Question:

I was in the same situation as you. www.totalimersion.net is a god send. I went to a two day class and it really improved my swimming. If you casn’t get to a class, read the articles or buy his book "Swimming Made Easy" It’s all about balance and economy. Invest in a good wetsuit even if not required in the race. It helps out with bouyance. I’m trying my first IM this summer. Three years ago I could hardly swim 100 m.

Response:

Hey Rob, I’m a bit of a newbie/lurker here as I have only recently made the decision to do a Try-A-Tri in May. I, too, am starting not quite from scratch, but need a lot of work. I have done the front crawl with the face out of the water for years, but after seeing triathletes (and swimmers, of course) putting their faces in the water for the exhale, I figured I should learn that in order to be most efficient. I’m also going to be starting private lessons soon, mainly to learn the front crawl properly, and to correct my technique on other strokes if necessary. I’m decent (tho’ self-taught) at the side stroke, breast stroke, and various back strokes and crawl. Distance-wise, I can nearly do the race distance now using these other strokes, but am not wasting my time doing the front crawl improperly any longer… I’ll wait for the lessons. There are many of us in the same boat here, Cam — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Response:

scratch, but need a lot of work. I have done the front crawl with the face out of the water for years, but after seeing triathletes (and swimmers, of course) putting their faces in the water for the exhale, I figured I should learn that in order to be most efficient.

Definitely want to do so – face out is much more tiring.   For racing purposes, you don’t need to worry about other strokes, unless you want a rest stroke for the very long swims. — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rob, I’m in the same position as you, I can swim 25yd front crawl then I’m out of breath. I’m aiming for my first sprint tri in May. I’ll keep you updated how my swimming is going. Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Yes, please do. Its good to hear that theres other novice lurkers on the group Second lesson at lunchtime today! Have been practising and feel that I have defnately improved over this past week. I’ll let you know how it goes. cheers Rob

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Rob, I’m a bit of a newbie/lurker here as I have only recently made the decision to do a Try-A-Tri in May. I, too, am starting not quite from scratch, but need a lot of work. I have done the front crawl with the face out of the water for years, but after seeing triathletes (and swimmers, of course) putting their faces in the water for the exhale, I figured I should learn that in order to be most efficient. I’m also going to be starting private lessons soon, mainly to learn the front crawl properly, and to correct my technique on other strokes if necessary. I’m decent (tho’ self-taught) at the side stroke, breast stroke, and various back strokes and crawl. Distance-wise, I can nearly do the race distance now using these other strokes, but am not wasting my time doing the front crawl improperly any longer… I’ll wait for the lessons. There are many of us in the same boat here, Cam — Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

I can do the exhaling underwater bit. Good luck anyway – its been something I’ve been meaning to do for a couple of years now  (sort out my swimming I mean) and am glad I have finally motivated myself to do it. cheers Rob

Response:

Rob, I’m in the same position as you, I can swim 25yd front crawl then I’m out of breath. I’m aiming for my first sprint tri in May. I’ll keep you updated how my swimming is going. You guys have more than enough time.  I started swimming late in February last year for a 2400m ocean swim.  I too could go only 25-50 yards at a time and then I’d need to stop and breathe.  I went out about every 5 days and swam 1000-2000m and within 2 months, I had built up my endurance to swim it nearly non stop, with a 15 sec breather every 400yards.   Just keep swimming, and stop when you have to.  I give people the same suggestions when they start running – go 3 miles, and whenever you need to stop and walk for 20 seconds, then start running again.

Cool, good to hear its feasible anyway! Thats exactly how I started running – I used to do three miles three times a week when I first started, and I used to have to stop for a breather every now and again.  There was a very small hill (and I mean small) less than a mile from my flat, and I very clearly remember having to stop on it, and this very drunk guy shouting ‘encouragement’ at me.  Its amazing when I think back to how unfit I was! cheers Rob

Response:

I can do the exhaling underwater bit. Good luck anyway – its been something I’ve been meaning to do for a couple of years now  (sort out my swimming I mean) and am glad I have finally motivated myself to do it. cheers Rob

likewise… although i’ve been pretty much a non-swimmer for most of my life. after i saw my daughter enjoying and doing so well at her swim classes, it got me to thinking…. i should do this too! best of luck to you too, Cam

Response:

scratch, but need a lot of work. I have done the front crawl with the face out of the water for years, but after seeing triathletes (and swimmers, of course) putting their faces in the water for the exhale, I figured I should learn that in order to be most efficient. Definitely want to do so – face out is much more tiring.   For racing purposes, you don’t need to worry about other strokes, unless you want a rest stroke for the very long swims.

in my case i may need another stroke for a bit of a rest here and there, depending on how proficient i become at the front crawl in the next few months. thanks… Cam

Response:

<snip offer of training in Canada I meant Windsor, UK! I live in Wimbledon, London.  

Yes, but the swim over to Ontario will do wonders for your swimming stamina… Iain

Response:

Heck, if I would have know you were a Brit I would of used a whole different line of slander. Even though the Brits aren’t Americans like the Canadians, they are still OK. When I saw them playing the Star Spangled Banner (our national anthem) at the changing of the guard in honor of the dead from the WTC I was moved and felt a real kinship. Since then I think we have both kick some Al Quida ass. We have reduced them from taking multiple planes at a time to sending some guy with exploding shoes who can’t get the the fricken fuse lit. And you can trust that even though the shoe man was a Brit it means nothing to us. You guys are the best. Heck we have our own Taliboy. BW P.S. I like to use "heck" and "big ole" as much as possible to prove I’m an Merican. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What?!!! Canadians can swim in the winter? I thought even the indoor pools froze over. Seriously, I did my first with about the same amount of training time. You won’t have any problem if you’re diligent in training. I did an international (Olympic) length which is a 1.5k (you’re Canadian, you can convert that to meters). I couldn’t swim 100 yards (that’s like a meter but shorter or longer) without totally losing my breath. I resorted to using a snorkel and mask until I had the muscle/lung tone to do the whole distance. Then I weaned myself off the snorkle by doing 100 with, 100 without and increasing the without each workout until I was free of it. I am 40+, 6′4, ~240 lbs (that’s like a a stones weight or a kilo or something but weighs less or more) and I have the swimming aerodynamics (or is it aquadynamics?) of a barge. One final note. If you hear a loud slap, slap, slap with each stroke; the lake is FROZEN! Your fellow American (Yes Canadians are Americans too!) BW ;^) Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob I meant Windsor, UK! I live in Wimbledon, London.  Hopefully somewhat warmer than canada at this time of year, though you do have to swim in the Thames for locals Tris which is not an attractive prospect. Anyway – thanks to both who replied for the advice.  I will check out the total immersion website, look for a swimming/tri club to train with and work hard at building my stamina! I’m glad to hear my schedule is feasible. Down the pool tomorrow (saturday) morning! cheers Rob

Response:

<snip offer of training in Canada I meant Windsor, UK! I live in Wimbledon, London.   Yes, but the swim over to Ontario will do wonders for your swimming stamina… Iain

It certainly would! Managed some time in the pool on saturday, was quite pleased with my progress! I’m starting to believe its a doable schedule! I didnt manage any huge distance, indeed I stopped for a short rest after every length (30m pool), but I did quite a few lengths, and found the new style a lot easier. cheers Rob

Response:

Rob, I’m in the same position as you, I can swim 25yd front crawl then I’m out of breath. I’m aiming for my first sprint tri in May. I’ll keep you updated how my swimming is going.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Response:

Rob, I’m in the same position as you, I can swim 25yd front crawl then I’m out of breath. I’m aiming for my first sprint tri in May. I’ll keep you updated how my swimming is going.

You guys have more than enough time.  I started swimming late in February last year for a 2400m ocean swim.  I too could go only 25-50 yards at a time and then I’d need to stop and breathe.  I went out about every 5 days and swam 1000-2000m and within 2 months, I had built up my endurance to swim it nearly non stop, with a 15 sec breather every 400yards.   Just keep swimming, and stop when you have to.  I give people the same suggestions when they start running – go 3 miles, and whenever you need to stop and walk for 20 seconds, then start running again.   — Jason O’Rourke www.jor.com

Response:

What?!!! Canadians can swim in the winter? I thought even the indoor pools froze over. Seriously, I did my first with about the same amount of training time. You won’t have any problem if you’re diligent in training. I did an international (Olympic) length which is a 1.5k (you’re Canadian, you can convert that to meters). I couldn’t swim 100 yards (that’s like a meter but shorter or longer) without totally losing my breath. I resorted to using a snorkel and mask until I had the muscle/lung tone to do the whole distance. Then I weaned myself off the snorkle by doing 100 with, 100 without and increasing the without each workout until I was free of it. I am 40+, 6′4, ~240 lbs (that’s like a a stones weight or a kilo or something but weighs less or more) and I have the swimming aerodynamics (or is it aquadynamics?) of a barge. One final note. If you hear a loud slap, slap, slap with each stroke; the lake is FROZEN! Your fellow American (Yes Canadians are Americans too!) BW ;^) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What?!!! Canadians can swim in the winter? I thought even the indoor pools froze over. Seriously, I did my first with about the same amount of training time. You won’t have any problem if you’re diligent in training. I did an international (Olympic) length which is a 1.5k (you’re Canadian, you can convert that to meters). I couldn’t swim 100 yards (that’s like a meter but shorter or longer) without totally losing my breath. I resorted to using a snorkel and mask until I had the muscle/lung tone to do the whole distance. Then I weaned myself off the snorkle by doing 100 with, 100 without and increasing the without each workout until I was free of it. I am 40+, 6′4, ~240 lbs (that’s like a a stones weight or a kilo or something but weighs less or more) and I have the swimming aerodynamics (or is it aquadynamics?) of a barge. One final note. If you hear a loud slap, slap, slap with each stroke; the lake is FROZEN! Your fellow American (Yes Canadians are Americans too!) BW ;^) Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

I meant Windsor, UK! I live in Wimbledon, London.  Hopefully somewhat warmer than canada at this time of year, though you do have to swim in the Thames for locals Tris which is not an attractive prospect. Anyway – thanks to both who replied for the advice.  I will check out the total immersion website, look for a swimming/tri club to train with and work hard at building my stamina! I’m glad to hear my schedule is feasible. Down the pool tomorrow (saturday) morning! cheers Rob

Response:

Hi Rob, Sounds like you are starting with the most important aspect of swimming technique!  Glad to hear you are taking lessons.    For more info on swim technique you should check out the Total Immersion website at www.totalimmersion.net.     I would suggest you finish off this set of lessons and then you should find a masters group to swim with.  do you live in the Windsor area?   if so I know a few groups of people who are training for tris there that you could hook up with.    of if you are closer to London, we have at a triathlon training group here in London Ontario.  if details. Happy Laps!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Response:

Had my first swimming lesson this lunchtime! Ok, I’m not starting from scratch, I can swim, just not very effectively or far (I worked really hard a couple of years ago to be able to do the 200m required for PADI diving certification). Concentrating on improving my front crawl and I know I have a lot of work to do. Plan to do the Windsor Tri, sprint distance in June this year. So, is a 750m open water swim in 5 months time feasible do you think? Any advice appreciated. cheers Rob

Response:

Question:

This looked interesting in the ad I saw in Inside Triathlon.  Anyone have any experience with one?

Response:

This looked interesting in the ad I saw in Inside Triathlon.  Anyone have any experience with one?

yes is a nice one, but you should change the cranksets and saddle. — kind regards / mit freundlichen gr

Question:

I’ve heard that a lack of Calcium can contribute to cramping.  Calcium and Phosphorous must be taken in the correct ratio.  I think too much Phosphorous will cause problems with absorption and/or use of Calcium.  Good luck in your events! Lynne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m training for my first triathlon ever – we’re doing a very small one (1/8 mi swim, 8 mi bike, 1.8 mile run) in July, and two others (1/3 mi swim, 22 mi bike, 5k run) in August. Everytime I get off the bike (normally doing 10-12 miles) and go right into a run, my calf muscles always start to tighten up like they’re going to cramp.  It’s the same sensation I get sometimes when I’m just starting out the swimming season – which normally leads to a cramp.  When I do get a full-bore calf cramp, I can’t walk right for days, so I want to avoid that. I’m drinking a good amount of water, eating well (I think – people told me to push the bananas), and stretching. Today I noticed that after walking a good 5 minutes between the bike and run, things went ok. Any ideas?  Stretching hints?  Help!  The run is going to suck if my legs aren’t working!  Can it be the lack of hydration while on the bike? Kris

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everytime I get off the bike (normally doing 10-12 miles) and go right into a run, my calf muscles always start to tighten up like they’re going to cramp.  It’s the same sensation I get sometimes when I’m just starting out the swimming season – which normally leads to a cramp. When I do get a full-bore calf cramp, I can’t walk right for days, so I want to avoid that. For me walking helps better than complete rest. Try to walk every 30 minutes or so when you’re awake. Doesn’t have to be much, ten strides may be enough. Don’t stretch, because it will only make things worse. Wait until you’re almost completely healed before starting to stretch. I’m 41, and have had night cramps in my calves since I was 13, luckily not every night, only 5-8 nights per year. So you might say I’m a bit of an "experience-expert". I’m drinking a good amount of water, eating well (I think – people told me to push the bananas), and stretching. And still this might not be enough. It all depends on the details. Today I noticed that after walking a good 5 minutes between the bike and run, things went ok. It seems you have the same problem I have. I my case it turned out that my calve muscles were too stiff (not enough flexibility). The solution is doing the right stretching, not just any stretching. It may take months to improve your situation. The resting between events helps to relax the calve muscles. The stretching I describe below lasts for about 4.5 minutes, *and* you will need a wall, which is not always available in races. So there seems to be a slight preference to resting at first glance. However, if you’ve done this stretching for several months, you probably can skip it in racing and just do it in training. Any ideas?  Stretching hints?  Help!  The run is going to suck if my legs aren’t working! What helps for me is this: lean against a wall, face to the wall, and put one leg (knee stretched) after the other; push it firmly on the ground until you feel the calve of that one leg; keep it there for 20-30s–that’s phase 1. Now relax that leg for 2s (phase 2) and start the stretching (phase 3). For this place your (knee still stretched) leg even further away backwards and push your lower leg down, with emphasis on your knee–keep it there for the same period (20-30s). During phase 1 and 3 you should feel the stretching in the upper part of your calve. There should be no pain. Repeat three times for each leg. I hope I’ve described it clear enough for you to understand. I always thought that the stretching I used for running was sufficient for swimming and cycling, but it clearly isn’t. Running uses another part of the calf muscle, it seems, so stretching used in running won’t help to prevent muscle cramps in swimming or cycling.  Can it be the lack of hydration while on the bike? Could be. Investigate this by drinking more than you’re used to. If now your problems are gone and remain absent, you’ve probably found the solution. You can put extra water bottles in the back of your suit. You can also try using energy drinks (Isostar, Aquarius, etc.) instead of water, or use water in the first 30 min and then continue with energy drinks. Good luck! Rene van Belzen hurray [at] xs4all [dot] nl My Running Log http://www.xs4all.nl/~hurray/myrunninglog/

One thing that works also is taking very short steps when you start running.  As your legs get used to the transition, they will loosen up and you can take longer strides.

Response:

I’m training for my first triathlon ever – we’re doing a very small one (1/8 mi swim, 8 mi bike, 1.8 mile run) in July, and two others (1/3 mi swim, 22 mi bike, 5k run) in August. Everytime I get off the bike (normally doing 10-12 miles) and go right into a run, my calf muscles always start to tighten up like they’re going to cramp.  It’s the same sensation I get sometimes when I’m just starting out the swimming season – which normally leads to a cramp.  When I do get a full-bore calf cramp, I can’t walk right for days, so I want to avoid that. I’m drinking a good amount of water, eating well (I think – people told me to push the bananas), and stretching. Today I noticed that after walking a good 5 minutes between the bike and run, things went ok. Any ideas?  Stretching hints?  Help!  The run is going to suck if my legs aren’t working!  Can it be the lack of hydration while on the bike? Kris

Response:

Everytime I get off the bike (normally doing 10-12 miles) and go right into a run, my calf muscles always start to tighten up like they’re going to cramp.  It’s the same sensation I get sometimes when I’m just starting out the swimming season – which normally leads to a cramp.  When I do get a full-bore calf cramp, I can’t walk right for days, so I want to avoid that.

For me walking helps better than complete rest. Try to walk every 30 minutes or so when you’re awake. Doesn’t have to be much, ten strides may be enough. Don’t stretch, because it will only make things worse. Wait until you’re almost completely healed before starting to stretch. I’m 41, and have had night cramps in my calves since I was 13, luckily not every night, only 5-8 nights per year. So you might say I’m a bit of an "experience-expert". I’m drinking a good amount of water, eating well (I think – people told me to push the bananas), and stretching.

And still this might not be enough. It all depends on the details. Today I noticed that after walking a good 5 minutes between the bike and run, things went ok.

It seems you have the same problem I have. I my case it turned out that my calve muscles were too stiff (not enough flexibility). The solution is doing the right stretching, not just any stretching. It may take months to improve your situation. The resting between events helps to relax the calve muscles. The stretching I describe below lasts for about 4.5 minutes, *and* you will need a wall, which is not always available in races. So there seems to be a slight preference to resting at first glance. However, if you’ve done this stretching for several months, you probably can skip it in racing and just do it in training. Any ideas?  Stretching hints?  Help!  The run is going to suck if my legs aren’t working!

What helps for me is this: lean against a wall, face to the wall, and put one leg (knee stretched) after the other; push it firmly on the ground until you feel the calve of that one leg; keep it there for 20-30s–that’s phase 1. Now relax that leg for 2s (phase 2) and start the stretching (phase 3). For this place your (knee still stretched) leg even further away backwards and push your lower leg down, with emphasis on your knee–keep it there for the same period (20-30s). During phase 1 and 3 you should feel the stretching in the upper part of your calve. There should be no pain. Repeat three times for each leg. I hope I’ve described it clear enough for you to understand. I always thought that the stretching I used for running was sufficient for swimming and cycling, but it clearly isn’t. Running uses another part of the calf muscle, it seems, so stretching used in running won’t help to prevent muscle cramps in swimming or cycling.  Can it be the lack of hydration while on the bike?

Could be. Investigate this by drinking more than you’re used to. If now your problems are gone and remain absent, you’ve probably found the solution. You can put extra water bottles in the back of your suit. You can also try using energy drinks (Isostar, Aquarius, etc.) instead of water, or use water in the first 30 min and then continue with energy drinks. Good luck! Rene van Belzen hurray [at] xs4all [dot] nl My Running Log http://www.xs4all.nl/~hurray/myrunninglog/

Response:

Question:

Anyone have Computrainer (3d or PC1) courses for the Dannon Duathlon course in Carlsbad and/or the Mount Rainer Du course in Seattle? thanks, Bryant Howard

Response:

Or a 3d course for Wildflower? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone have Computrainer (3d or PC1) courses for the Dannon Duathlon course in Carlsbad and/or the Mount Rainer Du course in Seattle? thanks, Bryant Howard

Response:

Bryant: If you have the details for the Carlsbad course I can make an accurate 3-D course for you. I use  3-D topographic map software to plot the course along with some spreadsheet calcs to get the course info. I’ve made several courses, and they are very close to the real thing. Email me if you’re interested. Jeff Roberts Inland Inferno Triathlon Club – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anyone have Computrainer (3d or PC1) courses for the Dannon Duathlon course in Carlsbad and/or the Mount Rainer Du course in Seattle? thanks, Bryant Howard

Response:

Art: I have a 3-D course for Wildflower. Email me for details. Jeff Roberts Inland Inferno Triathlon Club – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Or a 3d course for Wildflower?

Response:

Question:

I trained for thr half ironman in Muncie IN. It was right on the mark! It suited for all tiathletes from begginner to pro. tom

Response:

has anybody tried his training software? is it worth it thaks in advance Albert

Response:

Question:

all respect to spencer — a great athlete, great competitor, and a great guy, but the best triathlon cyclist ever is Jurgen Zack.  period. did you ever hear about the thousand dollar match race to the top of mt. palomar?

No. Please, do tell! David

Response:

did you ever hear about the thousand dollar match race to the top of mt. palomar?

nope.  i’m basing this mostly on the handful of crazy ironman splits he’s put up over the years — head and shoulders above every except Hellreigel (who is fast but much less consistent).  the latest being a 4:14:18 at roth — the fastest ever. Jurgen routinely gets outsplit at places like Phuket, but i defy any triathlete EVER to hang with him in an ironman when Jurgen’s on. -mike p.s. – what was this match race?

Response:

You can get full results at: www.cyclingnews.com Mercury and Saturn are there from the US, and they are dominating the event, even with some well-respected Euro outfits in the mix (Big Mat, etc.).  Most of the teams are sending their young, developing riders to this race.  And, it’s a chance for the U.S. based teams to score some UCI points to qualify for entry into bigger Euro races.  It’s also worth noting that there is about $400,000 (yes, four hundred thousand) up for grabs here – making it one of the richest purses in cycling. As for Spencer, from the reports, it looks as though he got kicked off the back late into stage 2 as they went over 2 cat. I climbs.  By no means is he embarrasing himself, as he only lost 9 minutes on the day, while others lost up to 30 minutes and more. Stage 3 was short and flat, and he finished with the pack. Before you buy.

Response:

Doubt it.  I follow cycling very closely, and I’ve never heard of any reference to Gord being related to the tri organiser. — Andre Charlebois BPE in exercise science, MCP, CNA, A+ webmaster for Triathlon New Brunswick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stage 2 results are in….Spencer finshed 119th out of 148, 9:17 down to Stage winner Jamie Drew.  He sits in 82nd place in the GC, 10:22 down to leader Daniele Contrini. I noticed a Canadian sitting in 9th place in the GC by the name of Gordon Fraser.  Any relation to Mitch & Grahme, of Ironman & President’s Choice fame? Before you buy.

Response:

Nope. Gord Fraser lives in Tucson, Arizona and is a training partner of Jimmy Riccitello. Traci R.

Response:

Interesting topic.

i guess i’m surprised that so few people over the years realize this, and if they did there would be more recognition of mark allen’s prowess on the bike.  jurgen is a very good rider, but in germany it was always of primary importance for wolfgang to be first out of the water, and for jurgen to "win the bike."  next in line of importance was to be the first german.  those were always huge goals to these guys.  right up there with winning the race.  so they were always racing within the race, there were finish lines before the final finish line. mark never really thought about anything but the win.  there is a point of view that mark was always the best cyclist at ironman hawaii.  jurgen is very good, and i think emblematic of that was jurgen’s win at zofingen, back when that was an extremely stacked race.  zofingen is much more of a rider’s race than hawaii, or any ironman really, and jurgen won it (and he won it on the bike).  but mark won that race as well, also dropping everyone on the bike (except, i believe, tobin), and also in a stacked field.  like reid today, allen was terrific on the bike, very underrated. slowman

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Nope, but it sounds interesting Dan. Any chance of a story?

spencer’s late father, bill, was an extremely compelling and likeable guy.  we were all his buddies, he is very much missed.  and he was an extreme character.  one thing about spencer and bill, they were really a team, and one endearing quality was that they always used to refer to each other’s efforts in the plural.  "we just didn’t have it today," bill would say, "we rode well, but we just couldn’t hang with simon in the last two k’s of the run.  we’ll get him next time." so one day at yogi’s, which is where bill would regularly imbibe, jurgen and the germans were there (yogi’s is in cardiff, just a stone’s throw from where the germans stay every year in solana beach).  they get to talking, bill is having a few, so are the germans, and i don’t know exactly how it all came to pass, but the upshot is that they get into the discussion you all are having on the NG now. "we’ll lay a thousand bucks that we can outride you to the top of palomar," bill says.  "i’ll take that bet," jurgen replies. so pretty much all of san diego finds out about this, and there are more spectators than usually show at most triathlons.  everybody’s there.  my wife and i can hardly navigate the traffic.  just for these two guys.   palomar is timed from what is called here locally, "the store to the store," which means the store right after the turnoff from valley center road onto hwy 76 (which is where the climbing starts) to the store right after you get to the top of the mountain, technically about 30 meters to the left of the intersection with east grade road (this is where the climbing stops, although the observatory sits a few hundred feet higher, technically).  it is 11.7 mi of climbing, and starts right at 1000′ above sea level, plus or minus a hundred, and ends at about 5200′, or perhaps 5300′.  it is about 9% for the first two miles, then is anywhere from 6% to 7%, and then you hit the 4000′ elevation sign and you’re back up to 9% again until the top.  so the overall average is 7%.  but it dips once at 4 miles for a slight descent and some flat, for about a half mile, so the real average for all the climbing is probably closer to 7.5%. they rode out to the hill, which is a good long distance to start with. mark allen rode with them, and also climbed, but he wasn’t part of the bet and had no intention of heating it up with them when they turned onto the climb.   they eventually reached the lower store, and then they started up.  jurgen was riding a softride power v set up strictly for road.  spencer was riding a 650c road race bike, road geometry, also strictly a road set-up. the first part of the hill is, as i said, tough.  if you are in any trouble at all, you’ll struggle right from the start.  and it was within the first two miles that spencer shot ahead. it was pretty much over right there.  jurgen rode very well, but spencer was never pushed.  he finished in 58 minutes and change.  it was his first ever trip up the hill.  I believe jurgen was a couple of minutes or so back. NOBODY breaks an hour up palomar.  you’re sort of a god if you do.  i believe hegg has done it.  i’ve heard allen has gone 57 at one point, out of many many climbs up the thing.  i heard a rumor once that kenny souza went 54 minutes, but i recently asked him about it and he said he’d never gotten under an hour.  i also heard that rominger once did it in 49 minutes, but i flat don’t believe it.  i classify that as an urban myth. if you do climb it well, it is almost certainly because you’ve gone up it plenty of times and have it "wired".  but it’s very difficult to wire that hill.  it never gets shorter, you never get your arms around it, no matter how many times you do it.  it’s big and it’s bad.  my first time up i didn’t even get up.  i turned around at 4000′.  it kicks your ass, and as i said, to break an hour on one’s first trip up, without a group in which to ride, that’s just not done. perhaps over 200km jurgen would be the better rider.  one must remember, though, that spencer always trained like an ultra racer, even though he never was, except for the one year, in ‘98.  so who knows who was better? but spencer whupped him on that day, and did it on a very fast ride up. and jurgen, to his credit, right in front of the store at the top, laid out, into bill smith’s hands, ten c-notes. slowman

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re: the now historical Spencer/Jurgen Palomar Mountain bet….. As an eyeball witness and just to keep the story totally accurate in every detail for triathlon history, the discussion and the bet actually took place at The Coyote bar in Carlsbad, CA., another one of Bill Smith’s (and mine) frequent watering holes. It was a true bar room bet l,,. ..a classic Bill Smith production. That guy was  amazing, a good book could be written of his life and times,  A  friend that I really miss. JJ

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Tour of Langkawi, Malaysia 1 Floyd Landis (USA) Mercury Cycling Team                  12.20.88 (44.7 km/h) 2 Frank McCormack (USA) Saturn Cycling Team                    7.45 3 Daniele Contrini (Ita) Liquigas Pata                        10.68 4 Nathan O’Neill (Aus) Panaria Gaerne                         13.11 5 Chris Wherry (USA) Saturn Cycling Team                      14.39 6 Trent Klasna (USA) Saturn Cycling Team                      17.95 7 Mark Walters (Can) Canada                                   19.62 8 Gordon Fraser (Can) Mercury Cycling Team                    20.90 9 Lennie Kristensen (Den) Denmark                             21.51 10 Tom Leaper (Aus) Panaria Gaerne                            27.46 53 Spencer Smith (GBr) Linda McCartney                      1.09.94 http://www.cyclingnews.com LW — Curloo Bicycles web:          http://www.curloo.com                   http://www.deewal.com associate:  http://www.elitebicycles.com

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Great first effort by Spencer Smith in his first stage of his first Pro Road race since leaving the sport of triathlon. This was a time-trial/prologue I am to understand and there was about 150 entries. Interesting to note that Smith finished in the top 1/3 of the field. It’s still very early in the season and many pro-roadies use these "races" as purely training. Still, facinating to see arguably the top cyclist from the sport of trithlon finish in the upper middle of the pack in a time trial(his specialty one would assume coming straight from triathlon) in a race filled with, in the grand scheme of things, mostly B-level pros. I wish Smith the best and will be following his progress this year with interest. Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tour of Langkawi, Malaysia 1 Floyd Landis (USA) Mercury Cycling Team                  12.20.88 (44.7 km/h) 2 Frank McCormack (USA) Saturn Cycling Team                    7.45 3 Daniele Contrini (Ita) Liquigas Pata                        10.68 4 Nathan O’Neill (Aus) Panaria Gaerne                         13.11 5 Chris Wherry (USA) Saturn Cycling Team                      14.39 6 Trent Klasna (USA) Saturn Cycling Team                      17.95 7 Mark Walters (Can) Canada                                   19.62 8 Gordon Fraser (Can) Mercury Cycling Team                    20.90 9 Lennie Kristensen (Den) Denmark                             21.51 10 Tom Leaper (Aus) Panaria Gaerne                            27.46 53 Spencer Smith (GBr) Linda McCartney                      1.09.94 http://www.cyclingnews.com LW — Curloo Bicycles web:          http://www.curloo.com                   http://www.deewal.com associate:  http://www.elitebicycles.com

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Great first effort by Spencer Smith in his first stage of his first Pro Road race since leaving the sport of triathlon. This was a time-trial/prologue I am to understand and there was about 150 entries. Interesting to note that Smith finished in the top 1/3 of the field.

Also interesting to note that the winner of this race was Floyd Landis, former hotshot mountain biker. I remember being in races with him and watching him lap half the field on big, 6 or 8 mile laps. Sorry, but I’m an ex-mtb racer and couldn’t resist… Wes  

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But this was a sprint …  a 9k !  The bike may have been his ‘tri’ strength, but this distance was not. — Mark

<snippag – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  …Still, facinating to see arguably the top cyclist from the sport of trithlon  finish in the upper middle of the pack in a time trial(his specialty one would  assume coming straight from triathlon) in a race filled with, in the grand  scheme of things, mostly B-level pros.

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. Still, facinating to see arguably the top cyclist from the sport of trithlon finish in the upper middle of the pack in a time trial(his specialty one would assume coming straight from triathlon) in a race filled with, in the grand scheme of things, mostly B-level pros.

all respect to spencer — a great athlete, great competitor, and a great guy, but the best triathlon cyclist ever is Jurgen Zack.  period. -mike

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all respect to spencer — a great athlete, great competitor, and a great guy, but the best triathlon cyclist ever is Jurgen Zack.  period.

did you ever hear about the thousand dollar match race to the top of mt. palomar? slowman

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Stage 2 results are in….Spencer finshed 119th out of 148, 9:17 down to Stage winner Jamie Drew.  He sits in 82nd place in the GC, 10:22 down to leader Daniele Contrini. I noticed a Canadian sitting in 9th place in the GC by the name of Gordon Fraser.  Any relation to Mitch & Grahme, of Ironman & President’s Choice fame? Before you buy.

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53 Spencer Smith (GBr) Linda McCartney                      1.09.94

The Linda McCartney team was also in Adelaide, Australia for the Tour Down Under (ranked UCI 2.3) (see http://www.tourdownunder.com.au ), held 18-23 of January 2000.  Spencer didn’t get a ride but he was apparently training with the team during their few weeks here.  I didn’t realize Spencer had swapped sports until he was standing right next to me (I was next to the team car). I had a quick chat with him, he seemed surprised that he was recognised at all! (he wasn’t wearing team gear).  When I asked him why he changed sports he said that he’s "completely had enough of triathlon".   He looks a lot ‘leaner’ now too. Cheers Gemma

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but the best triathlon cyclist ever is Jurgen Zack.  period.

??????? if you had of prefaced that with"the best Ironman cyclist ever" I would agree, but as far as being the best ever, period, I don’t agree, period. Mike Plumb

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What’s the sense in being the best "triathlon-cyclist" if you stuff it all up for the run. I am sure Luc and Peter could ride harder if they didn’t care about trying to still be able to run the marathon and win the race. The best "cyclist" on the day is ultimately the overall winner because he was able to hold it together the longest. Lloyd — Curloo Bicycles web:          http://www.curloo.com                   http://www.deewal.com associate:  http://www.elitebicycles.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . Still, facinating to see arguably the top cyclist from the sport of trithlon finish in the upper middle of the pack in a time trial(his specialty one would assume coming straight from triathlon) in a race filled with, in the grand scheme of things, mostly B-level pros. all respect to spencer — a great athlete, great competitor, and a great guy, but the best triathlon cyclist ever is Jurgen Zack.  period. -mike

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guy, but the best triathlon cyclist ever is Jurgen Zack.  period.

uhhh nope Lance Armstrong would have to be the best triathlete  John Hansen  Sarasota Fl.

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all respect to spencer — a great athlete, great competitor, and a great guy, but the best triathlon cyclist ever is Jurgen Zack.  period.

I would have to side with Lance on this one.  An old school choice might go with John Howard. Dave

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What’s the sense in being the best "triathlon-cyclist" if you stuff it all up for the run. I am sure Luc and Peter could ride harder if they didn’t care about trying to still be able to run the marathon and win the race. The best "cyclist" on the day is ultimately the overall winner because he was able to hold it together the longest. Lloyd

Lloyd, Interesting topic. I had this very conversation with Peter Reid at Ironman after Ironman canada in 1997. Pete had been on the sidelines watching. On the day a very good runner, Colin Dignum, blitzed the run course at IMC in 2:36 – for a final time of 9:15. Colin is a decent cyclist and an OK runner, but his goal on that day was to record the fastest marathon run split ever in an Ironman and at the time I believe that it was. It was particularly impressive because the IMC run course is not super fast.Anyway, Colin had worked the bike, but not gone all out. Afterwards, Pete and I were talking about this, that at his level it was more or less the same. You have to work the bike but because these races almost invariably come down to the run, need to be able to "cruise" the bike at a level that will still allow you to run well off the bike. To be consistantly successful at the Ironman distance you have to find that cruise level that works for you. Obviously Peter Reid has become a master of this over the last three years as no other man has shown the consistancy he has. He’s able to ride fast with out it killing him and then get off the bike and put the race away on the run. The game out on the Queen K at IMC becomes one of cat and mouse, but ultimately it’s going to be the person who’s legs/body has been least affected by the 112 miles of cycling and who can then start laying down the 6:00 min miles right from the get go on the run, right to the finish line. Steve Fleck  

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I noticed a Canadian sitting in 9th place in the GC by the name of Gordon Fraser.  Any relation to Mitch & Grahme, of Ironman & President’s Choice fame?

To the best of my knowledge, no, there is no relation. Steve Fleck

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did you ever hear about the thousand dollar match race to the top of mt. palomar? slowman

Nope, but it sounds interesting Dan. Any chance of a story? Andy A Before you buy.

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I would go with Mike Pigg as one of the best.  The boy could deffinitely hammer anyone into submission.   Jay

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I’ve heard about it.  But Dan, don’t you think the outcome would have been different if they had ridden draft free 105 miles before they got to the base of Mount Palomar?  I do. Regarding Lance, he is definitely a strong cyclist NOW, but I don’t think his bike splits as a Triathlete matched the modern performances of Smith, Pigg, Zack, or Helreigel.  Armstrong is no longer a Triathlete so his form now can’t be counted. all respect to spencer — a great athlete, great competitor, and a great guy, but the best triathlon cyclist ever is Jurgen Zack.  period. did you ever hear about the thousand dollar match race to the top of mt. palomar? slowman

Before you buy.

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Question:

: I agree with RunnerBean. I sense that Oleg has his own rule book and : intepretations. I sense that Oleg has never been a race director before, at : least not at international level events. Your senses apart, let me ask you – did you actually watch what happened or you based your opinion based on "rules" only? So you think that someone who got water 2 meters outside of the tables should automatically get DQ’d? Cause it’s the "rules"? If you watched the marathon you may have noticed how narrow the marathon corridors have been at times, with leading pack being more than 10 women for the first 15-18 miles. If I were you guys, I would complain about that, the marathon organization was clearly far from perfect.Narrow streets, motorcycle getting in the way, waterboys standing in the middle of the street creating havoc. But no, let’s get little japanese guy for trying not to interfere with the pack. He’s the bad guy according to the "rules". What "unfair advantage" are we talking about? Oleg

: :

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: : I think later tthey said that the guy had a pass and he was actually a : member : of japanese team or something like that – but made some comment about : him giving water outside of some zone or something like that. : In any case, I don’t think it’s an issue that is serious enough to : warrant : medal re-distribution. : : :We had a runner who won in a local marathon years ago who was almost : disqualified :for :taking water from unofficial help. :It was deemed to be unfair assistance. : :Steve : :http://www.wolds-veteran-rc.freeserve.co.uk : :Club based in Grimsby, N.E.Lincs, England. : : —  Oleg

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Why not? Doesn’t this fall clearly under "outside assistance?"  What : : if *every* runner had their own personal water attendant at every : : station? Chaos. The rule is intended to prevent exactly what was : : shown. If IAAF ignores it, they’re opening the door to a serious : : problem down the road. : : Mike Tennent : : "IronPenguin" : : Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 : : Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:?? Hmm… didn’t post the first time. I think Mike that’s exactly what they have in WC, Olympics etc. – every runner has their own personal water attendant (a member of the team, coach, etc.) handling their water at the water stations. The rules are – it’s got to be the official "waterboy" with pass and everything, plus the waterboy can only hand out drinks inside the designated water-station areas. As far as I understand, the commentators first made a comment about the japanese guy not being an official "waterboy", but then someone else said that he was a member of the japanese team and had an official pass and everything. Then the commentators said – still, he’s passing the water outside of the waterstation, and he knows it’s against the rules. But I think it was only a few meters down from water station, plus I am sure he just missed his opportunity at the water station (those

women are sure fast), so he ran after her. I don’t think this violation is that serious to warrant anything. It’s still better than what other "waterboys" did – just stood in the middle of the road and were handing out water to their athletes, but also creating a

confusion since some of the other athletes had to literally stop to avoid collision with those guys. —  Oleg

The incident I saw was when the Kenyan runner, who’s based in Japan and has a Japanese coach, got her water it looked as if she got trapped outside by someone cutting in and he had to run after her to give the water bottle a few meters down the road.  I’m not sure if that was the same incident but the commentators did refer to it at the time. phil.

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If you’ll pardon my use of the vernacular… SCREW INTENTION!     I really don’t think it matters whether or not the little waterslave intended to aid his athlete outside of the zone.  It is still against the rules, and should therefore incur repercussions.  I wonder what a cop would say/do if someone said "But officer, I only went 30 in the 50 mph zone.  I thought I could make up the time I lost by going 85 in the 25!" To me it’s the same idea. -Andrew

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I agree with RunnerBean. I sense that Oleg has his own rule book and intepretations. I sense that Oleg has never been a race director before, at least not at international level events. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think later tthey said that the guy had a pass and he was actually a member of japanese team or something like that – but made some comment about him giving water outside of some zone or something like that. In any case, I don’t think it’s an issue that is serious enough to warrant medal re-distribution. We had a runner who won in a local marathon years ago who was almost disqualified for taking water from unofficial help. It was deemed to be unfair assistance. Steve http://www.wolds-veteran-rc.freeserve.co.uk Club based in Grimsby, N.E.Lincs, England.

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If you’ll pardon my use of the vernacular…

Your pardoned SCREW INTENTION!

I will second this intention.:) Did you e-mail the IAAF,  and has there  been anything in the paper about it?

Question:

(snip) my back sagged like a tired horse. And my thighs hit my bottom rib clearly

FWIW, Rick, my thighs also hit tend to my ribs when in the aero position on my TT bike, or for that matter even when I’m really low in the drops of my road bike. When going hard, I find that I tend to position myself in the saddle so that I barely make contact. This isn’t really a matter of comfort, or trying to avoid losing power due to thumping myself in the ribs – rather, that hip/torso angle seems to my "sweet spot" for power generation (e.g., when climbing in the saddle and hands on top of the bars, I tend to slide back in the saddle to create the same angle). I credit this to have spent sufficient time training in that position (research has shown that the muscular torque-joint angle relationship is shifted toward a more acute hip-torso angle in cyclists and speedskaters vs. e.g., runners). Andrew Coggan

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Didn’t Dolly Parton have those bottom ribs removed?  (QR doesn’t suggest this kind of adjustment) Frank "I can say it because I have the same problem" Wallace

Actually Raquel Welch.

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: Even though Mike The QR Guy left before I had a chance to get him to : fit me, I spent some time with the fit bikes and the instruction sheet : after the crowds had dissipated, enlisting the aid of Stacy Hills. I : followed the rules precisely. When I was done, my thighs banged into : my chest, and my knees hit my elbows. My upper arms were absolutely And I have pictures of Rick measuring and fitting himself to prove it! Mike "Glad I got a scanner for Xmas" Kelly

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Didn’t Dolly Parton have those bottom ribs removed?  (QR doesn’t suggest this kind of adjustment)

If I’m unwilling to shave my legs just to look like a triathlete, then this seems a bit far. Rick "We haven’t seen a leg-shaving thread in a while" Denney

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: And I have pictures of Rick measuring and fitting himself to prove it! Give the guy a break Mike….he’ll STAY single if you post those. Jason, who found the whole scene rather amusing.

At least I was holding the level myself. I found it, ah, rather embarassing to tell the fittees, "Okay, hold this (long, narrow) level, um, *this* way so I can see the bubble," knowing how it looked from a distance. Mike, published pictures of same will cause flame resistance tests on your plastic bike. Rick "I have the torch that can do it, too" Denney

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In article Not me; my back sagged like a tired horse. And my thighs hit my bottom rib clearly (I hear you sniggering–it was bone and not any of that other stuff that was causing the problem; I have witnesses). Rick "Wishing I was shaped more like Andy Coggan" Denney

Didn’t Dolly Parton have those bottom ribs removed?  (QR doesn’t suggest this kind of adjustment) Frank "I can say it because I have the same problem" Wallace

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To make a clarifying point, you do have a slight arch in your back in both the QR formula position and the position that you use on your Habanero. It’s not pronounced, just a natural arch.  I admit that I usually snicker when you start talking about how you have a deep chest.  I must apologize, because it is true.  Even with a slightly arched back, your thighs were hitting your ribs.

See? SEE? It isn’t the fat. It isn’t. Absolutely not; no way. I even bit my tongue when Denney told the listeners of his tech talk that I’m a dolt for liking the way my Cannondales ride.  It was either keep my mouth shut, or find another ride home.

Well, that wasn’t exactly what I said, and if that’s what you heard, then I suppose we need to check the reception of that tuner. I was, however, injecting some humor into a very technical discussion (there were engineers in the audience), and you were the only target near to hand (besides myself, which I did use as often as possible) that I knew would not hit me, given that you were depending on me for a ride home and all. Those other guys looked big and mean. You just looked big. Aside from the fact that I was talking about how frame builders respond to material characteristics, and Cannondale’s response is a good one. As long as you like riding incredibly stiff bikes, which, as it happens, I do. Rick "I like my Cannondale touring bike" Denney

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s.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even though Mike The QR Guy left before I had a chance to get him to fit me, I spent some time with the fit bikes and the instruction sheet after the crowds had dissipated, enlisting the aid of Stacy Hills. I followed the rules precisely. When I was done, my thighs banged into my chest, and my knees hit my elbows. My upper arms were absolutely vertical. So the cockpit estimation was a tad short, and the aerobars were too low. An advantage to the Road Show is that the fit bikes are equipped with Ergostems, so I started fiddling. I adjusted the height until I got the lowest position that allowed my knees to fit under my chest, and the fore/aft position forward enough so that my upper arms were the 5-15 degrees from vertical that QR (and I) recommends. I carefully measured the result, with measurements from the floor to ensure consistent measurement techniques. I compared those measurements to the Habanero, and, sure enough, it was almost the same. I did slide my saddle on the Habanero a centimeter farther forward, which did help. The saddle and the bars were two or three cm higher than the test bike, meaning that the BB is a bit higher. The test bike was a 57 cm Kilo, and the Habbie is nominally a 58. The QR’s stem was about where their standard upward-sloping stem would be with all the spacers under the stem, and the stem on the Habbie is a horizontal road stem all the way in. The top tube on the QR is three cm shorter, and had a two-cm longer stem. The extra centimeter was in the different saddle positions, which I corrected. After having fit so many people all day without seeing any of the problems I experienced, I was having serious doubts about my own assertions on these pages in the last few weeks. So I was actually surprised to discover that the rules just didn’t work for me. Most people have a natural arch to their backs, even after I asked them to relax completely. Not me; my back sagged like a tired horse. And my thighs hit my bottom rib clearly (I hear you sniggering–it was bone and not any of that other stuff that was causing the problem; I have witnesses).

Yes, I witnessed this…it wasn’t pretty!  Just kidding, Rick. To make a clarifying point, you do have a slight arch in your back in both the QR formula position and the position that you use on your Habanero. It’s not pronounced, just a natural arch.  I admit that I usually snicker when you start talking about how you have a deep chest.  I must apologize, because it is true.  Even with a slightly arched back, your thighs were hitting your ribs. Dan, fear not.  I did work at the road show, but I sold shoes, shoes, shoes, lots of shoes.  I didn’t talk to any customer about bikes.  Not QRs, not Cannondales, not Merlins, not Cervelos, not Softrides not… I even bit my tongue when Denney told the listeners of his tech talk that I’m a dolt for liking the way my Cannondales ride.  It was either keep my mouth shut, or find another ride home. Stacy Hills Reston, VA

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Looking at a rider in a text book fit also doesn’t mean anything unless they are then tested on some sort of ergometer, i.e. computrainer, velodyne etc. to evaluate their watts output. Heartrate must also be taken into to effect as this will determine the body’s best "fit" on the bike. Technically speaking, the only "real" way in my opinion to be fitted in by using both a heart monitor, watt meter and rider input.

I’m sorry, but as an exercise physiologist as well as a competitive cyclist for 25 years, I have to take exception to your statements. Heart rate is only an indirect measure of energy expenditure/VO2, and is really too variable for fine-tuning one’s position for optimal performance. Furthermore, it is both theoretically as well as realistically possible that a HIGHER heart rate will correspond to better performance (e.g., we all pedal at rpm much higher than that which would result in the lowest HR, because this minimizes the stress on the exercising muscles even though it increases the stress on the circulatory system). What really matters, of course, is power output, so the notion of using an ergometer, SRM, etc., is appealing. However, the problem is that it may take some time to accomodate to a new position, such that sustainable power may be reduced initially but come back up and be the same or higher after weeks, months, or perhaps years of training. I’m afraid that determining the optimal aero position is still mostly a matter of empiricism, and while additional data (e.g., aerodynamic drag from wind tunnel testing, physiological data) are certainly helpful as a guide, we haven’t yet reached the point where it can be reduced to a science, or to a magical formula. (Note: This is the same opinion I voiced to Dan Rishworth (sp?) and Gerard Vroomen over dinner a couple of years ago when they asked what I thought about trying to set up a physiologically-guided fitting system for use on a sales floor.) Andrew Coggan

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I had the pleasure of working at one of the QR Road Shows this last weekend (the one at Bonzai Sports). Although I was there primarily to make a presentation on frame materials, I spent some time fitting people to QR fit bikes. I was extremely careful to exactly follow the QR guidelines, because people came there to hear what QR has to say about fit, not what Rick Denney has to say about it. Here’s my observations. Most of the people I fit were within a centimeter of perfect, right out of the box. The saddle height was often a bit low (1-3 cm), and this was a problem mostly for experienced cyclists. I started people at the highest setting for the handlebar (QR suggests a 3 cm range), and most had pretty flat backs with plenty of clearance between their thighs and chests. They all had room to move to the bottom of the range, which would yield a more Coggan-like fit. The QR stem arrangement provided all that adjustment space. Even though Mike The QR Guy left before I had a chance to get him to fit me, I spent some time with the fit bikes and the instruction sheet after the crowds had dissipated, enlisting the aid of Stacy Hills. I followed the rules precisely. When I was done, my thighs banged into my chest, and my knees hit my elbows. My upper arms were absolutely vertical. So the cockpit estimation was a tad short, and the aerobars were too low. An advantage to the Road Show is that the fit bikes are equipped with Ergostems, so I started fiddling. I adjusted the height until I got the lowest position that allowed my knees to fit under my chest, and the fore/aft position forward enough so that my upper arms were the 5-15 degrees from vertical that QR (and I) recommends. I carefully measured the result, with measurements from the floor to ensure consistent measurement techniques. I compared those measurements to the Habanero, and, sure enough, it was almost the same. I did slide my saddle on the Habanero a centimeter farther forward, which did help. The saddle and the bars were two or three cm higher than the test bike, meaning that the BB is a bit higher. The test bike was a 57 cm Kilo, and the Habbie is nominally a 58. The QR’s stem was about where their standard upward-sloping stem would be with all the spacers under the stem, and the stem on the Habbie is a horizontal road stem all the way in. The top tube on the QR is three cm shorter, and had a two-cm longer stem. The extra centimeter was in the different saddle positions, which I corrected. After having fit so many people all day without seeing any of the problems I experienced, I was having serious doubts about my own assertions on these pages in the last few weeks. So I was actually surprised to discover that the rules just didn’t work for me. Most people have a natural arch to their backs, even after I asked them to relax completely. Not me; my back sagged like a tired horse. And my thighs hit my bottom rib clearly (I hear you sniggering–it was bone and not any of that other stuff that was causing the problem; I have witnesses). Rick "Wishing I was shaped more like Andy Coggan" Denney

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had the pleasure of working at one of the QR Road Shows this last weekend (the one at Bonzai Sports). Although I was there primarily to make a presentation on frame materials, I spent some time fitting people to QR fit bikes. I was extremely careful to exactly follow the QR guidelines, because people came there to hear what QR has to say about fit, not what Rick Denney has to say about it. Here’s my observations. Most of the people I fit were within a centimeter of perfect, right out of the box. The saddle height was often a bit low (1-3 cm), and this was a problem mostly for experienced cyclists. I started people at the highest setting for the handlebar (QR suggests a 3 cm range), and most had pretty flat backs with plenty of clearance between their thighs and chests. They all had room to move to the bottom of the range, which would yield a more Coggan-like fit. The QR stem arrangement provided all that adjustment space. Even though Mike The QR Guy left before I had a chance to get him to fit me, I spent some time with the fit bikes and the instruction sheet after the crowds had dissipated, enlisting the aid of Stacy Hills. I followed the rules precisely. When I was done, my thighs banged into my chest, and my knees hit my elbows. My upper arms were absolutely vertical. So the cockpit estimation was a tad short, and the aerobars were too low. An advantage to the Road Show is that the fit bikes are equipped with Ergostems, so I started fiddling. I adjusted the height until I got the lowest position that allowed my knees to fit under my chest, and the fore/aft position forward enough so that my upper arms were the 5-15 degrees from vertical that QR (and I) recommends. I carefully measured the result, with measurements from the floor to ensure consistent measurement techniques. I compared those measurements to the Habanero, and, sure enough, it was almost the same. I did slide my saddle on the Habanero a centimeter farther forward, which did help. The saddle and the bars were two or three cm higher than the test bike, meaning that the BB is a bit higher. The test bike was a 57 cm Kilo, and the Habbie is nominally a 58. The QR’s stem was about where their standard upward-sloping stem would be with all the spacers under the stem, and the stem on the Habbie is a horizontal road stem all the way in. The top tube on the QR is three cm shorter, and had a two-cm longer stem. The extra centimeter was in the different saddle positions, which I corrected. After having fit so many people all day without seeing any of the problems I experienced, I was having serious doubts about my own assertions on these pages in the last few weeks. So I was actually surprised to discover that the rules just didn’t work for me. Most people have a natural arch to their backs, even after I asked them to relax completely. Not me; my back sagged like a tired horse. And my thighs hit my bottom rib clearly (I hear you sniggering–it was bone and not any of that other stuff that was causing the problem; I have witnesses). Rick "Wishing I was shaped more like Andy Coggan" Denney

Here’s some other thoughts and a pt of view. I agree, most people DONT fit into the quote formula of textbook fits. This is not to say it is a bad starting pt but not all of us will follow the exact fitting. Looking at a rider in a text book fit also doesn’t mean anything unless they are then tested on some sort of ergometer, i.e. computrainer, velodyne etc. to evaluate their watts output. Heartrate must also be taken into to effect as this will determine the body’s best "fit" on the bike. Technically speaking, the only "real" way in my opinion to be fitted in by using both a heart monitor, watt meter and rider input. No formulas will ever create the perfect fit. I personally tend to run my fits higher and longer the Dan but it’s my opinion only and not a fact on how to do it. I prefer my top tubes to be a bit longer then the QR’s especially on longer torso riders. Will as longer stem suffice, sometimes, but not always. I’m also not crazy about real long top tubes either although they do work for longer torso riders. Suffice it to say, we all have our opinions but all in all, if you are comfortable on your ride, that should say enough. Steve — Steve’s Multisport – http://www.stevesmultisport.com/

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Question:

Anyone here know of any running groups in Hamilton, Ontario? Thanks! Jamie —

Response:

Hi Jamie, there are several groups in Hamilton: 1. The Harriers. They run as a group three times per week (wed: 6pm?, Sat:8am, and Sun: 9am) from the side entrance of the Hamilton YMCA.  Membership is $15/yr, but its ok to show a couple of times and run with them before joining.   The Harriers are mostly recreational runners with a few serious individuals. Most of the runners tend to be their 30s and 40s. Distances range from 5k to marathon. The Runners Edge at 811 King West (522-3073) organizes most of the races in the area and they can provide contact names for the Hamilton Harriers and the Hamilton Olympic Club. 2. Burlington Harriers. They tend to be more serious about their running.  Contact the Hamilton YMCA for more information. 2. The Hamilton Olympic Club. Focus on competitive racing in the shorter distances: 400m, 800m, 1500m, 5k and 10k.  Mostly highschool age runners with a few people in their 20s.  I don’t know the membership cost, maybe in $50 range. 3. McMaster xc club. They are now into their indoor track season.  I believe they accept runners from the community.  The coach is Peter Self.  Contact the phys. ed. department at McMaster (525-9140) to get a tel. number. 4. McMaster Triathlon club. They have coaching and accept members from the community.  Cost is around $200 per year.  Lots of cross-training.  They tend to be fairly serious about training.  Again, contact McMaster for more infor. Good luck Chris

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Question:

Hello All, Can anybody out there help me to find a triathlon club in Amsterdam?! Hope that You guys can help me soon, Rob Feuer PS: Sorry for the duplicate message

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Hello All, Can anybody out there help me to find a triathlon club in Amsterdam?! Hope that You guys can help me soon, Rob Feuer PS: Sorry for the duplicate message

I am moving to Leiden in October and I want to continue with my new found love, I think there might be a tri club at my work but I am not sure, so I would also be interested in any clubs and events (inc du’s) in the benelux area. 3 stages of a tri – why am I in this freezing lake with 50 others –     – what am I doing going up this big hill again! – When am I going to finish? Chris. Network engineer to the European Space Agency

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