Question:

I think the lower volume mags tend to use models that look more like real runners. Not sure about volume (both RW and TR have equal shelf space in grocery), but the running mags that have cover photos that *I* get (TrailRunner, Ultrarunning) have *real* runners on the cover (sometimes elites), *not* models, and they are always in motion on a trail

"Low volume" was a reference to anything besides RW. Depressingly, where I am, most places carry RW but few carry RT, TR or UR. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

I think the lower volume mags tend to use models that look more like real runners.

Not sure about volume (both RW and TR have equal shelf space in grocery), but the running mags that have cover photos that *I* get (TrailRunner, Ultrarunning) have *real* runners on the cover (sometimes elites), *not* models, and they are always in motion on a trail (exception is gear issue with gear, not runner, on cover). I know at least some of the RW covers in the past were people who run (might be triathlete) – sometimes undoctored (a photographer is on ultra list) – but I don’t know what they use now. I have no idea what demographic they are appealing to, but I know I’m not in it As I’ve said before, while one might stereotype certain types of runners (as I mentioned small frames for elite road runners), I think there’s enough variation to make it an exercise in futility, esp. since many runners do other activities / sports (tri, mt biking, climbing, snowshoeing, etc). However, I think a person who runs long distances, unsupported (think carrying 10-20 lb pack up and down multiple 1000s of feet) in the mountains (a TrailRunner cover candidate) is likely to appear more muscular than an elite that runs road marathons with aid stations, but I could be wrong. I don’t think all TR covers are elites, but they may be – I just don’t follow races that much to know that many names, other than a few ultra runners and maybe some mtn and snowshoe runners. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Response:

The people on the RW covers look more like fitness models than runners — they’re a little heavier than the typical competitive runner, and much leaner than the typical roadrace midpacker.

But the question is, do they still turn you on? (theoretical, we already know they do)

Response:

If you look at the top percentile of male and female runners, you will see that they are all thin, low body fat types. What’s interesting is to compare the image of a "runner" generated by RW (I’ve only seen a couple recent covers that have been discussed here),

The people on the RW covers look more like fitness models than runners — they’re a little heavier than the typical competitive runner, and much leaner than the typical roadrace midpacker. in sponsors clothes, are usually very "fit" (strong?) looking (not the small frame of elite road runners), and are usually in aggressive running positions (not standing models like RW);

This is more-or-less the look of the typical competitive road runner — most of these guys are not 5′6" and 130lb, they just don’t have the genetics to permit such a small size. But most of them are pretty lean. I think the lower volume mags tend to use models that look more like real runners. Cheers, — Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Response:

What kind of question is that?  Runners are of 2 types: #1.  New Year Resolution Runners:  Pot bellied, round, and fat…This is a seasonal phenomenon…  You’ll have to wait another year to observe this pattern! #2. Lean, mean, street machines!  Move out of my way!  These roads were paved for the both of us! This phenomenon can be observed at almost any time of the year.  However, there are peak activity times when members of this elite club gather for the collective experience.  Remember, share the road; you may be on it yourself one day!

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If you are over 40, you might look "weathered" from all those years of being exposed to the outside elements. The person may be picking up on your breathing.  A runner would probably breathe smoothly and effortlessly in most daily activities like walking through a store. Next time you are in a WalMart, notice how many people appear to be breathing hard or even wheezy while walking, especially those with extra pounds. Or take extra breaths while talking.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does a runner look? I ask this because I saw a lady the other day who I knew right away was a recreational runner.  It wasn’t her size because she wasn’t all that slim.  But it was obvious. We spoke later and my guess was confirmed. Now, having nothing to do some of the time, I’ve been trying to figure out how I knew.  Could have been just coincidence.  But I like to think that "runners" look and act different from the general population.  I think it was the way she walked.  Kinda on the balls of her feet usually.  Maybe it was her posture. Any other ideas? …thehick we are just generally all-around excellent people. interesting, fun to be with, cool personalities, full of energy, kind to animals, we value the elderly, save children from burning buildings, wear capes with pizazz as we travel faster than speeding bullets, have great teeth, wonderful minty-fresh breath, biceps of steel, are extremely handy around the house, can repair cars without difficulty, win contests frequently, garner the admiration of world leaders, raise healthy houseplants, create beautiful intelligent children, are environmentally aware and friendly, and can whip up a souffle without using a recipe. …and humble. Phil M.

oh yes, i absolutely should have mentioned that one. Cam

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dot i have to agree RW = beautifull(?) people i wasthink on getting a sub. buit not now plodzilla In common with most magazines, they are full of fluff and little substance. The first two or three copies you buy are quite interesting but you soon realise that its the same stuff regurgitated. And the front covers always have the emotive subjects like: "eat more, lose weight" "the only workout you really need"

And the notorious concept of numbering.  10 ways to lose fat off you nose in a crowd, or 17 ways to iron your sports bra in the shower. Drives me nuts. I had a talk with George Hirch(sp) many years back and why they did that. It seems the majority of runners are anally(my word) comfortable, demanding that things be numbered. Actually most magazines use the same philosophy. -DougF

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dot i have to agree RW = beautifull(?) people i wasthink on getting a sub. buit not now plodzilla In common with most magazines, they are full of fluff and little substance. The first two or three copies you buy are quite interesting but you soon realise that its the same stuff regurgitated. And the front covers always have the emotive subjects like: "eat more, lose weight" "the only workout you really need" And the notorious concept of numbering.  10 ways to lose fat off you nose in a crowd, or 17 ways to iron your sports bra in the shower. Drives me nuts. I had a talk with George Hirch(sp) many years back and why they did that. It seems the majority of runners are anally(my word) comfortable, demanding that things be numbered. Actually most magazines use the same philosophy.

They certainly do, I stopped buying Mens Health after 3 issues when I realised their super duper 5 ways to lose your belly in 3 months didnt give me a six-pack. I wouldnt mind if the tips were any good, but most consist of two sentences with statements like "stop eating so much, the weight will fall off".

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raise healthy houseplants, create beautiful intelligent children, are environmentally aware and friendly, and can whip up a souffle without using a recipe. that’s all i can think of at the moment  :) Took the words right out of my mouth.

I was thinking more along the lines of: "They smell worse than the rest of the crowd in the bagel shop on Saturday morning."

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But I like to think that "runners" look and act different from the general population.   Why would you expect a runner to look different than, say, a xc skiier or a mt biker or a thru-hiker, esp. since some runners do all those activities competively or for cross-training? Or did you mean to say that endurance athletes look different from the general population?

not exactly.  when i said "look", i meant more than appearance. how runners walk, how they hold their bodies, how they stand, stuff like that.  more-or-less just for something to do, i’m trying to figure out how to identify a runner on sight.  not just any endurance athlete.  onemarathon gave a good effort, but i’m finding it difficult to use some of the attributes he/she described. someone said that the men tend to be thin and the women to be chunky.  i think what that indicates is simply that less serious men don’t enter races while a lot of women do things like this just for fun or charity. i.e.: not really runners.  just people doing something together that happens to look like running. i’m looking for more concrete things. …thehick

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On the inside cover typically will identify whoever is on the cover and mostly they are runners. As far as putting an average runner (whatever that is) on the cover I don’t think you’ll ever see that, you are going to see at least someone who looks like a good runner. And this is typical of any sport magazine. On a body building mag will be a photo of Gunter, not the typical wannabe that you see in the gym. And do you want a photo of a skier snowplowing down a hill on a ski magazine? Car and Driver will not have a ‘96 Civic on the cover. On a side note when I get my Road Runner Sports catalog now they have all these body building guys modeling the running clothes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s interesting is to compare the image of a "runner" generated by RW (I’ve only seen a couple recent covers that have been discussed here), TrailRunner, and Ultrarunning – by covers or inside photos. RW can be mistaken for Cosmopolitan (or whatever); TrailRunner has them decked out in sponsors clothes, are usually very "fit" (strong?) looking (not the small frame of elite road runners), and are usually in aggressive running positions (not standing models like RW); and Ultrarunning inside photos look like the average person on the street – like race photos that might appear here with people of all shapes and sizes. Dot

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does a runner look? I ask this because I saw a lady the other day who I knew right away was a recreational runner.  It wasn’t her size because she wasn’t all that slim.  But it was obvious. We spoke later and my guess was confirmed. Now, having nothing to do some of the time, I’ve been trying to figure out how I knew.  Could have been just coincidence.  But I like to think that "runners" look and act different from the general population.  I think it was the way she walked.  Kinda on the balls of her feet usually.  Maybe it was her posture. Any other ideas? …thehick we are just generally all-around excellent people. interesting, fun to be with, cool personalities, full of energy, kind to animals, we value the elderly, save children from burning buildings, wear capes with pizazz as we travel faster than speeding bullets, have great teeth, wonderful minty-fresh breath, biceps of steel, are extremely handy around the house, can repair cars without difficulty, win contests frequently, garner the admiration of world leaders, raise healthy houseplants, create beautiful intelligent children, are environmentally aware and friendly, and can whip up a souffle without using a recipe. that’s all i can think of at the moment  :)

Took the words right out of my mouth. -DougF

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Dot i have to agree RW = beautifull(?) people i wasthink on getting a sub. buit not now plodzilla

In common with most magazines, they are full of fluff and little substance. The first two or three copies you buy are quite interesting but you soon realise that its the same stuff regurgitated. And the front covers always have the emotive subjects like: "eat more, lose weight" "the only workout you really need"

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have you ever been on a photo shoot?? it is a hoot. I was climbing in about 95 degree and there was the whole camera crew with a beautiful person shooting  his feet for some shoe add. all he did was complain between shots how hot it was and how he needed to get back to his a.c. home… what a farce. then there was the time about 6 females were at the climb ,,, that good looking,,, had to be a photo shoot and another story plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dot i have to agree RW = beautifull(?) people i wasthink on getting a sub. buit not now plodzilla In common with most magazines, they are full of fluff and little substance. The first two or three copies you buy are quite interesting but you soon realise that its the same stuff regurgitated. And the front covers always have the emotive subjects like: "eat more, lose weight" "the only workout you really need"

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Joggers DO look and act different than the general population.  What, did you think the pointing, laughing, hostility, and merciless ridicule was just coincidence?

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How does a runner look?

Half look very much like an adult in a Spiderman costume, the other half look like ballerinas in tutu’s.

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If you look at the top percentile of male and female runners, you will see that they are all thin, low body fat types.

What’s interesting is to compare the image of a "runner" generated by RW (I’ve only seen a couple recent covers that have been discussed here), TrailRunner, and Ultrarunning – by covers or inside photos. RW can be mistaken for Cosmopolitan (or whatever); TrailRunner has them decked out in sponsors clothes, are usually very "fit" (strong?) looking (not the small frame of elite road runners), and are usually in aggressive running positions (not standing models like RW); and Ultrarunning inside photos look like the average person on the street – like race photos that might appear here with people of all shapes and sizes. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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Dot i have to agree RW = beautifull(?) people i wasthink on getting a sub. buit not now plodzilla – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you look at the top percentile of male and female runners, you will see that they are all thin, low body fat types. What’s interesting is to compare the image of a "runner" generated by RW (I’ve only seen a couple recent covers that have been discussed here), TrailRunner, and Ultrarunning – by covers or inside photos. RW can be mistaken for Cosmopolitan (or whatever); TrailRunner has them decked out in sponsors clothes, are usually very "fit" (strong?) looking (not the small frame of elite road runners), and are usually in aggressive running positions (not standing models like RW); and Ultrarunning inside photos look like the average person on the street – like race photos that might appear here with people of all shapes and sizes. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does a runner look? I ask this because I saw a lady the other day who I knew right away was a recreational runner.  It wasn’t her size because she wasn’t all that slim.  But it was obvious. We spoke later and my guess was confirmed. Now, having nothing to do some of the time, I’ve been trying to figure out how I knew.  Could have been just coincidence.  But I like to think that "runners" look and act different from the general population.  I think it was the way she walked.  Kinda on the balls of her feet usually.  Maybe it was her posture. Any other ideas? …thehick we are just generally all-around excellent people. interesting, fun to be with, cool personalities, full of energy, kind to animals, we value the elderly, save children from burning buildings, wear capes with pizazz as we travel faster than speeding bullets, have great teeth, wonderful minty-fresh breath, biceps of steel, are extremely handy around the house, can repair cars without difficulty, win contests frequently, garner the admiration of world leaders, raise healthy houseplants, create beautiful intelligent children, are environmentally aware and friendly, and can whip up a souffle without using a recipe.

…and humble. Phil M. — "I gotta go. You’re killin’ me."

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How does a runner look? I ask this because I saw a lady the other day who I knew right away was a recreational runner.  It wasn’t her size because she wasn’t all that slim.  But it was obvious. We spoke later and my guess was confirmed. Now, having nothing to do some of the time, I’ve been trying to figure out how I knew.  Could have been just coincidence.  But I like to think that "runners" look and act different from the general population.  I think it was the way she walked.  Kinda on the balls of her feet usually.  Maybe it was her posture. Any other ideas? …thehick

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<< How does a runner look? based on my very limited experience — regarding thinking about such issues — i have noticed that serious adult runners differ by gender, meaning, male runners tend to look lean, while female runners can look chunky. i am referring to adults, not adolescents;  as well as non-marathon runners (eg, serious, steady long-distance running). are my tentative observations accurate, on average, or am i incorrect?  i welcome differing opinions on this issue!                   \  - –  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

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<< How does a runner look? based on my very limited experience — regarding thinking about such issues — i have noticed that serious adult runners differ by gender, meaning, male runners tend to look lean, while female runners can look chunky. i am referring to adults, not adolescents;  as well as non-marathon runners (eg, serious, steady long-distance running). are my tentative observations accurate, on average, or am i incorrect?  i welcome differing opinions on this issue!

Maybe that is your observation of the  average runner that you see at your local races. I think the reason that the women can look chunky is that there are more women of this body type that are willing to enter a race. If you look at the top percentile of male and female runners, you will see that they are all thin, low body fat types. Phil M. — "I gotta go. You’re killin’ me."

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But I like to think that "runners" look and act different from the general population.  

Why would you expect a runner to look different than, say, a xc skiier or a mt biker or a thru-hiker, esp. since some runners do all those activities competively or for cross-training? Or did you mean to say that endurance athletes look different from the general population? At races, I’ve bumped into several people from work (not my immediate location, but people I’ve worked with on projects) who are runners, and I never would’ve thought they were runners. And one guy that I thought might be a runner was actually a xc skiier (or at least that’s how he entered that particular race where you can choose your weapon from running, skiing, biking). Then again, maybe I just don’t know what a runner looks like. Wouldn’t be the first time I was clueless about something dealing with running. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does a runner look? I ask this because I saw a lady the other day who I knew right away was a recreational runner.  It wasn’t her size because she wasn’t all that slim.  But it was obvious. We spoke later and my guess was confirmed. Now, having nothing to do some of the time, I’ve been trying to figure out how I knew.  Could have been just coincidence.  But I like to think that "runners" look and act different from the general population.  I think it was the way she walked.  Kinda on the balls of her feet usually.  Maybe it was her posture. Any other ideas? …thehick

we are just generally all-around excellent people. interesting, fun to be with, cool personalities, full of energy, kind to animals, we value the elderly, save children from burning buildings, wear capes with pizazz as we travel faster than speeding bullets, have great teeth, wonderful minty-fresh breath, biceps of steel, are extremely handy around the house, can repair cars without difficulty, win contests frequently, garner the admiration of world leaders, raise healthy houseplants, create beautiful intelligent children, are environmentally aware and friendly, and can whip up a souffle without using a recipe. that’s all i can think of at the moment  :) Cam

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Question:

Today’s Ottawa Citizen: Paul Dupre, the Games’ executive director of sport, said yesterday that the starter and three assistant starters determined there had been no false start because of an electrical malfunction of the starting-block mechanism that determines a runner’s reaction time to the sound of the gun. Saturday an official from the Finishlynx timing company refuted that claim. "There was no technical malfunction. None," said the official on the condition of anonymity, whose company is in charge of timing here. More…at: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports1/stories/010722/5037952.html Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Surin avoids disqualification Sprinter appeared to false-start twice From today’s Ottawa Citizen: Bruny Surin, a world and Olympic medallist, appeared to false-start twice in the quarter-final round, but track officials waved it off without explanation. On French TV (Radio-Canada) last night they said it was a case of the recall mechanism firing by mistake. Daniel … Ottawa’s Glenroy Gilbert, who ran beside Surin in Lane 5, was furious immediately after stepping off the track. "Why not ask the officials?" said Gilbert, when quizzed about the disputed second false start against Surin. "They know what happened, and I’m sure you do, too." … Cameroon runner Alfred Moussambini, who started in Lane 8, said Surin was saved by the fact the international competition was held in Canada. "They (track officials) say there was no false start," Moussambini explained. "There was no charge because, I think, I’m sure, we’re in Canada. "I’m sure if it was another guy, it would be immediate (disqualification). But we’re in Canada." Complete article at: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/010721/5033359.html Ken Parker Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

Ken Parker Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

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Surin avoids disqualification Sprinter appeared to false-start twice From today’s Ottawa Citizen: Bruny Surin, a world and Olympic medallist, appeared to false-start twice in the quarter-final round, but track officials waved it off without explanation.

On French TV (Radio-Canada) last night they said it was a case of the recall mechanism firing by mistake. Daniel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Ottawa’s Glenroy Gilbert, who ran beside Surin in Lane 5, was furious immediately after stepping off the track. "Why not ask the officials?" said Gilbert, when quizzed about the disputed second false start against Surin. "They know what happened, and I’m sure you do, too." … Cameroon runner Alfred Moussambini, who started in Lane 8, said Surin was saved by the fact the international competition was held in Canada. "They (track officials) say there was no false start," Moussambini explained. "There was no charge because, I think, I’m sure, we’re in Canada. "I’m sure if it was another guy, it would be immediate (disqualification). But we’re in Canada." Complete article at: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/010721/5033359.html Ken Parker Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

– Daniel Pierre-Antoine Dept. of Political Science Carleton University 1125 Colonel By Drive Ottawa, ON  K1L 5B6

Response:

Surin avoids disqualification Sprinter appeared to false-start twice From today’s Ottawa Citizen: Bruny Surin, a world and Olympic medallist, appeared to false-start twice in the quarter-final round, but track officials waved it off without explanation. … Ottawa’s Glenroy Gilbert, who ran beside Surin in Lane 5, was furious immediately after stepping off the track. "Why not ask the officials?" said Gilbert, when quizzed about the disputed second false start against Surin. "They know what happened, and I’m sure you do, too." … Cameroon runner Alfred Moussambini, who started in Lane 8, said Surin was saved by the fact the international competition was held in Canada. "They (track officials) say there was no false start," Moussambini explained. "There was no charge because, I think, I’m sure, we’re in Canada. "I’m sure if it was another guy, it would be immediate (disqualification). But we’re in Canada." Complete article at: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/010721/5033359.html Ken Parker Runner’s Web http://www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site

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Question:

Triathlon will be in Athens.  See this: http://3athlete.com/article.php?sid=64 Anyone know if triathlon is going to be on the schedule in Athens? Wasn’t it just a try out in Sydney? Richard

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Anyone know if triathlon is going to be on the schedule in Athens? YES Wasn’t it just a try out in Sydney?

Technically yes, but it is a full medal sport 2000 was triathlon’s first appearance at the Olympics,  , Triathlon is a full medal sport (unlike, for example, Speed Skiing at Albertville 92, which was a demonstration sport, sorta like an audition or tryout) So triathlon (or the ITU’s Version) is an Olympic Sport, that does not mean Athens "had" to include it into their games in 2004, but it was available to include… (the host nation does have some ability to pick or decline a handfull of events)   After the performances at Sydney, triathlon was a shoo in    in fact if the Olympics in 2000 had been in …perhaps, Santiago, Chile (first place that came to mind)  They would have no obligation to put Triathlon on their Olympic Menu. The Sydney Organizing committee was instrumental in getting triathlon onto the games (by that I mean actually into the games, The IOC had already recognized the ITU’s version as an official sport)…. Of course, they also figured they’d have a very good chance for a sweep of all 6 medals…    Now the bigger question is will Athens still have the games in 2004? or will the IOC strip them? The clock is ticking…..and will the pollution around Athens kill the athletes?…..

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Anyone know if triathlon is going to be on the schedule in Athens? Wasn’t it just a try out in Sydney? Richard

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Question:

You have identified one of the chief problems of this medium – anonymity. It’s easily possible to assume someone else’s identity here, it’s also to assume no one’s. In a flash I could become Brian Wagner, Steve Locke, or Nelson Mandela, and anyone with anything other than regular subscriber ISP access could change their email address to match. you’re just a stupid creep. brian wagner

Dan, if you are going to impersonate me, you will have to attain a higher standard of erudition. Mike, your mother wears army boots. Brian Wagner

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have identified one of the chief problems of this medium – anonymity. It’s easily possible to assume someone else’s identity here, it’s also to assume no one’s. In a flash I could become Brian Wagner, Steve Locke, or Nelson Mandela, and anyone with anything other than regular subscriber ISP access could change their email address to match. you’re just a stupid creep. brian wagner Dan, if you are going to impersonate me, you will have to attain a higher standard of erudition. Mike, your mother wears army boots. Brian Wagner

Now THAT sounds like the real thing! Rick Denney

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Mike, your mother wears army boots. Brian Wagner Now THAT sounds like the real thing! Rick Denney

Shouldn’t that have been:    Rick "or is it?" Denney

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Mike, your mother wears army boots. Brian Wagner Now THAT sounds like the real thing! Rick Denney Shouldn’t that have been:    Rick "or is it?" Denney

Hey, you all stop making fun of my post. Mike Schwing

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<crying I’m so confused! Ray Plotecia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, your mother wears army boots. Brian Wagner Now THAT sounds like the real thing! Rick Denney Shouldn’t that have been:    Rick "or is it?" Denney Hey, you all stop making fun of my post. Mike Schwing

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Hi all, As someone who has rarely posted, yet consistently frequents RST to check out the latest tri soap opera , I feel compelled to speak on behalf of that "joe average" triathlete someone mentioned. I am not fast. I will never qualify for worlds. I grew up playing freaking football, basketball, baseball, and volleball. When I’m working, I usually put in 60 hour weeks…I am destined to maintain the life of the average triathlete. So, here in the midwest I must disagree with someone’s impression of "who cares about Ironman?" Frankly, I recently got into a discussion with an Australian friend because she was excited about Worlds and what the Aussie contingent would do. I told her..that frankly..most of the "average" triathletes that I know…could care less. We are more excited to watch the Ironmans, to condemn drafting, to keep this and individual sport based on doing something extraordinary… While I have corresponded with Emilio on a few occasions (after buying some of the products from his company), I finally took a look at the Worlds results page and found all these names of people as top age groupers!!  And while I’ll concede jealousy that I WISH I could be that fast, I can’t understand how top level athletes can really associate with those of us who barely avg. 20 mph on the bike, run 9 minute miles, etc…? So…please…if you are going to generalize and reference YOUR position, please recognize that’s exactly what it is…YOUR viewpoint. As far as Emilio’s initial questions..I’d love to know what USAT actually does too. I simply use the "rankings" to gauge if I’ve gotten any better over the course of the year. And personally, I’ve been trying hard to get one USAT board member here in the midwest removed – after he displayed his own egotistical agenda in print. That’s all we can do. While some may believe RST has absolutely no power…I believe otherwise. Every movement must start somewhere…it’s just a matter of who wants to lead them to the promised land Craig "your average tri guy" Preston IM Canada 2000

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Great one Craig.  I actually wrote on behalf of all age groupers.  In particular, my dad is in the same boat as you. Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

Response:

You have identified one of the chief problems of this medium – anonymity. It’s easily possible to assume someone else’s identity here, it’s also to assume no one’s. In a flash I could become Brian Wagner, Steve Locke, or Nelson Mandela, and anyone with anything other than regular subscriber ISP access could change their email address to match.

you’re just a stupid creep. brian wagner

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Dear Mr. Trimillenium, Thanks for your input.  My real concerns, as I have previously stated were not those of Elite, nor only those on TEAM USA, but rather the majority of the age groupers that will never make it to National Championship or a World Championship.  I never complained that TEAM USA was unfairly treated.  I have been on TEAM USA for many years and if I felt unfairly treated, I would not be on it. <<A race director has to pay little or nothing to sanction a race. Fred Sommers gave us the costs he has to pay to sanction a race  in a previous thread and you are wrong. << Third, participation in the national rankings (how hard did you try to be ranked first last year Emilio?) I did not try at all, I simply did the races I wanted to do and that coincided with business trips! <<Where you are wrong is believing that RST can make one damn bit of difference. Actually I am with you here.  I do not think RST can do much, but it is a good place to start to gather and share thoughts and opinions from people like you and me. Emilio De Soto

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So here are more specific questions: … What do we the age groupers get for having a race sanctioned by USAT?

_Sometimes_ we get USAT race officials — very good officials — but only if the RD is willing to pay for them. We also get ranking points. The ranking is kinda fun, but doesn’t mean much for this BOPper. I can’t think of anything else that sanctioning means (other than an extra $5.00). Before I finish, I want to proclaim Charlie Crawford as being the best of the best when it comes to the drafting issue.  Charlie, you do it better than anyone and I hope you are getting paid well for what you do. One more question:  Has anyone in RST ever received a response from USAT for thread they have ever posted?

Yes. When the handlebar plug thread was going, both Bruce and Charlie replied to me. Actually, Charlie’s reply was to my email to USAT (they had a feedback page, I think) which was forwarded to him. However, I’m still waiting to hear if there’s going to be a resolution to the issue. Bruce replied to the RST thread, providing some insight on the rules. David / FEY2K (remove spaces) at att dot net

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It would be nice if you would indicate your real name so we can better understand where you are coming from. Cathy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have read with interest this thread. Frankly, RST is all bark and no bite. Over and over pleas are made to form an organization that only consists of age groupers.

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You have identified one of the chief problems of this medium – anonymity. It’s easily possible to assume someone else’s identity here, it’s also to assume no one’s. In a flash I could become Brian Wagner, Steve Locke, or Nelson Mandela, and anyone with anything other than regular subscriber ISP access could change their email address to match. Unless you can validate the identity of a poster, it should be taken as one would an anonymous letter – throw it out. One of the reasons RST isn’t taken seriously anywhere other than on RST. Schwing

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course the money issue is compounded by the officiating bureacracy at USAT.  It is a nightmare but is so entrenched that we are not likely to see much change.  I know many worship those who run the bureacracy but I suggest that those who do open their eyes as those bureacrats are the cause of the problem. Since "those who run the bureacracy" is a euphemism for me, and since the rest of your comments have some merit, please elaborate on how I am the problem as far as having officials available to race directors. If you could open MY eyes, it might help. I wish you could feel free to use your name.  RST is certainly an open place, and there is really no need to hide one’s identity. -Charlie Crawford USAT Commissioner of Officials

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Since "those who run the bureacracy" is a euphemism for me, and since the rest of your comments have some merit, please elaborate on how I am the problem as far as having officials available to race directors. If you could open MY eyes, it might help.

Charlie, you could hardly be labeled part of the bureacracy, since you actually get out there and DO something with respect to officiating, which is one of the few USAT functions people here have universally valued.  Stop taking the negative comments personally.  The complaints are aimed at those who decide what resources you are allotted to do your job, and the upshot here has been that people would like to see you get a lot more of the budget, as opposed to the line items that can be lumped under "brown nosing the IOC."  The lion’s share of the negative comments about USAT have been from people who are on your side.

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Of course the money issue is compounded by the officiating bureacracy at USAT.  It is a nightmare but is so entrenched that we are not likely to see much change.  I know many worship those who run the bureacracy but I suggest that those who do open their eyes as those bureacrats are the cause of the problem.

Since "those who run the bureacracy" is a euphemism for me, and since the rest of your comments have some merit, please elaborate on how I am the problem as far as having officials available to race directors. If you could open MY eyes, it might help. I wish you could feel free to use your name.  RST is certainly an open place, and there is really no need to hide one’s identity. -Charlie Crawford USAT Commissioner of Officials

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I have read with interest this thread. Frankly, RST is all bark and no bite. Over and over pleas are made to form an organization that only consists of age groupers. And, over and over, nothing happens, Why?  First,  RST has maybe 100 regular posters and maybe 3000-4000 who regularly check in but who couldn’t care less (this comes from a company who used – and I say used – RST as part of its marketing strategy).  How is the 100 who regularly post to RST a voice for the sport?  Why do the 100 who post speak for the sport and not those who chose to to go the USAT route?  Second, most people could care less about Ironman as an alter of the sport (although admittedly and justifiably admire the race and those who do it).  But just as the ITU does not speak for the 100 or so who post here, the Ironman does not speak for the vast majority of athletes.  And third, for good or ill, most are satisfied with being able to race and could care less about the politics. Now, on to Emilio’s questions.  Of course he is right about the information he got at World’s.  Yes the individuals representing USAT were concerned solely about the Olympics. Frankly, it was probably a little annoying about how our elected representatives worshipped the ground the pros walked on and were too high and mighty to concern themselves with the age groupers.  However, Emilio and any other concerned age grouper should request a copy of the budget. The money brought in by age group dues is spent solely on age group programs. The budget is available upon request to any USAT member. Emilio’s concerns about entry fees and uniforms are outside the control of USAT and smack of elitism.  Afterall, couldn’t the argument be made that USAT spends too much resources on Worlds and elite age groupers and not enough on grass roots efforts?  Again, look at the budget.  Two staff members (including Deputy Director Tim Yount) are exclusively assigned to TEAM USA.  USAT spend over $200,000 on its qualifiers. What is that, for 800-1200 members out of 20,000? Come on Emilio, you can’t say that USAT spends all its resources on pros and then complain that age group TEAM USA is unfairly treated. What about Joe Local Triathlete?  Isn’t he really underfunded? A race director has to pay little or nothing to sanction a race.  The sanction fee is paid by the $5 one day permits.  That money does not come out of a race director’s pocket and for the little extra administrative headache he or she gets a damn good insurance plan.   The age groupers also get quite a bit.  First, they know that the race is adequately insured.  Second, they know that there are safety standards that the race director must adhere to and a grievance process if the race director does not (yes, there are race directors who have been refused a sanction for running an unsafe race). Third, participation in the national rankings (how hard did you try to be ranked first last year Emilio?).  And fourth, a race run by a standard set of rules. Officials.  Now there you have a problem.  Officials are paid $50 a race and expenses.  If you have a race with 6 officials that have to come from 400 miles away  a race director’s expenses can run over $1000.  Now that is a quandry. The athletes deserve officials and the race director deserves to at least break even.  If more USAT members would spend a Saturday training to be an official instead of being so self centered about training, cost for officials would drop and more races would be officiated.  USAT cannot mandate officials because USAT cannot force the race directors to spend money. Of course the money issue is compounded by the officiating bureacracy at USAT.  It is a nightmare but is so entrenched that we are not likely to see much change.  I know many worship those who run the bureacracy but I suggest that those who do open their eyes as those bureacrats are the cause of the problem. Emilio, you are right about the bigwigs and being out of touch (who did pay for the wine?). Where you are wrong is believing that RST can make one damn bit of difference.  There was some talk (again) about a forming a separate organization.  Well, if RST has the power to form a separate organization it has the power to place an RST zealot on the Board (Emilio?).  Here is my challenge.  The Board member currently running for the at-large seat is remarkably ineffective, self absorbed and is extremely biased concerning that Board members self interest.  RST- why don’t you organize a write in campaign around a candidate of your choice and show the triathlon world that you are a powerful voice in triathlon.  I will vote for the candidate of your choice. TriMillenium

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Actually, I think it would be the other way around. The Pro entity would probably be better off finacialy, since they would retain all of the funding they recieve for being an Olympic sport. The age group side would be going back to being something like what it was many years ago, always underfunded. The only difference though, i think there would be a lot more members now than there was 10 – 15 years ago, which might help to improve that outlook. Mike Plumb

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And that might not be such a bad thing… all the real arseholes (organisers, officials & competitors alike) will tend to go where the money is… — MB — what, me cynical ??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, I think it would be the other way around. The Pro entity would probably be better off finacialy, since they would retain all of the funding they recieve for being an Olympic sport. The age group side would be going back to being something like what it was many years ago, always underfunded. The only difference though, i think there would be a lot more members now than there was 10 – 15 years ago, which might help to improve that outlook. Mike Plumb

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Sounds like we might be on to something.  I do NOT want to defy or boycott any current federation,  I think USAT is better than nothing, and a few race directors seam to be benefiting from sanctioning their races, but I am all for finding out how much better than nothing they really are. Remember that the US age groupers jointly have power by numbers and that anything we start here can and will cross borders. Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

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Dear Paul, Thanks for the very well thought out post. You obviously have a lot of knowledge about our sport and its political workings. Please don’t just lurk. Wendy in St. Pete Beach

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I really think it is time for their to be a split, one governing body to represent the age groupers, and another to look out for the Pro’s. Mike Plumb

Mike, I might agree with you on that one but without a look at their budget I don’t know what the viability of a pro organization would be. I have no doubt that an AG organization would be very viable. Does anyone know if the USAT publishes their financial information? Wendy

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Sounds like we might be on to something.  I do want to defy or boycott any current federation,  I think USAT is better than nothing, but I am all for finding out how much better than nothing they really are. Remember that the US age groupers jointly have power by numbers and that anything we start here will cross borders. Emilio De Soto II

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Pul, welcome from lurkdom, and BTW, congrats on a good race in Montreal, you to Emilio.A lot of good points have been mentioned by both of you. I just want to thank you for bringing up the point that all of these questions need to be answered. I know from a personal standpoint, I have really lost interest in Nationals and Worlds. From my perspective, the age group triathletes have become an aside to the Pro competition. Not to say that there isn’t a place or a need for the Pro’s to be supported in their push for the Olympics.  USAT should decide which cause is theirs to push for. I really think it is time for their to be a split, one governing body to represent the age groupers, and another to look out for the Pro’s. Mike Plumb

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I confess that I have been an RST lurker for a long time but after a long visit with Emilio last week I have been convinced that its time to become a little more vocal.  I have been involved in many different aspects of triathlon for 15 years and I think the question that Emilio asks is extremely important.  I want to preface what I say by first saying that I hold the people who work at USAT in the highest regard – especially Tim Yount whom I consider a personal friend and who gives tirelessly to the sport. But… I think that there is a fundamental conflict of interest between the Olympic goals of national federations and what age group athletes like myself want.  USAT is a NGB which works under the aegis of the USOC.  It’s principal objective is to prepare athletes to compete in the Olympics.  This means juniors and junior programs and elite athlete programs – not age group programs.  The age group programs are really an artifact of how USAT (formerly Tri Fed) came into existence (a group of race directors plus some others wanted among other things to create an entity which would allow them to get insurance for their races).  Age group athletes through their membership fees have "sponsored" Tri Fed for years.  Only six years has USAT qualified to receive funds from the USOC for various programs – all of which are focused on Olympic goals.  There is clearly a lot of history here which I have left out or may have gotten a little wrong but for the most part the main point is that Olympic goals are not equal to age group goals. Having said that, I will give the USAT board (wish there were a few more people running!!!) and the Steve Locke the benefit of the doubt.  I will say that I believe that if we, the age group athletes give them a message, they will respond.  I think Emilio’s message is clear:  we don’t know what you do for us. Now we have to tell them what we would like them to do.  I certainly don’t have all the answers but I have a few suggestions (in no particular order): 1)  Run a great national championship race – start planning it a couple years in advance at least 2)  Continue the national ranking system 3)  Provide the officials with whatever assistance they need with the goal of having all USAT sanctioned races officiated 4)  Be advocates for age group athletes at worlds – the Isabelle Gagnon issue at Montreal is a total joke (she is a pro who competed as an age group athlete) as well as the $150 entry fee. 5)  Continue your insurance program for race directors as well as assisting new race directors (via a hot line?) in putting on their events 6)  Run coaching clinics at some of the larger races for athletes 7)  Make your web site much more interactive (race results, chat rooms, …)  Help to insure safe, quality events – some minimum quality levels would be nice like A, B and C quality races where an A race has some number of officials, some number of volunteers, … I am sure that this could be a better list but its a start.  Thank you Emilio for starting this thread.  For those athletes who are fortunate enough to qualify for worlds, an even more difficult question is what can age group athletes do about the ITU.  But that’s for another thread… Paul Barford

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One more question:  Has anyone in RST ever received a response from USAT for thread they have ever posted?

No. We get responses from individuals who are also USAT officials, board members, etc. etc. I always appreciate their responses and their participation. It does, however, help to cloudy up the issue because it’s impossible to separate the individual from the organization in this online community. Sure would help us feel better and spread good cheer if there was a single response from USAT. That would alleviate some of the angst that’s directed at Charlie, Ray, and Bruce for lack of a better target. It is tough to separate the persons from the organization. Ray is a friend of mine who I swim with and have coffee a few times per week. I knew him long before I ever realized he was involved with USAT at anything other than a member level. When I talk to Ray online about USAT issues, etc. I forget that he’s USAT because he was my friend first. However, I knew Bruce online as a USAT official before I ever met him in person. So I think of Bruce as USAT. I’ve yet to meet Charlie, and hope he doesn’t punch me when I do. Schwing – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

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Wow, a lot of responses to the WHAT DOES USAT DO? thread in just such a short period of time.  I am sure many of you share the same sentiments as a lot of lurkers, and if you notice, nobody has really responded in a positive way. I motive for posing this question was simply because I just got back from ITU World’s.  There I spoke with a number of the big wigs from USAT and ITU, and all they seamed to care about was the Olympics.  What they were going to do there, the kind of VIP seating they were going to have for other events, and how much money they could raise for the "team" and themselves to get there. Yes I think the Olympics are very important, but none of us age groupers will ever go there.  Even the younger age groups, our future hopefuls, you are not getting anything unless you are either an elite or a junior elite. So here are more specific questions: What about the rest of us age groupers?   How much money do we put into it, between membership and entries in the World’s races and then paying expensive prices for poor quality (non-triathlon) uniforms?   How much does a race director have to pay to be sanctioned by USAT? What does that race director get for the money he pays USAT? What do we the age groupers get for having a race sanctioned by USAT? How much are drafting officials paid?  (They can’t get paid enough as far as I am concerned). I have been around a long time (19 years of triathlons), and I have seen a lot of federations and associations come and go, but I sincerely am now just wondering all this now after over hearing some of the big wigs babbling over wine and an expensive dinner in Montreal (probably paid for by our membership dollars). Before I finish, I want to proclaim Charlie Crawford as being the best of the best when it comes to the drafting issue.  Charlie, you do it better than anyone and I hope you are getting paid well for what you do. One more question:  Has anyone in RST ever received a response from USAT for thread they have ever posted? Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

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Question:

i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

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Under British Triathlon Association rules you would be disqualified for nudity – I guess you must be more open minded out there. I think you should cover up to limit dehydration. Diane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

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i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

 At IMC, you would be disqualified also. — Tri Your Hardest!   /O     ___o      o  ~~~~   _ <,_    <|        (*)/ (*)      / Darrin Bartlett

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i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

A few things: 1) Depending on the day you may not get much sun at the Vineman. It really depends on what the marine cloud/fog layer does on the day. I have done the race twice once with overcast conditions almost the whole race and the other time it was sunny most of the day and quite warm. 2) It is my understanding that there is a rule in place now that say you must wear a top of some sort while racing both on the bike and on the run. 3) The new fabrics such as coolmax, coretech, technofine etc, actually help to keep you cool by(and I am not really sure on this) assisting with the evaporative cooling effect. Steve Fleck

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i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

Personally, I prefer racing wearing a singlet.  If you do in fact decide to race with a singlet or coolmax shirt, please wear it on a few training runs.  Since you normally train bare chested, your "man nipples" might not be used to any chafing that may occur…..and this chafing is mighty unpleasant.  To summarize, train with the shirt, lube up your nipples (or cover them with band-aids), and have a great race. Greg Pressler

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I’m not sure that covering help reduce dehydration. If I remember Mark Jenkins info on the subject, clothing is a detriment to cooling until it becomes saturated enough to allow evaporation on its surface. The evaporation is what cools. When I cool off in front of a fan (out of public view), I always cool off faster without clothing. What I’m not sure about is the effect of the sun on the skin. Even with sunscreen, the direct sunlight on the skin may have some heating effect. It’s probably related to sunburn, in which case the appropriate sunscreen should do just as well as clothing. I wear a singlet for two reasons. The first is because the rules require it, but even if they did not, the second would win the day. I hold a firm commitment to neighborhood beautification, and the sight of me, dressed only in a Speedo, parading around the neighborhood does not appeal. Chafing nipples is only a problem on cool days when the skin is at that tacky stage between wet and dry. For me, Runner’s Lube or Body Glide solves the chafing problem there and elsewhere. Under British Triathlon Association rules you would be disqualified for nudity – I guess you must be more open minded out there. I think you should cover up to limit dehydration. Diane i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

Rick Denney Take what you want and leave the rest.

Response:

Damian: To be honest, I doubt any ol’ singlet will provide much sun protection.  I’d say wear (or not wear( something that’s comfortable for you.  As for the sun, just slap on some sunscreen before the start of the race (usually after they mark you up or else the numbers just come off). Kendall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

Response:

There is a pre race expo which will have at the very least "Vineman" tops and probably DeSoto, Zoot, Orca (maybe mail order only) and a few others to try on and purchase. The sun is strong out here right now – get a top! I’ll be at run aid station #4 – what kind of beer do you like?  Just kidding. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’m doing the full at vineman in a couple of weeks and haven’t bought a singlet yet. i always train bare chested and raced a half a month ago without a shirt.  am i missing something by not wearing a singlet on the run? i don’t burn easily but wonder if 26.2 miles in the napa sun might drain me without some cover.  any recommendations?

Response:

Question:

Just wanted to give all who responded an update. I’ve tried postasium before without much luck.  Since reading all the responses, I have increased my sodium intake, mostly through salty foods, and sports drinks.  I have never been a big salt lover, so I’m not that concerned about high blood pressure, although I will keep a watch on it. I really haven’t started training hard yet, but one thing I have noticed is that I do not feel as dehydrated as I sometimes do.  This is most noticealble in the morning when I wake up.  My mouth feels kind of moist which is a big change for me.  I am used to waking up and being extremely thirsty right off the bat. I also feel an increased energy level, and less fatigued. Maybe I was a bit salt-deficient in my diet before. It’s a little too early to tell, but I am hopeful that this is going to help with the problem. I’ll let everyone know how this plays out in case anyone else can benefit from my experience. Thanks to all who responded! Steve. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’ve been running for about 10 years, and I have never had a good marathon – mostly due to quadricep cramps. I posted this to rec.running, but I didn’t get any responses, so I am hoping that some of you triathlon athletes might have some experience with this problem, and hopefully some suggestions on how to deal with it. I’m 36, male, 6′ 1" and weigh about 185 (usualy 175 when I’m training) I’ve put in some reasonable training efforts – running 70 miles a week and holding it for about 4 weeks in the peak of my training. I also done hill training and speed work. I’ve been able to run 15 mile training runs at 7 minutes per mile, but my best marathon time is 4 hours 20 minutes.  When I run a marathon, I usually shoot for an even 9 minute pace because I am afraid of the cramps. Somewhere in the 18-22 mile area, I usually get severe cramps on the front part of my upper legs, forcing me to stop which only makes them more severe.  Once this sets in, I start cramping all over the place – it’s like my body is just filled with lactic acid. I was watching a show on tv where these 2 guys were out in a rain forest, and they used salt to prevent cramping.  Apparently it is a key item to have when traveling through a rain forest. So I am wondering if salt might help me avoid these terible cramps. I always drink plenty of fluid at all the water stops.  I don’t think I could drink more than I have been without getting sick. It’s a shame because I have run some great times in 15 mile runs, but those last 6 miles can add quite a few minutes to your time if you are falling apart. Any feedback as to what might help me avoid these nasty cramps would be very appreciated.  I’m running the New York City marathon in November, and I really want to have a better go at it this time. Thanks, Steve

Response:

I’ve heard that certain minerals like potassium are helpful in preventing cramps (which is why people eat bananas –which are high in potassium — during some distance events).  so perhaps something like that would help. also, if you’re simply worried about lactic acid, the sports drink Cytomax (i  am not on their payroll) is supposed to help buffer lactic acid, as is the supplement Endurox.  i have several very serious (national and international caliber) triathlete friends who have used both with pleasing results. best of luck, mike callaghan  

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I’ve had a lot of problems with quad cramps. Magnesium (with some calcium) supplements seem to help quite a bit. It’s not the whole solution for me since I still get them occasionally (used to get them at least every 3-4 weeks), but it’s helped a lot. David. — Head, Teaching and Learning     URL:   http://tltsu.anu.edu.au/~dgb900 |   Technology Support Unit       phone: {intl+61+2 | (02)} 6249 5026    | Australian National University  FAX:   {intl+61+2 | (02)} 6249 3992    |

Response:

Check out this site:  http://riceinfo.rice.edu/~jenky/ Includes articles on salt loss, dehydration, etc. I also have trouble with cramps.  I sweat severly and so am trying to maintain higher sodium levels throughout the week.  Hopefully, this will help the long weekend rides and runs. I will try the idea mentioned of alternating water and energy drink… Swimslug

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Or… You might try boosting the length of your long run.  You said that you do around 15 miles?  If that’s been your longest training run, I’d increase that a bit (to 20 miles, or so.. everybody is different in that regard). Make sure you do that at an easy pace.  I train with people around here that have marathon times in the low 2:20’s who swear by their long-slow-distance day done once per week.  I don’t do those at 7 min pace, and neither do those guys.  Likewise, I wouldn’t do more than 2 hard days per week, either. One day is a tempo day (usually a semi-fast trail run) and the other is either fartlek on a trail, or speedwork on a track. Anyway- as far as cramps go:  make sure they aren’t due to dehydration or sodium depletion (the 2 most common causes of cramping).  Sometimes all you need is to drink some electrolyte solution throughout your race (alternating with water) and you’ll be fine.  If this doesn’t work, you might consider taking some vitamin E.  Take 400 units/day.  They are available at most grocery stores and pharmacies.  A friend of mine had some pretty serious cramps that occurred only during long bike races (100-120 miles) in the heat.  He’d hit some hill during the race, and his quads would completely seize up on him.  The only thing he has been able to do to stave them off is taking vitamin E the day before and the day of his race.  I think for most people, maintaining good hydration (clear to pale-yellow urine) is key.  One last thing.  If you are racing in the heat- do some training in the heat. Good luck!

Response:

I don’t know if salt is the solution to your problem. Usually, cramps occur when dehydration happens. Adding salt, namely sodium, will drive more water out of the muscles and would make the dehydration worse. What type of fluid are you drinking? If you drink more sports drink than water that might be a problem. Having fluid that is too rich in other stuff could prevent you from gastric emptying (fluid leaving your stomach, entering the intestines, and being absorbed by the body). I’ve had that problem when I first did triathlons when I drank nothing but Gatorade at each aid station. I got that queasy feeling in my stomach, and major cramping all over the body. I also vomited up so much liquid after the race I was amazed. The cure? Drinking a lot more water than drink. Sure I indulge in sports drink during the race, but I limit myself to one cup sports drink to every 3 cups water. Anyway, this is just a stab in the dark. If you have any of the above symptoms though, you might want to consider this.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

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Hi, I’ve been running for about 10 years, and I have never had a good marathon – mostly due to quadricep cramps. I posted this to rec.running, but I didn’t get any responses, so I am hoping that some of you triathlon athletes might have some experience with this problem, and hopefully some suggestions on how to deal with it. I’m 36, male, 6′ 1" and weigh about 185 (usualy 175 when I’m training) I’ve put in some reasonable training efforts – running 70 miles a week and holding it for about 4 weeks in the peak of my training. I also done hill training and speed work. I’ve been able to run 15 mile training runs at 7 minutes per mile, but my best marathon time is 4 hours 20 minutes.  When I run a marathon, I usually shoot for an even 9 minute pace because I am afraid of the cramps. Somewhere in the 18-22 mile area, I usually get severe cramps on the front part of my upper legs, forcing me to stop which only makes them more severe.  Once this sets in, I start cramping all over the place – it’s like my body is just filled with lactic acid. I was watching a show on tv where these 2 guys were out in a rain forest, and they used salt to prevent cramping.  Apparently it is a key item to have when traveling through a rain forest. So I am wondering if salt might help me avoid these terible cramps. I always drink plenty of fluid at all the water stops.  I don’t think I could drink more than I have been without getting sick. It’s a shame because I have run some great times in 15 mile runs, but those last 6 miles can add quite a few minutes to your time if you are falling apart. Any feedback as to what might help me avoid these nasty cramps would be very appreciated.  I’m running the New York City marathon in November, and I really want to have a better go at it this time. Thanks, Steve

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Question:

To whom it may concern: I am very interested in buying someone’s used computrainer. . . if they are interested in selling. . . . Please contact by phone or e-mail. . . Thanks in Advance! Mike Flynn

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USA Triathlon has a number of CompuTrainers for sale. If interested, contact Steve Locke USA Triathlon

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Question:

Does anyone have any good recipes for sport drinks…you know something I can whip up in the blender? Thanks Marc Yellin Ithaca College

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This is a good fluid replacer sports drink, freeze in your water bottle for a long, hot ride: 2 tbs sugar (or whatever sweetner you prefer, honey, etc) 1/8 tsp salt 16oz caffeine free lemon tea 2 oz apple or orange juice Dissolve sugar and salt in the hot tea. Pour in juice. Adjust for taste. Put in water bottle and refrigerate.  You don’t have to mess up the blender. 15g carb. scant protein and fat. I like it because it is quick, cheap and does the trick. For a protein drink, with some fat, more like a meal replacement:  2 packets of Instant Breakfast Powder (or preferably sports protein powder) 16 oz skim or lowfat milk 1 or 2 bananas 1 or 2 tbs peanut butter {2 = 10g of fat } Blend until smooth. Per 10 oz serving-70 g carb, 17 g protein, very approx. Regards, Lee Rudin San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

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Question:

Having been exposed to the drafting issue from multiple fronts (rst, magazines, actual participation in ITU events), one aspect really puzzles me, and that’s the safety aspect of drafting.  In cycling, there are various rules in place to increase safety: 1) Categorization System:  Racers are categorized by ability.  Cat 5 (least experienced) to Cat 1 (most experienced and proven).  This separates inexperienced (and potentially dangerous) cyclists from the more experienced riders.  All national level races (and many regional and local ones) are typically Cat 1.  Moving from Cat 5 to Cat 1 can take years. 2) Equipment:  Bicycles geometries (ie. no funny bikes) and equipment (ie. no aero-bars) are enforced. Why hasn’t the ITU, as an international sports governing body, examined the safety implications of drafting?  I haven’t even heard a single *official* mention of it (although there have been posts and mag articles to that effect).  IMHO, there’s a real potential for serious injury or death, with a much higher likelihood than in cycling events without these safety precautions. Drafting should proceed if and only if: 1) A categorization process is identified and followed.  All draft-legal participants should have Cat-x (should really be Cat 1, but I guess that would be up for debate) certification through a recognized cycling federation (eg. USCF in the States). The implication on Triathlon is that many pros would be forced to undergo Cat registration, which means that a large percentage of them could not race for (potentially) a year or more! 2) Strict enforcement of equipment restrictions.  All draft-legal participants should only race on crit-legal machines.  This means no aero bars, no beam bikes, no funny bikes, just standard road frames. The implication here is: say goodbye to all tri-bike related sponsorships, as well as the "techno-attractiveness" of the sport.  On the other hand, it also levels the playing field, in that a $1200 road bike is pretty comparable to a $4000 road bike (in contrast to tri bikes).  Auugh! Please don’t flame me on that last point! 3) <Insert others Here <Insert Impact here I love the sport of triathlon, and would *prefer* that it stay in the draft-illegal format (albeit somewhat selfishly – it’s what I train for).  On the other hand, if it evolves, the 8+ years of investment I’ve spent (time, money & tears) on triathlon would not allow me to walk away… I would have to adjust as well.  I just want to ensure that the various sports governing bodies do the following: A) For God’s sake, ensure safety!!!  Les, please respect the safety of athletes and the well-being of their families. B) Follow a democratic process If the above two conditions are met, I will accept a change (must admit B) is completely off topic of this post).  If not, I will fight like hell. On a completely unrelated topic I just purchased a set of 650c Specialized Tri-pokes.  Yipee! Rob.

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Having been exposed to the drafting issue from multiple fronts (rst, magazines, actual participation in ITU events), one aspect really puzzles me, and that’s the safety aspect of drafting.  In cycling, there are various rules in place to increase safety: 1) Categorization System:  Racers are categorized by ability.  Cat 5 (least experienced) to Cat 1 (most experienced and proven).  This separates inexperienced (and potentially dangerous) cyclists from the more experienced riders.  All national level races (and many regional and local ones) are typically Cat 1.  Moving from Cat 5 to Cat 1 can take years.

That’s why drafting is only being allowed in the elite ranks.   2) Equipment:  Bicycles geometries (ie. no funny bikes) and equipment (ie. no aero-bars) are enforced. Why hasn’t the ITU, as an international sports governing body, examined the safety implications of drafting?  I haven’t even heard a single *official* mention of it (although there have been posts and mag articles to that effect).  IMHO, there’s a real potential for serious injury or death, with a much higher likelihood than in cycling events without these safety precautions.

USA Tri has very specific bike geo specs that nearly match cyclings.  As far as aerobar use that’s an issue that the ITU has talked about (they asked my committee for our opinion) but I’ve seen no action.  I posted my committee’s response some time ago.  Here it is again: BACKGROUND:   At the ITU’s request Steve Locke asked the TriFed/USA Safety & Rules   committee to come up with a position statement on the safety of aerobar   use in draft-legal races.  This following position statement has nothing   to do with the committee’s opinion on allowing/dis-allowing drafting in   triathlons in general. POSITION STATMENT:   The TriFed/USA Safety & Rules committee has reached a consensus opinion   that aerobar use in draft-legal races will significantly increase the   safety risk for competitors.  For this reason we feel that, if drafting   is legal in a specific race, the athletes should not be permitted to ride   in the aero-position, on aerobars, when drafting.  At all other times   aerobar use should be allowed.  Drafting can be defined per the current   applicable rules.  The "aero-position" could be defined as "anytime the   athlete’s elbows/forearms are resting on the bicycle".  We leave all   other detailed rule development to the ITU. —    LSC (aka Larry Chapman)    (970) 229-3117

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1) Categorization System:  Racers are categorized by ability.  Cat 5 2) Equipment:  Bicycles geometries (ie. no funny bikes) and equipment (ie. no aero-bars) are enforced.

Another equipment requirement is full jerseys (no sleeve-less tops) and shorts to at least mid-thigh. This provides good protection against road rash (a lot of riders will wear two jerseys or a t-shirt under their jersey). Now consider the fact that triathletes will be dizzy from swimming and sprinting through transition, and will then ride their funny bikes in speedos and no tops…. CV

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As pointed out by Karen Smyers, it was ironic at Cancun that the ITU series champion Brad Beven stacked his bike in a pack incident. As one of the more experienced pack riders there, does’nt this constitute the writing on the wall as far as the ITU are concerned ? tim

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Question:

: Hi all, :       I’m training for a sprint that has a 3 mile run. : My questions is: Will it be to my advantage when training : to run more than 3 miles, and if so, how much more should : I train without it being a disadvantage? :       :       Also, I’m walking for running recovery workouts. : Do you all think this is a good recovery work and if so, : what kind of walking-milage.  I usually walk after doing : running intervals. :       Thanks in advance, :       -Dave David, A program I developed may be able to help you to determine the training you require for the sprint event.  It is a running expert system called "runcoach.zip", and it is available as shareware via FTP.  The program develops an individualised running program based on your ability.  This schedule can be targetted to achieve a goal time, and has lots of running knowledge about achieving running goals.  It is suited for triathlon as you can tell the program how many days a week you want to set aside for running (eg 3 or 4).  You can also tell it which days. You can get it from several FTP sites, for example:    wuarchive.wustl.edu:/pub/MSDOS_UPLOADS/sports/runcoach.zip Good luck with the event Drop me an email if you have any problems Regards Paul Shields

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-Hi all, –        I’m training for a sprint that has a 3 mile run. -My questions is: Will it be to my advantage when training -to run more than 3 miles, and if so, how much more should -I train without it being a disadvantage? – Just make one run a week at least 4.5 miles.  (This will make the 3 mile run after the bike seem short and give you both a physiological and psychological advantage. –        Also, I’m walking for running recovery workouts. -Do you all think this is a good recovery work and if so, -what kind of walking-milage.  I usually walk after doing -running intervals. – I used to walk for recovery between intervals, but most of the top runners here jog (very easy) between intervals; so in essence, intervals for them are a continuous run with just a wide variation in pace.  When I started doing these workouts, my running has vastly improved (but I still have a long way to go…) Hope this helps! Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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Hi all,         I’m training for a sprint that has a 3 mile run. My questions is: Will it be to my advantage when training to run more than 3 miles, and if so, how much more should I train without it being a disadvantage?         Also, I’m walking for running recovery workouts. Do you all think this is a good recovery work and if so, what kind of walking-milage.  I usually walk after doing running intervals.         Thanks in advance,         -Dave

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