuring directly from the map. As far as the vertical component of a route is concerned, it will make very little difference to the overall mileage of anyone running on roads. This takes some believing, but you can prove it by drawing a scale profile of the gradient. I like Trailgauge – you need to play around with settings and sizes of maps to get it working properly, but that’s not difficult. I’d recommend it. Paul

Response:

I’ve not had any other reports of a memory leak but if you drop me a mail with the details I’ll have a look at it.

I’ve emailed the info to you. — Brian Wakem

Response:

I’ve not had any other reports of a memory leak but if you drop me a mail with the details I’ll have a look at it. The 12 point limit is a limitation of the trial version I’m afraid, if you think that 12 points is too few I can always up it on the next release. Thanks for your comments anyway.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unless you route is extremely hilly it is unlikely to make that big difference – its more likely that either the mapblast scale isn’t spot on or your bike computer isn’t that well calibrated. At the risk of being accused a spammer, I’ve written some software that’s similar to RouteDigitizer but does take elevation into account. You can download it from http://www.trailgauge.com Interesting stuff, but I have 2 problems with it. 1) It has a huge memory leak. 2) 12 waypoints is not enough for me to measure any known route, so I can’t assess it’s accuracy. — Brian Wakem

Response:

Look at the following image. If the image isn’t lined up properly it should be a V with a line across it.     c        /        / a    /  b     / a and b are the route through the valley you took. c is the surface representation on a map. The correct distance is a + b. Not c. Now for the tricky part. Does your map software account for this difference?Some do and some don’t. If you are looking for a fully accurate way of route measuring then you should get software that you know takes this into account. Topo by Delorme ($100 in stores, $65 on e-bay) allows you to measure a route and account for the vertical. For a race to be certified by a governing body the course must be field measured with a wheel counting device. Count the number of times the wheel goes around, multiply by the circumference and you have your distance. Bicycle computers are not considered accurate enough for certification. Hope this helps, Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Folks, Just finsihed 3 slightly hilly two mile loops and was looking forward to a good time. But something was bothering me. To determine my speed I wanted to get an exact distance. Using Mapblast and RouteDigitizer, each loop was 1.95 mi long. But tracing my route with my Cateye bike computer the loop was closer to 2.1 mi long. Then I realized Mapblast measured only horizontal distance so that the vertical portion was eliminated. The bike odometer obviously measured both because the bike tire is in constant contact with the pavement. Finally, my question is for tracking purposes which one should be used. Also what distance is quoted for races. Thanks,  Art

Response:

: Hi Folks, : Just finsihed 3 slightly hilly two mile loops and was looking forward : to a good time. : But something was bothering me. To determine my speed I wanted to get : an exact distance. Using Mapblast and RouteDigitizer, each loop was : 1.95 mi long. But tracing my route with my Cateye bike computer the : loop was closer to 2.1 mi long. Then I realized Mapblast measured only : horizontal distance so that the vertical portion was eliminated. The : bike odometer obviously measured both because the bike tire is in : constant contact with the pavement. : Finally, my question is for tracking purposes which one should be : used. Also what distance is quoted for races. : Thanks, :  Art The actual distance covered (the slope distance) is used for races.  If you want computer software that can do this try DeLorne Topo USA.  Do you know for a fact that you bike computer is dead on?  Very few people have their bike computers properly calibrated.  Even with proper care a +- 1 to 2 % error is common on bike computers. Tom

Response:

Unless you route is extremely hilly it is unlikely to make that big difference – its more likely that either the mapblast scale isn’t spot on or your bike computer isn’t that well calibrated. At the risk of being accused a spammer, I’ve written some software that’s similar to RouteDigitizer but does take elevation into account. You can download it from http://www.trailgauge.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Folks, Just finsihed 3 slightly hilly two mile loops and was looking forward to a good time. But something was bothering me. To determine my speed I wanted to get an exact distance. Using Mapblast and RouteDigitizer, each loop was 1.95 mi long. But tracing my route with my Cateye bike computer the loop was closer to 2.1 mi long. Then I realized Mapblast measured only horizontal distance so that the vertical portion was eliminated. The bike odometer obviously measured both because the bike tire is in constant contact with the pavement. Finally, my question is for tracking purposes which one should be used. Also what distance is quoted for races. Thanks,  Art

Response:

Unless you route is extremely hilly it is unlikely to make that big difference – its more likely that either the mapblast scale isn’t spot on or your bike computer isn’t that well calibrated. At the risk of being accused a spammer, I’ve written some software that’s similar to RouteDigitizer but does take elevation into account. You can download it from http://www.trailgauge.com

Interesting stuff, but I have 2 problems with it. 1) It has a huge memory leak. 2) 12 waypoints is not enough for me to measure any known route, so I can’t assess it’s accuracy. — Brian Wakem

Response:

It’d appear that my effort was not totally wasted. Got me one actual user. pete – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Folks, Just finsihed 3 slightly hilly two mile loops and was looking forward to a good time. But something was bothering me. To determine my speed I wanted to get an exact distance. Using Mapblast and RouteDigitizer, each loop was 1.95 mi long. But tracing my route with my Cateye bike computer the loop was closer to 2.1 mi long. Then I realized Mapblast measured only horizontal distance so that the vertical portion was eliminated. The bike odometer obviously measured both because the bike tire is in constant contact with the pavement. Finally, my question is for tracking purposes which one should be used. Also what distance is quoted for races. Thanks,  Art

Response:

Hi Folks, Just finsihed 3 slightly hilly two mile loops and was looking forward to a good time. But something was bothering me. To determine my speed I wanted to get an exact distance. Using Mapblast and RouteDigitizer, each loop was 1.95 mi long. But tracing my route with my Cateye bike computer the loop was closer to 2.1 mi long. Then I realized Mapblast measured only horizontal distance so that the vertical portion was eliminated. The bike odometer obviously measured both because the bike tire is in constant contact with the pavement. Finally, my question is for tracking purposes which one should be used. Also what distance is quoted for races. Thanks,  Art

Response:

and was looking forward to a good time.

I don’t know what city you live in, but there’s usually some action down by docks, $20 will get you "round the world" "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Folks, Just finsihed 3 slightly hilly two mile loops and was looking forward to a good time. But something was bothering me. To determine my speed I wanted to get an exact distance. Using Mapblast and RouteDigitizer, each loop was 1.95 mi long. But tracing my route with my Cateye bike computer the loop was closer to 2.1 mi long. Then I realized Mapblast measured only horizontal distance so that the vertical portion was eliminated. The bike odometer obviously measured both because the bike tire is in constant contact with the pavement. Finally, my question is for tracking purposes which one should be used. Also what distance is quoted for races.<<

Distance on the ground. Thanks, Art

THUS SAYETH WithBACON

Response:

Hi Folks, Just finsihed 3 slightly hilly two mile loops and was looking forward to a good time.

Any time there’s hills, it’s a fun time But something was bothering me. To determine my speed I wanted to get an exact distance. Using Mapblast and RouteDigitizer, each loop was 1.95 mi long. But tracing my route with my Cateye bike computer the loop was closer to 2.1 mi long. Then I realized Mapblast measured only horizontal distance so that the vertical portion was eliminated. The bike odometer obviously measured both because the bike tire is in constant contact with the pavement. Finally, my question is for tracking purposes which one should be used.

In this case, I’d log the time and round the distance to 2 mi if you really want to log a distance. Some people log only time; others log both. I do log both, but don’t sweat the details of the distance since that’s only part of the picture – snow depth, terrain, etc has a lot more bearing on effort/pace involved in my case. For my training logs (injury prevention), I’m more interested in wear and tear on the body and distance of run is only one component. If hills are significant, then elevation gain, continuous length of uphill run, slope, etc may be relevant factors to record. With some exceptions, on paved roads the difference in distance is fairly minor for training purposes, unless there’s a particular reason why you want something "exactly" 400 m (as a hill repeat, for an example). We have a 3 mi out/back (up/down?) race that’s about 3mi via trail but has 3000+ ft vertical climb. In that case, it may make a difference, but the terrain is more of an issue than the distance in that case Some people here would probably advocate using some of these newer foot sensors that measure distance via accelerometer (or something). But I haven’t seen any comments on how well they work when wet – as in slogging through snow or traversing deep puddles or streams and whether there’s any hangups with brush on single-track. If someone out there has some experience, I’d be interested in knowing. Also what distance is quoted for races.

Some knowledgeable person (I’m not) might want to respond to this, but I believe that certified courses are measured with a wheel, hence the bike distance would be more appropriate. However, where I am in Alaska, many (most?) races aren’t certified, and I’m not really sure where they get the distances – probably from maps and/or bike odometers if you can get a bike there. Case in point, the bike leg of a triathlon was advertised as 10k on flat pavement – easily measured. It was closer to 13k as measured by my bike, car, and map. Got my money’s worth out of that event Many of our longer races here (and I suspect many places) nobody really knows how long they are, and most people don’t care about anything other than ballpark measurements (within 20%?) – it’s the elevation gain, glacial river crossings, and other adventures that make up the race. Hmm, maybe that wasn’t the context you were asking your question in Sorry, spring thaw has hit and I had my first single-track/farm-road run of the year on Sunday Hopefully, more snow will be melted soon so I can get to the hillier sections of trail. Dot

Response:

Question:

I realized today (on the train to my race) that I just need to run and finish 7 more races in NYC this year to qualify for the 2003 NYC Marathon. )))) So this is officially my long term goal now, and yes it’s VERY long term.  I don’t want to rush it with the marathoning. And I want my first one to be something very very special in my life. And what could be more special than running through all five boroughs of this great city, finishing in dear Central Park – down the road when I am probably living back in Europe? I’m so excited. Just needed to let the world know. nina

Response:

Might try it in 4 or 5 years from now. Got a cousin who lives in Boston.near n.y.c, in u.s.a. He visit here last summer visiting his dad. who lives about.Haven’t seen each others in ages. We want to climb in the higher snow mountains in future.? I am  a little North of Detroit Michigan. Kind of snow/ice some now and finding some parks are finely getting open for runners again. Yes this is what I am talking about. I sign up for 2 marathon this week end. martian 13.1 miles, and Trail 26.2 miles. Last year did martian 26.2 in 5:25 and Trail 13.1 in 2:40.   And tried an Ultra. didn’t finish. Limp back and hitch a ride from aid station.  There must be a zillion people do the NYC and Boston.

Response:

Good for you Nina. Train well and in good health. I am already looking forward to the race report in late 2003. Regards, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I realized today (on the train to my race) that I just need to run and finish 7 more races in NYC this year to qualify for the 2003 NYC Marathon. )))) So this is officially my long term goal now, and yes it’s VERY long term.  I don’t want to rush it with the marathoning. And I want my first one to be something very very special in my life. And what could be more special than running through all five boroughs of this great city, finishing in dear Central Park – down the road when I am probably living back in Europe? I’m so excited. Just needed to let the world know. nina

Response:

that’s great, Nina! an excellent and very realistic goal, i’d say. best of luck training and racing until that magical day. so far, my running goals haven’t really been set more than about 10 months ahead of the goal race date. it must feel a bit odd thinking about something like that so far down the road, but i’m sure the time will fly Cam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I realized today (on the train to my race) that I just need to run and finish 7 more races in NYC this year to qualify for the 2003 NYC Marathon. )))) So this is officially my long term goal now, and yes it’s VERY long term.  I don’t want to rush it with the marathoning. And I want my first one to be something very very special in my life. And what could be more special than running through all five boroughs of this great city, finishing in dear Central Park – down the road when I am probably living back in Europe? I’m so excited. Just needed to let the world know. nina

Response:

that’s great, Nina! an excellent and very realistic goal, i’d say. best of luck training and racing until that magical day. so far, my running goals haven’t really been set more than about 10 months ahead of the goal race date. it must feel a bit odd thinking about something like that so far down the road, but i’m sure the time will fly Cam

What did you decide about the NCM and the triathlon?  I saw you message a week late, so didn’t say anything then, but I’m having the same quandry.   I’ll be in shape for a 10K, and maybe even the half. I didn’t realize that there were two weeks between NCM weekend and and early bird triathlon.  (I’m doing the sprint..) I got into running last fall to get ready for triathlon, but I think I’m liking just running better.  My goal is still to do an Olympic-length marathon first, and maybe do a marathon next year. This is really going to cut into my golf time this summer.

Response:

Question:

We should have an ultra-modern pentathlon: 1) Jogging 2) Commuting 3) Computer-Programming 4) Step-Aerobics 5) Video-Programming

Wonder what kind of drug tests they’d be giving to computer programmers.  No Ginko-Biloba?

Response:

We should have an ultra-modern pentathlon: 1) Jogging 2) Commuting 3) Computer-Programming 4) Step-Aerobics 5) Video-Programming Wonder what kind of drug tests they’d be giving to computer programmers.  No Ginko-Biloba?

  Caffeine, silly.  Just watch what would happen if you sabotaged the coffee/jolt machines.   — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

We should have an ultra-modern pentathlon: 1) Jogging 2) Commuting 3) Computer-Programming 4) Step-Aerobics 5) Video-Programming

This isn’t the ultra-modern pentathlon. It’s the post-modern pentathlon.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We should have an ultra-modern pentathlon: 1) Jogging 2) Commuting 3) Computer-Programming 4) Step-Aerobics 5) Video-Programming Wonder what kind of drug tests they’d be giving to computer programmers. No Ginko-Biloba?  Caffeine, silly.  Just watch what would happen if you sabotaged the coffee/jolt machines.

Aww, man!  Now I’m gonna get labeled a "drug programmer"!

Response:

This isn’t the ultra-modern pentathlon. It’s the post-modern pentathlon.

Very clever Conal. Patrick

Response:

I see nothing wrong with people avoiding naming winners in the headers of messages.  Something like "That Triathalon Was Great" works just as well as "Wasn’t Joe Smoe Great Winning The Triathalon" and it doesn’t ruin it for others.  Both can have the same message. -jeff

Thanks. I apparently missed that line about the "header". It would have been nice to have it in caps. C

Response:

Conal, there is no desire to censor. Andy even points out that he is not opposed to people going on as long as they like in the body of the message but to avoid giving results in the header.  This seems like proper netiquette to me.  Imagine avoiding the news all day and then going onto the newsgroup for the first time in several days and seeing a header:  Favor Hamilton wins Gold!  It could ruin watching it for some people. A personal confession:  I thought that I could hold out and not peak at the websites with results, but the curiosity gets the better of me so I look at triathlon results.  However, knowing the results of the swimming competition did not keep me from watching.  It sucks when you break the existing WR and still come in second to the Thorpedo and his air guitar buddies:) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Just a gentle reminder that some folks are good Olympic coverage deprived, like us here  in the US. That means we have to wait 24 hours to see the action. Yes it may be old news to you but to some of us it isn’t and we may want to see the race unfold. I’m avoiding anything that looks like triathlon on tv, radio or internet until I see the race tonite (ironically just when the women are racing) If you want to root for your favorite athlete please do so in a way that won’t report results in the header of your message. Go on as long as you like in the message but please have a heart don’t spoil. Thanks for the cooperation. I’m trying not to be the rec.running ettiquite police, just trying to make an enjoyable environment for all. Peace, Andy Hmm…we’re treading on dangerous ground here, aren’t we Andy? It’s asking others to censor what they want to talk about. I can understand your desire for wanting to find out the results when you watch T.V. However, since that’s your desire, it would probably be the right thing for you to avoid rec.running while you know your sports are being covered, instead of asking others to please not spoil it for you. Don’t you think so? Anyway, not trying to set up a war here or anything. Just wanting to point out that this is the internet and while most folks here are probably in the U.S, Canada region (or so it seems) it still doesn’t exclude others who aren’t in this region. Oh…anyways, Canada get live coverage. Peace, C

Response:

It’s TRIATHLON!  There is no second A despite how Bob Costas pronounces it. Just as it is not the decathAlon.  Or heptathAlon or pentathAlon. BTW, if we now have the modern pentathlon what is the ancient pentathlon?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I see nothing wrong with people avoiding naming winners in the headers of messages.  Something like "That Triathalon Was Great" works just as well as "Wasn’t Joe Smoe Great Winning The Triathalon" and it doesn’t ruin it for others.  Both can have the same message. -jeff Hi, Just a gentle reminder that some folks are good Olympic coverage deprived, like us here  in the US. That means we have to wait 24 hours to see the action. Yes it may be old news to you but to some of us it isn’t and we may want to see the race unfold. I’m avoiding anything that looks like triathlon on tv, radio or internet until I see the race tonite (ironically just when the women are racing) If you want to root for your favorite athlete please do so in a way that won’t report results in the header of your message. Go on as long as you like in the message but please have a heart don’t spoil. Thanks for the cooperation. I’m trying not to be the rec.running ettiquite police, just trying to make an enjoyable environment for all. Peace, Andy Hmm…we’re treading on dangerous ground here, aren’t we Andy? It’s asking others to censor what they want to talk about. I can understand your desire for wanting to find out the results when you watch T.V. However, since that’s your desire, it would probably be the right thing for you to avoid rec.running while you know your sports are being covered, instead of asking others to please not spoil it for you. Don’t you think so? Anyway, not trying to set up a war here or anything. Just wanting to point out that this is the internet and while most folks here are probably in the U.S, Canada region (or so it seems) it still doesn’t exclude others who aren’t in this region. Oh…anyways, Canada get live coverage. Peace, C

Response:

It’s TRIATHLON!  There is no second A despite how Bob Costas pronounces it. Just as it is not the decathAlon.  Or heptathAlon or pentathAlon.

  Thank you. BTW, if we now have the modern pentathlon what is the ancient pentathlon?

  Sabertooth tiger wrestling, javelin tossing at mammoths (often a combined event with the ‘mammoth outrunning’ contest), flint knapping, swimming the Baltic (more challenging then as the crustal rebound had barely started, but they did do it crosswise rather than lengthwise), and a run along the Danube. — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Response:

It’s TRIATHLON!  There is no second A despite how Bob Costas pronounces it. Just as it is not the decathAlon.  Or heptathAlon or pentathAlon.   Thank you. BTW, if we now have the modern pentathlon what is the ancient pentathlon?   Sabertooth tiger wrestling, javelin tossing at mammoths (often a combined event with the ‘mammoth outrunning’ contest), flint knapping, swimming the Baltic (more challenging then as the crustal rebound had barely started, but they did do it crosswise rather than lengthwise), and a run along the Danube.

We should have an ultra-modern pentathlon: 1) Jogging 2) Commuting 3) Computer-Programming 4) Step-Aerobics 5) Video-Programming — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur

activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New

Sciences

Response:

Hi, Just a gentle reminder that some folks are good Olympic coverage deprived, like us here  in the US. That means we have to wait 24 hours to see the action. Yes it may be old news to you but to some of us it isn’t and we may want to see the race unfold. I’m avoiding anything that looks like triathlon on tv, radio or internet until I see the race tonite (ironically just when the women are racing) If you want to root for your favorite athlete please do so in a way that won’t report results in the header of your message. Go on as long as you like in the message but please have a heart don’t spoil. Thanks for the cooperation. I’m trying not to be the rec.running ettiquite police, just trying to make an enjoyable environment for all. Peace, Andy

Response:

I see nothing wrong with people avoiding naming winners in the headers of messages.  Something like "That Triathalon Was Great" works just as well as "Wasn’t Joe Smoe Great Winning The Triathalon" and it doesn’t ruin it for others.  Both can have the same message. -jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Just a gentle reminder that some folks are good Olympic coverage deprived, like us here  in the US. That means we have to wait 24 hours to see the action. Yes it may be old news to you but to some of us it isn’t and we may want to see the race unfold. I’m avoiding anything that looks like triathlon on tv, radio or internet until I see the race tonite (ironically just when the women are racing) If you want to root for your favorite athlete please do so in a way that won’t report results in the header of your message. Go on as long as you like in the message but please have a heart don’t spoil. Thanks for the cooperation. I’m trying not to be the rec.running ettiquite police, just trying to make an enjoyable environment for all. Peace, Andy Hmm…we’re treading on dangerous ground here, aren’t we Andy? It’s asking others to censor what they want to talk about. I can understand your desire for wanting to find out the results when you watch T.V. However, since that’s your desire, it would probably be the right thing for you to avoid rec.running while you know your sports are being covered, instead of asking others to please not spoil it for you. Don’t you think so? Anyway, not trying to set up a war here or anything. Just wanting to point out that this is the internet and while most folks here are probably in the U.S, Canada region (or so it seems) it still doesn’t exclude others who aren’t in this region. Oh…anyways, Canada get live coverage. Peace, C

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Just a gentle reminder that some folks are good Olympic coverage deprived, like us here  in the US. That means we have to wait 24 hours to see the action. Yes it may be old news to you but to some of us it isn’t and we may want to see the race unfold. I’m avoiding anything that looks like triathlon on tv, radio or internet until I see the race tonite (ironically just when the women are racing) If you want to root for your favorite athlete please do so in a way that won’t report results in the header of your message. Go on as long as you like in the message but please have a heart don’t spoil. Thanks for the cooperation. I’m trying not to be the rec.running ettiquite police, just trying to make an enjoyable environment for all. Peace, Andy

Hmm…we’re treading on dangerous ground here, aren’t we Andy? It’s asking others to censor what they want to talk about. I can understand your desire for wanting to find out the results when you watch T.V. However, since that’s your desire, it would probably be the right thing for you to avoid rec.running while you know your sports are being covered, instead of asking others to please not spoil it for you. Don’t you think so? Anyway, not trying to set up a war here or anything. Just wanting to point out that this is the internet and while most folks here are probably in the U.S, Canada region (or so it seems) it still doesn’t exclude others who aren’t in this region. Oh…anyways, Canada get live coverage. Peace, C

Response:

Question:

I am looking for a used 47-49cm bike for tri’s, etc. and can’t find many. Would I be able to get a bigger frame (50-52+) and put 650 wheels on it to put it in my size range?  Are there other problems with doing this? Thanks, Andrea

Andrea,     I don’t know if this helps, but I just bought a 49cm Cannondale frameset (650c) for my sister, and it costed around $550. However, it has road geometry.

Response:

NO, doesn’t work that way. Top tube is what’s important, not stand over height. Steve’s Multisport – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a used 47-49cm bike for tri’s, etc. and can’t find many. Would I be able to get a bigger frame (50-52+) and put 650 wheels on it to put it in my size range?  Are there other problems with doing this? Thanks, Andrea

Response:

Andrea, we seem to need the same frame size. I have a 28" inseam and I’m 5′5" small.  I have had/ do have the following bikes:  Litespeed Blade in 51cm, Aegis Swift in 48cm, and Softride Powerwing in 48cm. All had 650 wheels, which were perfect for that small of a frame. Of all three bikes, the Blade was the best/fastest in the aero position, however uncomfortable for training upright, and the 51cm frame was too big, I should have had a 49. The Aegis was definitely the most nimble, most enjoyable bike to ride, and the Powerwing the most comfy for really long rides. I always found the small frame/650 wheel combo to be just about right. I don’t think someone of my stature really will ever benefit from 700 wheels, the bikes of my size are proportioned better with 650’s, or so it seems to me. Ever see a 48 cm frame with 700 wheels – it even looks strange, all wheels, no frame. Even with the small wheels, on the Aegis there was a tiny bit of overlap, but if I had to choose between one of three bikes all over again I’d go for the Aegis in a moment. Keep looking, you’ll find what you’re looking for. The Aegis Swift is marketed primarily at the female marketplace, I would highly suggest their bike – www.aegisbicycles.com Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a used 47-49cm bike for tri’s, etc. and can’t find many. Would I be able to get a bigger frame (50-52+) and put 650 wheels on it to put it in my size range?  Are there other problems with doing this? Thanks, Andrea

Response:

I am looking for a used 47-49cm bike for tri’s, etc. and can’t find many. Would I be able to get a bigger frame (50-52+) and put 650 wheels on it to put it in my size range?  Are there other problems with doing this? Thanks, Andrea

Response:

Smaller wheels would give the bike a lower stand-over height, but your pedals would be closer to the ground than is normal, thus increasing the odds that you’ll scrape one while going around a turn. You’d also have a problem getting the pads of your aero bars low enough, something that is often a problem even for average-sized individuals riding larger bikes. A larger frame will also be longer, meaning that the reach to the handlebars would likely leave you too stretched out. Of course, all of this is really a bit of a moot point, as in most cases it is impossible to use 650C wheels with a frame and fork designed for 700C, as the brake pads can’t be lowered enough to reach the rims. I don’t know where to recommend you look to find a used tri-bike in the size you need, but for the reasons mentioned above I don’t think the retro-fit approach you suggest is a good idea (even if you could cobble something together). Andrew Coggan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a used 47-49cm bike for tri’s, etc. and can’t find many. Would I be able to get a bigger frame (50-52+) and put 650 wheels on it to put it in my size range?  Are there other problems with doing this? Thanks, Andrea

Response:

Most Tri bike companies have smallerframes available and some can build custom frames to suit your sizing. To get a reasonable bike  in 47-49cm  you would most likely need 650c wheels to avoid front wheel overlap etc. One of the most important aspects of fitting is toptube length so just going to a bigger seattube may make the bike far to long. Have a look at the following sites and see what they recommend. I know Elite Bicycles has 47cm frames available as I just sent them some at 6.30am this morning ! http://www.slowtwitch.com http://www.cervelo.com http://www.elitebicycles.com http://www.curloo.com http://www.bicyclesports.com Lloyd — Deewal Pty Ltd. web:          http://www.deewal.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a used 47-49cm bike for tri’s, etc. and can’t find many. Would I be able to get a bigger frame (50-52+) and put 650 wheels on it to put it in my size range?  Are there other problems with doing this? Thanks, Andrea

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Used bikes in that range are at a premium. Women use them, as do young triathletes. There are some new ones that can run around $800, Cannondale and others, with 650 wheels. With a LBS you can get free lifetime adjustments on most new bikes, which is good for a new triathlete/cyclist. They would also fit you properly, in theory. In the long run, it is sometimes cheaper to spend more money on a decent inexpensive bike to begin with, rather than getting a used one that doesn’t fit, and then later having to get one that does. Tim www.tri-team.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a used 47-49cm bike for tri’s, etc. and can’t find many. Would I be able to get a bigger frame (50-52+) and put 650 wheels on it to put it in my size range?  Are there other problems with doing this? Thanks, Andrea

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Question:

Share your story, I’m interested to know.  Mine was last week it was -37 degrees celcius.  I live in Nothern Ontario.

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-27′ F. Alaska.

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-25 F during the 78 blizzard.  I was 9 years old at the time and I ran 1 mile to my grandma’s house.  I had to stop in a previously dug hole in the snow, to warm up.  This was in Ohio.

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-27′ F. Alaska.

nippy huh?  How did you keep your feet from freezing? That is the part that gets me. Laurie

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Share your story, I’m interested to know.  Mine was last week it was -37 degrees celcius.  I live in Nothern Ontario.

-52C.  I live in Oxford, UK (but the run was at Halley Bay, Antarctica in August 1970)

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-27′ F. Alaska.

-71 without the Wind chill factor. Delta Junction, Alaska. I only scurried from one building to another. Not quite a run. — Caveat Lector! Doug "still have parts that remember the cold" Freese  

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Caveat Lector! Doug "still have parts that remember the cold" Freese

Reminds me of my favorite "Seinfeld" line. From Elaine: "They shrink?! I don’t know how you guys walk around with those things." — Beverly Brandt A blow by blow account of my efforts to remain fit during pregnancy: http://bevbrandt.home.mindspring.com/ bev brandt at mindspring dot com Before you buy.

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Actual temperature -25 F, but wind chill in the -80 to -90 range in Northern Wisconsin in January, 1982.  We had a stretch of several very windy days in a row in extremely cold temperatures, and I had to get out on the 3rd day to keep the cabin fever at bay. Surprisingly, I dressed so warmly that when I returned with the wind at my back, I took off my gloves for part of the run!  

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Reminds me of my favorite "Seinfeld" line. From Elaine: "They shrink?! I don’t know how you guys walk around with those things."

LOL – a true classic. A blow by blow account of my efforts to remain fit during pregnancy:

Talk about lines to avoid….:) — Caveat Lector! Doug "shrinking into the sunset" Freese  

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today      23deg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -37 C? You are tha man!! Coldest I’ve ever run in was about 10 C. BRrrrrr. Share your story, I’m interested to know.  Mine was last week it was -37 degrees celcius.  I live in Nothern Ontario.

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-37 C? You are tha man!! Coldest I’ve ever run in was about 10 C. BRrrrrr. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Share your story, I’m interested to know.  Mine was last week it was -37 degrees celcius.  I live in Nothern Ontario.

Response:

Share your story, I’m interested to know.  Mine was last week it was -37 degrees celcius.  I live in Nothern Ontario.

I live in SW Virginia, so it doesn’t get nasty, freeze your skin cold here too often, but several years ago, we got a 4′ snow and the temperature hit 8 degrees with a 25 mile an hour wind. I made it out for a 25 minute run. Wes

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When I was young and lived in Great Falls, Montana I had a gym teacher who would run in ALL conditions, including -30 F. (This doesn’t include the wind chill, and it’s always windy in GF.)  I thought he would freeze his lungs and trachea, but evidently he never did. He ran in these conditions regularly. The coldest I’ve personally run in is -4 F, and the drawbacks were that my walkman wouldn’t work, and that certain areas of exposed skin would alternately get sort of stingy and tingly–like my lips would sting, then they’d warm up and my left ear would sting, then it’d warm up and my forehead would sting, etc. Also, I had to wear super warm mittens (not gloves) or my fingers would hurt, and, when it was near 0 F I would wear long undies under my tights.  I thought running at near 0 temperatures was fine, but wouldn’t try much colder because I’d fear my lungs or throat would be hurt–when it’s cold enough that your nostrils stick shut tight when you inhale, it just seems too cold. But apparently some people do okay with it. Jessica – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Share your story, I’m interested to know.  Mine was last week it was -37 degrees celcius.  I live in Nothern Ontario.

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-60 degrees F but there was absolutely no wind. I did a ten mile run in the wilds of northern Ontario – Armstrong, ONtario, one of the coldest towns in Canada. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I was young and lived in Great Falls, Montana I had a gym teacher who would run in ALL conditions, including -30 F. (This doesn’t include the wind chill, and it’s always windy in GF.)  I thought he would freeze his lungs and trachea, but evidently he never did. He ran in these conditions regularly. The coldest I’ve personally run in is -4 F, and the drawbacks were that my walkman wouldn’t work, and that certain areas of exposed skin would alternately get sort of stingy and tingly–like my lips would sting, then they’d warm up and my left ear would sting, then it’d warm up and my forehead would sting, etc. Also, I had to wear super warm mittens (not gloves) or my fingers would hurt, and, when it was near 0 F I would wear long undies under my tights.  I thought running at near 0 temperatures was fine, but wouldn’t try much colder because I’d fear my lungs or throat would be hurt–when it’s cold enough that your nostrils stick shut tight when you inhale, it just seems too cold. But apparently some people do okay with it. Jessica Share your story, I’m interested to know.  Mine was last week it was -37 degrees celcius.  I live in Nothern Ontario.

Ken Parker Runner’s Web A running & triathlon resource site. http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html

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-60 degrees F but there was absolutely no wind. I did a ten mile run in the wilds of northern Ontario – Armstrong, ONtario, one of the coldest towns in Canada.

So….how does this feel?  Do your lungs or throat hurt?  How far did you run? Do you need to wear a mask or something so your face doesn’t get frostbitten?  I’m curious…Maybe running in the cold isn’t as dangerous as I’d guessed. Jessica

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-71 without the Wind chill factor. Delta Junction, Alaska. I only scurried from one building to another. Not quite a run. — Caveat Lector! Doug "still have parts that remember the cold" Freese

LOL at this. Scurried !  Doug, Your snow dance worked.!!! It’s snowing in Indpls!!!. Off for a snow run. Laurie" we get to ski afterall"

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    A couple of years ago I did a five mile run at -11 F.  The cold didn’t bother me at all.  I seem to handle it much better than I do heat.     My only problem on that day was with a couple of dogs.  These were animals that I had passed on my daily run for years.  They had always barked at me, but never bothered to do more.  I don’t know if the cold aggravated them or what, but they chased me down.  One of them bit me in the behind, tearing through several layers of clothing. Michelle in Indy

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-27′ F. Alaska. nippy huh?  How did you keep your feet from freezing? That is the part that gets me.

The feet?  My coldest running temp was ~ – 18

Question:

It is conventional wisdom, and one that I have espoused, that you really don’t need to worry about hydration on short runs, say up to an hour or so. Nancy Clark, writing in October’s Running Journal, provides a different view and it’s made me stop and think. She cites a study (Med Sci Exer 27:200, 1995) in which athletes were asked to complete, on three occasions, an exercise test designed to simulate a 25-mile bicycling race. They biked hard for 50 minutes, (80 % VO2 max) and then completed a 10-minute sprint-to-the-finish during which they worked as hard as they could. When they drank lots of water (48 oz., the amount needed to offset dehydration) they sprinted six percent faster compared to the baseline trail during which they drank only seven ounces of water in the initial 50 minutes. When they drank 300 calories of a sports drink during the first 50 minutes, they improved 12 percent over baseline during the sprint. As she puts it: "Be you an ordinary athlete or an Olympic hopeful, this study means: Consuming an easily digested combination of water + carbs (such as a sports drink or water + hard candies, defizzed cola, figs, gels, etc.) will help you exercise harder and better at the end of an hour. Wouldn’t you want to be 12 percent better than your (poorly fueled) opponent when the event is down to the wire?" I would. Comments? Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

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Mike, I have run where a sport drink was available at every water stop and it seemed to help quite a bit.  Now I sort of dread races without sports drinks. After reading you post, I envisioned people with bicycles pulling along side runners and taking orders for food and then having it ready by the next water stop. Heck maybe the runners should just carry cell phones with them that have SMS messaging capabilities so they don’t have to talk to make an order. My concern is that, if you eat or drink sports drinks, during a race, will you ever reach the stage where you start burning fat?  I also wonder if Pheidippides carried food with him. Thanks,         Roger

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is conventional wisdom, and one that I have espoused, that you really don’t need to worry about hydration on short runs, say up to an hour or so. Nancy Clark, writing in October’s Running Journal, provides a different view and it’s made me stop and think. She cites a study (Med Sci Exer 27:200, 1995) in which athletes were asked to complete, on three occasions, an exercise test designed to simulate a 25-mile bicycling race. They biked hard for 50 minutes, (80 % VO2 max) and then completed a 10-minute sprint-to-the-finish during which they worked as hard as they could. When they drank lots of water (48 oz., the amount needed to offset dehydration) they sprinted six percent faster compared to the baseline trail during which they drank only seven ounces of water in the initial 50 minutes. When they drank 300 calories of a sports drink during the first 50 minutes, they improved 12 percent over baseline during the sprint. As she puts it: "Be you an ordinary athlete or an Olympic hopeful, this study means: Consuming an easily digested combination of water + carbs (such as a sports drink or water + hard candies, defizzed cola, figs, gels, etc.) will help you exercise harder and better at the end of an hour. Wouldn’t you want to be 12 percent better than your (poorly fueled) opponent when the event is down to the wire?" I would. Comments? Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

Mike: I’ve never tried to quantify any benefit, but I carry water on all my runs. Although I had no sense of dehydration on runs shorter than an hour, I did get thirsty. The first time I carried water on a sub-hour run, I so enjoyed "wetting my whistle" that I wondered why I’d ever gone without. Thanks for bringing this to our attention; I may switch to Quic Disc. David In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is conventional wisdom, and one that I have espoused, that you really don’t need to worry about hydration on short runs, say up to an hour or so. Nancy Clark, writing in October’s Running Journal, provides a different view and it’s made me stop and think. She cites a study (Med Sci Exer 27:200, 1995) in which athletes were asked to complete, on three occasions, an exercise test designed to simulate a 25-mile bicycling race. They biked hard for 50 minutes, (80 % VO2 max) and then completed a 10-minute sprint-to-the-finish during which they worked as hard as they could. When they drank lots of water (48 oz., the amount needed to offset dehydration) they sprinted six percent faster compared to the baseline trail during which they drank only seven ounces of water in the initial 50 minutes. When they drank 300 calories of a sports drink during the first 50 minutes, they improved 12 percent over baseline during the sprint. As she puts it: "Be you an ordinary athlete or an Olympic hopeful, this study means: Consuming an easily digested combination of water + carbs (such as a sports drink or water + hard candies, defizzed cola, figs, gels, etc.) will help you exercise harder and better at the end of an hour. Wouldn’t you want to be 12 percent better than your (poorly fueled) opponent when the event is down to the wire?" I would. Comments? Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

It is conventional wisdom, and one that I have espoused, that you really don’t need to worry about hydration on short runs, say up to an hour or so.

  Interesting report.  But to a degree, not so surprising in that I’ve never considered an hour ’short’.  It the difference were significant at 30 minutes, then I would truly be surprised.  As it is, …, interesting and does mean that I’ll be investigating fluid and fuel methods for shorter races than I’ve previously considered. When they drank 300 calories of a sports drink during the first 50 minutes, they improved 12 percent over baseline during the sprint.

  Roughly speaking, taking 1 minute off the 60 minute race (10% faster for the last 10 minutes).     Still to be answered is what happens when the first 50 minutes are done at a more race-like HR (80% is pretty light for me in running).   Could be more significant than that, might be less significant. (Intuition suggests the former, but reality doesn’t care much about what I think is intuitive, hence experiments.) — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It is conventional wisdom, and one that I have espoused, that you really don’t need to worry about hydration on short runs, say up to an hour or so. Nancy Clark, writing in October’s Running Journal, provides a different view and it’s made me stop and think. She cites a study (Med Sci Exer 27:200, 1995) in which athletes were asked to complete, on three occasions, an exercise test designed to simulate a 25-mile bicycling race. They biked hard for 50 minutes, (80 % VO2 max) and then completed a 10-minute sprint-to-the-finish during which they worked as hard as they could. When they drank lots of water (48 oz., the amount needed to offset dehydration) they sprinted six percent faster compared to the baseline trail during which they drank only seven ounces of water in the initial 50 minutes. When they drank 300 calories of a sports drink during the first 50 minutes, they improved 12 percent over baseline during the sprint.

You have to read about the exact experimental setup to know if they discovered anything or not. It sounds like they did the same thing 3 times.  1 50 minutes cycling with 7 oz water  2 50 minutes cycling with 48 oz water, but now knew a little    about the test, saved a little, or knew more about their    limits, and did 6% better.  3 50 minutes cycling with 300 calories, but now knew a lot    about the test, paced themselves better, and did 12% better. Without knowing a lot about how the experiment was done, what kind of controls they used, what ages were involved, it is hard to know if there is a benefit. Brent — Brent Beach, Victoria, BC

Response:

I rarely drink in 5k races but always do in 10k or longer although I don’t drink anywhere near 48oz an hour.  One flaw I see in the study is that it ignores the time cost associated with the act of drinking and the potential stomach upset of drinking too much while running.  Suppose a typical 5K runner takes 20 minutes or one third of an hour.  According to the research that runner should drink about 16oz during the race to remain fully hydrated (assuming a constant rate of water loss).  IMO this is far too much fluid to consume and still maintain 5k race pace.  Even in a one hour race, I think 48oz if far too much fluid for a runner to take in without significantly slowing down. It would be like using a wetsuit in a 1/4 mile triathlon swim.  Any time you save using the wetsuit would probably be lost in the additional transition time removing the suit. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is conventional wisdom, and one that I have espoused, that you really don’t need to worry about hydration on short runs, say up to an hour or so. Nancy Clark, writing in October’s Running Journal, provides a different view and it’s made me stop and think. She cites a study (Med Sci Exer 27:200, 1995) in which athletes were asked to complete, on three occasions, an exercise test designed to simulate a 25-mile bicycling race. They biked hard for 50 minutes, (80 % VO2 max) and then completed a 10-minute sprint-to-the-finish during which they worked as hard as they could. When they drank lots of water (48 oz., the amount needed to offset dehydration) they sprinted six percent faster compared to the baseline trail during which they drank only seven ounces of water in the initial 50 minutes. When they drank 300 calories of a sports drink during the first 50 minutes, they improved 12 percent over baseline during the sprint. As she puts it: "Be you an ordinary athlete or an Olympic hopeful, this study means: Consuming an easily digested combination of water + carbs (such as a sports drink or water + hard candies, defizzed cola, figs, gels, etc.) will help you exercise harder and better at the end of an hour. Wouldn’t you want to be 12 percent better than your (poorly fueled) opponent when the event is down to the wire?" I would. Comments? Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

I rarely drink in 5k races but always do in 10k or longer although I don’t drink anywhere near 48oz an hour.  One flaw I see in the study is that it ignores the time cost associated with the act of drinking and the potential stomach upset of drinking too much while running.  Suppose a typical 5K runner takes 20 minutes or one third of an hour.  According to the research that runner should drink about 16oz during the race to remain fully hydrated (assuming a constant rate of water loss).  IMO this is far too much fluid to consume and still maintain 5k race pace.  Even in a one hour race, I think 48oz if far too much fluid for a runner to take in without significantly slowing down.

Good point. It would be very difficult to drink that much on the run. But I assume that taking in a lesser amount would still have some benefits over not drinking at all.   While thinking about this issue,  I realized that I frequently run for an hour without drinking. Yet, I would never consider doing a 25 mile bike without water.   Mike "See ya’ at GFT" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

In the past week, I just bought an ‘InGear’ hip pack that holds a 20 oz. bottle.  I’ve been using it on my runs that are going to be an hour or longer.  Prior to that I wasn’t taking anything and just hoping to see water fountains somewhere along the way.  I can’t believe the difference it has made in the way I feel at the end of the run.  I don’t feel drained.  I feel like I could have gone further. I’ve been using that as a motivation to drive myself harder and farther. Now, at the end of an hour+ run, I will say that there still is some water left in the 20 oz. bottle, so, it does seem to me that 48+ would be a bit much too. The only part I’me still getting used to is having that hip pack on and feeling the weight of the water sloshing around behind my back.  I keep thinking someone is sneaking up on me.  And since I’m using running at 5:00am whens it’s still pitch dark here, you can imagine how ridiculous I look constantly looking over my shoulder. ) Robert "now if they could just fit a portajohn in one of those" Megert Happy Running!

Response:

In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is conventional wisdom, and one that I have espoused, that you really don’t need to worry about hydration on short runs, say up to an hour or so. Nancy Clark, writing in October’s Running Journal, provides a different view and it’s made me stop and think. She cites a study (Med Sci Exer 27:200, 1995) in which athletes were asked to complete, on three occasions, an exercise test designed to simulate a 25-mile bicycling race. They biked hard for 50 minutes, (80 % VO2 max) and then completed a 10-minute sprint-to-the-finish during which they worked as hard as they could. When they drank lots of water (48 oz., the amount needed to offset dehydration) they sprinted six percent faster compared to the baseline trail during which they drank only seven ounces of water in the initial 50 minutes. When they drank 300 calories of a sports drink during the first 50 minutes, they improved 12 percent over baseline during the sprint. As she puts it: "Be you an ordinary athlete or an Olympic hopeful, this study means: Consuming an easily digested combination of water + carbs (such as a sports drink or water + hard candies, defizzed cola, figs, gels, etc.) will help you exercise harder and better at the end of an hour. Wouldn’t you want to be 12 percent better than your (poorly fueled) opponent when the event is down to the wire?" I would. Comments? Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Very interesting… and timely!    I have put a lot of thought into this in the past few (hot) months and recently came to the conclusion that I sould be taking more water during my 6-12 mile runs. If I have no water in the 12 miler, I see a definate degradation of performance in the last 3-4 miles.    If I read the study correctly, it would seem that the area being ignored by many distance athletes is the 40-90 min. range. My guess is that the hydration should be taking place during the entire event, so as to provide a more even energy release. Accordingly, I have planned on water caches in next Sun. 15 miler at 3, 6, 9 & 12 (8oz.). As far as races go, I have always felt that the time taken to ingest fluids does not begin to be offset by their benefits unless the races are 10K, or longer. The general philosophy of ‘earlier is better’ would still probably apply to any distance. How about that fall weather! (N.E. states – 70 and sunny) — … tramps like us, Before you buy.

Response:

Mike "See ya’ at GFT" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Does this mean we loose the ??:?? soon? Like to make any predictions/wishes? IanB – Isn’t 3pm a funny time to start a triathlon?

Response:

Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:?? Does this mean we loose the ??:?? soon?

Yep. Oct 23rd. Like to make any predictions/wishes?

If things go well, I hope to get close to 15 hrs even.  If I can get on to the run by 9hrs-30 min, and if my knees hold up ( they didn’t last time) I’ll have a good shot at it. If things go very, very well, I can get to the 14’s.   But you can’t count on anything. It’s a long race and there are just too many variables and bad things that can happen. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

It is conventional wisdom, and one that I have espoused, that you really don’t need to worry about hydration on short runs, say up to an hour or so. Nancy Clark, writing in October’s Running Journal, provides a different view and it’s made me stop and think. She cites a study (Med Sci Exer 27:200, 1995) in which athletes were asked to complete, on three occasions, an exercise test designed to simulate a 25-mile bicycling race. They biked hard for 50 minutes, (80 % VO2 max) and then completed a 10-minute sprint-to-the-finish during which they worked as hard as they could.

I don’t understand the conditions of this test. It is hardly a short run test because they have gone on for an hour. 50 minutes biking is much easier than 50 minutes of running. What is this test suposed to simulate? A short bike ride or a long run? It seems to me combining the two simulates a biathlon. When they drank lots of water (48 oz., the amount needed to offset dehydration) they sprinted six percent faster compared to the baseline trail during which they drank only seven ounces of water in the initial 50 minutes.

This raises another question. What is considered a sprint? Is it the 10 minutes after the biking or the sprint at the finish? What exactly are they running faster? The end or the overall run?It takes a certain amount of time for the water to be absorbed. By the time the 5k is over, for even the very slow, the water is still being aborbed by the body. This is assuming drinking in the first few steps of a 5k. In most 5k’s I’ve been in the water stop is half way. A runner finishing at 20 minutes has only 10 minutes for the water to be absorbed and take effect. When they drank 300 calories of a sports drink during the first 50 minutes, they improved 12 percent over baseline during the sprint.

Once again I don’t think this test is a good comparison to the real world. What would be the effects of the same participants if they were to drink and not bike for the first 50 minutes. Triathletes excluded, none of us enter a 5k and go for a 50 minute bike ride just before the start. As she puts it: "Be you an ordinary athlete or an Olympic hopeful, this study means: Consuming an easily digested combination of water + carbs (such as a sports drink or water + hard candies, defizzed cola, figs, gels, etc.) will help you exercise harder and better at the end of an hour. Wouldn’t you want to be 12 percent better than your (poorly fueled) opponent when the event is down to the wire?"

This is just stating that one should be well hydrated before a race. We all know that. The fact that it improves performance shouldn’t be a shock. A well hydrated machine is much more effecient. I fail to see any evidence that would make me change my pre-race hydrating ritual. I would disagree with Mike’s statement that hydrating isn’t important for races under an hour. I make sure I’m hydrated before any race of any length. Whether or not I take a drink during the race is a matter of if I want to or not. Peace Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would. Comments? Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

It is conventional wisdom, and one that I have espoused, that you really don’t need to worry about hydration on short runs, say up to an hour or so.

<snipped a lot of stuff As she puts it: "Be you an ordinary athlete or an Olympic hopeful, this study means: Consuming an easily digested combination of water + carbs (such as a sports drink or water + hard candies, defizzed cola, figs, gels, etc.) will help you exercise harder and better at the end of an hour. Wouldn’t you want to be 12 percent better than your (poorly fueled) opponent when the event is down to the wire?" This is just stating that one should be well hydrated before a race. We all know that.

Well, no. The entire experiment was about hydration DURING exercise. It said nothing about pre-race hydration. I fail to see any evidence that would make me change my pre-race hydrating ritual.

Good, there wasn’t any. Which is not surprising, since the experiment didn’t deal with pre-race hydration. Although I was going to answer more extensively, after reading the above, I’ll chalk it up to a misunderstanding. When I said "that you really don’t need to worry about hydration on short runs", I was referring to hydration DURING exercise. That’s what the article and experiment were about. Or perhaps the term "short run" was the problem. When we talk about hydration problems here on rec.running, we generally do so in the context of longer runs.  Seldom do we worry about it as a performance factor in 10K’s or shorter races. That’s what made the article interesting – it questions conventional wisdom with some specific numbers. I would disagree with Mike’s statement that hydrating isn’t important for races under an hour.

Good, especially since the experiment shows a significant performance gain if you hydrate during exercise bouts as short as an hour. That’s why I stated it like I did, that it was "conventional wisdom" that it didn’t matter. I’ve changed my viewpoint on the issue. I make sure I’m hydrated before any race of any length. Whether or not I take a drink during the race is a matter of if I want to or not.

Then you obviously missed the entire point of the article. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

Question:

    Just wondering how everyone felt about all these races using online registration services that tack on a few bucks to use your credit card.  Is the ease (are all those steps, remembering a password and everything really that easy) of online registration worth an extra $4 for Mrs..T’s and $2 or so for little 5ks to you?  How about the fact that they don’t tell you there is a processing fee until you’ve wasted all that time entering everything?     Also, how does everyone feel about the extra $5 for "Ironman Eligibility"?     Personally I think it pretty much sucks.  I don’t have to pay extra when I go to the bike shop for tubes just because I use my credit card.  And I hope I qualify for Ironman on my first try because that 5 dollar fee could add up over my lifetime of attempts!     I am more mad about the Ironman thing because I can still use a stamp and save the extra $4 for Mrs. T’s.  But my dream of Ironman is going to cost me a bundle, especially if I try for years before (or never) making it! How can we fight this?  An email/letter campaign to WTC?  What do you all think? -Scott

Response:

On-Line Registration is now available for the Mrs. T’s Chicago Triathlon!! Last year’s race sold out, and we again have a cap on race entries. You can register on-line at www.caprievents.com. Go to the Mrs. T’s main page, and then click on Register Now! Regular registration is still available as well. Brochures can be obtained by All athletes must attend the Expo on Friday, August 27 or Saturday, August 28 regardless of the method of registration. For further information, call Capri Events at 773-404-2372.

Response:

Question:

Let me throw a new twist in, the angle I’m concerned about. Do y’all have to allow about 1/2 hour to eat in the morning before starting out?  Is it possible to have enough calories to burn from the previous evening’s meal?

I NEED my breakfast. The above is such an understatement that I cannot fathom working out in the AM without it. There is a very strong correlation between what (or if) I eat in the morning and the performance of my AM training. If I do not eat in the morning I will get this strong lethargy about 30 minutes into my workout, whether it would be a swim, bike, or run. It’s not a pretty sight. Believe me. If I eat a breakfast with a high simple sugar content, like waffles and syrup, I will experience a short, temporary but intense energy crash during the training. It does pass, but sometimes its so strong I start to see double during that time. It’s also not a pretty sight. What I try to eat is a couple of bowls of cereal in the morning. This is the best for me, and I can sustain a good level of performance throughout my workouts without crashing. I’m sure everyone is different, so you need to experiment yourself on what is best for you.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

I don’t eat anything before my morning workouts.  Too mch complication, and I’m not usually hungry at 6am, also food sometimes gives me cramps during the workout.  I usually run 6mi or swim 1500yd and run 3mi, clean up, drive to work, and have a bagel or something.  It seems to work for me.  Before races I usually have a friut bar or pr bar and some juice.  Any more and I get problems, partly from nerves.  It was worse racing motorcycles, I could hardly eat anything. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m so glad to see this thread so that I don’t have to start a new one!  And so many great opinions! Let me throw a new twist in, the angle I’m concerned about. Do y’all have to allow about 1/2 hour to eat in the morning before starting out?  Is it possible to have enough calories to burn from the previous evening’s meal? If you’re the type that answers no to eating in the morning, then how long a bike or run could you do (in hours)?  I’m prone to bonking, so on my early weekend starts, I have to eat 400-500 calories before I even set out. This whole energy thing is holding me back from getting up early, because in preparation for IM I’d like to do 2-2 1/2 hour rides in the morning.  I wouldn’t run in the morning even if you paid me, what with the foot problems I have and all I’ve read about how running in the afternoon or evening is so much better for the body (joints, muscles, etc.) I read in this month’s Triathlete magazine that Peter and Lori don’t eat anything in the mornings before their swim workouts. Makes sense.  Is that what y’all do before morning masters sessions? Thanks in advance for your valuable input! David W/ a 50 hr+ a week job and 3 small children, the best time for me to workout is early in the morning.  But I just can’t seem to roll out of bed at 5am like I should when the alarm goes off.  How long does it take to get used to getting up that early?  Also, I know each of us is different, but is about 7 hours of sleep enough to get by on every night.  I really hate to go to bed before ten. I hear you, and I only have 1 child, but another is on the way.  It does take some acclimatization to the early morning schedule, but I find that I get so much more out of my workouts.  I always used to spend a couple of hours a night in a vegetative state in front of the television.  Yes, I am embarrassed to admit it, but I did.  Now, I find that if I don’t get to bed by ~9 and to sleep by at least ~10 then I can trash several days of workouts from lack of sleep.  Then again, I tend to need more than just 7 hours of sleep. I think after you’ve been at it for a while it will get easier.  One of the main reasons I say this is that, for me, the high after a morning workout is higher than that from workouts later in the day.  Seeing everyone else come into work all bleary eyed and dragging when you’ve already had a great workout is very motivating. Whatever you do, do not listen to advice from Pete Priolo.  In case you didn’t know, he is an alien.  What works for him may only have remote applicability to genetically gifted, sub-30 year old, single, mentally challenged (bungee jumping, etc.), triathletes. Stacy Hills Reston, VA

Response:

I work nights so my morning workouts are at 4 PM.  I always run and bike on an empty stomach and feel great.  Despite evidence to the contrary I think my workouts(and races) go much better on an empty stomach.  I can go faster and farther without something in my gut.  This may be mental but it works for me.  The human body is very efficient at finding stored energy.   Did the same thing when I actually slept at night.  This is different for everyone so find what works for you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m so glad to see this thread so that I don’t have to start a new one!  And so many great opinions! Let me throw a new twist in, the angle I’m concerned about. Do y’all have to allow about 1/2 hour to eat in the morning before starting out?  Is it possible to have enough calories to burn from the previous evening’s meal? If you’re the type that answers no to eating in the morning, then how long a bike or run could you do (in hours)?  I’m prone to bonking, so on my early weekend starts, I have to eat 400-500 calories before I even set out. This whole energy thing is holding me back from getting up early, because in preparation for IM I’d like to do 2-2 1/2 hour rides in the morning.  I wouldn’t run in the morning even if you paid me, what with the foot problems I have and all I’ve read about how running in the afternoon or evening is so much better for the body (joints, muscles, etc.) I read in this month’s Triathlete magazine that Peter and Lori don’t eat anything in the mornings before their swim workouts. Makes sense.  Is that what y’all do before morning masters sessions? Thanks in advance for your valuable input! David

Response:

David: I don’t eat anything before my morning workouts. However, for swims I try to remember to fix up a bottle of Cytomax or QuickDisc to take with me.  I slurp on it between sets and I think it really helps.

That would work.  If only I could face that cold water at 6:00 a.m. … For the rides, I just stuff food in the jersey pockets and start snacking whenever I get warmed up.

You mean in the morning, or midday?  I’m not sure I could start eating 5 miles into a ride at 6:15 a.m. without feeling pretty lethargic already… Runs are done on an empty stomach unless I drive to a friend’s house (Jason the Evil One) in which case I have time to down a banana.  When doing longer runs I carry a bottle of energy drink and a GU.

So, are you really starting on empty, or do you feel you have some stored energy from overnight? I’m guessing that opinions on this subject will vary as widely as those on morning workouts in general.  I think you just need to find your own groove.

Yep, you’re right!  Time to start. Thanks for your input! David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stacy Hills Reston, VA I’m so glad to see this thread so that I don’t have to start a new one!  And so many great opinions! Let me throw a new twist in, the angle I’m concerned about. Do y’all have to allow about 1/2 hour to eat in the morning before starting out?  Is it possible to have enough calories to burn from the previous evening’s meal? If you’re the type that answers no to eating in the morning, then how long a bike or run could you do (in hours)?  I’m prone to bonking, so on my early weekend starts, I have to eat 400-500 calories before I even set out. This whole energy thing is holding me back from getting up early, because in preparation for IM I’d like to do 2-2 1/2 hour rides in the morning.  I wouldn’t run in the morning even if you paid me, what with the foot problems I have and all I’ve read about how running in the afternoon or evening is so much better for the body (joints, muscles, etc.) I read in this month’s Triathlete magazine that Peter and Lori don’t eat anything in the mornings before their swim workouts. Makes sense.  Is that what y’all do before morning masters sessions? Thanks in advance for your valuable input! David

Response:

What you feel is about what I would feel, I think, if I ever did substantial distances early in the morning.  As it stands, the only thing I do in the morning is a 20 mile ride once per week.  That’s it.  That’s on a Clif bar, 12 oz. of water, and half a banana.  And I’m fine. But if I were doing even a 30 mile ride, or a 6 mile run, or a 2,000 yard swim set, I’d surely bonk without some breakfast.  Gotta have it, I think.  But, I’ll only know if I ever commit to working out early- what this whole thread is about! Thanks for the reply! David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me throw a new twist in, the angle I’m concerned about. Do y’all have to allow about 1/2 hour to eat in the morning before starting out?  Is it possible to have enough calories to burn from the previous evening’s meal? I NEED my breakfast. The above is such an understatement that I cannot fathom working out in the AM without it. There is a very strong correlation between what (or if) I eat in the morning and the performance of my AM training. If I do not eat in the morning I will get this strong lethargy about 30 minutes into my workout, whether it would be a swim, bike, or run. It’s not a pretty sight. Believe me. If I eat a breakfast with a high simple sugar content, like waffles and syrup, I will experience a short, temporary but intense energy crash during the training. It does pass, but sometimes its so strong I start to see double during that time. It’s also not a pretty sight. What I try to eat is a couple of bowls of cereal in the morning. This is the best for me, and I can sustain a good level of performance throughout my workouts without crashing. I’m sure everyone is different, so you need to experiment yourself on what is best for you.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

In article W/ a 50 hr+ a week job and 3 small children, the best time for me to workout is early in the morning.  But I just can’t seem to roll out of bed at 5am like I should when the alarm goes off.  How long does it take to get used to getting up that early?  Also, I know each of us is different, but is about 7 hours of sleep enough to get by on every night.  I really hate to go to bed before ten.

I can sympathize with you.  I wasn’t getting the workouts done after work, mostly because of my three kids needing dad’s attention and my wife needing a break from her brutal role as domestic engineer.  I started getting up at 5:30 to go do the swims and runs, but found I simply couldn’t get in bed early enough to get even 6 hours of sleep.  I talked to the boss, and he let me start coming in 1/2 hour later, so I can sleep in till 6:00!  Still, if I only get 6 hours of sleep a day I’m toast by Friday, and I still can’t get used to getting up at 6:00, even after 3 months.  I suspect some of us simply never get used to getting up that early.  It does feel good the rest of the day once the workout’s over though.  I guess it’s another situation where the shear force of will of the endurance athlete "usually" triumphs, where the rest of the population is simply not strong enough (or crazy enough?) to get the job done.  I did find organizing my stuff the night before really helps get me going the next morning, less thinking required!  Good luck, and keep tri-ing! Rus

Response:

Ah, the energy and follies of our youth.  Tis a wonderful thing to read about, if nothing else!  :-) On a serious note, I’m the type of person that carries few (if any real) regrets.  But you just hit on one of them. If I had it to do all over again, I would have slept more through college.  I remember a roommate preaching to me about how much more you could do in life by sleeping 6 hours a night, and gosh, at 19-20 years old, it worked! But like poor diet (and immoderation in general), lack of sleep will age you prematurely.  I’m not saying you’ll be Grandpa Simpson in 10 years, but trust me not about the sunscreen, but on keeping up whatever amount of sleep you know deep down you need, be it 6 hours or 7.5 hours or whatever.  *sigh*  <END REGRET David "33 and smokin’" Alyea     For the past week I have been going to bed at 2am-3am due to a very important paper that is due for School On May 10th. If I fail this paper I can not graduate so no stress there. But I have noticed that when i go to bed at this time it is much easier to get up at 5:30-6:00 to workout. Although I know it is very unhealthy to do I need to get my training in. As soon as my paper is finished and handed in, I will resume going to bed at 10-12pm and waking up a 5:30 to ride my bike or run. Charles "Can’t wait to go to bed at normal hours  " Garabedian

Response:

David: I don’t eat anything before my morning workouts. However, for swims I try to remember to fix up a bottle of Cytomax or QuickDisc to take with me.  I slurp on it between sets and I think it really helps. For the rides, I just stuff food in the jersey pockets and start snacking whenever I get warmed up. Runs are done on an empty stomach unless I drive to a friend’s house (Jason the Evil One) in which case I have time to down a banana.  When doing longer runs I carry a bottle of energy drink and a GU. I’m guessing that opinions on this subject will vary as widely as those on morning workouts in general.  I think you just need to find your own groove. Stacy Hills Reston, VA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m so glad to see this thread so that I don’t have to start a new one!  And so many great opinions! Let me throw a new twist in, the angle I’m concerned about. Do y’all have to allow about 1/2 hour to eat in the morning before starting out?  Is it possible to have enough calories to burn from the previous evening’s meal? If you’re the type that answers no to eating in the morning, then how long a bike or run could you do (in hours)?  I’m prone to bonking, so on my early weekend starts, I have to eat 400-500 calories before I even set out. This whole energy thing is holding me back from getting up early, because in preparation for IM I’d like to do 2-2 1/2 hour rides in the morning.  I wouldn’t run in the morning even if you paid me, what with the foot problems I have and all I’ve read about how running in the afternoon or evening is so much better for the body (joints, muscles, etc.) I read in this month’s Triathlete magazine that Peter and Lori don’t eat anything in the mornings before their swim workouts. Makes sense.  Is that what y’all do before morning masters sessions? Thanks in advance for your valuable input! David

Response:

I’m so glad to see this thread so that I don’t have to start a new one!  And so many great opinions! Let me throw a new twist in, the angle I’m concerned about. Do y’all have to allow about 1/2 hour to eat in the morning before starting out?  Is it possible to have enough calories to burn from the previous evening’s meal? If you’re the type that answers no to eating in the morning, then how long a bike or run could you do (in hours)?  I’m prone to bonking, so on my early weekend starts, I have to eat 400-500 calories before I even set out. This whole energy thing is holding me back from getting up early, because in preparation for IM I’d like to do 2-2 1/2 hour rides in the morning.  I wouldn’t run in the morning even if you paid me, what with the foot problems I have and all I’ve read about how running in the afternoon or evening is so much better for the body (joints, muscles, etc.) I read in this month’s Triathlete magazine that Peter and Lori don’t eat anything in the mornings before their swim workouts. Makes sense.  Is that what y’all do before morning masters sessions? Thanks in advance for your valuable input! David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – W/ a 50 hr+ a week job and 3 small children, the best time for me to workout is early in the morning.  But I just can’t seem to roll out of bed at 5am like I should when the alarm goes off.  How long does it take to get used to getting up that early?  Also, I know each of us is different, but is about 7 hours of sleep enough to get by on every night.  I really hate to go to bed before ten. I hear you, and I only have 1 child, but another is on the way.  It does take some acclimatization to the early morning schedule, but I find that I get so much more out of my workouts.  I always used to spend a couple of hours a night in a vegetative state in front of the television.  Yes, I am embarrassed to admit it, but I did.  Now, I find that if I don’t get to bed by ~9 and to sleep by at least ~10 then I can trash several days of workouts from lack of sleep.  Then again, I tend to need more than just 7 hours of sleep. I think after you’ve been at it for a while it will get easier.  One of the main reasons I say this is that, for me, the high after a morning workout is higher than that from workouts later in the day.  Seeing everyone else come into work all bleary eyed and dragging when you’ve already had a great workout is very motivating. Whatever you do, do not listen to advice from Pete Priolo.  In case you didn’t know, he is an alien.  What works for him may only have remote applicability to genetically gifted, sub-30 year old, single, mentally challenged (bungee jumping, etc.), triathletes. Stacy Hills Reston, VA

Response:

    For the past week I have been going to bed at 2am-3am due to a very important paper that is due for School On May 10th. If I fail this paper I can not graduate so no stress there. But I have noticed that when i go to bed at this time it is much easier to get up at 5:30-6:00 to workout. Although I know it is very unhealthy to do I need to get my training in. As soon as my paper is finished and handed in, I will resume going to bed at 10-12pm and waking up a 5:30 to ride my bike or run. Charles "Can’t wait to go to bed at normal hours  " Garabedian

Response:

If I want to feel good when the alarm goes off at 5:00 AM, I must get to sleep by 9:00PM.  I can "operate" on less sleep, but to feel at the top of my game I need to sleep 8 hours.  It’s not a complicated formula:  8 hours sleep= good training for me.  Figure out your own formula. Chuck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But I just can’t seem to roll out of bed at 5am like I should when the alarm goes off.  How long does it take to get used to getting up that early?  Also, I know each of us is different, but is about 7 hours of sleep enough to get by on every night.  I really hate to go to bed before ten. Early to bed, early to rise …. I always get up at 5am to workout, but I take it easy for about the first 20 minutes before actually working out.  I try to hit the sack by 9:30.  Works well for me. Bob

Response:

But I just can’t seem to roll out of bed at 5am like I should when the alarm goes off.  How long does it take to get used to getting up that early?  Also, I know each of us is different, but is about 7 hours of sleep enough to get by on every night.  I really hate to go to bed before ten.

Early to bed, early to rise …. I always get up at 5am to workout, but I take it easy for about the first 20 minutes before actually working out.  I try to hit the sack by 9:30.  Works well for me. Bob

Response:

1)  In November I started getting up at 5 a.m. three times/week for masters swim workouts.  The first 2-3 weeks were horrible — it seemed completely unreasonable to get out of bed in the middle of the night.  Now, if I’ve had close to enough sleep (see 2), only the first 30 seconds or so are tough — once I’m standing and pulling on my suit I’m ok, looking forward to coffee and the drive to the pool. 2)  Everyone’s sleep needs are different.   One poster here said that he gets by on 5 hours/night.  I can do that for one night max.  My minimum over a stretch of time is 6-61/2 hours/night, and at least once or twice a week I need 7-8, and if I can squeeze in a nap, that’s great.  If I  don’t get home until after 10 or in bed until after 11 I’ll often decide to blow off the next morning’s swim. In an InsideTri interview Mike Pigg talked about how having twins changed his life — among other things, he didn’t have the two hours every evening that he used to have to just space out.  I think that’s almost as important as sleep, and with a 50-hour workweek and 3 kids you’ll be short of that kind of time. When you can, try going to bed at nine.  It’s really nice to get up early after a good night’s sleep.

Response:

W/ a 50 hr+ a week job and 3 small children, the best time for me to workout is early in the morning.  But I just can’t seem to roll out of bed at 5am like I should when the alarm goes off.  How long does it take to get used to getting up that early?  Also, I know each of us is different, but is about 7 hours of sleep enough to get by on every night.  I really hate to go to bed before

ten. I hear you, and I only have 1 child, but another is on the way.  It does take some acclimatization to the early morning schedule, but I find that I get so much more out of my workouts.  I always used to spend a couple of hours a night in a vegetative state in front of the television.  Yes, I am embarrassed to admit it, but I did.  Now, I find that if I don’t get to bed by ~9 and to sleep by at least ~10 then I can trash several days of workouts from lack of sleep.  Then again, I tend to need more than just 7 hours of sleep. I think after you’ve been at it for a while it will get easier.  One of the main reasons I say this is that, for me, the high after a morning workout is higher than that from workouts later in the day.  Seeing everyone else come into work all bleary eyed and dragging when you’ve already had a great workout is very motivating. Whatever you do, do not listen to advice from Pete Priolo.  In case you didn’t know, he is an alien.  What works for him may only have remote applicability to genetically gifted, sub-30 year old, single, mentally challenged (bungee jumping, etc.), triathletes. Stacy Hills Reston, VA

Response:

I don’t think there’s any hard and fast rule – I used to get along fine, in fact was at my best, when I got 5hrs sleep/nite; no more, no less. I think it’s an individual thang. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – W/ a 50 hr+ a week job and 3 small children, the best time for me to workout is early in the morning.  But I just can’t seem to roll out of bed at 5am like I should when the alarm goes off.  How long does it take to get used to getting up that early?  Also, I know each of us is different, but is about 7 hours of sleep enough to get by on every night.  I really hate to go to bed before ten. I seem to be getting by on a 7 hour sleep when I work out in the mornings. I feel the mornings are a lot easier to train hard in because that is when my mind is at its clearest. After work and such, my mind becomes so twisted and tired that I can’t stand anything harder than a recovery ride, run, or swim in the PM. The fallback for the 7 hour sleep is that I need to get those lost hours back on the weekend, so I’m usually on the couch by Sunday PM, vegging in front of the TV. Funny but true!                          |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                 "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

W/ a 50 hr+ a week job and 3 small children, the best time for me to workout is early in the morning.  But I just can’t seem to roll out of bed at 5am like I should when the alarm goes off.  How long does it take to get used to getting up that early?  Also, I know each of us is different, but is about 7 hours of sleep enough to get by on every night.  I really hate to go to bed before ten.

I seem to be getting by on a 7 hour sleep when I work out in the mornings. I feel the mornings are a lot easier to train hard in because that is when my mind is at its clearest. After work and such, my mind becomes so twisted and tired that I can’t stand anything harder than a recovery ride, run, or swim in the PM. The fallback for the 7 hour sleep is that I need to get those lost hours back on the weekend, so I’m usually on the couch by Sunday PM, vegging in front of the TV. Funny but true!                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

W/ a 50 hr+ a week job and 3 small children, the best time for me to workout is early in the morning.  But I just can’t seem to roll out of bed at 5am like I should when the alarm goes off.  How long does it take to get used to getting up that early?  Also, I know each of us is different, but is about 7 hours of sleep enough to get by on every night.  I really hate to go to bed before ten.

Response:

Question:

For Tricia and others, you may find in interesting to note that Les McDonald was a regular competitor at Ironman Hawaii in the early days and I believe at one time he held the course record in the 50 – 55 age-group. Steve Fleck

Yep I had the pleaseure back then of meeting and enjoying a Molson or two with him on several occasions and I can assure you that back then he was only too happy to accept his ‘world title’. From memory I think he won his age group more than once , we’re talking the years 84 thru 87/88 ish and he definitely held the course record for several years. Funny how a bit of power changes a guys attitude isnt it? Whats more I’m sure if he didnt retire from the sport thru injury and get involved with ITU I am sure he would still be racing Ironman , cause he loved it over there!! Ross

Response:

If anyone doubts the intentions of the ITU, just check out their ‘worlds’ insert in the current issue of Inside Triathlon. In their propaganda, they have a history of triathlon that makes no mention of Hawaii Ironman. In fact, in their perverted view of history, they claim that they guided the growth of the sport. It is certainly a deliberate snub of WTC. Check it out.

I just got mine yesterday, and have to agree—How the hell can you pompously entitle a piece "The History of Triathlon" and then completely ignore Ironman???  What’s really pretty funny about it is the fact that the only people who are going to be looking at that silly program are triathletes, all of whom know better. In addition, I have a question for our buddy Les:  What does "percariously" mean?  As a matter of fact, I’d like to know what this entire sentence is supposed to mean:  "I hope Perth percariously guards the cultural, intellectual and environmental treasures of Western Australia as they welcome a new world with their charming hospitality." Say WHAAAT??  How can "treasures" welcome anybody with charming hospitality? The man can’t even demonstrate control of proper grammar and syntax (let alone vocabulary), and yet he is supposed to be the head honcho of our sport? OK, ok, so it’s pretty pathetic to sink to this level, taking swipes at the man’s writing.  But SHEESH!  Is it BAD!  No wonder the ITU is such a disaster! Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

If anyone doubts the intentions of the ITU, just check out their ‘worlds’ insert in the current issue of Inside Triathlon. In their propaganda, they have a history of triathlon that makes no mention of Hawaii Ironman. In fact, in their perverted view of history, they claim that they guided the growth of the sport. It is certainly a deliberate snub of WTC. Check it out. Cathy Corning

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Except at marathons and most running road races. The pros and elites get to start at the front, but that’s their only concession. also notable in this insert is their dealing with the huge bulk of competitors,  the age groupers, as also-rans.   It is important to note that, few if any other sports include age-group competitors at their World Championships. In fact I can think of no other events where age group athletes compete in the same venue as the best professional and elite athletes in a given sport. Nomally age group championships or masters championships for various sports are contested at a different venues and at different times. Steve Fleck

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got mine yesterday, and have to agree—How the hell can you pompously entitle a piece "The History of Triathlon" and then completely ignore Ironman???  What’s really pretty funny about it is the fact that the only people who are going to be looking at that silly program are triathletes, all of whom know better. In addition, I have a question for our buddy Les:  What does "percariously" mean?  As a matter of fact, I’d like to know what this entire sentence is supposed to mean:  "I hope Perth percariously guards the cultural, intellectual and environmental treasures of Western Australia as they welcome a new world with their charming hospitality." Say WHAAAT??  How can "treasures" welcome anybody with charming hospitality? The man can’t even demonstrate control of proper grammar and syntax (let alone vocabulary), and yet he is supposed to be the head honcho of our sport? OK, ok, so it’s pretty pathetic to sink to this level, taking swipes at the man’s writing.  But SHEESH!  Is it BAD!  No wonder the ITU is such a disaster! Tri-Baby

I have not seen this "History of Triathlon" piece. The sled dogs have not swung by my igloo up here in Canada yet with the mail. If Ironman Hawaii was not mentioned in the piece, it is a massive oversight on the part of the authors. For Tricia and others, you may find in interesting to note that Les McDonald was a regular competitor at Ironman Hawaii in the early days and I believe at one time he held the course record in the 50 – 55 age-group. Steve Fleck

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Question:

Reading the bike mags, and some postings I see references to the alignment of the dropouts on bike frames, (vertical? horizontal?).  Whats the deal? What is the importance/significance and should I sell my new bike (I have no idea what its set up with, (Cannondale))??  Is this the key to 25 mph avg bike splits?!! Steve "I’m no dropout" Rogers

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Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK Reading the bike mags, and some postings I see references to the alignment of the dropouts on bike frames, (vertical? horizontal?).  Whats the deal? What is the importance/significance and should I sell my new bike (I have no idea what its set up with, (Cannondale))??  Is this the key to 25 mph avg bike splits?!! Steve "I’m no dropout" Rogers

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Reading the bike mags, and some postings I see references to the alignment of the dropouts on bike frames, (vertical? horizontal?).  Whats the deal? What is the importance/significance and should I sell my new bike (I have no idea what its set up with, (Cannondale))??  Is this the key to 25 mph avg bike splits?!!

My, my, my. We all know why derailleur equipped bicycles have anything other than vertical dropouts, don’t we?  Single speed bicycles need horizontal rear dropouts to allow the chain tightness to be adjusted.  (Well, you could use an eccentric bottom bracket like on a tandem, but that would be heavy and complicated). Well, you see, in the good old days, there were no derailleurs, and bicycles used in long road races would instead be equipped with two single cogs of different sizes, one on each side of the rear wheel.  An especially long horizontal rear dropout would allow the handling of a reasonable difference in sizes between the two cogs.  To facilitate quickly switching which cog was used, the solid rear axles were held in place with large wing nuts. One day, Tulio Campagnolo lost a race because he got stuck at the top of a mountain pass, struggling to undo the wing-nuts which would allow him to turn the wheel around.  (I believe the larger cog was a fixed gear (no freewheel), making it severely non-optimal for riding down steep mountain passes).  Because of this experience, he later went on to invent the quick-release mechanism.  He also invented one of the early types of derailleur mechanisms; in this design, no take-up jockey wheels were used, but, instead the rear wheel would move back-and-forth in very long rear dropouts (the wheel would be released and later tightened using a fairly normal modern quick-release mechanism with an extension that allowed it to be operated via a lever just below the saddle). But anyway, with modern derailleur mechanisms horizontal dropouts are pretty much just a tradition; most people adjust the screws as far forward as possible, anyway, so the dropouts might as well be vertical.  Vertical dropouts generally make it easier to remove or replace a wheel with a fully inflated tire.  But the difference in performance should be truly negligible.  Though those traditional little adjusting screws sure look neat. Adrian "and horizontal dropouts are necessary to use a fixed wheel" Pepper.

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