Question:

I have just gotten to where I can run 9+ miles in preparation for a 1/2 marathon in February.  However, I find that near the end of the run (like mile 7) I am absolutely starving…seriously hungrier than I have ever been before.  A friend recommended taking "goo" along which is like a liquid power bar and taking that when those pangs hit.  Do they work?  Do you have to have water to use them? Appreciate your advise. Laura

Response:

"…a friend recommended taking "goo" along which is like a liquid power bar and taking that when those pangs hit.  Do they work?  Do you have to have water to use them?

GU may help with your fatigue late in your runs, but I don’t think it’ll satisfy your hunger pangs.  I’d recommend a bagel, banana or something else reasonably light about an hour before you run.  Most of my friends run before eating breakfast in the morning, but I try to squeeze in  a bagel and coffee before heading out to the park to run ‘cuz I’m a hungry little feller…. When you do take GU, definitely have water handy.  It’s kind of like ingesting axle grease, laced with sugar (Not that I REALLY know what axle grease tastes like…. ). Run long and well, Paul Gelinas —- "We must all suffer one of two things: the pain of discipline or the pain of regret or disappointment." —  (Jim Rohn)

Response:

I have just gotten to where I can run 9+ miles in preparation for a 1/2 marathon in February.  However, I find that near the end of the run (like mile 7) I am absolutely starving…seriously hungrier than I have ever been before.  A friend recommended taking "goo" along which is like a liquid power bar and taking that when those pangs hit.  Do they work? Do you have to have water to use them?

I have the same problem.  I run early on Sundays and have a powerbar and water for breakfast.  Then during the run I start to starve somewhere around the first hour.  On the occasions I haven’t eaten, I’ve been wasted physically by the end of the run.  Regardless of whether I snack during the run, I eat the house when I get home. I’ve tried powerbars during the run – one bite every 2k or so after an hour has worked pretty good.  I pretty much have to walk and chew – running is apparently too much for my brain.  I’ve tried gels too (yes, drink them with lots of water) – for me, they don’t take away the hunger as much as help with energy (could be psychosomatic; doesn’t matter to me).  And recently with the cold I’ve started running with gatorade (my water was freezing, but gatorade stays liquid longer) and I’ve found that helps cut the hunger a bit too. The advice I’ve been given by wise people on this ng is try everything during training to find something that works, then use that in a race.   Never, ever, try something for the first time in a race.  The other advice I’ve been given – different things work for different people, so find what works for you. Good luck — Lorne Sundby

Response:

Do not take Goo without water, it is too thick, especially when cold. Try all types and flavors as they are very different in taste and consistancy. The Oneshots give energy but Powerbars fruit flavors do provide some help for the hunger on long runs, as I used 4 of them at Disney. Try drinking more liquids on your run and I found eating a Nutragrain bar (Cinnamon and Brown Sugar) helps the hungries when I do long training runs. And does not make me sick.  In article <%N5g4.1246$% I have just gotten to where I can run 9+ miles

in preparation for a 1/2 marathon in February.  However, I find that

near the end of the run (like mile 7) I am absolutely starving…seriously

hungrier than I have ever been before.  A friend recommended taking "goo"

along which is like a liquid power bar and taking that when those pangs

hit.  Do they work?  Do you have to have water to use them? Appreciate your advise. Laura

Before you buy.

Response:

the reason you should use GU with water (or any gel) is so it will be absorbed quickly.  the normal recommendation is a cup of water to a gel packet.  during a run or triathlon (my normal use of them) i can feel it kick in at about 12-15 minutes.  however, i take them on a regular schedule throughout the race, starting early, so that i never get low or hungry while engaged in the workout or race.   i’ve used almost all of the brands available & all work about equally with me with the exception of squeezies, which didn’t do anything for me.  

Response:

Try taking Chromium, about 200 mcg, it helps with leveling of blood sugar  Roy

Response:

I have just gotten to where I can run 9+ miles in preparation for a 1/2 marathon in February.  However, I find that near the end of the run (like mile 7) I am absolutely starving…seriously hungrier than I have ever been before.  A friend recommended taking "goo" along which is like a liquid power bar and taking that when those pangs hit.  Do they work?  Do you have to have water to use them? Appreciate your advise. Laura

Laura, You may have a very high metabolism which burns up a lot of calories.  If you’re running 9+ miles and craving energy at mile 7, then something doesn’t sound right. Some of us who’ve been running from the mid 70’s and before, never had the benefit of the high carbo GU’s and PowerBar Squeezies. We were told that the energy you take the two days before your long run, will give you enough energy to run your marathon.  All I know is that doing 12 to 20 milers we mostly drank water and no food or carbo drinks.  When we were lucky enought to get someone to act as a sag wagon, we’re have ERG mainly and later with the advent of Gatorade…Gatorade.  So for 6 to 20 mile distances, I’ve never been able to eat along the way.  In ultras it’s a whole different story. But as I’ve repeated over and over, I don’t mess with anyone’s folklore. If it works for you, then do what works. It takes 3 grams of water to store a gram of glycogen in the muscles.  The glycogen you store in the liver feeds the brain.  So it’s important the two days b efore the longer training run to drink enough water so that you are storing the energy you’ll be needing to finish your long run. For many people the longer distances diminish apetite.  I’ve also known many runners who need to get up early to have their bagel or toast or banana or whatever. As someone in one of the other replies mentioned,  check out the amount of water you’re taking the day or two before your run.  When my wife did her first marathon, she carbo loaded but didn’t drink enought water.  So she was carbo loaded but not fully hydrated and hit her wall around 14 or 15 miles. The idea is to keep topping off the tank so that you run out of energy/fuel after you’ve finished your training run or your half or full marathon. That’s the import of water and being sure you’ve stored the energy you’ll need. Good luck on your half marathon next month. — In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer – rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Mindful Running:   http://www.mindfulness.com

Response:

This may be a stupid question, but where do you put your water bottle so it doesn’t bother you when running?  I make sure my route includes a few water fountains here and there, but I’d love to start carrying water / Gatorade.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just gotten to where I can run 9+ miles in preparation for a 1/2 marathon in February.  However, I find that near the end of the run (like mile 7) I am absolutely starving…seriously hungrier than I have ever been before.  A friend recommended taking "goo" along which is like a liquid power bar and taking that when those pangs hit.  Do they work? Do you have to have water to use them? I have the same problem.  I run early on Sundays and have a powerbar and water for breakfast.  Then during the run I start to starve somewhere around the first hour.  On the occasions I haven’t eaten, I’ve been wasted physically by the end of the run.  Regardless of whether I snack during the run, I eat the house when I get home. I’ve tried powerbars during the run – one bite every 2k or so after an hour has worked pretty good.  I pretty much have to walk and chew – running is apparently too much for my brain.  I’ve tried gels too (yes, drink them with lots of water) – for me, they don’t take away the hunger as much as help with energy (could be psychosomatic; doesn’t matter to me).  And recently with the cold I’ve started running with gatorade (my water was freezing, but gatorade stays liquid longer) and I’ve found that helps cut the hunger a bit too. The advice I’ve been given by wise people on this ng is try everything during training to find something that works, then use that in a race. Never, ever, try something for the first time in a race.  The other advice I’ve been given – different things work for different people, so find what works for you. Good luck — Lorne Sundby

Response:

You can buy fancy contraptions that hold a special water bottle.  I found that a fanny pack, buckled snugly, holds a water bottle just fine.  It’s a small nuisance to work the zipper to get the bottle in & out, but cheap and effective. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This may be a stupid question, but where do you put your water bottle so it doesn’t bother you when running?  I make sure my route includes a few water fountains here and there, but I’d love to start carrying water / Gatorade.

Response:

This may be a stupid question, but where do you put your water bottle so it doesn’t bother you when running?  I make sure my route includes a few water fountains here and there, but I’d love to start carrying water / Gatorade.

Your running store would likely carry a single or double bottle carrier – a belt that holds one or two bottles, plus (usually) pockets to hold keys, coins, and other things.  Most people wear it with the bottle at the back, although there is no real right way.  Many people hate this system with a passion because the bottle bugs them when they run.  I wear the bottle on long runs only and it has never bothered me.  Cinched tight, after a while, I don’t realize it is there. — Lorne Sundby

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Question:

So far every one has been right on. The whole event was GREAT! This was my first age group championship, and I had a fantastic time. Even though my time sucked. I sucked at nationals, so it was okay. We would be remiss if we didn’t also say thanks to the people of Saint Joseph. By closing their streets, we inconvienienced them and still they were out there cheering us on and volunteering to help. Volunteers can make or break a race, in this case they helped to make it a very pleasent experience. They blocked off the streets for us! And not with a bunch of college students in orange vests. They used BIG orange dump trucks to block the intersections! I even met Emilio De Soto while getting my race packet!  Congratulations on qualifying, Emilio!  Maybe one day, I will too. I have a few pictures and a race report on my web page.  The URL is http://members.home.net/kueffner/triathlon1.htm.  The web page has links to the race report and pictures (big, high-resolution pictures that take hours to download at 28.8). I only have one question: Whose idea was it to put aid station number two on the bike route in the middle of Highland Street hill?  8-) Jim Kueffner Master Engineer Applied Communications, Inc.

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Good to meet you too Jim. The aid station on the uphill makes more sence that on flat ground or on the down hill.  Usually impossible to get a water bottle from a person standing still when going over 25 MPH! Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

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Question:

A smoking and a non smoking section is kinda like a peeing and a non peeing section in the pool if it’s not in two completely separate rooms. I walk into a restaurant now and notice if someone in the far corner is smoking, and don’t think twice about going else where if there isn’t a smoke free area. Joel — Joel Sylvester Longest Day ‘98 12:10:33 Me: www.roe.ac.uk/jswww/ Edinburgh Triathletes: www.edintri.u-net.com

– Achim Wilfried Heinle

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I’d be interested to know if the current practise in places that have clamped down on smoking is working, ie the numbers of smokers is going down. On my trips to California I’ve enjoyed the smoke free atmosphere in workplaces, restaurants and bars, especially in LA where the air seems cleaner inside than outside. I understand that advertising has been banned in Sweden. I’ve noticed in the UK that over the past 10 years or so smoking has become less and less socially acceptable, and I’ve become less and less tolerant of it as a result. I walk into a restaurant now and notice if someone in the far corner is smoking, and don’t think twice about going else where if there isn’t a smoke free area. I return from an evening out, and I strip off in the hall, the clothes go straight in the washing machine, and I have a shower before I go to bed so the smell of smoke doesn’t get in to the bedroom. There are more and more smoke free restaurants and even pubs. Whether people are giving up or not, my own environment is becoming far more pleasent and healthy. But I don’t think the figures in the UK show that the actual number of smokers is going down. I’m all for banning cigarette advertising and sponsorship, outlawing it in public places and taxing it to death. But I wonder if in countries which are taking the lead against smoking, people are simply retreating to their own homes or actually giving up. – Looking forward to the club Christmas meal and disco. Lots of food, booze, gossip, dancing and NO SMOKE! Joel — Joel Sylvester Longest Day ‘98 12:10:33 Me: www.roe.ac.uk/jswww/ Edinburgh Triathletes: www.edintri.u-net.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

While I support the concept of enough people making the personal choice to eschew tobacco that farmers find themselves switching to other produce which has a better market, I find it sad that so many people subscribe to the "it’s bad, let’s outlaw it", whatever "it" is.  You have not only personal choice, but a responsibility to choose wisely.  You have the opportunity to influence your children and friends.  Frankly, I consider the laws to save us from ourselves to be worse that nuisances, but rather an erosion of the principle of freedoms in life. Just as the (US) government protects our rights to advocate an unpopular point of view, it should also allow consenting adults to have their party without interference from others.  This would apply to tobacco growers and smokers in this case.

Amen, brothe Thad. Many could learn from your point of view. Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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There is a local Tobacco festival that sponsors a 5K.  While I’ve never done it, it has been staged for several years now.  I would think this implies it has been somewhat successful.  I wonder what the awards would be?  Pack of smokes?  Maybe in addition to age groups, they have smoker/non-smoker divisions? Dave B. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

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the question: why are cigarettes — undeniably lethal — legal and marijuana, undeniably safer, with admitted benefits for some, illegal?  You can’t get past the hypocrisy.  

I dunno, I have a hard time swallowing the "undeniably safer" assertion. It strikes me that weed’s mind-altering characteristics render it pretty darned unsafe.  And it still isn’t any picnic for the lungs. Having said all that, I agree that legalizing the junk probably is smarter than the current practice.  Legalize it, control it, tax it, and make some money off of it.   Disgusting stuff.  But we all have our vices.  I admit to being addicted to endorphines, sugar, and bubble-gum. — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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: I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting : events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. : : True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as : directed". : You could say that air kills most of its users.

Air kills it’s users? Oh come on Daniel, does anyone make a fat profit out of making it more addictive and therefore more deadly to it’s users? Well, yes of course they do, the tobacco industry. I’d say I get through a fair bit of air every week and I’m confident that my lungs and circulatory system are in better shape than if I’d combined my air intake with tobacco smoke. Phil Squire – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Daniel.

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Get off your high horse Steve.                 Scott Galehouse

Why? I happen to agree and find nothing "high horse" about it. I would not attend a triathlon or run sponsored by a tobacco company. I quit smoking and find nothing remotely positive about a product that is the antithesis of health. Mike "What’s so unusual about that?" Tennent "TriBop" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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Hey, Maybe we can get a drug cartel to sponser a triathlon too. you know, free speach and all.   And the good thing about about Mariajunna, Cocaine, Angel dust, and Heroin is all of them combined kill les than 2% as many people every year as compared to tobacco.   So before we let the Drug Kingpins (Tobacco Company Executives) of the deadliest drug known to man sponsor our triathlons, maybe we should start out with some of the not so dangerous drugs. Steve Adams  P.S.(Joe Camel is a drug pushing scumbag)

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I would run a marathon for a Camel. — — Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

Response:

Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. It’s legal status is a fact and rather oxymoronic considering it’s distructive nature.  I can only hope that in my lifetime it is banned and the tobacco growers can find an alternate product to grow so the current tobacco industry can financially survive.

While I support the concept of enough people making the personal choice to eschew tobacco that farmers find themselves switching to other produce which has a better market, I find it sad that so many people subscribe to the "it’s bad, let’s outlaw it", whatever "it" is.  You have not only personal choice, but a responsibility to choose wisely.  You have the opportunity to influence your children and friends.  Frankly, I consider the laws to save us from ourselves to be worse that nuisances, but rather an erosion of the principle of freedoms in life. Just as the (US) government protects our rights to advocate an unpopular point of view, it should also allow consenting adults to have their party without interference from others.  This would apply to tobacco growers and smokers in this case. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore. A product we don’t like and a product that distroys life, is not quite the same, at least in my book.  

Who is "we"?  Certainly not all citizens.  As far as destroying life, the same could be said statistically of cars or bicycles.  Every person chooses their own risks and pleasures. Yes, I endorse your right to boycott tobacco-sponsored events.  And no, I don’t smoke. Thad

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Great thread on tobacco sponsorships, but only theoretical, wot?  It seems unlikely that we’ll ever hear of the Kool Lite Ironman Championship (although if I’m not mistaken  "Lucky 7," the sponsor of an adventure race in China, is a Chinese cigarette co.). Cigarettes are lethal, but also legal.  So long as they’re legal, cigarette co.s have 1st Amendment rights and can advertise and sponsor events.  Why not? And any individual can choose to participate, stay home, set up a picket line, smoke or not smoke, based on his or her principles, lack of principles, or interest.  These ideas seem basic. More interesting, and raised by only one writer that I noticed (hi, Steve), is the question: why are cigarettes — undeniably lethal — legal and marijuana, undeniably safer, with admitted benefits for some, illegal?  You can’t get past the hypocrisy.   I don’t smoke or use anything (except Zantac, vitamin supplements, soy protein powder, Met-Rx, and daily asperin, natch), but let’s face it — we could erase the national deficit with what we spend on the "war on drugs" (the results of which make Vietnam look like a victory). A Martian, here for only one day, would send home the irrational report that some mind-altering, potentially harmful substances (tobacco, alcohol) are legal with only some (if any) adverse social consequences to their users, and others illegal, with potentially disasterous consequences (life in prison for a 3rd strike, e.g.).  What’s the point? So I’m wating for the announcement of the Kona Gold Ironman Championship, with awards for every participant.

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Excellent, this got something going, I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed". Use, mind you, that is fully a VOLUNTARY action on the part of the user. Must we ban the legal advertisement of a legal product considering smoking is an activity people choose to do?

If I wrote we / you (I’m not in the US) should ban the advertising of a legal product then I don’t recall doing so. What I said was that : True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed".

I DID NOT advocate the banning of tobacco advertising. What you seem to be hung up on is the fact that tobacco is legal, and therefore it is OK to advertise it without scruple? FWIW I would not take part in any Triathlon that I knew was sponsored by a tobacco company. Red meat and butter, dare I say, kill their users, too, used as directed. Do you suggest banning them from sponsorship, too?

I DID NOT advocate the banning of tobacco advertising / sponsorship! Red meat and butter are not addictive, nor do the companies who produce them tamper with the product in order to make them more so. I did write: "I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech." My intention was to illustrate that if the majority find something unacceptable then something would / should be done. While that is not the case, fine, anything goes. I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech. Sure, like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. However, I’d bet more people find trampling on the constitution much more unacceptable than Marlboro sponsoring a few sporting events.

Absolutely, however I have not suggested the banning of advertising, neither did I suggest trampling upon the constitution. (This constitution/trampling thing is always a good way of getting feelings going) Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. I said the "so called" right to free speech because I felt, perhaps wrongly, that there must have been laws passed to change the original bill of rights. Correct me I I’m wrong. This is America.

Well, no it isn’t. This is the Internet, and while America has the majority of subscribers, it is not the Internet. Nor is Usenet. Free speech is for everybody. Usenet is a great example.

Absolutely. OOI do you draw no limits on free speech at all? Phil Squire – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) Me? Oh I just rant on;-) Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

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I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. If tobacco use did not attract and harm so many of our youth and it wasn’t such a known killer and/or distroyer of quality of life for all, then I would agree.

Doug, you may need government to tell you what you can and cannot put in your body, as long as it doesn’t harm others. I don’t. I do not favor youth smoking. However, I find it ridiculous that we scratch our heads and wonder why teenage smoking is going up considering we’re doing everything to outlaw it—except outlawing it! If it’s so bad, it ought to be outlawed. Period. But the government makes money on cigs, so it will never be so. In the meantime, we tell kids smoking is bad and evil. So naturally, they do it. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. It’s legal status is a fact and rather oxymoronic considering it’s distructive nature.  I can only hope that in my lifetime it is banned and the tobacco growers can find an alternate product to grow so the current tobacco industry can financially survive.

So I guess you do need government to tell you what you can, and cannot, put in your body, tobacco-wise. Can you still get them cheap at the PX?

Don’t know. Never smoked. Never will. Never bought ‘em. If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal. You have my vote.  And to think, we would ever agree.

It will never be outlawed because the states are making money off the "tobacco deal." To outlaw it would mean less money for the states. The states make more money off tobacco than the tobacco companies do. A product we don’t like and a product that distroys life, is not quite the same, at least in my book.

And you, Doug, have the choice whether to injest such product. We all have the right to destroy our bodies, right? If your answer is no, do you favor government mandated exercise? I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) A surprise that you feel the urge to rant or the fact you stopped with one iteration? <g

I’ll keep going as long as this thread does. That’s how I operate. Hi, Doug!! Hugs and kisses to you. Does this mean we can go to the zoo together?  :)

Bronx or PDX? Mike — When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

Response:

I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed".

Use, mind you, that is fully a VOLUNTARY action on the part of the user. Must we ban the legal advertisement of a legal product considering smoking is an activity people choose to do? Red meat and butter, dare I say, kill their users, too, used as directed. Do you suggest banning them from sponsorship, too? I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech.

Sure, like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. However, I’d bet more people find trampling on the constitution much more unacceptable than Marlboro sponsoring a few sporting events. This is America. Free speech is for everybody. Usenet is a great example. I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) Me? Oh I just rant on;-)

Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

Response:

: I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting : events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. : : True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as : directed". : You could say that air kills most of its users. Daniel.

Response:

Get off your high horse Steve.                 Scott Galehouse

It’s not about being on a "high horse".  It’s about a group of people without morals or conscience getting rich by peddling a highly addictive and poisinous product.   I have watched several friends and a few relatives die as a direct result of tobacco and I will say it again. I would have nothing to do with any athletic event that had a tobacco company sponsor.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

Response:

I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine.

If tobacco use did not attract and harm so many of our youth and it wasn’t such a known killer and/or distroyer of quality of life for all, then I would agree. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily.

It’s legal status is a fact and rather oxymoronic considering it’s distructive nature.  I can only hope that in my lifetime it is banned and the tobacco growers can find an alternate product to grow so the current tobacco industry can financially survive. Can you still get them cheap at the PX? As a sociey we do set many double standards. We often point at alcohol for valid comparison. I’m sure there are others.     If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal.

You have my vote.  And to think, we would ever agree. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore.

A product we don’t like and a product that distroys life, is not quite the same, at least in my book.   I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^)

A surprise that you feel the urge to rant or the fact you stopped with one iteration? <g Hi, Doug!!

Hugs and kisses to you. Does this mean we can go to the zoo together?  :) — Caveat Lector!

Response:

Sort of a chicken and egg or selling your soul to the devil problem. Remember in the earlier days of the Ironman, Budlight was a title sponsor. I’m sure MADD if it existed back them would not have been happy.  The Budlight sponsorship probably helped the Ironman survive to what it is today. When Hooter’s signed as a major sponsor for the Aloha Bowl there was an uproar here in Hawaii.  Let face it unless the the people making the noise can come up another sponsor, the Aloha Bowl has no choice.  In fact considering the bad economy in Hawaii, the Aloha Bowl is pretty lucky. All events rely on volunteers to survive.  The major events need sponsorship.  I know Valerie Silk as much as she loved the Ironman could not put the Ironman on for free.  I seem to recall she eventually needed to come up with prize money to continue Ironman’s success. I love participating in triathlons.  I know the small events I participate in are successful because of the volunteers.  I make it a point to volunteer for sporting events that I don’t particpate in.  In fact, it’s a lot of fun watching some kid who look no more than 5 years old or someone who looks like they are in their eightys complete a 1K or 2K swim. Bottom line, we need volunteers and sponors. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

Response:

  C’mon, the irony of tobacco sponsorship in triathlon is quite amusing. I say let tobacco companies put up their money–I don’t think that they are going to convert many triathletes into smokers.     Brian Meyer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. The thought of a tobacco company sponsoring an athletic event is repugnant to me and I would have nothing to do with such an event.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

Response:

Get off your high horse Steve.                  Scott Galehouse

Response:

What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events.

The thought of a tobacco company sponsoring an athletic event is repugnant to me and I would have nothing to do with such an event.                Steve Fredericks                Oceanside, CA

Response:

I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily.

True, but AFAIK it’s the only one which kills it’s users if "used as directed". If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore.

I’m not familiar with the constitution but I’m sure there are laws regarding certain things which most people find unacceptable, even if they impinge on the so called right to free speech. I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^)

Me? Oh I just rant on;-) Phil Hi, Doug!! Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign

So true! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

Response:

What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

Response:

Who cares.  I know I don’t.  I do not use the products, and am more than willing enough to aloow for lower app. fees, and larger prozes for thos who win (certainly not me). I don’t think the tri sports, or most others for that matter are in danger od being influenced by Joe Camel. I know I personally do not let politically correct decisions run my daily life (I am a cop, i can’t).  If they want to write a check, I say give them a pen. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

Response:

What is your opinion on tobacco company sponsorship of sporting events. If you subscribe to Triathlon Digest you will have read several days of opinions on this topic. Ken

I frankly don’t care if tobacco companies want to sponsor sporting events. Fine. Tobacco is a legal product whose users injest voluntarily. If tobacco is so bad that we must ban it’s advertising, it should be made illegal. Then we should consider tinkering with the constitution to ban the free speech rights of those selling products we don’t like anymore. I feel a rant coming on, so I’ll stop.  :^) Hi, Doug!! Mike When good men are silent, evil will reign "In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer." The Thompson of web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm The Barefoot Lizard Page: http://www.barefootlizard.com

Response:

Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/. Although this is somewhat suggestive, it does NOT mean that secondhand smoke constitutes a danger. — [Eric Rescorla

Please read the complete report at WWW.WHO CARES IT JUST STINKS. COM D.J. " did you ever look at a real pretty girl in a car blowing cig smoke out  of her mouth at a stop light— YUK"  (IRONKID)

Response:

Those who supported tobacco sponsorship of triathlons and road races may be interested in a detailed analysis of the product. The province of British Columbia has published the first publicly. detailed analysis of chemicals contained in Canadian cigarettes. Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/. Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web www.runnersweb.com/running.html A running and triathlon resource site. Voting Booth: www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_vote.html

Response:

Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/.

Although this is somewhat suggestive, it does NOT mean that secondhand smoke constitutes a danger. The issue here is that they’re measuring the output in terms of ug/cigarette, but what’s relevant is total intake into your lungs, which is much more difficult to measure. That said, this report is fairly loaded. The quotes for how dangerous the various chemicals are are quite misleading. While I’m sure taht some of these chemicals are quite toxic, let’s take a look at of them:         Acetone: "Workers exposed to acetone vapours experienced transient         eye and nose irritation." Acetone is widely used in nail polish remover. When I worked in a chemistry lab, we used to use squirt bottles of acetone to dry glassware.         Ammonia: "Ammonia can increase susceptibility to viral illness and         aggravate chronic respiratory conditions." Ammonia is a common kitchen cleaning agent. It’s one of the components of Windex. Note that both ammonia and acetone have quite noticeable smells, but you can’t smell either of them in cigarette smoke to any noticeable degree. I suspect you get FAR more exposure to ammonia when cleaning the kitchen. Remember, we’re talking about inhaling fumes here, not drinking it. Similarly, listing hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide is fairly misleading. They’re both quite toxic, but they’re acute toxins not cumulative toxins. So, if you’re not suffering ill effects immediately, you’re probably not going to. (They interfere with transport). There’s nowhere near enough in secondhand cigarette smoke to do you any damage at all. Your car puts out a lot more CO, for instance. Look, it’s perfectly clear that smoking is bad for you, but this sort of list of toxic chemical without any indication of the generally considered safe amount is just irresponsible. By constrast, it’s not clear that secondhand smoke is bad for you, and this doesn’t add anything to that debate either. -Ekr —           eTrain – free triathlon training software               http://www.rtfm.com/tri/etrain.html

Response:

Eric Rescorla wrote "your car puts out a lot more CO, for instance" I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want to sit behind a parked car sniffing the fumes on any kind of a regular basis.    Or to compare it to second hand smoke, (Kids don’t do this without your parents permision) Try bringing your car into the living room, close all the doors and windows, start the car, then take a nice little nap.   Now you’ve proved your point, your car does put out a lot more CO, and everyone in the house is dead. How does that make second hand smoke not bad for you? Steve "I’d rather sit next to an I.V. drug user than to sit next to a smoker" Adams

Response:

In reference to dangerous babbling about the second hand smoke not being a health hazard, you either work for a cig company, have never been out in the real world and exposed to some idiot blowing his/hers putrid smelling smoke in your direction or you need to get off of your daddys computer and not tie up space in this news group dedicated to the ultra fit! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Among other things it reveals that secondhand smoke may contain up to TWICE the level of some toxic chemicals as that inhaled directly by cigarette smokers. The complete report is at: http://www.cctc.ca/bcreports/. Although this is somewhat suggestive, it does NOT mean that secondhand smoke constitutes a danger. The issue here is that they’re measuring the output in terms of ug/cigarette, but what’s relevant is total intake into your lungs, which is much more difficult to measure. That said, this report is fairly loaded. The quotes for how dangerous the various chemicals are are quite misleading. While I’m sure taht some of these chemicals are quite toxic, let’s take a look at of them:        Acetone: "Workers exposed to acetone vapours experienced transient        eye and nose irritation." Acetone is widely used in nail polish remover. When I worked in a chemistry lab, we used to use squirt bottles of acetone to dry glassware.        Ammonia: "Ammonia can increase susceptibility to viral illness and        aggravate chronic respiratory conditions." Ammonia is a common kitchen cleaning agent. It’s one of the components of Windex. Note that both ammonia and acetone have quite noticeable smells, but you can’t smell either of them in cigarette smoke to any noticeable degree. I suspect you get FAR more exposure to ammonia when cleaning the kitchen. Remember, we’re talking about inhaling fumes here, not drinking it. Similarly, listing hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide is fairly misleading. They’re both quite toxic, but they’re acute toxins not cumulative toxins. So, if you’re not suffering ill effects immediately, you’re probably not going to. (They interfere with transport). There’s nowhere near enough in secondhand cigarette smoke to do you any damage at all. Your car puts out a lot more CO, for instance. Look, it’s perfectly clear that smoking is bad for you, but this sort of list of toxic chemical without any indication of the generally considered safe amount is just irresponsible. By constrast, it’s not clear that secondhand smoke is bad for you, and this doesn’t add anything to that debate either. -Ekr — [Eric Rescorla

Response:

Question:

Well, it’s almost October, and since I’ve been exposed by John Welch, I must confess. Yep, I killed FloJo.  ;-) I did enlist the help of OJ, however.  It was a perfect triathlete crime….through the lake, speed through transition, into the changing tent, out onto the bike course, slip into the garage, into her room… …nothing but neck. Ooops…..wrong crime.  ;-) — "And another thing — Hanson blows." – Donald Trump Jason Mayfield Arlington, VA

Response:

Guys, I know this is all in jest, but is it really appropriate? Have a little class for a great athlete. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, it’s almost October, and since I’ve been exposed by John Welch, I must confess. Yep, I killed FloJo.  ;-) I did enlist the help of OJ, however.  It was a perfect triathlete crime….through the lake, speed through transition, into the changing tent, out onto the bike course, slip into the garage, into her room… …nothing but neck. Ooops…..wrong crime.  ;-)

Response:

I agree! OJ was a great athlete, and doesn’t deserve this… Paulo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Guys, I know this is all in jest, but is it really appropriate? Have a little class for a great athlete. Well, it’s almost October, and since I’ve been exposed by John Welch, I must confess. Yep, I killed FloJo.  ;-) I did enlist the help of OJ, however.  It was a perfect triathlete crime….through the lake, speed through transition, into the changing tent, out onto the bike course, slip into the garage, into her room… …nothing but neck. Ooops…..wrong crime.  ;-)

Response:

I agree! OJ was a great athlete, and doesn’t deserve this… Paulo Yeah. I agree.  Most of us were thinking something more along the

lines of say…. the gas chamber or electric chair or lethal injection. Athlete prowess is no excuse for murder. Marty "juice the Juice" Carson

Response:

OK, let me see if I’m getting this right…what you’re saying is that Jason’s athletic prowess is no excuse for murder? )) (there, this time I’ll put a smiley…) Paulo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree! OJ was a great athlete, and doesn’t deserve this… Paulo Yeah. I agree.  Most of us were thinking something more along the lines of say…. the gas chamber or electric chair or lethal injection. Athlete prowess is no excuse for murder. Marty "juice the Juice" Carson

Response:

: OK, let me see if I’m getting this right…what you’re saying is that : Jason’s athletic prowess is no excuse for murder? )) (there, this time : I’ll put a smiley…) Hey, isn’t a 16:48 at IMC worth at least as much as a few Heismans?  ;-) — "You can’t be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline.  It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."   * Frank Zappa Jason Mayfield Arlington, VA

Response:

Question:

…looking for a triathlon (1/4 or 1/2) in the Los Angeles or San Fransisco area round Easter time next year…a date and contact info would be very much appreciated. TIA Filip Michiels Aarschots Triathlon Team Belgium

Response:

…looking for a triathlon (1/4 or 1/2) in the Los Angeles or San Fransisco area round Easter time next year…a date and contact info would be very much appreciated.

For SF/BA: http://www.slip.net/~leeway/tris.html See links at the bottom of the page, too. Regards, Lee

Response:

There is a series of races in the L.A. area with 2 in April and one in May. The first 2 are sprints and the 3rd is just under an olympic. There web site is at http://www.expresspages.com/t/trievents. Hope to see you there. Mark Rinaldi Inland Inferno Triathlon Club http://members.aol.com/infernotri/home.htm

Response:

For information on Los Angeles/Southern California Triathlons, check out the RaceNet website at www.GoRaceNet.com I don’t think any ‘99 events have been posted yet.  But you can signup for a free service that they provide that will send you an e-mail when new triathlons hit the calendar. – Marc Tanguay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …looking for a triathlon (1/4 or 1/2) in the Los Angeles or San Fransisco area round Easter time next year…a date and contact info would be very much appreciated. TIA Filip Michiels Aarschots Triathlon Team Belgium

Response:

Question:

Two different purposes, which HRM is best for each? 1.  I’d like to begin using an HRM.  I love techno-wennie gadgets and would like something with all the features.  BUT it must be durable and reliable. 2.  I’d like to purchase a HRM for my father for Christmas.   He’s not a triathlete.  He is having some pulmonary problems.  He is not good with gadgets.  So, it must work with minimal input from the user.  I’m helping him to formulate a training program and an HRM is important. Any recommendations? Thank you.

Response:

Russel,  In answer to number 1, I’d suggest the Polar Vantage XL and the computer interface. I’ve used one for four years, and have just added the interface in the last three months. I have the older model, which was unchanged for about 6-7 years at least. It’s REALLY built well.  One great advantage it has is that you can set it to sample your HR at 5,15,or 60 second intervals automatically. You can then not worry about looking at it all the time, as you can replay the whole session later. With the interface, you can download it to the computer and store/ analyze it to you heart’s content. The big drawback is the price. (The new XL is about $350, and the interface $500!) It is the ultimate in functions and reliability.  For number 2, if you want to just have a RAL simple HRM, the Polar Beat just displays the HR, and you don’t even have to turn it on, It automatically turns on when it receives a signal from the cheststrap.  I think that Polar make the most reliable HRM’s, adn their customer service has been great in my experience. (Compensation from Polar marketing will glady be accepted!)    Chuck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two different purposes, which HRM is best for each? 1.  I’d like to begin using an HRM.  I love techno-wennie gadgets and would like something with all the features.  BUT it must be durable and reliable. 2.  I’d like to purchase a HRM for my father for Christmas.   He’s not a triathlete.  He is having some pulmonary problems.  He is not good with gadgets.  So, it must work with minimal input from the user.  I’m helping him to formulate a training program and an HRM is important. Any recommendations? Thank you.

Response:

Question:

While many of you superb athletes are at Wildflower, I will be doing the Tom Landry Triathalon (short course) in Dallas.  Since I have a shoulder problem making swimming difficult, and an Achilles tendon problem making running difficult this ought to be some kind of fun…. I’m doing this because I posted a message of complaint a week ago (titled Woe is me) and I got an answer back from someone who said they would sooner be last than watch.  So, I may be doing the breast stroke, and limp when I run, but I WILL finish. (and damn it I won’t be last, either!) Good luck to all whatever your course may be. John

Response:

I’ll be behind you, assumming I make it over there in time to register. I’m in town for 22 hours–ought to be enough to fit in a sprint tri! Good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While many of you superb athletes are at Wildflower, I will be doing the Tom Landry Triathalon (short course) in Dallas.  Since I have a shoulder problem making swimming difficult, and an Achilles tendon problem making running difficult this ought to be some kind of fun…. I’m doing this because I posted a message of complaint a week ago (titled Woe is me) and I got an answer back from someone who said they would sooner be last than watch.  So, I may be doing the breast stroke, and limp when I run, but I WILL finish. (and damn it I won’t be last, either!) Good luck to all whatever your course may be. John

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hopefully, someone out there can give me some good advice.  I did the Walt Disney marathon Jan 5th.  I had trained for 16 weeks, ave. about 35-45 miles per week, with the traditional once a week long run from 12-20 miles.  I ran the race in 4:17, and felt relatively good.  Difficulty from mile 19 on, only walking about a quarter mile at 23, plus through the water stops to make sure I drank.    I drank 2 cups of water, and 1 cup of powerade (yuck) each stop (there were 20).  Plus a gel packet every 4 miles.  I was well hydrated to  start the race.  My problems started about 1 hour post race.  I vomited several times, and was feeling very confused.  Unfortunately, the medical tent let me escape, without fluids.  I went back to my hotel with family.  My family let me sleep for about an hour, and returned to check on me. Apparently I didn’t recognize them at this time.  (I don’t recall anything for the 24 hours following my return to hotel)     They took me to the hospital, where I was diagnosed with hyponatremic encephalopathy.  Na: 124 on entry.   Other abnormal blood parameters were ck-mb, and of course cpk.  they did a variety of tests, but that was the final diagnosis.  After a few bags of fluids and 24 hours of rest, I returned to the world of the living.        Can anyone help me figure out what I need to do to prevent this from occurring again?  I did Ironman Hawaii in 95 and didn’t have this kind of problem.  I am planning on Ironman Canada this year.  I can’t drink large amts of powerade or other carbonated junk.  Gatorade works great, but I don’t know what IMC drink will be.       Feel free to use medical terms, I am a veterinarian, but we don’t see this in animals!  They don’t usually over do it I guess!  Thanks in advance for any help. Gina  

 Gina: There is a lot in the sportsmed literature about this problem: Question: 1.  did you train in the same temperatures as the race, this will change your sweating and salt and water metabolism and can contribute to this problem? 2.  did you do one or two 20 mile runs with the SAME types of fluids and gels as the race? 3.  did you run during the same aspect of your menstrual cycle as during training? These factors, controlled, probably would have given you a better chance of finishing without this type of result.

Response:

Thanks for the post Dr. Jenkins.    I have been arguing this point with people for years. Many athletes I know are sucked in by health food hype. For some reason the health food set seems to think sodium is an enemy.  I have been trying to tell them that it is not a worry if you don’t have high blood pressure and can be dangerous if you’re athletic, particulaly in the here in the south where we sweat a whole lot.  Should I hold my ground, is this basically the case?    Thanks, John Hural  almost Ph.D. (immunology)

John,  What you state is true. Sodium is not the enemy. Without it, you die. If one does not have a medical condition necessitating a reduced sodium diet then there is really no reason to restrict intake. For healthy people, a low sodium diet will not prevent disease. While it is true that many sedentary individuals consume more sodium than is needed and probably should cut back, the situation is *very* different for healthy athletes who exercise in the heat. This latter group is at great risk for hyponatremia if they reduce their sodium intake below their needs. This is well documented in the medical literature. Hyponatremia can be a life-threatening condition, and is often the culprit for those requiring hospitalization following an endurance event. For example, there were only a few people requiring overnight hospitalization following last years (1996) Houston marathon. Two of those patients, however, were critically ill and in the intensive care unit because of seizures and coma which were directly caused by hyponatremia. So the next time you hear, "Gosh you’re a triathlete and seem so healthy. Why aren’t you reducing your salt intake"? You can smile and explain why.             See you,                Mark — Mark A. Jenkins, M.D proprietor SportsMed Web http://riceinfo.rice.edu/~jenkins

Response:

Thanks for the post Dr. Jenkins.    I have been arguing this point with people for years. Many athletes I know are sucked in by health food hype. For some reason the health food set seems to think sodium is an enemy.  I have been trying to tell them that it is not a worry if you don’t have high blood pressure and can be dangerous if you’re athletic, particulaly in the here in the south where we sweat a whole lot.  Should I hold my ground, is this basically the case?    Thanks, John Hural  almost Ph.D. (immunology)

Response:

Hopefully, someone out there can give me some good advice.  I did the Walt Disney marathon Jan 5th.  I had trained for 16 weeks, ave. about 35-45 miles per week, with the traditional once a week long run from 12-20 miles.  I ran the race in 4:17, and felt relatively good.  Difficulty from mile 19 on, only walking about a quarter mile at 23, plus through the water stops to make sure I drank.     I drank 2 cups of water, and 1 cup of powerade (yuck) each stop (there were 20).  Plus a gel packet every 4 miles.  I was well hydrated to  start the race.  My problems started about 1 hour post race.  I vomited several times, and was feeling very confused.  Unfortunately, the medical tent let me escape, without fluids.  I went back to my hotel with family.  My family let me sleep for about an hour, and returned to check on me. Apparently I didn’t recognize them at this time.  (I don’t recall anything for the 24 hours following my return to hotel)      They took me to the hospital, where I was diagnosed with hyponatremic encephalopathy.  Na: 124 on entry.   Other abnormal blood parameters were ck-mb, and of course cpk.  they did a variety of tests, but that was the final diagnosis.  After a few bags of fluids and 24 hours of rest, I returned to the world of the living.         Can anyone help me figure out what I need to do to prevent this from occurring again?  I did Ironman Hawaii in 95 and didn’t have this kind of problem.  I am planning on Ironman Canada this year.  I can’t drink large amts of powerade or other carbonated junk.  Gatorade works great, but I don’t know what IMC drink will be.        Feel free to use medical terms, I am a veterinarian, but we don’t see this in animals!  They don’t usually over do it I guess!  Thanks in advance for any help. Gina  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hopefully, someone out there can give me some good advice.  I did the Walt Disney marathon Jan 5th.  I had trained for 16 weeks, ave. about 35-45 miles per week, with the traditional once a week long run from 12-20 miles.  I ran the race in 4:17, and felt relatively good.  Difficulty from mile 19 on, only walking about a quarter mile at 23, plus through the water stops to make sure I drank.     I drank 2 cups of water, and 1 cup of powerade (yuck) each stop (there were 20).  Plus a gel packet every 4 miles.  I was well hydrated to start the race.  My problems started about 1 hour post race.  I vomited several times, and was feeling very confused.  Unfortunately, the medical tent let me escape, without fluids.  I went back to my hotel with family.  My family let me sleep for about an hour, and returned to check on me. Apparently I didn’t recognize them at this time.  (I don’t recall anything for the 24 hours following my return to hotel)      They took me to the hospital, where I was diagnosed with hyponatremic encephalopathy.  Na: 124 on entry.   Other abnormal blood parameters were ck-mb, and of course cpk.  they did a variety of tests, but that was the final diagnosis.  After a few bags of fluids and 24 hours of rest, I returned to the world of the living.     Can anyone help me figure out what I need to do to prevent this from occurring again?

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Gina, but at least you apparently recovered quite rapidly. As for preventing this from happening in the future, the general answer is quite simple: you need to take in less water/more sodium during and/or after long races. You state that you drank 3 cups of fluid at each of 20 water stops – if these were full 8 oz cups and you didn’t spill a drop, that is over 14 L of fluid in 4.25 hours, or 3.3 L/hour – given your running pace, this is quite likely in excess of your rate of fluid loss (even in hot, humid Florida). Thus, even if you had been only drinking a sodium-containing sports drink (e.g., Gatorade), your plasma sodium levels would have probably declined. Although that’s the general solution, implementing it is somewhat more difficult. Sweating rate during exercise varies considerably from one person to another, as does sweat sodium content. Ideally, you would replace both water and sodium at exactly the rate at which they are lost. As many people will probably tell you, water loss can be monitored fairly well by weighing yourself before and after exercise. Determining exactly how much sodium you need, however, is much more difficult – as implied above, however, your first "line of defense" would be to choose a sodium-containing sports drink over plain water. Whether you need/would benefit from additional sodium intake can only be determined on an individual basis… At this point, let me emphasize another important role for sodium intake, and that is during post-exercise rehydration. Simply put, if you have incurred water and sodium deficits during exercise, it is important to replace both. Water intake in the absence of sodium intake results in a further dilution of sodium levels, resulting in diuresis (and possibly hyponatremia)…

Response:

Hopefully, someone out there can give me some good advice.  I did the Walt Disney marathon Jan 5th. <snip.    I drank 2 cups of water, and 1 cup of powerade (yuck) each stop (there were 20).  Plus a gel packet every 4 miles.  I was well hydrated to  start the race.  <snip     They took me to the hospital, where I was diagnosed with hyponatremic encephalopathy.  Na: 124 on entry. <snip    Can anyone help me figure out what I need to do to prevent this from occurring again?  I did Ironman Hawaii in 95 and didn’t have this kind of problem.  I am planning on Ironman Canada this year.  I can’t drink large amts of powerade or other carbonated junk.  Gatorade works great, but I don’t know what IMC drink will be.  

While not a Dr, I have experienced hypnotremia (no fun). The only thing I would ask is, ‘Did you have the same nutritional strategy in your long runs?’ Personally, when I got it – one of the attributing factors was taking excessive amounts of gel (which contained caffiene) Anyway, for an excellent medical discussion on hypnotremia & how to avoid, see: "Salt and the Endurance Athlete" http://riceinfo.rice.edu/~jenkins/sports/salt.html FWIW – I followed the advice in the article in IM #2 & had no problems! For general medical tent advice, see: http://riceinfo.rice.edu/~jenkins/medtent.1.html Also, All Sport ( a low Sodium beverage) will the beverage for IMC.

Response:

Hopefully, someone out there can give me some good advice. sodium = 124

Hyponatremia — what is it? Hyponatremia means a low concentration of sodium in the blood. When it occurs in triathletes, it usually happens during long or ultra-distance races in the heat but may occur anytime. It is estimated that approximately 30% of the finishers of the Hawaii Ironman are both hyponatremic and dehydrated. The longer the race, the greater the risk of hyponatremia. What causes it? The exact mechanisms are not fully understood and I won’t go into the complex physiologic pathways of sodium and water balance (more on this in PART II). The simplest answer is that lost sweat (salt and water) is replaced by ingested water (no salt). This dilutes the sodium in the bloodstream, and hyponatremia results. Longer races carry a greater risk of hyponatremia partly because of the total amount of sweat lost. During exercise in the heat, more salt is lost in sweat per hour than is usually replaced by food and fluids, including sports drinks.  Your body can tolerate a degree of imbalance for a short period of time, but it may decompensate if this continues for too long. Sweat contains between 2.25 – 3.4 grams of salt per liter, and the rate of perspiration in a long, hot race can easily average 1  liter per hour. So, for a 12 hour race, one could lose approximately 27 to 41 grams of salt. If the athlete replaces only the lost water and has minimal salt intake, hyponatremia can result. Medications and hyponatremia Aspirin, ibuprofen, and other non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agents interfere with kidney function and may contribute to the development of hyponatremia in triathletes. The same applies to acetaminophen (Tylenol). I have seen many athletes taking these drugs during Ironman races, and I strongly recommend against this practice. They won’t make you faster and may hurt you. Under tough conditions, your kidneys need to function at 100%. Other drugs that may contribute to hyponatremia are diuretics, narcotics, and certain psychiatric medications.   What are the symptoms of hyponatremia? The spectrum of symptoms can range from mild to severe and can include nausea, muscle cramps, disorientation, slurred speech, confusion, and inappropriate behavior. As it progresses, victims may experience seizures or coma, and death can occur. Severe hyponatremia is a true medical emergency. Treatment Minor symptoms, such as nausea and mild muscle cramps, can be treated by eating salty foods and hydrating with a sodium containing sports drink. More severe symptoms require treatment by qualified medical personnel. If you think you are suffering from hyponatremia or are unsure, seek medical attention immediately. Recommendations There are no clear cut guidelines, and recommendations need to be individualized for each triathlete. Some authorities recommend drinking less water to rebalance sodium and water intake. However, given the risk of dehydration and heat injury, this is not a practical recommendation. To reiterate, all of the hyponatremic athletes in the Hawaii Ironman were also dehydrated. Others recommend increasing salt intake, and this seems more prudent. By ingesting more sodium, hydration with water is balanced and dilution of blood sodium does not occur. Relative importance for different length races            less than 1 hr        1 – 3 hrs          3  hrs water             -/+                +                 + carbohydrate       –                 +                 + salt               –                -/+                +    It cannot be stressed enough that you have got to know what your needs are prior to race day. Rehearse your hydration, feeding, and salt strategy during your training sessions. There are so many variations between individuals that there is no single right answer. Know what your body’s’ needs are.

Question:

Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Organization: Stanford University Brad Jaeger:  In response to your questions regarding my candidacy for th=

e Tri Fed Board, here is my response: [snip]  I am opposed to drafting on the bike in all circumstances for age = group competition.  I think [snip]    Ok. You’ve answered half of the question. Now, how do intend to represe= nt the (predominant) view of those age group triathletes (and pro’s as wel= l if Traci Riccitello’s most enlightening recent post was any indication) = that bike drafting would be a negative influence on the sport for the part= icipants, if not (debatably) for it’s TV marketability?    How do you feel about pro’s and amateurs competing at the same venue on=  the same day, yet in differing formats? Will this encourage participation=  when results are no longer comparable between formats? Do you intend to a= sk us what we think? Would you intend to represent the views of the amateu= rs, or would you expect us to trust you to know what’s best for us?    I really appreciate your straightforward replies to Brad’s questions, a= nd I hope you won’t take all this grilling too personally. I think *anyone= * who bravely sticks out his/her neck into this arena is going to feel lot= s of pent up breeze. Regards, Kurian Davis

Response:

GOOD QUESTION: I personally feel that if drafting in professional races increases awareness by the general public in the sport…then it is good for the sport.  BUT I ALSO FEEL that if you elect me, I am obligated to represent you and your wishes, NOT MY OWN AGENDA. OBVIOUSLY I am listening to what you guys have to say… John Duke – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brad Jaeger:  In response to your questions regarding my candidacy for th= e Tri Fed Board, here is my response: [snip]  I am opposed to drafting on the bike in all circumstances for age = group competition.  I think [snip]   Ok. You’ve answered half of the question. Now, how do intend to represe= nt the (predominant) view of those age group triathletes (and pro’s as wel= l if Traci Riccitello’s most enlightening recent post was any indication) = that bike drafting would be a negative influence on the sport for the part= icipants, if not (debatably) for it’s TV marketability?   How do you feel about pro’s and amateurs competing at the same venue on= the same day, yet in differing formats? Will this encourage participation= when results are no longer comparable between formats? Do you intend to a= sk us what we think? Would you intend to represent the views of the amateu= rs, or would you expect us to trust you to know what’s best for us?   I really appreciate your straightforward replies to Brad’s questions, a= nd I hope you won’t take all this grilling too personally. I think *anyone= * who bravely sticks out his/her neck into this arena is going to feel lot= s of pent up breeze. Regards, Kurian Davis

Response:

Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Organization: CTSNET GOOD QUESTION: I personally feel that if drafting in professional races increases awareness by  the general public in the sport…then it is good for the sport.  BUT I ALSO FEEL that if you elect me, I am obligated to represent you and your wishes, NOT MY O WN AGENDA. OBVIOUSLY I am listening to what you guys have to say… John Duke – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brad Jaeger:  In response to your questions regarding my candidacy for th= e Tri Fed Board, here is my response: [snip]  I am opposed to drafting on the bike in all circumstances for age = group competition.  I think [snip]   Ok. You’ve answered half of the question. Now, how do intend to represe= nt the (predominant) view of those age group triathletes (and pro’s as wel= l if Traci Riccitello’s most enlightening recent post was any indication) = that bike drafting would be a negative influence on the sport for the part= icipants, if not (debatably) for it’s TV marketability?   How do you feel about pro’s and amateurs competing at the same venue on= the same day, yet in differing formats? Will this encourage participation= when results are no longer comparable between formats? Do you intend to a= sk us what we think? Would you intend to represent the views of the amateu= rs, or would you expect us to trust you to know what’s best for us?   I really appreciate your straightforward replies to Brad’s questions, a= nd I hope you won’t take all this grilling too personally. I think *anyone= * who bravely sticks out his/her neck into this arena is going to feel lot= s of pent up breeze. Regards, Kurian Davis

Response:

Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon Organization: Stanford University  Why are you running, how old are you, ravings deleted… I am not a great fan of TriFed, but I think there is a need of a  TriFed sort of organization.  Sure these questions are tough, but  shouldn’t they be answered?  I’ll  take the heat.  Brad Jaeger =20  Yes,  everyone has a right to respond to posts here, but you, Brad Jaeg=

er?  For a guy who=20 doesn’t support or sanction with TriFed and yet makes his money from the =

sport, why  should you=20 give a rats nose who runs for office in our organization. If it were also an organization that you supported, you might have room t=

o talk. =20 By the way, these same questions, along with a few well placed others cou= ld be asked of=20 you?  Is your house in order? |      Ray Plotecia            | |      Image Control           |

Uhhh, waitaminnit, Ray. I don’t do anything but race. At Tri-Fed events an= d a few non Tri-Fed. I have nothing against Tri-Fed other than their lack = of leadership in the past in representing what seems to be the prevailing = view of the athletes, pro and amateur, regarding the future direction of t= he sport. However , if I want to race I’m compelled to support Tri-Fed fin= ancially. Other than that, I guess I’m not a prolific supporter of Tri-Fed=  either. (Though I like to think I take a constructive approach to disagre= eing with them.) ITU doesn’t support Tri-Fed or apparently respect whateve= r resistance they’ve offered on the drafting issue. They make plenty of mo= ney from the sport, judging by all the ESPN airings. If a race director wh= o doesn’t use Tri-Fed asks a Tri-Fed candidate about his positions, might = it not be that he’s considering a change of board personnel a potential in= centive to back the guy? Or some other candidate for that matter? Wouldn’t=  he have to join to cast a vote? If Mr.Jaeger  doesn’t give a #%$* about T= ri-Fed, why bother asking a candidate anything? Let alone the laundry list=  he gave.=20    As far as I’m concerned, most of his questions were quite pointed and g= ood food for thought for the rest of us. Me at least.    So I gotta ask, where’s the beef? Ask Brad whatever you think you shoul= d, but IMO his "queries" were right on target. Kurian Davis

Response:

Thank you for your answer.  After years of being in this sport myself, it’s refreshing to hear a very honest answer to questions.  I will suggest that people give you their support (I hope this is a good thing) and I am willing to work with TriFed and you to improve the sport throughout the country.

Response:

..violent attack censored… You had better calm down before you enter another post.  I personally think that this thread is going nowhere until you begin to write and think like an adult. By the way, yes I was on a Tri-Maryland team that did nothing for me or the Columbia Area Triathletes it said it would support.   I took a uniform that was paid for by Princeton Sports not you and I wore it to every race that year.  I even have a picture of myself crossing the finish line at IRONMAN Hawaii in it.   Get your facts straight.  Learn how much others have done for the sport, and come back to r.s.t. as a person. |       Ray Plotecia            | |       Image Control           |

Response:

For your information, Ray Plotecia, was on a Tri-Maryland racing team, took a uniform that TM paid for, but of course never wore it.  So Ray, if you’re such a tough guy, why don’t you show up in your skirt and defend yourself-  let’s see how tough you are.   Your call, baby.

Response:

Just for the heck of it Ray, (second post) why didn’t you respond to my e-mail directly back to you on why I have no interest in TriFed or Mid Atlantic, national or whatever.   When you put in the effort and time that I have to keep the sport going, then you can talk.  Until  then SHUT UP. You know my phone number and where TM races are, why don’t you show up and talk in person instead of hiding behind these posts.  Sorry folks, for this airing of dirty laundry, but this is why I got off rst 6 months ago. Being attacked and then the attackers not having the guts to confront me in person.

Response:

Ray, you’re not worth the effort.

Response:

 Why are you running, how old are you, ravings deleted… I am not a great fan of TriFed, but I think there is a need of a  TriFed sort of organization.  Sure these questions are tough, but  shouldn’t they be answered?  I’ll  take the heat.  Brad Jaeger =20  Yes,  everyone has a right to respond to posts here, but you, Brad Jaeg=

er?  For a guy who=20 doesn’t support or sanction with TriFed and yet makes his money from the =

sport, why  should you=20 give a rats nose who runs for office in our organization. If it were also an organization that you supported, you might have room t=

o talk. =20 By the way, these same questions, along with a few well placed others cou= ld be asked of=20 you?  Is your house in order? |      Ray Plotecia            | |      Image Control           |

Uhhh, waitaminnit, Ray. I don’t do anything but race. At Tri-Fed events an= d a few non Tri-Fed. I have nothing against Tri-Fed other than their lack = of leadership in the past in representing what seems to be the prevailing = view of the athletes, pro and amateur, regarding the future direction of t= he sport. However , if I want to race I’m compelled to support Tri-Fed fin= ancially. Other than that, I guess I’m not a prolific supporter of Tri-Fed=  either. (Though I like to think I take a constructive approach to disagre= eing with them.) ITU doesn’t support Tri-Fed or apparently respect whateve= r resistance they’ve offered on the drafting issue. They make plenty of mo= ney from the sport, judging by all the ESPN airings. If a race director wh= o doesn’t use Tri-Fed asks a Tri-Fed candidate about his positions, might = it not be that he’s considering a change of board personnel a potential in= centive to back the guy? Or some other candidate for that matter? Wouldn’t=  he have to join to cast a vote? If Mr.Jaeger  doesn’t give a #%$* about T= ri-Fed, why bother asking a candidate anything? Let alone the laundry list=  he gave.=20    As far as I’m concerned, most of his questions were quite pointed and g= ood food for thought for the rest of us. Me at least.    So I gotta ask, where’s the beef? Ask Brad whatever you think you shoul= d, but IMO his "queries" were right on target. Kurian Davis

Response:

Brad Jaeger:  In response to your questions regarding my candidacy for th=

e Tri Fed Board, here is my response: [snip]  I am opposed to drafting on the bike in all circumstances for age = group competition.  I think [snip]    Ok. You’ve answered half of the question. Now, how do intend to represe= nt the (predominant) view of those age group triathletes (and pro’s as wel= l if Traci Riccitello’s most enlightening recent post was any indication) = that bike drafting would be a negative influence on the sport for the part= icipants, if not (debatably) for it’s TV marketability?    How do you feel about pro’s and amateurs competing at the same venue on=  the same day, yet in differing formats? Will this encourage participation=  when results are no longer comparable between formats? Do you intend to a= sk us what we think? Would you intend to represent the views of the amateu= rs, or would you expect us to trust you to know what’s best for us?    I really appreciate your straightforward replies to Brad’s questions, a= nd I hope you won’t take all this grilling too personally. I think *anyone= * who bravely sticks out his/her neck into this arena is going to feel lot= s of pent up breeze. Regards, Kurian Davis

Response:

Brad Jaeger:  In response to your questions regarding my candidacy for the Tri Fed Board, here is my response: WHY AM I RUNNING? I am running for the Board because I truly care about  this sport.  I have been involved since 1982 and now have the unique pleasure of making my living in triathlon.  I have taken from the sport (both through the satisfaction of competition and through earning a living) and believe I should put something back. I also believe TriFed needs to ensure the sport continues to grow in the participatory ranks (not just the Olympic movement) and want to do my best to make sure that happens. HOW OLD AM I? I am 44 years old. MY VIEW ON DRAFTING IN ALL THREE DISCIPLINES? In respect to drafting in the swim, I feel although there is a significant advantage, it would be impossible to mandate a NO DRAFTING rule unless you wanted to break the event up into hundreds of waves.  I am opposed to drafting on the bike in all circumstances for age group competition.  I think NO DRAFTING on the run would be a stupid rule, as the benefits are negligible. CAN TRIFED EVENTS AND NON-TRIFED EVENTS CO-EXIST?  Of course.  Why not?  All events are good for the exposure and growth of the sport and some races are so small and so local that a Tri-Fed sanction would be unnecessary. Secondly, it is TriFed’s job to do offer enough benefits to race directors that they want to be sanctioned.  Mandatory sanction would be like communism and I’m no commie. WHAT DO I KNOW ABOUT TRIFED’S HISTORY AND HOW CAN I IMPROVE OR GROW ON WHAT THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE?  I have lived TriFed’s history.  From the time TriFed was formed as the USTA to the present, I have been involved in the sport and to this day I still work out with one of the association’s founders.  I believe I can help improve the association by listening to the membership.  The backbone of the membership is the age group competitor…not the elites/junior Olympians/etc.  Although this pinnacle of the sport garners the bulk of the media attention, they have organizations looking out I guess my last answer sort of answers your next question regarding Pros/vs Amateurs, but in respect to :  "How can the Olympics and the Mike Piggs of the world help the local race in Iowa," I have plenty to say.  If the general public is to become aware of our sport it will be through Triathlon’s Involvement in the Olympics and though Mark Allen, Paula Newby-Fraser or Mike Pigg winning a bunch of dough at a big race on TV.  Big Stars and Big Events with Big Dollars will help expose the sport to new people who will want to participate in triathlons and hopefully some of them will be from Iowa.  As the sport grows and companies have more and more opportunities to make profit from the sport, more money will come in and that will help race directors everywhere put on more and better races with lower entry fees.  For example, if there was no Alberto Salazar, Bill Rogers, John Hancock and Mercedes, the New York City Marathon would still be five laps around Central Park and 25,000 amateurs would not have the opportunity to run through five boroughs in what is probably the greatest single spectacle in participatory endurance sports. In respect to how I can help make it happen…Well, I believe that I have a unique view of the triathlon world as both a long time age group competitor and a businessman.  I have a pretty good understanding of the complexities of the sport and believe that my interest is solely in the growth and survival of triathlons in the United States.  I have no political motive other than this. Your final question is, "What do I think will qualify as a valid election?"  Well, my friend, that is up to you and the other voting members of TriFed.  As with most membership associations, apathy is a big problem. TriFed cannot call every member and ask them to vote.  If they wait until 51-percent of the membership votes, the board may never change and I am afraid that would be much worse than an election that does not represent a true majority.  I believe the solution to this problem lies directly in your hands.  If you care as much as you obviously do, call each and every one of your friends who are members and tell them how important their vote is.

Response:

 Why are you running, how old are you,

ravings deleted…  I am not a great fan of TriFed, but I think there is a need of a  TriFed sort of organization.  Sure these questions are tough, but  shouldn’t they be answered?  I’ll  take the heat.  Brad Jaeger

  Yes,  everyone has a right to respond to posts here, but you, Brad Jaeger?  For a guy who doesn’t support or sanction with TriFed and yet makes his money from the sport, why  should you give a rats nose who runs for office in our organization. If it were also an organization that you supported, you might have room to talk.   Now don’t get off on your problems with TriFed and how they screwed you.  Everybody screws you, Brad.  Does that pattern bother you? Don’t bother to send me E-mail.  Hang it out right here.  Call your post "Dirty laundry" so we’ll know what it is.  Not that it matters. By the way, these same questions, along with a few well placed others could be asked of you?  Is your house in order? |       Ray Plotecia            | |       Image Control           |

Response:

To all triathletes. John Duke is a great person and very well suited to be on the Tri Fed board. His concerns are for the age group triathlete and he is very familiar with the issues concerning the sport. Whether he likes drafting or not is not as important as whether or not he will make an informed decision that will make the sport more enjoyable, safe, and popular. John Duke is the type of person who will do his best job to look after the best interest of the age group triathlete. He is sure to get my vote and I hope he gets yours. Kansas City

Response:

Why are you running, how old are you, have you organized events, what’s your view on drafting (all three disciples), can TFed and non-TriFed events co-exist.  What do you know about TriFed’s history and how can you improve or grow on what they have already done.  What do you think about TriFed on the subject of pros vs. amateurs?  Are they working towards making local races happen?  Olympic?  TFed is spending a lot of time making this a reality, great news for the Mike Piggs of the world, but how can it help the local race in Iowa?  If it can, how and how can you make sure it will happen.  Final question, what do you think will qualify as a valid election?  50%, 25% 10% or 3 Tri Fed members voting.  Do you think that there should be a quorum of TriFed members before an election is valid?  I am not a great fan of TriFed, but I think there is a need of a TriFed sort of organization.  Sure these questions are tough, but shouldn’t they be answered?  I’ll  take the heat. Brad Jaeger

Response:

Dear Triathletes My name is John Duke and I am running for the position of director to the Tri Fed Board in the Western Region.  I have posted this on rec.sport.triathlon because I can’t think of a  better arena to tell you, the active participant in the sport, who I am and why I am running. I have been a triathlete since 1982.  My first triathlon was the 1st Bud Light Race ever held. My second triathlon was Ironman.  Over the next twelve years I  participated in Hawaii eight times, and competed in a couple hundred events around the world.  Although I placed in my age group from time to time, I was never an exceptional athlete and possessed average, at the best, talent. I competed because of my love for the sport. Today I am extraordinarily fortunate to make my living solely from this sport.  I am partners with Paula Newby-Fraser and John Howard in the Multi Sport School of Champions Triathlon Camps and I am a Multisport consultant to Reebok International. Because of my business involvement in triathlon, I have become acutely aware that the age grouper is the backbone of the sport.  Understandably  elite athletes and future olympic hopefuls should be of concern to Tri Fed, as the sports higher profile will expose us to a broader group of people and help us grow.  My concern is that the age group triathlete not get lost in the shuffle and the proper attention be paid to the guy who makes this all possible.  It is for this reason I have chosen to run for the Board of Directors. If elected, I promise to listen to your comments, and present your concerns to the Board. I have no agenda other than keeping the sport viable, so I can continue to enjoy it both as a participant and a businessman.  Since my business is strictly predicated upon the welfare of you, the age group triathlete, I am beholden to you and will endeavor to represent you to the best of my ability. I would appreciate your comments, as well as your vote. Thank you, John Duke

Response:

99% of Tri-Fed Members are against drafting???? I would like to know where you got this statistic.  Tom Ziebart – Gatorade Triathlon Series-   8 Draft-legal races so far this season and only 12 complaints from the over 2,500 participants.   Tom Ziebart – Exclusive Sports Marketing

Response:

TOM — why don’t you do a poll of your athletes *  how many of your 2500 are multi-event competitors? *  how many of your 2500 are first timers or once-a-year family weekend folks who wouldn’t know if they were drafting or not? *  do you offer prize money in this drafting format, or traditional trophies?  Can you offer a comparison on identical courses from non-drafting years of your event — including the split times on the bike? How about a report of any medical history ?? more or less accidents?? this kind of information is what is being asked of Les McDonald from his "test" races and would help the rest of the Tri community to be betetr informed. THANKS!  Gail Moore

Response:

99% of Tri-Fed Members are against drafting???? I would like to know where you got this statistic.  Tom Ziebart – Gatorade Triathlon Series-   8 Draft-legal races so far this season and only 12 complaints from the over 2,500 participants.   Tom Ziebart – Exclusive Sports Marketing

Most of them from me – but seriously Tom, you also fail to mention that there probably have only been 25 or so elite competitors, the only ones theoretically allowed to draft. — <“`; <“`; <“`; <“`; <“`; <“`; <“`; <“`;<~

Todd N. Kenyon: fishdoctor, trigeek, geekgeek, etc. Key Biscayne, FL ~;

Question:

I sincerely apologize to this group for the inappropriate posting  yesterday. I was very excited about the shared information and errored in thinking all would welcome it. I do NOT sell the product.   rere is something I hope the group can use: .I am not an expert on these matters, but an old friend of mine has just sent me some very interesting information about what has been going on. He has been working down in Texas with a company that has just produced

I AM GETTING REALLY ANGRY WITH ALL THESE "NET POLICE"!!!!!! This posting was 100% ok! Would the people who feel it is their duty to flame any posting that just might have something to do with commercial ventures PLEASE STOP!?!?!? This posting never tried to sell anybody anything.  Even if it did the internet is open to this kind of thing.  Deal with it. If we, in rec.sport.triathlon, want to create a "bylaw" that discourages "posting for money" then we can do that.  Until then people are free to post what they want. —    LSC (aka Larry Chapman)    (303) 229-3117

Response:

I sincerely apologize to this group for the inappropriate posting  yesterday. I was very excited about the shared information and errored in thinking all would welcome it. I do NOT sell the product.   rere is something I hope the group can use:

.I am not an expert on these matters, but an old friend of mine has just – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -sent me some very interesting information about what has been going on. He has been working down in Texas with a company that has just produced

Response:

| | I AM GETTING REALLY ANGRY WITH ALL THESE "NET POLICE"!!!!!! | | This posting was 100% ok! | | Would the people who feel it is their duty to flame any posting that just | might have something to do with commercial ventures PLEASE STOP!?!?!? | | This posting never tried to sell anybody anything.  Even if it did the | internet is open to this kind of thing.  Deal with it. | | If we, in rec.sport.triathlon, want to create a "bylaw" that discourages | "posting for money" then we can do that.  Until then people are free to | post what they want. The original post, as well as the apology was posted to several groups. So it doesn’t necessarily follow that anyone who reads this group got on John’s case. — Ontario Telepresence Project, 2670 Queensview Dr., Ottawa, ON, K2B 8K1, CANADA

Response: