Question:

I’m selling this very aero aluminium 56cm/medium bike for a great price.  It comes with full dura-ace components and extra tubes and tires.  Its mechanic owned and raced for about 2 years now, but its still in really good condition. I also have a pair of Zipp 404 tubular race wheels to sell with the bike or seperately.  They have tires on them plus I have two brand new spares as extras. I’m selling the bike alone for $1000 and the wheels alone for $500. If you buy the two together I will sell them for $1400. for more information and for a picture of the bike.  This is a great deal and if you do the research you’ll see. Happy training Ryan PS. I’m based out of Boulder, Colorado

Response:

Where are you getting the 56cm measurement? Seems a little odd. Tim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m selling this very aero aluminium 56cm/medium bike for a great price.  It comes with full dura-ace components and extra tubes and tires.  Its mechanic owned and raced for about 2 years now, but its still in really good condition. I also have a pair of Zipp 404 tubular race wheels to sell with the bike or seperately.  They have tires on them plus I have two brand new spares as extras. I’m selling the bike alone for $1000 and the wheels alone for $500. If you buy the two together I will sell them for $1400. for more information and for a picture of the bike.  This is a great deal and if you do the research you’ll see. Happy training Ryan PS. I’m based out of Boulder, Colorado

Response:

Are the wheels 650c or 700c?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m selling this very aero aluminium 56cm/medium bike for a great price.  It comes with full dura-ace components and extra tubes and tires.  Its mechanic owned and raced for about 2 years now, but its still in really good condition. I also have a pair of Zipp 404 tubular race wheels to sell with the bike or seperately.  They have tires on them plus I have two brand new spares as extras. I’m selling the bike alone for $1000 and the wheels alone for $500. If you buy the two together I will sell them for $1400. for more information and for a picture of the bike.  This is a great deal and if you do the research you’ll see. Happy training Ryan PS. I’m based out of Boulder, Colorado

Response:

Question:

From the article: “Every lawyer we talked to told us that this case is a sure bet. We can’t lose.” 1.    There is no such thing. 2.    Truth is a defense.

Yes indeed, it’s very risky to sue someone for slander in a civil court who has accused you of something for which there is strong evidence. I bet most lawyers would actually advise that this case is almost a sure bet. We can’t win. Barry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the article: “Every lawyer we talked to told us that this case is a sure bet. We can’t lose.” 1.    There is no such thing. 2.    Truth is a defense. Yes indeed, it’s very risky to sue someone for slander in a civil court who has accused you of something for which there is strong evidence. I bet most lawyers would actually advise that this case is almost a sure bet. We can’t win. Barry

What the lawyer meant was that *he* couldn’t lose. He recognized it as a cash cow of endless appeals. LOL Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman, Model Railroader, Gamer

Response:

From the article: “Every lawyer we talked to told us that this case is a sure bet. We can’t lose.” 1.    There is no such thing. 2.    Truth is a defense. dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Russian athletics considering suing Szabo MOSCOW, Aug 23 (Reuters) – The Russian athletics federation is considering legal action against Gabriela Szabo and her manager in the row over world 5,000 metres champion Olga Yegorova and the performance-enhancing erythropoietin (EPO). Yegorova tested positive for EPO at the Paris Golden League meeting in July and was initially suspended from the world championships in Edmonton earlier this month, but was later cleared to compete because the test did not conform to International Olympic Committee (IOC) standards. More… http://sports.yahoo.com/m/sa/news/reuters/20010823/reu-yegorova.html Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

Response:

Russian athletics considering suing Szabo MOSCOW, Aug 23 (Reuters) – The Russian athletics federation is considering legal action against Gabriela Szabo and her manager in the row over world 5,000 metres champion Olga Yegorova and the performance-enhancing erythropoietin (EPO). Yegorova tested positive for EPO at the Paris Golden League meeting in July and was initially suspended from the world championships in Edmonton earlier this month, but was later cleared to compete because the test did not conform to International Olympic Committee (IOC) standards. More… http://sports.yahoo.com/m/sa/news/reuters/20010823/reu-yegorova.html Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

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Question:

Hi, Has anyone heard or seen anything about the race location being moved from Camp Pendelton for the 2001 event? Thanks in advance… Wade

Wade,   Nope, as far as I know there is no change over last year other than a swim that will be 2.4 miles versus 2.4 nautical miles. You can check out the web site at http://www.ironmancalifornia.com B.Oliver (I’ll be there again!) http://members.aol.com/triathltb/index.html

Response:

Check out http://www.latriclub.com/reading/imsb.pdf for a copy of a newspaper article with more details. JP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There was a rumor on the IM Cal Comments Page that the race director was in Santa Barbara feeling out the city about moving the race in the future. I think there was also a newspaper article. clm in sf Hi, Has anyone heard or seen anything about the race location being moved from Camp Pendelton for the 2001 event? Thanks in advance… Wade Wade,   Nope, as far as I know there is no change over last year other than a swim that will be 2.4 miles versus 2.4 nautical miles. Before you buy.

Response:

There was a rumor on the IM Cal Comments Page that the race director was in Santa Barbara feeling out the city about moving the race in the future. I think there was also a newspaper article. clm in sf Hi, Has anyone heard or seen anything about the race location being moved from Camp Pendelton for the 2001 event? Thanks in advance… Wade Wade,   Nope, as far as I know there is no change over last year other than a swim that will be 2.4 miles versus 2.4 nautical miles.

Before you buy.

Response:

Hi, Has anyone heard or seen anything about the race location being moved from Camp Pendelton for the 2001 event? Thanks in advance… Wade

Response:

You are probably talking about a new ’site’ as in web site announced on their web page called "Ironman Motivations" at <  http://www.ironmanflorida.com/motivation.htm Here is what they say about it, "Ironman Motivations is the only program of its kind in the world. It was developed with the intention of taking corporate teams behind the scenes at an Ironman Triathlon. By working an aid station and hanging medals on the finishing athletes, team members will experience, first hand, the immense challenges these athletes overcome in order to reach their goal of becoming an Ironman. Ironman Motivations takes you as close to an Ironman as you can get, without having to do the race!" I do not think there is a course change planned…could be wrong. Randy

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Question:

HA! And my complaint, as one of the little people, is that they never have small t-shirts. Always tons of larges, and usually nothing else. Only thing my IMUSA t-shirt is good for is a nite shirt for my honey. I would wear that friggin’ shirt every day otherwise. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My only complaint is that, as a Clydesdale, most races don’t have XXL shirts. I always look like the proverbial 10 pounds of "poop" in a 5 pound sack.

Response:

I love getting t-shirts.  It’s part of the whole thing.  As a BOP’er I know I won’t be getting a trophy (unless they start giving them out for finishing last), so it’s nice to have some memento of the event.  Plus I need them as proof to my old college friends (who knew me then and what a lazy bum I was) that I actually am doing tri’s and not just lying about the whole thing. My only complaint is that, as a Clydesdale, most races don’t have XXL shirts. I always look like the proverbial 10 pounds of "poop" in a 5 pound sack.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I loved this the first two years. But now each time I get a new one, I have to toss an old one so they fit on my tee-shirt shelf.  (It’s even getting harder to give them away–so 15 of the past two years worth went to Goodwill.)         You people just have to learn the art of being a pack rat.  I keep all my race tees, and that way I only have to wash a load of t-shirts once a month (it helps to have a washer with a 3 cu. ft. capacity.)  Don’t even ask about socks and undies.  Accumulate, accumulate, accumulate.  How can some of you have 6 bikes and only 10 t-shirts?         T-shirts don’t add that much to a race fee, probably a few dollars at most.  If an RD is worried about getting stuck with extras, order enough for the pre-registered, and the customary $5 late registration fee will cover the set up charges for another run and postage to mail them out after the race. It’s nice to have something tangible to keep after the race, and if I do enough races, maybe I’ll only have to wash t-shirts twice a year! (Where can I buy one of those big laundromat machines?)

That’s what I’m screamin’!

Response:

My only complaint is that, as a Clydesdale, most races don’t have XXL shirts. I always look like the proverbial 10 pounds of "poop" in a 5 pound sack.

Wow–I have the opposite problem.  With big baggy T-shirts being the style these days, my problem is that a lot of races don’t have shirts in medium or small.  A large T-shirt fits me like a dress and I usually end up throwing them out.   I don’t understand T-shirt sizing.  10 years ago I was a large, for the last 5 years I have been medium, and now I’m a small more often than not.  And my body has stayed exactly the same size over the course of the last ten years.  Are the "Generation Xers" to blame for making big baggy clothing stylish?  (Don’t even get me started on the topic of trying to find jeans that fit!) –Steve Gregg

Response:

I got a coolmax Saucony baseball hat at the Escape in June.  Great item, I use it twice a week minimum.  The shirt is also great.  However, I do find that the "bigger" the race the better the shirt.  Not surprising, there also seems to be a strong correlation with race fees. gordo

Response:

When soliciting event sponsors, the t-shirt placement is the one tangible and "permanent" benefit that an RD can offer.  Sponsorship could decline if t-shirts weren’t printed. Glenn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With all the very appropriate, timely talk here lately about costs, RD, governing bodies, etc., I hope everybody doesn’t mind if I bring up another old issue: do we really want to pay the extra money for race tees?  Over the past few years, after listening to triathletes rightfully gripe about steeper entry fees, the odd race here and there offers a cheaper no-shirt option, but not many.  And since a director has to figure up the shirt costs, and their effect on the entry fee, well in advance, something has to give somewhere — either s/he estimates correctly the number of shirts desired, sells them all, and everybody’s happy; or doesn’t sell all that are printed, so the cost gets transferred to the all participants anyway; or doesn’t print enough, and the people who wanted one are unhappy. Frankly, if I want to wear an article of clothing to identify myself as a triathlete, I’ll just buy some commercially available item.  Or get a tattoo, wear an earring, buy a license-plate frame, bumper sticker, etc.  Or just walk around in swim briefs, shaved to the skin. Sure, a nice, colorful, creatively designed and well-printed shirt is a cool thing to have, but do we expect one because we really want it, or just because we figure, "well, for the entry fee I’m paying, by god, they’d better be handing out cashmere sweaters."  Personally, I’d rather an RD take all the shirt money and either apply it to cheaper fees so I can do more races (although, realistically, since just a few bucks one way or the other probably won’t determine whether I do an event or not, that actually means I can pony up and race less begrudgingly), or use the money for other things such as a kick-ass crew of draft-busters and/or a better post-race party. Two cents, take it or leave it. David "Sometimes there’s so much beauty in the world, I feel like I can’t take it." Ricky (Wes Bentley), in the upcoming "American Beauty" http://www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/8374

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

T-Shirts are great for those of us who are lucky enough to regularly indulgge in mind blowing 5 times a day sex!

Response:

When soliciting event sponsors, the t-shirt placement is the one tangible and "permanent" benefit that an RD can offer.  Sponsorship could decline if t-shirts weren’t printed. Glenn

Now, that’s why I like this NG.  You put something sincere out there, and you’re pretty likely not only to start a discussion but learn something in the process.   I didn’t realize sponsors considered the shirt that important of a medium, thinking they’d be more interested in things such as finish-line banners in case the event gets TV or print photo-coverage, or maybe business flyers for the race packet.  After all, most sponsors’ logos go on the back of the shirt to share space with their co-sponsors, — the more, the smaller the space — unless it’s a title sponsor such as CFT’s "Gooding’s" series. I also didn’t realize how much others value the shirts.  I tend simply to grab whatever is clean and throw it on; while working at a bike shop a few years back, I thoroughly hacked off the owner by coming in wearing a race tee that bore the logo of another shop — I’d never even noticed it. So — does that mean there’s no practical way race fees can be reduced? David "Sometimes there’s so much beauty in the world, I feel like I can’t take it."   Ricky (Wes Bentley), in the upcoming "American Beauty" http://www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/8374

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I’m thinking about what momento to give competitors in the Edinburgh New Years Day triathlon. Anybody had any unusual finishing momento’s that they thought were good? Joel — Joel Sylvester Longest Day ‘98 12:10:33 Edinburgh Triathletes: www.edintri.u-net.com

Response:

I loved this the first two years. But now each time I get a new one, I have to toss an old one so they fit on my tee-shirt shelf.  (It’s even getting harder to give them away–so 15 of the past two years worth went to Goodwill.)

        You people just have to learn the art of being a pack rat.  I keep all my race tees, and that way I only have to wash a load of t-shirts once a month (it helps to have a washer with a 3 cu. ft. capacity.)  Don’t even ask about socks and undies.  Accumulate, accumulate, accumulate.  How can some of you have 6 bikes and only 10 t-shirts?         T-shirts don’t add that much to a race fee, probably a few dollars at most.  If an RD is worried about getting stuck with extras, order enough for the pre-registered, and the customary $5 late registration fee will cover the set up charges for another run and postage to mail them out after the race. It’s nice to have something tangible to keep after the race, and if I do enough races, maybe I’ll only have to wash t-shirts twice a year! (Where can I buy one of those big laundromat machines?)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but I always loved getting race tees to work out in, work around the house in, etc. I loved this the first two years. But now each time I get a new one, I have to toss an old one so they fit on my tee-shirt shelf.  (It’s even getting harder to give them away–so 15 of the past two years worth went to Goodwill.) Jeff Ginn                                          o                      __o            </_                      <           __/   /o_           (()) (())           / One idea is what my mom does for people in the family (We have a lot of road runners in the family) is make a memory quilt. You take 15-20 tshirts, cut out the logo, sew them to squares, then make a quilt out of it. I have two already! John "Ad astra per aspera" "A rough road leads to the stars"

I’m planning to do this soon with my college theater shirts, and sweatshirts from shooting events. I’ve got a pattern, and if anyone’s interested, I can see if I can track down the address to order it. A decent sewer could probably do without the pattern, but I need help! –Amy Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

T-Shirts are great for those of us who are lucky enough to regularly indulgge in mind blowing 5 times a day sex!

 Just a tad off-topic, don’t you think?   But since I’ve gone here, does Freak indulgge in mind blowing five times a day or does Freak indulgge in sex five times a day? If the latter, how many mind blowings are involved? If the former, how much sex does Freak have?  And just where does the t-shirt fit in?  Inquiring minds want to know. awp in sd IMCA inaugural remove spamless to e-mail

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To Borrow a word from "Fiddler on the Roof" – Tradition! The sport has found it’s only semi-permanent bill board for sponsors. Concider the tradition of T-Shirts to be a way to keep your costs down (not an added cost).  Some think commercials on TV are a nuisants and others see them as a viable way to get TV without paying additional cost (vis a vis-Cable Pay per View).  Unfortunately, the no T-Shirt approach would not have the lower cost and lack of nuisance you anticipate. Joe "done the RD & sponsorship thing" Moya – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With all the very appropriate, timely talk here lately about costs, RD, governing bodies, etc., I hope everybody doesn’t mind if I bring up another old issue: do we really want to pay the extra money for race tees?  Over the past few years, after listening to triathletes rightfully gripe about steeper entry fees, the odd race here and there offers a cheaper no-shirt option, but not many.  And since a director has to figure up the shirt costs, and their effect on the entry fee, well in advance, something has to give somewhere — either s/he estimates correctly the number of shirts desired, sells them all, and everybody’s happy; or doesn’t sell all that are printed, so the cost gets transferred to the all participants anyway; or doesn’t print enough, and the people who wanted one are unhappy. Frankly, if I want to wear an article of clothing to identify myself as a triathlete, I’ll just buy some commercially available item.  Or get a tattoo, wear an earring, buy a license-plate frame, bumper sticker, etc.  Or just walk around in swim briefs, shaved to the skin. Sure, a nice, colorful, creatively designed and well-printed shirt is a cool thing to have, but do we expect one because we really want it, or just because we figure, "well, for the entry fee I’m paying, by god, they’d better be handing out cashmere sweaters."  Personally, I’d rather an RD take all the shirt money and either apply it to cheaper fees so I can do more races (although, realistically, since just a few bucks one way or the other probably won’t determine whether I do an event or not, that actually means I can pony up and race less begrudgingly), or use the money for other things such as a kick-ass crew of draft-busters and/or a better post-race party. Two cents, take it or leave it. David "Sometimes there’s so much beauty in the world, I feel like I can’t take it." Ricky (Wes Bentley), in the upcoming "American Beauty" http://www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/8374

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Hey, I love t-shirts and they’ve been a mainstay of my casual wardrobe for years. I also really like to shop, dress up for work, have tons of clothes but always want something new. Doing lots of races feeds this habit. (and I only have two bikes!) Certain t-shirts are worn with particular pride like my Boston marathon shirt from 1994 or one of my ugliest (though still one I’m very proud to wear) Gulf Coast 1997. Now that I’m married to someone who races and we get two large t-shirts for every race. I do give them to my non-athletic siblings and friends. Even got an extra Boston t-shirt for my Mom. So the answer your question, the t-shirt is part of the experience just like staying for the post race goodies and awards. Wendy "had special shelves built for t-shirts" in St. Pete Beach

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I used to think the same thing.  Then I discovered that there is no better bike cleaning rag than a race T. Start at the collar, rip apart the seams that go down each shoulder and continue tearing right down to the end of the sleeve.  Now start again at the seam at the under-arm and tear all the way to the bottom hem.  Now you’ve got 2 big rags, but I normally rip ‘em up into even smaller patches. Or, I’ll tear strips off to make the perfect cog cleaner. — Stacy Hills Reston, VA

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With all the very appropriate, timely talk here lately about costs, RD, governing bodies, etc., I hope everybody doesn’t mind if I bring up another old issue: do we really want to pay the extra money for race tees?  Over the past few years, after listening to triathletes rightfully gripe about steeper entry fees, the odd race here and there offers a cheaper no-shirt option, but not many.  And since a director has to figure up the shirt costs, and their effect on the entry fee, well in advance, something has to give somewhere — either s/he estimates correctly the number of shirts desired, sells them all, and everybody’s happy; or doesn’t sell all that are printed, so the cost gets transferred to the all participants anyway; or doesn’t print enough, and the people who wanted one are unhappy. Frankly, if I want to wear an article of clothing to identify myself as a triathlete, I’ll just buy some commercially available item.  Or get a tattoo, wear an earring, buy a license-plate frame, bumper sticker, etc.  Or just walk around in swim briefs, shaved to the skin. Sure, a nice, colorful, creatively designed and well-printed shirt is a cool thing to have, but do we expect one because we really want it, or just because we figure, "well, for the entry fee I’m paying, by god, they’d better be handing out cashmere sweaters."  Personally, I’d rather an RD take all the shirt money and either apply it to cheaper fees so I can do more races (although, realistically, since just a few bucks one way or the other probably won’t determine whether I do an event or not, that actually means I can pony up and race less begrudgingly), or use the money for other things such as a kick-ass crew of draft-busters and/or a better post-race party. Two cents, take it or leave it. David "Sometimes there’s so much beauty in the world, I feel like I can’t take it." Ricky (Wes Bentley), in the upcoming "American Beauty" http://www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/8374

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With all the very appropriate, timely talk here lately about costs, RD, governing bodies, etc., I hope everybody doesn’t mind if I bring up another old issue: do we really want to pay the extra money for race tees?

A good solution could be to employ the method a local swim masters meet uses.  They have a box on the entry form asking if you’d like to purchase a meet t-shirt for $10.  That way they know how many to order (plus some extras for late entries) and save those of us who aren’t interested $10. Wish they would do the same thing with the medals/plaques/trophies or replace them with practical gifts like socks (one of the best awards I’ve ever received!) or shorts or $5 or $10 gift certificates to the local bike shop. -hug(whose closet overfloweth with 100 race tees) Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Maybe it’s just that I’m new to the sport, but I really cherish all the usable freebies, even swim caps,

The problem is, those "freebies" aren’t.  To paraphrase, there’s no such thing as a free post-race party.  Everything that comes with an entry, one way or another is paid for by your entry fee.  The more you pay, the more you get to take home, whether it’s in supposed schwag, or simply the caliber of the event experience. David "Sometimes there’s so much beauty in the world, I feel like I can’t take it."   Ricky (Wes Bentley), in the upcoming "American Beauty" http://www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/8374

Response:

but I always loved getting race tees to work out in, work around the house in, etc. I loved this the first two years. But now each time I get a new one, I have to toss an old one so they fit on my tee-shirt shelf.  (It’s even getting harder to give them away–so 15 of the past two years worth went to Goodwill.) Jeff Ginn                                                                          o                      __o            </_                      <           __/   /o_           (()) (())           /

One idea is what my mom does for people in the family (We have a lot of road runners in the family) is make a memory quilt. You take 15-20 tshirts, cut out the logo, sew them to squares, then make a quilt out of it. I have two already! John "Ad astra per aspera" "A rough road leads to the stars"    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

Response:

With all the very appropriate, timely talk here lately about costs, RD, governing bodies, etc., I hope everybody doesn’t mind if I bring up another old issue: do we really want to pay the extra money for race tees?  Over the past few years, after listening to triathletes rightfully gripe about steeper entry fees, the odd race here and there offers a cheaper no-shirt option, but not many.  And since a director has to figure up the shirt costs, and their effect on the entry fee, well in advance, something has to give somewhere — either s/he estimates correctly the number of shirts desired, sells them all, and everybody’s happy; or doesn’t sell all that are printed, so the cost gets transferred to the all participants anyway; or doesn’t print enough, and the people who wanted one are unhappy. Frankly, if I want to wear an article of clothing to identify myself as a triathlete, I’ll just buy some commercially available item.  Or get a tattoo, wear an earring, buy a license-plate frame, bumper sticker, etc.  Or just walk around in swim briefs, shaved to the skin. Sure, a nice, colorful, creatively designed and well-printed shirt is a cool thing to have, but do we expect one because we really want it, or just because we figure, "well, for the entry fee I’m paying, by god, they’d better be handing out cashmere sweaters."  Personally, I’d rather an RD take all the shirt money and either apply it to cheaper fees so I can do more races (although, realistically, since just a few bucks one way or the other probably won’t determine whether I do an event or not, that actually means I can pony up and race less begrudgingly), or use the money for other things such as a kick-ass crew of draft-busters and/or a better post-race party. Two cents, take it or leave it. David "Sometimes there’s so much beauty in the world, I feel like I can’t take it."   Ricky (Wes Bentley), in the upcoming "American Beauty" http://www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/8374

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My Mom made me two quilts also. I have them hanging up at work, and they get a lot of nice compliments, and generate many athletic discussions.  She started with a pattern I bought her out of Runner’s World, but then she actually improved upon it. My Dad has told me, however, that she will not be making me a third one! — Bernie Hall                                            o                         __o          </_                         <        __ /       /o__      (0)  (0)           /

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I just trash my old race shirts mountain biking. AJ — If swimming is so good for the figure, explain whales Simon Haigh Illawarra Triathlon Club – Australia http://get.to/itc    

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I had a huge box full of race t-shirts too.  My Mom came to visit and swiped the box and returned a couple of months later with a large quilt made out of them.  She made a block out of each shirt.  Its an awesome quilt that always gets compliments by anyone who sees it.  I love it!  Just an idea for those of you with a shelf or box full of shirts you rarely wear. — Jeff ‘The Rotoman’ Rotenberger

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With all the very appropriate, timely talk here lately about costs, RD, governing bodies, etc., I hope everybody doesn’t mind if I bring up another old issue: do we really want to pay the extra money for race tees? Maybe it’s just that I’m new to the sport, but I really cherish all the usable freebies, even swim caps, which I generally hate and will only wear when required to do so.  I can see, however, where the T-shirts will pile up rapidly. Perhaps more races could try and offer something different?  So far I’ve gotten one T-shirt and one tank top, which is a good mix, and the Army Ten-Miler will be giving me a long-sleeved T in a couple weeks.  Maybe some clever race director will give out some workout shorts?  I always seem to be short on those.

Response:

Frankly, if I want to wear an article of clothing to identify myself as a triathlete, I’ll just buy some commercially available item.  Or get a

I agree that it might be an unneeded item, but I always loved getting race tees to work out in, work around the house in, etc. John "Ad astra per aspera" "A rough road leads to the stars"    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

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but I always loved getting race tees to work out in, work around the house in, etc.

I loved this the first two years. But now each time I get a new one, I have to toss an old one so they fit on my tee-shirt shelf.  (It’s even getting harder to give them away–so 15 of the past two years worth went to Goodwill.)  Jeff Ginn                                                                           o                       __o            </_                       <           __/    /o_           (()) (())           /

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With all the very appropriate, timely talk here lately about costs, RD, governing bodies, etc., I hope everybody doesn’t mind if I bring up another old issue: do we really want to pay the extra money for race tees?

Maybe it’s just that I’m new to the sport, but I really cherish all the usable freebies, even swim caps, which I generally hate and will only wear when required to do so.  I can see, however, where the T-shirts will pile up rapidly. Perhaps more races could try and offer something different?  So far I’ve gotten one T-shirt and one tank top, which is a good mix, and the Army Ten-Miler will be giving me a long-sleeved T in a couple weeks.  Maybe some clever race director will give out some workout shorts?  I always seem to be short on those.

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Question:

Due to extreme high temperatures expected for the June 28, 1998 Half Ironman IQ race in Lubbock, Texas the race start has been moved to 6:30 A.M.  The area is like the rest of Texas nowadays, hot and dry.  The current forcast calls for 105 degrees + days for the 6 days preceeding the race and 110 degrees the Saturday before.  The actual race day temp has not been included in the current forcast, but it will be hot.  The year it was 113 degrees it was 108 the day before the race.  Some come prepared to hydrate, we will have plenty of ice, Race Day, water, etc. Mike Greer, Race Director

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Due to extreme high temperatures expected for the June 28, 1998 Half Ironman IQ race in Lubbock, Texas the race start has been moved to 6:30 A.M.  The area is like the rest of Texas nowadays, hot and dry.  The current forcast calls for 105 degrees + days for the 6 days preceeding the race and 110 degrees the Saturday before.  The actual race day temp has not been included in the current forcast, but it will be hot.  The year it was 113 degrees it was 108 the day before the race.  Some come prepared to hydrate, we will have plenty of ice, Race Day, water, etc.

Yikes! Thanks for the forecast…and the warning. I just ran a race in 90 degree weather today and did not feel good about it. Jeez, another challenge…                           |26      | IMC’96: 10:36:37          |   Fe   |   ‘98 IMC, GCT, BSLT IMC’97: 10:42:53          |        |                  "THE BEST ELEMENT OF RACING"

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Question:

: One thing we should always consider is – what are the person’s goals. To expand on this, it’s more than just the absolute time goals: it’s how much the person is desiring to maximize their potential.  This will differ based on natural talent, training background, etc. : Can someone run a sub 3 marathon with a maximum long run of 15 miles? Been there.  Done that.  Didn’t get a T-shirt, though. : Probably not. Can someone run a 4 hour marathon with that? Yes. Does : someone planning to run a 4 hour marathon need to run 20+ miles? Not : neccesarily. I just like to add a little counter-point to those who : insist that you HAVE to run 20+. First, as you said, the goal needs to be defined.  I’ll make a distinction between running a marathon and racing a marathon.  Running marathon means that your goal pace is slower that your typical training run.  In other words, you need to slow down simply to complete the distance.  If that is your goal, then runs over 20 miles are likely not needed, though I believe they would help. If you are going to race, to attempt to maximize your potential at the distance, where simply getting to the end is not a big deal but holding pace is, I think that runs over 20 are very helpful.  Simply put, you must have the distance base such that the mere mileage of the race is not daunting.  I think this is best achieved by doing the longest training runs you can provided they are not damaging you more than helping you.  This will obviously vary from person to person. Once you get to that point, you need to assess your own abilities to see what specific training will really help you.  I personally seem to have very good natural speed and a tendancy to run even my long runs at a pretty good clip.  But the distance is such that I tend to crash.  For me, I’ve found it’s pretty simple; the more distance I do, the better I run.  That correlation has yet to fail up to 80 miles a week and long runs of 21 miles. My friend Carlos, who posted about doing faster training runs, is a different case than I.  He habitually puts in way more mileage, and does not find the distance itself a problem.  His natural top end speed is pretty good, but he has trouble carrying the speed a long way.  For him, the faster paced long runs work well. For my friend Rick, the distance and holding speed was no problem.  He sustained long periods of 80 mile weeks and 20 mile runs as his standard training.  Throwing in an extra 6 on the occasional Sunday was not a problem.  What he really benefitted from was doing shorter runs and repeats much faster than marathon pace to increase his top speed. Among the elite, there are different things that work for different people.  I’ve heard stories of Jane Welzel going up and blasting hard for 20+ milers on mountain trails.  A friend who trained with Danny Gonzalez told of doing 2 10 mile loops: the first at a good pace (probably low 6 minutes for them) and having Danny rip the second 10 at well under 5:30 pace.  A woman friend who is hoping to hit the Olympic Trials qualifying this year has a workout I’ve dubbed the "lucky 7s" workout: 7 miles easy, 7 miles faster than marathon pace, the 7 miles easy at the end. There is one common theme there.  If you really want to be a good marathoner, it ain’t rocket science; run long and run fast. -pfrench

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Mike writes: If you’re simply saying that people who haven’t run marathons shouldn’t advise others on how to do it, I agree completely.  Sort of like the Pope giving sex advice… What I’m not sure of is who you’re talking about – which triathetes are "hammering" someone or giving out particularly bad advice. I haven’t picked up on that. And are you sure that the triathletes you have in mind haven’t done marathons?

Mike, No I wasn’t meaning you, just others I’ve read here and personally heard out at the park and local races. Probably on the same order of 5K’s and 10K’s to marathons. There are only a handful of IM distance events out there. Lots of shorter and middle distance tri’s, tho.

I figured after I wrote that it may be difficult to determine, like you said it would be like trying to compare shrter races vs. marathons.  Thanks for the info, I was just curious. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike writes: Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g Okay.  :)  Let me ask you a question Mike, this may be a little off subject and I’m not a TriGuy, just a runner/racer/coach.  I see where you do run the full marathon length in tri’s and/or in marathons so I can see where you would/can help on training for that distance.  Although we disagree on the mileage/distance needed.  :)  But alot of the people I see/hear doing Tri’s nowadays do the smaller more popular tri events.  The 1k swim, 40k bike, 5/10k run etc..  Nothing wrong with this, infact it’s great.  But I hear them delving out all this marathon advice when their long run in practice or the event may be a 10k or 10 miler at most, maybe a hair longer.  Same is said with the weekend runner or 5k runner giving out this advise who has no clue what it really takes, and they have never ran a marathon before.  I know they’re only trying to help but it just burns my butt when other marathoners try and give out sound distance advice and get hammered by them.

If you’re simply saying that people who haven’t run marathons shouldn’t advise others on how to do it, I agree completely.  Sort of like the Pope giving sex advice… What I’m not sure of is who you’re talking about – which triathetes are "hammering" someone or giving out particularly bad advice. I haven’t picked up on that. And are you sure that the triathletes you have in mind haven’t done marathons? Altho it is true that most triathlons are considerably shorter than an Ironman (THANK GOD!), so are most road races shorter than a marathon. Is it valid to criticize a triathlete for giving marathon advice – because they do mostly shorter non-Ironman races – yet accept advise from a runner who does mostly 5K’s and 10K’s? <IF both have done marathons, of course. You could even argue that a triathlete might be a good source of info on longer distance running because they always start out the run fatigued. The training needed to run a 10K in a tri – which might be preceded by an 1 1/2 hour effort, might be valuble in dealing with the last stages of a marathon. Again, I know we all want to help others here as this it what this forum is about.  But it concerns me when I see some of these statements and advice given that my not be helpful to the person asking for and needing help on the marathon.  I’m not suggesting it’s my way or the highway and I am always right or all marathoners are always right in their statements and coaching.  I’m not saying anyone (just because he’s a marathoner) is any smarter or better to coach than anyone else here but some of this advise I’ve seen here (in my opinion) is really non beneficial and maybe counterproductive and is given BY runners who have no idea what it takes to run a good marathon.

When giving running advice, I harken back to my "pure" running periods and what I did then. One thing we should always consider is – what are the person’s goals. I have no personally unique advise to give someone who wants to run a sub 3 hour marathon. That’s beyond my level. I can offer them standard, safe advise based on my background knowledge  - and from hanging out here. So I try to limit myself to responding to the more ordinary among us and leave the speed merchant questions to those who can do that. Can someone run a sub 3 marathon with a maximum long run of 15 miles? Probably not. Can someone run a 4 hour marathon with that? Yes. Does someone planning to run a 4 hour marathon need to run 20+ miles? Not neccesarily. I just like to add a little counter-point to those who insist that you HAVE to run 20+. <Not that you insist, mind you … Training for a triathlon and training for only runs is different, tho similar in principle. It’s the mixture of LSD, endurance, and speed workouts that works.  How you get them varies. Let me reiterate, everyone is intitled to their opinion and no individual is necessarily any better at coaching than anyone else.  Heck even the veterans disagree alot.  :)  But I believe the veteran marathoners here have a little more knowledge than some non marathoners in regards to the marathon and advice regarding training.

I couldn’t agree more. Just like I look for advice on training for the Ironman from previous Ironmen (and Ironwomen), someone looking to do a marathon should listen to vets. Whew!!! Oh, so I guess my question is:  :)   Do you have any idea of the number/ratio of participants in these shorter tri’s compared to the full length Ironman type tri’s?

Probably on the same order of 5K’s and 10K’s to marathons. There are only a handful of IM distance events out there. Lots of shorter and middle distance tri’s, tho. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/

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Still, I don’t think a run over 20 adds that much value. But it works for some people and you have to experiment to see what works for you. My inclination would be to do harder, shorter endurance runs. But my regimen also includes 4-5 hour bike rides, so those are my real long training bouts. If I’m gearing up for a marathon, I add some 15 mile runs, but that’s it. I couldn’t see running a marathon on 15 mile runs.  Although I guess if you ride your bike for a couple 100 miles you get the same cardiovascular benefits.  I’m wondering at what pace you do your long runs with compared to your marathon racing times? or are all of your marathons with a 2.4 mile swim and a 112 mile bike ride? Matt

My long runs are at about a minute per mile slower than my marathon race pace. I’m training now for my first Ironman Tri – which is the only triathlon with a marathon as the run. Most triathlons are shorter events, for example: Sprints: 1/4 mile S, 10 Mile B, 3 Mile R Olympic: 1 Mile S, 25 B, 6 R All my previous marathons have been unassociated with tri’s.I’ll probably run a marathon this spring as part of my training. My training mileage mix will be different than for other M’s, so it’ll be interesting to see how that goes. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/

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Benny writes:  A lot written but not a lot said David.  Some individuals are better at coaching than others, it would be a mistake thinking otherwise.  It would also be a mistake to assume that running a god marathon makes you well able to coach someone to a similar feat since i’m sure it has been said a million times before we are all indivduals and therefore have to be treated as such.  

True, every case is different, there are many variables in each case.  As a long time runner and coach I’m very aware of this.  Nor did I say any different. You seem to have disdain for non marathoners or weekend runners but surely you can accept that we can learn from anyones experience good or bad.  

I have no distain for anyone who is health minded and tries to better themself through running.  What I do have a problem with is someone who’s never ran over a 10 miler giving bad marathon advise and disputing others who have. The advice given on newsgroups is general in nature and on a take it or leave it basis since to give informed opinion on any form of training as it relates to that individual would need intimate knowledge of that individuals circumstances and we dont have it here.  Don’t get too serious about all this RUNNING is a sport and SPORTS are meant to be fun.  And before you jump on my case, yes I have run a marathon(admittedly not very fast) and I am a qualified distance coach and I learn a lot from the advise given here usually by the weekend runners. bm.

Good for you, and I’ll take input from everyone, but I’d say the veterans and pros should be, and are, alot more knowledgeable than a weekend warrior. That’s not putting down the weekend warrior, it’s just he’s not traveled the miles in some peoples shoes, shall we say.  And when he gives bad advise here that could hurt or hinder anothers performance we need to inform them of it. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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I agree with everyone. Actually my initial post was a request for help from anyone who had an idea how to prevent crashing in the last four or five miles of a marathon. I appreciate hearing lots of options, (except from the guy who said drive the last six miles),then I can pick the ones that I think may work for me. I would consider myself an old pro. I’m old, 51. I’ve completed 15 marathons in the last 11 years. And I even won $75 dollars in my last marathon for being 3rd in my age group, Does that make me a pro? Still, I want help and advice. Just because I’ve been training for and running marathons for 11 years doesn’t mean I know everything. What I do know is how to listen to my body and what I’m comfortable doing. So the different training suggestions were filtered through my own knowledge and experience. I got some great ideas. I will try the 13 X 2mi repeats at near race pace. But not monthly. I will try 20+ milers at race pace. And I will try a couple of other marathons at training pace befor my target race. Thanks to all who answered my post. Carl Muffoletto

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Benny writes: WHY DAVID we are not the running gestapo, let them hear all sides of the story and then make up their own minds. First because we’re here to help not hinder or hurt.  But as I stated in my intial post everyone has a right to their opinion.  I just don’t know why anyone in the first place would want to comment on marathon training if they’d never ran one or had no clue what they were talking about.  But if I’m a first time marathoner or an old pro at it I’d want input from someone who’s been there.  Just as if I were a new runner and wanted to start running or wanted to run a local fun run for the first time.  I’d ask other runners or racers, not my neighbor or my barber who wouldn’t have any idea since they’ve never run before.  But one reason my first post was so long was to try and avoid this, I made it as simplistic as possible.   No we are not the running gestapo, yes, as I’ve stated over and over everyone has a right to comment (please go back and read my intial post on this), but I (personally) have problems with new pilots flying the plane with instructors who have no clue what they’re doing up there. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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Benny writes: WHY DAVID we are not the running gestapo, let them hear all sides of the story and then make up their own minds.

First because we’re here to help not hinder or hurt.  But as I stated in my intial post everyone has a right to their opinion.  I just don’t know why anyone in the first place would want to comment on marathon training if they’d never ran one or had no clue what they were talking about.  But if I’m a first time marathoner or an old pro at it I’d want input from someone who’s been there.  Just as if I were a new runner and wanted to start running or wanted to run a local fun run for the first time.  I’d ask other runners or racers, not my neighbor or my barber who wouldn’t have any idea since they’ve never run before.  But one reason my first post was so long was to try and avoid this, I made it as simplistic as possible.   No we are not the running gestapo, yes, as I’ve stated over and over everyone has a right to comment (please go back and read my intial post on this), but I (personally) have problems with new pilots flying the plane with instructors who have no clue what they’re doing up there. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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 when he gives bad advise here that could hurt or hinder anothers performance we need to inform them of it.

WHY DAVID we are not the running gestapo, let them hear all sides of the story and then make up their own minds.

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Still, I don’t think a run over 20 adds that much value. But it works for some people and you have to experiment to see what works for you. My inclination would be to do harder, shorter endurance runs. But my regimen also includes 4-5 hour bike rides, so those are my real long training bouts. If I’m gearing up for a marathon, I add some 15 mile runs, but that’s it.

I couldn’t see running a marathon on 15 mile runs.  Although I guess if you ride your bike for a couple 100 miles you get the same cardiovascular benefits.  I’m wondering at what pace you do your long runs with compared to your marathon racing times? or are all of your marathons with a 2.4 mile swim and a 112 mile bike ride? Matt

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Do you guys think my age, 51, is a prohibitive factor? In 94 I did marathons 22 days apart and really crashed early, mile 18, in the second. Granted it was the Marine Corp in 94 (forever known unfortunately as Oprah’s marathon), in miserable weather conditions. But still I crashed early and had my worst finishing time ever, 4:07. I assumed I needed more rest. But if I get you right you believe a run or two at about marathon distance and only slightly below target race pace has worked for you. Worth a try I guess. Thanks for your input. Carl Muffoletto – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David writes: I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon. I agree with David.  I find my legs hold out much longer when I do a few 22-24 milers within 2 months of the marathon (but NOT on consecutive weeks). Actually I ran my best marathon only 6 weeks after running the NYC marathon nearly 20 years ago.  Two years ago, I ran a strong marathon (at least my legs didn’t give out and felt reasonably strong the last few miles) only 29 days after another pretty decent marathon.  For me, the bottom line is that giving my body a marathon or near-marathon experience helps better prepare me for the marathon. Ron

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David writes: I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.

I agree on the 20+ LSD runs but not a few weeks before the marathon. Too close to be hard enough to be beneficial and more likely to be done if you are not confident of your ability to finish the distance.Try this for a radical solution, 13 x 2 miles at 5s/mile faster than race pace with 1 min rec between reps.  Do this once a month all year round, alter times as neccesary. bm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike writes: Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g Okay.  :)  Let me ask you a question Mike, this may be a little off subject and I’m not a TriGuy, just a runner/racer/coach.  I see where you do run the full marathon length in tri’s and/or in marathons so I can see where you would/can help on training for that distance.  Although we disagree on the mileage/distance needed.  :)  But alot of the people I see/hear doing Tri’s nowadays do the smaller more popular tri events.  The 1k swim, 40k bike, 5/10k run etc..  Nothing wrong with this, infact it’s great.  But I hear them delving out all this marathon advice when their long run in practice or the event may be a 10k or 10 miler at most, maybe a hair longer.  Same is said with the weekend runner or 5k runner giving out this advise who has no clue what it really takes, and they have never ran a marathon before.

   A lot written but not a lot said David.  Some individuals are better at coaching than others, it would be a mistake thinking otherwise.  It would also be a mistake to assume that running a god marathon makes you well able to coach someone to a similar feat since i’m sure it has been said a million times before we are all indivduals and therefore have to be treated as such.  You seem to have disdain for non marathoners or weekend runners but surely you can accept that we can learn from anyones experience good or bad.  The advice given on newsgroups is general in nature and on a take it or leave it basis since to give informed opinion on any form of training as it relates to that individual would need intimate knowledge of that individuals circumstances and we dont have it here.  Don’t get too serious about all this RUNNING is a sport and SPORTS are meant to be fun.  And before you jump on my case, yes I have run a marathon(admittedly not very fast) and I am a qualified distance coach and I learn a lot from the advise given here usually by the weekend runners. bm.

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I did run a 50K (31 mi) trail run about a month before my last marathon. But this was at a real slow pace. I can’t imagine running 20+ mile training runs at race pace. At least not more that one.  Maybe if I was in my twenties, but at 51 it takes a lot longer to recover from that sort of effort. I’d love to be able to give it a try though. Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That still begs the question, how does one train, if not long runs, to not : run down at mile 21 (or 22 or 23)? : Carl Muffoletto I’d like to propose a different option.  I crashed and burned 6 marathons in a row, until I realized that it wasn’t the distance that was the problem — it was trying to hold a pace that my legs weren’t used to.  I could hold 6:00 miles for 16-20 miles, then I’d completely fall apart. Instead of running your long runs longer, run them closer to race pace.  I run my long runs at 6:30 – 6:40 pace now, with faster miles at the end.  I usually run 6-8 long runs before a marathon, from 18 to 20 miles, and 1 at 22-23 miles. My prior long run pace was around 7:30. I’ve now run 4 marathons in a row where I’ve held together through all 26.2 miles. There are some disadvantages to doing long runs faster —  - it takes longer for your legs to recover.  My track workouts on Tuesdays    are pretty poor once I start marathon training.  - if you do too many of them, you start going stale. On the other hand, I’ve found that I only need 6-8 long runs prior to a marathon, instead of 15-18. Carlos

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Gary Writes: Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury. I must disagree.  I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.  I’ve talked to several coaches and pros who even believe that to prepare your body you must run a full marathon in training.  I won’t do that myself.  But their thinking is, if you race 5k’s you run 5k’s beforehand, same with 5 milers, 10k’s, 10 milers. halfs, you need to prepare your body for that distance.  

Of course the big difference here <as you probably agree is that those 5K’s and 5 milers don’t beat up the legs like a 26.2 mile run does. But I believe Galloway’s longer runs include include numerous walking breaks to ease that problem.   Still, I don’t think a run over 20 adds that much value. But it works for some people and you have to experiment to see what works for you. My inclination would be to do harder, shorter endurance runs. But my regimen also includes 4-5 hour bike rides, so those are my real long training bouts. If I’m gearing up for a marathon, I add some 15 mile runs, but that’s it. Again I don’t do this either but a do believe that a few 22+ LSD’s are needed or at least helpful.  If you don’t agree then go to the 20 mile marker at any marathon and see how many people start falling apart, this is proof in itsself.

Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/

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Mike writes: Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g

Okay.  :)  Let me ask you a question Mike, this may be a little off subject and I’m not a TriGuy, just a runner/racer/coach.  I see where you do run the full marathon length in tri’s and/or in marathons so I can see where you would/can help on training for that distance.  Although we disagree on the mileage/distance needed.  :)  But alot of the people I see/hear doing Tri’s nowadays do the smaller more popular tri events.  The 1k swim, 40k bike, 5/10k run etc..  Nothing wrong with this, infact it’s great.  But I hear them delving out all this marathon advice when their long run in practice or the event may be a 10k or 10 miler at most, maybe a hair longer.  Same is said with the weekend runner or 5k runner giving out this advise who has no clue what it really takes, and they have never ran a marathon before.  I know they’re only trying to help but it just burns my butt when other marathoners try and give out sound distance advice and get hammered by them.  Again, I know we all want to help others here as this it what this forum is about.  But it concerns me when I see some of these statements and advice given that my not be helpful to the person asking for and needing help on the marathon.  I’m not suggesting it’s my way or the highway and I am always right or all marathoners are always right in their statements and coaching.  I’m not saying anyone (just because he’s a marathoner) is any smarter or better to coach than anyone else here but some of this advise I’ve seen here (in my opinion) is really non beneficial and maybe counterproductive and is given BY runners who have no idea what it takes to run a good marathon.  Let me reiterate, everyone is intitled to their opinion and no individual is necessarily any better at coaching than anyone else.  Heck even the veterans disagree alot.  :)  But I believe the veteran marathoners here have a little more knowledge than some non marathoners in regards to the marathon and advice regarding training.  Whew!!! Oh, so I guess my question is:  :)   Do you have any idea of the number/ratio of participants in these shorter tri’s compared to the full length Ironman type tri’s? Just my 2 cents for the day.  :) David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

Response:

David writes: I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.

I agree with David.  I find my legs hold out much longer when I do a few 22-24 milers within 2 months of the marathon (but NOT on consecutive weeks). Actually I ran my best marathon only 6 weeks after running the NYC marathon nearly 20 years ago.  Two years ago, I ran a strong marathon (at least my legs didn’t give out and felt reasonably strong the last few miles) only 29 days after another pretty decent marathon.  For me, the bottom line is that giving my body a marathon or near-marathon experience helps better prepare me for the marathon. Ron

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Carl: I’m not sure what your quad problem is but, if it’s simple fatigue, I think your longer runs in training should be closer to marathon distance. You’re a little faster (and 13 years better) than me so I offer this with a grain of salt. My long runs are 24 to 25 miles broken up into four 10K slices.  I have water "stops" at 6,12, and 18. For the first half (1-12) I keep even splits 2 minutes slower than 10K race pace; mile 12-18,  I speed-up to 1:30 slower than 10K pace and 18 -24, I try to push it to 1:00 over 10K pace. not an easy work-out but it seems effective in staving off late mile fatigue.  my first couple of marathons I followed the conventional "wisdom" of 20 mile maximum runs and crashed badly with hamstring cramps etc.. at miles 23 and 24. since adopting the above strategy for my last five marathons, i’m still very tired at the end but I haven’t crashed and I’m able to keep my speed up (even negative splits!). I know lots of training books adhere to the 20 mile maximum, but there are plenty of training methods that run counter. In fact, Galloway’s book called for long runs of 30 miles! Every one is an individual and you just have to see what works for you.  steve r.

Response:

I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get. How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads!

I have never read Galloway’s book, but from my experience anything over 20 miles on pavement takes more effort than I get benefit. Why does Galloway say run longer distances? What pace does he recommend? I did run three hours on trails which I find less damaging than pavement in getting ready for my last marathon. But I still had the mile 21 miseries. Most responses to my post have recommended intermediate distances (12-15 miles) at race pace rather than 20 mile LSD’s. Intuitively it makes sense to run long distances to prepare to race long distances. But most advice is counter to that (except you say Galloway). There must be factory at work that I do not intuitively recognize. Carl Muffoletto

Response:

: That still begs the question, how does one train, if not long runs, to not : run down at mile 21 (or 22 or 23)? : Carl Muffoletto I’d like to propose a different option.  I crashed and burned 6 marathons in a row, until I realized that it wasn’t the distance that was the problem — it was trying to hold a pace that my legs weren’t used to.  I could hold 6:00 miles for 16-20 miles, then I’d completely fall apart. Instead of running your long runs longer, run them closer to race pace.  I run my long runs at 6:30 – 6:40 pace now, with faster miles at the end.  I usually run 6-8 long runs before a marathon, from 18 to 20 miles, and 1 at 22-23 miles.   My prior long run pace was around 7:30. I’ve now run 4 marathons in a row where I’ve held together through all 26.2 miles. There are some disadvantages to doing long runs faster —   – it takes longer for your legs to recover.  My track workouts on Tuesdays     are pretty poor once I start marathon training.   – if you do too many of them, you start going stale. On the other hand, I’ve found that I only need 6-8 long runs prior to a marathon, instead of 15-18. Carlos

Response:

Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury.

Bull Durham. Read Richard Benyo’s excellent book, _Making the Marathon your Event_. He includes a 22-23 mile run in many of his schedules. Bear in mind that your "professional runner" is putting in 90-120 mpw, i.e., averaging 13-17 miles per day. Consider, that one of the greatest running coaches in history, Arthur Lydiard, had his MILER, Peter Snell, complete a standard marathon race as part of his training FOR THE MILE! Worth noting is that Snell set several world records off this training. Mark Sandrock — (Not speaking for my employer.) Wolfram Research, Inc. Voice: 217-398-0700/x107

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Every marathon I’ve run, except for the very slow ones when I didn’t push myself, I have had a problem at about mile 21 or 22. My quads become very sore and I can hardly lift my legs. Every step is painful. Of course my pace slows way down. Can anyone offer advice on how I should train, eat, race etc. to prevent this problem, or at least delay it? I am 51 and a 3:20 marathoner. — Carl S. Muffoletto Network Manager VP Buildings

Response:

I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get. How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads!

Response:

I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get.  How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads!

Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury. GK I wish Pheidippides had died at mile 12! Gary W. Kopycinski             Ecclesia Semper Reformanda! http://homepage.interaccess.com/~frodojrr      Team OS/2!           Shire Enterprises FAX * (708) 755-0915 * Bart’s Blackboard : "The principal’s toupee is not a Frisbee."

Response:

Gary Writes: Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury.

I must disagree.  I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.  I’ve talked to several coaches and pros who even believe that to prepare your body you must run a full marathon in training.  I won’t do that myself.  But their thinking is, if you race 5k’s you run 5k’s beforehand, same with 5 milers, 10k’s, 10 milers. halfs, you need to prepare your body for that distance.  Again I don’t do this either but a do believe that a few 22+ LSD’s are needed or at least helpful.  If you don’t agree then go to the 20 mile marker at any marathon and see how many people start falling apart, this is proof in itsself. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

Response:

That still begs the question, how does one train, if not long runs, to not run down at mile 21 (or 22 or 23)? Carl Muffoletto

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get.  How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads! Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury. GK I wish Pheidippides had died at mile 12! Gary W. Kopycinski             Ecclesia Semper Reformanda! http://homepage.interaccess.com/~frodojrr      Team OS/2!          Shire Enterprises FAX * (708) 755-0915 * Bart’s Blackboard : "The principal’s toupee is not a Frisbee."

Response:

Question:

I’ll go way out on a limb here, and say that if the original poster really wants something with no sugar, but wants calories he’s got a few choices. One is to mix up a drink using maltodextrin — which is not technically a sugar.  It’s a chain of sugar molecules, I think the term is a starch. Another possibility is to buy a product called Fat Free Gainers Fuel by Twinlab.  This comes in various flavors and contains starchers, protein, a little fat (MCTs I think), and aspertame (Nutrasweet). It’s made to be mixed up thick, like a shake as a meal replacement or supplement, but I’ve used it thinner (around 10% in water in winter) on long bike rides as a liquid food (instead of powerbars) and it works well. I hate aspertame though, so now I buy regular (not sugar free) Gainers Fuel which has sugar. JT

Response:

Hi Patty I’m starting to think Terry’s drink may be good for you. I found a great source on information about sports drink rehydration. http://chico.rice.edu/~jenkins/sports/dehydration.html Let me summarize: Sweat contains more than two grams of sweat per liter. Gatorade

to the triathlon group and his home page is thorough. I sent some info to him at Rice Univ. on behalf of Bill Gookin and don’t know if other "G" word and that is one thing that triggered his inventiveness back in the late 60s. If you decide to contact Bill (or me for that matter) a freebie ’semi-tech’ report on sports activity drinks is diabetes question? I wondered about that. Gookinaid E.R.G. packaging bears the admonition to check with physician in case one is diabetic to ascertain if 5% glucose (max) is tolerable.   2470 Stearns, ste.274             Simi Valley, CA. 93063

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The only type of sugar that would be ok for me to use would be fructose. that is why i was interested in using the orange juice.  And no I am not looking for a "diet" sport drink. I am talking about during my longer runs 15 miles and over. I could be wrong but wouldn’t water alone be considered inadequate for the distance. Well any help and/or advice would be appreciated.

Hi Patty I’m starting to think Terry’s drink may be good for you. I found a great source on information about sports drink rehydration. http://chico.rice.edu/~jenkins/sports/dehydration.html Let me summarize: Sweat contains more than two grams of sweat per liter. Gatorade contains just a little more than one. Potassium and sodium are excreted with the sweat and are more crucial to rehydration than electrolytes. The source also suggests not bothering with a sugar sports drink for runs under 1 hour. Just use water. I personally have good results with drinks using Maltodextrin as the sugar. People in the industry say it burns slower. I have found this sugar dominant in some drinks OTHER than Gatorade. You just have to read the label. Oh, and yes I ran 10k this evening. I had two big glasses of water and a chocolate chip cookie. Bye for now,         J Jay Jewitt Gulf Coast Internet Mall http://www.gcnetmall.com

Response:

The only type of sugar that would be ok for me to use would be fructose. that is why i was interested in using the orange juice.  And no I am not looking for a "diet" sport drink. I am talking about during my longer runs 15 miles and over. I could be wrong but wouldn’t water alone be considered inadequate for the distance. Well any help and/or advice would be appreciated.

Response:

        water and orange juice mixed together?         andrew         (sorry, couldn’t resist Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear enough……. I am looking for recipes for a sports drink, using orange juice instead of sugar.  I would like to use something on my longer runs, but I can’t really use sugar.  Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

–            work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357     institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh                      http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww

Response:

i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again!

Since glucose, sucrose, fructose, etc are all sugars, I’m not sure there is an energy drink without "sugars". Perhaps you can better define chemically what it is you don’t (can’t ) use? TriBop WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Beginner’s FAQ, Software Download the WebRunner Racing Utilities   http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

Response:

Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear enough……. I am looking for recipes for a sports drink, using orange juice instead of sugar.  I would like to use something on my longer runs, but I can’t really use sugar.  Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

Perhaps you need to be a bit more articulate.  Last time I checked orange juice had sugar in it (fructose).  Are you trying to say that you can’t "use" sucrose? Are you diabetic? The overriding purpose of a "sports" drink is 1) fluid replacement 2) energy replacement, and to a much smaller extent 3) electrolite replacement.  So, if you don’t have some form of sugar (glucose, sucrose, fructose, dextrose…) in the drink you might as well be drinking water.  I have yet to see a DIET sportsdrink.  Makes as much sense as dehydrated water. Thom Trimble East Bay Striders

Response:

Gookinaid E.R.G. (Energy Replacement Glucose) Competition flavor……5% Glucose Lemonade and Fruit Punch flavors ….<1% Fructose, 4%+ Glucose Orange Flavor…..<2% Fructose, 3%+ Glucose I sell it or I can put you in touch with Bill Gookin, the biochemist marathoner who invented it 27 years ago. I wouldn’t back pack or play Respectfully, Terry V. Waggoner                  

I don’t want to sound like Mr Wizard or something but now I’m curious about why no sugar. Fruit, milk, bread and candy all has different kinds of sugar. If you want a fluid replacement drink without sugar, you’re a candidate for a trip to the drinking fountain. If taste is what you want, get ANY recipe and substitute an enjoyable quantity of nutrasweet for sugar. I think the sugar is valuable to keep you from depleting. A chewable vitamin C before running would take care of any remaining advantage of a sports drink over water. J Jay Jewitt Gulf Coast Internet Mall http://www.gcnetmall.com

Jay, sorry to take additional bandwidth, but my original late-night posting on Gookinaid E.R.G. had an error. The "E" is for "Electrolyte" and not "Energy". I cancelled the article and rewrote it immediately but it must not have hit all the services. The correction is important because Gookinaid E.R.G. makes your water WORK better by eliminating lower G.I. involvement. Water gets into your system much quicker and cramping is virtually eliminated. No full feeling. My experience is over three years in the high Sierra where proper hydration is vital. The glucose is an important distinction because the common sports activity drinks use glucose *polymers* and digestion is involved. The idea that Gookin had was to replace what the body loses (electrolytes) during exercise and in the proportion lost. My ’selling’ of Gookinaid E.R.G. is a hobby and my motive is to get the best drink possible into tummies. My kids are athletes so I’ve provided the product to soccer teams, softballers, tennis teams and have given it to cramping, dehydrated hikers. There’s no real ‘big buck’ opportunity involved for me here. It’s just fun because so few people have ever heard of this product and I had the opportunity to meet Bill Gookin and thank him for his work. Soooo, if anybody wants to contact him (he’s the biochemist, not me) and get more info, call him in San Diego at 619.689.1959. Try Gookinaid E.R.G. It sells for around a buck a quart or about $10.00 for container that makes 20 2470 Stearns, ste.274             Simi Valley, CA. 93063

Response:

Water?

: i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports : drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again!

Response:

Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear enough……. I am looking for recipes for a sports drink, using orange juice instead of sugar.  I would like to use something on my longer runs, but I can’t really use sugar.  Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Waggoner) writes: i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again! Gookinaid E.R.G. (Energy Replacement Glucose) Competition flavor……5% Glucose Lemonade and Fruit Punch flavors ….<1% Fructose, 4%+ Glucose Orange Flavor…..<2% Fructose, 3%+ Glucose I sell it or I can put you in touch with Bill Gookin, the biochemist marathoner who invented it 27 years ago. I wouldn’t back pack or play Respectfully, Terry V. Waggoner, Financial Consultant-Western U.S.                   ‘A Mountain is Something You Don’t Wanta Mess With’ {Quote attributed to Frank Zappa – ’sanitized’ by me} Pardon me,  I thought glucose was sugar.  The original poster wants something without sugar. Nancy  

I don’t want to sound like Mr Wizard or something but now I’m curious about why no sugar. Fruit, milk, bread and candy all has different kinds of sugar. If you want a fluid replacement drink without sugar, you’re a candidate for a trip to the drinking fountain. If taste is what you want, get ANY recipe and substitute an enjoyable quantity of nutrasweet for sugar. I think the sugar is valuable to keep you from depleting. A chewable vitamin C before running would take care of any remaining advantage of a sports drink over water. J Jay Jewitt Gulf Coast Internet Mall http://www.gcnetmall.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Waggoner) writes: i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again! Gookinaid E.R.G. (Energy Replacement Glucose) Competition flavor……5% Glucose Lemonade and Fruit Punch flavors ….<1% Fructose, 4%+ Glucose Orange Flavor…..<2% Fructose, 3%+ Glucose I sell it or I can put you in touch with Bill Gookin, the biochemist marathoner who invented it 27 years ago. I wouldn’t back pack or play Respectfully, Terry V. Waggoner, Financial Consultant-Western U.S.                   ‘A Mountain is Something You Don’t Wanta Mess With’ {Quote attributed to Frank Zappa – ’sanitized’ by me}

Pardon me,  I thought glucose was sugar.  The original poster wants something without sugar. Nancy  

Response:

i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again!

Gookinaid E.R.G. (Electrolyte Replacement Glucose) Competition flavor……5% Glucose Lemonade and Fruit Punch flavors ….<1% Fructose, 4%+ Glucose Orange Flavor…..<2% Fructose, 3%+ Glucose I sell it or I can put you in touch with Bill Gookin, the biochemist marathoner who invented it 27 years ago. I wouldn’t back pack or play Respectfully, Terry V. Waggoner, Financial Consultant-Western U.S.                                     ‘A Mountain is Something You Don’t Wanta Mess With’ {Quote attributed to Frank Zappa – ’sanitized’ by me}

Response:

i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again!

Response:

i know we’ve been through this before, but i need a recipe for a sports drink without sugar in it.  I can’t use sugar.  Thanks again!

Gookinaid E.R.G. (Energy Replacement Glucose) Competition flavor……5% Glucose Lemonade and Fruit Punch flavors ….<1% Fructose, 4%+ Glucose Orange Flavor…..<2% Fructose, 3%+ Glucose I sell it or I can put you in touch with Bill Gookin, the biochemist marathoner who invented it 27 years ago. I wouldn’t back pack or play Respectfully, Terry V. Waggoner, Financial Consultant-Western U.S.                                     ‘A Mountain is Something You Don’t Wanta Mess With’ {Quote attributed to Frank Zappa – ’sanitized’ by me}

Response:

Question:

I need to ask, so please respond: Does anyone out there think that the name Ironman should be changed in response to the increased popularity and participation within triathlon by women.

You are in serious need of a life!  The race is IRONMAN. I’ve heard from several women IRONMAN finishers that the name should stay the same. This "Disease" that is currently sweeping our world, known as the ANY complaint from women (you ask if anyone has complained) you raise the issue that the a more inclusive name should be sought. Enough already!  Get you bike out of the garage and go for a ride. You need more time training and less time thinking about non-problems.  I have no idea as to what kind of replacement name we could use. I’m just curious to know, has anyone participated in the races and heard of a complaint that the name may have offended people??

YOur suggestion of searching for a new name for the premier race in our sport is ludicrous. I’m curious of your motives since the Ironman races have equal proze money etc for women and men. It is one of the more equitable competitions I’m aware of. Men and women compete together onthe same course at the same time. I’m all for equality. What I will not stand for is pandering to some alleged minority. (besides, women aren’t the minority on this planet anyway. Aren’t they about 51% of the population) Thanks, Doubledare

I double dare you to get a grip pal! Marcus Perry "TriDork" ** Give whenever you CAN…..Take only when you HAVE to. ** ** M. Perry     circa 1980 **

Response:

snip I double dare you to get a grip pal! Marcus Perry "TriDork"

Marcus, Marcus, Marcus I think our new playmate Doubledare was referring not to the gender bias of the name but that it unfairly advantages one out of many highly qualified elements.  If one counts Technetium then we have 92 equal candidates that all deserve the same degree of consideration.  Lest we forget, there should probably be some sort of ‘affirmative’ action’ program for the poor blighted ‘transuranic’ elements 93 through 109 which must bear the stigma of being artificially created in the lab. Hence, in the true spirit of political correctness, we should thank brother Doubledare and begin a rotation much like they do with hurricanes.  Next year ‘HYDROGENMAN’!!! Bruce (waitin for LEADMAN) Ackman

Response:

In response to changing the name of Ironman to something politically correct seems like as TRIDORK put it a non issue.  What I think is a real issue is all the women who enter Ironman races and finish ahead of me. Now that really burns my a**. RB

Response:

I don’t think that within the tri community people are offended by the race being called IRONMAN. It certainly doesn’t bother me. When I tell people outside the tri world I’m a triathlete they willl ask if Ihave done the IRonman…and then realizing that I am a woman will usually correct themselves and say or Ironwoman? I usually respond, "No it’s called the Ironman." But like Cathy I sometimes sign off my notes as Ironwoman or Ironchick or Ironbabe or Irongal.

I like the name of the race being called Ironman, and like Lisa, it is only the non-triathlete crowd that always seem to ask me if I am offended by the name. Janet

Response:

(doubledare) writes: I need to ask, so please respond: Does anyone out there think that the name Ironman should be changed in response to the increased popularity and participation within triathlon by women. I have no idea as to what kind of replacement name we could use. I’m just curious to know, has anyone participated in the races and heard of a complaint that the name may have offended people?? Thanks, Doubledare

I wonder if Marvel Comics is offended.  They certainly came out with the Ironman character way before Ironman Hawaii was created.  So yes, Doubledare, I do believe someone somewhere is offended by the USE of Ironman, but probably not too many triathletes.  I always did wonder who was behind that Iron Mask of Ironman.  Could be a woman I suppose. Certainly the World Triathon Corporation has no interest in changing the name since they make so much $$ from the licensing of the Ironman logo (to Timex and others).  IRONic though that a woman, Julie Moss, did more to popularize Ironman than Dave Scott, Mark Allen, Scott Tinley, Scott Molina, or Greg Welch — all male winners of Ironman Hawaii. Tucker Newberry

Response:

You are in serious need of a life!  The race is IRONMAN. I’ve heard from several women IRONMAN finishers that the name should stay the same. . . You need more time training and less time thinking about non-problems. . . I’m curious of your motives  . . . I double dare you to get a grip pal! Marcus Perry "TriDork"

because he is still the best Ironman of them all . . .but I only asked, not to offend, not because of my own selfish nature, I was just curious. Relax pal, I bet when you typed your response, your heartrate your was in its upper limit training zone – why ride if you can accomplish that (Lending credibility to the notion and future success of the almighty armchair athletes – Way to go!)!! Cheers Doubledare   P.S. I am laughing at the number of people that have replied to this "May the ‘Man’ rule in Kona"

Response:

I am almost sick to death of political correctness.

I remember when this thread came up last year. My comment then was that I don’t mind at all that the race is called Ironman. However, when I complete that distance, I call myself an IronWoman. I met a lot of opposition from some gents who thought all finishers should be called Ironmen regardless of gender. Cathy Corning

Response:

I’m sure doubledare is chuckling over how many people’s goat s/he got! I had a chuckle myself.  :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sam Km40….cheers!  

Response:

I need to ask, so please respond: Does anyone out there think that the name Ironman should be changed in response to the increased popularity and participation within triathlon by women. I have no idea as to what kind of replacement name we could use. I’m just curious to know, has anyone participated in the races and heard of a complaint that the name may have offended people?? Thanks, Doubledare I am almost sick to death of political correctness.

Ditto. I don’t think that any serious triathletes find the name Ironman offensive. It is (arguably) the pinnacle of the sport. Part of the mystique & accomplishment surrounding those that have done it, & the race itself, is that   virtually everyone recognises the Hawaii Ironman. I mean, if you ask most couch potatoes what triathlon is all about, they all seem to think of Ironman (i.e. a huge, tremendous all day type effort.) I guess you know how I feel now…

I don’t think that within the tri community people are offended by the race being called IRONMAN. It certainly doesn’t bother me. When I tell people outside the tri world I’m a triathlete they willl ask if Ihave done the IRonman…and then realizing that I am a woman will usually correct themselves and say or Ironwoman? I usually respond, "No it’s called the Ironman." But like Cathy I sometimes sign off my notes as Ironwoman or Ironchick or Ironbabe or Irongal. Newspapers that have writen articles about me, have referred to me as an Ironwoman or Woman of Steel (okay gag!) Whatever I call myself or others identify me as doesn’t matter, but the race IS the IRONMAN…it’s a state of mind not disectable into gender.   Stewart Ralph Canberra, ACT Hoping to do Ironman Australia next year

see ya there Stewart? Or maybe sooner at Sri Chimnoy?                                              o Lisa Lynam                                  < /           / TRI IT Communications               –0    /          /     93 Park St. W                    (*)/ (*)             /  TRI  

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Why not "Ironhuman"…  but this would exclude animals and plants that may want to participate in the future…  ;) Come on! Before the PC movement, nobody felt bad using "man" or men" meaning "human being"! — Pascal Forget http://www.cam.org/~pforget/

Response:

Funny thread. I like the name of the race being called Ironman, and like Lisa, it is only the non-triathlete crowd that always seem to ask me if I am offended by the name.

I never really thought about it until this thread came up. My take on the issue is that if the women participants were generally in favour of a name change I probably would be open-wided about it. Then again, seeing as how I haven’t done an IM yet I really have no claim to argue at all. By the informal survey here, it looks like women IM athletes are *not* in favour of a change. When I tried to hypothesize how I would interpret Ironman if I were a woman competitor it went something like this. "In most other sports, the female version of the sport is a diminutive variation of the male event. In Ironman, we do the same damn distances on the same damn course as the men! By calling it Ironman it is less likely for the layperson to mistake my efforts as any less than the men’s." arthur — Choices don’t scare me. However, a lack of choices does.

Response:

  Alot of stuff that I cut out . . .   but I write "Bravo on the level of wit!!"

Response:

In response to changing the name of Ironman to something politically correct seems like as TRIDORK put it a non issue.  

Yes it’s anon issue! Doubledare is probalby a bigger weeinie than TriDork. (oops, that’s not possible) What I think is a real issue is all the women who enter Ironman races and finish ahead of me. Now that really burns my a**.

You’ve got it all wrong. Being beaten by women is good. In fact I’ve paid good money for that  I respect women as equals. If they train harder, push harder, are more dedicated than I etc, then they are completely deserving of finishing ahead of me. Now for a completely non PC comment. I like starting ahead of the women but finishing after them. It means a steady stream of well toned, often very good looking (remember triathletes are good looking thread?)women pass me duing the race. If I have a choice of being passed by good looking guys or good looking women, I for one would prefer to be passed by the women. I’m a hetero sexual male and prefer to look at women. Maybe in this day and age I should apologize for that,….but I’m not going to. RB

– Marcus Perry "TriDork" ** Give whenever you CAN…..Take only when you HAVE to. ** ** M. Perry     circa 1980 **

Response:

I need to ask, so please respond: Does anyone out there think that the name Ironman should be changed in response to the increased popularity and participation within triathlon by women. I have

   I think women’s participation in the event is documented in the book "Triathlon: A Triple-Fitness Sport" (was that the title?), which was authored by a woman (was it Sally Edwards?) I do remember somewhere in a tri book that’s a few years old that:    "A man who has done the Ironman Triathlon is called an Ironman. A woman who has done the Ironman Triathlon is also called an Ironman." no idea as to what kind of replacement name we could use. I’m just curious to know, has anyone participated in the races and heard of a complaint that the name may have offended people??

   I’m sure just the idea that anyone has ever swum, biked OR run that far, much less all three in one day, has offended some people.    I know I’ve personally managed to offend some people, and while the’ve made some really odd suggestions, no one suggested I change my name.    Sigh. I remember the good old days when PC stood for Personal Computer… Ben Bradley, Design Engineer Schlumberger Industries

Response:

Maybe the PC crowd would want to call it the "Ironperson" but what letter would you put the dot over? Ciao, Tom

Response:

I need to ask, so please respond: Does anyone out there think that the name Ironman should be changed in response to the increased popularity and participation within triathlon

by women. I have no idea as to what kind of replacement name we could use. I’m just curious to know, has anyone participated in the races and heard of a complaint that the name may have offended people?? Thanks, Doubledare

I am almost sick to death of political correctness. I don’t think that any serious triathletes find the name Ironman offensive. It is (arguably) the pinnacle of the sport. Part of the mystique & accomplishment surrounding those that have done it, & the race itself, is that   virtually everyone recognises the Hawaii Ironman. I mean, if you ask most couch potatoes what triathlon is all about, they all seem to think of Ironman (i.e. a huge, tremendous all day type effort.) I guess you know how I feel now… Stewart Ralph Canberra, ACT Hoping to do Ironman Australia next year

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C’mon Tri-Dork, I am anxiously awaiting your reply to your countryperson. Augie Calabrese – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need to ask, so please respond: Does anyone out there think that the name Ironman should be changed in response to the increased popularity and participation within triathlon by women.

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sam Km40….cheers!  

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I need to ask, so please respond:

Why? Does anyone out there think that the name Ironman should be changed in response to the increased popularity and participation within triathlon by women.

NO, and I am a woman.   Anyone, man or woman, who could be so myopic about the event to want to cause such a stink just doesn’t "get it".  God, as Km40 posted, "Political correctness rears its ugly head."   AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

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I need to ask, so please respond: Does anyone out there think that the name Ironman should be changed in response to the increased popularity and participation within triathlon by women. I have no idea as to what kind of replacement name we could use. I’m just curious to know, has anyone participated in the races and heard of a complaint that the name may have offended people?? Thanks, Doubledare

Haven’t heard of any complaints.  I know that the Powerman changed its name to POWERwoMAN, but everyone including the women kept calling the series Powerman.  As a man, I don’t take offense to a womans Danskin series excluding men.  Most people (I think) are above griping over a title that has been used and respected for a long time, regardless of any reference to gender. That my opinion. Dr. T

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Question:

I am planning to run the SFO HM this Sunday (28). How difficult is the course? Any suggestions? Thanks in advance. gopi

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I am planning to run the SFO HM this Sunday (28). How difficult is the course? Any suggestions? Thanks in advance. gopi

Is this the Home Depot 1/2? Starts in Golden Gate Park, runs around the park a little hilly, goes down the Great Highway to and around the lake, flat back to Golden Gate Park, up hill into the park and finish. Not a tough course. Probably cool. Never saw much wind. Ray Mascia

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I am planning to run the SFO HM this Sunday (28). How difficult is the course? Any suggestions? In addition to Raymond’s comments, I have a short synopsis on my tripage. The direct URL is:

http://www.slip.net/~leeway/marathons.html Other running sites and events can be found via the homepage. Hope it doesn’t rain! Lee Rudin San Francisco Bay Area Triathlon Training Sites http://www.slip.net/~leeway/

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Question:

Hi! My name is Barb and I am a Botany major in my third year at Brandon.  I have been interested in triathalon for a while, but now I have made the decision to try training and competing. I have some background in weight training and swimming, but I have no idea how to go about setting up a training program for myself!  I am interested in hearing how others got started, and what they have found works for them.  Also, there must be an enthusiast magazine; is it any good, and how/where would I subscribe?  Thanks!                                 Barb

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Hi! My name is Barb and I am a Botany major in my third year at Brandon.  I have been interested in triathalon for a while, but now I have made the decision to try training and competing. I have some background in weight training and swimming, but I have no idea how to go about setting up a training program for myself!  I am interested in hearing how others got started, and what they have found works for them.

The main thing you want to do is find some other people who are running and biking and join their group.  For starters I would try to do at a minimum 3 run workouts, 2 bike workouts and 2 swim workouts per week. They don’t have to be killer workouts, instead you are just training your body to adapt to doing all three sports. I would also try to work-up do be able to do the following distances: 5K running, 18-20mi biking and 1000yd of swimming. Hopefully, it should be easy to find training partners at a university. Also the cross-country, swimming and cycling (?) coaches might lend you a hand as well.  One thing to keep in mind if you get hooked up with pure runners or bikers…, you won’t need to put in the kind of mileage/workouts that they do because you are cross-training. If you have any specific questions, I’ll be happy to answer them. Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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Hi Barb! You might try Inside Triathlon or Triathlete magazines…..they can be a great help to new triathletes. good luck! sam

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My youngest daughter talked me into my first triathlon last summer. She was home from college and being her normal annoying self i.e. finding projects for me.  This habit of hers dates back to 3rd grade science projects – we couldn’t just do the baking soda foaming volcano thing that the boys had oohed and aahed over, it had to be something with vegetables and electricity and you get the idea. Anyway I ended up doing three sprints last year and I got hooked.  I’m actually trying to follow a training program this year. The book "Swim, Bike, Run" by Town & Kearney has been a great starting place for me. Good luck. GWassil

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I suggest you join Tri Fed, you get Triathlete magazine when you do, which has good info including a new triathlete section.  Next, get a copy of Rob Sleamaker’s book "Serious Training for Serious Athletes" which is an excellent reference in layman’s terms on how to design a training program,  it’s about $14 and you can get it at Border’s Bookstore or order it from the back of Triathlete magazine.  If you think you’re going to stick with it I also strongly urge you to get a heartrate monitor.  You’ll be glad you did.  You may be able to get a Polar Accurex II from Tri Fed cheaper than anyone else, call them.  Finally, try the library for books, there’s one called Swim,Bike,Run that’s pretty good.  Finally,Finally, try it you’ll be glad you did.  ps join a masters swim group. Steve McNamara  

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Steve McNamara writes: I suggest you join Tri Fed, you get Triathlete magazine when you do, which has good info including a new triathlete section.

Let me correct you, please. When you join Tri-Fed, you have the option of paying extra money to get a subscription to Triathlete magazine. IMO, it’s not worth it. Use the money instead to get a subscription to Inside Triathlon. It is much more oriented toward real triathletes, doesn’t call us ho-hum, and doesn’t tell us that drafting is good for the sport. Whew, I feel better having gotten that gripe off my chest. Cathy Corning

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