Question:

Well, I think neither you nor me will see this happening (I mean litterally). There are a number of reasons why the observed results from the used murine model are not transferable to humans. Additionally there are numerous problems associated with "scale-up" of gene therapeutic approaches from animal models to humans in general. And as the "Gelsinger" case has shown, there are a lot more inherent dangers that we now can even think of. I doubt that anybody would put his life at risk; compared to only his health with conventional drug (ab)use. I might exclude the sport mentioned by the article…..

            People are putting their lives at risk now taking performance enhancing drugs or drugs they THINK will enhance performance.  I do not see that being a deterrent across the board.  Each athlete draws his/her own line.  Athletes (and people as well) always think that if it happens 70% of the time, they will be in the 30% to whom it does not happen. Although we can start to envision the kind of genetic engineering referred to in this article, we are far from getting there.

            I think you are correct.  We still are far from knowing what happens if we change one part to another and I am thinking several genes will need to be altered to get the desired effect.  Of course science sometimes makes huge leaps. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Trust me, we will be stuck with conventional drugs and drug-testing for quiet a long time to come. Only the methods of conventional drug (ab)use will become more and more sophisticated. trInIc FIRST, the good news. This morning, ‘Wild Card’ is overjoyed to announce the end is nigh for performance-enhancing drugs in sport. Yes, believe it or not, soon you will be able to peruse the sports pages during your coffee break secure in the knowledge that your spirits won’t be deflated by yet another drugs story. Horrid, tiresome words like nandrolone, clenbuterol, anabolic steroids, EPO and pseudoephedrine shall be utterly redundant. You shall no longer require a degree in pharmacology to properly understand the goings-on in international sport. Yes, it is true. The day is fast approaching when every elite athlete in the world including cyclists, sprinters and even weight-lifters will happily provide blood and urine samples for analysis and the results of each test will be without blemish. More…from Unison.ie at: http://www.unison.ie/sportsdesk/stories.php3?ca=207&si=605779 Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

Response:

we will be stuck with conventional drugs and drug-testing for quiet a long time to come.

Well, thank God for that.

Response:

You can look at performance enhancing substances in a few different ways. The short term economic benefit trades off a life time of potential system failure against possible fame and rewards. Success rates in the gossip mills of training athletes and gyms misreport the potential benefits – you hear much more about successes than about failures. But my preferred way to look at performance enhancement is to use an analogy of a car. If the car is in need of a tune, there are many adjustments which will move the system closer to optimal, AND they are fairly easy to achieve. However, IF the car is already in tune, nearly everything you can do to make it go faster will either wear it out, or affect the state of tune adversely. If you know the science very well, you might get lucky and get a lift without paying for it. But there is only a few ways to raise performance, and thousands of ways for each of those to go wrong!!! When the system (body or car) is already optimally adjusted, and you try to get extra , you’re leveraging on the system being able to go beyond normal optimality. Then the "Free Lunch" theorem comes into play. TANSTAAFL… A second issue is that athlete training is an intricate mental as well as a physical process. Replying on a physical (biochemical/genetic) fix really would take all that fun out of it… …even if it worked… Tom. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I think neither you nor me will see this happening (I mean litterally). There are a number of reasons why the observed results from the used murine model are not transferable to humans. Additionally there are numerous problems associated with "scale-up" of gene therapeutic approaches from animal models to humans in general. And as the "Gelsinger" case has shown, there are a lot more inherent dangers that we now can even think of. I doubt that anybody would put his life at risk; compared to only his health with conventional drug (ab)use. I might exclude the sport mentioned by the article….. Although we can start to envision the kind of genetic engineering referred to in this article, we are far from getting there. Trust me, we will be stuck with conventional drugs and drug-testing for quiet a long time to come. Only the methods of conventional drug (ab)use will become more and more sophisticated. trInIc FIRST, the good news. This morning, ‘Wild Card’ is overjoyed to announce the end is nigh for performance-enhancing drugs in sport. Yes, believe it or not, soon you will be able to peruse the sports pages during your coffee break secure in the knowledge that your spirits won’t be deflated by yet another drugs story. Horrid, tiresome words like nandrolone, clenbuterol, anabolic steroids, EPO and pseudoephedrine shall be utterly redundant. You shall no longer require a degree in pharmacology to properly understand the goings-on in international sport. Yes, it is true. The day is fast approaching when every elite athlete in the world including cyclists, sprinters and even weight-lifters will happily provide blood and urine samples for analysis and the results of each test will be without blemish. More…from Unison.ie at: http://www.unison.ie/sportsdesk/stories.php3?ca=207&si=605779 Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

Response:

FIRST, the good news. This morning, ‘Wild Card’ is overjoyed to announce the end is nigh for performance-enhancing drugs in sport. Yes, believe it or not, soon you will be able to peruse the sports pages during your coffee break secure in the knowledge that your spirits won’t be deflated by yet another drugs story. Horrid, tiresome words like nandrolone, clenbuterol, anabolic steroids, EPO and pseudoephedrine shall be utterly redundant. You shall no longer require a degree in pharmacology to properly understand the goings-on in international sport. Yes, it is true. The day is fast approaching when every elite athlete in the world including cyclists, sprinters and even weight-lifters will happily provide blood and urine samples for analysis and the results of each test will be without blemish. More…from Unison.ie at: http://www.unison.ie/sportsdesk/stories.php3?ca=207&si=605779 Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

Response:

Well, I think neither you nor me will see this happening (I mean litterally). There are a number of reasons why the observed results from the used murine model are not transferable to humans. Additionally there are numerous problems associated with "scale-up" of gene therapeutic approaches from animal models to humans in general. And as the "Gelsinger" case has shown, there are a lot more inherent dangers that we now can even think of. I doubt that anybody would put his life at risk; compared to only his health with conventional drug (ab)use. I might exclude the sport mentioned by the article….. Although we can start to envision the kind of genetic engineering referred to in this article, we are far from getting there. Trust me, we will be stuck with conventional drugs and drug-testing for quiet a long time to come. Only the methods of conventional drug (ab)use will become more and more sophisticated. trInIc

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FIRST, the good news. This morning, ‘Wild Card’ is overjoyed to announce the end is nigh for performance-enhancing drugs in sport. Yes, believe it or not, soon you will be able to peruse the sports pages during your coffee break secure in the knowledge that your spirits won’t be deflated by yet another drugs story. Horrid, tiresome words like nandrolone, clenbuterol, anabolic steroids, EPO and pseudoephedrine shall be utterly redundant. You shall no longer require a degree in pharmacology to properly understand the goings-on in international sport. Yes, it is true. The day is fast approaching when every elite athlete in the world including cyclists, sprinters and even weight-lifters will happily provide blood and urine samples for analysis and the results of each test will be without blemish. More…from Unison.ie at: http://www.unison.ie/sportsdesk/stories.php3?ca=207&si=605779 Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

Response:

Question:

Hi Chazzer. Please read my reply to Oliver as to why I was angered at the fact that there was no medals. I was not thinking of myself, as you immediately assumed. Furthermore, as far as my personal time goes, not once in my post did I suggest, say, or indicate in any other way that I felt it was bad. Lastly, next time you decide to post my full name on the NG, make sure you drop the "c", as there is none. Good luck on your upcoming 5k. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David!… So BITTER!… You run a 17.33 and complain about not getting a medal… Have newsgroup aliens captured the real David Hirsch and replaced him with a replica?!??!?!  ;-) I’ve got enough medals/mugs/crap… Frankly, I’d rather they skip that stuff and knock a buck or two off my entry fee… And keep the t-shirt while you’re at it as my closet runeth over… Noting the time in my logbook is all the accomplishment I need… -Chazzer I did the run leg of a tri relay today. It was a sprint distance. There were a LOT of people there. The first relay cyclist to tag  up with his runner appeared a full 3 minutes before my cyclist came in. Once my cyclist came in, I tried to catch up, but could not. We lost by 7 seconds. I ran a 17:33, but I might as well have walked. The people putting on the triathlon decided to be really cheap and only give awards to first place people. We got nothing. If any people are reading this that organize races, let me give you a tip. Medals are really cheap to get made, and make people feel like they accomplished something. Thanks for reading. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

Response:

David!… So BITTER!… You run a 17.33 and complain about not getting a medal… Have newsgroup aliens captured the real David Hirsch and replaced him with a replica?!??!?!  ;-) I’ve got enough medals/mugs/crap… Frankly, I’d rather they skip that stuff and knock a buck or two off my entry fee… And keep the t-shirt while you’re at it as my closet runeth over… Noting the time in my logbook is all the accomplishment I need… -Chazzer

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did the run leg of a tri relay today. It was a sprint distance. There were a LOT of people there. The first relay cyclist to tag  up with his runner appeared a full 3 minutes before my cyclist came in. Once my cyclist came in, I tried to catch up, but could not. We lost by 7 seconds. I ran a 17:33, but I might as well have walked. The people putting on the triathlon decided to be really cheap and only give awards to first place people. We got nothing. If any people are reading this that organize races, let me give you a tip. Medals are really cheap to get made, and make people feel like they accomplished something. Thanks for reading. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

Response:

If any people are reading this that organize races, let me give you a tip. Medals are really cheap to get made, and make people feel like they accomplished something.

First good job on your run.  It looks like my next 5k will be next weekend. I wonder what will happen now that I have done 2 20 mile runs. Now, back to you.  Did you take your camera?  To me 39 pictures are worth 1000 medalions.  ;-) Roger

Response:

I agree with you Dave, a medal would have been nice for your friends – or just a ‘certificate’ printed from the organisers PC perhaps. Was it an expensive event to enter? I have this crazy idea to get my wife to swim a little more (she swims for fitness, around 1-1.5k 3 times a week), get my mate to finally buy the bike he talks about and enter us in some team tri’s. The odds of us finishing in the medals however, are slim indeed. (unlike me, my wife and my mate – ha ha) So far, in three races I have got one t-shirt, one water bottle and some beer. I think I get something for my 10k coming up on Sunday and I get all sorts of stuff for my 1/2 in a fortnight (although that’s a big event – 47,000 runners/walkers/people in costume etc). charlie — To reply please remove the ‘antijunk’

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Oliver – it’s not that I am ‘obsessed" with the medal, I was thinking of my cyclist and swimmer friends, who (because of the nature of their sports) don’t race all the time and have a bunch of medals like anyone who runs. Many running races give you a medal just for finishing, for instance. These two guys worked very hard and have nothing to show for it. The next time they race will be the next time they "happen" to get asked to be a team member in a tri, which won’t happen too often. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html – Be pleased that you had a decent run and were part of such a successful team! What would you have done with the medal anyway? If you’re really so obsessed with a medal, you can probably find out in advance which races award them and which don’t, and avoid the latter! Also, be pleased with your 2nd (?) place in the race. You’d be lucky to make the top 20 in any of the road races we have over here. And by the way, good time for your 5k. Well done! Oliver. I did the run leg of a tri relay today. It was a sprint distance. There were a LOT of people there. The first relay cyclist to tag  up with his runner appeared a full 3 minutes before my cyclist came in. Once my cyclist came in, I tried to catch up, but could not. We lost by 7 seconds. I ran a 17:33, but I might as well have walked. The people putting on the triathlon decided to be really cheap and only give awards to first place people. We got nothing. If any people are reading this that organize races, let me give you a tip. Medals are really cheap to get made, and make people feel like they accomplished something. Thanks for reading. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

Response:

I did the run leg of a tri relay today. It was a sprint distance. There were a LOT of people there. The first relay cyclist to tag  up with his runner appeared a full 3 minutes before my cyclist came in.

Still, a really good time for the run, David. Way to go. Layne

Response:

Thanks, Oliver – it’s not that I am ‘obsessed" with the medal, I was thinking of my cyclist and swimmer friends, who (because of the nature of their sports) don’t race all the time and have a bunch of medals like anyone who runs. Many running races give you a medal just for finishing, for instance. These two guys worked very hard and have nothing to show for it. The next time they race will be the next time they "happen" to get asked to be a team member in a tri, which won’t happen too often. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Be pleased that you had a decent run and were part of such a successful team! What would you have done with the medal anyway? If you’re really so obsessed with a medal, you can probably find out in advance which races award them and which don’t, and avoid the latter! Also, be pleased with your 2nd (?) place in the race. You’d be lucky to make the top 20 in any of the road races we have over here. And by the way, good time for your 5k. Well done! Oliver. I did the run leg of a tri relay today. It was a sprint distance. There were a LOT of people there. The first relay cyclist to tag  up with his runner appeared a full 3 minutes before my cyclist came in. Once my cyclist came in, I tried to catch up, but could not. We lost by 7 seconds. I ran a 17:33, but I might as well have walked. The people putting on the triathlon decided to be really cheap and only give awards to first place people. We got nothing. If any people are reading this that organize races, let me give you a tip. Medals are really cheap to get made, and make people feel like they accomplished something. Thanks for reading. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

Response:

I did the run leg of a tri relay today. It was a sprint distance. There were a LOT of people there. The first relay cyclist to tag  up with his runner appeared a full 3 minutes before my cyclist came in. Once my cyclist came in, I tried to catch up, but could not. We lost by 7 seconds. I ran a 17:33, but I might as well have walked. The people putting on the triathlon decided to be really cheap and only give awards to first place people. We got nothing. If any people are reading this that organize races, let me give you a tip. Medals are really cheap to get made, and make people feel like they accomplished something. Thanks for reading. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

Response:

Be pleased that you had a decent run and were part of such a successful team! What would you have done with the medal anyway? If you’re really so obsessed with a medal, you can probably find out in advance which races award them and which don’t, and avoid the latter! Also, be pleased with your 2nd (?) place in the race. You’d be lucky to make the top 20 in any of the road races we have over here. And by the way, good time for your 5k. Well done! Oliver.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did the run leg of a tri relay today. It was a sprint distance. There were a LOT of people there. The first relay cyclist to tag  up with his runner appeared a full 3 minutes before my cyclist came in. Once my cyclist came in, I tried to catch up, but could not. We lost by 7 seconds. I ran a 17:33, but I might as well have walked. The people putting on the triathlon decided to be really cheap and only give awards to first place people. We got nothing. If any people are reading this that organize races, let me give you a tip. Medals are really cheap to get made, and make people feel like they accomplished something. Thanks for reading. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

Response:

Question:

What is the average split for a 1/4 mile swim leg of a triathlon??  John Hansen  Sarasota  Fl.

Response:

What is the average split for a 1/4 mile swim leg of a triathlon?? John Hansen Sarasota  Fl.

The leaders will get out at around 5 minutes. The average time for all would probably fall around 7 minutes.                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   IMNZ, IMC ‘99 IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

Response:

I don’t know where some people are racing, but Iron Pete’s predictions look more like some of the age-group placers times to me.  I’d say about 8 to 9 minutes for an average…  Of course here in the cornfields of Iowa people like to use 500M and 1/4 mi interchangeably, which most definitely is not the same distance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the average split for a 1/4 mile swim leg of a triathlon??  John Hansen  Sarasota  Fl.

Response:

What is the average split for a 1/4 mile swim leg of a triathlon?? John Hansen Sarasota  Fl.

440 yards = 1/4 mile fast triathlete swimmers <1:10 per 100 yards = 19:15 for 1.5k 440 yds = 5:08 mid pack swimmers 1:45 per 100 yards = 28:52 for 1.5k 440 yds = 7:42 back pack swimmers 2:20 per 100 yards = 38:26 for 1.5k 440 yds = 10:15 iron pete was pretty much dead on in his approximations. Mark Linenberg                                        o                       __o            </_                       <           __/    /o_           (()) (())           /

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the average split for a 1/4 mile swim leg of a triathlon?? John Hansen Sarasota  Fl. 440 yards = 1/4 mile fast triathlete swimmers <1:10 per 100 yards = 19:15 for 1.5k 440 yds = 5:08 mid pack swimmers 1:45 per 100 yards = 28:52 for 1.5k 440 yds = 7:42 back pack swimmers 2:20 per 100 yards = 38:26 for 1.5k 440 yds = 10:15 iron pete was pretty much dead on in his approximations. Mark Linenberg

lol…I just guessed. From my experience, it sounded about right. Iron Pete "now if I can only guess right on the Powerball lottery" Priolo

Response:

I agree with Pete.   I any event I have been in the average would be 6.5 to 7.5 min for a 1/4 mile swim.   I come out at about 7+ min and I am usually in the slower half of the pack.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What is the average split for a 1/4 mile swim leg of a triathlon?? John Hansen Sarasota  Fl.

Response:

Question:

Does anyone out there have information on Jim Ward?  Last I heard he had a stroke during the 1997 Holidays.  Has he recovered?  Did he do IMH last year? I’ve never met the man, but feel as if I know him after reading and hearing about him through the years. Thanks

Response:

Does anyone out there have information on Jim Ward?  Last I heard he had a stroke during the 1997 Holidays.  Has he recovered?  Did he do IMH last year? I’ve never met the man, but feel as if I know him after reading and hearing about him through the years. Thanks

He did St.Anthony’s Triathlon in April 1998.  His time for the Olympic Distance Race was 3:40:32. Mark Linenberg                                        o                       __o            </_                       <           __/    /o_           (()) (())           /

Response:

Jim is doing very well last I heard. He was entered in IMH ‘98 but had to withdraw due to a severe infection post dental surgery. Last I heard he is training hard for the ‘99 season. Beleive me wew haven’t heard the last of JIm. In the condition he’s in he will proably outlast all of us. sure he’d be happy to hear from you. Cheers, Bernie Sher – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone out there have information on Jim Ward?  Last I heard he had a stroke during the 1997 Holidays.  Has he recovered?  Did he do IMH last year? I’ve never met the man, but feel as if I know him after reading and hearing about him through the years. Thanks

Response:

I saw him at a planning meeting for Maderia Beach (local race) a couple of weeks ago. He looks great, is mentally sharper than most anyone half his age and talking about how well his training is going. Still considering another trip to Hawaii. He exemplifies what being 82 should be like. Wendy in St. Pete Beach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim is doing very well last I heard. He was entered in IMH ‘98 but had to withdraw due to a severe infection post dental surgery. Last I heard he is training hard for the ‘99 season. Beleive me wew haven’t heard the last of JIm. In the condition he’s in he will proably outlast all of us. sure he’d be happy to hear from you. Cheers, Bernie Sher Does anyone out there have information on Jim Ward?  Last I heard he had a stroke during the 1997 Holidays.  Has he recovered?  Did he do IMH last year? I’ve never met the man, but feel as if I know him after reading and hearing about him through the years. Thanks

Response:

Jim is nothing less than superman ! He outlasts the youngsters in an evening outing, is enduringly riotous and kindhearted, and the most excellent Male Role Model I have ever known,(if I were a male needing a model)

Response:

He just took his age group (80-84) in St. Anthony’s again!  Talking about a hard age group, just getting in it to compete takes nothing less than superman!  Stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim is nothing less than superman ! He outlasts the youngsters in an evening outing, is enduringly riotous and kindhearted, and the most excellent Male Role Model I have ever known,(if I were a male needing a model)

Response:

He is awesome…after having spent some time with him in Australia, I realized what a sharp man he is.  .  He stayed out to the wee mornings and was doing handstands and arm wrestling with some of the younger members of Team USA.  May we all live as long and as healthy as he.

Response:

Question:

Hi folks, after several months in the web with our own homepage for the german triathlon scene it’s now time to communicate in english I think there may be a communication breakdown here. The link for the English speaking section doesn’t seem to work ‘The requested URL /neep.htm was not found on this server.’ Rob. — Rob Docherty

now it should work, if not write a email to what do expect if you look to german tri-web site thanks

Response:

Hi folks, after several months in the web with our own homepage for the german triathlon scene it’s now time to communicate in english

I think there may be a communication breakdown here. The link for the English speaking section doesn’t seem to work ‘The requested URL /neep.htm was not found on this server.’ Rob. — Rob Docherty

Response:

Hi folks, after several months in the web with our own homepage for the german triathlon scene it’s now time to communicate in english so, please visit our homepage and tell us what kind of subjects is valueable for you. therefore we can optimize our service. perhaps there is club overseas, that looks for closer relations to a european club ! thanks for your circumstance! http://www.nonplusultra-esslingen.wwc.de or write directly to:

Response:

Question:

Thank you for posting it in the past, and I hope you continue to post it in the future.  On RST, or any news group, infomration is the coin of the realm, and the long distance swim calendar is as good as gold in my book. The exchange of ideas and opinions is a lot of fun, but the hard information that I get from RST is just as important to me. Thanks again, and please take this as a vote for more calendars. The Carmel Group "Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win."  R.A.H.

Response:

I’ve received an e-mail request that I no longer post the Long Distance Swim Calendar to rec.sport.triathlon. (I post it about ten times/year in 4-5 messages totalling 3500 lines.) Would r.s.t. readers be content with me posting it only to rec.sport.swimming with a note to r.s.t. each time it’s posted?  Please e-mail/post your opinions! Thanks. Lynn

I find it useful, and have a pretty robust newsreader, so either option works for me. Thanks, Augie Calabrese

Response:

Please keep posting the schedule. I’m including some of the swims in my summer calendar. I’m not swimming but will be support for others.  Plus I love seeing what kind of events are out there. Thanks for the schedule! Larry

Response:

I’ve received an e-mail request that I no longer post the Long Distance Swim Calendar to rec.sport.triathlon. (I post it about ten times/year in 4-5 messages totalling 3500 lines.) Would r.s.t. readers be content with me posting it only to rec.sport.swimming with a note to r.s.t. each time it’s posted?  Please e-mail/post your opinions! Thanks. Lynn Lynn-

I appreciate the posting of the calendar to r.s.t. and hope that you continue. —                 — Scott Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.                 – Albert Einstein

Response:

Lynn, Keep posting the long distance calendar! -Rolf — Call me IronMac …                         … I tri …                                          … I prefer Macintosh! IMC ‘94 – 14:06:47   IMC ‘95 – 11:58:35    IMC ‘97 – 10:45:00

Response:

I’ve received an e-mail request that I no longer post the Long Distance Swim Calendar to rec.sport.triathlon. (I post it about ten times/year in 4-5 messages totalling 3500 lines.) Would r.s.t. readers be content with me posting it only to rec.sport.swimming with a note to r.s.t. each time it’s posted?  Please e-mail/post your opinions! Thanks. Lynn

Response:

(I post it about ten times/year in 4-5 messages totalling

3500 lines.)<< I bet this is the problem(?).  Maybe make it a friendlier format.   Advising r.s.t. where to find it is a good idea. Some other options: Put it in a text file, on an FTP site.  Advise of the location.  Anyone who wants it can download it and format it in their word processer. Start a web page and update it there.  Spread the news so tri-oriented web pages will add a link to your page. Rework the format so that it is easier to navigate.  That is make it shorter.  I haven’t seen it, but I have to wonder how much "fluff" (unnecessary information) is in there. Hope this helps! Robert

Response:

I’ve received an e-mail request that I no longer post the Long Distance Swim Calendar to rec.sport.triathlon. (I post it about ten times/year in 4-5 messages totalling 3500 lines.) Would r.s.t. readers be content with me posting it only to rec.sport.swimming with a note to r.s.t. each time it’s posted?  Please e-mail/post your opinions! Thanks. Lynn

Lynn- I think you should continue to post it to r.s.t. Open water swimming is the weakest part of most triathletes’ backgrounds, and posting your calendar might encourage some of them to enter a few races! Chip Zempel

Response:

INHO—keep posting on rst–I like it!  

Response:

I’ve received an e-mail request that I no longer post the Long Distance Swim Calendar to rec.sport.triathlon. (I post it about ten times/year in 4-5 messages totalling 3500 lines.) Would r.s.t. readers be content with me posting it only to rec.sport.swimming with a note to r.s.t. each time it’s posted?  Please e-mail/post your opinions!

thanks to your posts of the Open Water Swim Calendar, I did the Columbia River Cross Channel Swim last year.  It was a bit silly, as we were one of the few that actually knew how to swim distance on board, we literally passed hundreds of people, even though we had only been swimming a year or so. I like getting the calendar, but do to its size it is unweildly to use.  I would suggest an HTML searchable format, so that I could look up OW swims in my area when I want to check it out.  I always like to plan my vacations around events and the calendar makes it even more interesting. I don’t mind the post to RST in the least, but notification that an HTML page changed is probably the most appropriate for the ‘net these days. Rob — No Spam is good Spam. Stop bulk email now! Ironman Canada 1998 Rob Blomquist aka TriDog Seattle, WA http://www.accessone.com/~robb

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I’ve received an e-mail request that I no longer post the Long Distance Swim Calendar to rec.sport.triathlon. (I post it about ten times/year in 4-5 messages totalling 3500 lines.)

Lynn, Although I, personally,just pass over your Swim Calandar, I do not find it inappropriate for this newsgroup. I do, however, find it very inappropriate that someone would speak for the group and ask you not to post. I feel that you are doing a service to those triathletes who would want this information. I think it is relevent to triathlon training and can’t see any reason for objection. If you do choose not to post the calandar here, I think that a single posting pointing to where the info can be found would be appreciated by many. Regards, Andrew Peabody Coconut Grove — Internet Communications Of America

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I’ve received an e-mail request that I no longer post the Long Distance Swim Calendar to rec.sport.triathlon. (I post it about ten times/year in 4-5 messages totalling 3500 lines.)

Lynn,      I have appreciated the long distance swim calendar postings on RST since this is the newsgroup I check the most. I guess a posting to rec.sports.swimming,  along with a notice of said posting to r.s.t., would be fine also if, for some strange reason, your calendar is pissing off alot of rst folks.  Anyway, thanks for your efforts to this point…… John R.

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Question:

Additionally, Allyn’s Fairmont race will be featured in this month’s Triathlon Times (magazine sent to all annual USA Triathlon members-20,000). The race is not cancelled and will be stellar. USA Triathlon

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Contrary to some rumors that are circulating, Fairmount Park Classic                    IS NOT CANCELLED!!!! We believe we know who started the rumor and it always amazes me how people in such a fun and unique sport, can’t work together! Allyn Cutts, the race director for this race devotes a lot of energy to his races and they don’t need to be spoiled by acts of malice. As a friend of Allyn and a sponsor of this race, I am inviting everyone to enjoy a great weekend and a DRAFT FREE race on August 3rd and 4th. For more race info, please contact Allyn Cutts or myself. Also, come by our bike inspection booth and meet our own Ken Glah! Good luck to all who enter and remember the key to a good triathlon is all the hard work the VOLUNTEERS do. Please take time to thank everyone. Thanks, steve Steve’s Multisport 1-610-275-4010

It surprised me to hear people were spreading the rumor that it was cancelled cuz this race is a mainstay in Philly!  Come on out to Philadelphia – the course is held in beautiful Fairmount Park (Nation’s largest city park) and goes by the famous Art Museum.  This will be the first year I miss it since 1991 since I’ll be in Atlanta!  Kinda bummed cuz it’s just about in my backyard and I could’ve held some kinda of pre- or post-race RST social gathering.  Maybe next year! I always enjoy Allyn Cutt’s races. Also, for those of you who’ve never been to Philly – I don’t know why everyone seems to give it a bum rap.  Sure, it has its problems, but so does every other major city.  I was in Atlanta in March and talking to some guy on the train (which I must admit was much cleaner and cheaper than our trains – SEPTA sucks) and he said he had never been to Philly and would never go there.  He was actually scared of Philly even though he had lived in New York!  I love it here – lots to do, great night life, historical sites, terrific parks, etc.  Guess the city should hire me for PR!  Also, great mayor who is really working to clean up the city’s image (thought as long as I was at it I’d put a plug in for Ed Rendell!) Nuf said!  Come check it out and decide for yourself! -hug  

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Contrary to some rumors that are circulating, Fairmount Park Classic                         IS NOT CANCELLED!!!! We believe we know who started the rumor and it always amazes me how people in such a fun and unique sport, can’t work together! Allyn Cutts, the race director for this race devotes a lot of energy to his races and they don’t need to be spoiled by acts of malice. As a friend of Allyn and a sponsor of this race, I am inviting everyone to enjoy a great weekend and a DRAFT FREE race on August 3rd and 4th. For more race info, please contact Allyn Cutts or myself. Also, come by our bike inspection booth and meet our own Ken Glah! Good luck to all who enter and remember the key to a good triathlon is all the hard work the VOLUNTEERS do. Please take time to thank everyone. Thanks, steve Steve’s Multisport 1-610-275-4010

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Question:

Linda, we don’t have anything scheduled in town for the weekend of June 3.  There is a 5K in Daytona Beach on June 3, you can get info. at 904-238-4728.  Hope you enjoy your visit.  Jacksonville is a great town to run and live in.

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Hi, I’ll be staying in Jacksonville June 3-6 and would like to enter a local race – anything from 5K to 10 miles.  Does anyone know of any? Thanks, Linda

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Hi, I’ll be staying in Jacksonville June 3-6 and would like to enter a local race – anything from 5K to 10 miles.  Does anyone know of any? Thanks, Linda

Linda: I don’t have any listed for that time period right now, but check the Webrunner occasionally. If I find one I’ll post it there. — WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Club & Race Listings 200+ listings. Advertise your race. Club Home Pages. http://www.catalog.com/webrun/running/running.html

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According to my Florida Track Club newsletter, there are no footraces going on that weekend.  There is a triathlon: S-1/2m, B-16m, R-4m.  For info on that call (904) 273-7707.

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Question:

I think I asked this once before, but never got an answer that convinced me.  This whole discussion about having drafting only in pro races leads me to ask it again – Why are there pros vs. age-groupers? Shouldn’t the first over the line be the winner regardless of whether this is how they make thier living or not?  If an amateur who holds down another job is able to beat somebody who trains full time, shouldn’t they be recognized for it?

Well, I’d suggest that an amateur who holds down another job an beats up on pros take out a pro card, as I did a few years ago when I was doing serious Du’ing. Think of the distinction more as a shield for the amateur.  I suspect that there are a lot of 25-35 year old males who would lose interest in big events if they knew that their 2:02 wasn’t going to get them age group recognition, but would rather just put them way down on the overall finish list after a cadre of pros. Is it a legit distinction?  I dunno… Coming from running, I’ve always sort of believed that if you’re not in an category which is clearly penalized by your age (juniors, 35 and over) that you should be battling with everybody.   But if you want to forfeit your chance at winning money to get a plaque and some recognition, that’s fair.   You just shouldn’t expect to have it both ways…ie, get the money if you break into the top pros, but get the recognition of seeing your name in the age group results if you’re the 16th 25-30 year old in a race but the other 15 are pros (all but 3 or 5 of whom, of course, who WON’T show up in any newspaper agate, magazine articles, etc.) Phil Phil

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This doesn’t ring fully true.  The road races that attract pros have seeded positions at the front of the pack for pros.  While some races may allow both pros and amateurs to be eligible for prize money, no one in a non-seeded position can contend because it takes them several minutes just to shuffle up to the starting line with the masses.  Major marathons and races like Bay to Breakers may not be ‘the majority’ of races, but I don’t see any pros showing up at my Saturday morning 10k and creating issues about amateur-pro distinctions.

Vernon, I don’t know which races you run in, but I’ve done some of the local "saturday morning 10k" type races with the likes of Patti Sue Plumer and some others.  We live in an area where you can run into Olympic athletes at the local running trails. I agree that in the bigger races there is a split.  However, that split is by TIME and not by status.  So, anybody that has proven themself as being in contention with a history of fast times will be able to run up front.  If you don’t have a time that meets the cutoff then maybe you shouldn’t be up there anyway.  I’ve been in races where the 7:30 milers are up front with the 5:00 milers. This is just plain dangerous; they get trampled.  The seeding is done just to avert this situation, not as a pro / age-grouper separation. John K.

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Here’s a suggestion… For the "elite amateurs" who can hang tough against the pros, why not have a "pro-am" division? -Troy J.

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Why not, it seems like the sport of Triathlon is one of the few sports where there is a World Championship (and other races) where age-groupers are recognized apart from the pro’s.  In the majority of running road races you do not see any distinction between age-group and pro, so why should triathlon?

This doesn’t ring fully true.  The road races that attract pros have seeded positions at the front of the pack for pros.  While some races may allow both pros and amateurs to be eligible for prize money, no one in a non-seeded position can contend because it takes them several minutes just to shuffle up to the starting line with the masses.  Major marathons and races like Bay to Breakers may not be ‘the majority’ of races, but I don’t see any pros showing up at my Saturday morning 10k and creating issues about amateur-pro distinctions. I’m glad that triathlon has wave starts that separate pros from amateurs and younger amateurs from older amateurs.  If I’m competing against others besides myself, I get to see my main competition in one place at the start of the race.  Plus, if the race is large, wave starts mean that my times reflect my preparation and execution, not the fact that an early morning traffic jam made me arrive late and get stuck at the back of the pack. Vernon Schabert

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<<Shouldn’t the first over the line be the winner regardless <<of whether this is how they make thier living or not?  If <<an amateur who holds down another job is able to beat <<somebody who trains full time, shouldn’t they be <<recognized for it? Do you want the first guy across the line in your age-group to win your age-group award?   QRman

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This has always confused me too.  Coming from masters swimming where everyone abides by the same rules and is judged by the same clock, I could never understand why, in triathlons, the fastest athlete doesn’t necessarily win.  I’m sure there is some sound rationale for professionalism, but I can’t guess what it is.

My guess is that many different people involved with the sport (and any sport, for that matter) benefit from having professionals: -The best people in any discipline, athletic or otherwise, always find  a way to get paid for their talent; -Equipment makers get a higher return on their advertising dollar by  sponsoring pros rather than sponsoring whole races; -Race organizers assure higher turnouts from age-groupers by having pros  compete for money; -Spectators get more excited about following the sport when they only  have to keep track of a few stars instead of a horde of talented  amateurs; -Age-groupers (yes, even age-groupers) get higher-quality races, more  media visibility for the sport, and better chances for the sport’s  inclusion in Olympic competition if the sport demonstrates an ability  to support professional athletes. The only theoretical problem I have with separate pro waves in races (trust me, this is not a problem I lose sleep over) is that I will not be able to claim any prizes or money if I have a phenomenal day and beat Mike Pigg in a race.  In a previous thread on this same issue, Pat Brug and others worked on a proposal to change the pro designation to ‘elite,’ which would eliminate this (for most of us) minor problem.  Perhaps Pat could be encouraged to repost a summary of his proposal to keep this thread alive. Vernon Schabert

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Do you want the first guy across the line in your age-group to win your age-group award?   Or do you want the ex-pro who is second across the line getting your age group award?  A slight variation, but adds some confusion. (What determines a pro/elite/age-grouper). John (here we go again.. ) K.

Krump and I had this same discussion awhile back on  an ill-fated "scenic" QRman-created bike tour of the greater San Marcos, CA region. Sometimes this concept is hard for people to understand. So I say again… Age-group racing in the USA Part I IMO: Age-group racing is primarily for fun and fitness, and it’s is the core of the sport– at least it is in the US. Racing within an age division (20-24, 55-59 etc.) makes the race more exciting and adds a competitive element since you have a smaller field of actual competitors to race against. Pretty simple. The ITU boys are always looking for ways to make our sport more "exciting" but they seem to ignore the fact that the sport is evolving and getting more exciting on its own, and this evolution (or revolution?) will continue with or without them. When was the last time anyone raced a good, competitive age-group race and came away saying you were bored? And this good age-group race has no negative effect on the pro race, which is also an exciting race. In fact, a good age-group race along with a good pro race (Orange County, Ironman, Mrs. T’s, St. Anthony’s etc… makes for one fun weekend. There have been a few times when a young age-group athlete (I guess like the DeBooms?) gets an inordinate amount of  media or sponsor/agent attention because he or she was the "best age-grouper" for a few years when in fact that person(s) may only have been a  top-10 pro had they moved up.  (This ain’t a DeBoom flame pleaze!….We know the DeBooms are good athletes and super guys. We’ve already recognized that for 2 years now but isn’t it about time to move along?)   The reason for the above scenario(s) is because the media continues to focus only on the first across the line and not dig a little to find inspiring stories about what really makes age-group racing tick.  It is very easy to write about the overall age-group winner, and they should be written about, but there is more to it than that. If a "former-pro" wants to step down and race for fun and fitness with the age-groups, I say welcome to our jungle– as I have to Emilio DeSoto, Karen Chequer, Liz Bulman, Bill Leach, Jeff Cuddeback, Janet Stamper and Dean Harper. And all of them will tell you that age-group racing in the USA is not an easy ticket to a gold medal. I think it’s great to see "retired" pros stay active in the sport.

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This has always confused me too.  Coming from masters swimming where everyone abides by the same rules and is judged by the same clock, I could never understand why, in triathlons, the fastest athlete doesn’t necessarily win.  I’m sure there is some sound rationale for professionalism, but I can’t guess what it is. Kazez

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This has always confused me too.  Coming from masters swimming where everyone abides by the same rules and is judged by the same clock, I could never understand why, in triathlons, the fastest athlete doesn’t necessarily win.  I’m sure there is some sound rationale for professionalism, but I can’t guess what it is. Kazez

In the US, one must qualify to be a "pro". Basically the qualification is that you must be faster than everyone else. Occassionaly you get a situation like the DeBooms where someone from the age groups will race faster than someone who is getting the money. This, however, is the exception rather than the rule. If you compare times, you will find that 90%+ of the time the slowest pro recieveing money is faster that the fasest age grouper by a significgant margin. Please don’t flame me with the exceptions who are outstanding athletes, I am only speaking of the "rule". Allspots to represent the US in ELITE (Pan Am Games, Olympics, etc..) International competition are open to anyone who is qualified without restriction by category. To qualify, all one has to do is put up times over similar distances that are competitive with the other top times. One does not get to race with the elites just by talking. Hope this helps

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Do you want the first guy across the line in your age-group to win your age-group award?  

Or do you want the ex-pro who is second across the line getting your age group award?  A slight variation, but adds some confusion. (What determines a pro/elite/age-grouper). John (here we go again.. ) K.

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QRman says: Do you want the first guy across the line in your age-group to win your age-group award?

Why not, it seems like the sport of Triathlon is one of the few sports where there is a World Championship (and other races) where age-groupers are recognized apart from the pro’s.  In the majority of running road races you do not see any distinction between age-group and pro, so why should triathlon?  Do you think that the majority of athletes race so they can win some sort of award or do they do it for the challenge and/or enjoyment of competition? Really the only time that age groups make any sense is for masters athletes (40 and over) as age is a real factor in determining performance. I think it is exciting to say I raced against this pro at this race and finsihed in X place, opposed to having done an amateur race and finished 2nd in the 25-29 age group and then watched the pro race where 50 pros all beat me by more that Y minutes. IMHO, Bert Sandie Burnaby, BC, Canada

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I think I asked this once before, but never got an answer that convinced me.  This whole discussion about having drafting only in pro races leads me to ask it again – Why are there pros vs. age-groupers? Shouldn’t the first over the line be the winner regardless of whether this is how they make thier living or not?  If an amateur who holds down another job is able to beat somebody who trains full time, shouldn’t they be recognized for it? There is no distinction (that I have seen) in road racing (running that is).  The fastest guy/gal wins. In cycling, I understand a need for the distinction for safety reasons, but at that level you should probably have the necessary handling skills even if you’re an amateur. Any ideas? Sean.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I asked this once before, but never got an answer that convinced me.  This whole discussion about having drafting only in pro races leads me to ask it again – Why are there pros vs. age-groupers? Shouldn’t the first over the line be the winner regardless of whether this is how they make thier living or not?  If an amateur who holds down another job is able to beat somebody who trains full time, shouldn’t they be recognized for it? There is no distinction (that I have seen) in road racing (running that is).  The fastest guy/gal wins. In cycling, I understand a need for the distinction for safety reasons, but at that level you should probably have the necessary handling skills even if you’re an amateur. Any ideas? Sean.

I totally agree with you Sean. I’m from Europe and over there, this whole thing is handled much more liberally. I am a middle of the packer in olympic distance races but I can proudly say that I have already raced against many Pro’s, in the exact same race. I even once stood right behind a true Pro World Champion of that year, must have been in 1991 with Miles Stewart. May the fittest win, not necessarily the one that has the most time to train because he/she gets paid for doing sports. Romain

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Do you want the first guy across the line in your age-group to win your age-group award?   QRman

I haven’t yet decided whether I’m against or for separate pro ranks.  But in this case, simply remove the ‘overall’ race winners from contention for the ‘age-group’ prizes.  This just means you can only win 1 prize. I don’t think it’s that tough. Sean.

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Question:

: OK rec sport triathlon readers, here is a little fun  in the Sierra’s, : from an article I write for my local paper. Saw the Motorola team training : in this area this week, so they too must know where the best riding is!!! : Enjoy. : Brad At last count there are four FORMER Motorola team riders living in the Sacramento area, not to mention many Motorola jersey owners from the above mentioned rider’s garage sales.  However, the Motorola team has been in Europe since the end of January and their US training camp was in Texas. The ride you mention is an excellent one though. Kevin Metcalfe Davis, CA

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OK rec sport triathlon readers, here is a little fun  in the Sierra’s, from an article I write for my local paper. Saw the Motorola team training in this area this week, so they too must know where the best riding is!!! Enjoy. Brad Kearns Column like I see ‘em  Auburn Sentinel#The Death Ride?The title of this article sounds ominous, but I am actually going to describe and take you through one of the most beautiful and challenging bike rides anywhere in the world, beginning right here in Auburn and proclaimed by this "wrider" (HA HA)  "The Death Ride".My first completion of the Death Ride loop was in June of 1990, when I was just an innocent visitor to the area and still lived in Los Angeles. My wife Tracy and I came to visit her parents, who had recently moved from Southern California to Cool. It was one of six visits over the course of that year, the cumulative effect of which spurred us to make a move of our own out of the concrete jungle of Los Angeles and up to Cool by November of 1990. Of course my bike made the trip with us, and feeling restless one Saturday morning, I grabbed a triple A map out of the drawer and plotted out a bike course to explore the surrounding area. Isn’t it funny how you can read a onedimensional map of an area you have never been to and make crazy assumptions about roads being up or downhill with no factual basis? I know when I see a road on a map heading South, I assume(0*0*0*it is downhill for some reason. Maybe derived from common ?expressions like, "We drove down to LA from Sacramento." Once I headed out on the bike, I soon realized that I was in for more than I and my flat map had bargained for  a total of 12,000 feet of climbing, according to my Avocet Altimeter bike computer at days end. hh#The ride begins heading out of Auburn to Foresthill on Foresthill Road. The highlight is crossing over the towering Foresthill bridge, affording an incredible view of the confluence of the North and Middle Forks of the American River 700 plus feet below. The lowlight is realizing on your first trip up to Foresthill that although the map says the town is 2000 feet higher than Auburn, you have to climb much more than that because of all the ups and downs. There is nothing more discouraging to a cyclist than climbing up a steep hill, only to descend back down before resuming climbing. Multiply that 10 times and you know what the first 20 miles of the Death Ride are like. I know many readers will never even attempt something as daunting as the Death Ride, but take notice next time your aredriving how unaware we are of the terrain when we don’t have to use our own power to negotiate it. Countless times I have taken preview drives over a bike course before a triathlon and thought, "piece of cake, no significant hills on the course". Completing the same course the next day on bicycle is always a rude awakening as my quads muscles vehemently disagree with the statement, "no significant hills".Reaching Foresthill I take the complete with little tables on the patio to sit down and have lunch with a magnificent view of the Sierra’s. Little did I know that this was the last available water stop for the next 3 and a half hours, quite a long time to go without while cycling in June. I had never experienced this phenomenon training in Los Angeles, because even on the most remote rides imaginable civilization is no more than an hour or two apart. Consulting my trusty map I saw the name of a town on the route ahead called "Uncle Tom’s cabin"  no problem, I’ll just stop at their supermarket and refuel. Well, maybe that was possible in the Gold Rush days, but these days there ain’t nothing there but a few old cabins, probably belonging to Uncle Tom. Stay tuned next week as we head into the high Sierra’s and continue on the Death Ride loop….(0*0*0*Last week’s column on the Death Ride left off with a lunch break at the Foresthill Market in Foresthill. From Foresthill, the ride traverses several river canyons and ridges as I make my way South to Stumpy Meadows Reservoir and then down to Georgetown. The bulk of the climbing comes between Foresthill and Stumpy Meadows. After a 12 mile descent from Foresthill to the Oxbow Reservoir on the American River, elevation 1000 feet, you commence that most difficult climb I have ever encountered anywhere in the world, which I call the "Corkscrew Wall". Somehow somebody cut a road right into the canyon wall above Oxbow, which climbs up to Ralston Ridge in the high Sierra. The road climbs 2000 feet in 3 1/2 miles, first cutting across the canyon wall, then spiraling upward like a corkscrew to the ridgeline. Anyone who gets up this alive is a total stud!Of course by this time the water bottle has been reached for numerous times (like a pacifier for all the suffering of the climb) and with dwindling supplies, I grew delirious in the next two plus hours before staggering into Georgetown to raid the MarVal market. Uncle Tom’s Cabin, the highest point in the ride at 5000 feet, is reached at the 65 mile mark. Even though the ride is 100 miles, if you make it this far you are home free, because it is almost all steadily downhill or flat all the way to Georgetown, 24 miles away at 2650 feet elevation, then 16 more miles down to the confluence, passing through Greenwood and Cool.The ride is almost over  97 miles crossing the bridge over the American River. All that is left is a nice little 2.3 mile(0*0*0*climb up to Auburn to finish up  piece of cake in an air conditioned car! Not so on a bicycle. Those last 3 miles have been some of the longest of my life, particularly in the summer when the temperature in the canyon is off the charts! I have taken training buddies accustomed to the flatlands of Sacramento on the Death Ride, and seen them actually near death at the top of the canyon!The feeling of satisfaction is overwhelming upon returning to Auburn. To gaze as far as the eye can see into the high Sierra’s and know that you traveled that far in one day on your own power is quite a powerful sensation. For competitive athletes like myself and my training partners who I have "initiated" on the route in the last few years since my maiden ride, completing the loop is a tremendous confidence builder. Anything offered in the way of hills on a typical triathlon course in an urban setting is scoffed at after completing such an unbelievable ride. If you try this ride, just remember that I warned you  you will suffer big time, but it will be all worth it!

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