Looking for a few training options.
check out the sandiego tri club website, they swim friday nites at 6pmat the cove. there are masterswims all over the place- i swim at sports therapy m-f 6pm, but they have 5 other sets during the day. don’t forget to check out im cali on the 19th in oceanside. there will be tons of training going on in sd getting ready for the season. todd sandiego
One of my friends is going to be out there in may for business. Looking for a few training options. I am a little familiar with the area, having spent some time there myself. Do people swim in the cove at La Jolla at any certain time? Any other group workouts besides the masters in the morning at UCSD? (please list times) was thinking run workouts, as a bike is not an option. thanks in advance for your help. john buechler see you at the races.
Since none of my Las Cruces friends care to comment, I’ll put in my two cents for NM. Grassroots racing is alive and well here. Racing season lasts all year, including about 25 races in the Southwest Challenge Series. There are rarely more than a couple of days when its not a good day to get out and ride, any time of the day. Cruces will typically be ten degrees cooler than Tucson/Phoenix. It gets windy in the spring. Outdoor swimming possibilities in the south are next-to-nonexistent, if you don’t count Elephant Butte lake, halfway between Cruces and Socorro, where I live. For southern NM, check out the Southwest Triathlon Club (http://www.swtriclub.org) based in El Paso. Socorro has the Socorro Striders and Riders (http://www.sdc.org/~ssr). Albuquerque and points north has TriClub New Mexico (http://www.poppyfield.com/triclub) — Matt Perini Tel: 505-835-4800 x10 PMC, Inc. FAX: 505-838-1735
Jeffry, I live in Tucson and consider it a great place to train. I would have to say that with the amount of pro’s that show up here in the winter and spring that they would agree. I train outdoors year round with an occassional indoor venture when it rains (desert=not to often!). There are several city pools that are open year round for lap swimming and the UofA’s Hilibrand pool has a masters program frequented by Jimmy Riccotillo and in the spring Peter Reid. As far as biking there is pretty much everything you need…hills, flats, and sometimes wind (sometimes very strong winds). As far as traffic, its not too bad. It could be better but I’ve been in a lot worse! For running there is a great trail network, numerous tracks and lots of roads. The weather here is mild in the winter (todays forcast calls for 83 and clear : ) … ) and HOT in the summer. Summer temps frequently are above 105 but its very low humidity (usually single digit) except for the monsoon season which lasts about 5 weeks (lots of rain). The race sesson is long here. The first races start in Febuary with the last race being in November. Some web sites and people to contact are http://www.tucsonracing.com (Local race series) http://www.multisporttraining.com (coaching and the multi sport madness tri/cycling club) http://www.3disciplines.com (more races) Hope this is of some help to you. If you have any more questions about training in Tucson drop me an e mail. B.Oliver
hey trifolks, i
I think the chips are great. I ran a race on Thanksgiving and was checking the race results by the end of the day on the net. Barry Halligan
I think the chips are great. I ran a race on Thanksgiving and was checking the race results by the end of the day on the net.
That’s not really due to the chip; many races can post results same day that are not using the chip. — Tom Kelley
This is true, however, Tom’s suggestion takes on much more volunteer/staff labor, especially for 1000+ participant races. But to rent chips costs $$, and is less error-prone, so take your pick. happy trails, rich in austin, tx – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the chips are great. I ran a race on Thanksgiving and was checking the race results by the end of the day on the net. That’s not really due to the chip; many races can post results same day that are not using the chip. — Tom Kelley
At the Indy Mini a sponsor put their name on the velcro strap and the participant kept that piece of the ‘apparatus’. At the end we simply popped open the velcro and handed over the chip. It would seem to be a lot of trouble for both the runners and the race organizers if the velcro had to be returned…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s funny, but the one I used was actually held on with Velcro so they could take it off easier at the end of the race. They take the chip and leave the velcro strap in in your shoe laces. Isn’t that they way they all work? Thanks, Roger The chips around LI are round grid like things. They used to have velcro straps but not any more. I think the race directors didn’t get enough of them back (I’ve got a few, they are great for holding my pants back while I bike to work. On another related note I wonder how soon before a shoe company stitches a velcro strap just for the chip. Remind me to patten that idea. Andy
On another related note I wonder how soon before a shoe company stitches a velcro strap just for the chip.
Too late. Quintana Roo (triathlon related products) has one out for triathletes. It’s padded for comfort. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38
The way I understand the chip system, the first person to cross the finish line would not necessarily be the winner, right? Someone behind him could have ran a faster race but crossed the line later. Has this ever happened to anyone’s knowledge?
It’s possible in a race with a "wave" start like triathlons commonly have, but even they start the Pro’s first so it’s unlikely. It’s more likely to happen in the age groups. USATF only recognizes the gun time, not chip adjusted times, for scoring a race. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38
Yes, you just HAVE to be smarter than the chip. Similar to improperly pinning on the race number, but I’d bet you want make the same mistake again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sounds like your own fault for 1) forgetting your chip 2) not tying it on securely I see this as operator error, not chip error. Hi, Permit me a rant. At yesterday’s Thanksgiving race I was standing on the starting line talking with a friend when the race director mentions something about the chip. This made me look down to see I didn’t have mine. I sprinted back to my car tied it on and sprinted back to the starting line. Not the kind of warm up I would have liked but that is the price of being forgetful. Well, I’m running along in the first mile and for an unknown reason I look down at my shoe to see that the chip had fallen off! I kept running thinking it would be better to do the race and find the chip later. I ran across the finish and through the chute and back out to the first mile to search. Needless to say I didn’t find it. Turns out I wasn’t scored. I would have taken 3 in my age group too! Not that I’m complaining about loosing an award, I’ve got enough of them gathering dust (forgive me if I sound calous). But race directors should be aware that chips do fall off or are forgotten and can be easily mixed up. Having a scoring chip system doesn’t eliminate all scoring problems. There should be a back up plan in the event of failure. I’m sure that chips are the wave of the future and will eventually be the norm. But in the meantime they aren’t fool proof yet. Peace, Andy
Andrew, sorry about your problem but I love the Chip. And it sounds as if you’er to blame, not the race or RD. Like running the wrong course or losing your bib. Sorry but not much sympathy here. I hope all races go to the Chip, it’s the best way of scoring. The way I understand the chip system, the first person to cross the finish line would not necessarily be the winner, right? Someone behind him could have ran a faster race but crossed the line later. Has this ever happened to anyone’s knowledge?
The chip, like your bib number, is essential to being a participant in the event. If you don’t wear your number, you can be disqualified from the event (USATF rule) and, though it’s not a rule, the chip is handled in the same manner, you have to wear it to be considered a participant in the event; it’s your own responsibility. I don’t know of any chip scorers who use a backup system, other than the second set of mats at the finish line. The fact is that the system works so well, it doesn’t really require a backup. As far as the first person to cross the finish line not necessarily being the winner, this is not possible under USATF rules, which indicate that the race officially starts at the sound of the gun. There is a widespread misconception about the chip that has people beliveing that they will always get a chip/net time and that time will be their official time. The fact is that most races, other than large marathons, don’t provide net times (I know this to be true of many chip scorers) and would rather provide a split time if the equipment is available. It seems to me that having a split would be more valuable than having a net time. — Tom Kelley
The way I understand the chip system, the first person to cross the finish line would not necessarily be the winner, right? Someone behind him could have ran a faster race but crossed the line later. Has this ever happened to anyone’s knowledge? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Andrew, sorry about your problem but I love the Chip. And it sounds as if you’er to blame, not the race or RD. Like running the wrong course or losing your bib. Sorry but not much sympathy here. I hope all races go to the Chip, it’s the best way of scoring. David "IndyRunr"
regarding the chip gone a-wandering midrace,
…or maybe swallow it before each race Now…that would certainly change the meaning of "post race recovery" wouldnt it?!
Chip times are not used in official timing. I would be unlikely for your scenario to happen. I don’t doubt it could but unlikely. Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The way I understand the chip system, the first person to cross the finish line would not necessarily be the winner, right? Someone behind him could have ran a faster race but crossed the line later. Has this ever happened to anyone’s knowledge? Andrew, sorry about your problem but I love the Chip. And it sounds as if you’er to blame, not the race or RD. Like running the wrong course or losing your bib. Sorry but not much sympathy here. I hope all races go to the Chip, it’s the best way of scoring. David "IndyRunr"
Jennifer – or maybe swallow it before each race
See "wrong diet?" thread. Palmer
Make it mandatory for the entire population and you’ll get my vote. –Dirk
Sure, and put a big 666 in front of it and tell people that they can’t buy or sell unless they have the chip. Jim Bartlett
Sounds like your own fault for 1) forgetting your chip 2) not tying it on securely I see this as operator error, not chip error.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Permit me a rant. At yesterday’s Thanksgiving race I was standing on the starting line talking with a friend when the race director mentions something about the chip. This made me look down to see I didn’t have mine. I sprinted back to my car tied it on and sprinted back to the starting line. Not the kind of warm up I would have liked but that is the price of being forgetful. Well, I’m running along in the first mile and for an unknown reason I look down at my shoe to see that the chip had fallen off! I kept running thinking it would be better to do the race and find the chip later. I ran across the finish and through the chute and back out to the first mile to search. Needless to say I didn’t find it. Turns out I wasn’t scored. I would have taken 3 in my age group too! Not that I’m complaining about loosing an award, I’ve got enough of them gathering dust (forgive me if I sound calous). But race directors should be aware that chips do fall off or are forgotten and can be easily mixed up. Having a scoring chip system doesn’t eliminate all scoring problems. There should be a back up plan in the event of failure. I’m sure that chips are the wave of the future and will eventually be the norm. But in the meantime they aren’t fool proof yet. Peace, Andy
There should be a back up plan in the event of failure. Backup Plan for your next race: Make certain the chip is properly laced in under a double-knot. – Mike
That’s funny, but the one I used was actually held on with Velcro so they could take it off easier at the end of the race. They take the chip and leave the velcro strap in in your shoe laces. Isn’t that they way they all work? Thanks, Roger
That’s funny, but the one I used was actually held on with Velcro so they could take it off easier at the end of the race. They take the chip and leave the velcro strap in in your shoe laces. Isn’t that they way they all work? Thanks, Roger
The chips around LI are round grid like things. They used to have velcro straps but not any more. I think the race directors didn’t get enough of them back (I’ve got a few, they are great for holding my pants back while I bike to work. On another related note I wonder how soon before a shoe company stitches a velcro strap just for the chip. Remind me to patten that idea. Andy
Backup Plan for your next race: Make certain the chip is properly laced in under a double-knot. I suppose as a fool-proof method, but perhaps extreme, you could have it surgically implanted beneath the skin.
Make it mandatory for the entire population and you’ll get my vote. –Dirk
Andrew, Well, look on the bright side, bet you won’t forget your chip again. You don’t sound callous.You’ve earned your awards! Bet that sprint deserved an award.:) Laurie" we made mistakes, we learn" brillant huh? 
Backup Plan for your next race: Make certain the chip is properly laced in under a double-knot.
I suppose as a fool-proof method, but perhaps extreme, you could have it surgically implanted beneath the skin. Jennifer – or maybe swallow it before each race
Permit me a rant.
I almost forgot mine the first race also. However it worked out super and now I’m spoiled wishing more races could have the chip. But you do have a good point, and I hope they have a backup plan if something goes wrong. Roger
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Permit me a rant. At yesterday’s Thanksgiving race I was standing on the starting line talking with a friend when the race director mentions something about the chip. This made me look down to see I didn’t have mine. I sprinted back to my car tied it on and sprinted back to the starting line. Not the kind of warm up I would have liked but that is the price of being forgetful. Well, I’m running along in the first mile and for an unknown reason I look down at my shoe to see that the chip had fallen off! I kept running thinking it would be better to do the race and find the chip later. I ran across the finish and through the chute and back out to the first mile to search. Needless to say I didn’t find it. Turns out I wasn’t scored. I would have taken 3 in my age group too! Not that I’m complaining about loosing an award, I’ve got enough of them gathering dust (forgive me if I sound calous). But race directors should be aware that chips do fall off or are forgotten and can be easily mixed up. Having a scoring chip system doesn’t eliminate all scoring problems. There should be a back up plan in the event of failure. I’m sure that chips are the wave of the future and will eventually be the norm. But in the meantime they aren’t fool proof yet.
Yeah, well you’ve proved that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peace, Andy
Andrew, sorry about your problem but I love the Chip. And it sounds as if you’er to blame, not the race or RD. Like running the wrong course or losing your bib. Sorry but not much sympathy here. I hope all races go to the Chip, it’s the best way of scoring. David "IndyRunr"
Hi, Permit me a rant. At yesterday’s Thanksgiving race I was standing on the starting line talking with a friend when the race director mentions something about the chip. This made me look down to see I didn’t have mine. I sprinted back to my car tied it on and sprinted back to the starting line. Not the kind of warm up I would have liked but that is the price of being forgetful. Well, I’m running along in the first mile and for an unknown reason I look down at my shoe to see that the chip had fallen off! I kept running thinking it would be better to do the race and find the chip later. I ran across the finish and through the chute and back out to the first mile to search. Needless to say I didn’t find it. Turns out I wasn’t scored. I would have taken 3 in my age group too! Not that I’m complaining about loosing an award, I’ve got enough of them gathering dust (forgive me if I sound calous). But race directors should be aware that chips do fall off or are forgotten and can be easily mixed up. Having a scoring chip system doesn’t eliminate all scoring problems. There should be a back up plan in the event of failure. I’m sure that chips are the wave of the future and will eventually be the norm. But in the meantime they aren’t fool proof yet. Peace, Andy
Emilio, Still haven’t gotten that catalog. Ordering some stuff by phone today. Looking forward to seeing more of the line. thanx, Mike Mauldin 736-C Sedgefield Rd. Charlotte, NC 28209 Mike Mauldin Charlotte, NC
ITS ON THE WAY MIKE, SENT IT OUR MYSELF! EMILIO DE SOTO II
(Yes this is an Advertisement for our Website. I figured that since I post so much and answer so many posts, that I can do this, and based on the response from your RSTers, you like the deals!) http://www.desotosport.com WE HAVE MODIFIED THE DE SOTO SPORT WEBSITE. 1. Check out our new SPECIALS section. We have put a lot of our current Summer 1998 styles on sale for HALF PRICE. This offer was limited at first to our prefered customers, and now we have extended to those of you in Rec.Sport.Triathlon. This type of sale is not something we normally do at this time of the year (and we do not expect to do this ever again) but we have a lot of clothes left and we can’t convince enough dealers to buy they De Soto Sport. They are too stuck on the big companies, those that are not really triathlon lines. So you get the great deals right now! 2. ONLINE ORDERING. You can now order online as well as by telephone and fax. We have an easy-to-use orderform that you just fill out and submit directly to us. Please read carefully the ordering instructions and this offer is limited to United States residents. 3. MOST POPULAR STYLES. Along with the SPECIALS on sale now, you will find a section with our most popular styles (many are on sale now). This offer is only for a limited amount of time so check it out quickly! Emilio De Soto II President
What a fabulous weekend !!! The best Wildflower ever ! I’m in major grief that I was unable to connect with all of you RST-ers ! At 4:00 on Saturday I was in the lonnnnnnnnng women’s 30+ registration line, which went on forever. Upon finalizing my packet, the Long Course Awards and IQ slots were beginning. So exciting ! Anyone here get one?? Combat swimming is not my forte so was quite disappointed in my swim. Where did that headwind, on the fastest part of the 40k bike course, come from??? Arrgh ! That run was challenging as always ! I got very lucky Sunday and placed 2nd in my division. Let’s hear your stories……. Lynne
Goodness. Second in your age group!! Congratulations!! This was my second triathlon ever, and boy was it a rude awakening!!!! Here are just a few of the things that I learned this weekend: 1. I didn’t train enough hills. 2. I need a better bike. (I’m currently riding a steel Specialized Allez from about 1990 with no racing wheels that felt at least 50 lbs heavy up some of those hills.) 3. For every jerk in triathlons (screaming at people to get out of their way in a very demanding tone), there is another super nice person willing to give up their race to help another triathlete in trouble. For example, I saw lot of people on the run course helping each other with cramps, giving each other advice, and cheering each other on to keep running. 4. Swimming is my strong discipline (I was first out of the water in my age group and about 25th at the end of the bike!) and I don’t need to focus more on the biking. O man, those hills. 5. Expos are really fun, and SUCK you in to buying lots of equipment that you never knew you REALLY needed. 6. Never wear a new shirt on race day, as I have major chafing on the insides of my arms from my speedo mesh shirt. 7. I lifted my head straight up too much on the swim, as I have major chafing on my neck from the wetsuit/cap combination. 8. As an age group woman, I will always have to deal with swimming around and sometimes over (oops!) older men that cannot swim. 9. No matter how fast I thought I had my transitions down to, there’s always someone doing less, wearing less and getting in and out faster than me. 10. Mental toughness is very, very, very important. 11. Everyone who finished that race has something to be very proud of. 12. Expect the worst and the best of weather, and from what I know, that’s probably some of the worst we’ll get here in California. (Let’s see — Overcast chills, blistering sun, windy and chilly, DOWNPOURING rain (of course some of you were done by the time it really rained), and downright pleasant mild sun.) 13. I have a lot to learn about the sport 14. Volunteers make a huge difference, and really help you get through some tough times. One of the Cal Poly guys saw me hurting and decided to run with me for a little while and cheer me up. It worked, as I somehow forgot about the pain when he was there. 15. No matter how bad off you think you are, there’s always someone worse than you. Let’s see…. How about the poor girl who crashed hard at the bottom of our first big hill? Anyone know how she is? I heard she had to get airlifted. How about the several people I saw running in with their bikes? How about the collegiate girl I passed on a mountain bike who had BAD road rash all over her side and back? How about the person I passed on the run who I think was trying to run, but was actually just sort of bobbing up and down…. a lot slower than she could have walked? There are many more…. 16. Mechanical problems can really throw off your race — even the slightest thing like a chain coming off. Even though you only lose 30 seconds or so, it can cause enormous difference in your disposition. 17. Camping and triathlons don’t necessarily go together — although I LOVE both of them. You need SO much stuff for tri’s, and so much stuff for camping that it seemed impossible that i fit it all in my car. I would definitely consider bringing a motor home next time. (Sleeping on the ground doesn’t do wonders for morning of the race comfort, either.) There’s lots more things I learned but those are just some. Despite all the pain and discomfort I felt during the race, I somehow still managed to have fun and enjoy the atmosphere. I am hooked on the sport. That’s all!! Courtney Thomas
Lynne, Congratulations on your result! I was fortunate enough to have my best result at Wildflower, won the 35-39 age group and snagged an Ironman slot! I did not what place I was in during the race until the long hill at mile ten. I ran scared from that point on and finished in 4:35. I was jubliant afterwards, but I am still having trouble walking properly. Sean Ford
Congrats to both of you! I hope you have a great race in Hawaii! Lynne, Congratulations on your result! I was fortunate enough to have my best result at Wildflower, won the 35-39 age group and snagged an Ironman slot! I did not what place I was in during the race until the long hill at mile ten. I ran scared from that point on and finished in 4:35. I was jubliant afterwards, but I am still having trouble walking properly. Sean Ford
!!!!!
Here it is a week after Wildflower and I am finally sitting down at the ‘puter and reading all of the posts. First of all, congrats to Tri Baby on the IMH lottery pick. I will now have to reserve a space at my neighbors with the satelite and try to pick up some local Kona news in October. Is tri-crew extraordinaire "Skippy" going with you? How about all the bay area RST’ers getting together and throwing a send off party for you? We can all convoy to the airport and really make a scene. Just a thought. Secondly, I want to thank Tim for being there for me on the run. I might still be out there if it weren’t for him pushing me to keep going. "By the way people, there is no need to check the results for the olympic race for me. "I" know i bombed." Lets ride some hills Tim! I enjoyed meeting the few people I did. Joe, Chaz, Randy, Tim, Tricia, Skippy and the others whose names escape me. Wildflower was great as an event, not just a race. I plan on doing the long course next year, so anybody who can is more than welcome to send me encouragement. Next race, San Jose. See ya’ll there.
Hey Garlicdude I think a big send-off is a great idea… better yet, let’s have a big send-off and a congratulations/welcome back bash at the airport. If nothing else, we can use the trip to the "city" as a long training ride (for those of us still racing in October)!!! How ’bout it Tricia? I bet I could even swing some local news coverage. We could give Bay Area Triathlon a real kick in the pants. I’ll even bake the cookies. By the way, a reciprocating ditto on theWildflower run, Butch. It was fun pulling together with someone. It sure made that long uphill go by faster… How about the first weekend in June for that ride? Any other Bay Area RSTer’s game for jaunt up to Lick Observatory (Mt. Hamilton)? And…Congratulations, Tricia, Carlos, and all the rest who are headed for the big show. Tim "Victory is having the courage to tri"
RST is ripe for a F.A.Q. file, of which I will propose an outline if a) none is in place already or b) none of the most experienced people does it first.
The address of the FAQ has been posted several times recently. Once again, it is as follows: http://www.interactive.net/~troehr/tri-faq.html Tri-Baby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 – 13:04:09 *** http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie
Survey results – general comments Thanks to all the experienced athletes who responded! I am a little disappointed for the low number of respondents, though, since I do believe that things like hydration procedures, not dealt in enough depth or detail on RST to my knowledge, are important for us beginners. RST is ripe for a F.A.Q. file, of which I will propose an outline if a) none is in place already or b) none of the most experienced people does it first. Anyway, back to the survey major findings… 1. Most people prefer a sort of aero-drink system (JetStream Rx… what does it look like?!?), which only requires the rider to lean forward on the handlebar and take a sip from a straw coming out of a reservoir of streamlined shape secured to the stem/handlebar/aerobars. 2. Nobody uses a camelback system in a race, possibly due to a) restraint of thorax expansion in breathing b) time delays in putting it on/off. Although one respondents uses it in training. 3. Extra water bottles are used as backup, either in the classical position down/forward or in a cage secured to the seat. Although one respondent uses exclusively the water bottle in the classical position. I found this survey helpful and, in fact, I am going to install some sort of aero-drink/jetstream system asap to get used to it. Further comments and contributions are greatly appreciated. ciao Roberto Survey data Legend: Hydration systems (HS): WBC = water bottle, classical position close to crank set WBS = water bottle/s in cage behind seat AD = Aero Drink system (or equivalent) in front of handlebar CB = Camel Back (or equivalent) on your shoulders #ODT = number of Olympic Distance triathlons #IM = number of Ironmans The "(#)" to the side of a name indicates comments/qualifications, reported in the corresponding footnote below. Name Hydration Systems #ODT #IM WBC WBS AD CB Mick O’Connor (1) X – X - 20 - Vince Dietsch (2) – X X - 8 3 Cary Purdy (3) X – - - 6+ – Mike Tennent - – X - 6+ – Richard Lane - – X - 15 1 Comments/qualifications: (1) I want to qualify this a little, I used classic in the late 80’s, one classic and one behind the seat in the early 90’s, now I use one classic and one aero (JetStream Rx). This is for racing only…I use the Camelback in training sometimes. (2) I have needed both the aerobar drink system in front of handlebar and behind the seat for both Olympic distance and Ironman(Hawaii), since in a 2hr+ race I never want just the 20-24 oz that my Jetstream holds. The behind-the-seat option is something that has to be gotten right – the Profile ‘arm’ system just won’t stay up if you go over rough roads or RR tracks (I’ve bought 2 different Profile models). I had a lot of luck last year w/ the XLab behind the seat bottle holder – they hold the bottles easily w/in reach and almost directly up, not pointing too far backwards (which torpedos bottles on rough roads or bumps). It costs a little more, but you only have to buy one. (3) Also ran one long course triathlon.
Mike, my hats off to you. I don’t think anyone has done a better job of summarizing the St. Anthony’s drafting question as you have in your post. Now, if we can only get the folks at USAT, USAT Pro committee, and St. Anthony’s to listen and respond. April is still months away and a change of heart whould be a huge step in demonstrating some backbone and reflect the wishes of the majority of the tri community. Thanks again Bernie Sher
I believe both St. Anthony’s and USAT, including at least one member of the USAT pro committee has listened and has responded. They simply have not (at least to this point) complied with your wishes. In addition, although assuming that the majority of the tri community is anti-drafting, I think you are being a little bold in assuming that the majority of the tri community wants St. Anthony’s to reverse their one-time changes in format. If you have been following this thread, you would have seen opinions on both sides of the issue. — Louis J. Savastani "The wrinkles only go where the smiles have been." — J. Buffett
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snipped Ideally, the US would send no athletes to World’s or the Olympics in protest against the draft-legal format. Nope. We should definitely send a team. A team of triathletes, selected in a real triathlon. And hopefully kick ass against those wimpy drafters. That would be quite honorable. Instead, it’s pretty clear that the intent is to cover our bets and make sure some good drafters are on the team. What next, team training sessions to see who’s gonna be the domestiques and have to lead out the team sprinter? Ugh. After re-reading Karen & Rick’s posts, it’s evident that there is no legal, official, requirement by the USOC or ITU for the pro race at St. Anthony’s to be draft-legal. It doesn’t effect USOC grants, $$$, or anything. That’s smoke and mirrors. " 2. As a clear majority of the pros still favor non-drafting triathlons, we will hold our US Pro Championships separately at the non-drafting format (at Schu s International). The male and female Pro Champion will automatically qualify for the US Team as long as he/she has qualified via the ITU criteria." So, if the winners of the draft free US Pro Championships still make the team, and the St. Anthony’s race isn’t ITU sanctioned (meaning the winners still need ITU ranking) – why the need for drafting at St. Anthony’s? Why compromise the principles of the organization? Instead of granting the pro’s request, USAT could have pointed out that allowing a draft-legal race goes against USAT policy and the wishes of most of its members. And to sanction the race would weaken the fight against drafting. And that it really wouldn’t effect qualifying anyway, except to make sure the US team consisted of triathletes, not Draftletes. But that wasn’t done. That’s what pisses me off. No one’s asking any pro not to compete or give up their dream of being at the Olympics. What many of us would like is to see real triathletes represent the USA. BUT… that would not be fair to the athletes who have been focussing all of their efforts on those events. Yes, it would be heart-warming if every world-class triathlete was willing to make such a sacrifice, but come on, we all know that is not realistic. It’s not the fault of the athletes that the ITU decided to change the rules. Again. No-one is asking them not to compete. Just to qualify as a "real" triathlete in a real triathlon. And then compete in ITU’s Draftathon. Think about it: You’re a talented athlete. You’ve worked hard, and for the past couple of years you’ve had "Olympics" on your mind. Then the international governing body changes the rules for the Olympic competition in your sport. Well, that’s not going to change your focus, dammit! You’ve been aiming at this for too long! Then a bunch of weekend warrior amateurs scream that they disapprove of the "new" version of the sport, and force your NGB to withdraw your country from the Games. Don’tcha think you’d be just a tad FURIOUS? Like I said, who’s asking them to withdraw? Our NGB (USAT) chooses the team. Nothing says the team has to be chosen in a draft legal race. The pros requested it. USAT said yes. They could have said no and not compromised on drafting. They could also still change their minds and just say "no". Maybe if enough triathletes make their feelings known to St. Anthony’s and USAT, they might change their minds. No one is asking the USAT not to field a team, just to select it in draft free races that adhere to their own stated policy against drafting. BTW. if I have this wrong, and there is a requirement that the USAT national team has to be selected at a draft-legal race, I’ll gladly change my opinion. But Karen’s post indicated that is NOT the case. So where does that leave us? And where does it leave USAT? At this point, it seems to me that Steve and Rick and company are trying to work within the current system, cooperating where it is absolutely necessary, but continuing to argue against drafting where/whenever possible. But that’s my point. It wasn’t necessary. Where it leaves us is in a weaker position to fight drafting. Pure and simple. ITU can gleefully point out that USAT sanctions draft-legal races. End of debate. <snipped Forgive me for blathering! I’ve just been really distressed over this, it saddens me deeply to see our little tri-community coming apart at the seams. I hope Les MacDonald is pleased with himself. I share those feelings. It’s a damn shame. And I really feel for St. Anthony’s. I doubt if they anticipated the storm they’d cause. But they still have time to tell USAT to take their idea and, um, place it somewhere appropriate….. I sure would. Why risk the race’s future for a meaningless and un-necessary thing? Mike "TriBop" Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Beginner’s FAQ, Software Download the WebRunner Racing Utilities http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html
Mike, my hats off to you. I don’t think anyone has done a better job of summarizing the St. Anthony’s drafting question as you have in your post. Now, if we can only get the folks at USAT, USAT Pro committee, and St. Anthony’s to listen and respond. April is still months away and a change of heart whould be a huge step in demonstrating some backbone and reflect the wishes of the majority of the tri community. Thanks again Bernie Sher
(Mike Tennent) writes:
Mike: I think you nailed the point nicely. There are other options for US Pros to qualify for the ITU world championship, but they will put more of a financial burden on US Pros, i.e., they’ll have to pay for their own travel to foreign-based ITU World Cup races. And, it is too expensive and there’s not enough time to put together a US pro qualifying race (as Karen says). Why does the US Pro qualifier have to be a big money event? Why not invite them all to a race in the middle of the US, preferably in the south where’s its warmer. Maybe 100 participants will come. Make it a no-frills race, no hype, low budget race. I’ll believe it if a few race directors say it’s impossible to do, but is it really? Why taint USAT sanctioned events when it’s unnecessary? I’d rather see triathlon’s official voice in the US take a stand (which they seem to have taken) and stick to it through thick and thin (which they don’t seem to be doing here). I read from all this that USAT is trying to accomodate US Pros who need to make a living and to make a living, you have to play by the ITU rules which include drafting. I sympathize with the tough situation the pros and USAT have been put in, but couldn’t this situation have been foreseen months ago? And where is the 1998 event going to be held? Karen states that in succeeding years Pros will have their own draftathlon qualifier. What plans are underway for this event? I’d prefer our community to be kept together and not torn apart. Perhaps better planning could have prevented this. Of course this is said in hindsight, but 1998 will be here before we know it. Tucker Newberry
<snipped Ideally, the US would send no athletes to World’s or the Olympics in protest against the draft-legal format.
Nope. We should definitely send a team. A team of triathletes, selected in a real triathlon. And hopefully kick ass against those wimpy drafters. That would be quite honorable. Instead, it’s pretty clear that the intent is to cover our bets and make sure some good drafters are on the team. What next, team training sessions to see who’s gonna be the domestiques and have to lead out the team sprinter? Ugh. After re-reading Karen & Rick’s posts, it’s evident that there is no legal, official, requirement by the USOC or ITU for the pro race at St. Anthony’s to be draft-legal. It doesn’t effect USOC grants, $$$, or anything. That’s smoke and mirrors.
" 2. As a clear majority of the pros still favor non-drafting triathlons, we will hold our US Pro Championships separately at the non-drafting format (at Schu s International). The male and female Pro Champion will automatically qualify for the US Team as long as he/she has qualified via the ITU criteria." So, if the winners of the draft free US Pro Championships still make the team, and the St. Anthony’s race isn’t ITU sanctioned (meaning the winners still need ITU ranking) – why the need for drafting at St. Anthony’s? Why compromise the principles of the organization? Instead of granting the pro’s request, USAT could have pointed out that allowing a draft-legal race goes against USAT policy and the wishes of most of its members. And to sanction the race would weaken the fight against drafting. And that it really wouldn’t effect qualifying anyway, except to make sure the US team consisted of triathletes, not Draftletes. But that wasn’t done. That’s what pisses me off. No one’s asking any pro not to compete or give up their dream of being at the Olympics. What many of us would like is to see real triathletes represent the USA. BUT… that would not be fair to the athletes who have been focussing all of their efforts on those events. Yes, it would be heart-warming if every world-class triathlete was willing to make such a sacrifice, but come on, we all know that is not realistic. It’s not the fault of the athletes that the ITU decided to change the rules.
Again. No-one is asking them not to compete. Just to qualify as a "real" triathlete in a real triathlon. And then compete in ITU’s Draftathon. Think about it: You’re a talented athlete. You’ve worked hard, and for the past couple of years you’ve had "Olympics" on your mind. Then the international governing body changes the rules for the Olympic competition in your sport. Well, that’s not going to change your focus, dammit! You’ve been aiming at this for too long! Then a bunch of weekend warrior amateurs scream that they disapprove of the "new" version of the sport, and force your NGB to withdraw your country from the Games. Don’tcha think you’d be just a tad FURIOUS?
Like I said, who’s asking them to withdraw? Our NGB (USAT) chooses the team. Nothing says the team has to be chosen in a draft legal race. The pros requested it. USAT said yes. They could have said no and not compromised on drafting. They could also still change their minds and just say "no". Maybe if enough triathletes make their feelings known to St. Anthony’s and USAT, they might change their minds. No one is asking the USAT not to field a team, just to select it in draft free races that adhere to their own stated policy against drafting. BTW. if I have this wrong, and there is a requirement that the USAT national team has to be selected at a draft-legal race, I’ll gladly change my opinion. But Karen’s post indicated that is NOT the case. So where does that leave us? And where does it leave USAT? At this point, it seems to me that Steve and Rick and company are trying to work within the current system, cooperating where it is absolutely necessary, but continuing to argue against drafting where/whenever possible.
But that’s my point. It wasn’t necessary. Where it leaves us is in a weaker position to fight drafting. Pure and simple. ITU can gleefully point out that USAT sanctions draft-legal races. End of debate. <snipped Forgive me for blathering! I’ve just been really distressed over this, it saddens me deeply to see our little tri-community coming apart at the seams. I hope Les MacDonald is pleased with himself.
I share those feelings. It’s a damn shame. And I really feel for St. Anthony’s. I doubt if they anticipated the storm they’d cause. But they still have time to tell USAT to take their idea and, um, place it somewhere appropriate….. I sure would. Why risk the race’s future for a meaningless and un-necessary thing? Mike "TriBop" Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Beginner’s FAQ, Software Download the WebRunner Racing Utilities http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please Don t Boycott St. Anthony s A boycott of St.Anthony s will be striking out at the wrong target. The ITU would love to see a race like St. Anthony s go under because of internal US bickering. Remember, we should be fighting the ITU s policies, not St. Anthony s or USA Triathlon s. St. Anthony s is one of the best races we have here in the US. It has always been a favorite among pros and age groupers alike. It has a reputation for enforcing the drafting rules. They have actually been approached by the ITU to be a World Cup in the past and they have turned them down. They are also an IQ race, which means they are affiliated with possibly our best weapon against the ITU: the Hawaiian Ironman (because it is the most prestigious and wealthiest, is spectator-friendly, has the highest TV-ratings, and is NON-DRAFTING). USPTDC, the subcommittee of USA Triathlon that is made up of pro athletes, asked St. Anthony s to hold a draft-legal race, for this year only, so we could use it as our qualifier for the draft-legal World Championships. I would like to clear up some of the controversy that is floating about regarding this difficult decision and the factors that led us to it. 1. A clear majority of the pros, whom we were elected to represent, requested a draft-legal qualifier in order to field the best team possible for the Draftathlon World Champs. 2. As a clear majority of the pros still favor non-drafting triathlons, we will hold our US Pro Championships separately at the non-drafting format (at Schu s International). The male and female Pro Champion will automatically qualify for the US Team as long as he/she has qualified via the ITU criteria. 3. The ITU criteria, i.e. the hoops we must jump through to compete at the World Champs, are: -be ranked in the top 50 on the ITU circuit -place top 3 at regional champs (there is as yet no North American race designated) -be given a wild card slot (no criteria stated for how one earns one of these) Therefore, to ensure we have a team at the Worlds, each team member must compete at several World Cup races to get a ranking. By choosing our team early, we can concentrate our travel funds on sending the team members to the World Cup races. 4. There is currently not a single ITU race being held in the U.S. or Canada. We do not think it is fair to require everyone who wants to make the team to travel at big expense to a qualifier. Also, there are now restrictions on who can enter the World Cup races and we need our qualifier to be open to all US pros. 5. We considered putting on our own race qualifier, but we lack the funds and the time to find sponsors. (Our pro group is currently self-funded by our own professional dues, sanction fees from our championships, and sponsors for our team uniforms.) In the future, this will probably be the route we will take. 6. As an Olympic sport, USA Triathlon is now eligible for funding from the USOC. This funding comes in many different forms but some of it is via grants that are awarded based on our achieving performance markers which include top placings at World Champs. The entire sport in our country benefits from these grants as there is now money for junior development, coaching certification, marketing and P.R., and training of officials (i.e. drafting enforcement!). However, we must remain part of the ITU to receive this funding. 7. USA Triathlon will continue to press for change within the ITU, but it was clear from last year s attempted coup (Steve Locke for president) that we do not have the support of other countries governing bodies on the drafting issue and the dictatorship issue. The US is one of the only countries where the athletes have the power to make some of the decisions about the sport. We need to encourage foreign athletes that feel as we do to run for their board and get involved in the decision-making process. 8. Boycotting the St. Anthony s race may make yoaol://5863:126/rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions does not support drafting but they agree that we need to select the team most likely to succeed at Worlds, given the format. It is a credit to our country that we DON T have a single draft-legal race that we could use as a qualifier, so we had to ask for a special dispensation. 9. I would hope that anyone that feels a boycott is neccessary also boycotted the last two World Champs and will boycott the one coming up. The American contingent was by far the largest in the last two World s, and I know that the majority of these people do not favor drafting. I personally decided that not going to the World Champs would hurt me, our cause, and the US s funding from the USOC and actually help the ITU because they would claim that anyone that didn t go stayed away because they couldn t win. It was a dream come true to win in Cancun because it gave me the perfect position from which to continue to argue against the policy. Unfortunately, the ITU has become too strong for any one athlete or one governing body to argue against. I would rather see every person that is opposed to the drafting GO to the World s and line the race course holding signs that denounce drafting and the ITU s policies. Please don t hurt one of the few remaining great races for pros and amateurs in the US. Karen Smyers, USPTDC Board Member
Sorry about the multiple posts, something weird was happening with my server. Gregg
one thing that i don’t understand is how this effects age-groupers that compete in this race? (this is a serious question btw). if the pros feel that they would benefit from a draft-legal race, be it for funding or practice, then what is the big deal? k. — The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation please respond to newsgroup. Do not send mail. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] Of course it is silly to think that our pros need St. Anthony’s to be a draft legal race in order to qualify for some other draft legal race. But if I’m reading this correctly, this is an issue of funding, not drafting. USAT has certain travel and stipend moneys available. The established US pros have not had these moneys available to them, the recipient has been the Resident Team, made of up-and-comers. USAT would, I believe, spend some of its money on the established pros, except the USOC has certain strict, archaic, guidelines regarding disbursal of funds for Olympic development, and the USAT resident team of "amateurs" is an idea that warms the cockles of the USOC. But, USAT needs to have some good performances at ITU races. They realize that they can’t get these performances solely out of their resident team. USAT would like the more established pros to go. I speculate that the USAT can’t just give grant money to established pros, because the USOC wouldn’t go for it. If I am guessing right, the USAT needs to have a reasonable, and defensible, method for funding our established pros with Olympic development dollars, and the St. Anthony’s "shootout at the O.K. Corral" is it. I think if Karen Smyers, Jim Riccitello, et al, whom have been among America’s best spokespeople in triathlon, deem that this is the best solution, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and go along with it. We are an Olympic Sport, and USAT is silly to not fight for it’s share of Olympic development money if it’s available. But the USAT serves two constituencies, the mass-market age-group enthusiast, and Olympic Development. Neither cycling (the USCF), nor running (USA Track & Field) has been able to walk this tightrope successfully (when was the last time you went to a 10k that was USAT&F sanctioned?). But our own NGB is doing its best to serve both constituencies, and I commend them for it. This is an intramural squabble, and we need to keep our eye on the ball, folks. Every age-group athlete, every NGB worldwide that is elected by its enthusiast membership, every pro triathlete who competes in mass-start age-group racing, every race director who puts on an enthusiast triathlon, every company like mine that makes products for triathlon enthusiast, is in this together. We can’t eat each other, because our strength is in our numbers, our common view of what multi-sport means to us, and in the intrinsic value of what we do. QRman
Dan— This was an excellent post! I agree with you pretty much down the line. The past two days of posts on this topic have been depressing the hell outta me. The drafting issue has succeeded in creating destructive strife and division in the triathlon community in general and on RST in particular. I’m not sure that we need to be condemning USAT out of hand for the St. Anthony’s concession. As Ruth pointed out, I’m sure that neither Steve Locke nor Rick Margiotta has "any particular fondness for rocks or hard places." They, along with the pros, are in an untenable position. The ITU is in the driver’s seat, and the only way to get anywhere at this point is to cooperate with the driver until such a time as the wheel may be wrested from "his" grasp. Accusations of knee-jerk overreactions on RST have been floated, not unreasonably. As Dan points out, USAT does indeed serve two different constituencies— the run o’ the mill, mass market age groupers (who, by the way, can afford to be righteous and noble), and the Pros & Elite athletes. Yes, it would be fantastic if US athletes could present a completely unified front in opposition to legalized drafting. Yes, it would be wonderful if all of the Olympic-caliber triathletes and the World’s caliber pros were willing to blow off those major milestone competitions as a matter of principle. BUT…. is it fair of the lot of us to penalize them and demand that they forego the definitive events of their careers just because we, the age groupers, disapprove of the pro-draft format of those events? I’m sure that these are the very questions that USAT has been wrestling with. Ideally, the US would send no athletes to World’s or the Olympics in protest against the draft-legal format. BUT… that would not be fair to the athletes who have been focussing all of their efforts on those events. Yes, it would be heart-warming if every world-class triathlete was willing to make such a sacrifice, but come on, we all know that is not realistic. It’s not the fault of the athletes that the ITU decided to change the rules. Think about it: You’re a talented athlete. You’ve worked hard, and for the past couple of years you’ve had "Olympics" on your mind. Then the international governing body changes the rules for the Olympic competition in your sport. Well, that’s not going to change your focus, dammit! You’ve been aiming at this for too long! Then a bunch of weekend warrior amateurs scream that they disapprove of the "new" version of the sport, and force your NGB to withdraw your country from the Games. Don’tcha think you’d be just a tad FURIOUS? So where does that leave us? And where does it leave USAT? At this point, it seems to me that Steve and Rick and company are trying to work within the current system, cooperating where it is absolutely necessary, but continuing to argue against drafting where/whenever possible. I don’t doubt their commitment to that principle; it’s just that in order to effect change, they understand that sometimes you have to go along with the prevailing regime. We may not like it, but until we’re in their position, it’s pretty presumptuous for any of us to condemn them for "caving in". I’m just trying to understand all sides of the issue here, looking at it hypothetically and objectively. I’m not even sure I have a point, other than to say that the whole thing is demoralizing in its divisiveness. The bottom line is that the drafting issue really has created the great rift in our sport that many of us have feared for a long time, that between the age-groupers and the pros/elites. The great difference centers upon the fact that triathlon is neither the livelihood nor the major life’s goal for us age-groupers, and therefore we can afford to be high-minded and principled about keeping the sport "pure". Such is not the case for the pros/elites, who cannot afford to buck the existing power structure. In this regard, I’m afraid that the ITU has won at least this battle, though not the entire war. Forgive me for blathering! I’ve just been really distressed over this, it saddens me deeply to see our little tri-community coming apart at the seams. I hope Les MacDonald is pleased with himself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course it is silly to think that our pros need St. Anthony’s to be a draft legal race in order to qualify for some other draft legal race. But if I’m reading this correctly, this is an issue of funding, not drafting. USAT has certain travel and stipend moneys available. The established US pros have not had these moneys available to them, the recipient has been the Resident Team, made of up-and-comers. USAT would, I believe, spend some of its money on the established pros, except the USOC has certain strict, archaic, guidelines regarding disbursal of funds for Olympic development, and the USAT resident team of "amateurs" is an idea that warms the cockles of the USOC. But, USAT needs to have some good performances at ITU races. They realize that they can’t get these performances solely out of their resident team. USAT would like the more established pros to go. I speculate that the USAT can’t just give grant money to established pros, because the USOC wouldn’t go for it. If I am guessing right, the USAT needs to have a reasonable, and defensible, method for funding our established pros with Olympic development dollars, and the St. Anthony’s "shootout at the O.K. Corral" is it. I think if Karen Smyers, Jim Riccitello, et al, whom have been among America’s best spokespeople in triathlon, deem that this is the best solution, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and go along with it. We are an Olympic Sport, and USAT is silly to not fight for it’s share of Olympic development money if it’s available. But the USAT serves two constituencies, the mass-market age-group enthusiast, and Olympic Development. Neither cycling (the USCF), nor running (USA Track & Field) has been able to walk this tightrope successfully (when was the last time you went to a 10k that was USAT&F sanctioned?). But our own NGB is doing its best to serve both constituencies, and I commend them for it. This is an intramural squabble, and we need to keep our eye on the ball, folks. Every age-group athlete, every NGB worldwide that is elected by its enthusiast membership, every pro triathlete who competes in mass-start age-group racing, every race director who puts on an enthusiast triathlon, every company like mine that makes products for triathlon enthusiast, is in this together. We can’t eat each other, because our strength is in our numbers, our common view of what multi-sport means to us, and in the intrinsic value of what we do. QRman
Tri-Baby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie
[snip] Of course it is silly to think that our pros need St. Anthony’s to be a draft legal race in order to qualify for some other draft legal race. But if I’m reading this correctly, this is an issue of funding, not drafting. USAT has certain travel and stipend moneys available. The established US pros have not had these moneys available to them, the recipient has been the Resident Team, made of up-and-comers. USAT would, I believe, spend some of its money on the established pros, except the USOC has certain strict, archaic, guidelines regarding disbursal of funds for Olympic development, and the USAT resident team of "amateurs" is an idea that warms the cockles of the USOC. But, USAT needs to have some good performances at ITU races. They realize that they can’t get these performances solely out of their resident team. USAT would like the more established pros to go. I speculate that the USAT can’t just give grant money to established pros, because the USOC wouldn’t go for it. If I am guessing right, the USAT needs to have a reasonable, and defensible, method for funding our established pros with Olympic development dollars, and the St. Anthony’s "shootout at the O.K. Corral" is it. I think if Karen Smyers, Jim Riccitello, et al, whom have been among America’s best spokespeople in triathlon, deem that this is the best solution, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and go along with it. We are an Olympic Sport, and USAT is silly to not fight for it’s share of Olympic development money if it’s available. But the USAT serves two constituencies, the mass-market age-group enthusiast, and Olympic Development. Neither cycling (the USCF), nor running (USA Track & Field) has been able to walk this tightrope successfully (when was the last time you went to a 10k that was USAT&F sanctioned?). But our own NGB is doing its best to serve both constituencies, and I commend them for it. This is an intramural squabble, and we need to keep our eye on the ball, folks. Every age-group athlete, every NGB worldwide that is elected by its enthusiast membership, every pro triathlete who competes in mass-start age-group racing, every race director who puts on an enthusiast triathlon, every company like mine that makes products for triathlon enthusiast, is in this together. We can’t eat each other, because our strength is in our numbers, our common view of what multi-sport means to us, and in the intrinsic value of what we do. QRman
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. A clear majority of the pros, whom we were elected to represent, requested a draft-legal qualifier in order to field the best team possible for the Draftathlon World Champs. As this seems to be the central argument for making Saint Anthony’s draft-legal, allow me to refute it. Argument: a draft-legal race will select "the best team possible" Reality: a traditional triathlon is more demanding. A stronger athlete (i.e. Michellie Jones, Spencer Smith, Simon Lessing, etc.) will do well in draft-free AND draft-legal events. Pick the strongest ones in a draft-free race, and they will shine in the easier draft-legal format. It’s worked for Lessing and Smyers. Too bad she has done an about-face. Bravo to Jones and Smith for standing firm.
OK, I’m confused. I am definitely against drafting, but I fail to understand how your argument supports no-drafting events. The ITU has repeatedly used the exact same argument to say that drafting does NOT change triathlon. The same athletes win with or without drafting. I, too, feel that triathlon is an individual sport. IMHO, drafting has the effect of working as a team (even if not formal teams like road cycling) on the bike segment. But if the strongest athletes win in both types of events, then is drafting not providing any benefit? Or perhaps, the pros have found that a strong run can win in both events… David (still anti-drafting, but confused)
I agree wholeheartedly with most of what Karen Smyers said about St Anthony’s, but one glaring thing still bothers the heck out of me. If the pro’s really want to take a stand, why do they insist that they must have a draft-legal qualifier for World’s??? Suck it up, stick up for your principles, and have a quality draft-free race. Then the qualifiers can go train like heck the rest of the summer to get ready for a draft-legal race. Go race some crit’s to get the bike handling and tactical experience. Go to all the ITU races you want, and I for one would be willing to support their effort to ensure not only that they meet the ITU’s ridiculous qualifying standards and gain experience in a draft-legal format. Just get these races out of the US and don’t ask us to fork over money to put on such a race. It’s just the beginning of a long slide down that slope towards giving in entirely. If you don’t have the guts to do it (qualify at a draft-free race), then you don’t belong on a team representing the US. Marty — Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://w3.one.net/~triweb
Karen, If the majority of Triathletes boycott all races that support drafting, drafting will not exist. All governing bodies will eventually reconsider. They will have to in order to achieve olympic status. If a draft-legal triathlon is presented in 2000, things will never change. Don’t fool yourself. The longer we wait, the more likely draft-legal triathlon will survive. Swim/run duathlons with a transitional bike ride is not a triathlon. PERIOD! With much respect, Gregg
1. A clear majority of the pros, whom we were elected to represent, requested a draft-legal qualifier in order to field the best team possible for the Draftathlon World Champs.
As this seems to be the central argument for making Saint Anthony’s draft-legal, allow me to refute it. Argument: a draft-legal race will select "the best team possible" Reality: a traditional triathlon is more demanding. A stronger athlete (i.e. Michellie Jones, Spencer Smith, Simon Lessing, etc.) will do well in draft-free AND draft-legal events. Pick the strongest ones in a draft-free race, and they will shine in the easier draft-legal format. It’s worked for Lessing and Smyers. Too bad she has done an about-face. Bravo to Jones and Smith for standing firm. Cesar Valverde
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please Don t Boycott St. Anthony s A boycott of St.Anthony s will be striking out at the wrong target. The ITU would love to see a race like St. Anthony s go under because of internal US bickering. Remember, we should be fighting the ITU s policies, not St. Anthony s or USA Triathlon s. St. Anthony s is one of the best races we have here in the US. It has always been a favorite among pros and age groupers alike. It has a reputation for enforcing the drafting rules. They have actually been approached by the ITU to be a World Cup in the past and they have turned them down. They are also an IQ race, which means they are affiliated with possibly our best weapon against the ITU: the Hawaiian Ironman (because it is the most prestigious and wealthiest, is spectator-friendly, has the highest TV-ratings, and is NON-DRAFTING). USPTDC, the subcommittee of USA Triathlon that is made up of pro athletes, asked St. Anthony s to hold a draft-legal race, for this year only, so we could use it as our qualifier for the draft-legal World Championships. I would like to clear up some of the controversy that is floating about regarding this difficult decision and the factors that led us to it. 1. A clear majority of the pros, whom we were elected to represent, requested a draft-legal qualifier in order to field the best team possible for the Draftathlon World Champs. 2. As a clear majority of the pros still favor non-drafting triathlons, we will hold our US Pro Championships separately at the non-drafting format (at Schu s International). The male and female Pro Champion will automatically qualify for the US Team as long as he/she has qualified via the ITU criteria. 3. The ITU criteria, i.e. the hoops we must jump through to compete at the World Champs, are: -be ranked in the top 50 on the ITU circuit -place top 3 at regional champs (there is as yet no North American race designated) -be given a wild card slot (no criteria stated for how one earns one of these) Therefore, to ensure we have a team at the Worlds, each team member must compete at several World Cup races to get a ranking. By choosing our team early, we can concentrate our travel funds on sending the team members to the World Cup races. 4. There is currently not a single ITU race being held in the U.S. or Canada. We do not think it is fair to require everyone who wants to make the team to travel at big expense to a qualifier. Also, there are now restrictions on who can enter the World Cup races and we need our qualifier to be open to all US pros. 5. We considered putting on our own race qualifier, but we lack the funds and the time to find sponsors. (Our pro group is currently self-funded by our own professional dues, sanction fees from our championships, and sponsors for our team uniforms.) In the future, this will probably be the route we will take. 6. As an Olympic sport, USA Triathlon is now eligible for funding from the USOC. This funding comes in many different forms but some of it is via grants that are awarded based on our achieving performance markers which include top placings at World Champs. The entire sport in our country benefits from these grants as there is now money for junior development, coaching certification, marketing and P.R., and training of officials (i.e. drafting enforcement!). However, we must remain part of the ITU to receive this funding. 7. USA Triathlon will continue to press for change within the ITU, but it was clear from last year s attempted coup (Steve Locke for president) that we do not have the support of other countries governing bodies on the drafting issue and the dictatorship issue. The US is one of the only countries where the athletes have the power to make some of the decisions about the sport. We need to encourage foreign athletes that feel as we do to run for their board and get involved in the decision-making process. 8. Boycotting the St. Anthony s race may make yoaol://5863:126/rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions does not support drafting but they agree that we need to select the team most likely to succeed at Worlds, given the format. It is a credit to our country that we DON T have a single draft-legal race that we could use as a qualifier, so we had to ask for a special dispensation. 9. I would hope that anyone that feels a boycott is neccessary also boycotted the last two World Champs and will boycott the one coming up. The American contingent was by far the largest in the last two World s, and I know that the majority of these people do not favor drafting. I personally decided that not going to the World Champs would hurt me, our cause, and the US s funding from the USOC and actually help the ITU because they would claim that anyone that didn t go stayed away because they couldn t win. It was a dream come true to win in Cancun because it gave me the perfect position from which to continue to argue against the policy. Unfortunately, the ITU has become too strong for any one athlete or one governing body to argue against. I would rather see every person that is opposed to the drafting GO to the World s and line the race course holding signs that denounce drafting and the ITU s policies. Please don t hurt one of the few remaining great races for pros and amateurs in the US. Karen Smyers, USPTDC Board Member
Karen, If the majority of Triathletes boycott all races that support drafting, drafting will not exist. All governing bodies will eventually reconsider. They will have to in order to achieve olympic status. If a draft-legal triathlon is presented in 2000, things will never change. Don’t fool yourself. The longer we wait, the more likely draft-legal triathlon will survive. Swim/run duathlons with a transitional bike ride is not a triathlon. PERIOD! With much respect, Gregg
Sorry but the USAT is not doing anything for the age groupers. I was hurt deeply by the drafting new, this is my home town race and in order for USAT to hear me and my other competitors we must stick together and boycott one of the best races in Florida if not in the US. We are not being heard!!!!! Carol Kinney – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please Don t Boycott St. Anthony s A boycott of St.Anthony s will be striking out at the wrong target. The ITU would love to see a race like St. Anthony s go under because of internal US bickering. Remember, we should be fighting the ITU s policies, not St. Anthony s or USA Triathlon s. St. Anthony s is one of the best races we have here in the US. It has always been a favorite among pros and age groupers alike. It has a reputation for enforcing the drafting rules. They have actually been approached by the ITU to be a World Cup in the past and they have turned them down. They are also an IQ race, which means they are affiliated with possibly our best weapon against the ITU: the Hawaiian Ironman (because it is the most prestigious and wealthiest, is spectator-friendly, has the highest TV-ratings, and is NON-DRAFTING). USPTDC, the subcommittee of USA Triathlon that is made up of pro athletes, asked St. Anthony s to hold a draft-legal race, for this year only, so we could use it as our qualifier for the draft-legal World Championships. I would like to clear up some of the controversy that is floating about regarding this difficult decision and the factors that led us to it. 1. A clear majority of the pros, whom we were elected to represent, requested a draft-legal qualifier in order to field the best team possible for the Draftathlon World Champs. 2. As a clear majority of the pros still favor non-drafting triathlons, we will hold our US Pro Championships separately at the non-drafting format (at Schu s International). The male and female Pro Champion will automatically qualify for the US Team as long as he/she has qualified via the ITU criteria. 3. The ITU criteria, i.e. the hoops we must jump through to compete at the World Champs, are: -be ranked in the top 50 on the ITU circuit -place top 3 at regional champs (there is as yet no North American race designated) -be given a wild card slot (no criteria stated for how one earns one of these) Therefore, to ensure we have a team at the Worlds, each team member must compete at several World Cup races to get a ranking. By choosing our team early, we can concentrate our travel funds on sending the team members to the World Cup races. 4. There is currently not a single ITU race being held in the U.S. or Canada. We do not think it is fair to require everyone who wants to make the team to travel at big expense to a qualifier. Also, there are now restrictions on who can enter the World Cup races and we need our qualifier to be open to all US pros. 5. We considered putting on our own race qualifier, but we lack the funds and the time to find sponsors. (Our pro group is currently self-funded by our own professional dues, sanction fees from our championships, and sponsors for our team uniforms.) In the future, this will probably be the route we will take. 6. As an Olympic sport, USA Triathlon is now eligible for funding from the USOC. This funding comes in many different forms but some of it is via grants that are awarded based on our achieving performance markers which include top placings at World Champs. The entire sport in our country benefits from these grants as there is now money for junior development, coaching certification, marketing and P.R., and training of officials (i.e. drafting enforcement!). However, we must remain part of the ITU to receive this funding. 7. USA Triathlon will continue to press for change within the ITU, but it was clear from last year s attempted coup (Steve Locke for president) that we do not have the support of other countries governing bodies on the drafting issue and the dictatorship issue. The US is one of the only countries where the athletes have the power to make some of the decisions about the sport. We need to encourage foreign athletes that feel as we do to run for their board and get involved in the decision-making process. 8. Boycotting the St. Anthony s race may make yoaol://5863:126/rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions does not support drafting but they agree that we need to select the team most likely to succeed at Worlds, given the format. It is a credit to our country that we DON T have a single draft-legal race that we could use as a qualifier, so we had to ask for a special dispensation. 9. I would hope that anyone that feels a boycott is neccessary also boycotted the last two World Champs and will boycott the one coming up. The American contingent was by far the largest in the last two World s, and I know that the majority of these people do not favor drafting. I personally decided that not going to the World Champs would hurt me, our cause, and the US s funding from the USOC and actually help the ITU because they would claim that anyone that didn t go stayed away because they couldn t win. It was a dream come true to win in Cancun because it gave me the perfect position from which to continue to argue against the policy. Unfortunately, the ITU has become too strong for any one athlete or one governing body to argue against. I would rather see every person that is opposed to the drafting GO to the World s and line the race course holding signs that denounce drafting and the ITU s policies. Please don t hurt one of the few remaining great races for pros and amateurs in the US. Karen Smyers, USPTDC Board Member
Please Don t Boycott St. Anthony s A boycott of St.Anthony s will be striking out at the wrong target. The ITU would love to see a race like St. Anthony s go under because of internal US bickering. Remember, we should be fighting the ITU s policies, not St. Anthony s or USA Triathlon s. St. Anthony s is one of the best races we have here in the US. It has always been a favorite among pros and age groupers alike. It has a reputation for enforcing the drafting rules. They have actually been approached by the ITU to be a World Cup in the past and they have turned them down. They are also an IQ race, which means they are affiliated with possibly our best weapon against the ITU: the Hawaiian Ironman (because it is the most prestigious and wealthiest, is spectator-friendly, has the highest TV-ratings, and is NON-DRAFTING). USPTDC, the subcommittee of USA Triathlon that is made up of pro athletes, asked St. Anthony s to hold a draft-legal race, for this year only, so we could use it as our qualifier for the draft-legal World Championships. I would like to clear up some of the controversy that is floating about regarding this difficult decision and the factors that led us to it. 1. A clear majority of the pros, whom we were elected to represent, requested a draft-legal qualifier in order to field the best team possible for the Draftathlon World Champs. 2. As a clear majority of the pros still favor non-drafting triathlons, we will hold our US Pro Championships separately at the non-drafting format (at Schu s International). The male and female Pro Champion will automatically qualify for the US Team as long as he/she has qualified via the ITU criteria. 3. The ITU criteria, i.e. the hoops we must jump through to compete at the World Champs, are: -be ranked in the top 50 on the ITU circuit -place top 3 at regional champs (there is as yet no North American race designated) -be given a wild card slot (no criteria stated for how one earns one of these) Therefore, to ensure we have a team at the Worlds, each team member must compete at several World Cup races to get a ranking. By choosing our team early, we can concentrate our travel funds on sending the team members to the World Cup races. 4. There is currently not a single ITU race being held in the U.S. or Canada. We do not think it is fair to require everyone who wants to make the team to travel at big expense to a qualifier. Also, there are now restrictions on who can enter the World Cup races and we need our qualifier to be open to all US pros. 5. We considered putting on our own race qualifier, but we lack the funds and the time to find sponsors. (Our pro group is currently self-funded by our own professional dues, sanction fees from our championships, and sponsors for our team uniforms.) In the future, this will probably be the route we will take. 6. As an Olympic sport, USA Triathlon is now eligible for funding from the USOC. This funding comes in many different forms but some of it is via grants that are awarded based on our achieving performance markers which include top placings at World Champs. The entire sport in our country benefits from these grants as there is now money for junior development, coaching certification, marketing and P.R., and training of officials (i.e. drafting enforcement!). However, we must remain part of the ITU to receive this funding. 7. USA Triathlon will continue to press for change within the ITU, but it was clear from last year s attempted coup (Steve Locke for president) that we do not have the support of other countries governing bodies on the drafting issue and the dictatorship issue. The US is one of the only countries where the athletes have the power to make some of the decisions about the sport. We need to encourage foreign athletes that feel as we do to run for their board and get involved in the decision-making process. 8. Boycotting the St. Anthony s race may make yoaol://5863:126/rec.games.trading-cards.marketplace.magic.auctions does not support drafting but they agree that we need to select the team most likely to succeed at Worlds, given the format. It is a credit to our country that we DON T have a single draft-legal race that we could use as a qualifier, so we had to ask for a special dispensation. 9. I would hope that anyone that feels a boycott is neccessary also boycotted the last two World Champs and will boycott the one coming up. The American contingent was by far the largest in the last two World s, and I know that the majority of these people do not favor drafting. I personally decided that not going to the World Champs would hurt me, our cause, and the US s funding from the USOC and actually help the ITU because they would claim that anyone that didn t go stayed away because they couldn t win. It was a dream come true to win in Cancun because it gave me the perfect position from which to continue to argue against the policy. Unfortunately, the ITU has become too strong for any one athlete or one governing body to argue against. I would rather see every person that is opposed to the drafting GO to the World s and line the race course holding signs that denounce drafting and the ITU s policies. Please don t hurt one of the few remaining great races for pros and amateurs in the US. Karen Smyers, USPTDC Board Member
Snip, snip I had a wetsuit, I would have worn it. name and abode to add to the feeling of accomplishment as I strutted past the finish line 66th out of 167.
Congrats! And welcome to the club wacko! Anders
I was shivering without a wetsuit in brown water waiting for some sort of sound to indicate the start of the swim. My feet were sinking in the mud as I let my eyes wander around my water companions. I wasn
: Mar. 22, 23, 24 : : 3 Full Days of Off Road.. Rock ‘n Roll! : Y’all probably don’t want a piece of this! : : If you don’t do it, don’t talk about it, : Shut – UP Sitdown, bend-over and kiss it all GoodBy!!!! : THIS IS REAL 4Wheelin !!! : : Coverage By America’s 4X4 4U Video Magazine : ….Live UpLink to the WebSite…. Wish I was going to be able to get there. Oh well, there’s plenty-o-off roading on the left coast. Will check out the UpLink though!
Mar. 22, 23, 24 3 Full Days of Off Road.. Rock ‘n Roll! Y’all probably don’t want a piece of this! If you don’t do it, don’t talk about it, Shut – UP Sitdown, bend-over and kiss it all GoodBy!!!! THIS IS REAL 4Wheelin !!! Coverage By America’s 4X4 4U Video Magazine ….Live UpLink to the WebSite…. For More info: Bob Hazel or
I use a Zipp 440 on the front and the only concerns I’ve had about it are braking and stability in cross-winds.
I have 440s on front and rear. Love the wheels! I can certainly feel the cross winds on the front, but all that is needed is to be a bit less relaxed with the aero bars. Breaking is noisy, and I have found that I have a tendancy to lock the back wheel easily (Shimano Ultegra brake pads). They also really wear down the pads. Haven’t been caught in the rain with them yet, so I can’t comment on how they perform under wet conditions. Another thing I really like is that they are quiet. No more wind noise than my regular wheels. Plus they attract a lot of attention while sitting at the coffee shop . kbb Kim B. Blair, Ph.D. Senior Staff Scientist 1033 Massachusetts Ave (617) 354-3124 Cambridge, MA 02138 (617) 491-4522 (fax)
For time trials? Specialized tri-spokes and/or rear disk will be very hard to beat. I road race and ride crits on normal spokes wheels (when very hilly) or Campy Shamals when flatter. I love my Shamals – very, very strong. Easy to keep trued up (with Snap-on deep well 5.5 mm socket) and fairly light (install SRP Ti axles and cogset for killer set). For TT’s though the tri-spokes are hard to beat. Rockford, IL
Also looking for aero wheelset. Am leaning toward one of the Campy deep-dish models, probably Vento. As best I can determine, Shamal technology trickles down the product line, with the lower prices of Vento being primarily related to the relative quality of the hubs used. Vento uses 28 (?) spokes on the front, with Athena hubs. There’s a slightly less costly model that uses Veloce hubs. Check out Triathlete Magazine of about 2 months ago for a thorough wind tunnel run down. You’re on the right track though, as deep-dish technology seems fastest.
I am currently thinking of buying an aero front wheel. I already have a Zipp 440 on the back and am satisfied with it, however, there are some lighter or cheaper aero wheels available. Do any r.s.t.`ers have experience of any of the following; Zipp 440 front Campag Shamal (this seems relatively cheap and light but how good is the quality?) Hed Campag Vento Campag Bora FIR deep rim if so, I would be keen to hear your experiences of them. I want a deep rim, not a tri spoke. Lorna.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am currently thinking of buying an aero front wheel. I already have a Zipp 440 on the back and am satisfied with it, however, there are some lighter or cheaper aero wheels available. Do any r.s.t.`ers have experience of any of the following; Zipp 440 front Campag Shamal (this seems relatively cheap and light but how good is the quality?) Hed Campag Vento Campag Bora FIR deep rim if so, I would be keen to hear your experiences of them. I want a deep rim, not a tri spoke. Lorna.
Lorna– I’m in the same position right now, looking to start upgrading my wheels and wondering what to buy. I’ve asked around a bit, and I’m really leaning toward the Shamals. A number of knowledgable folks have told me that it’s by far the "best bang for your buck". And you can never go wrong quality-wise with Campy, that’s for sure. A good friend who’s a bike shop manager has offered to lend me his Shamals for my next race (Vineman International, June 11), so I can give more of an opinion after that. I’d be very interested to hear what other netters have to say. I was wondering about the Mavic Cosmics, but they’re both heavier and more expensive than the Shamals. Just a semi-informed $.02….. Tricia — "’Be a terrific innovation if you could get your mind to stretch a little further than the next wise crack." "Y’know, I tried that once, but it didn’t snap back into place." —Katharine Hepburn & Eve Arden in "Stage Door" (1937)
I am currently thinking of buying an aero front wheel. I already have
a Zipp 440 on the back and am satisfied with it, however, there are some lighter or cheaper aero wheels available. Do any r.s.t.`ers have experience of any of the following; Zipp 440 front Campag Shamal (this seems relatively cheap and light but how good is the quality?) Hed Campag Vento Campag Bora FIR deep rim if so, I would be keen to hear your experiences of them. I want a deep rim, not a tri spoke. Lorna.<<< I just bought a set of Zipps (440 front, disk rear), and am quite pleased with them. When shopping around, I found all of the aero data on various wheel designs to be pretty confusing, and often somewhat suspicious. In the end I decided to go with the Zipps because they were recommended as being the most durable and reliable of the various fast wheels available. If you’re going to sink some money in your wheels, then you really want something that is well made and will not crack, break, or go out of true. People I talked to all said that the Zipps fit this description. Also, don’t forget to get high quality hubs. Steve Irish
I use a Zipp 440 on the front and the only concerns I’ve had about it are braking and stability in cross-winds. As for the braking, it brakes Ok, but it is rather noisy. Also, high speed braking — down a steep hill — is very noisy and I wonder just how good it would be in an emergency situation. Have no experience with braking in the rain. In strong crosswinds you do need to take some extra care. Steering is noticeably "squirrely."
| I am currently thinking of buying an aero front wheel. I already have | a Zipp 440 on the back and am satisfied with it, however, there are | some lighter or cheaper aero wheels available. | Do any r.s.t.`ers have experience of any of the following; | Zipp 440 front | Campag Shamal (this seems relatively cheap and light but how good is the | quality?) | Hed | Campag Vento | Campag Bora | FIR deep rim | if so, I would be keen to hear your experiences of them. I want a deep rim, | not a tri spoke. | | Lorna.
Has anyone worn a heart rate monitor during a marathon to monitor pace? If so, did it help, or would you recommend relying on "instinct" instead?
I used one during Grandma’s Marathon in Duluth MN on June 19 and found it very helpfull. I usually go out too fast and suffer later. It still is a bit of a problem as it takes awhile for the heart rate to reach the the value that you will want to run at, but I think after a few trials you can determine good values for the first mile or so of the race. Despite the temptation to ignore the monitor because I felt so "good", I was able to run with negative splits – second half about one minute faster than the first half. At age 62 I needed an average heart rate of about 138 to finish in 3:12, but I think everyone would have to use a marathon to calibrate the monitor for his own heart characteristics. I have never felt better after a marathon than I did at this race, so i’ll continue to use the monitor. I use it in shorter races also. Greg Prom Honeywell Systems & Research Center Tel. (612) 951-7358 MN65-2500 Fax (612) 951-7438 3660 Technology Drive — Greg Prom Honeywell Systems & Research Center Tel. (612) 951-7358 MN65-2500 Fax (612) 951-7438 3660 Technology Drive
Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon,rec.running
Has anyone worn a heart rate monitor during a marathon to monitor pace? If so, did it help, or would you recommend relying on "instinct" instead?
Newsgroups: rec.sport.triathlon,rec.running Has anyone worn a heart rate monitor during a marathon to monitor pace? If so, did it help, or would you recommend relying on "instinct" instead?
Yeah, I friend of mine uses his HR moniter all the time to race 1/2 marathons and above. In his last two marathons he set his moniter to `beap’ if he went above or below 5% of his threshold level. On both occasions he has run well (2.30 and 2.33) and was able to negative split the latter race. He finds the benefit is that it keeps him from going too fast early. Relying on instinct may not be `as good’ as I think most folk tend to go too fast early in a marathon. In Peter Coe and David Martin’s `Training Distance Runners’ (A supurb book for anybody interested in training and physiology for elite performances), they say, any deviation of 2% from `ideal pace (i.e. just under threshold) will result in a slowing down toward the end of the marathon. Just my 0.02 worth. Tim
A couple questions for the net: - do many of you triathletes/runners get massages done and if so why, what the benefits/hazards, etc - if massages are good, when are they most effective - during peak training - at taper - after a hard race - etc — Brendan R. Leitch Bell Northern Research Ltd. DMS Supernode Distributed Operating Systems (The Big Nerd Ranch) Voice: (613) 763-9425 FAX: (613) 763-8864 ESN: 393-9425 ESN: 393-8864 Surface Mail: MS 145, P.O. BOX 3511, Station C, Ottawa, Canada, K1Y 4H7