Question:

Well not exactly, the aero helmet shape is only appropriate in time trials and triathalons.  How much more specific can you get than that?

So, the laws of physics alter based on the sport?  Lowered drag is of benefit to anyone, even wheel suckers, because everybody eventually experiences being at the head of the line at least once in life.  Do roadies have their eyes surgically relocated in their skull so they can hold their head differently enough to alter this and still see where they are going? Of course at the speed most people do triathalons they really don’t get much benefit from a aero helmet.  You get a lot more benefit at 25mph than at 16mph.

Hmmmm. And it’s a safe bet that a dedicated cyclist, who has NOT just swam a mile, has a better chance of seeing those beneficial speeds.

Response:

One could argue that mass start races are generally longer than TTs, making ventilation more important than aerodynamics. Alternatively, one could argue that the risks of crashing in a mass start event are greater, thus favoring a different shape more conducive to sliding. Not that I’m necessarily arguing either thing…just saying that one could. Andy Coggan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well not exactly, the aero helmet shape is only appropriate in time trials and triathalons.  How much more specific can you get than that? So, the laws of physics alter based on the sport?  Lowered drag is of benefit to anyone, even wheel suckers, because everybody eventually experiences being at the head of the line at least once in life.  Do roadies have their eyes surgically relocated in their skull so they can hold their head differently enough to alter this and still see where they are going? Of course at the speed most people do triathalons they really don’t get much benefit from a aero helmet.  You get a lot more benefit at 25mph than at 16mph. Hmmmm. And it’s a safe bet that a dedicated cyclist, who has NOT just swam a mile, has a better chance of seeing those beneficial speeds.

Response:

You should read some articles by John Cobb Brian.  If you want to get a benefit out of a time trial helmet you have to hold your head in just the right position.  If you don’t then the elongated shape of the helmet actually is less aero than a regular helmet. In road races aero helmets are not much help because you can’t assume the time trial position and because much of the time you are in a pack. My guess is that the elongated shape would be a net detriment in a normal road race. And that is not even taking into account the lack of ventilation. Lets face it, if TT style helmets were a benefit in a race then you would see them in ALL the pro races.  Instead you see them in none except the TT events. By the way Brian, you come off sounding like an ass with that laws of physics comment, especially since in this case you are 100% wrong in your pompous conclusion.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well not exactly, the aero helmet shape is only appropriate in time trials and triathalons.  How much more specific can you get than that? So, the laws of physics alter based on the sport?  Lowered drag is of benefit to anyone, even wheel suckers, because everybody eventually experiences being at the head of the line at least once in life.  Do roadies have their eyes surgically relocated in their skull so they can hold their head differently enough to alter this and still see where they are going? Of course at the speed most people do triathalons they really don’t get much benefit from a aero helmet.  You get a lot more benefit at 25mph than at 16mph. Hmmmm. And it’s a safe bet that a dedicated cyclist, who has NOT just swam a mile, has a better chance of seeing those beneficial speeds.

Response:

HIC (Head Impact Criteria) is commonly used but I’ve never heard it mentioned in bicycle helmets. There are differences in skulls but not divided by sports participation. Devotees of given sports might believe some interesting things about cranial depth of devotees of other sports.

Yes , the term "bone -headed" comes to mind but I’m sure it refers to intellectual capability or lack there of. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An HIC of 1000 is a fairly commonly used standard where a skull can be good for 300gs for a very short time interval (.0036 sec). This is derived from a deceleration from 20 ft/sec to 0 ft/sec in .0036 sec over a distance of .375" assuming a 0 to 300 to 0g spike. A close approximation for falling off your bike and hitting your head with .375" of helmet cushioning. That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t address justification for the marketing hype of triathlon-specific helmets, now does it?

Yes you are right. There is no difference in the considerations for there to be a tri-specific helmet. Phil Holman

Response:

Well not exactly, the aero helmet shape is only appropriate in time trials and triathalons.  How much more specific can you get than that? Of course at the speed most people do triathalons they really don’t get much benefit from a aero helmet.  You get a lot more benefit at 25mph than at 16mph.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes you are right. There is no difference in the considerations for there to be a tri-specific helmet. Phil Holman

Response:

HIC (Head Impact Criteria) is commonly used but I’ve never heard it mentioned in bicycle helmets. There are differences in skulls but not divided by sports participation. An HIC of 1000 is a fairly commonly used standard where a skull can be good for 300gs for a very short time interval (.0036 sec). This is derived from a deceleration from 20 ft/sec to 0 ft/sec in .0036 sec over a distance of .375" assuming a 0 to 300 to 0g spike. A close approximation for falling off your bike and hitting your head with .375" of helmet cushioning. Phil Holman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just out of curiosity,  what design aspects of the tri helmet are different from a regular helmet?  steeper geometry?;) Yes, I’m particularly interested in the difference between a triathlete’s skull and a roadie’s, as it pertains to helmet fit and impact protection.  Phrenology, anyone?

Response:

HIC (Head Impact Criteria) is commonly used but I’ve never heard it mentioned in bicycle helmets. There are differences in skulls but not divided by sports participation.

Devotees of given sports might believe some interesting things about cranial depth of devotees of other sports. An HIC of 1000 is a fairly commonly used standard where a skull can be good for 300gs for a very short time interval (.0036 sec). This is derived from a deceleration from 20 ft/sec to 0 ft/sec in .0036 sec over a distance of .375" assuming a 0 to 300 to 0g spike. A close approximation for falling off your bike and hitting your head with .375" of helmet cushioning.

That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t address justification for the marketing hype of triathlon-specific helmets, now does it?

Response:

I think you guys are being a little rough.  There haven’t been any ANSI-approved tri/tt helmets made in a LONG time…  I have seen used Vortex and Aerohead helmets selling for $250-300 on ebay and there are a LOT of bidders.  Now you can buy a NEW ANSI-approved aero helmet for less than half of what used helmets were going for on ebay…  Seems like some people will always find something to complain about…  Did you happen to notice that the name of the poster was HITECHBIKES.COM? Does it surprise you that they are "selling" something?  As for the cracks about price, $120 seems pretty good considering the alternatives.

Response:

Like everything for TTs and Tris… it’s a matter of how much you want to spent to shave off a few seconds. I’m certain the bucket that Lance wears is a few dollars more than $120. That being said… he could wear a suitcase on this head and smoke pretty much any triathlete. 99% of speed is the athlete and his/her position. … but it’s always good to have cool toys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon I think you guys are being a little rough.  There haven’t been any ANSI-approved tri/tt helmets made in a LONG time…  I have seen used Vortex and Aerohead helmets selling for $250-300 on ebay and there are a LOT of bidders.  Now you can buy a NEW ANSI-approved aero helmet for less than half of what used helmets were going for on ebay…  Seems like some people will always find something to complain about…  Did you happen to notice that the name of the poster was HITECHBIKES.COM? Does it surprise you that they are "selling" something?  As for the cracks about price, $120 seems pretty good considering the alternatives.

Response:

I thought it was the 650C wheels? Andy Coggan (P.S. Last I heard LG wasn’t even sure they were going to market their helmet…has the decision been made to go ahead?)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Finally, someone has come out with a real aero tri helmet. Louis Garneau, the leader in team uniforms in the world is now making a terrific aero helmet. just out of curiosity,  what design aspects of the tri helmet are different from a regular helmet?  steeper geometry?;) todd sandiego

Response:

My bet is that you can buy those helmets anywhere they carry Louis Garneau stuff.  You might have to order it but so what.  Also I thought the price was supposed to be $95 not $120.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you guys are being a little rough.  There haven’t been any ANSI-approved tri/tt helmets made in a LONG time…  I have seen used Vortex and Aerohead helmets selling for $250-300 on ebay and there are a LOT of bidders.  Now you can buy a NEW ANSI-approved aero helmet for less than half of what used helmets were going for on ebay…  Seems like some people will always find something to complain about…  Did you happen to notice that the name of the poster was HITECHBIKES.COM? Does it surprise you that they are "selling" something?  As for the cracks about price, $120 seems pretty good considering the alternatives.

Response:

There is certainly a reason for that – A.N.S.I. is not the standard for bicycle helmets.  If you are speaking of helmets that are lkegal in the USA, only CPSC approved helmets may be sold in the US since March 10, 1999.

CPSC standards, like DOT standards for motorcycle helmets, are next to worthless rubber stamps, since helmet manufacturers lobby heavily to have government standards watered down.  ANSI and Snell do meaningful testing and produce standards that are useful for determining whether a helmet is actually effective.

Response:

I think you guys are being a little rough.  There haven’t been any ANSI-approved tri/tt helmets made in a LONG time…

There is certainly a reason for that – A.N.S.I. is not the standard for bicycle helmets.  If you are speaking of helmets that are lkegal in the USA, only CPSC approved helmets may be sold in the US since March 10, 1999. Charlie Crawford USAT Commissioner of Officials

Response:

just out of curiosity,  what design aspects of the tri helmet are different from a regular helmet?  steeper geometry?;)

Yes, I’m particularly interested in the difference between a triathlete’s skull and a roadie’s, as it pertains to helmet fit and impact protection.  Phrenology, anyone?

Response:

Did you happen to notice that the name of the poster was HITECHBIKES.COM? Does it surprise you that they are "selling" something?

a) My newsreader doesn’t show the address of the poster, only the subject, before you read the post. b) Having a commercial e-mail address is not a license to spam. -Harold

Response:

Hitechbikes only post to RST, how is that constitute spamming? Kwan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did you happen to notice that the name of the poster was HITECHBIKES.COM? Does it surprise you that they are "selling" something? a) My newsreader doesn’t show the address of the poster, only the subject, before you read the post. b) Having a commercial e-mail address is not a license to spam. -Harold

Response:

<snip That being said… he could wear a suitcase on this head and smoke pretty much any triathlete. 99% of speed is the athlete and his/her position. … but it’s always good to have cool toys.

Oh great now we’re going to see posts like: AD: TRI SUITCASES IN STOCK Cheers S. Austin

Response:

Hitechbikes only post to RST, how is that constitute spamming? Kwan

Not that it bothers me but the commonly excepted rule here on rst is to write "AD" or "FS", "FA" ect…in the subject header.   FWIW I aint bakin my head in that oven to shave a couple seconds.   Tim buaidh no bas

Response:

I bet if you painted them us nicely and made them sort of aero looking, It would sell like hotcakes! Could be handy too… bring your gear to the transition area in it… then wear on the bike. Hmmmmm… I see a business venture here – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon <snip That being said… he could wear a suitcase on this head and smoke pretty much any triathlete. 99% of speed is the athlete and his/her position. … but it’s always good to have cool toys. Oh great now we’re going to see posts like: AD: TRI SUITCASES IN STOCK Cheers S. Austin

Response:

Finally, someone has come out with a real aero tri helmet. Louis Garneau, the leader in team uniforms in the world is now making a terrific aero helmet. Comes with a visor for $120.00. We have only 12 coming in so order yours today. HI-TECHBIKES.COM toll free 1-888-561-bike

Response:

SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM and Tri Helmets. Maybe you should make clear in your subject line that your selling something. -Harold – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Finally, someone has come out with a real aero tri helmet. Louis Garneau, the leader in team uniforms in the world is now making a terrific aero helmet. Comes with a visor for $120.00. We have only 12 coming in so order yours today. HI-TECHBIKES.COM toll free 1-888-561-bike

Response:

Finally, someone has come out with a real aero tri helmet. Louis Garneau, the leader in team uniforms in the world is now making a terrific aero helmet.

just out of curiosity,  what design aspects of the tri helmet are different from a regular helmet?  steeper geometry?;) todd sandiego

Response:

… Finally, someone has come out with a real aero tri helmet. Louis Garneau, the leader in team uniforms in the world is now making a terrific aero helmet. just out of curiosity,  what design aspects of the tri helmet are different from a regular helmet?  steeper geometry?;) todd sandiego

It’s the same helmet, they paint it a different colour, stick the word aero on it and double the price. Phil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

what design aspects of the tri helmet are different from a regular helmet?  steeper geometry?;)

for our POINTED heads :-0:-)

Response:

Seen ics of these. Very aero shape like the Tour TT helmets, however NO air vents. Not so good for us Ironman distance racers or those of us that train and race in those sunny desert areas! B.Oliver

Response:

Question:

Peter, congratulations on making your goal time and enjoying the experience. Thanks for the detailed report–as I count the days until my first marathon (Oct. 28), I’m inspired by reports like yours. Cheers. Chris Smith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snip stuff about the organization of the Queen City Marathon) As I mentioned, this was my first marathon, having run 3 half-marathons before. I’m a 43 year old runner who only took up the sport seriously in March. My first half-marathon was in June, 2000, and my "training" consisted of 20 minute jogs around the neighborhood 3-4 times a week in tennis shoes. I ran the half in those same tennis shoes, and paid dearly for it for about 4 weeks after. Nevertheless, I managed to get through in 1:58, under my time goal of 2 hours. This year I knew better, and started training with a group in March. Having dropped 10 pounds, and logging considerably more mileage I managed a respectable 1:50 at the June, 2001 race. A number of runners from our group discussed the idea of a fall run. Minneapolis was already full, so the idea of running in the inaugural Queen City Marathon took hold. Unfortunately, or so I thought at the time, they did not have a half marathon (having decided to concentrate on the full marathon in their first year to make sure they got it right). Frankly, the idea of running 26.2 miles was a completely intimidating prospect to someone who had never run more than 14 miles. However, I went for it, and don’t regret it for a minute. I trained hard through a hot summer, running 5 days a week, putting in long runs with the group of 14-20 miles every Sunday morning, losing another 10 pounds. My wife soon complained of becoming a "Marathon widow". By the time we started our taper a few weeks ago, we were talking of "just a 14-miler today". I set a goal of 3:40 for the marathon. OK, I admit, I had fantasies that if I grew wings and had a good tailwind behind me I could get in under 3:30. We ran a 10-miler at that pace (4:58/km, or 8:00/mile) a week before the big event, and I felt really good at the end of it. Anyway, it’s highly unlikely anybody much cares about this except me, but here is how it went, broken down into 7 km intervals. km      average pace/km 0-7       4:58     Very cold at the starting line, felt good to be moving 7-14      5:00     Getting into the run, enjoying the scenery 14-21     5:01     Feeling good, concentrating on staying on pace Hooray! Got to the 21.1 km mark in 1:45, a new personal best for the half , and right on pace for a 3:30 finish. I felt pretty good at this point too, keeping a nice steady rhythm. Ah, but things were about to change. The tailwind I was hoping for turned into a headwind, gusting to 40 km/hr on the return part of the trail. That, combined with onsetting fatigue, meant my dream time will have to wait for another race. Here’s how the rest went. 21-28     5:12     Starting to slow down 28-35     5:29     Definitely feeling the effects of the wind and fatigue 35-42.2   5:27     Legs are like lead weights for most of this portion Finish time: 3:39:12 (average pace 5:11/km) I didn’t make my dream time, but did make the realistic goal I’d set. Also finished upright and smiling, which can’t be underestimated. I felt great, and eager to to it again, though maybe not this week Peter

Response:

….  Also finished upright and smiling, which can’t be underestimated. I felt great, and eager to to it again, though maybe not this week Peter

Congratulations! And it sounds like you found the most important part of running! Dot

Response:

[snip] Finish time: 3:39:12 (average pace 5:11/km) I didn’t make my dream time, but did make the realistic goal I’d set. Also finished upright and smiling, which can’t be underestimated. I felt great, and eager to to it again, though maybe not this week

Fantastic result, Peter. Congratulations. Besides, you wouldn’t want to hit your dream time the first time out. That would leave you nothing to shoot for on your next one! Thanks for sharing your experience with us. John London, ON

Response:

21-28     5:12     Starting to slow down 28-35     5:29     Definitely feeling the effects of the wind and fatigue 35-42.2   5:27     Legs are like lead weights for most of this portion Finish time: 3:39:12 (average pace 5:11/km)

Great race.  I recognize the effects of the last 14 km from my own races.   Like carrying dead animals on your legs. In the spring in Edmonton, I would have danced in the streets with 3:39 but alas I faded to a 3:47.  Sounds like Regina did a fine job for the first marathon.  I’ll note that for future marathon attempts. — Lorne Sundby

Response:

Full marathon participants received a medal and will be mailed a 5×7 finish line photo. A large number of volunteers helped with manning the aid stations, directing traffic, providing entertainment along the way, and generally making sure everyone had a great time. I didn’t make my dream time, but did make the realistic goal I’d set. Also finished upright and smiling, which can’t be underestimated. I felt great, and eager to to it again, though maybe not this week

Peter, Great Job, great report, and it looks like you had a lot of fun. I’m glad you mentioned the volunteers also.  That is something I forget about too often. We had quite a few bands on my "first" (correct length) marathon, despite the rain, and it was pretty neat to clap for some of them because they would use their sound system to give you encouragement back. Thanks,         Roger

Response:

Any results online? Ken Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

Response:

Any results online? Ken Parker Runner’s Web <http://www.runnersweb.com A running and Triathlon Resource Portal

They should be posted as soon as they’ve been finalized, at the QCM website (www.queencitymarathononline.com) and I think also at www.sportstats.ca/main.html

Response:

The first Queen City Marathon was held in Regina, Saskatchewan, on Sunday, September 23. The organizers had a vision to create the premiere running event in Saskatchewan, and to that end put a great deal of effort into the organization of the race. Almost 600 full marathoners took part, including many out-of-towners, and many who were running the marathon for the first time (myself included). In addition, there were relay teams, with anywhere from 2-5 runners.  The course itself is quite flat, and is run mostly along bicycle/foot paths through the extensive park system in the city. It passes a lake and river system, which were beautiful at this time of the year with the fall colours already turning leaves to gold and brown. The race organization was superb, with many things runners look for. There were markers at every kilometer and every mile, and aid stations every 2-3 km with both water and powerade.  Electronic timers were at the 1 mile and 21.1 mile points, and final results were posted together with split times, chip time, and gun time shortly as each group of 20 or so runners finished. The course was certified according to international IAAF/AIMS standards, which means the results can be used as qualifying times for the Boston Marathon. This makes the Queens City Marathon one of a handful of certified Canadian marathons. Full marathon participants received a medal and will be mailed a 5×7 finish line photo. A large number of volunteers helped with manning the aid stations, directing traffic, providing entertainment along the way, and generally making sure everyone had a great time. As I mentioned, this was my first marathon, having run 3 half-marathons before. I’m a 43 year old runner who only took up the sport seriously in March. My first half-marathon was in June, 2000, and my "training" consisted of 20 minute jogs around the neighborhood 3-4 times a week in tennis shoes. I ran the half in those same tennis shoes, and paid dearly for it for about 4 weeks after. Nevertheless, I managed to get through in 1:58, under my time goal of 2 hours. This year I knew better, and started training with a group in March. Having dropped 10 pounds, and logging considerably more mileage I managed a respectable 1:50 at the June, 2001 race. A number of runners from our group discussed the idea of a fall run. Minneapolis was already full, so the idea of running in the inaugural Queen City Marathon took hold. Unfortunately, or so I thought at the time, they did not have a half marathon (having decided to concentrate on the full marathon in their first year to make sure they got it right). Frankly, the idea of running 26.2 miles was a completely intimidating prospect to someone who had never run more than 14 miles. However, I went for it, and don’t regret it for a minute. I trained hard through a hot summer, running 5 days a week, putting in long runs with the group of 14-20 miles every Sunday morning, losing another 10 pounds. My wife soon complained of becoming a "Marathon widow". By the time we started our taper a few weeks ago, we were talking of "just a 14-miler today". I set a goal of 3:40 for the marathon. OK, I admit, I had fantasies that if I grew wings and had a good tailwind behind me I could get in under 3:30. We ran a 10-miler at that pace (4:58/km, or 8:00/mile) a week before the big event, and I felt really good at the end of it. Anyway, it’s highly unlikely anybody much cares about this except me, but here is how it went, broken down into 7 km intervals. km      average pace/km 0-7       4:58     Very cold at the starting line, felt good to be moving 7-14      5:00     Getting into the run, enjoying the scenery 14-21     5:01     Feeling good, concentrating on staying on pace Hooray! Got to the 21.1 km mark in 1:45, a new personal best for the half , and right on pace for a 3:30 finish. I felt pretty good at this point too, keeping a nice steady rhythm. Ah, but things were about to change. The tailwind I was hoping for turned into a headwind, gusting to 40 km/hr on the return part of the trail. That, combined with onsetting fatigue, meant my dream time will have to wait for another race. Here’s how the rest went. 21-28     5:12     Starting to slow down 28-35     5:29     Definitely feeling the effects of the wind and fatigue 35-42.2   5:27     Legs are like lead weights for most of this portion Finish time: 3:39:12 (average pace 5:11/km) I didn’t make my dream time, but did make the realistic goal I’d set. Also finished upright and smiling, which can’t be underestimated. I felt great, and eager to to it again, though maybe not this week Peter

Response:

Question:

That doesn’t mean that it was a more aerobically taxing event, just that it hurt more.  So would banging your head against the wall.  That’s why I gave up running.

So, do you prefer brick, or plaster?

Response:

I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at some american sports comentator trying to sum up the events after the last mountain stage of the TdF, ‘With Lance in the lead and the tourturous mountains behind him, the american should have no more worries on the road to Paris.’   It makes me sad now that I think about how ignorant some people are about pro-cycling while professing and predicting their outcomes. Slip Stream .

Hmmm, well it’s basically true. And you’ll find that the French and european commentators are in agreement.  Unless Lance gets sick or has a major injury, the only place Jan can possibly gain any time on him is the TT tomorrow.  USPS is not going to let him get away on a break in any of the remaining stages. Can Jan beat Lance by 5 minutes in a TT?  Not highly likely. Granted Lance could crash, but with a 5 minute cushion, he doesn’t have to push it in corners. He can cruise through the technical areas and hammer where it’s safe. If you can offer other ways for Lance to loose the yellow, please elaborate. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman, Model Railroader, Gamer

Response:

Sheetrock gives a much more satisfying "thud".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That doesn’t mean that it was a more aerobically taxing event, just that it hurt more.  So would banging your head against the wall.  That’s why I gave up running. So, do you prefer brick, or plaster?

Response:

Its fluff.  They just make the stuff up.  Somebody heard A. Karsten say it 3 years ago, he heard it from a cat. 4 at a health club trying to impress him, that kind of thing. Btw, the Tour de France is "the superbowl and world series and final four and stanley cup all wrapped up" I’m sure we could get a list going of all the nonsense some commentators state as fact in an attempt to dramatize a sport they don’t understand.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day. What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first? I assume that riders do have the opportunity to eat during this 209 kilometer stage, maybe that is difference. I would assume that it requires substantially less energy to complete the stage on bicycle compared to running on foot. Was he basing this ‘energy calculation/comparison’ on running the stage or biking it?

Response:

I dont think anyone could possibly put it better than this… Its fluff.  They just make the stuff up.  Somebody heard A. Karsten say it 3 years ago, he heard it from a cat. 4 at a health club trying to impress him, that kind of thing. I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at some american sports comentator trying to sum up the events after the last mountain stage of the TdF, ‘With Lance in the lead and the tourturous mountains behind him, the american should have no more worries on the road to Paris.’   It makes me sad now that I think about how ignorant some people are about pro-cycling while professing and predicting their outcomes.

Well, it’s an over-simplification, but basically true.  It’s very hard to imagine Jan Ullrich finding a way to pull 5 minutes out of Lance on any of the remaining stages.  If he makes a move, it’s going to be covered by more Postal riders than at a Pony Express convention. Certainly, he has to contend with the possibility of a move by the big German, and be ever on-guard against a potential tour-ending crash… but as far as losing the yellow jersey – it’s just not very likely unless Lance has a very, very, very bad day on the bike. Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

Response:

What I find interesting is that people continually mistake the amount of post race pain for the energy/effort involved in the race itself.  I suspect that any of the TdF riders, even the guy who will finish last, shoot…even the guys that won’t have finished, possess a degree of aerobic conditioning that far exceeds any marathon runner.  The fact is, running does more damage to the body regardless and, accordingly, causes more pain afterward.  That doesn’t mean that it was a more aerobically taxing event, just that it hurt more.  So would banging your head against the wall.  That’s why I gave up running.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day. What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first? No, what it really means is that THEY WANT TO ENSURE THAT WE ALL APPRECIATE WHAT SUPERHUMAN FEATS THESE REALLY REALLY GOOD STRONG BIKE RACERS CAN DO. It’s like WELL WE ALL WATCH MOVIES WHICH ARE SO FULL OF SUPERLATIVES YOU SHOULD SEE THAT PEOPLE RIGHT HERE ARE DOING IT.  IT’S AMAZING!!!  WOW!!! But really it’s not the equivalent of doing 3 marathons, in effort.  It probably IS about the time of doing 3 marathons for a top runner (what, a 6 1/2 hour stage?).  I terms of calories burned, it’s probably not 3 times — I’d guess a marathon burns at least 2500 to 3000 calories (based on the standard estimate of 100 calories per mile), while those riders may have done 5000 to 6000 (the first couple hours they’re really not going THAT hard…).  They may be going "on the limit" for as much as 1 to 2 hours of that time — but not much more.  The first couple hours are typically at a mellow pace, the climbs are hard, the descents have a fair bit of rest, and the people who are in the pack when it’s not uphill aren’t fully "drilling it" the way a marathoner is for every second of a 2:10 marathon. I’ve done my share of hilly 110 mile road races — I’m tired afterward but probably less tired than after 1 marathon Marathoners can’t replenish glycogen and fluids during a race the way that cyclists can.  You can’t eat much and you can’t drink much or you’ll get a side stitch.  Riding you can eat and drink a LOT more.  Of course the duration is longer here. I assume that riders do have the opportunity to eat during this 209 kilometer stage, maybe that is difference. That’s only one of the differences. I would assume that it requires substantially less energy to complete the stage on bicycle compared to running on foot. Was he basing this ‘energy calculation/comparison’ on running the stage or biking it? Huh?  What he was basing it on was he was groping to find a SUPERLATIVE which would CONVEY TO NOVICES HOW ABSOLUTELY SUPERHUMAN THESE PEOPLE ARE! Well, realistically, it was just a fair bit of cheezy America journalism. The kind that thinks "Up Close and Personal" segments during the Olympics are worthwhile. -B

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I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day. What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first?

No, what it really means is that THEY WANT TO ENSURE THAT WE ALL APPRECIATE WHAT SUPERHUMAN FEATS THESE REALLY REALLY GOOD STRONG BIKE RACERS CAN DO. It’s like WELL WE ALL WATCH MOVIES WHICH ARE SO FULL OF SUPERLATIVES YOU SHOULD SEE THAT PEOPLE RIGHT HERE ARE DOING IT.  IT’S AMAZING!!!  WOW!!! But really it’s not the equivalent of doing 3 marathons, in effort.  It probably IS about the time of doing 3 marathons for a top runner (what, a 6 1/2 hour stage?).  I terms of calories burned, it’s probably not 3 times — I’d guess a marathon burns at least 2500 to 3000 calories (based on the standard estimate of 100 calories per mile), while those riders may have done 5000 to 6000 (the first couple hours they’re really not going THAT hard…).  They may be going "on the limit" for as much as 1 to 2 hours of that time — but not much more.  The first couple hours are typically at a mellow pace, the climbs are hard, the descents have a fair bit of rest, and the people who are in the pack when it’s not uphill aren’t fully "drilling it" the way a marathoner is for every second of a 2:10 marathon. I’ve done my share of hilly 110 mile road races — I’m tired afterward but probably less tired than after 1 marathon Marathoners can’t replenish glycogen and fluids during a race the way that cyclists can.  You can’t eat much and you can’t drink much or you’ll get a side stitch.  Riding you can eat and drink a LOT more.  Of course the duration is longer here. I assume that riders do have the opportunity to eat during this 209 kilometer stage, maybe that is difference.

That’s only one of the differences. I would assume that it requires substantially less energy to complete the stage on bicycle compared to running on foot. Was he basing this ‘energy calculation/comparison’ on running the stage or biking it?

Huh?  What he was basing it on was he was groping to find a SUPERLATIVE which would CONVEY TO NOVICES HOW ABSOLUTELY SUPERHUMAN THESE PEOPLE ARE! Well, realistically, it was just a fair bit of cheezy America journalism. The kind that thinks "Up Close and Personal" segments during the Olympics are worthwhile. -B

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Its fluff.  They just make the stuff up.  Somebody heard A. Karsten say it 3 years ago, he heard it from a cat. 4 at a health club trying to impress him, that kind of thing. Btw, the Tour de France is "the superbowl and world series and final four and stanley cup all wrapped up"

Heh heh heh… but of course, from any kind of global perspective, it’s even bigger than that. I’m sure we could get a list going of all the nonsense some commentators state as fact in an attempt to dramatize a sport they don’t understand.

I think Phil Liggett is a bit over-fond of saying "suffering like he’s never suffered before…", but since it’s Phil, I can forgive the minor gaff…. Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

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I dont think anyone could possibly put it better than this… Its fluff.  They just make the stuff up.  Somebody heard A. Karsten say it 3 years ago, he heard it from a cat. 4 at a health club trying to impress him, that kind of thing.

 I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at some american sports comentator trying to sum up the events after the last mountain stage of the TdF, ‘With Lance in the lead and the tourturous mountains behind him, the american should have no more worries on the road to Paris.’   It makes me sad now that I think about how ignorant some people are about pro-cycling while professing and predicting their outcomes. Slip Stream .

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I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day. What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first?

It means the the commentator was smoking roach wings. I’ve run a marathon and was toast for the better part of a week after. I’ve done solo 100 – 140 mile rides week after week in 95-100 degree heat and was always back out training the next day. JJ

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I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day.

What was the stage time?  In the 4 hour range?  And that includes a lot of downhilling.  At best, maybe two marathons, but even that I don’t buy.  Sounds like they were calling each major climb a marathon. What are the times like for the ultra marathons now?  Still in the ballpark of 20 hours for the Western 100? — Rec.scuba strokes pics page: www.jor.com/strokes Aquashot page: www.jor.com/dive/aquashot

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What are the times like for the ultra marathons now?  Still in the ballpark of 20 hours for the Western 100?

Winning time for the Leadville Trail 100 was 18:07:57.  Pretty damn impressive.

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What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first?

Also, remember that TdF racers are eating throughout the race. Marathons have water stops, but I don’t think runners eat anything. Ken

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I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day. What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first?

Obviously, since people complete IM’s, a marathon alone does not completely deplete one from an energy/aerobic standpoint.  The reason people must recover from a marathon is that it involves multiple hours of slamming one’s lower extremities against the hard ground.  Cycling is downright gentle on the bones and cartilage by comparison.  Similarly, people can spend much more time swimming the English channel than they can boxing.

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Both these activities are too different to compare. About the only thing common between them is the ability to endure and keep going. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day. What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first? I assume that riders do have the opportunity to eat during this 209 kilometer stage, maybe that is difference. I would assume that it requires substantially less energy to complete the stage on bicycle compared to running on foot. Was he basing this ‘energy calculation/comparison’ on running the stage or biking it?

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Yes, we do – almost all marathons will have folks handing out banana halves or orange wedges in the last 10km. This proves to be VERY popular. In ultras, things get more involved, with boiled potatoes, raisins, even chocolate.

Don’t forget the ever popular energy gels in exciting flavors!

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However, elite marathoners rarely eat anything and in many cases only take a small sip of water.  They are running too fast to get much in them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, remember that TdF racers are eating throughout the race. Marathons have water stops, but I don’t think runners eat anything. Ken Yes, we do – almost all marathons will have folks handing out banana halves or orange wedges in the last 10km. This proves to be VERY popular. In ultras, things get more involved, with boiled potatoes, raisins, even chocolate. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

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Multiple marathons are quite possible…ultra marathons! Not only that but cycling is a lot easier on the body since you are not poundig the ground (unless you crash!) as you do in running. You can also take in much more food on the bike to keep your energy stores topped off…just ask anyone who has done an ironman. B.Oliver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day. What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first? I assume that riders do have the opportunity to eat during this 209 kilometer stage, maybe that is difference. I would assume that it requires substantially less energy to complete the stage on bicycle compared to running on foot. Was he basing this ‘energy calculation/comparison’ on running the stage or biking it?

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I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day. What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first? I assume that riders do have the opportunity to eat during this 209 kilometer stage, maybe that is difference. I would assume that it requires substantially less energy to complete the stage on bicycle compared to running on foot. Was he basing this ‘energy calculation/comparison’ on running the stage or biking it?

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What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first?

They’re probably talking about the number of calories burned. Remember that an Ironman triathalon is pretty close to 3 marathons as well (since one of the stages is a marathon run). I would assume that it requires substantially less energy to complete the stage on bicycle compared to running on foot. Was he basing this ‘energy calculation/comparison’ on running the stage or biking it?

I’m not sure what is your point here, but a typical stage in the Tour de France is 5 or 6 times the length of a marathon, and most foot races don’t involve multiple mountain passes. Ken

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Invariably commentators get caught up in the moment and compare apples and oranges (it’s even happened in this newsgroup!). In some cases it’s someone who should know better. I would venture that running 78.3 miles in a day (at any speed) would be far more difficult for a tour rider than even L’Alpe D’Huez. On the other hand, riding "L’Alpe" at the speeds tour riders go would be virtually impossible for the very best ultra runners. IMO a fairer comparison would be racing a marathon every day for 20 days.

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Anonymous: I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day.

Wrong. He said the "aerobic equivalent" of 3 marathons. (this is old news we debated with sozens of posts days ago) What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first? I assume that riders do have the opportunity to eat during this 209 kilometer stage, maybe that is difference.

- Ken

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http://millennium-tv.com/monks.html

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Also, remember that TdF racers are eating throughout the race. Marathons have water stops, but I don’t think runners eat anything. Ken

Yes, we do – almost all marathons will have folks handing out banana halves or orange wedges in the last 10km. This proves to be VERY popular. In ultras, things get more involved, with boiled potatoes, raisins, even chocolate. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "You can’t burn out if you’ve never caught fire." http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/racing.html –

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What was said was that l’Alpe d’Huez was the "aerobic equivalent of" three marathons.  As far as caloric expenditure goes, TdF riders generally consume upwards of 10,000 calories per day, much of that while riding.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched CBS’s coverage of the Tour de France last Sunday when Lance was conquering stage 10 and L’ALPE D’HUEZ. The commentator stated that this stage was equivalent to running three 26 mile marathons in a single day. What does this really mean? I thought that the body was nearly completely depleted of energy reserves before a marathon is completed; therefore, how can (the equivalent of) 2 more marathons be conquered immediately following the first? I assume that riders do have the opportunity to eat during this 209 kilometer stage, maybe that is difference. I would assume that it requires substantially less energy to complete the stage on bicycle compared to running on foot. Was he basing this ‘energy calculation/comparison’ on running the stage or biking it?

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Question:

hi, reenie! i hope you’re reading. i just wanted to tell you that i’ve been thinking about you. how are you? healing? love, salamandra (who hasn’t forgotten about you!)

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Salamandra – yes I am reading! And thank you so much for thinking about me! I am a litttle bit in thesis hell at present, but really not feeling too awful about it. Leg is healing – and manged a run last week.. and THEN bashed my other foot and have fractured a bone! So, no running, just when things were looking up! But I have to say that this experience has been in some ways quite liberating. Prior to this injury I compulsively ran everyday – very early in the morning… I would wake up heart pounding, anxious to go. And perhaps when I’m able to run again – these feelings won’t be so strong. Perhaps inevitably I have found new ways to exercise – swimming and have bought road bike… so the excessivness is still there. But I carry on deluding myself… I have moments of clarity when I see exactly what I’m doing, I see my eating/execise behaviurs really for what they are. And I don’t know what to do. And so it becomes easier to explain it all away by saying to myself and to others "oh – it’s just thw world of sport/running/triathlon! You sound extremely upbeat yourself Salamandra! Glad things are going well for you… hope the running and eating are good for you too… Take care Reenie hi, reenie! i hope you’re reading. i just wanted to tell you that i’ve been thinking about you. how are you? healing? love, salamandra (who hasn’t forgotten about you!)

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Question:

Does anyone have any tips for finding and registering for races in Tokyo or some good ( non air polluted ) routes for an experienced runner ?                                                     Joe ( SRC, WRR, AARC )

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Joe, I lived near Tokyo for almost 3 years and there is nowhere that I have found anywhere in a 5 hour or so radius around the area that is not plagued by air pollution. try not to run to much early in the day (unless it is a pre dawn run) on most 1st mondays of the month, if I recall correctly that would be the day when most of the island burns their dead.  If you have not already encountered that smell during a run, try like all heck to avoid it, it is not one of the most pleasant smells (which can lead to a taste in your mouth, tremendously unpleasant). As for races in the area, I had a contact at the USAF base in Yokota who used to pass me info on area races.  Try calling the MWR on one of the mil bases. They should have some information for you. In fact, in the late August/early September timeframe an annual half-triathalon is usually held in on of the cities on the outskirts of the metropolis area of Tokyo.  I participated in it about 2 years ago and it was a great competition. good luck w/ your runs- amy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have any tips for finding and registering for races in Tokyo or some good ( non air polluted ) routes for an experienced runner ?                                                     Joe ( SRC, WRR, AARC )

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Question:

Aha !! New RST event – iron(ic)man !! Sorry.
Cheers
Barry    -**** Posted from RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com/?a ****-  Search and Read Usenet Discussions in your Browser – FREE –

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sarcasm doesn’t seem to translate well in the written medium.  i’m not the most humorless nor the most uneducated guy,  i feel i have a pretty good grasp of what i am reading.  maybe you should try irony next time,  seems to work better.  sorry that i didn’t get the joke:^) toddzi sandiego

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Irony… what’s that ??  Oh yeah… I think that’s like… making a fortune writing a song about irony, that doesn’t actually seem to contain any… ?? I don’t even think there’s an emoticon for irony… is that ironic ?? — MB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sarcasm doesn’t seem to translate well in the written medium.  i’m not the most humorless nor the most uneducated guy,  i feel i have a pretty good grasp of what i am reading.  maybe you should try irony next time,  seems to work better.  sorry that i didn’t get the joke:^) toddzi sandiego

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SNIP He and Joan Crock, and Malcolm Forbes run in the same social circles you know.

I thought Malcom Forbes was dead… Philip Squire MCP IM http://w1.116.telia.com/~u11602093/home.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -By the way Dan,  I think you and I need to go for a ride together soon, or at least go get a Chingadera and a 32oz Coke.  I still have the big mug you bought me.  Will you call me or shall I call you? Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

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Hey Todd,  What QRMan and I do on RST we do because we love this sport. Many years ago when Empfield was a partner in De Soto Sport, and he and I shared a messy office, he told me, "Emilio, no matter how big and successful De Soto Sport ever gets, never forget your roots."  Those roots to me are what I am still into, Triathlon. We love laughing too.  We never get tired of getting nice letters to us and about our products. Rick,  be careful because Empfield will not give you anything else if you disclose his philanthropic habits.  He and Joan Crock, and Malcolm Forbes run in the same social circles you know. By the way Dan,  I think you and I need to go for a ride together soon, or at least go get a Chingadera and a 32oz Coke.  I still have the big mug you bought me.  Will you call me or shall I call you? Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

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Perhaps we need to publish an emoticon list and insist that posters use one of these things at the end of every sentence. — MB   ;-J   (winking tongue-in-cheek  – I don’t think it’s even on my list)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I’ve noticed two posts, from jason and rick swanger, that knocked and mocked : people for thanking and complimenting desoto and qr.  maybe they are trolling : and i shouldn’t be bothered by their cynicism.  but what is wrong with being Um, I was being sarcastis. Talk to the hand…. Jason

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    Sometimes you think something is funny then later in retrospect it doesn’t seem as humorous, maybe just down right sarcastic.  Again, my apologies to you and the group.

hey! i’m basking in the glory here!  and yes, sarcasm is completely acceptable in such moments.  that isn’t what upsets me.  but as you know, the thrill in giving is for it to be done in secret.  now you’ve blown it for me by alerting the world to my largesse.  i expect that the other three guys i’ve donated kidneys to will come out now as well. qrman

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wow- that’s what sarcasm is?  i really don’t know what happened to my sense of humor.  maybe i need to increase my morning caffeine.  no apology needed. toddzi san diego

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My sincere apology Toddzi,     Sometimes you think something is funny then later in retrospect it doesn’t seem as humorous, maybe just down right sarcastic.  Again, my apologies to you and the group. Sincerely, Rick Swanger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve noticed two posts, from jason and rick swanger, that knocked and mocked people for thanking and complimenting desoto and qr.  maybe they are trolling and i shouldn’t be bothered by their cynicism.  but what is wrong with being appreciative of two guys who are actually contributing and making things bettter for others?   i’ve written one post complimenting emilio and one thanking dan for what they’ve added to my hobby, and both times have been accused of kissing ass and digging for schwag.  it’s so easy and popular to bitch and criticize in our culture, when there is an opportunity to say something positive, i think it NEEDS to be said.  plus, what exactly have jason and rick done to contribute? what’s their pedigree and where do they get off judging every one else’s responses? toddzi sandiego

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I’ve noticed two posts, from jason and rick swanger, that knocked and mocked people for thanking and complimenting desoto and qr.  maybe they are trolling and i shouldn’t be bothered by their cynicism.  but what is wrong with being appreciative of two guys who are actually contributing and making things bettter for others?   i’ve written one post complimenting emilio and one thanking dan for what they’ve added to my hobby, and both times have been accused of kissing ass and digging for schwag.  it’s so easy and popular to bitch and criticize in our culture, when there is an opportunity to say something positive, i think it NEEDS to be said.  plus, what exactly have jason and rick done to contribute? what’s their pedigree and where do they get off judging every one else’s responses? toddzi sandiego

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Question:

Hey all, A few of us are building up our own wetsuits for an upcoming 1/2IM (one of us happens to do it for a living so…)  A few questions about the rules on what we can/can’t do: As far as I found the max thickness (ITU rule) was 5mm.  Anything else we should be aware of? Is it different for any parts of the body (ie legs/arms/torso)? We have some material that is 3mil but has some grooves impressed into it – would it be ok to use? We are playing with the idea of making a suit that would have less drag than a regular suit (slick skin or otherwise) that we may eventually market.  I guess we’re the testers but I want to make sure we don’t show up the day of and find out we can’t use the suits we made. Any info on rules & regulations for suits would be appreciated. Thanks, Pete peter_cowan..insert at here..pml.com

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Peter I can only answer for USA Triathlon sanctioned races, but here goes. There are no rules regarding the construction of the wetsuit. Although under rule 9.3 The Head Referee has the power to rule on anything not specifically covered in the   rules, and to examine any equipment to make a final and binding decision as to whether it is improper. One of the functions of my committee is to investigate such items. If you would like to submit a design in advance of marketing we can either approve of your design or lend some assistance as to changes that would need to made to get USAT approval. — Bruce Platt Chairman, USA Triathlon Safety & Rules Committee USA Triathlon Cat 1 Official

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey all, A few of us are building up our own wetsuits for an upcoming 1/2IM (one of us happens to do it for a living so…)  A few questions about the rules on what we can/can’t do: As far as I found the max thickness (ITU rule) was 5mm.  Anything else we should be aware of? Is it different for any parts of the body (ie legs/arms/torso)? We have some material that is 3mil but has some grooves impressed into it – would it be ok to use? We are playing with the idea of making a suit that would have less drag than a regular suit (slick skin or otherwise) that we may eventually market.  I guess we’re the testers but I want to make sure we don’t show up the day of and find out we can’t use the suits we made. Any info on rules & regulations for suits would be appreciated. Thanks, Pete peter_cowan..insert at here..pml.com

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Question:

Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry Calif cool, Joe !

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Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry Calif cool, Joe !

Thanks Joe, your plate is my new screen saver. Gary McMurtrey Inland Inferno Triathlon Club http://members.aol.com/infernotri/home.htm

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Nice car too. I like the tag also.

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Question:

Any information on Schu’s Triathlon in Michigan next month very much appreciated.  Course, Officiating, Temps, Lodging…  Anything

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Hope I’m not posting this twice – my newsreader just did something strange.  Anyway I’m interested in any information at all regarding Schu’s Triathlon in Michigan next month.  Please e-mail me or post to the newsgroup. Many thanks. Bob

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I went to Shu’s last year.  Great race. Swim was rough and cold but that could change. In fact the water temp. was 80 degrees maybe even warmer and smooth the day before and race morning it was in the 50’s and very wavy.  Bike course: flat, pretty much out and back.  One hairpin turn that could be difficult if you have many people with you.  The run again is flat, out and back.  Organization of the race was good. I was impressed because it was the first time they ever had the race, it was the Pro National Championship and the race director pulled off a successful first.  Of course there were a few glitches that I’m sure will not happen again.  There were not enough bouys for the swim which made sighting very difficult with the waves. There were supposed to be more but something happened to them. And the Pro race was marred with drafting (what else is new). However, the pre race pasta dinner was actually very good and the volunteers the best I’ve seen, very helpful and friendly. Diana

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Any information on Schu’s Triathlon in Michigan next month very much appreciated.  Course, Officiating, Temps, Lodging…  Anything

I’ve never done the race but will be doing it this year.  I *can* tell you about the lake.  I’ve swum in Lake Michigan all my life.  I’m actually from a little town 15 miles south of St. Joe.  Bring a wetsuit.  The lake can be anywhere from 50F-75F.  It’s usually pretty warm in August (all you’d need is a speedo) but last year there was a temperature inversion that sent the temperature plummeting overnight. The beach is sandy and waves are usually subdued.  Again, this can change if there’s been a storm.  After a storm there can be 5-7 ft. waves.  The water can be clear (like 30ft visibility) or totally murky.  Basically, be ready for anything! If people respond to you with more substantive information about the bike or run, I’d appreciate it if you forwarded it to me.  Good luck!   Perhaps I’ll see you there.     Max

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Hope I’m not posting this twice – my newsreader just did something strange.  Anyway I’m interested in any information at all regarding Schu’s Triathlon in Michigan next month.  Please e-mail me or post to the newsgroup. Many thanks. Bob

I participated in Shu’s in 1995 and was very impressed.  It was the first   Tri they put on, but it went very smoothly and was a great race. I got there late the night before (forgetting about the time change from   Chicago) and still was able to get everything I needed at race   headquarters, at Shu’s Bar & Grill along the lake. The swim was a little rough, is was just as Max said, a huge temperature   plunge.  75 the day before, dropping down to 60-65 the next morning.  I   didn’t have a wetsuit then and still survived, but it would have been very   nice.  A triangular course out into rolling waves, which slowed me down on   the way out, but helped a lot on the way back.  There is no breakwater of   any kind, so was rougher than I was used to.  Definatley favors a stronger   swimmer, but since I managed not to drown, anybody can make it. T1 was right up the beach at a parking lot with plenty of room for   everyone.  None of this half mile crap like Mrs T’s (I’m still bitter   about that). Bike course started with the only hill (very steep but short) up from the   beach to the bluff, where it ran an out and back course along a highway   that was totally closed to traffic.  Fast and flat with plenty of room. Run went along the beach road for 1 mile then doubled back and went up the   same short steep hill as the bike, then along a residential neighborhood   and back to the finish. Lots of cheering spectators along the course, especially the run and   finish.  All the volunteers were positive and supportive along the entire   course.  Post race food was a little weak, but I left right after the race   so I might have missed the good stuff. As I said earlier, a great, well organized race in its first year.  I   don’t know how they’ll be abel to do too much better, but I’m looking   forward to finding out.  I’ll definatley be there and I hope others come   also.  It is about 90 min – 2 hours from Chicago and don’t forget the hour   time change like I did.  Hope to see you there Scott Adams

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Question:

I was quite surprised to get an email several minutes later saying that the advertising dept was unaware of the situation but that the info would be forwarded to Atlanta and people fruther up the ladder. Encouraging to say the least (or maybe just the old brushoff)

That’s great. Could you post Coke’s URL again?  It seems it wouldn’t be too difficult to increase the awareness. — JJ Jeffrey Justice Oceanside, CA

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I surfed Cokes web site the other day and left polite information type letters where possible, outlining the tempest brewing with the ITU and triathletes… <snip I was quite surprised to get an email several minutes later saying that the advertising dept was unaware of the situation but that the info would be forwarded to Atlanta and people fruther up the ladder. Encouraging to say the least (or maybe just the old brushoff) TriDork

I suspect the corporate brushoff (lateral arabesque!) since I sent them email via their web page a month or so ago and also got a quick response stating they were unaware of the situation and would look into it. Perhaps if hundreds (thousands?) of other rsters would do the same…… —                   __o       o                 _ <_      <      __/o_    (_)/(_)     /      "Train hard, Race often"

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If anyone has E-Mail address’ for potential sponsors of ITU draft-a-thons lets get them public so we can contact them and let them know how we feel about the ITU’s  new position on drafting and that we will not either participate or view any such events.

Response:

I was quite surprised to get an email several minutes later saying that the advertising dept was unaware of the situation but that the info would be forwarded to Atlanta and people fruther up the ladder. Encouraging to say the least (or maybe just the old brushoff)

What was the situation?  I missed the original posting. Thanks.   Nancy

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I was quite surprised to get an email several minutes later saying that the advertising dept was unaware of the situation but that the info would be forwarded to Atlanta and people fruther up the ladder. Encouraging to say the least (or maybe just the old brushoff) That’s great. Could you post Coke’s URL again? It seems it wouldn’t be too difficult to increase the awareness. — JJ

I, too, sent an email, but have never received a reply.  Coke’s url is http://www.cocacola.com:80/equeries.html This takes you directly into their EQ section – email queries. Coke’s page is a maze to work through to find the email page, but if you want the home page the url is   www.cocacola.com.  btw, the Speak Your Mind link does not get you the email page. David

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I doubt if too many of the ITU’s sponsors are aware of the controversy surrounding the World Cup Series, its difficulties with USA Traithlon and the ITU’s apparent attempt to hijack the sport of triathlon. For those triathletes interested in political action by means of educating ITU sponsors and the media about the negative effect the ITU is having on the sport, the address below is the contact person for the ITU’s 1996 televison production. All letters or faxes should be short, and remember this person is not the enemy.  Maybe if Pacific Sports gets a few hundred letters from around the world, they might see things differently. Letters and petitions should be addressed to: Paul Morgan Pacific Sports Entertainment P.O. Box 7047 Riverside Centre 123 Eagle Street Brisbane, Qld. 4000 Australia or fax —  61-7 3839-0041. — JJ Jeffrey Justice Oceanside, CA

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I doubt if too many of the ITU’s sponsors are aware of the controversy surrounding the World Cup Series, its difficulties with USA Traithlon and the ITU’s apparent attempt to hijack the sport of triathlon.

stuff snipped JJ

I surfed Cokes web site the other day and left polite information type letters where possible, outlining the tempest brewing with the ITU and triathletes. I advised them that they may want to take a second look at sponsoring the ITU races since many trigeek are boycotting such events as well as the TV broadcast of same. I pointed out they would probably bea able to get greater exposure per sponsorship dollar in other areas of Tridom. I was quite surprised to get an email several minutes later saying that the advertising dept was unaware of the situation but that the info would be forwarded to Atlanta and people fruther up the ladder. Encouraging to say the least (or maybe just the old brushoff) TriDork

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