Question:

For me the planned progression will be to add a 4th day very gently, perhaps only a mile or two at the start, then eventually adjust the individual workouts so that one is noticeably longer, but even then it will be tough.  I just did some math:  I now typically run one each 5, 6, and 7 miles per week; that’s 18 total.  Even if I add a fourth day and put in 3 or 4 miles on that day, my 7 mile longest run is still about right.  I may elect to do a longer run perhaps once a month still and see how that goes. You get an A.

Thank you – I was pretty good at math in elementary school and, for some reason (probably lack of interest) got worse at it as the rest of my public school education progressed. Unless the three days are consecutive and then only a B.

Still an A.  The running schedule here since the Fall has been Tuesday, Thursday, and one day on the weekend.  I try to vary that when I take a recovery week. 0 5 0 6 0 7 0… 2 5 0 6 0 7 0… 2 5 0 6 0 9 0 … 2 6 0 6 0 10 0 and band play on.

I try not to be religious about the order of them.  Here’s what I’ve done since 01.01.2002. Tu/Th/Sa: 4, 7, 5 Tu/Th/Sa: 0, 8, 5 Tu/Th/Sa: 5, 5, 5 Tu/Th/Su: 8, 4, 5 Tu/Th/Sa: 6, 8, 5 We/Fr/Su: 7, 5, 0 Tu/Th   : 6, 8 The weekends usually find me taking a bike ride and doing family stuff so I try to fit the longer runs in during the week.  I may try both days this weekend as the first 4-fer. Steve "rambling but, hey, it’s Friday night" Freides

Response:

For me the planned progression will be to add a 4th day very gently, perhaps only a mile or two at the start, then eventually adjust the individual workouts so that one is noticeably longer, but even then it will be tough.  I just did some math:  I now typically run one each 5, 6, and 7 miles per week; that’s 18 total.  Even if I add a fourth day and put in 3 or 4 miles on that day, my 7 mile longest run is still about right.  I may elect to do a longer run perhaps once a month still and see how that goes.

You get an A. Unless the three days are consecutive and then only a B. 0 5 0 6 0 7 0… 2 5 0 6 0 7 0… 2 5 0 6 0 9 0 … 2 6 0 6 0 10 0 and band play on. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

Good for you. There’s a new duathalon here in April that I’ll try. It’s pretty short but should be fun. short for you… long for someone else maybe. it’s all relative. fun is good.

You’re very kind. I’m an event fiend – I love ‘em. They are still mainly training measures instead of races but the social aspects are a hoot. I’m planning on doing the duathalon and three sprint triathalons. My swimming is still pretty weak. Like you, I’m working on the crawl instead of my normal sidestroke to save the legs for biking and running. Next month, I’m scheduled to do a swim class for runners. It should be fun. funny, the sidestroke is currently my strongest stroke as well, and i only taught it to myself in the last couple of months, with no instruction. a swim class for runners – now that WOULD be fun. what a concept… meant for beginner triathletes?

I’m not sure that they’ll focus on triathalons. The young woman teaching it is a university student who said that she just loves getting runners in the pool instead of trying to run with them. Is that a compliment <G? I did have one guy come up after the latest 10-miler and say that he’s usually right behind me at the events. He said that his goal is to beat me at the next 5-miler in two weeks. Who knew? aha, the competitive urge appears…. you’ll have to keep an eye out for that guy and make sure he doesn’t beat you at the race  :)   could make you work a little harder with some friendly rivalry out there. best of luck in the race.

Yeah, he’s a youngster (40 or so) who’ll be up with the fast folks before long. Of course, if he wants to have a good time, he’ll stay back there with us. Thanks! Layne

Response:

I believe the common wisdom says do 1/3 of your weekly mileage as your long run and not more than that.  I think some beginning marathon programs take that up to 1/2 but, for me, that would be a formulae for injury.

yes, i believe when i was distance training, i was doing something like the 1/3 rule. This is where it gets hairy on running only three days a week – whatever the longest of those three days is _already_ breaks the 1/3 rule!  When my usual run was around 7k, I could throw in a 12k run once a month or so without having problems, but now that my runs are average more like 9-10k, I’ve given up on the ‘long’ run as a concept until I add another day.  I’m basically out there for some duration between 40 minutes and just over an hour 3x/week and that’s that.

hm, this is where i’ve got to set my priorities carefully. in May, i’d like to do a half marathon and then two weeks later, a very short sprint triathlon (my first ever). i keep wondering if i’m trying to bite off more than i can chew, but everyone i’ve asked feels this is completely do-able. but when i sit down to create a training schedule, i get befuddled. running is my forte, so should i really put in so many runs per week? i should concentrate more on swimming (for the tri) which is my weakest area, and i still need to squeeze in a couple of bike workouts too! maybe a 10K would be more realistic to train for than the HM – alongside tri training. i realize tri training is even more of a demand on my time, but i’m not as flexible on weekends. one day MUST be rest, and i think i can only manage one workout on the the other day. this is all up to me though… must consult more tri training programs to get ideas. For me the planned progression will be to add a 4th day very gently, perhaps only a mile or two at the start, then eventually adjust the individual workouts so that one is noticeably longer, but even then it will be tough.  I just did some math:  I now typically run one each 5, 6, and 7 miles per week; that’s 18 total.  Even if I add a fourth day and put in 3 or 4 miles on that day, my 7 mile longest run is still about right.  I may elect to do a longer run perhaps once a month still and see how that goes.

i’ll have to be careful of my percentages as well as i increase my frequency. thanks for the thoughts, Steve. Cam

Response:

Thanks, Layne. Yep, the knee seems fine now, and I believe that my slightly scaled-back running schedule is keeping me off the injury list. I’m feeling stronger overall due to my swimming, which I sure couldn’t say when I was doing just the running. And I think the extra upper body strength is helping with my posture/form when I run – which I think was   part of the original problem.

It sounds like a good plan to me. I’m coming around to the point that upper body work really does help (slow learner). As far as the tri goes: I’ve begun private swim classes to improve (learn) my front crawl… never did that stroke very well. I figure I’ll wait until the end of March, I’ll assess how far I’ve come in front crawl, and that will determine if I’ll sign up for the May tri. If I feel I’ll need more time to work on the swim side of it, then I’ll aim for a later race.

Good for you. There’s a new duathalon here in April that I’ll try. It’s pretty short but should be fun. How are things with you? Doing training of any particular kind? Any goal races lined up for the spring, summer, and fall?

I’m an event fiend – I love ‘em. They are still mainly training measures instead of races but the social aspects are a hoot. I’m planning on doing the duathalon and three sprint triathalons. My swimming is still pretty weak. Like you, I’m working on the crawl instead of my normal sidestroke to save the legs for biking and running. Next month, I’m scheduled to do a swim class for runners. It should be fun. I did have one guy come up after the latest 10-miler and say that he’s usually right behind me at the events. He said that his goal is to beat me at the next 5-miler in two weeks. Who knew? Layne

Response:

ah, another thing: i hope to run a half marathon in mid-May… could i conceivably train well and run well in this race with just three run workouts per week?

I can tell you that it works for me. After many injuries I eventually figured out that running every other day is my maximum frequency. So I do the best that can with that. I exercise in other ways on the other days of the week — mostly easy biking plus some weight training. I was able to race a half marathon in 82′ with a regimen of three runs per week. So, it works for me, YMMV. — Peter James Ontario Canada

Response:

It sounds like a good plan to me. I’m coming around to the point that upper body work really does help (slow learner).

yeah, and i’ve been guilty of not even touching the dumbells lying around my place for YEARS. i *could* improve my upper body strength even more, but i just don’t feel like that kind of exercise any more. but maybe i’ll just do a short set hitting large muscle groups a couple of times per week, then scale back to once a week after i’ve seen some development. or not. Good for you. There’s a new duathalon here in April that I’ll try. It’s pretty short but should be fun.

short for you… long for someone else maybe. it’s all relative. fun is good. I’m an event fiend – I love ‘em. They are still mainly training measures instead of races but the social aspects are a hoot. I’m planning on doing the duathalon and three sprint triathalons. My swimming is still pretty weak. Like you, I’m working on the crawl instead of my normal sidestroke to save the legs for biking and running. Next month, I’m scheduled to do a swim class for runners. It should be fun.

funny, the sidestroke is currently my strongest stroke as well, and i only taught it to myself in the last couple of months, with no instruction. a swim class for runners – now that WOULD be fun. what a concept… meant for beginner triathletes? I did have one guy come up after the latest 10-miler and say that he’s usually right behind me at the events. He said that his goal is to beat me at the next 5-miler in two weeks. Who knew?

aha, the competitive urge appears…. you’ll have to keep an eye out for that guy and make sure he doesn’t beat you at the race  :)   could make you work a little harder with some friendly rivalry out there. best of luck in the race. Cam

Response:

I believe the common wisdom says do 1/3 of your weekly mileage as your long run and not more than that.  I think some beginning marathon programs take that up to 1/2 but, for me, that would be a formulae for injury. This is where it gets hairy on running only three days a week – whatever the longest of those three days is _already_ breaks the 1/3 rule!  When my usual run was around 7k, I could throw in a 12k run once a month or so without having problems, but now that my runs are average more like 9-10k, I’ve given up on the ‘long’ run as a concept until I add another day.  I’m basically out there for some duration between 40 minutes and just over an hour 3x/week and that’s that. For me the planned progression will be to add a 4th day very gently, perhaps only a mile or two at the start, then eventually adjust the individual workouts so that one is noticeably longer, but even then it will be tough.  I just did some math:  I now typically run one each 5, 6, and 7 miles per week; that’s 18 total.  Even if I add a fourth day and put in 3 or 4 miles on that day, my 7 mile longest run is still about right.  I may elect to do a longer run perhaps once a month still and see how that goes. Like the man asked Dan Rather, "What’s the Frequency???" -S- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, I’m glad you brought this up. I do know of this training key… I’ve read it (and followed it) in the past when i did long runs in training for long races, but it’s been so long now that I don’t recall the magic number. What percentage of the total mileage for the week should a long run be? I’ll try to dig up that info again, but if you or anyone else has it handy in their brain, by all means, let it be known. Thanks very much… I’ll have to seriously consider how or if I can train for two quite different types of races. Cam — -snip- the run felt fantastic All sounds good to me! ah, another thing: i hope to run a half marathon in mid-May… could i conceivably train well and run well in this race with just three run workouts per week? last winter i did running only and put in 5 days a week training, with long runs, hills, tempo, intervals, and an easy day. that work gave me an excellent race result. i’m a bit concerned that 3 workouts, or even 4 if i up it, will not be enough to run the half well. any opinions on that? i mean, i’d get in my long run, but what to do with the other two run days – a speed workout and a hill workout? and just treat my swim days as the easy run days (which i would not do now)? As to doing a half on three days/week of running, the answer is "sure, you can" but with a proviso.  I’m someone who’s tried to cheat my running days/week over the last few years and I’ve run into a peculiar phenomena – once my weekly total hits a certain point, I can’t get the long runs any long until I add another day/week.  I mean, I _can_ make the long runs longer but all it does it get me overtrained, injured, or both.  It seems there’s a maximum percentage my long run can represent of my total weekly running mileage, and that doesn’t seem directly related to my total aerobic activity, and it does seem directly related to my running.  (Poorly said but I hope you get the idea.) Perhaps with a few more years in the bank now than the last time I tried it the plan might work better, but I’d keep an eye out for this kind of thing happening to you.  Right now I’m doing 3 runs/week, all in the 4.5-7.5 mile (7-12k) range.  I don’t know that I’m going to attempt much more total weekly mileage without adding another day. Just one runner’s thoughts, take ‘em for what they’re worth…. -=S=-

Response:

This is great stuff, Cam. It looks like you’ve really whipped the earlier injuries and are going great guns for the tri. Way to go. Layne

Response:

This is great stuff, Cam. It looks like you’ve really whipped the earlier injuries and are going great guns for the tri. Way to go. Layne

Thanks, Layne. Yep, the knee seems fine now, and I believe that my slightly scaled-back running schedule is keeping me off the injury list. I’m feeling stronger overall due to my swimming, which I sure couldn’t say when I was doing just the running. And I think the extra upper body strength is helping with my posture/form when I run – which I think was   part of the original problem. As far as the tri goes: I’ve begun private swim classes to improve (learn) my front crawl… never did that stroke very well. I figure I’ll wait until the end of March, I’ll assess how far I’ve come in front crawl, and that will determine if I’ll sign up for the May tri. If I feel I’ll need more time to work on the swim side of it, then I’ll aim for a later race. How are things with you? Doing training of any particular kind? Any goal races lined up for the spring, summer, and fall? Cam

Response:

Steve, I’m glad you brought this up. I do know of this training key… I’ve read it (and followed it) in the past when i did long runs in training for long races, but it’s been so long now that I don’t recall the magic number. What percentage of the total mileage for the week should a long run be? I’ll try to dig up that info again, but if you or anyone else has it handy in their brain, by all means, let it be known. Thanks very much… I’ll have to seriously consider how or if I can train for two quite different types of races. Cam — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -snip- the run felt fantastic All sounds good to me! ah, another thing: i hope to run a half marathon in mid-May… could i conceivably train well and run well in this race with just three run workouts per week? last winter i did running only and put in 5 days a week training, with long runs, hills, tempo, intervals, and an easy day. that work gave me an excellent race result. i’m a bit concerned that 3 workouts, or even 4 if i up it, will not be enough to run the half well. any opinions on that? i mean, i’d get in my long run, but what to do with the other two run days – a speed workout and a hill workout? and just treat my swim days as the easy run days (which i would not do now)? As to doing a half on three days/week of running, the answer is "sure, you can" but with a proviso.  I’m someone who’s tried to cheat my running days/week over the last few years and I’ve run into a peculiar phenomena – once my weekly total hits a certain point, I can’t get the long runs any long until I add another day/week.  I mean, I _can_ make the long runs longer but all it does it get me overtrained, injured, or both.  It seems there’s a maximum percentage my long run can represent of my total weekly running mileage, and that doesn’t seem directly related to my total aerobic activity, and it does seem directly related to my running.  (Poorly said but I hope you get the idea.) Perhaps with a few more years in the bank now than the last time I tried it the plan might work better, but I’d keep an eye out for this kind of thing happening to you.  Right now I’m doing 3 runs/week, all in the 4.5-7.5 mile (7-12k) range.  I don’t know that I’m going to attempt much more total weekly mileage without adding another day. Just one runner’s thoughts, take ‘em for what they’re worth…. -=S=-

Response:

-snip- the run felt fantastic

All sounds good to me! ah, another thing: i hope to run a half marathon in mid-May… could i conceivably train well and run well in this race with just three run workouts per week? last winter i did running only and put in 5 days a week training, with long runs, hills, tempo, intervals, and an easy day. that work gave me an excellent race result. i’m a bit concerned that 3 workouts, or even 4 if i up it, will not be enough to run the half well. any opinions on that? i mean, i’d get in my long run, but what to do with the other two run days – a speed workout and a hill workout? and just treat my swim days as the easy run days (which i would not do now)?

As to doing a half on three days/week of running, the answer is "sure, you can" but with a proviso.  I’m someone who’s tried to cheat my running days/week over the last few years and I’ve run into a peculiar phenomena – once my weekly total hits a certain point, I can’t get the long runs any long until I add another day/week.  I mean, I _can_ make the long runs longer but all it does it get me overtrained, injured, or both.  It seems there’s a maximum percentage my long run can represent of my total weekly running mileage, and that doesn’t seem directly related to my total aerobic activity, and it does seem directly related to my running.  (Poorly said but I hope you get the idea.) Perhaps with a few more years in the bank now than the last time I tried it the plan might work better, but I’d keep an eye out for this kind of thing happening to you.  Right now I’m doing 3 runs/week, all in the 4.5-7.5 mile (7-12k) range.  I don’t know that I’m going to attempt much more total weekly mileage without adding another day. Just one runner’s thoughts, take ‘em for what they’re worth…. -=S=-

Response:

my training schedule lately has looked something like this: M-run T-run W-swim T-run F-swim S-swim S-rest this is in preparation for the *real* triathlon training… coming soon. that’s when i’ll add some cycling, and will do two workouts for two days of the week (run and cycle, to get used to the transition). today the weather was so sunny and beautiful out, and not all that cold at -8 degrees celcius, that i decided to add a fourth run to my week. i can’t always squeeze in a Saturday run, but it worked out today. i did about 40 minutes, with a fartlek session in there. strangely, i found that i had incredible stamina on the fast bits. the roads were bare so i went full tilt at times… no worries of hitting ice and smashing myself up. i’m not sure where this new-found staying power came from… i haven’t done any special workouts at all since i eased back into running after my knee-related layoff. i don’t know if my swimming has anything to do with this… it’s possible, i guess. the run felt fantastic, nice cool air which felt good to breathe and it kept my body at a good temperature. ah, another thing: i hope to run a half marathon in mid-May… could i conceivably train well and run well in this race with just three run workouts per week? last winter i did running only and put in 5 days a week training, with long runs, hills, tempo, intervals, and an easy day. that work gave me an excellent race result. i’m a bit concerned that 3 workouts, or even 4 if i up it, will not be enough to run the half well. any opinions on that? i mean, i’d get in my long run, but what to do with the other two run days – a speed workout and a hill workout? and just treat my swim days as the easy run days (which i would not do now)? hmmmm….. Cam

Response:

Question:

Dr Stuttaford in The Times today commenting on Pres. Bush says that BPM below 60 resting should always be investigated as they are dangerous.  He says Bush has a heart problem, not that he is fit.

Impossible. Politicians have their heart removed before entering the practice. Tom

Response:

John, I really cannot be bothered to argue with you any more.

Why were you even _attempting_ to argue?  The situation is a matter of fact — you were wrong in posting to rbr.  I pointed that out and you continue an untenable position.  I cannot understand why. In the future, please "bother" to check what groups you post to to make sure your posts are on-topic. Thanks. JT — NB: reply-to address is munged Visit http://www.jt10000.com

Response:

when running, blood vessels dilate to accommodate the increased flow. after a run it takes them a while to snap back particularly in geezers who have less flexible vessel walls. dilated vessels + decreased flow = lower pressure the explainer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m a reasonably fit age group triathlete. My total weekly training includes approximately 3 km swimming, up to 150 km cycling and up to 20 km running. My daily job is quite sedate – office type work, but I train at least 6 days a week. I eat a healthy and varied diet and I think that generally I sleep/rest/recover enough. Most of my running is done early mornings, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. On those days especially, I have noticed that I sometimes feel a little dizzy when getting up after sitting at my desk for a while. This always passes quite quickly and presents no real problem at the moment. Also, I have measured my rest heart rate. This morning at work, after running a slow 8 km at 6 am, my heart rate was around 35 bpm. This appears to be quite low. Now my question: is there a link between this low heart rate and possibly low blood pressure? Am I correct in assuming that low blood pressure is a possible reason for the dizziness? Should I get a full medical check-up just in case? Thanks, Marcus

Response:

Perhaps we’re a bit more tolerant here. Jonathan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To be fair, it was cross posted to RST, RR, and RBR. Doesn’t make the responder any less of a jerk, though. The original post could be considered valid in all three forums. No it isn’t. I’m not familiar with the posting guidelines for rec.running and rec.sport.triathlon, but the post was off topic in rec.bikes.racing. Coming from someone not doing bike races, that is especially annoying. See the FAQ. JT — NB: reply-to address is munged Visit http://www.jt10000.com

Response:

8 km at 6 am, my heart rate was around 35 bpm. This appears to be quite low.

You’re complaining about a resting HR of 35?  Do you just WANT everyone here to hate you?

Response:

As for the person who described triathlon as a "gay" sport.

In the area of the US where I live the word ‘gay’ has taken on the meaning of ’stupid’ or similar. At least that’s how my kids (in high school) use it. the Explainer

Response:

As for the person who described triathlon as a "gay" sport. In the area of the US where I live the word ‘gay’ has taken on the meaning of ’stupid’ or similar. At least that’s how my kids (in high school) use it.

Well if using "gay" is popular with high school kids, then that explains why it is B.Turdina’s favorite word…. Cathy

Response:

In the area of the US where I live the word ‘gay’ has taken on the meaning of ’stupid’ or similar. At least that’s how my kids (in high school) use it. Well if using "gay" is popular with high school kids, then that explains why it is B.Turdina’s favorite word…. Cathy

POTM

Response:

Dr Stuttaford in The Times today commenting on Pres. Bush says that BPM below 60 resting should always be investigated as they are dangerous.  He says Bush has a heart problem, not that he is fit.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 8 km at 6 am, my heart rate was around 35 bpm. This appears to be quite low. You’re complaining about a resting HR of 35?  Do you just WANT everyone here to hate you?

Response:

Oh yeah, like no one ever gets off topic in rec.bicycles.racing Been there, seen it. But I know what you mean. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To be fair, it was cross posted to RST, RR, and RBR. Doesn’t make the responder any less of a jerk, though. The original post could be considered valid in all three forums. No it isn’t. I’m not familiar with the posting guidelines for rec.running and rec.sport.triathlon, but the post was off topic in rec.bikes.racing. Coming from someone not doing bike races, that is especially annoying. See the FAQ. JT — NB: reply-to address is munged Visit http://www.jt10000.com

Response:

Why? Or are you saying that because I’m a triathlete I don’t race bikes? And I said "especially" on  my running days, not exclusively, as I have noticed this dizziness issue after cycling as well, just not as pronounced as after running. Marcus – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To be fair, it was cross posted to RST, RR, and RBR. Doesn’t make the responder any less of a jerk, though. The original post could be considered valid in all three forums. No it isn’t. I’m not familiar with the posting guidelines for rec.running and rec.sport.triathlon, but the post was off topic in rec.bikes.racing. Coming from someone not doing bike races, that is especially annoying. See the FAQ. JT — NB: reply-to address is munged Visit http://www.jt10000.com

Response:

I’ve got a low resting heart rate and very often when I am sitting or doing somethng in a crouched or kneeling position I get so dizzy when I stand up that I almost fall over. This is particularly true if my eye had been looking down. This concerned me so much that I saw my doctor about it. In my case, the problem is just one of side effects of aging and its effect on the slowness of the inner ear balancing mechanism where it  tells the brain that it concurs with the brain that the body has in fact moved. I’ve got a two-fingered grip on the explanation. It seems the inner ear has a fluid filled chamber lined with cilia (small hairs if you will). When we move, the fluid flows by the cilia and they move. In an antenna like effect the cilia report to the brain just how much they move. The older we get, the difference between the amount of movement reported by the eyes and the amount of movement reported by the ear gets out of wack because of increasing mechanical slowness of the ear. The eyes generally remain fast. The effect of this, of course, may be different for each of us. Soooo…..,  if you can remember, and that gets harder as we age, raise your eyes and head  back to level BEFORE you attempt to stand. That also means don’t look at your feet as you go to get our of the chair. That’s harder on your weight transfer as you rock forward to rise but who said getting older is easy.

Response:

The point is your post if off-topic for r.b.r. Read the rec.bikes.* FAQ.  If you can’t even bother to do that, what basis do you have to even know whether your post is on or off-topic in r.b.r?   And if you’re too lazy to do so (which you seem to be), I’ll help you out:  It’s off-topic. Please remember that.

John, I really cannot be bothered to argue with you any more. I will therefore leave you alone in your lovely newsgroup to such varied and interesting threads as "Microwave a Twinkie", "Major XXXX shit" and "Football Deaths". Have a nice day. Marcus

Response:

Why? Or are you saying that because I’m a triathlete I don’t race bikes?

Triathlon is not bike racing.  It is triathlon.  Different sport. You’re a "reasonably fit age group triathlete"  not a bike racer.  But that’s not the point. The point is your post if off-topic for r.b.r. Read the rec.bikes.* FAQ.  If you can’t even bother to do that, what basis do you have to even know whether your post is on or off-topic in r.b.r?   And if you’re too lazy to do so (which you seem to be), I’ll help you out:  It’s off-topic. Please remember that. JT — NB: reply-to address is munged Visit http://www.jt10000.com

Response:

Whoa… I normally expect some nonsense when posting to newsgroups… But mate, you’ve done it! I’d be interested to know what sports YOU compete in….. And learn how to spell while you’re at it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You should get a check up.  While you’re at it, you should visit a shrink in order to determine why you’d feel the need to compete in a sport so gay as triathalon. I hope that you work things out. Hi, I’m a reasonably fit age group triathlete. My total weekly training includes approximately 3 km swimming, up to 150 km cycling and up to 20 km running. My daily job is quite sedate – office type work, but I train at least 6 days a week. I eat a healthy and varied diet and I think that generally I sleep/rest/recover enough. Most of my running is done early mornings, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. On those days especially, I have noticed that I sometimes feel a little dizzy when getting up after sitting at my desk for a while. This always passes quite quickly and presents no real problem at the moment. Also, I have measured my rest heart rate. This morning at work, after running a slow 8 km at 6 am, my heart rate was around 35 bpm. This appears to be quite low. Now my question: is there a link between this low heart rate and possibly low blood pressure? Am I correct in assuming that low blood pressure is a possible reason for the dizziness? Should I get a full medical check-up just in case? Thanks, Marcus

Response:

Well, the last replier should be somewhere else where they just sling insults at each other.

Nah, he should have added that maybe the doctor could tell what the original post has to do with bike racing. Nothing as far as I can see. JT — NB: reply-to address is munged Visit http://www.jt10000.com

Response:

Hi, I’m a reasonably fit age group triathlete. My total weekly training includes approximately 3 km swimming, up to 150 km cycling and up to 20 km running. My daily job is quite sedate – office type work, but I train at least 6 days a week. I eat a healthy and varied diet and I think that generally I sleep/rest/recover enough. Most of my running is done early mornings, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. On those days especially, I have noticed that I sometimes feel a little dizzy when getting up after sitting at my desk for a while. This always passes quite quickly and presents no real problem at the moment.

Typical in fit individuals, especially the newly-fit.   Sit down again, or bend over, for a second or two. It takes longer for a fit heart to compensate for the greater force needed to keep blood flowing to the brain in a standing position, until one’s feedback mechanisms adjust to do it faster.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You should get a check up.  While you’re at it, you should visit a shrink in order to determine why you’d feel the need to compete in a sport so gay as triathalon. I hope that you work things out. Hi, I’m a reasonably fit age group triathlete. My total weekly training includes approximately 3 km swimming, up to 150 km cycling and up to 20 km running. My daily job is quite sedate – office type work, but I train at least 6 days a week. I eat a healthy and varied diet and I think that generally I sleep/rest/recover enough. Most of my running is done early mornings, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. On those days especially, I have noticed that I sometimes feel a little dizzy when getting up after sitting at my desk for a while. This always passes quite quickly and presents no real problem at the moment. Also, I have measured my rest heart rate. This morning at work, after running a slow 8 km at 6 am, my heart rate was around 35 bpm. This appears to be quite low. Now my question: is there a link between this low heart rate and possibly low blood pressure? Am I correct in assuming that low blood pressure is a possible reason for the dizziness? Should I get a full medical check-up just in case? Thanks, Marcus

I’m guessing we’ve just heard from rec.bicycles.racing….

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, the last replier should be somewhere else where they just sling insults at each other. Nah, he should have added that maybe the doctor could tell what the original post has to do with bike racing. Nothing as far as I can see. JT — NB: reply-to address is munged Visit http://www.jt10000.com

To be fair, it was cross posted to RST, RR, and RBR. Doesn’t make the responder any less of a jerk, though. The original post could be considered valid in all three forums.

Response:

To be fair, it was cross posted to RST, RR, and RBR. Doesn’t make the responder any less of a jerk, though. The original post could be considered valid in all three forums.

No it isn’t. I’m not familiar with the posting guidelines for rec.running and rec.sport.triathlon, but the post was off topic in rec.bikes.racing. Coming from someone not doing bike races, that is especially annoying. See the FAQ. JT — NB: reply-to address is munged Visit http://www.jt10000.com

Response:

Now my question: is there a link between this low heart rate and possibly low blood pressure? Am I correct in assuming that low blood pressure is a possible reason for the dizziness? Should I get a full medical check-up just in case?

As for the dizziness, I have an explanation which sounds correct, though I have no data to back it up. I conjecture that the dizziness is caused by improved cardiovascular efficiency which reduces the resistance in your blood vessels. Thus, when you are fit and you stand up, the blood will more easily flow towards your lower body. In any case, this problem is typical for fit cyclists. It is usually called a "head rush", as in "Wow, head rush, got to sit down." Fred Matheny, in his book "Beginning Bicycle Racing" talks about how he had to be careful when teaching his classes because of starting to pass out when standing up to write something on the blackboard, this being one of his examples of problems cyclists have to deal with. As for the person who described triathlon as a "gay" sport. It is my experience that triathletes are usually fitter than cyclists in comparable classes. However, cyclists are usually much faster, because they do more speedwork. The best triathletes are as good as most cyclists. Hopefully, more triathletes will start training with racing cyclists, as this will help them get faster. -ilan

Response:

Hi, I’m a reasonably fit age group triathlete. My total weekly training includes approximately 3 km swimming, up to 150 km cycling and up to 20 km running. My daily job is quite sedate – office type work, but I train at least 6 days a week. I eat a healthy and varied diet and I think that generally I sleep/rest/recover enough. Most of my running is done early mornings, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. On those days especially, I have noticed that I sometimes feel a little dizzy when getting up after sitting at my desk for a while. This always passes quite quickly and presents no real problem at the moment. Also, I have measured my rest heart rate. This morning at work, after running a slow 8 km at 6 am, my heart rate was around 35 bpm. This appears to be quite low. Now my question: is there a link between this low heart rate and possibly low blood pressure? Am I correct in assuming that low blood pressure is a possible reason for the dizziness? Should I get a full medical check-up just in case? Thanks, Marcus

Response:

You should get a check up.  While you’re at it, you should visit a shrink in order to determine why you’d feel the need to compete in a sport so gay as triathalon. I hope that you work things out.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m a reasonably fit age group triathlete. My total weekly training includes approximately 3 km swimming, up to 150 km cycling and up to 20 km running. My daily job is quite sedate – office type work, but I train at least 6 days a week. I eat a healthy and varied diet and I think that generally I sleep/rest/recover enough. Most of my running is done early mornings, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. On those days especially, I have noticed that I sometimes feel a little dizzy when getting up after sitting at my desk for a while. This always passes quite quickly and presents no real problem at the moment. Also, I have measured my rest heart rate. This morning at work, after running a slow 8 km at 6 am, my heart rate was around 35 bpm. This appears to be quite low. Now my question: is there a link between this low heart rate and possibly low blood pressure? Am I correct in assuming that low blood pressure is a possible reason for the dizziness? Should I get a full medical check-up just in case? Thanks, Marcus

Response:

Well, the last replier should be somewhere else where they just sling insults at each other.  Your 35 bpm is quite low and that’s good.  It’s means that while the average person’s heart has to beat 72 times per minute, your heart has to only beat half as much to accomplish the same amount of blood pumping.  I don’t think there is any link between the low heart rate and low blood pressure.  The circumstances are more explanatory:  You were sitting for a while, your pressure dropped because you were physically relaxed, then you stood up quickly.  All of a sudden, your head got several feet higher aand you started to get light-headed before your pressure went up to supply blood to your brain.  I am 6′5" and this has happened to me occasionally since I went into puberty(40 some years ago).  It can still happen, like if I jump up from bed.  The answer is simply to stand up slowly to allow the pressure to build.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m a reasonably fit age group triathlete. My total weekly training includes approximately 3 km swimming, up to 150 km cycling and up to 20 km running. My daily job is quite sedate – office type work, but I train at least 6 days a week. I eat a healthy and varied diet and I think that generally I sleep/rest/recover enough. Most of my running is done early mornings, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. On those days especially, I have noticed that I sometimes feel a little dizzy when getting up after sitting at my desk for a while. This always passes quite quickly and presents no real problem at the moment. Also, I have measured my rest heart rate. This morning at work, after running a slow 8 km at 6 am, my heart rate was around 35 bpm. This appears to be quite low. Now my question: is there a link between this low heart rate and possibly low blood pressure? Am I correct in assuming that low blood pressure is a possible reason for the dizziness? Should I get a full medical check-up just in case? Thanks, Marcus

Response:

<snip from David   I am 6′5" and this has happened to me occasionally since I went into puberty(40 some years ago).  It can still happen, like if I jump up from bed.  The answer is simply to stand up slowly to allow the pressure to build.

I totally agree with David here, however if it persists and not just an isolated problem I would go get it evaluated.  You are sitting all day and need to time to adjust to standing. Although getting a medical check up would not hurt either if it is bothersome to you, and if this is something that just started out of the blue. You are an triathlete and must be very fit conscious. Are you well hydrated? Does your HR go up when you stand. Are you near syncope? It can be nothing or it could be something.  Think preventive health and get a regular physical not just when you have problems.. Simple orthostatics  Blood pressure while lying flat then standing and they will check HR too May do sitting too. ( each MD is different ) If b/p drops within a certain range and the HR goes up within a certain range then dehydration could be one of many reasons. If you are getting out of you car and dizzy then I would certainly get it checked out. Stay healthy!!! Laurie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, the last replier should be somewhere else where they just sling insults at each other.  Your 35 bpm is quite low and that’s good.  It’s means that while the average person’s heart has to beat 72 times per minute, your heart has to only beat half as much to accomplish the same amount of blood pumping.  I don’t think there is any link between the low heart rate and low blood pressure.  The circumstances are more explanatory:  You were sitting for a while, your pressure dropped because you were physically relaxed, then you stood up quickly.  All of a sudden, your head got several feet higher aand you started to get light-headed before your pressure went Hi, I’m a reasonably fit age group triathlete. My total weekly training includes approximately 3 km swimming, up to 150 km cycling and up to 20 km running. My daily job is quite sedate – office type work, but I train at least 6 days a week. I eat a healthy and varied diet and I think that generally I sleep/rest/recover enough. Most of my running is done early mornings, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. On those days especially, I have noticed that I sometimes feel a little dizzy when getting up after sitting at my desk for a while. This always passes quite quickly and presents no real problem at the moment. Also, I have measured my rest heart rate. This morning at work, after running a slow 8 km at 6 am, my heart rate was around 35 bpm. This appears to be quite low. Now my question: is there a link between this low heart rate and possibly low blood pressure? Am I correct in assuming that low blood pressure is a possible reason for the dizziness? Should I get a full medical check-up just in case? Thanks, Marcus

Response:

Question:

This article was posted on rec.bikes.tech several months ago. I lost track of it, but it was posted again today. Originally, it was partially translated from German, and rather difficult to get through. I’ve attempted to take the translation the rest of the way. Fortunately, numbers defy translation errors, but any other errors are probably mine. The table will need a fixed-spacing font in case your reader isn’t set up that way. I like the approach taken in this test. Unlike what we would see in U.S. magazine, these guys spent some effort devising a bias-free test that is repeatable and verifiable. Too bas they couldn’t get hold of Specialized Tri-Spokes. Some of the conclusions in the text are a little flaky, in my opinion, and I’ve tightened them up under the assumption that it was a translation error. So, call this a paraphrase of a translation. I also note that my favorite Spinergys peform within one or two percent of the best non-disk wheels tested. Because this is a power test, and not an aerodynamic drag test, the weight of the wheel should be considered. Of course, the test was performed at constant speed, so the weight of the wheel has no effect. But the test closely approximates flat time trials in the real world. All you technogeeks, enjoy. [Taken from the German bike magazine Tour, who tested 10 Aero-Wheels in their September '96 issue.] The Test The wheels were tested on a Faggin frame, which was equipped with the SRM Power Meter. The crank used is the well known SRM crank which employs 24 strain gauges between the crank and chainwheels to precisely measure pedaling forces and the cyclist’s power output. The computer at the handlebar records the pedaling power of the cyclist and the speed. The test cyclist (Lars Teutenberg, a German professional) had to ride several times around a track at exactly 45 km/hour. After every test the data of the SRM Power Meter were transferred to a computer. The power required to maintain 45 km/hr with each of the tested wheels was measured in this way. To ensure equal conditions, all wheels used the same tires with the same pressure. A special fitting  on the saddle forced the Mr. Tuetenberg to maintain just one consistent position for all the tests. The tester was alone on the course to avoid air turbulence resulting from other riders. The bike was fitted with a 53-tooth chain-wheel and a 15-tooth cog, providing a cadence of about 102.5 revolutions per minute. Temperature was constant at 22

Question:

I have a complaint about NBC’s coverage. Yes, its great that they put together a 2 hour presentation, however, they neglect to present Ironman as more of a race. It seems to me, NBC paints it to be some personal challenge, or spiritual journey (which it is to many).  So what’s wrong with that? Well, viewers who know little about triathlon  get the idea that Ironman  is just some novelty rather than a legitimate, professional sport, not to mention World Championship. NBC dismisses the fact just about every RACER out there worked long and hard to qualify. Simply put, these athletes don’t get  the credit they deserve for being the best in the world. Chris Rushing  _O_                 I       I     I_I/I_I          

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a complaint about NBC’s coverage. Yes, its great that they put together a 2 hour presentation, however, they neglect to present Ironman as more of a race. It seems to me, NBC paints it to be some personal challenge, or spiritual journey (which it is to many).  So what’s wrong with that? Well, viewers who know little about triathlon  get the idea that Ironman  is just some novelty rather than a legitimate, professional sport, not to mention World Championship. NBC dismisses the fact just about every RACER out there worked long and hard to qualify. Simply put, these athletes don’t get  the credit they deserve for being the best in the world. Chris Rushing  _O_ I       I I_I/I_I

I agree.  Neither NBC (or ABC before them) present the event as the World Championship that it is.  The viewing public gets the idea that 1500 athletes somple decide to ‘do it’ and show up.  A 90 second spot explaining how one gets to the start line would go a long way. The run of the mill viewer has no idea that these are the best of the world best. Augie Calabrese

Response:

I have in the past posted specific complaints about IMH coverage. But overall I have to state that it is excellent in most respects. Don’t look for them to cover IMH like the do the World Track and Field Championships. Hell, be thankful that they don’t! When I first watched IMH on NBC, I didn’t think of it as pro football or baseball or world class track that I could never do anything more than watch. Their broadcast shouted out to me — you can do this is you’re committed enough (or if you should be committed, I can’t remember which feeling I had first). We don’t want triathlon portrayed as an elite event. We want to portray it as something worth doing, something that many more people should try. How many of us got into the sport through that broadcast? Most will never get to Kona, but we’re hooked. Brian Sullivan

Response:

: I have a complaint about NBC’s coverage. – I think I’ve watched every edition of the IMH TV coverage and

     have most on tape.  Though I never have taken the time to compare      and contrast each broadcast,  I can speak in general terms.      Generally, I would have to say last years edition was the best      in that it was presented much more like a race then it ever has        been in the years past.  Historically your right, it dwelled way      too much on the "human interest" elements.      The thing that I found more distracting this year was the MTVish      look they gave to the broadcast.  Lots of jerky shots at different      angles and jumping all over the place.  But, I know they edit these      to appeal to a certain market and there is a very strong possibility      I’m not in NBC’s target market.      So rather than bitch about the presentation, I bask in the glow of      knowing I’m not the sterotypical weekend couch potato NBC targets      when they put their shows together. -richd      

Response:

NBC has a formidable challenge when it comes to the IMH coverage.  I think they do a fantastic job.  For all of us triathletes, whether we have been to Hawaii (participant or spectator), or have just dreamt of going, have are own versions of Ironman. I think that NBC is sucessful because they are not necessarily trying to connect to the triathlete, but to the Sunday afternoon TV viewer.  NBC presents IMH in a way that the average person is captivated by the sport. Everyone I know that is a non-triathlete and has seen their broadcast is awed by it.  They may be less impressed if it was portrayed as just a race in a sport they are not connected to, but NBC captivates non- triathletes with a race that is more of a personal/spiritual journey. To we triathletes, IMH needs no explaning. We understand.  TV coverage has done a lot to get people interested in the sport, and I find at work, once someone has watched the coverage, all of a sudden they are asking detailed questions when I come in Monday morning after a race, instead of the usual "How was your race?", and that’s it.   That to me is the value of the coverage – get people informed and interested.  I’m sure many people have tried a local race after their introduction to the sport from NBC. Alison

Response:

Well put Alison.  Most of my friends don’t understand triathlon until they watch IMH on tv.  That’s ok with me.  They understand the persistence and dedication part (the human interest side).  Most still think we’re nuts for putting in the time.  Oh well,some of us (me included) keep training with the hope of getting to IMH some day. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I think that NBC is sucessful because they are not necessarily trying to connect to the triathlete, but to the Sunday afternoon TV viewer.   Everyone I know that is a non-triathlete and has seen their broadcast is awed by it.

Response:

 Most of my friends watch it on the tube and then go over and see it in person and they say tv does not capture the race. I agree. Lesley

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Question:

Does anyone know where the results are posted? Thanks

Response:

Hello,      The results should be up in the next few days at http://www.runningnetwork.com/RunTriNews.  There was a computer problem which has forced the results to be done manually so it is taking a little longer but they will be available as soon as possible. Jon Hill

Response:

Question:

I’m 43y and training for my 1st tri in AUG. I was told to work on the bike more than the run / have’nt run since 85′any sugg.? but do work out

Response:

I’m 43y and training for my 1st tri in AUG. I was told to work on the bike more than the run / have’nt run since 85′any sugg.? but do work out

I’m far (very far) from a great runner and I’ll tell you this – practice the bike/run transistion!  For me it is the hardest part of the race.  I come from a cycling background and would recommend working on those events which are NOT your strength.  Sure, you can gain/lose a lot of time on the bike leg since it’s the longest, but if you die on the run it’s all a moot point!  Good luck!

Response:

Hello Triguys, Would you like to know everything about Triathlon? Visit my homepage: —              Mail sent by Jort Vlam Cybersite: http://www.flnet.nl/~0vlam01 — Please sign my gastbook, so I know who you’re and I can visit your cybersite!! If you would like more information about "Triathlon Vereniging Almere" you could send me an email! Bye, Jort Vlam

Response:

Instead of swimming, biking or running on Sundays, couldn’t one swim, bike and run albeit for less time each, for training.

Response:

There is a pretty good videotape that describes all the legs of a tri, how to set up your transition area, what to expect, some training tips, pre-race stuff, etc.  There’s lots of books too.  The tape is done by a famous triathlete, Dave somebody, that won several Ironmans.  His last name is just not coming out of my brain today.  Check your library under subject = triathlon.  If you don’t see it, ask for them to look around for a interlibrary loan. Best of luck. — The opinions expressed here are my own and are worth what you paid for them. Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.

Response:

famous triathlete, Dave somebody, that won several Ironmans.  

Dave Scott, perchance? Heide New York City

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Question:

I had a great time in Santa Cruz. I finished in 2:55:33. Here’s my race report.

*snip* Congratulations, Steve!  Welcome to the Asylum! You looked excellent out there on the run, totally fresh and in control. Nice job!  Wish I could have found you afterward.  But there’s always next season…. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

I had a great time in Santa Cruz. I finished in 2:55:33. Here’s my race report. The Swim : I was ready for the mass of humanity at the start of the race this time. Once again I started as far back and to the outside as reasonable to avoid the crunch. Although my wave looked to be every bit as big as Pacific Grove, it was spread out over a much wider area. I was able to get into a smooth stroke almost right away and headed for the pier. The seas were very calm and the swim was very uneventful. I was very pleased and almost shocked as I came out of the water and punched the split button on my HRM. I had completed the mile in 29:42. This was about 10 minutes faster than I had done the 1.5K swim in PG. The Bike: I was considerably smarter about the bike this time around. I was able to borrow my old roomates Trek 2300 road bike. I could not believe the difference between the Trek and my converted mountain bike. Of course I had gotten a block out of the transition area before I remembered to hit the split button. My T1 time was painfully slow at 7:04. I really enjoyed the bike course. I got passed by tons of riders, but concentrated on keeping my heart rate where I wanted it, and hydrating as much as possible. The rolling hills were not too bad and I cruised into the transition area with a time of 1:12:53 for the 23 miles. With a fairly short T2 this put me on the run course at 1 hour 50 minutes. The Run: My first thought was; Could I break 3 hours? I knew that 10:30 miles would put me in just under the mark. That became my goal. I started out at what I thought was about that pace. As I reached the first mile marker, my left calf decided it was time to tell me how unhappy it was. That could have been because my first mile split was 9:30. I slowed a little but still knew that 3 hours was within my reach. I stopped at each of the aide stations to drink two cups of water and dump one on my head. I must have been dehydrated since the pain subsided after I got some water in me. The rest of the run was rather uneventful. I saw Tri-Baby and and gave her a "go" around 2 1/2 miles out. I finished the run in 1:04 right on the heels, really toes since he crossed running backwards, of Kestrel’s own Preston Sandusky. The Race: When compared to Pacific Grove, which I just survived, I had a great time at the Sentinel. The course was great, the weather superb, and the volunteers very helpful. I made good improvements in all three events. What more could I ask for? I guess this means I’ve picked up yet another expensive hobby. I’m looking forward to next season….. —

Response:

Question:

In the spirit of that greatest American tradition, when we can’t have our way we file suit, Steve Locke has decided that it is in the best interest of USATri, the sport, and his ITU presidential bid to seek some sort of legal injunction against present ITU president Les McDonald.  My first reaction is one of is this a case of the pot calling the kettle balck?  Is Mr. Locke’s house in order (let he who is without sin cast the first stone), and is he prepared to be scruntized for his actions, and lack thereof, while heading USATri? So, let me get this straight.  The sport is heading into THE most important four-year period in its existence,and USATri is filing suit against the sports international president.  So much for being a cohesive unit in the eyes of the Olympic family and that of the general public.  Keep it guys and we’ll make the AVP/FIVA fued look like a lovefest.  Triathlon will make boxing look like the model of efficency. Rather than working within the system, using contacts, seeking input from USOC powerbrokers, and developing a solid base of support in which to challenge McDoanld, Locke has decided to use a tremendous amount of pro bono assistance from its attorneys to go to court on an international level. Is it too late to recruit Colin Powell to get involved? Aloha. Sean

Response:

In the spirit of that greatest American tradition, when we can’t have our way we file suit, Steve Locke has decided that it is in the best interest of USATri, the sport, and his ITU presidential bid to seek some sort of legal injunction against present ITU president Les McDonald.  My first reaction is one of is this a case of the pot calling the kettle balck?  Is Mr. Locke’s house in order (let he who is without sin cast the first stone), and is he prepared to be scruntized for his actions, and lack thereof, while heading USATri?

I’m sure USA Tri. will clarify this, but I think the suit pertains only to the re-election of Mark Sisson.  As for your other comments regarding Steve Locke having "his house in order", what exactly are you referring to?  If you are going to make statements like that, why not tell us what the heck you are referring to?  A large percentage of triathletes (but apparently not their representatives) think that the sport is heading in the wrong direction.  I have yet to see any similar complaints or concerns regarding USA Tri.  Inuendo serves no purpose. So, let me get this straight.  The sport is heading into THE most important four-year period in its existence,and USATri is filing suit against the sports international president.  So much for being a cohesive unit in the eyes of the Olympic family and that of the general public.  Keep it guys and we’ll make the AVP/FIVA fued look like a lovefest.  Triathlon will make boxing look like the model of efficency.

I think you’re getting a little carried away here. Rather than working within the system, using contacts, seeking input from USOC powerbrokers, and developing a solid base of support in which to challenge McDoanld, Locke has decided to use a tremendous amount of pro bono assistance from its attorneys to go to court on an international level.

I think you had better get the facts concerning the announced lawsuit.  In addition, why work within a corrupt system? — Marty Miller Proprietor of The Triathlete’s Web http://w3.one.net/~triweb

Response:

Question:

OPEN HAND POSITION IS MORE AERODYNAMIC….. THINK ABOUT THE SURFACE AREA THAT THE WIND HAS TO GO AGAINST. THE LESS SUFACE AREA THE LESS WIND RESISTANCE…. TRI GUY:                                      _

I don’t see any significant difference between open or closed hands regarding surface area (did you really mean frontal area?) When air hits an object it tends to do that tear drop thing. Having two smaller objects pushing through the air will create a bigger hole in the wind than one object of equal total frontal area, thus greating more drag and is therefore slower. The one hole approach (hands together) produces a single smaller turbulent zone for the torso to follow through, creating less overall drag. My high speed skiing experience has taught me that the hands together approach is faster. I can beat just about anyone downhill given equal equipment. The fact that corners exhilerate me rather than scare me also helps. My swimming experience (not too much but increasing) I have learned that streamling off the wall is fastest with hands together and the body going through the turbulent zone greated by the hands. Most aerodynamic is not always the most important but it is worth maximzing ones aerodynamics while reducing power output as little as possible. I race with hands together whenever I can. TriDork

Response:

OPEN HAND POSITION IS MORE AERODYNAMIC….. THINK ABOUT THE SURFACE AREA THAT THE WIND HAS TO GO AGAINST. THE LESS SUFACE AREA THE LESS WIND RESISTANCE…. TRI GUY:

I am assuming that "open" means the hands are apart and not touching each other, and "closed" means the hands are together and touching. I disagree.  I think a closed hand position is faster.  Think of a downhill skier in a tuck position.  Are his hands apart or together?  They are together.  Why?  Less surface area is exposed (skin pressed together).  Also, there is less disruption of the air as the skier or bike/rider pass through, since the body essentially "drafts" of the hands.  The hands and arms break the air, and the rest of the body follows behind. Also, the closed hands prevent area from entering in between the arms and striking the rider’s abdominal/chest area.   That being said, there is a comfort trade-off with closed hand positioning.  Breathing is harder when hands are close together. In addition, I have found more back strain as well since this is not a natural position (open is, in my opinion).   I think people alternate closed to open simply for comfort and change of position.  During the Ironman bike leg, I found many positions during the 6 hour ride -Rolf —    Rolf "Ironman" Arands, Ph.D. (Chemical Engineering)   Dept. of Chem. and Biochem. Eng’g, Rutgers University  –These are my highly opinionated views, not Rutgers’–

Response:

If you have a big drop, then the hands apart position allows the air to flow between the hands with only the seatpost to break the airflow moving through. If your elbow rests are up higher, then the hands close will split the airflow and direct it around your body rather than into your chest.         Then why was Colby Pearce, who rides with one of the lowest

positions out there, able to significantly decrease his drag by *narrowing* his elbow position? I

think the "elbows apart to let air flow through" may just be a myth based on some coincidental

observations on Chris Boardman, which have never been published in any detail…

  I think that the hands and elbows together is the most aero(but not the most stable) in any case. I was just making the point that the hands apart position is only efficient with a big drop to the aero bars. Otherwise you are reducing frontal area on your arms, only to let the airflow hit you directly in the chest to negate any possible gains. Sorry for any confusion.   The best way to see your position is to take photos on the trainer from the front and side, imagine the airflow, and adjust your position to present the smallest frontal area and flattest profile, while still retaining a efficient and (reasonably) comfortable position. You will also see that unless your elbows are below your seat, the frontal area of your hand/arm position doesn’t mean squat. Hands together, and head down, will redirect the airflow around your body in the higher position. As you get lower, the hands can separate for stability without sacrificing as much to the wind. It worked for Paula at Kona. Look at the photos. But, hey…what do I know? I’m a hairdresser, not an engineer. Andrew Peabody Miami Beach

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OPEN HAND POSITION IS MORE AERODYNAMIC….. THINK ABOUT THE SURFACE AREA THAT THE WIND HAS TO GO AGAINST. THE LESS SUFACE AREA THE LESS WIND RESISTANCE…. TRI GUY:

WHOOPS – SLOPPY TYPING – TYPOES FIXED I am assuming that "open" means the hands are apart and not touching each other, and "closed" means the hands are together and touching. I disagree.  I think a closed hand position is faster.  Think of a downhill skier in a tuck position.  Are his hands apart or together?  They are together.  Why?  Less surface area is exposed (skin pressed together).  Also, there is less disruption of the air as the skier or bike/rider passes through, since the body essentially "drafts" off the hands.  The hands and arms break the air, and the rest of the body follows behind. Also, the closed hands prevent air from entering in between the arms and striking the rider’s abdominal/chest area.   That being said, there is a comfort trade-off with closed hand positioning.  Breathing is harder when hands are close together. In addition, I have found more back strain as well since this is not a natural position (open is, in my opinion).  

I think people alternate closed to open simply for comfort and change of position.  During the Ironman bike leg, I found many positions during the 6 hour ride -Rolf —    Rolf "Ironman" Arands, Ph.D. (Chemical Engineering)   Dept. of Chem. and Biochem. Eng’g, Rutgers University  –These are my highly opinionated views, not Rutgers’–

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Peirce with an hands together position on the cover of Inside Triathlon. While every one seems to be going to the open hand position on the aero bars. Any opinions?????? cheers Sam

I’m not sure if this is correct but I think it would depend on the drop between the seat and handlbars. If you have a big drop, then the hands apart position allows the air to flow between the hands with only the seatpost to break the airflow moving through. If your elbow rests are up higher, then the hands close will split the airflow and direct it around your body rather than into your chest. The hands apart is definitely more stable in windy conditions. I use a single tube aerobar and a low drop so I guess it’s whatever works for you. These manufacturers have to keep coming out with new products so the theory changes. Heaven forbid we ever finish building our bike. Andrew Peabody Miami Beach

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OPEN HAND POSITION IS MORE AERODYNAMIC….. THINK ABOUT THE SURFACE AREA THAT THE WIND HAS TO GO AGAINST. THE LESS SUFACE AREA THE LESS WIND RESISTANCE…. TRI GUY:                                      _ :                                   –    o :      ’             –  __o       –    </_ :  `     ‘         –    <         – __/ :    /o_         – (()) (())        -  /

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If you have a big drop, then the hands apart position allows the air to flow between the hands with only the seatpost to break the airflow moving through. If your elbow rests are up higher, then the hands close will split the airflow and direct it around your body rather than into your chest.

        Then why was Colby Pearce, who rides with one of the lowest positions out there, able to significantly decrease his drag by *narrowing* his elbow position? I think the "elbows apart to let air flow through" may just be a myth based on some coincidental observations on Chris Boardman, which have never been published in any detail…

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Peirce with an hands together position on the cover of Inside Triathlon. While every one seems to be going to the open hand position on the aero bars. Any opinions?????? cheers Sam

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Peirce with an hands together position on the cover of Inside Triathlon. While every one seems to be going to the open hand position on the aero bars. Any opinions??????

If you’re asking for OPINIONS, here’s just an educated guess: – The hands-together position is more aerodynamic. – The hands-apart position is probably more comfortable (i.e., allowing the chest to be more open, facilitating breathing, etc.) For my money, comfort is usually going to outweigh aerodynamic considerations.  Being aero ain’t gonna help ya none if you’re too uncomfortable to use your full strength and power.  This is particularly true in a long event like a tri.  If the bike makes you particularly tired because you’re not comfortable, that extra strain will surely affect your running. Just an opinion… Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  /

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Question:

writes: Zag threatens JJSJ that he will have to do the triathlon

in a tutu.<< I’ll stick to paying for one another’s entry fee thanks. But how do we find out for sure how many spectators were watching the Ixtapa race?

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| JJSJ said: | | Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too | me, ain’t triathlon.<< | | To clarify a bit (whether you agree with me or not) … |  I meant that the athletes may not have really planned to finish the race, | just help out "teammates" on the bike. Therefore, since they didn’t really | plan to finish, I question the value of this athlete to the quality of | field factor. To me, this is part and parcel of allowing drafting. I’m not saying it’s bad – I enjoy the Tour de France as much as the next guy – but, if drafting is allowed, we can’t expect triathlon to remain as it is. I agree with you then, they should measure the quality of the field based on who finishes, not who started.  ..but I, also, could care less… | Actually, I could care less about any ITU World Cup rulings, as I feel the | whole series is unfair . | Lots of pros feel this way, too,  but are afraid to say anything. | Fortunately, this series is a pro problem and has little effect on | age-group racing. Chris — Ontario Telepresence Project, 2670 Queensview Dr., Ottawa, ON, K2B 8K1, CANADA

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JJSJ said: Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too me, ain’t triathlon.<< To clarify a bit (whether you agree with me or not) …  I meant that the athletes may not have really planned to finish the race, just help out "teammates" on the bike. Therefore, since they didn’t really plan to finish, I question the value of this athlete to the quality of field factor.

Still, regardless of the plan to drop out or not. The athletes were still competing with them for most of the race.  Acutually, I would think that this situation should increase the difficulty factor.  If you’ve got people out there that are just going to blast the bike to help a teammate, then the competitiveness just went up a notch. On the ITU, (the part of the post that I deleted). I too, couldn’t really care what they decide.  I do get a little concerned however when something looks like it might trickle down to the age groupers. The good thing is that the pros look like they are begining to band together a little bit against the ITU. John K.

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re: ITU quality of field debate OK. QRman was right (damn!).  I made a few calls and was told that an ITU triathlete can actually benefit him or herself by  lowering the QOF points of another  ITU’er by dropping out. It’s hard to figure. Perhaps SZAG can get Mr. Gilmore on Internet to explain the fabulous concept for those folks who are really interested.

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To clarify a bit (whether you agree with me or not) … I meant that the athletes may not have really planned to finish the race, just help out "teammates" on the bike. Therefore, since they didn’t really plan to finish, I question the value of this athlete to the quality of field factor.

I didn’t understand what you meant before either, but your clarification clears it up for me. The issue of "teammates" in a triathlon working like domestiques really changes the idea of triathlon being an individual sport. IMHO, drafting legal triathlons belong in rec.sport.bogus.                            _ <_         <               ___/o__    ( )/( )       /

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JJSJ said: Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too me, ain’t triathlon.<<

To clarify a bit (whether you agree with me or not) …  I meant that the athletes may not have really planned to finish the race, just help out "teammates" on the bike. Therefore, since they didn’t really plan to finish, I question the value of this athlete to the quality of field factor. Actually, I could care less about any ITU World Cup rulings, as I feel the whole series is unfair . Lots of pros feel this way, too,  but are afraid to say anything. Fortunately, this series is a pro problem and has little effect on age-group racing.

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To clarify a bit (whether you agree with me or not) … I didn’t understand what you meant before either, but your clarification clears it up for me. The issue of "teammates" in a triathlon working like domestiques really changes the idea of triathlon being an individual sport. IMHO, drafting legal triathlons belong in rec.sport.bogus.

I think it would be fun to have 2 types of tri-s.  1) the original non-drafting ITT and 2) a true team tri where the teams time is the third across the line (all members do all three events) like TTT in cycling. This would also accurately and correctly acknowledge the ITU’s draft-legal races as team time-trials. Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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Gotsick) writes: How did the ITU manage to foist this monstrosity

onto the sport?  What can we do to reverse it?  The answers are obvious:  We didn’t speak up early on, and we have to do so now.<< Remember the saying "What if they gave a war and nobody came? Or the tired cliche: The tail doesn’t wag the dog. This thread is getting sizzling! Didn’t it start with a set of race results? The athletes (pro and age-group) are the real powerbrokers, the movers and shakers of this sport, not the ITU or sports agents of the stars, or writers.  You can speak and vote with your dollars and presence (or lack of).

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Gotsick) writes: …Drafting is not what this sport is about.  I don’t want to see it in age-group races and I don’t want to see it in pro races either.  How did the ITU manage to foist this monstrosity onto the sport?

TV $$$$

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Brug) writes:

<<a true team tri where the teams time is the third across the line (all members do all three events) like TTT in cycling.  This would also accurately and correctly acknowledge the ITU’s draft-legal races as team time-trials. This is a great idea, I love it.  Especially in events which are raced by participants who are representatives of a team, i.e., Worlds.  This is such a good idea, I am sure nothing will come of it. QRman

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gotsick) writes: How did the ITU manage to foist this monstrosity onto the sport?  What can we do to reverse it?  The answers are obvious:  We didn’t speak up early on, and we have to do so now.<< Remember the saying "What if they gave a war and nobody came? Or the tired cliche: The tail doesn’t wag the dog. This thread is getting sizzling! Didn’t it start with a set of race results? The athletes (pro and age-group) are the real powerbrokers, the movers and shakers of this sport, not the ITU or sports agents of the stars, or writers.

If this was/is true, then all the pros should have showed up to the Gold Coast World tri where Tinely/Pigg/Allen were banned.  It would have been pretty interesting season if all the pros/elites had been banned.  Until athletes start sticking together, we’ll only have a few martyrs and be the sport will still be dominated by sports agents / writers etc. Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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JJSJ said: Actually, I could care less about any ITU World Cup rulings, as I feel the whole series is unfair . Lots of pros feel this way, too,  but are afraid to say anything. Fortunately, this series is a pro problem and has little effect on age-group racing.

Don’t forget, the ITU represents *International* Triathlon issues – the USA (and its pros) represent one country out of the total of countries in the ITU (about 190?), as important as we think we are.

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: JJSJ said: : : Actually, I could care less about any ITU World Cup rulings, as I feel the : whole series is unfair . : Lots of pros feel this way, too,  but are afraid to say anything. : Fortunately, this series is a pro problem and has little effect on : age-group racing. on’t forget, the ITU represents *International* Triathlon issues – the USA and its pros) represent one country out of the total of countries in the :ITU about 190?), as important as we think we are. So what? Where are the national federations that are so keen on having drafting in triathlon legalized? The ones I know of (Germany, France, Switzerland) do not, or if they do they say:         We’ve got to go with the format the World Championships         and the Olympics are going to have… If only they ganged up together and pressurised the ITU on ENFORCING THE RULES as they stand, for a year or two. And then we’ll see if they really are unenforceable. And then we could take a vote (first, each nation on its own, and then in an ITU General Assembly (if such a thing exists)) and see where the majority wants to go. Would make a nice change from the handful of ITU-officials working their backsides off without any contact to reality. —                             Ulrich Porsch             Wer spricht vom Siegen, "Ubersteh’n ist alles  

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writes: <<<Yes, I was wondering what happened to three of the top guys who were noted on the press release as the swim leaders — Andrew MacMartin, currently #2 in overall standings; Wes Hobson, #3; and Nate Llerandi, #10 — yet didn’t finish among the top 10 in the race. MacMartin and Hobson both dropped out on the run.  Wes said 4th and 5th place had passed him and he felt it would be better for him to drop out to bring down QF factor.  This is probably true since he is so high up in standings and may jeopardize his #3 spot.  Same for MacMartin.  He didn’t seem very confident the night before the race and confessed he was not super sharp, so I don’t think he was in contention for a top spot.  Llerandi finished 17th, I believe, with a very bad run.   — HKS WEST, Inc.                                  Phone: (510) 794-5891 Suite 205                                       3900 Newpark Mall Road                   Newark, California 94560

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Brug) writes:

<<…all the pros should have showed up to the Gold Coast World tri where Tinely/Pigg/Allen were banned.  It would have been pretty interesting season if all the pros/elites had been banned. If all the pros had shown up, there would have been no ban.  Remember that the reason for the ban was (race promoter) Barry Voevodin’s insistence on his use of the word "World".  You will notice that we just had the Ironman Triathlon "World Championship" (which was not at all the world championship, according to the ITU) and there was no mention of an ITU ban on athletes who would compete in that race. But back to the drafting thing-  I don’t see why you guys are so upset. For pros only, on a loop course, especially in a team format (which hasn’t happened yet, but will) I think it’s great.  Would I like it for non-loop courses, for age-group athletes, or for all races?  No to all of the above.  But it was fine in Orange County, and would be for races like that.   The only thing that bothers me is that Ixtapa was not the place for a drafting legal race, IMHO, so me wonders why they did it, unless the intent of the ITU is to make drafting the way of all races.   In nordic skiing there are classic and freestyle races, where the practicioners of both disciplines get a chance to shine.  What about both kinds of racing in triathlon, with world championships alternating in style from year to year? QRman

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writes: I therefore propose a rule change that judges the quality of the field based on those athletes who start the race.<< QRman I have to disagree with you on this one issue. I heard that some of the riders "sacrificed" themselves on the draft-legal bike (paceline) to catch up to the leader. Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too me, ain’t triathlon. So I’d say the quality of field as in finishers would be more in the interest of fairness.

I agree with Dan.  The current system devalues the efforts of the winner– especially if someone is "having the race of their life" and won’t win another event all year. Pat —    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

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writes: I therefore propose a rule change that judges the quality of the field based on those athletes who start the race.<< QRman I have to disagree with you on this one issue. I heard that some of the riders "sacrificed" themselves on the draft-legal bike (paceline) to catch up to the leader. Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too me, ain’t triathlon.

Yeah, so. That doesn’t mean you should drop out! As far as the other racers are concerned (the ones that finished) they were still racing a top field for at least 2/3 of the race.  I side with QRman.  Now, that drafting thing is another issue (you said it well, that ain’t triathlon) John K.

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QRman, who witnessed the Ixtapa World Cup race, notes: A couple of the top pros, those who are well up in the ITU World Cup standings, dropped out.  They were having okay races, but by finishing the race at all they would lend "value" to the race (from a points perspective) because of its increased "difficulty of field".  By dropping out these athletes insured that the top finishers got fewer points.   Yes, I was wondering what happened to three of the top guys who were noted on the press release as the swim leaders — Andrew MacMartin, currently #2 in overall standings; Wes Hobson, #3; and Nate Llerandi, #10 — yet didn’t finish among the top 10 in the race. So, Scott … did they finish, or did they drop out? QRman brings up a most interesting point. Katy Williams

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<<ITU WORLD CUP IXTAPA RESULTS [snip] I just got back from there, fellow netter Andy Kelsey got his first Mexican experience, and had a good race as well.  The race was well put on, as are most of the races in Mexico. One thing bothered me.  A couple of the top pros, those who are well up in the ITU World Cup standings, dropped out.  They were having okay races, but by finishing the race at all they would lend "value" to the race (from a points perspective) because of its increased "difficulty of field".  By dropping out these athletes insured that the top finishers got fewer points.   I therefore propose a rule change that judges the quality of the field based on those athletes who start the race. QRman

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ZAG

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Zag threatens JJSJ that he will have to do the triathlon in a tutu. That would be a lot easier than doing ballet in boxing shorts. The strength, endurance and skill of ballet is way beyond me; I’ll stick to the easy stuff – triathlons. Kazez

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writes: I therefore propose a rule change that judges the quality of the field

based on those athletes who start the race.<< QRman I have to disagree with you on this one issue. I heard that some of the riders "sacrificed" themselves on the draft-legal bike (paceline) to catch up to the leader. Then they didn’t have the legs to run. That, too me, ain’t triathlon. So I’d say the quality of field as in finishers would be more in the interest of fairness. As I said before Ixtapa is a great place to race. Tons of fun. If I had the bucks I’d go down there and  do it myself. Jeffrey Justice P.S.  Dan how many spectators would you say were there?

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ITU WORLD CUP IXTAPA RESULTS DRAFTING LEGAL, VERY HOT. 25,000 in the crowd for the multiple lap course. Smith and Beven shoulder to shoulder until the very end. Laurence leads off the bike in a group of four. Rose gets a lead out of the transition. Webb narrows the gap but fails to close. 1. BRAD BEVEN/AUS 2. SPENCER SMITH/GBR  -:08 3. RICARDO GONZALES/MEX -:42 4. PHILLIPE FATORI/FRA -1:02 5. BRAD KEARNS/USA – 1:22 1. JENNY ROSE/NZL 2. KATIE WEBB/USA  -:13 3. JANET HATFIELD/USA -:43 4. GAIL LAURENCE/USA – 1:33 5. MARIA LUISA MARTINEZ/MEX -6:33 STANDINGS 1. BEVEN/AUS 2. MACMARTIN/CAN 3. HOBSON/USA 4. FATORI/FRA 5. MAUCH/SUI 1. ROSE/NZL 2. WESTHOFF/GER 3. LAURENCE/USA 4. WEBB/USA 5. HATFIELD/USA

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25,000 in the crowd for the multiple lap course.<<<

Scott I’ve been to Ixtapa before, it’s a great race. But if this crowd count is even *1/2 true*, I, in front of all the Internet witnesses, will pay for your entry into the  the next ITU race that comes your way.  But if it’s not, you pay for my entry into Orange County in 1995? Deal? JJ

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Scott,  I’m confused. I see that Ixtapa was drafting-legal. Thus, I have some questions: 1.) Why was Ixtapa a drafting-legal race, if it wasn’t among the three ITU World Cup races (Osaka, Whistler, Sion) that NBC chose to televise in ‘94? I had the impression that drafting was adopted because "television wouldn’t take it unless it was more exciting." 2.) 1994 was the ITU’s "great experiment" with drafting in ITU World Cup races — at least five, right? What has been the result? Will ITU adopt drafting for all of its World Cup races in 1995, if it was indeed received as a great success? When will the 1995 ITU schedule be announced, and when it will it be determined which races will be drafting-legal? 3.) If drafting is such the success that ITU officials may claim it is, then why is the ITU stopping short of allowing drafting in the World Championships on Nov. 28 (at least among the pros)? Or, maybe I missed something. Will there be drafting in the World Championships? Why, or why not? I definitely missed the announcement that there would be drafting in Ixtapa, the ITU’s lead-up race to the World Championships … Katy Williams

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