Question:

You’ve skirted around the question that’s been burning on my mind. How can you train at one pace for a distance, and then race that distance (or more) at a pace that is substantially faster? I really don’t think I could hold my 10K training pace for 13 miles, but that’s approximately what the training plans I’ve looked at suggest.

Response:

You’ve skirted around the question that’s been burning on my mind. How can you train at one pace for a distance, and then race that distance (or more) at a pace that is substantially faster? I really don’t think I could hold my 10K training pace for 13 miles, but that’s approximately what the training plans I’ve looked at suggest.

agreed. you want to push yourself a bit more in training, so that you can meet the desired pace in the race. now you don’t want to run at race pace every day of training, but maybe once every couple of weeks, you could do a training run at your race pace. know what it feels like, then it won’t be a big deal when it’s race time. your body will get used to the faster pace after training for a while. Cam

Response:

I find that the "pain" of a race depends how fit I am.  When I’m unfit then there’s the heavy breathing lungs will explode feeling… when fit it’s more of a steady state of suffering.  Basically, when fit I’m able to run asking myself "Can I go any faster right now?" answer "Yes" or "no" and vary my speed accordingly. Track racing 800m against people of a similar ability is a great way to build your mental toughness and pacing. If you walk away from the finish then you didn’t race – unless you won. If you collapse before the finish then you went out too fast. That said, I only really RACE 2-3 times a year now that I’m running longer races because it takes so long to recover from that kind of effort. Cheers! Alex

Response:

        OK I’ve never *really* felt like quitting. Maybe that was a poor         choice of words. How about negative self-talk? That inner         conversation you have with yourself … where one part of you         is telling the other part how much it hurts … and how much         better you would feel if you could just sit there in the shade         and drink some gatorade … or at the very least how much less         it would hurt if you slowed down a little.         -Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A couple of thoughts … If it doesn’t hurt, you’re probably not racing. If you don’t feel like quitting, you’re probably not racing. I generally agree but I have never felt like quitting any race from 5k to marathon and yet I throw up at the end of every race from 10k on down.  I know a hard race is going to hurt but they never make me want to quit. Now for something a little more concrete … 10-mile race pace should be about at your lactate threshold. A HRM can help you determine your threshold pace. -Keith

– Keith Gemeinhart Technology Service Corp. Sebring, FL —

Response:

I’m a big believer in aerobic base, but speedwork is what gets you used to racing. As a former training partner explained it (he was an age-group champion), "You run hard in training, and then racing feels easier." He did hard three miles of all-out repeats once a week year-round. Not terribly smart, actually, because it does very little to develop endurance-at-speed. I’m coming around to believe that you need all three: aerobic base (moderate-paced long runs, as Lydiard prescribed, NOT slow long runs), plus tempo runs year round (20 minutes at 85-92% of MHR, 1-2x per week), and hard, short repeats for leg speed (quarters and halves for sharpening, just before the racing season). gb

Response:

Thanks for the replies guys, I’ve also been looking around at various race time predictors and suggested training paces from Runners World etc. Right now, my steady pace is around 9 min/mile. I’ve just run 10 miles at 9:08 aver, comfortably conversational for the first 8.5 and then we picked it up over the rest, finishing strongly but not all out. For a 3-6 mile run I’ll be below 9/mile, possibly 8:40 for a flat(ish) 3. For a tempo run I’m capable of running non-stop for 3 miles at 8:10 or less and then running a slow warm down feeling tired but capable of more. I push myself but can go straight to the warm down pace without needing to walk or stop so I guess it’s about right for tempo. Feel free to correct me Race wise, I reckon I could do < 7:30 for a 5k, maybe 7:20 – I’ll shoot for this or better on Sunday. Interestingly (to me anyway), for a 22:45 5k (7:19 per mile) the race predictor at http://home.connectnet.com/eoinf/predict.html predicts 1:44:30 for the 1/2 (7:58) Runners World in the September UK issue predicts around 1:57 (8:56) and amazingly, Bob Glover in ‘The Competitive Runners Handbook’ predicts 1:38:50 (7:33) A big difference between the three. I can only assume Mr Glover’s predictions are scaled down fro results found from elite athletes and those elites have put in the massive amounts of training needed to hold a half marathon pace so very close to 5k pace. The RunnersWorld predictions perhaps assume the opposite? Thinking about it, if I get below 23 mins for the 5k, I’ll aim for 8:15 to 8:20 per/mile for the half in a month’s time (which would give me a PB shot) – slower than I run my ‘tempo’ runs. By then, I’ll have runs  (I hope) over 10 miles 8 times in the 12 week build-up period. I’m sure if I had weekly 10 mile runs nearly every week of the year, my 1/2 pace would come down considerably. In fact, that’s another goal – to be doing the mileage every week that makes a 10-12 miler an easily achievable weekly run. Probably a more useful goal right now than worrying about pacing charlie — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After a couple of races in which I turned in performances below expectations I’ve been wondering if I was really not capable of achieving the times I wanted or just slowing up because I was a wuss when it started to hurt. Consequently, I’m interested in finding out – if it’s possible – what races feel like to other people. Take the 5k, the shortest distance I’ve tried. For me, this hurts soon after the start but I know it won’t last too long (around 23-25 minutes for me) which helps. (I’ve also been helped by every race so far being well on PB schedule by 3km – something to take my mind off the pain). I can stand on the start and think ‘Yes, I can survive the pain.’ in all of my races – any distance – i think *negative splits*. i want to make sure i have the steam to finish the race well. not draggin’ my arse. so after the first km goes by too quickly and i settle down (like everyone else), i click into my comfortable pace mode and hold that til about halfway. then i’ll up that a couple of notches so that i’m breathing a little harder and maintain that. then within the last few km’s, if i’m feeling good, i’ll pick up the pace even more, to the point that i’m puffing a bit with each exhale. arms pumping, faster cadence, good form – lock into "the zone" if i can. then the last km, i’ll run with the kind of speed that keeps me puffing hard consistently and i’ll feel some screaming from the muscles…. i can handle that for less than 5 minutes. and if i have a finishing kick left in me, i’ll sprint the last 100m or so to the finish line. fall over, pass out, vomit, etc… oops, no i don’t really do that stuff. At the other end of my race experience is the 1/2 marathon. If I’ve distilled the wisdom from books, the ‘net and talking to other runners correctly, 1/2 pace should be faster than one’s everyday – "I’ll run 6 miles steady" – pace. In fact for a slug like me, it appears it should be a good minute or more faster than my everyday pace. Trouble is, this hurts. Not as much as 5k pace but it’s hard. methinks you’re pushing too hard, too soon in a race that long. conserve energy so you’re not dying out there. do your everyday pace for the first half… you’ll think you are doing that, but the excitement of the race will have you going just a bit faster. up the tempo a bit around halfway. see what you have left in the final few km’s and kick it up if you have something to spare. I don’t want to run 13.1 miles feeling like this and in fact, I never have. I fell apart in the last one when I tried to go hard in the first half and in the previous two, although I reduced my PB by 5 minutes each time, I took it very easy until over half way, not much over everyday pace then speeded up my nearly a minute per mile. If I had that much in me I should have gone out faster but I think I’m too much of a wuss to hack it. then find that comfortable zone where you can handle it for the whole race, if you’d rather maintain the same speed throughout. So, how is it for you guys? Is what really separates a runner from a jogger the mental strength to suffer for hours at a time or is say, a marathon, actually not that bad for the first stages? Charlie, my one and only marathon felt a lot like my other shorter races up until around halfway. then i had to work for a while with pain management while running. then the wall. then the walk. mental strength? yeah, i guess you’d call it that. i already bought the shirt… i was damn well gonna wear it! keep at it, Cam

Response:

After a couple of races in which I turned in performances below  expectations I’ve been wondering if I was really not capable of achieving the times I wanted or just slowing up because I was a wuss when it started to hurt. Consequently, I’m interested in finding out – if it’s possible – what  races feel like to other people

Short races hurt more.  I try to judge my pace by my breathing as this is what always feels like the limit on my performance (I don’t really run short distance- min 4K), so for a 5K I would push my pace until I reach a state of shortness of breath that I think I can maintain till the end of the race.  AT the end of the race you just pull out whatever’s left and try to speed up.  It helps to have someone try to pass you at this point, but this can be hard to organise consistently  Of course you can only find out what pace you can maintain by experience.  That advice  to try short races and find your limits sounds pretty good.  For a longer race (like 25K trail race with a total climb of 1200 metres, www.otagomountainrunning.vze.com) I want to be running slightly above a comfortable pace.  Again this is relative.

Response:

A couple of thoughts … If it doesn’t hurt, you’re probably not racing. If you don’t feel like quitting, you’re probably not racing.

I generally agree but I have never felt like quitting any race from 5k to marathon and yet I throw up at the end of every race from 10k on down.  I know a hard race is going to hurt but they never make me want to quit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now for something a little more concrete … 10-mile race pace should be about at your lactate threshold. A HRM can help you determine your threshold pace. -Keith

Response:

        A couple of thoughts … If it doesn’t hurt, you’re probably         not racing. If you don’t feel like quitting, you’re probably         not racing.         Now for something a little more concrete … 10-mile race         pace should be about at your lactate threshold. A HRM can         help you determine your threshold pace.         -Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After a couple of races in which I turned in performances below expectations I’ve been wondering if I was really not capable of achieving the times I wanted or just slowing up because I was a wuss when it started to hurt. Consequently, I’m interested in finding out – if it’s possible – what races feel like to other people. Take the 5k, the shortest distance I’ve tried. For me, this hurts soon after the start but I know it won’t last too long (around 23-25 minutes for me) which helps. (I’ve also been helped by every race so far being well on PB schedule by 3km – something to take my mind off the pain). I can stand on the start and think ‘Yes, I can survive the pain.’ At the other end of my race experience is the 1/2 marathon. If I’ve distilled the wisdom from books, the ‘net and talking to other runners correctly, 1/2 pace should be faster than one’s everyday – "I’ll run 6 miles steady" – pace. In fact for a slug like me, it appears it should be a good minute or more faster than my everyday pace. Trouble is, this hurts. Not as much as 5k pace but it’s hard. I don’t want to run 13.1 miles feeling like this and in fact, I never have. I fell apart in the last one when I tried to go hard in the first half and in the previous two, although I reduced my PB by 5 minutes each time, I took it very easy until over half way, not much over everyday pace then speeded up my nearly a minute per mile. If I had that much in me I should have gone out faster but I think I’m too much of a wuss to hack it. So, how is it for you guys? Is what really separates a runner from a jogger the mental strength to suffer for hours at a time or is say, a marathon, actually not that bad for the first stages? Charlie

– Keith Gemeinhart Technology Service Corp. Sebring, FL —

Response:

It sounds like you might be starting out too fast during your races.  You should be trying to get splits during the race and if you’re slowing down too much, then you’re definitely going out too fast. For me it doesn’t start to hurt until about 2/3 through the race.  That’s when I start thinking "Why am I doing this. This hurts too much."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After a couple of races in which I turned in performances below expectations I’ve been wondering if I was really not capable of achieving the times I wanted or just slowing up because I was a wuss when it started to hurt. Consequently, I’m interested in finding out – if it’s possible – what races feel like to other people. Take the 5k, the shortest distance I’ve tried. For me, this hurts soon after the start but I know it won’t last too long (around 23-25 minutes for me) which helps. (I’ve also been helped by every race so far being well on PB schedule by 3km – something to take my mind off the pain). I can stand on the start and think ‘Yes, I can survive the pain.’ At the other end of my race experience is the 1/2 marathon. If I’ve distilled the wisdom from books, the ‘net and talking to other runners correctly, 1/2 pace should be faster than one’s everyday – "I’ll run 6 miles steady" – pace. In fact for a slug like me, it appears it should be a good minute or more faster than my everyday pace. Trouble is, this hurts. Not as much as 5k pace but it’s hard. I don’t want to run 13.1 miles feeling like this and in fact, I never have. I fell apart in the last one when I tried to go hard in the first half and in the previous two, although I reduced my PB by 5 minutes each time, I took it very easy until over half way, not much over everyday pace then speeded up my nearly a minute per mile. If I had that much in me I should have gone out faster but I think I’m too much of a wuss to hack it. So, how is it for you guys? Is what really separates a runner from a jogger the mental strength to suffer for hours at a time or is say, a marathon, actually not that bad for the first stages? Charlie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After a couple of races in which I turned in performances below expectations I’ve been wondering if I was really not capable of achieving the times I wanted or just slowing up because I was a wuss when it started to hurt. Consequently, I’m interested in finding out – if it’s possible – what races feel like to other people. Take the 5k, the shortest distance I’ve tried. For me, this hurts soon after the start but I know it won’t last too long (around 23-25 minutes for me) which helps. (I’ve also been helped by every race so far being well on PB schedule by 3km – something to take my mind off the pain). I can stand on the start and think ‘Yes, I can survive the pain.’ At the other end of my race experience is the 1/2 marathon. If I’ve distilled the wisdom from books, the ‘net and talking to other runners correctly, 1/2 pace should be faster than one’s everyday – "I’ll run 6 miles steady" – pace. In fact for a slug like me, it appears it should be a good minute or more faster than my everyday pace. Trouble is, this hurts. Not as much as 5k pace but it’s hard. I don’t want to run 13.1 miles feeling like this and in fact, I never have. I fell apart in the last one when I tried to go hard in the first half and in the previous two, although I reduced my PB by 5 minutes each time, I took it very easy until over half way, not much over everyday pace then speeded up my nearly a minute per mile. If I had that much in me I should have gone out faster but I think I’m too much of a wuss to hack it. So, how is it for you guys? Is what really separates a runner from a jogger the mental strength to suffer for hours at a time or is say, a marathon, actually not that bad for the first stages? Charlie

For me, it seems like every race I do, be it a 5/10 k run or sub-olympic distance triathlon, I seem to have a moment of doubt/panic several minutes after the start when my heart rate has shot up too high and I’m breathing too hard.  The way I usually deal with this is to ease off just a little but keep moving at a reasonable pace.  I have found that with experience and training, the middle miles of the race get a bit easier even though I’m going faster.  The only time I’m really maxed out physically is when I’m approaching the finish line. For a 5k, the last 800 M or so is the hardest part for me.  For a triathlon, pacing is a little more tricky, since you must save some energy for the next event while keeping in mind that you’ll be using different muscles.  Only in the last event, which is almost always the run, can you go all-out.

Response:

what races feel like to other people.

Like when you’re puking so hard you don’t think you’ll be able to grab another breath before you choke, but you know if you do you’ll inhale your puke and die, just like that but for several hours non stop. Bill R.

Response:

After a couple of races in which I turned in performances below expectations I’ve been wondering if I was really not capable of achieving the times I wanted or just slowing up because I was a wuss when it started to hurt. Consequently, I’m interested in finding out – if it’s possible – what races feel like to other people. Take the 5k, the shortest distance I’ve tried. For me, this hurts soon after the start but I know it won’t last too long (around 23-25 minutes for me) which helps. (I’ve also been helped by every race so far being well on PB schedule by 3km – something to take my mind off the pain). I can stand on the start and think ‘Yes, I can survive the pain.’

in all of my races – any distance – i think *negative splits*. i want to make sure i have the steam to finish the race well. not draggin’ my arse. so after the first km goes by too quickly and i settle down (like everyone else), i click into my comfortable pace mode and hold that til about halfway. then i’ll up that a couple of notches so that i’m breathing a little harder and maintain that. then within the last few km’s, if i’m feeling good, i’ll pick up the pace even more, to the point that i’m puffing a bit with each exhale. arms pumping, faster cadence, good form – lock into "the zone" if i can. then the last km, i’ll run with the kind of speed that keeps me puffing hard consistently and i’ll feel some screaming from the muscles…. i can handle that for less than 5 minutes. and if i have a finishing kick left in me, i’ll sprint the last 100m or so to the finish line. fall over, pass out, vomit, etc… oops, no i don’t really do that stuff. At the other end of my race experience is the 1/2 marathon. If I’ve distilled the wisdom from books, the ‘net and talking to other runners correctly, 1/2 pace should be faster than one’s everyday – "I’ll run 6 miles steady" – pace. In fact for a slug like me, it appears it should be a good minute or more faster than my everyday pace. Trouble is, this hurts. Not as much as 5k pace but it’s hard.

methinks you’re pushing too hard, too soon in a race that long. conserve energy so you’re not dying out there. do your everyday pace for the first half… you’ll think you are doing that, but the excitement of the race will have you going just a bit faster. up the tempo a bit around halfway. see what you have left in the final few km’s and kick it up if you have something to spare. I don’t want to run 13.1 miles feeling like this and in fact, I never have. I fell apart in the last one when I tried to go hard in the first half and in the previous two, although I reduced my PB by 5 minutes each time, I took it very easy until over half way, not much over everyday pace then speeded up my nearly a minute per mile. If I had that much in me I should have gone out faster but I think I’m too much of a wuss to hack it.

then find that comfortable zone where you can handle it for the whole race, if you’d rather maintain the same speed throughout. So, how is it for you guys? Is what really separates a runner from a jogger the mental strength to suffer for hours at a time or is say, a marathon, actually not that bad for the first stages?

Charlie, my one and only marathon felt a lot like my other shorter races up until around halfway. then i had to work for a while with pain management while running. then the wall. then the walk. mental strength? yeah, i guess you’d call it that. i already bought the shirt… i was damn well gonna wear it! keep at it, Cam

Response:

After a couple of races in which I turned in performances below expectations I’ve been wondering if I was really not capable of achieving the times I wanted or just slowing up because I was a wuss when it started to hurt. Consequently, I’m interested in finding out – if it’s possible – what races feel like to other people. Take the 5k, the shortest distance I’ve tried. For me, this hurts soon after the start but I know it won’t last too long (around 23-25 minutes for me) which helps. (I’ve also been helped by every race so far being well on PB schedule by 3km – something to take my mind off the pain). I can stand on the start and think ‘Yes, I can survive the pain.’ At the other end of my race experience is the 1/2 marathon. If I’ve distilled the wisdom from books, the ‘net and talking to other runners correctly, 1/2 pace should be faster than one’s everyday – "I’ll run 6 miles steady" – pace. In fact for a slug like me, it appears it should be a good minute or more faster than my everyday pace. Trouble is, this hurts. Not as much as 5k pace but it’s hard. I don’t want to run 13.1 miles feeling like this and in fact, I never have. I fell apart in the last one when I tried to go hard in the first half and in the previous two, although I reduced my PB by 5 minutes each time, I took it very easy until over half way, not much over everyday pace then speeded up my nearly a minute per mile. If I had that much in me I should have gone out faster but I think I’m too much of a wuss to hack it. So, how is it for you guys? Is what really separates a runner from a jogger the mental strength to suffer for hours at a time or is say, a marathon, actually not that bad for the first stages? Charlie

Response:

After a couple of races in which I turned in performances below expectations I’ve been wondering if I was really not capable of achieving the times I wanted or just slowing up because I was a wuss when it started to hurt. Consequently, I’m interested in finding out – if it’s possible – what races feel like to other people.

In my experience pain is inversely proportionate to the race distance.  So a 400m race while very short has the most intense pain.  A Marathon is virtually pain free, till about mile 22. If you want to get better at these races I think it is useful to race shorter track races, to experiment with your limits.  I mean a race not workouts, find some developmental open meets and race.  It is easier to find your limits in these races since there is not as much at risk.  At the worst you’ll go out too fast blow up and have to jog the last 800m, were you to try this in a half-marathon, you’d be in serious trouble at mile 3. I suspect you’ll find that you have a higher limit than you expect.  When you can race a mile and judge your effort in the one mile so perfectly that you nearly pass out when you cross the finish line (litterally), then you’re ready to move on to the 3000 and then the 5000.  When you get use to seeing the pain, less as intense discomfort, and more as information as to how hard you’re working, you’ll start to get the hang of it.

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Question:

Never run this, but spent 3 years living 2.5 hrs away in Hilo. Elevation in Kona will be pretty small.  If you run on the highway, it is not more than 100 ft above sea-level.  (I’ll check the webstie to get the course route.) Temperature…mid80-90’s air temp.  Add about 20 degrees given that you will be running on black pavement. Take a look at some Ironman footage to get an idea. Jason – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Kona Marathon website doesn’t give elevations or temperatures (at least not that I’ve found). Anyone ever run it and have some comments on it? Thanks. — Rob I’m running for my life! Rome/////Kona Marathon to raise money for the ADA

Response:

To the original poster:  you might want to go over to rec.sports.triathlon and ask the question, since this race is run on the same course as the marathon at Ironman Hawaii.  Expect heat, humidity and a hillier course than you would expect.  And as someone else already wrote, be thankful you’re not warming up for it with a swim and bike….;) Mike C

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….ooops, it’s rec.sport.triathlon…. Mike C

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….ooops, it’s rec.sport.triathlon….

I’ll check it out. Thanks for the information. I’ve watched the Ironman several times, and I remember thinking the run was bad enough. Y’know, I was beating myself up for switching to the Kona marathon from the Rome marathon (there’s a thread over in misc.health.diabetes about why), wondering if I was chickening out by going for the race at the later date. Coward – no. Stupid – maybe. Hey, if I live through this, I’ll have bragging rights. — Rob I’m running for my life! Running the Kona Marathon to raise money for the American Diabetes Association

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If you think that was tough, try doing it after a 2.4 mile swim and 112 miles on the bike.  Then, you will see some poor bastards.  I’ve been one of them!

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It will be our first marathon. Anyone ever run it and have some comments on it?

Kona will be my second marathon. I plan on running Pittsburgh as a workout. Pittsburgh has the Heinz Pacer team, and I’m thinking of hanging with the 5 hour group. The lack of spectators doesn’t bother me. Calls of "looking good" merely make me think "I look THAT bad?" I’m the one all the spectators warn the runner in front of me about: "He’s right behind you, you can hold him off!" Gee thanks, folks. It’s bad enough to hear "Pretty good for an old fat guy" during a 12 mile workout. The heat and hills worry me the most. Unlike a lot of runners, I love downhills – always have. It’s the uphills that kill me. — Rob I’m running for my life! Running the Kona Marathon to raise money for the ADA

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An unsubstantiated rumor–later that week, my wife and I ran into a physician from the E.R. of the Kona hospital and he said that the race was really (in his opinion) unprepared to deal with the heat-related problems of so many people in the race.

I’m spoiled by the wonderful job the City of Pittsburgh Paramedics, Police, and Amateur Radio operators do. I really should post about what it’s like in a race from that side of things. It was a Team-in-Training event

Ok, dumb question of the week – what’s this? — Rob I’m running for my life! Kona Marathon to raise money for the ADA

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The Kona Marathon website doesn’t give elevations or temperatures (at least not that I’ve found). Anyone ever run it and have some comments on it? Thanks. — Rob I’m running for my life! Rome/////Kona Marathon to raise money for the ADA

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My wife and I are thinking about doing Kona as well.  It will be our first marathon.  Go to the following site for some reviews, which to be honest, have left us somewhat hesitant about participating in this one (running on a highway shoulder for a good portion of the run and the lack of spectators). I’d be interested in others’ comments on this run. http://www.marathonguide.com/races/racedetails.cfm?MIDD=520010624 – Greg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Kona Marathon website doesn’t give elevations or temperatures (at least not that I’ve found). Anyone ever run it and have some comments on it? Thanks. — Rob I’m running for my life! Rome/////Kona Marathon to raise money for the ADA

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I ran the Kona 1/2 marathon last June.  I had run a marathon (my first) the first week in May and felt it was too close to do another one. I thought it was a very nice event (there is a full and half marathon plus a 5 and 10-K), but the full marathon course is BRUTAL!  I had a wonderful run, finishing in 1:47.  I had a nice massage, lots of fruit, soaked up a bunch of Aloha spirit, had some good Kona coffee, then about an hour after I finished I set out to return to my Kohala hotel.  And there on the highway, I saw them…the poor bastards who still had 10-15 miles to go in the full heat of the day on a rocky, dry Godforsaken stretch of highway.  The half marathon is an out-and-back down Alii Drive.  The course is really nice RIGHT UP UNTIL THAT POINT.  Then it’s out into the lava fields for the next 13 miles.  Bottom line–even though I ended up running the half by default and had felt bad about missing the full, that was by far the best way to do it.  Don’t miss the race, because it is very pleasant, but unless you have a real Jones to do a marathon at that point, stick with the half (or the 5 or 10K). An unsubstantiated rumor–later that week, my wife and I ran into a physician from the E.R. of the Kona hospital and he said that the race was really (in his opinion) unprepared to deal with the heat-related problems of so many people in the race.  It was a Team-in-Training event, so had a number of relatively inexperienced runners and also had a much bigger turnout than the previous years.  He said he had not been informed that the race was even happening, which was a real oversight since it limited the hospital’s ability to deal with the crush of heat-damaged runners.  He also felt that the on-course medical help was insufficient.  Now, these are problems that could very well have been due to the exponential growth of the race and perhaps the race director will deal with them better this year. Just reporting what this M.D. told me.  Again, my experience with the race: course, organization, etc. was very positive. Kevin Barry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Kona Marathon website doesn’t give elevations or temperatures (at least not that I’ve found). Anyone ever run it and have some comments on it? Thanks. — Rob I’m running for my life! Rome/////Kona Marathon to raise money for the ADA

Response:

Hi all, I am running in the Kona Marathon on June 25th. I have a course map, but I am not sure of the difficulty(hills, etc.) I could only venture to guess that it is going to be hot. I’ve never been to Hawaii before, so I am not sure of the terrain. The guys on the Ironman make it look to easy…so that is no help. Is there any way to judge the difficulty of each marathon? I just completed the Long Islang Marathon on May 7 and did not think it was particularly hilly, since I did most of my training in Central Park. But it was 90+ degrees and run on the all concrete Wantagh Parkway. Thanks for any help. Tim Before you buy.

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Is the Kona Marathon on the same course as the Ironman?  If it is then it is pretty hilly, the hills are all gradual or rolling.  The first hill on the Ironman course is a killer though.  It is also hot, the air temps won’t be too bad, but the lava fields reflect heat so it feels like an oven. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am running in the Kona Marathon on June 25th. I have a course map, but I am not sure of the difficulty(hills, etc.) I could only venture to guess that it is going to be hot. I’ve never been to Hawaii before, so I am not sure of the terrain. The guys on the Ironman make it look to easy…so that is no help. Is there any way to judge the difficulty of each marathon? I just completed the Long Islang Marathon on May 7 and did not think it was particularly hilly, since I did most of my training in Central Park. But it was 90+ degrees and run on the all concrete Wantagh Parkway. Thanks for any help. Tim Before you buy.

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Question:

I believe the ideal height and weight to be 6′3" and 230lbs. At least this week.   YMMV. Mike

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I believe the ideal height and weight to be 6′3" and 230lbs. At least this week.   YMMV. Mike

How about 6′6" and 195? Seriously though, weights, muscle contents etc will vary through even a single season.  Since I made tri my second sport (I’m now rowing nearly full time), I’ve put on about 15lbs, grown an inch and a half (at 21), and am running three minutes slower over 5k. Part of this is due to the fact that I only run in races (I jest not at all), but the increased mass helps on the bike and swim (and I can still outsprint everyone else over the last 500). Message from this:  DON’T WORRY.  If you train the right way and eat sensibly (everything in sight), your body will equalise at a   certain weight which is specific for a certain time. Al — Before you buy.

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Don’t worry about it. I know some really fast 5′5" guys who run blazing fast times, but I also know 6′4" guys who turn in similar overall triathlon times simply due to the swim and bike portions. Also, you’re going to be growing for another 3-5 years, in addition to adding muscle to your body through natural growth. Just don’t stress it too much, don’t go crazy in the weight room, and eat a "balanced" diet. The major thing about this sport is adapting to the training loads, and it normally will take you a few years before you can take the volume of the "elite" racers.

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There must be little doubt that in any race where you have to carry your body over a distance under its own steam in the least time possible, any excess baggage would be slowing you down (read body fat)?  And there is no doubt that some of the pros are light, in metric 180cm tall and ~65kg.  Having said that it appears that body fat levels are very individual.  I agree with the advice below – train and eat (no crap) to race at your optimum, your body shape will follow. For those who know him Miles Stewart (no offence), he looks to be tad on the porky side when you see him next to some of the whippets going around, but he manages to kick their ass and has to be one of the favourites for the gold medal at the Olympics! Can’t argue with that. cheers, Jason – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alex, Don’t get all wrapped up in weight questions. When you start training for whatever distance races you choose, your body will adjust to the workout. After a season or two you’ll have a better idea of what kind of work you need to do to improve. The other factor here is that at you age, there’s a very good chance that the height and weight you’re working with will change, possibly dramatically. Whatever you do, don’t go crazy with diets or weight gain plans. Just train the body you have for some races and fine tune from there. Tom "I got 4 inches taller in two years at about that age" Henderson I am a young triathlete. 15yo and was wondering wha kinds of weight the elite triathletes are and how tall they are. thanks alex

Before you buy.

Response:

Alex, Don’t get all wrapped up in weight questions. When you start training for whatever distance races you choose, your body will adjust to the workout. After a season or two you’ll have a better idea of what kind of work you need to do to improve. The other factor here is that at you age, there’s a very good chance that the height and weight you’re working with will change, possibly dramatically. Whatever you do, don’t go crazy with diets or weight gain plans. Just train the body you have for some races and fine tune from there. Tom "I got 4 inches taller in two years at about that age" Henderson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a young triathlete. 15yo and was wondering wha kinds of weight the elite triathletes are and how tall they are. thanks alex

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Question:

With all due respect to Oleg, if you’re not able to get your heart rate up by cycling, you’re not cycling correctly.  Try maintaining a pedaling cadence of 90-100 rpm as you work through the gears on a decent bike and watch as your heart rate climbs.

Well, with all due respect… It’s been pretty well demonstrated that most people can’t achieve as high a heart rate on a bike as they can running. This leads to the interesting phenomena of having a measured MHR on a bike lower than your measured MHR while running. This isn’t to say that you can’t get it up there, in the mountains, for example. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

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I am not a physiologist and I don’t no the reasons for it, but every book or article I have ever read states that you would most likely have different anaerobic thresholds and VO2 Max measures for different endurance activities.  I don’t recall there being any difference in Max heart rate if the tests are done correctly; in fact, I’d be surprised to see different max heart rates between sports.  Perceived exertion is another matter… — Tom I. St. Paul, Minnesota – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I have been using a heart rate monitor for several years now.  I determine my aerobic max hr by subtracting 40 bpm from my max heart rate.  I was wondering if my aerobic training zones for running, swimming and biking should be the same?  I feel like my running aerobic zone should be higher than my biking aerobic zone.  Any response will be appreciated. Thanks alot! Doug

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Since I have probably done ~500 max tests in the past 4 years, I can say that in general the following occur: 1)  A trained cyclist but untrained runner who does a treadmill ™ test might have an equal max HR on both a bike and a tm.  This, I theorize, is due to increased muscle use and having to support the body weight on the tm. 2)  A trained runner but untrained cyclist who does a bike max test will most likely have a lower max HR on the bike than on the run.  This could be due to local fatigue setting (the legs get tired before the heart/lungs give in) and also having not to support body weight on the bike 3)  A trained triathlete will have a tendency to have MaxHR that are pretty close to another. YMMV

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not a physiologist and I don’t no the reasons for it, but every book or article I have ever read states that you would most likely have different anaerobic thresholds and VO2 Max measures for different endurance activities.  I don’t recall there being any difference in Max heart rate if the tests are done correctly; in fact, I’d be surprised to see different max heart rates between sports.  Perceived exertion is another matter… — Tom I. St. Paul, Minnesota Hello everyone, I have been using a heart rate monitor for several years now.  I determine my aerobic max hr by subtracting 40 bpm from my max heart rate.  I was wondering if my aerobic training zones for running, swimming and biking should be the same?  I feel like my running aerobic zone should be higher than my biking aerobic zone.  Any response will be appreciated. Thanks alot! Doug

Response:

With all due respect to Oleg, if you’re not able to get your heart rate up by cycling, you’re not cycling correctly.  Try maintaining a pedaling cadence of 90-100 rpm as you work through the gears on a decent bike and watch as your heart rate climbs.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I have been using a heart rate monitor for several years now.  I determine my aerobic max hr by subtracting 40 bpm from my max heart rate.  I was wondering if my aerobic training zones for running, swimming and biking should be the same?  I feel like my running aerobic zone should be higher than my biking aerobic zone.  Any response will be appreciated. Thanks alot! Doug As far as cardiovascular system is concerned, your heart has no idea if the rest of your body is biking, running, if your favorite team is losing or you are

falling in love from the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – first sight. It’s a lot more difficult to get your heart rate up by biking than it is by running, that’s why it feels different. Being physically tired and having your heart rate going up is often two different things. —  Oleg

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Hello everyone, I have been using a heart rate monitor for several years now.  I determine my aerobic max hr by subtracting 40 bpm from my max heart rate.  I was wondering if my aerobic training zones for running, swimming and biking should be the same?  I feel like my running aerobic zone should be higher than my biking aerobic zone.  Any response will be appreciated. Thanks alot! Doug

As far as cardiovascular system is concerned, your heart has no idea if the rest of your body is biking, running, if your favorite team is losing or you are falling in love from the first sight. It’s a lot more difficult to get your heart rate up by biking than it is by running, that’s why it feels different. Being physically tired and having your heart rate going up is often two different things. —  Oleg

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Unless you are well trained in all 3 disciplines it is unlikely that your max HR would be the same for all 3;  thus the aerobic zone would be different.  Cycling and swimming would most likely be lower due to your not having to support body weight in either case and in the case of swimming the prone position reduces stress on the heart and increases pre-load on the heart. Another question is how did you determine your max HR?  If you used one of the myriad of formulae to estimate, the odds are that it is off by a few beats at the least.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I have been using a heart rate monitor for several years now.  I determine my aerobic max hr by subtracting 40 bpm from my max heart rate.  I was wondering if my aerobic training zones for running, swimming and biking should be the same?  I feel like my running aerobic zone should be higher than my biking aerobic zone.  Any response will be appreciated. Thanks alot! Doug

Response:

Hello everyone, I have been using a heart rate monitor for several years now.  I determine my aerobic max hr by subtracting 40 bpm from my max heart rate.  I was wondering if my aerobic training zones for running, swimming and biking should be the same?  I feel like my running aerobic zone should be higher than my biking aerobic zone.  Any response will be appreciated. Thanks alot! Doug

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Question:

David: Welcome and thanks for the report; I really enjoyed it. Those of us who hold up the back of the pack depend on journalism to have some idea what it’s like to be a contender. Your report really brought it across. David Survivor, N.A. 1/2 Century (1949-1999, northwest Canada to southeast U.S.) Triathlete of no repute Draft buster (Cat. 3) looking for work   A week or two ago someone mentioned race reports were the traditional method of introduction on the ng.  Hence I shall formally introduce myself with a thrilling (as compared to saying what actually happened) account of the last tri of my season two weeks ago.

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David Bowden

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  Aw cripes David S (blushing), your describing me as a contender has given me a new resolve to win some tri’s next season (rather than just running) and dedicate it to you. David: Welcome and thanks for the report; I really enjoyed it. Those of us who hold up the back of the pack depend on journalism to have some idea what it’s like to be a contender. Your report really brought it across. David Survivor, N.A. 1/2 Century (1949-1999, northwest Canada to southeast U.S.) Triathlete of no repute Draft buster (Cat. 3) looking for work

 David Bowden  Survivor 0.18 Century, Auckland, NZ  Whether or not  I am a Triathlete of repute depends on who you talk to.  We need more draftbusters in NZ, perhaps you’ll consider relocating.  Best result: all the ones I got money from (too few).

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  A week or two ago someone mentioned race reports were the traditional method of introduction on the ng.  Hence I shall formally introduce myself with a thrilling (as compared to saying what actually happened) account of the last tri of my season two weeks ago. Race 6: Roadhouse Bar and Diner Triathlon Series Maraetai Beach, Auckland,  New Zealand.   Beautiful day – gentle winds, no clouds, water smooth,  positive start to day.  Parents let me use the car, drive out late, race doesn’t start till 10am.  Get a good transition spot, end up wandering around talking to anyone I see and just generally fluffing around – whose idea was it – starting this late?   Sadly new wetsuit hasn’t arrived yet but my trusty sheath is duly put on with liberal smearings of canola oil (cheaper,more slimy, less damaging than baby oil).  Usual banter on start line, bit of jostling, people tend to give me a little more space and I’m happily in the front row. The Swim: 500m   Box course Sprint madly  at start (I think you’d call it youthful exuberence, or just stupidity). coming up to first bouy and I’m still on the toes of 1996 junior B world champ and ITU rookie Nathan Richmond, he is a ~16.30 1500m swimmer  so I’m feeling pretty pleased with myself – maybe I’ll come out somewhere near him today since he’s wetsuitless.  Unfortunately got some water in goggles at start and can’t  see him after rounding the buoy. Very short leg to the next one before heading back to the Orca swim exit.  2 or 3 people pass me on the way back so I exit the water in 5th/6th time of 6.45 stoked with my performance so far.   Rip through transition the way I’ve practiced ever since my mother commented that I seemed to be slower than the other kids (I knew something was wrong when she noticed it).  Head onto bike preceded by: Hamish Carter (current ITU world series champion),  Nathan  Richmond and a former swimmer. The Bike : 21km  Advertised as 20 km. Out and back, starts mildly undulating along coast then heads inland for some more serious undulations. Supposedly non-drafting The misery begins, people immediately start riding away from me – this is bad.  Paul Leitch (former Olympic cyclist) passes me a few hundred metres down the road – a thousand curses upon whoever taught him to swim – I can live with him passing me although I keep him close for a while. Soon the road seems more congested as pairs (cheats) and singles (non-cheats) ride past me.  Ben Pulham (went to junior Du worlds, cramped up while in leading pack on bike) goes past motions for me to join paceline, I can’t , my legs have no power.    Fortunately the course starts getting hillier and I can irritate people who’ve just passed me on the flat by zipping past them up the hills (if someone has an explanation as to why; at 82kg and feeling weak legged, I can still thrash my roadmates up the hills (apart from telling me that triathletes suck on hills – I already know that) I’d like to hear it).  Coming up to turn I see Carter  and Richmond thrashing the bike like its an ITU drafting race, also realise just how few people were ahead of me at the start and how many are now – 2 large packs (no draftbusters).   Can’t make it to the pack just ahead but am able to see what’s going on behind me in the womens wave. Crawl back to the finish and hope that my running will be somewhere near its usual standard.  Lose 22 places. Another slick transition and I head onto The Run: 5km  Hilly course ,some offroad.   Just behind 2 guys I hadn’t been able to see on the bike, pass them quickly and head past the marina and onto the track (shells and sand). Running smoothly but without the usual power – still floating along when I leave the track and go past the house I lived in as a child.  Start to see people running the other way, Carter has cleared out.  Head up the hill to the turn, marshall calls out:"50cents for water"  so I steal 2 cups,  unfortunately my dinky Orca mesh cap stops the water from getting to my head (I know it doesn’t help).  Float back down the hill.  Soon I hear a pitter-patter,  WHAT? – Who could have caught me? I know  I’m not flying but I am a runner,  quickly turn around – oh – Alan Bunce – world class 5km runner (mid 13’s).  Run on his shoulder for a while seeing if I can un-nerve him by towering over him,  he starts to inch away on the flat bit,  however we turn onto "Alexanders wall"  and I start to claw my way back up to him taking short steps to conquer the hill ( hmm, maybe my father was right about this short steps thing, it worked on that other top runner last week).   Once over the hill I can’t get my legs to flow down the hill and Bunce escapes.  I pass the guy with club feet and go past the chap from my agegroup.  Last hill before finish – still running well,  turn down the chute – no need to sprint – but metres from the line I hear: " GO MATTHEW" – that’s not me and my most recently passed opponent whips by me to pip me by a second.  If only he’d come up earlier as I’ve not been outsprinted in a race.   Oh well,  19.19 is a reasonable run for that course a little quicker than training pace. Overall, superb swim for a runner turned triathlete (at 12). 2nd worst bike ever (don’t ask about #1). A moderate run. Lessons learnt:  Training makes a difference – I might try it sometime, especially if I want to win the U20 half ironman next year.  Short steps also make a difference – maybe I’ll listen to my dad in future.  Maybe I should stick to hilly courses in future despite my size and prediliction for sprinting – downhills should be my strength with 1.02m legs. 5th in 18-19 agegroup (by ONE second).  Carter puts 1.40 into Richmond on the run. At prizegiving they mention Gillian Walker – the blind lady -last out of water – not last after getting on her tandem – I saw her blitzing the bike, 3rd in her agegroup.   A lovely day and I enjoyed myself muchly.  Bring on the harrier season David Bowden

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Question:

I have an Arena wetsuit (long leg and sleeve) used 2 times. It is a women’s medium but seems to run real small. I got it from someone who won it and had it laying around because it was too small for him. I used it 2 years ago and it does not fit my hulking body anymore. If you want some more info, email me and we can figure out if it might fit. Perfect condition. $35 D.J. Mosiniak            (IRONKID) I would be willing to trade for any dura-ace tri bike– even up;-)

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Yea, I know—- $30 in subject.                 $35 in message. Maybe— $33.50—— if it fits, whatever you think is fair. D.J.  "not much of a salesman"   (IRONKID) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have an Arena wetsuit (long leg and sleeve) used 2 times. It is a women’s medium but seems to run real small. I got it from someone who won it and had it laying around because it was too small for him. I used it 2 years ago and it does not fit my hulking body anymore. If you want some more info, email me and we can figure out if it might fit. Perfect condition. $35 D.J. Mosiniak            (IRONKID) I would be willing to trade for any dura-ace tri bike– even up;-)

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 It is a women’s medium but seems to run real small. I got it from someone

 who won it and had it laying around because it was too small for him. Is it purple?  Does your friend wear a triangle on his head? Didn’t Jerry tell you not to watch that program anymore.  Go to your room.  Do not pass Go.  Do not take any Triathlete special "issues" with you.  Do not talk to Jason. Ruth Kazez

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Go to your room.  Do not pass Go.  Do not take any Triathlete special "issues" with you.  Do not talk to Jason. Ruth Kazez

Why Triathlete when Jason sent me Sports Illustrated;-) D.J.  "off skwool cause of snow and wanting to learn to paint" (IRONKID)

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"Why Triathlete when Jason sent me Sports Illustrated;-) D.J. "off skwool cause of snow and wanting to learn to paint" (IRONKID)" Obviously the SWIMSUIT EDITION, Does Your FATHER know JASON’s sending you this SMUT!!! Never mind go to your room, YOU deserve a Spanking, I’ll be sending one of those Swimsuit models with the fancy paint job over there with a paddle to straiten you out.  I hope this teaches you a lesson, Steve "The Right Wing Smut Smasher" Adams

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Question:

I’m a long time runner and want to make the transition to triathlons. I’ve done some work on my own, but due to the time and work intensive nature of triathlons, I could use a few people to talk to and train with for motivation. Does anyone know of Triathlon teams or clubs in the Los Angeles area? Thanks — Brett Peters

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certainly triathlete zombies/team Z is at hand, most of them being on the west  side, but several in the south bay area, too.  scaq is the big masters team  with about 6 pools, lots and lots of workouts every day.  where will you be  located? peggy

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You are welcome to come and join the Inland Inferno Triathlon club. We are  centered around the Covina/Diamond Bar area; and have a diverse mix of  Triathletes af all ages and abilities. You can check our web page for more  details. Mark Rinaldi Inland Inferno Triathlon Club http://members.aol.com/infernotri/home.htm

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Question:

Joy Leuttner won the Danskin San Jose Triathlon today, by 40 seconds (or so) over Lauren Alexander. Leuttner led by about 10 seconds out of the water, just under a minute coming off the bike, and just less than that at the end. A woman from Boulder was third, with Holly Nybo in fourth. I don’t want to scoop anyone’s post but suffice it to say that local favorite TriBaby was *well up* in the standings. The most interesting feature of the race was that all the pros were wearing full length wetsuits (water temp 70 degrees, air temp mid 80’s), while virtually none of the age group competitors were wearing wetsuits at all; quite the opposite from most triathlons. This year’s race had more than 1300 competitors (up from 900 last year) and was described by the announcer as the largest women’s triathlon ever held. — Steve Patt  Stevens Creek Software  The Athlete’s Diary & Bookstore  WWW: http://www.stevenscreek.com  FTP: ftp.stevenscreek.com  1-800-TA-DIARY

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   Hi, I’ve been lurking here for a while, so I finally decided to post something!!!  By the way, I also added myself to the RST directory.     Sorry if this is kina long, I get carried away with these tri things!    Danskin San Jose, my fourth tri,aka Sara doesn’t feel like a beginner anymore!! =)    June 30, another strangely hot San Jose day, following a week of bizarrely cold weather! Smog rating in the "unhealthful" zone. (Fortunately I didn’t read that until after the race!)    6:30 am, I get all my junk out of the car and begin the trek from the light rail station parking lot into Lake Almaden park.  This is good, I know what I’m doing this time since I was here for San Jose International a couple of weeks ago.  Get body mraked, and find my bike rack.      Wow, there are a lot of bike racks.  It turns out there are 1300 participants, the largest women’s tri ever!     Anyway, I set up all my stuff, and start checking out all of the transition entrances and exits.  I find Tricia (aka Tri-Baby) and Skippy, and hang out with them for a while.       Then I am into my wetsuit and headed for the lake to do a quick swim warm-up before the race starts.  The lake is warmer than it was a month age, and most people aren’t wearing wetsuits.  But I’m a wimp when it comes to cold water, and I like floating too!     So I don my beautiful neon orange swim cap (I’m in the second wave, wow, I like this all wonmen’s thing, I actually get to start at the front, so I don’t have to spend the enire race trailing in the back!)  Anyway, it’s into the lake for me, and I swim back and forth a bit.  The water feels good, it is already getting hot outside.    I little before 8 am they start the line up for the swim start.  The pro’s are the first wave, and us 20-24’s are the second.  All of us orange caps gather as the pro’s head into the water for their start.  listening to the talk around me, I start to feel like I might actually not be in the back for this race.  It sond to me like I actually have more experience than  alot of the other women!!    Anyway, at 8:05 we’re into the water and on our way for a 1/2 mile swim.  I start out on the side towards the back ’cause that’s where I always start.  But this time instead of other people passing over me, I am passing over people in front of me!!!!!  Pretty soon, a group breaks off in the front, and I am at the back of that group!  Since only the pro’s were in front of us, the swim isn’t too crowded.  Pretty soon I am scrambling up the beach, I check my watch, it’s just about 14 min since I started.      As I make my way through  the sand, I attempt to yank off my wetsuit and hit the lap button on my watch.  I am semi successful, I get out of my suit with not too much struggling, and I eventually do hit my lap button, so my splits aren’t exact, but at least there’s something!     I jog my way up to my bike, dust off my feet, jam on my socks and shoes, pull on my singlet with my number on it, put on my sunglasses and fasten on my helmit.  About 2 minutes after getting out of my wetsuit, I’m ready to go!!!     The transition area is huge, and we’re not allowed to ride in it, so I walk/jog my bike to the bike exit, and I’m off!  I spin it not oo hard at first so I can get myself adjusted, and I am already passing one person. I start to push it a bit harder, and i catch another biker.  Then it’s uphill!!!  I think I have gotten better at these uphill things in my 6 weeks since I got home from Houston, but I still have along way to go.       Yay, I’m at the top, now it’s only downhill or mostly flat for the rest of the course.  Wow, this downhill is pretty killer.  I seem to just keep accelerating.  Even behind my sunglasses, my eyes are starting to water from all the wind.  i don’t know if I have ever gone this fast before! (After the race i check my computer, and I hit 39 mph on that hill!)    On to a flat, slightly uphillish bit, then some more downhill and more flat.  A couple people pass me, some from the next wave, but I still pass another bike or two.  Just as I am heading back into the park, who should pass me, but Tri-Baby herself.  Ok, so she’s got 5 min on me now since she was in wave #3.    Transition two.  I have no idea how long this was since I didn’t get a chance to hit the buttons on my watch!!!  Park the bike and head out for the run.    Wow, only three miles and this race is over,  This sprint distance sure seems short after doing an international distance race a couple weeks ago!  Yikes, it’s getting hot out!! Luckily there is still some shade on the run trail, but not much.  Tricia comes up behind me and claims that I am going to whip her butt on this run.  No way, she just didn’t know exactly how slow I am when it comes to running.  I think I need alot more work on those track intervals.  I end up sticking it out about 5 seconds behind her, and I finsh the 5k in about 26:45.  Actually, for me that’s not bad. It’s the best pace I’ve done in a tri so far!    Total race time, 1:26:40 for 1/2 mile swim, 12.4 mile bike and 3.1 mile run.  And it feels good to be finishing before the majority of the race!    To top off a good weekend, I made a new biking PR on my way to work on monday, shaving 2:30 off my old best time.  And it’s also nice that when you’re teaching gymnastics it doesn’t really matter if you’re a little sweaty to begin with!    3 days till I’m off to summer school, and I don’t think I am going to have email there =( so I guess this will be my last post until I get back to my computer in August!    Happy 4th of July everyone!    Just for fun…        Training so far in 96         swim 78.5 miles, bike 1056 miles, run 279 miles    =) Sara Gilliland       Palo Alto/Menlo Park, CA

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Question:

: I would bet that the frenzy of the swim start at Nationals was several : orders of magnitude more intense than at the average race. The victim wasn’t in the Nationals portion of the race.  He was in the RELAY race. : This was the : National Championship race, no newbies there, and obviously the : competition was bound to be fierce from the moment the gun went off.  That : factor probably had more to do with John’s death than a serious problem : with swim starts at triathlons in general. Did anyone see this guy’s swim wave start?  Relays often do contain a fair number of newbies. : This race was *not* your : average hometown sprint tri (where most newbies start out). We had a sprint for newbies at Mrs. T’s, too.  As a matter of fact, that race was first!

Response:

I recently posted a message about avoiding the clobber in the swim.  I have done two sprint tri’s, and was well trained for each one.  I only swim the ocean, calm or rough.  I don’t express to be an expert , but I can hold my own.  Nothing you train for can make you ready for the open swim.  During my second tri I was continually clobbered for the whole 1k. I started on the outside but a few guys keprt swimming off course and nailing me.  My suggestion is that more then the perfunctory 10 min. before the race be given to the swim.  More detailed description of the rules, dangers and consequences should be provided, a warning would make things safer.  I hate reading about these deaths,   I don’t want to give up my newly learned sport and go back to road running and du’s.  Steve

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Gee I am one of those newbie’s.  I overcame rough surf on my first tri and clobbering on the second race(not to mention major road rash on wet road conditions) The AVERAGE guy would have quit by now.  I am not the average guy.  In fact I can’t wait for next spring.  However, when I posted a message about cl;obbering in the swim, I got mail from someone who not only told me he was a clobberer, but told me that the way to swim over people was to grab their shoulder and pull.  He also told me that his swim team practices open water swimming by starting a few guys in a lap pool and then the guy at the end has to climb over everybody.  This I believe is how the elite triathletes swim faster, and how All of the other midpackers and newbies risk bad and even fatal swims.  Remeber the growth of all sports is by bringing in new athletes and helping them learn the sport so it becomes popular.  -Steve

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Anybody know if the triathlete that drowned at Mrs. T’s was wearing a wetsuit?

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QRman, Thank you for your superb suggestions regarding the improvement of the swim portion of triathlon. I hope that people will read your note and conclude that safety takes precedence the quest for a plastic trophy and that we can do some things to improve the safety of our sport. Even if safety were not an issue, it is a pity that someone as talented as your wife must alter her swim course to avoid a some ruthless wise guys seeking a few seconds of fame.       Don Herron

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Tim, Your note of September 4 is very moving. I hope everyone will read it. If everyone was as sensible as you and had your compassion, safety in triathlons would be a matter of course. You and people like you, are honor to the sport of triathlon and to mankind in general. Don Herron

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[Gratuitous nod to regulation of behaviour deleted] [Unsupported conclusions snipped] Many of the suggestions, including yours, in reply to my original note are a positive step forward in attemting to remedy this problem. We simply need to encourage Tri-Fed and the race directors to further investigate this problem and expand upon the rules.

[Attempt at supporting balanced analysis self-negated] [Statement of rules snipped]=20 As triathletes, can we not at least expect that the present rules will be=

 enforced=20 Not yet, but if we can’t get it on the bikes, I doubt it’s going to happen=  in the swim. and that the laws of man supercede the laws of physics?

You’re kidding, right? If Tri-Fed would use it’s present rules and expand upon them under Article IV, Swim Conduct, in the same fashion as they have in regard to Cycling Conduct, then we might actually have the balance in the rules that we need.

Balance in the rules, sure. In reality? I doubt it. Maybe then the swim portion of the triathlon will "snap back in place" wi=

th the rules.          =20 Point is, I don’t think I’ve heard anyone complain to this extent until th= is incident. If the circumstances are not the problem, but this result is,=  then perhaps the entire system is not in need of overhaul. Maybe as you a= nd others have suggested, a close examination of the *actual circumstances= * of this incident, and any contributing factors might suffice. Kurian Davis

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<<Point is, I don’t think I’ve heard anyone complain to this extent until th= <<is incident. If the circumstances are not the problem, but this result is,= << then perhaps the entire system is not in need of overhaul. Maybe as you a= <<nd others have suggested, a close examination of the *actual circumstances= <<* of this incident, and any contributing factors might suffice. I’ve complained plenty about the problems associated with overeager swimmers during the start.  But I don’t think it’s an issue of rules, but of common decency.  We don’t need new rules, but some self-accountability.  When I think of the swim starts in our sport, I think of that film I saw way back in drivers ed,"Mr. Walker and Mr. Wheeler"  (a whimsical animation featuring Pluto), where the mild mannered guy gets behind the wheel and morphs into a crazed "motorist".  We have lots of really nice people in our sport who, once they enter a competetive situation, become their alter-ego.  I’m not speaking strictly about the swim start, but the ride and the run too. But I don’t think this is the good guys vs. the bad guys.   A lot of what I deplore I recognize in myself, especially during my younger days.  I am 38 now, and I started competing in triathlons when I was 22.  I don’t think I was much different in my 20’s than those on whom I now look with contempt.  And maybe I would be the same today if I had kept up my level of fitness.  I hope not.  My point is, no rule change is going to change people’s attitudes, but this incident might bring some sobriety (in a way no rule change would) to any of us who might be inclined to swim, ride or run, over or through a fellow competitor in order to temporarily move up one place in the standings. QRman

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1)  Anyone who expresses an opposing position to Don is a MORON. 2)  We need more rules.  More rules are the answer to everything. 3)  It’s al TriFed’s fault.  They don’t investigate, don’t make rules Don wants, and don’t care about safety. 4)  The race marshall’s don’t enforce the rules we have.  That’s the solution.  Get those dumb ass race marshalls to do their jobs. 5)  No one at TriFed has ever addressed, investigated, considered, listened to, experienced, or in any way been involved in safety issues, particularly on the swim.. Gosh, where have these stupid, stupid people been? REACTION FROM ME Hey Don!  Stop whining and: Run for the Board.  Become a marshall and enforce the rules. Volunteer to be on the Age Group Commission.  Become a race director and put on a triathlon.  Then when you gain some relevant experience, try  to recognize that you are not the only one who thinks, and those who have come to different conclusions are not morons.  In my opinion, the marshalls we have do a superior job, more rules are not the answer to safety problems on the swim,  triathlon is over-regulated now, and people like you calling others thinking moronic does infanitely more damage to the health of the sport than any rule could ever cure.  Grow up or shut up. Cooter

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Gosh.  Self-accountability.  Good idea.  Let’s start with people who spend all their time bitching about the efforts and contributions of hard working TriFed office, board, and commission members, but who never volunteer to be an official, don’t run for the board or volunteer to help at a race or on a commission, and spend all of their time on the internet talking as if they are the only ones in the world who given any thought to the weighty issues of triathlon.  Self-accountability! Great idea.  Let’s start by weeding out those who do nothing but bitch, and give nothing back to the sport except criticism. I have several candidates with whom we could start! Cooter

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A few years back I raced at the Farmers Branch Triathlon where a fellow triathlete drowned during the swim also.  It was his first triathlon and I understand he was well prepared.  There were plenty of safety marshalls. This year there was no swim at the Farmers Branch triathon.  This was one of the biggest races in theSMW region and Texas. All the new rules and complaining will not bring back a fellow triathlete or the great Farmers Branch Triathlon. –

Response:

Cooter, My, my, aren’t you sensitive. Sorry to offend you so. Noticed you did not sign your real name. Are you not really Paul Burton? You do have an interesting concept, do not be critical of Tri-Fed or ridiculous comments, unless you are on the board or a commision. Athletes should not be able to call an idea stupid or suggest change, that is the sole responsibility of the board and the commissions. (e.g. you referring to me). Sounds a little oppressive coming from a TRI-FED BOARD MEMBER. I guess the "Declaration of the Board" in the July/August Newsletter that they need to "recognize the need for the membership to have an open forum for input…" should be modified to say "no bitching from athletes allowed, keep you mouth shut or face expulsion." Is this the official policy of Tri-Fed or is it just your opinion? If it’s the later, maybe you should consider stepping aside. Is not the sum and subtance of your note really that Don is a moron? Is your note to me not like the pot calling the kettle black? It is a shame that the sport is so fragile that calling an idea moronic does so much damage to the sport. In light of that fact however, you really should change the rule book statement of "safety is the number one concern" to "our number one concern is to weed out those who bitch." I hope you are correct about not needing more rules, but less. If someone does get hurt and decides to file a lawsuit, you will make an impressive witness for Tri-Fed as you attempt to explain to a jury that the sport of triathlon is over-regulated, that people die solely as the result of the mortality rate, and that the athletes who asked that safety issues be further investigated were told to just "shut up or grow up." I wonder how that will effect the health of the sport? Why don’t you provide us with your list of candidates who need to be weeded out from the Tri-Fed organization so that we can consider resigning voluntarily? Maybe you could also provide us with a list of issues we are not allowed to disagree with so those out there who are just lurking can be made aware that they are not welcome either. Don Herron

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 All you hear ever about is growing the sport-

   What is the point of this sweeping generalization?  I "hear about" many other things everywhere     every day. well the people who quit triathlon after they get pummeled in the swim leg of  the first  triathlon they enter probably aren’t hanging out on rec.sport.triathlon waiting to express their opinion.

Anyone entering a triathlon has a *choice* of where to place themselves in their swim wave.  The world is an imperfect place, and triathlon swim starts are chaotic.  If you choose to participate in a tri, you are responsible for being aware of and dealing with all the potential risks—including mass swim starts.  Anybody who quits triathlon after their first race because they were "pummeled" in the swim (not through any other swimmer’s FAULT, mind you) probably doesn’t belong in the sport.   Now wait!!!  Before you overreact and accuse me of being arrogant or unsympathetic, think of it this way:  A guy enters his first bicycle race and is involved in a crash.  His response is to hang up the cleats and quit bike racing, and that’s OK, because he has been faced with one of the unpleasant realities of the sport AND MADE A CHOICE that it’s not for him.  Crashes are not infrequent in bike racing, and the only way to prevent them would be to eliminate pack riding altogether, which is ridiculous.  Therefore, anyone who chooses to race bicycles has to accept the risk of crashes.  It is his responsibility to learn bike handling and pack riding skills, not just for his own safety, but for that of everyone else in the peloton. Similarly, triathletes need to be aware of the risks of our sport and be prepared to deal with them.  It doesn’t take a heck of a lot of brains for even a total newbie to figure out that placing oneself in the front or middle of the swim pack is going to result in a bit of contact, some of it possibly rough.  Anyone with an IQ above 50 will realize that it would be a good idea to hang off the back or to the side at the swim start if they’re feeling at all uncertain about swimming with a pack. I would bet that the frenzy of the swim start at Nationals was several orders of magnitude more intense than at the average race.  This was the National Championship race, no newbies there, and obviously the competition was bound to be fierce from the moment the gun went off.  That factor probably had more to do with John’s death than a serious problem with swim starts at triathlons in general.  This race was *not* your average hometown sprint tri (where most newbies start out). They are not as stupid as the rest of us so now they are mountain bikers.

    So, all triathletes are stupid because we choose to accept and deal with the risks of our sport?      By the way, I also mountain bike. I also think some of these people that say that pummeling is part of the sport should pick on someone of equal size/swimming strength.

    I wish that you and Don would be more specific about these people to whom you are referring.  You     use the word "pummeling" in a way that implies intention.  Who has said that they go out and     *intentionally* pummel people in the swim start?  I have seen no such posts here.  I have only seen     posts expressing a rational observation that contact does occur in swim starts.  Shit happens.  Lets get a bunch a people who are bigger and stronger swimmers, put these pummelers right in the middle of them and let them go at it.  Then maybe they would get an idea of the feeling that a novice triathlete has when they get roughed up in their first race.

I agree wholeheartedly with you here, *IF* you can actually come up with some people who are intentional pummelers who enjoy making swim starts a free-for-all.   I also have to admit that I am biased;  I was at the race with Don (triat40) and the images of John’s family on  that day will haunt me forever.

Your anguish and concern are totally understandable.  I can imagine few experiences worse than witnessing the death of someone taking part in something that I myself do and love.  Please don’t misunderstand any of the people posting opposing views— I’m sure there isn’t a single one who doesn’t sympathize.  It’s easy to understand why you feel so strongly about this issue.  I would only ask that you don’t generalize and condemn other triathletes for what happened.  Yes, let’s make races as safe as possible, but let’s be rational, not emotional, about it. Tri Safe! Tri-Baby — "’Be a terrific innovation if you could get your mind to stretch a little further than the next wise crack." "Y’know, I tried that once, but it didn’t snap back into place." —Katharine Hepburn & Eve Arden in "Stage Door" (1937)    

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"May John rest in peace.  I did not know him yet I knew his spirit. It is within all of us that share swim bike and run.  In honor of his memory I will remember him at every swim start to remind myself of my responsibilities to my fellow competitors and the safety of our sport, during the race as well as after. " Very well said.   G.Wassil

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Some comments about pummeling: I’m slow, seed myself where I should reasonably be.  At Chicago about two thirds of the age group was in front of me.  We (50-54) started and nobody was kicking.  I didn’t kick until 100 feet because there were guys behind me. Don’t kick much in a wet suit anyhow.  Everybody was cool, they usually are, maybe different at the front. Keep this in mind about swimming over somebody.  You might be on top and brag about it later but consider the pummelee.  They are underneath you and are going to panic and do something out of fear.  Ask a lifeguard about this.  The pummeler is in as much danger as the pummelee and exposing a soft underbelly.  The person below might be in a life and death panic. Pummelling can happen anywhere on the course not just the start.  Relay teams and younger women (if they start in the next wave) pass me by the last turn in many races.  By that time I am swimming a good bouy line, so is their lead pack. At Muncie a lead pack made contact with me.  I could not see in the water beyond my elbow.  My immediate response was to kick out and separate myself from whatever it was.  It happened by reflex. The next instant I got control of myself and absorbed a few contacts before getting out of the way, knowing what was happening.  Much the same happened in the black, cold water of the Evergreen swim last year.  I apologize to the person I kicked, it was unintentional. This statement is not a suggestion as to what happened in Chicago (but might be read that way if I did not say it):  The postings talk about the danger of receiving pummeling.  The receiver might feel they are in a life and death situation and who is in danger then?  The better, faster more confident swimmer on the top swimmer on the top?  Something for those dishing it out to seriously consider. May John rest in peace.  I did not know him yet I knew his spirit. It is within all of us that share swim bike and run.  In honor of his memory I will remember him at every swim start to remind myself of my responsibilities to my fellow competitors and the safety of our sport, during the race as well as after.   Let’s work to make it better.

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After the official autopsy that ruled the death a drowning, the Chicago Sun-Times quoted a race medical guy as saying that the death was technically a drowning, but not a drowning as it’s usually understood. He said there were other medical factors involved that he couldn’t talk about because the family hadn’t given permission to let the information out.

Response:

<<Anyone entering a triathlon has a *choice* of where to place themselves in <<their swim wave.  The world is an imperfect place, and triathlon swim <<starts are chaotic.  If you choose to participate in a tri, you are <<responsible for being aware of and dealing with all the potential <<risks—including mass swim starts. I agree with you, but it is only with a certain amount of disgust and rage that I do.  I have seen my wife, who is 106 pounds, start near the front of major international triathlons and in front of 25,000 people at the L.A. Marathon.  Both are harrowing experiences for me to watch, because there are those in each race who will start near the front as well, and will begin the race at a pace much too fast for their level of fitness and, not being top-level athletes, put at risk those who are.  What happened in Chicago could happen at any decent sized race, and I wonder why it does not happen more in major triathlons and marathons.  My wife will not start Hawaii anywhere near the pier anymore, because of this. I do not know all the circumstances of the tragedy in Chicago, and I don’t know if the proximate cause of this drowning was the zeal of a fellow competitor.  However I have experienced, as has my wife, and as have many or most of you, the jerk who grabs you by the ankle, pulls you back, and then proceeds to swim over you.  I have been truly amazed and enraged at what happens to some athletes when the gun goes off.   I am not advocating any rule changes for the athletes.  But, in addition to taking a closer look at how course design might aid in preventing a recurrance of this, I hope our national magazines bring some level of shame to the practice of winning the swim start at all costs.  My guess is that there are a few people in that gentleman’s wave who are thinking back over their race, wondering if they were a little over-aggressive.  I wonder if anyone specifically remembers mauling anyone, and is wondering whether the one they mauled is this particular gentleman? Tricia is right, we all understand and take the risk when we toe the starting line.  But for every maulee there is a mauler, and I hope that the maulers of the world will take pause because of this, and decide whether their race start is as urgently important as all that. QRman

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For what it is worth:  All you hear ever about is growing the sport- well the people who quit triathlon after they get pummeled in the swim leg of  the first  triathlon they enter probably aren’t hanging out on rec.sport.triathlon waiting to express their opinion.   They are not as stupid as the rest of us so now they are mountain bikers. I also think some of these people that say that pummeling is part of the sport should pick on someone of equal size/swimming strength. Lets get a bunch a people who are bigger and stronger swimmers, put these pummelers right in the middle of them and let them go at it.  Then maybe they would get an idea of the feeling that a novice triathlete has when they get roughed up in their first race. I also have to admit that I am biased;  I was at the race with Don (triat40) and the images of John’s family on  that day will haunt me forever. Chris Carter

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It has now become apparent to me that self awareness will not solve this problem. Some people apparently actually believe that you should be able to pummel someone during the swim. If we have people with this type of attitude, I see no alternative but for Tri-Fed to regulate such behavior. Unquestionably, someone will get hurt and killed if we have those types of triathletes in our races. Don Herron

Has anyone actually expressed a desire to protect their "right" to pummel people in the swim?  Come on, Don, I really think you are going overboard on this.  I agree, it might be good for Tri Fed to investigate regulating wave sizes and swim courses.  However, I disagree that there are people who actively seek to beat people up on the swim.  Your sanctimonious, judgmental tone bothers me. The reality is that open water swims are chaotic by their very nature, not because anyone wants to be violent out there.  Contact is simply a result of laws of physics:  two bodies cannot occupy the same space at the same time!  You cannot tell me that a swimmer in the churning water of a mass start is even able to *see*, let alone *look for*, other bodies to clobber! Yes, the death at Mrs. T’s is a serious thing and certainly cause for investigation of safety measures; your sweeping judgment of large numbers of triathletes as violent fiends, however, is way over the top.  Your desire to make *any* contact between athletes in the water grounds for disqualification is impractical.  I’m merely voting for some circumspection here; extremes are never productive, but you do seem to be going to extremes on this issue.  Let’s have the sport be as safe as possible, yes, but let’s  be realistic about what’s happening out there in the water:  everyone’s just trying to do their own race. Advocating a balanced view of the issue— Tri-Baby — "’Be a terrific innovation if you could get your mind to stretch a little further than the next wise crack." "Y’know, I tried that once, but it didn’t snap back into place." —Katharine Hepburn & Eve Arden in "Stage Door" (1937)    

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Tricia, A few people have stated they see no problem with pummelling people. I find it hard to believe and hopefully no one would actually do that. I have now received reports of people "bragging" about pummelling people. I have been in over one hundred triathlons and it has never happened to me. The triathletes that I have come into contact with have been some of the nicest people I have ever met. That is why I remained in the sport. Be that as it may, as in society, we need to regulate those few who are not as sensitive and concerned as you. The description you give of a race start is accurrate and there lies the problem. If we can not "look for" or even "see" other triathletes so as not prevent clobbering them, then we have a problem. The swim is far too dangerous under such conditions as it takes very little to drown someone. Many of the suggestions, including yours, in reply to my original note are a positive step forward in attemting to remedy this problem. We simply need to encourage Tri-Fed and the race directors to further investigate this problem and expand upon the rules. I agree with you that we need a balanced view. If people think my views are extreme then so be it. If as the result of these views we then come to the proper balance and prevent the death or injury of even just one person, then we will have accomplished a great deal. From my standpoint, this is far more important than what type of energy bar we should consume. I finally found my Tri-Fed Rules. The scope of the rules is "to protect the health, safety, and well-being of participants." I am pleased to note that Rule 3.4(c) prohibits the intentional or accidental "blocking, charging, or interfering with the forward progress of another triathlete." Better yet, Rule 3.4(g) states that "no participant shall use his body, arms, or legs to gain an unfair advantage, or to push, pull, hold, strike or force through one or more participants. Any violation of this Section shall result in a one minute time penalty." Maybe if we could just get the race marshalls to enforce the rules that exist, then we could strike the balance we need. Have you ever seen a race marshal enforce these rules on the swim? In how many races is the race marshall even monitoring the swim? As triathletes, can we not at least expect that the present rules will be enforced and that the laws of man supercede the laws of physics? If Tri-Fed would use it’s present rules and expand upon them under Article IV, Swim Conduct, in the same fashion as they have in regard to Cycling Conduct, then we might actually have the balance in the rules that we need. Maybe then the swim portion of the triathlon will "snap back in place" with the rules.           Don Herron

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My deepest sympathy goes to the wife and children of John Mawdsley. May he rest in peace and the families be at peace as well. I can only hope he will not pass away in vain. Let’s not forget those who die before us. Was this his final purpose on earth? How many of us have thought about the danger in the swim, and how easy it would be to go down and not be missed until they take the bike racks down, wondering where No. 999 is? I know I was scared at Mike and Robs when my wave swam out frantically through the surf  and fog only to round a bouy soon after. There wasn’t much time to thin out and so I headed for the outside being caught short of breath, goggles fogged up, flailing arms all around. Yes I saw how easy it would be to go down. I joined a masters team to make me a faster swimmer but there’s more to it. After having been at the beach recently and watched someone be saved from rough surf I thought, who else can save him if not me who spends 5 days in the water. Why don’t I take life saving courses? And so I am. So maybe we should rethink the safety measures. More lifeguards, more space with bouys far out enough there’s no suicide corners to cut. Less people in each wave or big penalties  for contact. Numbers on the swim caps to make people accountable. Awareness of swimming dangers and education of saving techniques. Tow bouys for those who wish. Drafting boxes for the swim. This is supposed to fun and healthy for us, not life threatening. We can’t hide the dangers just to keeps the numbers growing. Yes, one death out of 5000  is way too many and unacceptable. I pray it doesn’t happen again soon. Chris —            EVERYONE DIES, BUT NOT EVERYONE LIVES

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Chris, Thank you for your insightful note. Your suggestions are noteworthy. I am sure there are a large number of triathletes who feel the same way you do. It has now become apparent to me that self awareness will not solve this problem. Some people apparently actually believe that you should be able to pummel someone during the swim. If we have people with this type of attitude, I see no alternative but for Tri-Fed to regulate such behavior. Unquestionably, someone will get hurt and killed if we have those types of triathletes in our races. Please join me in writing Tri-Fed and requesting that they investigate this matter further and make changes in the swim that will help make that portion of the triathlon safer for us all. You can write to:      Tri-Fed/USA      Attn: Steve Locke      P.O. Box 15820      Colorado Springs, CO. 89035 Don Herron

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Question:

I apologize for the original posting–I guess too much time at the checkout at the grocery store reading the latest tabloid with screaming headlines? I promise to never do that again on this page. As for the GI stuff, everything I’ve read in running, triathlon, and even (sorry) bodybuilding rags pushes a slow release of carbs as the healthy way to go.  And that is the universal recommendation.  It controls insulin levels better and helps prevent a ton of diseases including (from what I’ve read) adult on-set diabetes in the non-athletic population.     But back to the basics:  the larger the spike of incoming carbs, the more insulin and all the resulting factors.  Another example that comes to mind is doughnuts and coffee are no longer recommended as the breakfast of champions because the carbs in the pastry and the caffeine in the coffee drive screw up your blood sugar levels even tho you’re ready to climb the wall within about 30 minutes of slugging this stuff down.  And then the resulting crash comes mid morning when you blood sugar levels go negative from your body trying to compensate for trashing it earlier.   But, if you have a bowl of oats (the slow cooking kind) and some egg whites cooked with salsa & low fat cheese as a side dish to provide proteins (that will really stabilize blood sugar levels), you won’t experience that mid morning crash.  Is that a better explanation?  The same thing with a Powerbar vs. eating yogurt & an apple–bad GI index (Powerbar) vs. better GI index (yogurt/apple). And as for the bodybuilding stuff, maybe its not instinctive.  One more apology due and given on my part.  I do know they have incredibly high amounts of lean body mass, but so do powerlifters.  The difference is, the bodybuilders are incredibly careful about their food intake vs. powerlifters that eat like an ultramarathoner and end up looking like a stuffed blimb.  The point on this is, I’ve read many of the muscle magazines where up to 60% of the articles is on many of these topics and have provided some great insight as to controlling bodyfat through careful carbohydrate consumption.  Different sport, I know, but same objective–get lean. I agree with you on the bars–I stick with the real thing myself.   Again, check into some back issues of Runner’s World or Inside Triathlon–there may be some better explanations in there.  Or, if you’re daring, try one of the bodybuilding magazines…?

Response:

OK, the next time anyone posts anything about a sports food bar of any kind, take the following steps: 1 – Consider how many calories of food you consume in an average day. 2 – Consider how many "whatever" bars you consume in a day. 3 – Consider how many calories are in this "whatever" bar. 4 – Calculate how much of your daily calorie intake comes from the "whatever" bar I predict that you’ll reach the obvious conclusion that the sports food bar contributes a very small percentage of your daily calorie intake and that eating one a day (and I expect most of us don’t eat that many) will have virtually no effect on the overall balance of fats, protein and carbohydrates in your diet. In other words, even if a certain bar does contain the magic balance of protein, fat and carbos, it won’t make a whit of difference unless your diet consists of nothing else. Try ‘em all. See what works for you. Eat lots of fresh fruit and grains and keep the fat content of your routine diet reasonably low. Avoid nutritional BS. Oh yeah, and train real hard!

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I apologize for the original posting–I guess too much time at the checkout at the grocery store reading the latest tabloid with screaming headlines? I promise to never do that again on this page.

No apology needed. You’ve clarified things. Maybe if you’d started out saying that everything you’d read indicated that slow release of carbos is the way to go – insulin spikes etc, and that your reading of PRBars label vs Biozone indicates that one might be better than the other, it wouldn’t have set off my spam alarm. But putting "The TRUTH!!!" in the header, along with referring to someone as a former used car salesman certainly did that. You gotta stop reading those tabloids. :} – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -As for the GI stuff, everything I’ve read in running, triathlon, and even (sorry) bodybuilding rags pushes a slow release of carbs as the healthy way to go.  And that is the universal recommendation.  It controls insulin levels better and helps prevent a ton of diseases including (from what I’ve read) adult on-set diabetes in the non-athletic population.     But back to the basics:  the larger the spike of incoming carbs, the more insulin and all the resulting factors.  Another example that comes to mind is doughnuts and coffee are no longer recommended as the breakfast of champions because the carbs in the pastry and the caffeine in the coffee drive screw up your blood sugar levels even tho you’re ready to climb the wall within about 30 minutes of slugging this stuff down.  And then the resulting crash comes mid morning when you blood sugar levels go negative from your body trying to compensate for trashing it earlier.   But, if you have a bowl of oats (the slow cooking kind) and some egg whites cooked with salsa & low fat cheese as a side dish to provide proteins (that will really stabilize blood sugar levels), you won’t experience that mid morning crash.  Is that a better explanation?  The same thing with a Powerbar vs. eating yogurt & an apple–bad GI index (Powerbar) vs. better GI index (yogurt/apple).

Yep, that’s a very good  explanation. Makes sense, now that I see that’s what you’re referring to. I wish you had put it in the first post. Then I wouldn’t have gotten flamed for taking you to task. I agree with you on the bars–I stick with the real thing myself.   Again, check into some back issues of Runner’s World or Inside Triathlon–there may be some better explanations in there.  Or, if you’re daring, try one of the bodybuilding magazines…?

Ummm, I don’t know if I’ll go THAT far.  :} Mike Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Advertise your race. FTP Race Apps, FAQ   http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The glycemic index (GI) refers to the release of a carbohydrate into the blood stream hence the resulting insulin release.  For example, carbs from unprocessed grains are released far slower into the bloodstream than processed carbs.  Fiber plays an important role in this, as you probably are aware.  White bread, which has a bad GI, will unload into your system at 3 – 5 times the rate of broccoli, which has a favorable GI.  If you read "Runner’s World", the nutrition column by Liz Applegate also had some information on this topic as well. Biozone is not the only group that gets into this technology; diabetics, other people with blood sugar problems, etc., are taught this information so they can better control their diseases. And I would recommend reading up on insulin & fat retention–you’ll be surprised what answers are out there.   Consider this:  The leanest non-aerobic athletes (?) in the world are bodybuilders, and they instinctively know which carbs have better GI indexs than others.  I know I’ll get a backlash of arguments on drugs, etc., but there are numerous NATURAL trainers out there who despise aerobics but continue to display developed physiques with low bodyfat.  And its partially due to their knowledge of diet and the control of carbs. I hate to take a chance on sounding rude since so many people do it so freely on the Internet, but I think you did miss some of the points brought out in your biochemistry class or nutrition classes. Or even what Liz Applegate wrote in "Runner’s World". The bottom line was this, however:  If you want to use a diet based on the 4-3-3 concept and are currently on PR*Bars, read the label then check into what hydrogenated oils and high GI carbs do.  The Biozone bars, which I don’t use, are the better choice.  It was simply the relaying of information.

Parker: Well, your second post was definitely better than your breathless-with-wonder first one, but my spam detector hasn’t re-set yet. Maybe I’m just confused. Releasing carbos quickly into your blood stream is bad? Always? Seems to me, that would be ok in lots of situations – unless you’re diabetic? And what the heck does body-building have to do with anything? I suspect the fact that they spend 15 hours a day lifting Yugo’s might have more to do with low body fat than anything. And the statement that they "instinctively" know which foods have a good GI doesn’t warrant further comment. Could it be they talk among each other during those endless Yugo-lifts? Sorry, still sounds like  spam to me. BTW: I don’t use PR*bars, biozone, or anything like that. I’m on the old see-food diet. I see food, I eat it. Seems to work for me. WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Advertise your race. FTP Race Apps, FAQ   http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

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The glycemic index (GI) refers to the release of a carbohydrate into the blood stream hence the resulting insulin release.   And I would recommend reading up on insulin & fat retention–you’ll be surprised what answers are out there. Consider this:  The leanest non-aerobic athletes (?) in the world are bodybuilders, and they instinctively know which carbs have better GI indexs than others.  

Bodybuilders typically eat 5 to 6 relatively small meals per day to minmize blood sugar and insulin reactions. Chromium picolinate can also help smooth out insulin reactions.  If you want to use a diet based on the 4-3-3 concept and are currently on PR*Bars, read the label then check into what hydrogenated oils and high GI carbs do.  The Biozone bars, which I don’t use, are the better choice.  

But during exercise, the body is reluctant to release insulin, and eating high GI foods right before, and during exercise, won’t create much of an insulin reaction. Also, eating protein along with carbs (no matter how high their GI is) has a very strong synergistic affect, particularly after exercise. The insulin spike helps drive the carbs and protein into the muscles. Bodybuilders rely on this also. My earlier post on "Carb consumption vs. fat" explained many of the details on this. One must consider all of the evidence, not just part of it. -Warren

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The glycemic index (GI) refers to the release of a carbohydrate into the blood stream hence the resulting insulin release.  For example, carbs from unprocessed grains are released far slower into the bloodstream than processed carbs.  Fiber plays an important role in this, as you probably are aware.  White bread, which has a bad GI, will unload into your system at 3 – 5 times the rate of broccoli, which has a favorable GI.  If you read "Runner’s World", the nutrition column by Liz Applegate also had some information on this topic as well. Biozone is not the only group that gets into this technology; diabetics, other people with blood sugar problems, etc., are taught this information so they can better control their diseases. And I would recommend reading up on insulin & fat retention–you’ll be surprised what answers are out there.   Consider this:  The leanest non-aerobic athletes (?) in the world are bodybuilders, and they instinctively know which carbs have better GI indexs than others.  I know I’ll get a backlash of arguments on drugs, etc., but there are numerous NATURAL trainers out there who despise aerobics but continue to display developed physiques with low bodyfat.  And its partially due to their knowledge of diet and the control of carbs. I hate to take a chance on sounding rude since so many people do it so freely on the Internet, but I think you did miss some of the points brought out in your biochemistry class or nutrition classes. Or even what Liz Applegate wrote in "Runner’s World". The bottom line was this, however:  If you want to use a diet based on the 4-3-3 concept and are currently on PR*Bars, read the label then check into what hydrogenated oils and high GI carbs do.  The Biozone bars, which I don’t use, are the better choice.  It was simply the relaying of information.

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[edited for brevity, content errors probably my fault] Biozone is not the only group that gets into this technology; diabetics, other people with blood sugar problems, etc., are taught this information so they can better control their diseases. The bottom line was this, however:  If you want to use a diet based on the 4-3-3 concept and are currently on PR*Bars, read the label then check into what hydrogenated oils and high GI carbs do.  The Biozone bars, which I don’t use, are the better choice.  It was simply the relaying of information.

Note, Mike Tennent starts here and my comments are directed toward him. Parker: Well, your second post was definitely better than your breathless-with-wonder first one, but my spam detector hasn’t re-set yet.

Your spam-detector? I’ve tried very hard to avoid postings by Mike Tennent, but the fact that he posts so very often has made it impossible.  I was interested in the discussion that preceded Mike’s post. Maybe I’m just confused. Releasing carbos quickly into your blood stream is bad? Always? Seems to me, that would be ok in lots of situations – unless you’re diabetic?

No doubt you’re confused. Why someone who’s confused would announce it is beyond my understanding. Why you’ve picked a fight with the previous poster is equally baffling to me. And what the heck does body-building have to do with anything? I suspect the fact that they spend 15 hours a day lifting Yugo’s might have more to do with low body fat than anything. And the statement that they "instinctively" know which foods have a good GI doesn’t warrant further comment. Could it be they talk among each other during those endless Yugo-lifts? Sorry, still sounds like  spam to me.

And that’s where you’re simply wrong.   A post can’t "sound like spam."  A message becomes spam  when it is posted many times–period.  You may disagree with the post.  You may think that his post was off-topic (I don’t) and berate him for that. You may have nothing better to do than harass the poor fellow, and you decided to use your "word of the day" to castigate him publicly. In any case, you can’t call it spam without substantiation–calling it spam does not make it spam. For anyone who’s interested, spam-cancelling is a hot topic these days, and it receives a fair amount of discussion in the admin newsgroups.  For a definition of spam, I’ve included the following excerpt from the news.admin.net-abuse.misc FAQ: <starting with section 2.1 SPAM, SPAMMERS, and MOOSES 2.1) What is Spam? It’s a luncheon meat, kinda pink, comes in a can, made by Hormel. Most Americans intuitively, viscerally associate "Spam" with "no nutritive or aesthetic value." The luncheon meat has its own newsgroup, alt.spam. The term "spam," as used on this newsgroup, means "the same article (or essentially the same article) posted an unacceptably high number of times to one or more newsgroups." CONTENT IS IRRELEVANT. ‘Spam’ doesn’t mean "ads." It doesn’t mean "abuse." It doesn’t mean "posts whose content I object to." Spam is a funky name for a phenomenon that can be measured pretty objectively: did that post appear X times? (See: "Yeah, but how many is X?’) There have recently been examples of "customized" spams–where each post made some effort to apply to each individual newsgroup, but the general thrust of each article was the same. A huge straw poll on news.admin.policy, news.admin.misc, and a.c-e.n-a (December 1994) showed that as many of 90% of the readers felt that cancellations for these posts were justified. So, simply put: if you plan to post the same or similar messages to dozens of newsgroups, the posts are probably going to get cancelled. If you feel that a massive multi-post you are planning constitutes an exception, you are more than welcome to run the idea past the readers of news.admin.net-abuse.misc for feedback first. It should be noted that cross-posting a single message to many newsgroups (which many call "velveeta") is definitely *not* considered cancellable spam by those who cancel spam. That doesn’t mean it’s always a swell idea, though, and a large cross-post will probably evoke many flames. If you *must* cross-post, set the followups to a single appropriate group by adding a header line like   Followup-to: group.name.here This prevents the readers of all the groups from having to deal with the thread for weeks afterwards if the readers of only one or two of the groups take an interest in it. 2.2) Where did the term ‘Spam’ come from? From  the Monty Python song that goes, roughly, "Spam spam spam spam,

spam spam spam spam, spam spam spam spam…" See? The term wasn’t first used to describe mass news posting, however. See the Hacker’s Jargon File for previous uses of the word.

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The PR*Bars bars contain saturated fat and hydrogenated oils,   plus their high glycemic index is caused by incorrect carbs which slows fat loss. Huh? English translation, please?

Well, the saturated fat and hydrogenated oils stuff is reasonable, even if it’s just two ways of saying the same thing. As for the "high glycemic index" and "incorrect carbs," I smell BS. Perhaps the glycemic index refers to its fat content, judging by the root, but I haven’t heard of it before. Even so, that’s just three ways of saying the same thing: saturated fat, hydrogenated oils, "high glycemic index." I’m pretty sure "incorrect carbs" are non-existent, and I can’t see how the specific structure of the carbohydrates could possibly have anything to do with fat loss anyway. Bottom Line English Translation: Advertising snow job, attempting to take advantage of those who slept through their biology classes. David DeGusta

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There seems to be a big misconception that PR*Bars & the Biozone program are the same thing.  Check into the products and you’ll find PR*Bars are not the same thing as Biozone bars!  The PR*Bars bars contain saturated fat and hydrogenated oils, plus their high glycemic index is caused by incorrect carbs which slows fat loss.  And, I understand the PR*Bar company is a spin-off of Biozone started by a former Biozone member & a used car salesman! Don’t be fooled by the PR*Bar program or advertising like so many of us; after doing some research, you’ll find out who’s got the real program.   And Biozone does not push their supplement–they the full program available through a book which teaches you how to use real foods to successfully lose bodyfat.  I’ve had better and faster success from Biozone.  Can Dave Scott, Biozone user, be wrong?

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There seems to be a big misconception that PR*Bars & the Biozone program are the same thing.  Check into the products and you’ll find PR*Bars are not the same thing as Biozone bars!  

Ok, what next?  Fords aren’t Chevys?  Wow. The PR*Bars bars contain saturated fat and hydrogenated oils, plus their high glycemic index is caused by incorrect carbs which slows fat loss.

Huh? English translation, please? DeGusta – you want to ring in here? This is your kind of topic. And, I understand the PR*Bar company is a spin-off of Biozone started by a former Biozone member & a used car salesman!

So? Netscape spun off Mosaic. What’s you’re point? Don’t be fooled by the PR*Bar program or advertising like so many of us;

Aha, you done "seen the light!" after doing some research, you’ll find out who’s got the real program.   And Biozone does not push their supplement–they the full program available through a book which teaches you how to use real foods to successfully lose bodyfat.  I’ve had better and faster success from Biozone. Can Dave Scott, Biozone user, be wrong?

Yes, but I wouldn’t want to be the one to tell him  :} Seriously,  Dave Scott is Dave Scott. What works for him doesn’t necesarily work for you or me. The point of this silly rambling is:   if you have some facts – present ‘em. This has all the earmarks of a spam. And a poor one at that. Mike Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Advertise your race. FTP Race Apps, FAQ   http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

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