Question:

Competitive in the pool, on the road, around the track, need I say more? I appreciate all the calendars! It’s tedious work to put all that info together… Steve http://www.Tri-eCoach.com

Response:

"Actually, www.cooltri.com now has the best Connecticut calendar."  The only races cooltri has posted that TriFind.com does not have are 1. Brian’s Beachside Boogie: This race occurred over a month ago and we had it on our calendar. (You will find tons of old races on the cooltri calendar) 2.  Summer Sprint Tri Series on Sept 18: This is a weekly race series, and my info is that the last race is Sept 11th, I could be wrong. So you have a race that is over (That we also had but took off because we don’t count month old races on our site) and one that may not even happen.(and we do have Multi-sport races they don’t have) "  And the best calendar for the entire U.S. too.  

We’ve got over 1,100 separate events posted for North America, and still have about 400 more that we are still researching. Anticipating some sort of retort from the Triathalator folks, I counted each separate triathlon or duathlon on their site.  They claim 1,000+, but once you get past the double and triple counts (for example, Rhode Island had 16 events listed, but only four of them were actually in the Ocean State – the rest were in neighboring states like Massachusetts and Connecticut), they had just 798"

 I don’d have the free time to go counting all the races at cooltri, my guess is they are counting their 1102 for all of North America, and then only counting US races for TriFind.  And what do they mean by double post. Do they mean like on their Florida page where they have the Huntington’s disease Triathlon listed for May 20th and August 5th?  And as far as Rhode Island goes The State is so small that I do list other close races as a service to my Triathlon buddies in the Ocean State (I’m originally from Connecticut) so they can look at 1 calendar of area races without having to constantly switch pages. I have never used those numbers when coming on RST and stating my numbers.  But if you want to talk about deceptive numbers, cooltri appears to be counting many races that are already in the past. California: 11 races Florida: 12 races Texas: 10 Races If we can do that, we’ll count our last years races and we now have 2000. ".  Actually, I shouldn’t say "just", because that’s still a good calendar.  It just doesn’t equal cooltri."

races on for months (They still have some from January) We have 1. More one click to race web sites 2. More one click to race sign ups 3. Directions to help locate what part of the state a race is in so you won’t have to run for an atlas when you see a town like "Warren Connecticut" and you live in eastern NY, and you think you might want to do that Tri.  On ours you will know, on cooltri go find your atlas.  I’m sure cooltri will add these features soon how ever. They have copied so much already from our site. Check out our CT Page – http://www.trifind.com/ct.html Now Check out cooltri’s – http://www.cooltri.com/cal_ct.htm Look simular? you know when they first started copping us they even had the exact same blue back ground we do, EXACT!!!!!  We have a "Tips For Beginners" section, well so do they. I mean there is nothing wrong with having a beginners page, but when they are already copping our calendar format you’d think they’d come up with a different name than us for their beginners page  You know it always bugged me how they were copping our format, But I never said a word. In fact in the interest of giving you the person reading this an even better calendar I have more than once invited cooltri to work together with us to make an even better calendar (so you wouldn’t have to click back and fourth) but never got any response.  That’s why I was so surprised to see someone with so many old races on their calendar counting them and then saying they have more.  My goal is to give the Multi-sport population as much up coming race info as possible. That’s why we make our race calendar available free of charge to other websites at Tri-Master.com  Here are a couple of beautiful calendars made with Tri-Master: http://www.tri-master.com/cal.asp?id=27 http://www.tri-master.com/cal.asp?id=31 These are right now in use at the web sites the "Home" buttons are linked too. All cooltri has to do is sign up, and they can have the exact same background they do now. Have their same side bar, add their races and wala! They’d have a way better calendar on their site, we’d have a way better calendar on our site, and you the racing public would have 1 calendar weather it be TriFind, CoolTri, TriGulfCoast, or any of the other 15 to 20 websites using TriMaster.  I’m not looking for any Calendar War, I just want to help you find your races.  Well, I feel a little better now, no hard feelings. Steve A

Response:

I’ve to find some races in Connecticut and i cant seem to find a decent online calander can someone please point me in the right direction. Ted

Response:

I live in NJ, but would be willing to bet  TriFind.com has the most CT races also. here’s the URL for the CT page http://www.trifind.com/ct.html hope this helps

Response:

Actually, www.cooltri.com now has the best Connecticut calendar.  And the best calendar for the entire U.S. too.  We’ve got over 1,100 separate events posted for North America, and still have about 400 more that we are still researching. Anticipating some sort of retort from the triathalator folks, I counted each separate triathlon or duathlon on their site.  They claim 1,000+, but once you get past the double and triple counts (for example, Rhode Island had 16 events listed, but only four of them were actually in the Ocean State – the rest were in neighboring states like Massachusetts and Connecticut), they had just 798.  Actually, I shouldn’t say "just", because that’s still a good calendar.  It just doesn’t equal cooltri. Lew Kidder – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in NJ, but would be willing to bet  TriFind.com has the most CT races also. here’s the URL for the CT page http://www.trifind.com/ct.html hope this helps

Response:

Question:

Hay,      Their are many places that may rent them to you also. I live in D.C. so there are quite a few. Look at high end bike stores.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I plan to try my first triathlon this spring. It is gonna be in may so I guess I’ll have to swim with a wet suit… Are there specificaly designed wet suits for triathlon or my best friend’s sailing board or diving wet suit would do the job ? Any advice for a guy who never swam with a wet suit ? Thanks, Christ.

Response:

A tight fitting wetsuit is a wonderful thing if you’re not an efficient swimmer. Most wetsuits that aren’t specifically for swim racing are too loose to be fast. If you plan to do many races just get a good one in the correct size and be done with it. I don’t especially like swimming in the wetsuit, but 2/3rds of my races are wetsuit legal; I’d lose too much time to go without it… Steve www.Tri-eCoach.com

Response:

I plan to try my first triathlon this spring. It is gonna be in may so I guess I’ll have to swim with a wet suit… Are there specificaly designed wet suits for triathlon or my best friend’s sailing board or diving wet suit would do the job ? Any advice for a guy who never swam with a wet suit ? Thanks, Christ.

Response:

Christian, There are wetsuits specifically designed for triathlons, but if I were you, (and I was last year) I would save my money for now.  You could easily get away with using your friends wetsuit, as long as it isn’t too hard to swim in.  Try it out in the pool, and if its not comfortable go to a dive shop and rent one which is easier to swim in.  That generally involves getting one with short sleeves and thin neoprene.  When you’re hooked, then talk to people you trust and then go buy one. Good Luck Jason

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I plan to try my first triathlon this spring. It is gonna be in may so I guess I’ll have to swim with a wet suit… Are there specificaly designed wet suits for triathlon or my best friend’s sailing board or diving wet suit would do the job ? Any advice for a guy who never swam with a wet suit ? Thanks, Christ.

Response:

Question:

Next summer I will hit the big five-O and to celebrate I want to run my first triathlon.

Right if everybody has calmed down with the hubba hubba, ding dong , smutt I’m going to point the man at the usuall sources. Try looking at "The Triathletes Training Bible" by Joe Freil and "Serious training for endurance athletes". As for books or sources for starting triathlon at 50 or so , I dunno, anybody? Brian P "acting like a grown up" Casey

Response:

How about "Triathloning for Ordinary Mortals"?  Good for people who are a little less core (no one on this newsgroup). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Next summer I will hit the big five-O and to celebrate I want to run my first triathlon. Right if everybody has calmed down with the hubba hubba, ding dong , smutt I’m going to point the man at the usuall sources. Try looking at "The Triathletes Training Bible" by Joe Freil and "Serious training for endurance athletes". As for books or sources for starting triathlon at 50 or so , I dunno, anybody? Brian P "acting like a grown up" Casey

Response:

Question:

How’s the course?  I heat it’s HOT!!

Response:

How’s the course?  I heat it’s HOT!!

VERY hot (can be 100F).  Last year it was windy, but temperatures were ‘only’ in the 90’s.  Hey, but it’s a dry heat.  :-) There are some pretty steep climbs, but they seem to only bother us flatlanders. There is a good course description and additional information on the web site: http://www.greerinc.com/bsl/index.htm Good support.  Well organized.  The race director is a triathlete. Happy trails, Cary — http://members.tripod.com/ccpurdy Before you buy.

Response:

Good support.  Well organized.  The race director is a triathlete.

Not only that. He does the race himself.

Response:

Have noticed the posts on BSLT and just wanted everyone to know we appreciate the positive comments.  I was able to do the event in ‘99 for the 10th anniversary, but will go back to rooting everyone on in 00.  Marti and her volunteer group did a great job and I told her my participation was the ultimate in quality control.  One thing for sure, the course was as tough as I knew it was.  I have trained in these canyons for over 17 years and they can be brutal.  Look forward to having a large group back in Lubbock this year(registration is at record numbers now). Mike Greer, founder and co-race director with wife Marti, Buffalo Springs Lake Triathlon

Response:

Question:

Top or or two percent? dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I usually run the 10k and generally fall into the 35th percentile of my age group, meaning about 65% of the males in my age group run faster than me. I am 42. In a feeble attempt to feel better about this I was wondering what percentile I would fall into in a 10k made up of 100 males, 40-45, picked at random from the general population. Any guesses? RunninRich

Response:

If my personal observation is close, the types  of  males in a random sampling of 100 ages 40-45 ( Kansas origin ’cause that’s where I am) 50  smokers 15  alcoholics 10  very heavy individuals 25  overweight individuals 12  weightlifters (no jogging at all) 10   "runners" (35+miles/wk) 23  "joggers"   (<35 miles/wk)  4   bicyclists   (serious peddlers 100+             miles/wk)  1   triathlete (crazy people)                         This is not a "scientific" survey this is a  sampling of the population around my area.   If you could possibly get this group to participate in a 10k, RunninRich is already better then 50% of base sampling if you look at the other 50%  which is a mix   of different regimens,  There would    " Probably "  be 24 people in front of RR towards the end of a 10k.                           Tom " the world is flat ’cause I fell off once "  

Response:

I usually run the 10k and generally fall into the 35th percentile of my age group, meaning about 65% of the males in my age group run faster than me. I am 42. In a feeble attempt to feel better about this I was wondering what percentile I would fall into in a 10k made up of 100 males, 40-45, picked at random from the general population. Any guesses? RunninRich

Response:

I usually run the 10k and generally fall into the 35th percentile of my age group, meaning about 65% of the males in my age group run faster than me. I am 42. In a feeble attempt to feel better about this I was wondering what percentile I would fall into in a 10k made up of 100 males, 40-45, picked at random from the general population. Any guesses?

Let’s see it’s ans = (2/5 pi * min on left foot)/(your BMI – eye color) Too much math is bad for your soul. — Caveat Lector!

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also I noticed Rick Denney is supposed to have an article in the next issue. David YIKES!!!!  You don’t think Mr. Denney did a Lori Bowden thing, do you??? D.J.  " Dad, I might need the Sports Illustrated back "  (IRONKID) Rick "*)&*)^%$&" Denney

Mr. Denney, I see your usual articulation fails you on this occassion.  I believe the words you are groping for are "Damn kids!"

Response:

| | Well, it’s about damn time. The June issue’s been out for, what, weeks | now and nobody, but nobody has yet worked their way to the back page. | I saw Tricia’s letter to the editor weeks ago and didn’t mention it | because, well, you know. Is it that the newstand copies get out before | the subscription copies? | I noticed the letter too – in part because it was in response to a previous letter by my wife! And just between you and me, tri-baby, I agree with you! But whatever you do, don’t tell Karen… richard "whose other half doesn’t read rst – I hope!" mackenzie

Response:

Will you lot stop going on about the letter, and will someone actually tell us WHAT TRIBABY ACTUALLY WROTE! Some of us won’t get to read the USA edition letters column. I take it that it wasn’t the long overdue IMH98 report? Joel — Joel Sylvester Longest Day ‘98 12:10:33 Edinburgh Triathletes: www.edintri.u-net.com

Response:

Will you lot stop going on about the letter, and will someone actually tell us WHAT TRIBABY ACTUALLY WROTE! Some of us won’t get to read the USA edition letters column. I take it that it wasn’t the long overdue IMH98 report? Joel

Nah, she was just telling about what happened when a new guy moved into her building and she got stuck in the eleva- . . . waitaminnit, that was a different magazine. Ron ‘and it wasn’t Tricia, either, now that I think about it’ Gilcreast

Response:

Tricia, you vamp!!  Home-wrecker. — Stacy Hills Reston, VA

In article

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | Well, it’s about damn time. The June issue’s been out for, what, weeks | now and nobody, but nobody has yet worked their way to the back page. | I saw Tricia’s letter to the editor weeks ago and didn’t mention it | because, well, you know. Is it that the newstand copies get out before | the subscription copies? | I noticed the letter too – in part because it was in response to a previous letter by my wife! And just between you and me, tri-baby, I agree with you! But whatever you do, don’t tell Karen… richard "whose other half doesn’t read rst – I hope!" mackenzie

Response:

Here’s the real nightmare for Triathlete: It’s not just one article. It’s an article every other issue! Oh great. Sept  - "CO2 Cartridges – The Lurking Menace" Nov – "Heat and Tire Tubes – A Deadly Combination" Jan – "1/4 Mile Swims – the Ultimate Challenge?"

What the hell, have you tapped into my computer? Rick "Damn, now I have to come with new ideas" Denney

Response:

: Ruth, you are right, he sure can express himself. I wonder if he has : ever thought about writing for a magazine???? I’m actually most impressed with the elastiscity his vocal cords showed after that scream.  They returned to their original shape so fast…  ;-)

What makes you think that *isn’t* their original shape? RRRRRRRIIIIIIICCCCCCKKKKKKKK "<breath" DDDDDDDEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEYYYYYY

Response:

Rick "*)&*)^%$&" Denney Mr. Denney, I see your usual articulation fails you on this occassion.  I believe the words you are groping for are "Damn kids!"

Those are *not* the words I was groping for. Actually I wasn’t groping at all, just exercising a little discretion. Rick "Let that be a lesson to you" Denney

Response:

Here’s the real nightmare for Triathlete: It’s not just one article. It’s an article every other issue!

Oh great. Sept  - "CO2 Cartridges – The Lurking Menace" Nov – "Heat and Tire Tubes – A Deadly Combination" Jan – "1/4 Mile Swims – the Ultimate Challenge?" Mike " I can hardly wait <g" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

Tricia, did you do what Lori Bowden did in last year’s Triathlete Mag? Iron Pete "still has the mag" Priolo If she did.    :-)

WITHOUT any magazines, kiddo. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

Response:

Tricia, did you do what Lori Bowden did in last year’s Triathlete Mag? Iron Pete "still has the mag" Priolo

If she did.    :-) D.J.   " Dad, you can have your Sports Illustrated back " (IRONKID)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Don’t know if this is old news or not, but in the June Triathlete letters to the editor, there is one from a Tricia Richter.  Tri-baby’s fame continues to grow. awp in sd This just in: newsstands report an amazing rise in sales of the June issue of Triathlete magazine.  The publishers are at a loss to explain the sudden new interest.  Bookstores report the rush is worse than when the Starr report was published.  In related news, scores of young men in running clothes were seen wandering the campus of Stanford University carrying copies of the magazine and pens, muttering about autographs, and repeating admonitions to "try, baby."  Reporters follwing closely behind them, trying to get a comment were met with warnings to "stop drafting me, or I will end you." Tricia, did you do what Lori Bowden did in last year’s Triathlete Mag?

It is ironic that TR’s letter appeared in Triathlete’s "Swimsuit" issue. Or maybe it was that little note in the back that everyone seems to have missed. Rick "What will they think of next?" Denney

Response:

Also I noticed Rick Denney is supposed to have an article in the next issue. David

YIKES!!!!  You don’t think Mr. Denney did a Lori Bowden thing, do you??? D.J.  " Dad, I might need the Sports Illustrated back "  (IRONKID)

Response:

Tricia, did you do what Lori Bowden did in last year’s Triathlete Mag? Iron Pete "still has the mag" Priolo Obviously not—the reaction to THAT would be too scary to contemplate. Just imagine:  Scores of men swooning uncontrollably all over the country.  No, I think it best that I save the world from my overwhelming beauty by keeping it fully covered at all times.  The fate of the free world rests in my, uh, hands!

Thank goodness Tricia’s such an honest, aboveboard, ethical person, because otherwise she’d realize she could beat the entire male field at all subsequent races, since we’d all be locked away with the magazine instead of training.

Response:

Also I noticed Rick Denney is supposed to have an article in the next issue. David YIKES!!!!  You don’t think Mr. Denney did a Lori Bowden thing, do you??? D.J.  " Dad, I might need the Sports Illustrated back "  (IRONKID)

Rick "*)&*)^%$&" Denney

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Don’t know if this is old news or not, but in the June Triathlete letters to the editor, there is one from a Tricia Richter.  Tri-baby’s fame continues to grow. awp in sd Also I noticed Rick Denney is supposed to have an article in the next issue. I saw that too.  Kudos, Rev. Denney!  Your expertise is finally gaining the attention and exposure it merits.  Looking forward to reading that.

Well, it’s about damn time. The June issue’s been out for, what, weeks now and nobody, but nobody has yet worked their way to the back page. I saw Tricia’s letter to the editor weeks ago and didn’t mention it because, well, you know. Is it that the newstand copies get out before the subscription copies? All of you in Houston are excused for the oversight. There were no copies available. Barnes and Noble was cleaned out by various family members who are trying to improve Triathlete’s sales numbers. I told them to wait for the actual article, sheesh! Here’s the real nightmare for Triathlete: It’s not just one article. It’s an article every other issue! Rick "Ain’t the Internet grand?" Denney

Response:

Rick "*)&*)^%$&" Denney

Ruth, you are right, he sure can express himself. I wonder if he has ever thought about writing for a magazine???? D.J. " anybody know if Mr.D has ever beat up a little kid? " (IRONKID)

Response:

Rick "*)&*)^%$&" Denney Ruth, you are right, he sure can express himself. I wonder if he has ever thought about writing for a magazine???? D.J. " anybody know if Mr.D has ever beat up a little kid? " (IRONKID)

D.J., those were Tech Ed.Denney’s exact words when I asked him how to adjust my gears. Ruth " I don’t know about little kids, but they don’t allow him anywhere near the local old people’s home" Kazez

Response:

 Don’t know if this is old news or not, but in the June Triathlete letters to the editor, there is one from a Tricia Richter.  Tri-baby’s fame continues to grow. awp in sd

Response:

 Don’t know if this is old news or not, but in the June Triathlete letters to the editor, there is one from a Tricia Richter.  Tri-baby’s fame continues to grow. awp in sd

This just in: newsstands report an amazing rise in sales of the June issue of Triathlete magazine.  The publishers are at a loss to explain the sudden new interest.  Bookstores report the rush is worse than when the Starr report was published.  In related news, scores of young men in running clothes were seen wandering the campus of Stanford University carrying copies of the magazine and pens, muttering about autographs, and repeating admonitions to "try, baby."  Reporters follwing closely behind them, trying to get a comment were met with warnings to "stop drafting me, or I will end you."

Response:

 Don’t know if this is old news or not, but in the June Triathlete letters to the editor, there is one from a Tricia Richter.  Tri-baby’s fame continues to grow. awp in sd Also I noticed Rick Denney is supposed to have an article in the next issue.

I saw that too.  Kudos, Rev. Denney!  Your expertise is finally gaining the attention and exposure it merits.  Looking forward to reading that. (And it’s far more significant than getting one’s letter to the editor published) — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

Response:

Tricia, did you do what Lori Bowden did in last year’s Triathlete Mag? Iron Pete "still has the mag" Priolo

I want a poster when they’re available! Frank "inspired by visions of Tri-Baby" Wallace Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Don’t know if this is old news or not, but in the June Triathlete letters to the editor, there is one from a Tricia Richter.  Tri-baby’s fame continues to grow. awp in sd This just in: newsstands report an amazing rise in sales of the June issue of Triathlete magazine.  The publishers are at a loss to explain the sudden new interest.  Bookstores report the rush is worse than when the Starr report was published.  In related news, scores of young men in running clothes were seen wandering the campus of Stanford University carrying copies of the magazine and pens, muttering about autographs, and repeating admonitions to "try, baby."  Reporters follwing closely behind them, trying to get a comment were met with warnings to "stop drafting me, or I will end you." Tricia, did you do what Lori Bowden did in last year’s Triathlete Mag? Iron Pete "still has the mag" Priolo

Obviously not—the reaction to THAT would be too scary to contemplate. Just imagine:  Scores of men swooning uncontrollably all over the country.  No, I think it best that I save the world from my overwhelming beauty by keeping it fully covered at all times.  The fate of the free world rests in my, uh, hands! — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

Response:

 Don’t know if this is old news or not, but in the June Triathlete letters to the editor, there is one from a Tricia Richter.  Tri-baby’s fame continues to grow. awp in sd

Also I noticed Rick Denney is supposed to have an article in the next issue. David

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Don’t know if this is old news or not, but in the June Triathlete letters to the editor, there is one from a Tricia Richter.  Tri-baby’s fame continues to grow. awp in sd This just in: newsstands report an amazing rise in sales of the June issue of Triathlete magazine.  The publishers are at a loss to explain the sudden new interest.  Bookstores report the rush is worse than when the Starr report was published.  In related news, scores of young men in running clothes were seen wandering the campus of Stanford University carrying copies of the magazine and pens, muttering about autographs, and repeating admonitions to "try, baby."  Reporters follwing closely behind them, trying to get a comment were met with warnings to "stop drafting me, or I will end you."

Tricia, did you do what Lori Bowden did in last year’s Triathlete Mag? Iron Pete "still has the mag" Priolo

Response:

Question:

Read some posts. Maybe I’ll stop back. D.J.   "good place to troll.. err… I mean talk about my 4:12 mile, in the snow, with the broken leg… <to be continued"   (IRONKID)

And that was uphill all the way, right? Aside to rec.runners –  D.J. is a very accomplished young triathlete, competitive at the national level.  He loves puns and bad jokes and is always getting sent to his room for posting them on rec.sport.triathlon. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03

Response:

Last week, I said I would like to do the Grosse Ile Duathlon near Deroit.

there was a step by step map— door to race, instantly.    Good idea? Hey, that is a neat idea. And you can even look at the maps after you’ve been sent to your room again… <inside joke D.J. Mosiniak     "he made me do it"     (IRONKID) Uh huh. Go to your room. Mike "Same inside joke" Tennent

I’m already there—  penalty from the other place for not spelling DETROIT right;-).     <inside joke back at him Read some posts. Maybe I’ll stop back. D.J.   "good place to troll.. err… I mean talk about my 4:12 mile, in the snow, with the broken leg… <to be continued"   (IRONKID)

Response:

My dad asked me to post this, he thought it was a good idea. Last week, I said I would like to do the Grosse Ile Duathlon near Deroit. The entry that had been sent to me was torn up pretty bad in the mail. We went to BikeSport Michigan Home Page where I could download an entry form. I’m not old enough to drive so when my dad saw ‘for directions to race’ he had me click on it. Up popped— Yahoo! Maps- Driving Directions—-  with the address of the starting point of the race filled in as ‘destination’. I entered our home address as ’starting address’ and rather than a general map of the city, there was a step by step map— door to race, instantly.    Good idea?

Hey, that is a neat idea. And you can even look at the maps after you’ve been sent to your room again… <inside joke My dad knew about Yahoo- Maps, the problem was that often the out of town race site address was not mentioned, only where to send the entry. We could always find the general area but if my mom did not go along with us, there was no one to get out of the car and ask directions at the gas station;-).

LOL. D.J. Mosiniak     "he made me do it"     (IRONKID)

Uh huh. Go to your room. Mike "Same inside joke" Tennent "IronPenguin" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

Response:

My dad asked me to post this, he thought it was a good idea. Last week, I said I would like to do the Grosse Ile Duathlon near Deroit. The entry that had been sent to me was torn up pretty bad in the mail. We went to BikeSport Michigan Home Page where I could download an entry form. I’m not old enough to drive so when my dad saw ‘for directions to race’ he had me click on it. Up popped— Yahoo! Maps- Driving Directions—-  with the address of the starting point of the race filled in as ‘destination’. I entered our home address as ’starting address’ and rather than a general map of the city, there was a step by step map— door to race, instantly.    Good idea? My dad knew about Yahoo- Maps, the problem was that often the out of town race site address was not mentioned, only where to send the entry. We could always find the general area but if my mom did not go along with us, there was no one to get out of the car and ask directions at the gas station;-). Online races that are out of the area— Bingo– directions, distance and driving time. The races that only have entry forms– put an address which is close to the start line on the form with a mention of Yahoo or whatever. It will help the people who are out of the area find the race and might even pick up a few people when they realize— "Oh, that’s not too far." If you think it’s a good idea— pass it on. If not— never mind. D.J. Mosiniak     "he made me do it"     (IRONKID)

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My dad asked me to post this, he thought it was a good idea. Last week, I said I would like to do the Grosse Ile Duathlon near Deroit. The entry that had been sent to me was torn up pretty bad in the mail.

Hey Mosi, I’ll be at that race cheering on my wife in her first ever duathlon. It’s a great race, but watch the weather–it’s usually raining on that day, never fails! — Tri Your Hardest.   /O     ___o     o      ~~~~   _ <,_    <|        (*)/ (*)    /           Darrin Bartlett 15 weeks to the inaugural Ironman USA!

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My dad asked me to post this, he thought it was a good idea. Last week, I said I would like to do the Grosse Ile Duathlon near Deroit. The entry that had been sent to me was torn up pretty bad in the mail. We went to BikeSport Michigan Home Page where I could download an entry form. I’m not old enough to drive so when my dad saw ‘for directions to race’ he had me click on it. Up popped— Yahoo! Maps- Driving Directions—-  with the address of the starting point of the race filled in as ‘destination’. I entered our home address as ’starting address’ and rather than a general map of the city, there was a step by step map— door to race, instantly.    Good idea?

Ironkid- Damn!  That’s a GREAT idea!  I’m going to incorporate that idea into the Shamrock Duathlon web site ASAP.  Thanks for the advice. John McAvoy Race Director Shamrock Duathlon http://www.shamrockduathlon.com

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Question:

Hi, We still make the same fanny pack that was mentioned in one of the replies to your question.  The De Soto Sport Fanny Pack is made of Supplex with a stong lightweight fully adjustable buckle.  It is only $14.00 and works great a a race belt.  I have used in many different distance races.  When I travel, I put my money in it and tuck it into my pants so that it is out of sight. The best deal of it is that if you buy it from us, we offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Emilio De Soto II Triathlete/President and Designer De Soto Sport Triathlon Clothing Email me for a free catalog

Response:

I’ve been looking (without much success) for a fanny pack that allows me to carry 3 or 4 Clif Shots and an energy bar (enough for a marathon). I’ve found GU clip on carriers (too small) and strap on water bottle holders (too large, heavy and bulky). Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks, Frank

Response:

Frank: Check out the packs made by "Ultimate". They have a broad range of small to medium size fanny packs. Good Luck- Keith — Ironman Triathlon Wetsuits Website: www.ironmanwetsuits.com toll free order line: 800-897-6464 international calls: 804-288-6000 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been looking (without much success) for a fanny pack that allows me to carry 3 or 4 Clif Shots and an energy bar (enough for a marathon). I’ve found GU clip on carriers (too small) and strap on water bottle holders (too large, heavy and bulky). Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks, Frank

Response:

De Soto made one a few years ago.  It was light and small,  just what you are looking for.  Maybe he still makes it. Ray Plotecia Male Amateur, 50-54 Ruxton, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been looking (without much success) for a fanny pack that allows me to carry 3 or 4 Clif Shots and an energy bar (enough for a marathon). I’ve found GU clip on carriers (too small) and strap on water bottle holders (too large, heavy and bulky). Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks, Frank

Response:

Any thoughts or suggestions?

I’ll bet you could go to Wal-Mart and find a small one that would do just fine. Ken

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I’ve been looking (without much success) for a fanny pack that allows me to carry 3 or 4 Clif Shots and an energy bar (enough for a marathon). I’ve found GU clip on carriers (too small) and strap on water bottle holders (too large, heavy and bulky).

 I use a walkman carrier; it fits snugly against the small of your back, but not too snugly; it has a couple of pockets; usually one with a velcro enclosure; its widely available from consumer electronic stores and places like RoadRunner Sports.  On my training runs it easily fits 3 or 4 GU pacs and 2 balance bars; also my car key and an emergency $20.  I’m planning to use it again this year in the NY Marathon.  Last year I also packed a thin disposable camera.  Regards,

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check out the runing room product i have one of there pack’s and wont leave home without one www.runningroom.com andy proxy.airnews.net, I’ve been looking (without much success) for a fanny pack that allows me to carry 3 or 4 Clif Shots and an energy bar (enough for a marathon). I’ve found GU clip on carriers (too small) and strap on water bottle holders (too large, heavy and bulky). Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks, Frank

Response:

I’ve been looking (without much success) for a fanny pack that allows me to carry 3 or 4 Clif Shots and an energy bar (enough for a marathon). I’ve found GU clip on carriers (too small) and strap on water bottle holders (too large, heavy and bulky). Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks, Frank

If you aren’t carrying water (as in an organized race), look at the Race Ready Long Distance shorts (http://www.raceready.com/). They have a built-in set of pockets that exactly meet your requirements. Because the stuff you’re carrying is on the shorts, it doesn’t bounce around. I tried it for the Chicago marathon and was very pleased with how it worked out.

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I bought one last year made by Ultimate.  It came w/ a gel flask (has a pocket for it also) and has a small pocket that is large enough for a powerbar cut into half sections or several (4+) additional gel packets.  I has a nice web over padded belt, so it doesn’t chaffe too badly.  And you can put ur race number on it, and I even added an extra Gu flask container to it during the Ironman this weekend.  It worked great. t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been looking (without much success) for a fanny pack that allows me to carry 3 or 4 Clif Shots and an energy bar (enough for a marathon).

Response:

In article I’ve been looking (without much success) for a fanny pack that allows me to carry 3 or 4 Clif Shots and an energy bar (enough for a marathon). I’ve found GU clip on carriers (too small) and strap on water bottle holders (too large, heavy and bulky). Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks, Frank

If you aren’t carrying water (as in an organized race), look at the Race Ready Long Distance shorts (

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Question:

Every marathon I’ve run, except for the very slow ones when I didn’t push myself, I have had a problem at about mile 21 or 22. My quads become very sore and I can hardly lift my legs. Every step is painful. Of course my pace slows way down. Can anyone offer advice on how I should train, eat, race etc. to prevent this problem, or at least delay it? I am 51 and a 3:20 marathoner. — Carl S. Muffoletto Network Manager VP Buildings

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I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get. How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads!

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I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get.  How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads!

Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury. GK I wish Pheidippides had died at mile 12! Gary W. Kopycinski             Ecclesia Semper Reformanda! http://homepage.interaccess.com/~frodojrr      Team OS/2!           Shire Enterprises FAX * (708) 755-0915 * Bart’s Blackboard : "The principal’s toupee is not a Frisbee."

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Gary Writes: Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury.

I must disagree.  I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.  I’ve talked to several coaches and pros who even believe that to prepare your body you must run a full marathon in training.  I won’t do that myself.  But their thinking is, if you race 5k’s you run 5k’s beforehand, same with 5 milers, 10k’s, 10 milers. halfs, you need to prepare your body for that distance.  Again I don’t do this either but a do believe that a few 22+ LSD’s are needed or at least helpful.  If you don’t agree then go to the 20 mile marker at any marathon and see how many people start falling apart, this is proof in itsself. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

Response:

That still begs the question, how does one train, if not long runs, to not run down at mile 21 (or 22 or 23)? Carl Muffoletto

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get.  How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads! Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury. GK I wish Pheidippides had died at mile 12! Gary W. Kopycinski             Ecclesia Semper Reformanda! http://homepage.interaccess.com/~frodojrr      Team OS/2!          Shire Enterprises FAX * (708) 755-0915 * Bart’s Blackboard : "The principal’s toupee is not a Frisbee."

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I’m 49 and had a similar problem(right quad only) in my first and only marathon(3:20) this year so I’ll be interested in other replies you get. How long was your longest training run?  I know most recommend no longer than 20 miles but Galloway recommends longer so I might try a 24-26 miler three weeks before Boston next April…. wonder what those hills will do for quads!

I have never read Galloway’s book, but from my experience anything over 20 miles on pavement takes more effort than I get benefit. Why does Galloway say run longer distances? What pace does he recommend? I did run three hours on trails which I find less damaging than pavement in getting ready for my last marathon. But I still had the mile 21 miseries. Most responses to my post have recommended intermediate distances (12-15 miles) at race pace rather than 20 mile LSD’s. Intuitively it makes sense to run long distances to prepare to race long distances. But most advice is counter to that (except you say Galloway). There must be factory at work that I do not intuitively recognize. Carl Muffoletto

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David writes: I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.

I agree with David.  I find my legs hold out much longer when I do a few 22-24 milers within 2 months of the marathon (but NOT on consecutive weeks). Actually I ran my best marathon only 6 weeks after running the NYC marathon nearly 20 years ago.  Two years ago, I ran a strong marathon (at least my legs didn’t give out and felt reasonably strong the last few miles) only 29 days after another pretty decent marathon.  For me, the bottom line is that giving my body a marathon or near-marathon experience helps better prepare me for the marathon. Ron

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Carl: I’m not sure what your quad problem is but, if it’s simple fatigue, I think your longer runs in training should be closer to marathon distance. You’re a little faster (and 13 years better) than me so I offer this with a grain of salt. My long runs are 24 to 25 miles broken up into four 10K slices.  I have water "stops" at 6,12, and 18. For the first half (1-12) I keep even splits 2 minutes slower than 10K race pace; mile 12-18,  I speed-up to 1:30 slower than 10K pace and 18 -24, I try to push it to 1:00 over 10K pace. not an easy work-out but it seems effective in staving off late mile fatigue.  my first couple of marathons I followed the conventional "wisdom" of 20 mile maximum runs and crashed badly with hamstring cramps etc.. at miles 23 and 24. since adopting the above strategy for my last five marathons, i’m still very tired at the end but I haven’t crashed and I’m able to keep my speed up (even negative splits!). I know lots of training books adhere to the 20 mile maximum, but there are plenty of training methods that run counter. In fact, Galloway’s book called for long runs of 30 miles! Every one is an individual and you just have to see what works for you.  steve r.

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Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury.

Bull Durham. Read Richard Benyo’s excellent book, _Making the Marathon your Event_. He includes a 22-23 mile run in many of his schedules. Bear in mind that your "professional runner" is putting in 90-120 mpw, i.e., averaging 13-17 miles per day. Consider, that one of the greatest running coaches in history, Arthur Lydiard, had his MILER, Peter Snell, complete a standard marathon race as part of his training FOR THE MILE! Worth noting is that Snell set several world records off this training. Mark Sandrock — (Not speaking for my employer.) Wolfram Research, Inc. Voice: 217-398-0700/x107

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: That still begs the question, how does one train, if not long runs, to not : run down at mile 21 (or 22 or 23)? : Carl Muffoletto I’d like to propose a different option.  I crashed and burned 6 marathons in a row, until I realized that it wasn’t the distance that was the problem — it was trying to hold a pace that my legs weren’t used to.  I could hold 6:00 miles for 16-20 miles, then I’d completely fall apart. Instead of running your long runs longer, run them closer to race pace.  I run my long runs at 6:30 – 6:40 pace now, with faster miles at the end.  I usually run 6-8 long runs before a marathon, from 18 to 20 miles, and 1 at 22-23 miles.   My prior long run pace was around 7:30. I’ve now run 4 marathons in a row where I’ve held together through all 26.2 miles. There are some disadvantages to doing long runs faster —   – it takes longer for your legs to recover.  My track workouts on Tuesdays     are pretty poor once I start marathon training.   – if you do too many of them, you start going stale. On the other hand, I’ve found that I only need 6-8 long runs prior to a marathon, instead of 15-18. Carlos

Response:

Gary Writes: Any running clinic I’ve ever been to, any "professional runner" I’ve ever seen (Olympic types, etc.), any book I’ve ever read *except* Galloway, etc. etc. says to train to 20 miles.  Any more risks serious injury. I must disagree.  I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.  I’ve talked to several coaches and pros who even believe that to prepare your body you must run a full marathon in training.  I won’t do that myself.  But their thinking is, if you race 5k’s you run 5k’s beforehand, same with 5 milers, 10k’s, 10 milers. halfs, you need to prepare your body for that distance.  

Of course the big difference here <as you probably agree is that those 5K’s and 5 milers don’t beat up the legs like a 26.2 mile run does. But I believe Galloway’s longer runs include include numerous walking breaks to ease that problem.   Still, I don’t think a run over 20 adds that much value. But it works for some people and you have to experiment to see what works for you. My inclination would be to do harder, shorter endurance runs. But my regimen also includes 4-5 hour bike rides, so those are my real long training bouts. If I’m gearing up for a marathon, I add some 15 mile runs, but that’s it. Again I don’t do this either but a do believe that a few 22+ LSD’s are needed or at least helpful.  If you don’t agree then go to the 20 mile marker at any marathon and see how many people start falling apart, this is proof in itsself.

Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/

Response:

Mike writes: Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g

Okay.  :)  Let me ask you a question Mike, this may be a little off subject and I’m not a TriGuy, just a runner/racer/coach.  I see where you do run the full marathon length in tri’s and/or in marathons so I can see where you would/can help on training for that distance.  Although we disagree on the mileage/distance needed.  :)  But alot of the people I see/hear doing Tri’s nowadays do the smaller more popular tri events.  The 1k swim, 40k bike, 5/10k run etc..  Nothing wrong with this, infact it’s great.  But I hear them delving out all this marathon advice when their long run in practice or the event may be a 10k or 10 miler at most, maybe a hair longer.  Same is said with the weekend runner or 5k runner giving out this advise who has no clue what it really takes, and they have never ran a marathon before.  I know they’re only trying to help but it just burns my butt when other marathoners try and give out sound distance advice and get hammered by them.  Again, I know we all want to help others here as this it what this forum is about.  But it concerns me when I see some of these statements and advice given that my not be helpful to the person asking for and needing help on the marathon.  I’m not suggesting it’s my way or the highway and I am always right or all marathoners are always right in their statements and coaching.  I’m not saying anyone (just because he’s a marathoner) is any smarter or better to coach than anyone else here but some of this advise I’ve seen here (in my opinion) is really non beneficial and maybe counterproductive and is given BY runners who have no idea what it takes to run a good marathon.  Let me reiterate, everyone is intitled to their opinion and no individual is necessarily any better at coaching than anyone else.  Heck even the veterans disagree alot.  :)  But I believe the veteran marathoners here have a little more knowledge than some non marathoners in regards to the marathon and advice regarding training.  Whew!!! Oh, so I guess my question is:  :)   Do you have any idea of the number/ratio of participants in these shorter tri’s compared to the full length Ironman type tri’s? Just my 2 cents for the day.  :) David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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I did run a 50K (31 mi) trail run about a month before my last marathon. But this was at a real slow pace. I can’t imagine running 20+ mile training runs at race pace. At least not more that one.  Maybe if I was in my twenties, but at 51 it takes a lot longer to recover from that sort of effort. I’d love to be able to give it a try though. Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That still begs the question, how does one train, if not long runs, to not : run down at mile 21 (or 22 or 23)? : Carl Muffoletto I’d like to propose a different option.  I crashed and burned 6 marathons in a row, until I realized that it wasn’t the distance that was the problem — it was trying to hold a pace that my legs weren’t used to.  I could hold 6:00 miles for 16-20 miles, then I’d completely fall apart. Instead of running your long runs longer, run them closer to race pace.  I run my long runs at 6:30 – 6:40 pace now, with faster miles at the end.  I usually run 6-8 long runs before a marathon, from 18 to 20 miles, and 1 at 22-23 miles. My prior long run pace was around 7:30. I’ve now run 4 marathons in a row where I’ve held together through all 26.2 miles. There are some disadvantages to doing long runs faster —  - it takes longer for your legs to recover.  My track workouts on Tuesdays    are pretty poor once I start marathon training.  - if you do too many of them, you start going stale. On the other hand, I’ve found that I only need 6-8 long runs prior to a marathon, instead of 15-18. Carlos

Response:

Do you guys think my age, 51, is a prohibitive factor? In 94 I did marathons 22 days apart and really crashed early, mile 18, in the second. Granted it was the Marine Corp in 94 (forever known unfortunately as Oprah’s marathon), in miserable weather conditions. But still I crashed early and had my worst finishing time ever, 4:07. I assumed I needed more rest. But if I get you right you believe a run or two at about marathon distance and only slightly below target race pace has worked for you. Worth a try I guess. Thanks for your input. Carl Muffoletto – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David writes: I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon. I agree with David.  I find my legs hold out much longer when I do a few 22-24 milers within 2 months of the marathon (but NOT on consecutive weeks). Actually I ran my best marathon only 6 weeks after running the NYC marathon nearly 20 years ago.  Two years ago, I ran a strong marathon (at least my legs didn’t give out and felt reasonably strong the last few miles) only 29 days after another pretty decent marathon.  For me, the bottom line is that giving my body a marathon or near-marathon experience helps better prepare me for the marathon. Ron

Response:

David writes: I think a couple of 20+ LSD runs are needed (not necessary) before the marathon.  I normally do a couple of 22 to 24 milers several weeks before the marathon.

I agree on the 20+ LSD runs but not a few weeks before the marathon. Too close to be hard enough to be beneficial and more likely to be done if you are not confident of your ability to finish the distance.Try this for a radical solution, 13 x 2 miles at 5s/mile faster than race pace with 1 min rec between reps.  Do this once a month all year round, alter times as neccesary. bm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike writes: Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g Okay.  :)  Let me ask you a question Mike, this may be a little off subject and I’m not a TriGuy, just a runner/racer/coach.  I see where you do run the full marathon length in tri’s and/or in marathons so I can see where you would/can help on training for that distance.  Although we disagree on the mileage/distance needed.  :)  But alot of the people I see/hear doing Tri’s nowadays do the smaller more popular tri events.  The 1k swim, 40k bike, 5/10k run etc..  Nothing wrong with this, infact it’s great.  But I hear them delving out all this marathon advice when their long run in practice or the event may be a 10k or 10 miler at most, maybe a hair longer.  Same is said with the weekend runner or 5k runner giving out this advise who has no clue what it really takes, and they have never ran a marathon before.

   A lot written but not a lot said David.  Some individuals are better at coaching than others, it would be a mistake thinking otherwise.  It would also be a mistake to assume that running a god marathon makes you well able to coach someone to a similar feat since i’m sure it has been said a million times before we are all indivduals and therefore have to be treated as such.  You seem to have disdain for non marathoners or weekend runners but surely you can accept that we can learn from anyones experience good or bad.  The advice given on newsgroups is general in nature and on a take it or leave it basis since to give informed opinion on any form of training as it relates to that individual would need intimate knowledge of that individuals circumstances and we dont have it here.  Don’t get too serious about all this RUNNING is a sport and SPORTS are meant to be fun.  And before you jump on my case, yes I have run a marathon(admittedly not very fast) and I am a qualified distance coach and I learn a lot from the advise given here usually by the weekend runners. bm.

Response:

Benny writes:  A lot written but not a lot said David.  Some individuals are better at coaching than others, it would be a mistake thinking otherwise.  It would also be a mistake to assume that running a god marathon makes you well able to coach someone to a similar feat since i’m sure it has been said a million times before we are all indivduals and therefore have to be treated as such.  

True, every case is different, there are many variables in each case.  As a long time runner and coach I’m very aware of this.  Nor did I say any different. You seem to have disdain for non marathoners or weekend runners but surely you can accept that we can learn from anyones experience good or bad.  

I have no distain for anyone who is health minded and tries to better themself through running.  What I do have a problem with is someone who’s never ran over a 10 miler giving bad marathon advise and disputing others who have. The advice given on newsgroups is general in nature and on a take it or leave it basis since to give informed opinion on any form of training as it relates to that individual would need intimate knowledge of that individuals circumstances and we dont have it here.  Don’t get too serious about all this RUNNING is a sport and SPORTS are meant to be fun.  And before you jump on my case, yes I have run a marathon(admittedly not very fast) and I am a qualified distance coach and I learn a lot from the advise given here usually by the weekend runners. bm.

Good for you, and I’ll take input from everyone, but I’d say the veterans and pros should be, and are, alot more knowledgeable than a weekend warrior. That’s not putting down the weekend warrior, it’s just he’s not traveled the miles in some peoples shoes, shall we say.  And when he gives bad advise here that could hurt or hinder anothers performance we need to inform them of it. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

Response:

Still, I don’t think a run over 20 adds that much value. But it works for some people and you have to experiment to see what works for you. My inclination would be to do harder, shorter endurance runs. But my regimen also includes 4-5 hour bike rides, so those are my real long training bouts. If I’m gearing up for a marathon, I add some 15 mile runs, but that’s it.

I couldn’t see running a marathon on 15 mile runs.  Although I guess if you ride your bike for a couple 100 miles you get the same cardiovascular benefits.  I’m wondering at what pace you do your long runs with compared to your marathon racing times? or are all of your marathons with a 2.4 mile swim and a 112 mile bike ride? Matt

Response:

 when he gives bad advise here that could hurt or hinder anothers performance we need to inform them of it.

WHY DAVID we are not the running gestapo, let them hear all sides of the story and then make up their own minds.

Response:

Benny writes: WHY DAVID we are not the running gestapo, let them hear all sides of the story and then make up their own minds.

First because we’re here to help not hinder or hurt.  But as I stated in my intial post everyone has a right to their opinion.  I just don’t know why anyone in the first place would want to comment on marathon training if they’d never ran one or had no clue what they were talking about.  But if I’m a first time marathoner or an old pro at it I’d want input from someone who’s been there.  Just as if I were a new runner and wanted to start running or wanted to run a local fun run for the first time.  I’d ask other runners or racers, not my neighbor or my barber who wouldn’t have any idea since they’ve never run before.  But one reason my first post was so long was to try and avoid this, I made it as simplistic as possible.   No we are not the running gestapo, yes, as I’ve stated over and over everyone has a right to comment (please go back and read my intial post on this), but I (personally) have problems with new pilots flying the plane with instructors who have no clue what they’re doing up there. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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I agree with everyone. Actually my initial post was a request for help from anyone who had an idea how to prevent crashing in the last four or five miles of a marathon. I appreciate hearing lots of options, (except from the guy who said drive the last six miles),then I can pick the ones that I think may work for me. I would consider myself an old pro. I’m old, 51. I’ve completed 15 marathons in the last 11 years. And I even won $75 dollars in my last marathon for being 3rd in my age group, Does that make me a pro? Still, I want help and advice. Just because I’ve been training for and running marathons for 11 years doesn’t mean I know everything. What I do know is how to listen to my body and what I’m comfortable doing. So the different training suggestions were filtered through my own knowledge and experience. I got some great ideas. I will try the 13 X 2mi repeats at near race pace. But not monthly. I will try 20+ milers at race pace. And I will try a couple of other marathons at training pace befor my target race. Thanks to all who answered my post. Carl Muffoletto

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Benny writes: WHY DAVID we are not the running gestapo, let them hear all sides of the story and then make up their own minds. First because we’re here to help not hinder or hurt.  But as I stated in my intial post everyone has a right to their opinion.  I just don’t know why anyone in the first place would want to comment on marathon training if they’d never ran one or had no clue what they were talking about.  But if I’m a first time marathoner or an old pro at it I’d want input from someone who’s been there.  Just as if I were a new runner and wanted to start running or wanted to run a local fun run for the first time.  I’d ask other runners or racers, not my neighbor or my barber who wouldn’t have any idea since they’ve never run before.  But one reason my first post was so long was to try and avoid this, I made it as simplistic as possible.   No we are not the running gestapo, yes, as I’ve stated over and over everyone has a right to comment (please go back and read my intial post on this), but I (personally) have problems with new pilots flying the plane with instructors who have no clue what they’re doing up there. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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Still, I don’t think a run over 20 adds that much value. But it works for some people and you have to experiment to see what works for you. My inclination would be to do harder, shorter endurance runs. But my regimen also includes 4-5 hour bike rides, so those are my real long training bouts. If I’m gearing up for a marathon, I add some 15 mile runs, but that’s it. I couldn’t see running a marathon on 15 mile runs.  Although I guess if you ride your bike for a couple 100 miles you get the same cardiovascular benefits.  I’m wondering at what pace you do your long runs with compared to your marathon racing times? or are all of your marathons with a 2.4 mile swim and a 112 mile bike ride? Matt

My long runs are at about a minute per mile slower than my marathon race pace. I’m training now for my first Ironman Tri – which is the only triathlon with a marathon as the run. Most triathlons are shorter events, for example: Sprints: 1/4 mile S, 10 Mile B, 3 Mile R Olympic: 1 Mile S, 25 B, 6 R All my previous marathons have been unassociated with tri’s.I’ll probably run a marathon this spring as part of my training. My training mileage mix will be different than for other M’s, so it’ll be interesting to see how that goes. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike writes: Heck,  I usually get to at least 22…. <g Okay.  :)  Let me ask you a question Mike, this may be a little off subject and I’m not a TriGuy, just a runner/racer/coach.  I see where you do run the full marathon length in tri’s and/or in marathons so I can see where you would/can help on training for that distance.  Although we disagree on the mileage/distance needed.  :)  But alot of the people I see/hear doing Tri’s nowadays do the smaller more popular tri events.  The 1k swim, 40k bike, 5/10k run etc..  Nothing wrong with this, infact it’s great.  But I hear them delving out all this marathon advice when their long run in practice or the event may be a 10k or 10 miler at most, maybe a hair longer.  Same is said with the weekend runner or 5k runner giving out this advise who has no clue what it really takes, and they have never ran a marathon before.  I know they’re only trying to help but it just burns my butt when other marathoners try and give out sound distance advice and get hammered by them.

If you’re simply saying that people who haven’t run marathons shouldn’t advise others on how to do it, I agree completely.  Sort of like the Pope giving sex advice… What I’m not sure of is who you’re talking about – which triathetes are "hammering" someone or giving out particularly bad advice. I haven’t picked up on that. And are you sure that the triathletes you have in mind haven’t done marathons? Altho it is true that most triathlons are considerably shorter than an Ironman (THANK GOD!), so are most road races shorter than a marathon. Is it valid to criticize a triathlete for giving marathon advice – because they do mostly shorter non-Ironman races – yet accept advise from a runner who does mostly 5K’s and 10K’s? <IF both have done marathons, of course. You could even argue that a triathlete might be a good source of info on longer distance running because they always start out the run fatigued. The training needed to run a 10K in a tri – which might be preceded by an 1 1/2 hour effort, might be valuble in dealing with the last stages of a marathon. Again, I know we all want to help others here as this it what this forum is about.  But it concerns me when I see some of these statements and advice given that my not be helpful to the person asking for and needing help on the marathon.  I’m not suggesting it’s my way or the highway and I am always right or all marathoners are always right in their statements and coaching.  I’m not saying anyone (just because he’s a marathoner) is any smarter or better to coach than anyone else here but some of this advise I’ve seen here (in my opinion) is really non beneficial and maybe counterproductive and is given BY runners who have no idea what it takes to run a good marathon.

When giving running advice, I harken back to my "pure" running periods and what I did then. One thing we should always consider is – what are the person’s goals. I have no personally unique advise to give someone who wants to run a sub 3 hour marathon. That’s beyond my level. I can offer them standard, safe advise based on my background knowledge  - and from hanging out here. So I try to limit myself to responding to the more ordinary among us and leave the speed merchant questions to those who can do that. Can someone run a sub 3 marathon with a maximum long run of 15 miles? Probably not. Can someone run a 4 hour marathon with that? Yes. Does someone planning to run a 4 hour marathon need to run 20+ miles? Not neccesarily. I just like to add a little counter-point to those who insist that you HAVE to run 20+. <Not that you insist, mind you … Training for a triathlon and training for only runs is different, tho similar in principle. It’s the mixture of LSD, endurance, and speed workouts that works.  How you get them varies. Let me reiterate, everyone is intitled to their opinion and no individual is necessarily any better at coaching than anyone else.  Heck even the veterans disagree alot.  :)  But I believe the veteran marathoners here have a little more knowledge than some non marathoners in regards to the marathon and advice regarding training.

I couldn’t agree more. Just like I look for advice on training for the Ironman from previous Ironmen (and Ironwomen), someone looking to do a marathon should listen to vets. Whew!!! Oh, so I guess my question is:  :)   Do you have any idea of the number/ratio of participants in these shorter tri’s compared to the full length Ironman type tri’s?

Probably on the same order of 5K’s and 10K’s to marathons. There are only a handful of IM distance events out there. Lots of shorter and middle distance tri’s, tho. Mike "TriBop" Tennent Remove "nospam." for email reply IMC ‘98 IronVirgins Website http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/imc_iv.htm WebRunner Running Page and my Model Railroad page http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/

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Mike writes: If you’re simply saying that people who haven’t run marathons shouldn’t advise others on how to do it, I agree completely.  Sort of like the Pope giving sex advice… What I’m not sure of is who you’re talking about – which triathetes are "hammering" someone or giving out particularly bad advice. I haven’t picked up on that. And are you sure that the triathletes you have in mind haven’t done marathons?

Mike, No I wasn’t meaning you, just others I’ve read here and personally heard out at the park and local races. Probably on the same order of 5K’s and 10K’s to marathons. There are only a handful of IM distance events out there. Lots of shorter and middle distance tri’s, tho.

I figured after I wrote that it may be difficult to determine, like you said it would be like trying to compare shrter races vs. marathons.  Thanks for the info, I was just curious. David/IndyRunr Wishing you and your families a wonderful, happy and safe holiday.

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: One thing we should always consider is – what are the person’s goals. To expand on this, it’s more than just the absolute time goals: it’s how much the person is desiring to maximize their potential.  This will differ based on natural talent, training background, etc. : Can someone run a sub 3 marathon with a maximum long run of 15 miles? Been there.  Done that.  Didn’t get a T-shirt, though. : Probably not. Can someone run a 4 hour marathon with that? Yes. Does : someone planning to run a 4 hour marathon need to run 20+ miles? Not : neccesarily. I just like to add a little counter-point to those who : insist that you HAVE to run 20+. First, as you said, the goal needs to be defined.  I’ll make a distinction between running a marathon and racing a marathon.  Running marathon means that your goal pace is slower that your typical training run.  In other words, you need to slow down simply to complete the distance.  If that is your goal, then runs over 20 miles are likely not needed, though I believe they would help. If you are going to race, to attempt to maximize your potential at the distance, where simply getting to the end is not a big deal but holding pace is, I think that runs over 20 are very helpful.  Simply put, you must have the distance base such that the mere mileage of the race is not daunting.  I think this is best achieved by doing the longest training runs you can provided they are not damaging you more than helping you.  This will obviously vary from person to person. Once you get to that point, you need to assess your own abilities to see what specific training will really help you.  I personally seem to have very good natural speed and a tendancy to run even my long runs at a pretty good clip.  But the distance is such that I tend to crash.  For me, I’ve found it’s pretty simple; the more distance I do, the better I run.  That correlation has yet to fail up to 80 miles a week and long runs of 21 miles. My friend Carlos, who posted about doing faster training runs, is a different case than I.  He habitually puts in way more mileage, and does not find the distance itself a problem.  His natural top end speed is pretty good, but he has trouble carrying the speed a long way.  For him, the faster paced long runs work well. For my friend Rick, the distance and holding speed was no problem.  He sustained long periods of 80 mile weeks and 20 mile runs as his standard training.  Throwing in an extra 6 on the occasional Sunday was not a problem.  What he really benefitted from was doing shorter runs and repeats much faster than marathon pace to increase his top speed. Among the elite, there are different things that work for different people.  I’ve heard stories of Jane Welzel going up and blasting hard for 20+ milers on mountain trails.  A friend who trained with Danny Gonzalez told of doing 2 10 mile loops: the first at a good pace (probably low 6 minutes for them) and having Danny rip the second 10 at well under 5:30 pace.  A woman friend who is hoping to hit the Olympic Trials qualifying this year has a workout I’ve dubbed the "lucky 7s" workout: 7 miles easy, 7 miles faster than marathon pace, the 7 miles easy at the end. There is one common theme there.  If you really want to be a good marathoner, it ain’t rocket science; run long and run fast. -pfrench

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Question:

These are last years results. C. Kinney – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – tes: Does anyone know what happened at St. Anthony’s today?  i.e. Who were the first five pros for men and women and other results? — Psycho Fred Men: 1. Greg Welch 1:48:25 2. Alec Rukosuev 1:48:48 3. Tony DeBoom 1:49:37 4. Wes Hobson 1:50:19 5. Garrett McCarthy 1:51:14 Women 1. Michellie Jones 2:00:35 2. Sian Welch 2:02:43 3. Sabina Graf-Westhoff 2:05:38 4. Sue Latshaw 2:05:56 5. Lauren Jensen 2:06:15 More results are at www.stanthonys.com/triathlon and www.cftsommersports.com Chris So many miles to go and so little time.        | Lehigh University Therefore, I must go faster.                   | Department of Mech Eng & Mech   _           __0       o                      | Packard Lab ___o_  +   _ <,_   + <| = good night’s sleep| 19 Packard Ave ~~~~~~     (_)/_(_)     –                     | Bethlehem, PA 18015

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -tes: Does anyone know what happened at St. Anthony’s today?  i.e. Who were the first five pros for men and women and other results? — Psycho Fred Men: 1. Greg Welch 1:48:25 2. Alec Rukosuev 1:48:48 3. Tony DeBoom 1:49:37 4. Wes Hobson 1:50:19 5. Garrett McCarthy 1:51:14 Women 1. Michellie Jones 2:00:35 2. Sian Welch 2:02:43 3. Sabina Graf-Westhoff 2:05:38 4. Sue Latshaw 2:05:56 5. Lauren Jensen 2:06:15 More results are at www.stanthonys.com/triathlon and www.cftsommersports.com Chris

WHOA! Is it really possible that this year’s results could be *exactly* identicle to last year’s? Check those websites again, Chris. Andrew Peabody Coconut Grove — Internet Communications Of America

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Does anyone know what happened at St. Anthony’s today?  i.e. Who were the first five pros for men and women and other results? — Psycho Fred

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I’ve been trying their website where they post all results.  They’re not up yet but the address is: http://www.cftsommersports.com/results.htm They say they’ll have same day results but it’s early yet.  Same day results is amazing anyway.  Anyone have any early unofficial reports though? -Scott

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tes: Does anyone know what happened at St. Anthony’s today?  i.e. Who were the first five pros for men and women and other results? — Psycho Fred

Men: 1. Greg Welch 1:48:25 2. Alec Rukosuev 1:48:48 3. Tony DeBoom 1:49:37 4. Wes Hobson 1:50:19 5. Garrett McCarthy 1:51:14 Women 1. Michellie Jones 2:00:35 2. Sian Welch 2:02:43 3. Sabina Graf-Westhoff 2:05:38 4. Sue Latshaw 2:05:56 5. Lauren Jensen 2:06:15 More results are at www.stanthonys.com/triathlon and www.cftsommersports.com Chris So many miles to go and so little time.        | Lehigh University Therefore, I must go faster.                   | Department of Mech Eng & Mech   _           __0       o                      | Packard Lab ___o_  +   _ <,_   + <| = good night’s sleep| 19 Packard Ave ~~~~~~     (_)/_(_)     –                     | Bethlehem, PA 18015

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