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: : : : : : : : Then make sure you eat within an hour or so of eating : : : : : : : : : : Umm…yeah, umm…I’m thinking this type of behavior belongs in the : post : : on : : obesity… : : : : : : : : not at all, the muscles seem to be especially receptive to storing : glycogen : : within a short time after exercise so there is a rationale for this : : suggestion. : : : : : You might want to re-read it: "EAT within an hour or so of EATING" : : That’s the kind of thing I used to do when I was fat… : : : : Oops….although in my triathlon training days (a good 16-20 hours per week) : that was about what I was doing.  Ah, those were the days, eat, exercise, : eat, work, eat, exercise, eat, eat again and still weigh about 135 lbs (at : 5-10) : Same here, though I never weighed quite that low.  But yeah, I remember continual training.  And eating like a cow.  But looking like bean pole with muscles.  I even took to riding my Trek everywhere instead of driving.  So even when I wasn’t training, I was training.  I miss those days.  But a young son, busier life and arthritis in the knees have taken their toll.  I don’t expect to be able to run much longer- I’m wearing out my knees.

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I’ve been reading how many of the more serious runners here like to "carb up" before a particularly taxing event.  Can anyone here explain what exactly that entails, how it’s properly done, and what the benefits are? Also, I’m wondering if there’s something I can be eating during the day that will provide me with a noticeable increase in energy during my little 6-mile runs 4 nights a week.

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I’ve been reading how many of the more serious runners here like to "carb up" before a particularly taxing event.  Can anyone here explain what exactly that entails, how it’s properly done, and what the benefits are? Also, I’m wondering if there’s something I can be eating during the day that will provide me with a noticeable increase in energy during my little 6-mile runs 4 nights a week.

There is carb loading, usually done before a long (say anything over 1 hour in duration) race.  This involves reducing training volume for a few days and increasing carb intake over that time period to optimize muscle glycogen stores. For everyday folks who are exercising, the recommended range of carb intake is 6 to 10 g of carb per kg body weight (~2.5 to 4.5 g per pound).  Where your eating falls on that spectrum depends on training volume/intensity. For something like routine running, I would suggest 7 to 8 g/kg. Eat breakfast, lunch and dinner.  Consider having a bit of a snack a couple of hours before running.  perhaps a sport drink and something with carbs 2 hours pre-run.  Then make sure you eat within an hour or so of eating (although if you are not going to run the next day, this is less important). The benefits of carbs (and muscle/liver glycogen) is that glycogen is the preferred energy source for exercise.  It is more efficient in terms of energy production per liter of oxygen than say fat oxidation.  THis means that you can run at a higher intensity which means more energy is expended. If one is training, running faster gives you a better training stimulus (however, one does need to vary the intensity and duration in a proper training program). If you neglect to take in carbs, over time the muscle glycogen stores will get reduced and that will impact the runs.  So it might not happen the first day or even the second day, but several days it will catch up with you.

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I’ve been reading how many of the more serious runners here like to "carb up" before a particularly taxing event.  Can anyone here explain what exactly that entails, how it’s properly done, and what the benefits are? Also, I’m wondering if there’s something I can be eating during the day that will provide me with a noticeable increase in energy during my little 6-mile runs 4 nights a week.

if i’m starving (haven’t eaten since noon, and will run at 5 or 6), i’ll eat a Mars or Snickers bar around 3pm. if that can’t happen, then i’ll eat half a banana or a slice of wheat bread with a bit of honey on it directly before the run. i can do that and have no stomach troubles at all in the run. i tend to eat larger lunches than dinners these days since i am now running around my (former) dinner hour. so i eat a carb and protein-laden lunch of stew or heavy soup, or a big sandwich. stuff that’ll digest during the afternoon and then fuel a hard or slightly longish run later on. Cam

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Here is a decent and brief description of carb loading and generally how to do it. http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/carbload.htm Keep in mind that unless you are exercising for 1-2 hours or more you don’t really need this. I have also read of others arguing that even on long runs most people stay well way from the aerobic to anaerobic threshold (known as the Lactic Threshold) and therefore do not deplete glycogen quite as fast (i.e. you use more fat for energy). Therefore, carb loading (AKA glycogen loading) is not necessary even for marathoners. Unless you are an elite runner pushing the envelope during the whole race, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. As far as you 6 mile runs, probably the best way to keep energy up is to be well hydrated all day before the run and drink during the run. If you can a sports drink mixed with water is a good choice, a 50/50 mix should be fine. Sleep well at night, and don’t over/or under eat before the run. Basically use your common sense. Oh!, you can drink a Red Bull or similar high caffeine drink just before running (15-20 minutes or so)…the caffeine should be somewhat helpful for shorter runs (i.e. runs less than 1 hour). That’s all I know of that may be helpful. Good luck. Seeeeeeeeee ya, Rick

I’ve been reading how many of the more serious runners here like to "carb up" before a particularly taxing event.  Can anyone here explain what exactly that entails, how it’s properly done, and what the benefits are? Also, I’m wondering if there’s something I can be eating during the day that will provide me with a noticeable increase in energy during my little 6-mile runs 4 nights a week.

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Then make sure you eat within an hour or so of eating

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: Then make sure you eat within an hour or so of eating : : Umm…yeah, umm…I’m thinking this type of behavior belongs in the post on obesity…

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.  Can anyone here explain what exactly that entails, how it’s properly done, and what the benefits are?

Others have given you the technical on carb loading so I will not repeat all of that. Carb loading has other benefits not yet mentioned. The proper way: Gather a bunch of your running friends and agree on a middle of the road Italian restaurant. Gather there in the early evening prior to the race and eat pasta, tell stories, drink lots of water and eat more pasta. Running can be very solitary…Use carb loading as an excuse to have fun! jojo

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On the evenings I plan to run, I generally have a large lunch (usually pasta or bean wrap), a snack about 3pm, and often a small snack (like a few nuts) right before I leave. I have a fairly iron stomach, I can eat a full bowl of Grape-Nuts and start a run 15 minutes later, as long as it’s not a race or a speed workout. I always run better if I have eaten a good lunch. Teresa in AZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been reading how many of the more serious runners here like to "carb up" before a particularly taxing event.  Can anyone here explain what exactly that entails, how it’s properly done, and what the benefits are? Also, I’m wondering if there’s something I can be eating during the day that will provide me with a noticeable increase in energy during my little 6-mile runs 4 nights a week.

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: Then make sure you eat within an hour or so of eating : : Umm…yeah, umm…I’m thinking this type of behavior belongs in the post on obesity…

not at all, the muscles seem to be especially receptive to storing glycogen within a short time after exercise so there is a rationale for this suggestion.

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: : : Then make sure you eat within an hour or so of eating : : : : : : Umm…yeah, umm…I’m thinking this type of behavior belongs in the post : on : obesity… : : : : not at all, the muscles seem to be especially receptive to storing glycogen : within a short time after exercise so there is a rationale for this : suggestion. : : You might want to re-read it: "EAT within an hour or so of EATING" That’s the kind of thing I used to do when I was fat…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : : Then make sure you eat within an hour or so of eating : : : : : : Umm…yeah, umm…I’m thinking this type of behavior belongs in the post : on : obesity… : : : : not at all, the muscles seem to be especially receptive to storing glycogen : within a short time after exercise so there is a rationale for this : suggestion. : : You might want to re-read it: "EAT within an hour or so of EATING" That’s the kind of thing I used to do when I was fat…

Oops….although in my triathlon training days (a good 16-20 hours per week) that was about what I was doing.  Ah, those were the days, eat, exercise, eat, work, eat, exercise, eat, eat again and still weigh about 135 lbs (at 5-10)

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Wow you must have a "hollow leg"  It is a physiological fact that your trunk is more buoyant than your legs, since your lungs are full of air; hence your legs will tend to sink; even if you can compensate they still tend to sink and you expend energy keeping them high in the water.   The whole point of a wetsuit is to promote good body position and a big part of that is to buoy the legs.  You can be very proud of the fact that you already have excellent body position and hence don’t need this added advantage.  For the other 99% of us, we need all the help we can get, so a half leg suit is a poor investment in my opinion.

Or maybe you just made a gross overgeneralization that wasn’t valid. Must be a reservie with that logic.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow you must have a "hollow leg"  It is a physiological fact that your trunk is more buoyant than your legs, since your lungs are full of air; True. hence your legs will tend to sink; even if you can compensate they still tend to sink and you expend energy keeping them high in the water. Nope. the trick behind good body position is good swimming form. When you are swimming freestyle properly your legs will not sink, even though they are less buoyant than your torso. While there is some truth to the fact that you expend energy to keep them up (i.e. keeping your head down in the water, good body rotation, etc.) swimming with good form and thereby keeping your legs up expends less total energy than swimming with bad form and letting them drag lower than your body. So no, you actually SAVE energy by keeping them higher in the water.

Yep, swimming, more than anything else, is technique first.  I can not swim for a couple of years, and still do 100 meters in under 80 seconds, and probably under 70 if I really wanted to push it. Unless the water is cold enough, the wet suit doesn’t help me. Cheers, Walter R. Strapps

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Like Tom said – where did you hear that? Water ski wetsuits are designed to keep you warm above the water and in the water, and to not get a enema/filling up with water from the legs when deep water starting. Who told you they were designed with falls in mind? I didn’t fall so often and so hard that I needed protection from my falls – a few yard sales, sure. But what I needed most out of a water ski wetsuit was warmth. Perhaps, _perhaps_ a barefoot suit might be designed for falls – the extra padding in the chest and seat for example, but not a slalom or trick suit.

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Most ski and surf wetsuits are designed to create drag, to slow you down in a tumble. Precisely the opposite of what you find in a swimming specific suit.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have an old wetsuit that I used to use for waterskiing. Will that work for swimming? What is different about a triathlon wetsuit? Thanks!

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Your legs tend to sink more than any other part of your body, so a suit without full legs (and people are dumb enough to buy tri wetsuits like this) is hardly worth the money if bought for triathlon.

Excuse me, *your* legs may tend to sink more. My body position is already fine thank you, and with either a 2-beat or a 6-beat kick my legs are in the right place. I’ve owned full, sleeveless, and sleeveless/knee-length wetsuits, and my knee-length QR is still my favorite. Unless the water’s below 65. My first race this year it was 53, that called for more insulation for sure. Andrew http://www.andrewduncan.ws

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Most ski and surf wetsuits are designed to create drag, to slow you down in a tumble. Precisely the opposite of what you find in a swimming specific suit.

Not.  Water ski suits are not designed that way at all. Tom

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Wow you must have a "hollow leg"  It is a physiological fact that your trunk is more buoyant than your legs, since your lungs are full of air; hence your legs will tend to sink; even if you can compensate they still tend to sink and you expend energy keeping them high in the water.   The whole point of a wetsuit is to promote good body position and a big part of that is to buoy the legs.  You can be very proud of the fact that you already have excellent body position and hence don’t need this added advantage.  For the other 99% of us, we need all the help we can get, so a half leg suit is a poor investment in my opinion.  I suppose you probably race on 36 spoke box rims, since you ride so well that aero wheels are not necessary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your legs tend to sink more than any other part of your body, so a suit without full legs (and people are dumb enough to buy tri wetsuits like this) is hardly worth the money if bought for triathlon. Excuse me, *your* legs may tend to sink more. My body position is already fine thank you, and with either a 2-beat or a 6-beat kick my legs are in the right place. I’ve owned full, sleeveless, and sleeveless/knee-length wetsuits, and my knee-length QR is still my favorite. Unless the water’s below 65. My first race this year it was 53, that called for more insulation for sure. Andrew http://www.andrewduncan.ws

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Wow you must have a "hollow leg"  It is a physiological fact that your trunk is more buoyant than your legs, since your lungs are full of air;

True. hence your legs will tend to sink; even if you can compensate they still tend to sink and you expend energy keeping them high in the water.

Nope. the trick behind good body position is good swimming form. When you are swimming freestyle properly your legs will not sink, even though they are less buoyant than your torso. While there is some truth to the fact that you expend energy to keep them up (i.e. keeping your head down in the water, good body rotation, etc.) swimming with good form and thereby keeping your legs up expends less total energy than swimming with bad form and letting them drag lower than your body. So no, you actually SAVE energy by keeping them higher in the water.  The whole point of a wetsuit is to promote good body position and a big part of that is to buoy the legs.

No. The whole purpose of a wetsuit is to provide warmth in cool water. Yes, they are an excellent crutch also, but that is not their intended purpose. You can be very proud of the fact that you already have excellent body position and hence don’t need this added advantage.  For the other 99% of us, we need all the help we can get,

Just be sure you don’t need that help so bad that you avoid races in warm water or wear your wetsuit in 78 degree or warmer water and risk overheating. Improving your swim form is a good idea all around, and will make you a faster swimmer with and without the suit. so a half leg suit is a poor investment in my opinion.

And masters swimming or other forms of swim training are an even better investment than the wetsuit. Happy training! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I suppose you probably race on 36 spoke box rims, since you ride so well that aero wheels are not necessary Your legs tend to sink more than any other part of your body, so a suit without full legs (and people are dumb enough to buy tri wetsuits like this) is hardly worth the money if bought for triathlon. Excuse me, *your* legs may tend to sink more. My body position is already fine thank you, and with either a 2-beat or a 6-beat kick my legs are in the right place. I’ve owned full, sleeveless, and sleeveless/knee-length wetsuits, and my knee-length QR is still my favorite. Unless the water’s below 65. My first race this year it was 53, that called for more insulation for sure. Andrew http://www.andrewduncan.ws

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I have an old wetsuit that I used to use for waterskiing. Will that work for swimming? What is different about a triathlon wetsuit? Thanks!

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If it’s like my ski suit… the padded butt is actually too thick to be a legal tri suit (anything over a few millimetres is considered a floatation aid).  Also, tri suits are designed to also fluid motion in the shoulders. ITU rules… 6.3.    ILLEGAL EQUIPMENT: 6.3.1.    Artificial propulsion devices, i.e., fins, socks, gloves, paddles, or flotation devices. 6.3.2.    Wet-suits with thickness exceeding 5 mm. 6.3.3.    Wet-suit bottoms only. g – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: AT&T Broadband Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon I have an old wetsuit that I used to use for waterskiing. Will that work for swimming? What is different about a triathlon wetsuit? Thanks!

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I have an old wetsuit that I used to use for waterskiing. Will that work for swimming? What is different about a triathlon wetsuit? Thanks!

Don’t do it dude! NOT at all the same thing. Before triathlon I was a nationally ranked slalom skiier. I had bunches of waterskiing wetsuits. They are not at all conducive to swimming! They are great for keeping you warm above the water and in cool water, but they’re horrible for swimming. The closest one I can think of that would have worked was my Bare shorty, because of it’s tight neck – but the others will gather water in them like a big baloon. You’ll hate it. Believe it or not – a form fitting drysuit most closely resembles a swimming wetsuit, except for the swimming suit allows for more arm movement. Go with just your speedo before using a water ski wetsuit. Someone will undoubtedly reply with exactly the opposite advice. It’ll be just as valid. That’s the wonderful thing about advice over the Internet – it’s worth what you paid for it – nothing.

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If it’s like my ski suit… the padded butt is actually too thick to be a legal tri suit (anything over a few millimetres is considered a floatation aid).  Also, tri suits are designed to also fluid motion in the shoulders. ITU rules… 6.3.    ILLEGAL EQUIPMENT: 6.3.1.    Artificial propulsion devices, i.e., fins, socks, gloves, paddles, or flotation devices. 6.3.2.    Wet-suits with thickness exceeding 5 mm. 6.3.3.    Wet-suit bottoms only.

Out of curiousity, anyone know if the ’shark-skin’ suits are legal for triathlon?  I wouldn’t want to have to try to get out of it in T1, but is it legal? Cheers, Walter R. Strapps

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I have an old wetsuit that I used to use for waterskiing. Will that work for swimming? What is different about a triathlon wetsuit? Thanks! Don’t do it dude! NOT at all the same thing. Before triathlon I was a nationally ranked slalom skiier. I had bunches of waterskiing wetsuits. They are not at all conducive to swimming! They are great for keeping you warm above the water and in cool water, but they’re horrible for swimming. The closest one I can think of that would have worked was my Bare shorty, because of it’s tight neck – but the others will gather water in them like a big baloon. You’ll hate it.

However, it’s great for drag training! Cheers, Walter R. Strapps

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I have an old wetsuit that I used to use for waterskiing. Will that work for swimming? What is different about a triathlon wetsuit? Thanks!

  It’ll work just as pathetic as the 7mm farmer John scuba suit bottom that I tried using in my first triathlon. I would have been far better off to have swam in just my speedo. A newbie lesson learned the hard way. Immediately afterwards I purchased a proper tri wet suit. There is no other alternative.

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Absolutely Not.   You cannot swim in a waterskiing wetsuit. Seriously though.  People use wetsuits for 2 reasons.  One to stay warm and the other to swim faster.  This suit will keep you warm, although in my opinion it is unecesary unless the water is less than 65 (and I am a very skinny guy) A tri wetsuit is designed for more freedom of movement and the thickness is often designed to give you maximum floatation in the areas where you need it most for good body position in the water.   Also many non tri wetsuits are only half legged.  Your legs tend to sink more than any other part of your body, so a suit without full legs (and people are dumb enough to buy tri wetsuits like this) is hardly worth the money if bought for triathlon. My expert advice, use it if you want.  Don’t be fooled into thinking you need a wetsuit to do tris.  I raced for 2 and a half years without one and never had a problem.   It is just like race wheels and a fast bike, a luxury for this of us who want to spend the money (Unless you are doing a really cold water swim, i.e Escape from alcatraz)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have an old wetsuit that I used to use for waterskiing. Will that work for swimming? What is different about a triathlon wetsuit? Thanks!

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….  Also finished upright and smiling, which can’t be underestimated. I felt great, and eager to to it again, though maybe not this week Peter

Congratulations! And it sounds like you found the most important part of running! Dot

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[snip] Finish time: 3:39:12 (average pace 5:11/km) I didn’t make my dream time, but did make the realistic goal I’d set. Also finished upright and smiling, which can’t be underestimated. I felt great, and eager to to it again, though maybe not this week

Fantastic result, Peter. Congratulations. Besides, you wouldn’t want to hit your dream time the first time out. That would leave you nothing to shoot for on your next one! Thanks for sharing your experience with us. John London, ON

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Any results online? Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

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Any results online? Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

They should be posted as soon as they’ve been finalized, at the QCM website (www.queencitymarathononline.com) and I think also at www.sportstats.ca/main.html

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Full marathon participants received a medal and will be mailed a 5×7 finish line photo. A large number of volunteers helped with manning the aid stations, directing traffic, providing entertainment along the way, and generally making sure everyone had a great time. I didn’t make my dream time, but did make the realistic goal I’d set. Also finished upright and smiling, which can’t be underestimated. I felt great, and eager to to it again, though maybe not this week

Peter, Great Job, great report, and it looks like you had a lot of fun. I’m glad you mentioned the volunteers also.  That is something I forget about too often. We had quite a few bands on my "first" (correct length) marathon, despite the rain, and it was pretty neat to clap for some of them because they would use their sound system to give you encouragement back. Thanks,         Roger

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21-28     5:12     Starting to slow down 28-35     5:29     Definitely feeling the effects of the wind and fatigue 35-42.2   5:27     Legs are like lead weights for most of this portion Finish time: 3:39:12 (average pace 5:11/km)

Great race.  I recognize the effects of the last 14 km from my own races.   Like carrying dead animals on your legs. In the spring in Edmonton, I would have danced in the streets with 3:39 but alas I faded to a 3:47.  Sounds like Regina did a fine job for the first marathon.  I’ll note that for future marathon attempts. — Lorne Sundby

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Peter, congratulations on making your goal time and enjoying the experience. Thanks for the detailed report–as I count the days until my first marathon (Oct. 28), I’m inspired by reports like yours. Cheers. Chris Smith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snip stuff about the organization of the Queen City Marathon) As I mentioned, this was my first marathon, having run 3 half-marathons before. I’m a 43 year old runner who only took up the sport seriously in March. My first half-marathon was in June, 2000, and my "training" consisted of 20 minute jogs around the neighborhood 3-4 times a week in tennis shoes. I ran the half in those same tennis shoes, and paid dearly for it for about 4 weeks after. Nevertheless, I managed to get through in 1:58, under my time goal of 2 hours. This year I knew better, and started training with a group in March. Having dropped 10 pounds, and logging considerably more mileage I managed a respectable 1:50 at the June, 2001 race. A number of runners from our group discussed the idea of a fall run. Minneapolis was already full, so the idea of running in the inaugural Queen City Marathon took hold. Unfortunately, or so I thought at the time, they did not have a half marathon (having decided to concentrate on the full marathon in their first year to make sure they got it right). Frankly, the idea of running 26.2 miles was a completely intimidating prospect to someone who had never run more than 14 miles. However, I went for it, and don’t regret it for a minute. I trained hard through a hot summer, running 5 days a week, putting in long runs with the group of 14-20 miles every Sunday morning, losing another 10 pounds. My wife soon complained of becoming a "Marathon widow". By the time we started our taper a few weeks ago, we were talking of "just a 14-miler today". I set a goal of 3:40 for the marathon. OK, I admit, I had fantasies that if I grew wings and had a good tailwind behind me I could get in under 3:30. We ran a 10-miler at that pace (4:58/km, or 8:00/mile) a week before the big event, and I felt really good at the end of it. Anyway, it’s highly unlikely anybody much cares about this except me, but here is how it went, broken down into 7 km intervals. km      average pace/km 0-7       4:58     Very cold at the starting line, felt good to be moving 7-14      5:00     Getting into the run, enjoying the scenery 14-21     5:01     Feeling good, concentrating on staying on pace Hooray! Got to the 21.1 km mark in 1:45, a new personal best for the half , and right on pace for a 3:30 finish. I felt pretty good at this point too, keeping a nice steady rhythm. Ah, but things were about to change. The tailwind I was hoping for turned into a headwind, gusting to 40 km/hr on the return part of the trail. That, combined with onsetting fatigue, meant my dream time will have to wait for another race. Here’s how the rest went. 21-28     5:12     Starting to slow down 28-35     5:29     Definitely feeling the effects of the wind and fatigue 35-42.2   5:27     Legs are like lead weights for most of this portion Finish time: 3:39:12 (average pace 5:11/km) I didn’t make my dream time, but did make the realistic goal I’d set. Also finished upright and smiling, which can’t be underestimated. I felt great, and eager to to it again, though maybe not this week Peter

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The first Queen City Marathon was held in Regina, Saskatchewan, on Sunday, September 23. The organizers had a vision to create the premiere running event in Saskatchewan, and to that end put a great deal of effort into the organization of the race. Almost 600 full marathoners took part, including many out-of-towners, and many who were running the marathon for the first time (myself included). In addition, there were relay teams, with anywhere from 2-5 runners.  The course itself is quite flat, and is run mostly along bicycle/foot paths through the extensive park system in the city. It passes a lake and river system, which were beautiful at this time of the year with the fall colours already turning leaves to gold and brown. The race organization was superb, with many things runners look for. There were markers at every kilometer and every mile, and aid stations every 2-3 km with both water and powerade.  Electronic timers were at the 1 mile and 21.1 mile points, and final results were posted together with split times, chip time, and gun time shortly as each group of 20 or so runners finished. The course was certified according to international IAAF/AIMS standards, which means the results can be used as qualifying times for the Boston Marathon. This makes the Queens City Marathon one of a handful of certified Canadian marathons. Full marathon participants received a medal and will be mailed a 5×7 finish line photo. A large number of volunteers helped with manning the aid stations, directing traffic, providing entertainment along the way, and generally making sure everyone had a great time. As I mentioned, this was my first marathon, having run 3 half-marathons before. I’m a 43 year old runner who only took up the sport seriously in March. My first half-marathon was in June, 2000, and my "training" consisted of 20 minute jogs around the neighborhood 3-4 times a week in tennis shoes. I ran the half in those same tennis shoes, and paid dearly for it for about 4 weeks after. Nevertheless, I managed to get through in 1:58, under my time goal of 2 hours. This year I knew better, and started training with a group in March. Having dropped 10 pounds, and logging considerably more mileage I managed a respectable 1:50 at the June, 2001 race. A number of runners from our group discussed the idea of a fall run. Minneapolis was already full, so the idea of running in the inaugural Queen City Marathon took hold. Unfortunately, or so I thought at the time, they did not have a half marathon (having decided to concentrate on the full marathon in their first year to make sure they got it right). Frankly, the idea of running 26.2 miles was a completely intimidating prospect to someone who had never run more than 14 miles. However, I went for it, and don’t regret it for a minute. I trained hard through a hot summer, running 5 days a week, putting in long runs with the group of 14-20 miles every Sunday morning, losing another 10 pounds. My wife soon complained of becoming a "Marathon widow". By the time we started our taper a few weeks ago, we were talking of "just a 14-miler today". I set a goal of 3:40 for the marathon. OK, I admit, I had fantasies that if I grew wings and had a good tailwind behind me I could get in under 3:30. We ran a 10-miler at that pace (4:58/km, or 8:00/mile) a week before the big event, and I felt really good at the end of it. Anyway, it’s highly unlikely anybody much cares about this except me, but here is how it went, broken down into 7 km intervals. km      average pace/km 0-7       4:58     Very cold at the starting line, felt good to be moving 7-14      5:00     Getting into the run, enjoying the scenery 14-21     5:01     Feeling good, concentrating on staying on pace Hooray! Got to the 21.1 km mark in 1:45, a new personal best for the half , and right on pace for a 3:30 finish. I felt pretty good at this point too, keeping a nice steady rhythm. Ah, but things were about to change. The tailwind I was hoping for turned into a headwind, gusting to 40 km/hr on the return part of the trail. That, combined with onsetting fatigue, meant my dream time will have to wait for another race. Here’s how the rest went. 21-28     5:12     Starting to slow down 28-35     5:29     Definitely feeling the effects of the wind and fatigue 35-42.2   5:27     Legs are like lead weights for most of this portion Finish time: 3:39:12 (average pace 5:11/km) I didn’t make my dream time, but did make the realistic goal I’d set. Also finished upright and smiling, which can’t be underestimated. I felt great, and eager to to it again, though maybe not this week Peter

Response:

Question:

i’ve always like hooker’s bike, never been that impressed with the fork. Ever seen the MDT aero fork, made of Reynolds 753 tubing? Very similar to the Hooker, and good enough for Shaun Wallace to decide to use…

we shouldn’t devolve into anecdotes.  if we did, i’d have to point out that the fork i had built for QR was on a bike ridden by a rider who won a couple of time trials in a pretty big race last year.  but since we aren’t using anecdotal evidence, pretend i didn’t say that  ;-) slowman

Response:

Fixed wheels show basically the same drag as rotating wheels. Fewer spokes are better (from a drag perspective), but not because the wheel is rotating.

The only data I’ve seen for fixed vs. rotating were from Kyle, and you’re right, there’s not much difference. Let’s not forget, though, that most wind tunnel testing does not account for the energy cost of keeping the wheels rotating (the "egg beater" effect), which might add 10-20% to the overall drag. If you included that in the measurements then the difference between fixed and rotating would of course be bigger. Andrew Coggan

Response:

Hooker claimed only a ~0.2 lbs drag advantage for their complete narrow "front end". I suspect that the Hooker fork alone is worth that much,

i’ve always like hooker’s bike, never been that impressed with the fork. when you consider that a normal width, 700C aero wheel is already quite low in drag, I wouldn’t make a narrow hub/low spoke count my first criteria in picking a bike/fork/wheel/whathaveyou.

i’ll buy that. and there are other factors to consider, e.g., head tube length i’d argue the opposite. How is this the opposite? My point, which seems to be the same as that which you put forth below, was that rider position comes first, and the bike design follows from that.

ill buy that too. A) you’ve always argued for a higher rider position for triathletes than what the most aggressively positioned cyclists use…in fact, IIRC you once went to the trouble of putting together a whole web page of pictures to support your side of this argument, B) the formula on the QR website sets people up considerably higher than what I believe is optimal from an aero perspective, and C) the QR-sponsored athletes I’ve saw tested in the A&M wind tunnel sat up higher in their aero positions than I (at 6′0") use on my road bike. And now you’re an advocate for 650C wheels to get people lower? Come on!

i can’t vouch for QR sponsored riders.  i can only vouch for the head tube heights chosen.  QR head tube tops on its tri bikes are WAY lower than on its road bikes, or anybody else’s road bikes, and also on a variety of company’s tri bikes (aegis for example).  even a moderately positioned age-group athlete needs a much lower head tube top than what you’d get on a road race bike.  you can get lower head tubes with 700c bikes, but below 57cm you’ll have head tubes of below 10cm.  it depends on how much lower than that you want to go and still have a structurally sound bike.  gerard and i differ on this by maybe a cm or two, but even he wouldn’t, i don’t think, go lower than 9cm.   Actually, the point of the *24 inch* front wheel used on the original "funny bikes" was to allow riders to get closer to one another in the team time trial and team pursuit events.

well, okay, but that’s a different discussion. slowman

Response:

i’ve always like hooker’s bike, never been that impressed with the fork.

Ever seen the MDT aero fork, made of Reynolds 753 tubing? Very similar to the Hooker, and good enough for Shaun Wallace to decide to use… Andrew Coggan

Response:

Ah, come on, Dan – if you’re going to try to score points by attempting to discredit my position, at least have the guts to use my name!

well, i wasn’t referring specifically to you, but okay.  andy andy andy. it kind of has a ring to it. A narrow hub does have less frontal area, but the rim isn’t any different, and neither are the spokes – moving the heads of the latter closer together doesn’t significantly affect the frontal area because a spoked wheel isn’t solid, but is mostly empty space.

i’m of course no expert, but it seems to me that if it was simply empty space we were talking about, we wouldn’t care much about wheels.  but in any case, i’d be happy to concede the point if there was any evidence supporting either side’s view, i just haven’t found any.  if there is, i’m sure you’re aware of it and will point it out. 3.  reduce interference drag between the wheel and the fork Only if you keep the overlocknut distance the same, such that the spokes and fork blades are farther apart.

capital idea. But, if you do it that way, the frontal area of the hub and the wheel isn’t any different,

not so.  you’ve certainly kept the outside dimensions of the entire unit the same, but you’ve reduced the frontal area.  reference up a few paragraphs, that empty space you were talking about. all you’ve done is move the flanges inward, and thus weakened the wheel unnecessarily.

again, the point is that a smaller wheel doesn’t need to be as lenticular.  by the way, i didn’t think this idea up.  dan wynn did. Hooker (and Project 96) chose to minimize the frontal area of the hub by bringing the fork blades in closer, which might actually increase interference drag.

that’s a view held by a variety of people, not just me. Overall, though, my impression is that interference drag between wire spokes and fork blades isn’t all that important – what seems to be more of an issue are interactions between the rim and the fork (up under the crown, not near the hub), or composite spoked wheels like the Hed 3.

good point.  i don’t know.   slowman

Response:

as regards triangulation, the funny thing is, aero frame proponents

Ah, come on, Dan – if you’re going to try to score points by attempting to discredit my position, at least have the guts to use my name! will defend to the death every slight detail of such frames as being worth 15 seconds here, 30 seconds there.  when it comes to something as important as the front wheel, one would think that the notion that you could make a wheel so thin as to… 1.  reduce its frontal profile

A narrow hub does have less frontal area, but the rim isn’t any different, and neither are the spokes – moving the heads of the latter closer together doesn’t significantly affect the frontal area because a spoked wheel isn’t solid, but is mostly empty space. And even if you were using a front disk, narrower isn’t always better – overall, lenticular disks (which have a greater frontal area) tend to outperform flat disks, although the difference is small. 2.  that profile you’re reducing is specifically the spinning, turbulance-producing spokes

For a bicycle wheel spinning at 30 mph, the rotational component of drag is small compared to the translational component…this may explain why there is a law of diminsishing returns when it comes to reducing spoke count, such that once you get down to 18 or so (e.g., 700C Hed CX/Aero), there’s very little to be gained by going even lower. 3.  reduce interference drag between the wheel and the fork

Only if you keep the overlocknut distance the same, such that the spokes and fork blades are farther apart. But, if you do it that way, the frontal area of the hub and the wheel isn’t any different, all you’ve done is move the flanges inward, and thus weakened the wheel unnecessarily. Hooker (and Project 96) chose to minimize the frontal area of the hub by bringing the fork blades in closer, which might actually increase interference drag. Overall, though, my impression is that interference drag between wire spokes and fork blades isn’t all that important – what seems to be more of an issue are interactions between the rim and the fork (up under the crown, not near the hub), or composite spoked wheels like the Hed 3. …would be meaningful.

As I said before, I’m not about to give up any little edge, which is why my TT bike is fitted with a 650C front wheel with a narrow hub. But, the reduction in drag is almost certainly quite small, and I’d rather have a bike with proper aero tubing and a normal width, 700C front wheel, than a bike with round tubing and a narrow, 650C front wheel, especially if the latter required a head tube longer than ~9 cm to bring the elbow pads up high enough. Andrew Coggan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A "normal" road stem is going to drop the bars 3-4cm compared to the 90-degree "tri" stem, without resorting to anything unusual.  That’s plenty for most of us. Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.cynetfl.com/habanero/ Home of the $695 ti frame Going off topic: That brings up a point that I have to deal with.  I love my Profile X-wing one piece aerobar setup but unfortunately with it sunk all the way into the head tube my elbow pads are only about 10 cm below top of the nose of my saddle.  I’ve calculated that I need to be about 13 cm below to have a "flat" back and I cannot achieve this with the X-wing and my Powerwing.  I unfortunately have not found a one piece aerobar that has a negative rise stem (i.e. – an angle that dips towards the ground).  Oh well, I guess I’ll have to go back to a conventional cowhorm/aerobar setup and use an appropriate stem.  Unless someone on the newsgroup knows of a company that would be able to modify my X-wing? Robb Rocket

Robb… I find myself in the same position as you. I’m also using the Project X, really like the bar, but would like to get a little lower. I’ve seen the new Cinelli Angel bar. It definitely drops lower, but has 2 definite downsides for me: 1" aheadset style would require a new fork, and Y shaped aero extension doesn’t allow for use of a forward drink system. As for the Profile, I’m thinking of removing the elbow pad mounts and trying to bolt the pads directly to the wing. Might work… cheers, Andrew — Andrew Peabody/Karen Fisher Coconut Grove, FL

Response:

 I would agree that they are sufficiently robust for routine use (although the Hooker hubs themselves are a bit suspect). I’m not sure, though, just how much of an aerodynamic advantage they actually provide…in the tests Chet Kyle reported on in 1991, the wheel wasn’t all that low in drag, and Hooker claimed only a ~0.2 lbs drag advantage for their complete narrow "front end". I suspect that the Hooker fork alone is worth that much, meaning that the narrow hub by itself really doesn’t provide much of a benefit.

Problem is that most narrow hubs tend to have a relatively large diameter. There is some logic to this, as a norrow hub means that the bearings are closer together, so for the same moment (induced by the lateral force from the road onto the tire) the bearings will have to take a higher loading, and hence you would need larger bearings. But this is not necessarily a linear relationship, so I think it would be possible to have a narrow hub with a diameter close to that of a 100mm hub. Another problem is that if the bearings are close together, there is not much room in between them to make the hub body swoop towards the axle and reduce it’s frontal area that way. G

Question:

Mike, I share your feelings. Part of the problem I have is that I have never really felt comfortable with wave starts. For some reason I always want to start in the first wave. I suspect that, this is a hold out from my running days where everything is mass start. For me, how I do in my age-group is important. However, I am equally interested in how I do overall, with everyone else in the race. When you start in the front, with all of the faster age-groups and pros you always know where you stand. Perhaps this is why I have for many years perferred Ironman distance races. You always know where you are. Starting in a wave start 3 – 4 waves back seems odd. I never really feel like I am in the race. Although, I have done well in this type of situation. Steve Fleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This has been an interesting thread, a lot so because I find myself in the same situation that everyone talks about. I raced pro back in the mid to late 80’s and didn’t do much there. I raced pro in duathlons in the late 80’s and early 90’s and was a consistant top ten finisher on the. Coors Light circuit. Then I went to the age group level as the competition seemed  to improve there over the last 7 or 8 years. It has had its ups and downs. I have done USAT Nationals a bunch of times, and have had some good results there (and bad), including a 2nd last year, where a lot of the top ten were "ex pros". But as long as the ITU is running the international scene, the age group competition on that level is always going to be a mere sideshow as far as I am concerned. This year I had to make some really tough decisions. I have enough top placings and wins each year that I qualify to turn pro per USAT rules. As some have already posted, if a race has $5000 or less in prize money, the money is available to anyone that wants to compete in an "elite wave, whether they are a registered pro or not, so there is not really a lot of incentive to be a pro, when most of the races that I compete in either have no prize money, or fall under that $5000 rule, so i have been eligible to compete for it anyways. But then as a pro, it often means that you can get into a seperate wave, at the front. Over the last couple of years, I have had to start near the back in so many races that I was becoming very tired of this. Oh sure you are saying "well some age group has to start there at the back, why should you deserve anything different from anyone else". True enough, but when you consider that the 35 – 39 age group is often one of the fastest groups (not necessarily "the" fastest, but one of) I think it is very dangerous having to ride 27mph trying to get around hundreds of people on the road that are going considerabley slower. Since USAT does not see fit to make some rules regarding a specific wave order that is safe, I decided to make my own changes, in part for my safety. So I turned pro again this year. I won’t really make any money, or at least not any more than I have in the past, but at least I know my races will be safer. I also won’t be setting any courses on fire, or beating any big time pros either, but that was not my point in turning pro, I can so I did. As far as Pete Kain goes, surely he deserves everything he gets. He is one of the hardest working guys out there. He is not a pro, based on the fact that he doesn’t carry a USAT pro card, or does he. I saw his name mentioned for a tri camp, where they listed him as one of the "pro’s" that would be working the camp. Anyways, Pete obviously has a choice that he can make, he can be a middle tier pro, or a top age grouper. There is nothing wrong with his decision, either way he goes. Mike Plumb

Response:

…<snip… Plus being an age grouper, he is NOT eligible for any prize money just like the pros are not eligible for the awards in his/her age group.

Just a small point because this isn’t always true and we have a couple examples around here of when it’s not. Assuming we are talking about a USAT race, if the total purse is $5000 or more, this is true. Then it is money only for the elite (i.e., pro) field, which races under the Elite (i.e., Pro) version of the rules. These people are not eligible for AG awards. If the purse is less than $5000, the race is under AG rules for all and it is recommended that the RD create a special "Open Division" for pros and age groupers that would be eligible for prize money but not for AG awards. It is only a recommendation though. In our two "local" races (Buster Britton and Mountain Lakes) everyone is eligible for the money ($300/200/100) and the next person simply wins his/her AG. Some pros do come (the men’s winner in both this year is a new pro and Mike Pigg won one of them a couple years ago) but most of the money goes to age groupers who would have placed in their AG had they not been in the money — literally — in the overalls.   — Chuck    Department of Biology,  University of Alabama at Birmingham             http://www.uab.edu/uabbio/amsler.htm

Response:

As triathlon matures and as the great pros of our sport age up and retire, they may still want to race.  It appears that folks don’t have a problem with them in the age groups.

and let me add… …after all, were else are they going to go?  What has always been unique to our sport is the really strong age-group system, and as our greats move on, well, where do they go?  What does happen when a Mike Pigg, or a Paula Newby Fraser…or the Puntous twins for that matter…decide they don’t want to race pro anymore, but they still would like to race?  It would seem that they should be able to sign-up as an age-grouper and go, but as my question about Pete Kain points out, is it a sticking point for some of the "average" age-groupers?  It is a question that we may uniquely be facing. Should there be an "open" or "Masters" division of some sort? Like the clydes/athena, etc? Put another way, if Michael Jordan wants to join a Highland Park (his residence here in IL) rec league basketball team, I guess there is nothing stopping him…but is it "fair" to the other teams? Or is it unfair to Michael to limit his participation? I don’t know the answers to any of this, just posing questions for thoughts before I have to turn my attention away from the athletics and back to the academics.:) Best, Mark (I’ve enjoyed the thread, but I think next time I’ll post something about 650 vs 700c or peeing off the bike!:)

Response:

A few points: – The total pool of money in this sport is not big enough to support a Professinal group of triathletes of a significant size. – The money that pro athletes get, be it prize money or direct sponosr endorsments drops off dramatically from the upper ranks to even the mid-upper ranks. While Peter Reid makes a good living, as he should, I know many triathletes, outstanding athletes in their own right and not to far from the top who are barely scraping by. From what I have observed, Pete Kain lives in the netherworld between the top pros and what many would consider the age-group ranks. Yes, he gets gear from certain sponosors. So do any number of good age group athletes. However, the total amount of money or more likley product that he recieves in a year is unlikely to off-set his living expenses. Note that his landlord is unlikley to accept payment for rent in the form of Continental tires. Thus the need to supplement or even support his triathlon activities with a job. His is as a fitness cinsultant, which is not bad work for a triathlete if you can get it. I recall that Dave Scott listed his "job" years ago as "fitness consultant". I am personally familer with this netherworld as I was there myself for a number of years. Good enough to win/place in my age group at any number of races right up to some of the bigger Ironman races, but realizing that there was no real advantage to "turning pro" as there was no real mony to be had/made. I recall my best year of money winning was a grand total of about $2,000 – tough to pay all of the bills on that. Consequently, I kept my day job. Steve Fleck   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, here is a cover story in Triathlete, nice big article complete with four big pictures of Pete Kain all decked out in Polo gear, stating that he isn’t a pro and his real job as a fitness consultant prevents him from training like one,but it seems to me that if you are getting gear or money to promote a sponsor’s product aren’t you a pro? Is it just a matter of not taking prize money? I have no quibble with Pete Kain, don’t know him, never met him etc, and he is obviously a great athlete, but after seeing this months issue of Triathlete, I’d be a little miffed if Pete showed up and raced age-group after seeing him bedecked in all of this heavily promoted sponsor gear. Is this an age-grouper dressed up like a pro or is this a pro dressed up as an age-grouper?  Am I way off base on this?  I am not suggesting that any retired former pro not be able to race age group, just wondering what the rule of thumb is on this. Thoughts? Mark Mannebach

Response:

Mike, I share your feelings. Part of the problem I have is that I have never really felt comfortable with wave starts.

I share your feelings, but from a totally different perspective. I’m a slow swimmer and always seed myself accordingly. My AG (50-54) is usually seeded further back but I still have to watch my back as faster swimmers from later waves always catch me. I try to stay out of their way because I don’t want to interfere with their race, but it’s a struggle sometimes and breaks my concentration. With a mass start I don’t have to worry about that. I wait, let the fast folks take off, then join in. At one race I did , they "featured" my AG (45-49 at the time) and we were in the first wave. The whole damn swim (1 mile) I was constantly dodging the faster swimmers in each wave. I know they didn’t like it, and neither did I. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

I personally would not feel insulted if an elite won my age-group.  After all, they did the same race I did.  I don’t remember seeing many race applications that say "if you are going to beat so-and-so, don’t show up". 8^) Todd Jensen

Todd, Great point. After all these are RACES we are talking about ie. the fastest person from A to B, wins. Right! Steve Fleck

Response:

This has been an interesting thread, a lot so because I find myself in the same situation that everyone talks about. I raced pro back in the mid to late 80’s and didn’t do much there. I raced pro in duathlons in the late 80’s and early 90’s and was a consistant top ten finisher on the. Coors Light circuit. Then I went to the age group level as the competition seemed  to improve there over the last 7 or 8 years. It has had its ups and downs. I have done USAT Nationals a bunch of times, and have had some good results there (and bad), including a 2nd last year, where a lot of the top ten were "ex pros". But as long as the ITU is running the international scene, the age group competition on that level is always going to be a mere sideshow as far as I am concerned. This year I had to make some really tough decisions. I have enough top placings and wins each year that I qualify to turn pro per USAT rules. As some have already posted, if a race has $5000 or less in prize money, the money is available to anyone that wants to compete in an "elite wave, whether they are a registered pro or not, so there is not really a lot of incentive to be a pro, when most of the races that I compete in either have no prize money, or fall under that $5000 rule, so i have been eligible to compete for it anyways. But then as a pro, it often means that you can get into a seperate wave, at the front. Over the last couple of years, I have had to start near the back in so many races that I was becoming very tired of this. Oh sure you are saying "well some age group has to start there at the back, why should you deserve anything different from anyone else". True enough, but when you consider that the 35 – 39 age group is often one of the fastest groups (not necessarily "the" fastest, but one of) I think it is very dangerous having to ride 27mph trying to get around hundreds of people on the road that are going considerabley slower. Since USAT does not see fit to make some rules regarding a specific wave order that is safe, I decided to make my own changes, in part for my safety. So I turned pro again this year. I won’t really make any money, or at least not any more than I have in the past, but at least I know my races will be safer. I also won’t be setting any courses on fire, or beating any big time pros either, but that was not my point in turning pro, I can so I did. As far as Pete Kain goes, surely he deserves everything he gets. He is one of the hardest working guys out there. He is not a pro, based on the fact that he doesn’t carry a USAT pro card, or does he. I saw his name mentioned for a tri camp, where they listed him as one of the "pro’s" that would be working the camp. Anyways, Pete obviously has a choice that he can make, he can be a middle tier pro, or a top age grouper. There is nothing wrong with his decision, either way he goes. Mike Plumb

Response:

Think about this!    If Pete is a Pro because he receives things from a sponsor then so is Judy Molnar,   Alexandra Paul and on and on.   I don’t think he is in the real meaning of Pro but yes he is in some respects.  I’m told that Paul received pay to race but not in the form of prize money, so be it.   Do we care? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, here is a cover story in Triathlete, nice big article complete with four big pictures of Pete Kain all decked out in Polo gear, stating that he isn’t a pro and his real job as a fitness consultant prevents him from training like one,but it seems to me that if you are getting gear or money to promote a sponsor’s product aren’t you a pro? Is it just a matter of not taking prize money? I have no quibble with Pete Kain, don’t know him, never met him etc, and he is obviously a great athlete, but after seeing this months issue of Triathlete, I’d be a little miffed if Pete showed up and raced age-group after seeing him bedecked in all of this heavily promoted sponsor gear. Is this an age-grouper dressed up like a pro or is this a pro dressed up as an age-grouper?  Am I way off base on this?  I am not suggesting that any retired former pro not be able to race age group, just wondering what the rule of thumb is on this. Thoughts? Mark Mannebach

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Ok, here is a cover story in Triathlete, nice big article complete with four big pictures of Pete Kain all decked out in Polo gear, stating that he isn’t a pro and his real job as a fitness consultant prevents him from training like one,but it seems to me that if you are getting gear or money to promote a sponsor’s product aren’t you a pro? Is it just a matter of not taking prize money?   I have no quibble with Pete Kain, don’t know him, never met him etc, and he is obviously a great athlete, but after seeing this months issue of Triathlete, I’d be a little miffed if Pete showed up and raced age-group after seeing him bedecked in all of this heavily promoted sponsor gear. Is this an age-grouper dressed up like a pro or is this a pro dressed up as an age-grouper?  Am I way off base on this?  I am not suggesting that any retired former pro not be able to race age group, just wondering what the rule of thumb is on this. Thoughts? Mark Mannebach

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Actually getting sponsorship has nothing to do with being a "pro" or age grouper.  Not like the NCAA and college sports where they can obtain no money or gifts from companies, in triathlon the USAT as set up standards to become a pro.  Not too complicated.. basically you have to be in the top 10 of 3 USAT sanctioned events with at least 200 people or more in one year, have the time with in 10% of the overall winners time… and maybe one other qualification.. but not technically hard just physically hard…  I know a couple of  friends who got stuff from Powerbar and other companies but where age groupers…  Plus being an age grouper, he is NOT eligible for any prize money just like the pros are not eligible for the awards in his/her age group. Stefan

So it would seem that with his race record Pete could turn pro any time he chose to do so. The fact that he chooses to keep his career and excel as an age grouper rather than devote the 100% of his time that would be necessary to excel as a pro causes no problems in my mind(at least he’s not in 45-49:) ). More power to him. Competing as a pro in our sport requires a dedication that he just might not want to give at this time. It’s not like there is a ton of money out there for anyone who claims a pro card. Only those at the very top make a good living, and that’s for a fairly short time compared to many other sports. Lots of age groupers receive perks from various manufacturers. A free swimsuit or a box of Powerbars doesn’t make one a pro. As for the Polo gear, keep in mind that Pete’s wife Shari IS a pro mountain biker on the Polo team (not that consistantly being at the top of his age group at Nationals and Worlds every year doesn’t mean something to the folks at RL, too). People complain that Triathlete doesn’t devote enough space to the age groupers, then, when they do a cover story on one, look what happens. Go figure. cheers, Andrew (I don’t have a problem with Alexandra Paul or Judy Molnar, either. If WTC offered me a slot and some publicity I wouldn’t say no and exclaim "I’m not worthy". Would you?) — Andrew Peabody/Karen Fisher Coconut Grove, FL

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Well, it looks like we have generated some response…and I guess that the consensus is that it’s not a problem.  It just seemed like such a large commercial push for Polo in all the pictures that it got me wondering. More power to him I guess . Regards Andrew Peabody’s take on Triathlete’s finally covering an age-grouper, "and look what happens"… I’m not quite sure Pete qualifies as the typical "average" age-grouper. As triathlon matures and as the great pros of our sport age up and retire, they may still want to race.  It appears that folks don’t have a problem with them in the age groups. Best, Mark ("Damn. Scott Tinley is in my age group.") Mannebach  

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According to Rule 2.4 , Pete, and everyone else, is eliglble to be an age group member. Unless he qulifies and elects to aquire am elite card. There is no rule which forces exceptionally talented athletes to get and elite card. There is also no restriction on sponsorship or prize money an age group athlete can accept. — Bruce Platt Chairman, USA Triathlon Safety & Rules Committee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, here is a cover story in Triathlete, nice big article complete with four big pictures of Pete Kain all decked out in Polo gear, stating that he isn’t a pro and his real job as a fitness consultant prevents him from training like one,but it seems to me that if you are getting gear or money to promote a sponsor’s product aren’t you a pro? Is it just a matter of not taking prize money? I have no quibble with Pete Kain, don’t know him, never met him etc, and he is obviously a great athlete, but after seeing this months issue of Triathlete, I’d be a little miffed if Pete showed up and raced age-group after seeing him bedecked in all of this heavily promoted sponsor gear. Is this an age-grouper dressed up like a pro or is this a pro dressed up as an age-grouper?  Am I way off base on this?  I am not suggesting that any retired former pro not be able to race age group, just wondering what the rule of thumb is on this. Thoughts? Mark Mannebach

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The facts: ITU and USAT no longer have a "pro" division.  It is "elite".  Everyone else is an "age-grouper" – which is not the same as "amateur". There are many age-groupers out there who are doing better with sponsorships and prize money than some of the elites. In the USA, non-drafting races with less than $5000 prize money can be made open – that is age-groupers and elites are eligible for the money. Local races that aren’t sanctioned many times have prize money. Many age-groupers train more and work less than some of the pros. My opinions: I personally would not feel insulted if an elite won my age-group.  After all, they did the same race I did.  I don’t remember seeing many race applications that say "if you are going to beat so-and-so, don’t show up". 8^) Todd Jensen

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Competing as a pro in our sport requires a dedication that he just might not want to give at this time. It’s not like there is a ton of money out there for anyone who claims a pro card. Only those at the very top make a good living, and that’s for a fairly short time compared to many other sports.

Only the very top pros can make a decent living out of this sport.  I think (hope) that many, if not most, compete as pros mainly to get stiffer competition. Last year Lauren Alexander showed up at a small local tri in the Philly area.  I was psyched to race against her but ironically she wasn’t allowed to accept the $100 prize for first specifically *because* she was a pro!  It seemed very weird that I, as an amatuer, got the $ but Lauren, the "pro", received a merchandise prize instead!  I felt kind of guilty taking prize money I thought she deserved! There are several local races with this policy, allowing amatuers to accept cash prizes, thus somewhat discouraging top amatuers to turn pro. I think in the article Pete mentioned the same policy in races in his area.  If he raced as a pro he very well might earn less $$ than if he raced as an amatuer! Seems kinda backwards to me! -hug(of course it is all peanuts compared to the American professional ball sports…) Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Actually getting sponsorship has nothing to do with being a "pro" or age grouper.  Not like the NCAA and college sports where they can obtain no money or gifts from companies, in triathlon the USAT as set up standards to become a pro.  Not too complicated.. basically you have to be in the top 10 of 3 USAT sanctioned events with at least 200 people or more in one year, have the time with in 10% of the overall winners time… and maybe one other qualification.. but not technically hard just physically hard…  I know a couple of  friends who got stuff from Powerbar and other companies but where age groupers…  Plus being an age grouper, he is NOT eligible for any prize money just like the pros are not eligible for the awards in his/her age group. Stefan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pete doesn’t travel all over to events, and he doesn’t make his money exclusively from prize money – I think that makes him an age-grouper. Part of that is some kind of fantasy-world self-interest; I think if I ever get good enough to be offered some kind of sponsorship, I don’t want to have to turn it down ‘cuz I have a day job. — TriathRon                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_ `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / (ASCII art blatantly plagiarized from TriBaby’s sig . . . ) Ok, here is a cover story in Triathlete, nice big article complete with four big pictures of Pete Kain all decked out in Polo gear, stating that he isn’t a pro and his real job as a fitness consultant prevents him from training like one,but it seems to me that if you are getting gear or money to promote a sponsor’s product aren’t you a pro? Is it just a matter of not taking prize money? I have no quibble with Pete Kain, don’t know him, never met him etc, and he is obviously a great athlete, but after seeing this months issue of Triathlete, I’d be a little miffed if Pete showed up and raced age-group after seeing him bedecked in all of this heavily promoted sponsor gear. Is this an age-grouper dressed up like a pro or is this a pro dressed up as an age-grouper?  Am I way off base on this?  I am not suggesting that any retired former pro not be able to race age group, just wondering what the rule of thumb is on this. Thoughts? Mark Mannebach

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Pete doesn’t travel all over to events, and he doesn’t make his money exclusively from prize money – I think that makes him an age-grouper. Part of that is some kind of fantasy-world self-interest; I think if I ever get good enough to be offered some kind of sponsorship, I don’t want to have to turn it down ‘cuz I have a day job. — TriathRon                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_ `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / (ASCII art blatantly plagiarized from TriBaby’s sig . . . ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, here is a cover story in Triathlete, nice big article complete with four big pictures of Pete Kain all decked out in Polo gear, stating that he isn’t a pro and his real job as a fitness consultant prevents him from training like one,but it seems to me that if you are getting gear or money to promote a sponsor’s product aren’t you a pro? Is it just a matter of not taking prize money? I have no quibble with Pete Kain, don’t know him, never met him etc, and he is obviously a great athlete, but after seeing this months issue of Triathlete, I’d be a little miffed if Pete showed up and raced age-group after seeing him bedecked in all of this heavily promoted sponsor gear. Is this an age-grouper dressed up like a pro or is this a pro dressed up as an age-grouper?  Am I way off base on this?  I am not suggesting that any retired former pro not be able to race age group, just wondering what the rule of thumb is on this. Thoughts? Mark Mannebach

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Question:

does anyone know the 1999 date of this annual race?

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does anyone know the 1999 date of this annual race?

It is on February 13th. Check http://www.grants.org/ for info and an application. I am truing to convince a few teammates to come out there with me. Mark Rinaldi Inland Inferno Triathlon Club http://members.aol.com/infernotri/home.htm

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This is absolutely a great event.  With that said, I’d check the weather since we have had absolutely no snow in most of New Mexico this year and temps have been at least 10 deg above normal  (50s in Los Alamos & we are usually warmer than Grants).  I also believe that they do not have the capability to make snow for the Mt. Taylor course (this is a semi-educated guess, so you probably should call and make sure). Pat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – does anyone know the 1999 date of this annual race? It is on February 13th. Check http://www.grants.org/ for info and an application. I am truing to convince a few teammates to come out there with me. Mark Rinaldi Inland Inferno Triathlon Club http://members.aol.com/infernotri/home.htm

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Question:

I am interested in what everyone thinks makes a great volunteer at a race. If you could write down a few things about what makes that "difference" between just being a volunteer and being a "GREAT" volunteer, it would be greatly appreciated. Your input will be valuable to the new NIKE Triathlon Series being held this summer in the Northwest (Portland area specifically). You can post here or email me with your comments / concerns / ideas. For those interested in participating in the series, here are the dates: June 14th – NIKE Blue Lake (Troutdale, Or) Sprint / Olympic July 11th – NIKE Hagg Lake (Forest Grove, OR) Sprint / Olympic July 19th – NIKE All Women’s Triathlon (Forest Grove, OR) Sprint Aug. 23rd – NIKE Merwin lake (Woodland, WA) Olympic * All races to be timed using the Champion Chip For entries or more info: www.racecenter.com (503) 644-6822 (AA Sports) Thanks, Dennis McMinn Team NIKE Endorphin

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Any volenteer that follows the RD’s directions is a good thing, and greatly appreacited. A great volenteer is almost always one that has a triathlon background (competition), a good knowlege of the rules, forsight, and a healthy dose of common sence.  Oh yea, and a six pack anders. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am interested in what everyone thinks makes a great volunteer at a race. If you could write down a few things about what makes that "difference" between just being a volunteer and being a "GREAT" volunteer, it would be greatly appreciated. Your input will be valuable to the new NIKE Triathlon Series being held this summer in the Northwest (Portland area specifically). You can post here or email me with your comments / concerns / ideas. For those interested in participating in the series, here are the dates: June 14th – NIKE Blue Lake (Troutdale, Or) Sprint / Olympic July 11th – NIKE Hagg Lake (Forest Grove, OR) Sprint / Olympic July 19th – NIKE All Women’s Triathlon (Forest Grove, OR) Sprint Aug. 23rd – NIKE Merwin lake (Woodland, WA) Olympic * All races to be timed using the Champion Chip For entries or more info: www.racecenter.com (503) 644-6822 (AA Sports) Thanks, Dennis McMinn Team NIKE Endorphin

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A great volunteer is one that SHOWS UP,  with a smile.

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Mracg says… I am interested in what everyone thinks makes a great volunteer at a race.

A great volunteer is a volunteer that: 1. Is where they’re supposed to be when they’re supposed to be. 2. Knows  everything they need to know. e.g. where the course is. (particularly if they are a cycle marshal at a turn around) 3. Cheerful and enthusiastic and has a sense of humour 4. Knows how to lie with a straight face (Doing well, looking good) Best volunteer I ever saw at a race was a run marshal at sprint distance race this year who spent the time doing star jumps and various other energetic execises(in 30 deg C heat wearing full length overalls), gave non-stop encouragement to all the runners and had an ear to ear grin on her face the whole time.  She made my day. — Simon Haigh Illawarra Triathlon Club – Australia http://queene.epsb.edmonton.ab.ca/itc      

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As a race director, you can help make the day go much smoother for both participants and volunteers by making sure your volunteers have as much info about the days events as you can give them, and have someone available to whom they can either turn or direct someone to if any unanswerable questions pop up. I worked at Danskin Denver last year.  I had no idea of what I would be doing until I got to the race.  I, along with one other gentleman, was placed in charge of transition area check in, along with the run start area.  We were both given Danskin T-shirts to wear, while the official race management staff (the people that did know what was going on) wore clothing that did not identify them clearly.  There was a 5k run held in conjunction with the tri that we weren’t told of.  We started getting all kinds of questions about the location and time of the start that we were unable to answer.  Twenty minutes after the race got underway, a lady came up to us to inquire about the start time.  It seems that some of the race applications had the time misprinted, and this person was, understandably, not at all happy about it.  It was her first race, she was very uptight about it, and when she found out she missed it, we caught the brunt of her fury.  She had a number of very legitimate questions and complaints, and there was no one from the race management staff available that we could direct her to.  Since we wore the official Danskin shirts, as far as she was concerned, we were the staff.  We finally managed to track someone down, and she was allowed to run the course on her own.  It was a very uncomfortable situation for all involved. The thing I love to see most from volunteers when I am racing is enthusiasm.  I did a Du a couple of years ago that featured a 3 loop bike course.  The crew directing us at the end of the loops was so wild that they had to be under the influence of something or another.  Picture the scene in the Naked Gun where Leslie Nielson umpires an Angel game.  I think I ended up losing a good thirty seconds on the third lap because I was laughing so hard.  These guys were just about doing cartwheels to point the way. Chuck Berghoefer

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Question:

Anybody can simply ride up to a stop sign, forget to unclip and fall over. It takes real expertise to ride up to a stop sign, unclip the curbside foot perfectly, then shift your weight ever so slightly so that you fall away from the unclipped foot…….into traffic. "The stupidity of your action is directly proportional to the number of people watching." Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply WebRunner Running Page http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html My Model Railroad Page http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/srr/

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"The stupidity of your action is directly proportional to the number of people watching."

I do quite a bit of skiing and mountain biking with a friend.  He is a better skier, and pushes me there and I am a stronger mountain biker and usually push him a bit.  He often says to me "Why did you ride THAT, now I’m going to have to try".  Anyway, we were riding up at Whistler when we came across a large gravel pit.  We were at the top of it.  There was a steep section probably about 40-50 feet in distance, which led into a large pool of water, probably about 30 feet in distance and looked to be about 1 foot deep.  There was also a group of about 10 people out hiking at the far end of the pool.  For some unknown reason, Ed suddenly goes for it.  He is skidding and sliding and generally looking like he is losing it all the way down the slope until the last couple of feet when he miraculously pulled it all together and calmly peddled through the puddle to the cheers of his spectators.  I thought to myself I’ll show them how its really done (I’m sure you can guess where this is going). Off I start down this steep descent, butt behind the seat, stomach resting on my saddle, I’m in perfect control.  As I approach the end of the descent, I use a little too much front brake, my front wheel goes perpendicular to the rest of my bike as I use my bike as a pole vault to get a nice launch out into the puddle.  I enter head first, and fully submerge.  I get up to a round of laughter from all the spectators, particularly Ed.  I think the dog was even laughing. Craig. IMC ‘97 11:27:57

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Any takers for a new thread on this topic? (Looking forward to some clipless pedal stories, I know there are a few of those around.) <Susan’s aft water bottle story snipped OK, I’m game for public humiliation.

Me too. A couple of years ago I did a duathlon that was based at the velodrome, Manukau City.  The transition area was in the centre of the velodrome. (Incidentally, this is a nice venue – flat sheltered area with a grandstand for spectators)  T2 – bike to run transition expected you to stop at the middle of the straight, dismount and cross the track to the t-area.  This was my first race with clipless pedals and I came to a stop, failed to unclip and crashed over the edge of the (concrete) track. I ended up head down the slope with the bike still attached to my feet.  I looked up (or down at my feet) to see "hundreds" of spectators peering down at me – this severely traumatized my ego. (OK – maybe a dozen spectators).  I picked myself up and continued – bleeding hip under the bike shorts – sore knee.  To preserve what was left of my dignity, I raced the second run hard and refused to limp thus maintaining my usual BOP postion. Jeff — |At work:        Phone: +64-9-424 5388      Fax:    +64-21-785 097 | |   Program Development/Client Support      Mobile: +64-21-635 185 | |   Aspect Systems Ltd                                             | |   Specialists in software for Real Estate and Human Resources    | |At home:                                   Phone:  +64-9-424 0336 | |   Husband, Dad, Grandad                                          | |   Enthusiastic but slow triathlete                               | |   Justice of the Peace                                           |

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Any takers for a new thread on this topic? (Looking forward to some clipless pedal stories, I know there are a few of those around.)

I am able to ride my bike into the freight entrance of my building and ride the elevator up to my office. Two winters ago, I come cruising in and clicked out of my  left pedal.  I put my foot down on a freshly, (and quite shiny I might add) waxed floor.  My foot did not stop but instead kept sliding, bringing the rest of me with the bike still attached to my right foot down on the floor.  Besides the embarrassement of falling on your ass in public, I pancaked my front wheel.   The guy who rebuilt my wheel and his wife certainly thought this was funny, as they cracked up.  Maybe it was the way I was waving my arms. jack

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I bought the cheapest pair of Time clipless pedals I could find. They’re plastic and look like they have the half-life of a mayfly. You have to really want to unclip from them. Coming to an "T" intersection, I find a cop directing traffic. There’s no stop sign or stoplight. His hand is up halting traffic from my direction. Big question pops into my mind. "Do I really have to stop — I mean I’m a bicyclist and it’s a T intersection." The Cop knows that this is running through my mind, and just focuses his STOP hand at me with a cold blank stare -amlost daring me to go by. A moment of hesitation at 0.000345 MPH, and I feel my self tipping over. Our eyes are locked. I go down with a crash, and I still cant get out of those Time’s. The cop is still staring at me. "Hey buddy! You alright?!" he says with an evil smile. Yeah right. He was laughing his ass off at me.   That moment haunts me every time I come to a stoplight. Wolfgang – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any takers for a new thread on this topic? (Looking forward to some clipless pedal stories, I know there are a few of those around.) In 1995 for my first 1/2 IM race, I borrowed a behind-the-seat double bottle cage for the first time, the day before my race.  On race morning, I decided to take the bike for a little spin after setting up in transition.  Wonk!  On swinging my leg over the seat to mount, I slammed my thigh into the unfamiliar obstacle *really hard* (it protruded maybe 4 inches above seat level).  I resolved to take this into account next time.  Of course, I completely forgot about it, not once, but twice during the race – mounting after the swim, and again after a pottystop.  I finished the day with three lovely overlapping bruises.   Susan Hall                             (__)       _   Dalhousie University                          .’  `.   IMC’96 12:14 / IMC’97 11:33                  ’"                                                       .       (  )   Triathlon Nova Scotia Homepage               ‘-| )__| :.     http://is.dal.ca/~susanhal/tnshome.html        | |  | |  ’.

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Oh, the bike on the roof rack is the stuff of nightmares. Once, I pulled into a Jack-in-the-box for a fajita pita and came to a comfortable stop at the window. I paid the tab and got my food. That’s when I remembered the bike, and the roof over the drive-through window. I looked up, and the saddle was clearing the roof by a half inch, tops. The people behind me must have though I was Mr. Cool. On a training ride out to McKinney (about 25 miles north of Dallas), we have a series of small-but-steep hills known as the sisters. I ground my way to the top of the first hill and then extracted my bottle to take a drink on the way down. Of course, I dropped the bottle trying to stick it back into cage while coasting. So I stopped at the bottom of the hill and unclipped my left foot. The bottle very politely rolled down the hill to meet me, and I leaned down to the right of the bike to pick it up. Oops! Leaned too far, and over I went. The worst part is when some well-meaning citizen drives up and asks "ARE YOU ALL RIGHT?" This is not what the embarassed cyclist wants to hear, unless the injuries are truly severe. My usual answer is something like "Yes, dammit, go away!" The loss of cool is, after all, worse than the loss of blood. I’m reminded of George Carlin’s description of a cat who runs into a plate-glass window, not seeing the glass, and then walks away coolly as if nothing happened. He tells us to look behind the couch to find our cat convalescing. Or, much earlier, Sid Berman telling us about looking out the plane window (as I am doing right now) and seeing an engine on fire, and being unwilling to scream "FIRE!" because you’d rather die than embarass yourself. He claims that airplane wreckage shows the bottom half of people, still strapped into the seatbelt with the legs crossed nonchalantly. And then there’s the time I attempted a small creek crossing on the expert loop (foolish of this novice) of a mountain bike trail. The front wheel entered the small ditch (which turned out to be just the same size and shape of the wheel, and stuck as if it had suddenly become rooted to the ground. My face hit the dirt so fast I never ever saw the approach. It was stick-BLAM! The very definition of a face plant, and greatly entertaining to my riding buddies, one of whom was my girlfriend at the time. But the resulting two black eyes really impressed my clients. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve got a pedal story.  Any mountain bikers out there?  I was riding one day with some new mtb clipless pedals, the kind with elastomers instead of springs.  It was quite muddy that day, since we were traveling mostly on washed out fire roads.  As my bike, body, and pedals accumulated more and more grime, it became progressively harder and harder to clip out.   Through one particularly technical stretch, I lost my balance and attempted to click out with my right foot.  No luck.  My right shoe was frozen to the pedal.  Fortunately I was moving slowly, so I "gently" fell over on my right side – uninjured, except for the ego.  I lay there on the ground for several minutes, because my left foot wouldn’t click out either!  I ended up completing the ride with my stocking feet resting on top of my shoes, which were still clipped in.  My riding partners were less than sympathetic.  I took a lot of abuse that day.   I’ve still got the pedals if anyone wants to buy them.  Practically unused. John

Rick Denney Remember–free advice is worth what you pay for it!

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 Here’s two, one funny one serious… One: On a training ride I approached an intersection with a stop light.  I decided I didn’t want to clip out and saw a convenient traffic sign, so I thought I would just lean on it until the light changed.  Poor choice… the sign was new in the ground and as a result it S-L-O-W-L-Y tilted over.  I tilted too.  I had Speedplays, which you probably know take 18 degrees rotation to unclip.  By the time I tried to twist out I was too close to the ground.  I had to lie there and take the darn shoe off before I could get up, dust off my bruised ego, and consoled myself with the fact that there were only a dozen or so cars that saw this. Two:  I had rebuilt a bike and was ready to take it for a test ride.  As I pedaled off, I saw someone I know walking so I slowly pedaled and talked for a while.  Decided to show off by sprinting away.  Bad idea, I had forgotten to screw in the right clipless pedal and it snapped off just as I jumped on it (you know, out of saddle and all).  I went down hard on a concrete road, banged up my elbow and ankle and had some good road rash on my shoulder and butt.  Fortunately, I had put on my helmet because I could feel it absorb the impact.  Later inspection showed it to have cracked and I’m sure it saved me from being a vegetable.

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Greetings…what better way to de-lurk than a horribly embarrassing anecdote? My clipless "rapid descent" took place in front of my kids! We were out for a family ride, and I had my new clipless pedals on my MTB when we hit a sandy patch-I had just turned to my son to say "Be careful as you turn your handlebars, becaus……splat! Down I went! Needless to say, this was hysterical for a 6 and 8 year old! Thanks for having me relive the trauma! Andrew G.

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I had just bought my first "real" bike with clipless pedals and was not accustomed to them yet. I was coming back into town and there was this 4 way stop which I must admit that I would usually be able to cruise up to and see that no traffic was coming the previous times (it was not a neavily travelled area).  This time there was traffic and a station wagon with a couple of kids sitting in the back were right in front of me. Since I had gotten cocky with my ability to balance and hoping that the traffic would clear if I gave it a little more time.  As I approached the wagon, I realized that my plan was flawed and that I needed to stop.  Well this calculation took longer than I had.  I was going very slow and could not clip out.  The next thing I knew, I was falling over like the guy on his tricycle on "Laugh-In". After realizing that I was not hurt, I looked up and the kids in the wagon were almost in tears with laughter! I could do nothing but laugh with them!

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I’ve got a pedal story.  Any mountain bikers out there?  I was riding one day with some new mtb clipless pedals, the kind with elastomers instead of springs.  It was quite muddy that day, since we were traveling mostly on washed out fire roads.  As my bike, body, and pedals accumulated more and more grime, it became progressively harder and harder to clip out.   Through one particularly technical stretch, I lost my balance and attempted to click out with my right foot.  No luck.  My right shoe was frozen to the pedal.  Fortunately I was moving slowly, so I "gently" fell over on my right side – uninjured, except for the ego.  I lay there on the ground for several minutes, because my left foot wouldn’t click out either!  I ended up completing the ride with my stocking feet resting on top of my shoes, which were still clipped in.  My riding partners were less than sympathetic.  I took a lot of abuse that day.   I’ve still got the pedals if anyone wants to buy them.  Practically unused. John

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You know, when all the blood in your body is going to your muscles…and none to your brain, it’s not that hard to imagine.  I have a story, unrelated to clipless pedals, but embarassing nonetheless. It was after my second duathlon (before I did any triathlons).  I was coming back from the Lehigh Valley to the Philadelphia area, and my girlfriend needed to stop at the Mall for something.  If you know anything about the King of Prussia Mall, you’d know about the beautiful parking garage they built a few years ago. I had my bike on my car (roof rack…parking garage…getting the picture???).  I realized the problem about 5 nanoseconds too late…BLAM! The bike slammed into a yellow "warning" sign.  The rack was actually ripped off my car, and slid back about two feet, leaving nice gashes in the roof of my car.  Luckily, I had a relatively inexpensive steel-framed bike (which I still use as my generic road bike).  So, there’s a little wrinke in the frame and a few scrapes in my car.  It could have been alot worse. You can stop laughing now… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any takers for a new thread on this topic? (Looking forward to some clipless pedal stories, I know there are a few of those around.) In 1995 for my first 1/2 IM race, I borrowed a behind-the-seat double bottle cage for the first time, the day before my race.  On race morning, I decided to take the bike for a little spin after setting up in transition.  Wonk!  On swinging my leg over the seat to mount, I slammed my thigh into the unfamiliar obstacle *really hard* (it protruded maybe 4 inches above seat level).  I resolved to take this into account next time.  Of course, I completely forgot about it, not once, but twice during the race – mounting after the swim, and again after a pottystop.  I finished the day with three lovely overlapping bruises.   Susan Hall                             (__)       _   Dalhousie University                          .’  `.   IMC’96 12:14 / IMC’97 11:33                  ’"                                                       .       (  )   Triathlon Nova Scotia Homepage               ‘-| )__| :.     http://is.dal.ca/~susanhal/tnshome.html        | |  | |  ’.

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Any takers for a new thread on this topic? (Looking forward to some clipless pedal stories, I know there are a few of those around.)

OK, I’m game. In what was only my third year in this sport, when the BLTS was alive and well, I went down to do the race in Delaware. It was a flat, fast course, but with a couple of hairpin turns. Anyway, I was cruising through the course when I might have took the turn too fast. I was going through fine when I hit a ditch in the road. I lost control of the bike; the last thing I saw was this huge tree in the far corner of the road right in front of me… Luckily, I was still leaning into my turn at the time. The bike hit head on, but I fell through the side of the tree. What wasn’t so lucky was that I landed in a huge thorn bush. I got up, too a casual check of my body, saw it bleeding in places and told myself "I can finish this race" (I was thinking stupidly at the time). I got to the bike, and saw my fork turned into an "s" and my wheel turned into a potato chip. Anyway, I got picked up and transported to the medical tent so they can treat my wounds and pick numerous thorns out of my hands. My first accident, I’ll never forget it… "Iron" Pete Priolo IMC’96 – 10:36:37    IMC’97 – 10:42:53 1998 Schedule so far… Gulf Coast Tri – May 9 – unconfirmed IMC’98 – August 30 – unconfirmed

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Any takers for a new thread on this topic? (Looking forward to some clipless pedal stories, I know there are a few of those around.)

This has happened to me twice! Coming off the bike in the Mount Snow (Vermont) Triathlon (it is a kick ass hilly ride) I spotted a volunteer who showed me to my bike spot. I racked my bike and asked the volunteer which way to run. She looked at me and asked, in a deadpan voice, "Aren’t you going to take off your helmet?" The second time it happened was Montauk (New York). I was using pedal platforms and was concentrating so much on just hopping off my bike and running (I come from the running side of triathlon) I forgot my helmet! I was about 100 yards into the run before I realized it was still on my head. I took it off and passed it to a lady rollerblading and asked her to bring it back to the transition. Well, I got my helmet back after a race volunteer asked me if I had heard him yell "You have your helmet on!" It gets more interesting because I was listenting to the stories at the awards cerimony when a lady told the story of some idiot runner passing off his helmet to her. I think I’ll stick to just plain old running where all I need is a pair of shoes. Andrew Heiz

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Any takers for a new thread on this topic? (Looking forward to some clipless pedal stories, I know there are a few of those around.) In 1995 for my first 1/2 IM race, I borrowed a behind-the-seat double bottle cage for the first time, the day before my race.  On race morning, I decided to take the bike for a little spin after setting up in transition.  Wonk!  On swinging my leg over the seat to mount, I slammed my thigh into the unfamiliar obstacle *really hard* (it protruded maybe 4 inches above seat level).  I resolved to take this into account next time.  Of course, I completely forgot about it, not once, but twice during the race – mounting after the swim, and again after a pottystop.  I finished the day with three lovely overlapping bruises.   Susan Hall                             (__)       _   Dalhousie University                          .’  `.   IMC’96 12:14 / IMC’97 11:33                  ’"                                                       .       (  )   Triathlon Nova Scotia Homepage               ‘-| )__| :.     http://is.dal.ca/~susanhal/tnshome.html        | |  | |  ’.

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Any takers for a new thread on this topic? (Looking forward to some clipless pedal stories, I know there are a few of those around.)

<Susan’s aft water bottle story snipped OK, I’m game for public humiliation. My most dramatic clipless pedal fiasco took place about two seasons ago and was broadcast on the public airwaves. I was riding alone and approached a construction zone with a lane closed and one of those guys with a handheld radio and sign on a pole that says "Stop" on one side and "Slow" on the other. Needless to say, he displayed "Stop" for me. I’d been riding clipless for four years at that point, so I can’t claim inexperience. It was simple brain fade; I just forgot to unclip. Not even a last-minute panic. I just came to a stop and slowly toppled toward the shoulder. Unfortunately, the shoulder was a sea of mud, into which I summarily plopped–still clipped in. The good part was that it was a very soft place to land. I quickly unclipped and became a biped again–no real damage. Not so good was the pattern of mud that started on the right side of my helmet, continued again at my right shoulder and down my upper arm, picked up again above my pelvis and continued from there unbroken along thigh and calf to my foot. It was as if someone had painted one side of my body NC mud red. As I collected what little dignity I could and started to work on the explanation that would be required of me back the office, the lane monitor raised his radio and spoke into it: "You aren’t going to believe what this bicycle guy just did. Check him out when he comes through." He did. David Schoonmaker

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Question:

There are other problems which we are finding within the rankings.  At the most recent USAT Board of Directors meeting, after some lengthy and heated discussions regarding the rankings, a task force was formed to address the problems, and come up with solid solutions in the next few months.

Why aren’t Ironman distance races included in the rankings? Like, Ironman Canada or Ironman Hawaii? Cathy Corning

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In an earlier post an individual asked why USA Triathlon had not created an incentive to race directors to get their results into USAT for rankings.  There is an incentive, and it is if a race director gets race administrative work including readable rankings into the National Office within 21 days, the race director will receive the  entire USAT sanction fee (minus $25 for administrative purposes) back. If they wait beyond 21days, the race director will still receive a substantial portion of the sanction fee up through 32 days.This policy is very liberal, and the sanction fee can amount to several hundred dollars. Unfortunately often, because conducting a race is incredibly detail intensive, race directors will often just drop everything after a race concludes out of sheer exhaustion. Steve Locke USA Triathlon

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Has anyone noticed that the USA Triathlon website has posted the 1996 rankings? Is anyone as disappointed as I? I did eight tri’s last year all USA Triathlon Sanctioned events and I didn’t get a ranking. Only two of the races I did bothered to submitt their results to USA Tri and you need three races to get a ranking. If the rankings are as big a deal as USA Tri makes them out to be, how come there seems to be no incentive for race directors to submit their results?

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Beginning in 1997, race directors who do not submit their race results within 21 days after their event, will not be eligible for a sanction refund.  The sanction fee received by USA Triathlon, is refunded back to the race director, less a $25.00 administation fee, if they return all registration materials (membership forms, etc.), post event reports, payments to officials, and USEABLE RESULTS, within 21 days.  Too often, a race will send in results which cannot be used; bad disc errors, unscanable results, hand written, or incomplete.  With over 500 sanctioned events, I don’t expect that we will ever see 100% compliance, though starting this year, USAT will be holding race directors to their sanction agreements.  Though the average sanction fee collected in between $200-300, withholding the refunds can be significant incentives.  I hope that in 1997, USAT will be able to score  closer to 90% of the events which we sanction. There are other problems which we are finding within the rankings.  At the most recent USAT Board of Directors meeting, after some lengthy and heated discussions regarding the rankings, a task force was formed to address the problems, and come up with solid solutions in the next few months. The entire USAT age group rankings has been mailed to all USAT members in their March/April USA Triathlon Times. Rick Margiotta, USAT President

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Why aren’t Ironman distance races included in the rankings? Like, Ironman Canada or Ironman Hawaii?

Ironman Hawaii is included. I believe Canada is not included because it is not a TriFed race. I guess world championships are excluded from this rule. I always wondered about Canada, since it is a race that many, many Americans (ie TriFed members) train and focus on, and presumeably do their best at. There was even a double Ironman from somewhere in there. Cathy Corning

myke — Tellmesomethingidontknowtellmesomethingicanusepushthebuttonconnectthegoddam ndots

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I too was disappointed…. I did a number of races last year… all of them were santioned and all of them submitted their results but i was not ranked. In my 4 best performances, I finished 1st in my age group in 3 and 2nd in the other race. I am going to fill in the fax forms to see if I get a valid response as to why i was not ranked. cindy gagnon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone noticed that the USA Triathlon website has posted the 1996 rankings? Is anyone as disappointed as I? I did eight tri’s last year all USA Triathlon Sanctioned events and I didn’t get a ranking. Only two of the races I did bothered to submitt their results to USA Tri and you need three races to get a ranking. If the rankings are as big a deal as USA Tri makes them out to be, how come there seems to be no incentive for race directors to submit their results?

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writes: Has anyone noticed that the USA Triathlon website has posted the 1996 rankings? Is anyone as disappointed as I? I did eight tri’s last year all USA Triathlon Sanctioned events and I didn’t get a ranking. Only two of the races I did bothered to submitt their results to USA Tri and you need three races to get a ranking. If the rankings are as big a deal as USA Tri makes them out to be, how come there seems to be no incentive for race directors to submit their results?

I was disappointed because my three best races were not included in the rankings (one wasn’t sanctioned, one had a bad disk and the third had missing results or something).  Despite this I still placed about where I expected among local competitors so I guess others had similar problems. It seems you can’t really compare the score to the previous year’s scores since I raced slower in ‘95 than ‘96 but the score was 2 points lower this year (if I correctly recall last year’s). What gets me is that didn’t they choose the long distance National team based on these results last year because there was insufficient time to find a championship race?  These rankings are great for a fun way to compare yourself to others but they don’t seem highly accurate and certainly shouldn’t be used to determine who is placed on a team! -hug

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Question:

I’ve been a fan of E-CAPS for many years — first read about them in a race packet back in 1988.  There’s no doubt that I can train harder when I use them and recover more quickly between higher intensity efforts. As I like to tell people who ask me if they work:  My body knows when I’m taking them, and it knows when I’m not.  And my best training and racing comes when I include E-CAPS products in my daily supplement plan.

Mike, What does your "daily supplement" plan entail?  I take 1-2 grams of Vitamin C (that’s the most my stomach can handle) since the added stress of training seems to make me very susceptible to colds.  Also, once I’ve got the cold, its virtually impossible to get rid of without 5-6 days of complete inactivity. Here’s another question, how much sleep do you require when your training load increases?  An absolute number may be meaningless, since individual needs vary.  Relative to your "normal" sleep amounts, how much is required to compensate for the effects of training? Last question.  I live in the central time zone and need to be at work before the financial markets open on the east coast, so morning training is not an option.  On weekends, when I train early in the day I feel somewhat sluggish.  I’m sure this will happen at races.  Any thoughts? Thanks, Frank

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Here’s another question, how much sleep do you require when your training load increases?  An absolute number may be meaningless, since individual needs vary.  Relative to your "normal" sleep amounts, how much is required to compensate for the effects of training?

Wasn’t sure if the question was for Mike or for the general public.  I usually need 7.5-8 hours sleep, training or no training or heavy training.  I do not see an increased need for sleep with heavy training, but rather a need for more easy/rest days.   Last question.  I live in the central time zone and need to be at work before the financial markets open on the east coast, so morning training is not an option.  On weekends, when I train early in the day I feel somewhat sluggish.  I’m sure this will happen at races.  Any thoughts?

Buy low, sell high Just kidding.   When I have race coming up that has an early starting time, I try to preacclimate myself to being up at that hour by getting up when I would on race day for a few days before.  This resets my bio-clock so that my body, uh, is used to being up at that hour and all systems behave appropriately … -Rolf —    Rolf "Ironman" Arands, Ph.D. (Chemical Engineering)   Dept. of Chem. and Biochem. Eng’g, Rutgers University  –These are my highly opinionated views, not Rutgers’–

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In my opionion–E-caps do what they claim to do.  I’ve used them on and off for three-four years at this point.  Daily for the past 2.5 years.  My race times and places have definitely improved.  In fact, two years ago, I called Brian Frank to confirm that E-caps were "legal", because I had such a dramatic improvement in my race times! I do agree that there may be other factors to consider–ie, training load, focus, etc.  but who’s to say that the E-caps didn’t help me increase training and focus more just because my body could handle more stress as a result of taking the E-caps? M.Mociun

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What are E-Caps?  I have been doing Triathons for 6 years, have seen lots of ads in Triathlete and other publications, however, still don’t know whats in them. Anyone? Gary

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Gary,   E-CAPS are a line of 15 different nutritional products developed specifically for the needs of endurance athletes.  For more detailed info, visit our web site at http://www.e-caps.com/supplements/ or call 800 336-1977 and we will be happy to mail you complete product information.   Brian Frank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are E-Caps?  I have been doing Triathons for 6 years, have seen lots of ads in Triathlete and other publications, however, still don’t know whats in them. Anyone? Gary

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. b!news.campus.mci.net!news.uky.edu!lamarck.sura.net!dtix.dt.navy.mil!relay- w