Question:

For Sale:  Airborne Spectre Time Trial/Triathlon frame.  56 cm frame for 700c wheels.  This is a pre-production model that I have been able to race on this season.  I have about 1200 miles on it. It is in excellent condition.  See  http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/2001/products/spgeometry…  for geometry.  There are some differences between this frame and the current model.  This has a 1" head tube and a water bottle cage mount on the back of the  seat tube just above the seat stays.  It does not have the head tube nose cone or the fairing on the back of the  seat tube.  And it costs a lot less than the production model.  $600 obo Dia-Compe threadless headset (used) included.  Scott Spees

Response:

Question:

The biggest point is that cycling does not substitute for long runs. If your goal is to race short distances cycling is beneficial and can be use to substitute a high percentage of training. But getting into long distance running cycling becomes much less effective.

Bingo.  Couldn’t have said it better myself. At the marathon level, specificity of training really comes into play. Biking simply will not give you the *running* muscle strength you need.  It’ll contribute to your overall conditioning and some muscle strength, but if you want to run long, you have to run long. Your plan sounds good, if you accept up front that it’s not ideal for either running your best or biking your best. It’s a compromise. On a positive note – since you’re more of a biker than a runner,  the bikes on off weekends may give your legs a break from the running that they’ll need/appreciate. And the biking will still give you a quality workout. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman, Model Railroader, Gamer www.ironpeng.com/ipe/

Response:

thanks everyone. when is the duathlon season?  it would be nice to do one or two, but i wouldn’t substitute road racing for duathlons.  the adrenaline of road racing is priceless. so far the running has been going well.  the program i mentioned is an 18 week program that recommends a month of 25 mile weeks beforhand.  i don’t keep track of mileage, but time.  i’ve been putting in at least 3.5 hours/week running for the last month, which should be 25-30 miles depending on how i felt.  i’ve done half marathons around 7:10/mile, and hope to do the ‘thon at 7:30.  it’s been a while since i’ve run that fast…can’t imagine running 7:10 for 13 miles right now…it’s a long road.

Response:

Saw your post in rbr and was going to suggest you go here, but you did on your own…you’re already on the right track! i just filled out the application for the dc marathon.  doing well in local bike races is my goal for next year.  i want to do the marathon so’s to keep fit (very fit) over the winter months, as it might get too cold to ride the bike. i’m thinking that i could substitute the group ride for that run.

As others have noted, biking is not a substitute for marathon training.  A complement, yes, but a substitute, no way. If you’re a competent rider, and it sounds like you are, do the Saturday rides on your "off" weeks but go ahead and do that medium distance run on Sunday. Your legs shouldn’t be too trashed from the ride to get a good solid run in the next day. Your "on" weeks consisting of the long runs should be treated like any major workout or race–be somewhat rested for it.  Running long, even if it is a bit slower than you are perhaps used to, is still very hard work.  The long run is the cornerstone of the marathon training program—don’t take it lightly! Good luck and train safe. Mike C

Response:

I race triathlons, but come from a running background.  Cross training is now a way of life.  I run marathons while training for triathlons, and must say that biking hasn’t appeared to help my running in the least. In fact quite the opposite has occurred.  I think the biggest factor is that running miles have been cut back in order to train in three disciplines.  In other words I don’t blame the bike, but rather the running miles that had to be sacrificed for the bike.  The body can only take so much. I think running as cross training is much better than doing nothing, but there is no substitute for specific training.  If you truly are unable to cycle as much through the winter, then running will help maintain an aerobic base.  If you get to the point were you are giving up bike time to run, your cycling will suffer.  I would consider this if cycling is your true passion. If you find that you love to run as well, you may want to consider multi-sport (tri- or duathlon). To train intensely in two or more disciplines (Steve Larsen being an apparent exception) requires that compromises be made. Best of luck, Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i just filled out the application for the dc marathon.  doing well in local bike races is my goal for next year.  i want to do the marathon so’s to keep fit (very fit) over the winter months, as it might get too cold to ride the bike.  i’d like to keep doing my favorite saturday morning group ride (3.5hrs).  i like the looks of the training program at the ny marathon website.  every other weekend is an "off" weekend, where the long run is only 13 or so miles.  i’m thinking that i could substitute the group ride for that run.  any opinions?  does anyone know of a book or website that is heavy on the cross-training?  any cyclists on this group?

Response:

i just filled out the application for the dc marathon.  doing well in local bike races is my goal for next year.  i want to do the marathon so’s to keep fit (very fit) over the winter months, as it might get too cold to ride the bike.  i’d like to keep doing my favorite saturday morning group ride (3.5hrs).  i like the looks of the training program at the ny marathon website.  every other weekend is an "off" weekend, where the long run is only 13 or so miles.  i’m thinking that i could substitute the group ride for that run.  any opinions?  does anyone know of a book or website that is heavy on the cross-training?  any cyclists on this group?

Response:

You sound like you should be training for duathlons.  You can race your bike (which is non draft, of course) and you can run.  It starts off with the run then bike then run again. I started out racing mountain bikes, switched to road racing (bikes), and ran most of my life.  I got serious into duathlon, then made the switch to triathlon several years ago. rec.sport.triathlon is an excellent group to subscribe to also, lots of very knowledgeable people there that can answer your questions. In duathlon and triathlon, I still do a long run every weekend when not in bike season.  In bike season I alternate weekends, long run one weekend, long bike the next weekend, and one brick workout per week, (run then bike), the mileage depends on you and your type of racing. The rest of the week is swimming biking and running with a rest day in there usually on a friday for me because I like to go long on the weekend and I like to have a day’s rest before hand. Good Luck Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i just filled out the application for the dc marathon.  doing well in local bike races is my goal for next year.  i want to do the marathon so’s to keep fit (very fit) over the winter months, as it might get too cold to ride the bike.  i’d like to keep doing my favorite saturday morning group ride (3.5hrs).  i like the looks of the training program at the ny marathon website.  every other weekend is an "off" weekend, where the long run is only 13 or so miles.  i’m thinking that i could substitute the group ride for that run.  any opinions?  does anyone know of a book or website that is heavy on the cross-training?  any cyclists on this group?

Response:

I’m a triathlete and cycling tourist who runs. The biggest point is that cycling does not substitute for long runs. If your goal is to race short distances cycling is beneficial and can be use to substitute a high percentage of training. But getting into long distance running cycling becomes much less effective. The reason being a cyclist will occasionally rest their legs. Even tour riders find places where they aren’t pedaling all out. This isn’t the case for runners. You stop running and you stop and wave bye-bye to your fellow competitors. Your plan sounds reasonable to me. But be careful to recover and lay off of running when your cycling schedule starts. Running extra always took speed away from my cycling. I always found cycling just after running to be more difficult than cycling fresh. Running after cycling wasn’t much more difficult than running fresh. You will not be able to substitute long runs for long rides. And you’ll have to listen to your ride partners complain that you are turning into a "wheel sucker". But when you show up for a ride with a marathon medal around your neck you’ll get regain some respect. Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i just filled out the application for the dc marathon.  doing well in local bike races is my goal for next year.  i want to do the marathon so’s to keep fit (very fit) over the winter months, as it might get too cold to ride the bike.  i’d like to keep doing my favorite saturday morning group ride (3.5hrs).  i like the looks of the training program at the ny marathon website.  every other weekend is an "off" weekend, where the long run is only 13 or so miles.  i’m thinking that i could substitute the group ride for that run.  any opinions?  does anyone know of a book or website that is heavy on the cross-training?  any cyclists on this group?

Response:

Andy, I always found cycling just after running to be more difficult than cycling fresh. Running after cycling wasn’t much more difficult than running fresh.

That is the exact reverse of what I personally find! <LOL I often run alone and then bike with a friend without difficulty, in fact I feel ‘warmed up’ but if we have to bike early and I run immediately after, my thighs most often feel like treetrunks. People’s different reactions to exercise never cease to amaze me. I would add one caveat and that is I am a runner who bikes "sometimes" and perhaps more regular training on the bike may make a difference. BTW I agree with you comments on long distance cycling’s NON-efficacy as a training tool for running or at least as a substitute for a long run. I find short sharp rides (upto an hour and a half say) quite useful Xtraining but as you say much longer and it seems to me there is tendency for your body to get used to those freewheeling breaks and those ’soft pedalling’ opportunities. Not really relevant to the issue but I have found a stationary bike useful in that way though. I have only ever done just under 2 hours (the limitation is boredom as much as anything) BUT my HRM read outs after that are much more akin to those while running (if a bit lower than running) than those when biking on the road. In fact it is very easy to see a road bike ride HRM read out (even a short sharp ride) because it looks like an extremely nasty Alpine stage in the TdF rather than the comparatively smooth line of those from running and stationary biking. I think faced with Jim’s dilemma I would manipulate the marathon schedule so that his long bike ride came on a ‘very easy’ running day. I must be getting old but I don’t consider a 13 mile run an "off weekend"!!! Given that he can do that and the schedule only calls for say an easy 5 or 6 or something – I would do that 5 or 6 (mostly for my mind!) and then go out for the long bike ride, sit in a lot and take the flak from my mates! John

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a triathlete and cycling tourist who runs. The biggest point is that cycling does not substitute for long runs. If your goal is to race short distances cycling is beneficial and can be use to substitute a high percentage of training. But getting into long distance running cycling becomes much less effective. The reason being a cyclist will occasionally rest their legs. Even tour riders find places where they aren’t pedaling all out. This isn’t the case for runners. You stop running and you stop and wave bye-bye to your fellow competitors. Your plan sounds reasonable to me. But be careful to recover and lay off of running when your cycling schedule starts. Running extra always took speed away from my cycling. I always found cycling just after running to be more difficult than cycling fresh. Running after cycling wasn’t much more difficult than running fresh. You will not be able to substitute long runs for long rides. And you’ll have to listen to your ride partners complain that you are turning into a "wheel sucker". But when you show up for a ride with a marathon medal around your neck you’ll get regain some respect. Andy i just filled out the application for the dc marathon.  doing well in local bike races is my goal for next year.  i want to do the marathon so’s to keep fit (very fit) over the winter months, as it might get too cold to ride the bike.  i’d like to keep doing my favorite saturday morning group ride (3.5hrs).  i like the looks of the training program at the ny marathon website.  every other weekend is an "off" weekend, where the long run is only 13 or so miles.  i’m thinking that i could substitute the group ride for that run.  any opinions?  does anyone know of a book or website that is heavy on the cross-training?  any cyclists on this group?

Response:

Question:

  Words have meaning, weight, and consequences. If colleges can institute politically correct speech codes to protect the feelings of the oversensitive wallowing in victimhood, then what is wrong with me standing up for that inconsequential detail formerly known as the English language?  

Ahhhh, I just love an opportunity like this. says Brian…me standing…. …ME standing? You must know the gerund takes a possessive! Let’s hear it for inconsequential details! Ruth Kazez

Response:

  Words have meaning, weight, and consequences. If colleges can institute politically correct speech codes to protect the feelings of the oversensitive wallowing in victimhood, then what is wrong with me standing up for that inconsequential detail formerly known as the English language? Ahhhh, I just love an opportunity like this. says Brian…me standing…. …ME standing? You must know the gerund takes a possessive!

Yes, it should have been "my standing," and I’m wondering how some people here who let you beat them to it.  And in the spirit of what I was saying, I thank you for pointing out and correcting my error.  I will NOT defend the error on the basis of it being "right for *me*."  We all make mistakes; the difference is in how we deal with them. Let’s hear it for inconsequential details!

Yes.  I also concur with your feelings about your getting the IV, although, with the dues you’ve paid, and under the circumstances you described, I certainly think it was justified.

Response:

I’d rather listen to Beavis and Butthead than some grammar nazi who writes 5 paragraphs demanding that Andrew call himself a "triathlete". John "Yorkshire Terrier" Royal Before you buy.

Response:

Waaaay off topic, but in the line of this thread: Grammar is not some dried up academic bit of nonsense that teachers shove down (or up) unwilling kids, never to be of any use beyond 5th grade.  It’s nothing more or less than some conventions to ensure that what you mean to say is what I hear.  If I understand what someone tells me without having to piece together a jigsaw puzzle of words plus a few guesses, then the speaker has used adequate grammar.  Assuming I’m familiar with the subject, the easier it is to understand what is said, the more likely it is there were no grammatical mistakes.  Correct punctuation serves the same purpose.  A well placed semi-colon is a thing of joy and no period or comma can substitute for it. Ruth "Like it or not, I have joined the club of I Agreed With Brian (but I’m not going to let this become a habit)" Kazez

Response:

Gotta stick with Brian on this one. I’ve done dozens of Du’s including a 13.1m 112m 13.1m and I’ve done tri’s as a team but I don’t swim and have never called myself a "triathlete" and correct those that make the assumption. J.J. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geez, Brian, let him call himself what he wants to call himself. Before you buy.

Response:

11:28 AM: Waaaay off topic, but in the line of this thread: Grammar is not some dried up academic bit of nonsense that teachers shove down (or up) unwilling kids, never to be of any use beyond 5th grade.  It’s nothing more or less than some conventions to ensure that what you mean to say is what I hear.  If I understand what someone tells me without having to piece together a jigsaw puzzle of words plus a few guesses, then the speaker has used adequate grammar.  Assuming I’m familiar with the subject, the easier it is to understand what is said, the more likely it is there were no grammatical mistakes.  Correct punctuation serves the same purpose.  A well placed semi-colon is a thing of joy and no period or comma can substitute for it. Ruth "Like it or not, I have joined the club of I Agreed With Brian (but I’m not going to let this become a habit)" Kazez

This discussion reminds me of a comic my editor has on her bulletin board. With all due apologies to the strip’s creator, Jan Eliot, the dialogue reads as follows:    "Holly, punctuation isn’t boring, it’s fun!     Read this."    "Woman, without her man, is nothing."    "Or"    "Woman — without her, man is nothing."    "Whoa."    "Punctuation is power, dear. Use it wisely,     and for the good of humanity." Technique is as important in language as it is in triathlons. Roger Merrill San Diego, CA

Response:

Geez, Brian, let him call himself what he wants to call himself.

I think that’s fair, but Andrew shouldn’t take umbrage if *we* call him one ‘Triathlete, triathlete, na-na-na-na-naaaaa . . . ‘ TriathRon ‘triathlete, but not Ironman’ Gilcreast Before you buy.

Response:

This is a very good question.  Personally, I am incurably competitive to the point of never having been able to *enjoy* social or make up games just for fun. I believe this is so, because I became conditioned to enjoy the success that comes from competition rather than just the competition itself.  I am 44 yo and have been a competitive athlete for as far back as I can remember (my running career began at age 7) and have competed at elite levels in a number of disciplines. There are undoubtedly a large number of people in this ng who will suggest that this is an unhealthy viewpoint, however I believe it only becomes unhealthy when the focus is on *beating* someone as opposed to improving one’s performance. Don’t get me wrong, I love to win but I am content with coming last, if I have prepared myself in the best way possible, have raced as strongly and as intelligently as I could and have achieved the best time/result for me. What this means, in terms of Roger’s question, is that I became serious about technique the moment I decided to embrace the sport of triathlon.  My life’s goal is to be the best that I can be, in life work and sport, and in so far as the sport is concerned I understand the fundamental importance of developing the correct technique is in realising that goal. Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All the recent discussions about aerodynamics, drafting, and so on have raised a more fundamental question in my mind: At what level do do triathletes get serious about their technique? It occurs to me that a vast majority of us are what I would term "survival" triathletes. We do these events for the sheer challenge of finishing them. We survive. That is an honorable and a rare thing. Finishing a half- or full-Ironman puts one in heady company indeed. At what point does a triathlete start training with the "specialists" in each of the disciplines to improve rather than merely survive? I bring this up because I’ve spent the last several years training with and racing with cyclists. If I’m out on a training ride with one of the local teams, there will almost always be two or three riders that can kick my butt pretty much at will. But I live in San Diego, where there are triathletes everywhere. If I hook up with a pod of triathletes out on a training ride, the tables are turned. Even the very fast ones have a hard time dropping me. I even get to do the butt- kicking once in a while. I’m not an elite cyclist. I’m 5′10" and 200+ pounds. It’s a matter of technique. The same thing applies to swimming. I swam competitively for 7 or 8 years as a kid. When I entered my first triathlon, I was surprised at the remarkably inefficient technique many — indeed most — displayed. At what point does technique move beyond simple aerobic endurance? Does one have to be at the elite level simply to consider good technique? I think not. If I can use the same energy to average 22 miles-per-hour a less-experienced cyclist uses to average 19 or 20 miles- per-hour for the cycling leg, I’ll have a 16- to 18-minute lead going into the run (half-ironman distance). That’s significant. Am I missing something here? Why doesn’t technique come into play much earlier in the triathlon "learning curve?" Roger Merrill San Diego, CA

Response:

Mike, It’s a personal thing.  In my mind I couldn’t consider myself a triathlete until I’ve completed the ultimate test, being the Ironman.  Having said that, I must hasten to state that this in no way implies that I consider anyone else who hasn’t completed an Ironman to not be a triathlete, I am applying this caveat only on myself.

OK, thanks for the clarification. I was hoping you weren’t applying your standard to others. Enjoy the journey to your Ironman. I wish you success. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

Response:

Geez, Brian, let him call himself what he wants to call himself. Before you buy.

Response:

Geez, Brian, let him call himself what he wants to call himself.

One could just as easily have said a year ago, "Geez, everyone let Judy call herself what she wants to call herself."  And if I want to call myself a Yorkshire Terrier, then what?  Words have meaning, weight, and consequences. If colleges can institute politically correct speech codes to protect the feelings of the oversensitive wallowing in victimhood, then what is wrong with me standing up for that inconsequential detail formerly known as the English language?  Or perhaps you’d rather stand by and say nothing until the whole society sounds like Beavis and Butthead.

Response:

Mike, It’s a personal thing.  In my mind I couldn’t consider myself a triathlete until I’ve completed the ultimate test, being the Ironman.  Having said that, I must hasten to state that this in no way implies that I consider anyone else who hasn’t completed an Ironman to not be a triathlete, I am applying this caveat only on myself. I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone who even attempts to complete a triathlon, regardless of the distance.  For me though, I need to have earned the right to wear the tag and part of the process of earning it is to complete the Ironman.  If that makes me weird, so be it.  I’ll tell you one thing though, the motivation it gives me is quite extraordinary.  I *want* to be able to call myself a triathlete but I want to feel comfortable with myself in doing so. Andy (I never claimed to be normal) Dale

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ROFL. I don’t call myself a triathlete – yet!  When I complete my first Ironman I’ll call myself a triathlete and wear the tag proudly.  In the meantime, my first name is as good a handle as any I can think of. Andy (with Learner Plates) Dale Goodness. Why do you think you have do an Ironman before calling yourself a triathlete? I was one years before I did an IM. Lots of triathletes will never do one. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

Response:

It’s a personal thing.  In my mind I couldn’t consider myself a triathlete until I’ve completed the ultimate test, being the Ironman.

Problem is, language only works when words have agreed upon, standard meanings.  A triathlete is one who competes in triathlons.  Triathlons come in various lengths.  There is a word for those who complete an IM distance race, and that word is ironman.  There was no small controversy here over Judy Molnar ALLEGEDLY calling herself an ironman before she actually completed an IM distance race, but she was still a triathlete.           Your personal insistence on twisting the meaning of these words only serves to perpetuate the misconceptions that run rampant among the general public, such as the one that IMH is the only triathlon inthe world, or that shorter races aren’t ‘real’ triathlons.  People here have complained about others asking them when they’re going to do a ‘real’ triathlon, and your linguistic rebellion only encourages such remarks.   Having said that, I must hasten to state that this in no way implies that I consider anyone else who hasn’t completed an Ironman to not be a triathlete, I am applying this caveat only on myself.

Oh, but the implication is there, nonetheless.  Words have consequences.  Your disclaimer only increases the insinuation because it carries the implicit assertion that you have a higher degree of integrity than those who do not ‘apply this caveat to’ themselves.  Your remarks have the same effect as the complaints against Judy – the implication that other people are usurping a title in a manner that *you* would never stoop to.   I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone who even attempts to complete a triathlon, regardless of the distance.  

Then get on board withthe rest of the English speaking world and show it with how you use words. For me though, I need to have earned the right to wear the tag and part of the process of earning it is to complete the Ironman.  If that makes me weird, so be it.

No, it just makes you no different from people who use the word ‘paranoid’ to denote any sort of anxiety, or ‘alibi’ to denote any sort of excuse, because their only exposure to the terms is in the context of pop music lyrics, or some other media source that mangles the mother tongue.  Modern society is full of intentional and unintentional linguistic deconstructionists, so you’re hardly weird for it, although you are incorrect. I’ll tell you one thing though, the motivation it gives me is quite extraordinary.  I *want* to be able to call myself a triathlete but I want to feel comfortable with myself in doing so.

You could get the same motivation from wanting to call yourself an ironman, which is a far more coveted title.  Watch this newsgroup for a while and you’ll see that it’s a much bigger deal, what with completers getting M-dot tattoos, etc.  That way, you get the double benefit of seeking a more impressive title, and also having what is today the singular distinction of being a skilled and proper practitioner of the English language.

Response:

ROFL. I don’t call myself a triathlete – yet!  When I complete my first Ironman I’ll call myself a triathlete and wear the tag proudly.  In the meantime, my first name is as good a handle as any I can think of. Andy (with Learner Plates) Dale

Goodness. Why do you think you have do an Ironman before calling yourself a triathlete? I was one years before I did an IM. Lots of triathletes will never do one. Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

Response:

When they get serious about the relationship? Sorry, couldn’t resist.

Response:

I for one concentrate on technique in sports because it makes it easier to go faster, or use less energy to go the same speed as before.  being lazy, I like to get from point A to point B with as little effort as possible but maximum speed.  I started doing this when my swim coach succeeded in teaching me what ’streamlined’ meant at age 11. Marty Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

ROFL. I don’t call myself a triathlete – yet!  When I complete my first Ironman I’ll call myself a triathlete and wear the tag proudly.  In the meantime, my first name is as good a handle as any I can think of. Andy (with Learner Plates) Dale – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I submit that your attitude makes you unqualified to call yourself a triathlete. It does, however, make you worthy of your first name. Andrew ("who, me? competitive?") Coggan This is a very good question.  Personally, I am incurably competitive to the point of never having been able to *enjoy* social or make up games just for fun. I believe this is so, because I became conditioned to enjoy the success that comes from competition rather than just the competition itself.  I am 44 yo and have been a competitive athlete for as far back as I can remember (my running career began at age 7) and have competed at elite levels in a number of disciplines. There are undoubtedly a large number of people in this ng who will suggest that this is an unhealthy viewpoint, however I believe it only becomes unhealthy when the focus is on *beating* someone as opposed to improving one’s performance. Don’t get me wrong, I love to win but I am content with coming last, if I have prepared myself in the best way possible, have raced as strongly and as intelligently as I could and have achieved the best time/result for me. What this means, in terms of Roger’s question, is that I became serious about technique the moment I decided to embrace the sport of triathlon. My life’s goal is to be the best that I can be, in life work and sport, and in so far as the sport is concerned I understand the fundamental importance of developing the correct technique is in realising that goal. Andy All the recent discussions about aerodynamics, drafting, and so on have raised a more fundamental question in my mind: At what level do do triathletes get serious about their technique? It occurs to me that a vast majority of us are what I would term "survival" triathletes. We do these events for the sheer challenge of finishing them. We survive. That is an honorable and a rare thing. Finishing a half- or full-Ironman puts one in heady company indeed. At what point does a triathlete start training with the "specialists" in each of the disciplines to improve rather than merely survive? I bring this up because I’ve spent the last several years training with and racing with cyclists. If I’m out on a training ride with one of the local teams, there will almost always be two or three riders that can kick my butt pretty much at will. But I live in San Diego, where there are triathletes everywhere. If I hook up with a pod of triathletes out on a training ride, the tables are turned. Even the very fast ones have a hard time dropping me. I even get to do the butt- kicking once in a while. I’m not an elite cyclist. I’m 5′10" and 200+ pounds. It’s a matter of technique. The same thing applies to swimming. I swam competitively for 7 or 8 years as a kid. When I entered my first triathlon, I was surprised at the remarkably inefficient technique many — indeed most — displayed. At what point does technique move beyond simple aerobic endurance? Does one have to be at the elite level simply to consider good technique? I think not. If I can use the same energy to average 22 miles-per-hour a less-experienced cyclist uses to average 19 or 20 miles- per-hour for the cycling leg, I’ll have a 16- to 18-minute lead going into the run (half-ironman distance). That’s significant. Am I missing something here? Why doesn’t technique come into play much earlier in the triathlon "learning curve?" Roger Merrill San Diego, CA

Response:

I submit that your attitude makes you unqualified to call yourself a triathlete. It does, however, make you worthy of your first name. Andrew ("who, me? competitive?") Coggan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a very good question.  Personally, I am incurably competitive to the point of never having been able to *enjoy* social or make up games just for fun. I believe this is so, because I became conditioned to enjoy the success that comes from competition rather than just the competition itself.  I am 44 yo and have been a competitive athlete for as far back as I can remember (my running career began at age 7) and have competed at elite levels in a number of disciplines. There are undoubtedly a large number of people in this ng who will suggest that this is an unhealthy viewpoint, however I believe it only becomes unhealthy when the focus is on *beating* someone as opposed to improving one’s performance. Don’t get me wrong, I love to win but I am content with coming last, if I have prepared myself in the best way possible, have raced as strongly and as intelligently as I could and have achieved the best time/result for me. What this means, in terms of Roger’s question, is that I became serious about technique the moment I decided to embrace the sport of triathlon.  My life’s goal is to be the best that I can be, in life work and sport, and in so far as the sport is concerned I understand the fundamental importance of developing the correct technique is in realising that goal. Andy All the recent discussions about aerodynamics, drafting, and so on have raised a more fundamental question in my mind: At what level do do triathletes get serious about their technique? It occurs to me that a vast majority of us are what I would term "survival" triathletes. We do these events for the sheer challenge of finishing them. We survive. That is an honorable and a rare thing. Finishing a half- or full-Ironman puts one in heady company indeed. At what point does a triathlete start training with the "specialists" in each of the disciplines to improve rather than merely survive? I bring this up because I’ve spent the last several years training with and racing with cyclists. If I’m out on a training ride with one of the local teams, there will almost always be two or three riders that can kick my butt pretty much at will. But I live in San Diego, where there are triathletes everywhere. If I hook up with a pod of triathletes out on a training ride, the tables are turned. Even the very fast ones have a hard time dropping me. I even get to do the butt- kicking once in a while. I’m not an elite cyclist. I’m 5′10" and 200+ pounds. It’s a matter of technique. The same thing applies to swimming. I swam competitively for 7 or 8 years as a kid. When I entered my first triathlon, I was surprised at the remarkably inefficient technique many — indeed most — displayed. At what point does technique move beyond simple aerobic endurance? Does one have to be at the elite level simply to consider good technique? I think not. If I can use the same energy to average 22 miles-per-hour a less-experienced cyclist uses to average 19 or 20 miles- per-hour for the cycling leg, I’ll have a 16- to 18-minute lead going into the run (half-ironman distance). That’s significant. Am I missing something here? Why doesn’t technique come into play much earlier in the triathlon "learning curve?" Roger Merrill San Diego, CA

Response:

I can only comment on my current level of competing in multisport events, which is still *far* from being elite. I’ve been taking part in tri’s for almost two years now, and only got "serious" about technique about two months ago. (This is for my swim technique, or lack thereof) Like Tom, I have also discovered that mixing with dedicated single-sport people help you focus on the task at hand. After my first season in tri’s I started to work really hard on my bike by doing local bike races. Being able to move up in the categories by performing better encouraged me to look at other, better, cyclists for technique and tips on racing AND training. The main reason for doing this is because I noticed a "gap" between my performance before and what I thought it should be. (On the bike!) Result: I feel I can handle myself in any bike event now. No, I’m not topdog of the pack, yet! But I’m able to duke it out with the most people that I compete with. The same thing happened with my swimming. I met one of our ex-olympians, and started training with him. In the first two weeks I dropped about 30 seconds on my 200m time. Amazing improvement at the time, but the curve quickly leveled off. No matter what I tried, my times didn’t improve anymore. All I could think of that I haven’t taken a look at yet was my technique. I bought a book on tri’s for this reason, but couldn’t get a grasp on the descriptions. I then discovered TI’s articles on the web, and am trying to master their technique, as it is making allot more sense. (The swimmer is a sprint breast stroker with a powerful kick. Not going to help much in open water) To get back to the question at hand: I guess triathletes turn from "survival" to "attack" mode after they realize there is something lacking in their training. When they find that extra time in the saddle/ on the road/ in the pool isn’t bringing the expected improvement in times. This observation is for a triathlete without a real single-sport background. (Like me, though I *thought* I were a pretty good swimmer!) It might not hold for someone coming from a strong swimming/ running/cycle background, but they might already have a good technique, and know that is the only way to improve on the "weaker" events. After discovering ones need for better technique, I guess you also realize the need for a good coach. Up to now, I’ve been my own coach, maybe that is my big problem! Roger Merrill wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All the recent discussions about aerodynamics, drafting, and so on have raised a more fundamental question in my mind: At what level do do triathletes get serious about their technique?

Response:

I agree completely with what you posted! Thats why I ride with USCF cyclists that only bike! Swim with USMS swimmers that only swim (ok they may occasionally go for a jog)! Run with RRCA locals on the track. I don’t think any of them can swim a lick! And like you there are always those in each of these groups that can blow me away easily.  But I get a perverse sense of satisfaction when after a hard ride with these guys. They have planned there whole day around it I might add. I am throughing my bike in the car to go swim 3 miles at swim practice. And coming into the locker room in full bike regalia.  None of the swimmers have any idea how I just rode.  They get on a mountain bike and ride a few miles and consider that a bike ride. I don’t say much of anything to either group. Cause really swimmers have no idea of what elite bike training is like and vice versa. Thats just all part of being a triathlete in my book.  Bottom line is be humble.  Unless that is… if your gonna be world famous by Friday! PS.. skip the triathlon coaches and train with the specialists! Tom Biery (aka "Goodtime" is my trail name)

Response:

All the recent discussions about aerodynamics, drafting, and so on have raised a more fundamental question in my mind: At what level do do triathletes get serious about their technique?

Roger,  It is an individual choice.   Many people don’t have the time nor the dedication / focus to worry about technique.   Some are ignorant on the significant difference it can make.   Some have the strength but perhaps not the overall coordination for superb technique ( like me at swimming). I don’t think the level has anything to do with it.   It is a factor of desire, drive, motivation, as well as coordination and knowledge.   I go into a triathlon to do my very best at winning my catagory. I did that on my first triathlon.  That is my choice.  Many just like to participate, enjoy the group and be able to say they did it.  I’m glad it’s like that.  If everyone went to the start line with perfect technique, maximum drive, determination to win etc., my wins would be few and far between. Before you buy.

Response:

All the recent discussions about aerodynamics, drafting, and so on have raised a more fundamental question in my mind: At what level do do triathletes get serious about their technique? It occurs to me that a vast majority of us are what I would term "survival" triathletes. We do these events for the sheer challenge of finishing them. We survive. That is an honorable and a rare thing. Finishing a half- or full-Ironman puts one in heady company indeed. At what point does a triathlete start training with the "specialists" in each of the disciplines to improve rather than merely survive? I bring this up because I’ve spent the last several years training with and racing with cyclists. If I’m out on a training ride with one of the local teams, there will almost always be two or three riders that can kick my butt pretty much at will. But I live in San Diego, where there are triathletes everywhere. If I hook up with a pod of triathletes out on a training ride, the tables are turned. Even the very fast ones have a hard time dropping me. I even get to do the butt- kicking once in a while. I’m not an elite cyclist. I’m 5′10" and 200+ pounds. It’s a matter of technique. The same thing applies to swimming. I swam competitively for 7 or 8 years as a kid. When I entered my first triathlon, I was surprised at the remarkably inefficient technique many — indeed most — displayed. At what point does technique move beyond simple aerobic endurance? Does one have to be at the elite level simply to consider good technique? I think not. If I can use the same energy to average 22 miles-per-hour a less-experienced cyclist uses to average 19 or 20 miles- per-hour for the cycling leg, I’ll have a 16- to 18-minute lead going into the run (half-ironman distance). That’s significant. Am I missing something here? Why doesn’t technique come into play much earlier in the triathlon "learning curve?" Roger Merrill San Diego, CA

Response:

Training adults is not the same as training kids and most triathletes start out when they are mature aged. I also swam competitively as a kid and also competed as a junior level cyclist where it is always technique then speed and stamina. For most entry level triathletes I think you will find the time required in the pool concentrating on swimming technique is out of their reach, therefore they train simply to get quicker, quickly. The same with cycling, how many people that work a 40+ hour week could afford to spend 10-15 hours per week simply practicing their cycling technique. Technique is very important for all sports but if you can reach a level you are comfortable with by using simple guided training programs then why change. When time and lifestyle permits take the next and get some sport specific coaching but it takes a lot of patience for most people to see little short term gains. Horses for courses. Lloyd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All the recent discussions about aerodynamics, drafting, and so on have raised a more fundamental question in my mind: At what level do do triathletes get serious about their technique? It occurs to me that a vast majority of us are what I would term "survival" triathletes. We do these events for the sheer challenge of finishing them. We survive. That is an honorable and a rare thing. Finishing a half- or full-Ironman puts one in heady company indeed. At what point does a triathlete start training with the "specialists" in each of the disciplines to improve rather than merely survive? I bring this up because I’ve spent the last several years training with and racing with cyclists. If I’m out on a training ride with one of the local teams, there will almost always be two or three riders that can kick my butt pretty much at will. But I live in San Diego, where there are triathletes everywhere. If I hook up with a pod of triathletes out on a training ride, the tables are turned. Even the very fast ones have a hard time dropping me. I even get to do the butt- kicking once in a while. I’m not an elite cyclist. I’m 5′10" and 200+ pounds. It’s a matter of technique. The same thing applies to swimming. I swam competitively for 7 or 8 years as a kid. When I entered my first triathlon, I was surprised at the remarkably inefficient technique many — indeed most — displayed. At what point does technique move beyond simple aerobic endurance? Does one have to be at the elite level simply to consider good technique? I think not. If I can use the same energy to average 22 miles-per-hour a less-experienced cyclist uses to average 19 or 20 miles- per-hour for the cycling leg, I’ll have a 16- to 18-minute lead going into the run (half-ironman distance). That’s significant. Am I missing something here? Why doesn’t technique come into play much earlier in the triathlon "learning curve?" Roger Merrill San Diego, CA

Response:

Technique should be an important part of every triathlete’s training program regardless of ability. Even the top athletes still do drills to work on the skill components of the three sports. Many age groupers don’t work on technique and it shows. I’m not sure why, it is probably a combination of education and not having a coach to critique form or suggest the appropriate drills. Fixing poor form can in most cases be more effective both time wise and energy wise to improve overall race results than simply doing more training. I have an article on skill-based training on my website: www.competitionzone.com Go to the coaching page to find it. Joel Filliol www.competitionzone.com Triathlon Coaching and Consulting.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All the recent discussions about aerodynamics, drafting, and so on have raised a more fundamental question in my mind: At what level do do triathletes get serious about their technique? It occurs to me that a vast majority of us are what I would term "survival" triathletes. We do these events for the sheer challenge of finishing them. We survive. That is an honorable and a rare thing. Finishing a half- or full-Ironman puts one in heady company indeed. At what point does a triathlete start training with the "specialists" in each of the disciplines to improve rather than merely survive? I bring this up because I’ve spent the last several years training with and racing with cyclists. If I’m out on a training ride with one of the local teams, there will almost always be two or three riders that can kick my butt pretty much at will. But I live in San Diego, where there are triathletes everywhere. If I hook up with a pod of triathletes out on a training ride, the tables are turned. Even the very fast ones have a hard time dropping me. I even get to do the butt- kicking once in a while. I’m not an elite cyclist. I’m 5′10" and 200+ pounds. It’s a matter of technique. The same thing applies to swimming. I swam competitively for 7 or 8 years as a kid. When I entered my first triathlon, I was surprised at the remarkably inefficient technique many — indeed most — displayed. At what point does technique move beyond simple aerobic endurance? Does one have to be at the elite level simply to consider good technique? I think not. If I can use the same energy to average 22 miles-per-hour a less-experienced cyclist uses to average 19 or 20 miles- per-hour for the cycling leg, I’ll have a 16- to 18-minute lead going into the run (half-ironman distance). That’s significant. Am I missing something here? Why doesn’t technique come into play much earlier in the triathlon "learning curve?" Roger Merrill San Diego, CA

Response:

Inside every age-grouper is an elite pro trying to get out.  From the outside it may look like we’re slobs, but inside burns the same fire that burns in our Olympians.  We’re all totally serious. But having fun as well. Ray  ’-{

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All the recent discussions about aerodynamics, drafting, and so on have raised a more fundamental question in my mind: At what level do do triathletes get serious about their technique? It occurs to me that a vast majority of us are what I would term "survival" triathletes. We do these events for the sheer challenge of finishing them. We survive. That is an honorable and a rare thing. Finishing a half- or full-Ironman puts one in heady company indeed. At what point does a triathlete start training with the "specialists" in each of the disciplines to improve rather than merely survive? I bring this up because I’ve spent the last several years training with and racing with cyclists. If I’m out on a training ride with one of the local teams, there will almost always be two or three riders that can kick my butt pretty much at will. But I live in San Diego, where there are triathletes everywhere. If I hook up with a pod of triathletes out on a training ride, the tables are turned. Even the very fast ones have a hard time dropping me. I even get to do the butt- kicking once in a while. I’m not an elite cyclist. I’m 5′10" and 200+ pounds. It’s a matter of technique. The same thing applies to swimming. I swam competitively for 7 or 8 years as a kid. When I entered my first triathlon, I was surprised at the remarkably inefficient technique many — indeed most — displayed. At what point does technique move beyond simple aerobic endurance? Does one have to be at the elite level simply to consider good technique? I think not. If I can use the same energy to average 22 miles-per-hour a less-experienced cyclist uses to average 19 or 20 miles- per-hour for the cycling leg, I’ll have a 16- to 18-minute lead going into the run (half-ironman distance). That’s significant. Am I missing something here? Why doesn’t technique come into play much earlier in the triathlon "learning curve?" Roger Merrill San Diego, CA

Response:

Question:

I think you can still get some new TREK’s at a decent price, but its been a few years since I really
message also, stick with your old
bike for a while, make some improvements, see if you’re gonna stick with the sport, then buy a higher end
model.  I road a hand-me down bianchi for 5 years and never complained much. Now on a trek that I got
for 800 in 95, so inflation shouldn’t be that high…    -**** Posted from RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com/?a ****-  Search and Read Usenet Discussions in your Browser – FREE –

Response:

When i first started doing triathlons I used my old steel road bike that weighed a ton.  It was several years before I even put a set of aero bars on it, but it was great to see the improvement in my times just from that. Before I would put down major $$ on a new Tri bike though, I decided to make myself "earn" it by setting a few goals I had to first achieve in races with the old bike.  I committed myself to training hard and improved to where I was passing people with their shiny new $2,000+  racing machines and finally achieved my goal.  The feeling of purchasing that new bike was made that much more special by the knowledge that I had first "earned" it.  It also helped ensure that I was truly committed to first improving the "engine" and not relying on the bike to improve my times. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -June- I started tri’s this season, (done 2) and bought my first bike in May-it’s a Jamis road bike, nothing fancy but it only cost me $600 and I’m paying about $100 per month on it.  I plan on adding to it, like aerobars, new tires, etc…..instead of spending a fortune I don’t have on a racing bike for now.  When I feel it would be worth it to spend money on a good racing bike then I will…if I’m lucky enough to have the money for it that is!!  I do know my bike is a great deal heavier than a lot of the newer fancier bikes I see at these tri’s, but compared to a lot of bikes, mine is great for a beginning tri geek and I am very happy with it.  Once I do get a faster bike in the future, I will always have a reliable training bike in my Jamis so I consider it a great first investment.   Don’t spend more than you have to, get a good fit, that’s what counts more than price right now! I got my bike from KOM cycling here in Lebanon, PA-I know they have a website, just don’t know the address right off the top of my head, I will hunt for the business card and post  it later on today if I can find it. (it stands for King of the Mountain by the way)-they helped me out a great deal!  I don’t know where you are, but I’m sure you will find what you need!!   Good luck!! I ran my first tri over the weekend and loved it. I’ve run several running races but this is 3 times more fun-literally! I like to thank someone I met in this newsgroup who loaned his wetsuit to a total stranger. Thanks to him now I am a triathlete! I have a question about a bike. Is there a specific bike for triathlon or any road bike will do? I just did the race with my old bike but I felt a desperate need for a real bike. There were so many different bikes in the race and I didn’t have anyone to ask. I just browe thru internet stores and looks like there is a thing called time trial bike. What are those? I have a long toruso-does that mean I need a bigger bike (unless make my own frame)? I would like to spend under 1000 dollars for a bike (at least for now). What would you do if you are in my situation? A used bike a good idea? Sorry for asking too many question but any info will be very helpful. Have a nice swimming/biking/running! June (I am a male)

Response:

June- I started tri’s this season, (done 2) and bought my first bike in May-it’s a Jamis road bike, nothing fancy but it only cost me $600 and I’m paying about $100 per month on it.  I plan on adding to it, like aerobars, new tires, etc…..instead of spending a fortune I don’t have on a racing bike for now.  When I feel it would be worth it to spend money on a good racing bike then I will…if I’m lucky enough to have the money for it that is!!  I do know my bike is a great deal heavier than a lot of the newer fancier bikes I see at these tri’s, but compared to a lot of bikes, mine is great for a beginning tri geek and I am very happy with it.  Once I do get a faster bike in the future, I will always have a reliable training bike in my Jamis so I consider it a great first investment.   Don’t spend more than you have to, get a good fit, that’s what counts more than price right now! I got my bike from KOM cycling here in Lebanon, PA-I know they have a website, just don’t know the address right off the top of my head, I will hunt for the business card and post  it later on today if I can find it. (it stands for King of the Mountain by the way)-they helped me out a great deal!  I don’t know where you are, but I’m sure you will find what you need!!   Good luck!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran my first tri over the weekend and loved it. I’ve run several running races but this is 3 times more fun-literally! I like to thank someone I met in this newsgroup who loaned his wetsuit to a total stranger. Thanks to him now I am a triathlete! I have a question about a bike. Is there a specific bike for triathlon or any road bike will do? I just did the race with my old bike but I felt a desperate need for a real bike. There were so many different bikes in the race and I didn’t have anyone to ask. I just browe thru internet stores and looks like there is a thing called time trial bike. What are those? I have a long toruso-does that mean I need a bigger bike (unless make my own frame)? I would like to spend under 1000 dollars for a bike (at least for now). What would you do if you are in my situation? A used bike a good idea? Sorry for asking too many question but any info will be very helpful. Have a nice swimming/biking/running! June (I am a male)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran my first tri over the weekend and loved it. I’ve run several running races but this is 3 times more fun-literally! I like to thank someone I met in this newsgroup who loaned his wetsuit to a total stranger. Thanks to him now I am a triathlete! I have a question about a bike. Is there a specific bike for triathlon or any road bike will do? I just did the race with my old bike but I felt a desperate need for a real bike. There were so many different bikes in the race and I didn’t have anyone to ask. I just browe thru internet stores and looks like there is a thing called time trial bike. What are those? I have a long toruso-does that mean I need a bigger bike (unless make my own frame)? I would like to spend under 1000 dollars for a bike (at least for now). What would you do if you are in my situation? A used bike a good idea? Sorry for asking too many question but any info will be very helpful. Have a nice swimming/biking/running! June (I am a male)

June- First, welcome to the addiction! I mean…the group! Yes, there are tri specific bikes, with slightly different frame angles (The angles at which the tubes join) than road bikes. There are also Track bikes (Single gear), Time trial bikes, etc. If you are just starting, it depends on what your pocketbook will afford. I would take a look at my LBS (Local Bike Store) and see what they have for frames. A good LBS will have a frame fitting station, and for a small fee (Usually discounted off the price of the bike if you buy there) they will tell you what bike dimensions are best for you. For under $1000 it isnt too likely you can get a new one (Unless you catch a good sale). Ask the LBS if there is a Tri-club in the area, a lot of people will be selling old and buying new (SEE: Rick Denney, Brian Wagner, Jimmy Strebler). Also, look at the newsgroup rec.bicycles.marketplace, just get a few references from the people there. And once again, welcome to the wonderful world of the certifiable! (Uhm…I mean…Triathlete!) John "Ad astra per aspera" "A rough road leads to the stars"

Response:

You are better off getting a $1000 new bike that fits or find a used one that’s in your price range. 2 bikes you can look at new are either the Softride Windshear or the Elite S-6 Bike. You can give me a call and I’ll get you some info. STeve’s Multisport 1.610.275.4010 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran my first tri over the weekend and loved it. I’ve run several running races but this is 3 times more fun-literally! I like to thank someone I met in this newsgroup who loaned his wetsuit to a total stranger. Thanks to him now I am a triathlete! I have a question about a bike. Is there a specific bike for triathlon or any road bike will do? I just did the race with my old bike but I felt a desperate need for a real bike. There were so many different bikes in the race and I didn’t have anyone to ask. I just browe thru internet stores and looks like there is a thing called time trial bike. What are those? I have a long toruso-does that mean I need a bigger bike (unless make my own frame)? I would like to spend under 1000 dollars for a bike (at least for now). What would you do if you are in my situation? A used bike a good idea? Sorry for asking too many question but any info will be very helpful. Have a nice swimming/biking/running! June (I am a male)

  steves.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

I ran my first tri over the weekend and loved it. I’ve run several running races but this is 3 times more fun-literally! I like to thank someone I met in this newsgroup who loaned his wetsuit to a total stranger. Thanks to him now I am a triathlete! I have a question about a bike. Is there a specific bike for triathlon or any road bike will do? I just did the race with my old bike but I felt a desperate need for a real bike. There were so many different bikes in the race and I didn’t have anyone to ask. I just browe thru internet stores and looks like there is a thing called time trial bike. What are those? I have a long toruso-does that mean I need a bigger bike (unless make my own frame)? I would like to spend under 1000 dollars for a bike (at least for now). What would you do if you are in my situation? A used bike a good idea? Sorry for asking too many question but any info will be very helpful. Have a nice swimming/biking/running! June (I am a male)

Response:

Question:

Can someone clear this up for me. Is there going to be an IRONMAN Florida? When? What does that do to GFT? Does it affect what happens in May at the GCT in Panama City Beach? Thanks

Question #1: yes Question #2: November ‘99 Question #3: Too soon to tell.  GFT’99 is on. Question #4: Too soon to tell.  GCT ‘99 is on; no word on GCT ‘00.

Response:

Can someone clear this up for me. Is there going to be an IRONMAN Florida? When? What does that do to GFT? Does it affect what happens in May at the GCT in Panama City Beach? Thanks

Response:

HEy dude I guess you got that e-mail from Todd…..I am very intrested in any information RST might have! jimmy cheshier

Response:

Can someone clear this up for me. Is there going to be an IRONMAN Florida?

Jose,  this is the last it was mentioned in the Panama City media: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 Ironman: Bay’s marathon efforts drawing praise  JIM OBERDIER The News Herald If Monday morning’s meeting serves as an indicator, Bay County officials won’t need to worry about community support for the proposed Ironman Florida event in Panama City Beach. About 25 community leaders turned out at the Panama City Beaches Chamber of Commerce to discuss the county’s ability to conduct a successful Ironman event in November – a 2.4-mile swim, a 112-mile bike ride and 26.2-mile run. "I was highly impressed with the turnout," said Jerry Lynch, Gulf Coast Triathlon executive director. "Lynn Haven, Panama City, Panama City Beach, the sheriff’s office and others were all at the meeting based just on a phone call. "All in all, it’s a five-year contract (to host the Ironman), so it’s five years of national and international media. Nothing but good can come out of this for Bay County as far as our exposure. We are shooting now to close the contract in mid-January." Bay County emerged along with Orlando and Daytona Beach as the three contenders to host Ironman Florida. Monday’s meeting left those in attendance confident that Bay County will get Florida’s qualifying event, which would be known as Ironman Florida Panama City Beach. "All the mayors, city commissioners and TDC (Tourist Development Council) people, they were all impressed with what Ironman can do for us," said Dave Walby, GCT Foundation chairman. "They weren’t as impressed by the dollars involved as they were with the image and what it would do for us. Everybody was on the same boat. No one was saying ‘What’s in it for me or my city or my restaurant?’ "It was really a good community group. I think we will be able to work out a deal." Representatives from the TDC and the Bay County Sheriff’s Office were key. "There was an energy in the room that was exciting," Lynch said. "One of the biggest things stated by (TDC Chairman) Reggie Lancaster was it’s not the financial that’s important, it’s what an image builder this can be. "Right now, the determining factors are the Ironman people realize we have the experience. They like our venue being on the beach. They like the courses – of maybe running through the state park. It comes down to the financial end of it. That’s the only factor left to work out." Lynch wasn’t the only person in attendance pleased with the meeting. Graham Fraser, who co-owns the licensing rights to Ironman events, spent this weekend in Bay County surveying the area. He left Monday’s meeting pleased, but he stopped short of declaring Bay County the frontrunner. "It was a very positive meeting – it was very proactive," Fraser said. "We would be very encouraged having it here. "We can be the big event here. Sometimes we go into a bigger city, and there will be three other big events that weekend." Fraser was shown the proposed bike course up State 79 across State 20 to U.S. 231 and back, and the beach area that would serve the marathon. In addition to the positive exposure for Bay County, there’s Ironman Florida’s estimated $15 million local economic impact. With the event slated for November, it would give restaurants and hotels a tremendous boost during a slack period. "I don’t get a lot of business in May out of the (Gulf Coast) Triathlon," said Reggie Lancaster, who also owns the Flamingo Motel in Panama City Beach. "I think I would get some business out of the Ironman since it’s bigger. It’ll put heads in beds. The consensus I got was for the community to get this. It’s going to take more than just money. But I think if we can get the financial backing, we’ll get it." When?

Right before Thanksgiving seems the best guess.  Everybody is waiting for a Tri-Sport Promotions press conference. What does that do to GFT?

Probably very little.  Both should be easy sellouts.  Lake Placid Ironman filled up almost immediately.  It appears there’ll be a 4 week lapse between the two. Does it affect what happens in May at the GCT in Panama City Beach? Thanks

I would think not.  The GCT is too well established.  Fred Sommer may want to consider a spring GFT about the time the GCT is held – if he has more ironman types than he can handle around Halloween.  :-) The proposed Panama City Ironman bike course is interesting.  They plan to just make a larger loop than the old GCT course up 231 to 20 to 79.  A strong wind could add a challenge. Look for the press conference, Jose.  Stan Clark,

Response:

Question:

diagnosed w/ meniscus tear in right knee.  dr said i could begin light stationary cycling immediately, swimming in 10 days, & running in 4 weeks.  i would appreciate comments from anyone who has been subject to this procedure, ie, describe your recovery & how long did it take you to get back to running?  thanks. cajunman

Response:

I had the same problem a year ago. I came back too soon and injured my knee again. The second time I did stationary bike for about four weeks and strenghtening exercises for the muscles around the knee, but no weights. After about six weeks I started to run again with little problems but occcasional soreness if I don’t rest. For me the treadmill makes my knee hurt but actual running doesn’t.                                  TJK Tim K.

Response:

diagnosed w/ meniscus tear in right knee.  dr said i could begin light stationary cycling immediately, swimming in 10 days, & running in 4 weeks. <snip

I had the same problem. The doctor told me not to run for 4 months. He said biking and swimming were OK. That would strengthen the muscles around the knee and help prevent a reoccurrence. The doctor recommended against surgery because I am young enough (32) that removing any cartilage would be worse in the long run. That pretty much ended my triathlon season before it got started this year. How frustrating! Good luck,Paul

Response:

These posts are interesting.  (I hoped there would be more discussion, however. I have been diagnosed with a meniscus tear and I am about to see some surgeons for  consultation.  I assumed they  would all recommend surgery.  Is this not the case?  Have people recovered from this injury without surgery?  (The tear is still there,  presumably.)  If you don’t have surgery, what happens? OTOH, if you  do have the surgery, what happens?  What kind of recovery have people experienced who have had arthroscopic surgery?  How long does it take, do you have to use a cane, etc.? I should add  that I am 53 and have been running for 21 years. Lenore Beaky

Response:

I had surgery on wednesday. The Dr. trimmed away the inner tear and smoothed the bones. ( That’s what my wife said. I was out.) I had planned to run a 5K on Oct. 31st. The Dr. told me not to put ANY weight on it and to keep it elevated until I see him on Tues. He told my wife that I would not be running for 6 weeks minimum. I knew it would be a while but I was hoping that it would be more like 2-3 weeks. Of course right now I would settle for walking. I fear I may let my teammates down in the race. I’ll have very little time to train at this rate ( If I can make it at all). We were to do a Tri in Nov. I was to do the bike leg. I think I’ll make that. Any one else want to share recovery times and suggestions? Wayne

Response:

: I had surgery on wednesday. The Dr. trimmed away the inner tear and… : I had planned to run a 5K on Oct. 31st…. : I knew it would be a while but I was hoping that it would be more like : 2-3 weeks…. : I fear I may let my teammates down in the race. I’ll have very little : time to train at this rate ( If I can make it at all). We were to do a : Tri in Nov. I was to do the bike leg. I think I’ll make that. : Any one else want to share recovery times and suggestions? First suggestion.  Don’t take this the wrong way, but don’t be an idiot. You’ll be much worse off pushing it and hurting yourself than telling your teammates to shove it.  In fact, if they really were your friends, they would be encouraging you not to run and not putting any pressure on you.  So much for the opinion…  Now some anecdotal data. I had "exploratory" arthoscopy once (and never again) since the quack- excuse me, doctor- couldn’t figure out what was wrong.  Since he was in there with nothing to do, he ripped out a plica.  I was relatively young (28?)  and in great shape before the surgery.  The bozo kicked me out the door with not much advice other than "ride a bike a lot".  Lots of pain and swelling.  If I recall right, the surgery was in May, and by late June I ran a relatively slow two mile race on the track, and in late July ran a decent mile. A year later I had another surgery that actually fixed the problem. This time I had a good doctor who properly diagnosed the problem (scar tissue on the patellar tendon from smacking my knee on the edge of a desk), and he cleaned it out.  That surgery was in March, and I think I was almost full speed by July. Most relevant data: I had a meniscus tear trimmed in June of 1992. Again, I was in pretty good shape going into the surgery.  Less than a week after the surgery I was spinning an exercise bike at 80 rpm with no load.  About 4 weeks later I was going a few gentle, few minute runs on a treadmill.  I ran on a track the first time, 800 meters very slowly, in late July.  In October (I think) I ran a slow but not embarrassing 10k. So, 6 weeks to first run seems about right.  3 to 4 months to getting to the point where you are in out of shape shape is what I think you might expect.  I would recommend doing standard cross training stuff if you want to get back as soon as you can: biking and swimming.  Do as much as you can to keep your cardiovascular up, and then all you’ll need to do is train the legs. -pfrench

Response:

Question:

It’s likely in your 75 lbs of fat loss you actually lost some muscle as well.  Losing weight usually consists of a combination of fat, muscle, and probably water.

I have lost one pound per month for several years and overall 50 pounds.  I have more muscle than when I started.  I would suggest measuring body fat as one way of distinguishing the losses.  There are some highly rate calipers on the market. My suggestion for weight management would be to lift first and gain muscle. Follow this by running   Power before endurance is the idea.  The muscle mass gain is not good for competitive racers, I would think, but if that is not a priority then I would not worry about it. At the same time more muscle mass will grab more of the incoming calories from the fat cells. but i think the main key for not burning muscle is to make sure you get lots of protein (and a variety of it)

Why? I have read repeatedly that protein for muscles is overrated.  My guess is that one must never get into the starvation mode to avoid losing muscle.  I learned this by repeated fasting for a day years ago.  The result was a spiraling upward of weight. Bob

Response:

I have lost one pound per month for several years and overall 50 pounds.  I have more muscle than when I started.  I would suggest measuring body fat as one way of distinguishing the losses.  There are some highly rate calipers on the market.

        the caliper is merely a tool that must be used by a trained person to get the most accurate results possible.  There are a lot of guitars on the market as well, but you do not want one in my hands.

Response:

I have lost one pound per month for several years and overall 50 pounds.  I have more muscle than when I started.  I would suggest measuring body fat as one way of distinguishing the losses.  There are some highly rate calipers on the market.    the caliper is merely a tool that must be used by a trained person to get the most accurate results possible.  There are a lot of guitars on the market as well, but you do not want one in my hands.

Well one of the Climbing magazines did a test with "Accu-Measure" and found that it was rather accurate.  They used it themselves and compared it to a more precise professional water measurement. On the other hand, I found the directions for exact measurement spots in exact.  I guess if you just keep measuring in the same place(s) at least you have consistency. Bob

Response:

       the caliper is merely a tool that must be used by a trained person to get the most accurate results possible.  There are a lot of guitars on the market as well, but you do not want one in my hands. Well one of the Climbing magazines did a test with "Accu-Measure" and found that it was rather accurate.  They used it themselves and compared it to a more precise professional water measurement.

I don’t really think the "professional water measurement" (i.e. those bathtub type things? ) are that accurate either. they may get similar results as caliper measurements, but caliper measurements are not that aaccurate so it’s not a question of the calipers being accepted as accurate because they get the same readings as a tub, but more likely that the tub is NOT as accurate as it gets the same BF% calculation as the calipers now we’re talking about BF% calculation.  Calipers can be quite accurate as far as mm readings when pinching, but it’s when you plug it into the equation that you might get errors caliper measurements are not necessarily accurate .  They are most accurate when you use the calipers which were used in the development of whatever BF% equation you are using to calculate your BF% e.g. if you use the "FOOBAR" BF& equation which tells you to take 3 differepnt spot measurements and you plug those into the equation to get your bodyfat, and in the develpment of this equation they used the FOOBARBAR brand calipers, then your chacnes of getting an accurate reading is increased if you use the same calipers also. the water tub measurements can be thrown off depending on what time of day it is and how bloated you are..etc..etc.. .. just like how those scales which supposedly send electrical impulses through your body can also be way off depending on what your body chemistry happens to be at that very moment it’s much better just to get readings using calipers in milimeters and then comparing those to each other rather than computing the BF%.  Like instead of saying "my bf% went from 10% to 9%" you can say "My waist pinch went from 11mm to 9mm"..etc..etc.. just stuff i’ve read from the lowcarb mailing list (whose members thrive on this stuff) I guess if you just keep measuring in the same place(s) at least you have consistency.

This is the key… consistency, not accuracy. -ben

Response:

I missed the beginning of this thread, but let me ask a question. I run/jog/walk for approx 6-7 miles or stairmaster for 1 hr 6x week.  I lost 75 lbs of fat doing this while watching my caloric intake, and basically eating much healthier.  After my hour of cardio I hit the weights for approx another hour 4x week. Although I’m quite lean (5′7", 155 lbs, 31W) and toned, am I burning muscle was well as fat?  I’m

Whenever you exercise, you pretty much burn a combination of glycogen stored in the msucle and fat (more glycogen then fat). when you don’t eat enough protein and don’t have enough amino acids present (i think, something like this) then it will start rippping them from your muscle tissue, hence the need for protein to help stop or slow lean body mass (LBM ) deterioration. It’s likely in your 75 lbs of fat loss you actually lost some muscle as well.  Losing weight usually consists of a combination of fat, muscle, and probably water. now what i said above should be true for pretty much any kind of exercise.  the combinations of fat/glycogen/protein used will probably vary depending on heart rate and type of exercise. but i think the main key for not burning muscle is to make sure you get lots of protein (and a variety of it) actually up approx 10-12 lbs since about 2 months ago.  I started the creatine thing and gained muscle (as well as fat because of my eating habits) Since I quit a month ago I have only lost about 2 lbs. Has my

creatine weight gain is also lots of water.  your muscle tissue will retain more water than normal … and when you say "since i quit" do you mean quit taking creatine?  quit cardio?  quit weights? body found a setpoint?  Is the weight training doing something all of a sudden? (Beside the creatine made me able to lift at least 20 lbs heavier on machines). Everybody says that I look better at this weight, and I was too thin before.  But they have said that when I was first beginning to loose my 75 lbs. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

your body will have some sticking points, but that’ mostly because results are fastest when starting out and slow down .. so you progres may have slowed down in which case you would need to employ other workout practices to help your body continue to do whatever you want it to do.  .. anyway, the key is use a scale as a measure of fitness level.  Muscle weights more than fat and esp at the start of any progrma your weight will probably go in directions you never even thought of that may be discouraging, coutnerintuitive, or just plain confusing.  go by how you feel and how you look.   since quitting runing for the last 4 to 5 weeks my weight has gone up 3 or 4 lbs and it’s probably not that much fat either :  (okay maybe a little) -ben

Response:

exactly…  but the thing is, if you’re not used to running 15 miles a day since you were 10 years old in 90 degree weather, you’re going to have to make up for it somehow.  lifting modertely will help but don’t try to do any big build up or you will suffer more.  i think 3 sets of 12 at 60% of your max for almost anything is good… or at least i think that was what i was lifting when i used to compete. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to know if anyone can recommend any weight training excercises that can help runners improve their leg strength and speed. I I run four times a week and do weight training twice a week. I really recommend squats and lunges for leg strength. They are very effective exercises and don’t require any machines or equipment. Start out with light weights and gradually work up. I do three sets of each with 15-20 reps.  For runners, it is best to do lighter weights and more reps (unless you are a sprinter). I also do a lot of upper body work. I can’t stand it when I see runners with a skinny upper body. You need to work the upper body to be in proportion. Start with basic exercises like bech presses, bicep curls, and tricep extensions. As you become a more experienced weight lifter, you can add other exercises. And– don’t forget plain old push ups and sit ups. I do those every day-no matter what. They are very effective exercises. Hope this was helpful. Happy weight lifting!! ; ) Hey you guys have hit upon a way to help American runners keep up with the Kenyan runners. Let’s introduce them to weight training so they can bulk up their skinny bodies. That should slow them down enough that even American runners would be able to keep up!

–

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip I can’t argue with your personal experiences however it is a fact that muscle weighs more than other tissue types (say fat).  Everything I’ve read says to gain strength beyond a certain (beginners) point you must increase muscle mass which necessarily implies an increase in LBM. Perhaps you were losing fat at the same time you were gaining muscle thus your weight held constant. Sure, thats great – I can see why a triathlete would want upper-body strength (as opposed to a pure runner).  Might I suggest that you try the more typical 8 reps/set max for upper-body work.  If you can do more than 8 reps before failure you need to increase the weight next time. That’s conventional wisdom for body-builders, not endurance athletes. The point is emphatically not to build bulk, which is what doing high weight/low reps does. Its actually conventional wisdom for powerlifters as well whose sole point is to increase strength (as opposed to body builders who are trying to increase mass).     High rep/Low weight weightlifting causes lactic acid buildup which is different than muscle failure caused by Low Rep/High weight lifting.   While I would guess that you can train your muscles to deal with the lactic acid better by doing HR/LW, the best way to increase strength is to overload the muscles with more weight than they are capable of handling and achieve muscle failure.  

I missed the beginning of this thread, but let me ask a question. I run/jog/walk for approx 6-7 miles or stairmaster for 1 hr 6x week.  I lost 75 lbs of fat doing this while watching my caloric intake, and basically eating much healthier.  After my hour of cardio I hit the weights for approx another hour 4x week. Although I’m quite lean (5′7", 155 lbs, 31W) and toned, am I burning muscle was well as fat?  I’m actually up approx 10-12 lbs since about 2 months ago.  I started the creatine thing and gained muscle (as well as fat because of my eating habits) Since I quit a month ago I have only lost about 2 lbs. Has my body found a setpoint?  Is the weight training doing something all of a sudden? (Beside the creatine made me able to lift at least 20 lbs heavier on machines). Everybody says that I look better at this weight, and I was too thin before.  But they have said that when I was first beginning to loose my 75 lbs. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Mark

Response:

Weight training does not have to bulk up bodies.  Rock climbers do resistance training the is very similar to weight training, and they are not bulky, for example.

Unless you are genetically inclined, weight training doesn’t bulk up with out special diet or drugs.  That is the sorrow of most high school boys.

Response:

I would like to know if anyone can recommend any weight training excercises that can help runners improve their leg strength and speed.

FWIW I’m a ‘non-believer’. If you want to improve as a RUNNER, *I’m* far from convinced that a concerted effort to improve your max squat is the way to go. Others put great store by their weight training as a way to improve their running times. Total Body Conditioning IS likely to be of indirect benefit to you as a runner, much in the same way as regular stretching. I’m no expert on this but here’s what I do twice weekly: I use an exercise for each major muscle group:   Chest – bench press and/or press ups   Lats 1 – wide-grip pull ups (behind+front of neck) (you’ll probably need a machine to start)   Lats 2 – seated rowing   Shoulders – shoulder press (alternate behind/front of neck)   Biceps – curls   Triceps – arm extensions   Legs – lunges or step ups (both holding 10 Kg) For these I do 3 sets of 8-10 reps (probably should go lighter and 12-15 reps). 60s recovery between sets. Save time with ’super-set’ if feeling strong e.g.:   pull-up while recovering from shoulder press and vice versa   arm extension while recovering from curl and vice versa. In addition you’ll want:   Abs – crunches (part of daily stretching program) (NOT situps!!)   Lower Back – torso extensions (not Hyper-extensions).   Miles —  "Focus. Relaxed Form. Stay smooth. Flow. Breathe."   – gapo ‘98 Cut the .europe if you prefer to reply by email

Response:

Hey you guys have hit upon a way to help American runners keep up with the Kenyan runners. Let’s introduce them to weight training so they can bulk up their skinny bodies. That should slow them down enough that even American runners would be able to keep up Weight training does not have to bulk up bodies.  Rock climbers do resistance training the is very similar to weight training, and they are not bulky, for example. True but I think the point is that any upper-body weight training will add weight (if not bulk) since muscle is very dense/heavy compared to other tissue.  

I haven’t found that. I tend to do 3 sets of 15-20 reps each, and if anything, the excess energy use has helped me lose weight in the form of body fat. I’m not saying it’s made me faster, but I think it’s made me less injury prone, which means I can train harder, which makes me faster. IMHO the negatives exceed the positives for upper-body weight training by competitive runners.  

I’m a triathlete, so I’m a little more interested in developing upper body strength for swimming. -Ekr — [Eric Rescorla                             Terisa Systems, Inc.]                 "Put it in the top slot."

Response:

I haven’t found that. I tend to do 3 sets of 15-20 reps each, and if anything, the excess energy use has helped me lose weight in the form of body fat. Not trying to disagree with you but if you are weight training correctly you will put on muscle mass which will add weight.

What can I do but report my experience? I’m 6′ and my weight floats between 155 and 160 lbs. It’s been my experience that when I lift, it tends to push my weight towards the bottom half of the range. If you stress the muscle properly it will grow, otherwise it will not and there isn’t much point to it.   With muscle, there is no in-between, it either grows or it doesn’t.

If you say so. When I lift, I notice performance improvements, so obviously it’s doing something. On the other hand, I’m not gaining weight. If you just want to burn calories there are many more efficient ways to do so, using weight training as an aerobic workout isn’t the best use of your time.

I’m not using weight training as an aerobic workout. I’m using it to build up muscle strength in order to prevent injury. On an easy week, I put in upwards of 10 hours of conventional training (I.e. swim/bike/run) in addition to strength training. I’m not particularly interested in intentionally burning more calories. I was simply observing that lifting seemed to result in some weight loss (for me). I’m a triathlete, so I’m a little more interested in developing upper body strength for swimming. Sure, thats great – I can see why a triathlete would want upper-body strength (as opposed to a pure runner).  Might I suggest that you try the more typical 8 reps/set max for upper-body work.  If you can do more than 8 reps before failure you need to increase the weight next time.

That’s conventional wisdom for body-builders, not endurance athletes. The point is emphatically not to build bulk, which is what doing high weight/low reps does. -Ekr — [Eric Rescorla                             Terisa Systems, Inc.]                 "Put it in the top slot."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to know if anyone can recommend any weight training excercises that can help runners improve their leg strength and speed. I I run four times a week and do weight training twice a week. I really recommend squats and lunges for leg strength. They are very effective exercises and don’t require any machines or equipment. Start out with light weights and gradually work up. I do three sets of each with 15-20 reps.  For runners, it is best to do lighter weights and more reps (unless you are a sprinter). I also do a lot of upper body work. I can’t stand it when I see runners with a skinny upper body. You need to work the upper body to be in proportion. Start with basic exercises like bech presses, bicep curls, and tricep extensions. As you become a more experienced weight lifter, you can add other exercises. And– don’t forget plain old push ups and sit ups. I do those every day-no matter what. They are very effective exercises. Hope this was helpful. Happy weight lifting!! ; )

Hey you guys have hit upon a way to help American runners keep up with the Kenyan runners. Let’s introduce them to weight training so they can bulk up their skinny bodies. That should slow them down enough that even American runners would be able to keep up!

Response:

I would like to know if anyone can recommend any weight training excercises that can help runners improve their leg strength and speed. I specifically would like to condition my legs for trail & hill running. I’ve looked around and haven’t been able to find anything on this subject. Thanks for any information you can provide on this.

My $.02: Power helps endurance, so I would consider some building to some heavy weights.  This will also increase tendon strength.   Nautilus 1 set of 12 each – these will also protect your knees The first two reps should be done slowly and the last two should be almost impossible. Hams Curls and Quad Raises Leg Abduction and Leg Adduction Hip Press Calf raises on one foot at a time while holding a dumbell Shin exercise – sit on ham curl machine with feet under roller Some plyometric drills immediately after the leg work set  should help the speed factors. Add some sort of a torso and upper body workout to keep balanced Luck, Bob

Response:

I would like to know if anyone can recommend any weight training excercises that can help runners improve their leg strength and speed. I

I run four times a week and do weight training twice a week. I really recommend squats and lunges for leg strength. They are very effective exercises and don’t require any machines or equipment. Start out with light weights and gradually work up. I do three sets of each with 15-20 reps.  For runners, it is best to do lighter weights and more reps (unless you are a sprinter). I also do a lot of upper body work. I can’t stand it when I see runners with a skinny upper body. You need to work the upper body to be in proportion. Start with basic exercises like bech presses, bicep curls, and tricep extensions. As you become a more experienced weight lifter, you can add other exercises. And– don’t forget plain old push ups and sit ups. I do those every day-no matter what. They are very effective exercises. Hope this was helpful. Happy weight lifting!! ; )

Response:

I would like to know if anyone can recommend any weight training excercises that can help runners improve their leg strength and speed. I specifically would like to condition my legs for trail & hill running. I’ve looked around and haven’t been able to find anything on this subject. Thanks for any information you can provide on this.

The FAQ on wieght training for runers is archived at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ejk4e/liftrun1./txt I have been getting good results lately from a mixture of squats (4 sets of 12, done at a weight that works me hard) to parallel, Stiff-Legged Dead Lifts for my hams, and the usual leg extension, leg curl, and calf raise.  Of these the squat and the calf raise are the most important. Remember, though, that training is specific.  For better leg strengh your best bet is to run hill repeats or do your long runs on a hilly course.  For leg speed run a dozen or so 200 meter repeats at a pace that is faster than you plan to race but not so fast that it becomes a hard workout. Good luck with it. — Edward J. Kilsdonk           Look, ytte is written in Olde.  It muste Graduate Student, History    bee fromme before they invented fpelling. Univerfity of Virginia                          

Response:

Hey you guys have hit upon a way to help American runners keep up with the Kenyan runners. Let’s introduce them to weight training so they can bulk up their skinny bodies. That should slow them down enough that even American runners would be able to keep up

Weight training does not have to bulk up bodies.  Rock climbers do resistance training the is very similar to weight training, and they are not bulky, for example. Bob

Response:

I would like to know if anyone can recommend any weight training excercises that can help runners improve their leg strength and speed. I specifically would like to condition my legs for trail & hill running. I’ve looked around and haven’t been able to find anything on this subject. Thanks for any information you can provide on this.

Response:

Question:

ok… this is obscene.  I’ve looked everywhere for it.  Nowhere seems to antsy when I don’t get enough proper reading material….  Has anyone else not been able to find it???  Any info?? Thanks in Advance,             Salvador Santolucito III

Response:

I can’t find one either.  I was thinking we just had crapy news stands here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ok… this is obscene.  I’ve looked everywhere for it.  Nowhere seems to antsy when I don’t get enough proper reading material….  Has anyone else not been able to find it???  Any info?? Thanks in Advance,             Salvador Santolucito III

Response:

It looks to me as the folks at tri mag are having some financial difficulties, though they deny it.  The "Ironman Preview" edition got to me the day after Ironman last year.  When I called them to discuss it they simply couldn’t explain.  The funny thing was that my local grocery store that always has it right when it hits the stands didn’t have it yet either.  I’ve also noticed less content over the past few months.  If it weren’t one of the few descent sources of info (printed, monthly) I’d cancel my subscription. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ok… this is obscene.  I’ve looked everywhere for it.  Nowhere seems to antsy when I don’t get enough proper reading material….  Has anyone else not been able to find it???  Any info?? Thanks in Advance,             Salvador Santolucito III

Response:

ok… this is obscene.  I’ve looked everywhere for it.  Nowhere seems to antsy when I don’t get enough proper reading material….  Has anyone else not been able to find it???  Any info?? Thanks in Advance,             Salvador Santolucito III

Why don’t you e-mail the magazine yourself? — Jeffrey Justice Oceanside, CA Oceanside, CA

Response:

ok… this is obscene.  I’ve looked everywhere for it.  Nowhere seems to antsy when I don’t get enough proper reading material….  Has anyone else not been able to find it???  Any info?? Thanks in Advance,             Salvador Santolucito III

I saw the new Triathlete Mag on the newstands in Ca. , but I have not received my issue and I am a subscriber. I am also wondering about finances and such. Triathlete was publishing Winning and I haven’t received that issue either!

Response:

Sounds like Triathlete magazine is taking advantage of their near monopoly position in the field of triathlon info.  I paid for my subscription in early november and I’m STILL getting "unpaid account" notices from them (even after sending some furious e-mails to their customer service). Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for the issues to start arriving — 6 months after I subscribed!  Remember those Power Bar samples they promised to new subscribers?  They exist only in "Triathlete’s" imagination.  I don’t care any more that they’re the only mag — I’m cancelling anyway out of principle.

Response:

Question:

If you make the weight you should be able to race with "the big people" I am a 225+ clydesdale and I race 17-20 times a year. The Gatorade Series has a 225+ division which allows me to compete with my peers. Now even though us "fat guys" have built in wetsuits giving us an unfair advantage over the elites we pay out price by starting in the last wave in races like the St. Anthonys. An 8:00am start means an 1030-1100am finish for most of the clydesdales. Which means the chop in Tampa Bay has picked up and even in April the temps hit 85 by 10am. We train as hard as anyone and we compete as hard as anyone, we should have the opportunity to be recognized and have a Clydesdale Division in the rankings and in the Ironman races.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There should be a hight restriction,  if your 6′5" and 200lbs, your not  a clydesdale. when I started training last year I was 5′10" and 200lbs, now that sounds more like clydesdale stats to me Absolutely disagree! Folks, Clydesdale ain’t the ‘Fat Guy" division.  I have been racing in this division for 3 years.  I went 2:21.32 at an Olympic distance race recently..  I would have placed me 7th in the 35-39 age group.  As it was, I took second in Clydesdale.  I don’t view Clydesdale as something to escape, or graduate from, like Weight Watchers. There are many, many extremely fit people in the triathlon world that aren’t the stereotypical triathlete morph.  It is fun to compete against people of your basic size, just like wrestling. I am 6′ 1", 205, and revel in my size.  It is a hoot to compete against smaller athletes, and still be able to do okay.

Then I wrote – I agree with both of you, if that’s possible. Tim says he is 6′1", 205, I would call that a Clydesdale.  I’m 6′4", 190-195, and although I could race in some Clydesdale divisions (especially in some running races that had a 185-200 category), I haven’t.  I do like the wrestling analogy, but for me, I’ll suffer along as a MOP in the age group category, and leave the Clydesdale division to those who by birth are tall, large boned, and more muscular than me  :).   And I’ll get to find out how tough Wildflower Long Course is on May 3. George

Response:

Yes, yes, yes. I rode the Wildflower long course two weeks ago on a training ride with a friend. He is 6-2, and weighs 170. I’m 6-0, and weigh 192. He’s about 10% bodyfat, and I’m about 12%. What makes me weigh more? An 8-inch wrist, XXL gloves that are too small, size 14 (or 15) shoes, and a bone structure to match. Nightmare? Not quite. But my friend roasted me on the hills, especially THE HILL (you know, mile 42, where your view of Lake San Antonio climbs from subterrainean to stratospheric). We heavier guys suffer on the hills. I carry 22 more pounds than my friend, but the vital capacity of my lungs is the same. Even with the same oxygen uptake efficiency (dreaming on my part), he will roast me. The little guys with the big lungs and the high power/weight ratio always have an advantage, and it increases with steepness. I’d like to see (or maybe I wouldn’t) one of those little guys run a 16-minute 5k wearing my Size 14 Brooks Beasts, which easily weigh twice what his shoes weigh. I’m aften accused of bothering with bike weight when my own weight is so much more vast. Only amputation would lower my bodyweight significantly, but it only takes dollars to make the bike lighter. Of course, the expenditure of dollars on the bike by the typical tri-geek helps with diet as well–no money left for food. <snip In any case, have fun racing, and see you at Wildflower Long Course. (Which, incidentally, is arguably a clydes’ worst nightmare!) Tim Jonas Major of Marines

–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, yes, yes. I rode the Wildflower long course two weeks ago on a training ride with a friend. He is 6-2, and weighs 170. I’m 6-0, and weigh 192. He’s about 10% bodyfat, and I’m about 12%. What makes me weigh more? An 8-inch wrist, XXL gloves that are too small, size 14 (or 15) shoes, and a bone structure to match. <snip In any case, have fun racing, and see you at Wildflower Long Course. (Which, incidentally, is arguably a clydes’ worst nightmare!) Tim Jonas Major of Marines —

Try standing about 5′8" and lugging 215 lbs around (the legacy of a dozen years of powerlifting before getting into triathlon)!!! TriMilo

Response:

There should be a hight restriction,  if your 6′5" and 200lbs, your not  a clydesdale. when I started training last year I was 5′10" and 200lbs, now that sounds more like clydesdale stats to me

Response:

There should be a hight restriction,  if your 6′5" and 200lbs, your not  a clydesdale. when I started training last year I was 5′10" and 200lbs, now that sounds more like clydesdale stats to me

Absolutely disagree! Folks, Clydesdale ain’t the ‘Fat Guy" division.  I have been racing in this division for 3 years.  I went 2:21.32 at an Olympic distance race recently..  I would have placed me 7th in the 35-39 age group.  As it was, I took second in Clydesdale.  I don’t view Clydesdale as something to escape, or graduate from, like Weight Watchers. There are many, many extremely fit people in the triathlon world that aren’t the stereotypical triathlete morph.  It is fun to compete against people of your basic size, just like wrestling. I am 6′ 1", 205, and revel in my size.  It is a hoot to compete against smaller athletes, and still be able to do okay.   Clydes, don’t be embarassed to compete in this division.  As they say in hoops, you can’t coach height and strength.  They are a gift. In any case, have fun racing, and see you at Wildflower Long Course. (Which, incidentally, is arguably a clydes’ worst nightmare!) Tim Jonas Major of Marines

Response:

Wow – I weigh about 185 (trying to get back to 175) and I sure feel like I should be a Clydesdale!  No offense to anyone – I’m just pretty sure I’d get my ass kicked by most of you who fit the "range" – and I have to compete against the "light" guys!  Guess I better get back to work … Tom Larwa  Most of us Clydesdales only dream of 185 lbs….I’d be a friggin’ skeleton at that weight ’cause o’ my frame.  God bless the mesomorphs! Chaz

WHAT’S 185????   THAT’S A NUMBER THAT’S NOT IN MY VOCABULARY…IS HE SPEAKING ENGLISH???ERIC

Response:

Wow – I weigh about 185 (trying to get back to 175) and I sure feel like I should be a Clydesdale!  No offense to anyone – I’m just pretty sure I’d get my ass kicked by most of you who fit the "range" – and I have to compete against the "light" guys!  Guess I better get back to work … Tom Larwa

 Most of us Clydesdales only dream of 185 lbs….I’d be a friggin’ skeleton at that weight ’cause o’ my frame.  God bless the mesomorphs! Chaz

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I suppose this has already been covered, but what are the Clydesdale qualifications.  Weight and/or size?  What weight? Generally: Men = 200 pounds and up Women = 150 pounds and up I’ve seen the numbers vary somewhat at a few races, but these are the standards I’ve usually seen. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie

Wow – I weigh about 185 (trying to get back to 175) and I sure feel like I should be a Clydesdale!  No offense to anyone – I’m just pretty sure I’d get my ass kicked by most of you who fit the "range" – and I have to compete against the "light" guys!  Guess I better get back to work … Tom Larwa

Response:

35, female, 160 pounds, 5′10", even have big feet, very happy about this clydesdale thing.  Any way I can help? Ruth

Response:

I have a follow-on question regarding Clydesdales.  If a tri race has a Clydesdale division, are Clydesdales allowed to medal or place on the non-Clydesdale division?  

No.  If you register Clydesdale, you compete Clydesdale.  You cannot compete in multiple divisions at one time.  You must choose to go age group or Clydesdale. Is there a weigh-in?  

At some races, yes; at some races, no.  The only race where I recall always being weighed in is Vineman. Does one voluntarily enter the Clydesdale division, or are the Clydesdale division qualifications binding on all entrants?

Strictly voluntary.  You are not required to race as a Clyde if you just happen to fulfill the weight requirement.  A lot of folks are too embarrassed to admit their weight, and therefore never register as Clydes. Karl "I’ve been close to 190#"  Edmark

Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

Team Clydesdale will have it’s first open board meeting the weekend of May 3 & 4 after the Indianapolis Mini-Marathon.  Participation in the Mini-Marathon includes 1 lap (in your car) around the Indy 500 track.           Team Clydesdale aims to unite the Big Guys & Gals of the sport and pave the way for a new competition category, not only in Kona’s Ironman, but in all races everywhere.         Many exciting things are coming down the road.  Web site, sponsorship for regional Clydesdale champs, membership benefits and more.         All interested going to Indy are welcome to attend our meeting, held after the race in the Clydesdale Suite at our Big Pres’s home.   E-mail back for phone #’s regarding weekend.         Remember, if the TriRunts get in the way…STEP ON THEM…Eric

Response:

I suppose this has already been covered, but what are the Clydesdale qualifications.  Weight and/or size?  What weight?

Response:

I suppose this has already been covered, but what are the Clydesdale qualifications.  Weight and/or size?  What weight?

Generally: Men = 200 pounds and up Women = 150 pounds and up I’ve seen the numbers vary somewhat at a few races, but these are the standards I’ve usually seen. Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft." *** Ironman Canada 1997 *** http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie        

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a follow-on question regarding Clydesdales.  If a tri race has a Clydesdale division, are Clydesdales allowed to medal or place on the non-Clydesdale division?  Is there a weigh-in?  Does one voluntarily enter the Clydesdale division, or are the Clydesdale division qualifications binding on all entrants? Karl "I’ve been close to 190#"  Edmark I suppose this has already been covered, but what are the Clydesdale qualifications.  Weight and/or size?  What weight?

Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html<head</head<BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"<p<font size=3D2 = color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"I have a follow-on question regarding = Clydesdales. &nbsp;If a tri race has a Clydesdale division, are = Clydesdales allowed to medal or place on the non-Clydesdale division? = &nbsp;Is there a weigh-in? &nbsp;Does one voluntarily enter the = Clydesdale division, or are the Clydesdale division qualifications = binding on all entrants? <br<brKarl &quot;I’ve been close to = color=3D"#000000"&gt; wrote in article &lt;<font = color=3D"#000000"&gt;…<br&gt; <br&gt; I suppose this has already = been covered, but what are the Clydesdale <br&gt; qualifications. = &nbsp;Weight and/or size? &nbsp;What weight?<br&gt; <br&gt; <br&gt; = <br&gt; <br&gt; <br&gt; </p </font</font</font</font</font</body</html

Response:

Question:

Below is a posting of upcoming events for the coming month.  (At least those that we know about and are near to St.Louis) Also included are some training dates for running intervals at Marquette HS,  or sometimes biking/swimming workouts.  Marquette HS is in West Co. at Clarkson and Khers Mill. We call ourselves the St.Louis Triathlon Club,  please feel free to join us for any of the workouts.  If you would like more info, or would like to carpool or caravan to some of these events let us know. or             St. Louis Triathlon Club                         August Schedule   1   thur        Marquette HS track 6:30 pm   4   sun         Swim / Bike  Lake St. Louis  7:30 am                       8   thur        Marquette HS track 6:30 pm 11   sun         Babler Beast Triathlon 15   thur         Marquette HS track 6:30 pm   16   fri             ——- 17   sat           ——- 18   sun          Capital City Duathlon- Jeff. City, Mo 22   thur          Marquette HS track 6:30 pm 25   sun           Swim / Bike Lake St. Louis 7:30 am 29   thur           Marquette HS track 6:30 pm 31   sat            Lake St. Louis Triathlon

Response:

Think that I saw something on the RST awhile ago about a tri club in the

Response: