Sport Triathlon Wiki » Triathlon Bike » GT Vengence triathlon/time-trial bike for sale

GT Vengence triathlon/time-trial bike for sale

Question:

I’m selling this very aero aluminium 56cm/medium bike for a great price. It comes with full dura-ace components and extra tubes and tires. Its mechanic owned and raced for about 2 years now, but its still in really good condition. I also have a pair of Zipp 404 tubular race wheels to sell with the bike or seperately. They have tires on them plus I have two brand new spares as extras. I’m selling the bike alone for $1000 and the wheels alone for $500. If you buy the two together I will sell them for $1400. for more information and for a picture of the bike. This is a great deal and if you do the research you’ll see. Happy training Ryan PS. I’m based out of Boulder, Colorado

Response:

Where are you getting the 56cm measurement? Seems a little odd. Tim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m selling this very aero aluminium 56cm/medium bike for a great price. It comes with full dura-ace components and extra tubes and tires. Its mechanic owned and raced for about 2 years now, but its still in really good condition. I also have a pair of Zipp 404 tubular race wheels to sell with the bike or seperately. They have tires on them plus I have two brand new spares as extras. I’m selling the bike alone for $1000 and the wheels alone for $500. If you buy the two together I will sell them for $1400. for more information and for a picture of the bike. This is a great deal and if you do the research you’ll see. Happy training Ryan PS. I’m based out of Boulder, Colorado

Response:

Are the wheels 650c or 700c?

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Triathlon Bike
Tags: Triathlon Bike

Sport Triathlon Wiki » Ironman Triathlon » How much longer will we have the IMH lottery?

How much longer will we have the IMH lottery?

Question:

Are you upset about the survey (below)? This is an innocuous survey. I have no problem who knows my answers to it. Ray 1. Where do you purchase your sporting apparel? Internet www.gear.com 2. Which brand of energy bars do you buy? Power 3. What sports drink do you prefer? Free 4. Where do you purchase your sports drinks? The Ruxton Beer and Wine Shop 5. Which brand of running shoe do you wear? Reebok 6. Which brand of sunglasses do you own? Oakley 7. Which brand of vitamins do you take? I don’t 8. Which brand of watch do you own? Timex, natch! 9. What is your combined household income level? 10 million dollars 10. Please indicate your occupation category? Secret agent, retired. 11. What kind of vehicle do you own? Isuzu Trooper, F-14 12. To which of the following types of clubs do you belong? Sons of Ukraine 13. How many years have you been competing in triathlons? 17 years

Response:

"Ray Plotecia" writes: Lets talk about something fun like cow tipping.

Okay. Although I’m in the heart of Holstein country here, I’m not sure just how to go about it. Do I just lean on ol’ Bessie? Or do I grab her around the ankles (hocks?) until she goes ka-boom? Is there an award for this? A t-shirt? Please tell me you’re not talking about giving a couple quarters to your least favorite "server" at the corner donut shop. And seeing as this thread is about the IMH lottery, you’re NOT going back to the youknowwho subject! Ruth Kazez

Response:

Teapot or no, the concern is warranted. Let’s just take a look at the questions they ask, shall we? Beyond your contact info, the wanna know your age, your gender, marital status, parental status, level of education, annual income, PC or Mac, where you use the net the most, your connection speed, your internet service provider, your level of interest in; swimming, road biking, mtn biking, running, snow skiing, snowboarding, water skiing, hiking, kayaking, scuba diving, sky diving, golf, fishing, hunting, inline skating, weight training, whether you consider yourself an amateur, have pro aspirations, whether you’ve completed an IM, what IMs you’ve done, and which ones you plan to enter. *whew* Now, if you were at a cocktail party and someone you just met started asking all the same questions, what would your response be? I know my response would be ‘None of your business.’ What’s more, once you press that ‘Submit’ button, you have no more say over who or what gets the info you just submitted, or what purposes its used for. You no longer have control over it. That *really* bothers me. Now, you’ll probably say ‘So what if I get a little junk mail – big deal.’ But the point is that you don’t know that that’s the only use the info will be put to. The information age allows companies and individuals to assimilate information from disparate sources in ways that they never could have before. You say Ironman is not Big Brother; quite possibly true, but who knows who they’ll sell your info too? Sharron came out here to give us useful information and people are trying to bite her.. Real nice!

No – Brian was pointing out that the *website* was not forthcoming with info unless you agreed to give up your info, which wasn’t in the spirit of Sharron’s post. No one’s flamed Sharron that I can see. TriathRon

Response:

Is money an issue, of course it is. It is sometimes very frustrating to see the comments that are represented as facts and are so slanted or erroneous. If you have a question or need information about Ironman call or e-mail one of our offices. We also have a Q & A forum on our website www.ironmanlive.com where you may inquire, we welcome you to contract us directly.

The website is long on promotion and short on information. If you want more information, you have to email them, and there is a disclaimer that if you do so, your email address will be sold to spammers. This hardly reflects the spirit of Sharron’s post. Far more openly and admittedly cutthroat, mercenary corporations respect the privacy of those who contact them – there is no reason why WTC cannot do the same.

Response:

Brian, where did you see this disclaimer? I can’t find it. There is one on the page where you can sign up to be a member of the site, but not on the Q and A form that Sharron is talking about. I can see where her frustration comes from… "Cutthroat" and "mercenary"? Sheesh! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is money an issue, of course it is. It is sometimes very frustrating to see the comments that are represented as facts and are so slanted or erroneous. If you have a question or need information about Ironman call or e-mail one of our offices. We also have a Q & A forum on our website www.ironmanlive.com where you may inquire, we welcome you to contract us directly. The website is long on promotion and short on information. If you want more information, you have to email them, and there is a disclaimer that if you do so, your email address will be sold to spammers. This hardly reflects the spirit of Sharron’s post. Far more openly and admittedly cutthroat, mercenary corporations respect the privacy of those who contact them – there is no reason why WTC cannot do the same.

Response:

Sharon, Thanks for taking the time to give us the complete details. Some very good info. to have. I’ll save this for the next time the topic comes up. Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Everyone, I would like to offer some information that may be helpful in providing a better understanding of WTC and the lottery aspect of the Ironman Triathlon World Championship. There have been many posts regarding the difficulty of coming to Hawaii and that more Ironman races have been established purely in the interest of financial gain. I will start with the lottery. The first point of clarification is that John Collins did not sell the event to WTC, Valerie Silk was the owner and was the person that initiated the lottery process during her time of leadership. It should be noted that Valerie, in her wisdom and passion for the Ironman, was very selective when considering to whom the event would be passed. She wanted an organization that would nurture and respect the event, her choice from the perspective buyers was WTC. The lottery was not a requirement of the acquisition. Rather it was recognized by WTC as an integral part of the Ironman spirit which they held in great esteem. In addition to the domestic lottery, WTC has added an international lottery and a physically challenged lottery. A second point of clarification is that the lottery applications number between 1900 – 2200 annually. I would like everyone to know that at the qualifying races IQ slots roll down within age groups for a period of thirty days after the event. For example if there are six slots for Hawaii in any given age group and 3 of the athletes are previously qualified or decline the slot it rolls to the next eligible athlete in the age group. All race directors of an Ironman qualifying event receive from my office, prior to their event, a list of athletes already qualified for Kona. Further if any of the accepting slot recipients drop within thirty days the next eligible athlete within that age group is notified. If there are no takers in the age group then the slot is offered to the next eligible athlete in the most populated age group of the same gender. I point this out so that everyone understands that the slots do not always go to the top finishers in an age group. All lottery applicants are required to complete a half distance event to validate their start position in Kona. Does it have to be an "Official" Ironman Half Distance Qualifier, no. Athletes are required to submit proof of completion by submission of race results and a confirmation signed by the race director of the event. Now to address the comments regarding the addition of Ironman races across the country. The initial thought and motivation was that there seemed to be an increased interest in Ironman racing. Also recognized was the fact that for some athletes the Hawaii race may not be feasible for a variety of reasons. In response to the interest the obvious vision was to create a broader base of Ironman races within the United States. It was felt that this would address the interest and allow the experience without the burden of international travel. With that in mind WTC set out to bring the Ironman experience to it’s homeland. The initial response has been tremendous and validated that WTC was in touch with athletes of ultra distance racing. Is money an issue, of course it is. The costs and liability of staging an Ironman event are phenomenal in the world of triathlon. In a race of any distance or population the entry fees cover only a small percentage of the costs. That is why sponsors and licensees are critical to the longevity of this sport, without them there is no growth. When WTC markets the Ironman name, it also markets triathlon in general. WTC constantly reinvests revenue into the sport, I believe for the good of all concerned. It is sometimes very frustrating to see the comments that are represented as facts and are so slanted or erroneous. If you have a question or need information about Ironman call or e-mail one of our offices. We also have a Q & A forum on our website www.ironmanlive.com where you may inquire, we welcome you to contract us directly. At WTC we are charged with managing and financing a series of races that meet the Ironman standard, protecting our grass roots and keeping corporate America interested in the sport of Triathlon. As a volunteer for the Ironman Triathlon World Championship since 1983 I understand it’s grass roots and as it’s race director since 1992 I have great appreciation for the integrity of WTC in balancing all of the demands. I apologize if this sounds like a soap box speech, my comments are based on my deep passion and commitment to everything that Ironman represents. Sincerely, Sharron Ackles Race Director Ironman Triathlon World Championship Kailua-Kona, Hawaii Following up the earlier "impossible for the average person" thread: Is anything preventing someone at WTC from deciding it’s more profitable to fill all the spots with people who have gone through multiple WTC qualifiers, and eliminating the lottery altogether? I’d hate to see that happen. As far as I’m concerned, the lottery participants are what gives IMH its unique character, and without them we’d have just another elite race. But in the modern world of sports, money often speaks louder than tradition…. hope I’m wrong. Bob Leckron Indianapolis "There’s a place for drafting…it’s called NASCAR"

Response:

Read again: Brian said *other* companies fell into those categories. Having said that, any company that forces you to allow them to sell your information before they’ll answer a question *is* cutthroat and mercenary in my book. Then again, I’m rather rabid when it comes to spam and internet privacy issues. TriathRon ’see Brian? I know about context . . . ‘ Gilcreast

Response:

Brian, where did you see this disclaimer? I can’t find it. There is one on the page where you can sign up to be a member of the site, but not on the Q and A form that Sharron is talking about.

OK, correction – the information was second hand. It is not if you ask a question, but if you "register" to receive email bulletins. The text below is quoted from the website: By becoming a member, providing us with your e-mail address and becoming eligible for the benefits listed above, you become part of a growing database of visitors to Ironmanlive.com. We want to be very clear that we plan to share these electronic mailing lists with our own growing list of sponsors and licensees who support Ironman and make much of what we do possible. However, the text "you become part of a growing database of visitors to Ironmanlive.com. We want to be very clear that we plan to share these electronic mailing lists" implies that any user of the site whose email address they can obtain will become part of this spammer’s buffet. I can see where her frustration comes from… "Cutthroat" and "mercenary"? Sheesh!

Those adjectives, as Ron pointed out, were to describe corporations that display far more respect for their patrons privacy than WTC allows for in the above disclaimer. Essentially, their "ironmanlive.com" registration is nothing more than a data mining scheme so they can peddle our email addresses to spammers. I didn’t call WTC mercenary, but if they are more willing to sell out their patrons privacy than corporations with clearly less socially responsible aspirations, well, then, maybe the shoe is too close to their size for my comfort. Responsible, considerate online businesses do not engage in, or aid and abet, spam.

Response:

By becoming a member, providing us with your e-mail address and becoming eligible for the benefits listed above, you become part of a growing database of visitors to Ironmanlive.com. We want to be very clear that we plan to share these electronic mailing lists with our own growing list of sponsors and licensees who support Ironman and make much of what we do possible. peddle our email addresses to spammers. I didn’t call WTC mercenary, but if they are more willing to sell out their patrons privacy than corporations with clearly less socially responsible aspirations, well, then, maybe the shoe is too close to their size for my comfort. Responsible, considerate online businesses do not engage in, or aid and abet, spam.

Web usability studies have shown that asking people to register when you don’t need the info to help them is both bad business and bad netiquitte. People will usually walk (click?) away unless they really, really need the information, and then they will put in fake stuff. Unless you believe Donald Duck is a _very_ frequent user of these sites. IMO, requiring registration when they don’t need to know is not only rude, but stupid, especially if they make it clear they will be selling the addresses to businesses so they can spam us. Here’s hoping they clean up their act! Vanessa

Response:

The part that I felt uncomfortable with was that, in order to just retrieve the IMH lottery application, the program will not allow you to proceed until EVERY field of the vast questionnaire is filled in. Merely a name, address, email, whatever was not enough. This was much more than merely an ‘electronic mailing list’ and required much more information than the application itself.

I agree with Andrew, this made me *very* uncomfortable. <:( I didn’t like it. TriBaby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon? Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips: http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html

Response:

You’re going to fill out the application anyway, right. Have a problem with giving them the information there? What? Are you all moving to Montana soon? Ironman is not Big Brother. This is another r.s.t. tempest in a teapot. Please!!! Sharron came out here to give us useful information and people are trying to bite her.. Real nice! Lets talk about something fun like cow tipping. Ray

| | Brian, where did you see this disclaimer? I can’t find it. There is one | on the page | where you can sign up to be a member of the site, but not on the Q and | A form that | Sharron is talking about. | | OK, correction – the information was second hand. It is not if you ask | a question, but if you "register" to receive email bulletins. The text | below is quoted from the website: | | By becoming a member, providing us with your e-mail address and becoming | eligible for the benefits listed above, you become part of a growing | database of visitors to Ironmanlive.com. We want to be very clear that | we plan to share these electronic mailing lists with our own growing | list of sponsors and licensees who support Ironman and make much of what | we do possible. | | However, the text "you become part of a growing database of visitors to | Ironmanlive.com. We want to be very clear that we plan to share these | electronic mailing lists" implies that any user of the site whose email | address they can obtain will become part of this spammer’s buffet. | | I can see where her frustration comes from… "Cutthroat" and | "mercenary"? Sheesh! | | Those adjectives, as Ron pointed out, were to describe corporations that | display far more respect for their patrons privacy than WTC allows for | in the above disclaimer. Essentially, their "ironmanlive.com" | registration is nothing more than a data mining scheme so they can | peddle our email addresses to spammers. I didn’t call WTC mercenary, | but if they are more willing to sell out their patrons privacy than | corporations with clearly less socially responsible aspirations, well, | then, maybe the shoe is too close to their size for my comfort. | Responsible, considerate online businesses do not engage in, or aid and | abet, spam. | | The part that I felt uncomfortable with was that, in order to just | retrieve the IMH lottery application, the program will not allow you to | proceed until EVERY field of the vast questionnaire is filled in. Merely a | name, address, email, whatever was not enough. This was much more than | merely an ‘electronic mailing list’ and required much more information | than the application itself. | | cheers, | Andrew | | — | Andrew Peabody/Karen Fisher | Coconut Grove, FL

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brian, where did you see this disclaimer? I can’t find it. There is one on the page where you can sign up to be a member of the site, but not on the Q and A form that Sharron is talking about. OK, correction – the information was second hand. It is not if you ask a question, but if you "register" to receive email bulletins. The text below is quoted from the website: By becoming a member, providing us with your e-mail address and becoming eligible for the benefits listed above, you become part of a growing database of visitors to Ironmanlive.com. We want to be very clear that we plan to share these electronic mailing lists with our own growing list of sponsors and licensees who support Ironman and make much of what we do possible. However, the text "you become part of a growing database of visitors to Ironmanlive.com. We want to be very clear that we plan to share these electronic mailing lists" implies that any user of the site whose email address they can obtain will become part of this spammer’s buffet. I can see where her frustration comes from… "Cutthroat" and

"mercenary"? Sheesh! Those adjectives, as Ron pointed out, were to describe corporations that display far more respect for their patrons privacy than WTC allows for in the above disclaimer. Essentially, their "ironmanlive.com" registration is nothing more than a data mining scheme so they can peddle our email addresses to spammers. I didn’t call WTC mercenary, but if they are more willing to sell out their patrons privacy than corporations with clearly less socially responsible aspirations, well, then, maybe the shoe is too close to their size for my comfort. Responsible, considerate online businesses do not engage in, or aid and abet, spam.

Response:

When John Collins sold the race to Ironman he did so under the stipulation that the lottery will always remain intact. Chris

Response:

Following up the earlier "impossible for the average person" thread: Is anything preventing someone at WTC from deciding it’s more profitable to fill all the spots with people who have gone through multiple WTC qualifiers, and eliminating the lottery altogether? I’d hate to see that happen. As far as I’m concerned, the lottery participants are what gives IMH its unique character, and without them we’d have just another elite race. But in the modern world of sports, money often speaks louder than tradition…. hope I’m wrong. Bob Leckron Indianapolis "There’s a place for drafting…it’s called NASCAR"

I think the lottery will be around for a long time. The original owners of the race stipulated that there must be a mechanism for the ‘average’ person to compete (if ANY Ironman athlete can be considered ‘average’). The lottery has, in fact, been expanded in the past years to include an International lottery and a Physically Challenged lottery. Not having the lottery would actually lower profits, since the lottery winners pay the same entry fee + lottery fees and ‘passport club’ memberships. Money, in this case, is a non-issue. cheers, Andrew — Andrew Peabody/Karen Fisher Coconut Grove, FL

Response:

Thanks Sharron, Ray

| Hello Everyone, | | I would like to offer some information that may be helpful in providing a | better understanding of WTC and the lottery aspect of the Ironman Triathlon | World Championship. There have been many posts regarding the difficulty | of coming to Hawaii and that more Ironman races have been established purely | in the interest of financial gain. | | I will start with the lottery. The first point of clarification is that | John Collins did not sell the event to WTC, Valerie Silk was the owner and | was the person that initiated the lottery process during her time of | leadership. It should be noted that Valerie, in her wisdom and passion | for the Ironman, was very selective when considering to whom the event would | be passed. She wanted an organization that would nurture and respect | the event, her choice from the perspective buyers was WTC. | | The lottery was not a requirement of the acquisition. Rather it was | recognized by WTC as an integral part of the Ironman spirit which they held | in great esteem. In addition to the domestic lottery, WTC has added an | international lottery and a physically challenged lottery. A second point | of clarification is that the lottery applications number between 1900 – 2200 | annually. | | I would like everyone to know that at the qualifying races IQ slots roll | down within age groups for a period of thirty days after the event. For | example if there are six slots for Hawaii in any given age group and 3 of | the athletes are previously qualified or decline the slot it rolls to the | next eligible athlete in the age group. All race directors of an Ironman | qualifying event receive from my office, prior to their event, a list of | athletes already qualified for Kona. | | Further if any of the accepting slot recipients drop within thirty days the | next eligible athlete within that age group is notified. If there are no | takers in the age group then the slot is offered to the next eligible | athlete in the most populated age group of the same gender. I point this | out so that everyone understands that the slots do not always go to the top | finishers in an age group. | | All lottery applicants are required to complete a half distance event to | validate their start position in Kona. Does it have to be an "Official" | Ironman Half Distance Qualifier, no. Athletes are required to submit | proof of completion by submission of race results and a confirmation signed | by the race director of the event. | | Now to address the comments regarding the addition of Ironman races across | the country. The initial thought and motivation was that there seemed to | be an increased interest in Ironman racing. Also recognized was the fact | that for some athletes the Hawaii race may not be feasible for a variety of | reasons. In response to the interest the obvious vision was to create a | broader base of Ironman races within the United States. It was felt that | this would address the interest and allow the experience without the burden | of international travel. With that in mind WTC set out to bring the | Ironman experience to it’s homeland. The initial response has been | tremendous and validated that WTC was in touch with athletes of ultra | distance racing. | | Is money an issue, of course it is. The costs and liability of staging | an Ironman event are phenomenal in the world of triathlon. In a race of | any distance or population the entry fees cover only a small percentage of | the costs. That is why sponsors and licensees are critical to the | longevity of this sport, without them there is no growth. When WTC | markets the Ironman name, it also markets triathlon in general. WTC | constantly reinvests revenue into the sport, I believe for the good of all | concerned. It is sometimes very frustrating to see the comments that are | represented as facts and are so slanted or erroneous. If you have a | question or need information about Ironman call or e-mail one of our | offices. We also have a Q & A forum on our website www.ironmanlive.com | where you may inquire, we welcome you to contract us directly. | | At WTC we are charged with managing and financing a series of races that | meet the Ironman standard, protecting our grass roots and keeping corporate | America interested in the sport of Triathlon. As a volunteer for the | Ironman Triathlon World Championship since 1983 I understand it’s grass | roots and as it’s race director since 1992 I have great appreciation for | the integrity of WTC in balancing all of the demands. | | I apologize if this sounds like a soap box speech, my comments are based on | my deep passion and commitment to everything that Ironman represents. | | Sincerely, | | Sharron Ackles | Race Director | Ironman Triathlon World Championship | Kailua-Kona, Hawaii | | | | | | Following up the earlier "impossible for the average person" thread: | Is anything preventing someone at WTC from deciding it’s | more | profitable to fill all the spots with people who have gone through | multiple WTC | qualifiers, and eliminating the lottery altogether? | I’d hate to see that happen. As far as I’m concerned, the lottery | participants are what gives IMH its unique character, and without them | we’d | have just another elite race. But in the modern world of sports, money | often | speaks louder than tradition…. hope I’m wrong. | | Bob Leckron | Indianapolis | "There’s a place for drafting…it’s called NASCAR" | |

Response:

I would also add that when you do qualify through the lottery you still need to complete one of the qualifiers so they are still getting the same amount of $$$ out of you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From a slightly different angle, I think the lottery is safe BECAUSE of money. Tri-spouse has little to no interest in TV coverage of the elites. However, just add coverage of one of the "regular schmucks" and tears stream down her face! ; ) I think that sells advertisements ($$$). For every triathlete that watches Ironman coverage, there must be a dozen non-triathletes – - just my guess. I have never noticed, but I bet the ads are not focused on fitness geeks at all. rsquared Following up the earlier "impossible for the average person" thread: Is anything preventing someone at WTC from deciding it’s more profitable to fill all the spots with people who have gone through multiple WTC qualifiers, and eliminating the lottery altogether? I’d hate to see that happen. As far as I’m concerned, the lottery participants are what gives IMH its unique character, and without them we’d have just another elite race. But in the modern world of sports, money often speaks louder than tradition…. hope I’m wrong. Bob Leckron Indianapolis "There’s a place for drafting…it’s called NASCAR" Before you buy.

– Sean Luitjens Before you buy.

Response:

Hello Everyone, I would like to offer some information that may be helpful in providing a better understanding of WTC and the lottery aspect of the Ironman Triathlon World Championship. There have been many posts regarding the difficulty of coming to Hawaii and that more Ironman races have been established purely in the interest of financial gain. I will start with the lottery. The first point of clarification is that John Collins did not sell the event to WTC, Valerie Silk was the owner and was the person that initiated the lottery process during her time of leadership. It should be noted that Valerie, in her wisdom and passion for the Ironman, was very selective when considering to whom the event would be passed. She wanted an organization that would nurture and respect the event, her choice from the perspective buyers was WTC. The lottery was not a requirement of the acquisition. Rather it was recognized by WTC as an integral part of the Ironman spirit which they held in great esteem. In addition to the domestic lottery, WTC has added an international lottery and a physically challenged lottery. A second point of clarification is that the lottery applications number between 1900 – 2200 annually. I would like everyone to know that at the qualifying races IQ slots roll down within age groups for a period of thirty days after the event. For example if there are six slots for Hawaii in any given age group and 3 of the athletes are previously qualified or decline the slot it rolls to the next eligible athlete in the age group. All race directors of an Ironman qualifying event receive from my office, prior to their event, a list of athletes already qualified for Kona. Further if any of the accepting slot recipients drop within thirty days the next eligible athlete within that age group is notified. If there are no takers in the age group then the slot is offered to the next eligible athlete in the most populated age group of the same gender. I point this out so that everyone understands that the slots do not always go to the top finishers in an age group. All lottery applicants are required to complete a half distance event to validate their start position in Kona. Does it have to be an "Official" Ironman Half Distance Qualifier, no. Athletes are required to submit proof of completion by submission of race results and a confirmation signed by the race director of the event. Now to address the comments regarding the addition of Ironman races across the country. The initial thought and motivation was that there seemed to be an increased interest in Ironman racing. Also recognized was the fact that for some athletes the Hawaii race may not be feasible for a variety of reasons. In response to the interest the obvious vision was to create a broader base of Ironman races within the United States. It was felt that this would address the interest and allow the experience without the burden of international travel. With that in mind WTC set out to bring the Ironman experience to it’s homeland. The initial response has been tremendous and validated that WTC was in touch with athletes of ultra distance racing. Is money an issue, of course it is. The costs and liability of staging an Ironman event are phenomenal in the world of triathlon. In a race of any distance or population the entry fees cover only a small percentage of the costs. That is why sponsors and licensees are critical to the longevity of this sport, without them there is no growth. When WTC markets the Ironman name, it also markets triathlon in general. WTC constantly reinvests revenue into the sport, I believe for the good of all concerned. It is sometimes very frustrating to see the comments that are represented as facts and are so slanted or erroneous. If you have a question or need information about Ironman call or e-mail one of our offices. We also have a Q & A forum on our website www.ironmanlive.com where you may inquire, we welcome you to contract us directly. At WTC we are charged with managing and financing a series of races that meet the Ironman standard, protecting our grass roots and keeping corporate America interested in the sport of Triathlon. As a volunteer for the Ironman Triathlon World Championship since 1983 I understand it’s grass roots and as it’s race director since 1992 I have great appreciation for the integrity of WTC in balancing all of the demands. I apologize if this sounds like a soap box speech, my comments are based on my deep passion and commitment to everything that Ironman represents. Sincerely, Sharron Ackles Race Director Ironman Triathlon World Championship Kailua-Kona, Hawaii

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Following up the earlier "impossible for the average person" thread: Is anything preventing someone at WTC from deciding it’s more profitable to fill all the spots with people who have gone through multiple WTC qualifiers, and eliminating the lottery altogether? I’d hate to see that happen. As far as I’m concerned, the lottery participants are what gives IMH its unique character, and without them we’d have just another elite race. But in the modern world of sports, money often speaks louder than tradition…. hope I’m wrong. Bob Leckron Indianapolis "There’s a place for drafting…it’s called NASCAR"

Response:

Well said Sharron. Thanks for posting. Mahalo, Dennis McMinn Team Nike Endorphin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Everyone, I would like to offer some information that may be helpful in providing a better understanding of WTC and the lottery aspect of the Ironman Triathlon World Championship. There have been many posts regarding the difficulty of coming to Hawaii and that more Ironman races have been established purely in the interest of financial gain. I will start with the lottery. The first point of clarification is that John Collins did not sell the event to WTC, Valerie Silk was the owner and was the person that initiated the lottery process during her time of leadership. It should be noted that Valerie, in her wisdom and passion for the Ironman, was very selective when considering to whom the event would be passed. She wanted an organization that would nurture and respect the event, her choice from the perspective buyers was WTC. The lottery was not a requirement of the acquisition. Rather it was recognized by WTC as an integral part of the Ironman spirit which they held in great esteem. In addition to the domestic lottery, WTC has added an international lottery and a physically challenged lottery. A second point of clarification is that the lottery applications number between 1900 – 2200 annually. I would like everyone to know that at the qualifying races IQ slots roll down within age groups for a period of thirty days after the event. For example if there are six slots for Hawaii in any given age group and 3 of the athletes are previously qualified or decline the slot it rolls to the next eligible athlete in the age group. All race directors of an Ironman qualifying event receive from my office, prior to their event, a list of athletes already qualified for Kona. Further if any of the accepting slot recipients drop within thirty days the next eligible athlete within that age group is notified. If there are no takers in the age group then the slot is offered to the next eligible athlete in the most populated age group of the same gender. I point this out so that everyone understands that the slots do not always go to the top finishers in an age group. All lottery applicants are required to complete a half distance event to validate their start position in Kona. Does it have to be an "Official" Ironman Half Distance Qualifier, no. Athletes are required to submit proof of completion by submission of race results and a confirmation signed by the race director of the event. Now to address the comments regarding the addition of Ironman races across the country. The initial thought and motivation was that there seemed to be an increased interest in Ironman racing. Also recognized was the fact that for some athletes the Hawaii race may not be feasible for a variety of reasons. In response to the interest the obvious vision was to create a broader base of Ironman races within the United States. It was felt that this would address the interest and allow the experience without the burden of international travel. With that in mind WTC set out to bring the Ironman experience to it’s homeland. The initial response has been tremendous and validated that WTC was in touch with athletes of ultra distance racing. Is money an issue, of course it is. The costs and liability of staging an Ironman event are phenomenal in the world of triathlon. In a race of any distance or population the entry fees cover only a small percentage of the costs. That is why sponsors and licensees are critical to the longevity of this sport, without them there is no growth. When WTC markets the Ironman name, it also markets triathlon in general. WTC constantly reinvests revenue into the sport, I believe for the good of all concerned. It is sometimes very frustrating to see the comments that are represented as facts and are so slanted or erroneous. If you have a question or need information about Ironman call or e-mail one of our offices. We also have a Q & A forum on our website www.ironmanlive.com where you may inquire, we welcome you to contract us directly. At WTC we are charged with managing and financing a series of races that meet the Ironman standard, protecting our grass roots and keeping corporate America interested in the sport of Triathlon. As a volunteer for the Ironman Triathlon World Championship since 1983 I understand it’s grass roots and as it’s race director since 1992 I have great appreciation for the integrity of WTC in balancing all of the demands. I apologize if this sounds like a soap box speech, my comments are based on my deep passion and commitment to everything that Ironman represents. Sincerely, Sharron Ackles Race Director Ironman Triathlon World Championship Kailua-Kona, Hawaii Following up the earlier "impossible for the average person" thread: Is anything preventing someone at WTC from deciding it’s more profitable to fill all the spots with people who have gone through multiple WTC qualifiers, and eliminating the lottery altogether? I’d hate to see that happen. As far as I’m concerned, the lottery participants are what gives IMH its unique character, and without them we’d have just another elite race. But in the modern world of sports, money often speaks louder than tradition…. hope I’m wrong. Bob Leckron Indianapolis "There’s a place for drafting…it’s called NASCAR"

Before you buy.

Response:

I would also add that when you do qualify through the lottery you still need to complete one of the qualifiers so they are still getting the same amount of $$$ out of you.

Technically, I’m not sure this is true any more. According to the literature included with the Lottery application, it only says that you have to offer proof of having completed a "long distance triathlon", or words to that effect (don’t have the app right in front of me). This stuck out to me this year, but it makes sense, since there are so few non-IM length qualifiers any more. Or did I misread/misinterpret what I saw on the app? Anyone have a copy handy? I don’t want to go reprint a whole ‘nother one off the website! As far as the $$$ question, I have to agree with the fellow who posted that keeping the Lottery *is* good business because of the television broadcast and the appeal of seeing average Joes doing the race versus the superhuman elite types. I strongly believe that the broadcast would lose a LOT of viewers if it focused solely on the pros, or even the really fast age groupers. Couch potatoes can’t really relate to those guys, but they can relate to the lucky fellow who got in and goes 15 hours and it’s a real struggle. It’s dramatic, it’s a story, and it sells. TriBaby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon? Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips: http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html

Response:

With 3,000+ lottery applicants that’s well over $100,000 coming in by February. That’s got to go a long way to cover start-up costs for the October event. Larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – lottery would actually lower profits, since the lottery winners pay the same entry fee + lottery fees and ‘passport club’ memberships. Money, in this case, is a non-issue.

Response:

Maybe Ironman australia can get more qualifiers on this basis as they get the money in full in april from these 100 people!! Stuart – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks for the responses. I hadn’t considered the point about the lottery entry money coming in earlier – that seems to counter my question about financial advantage. Now I can look forward to many more years of holding my breath on April 15….. Bob

Response:

Thanks for the responses. I hadn’t considered the point about the lottery entry money coming in earlier – that seems to counter my question about financial advantage. Now I can look forward to many more years of holding my breath on April 15….. Bob

Response:

From a slightly different angle, I think the lottery is safe BECAUSE of money. Tri-spouse has little to no interest in TV coverage of the elites. However, just add coverage of one of the "regular schmucks" and tears stream down her face! ; ) I think that sells advertisements ($$$). For every triathlete that watches Ironman coverage, there must be a dozen non-triathletes – - just my guess. I have never noticed, but I bet the ads are not focused on fitness geeks at all. rsquared – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Following up the earlier "impossible for the average person" thread: Is anything preventing someone at WTC from deciding it’s more profitable to fill all the spots with people who have gone through multiple WTC qualifiers, and eliminating the lottery altogether? I’d hate to see that happen. As far as I’m concerned, the lottery participants are what gives IMH its unique character, and without them we’d have just another elite race. But in the modern world of sports, money often speaks louder than tradition…. hope I’m wrong. Bob Leckron Indianapolis "There’s a place for drafting…it’s called NASCAR"

Before you buy.

Response:

Bob, as I understand it there must always be some mechanism for the "average person" to get into the race. I beleive this was a condition of the sale of the Ironman rights to WTC. The WTC satisfies this requirement through the lottery. I guess the real question is how many lottery slots does it take to satisfy this requirement? Yakabo (hopin’ to hit the lottery ‘cos it’s the only way I’ll get in) Before you buy.

Response:

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Category: Ironman Triathlon
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Sport Triathlon Wiki » Ironman Triathlon » Tri races in Colorado

Tri races in Colorado

Question:

I live and train in a front range community in colorado. The main events I am planning to compete in this year are the Buffalo Springs Lake 1/2 IronMan in Lubbock, TX. on June, 27th and the Boulder Peak Triathlon in Boulder, CO. August 1. I’m new to colorado and i’m having trouble finding a site that list races. I’m looking for a race close by for the month of June perferably 2-4 weeks before Buffalo Springs just as a tone up race. And a race some time in July between Buffalo Springs and Boulder. If anyone knows of any races along the front range in June/July or a site listing races please let me know. Thanks, Keep Tri-ing

Response:

Hey, try http://www.racingunderground.com/multiindex.html for a list of regional multisport events. The Longmont Tri is June 6th. Wendy — "Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something." — The Princess Bride

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Category: Ironman Triathlon
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Sport Triathlon Wiki » Sprint Triathlon » Beginner needs help.

Beginner needs help.

Question:

I am an avid cyclist and have recently thought about competing in a sprint triathlon. I started running and have been at it for about a week and a few days (about 5 runs). I started with 3 miles because I was in pretty good shape from cycling. My times have come down on every run and I am really enjoying it. My problem is that the day after I run I have extreme pain in the inside lower portion of my knee. I take a day off (cycle) and it feels a little better. I run again and the pain is back with a vengeance. I have done all the research and feel I have selected the right shoe. I don’t want to ease up because I feel I am making good progress. What is the cause of the pain? Am I doing to much to soon? Is there any thing I can do to remedy the problem? Will ice or heat help? Thanks

Response:

My problem is that the day after I run I have extreme pain in the inside lower portion of my knee. I take a day off (cycle) and it feels a little better. I run again and the pain is back with a vengeance. I have done all the research and feel I have selected the right shoe. I don’t want to ease up because I feel I am making good progress. What is the cause of the pain? Am I doing to much to soon? Is there any thing I can do to remedy the problem? Will ice or heat help? Thanks

Ice after the run should help alleviate the pain. You mentioned that your times have come down after every run. One possibility is that you’re running too hard. 3 miles running, even if you’re aerobically fit from the biking, is a lot to start with more or less cold. There are a lot of fussy little muscles and tendons around the knee that may not be taking kindly to the sudden requirement to work for a living. It might be worthwhile to back off the distance (at least) and pace for the running. (And to stay off the running for a few days to let the muscles recover if it is muscles.) This is even more than usual a case of needing to see you to know what it up. Even better, for you to have a doctor see you. There could be something obviously wrong with your stride causing this. Or you may, in spite of your research, wound up with the wrong kind of shoe. Or, … — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and various amateur activities notes and links.

Response:

Hi, I’m from Brazil, I need somebody residence in NYC/MANHATTAM, becouse in nex november I would like running NYCM, but I need talk and help about estada and more tips. Tanks. Eduardo Santos

Response:

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Category: Sprint Triathlon
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Sport Triathlon Wiki » Triathlon Bike » The Chip

The Chip

Question:

I believe I read recently that they are imbedding a new version of the "chip" in all newborn babies feet at the hospital, this in conjunction with hidden sensors in the streets will allow the govt to track the movements of everyone in the country in the next century.

This has been proposed by the army for tracking soldiers and medical id, but hasn’t been adopted it (privacy?, reliability? enemy tracking?). It has also been suggested for child saftey. It is used for tracking cattle and pets. Maybe college student control too

Response:

I meant, "Do they cost _that_ much for the race organizer to rent for a race?" Probably not. I’d guess that the point of an excessive deposit value is that they want the device back and "fair price" deposit would not accomplish that.

I think Ray meant "that much" in the sense that it would be worth while race organizers encouraging people to buy their own chip rather than use one supplied by the organizer My feeling is that for one race, it is not, but if there is a series of races, it would make life easier — you register once at the start of the series, and never have to register again, just show up with your chip strapped on

Response:

I thought that this seemed like a pretty good idea, and I am normally paranoid about all of the databases with information about me. I figure that with all the other supposedly important information that other people collect about me, a race database won’t hurt. It would actually be pretty convenient, as long as I have access to the data. Harold – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The web site mentions trying to sell Chips to runners, so they’ll have their own Chip, rather than having to borrow them for a race. Is this as foolish as it seems? Why would a race take on the additional hassle of determining whether a runner has their own Chip or needs to borrow one, let alone the hassle of determining the Chip ID for runners with their own Chip? Do they cost _that_ much to rent for a race?

Response:

Actually, the government uses the collected race data to make sure that when they send the Black Maria to get you, it’s staffed with thugs that can run fast enough to catch you. -Ray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought that this seemed like a pretty good idea, and I am normally paranoid about all of the databases with information about me. I figure that with all the other supposedly important information that other people collect about me, a race database won’t hurt. It would actually be pretty convenient, as long as I have access to the data.

Response:

I meant, "Do they cost _that_ much for the race organizer to rent for a race?" — Ray Charbonneau

If I recall correctly, Champion charges something like a dollar per runner. In a large race, that adds up. I would assume Champion factors in a bit for "walk-aways." Mike "TriBop" Tennent http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/ WebRunner Running My Model Railroad ‘98 Ironman Canada IronVirgins Site

Response:

I meant, "Do they cost _that_ much for the race organizer to rent for a race?"

Probably not. I’d guess that the point of an excessive deposit value is that they want the device back and "fair price" deposit would not accomplish that.

Response:

If they’ve done it correctly, all you’d have to do at registration is "swipe" your personal Chip across a reader and your personal ID and information would be entered into the race’s database. That, and the convenience of not having to stop and remove it, get your deposit back, etc, may be worth it to some. I haven’t been at any races that use it, nor are any around here using it, so I don’t have any reason to buy one myself. I understand they will be using them at Ironman Canada this year, so that’ll be my first experience with them. They’ll be able to remove it easily while I’m lying in the medical tent…<g Mike "TriBop" Tennent http://www.gate.net/~wbrunner/ WebRunner Running My Model Railroad ‘98 Ironman Canada IronVirgins Site

Response:

The web site mentions trying to sell Chips to runners, so they’ll have their own Chip, rather than having to borrow them for a race. Is this as foolish as it seems? Why would a race take on the additional hassle of determining whether a runner has their own Chip or needs to borrow one, let alone the hassle of determining the Chip ID for runners with their own Chip? Do they cost _that_ much to rent for a race? — Ray Charbonneau — These opinions are not those of The MITRE Corporation. Rec.running t-shirts: http://www.mit.edu/people/doreenc/rec-run/rec-run.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For a description of chip technology, check out http://www.runwashington.com/champion/index.html

Response:

their own Chip? Do they cost _that_ much to rent for a race?

When I ran the Madrid marathon, the Chips were free. You put a 2000 peseta (about $13) deposit down when you got your number and Chip and it was all refunded at the end. Later. James "Hold me. Thrill me. Kiss me. Kill me."

Response:

I meant, "Do they cost _that_ much for the race organizer to rent for a race?" — Ray Charbonneau — These opinions are not those of The MITRE Corporation. Rec.running t-shirts: http://www.mit.edu/people/doreenc/rec-run/rec-run.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – their own Chip? Do they cost _that_ much to rent for a race? When I ran the Madrid marathon, the Chips were free. You put a 2000 peseta (about $13) deposit down when you got your number and Chip and it was all refunded at the end.

Response:

For a description of chip technology, check out http://www.runwashington.com/champion/index.html Mark Kline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it must transmitted and receiving (listening) at the same time since literally dozens of runners can cross it at the same second (at the starting line). The electronic equiment connected to the sensors seems to emit a chirp for each chip detected. Needless to say at the start line the chirping is quite fast and furious. Given the luck I’ve had with proximity detector access cards for getting into work, it wouldn’t surprise me that the thing is fairly unreliable. Assuming a similar technology, I find it not unusual to need to hold my card in front of the reader for several seconds before it responds. If you only get one foot strike on the carpet surface, I’d be impressed with anything over about a 95% hit rate. Yea my work badge also requires a few seconds to register but this chip technology really works – the only case I’ve heard of it failing is when the runner didnt attach the chip to their shoe but carried it or put it in their pocket instead – too far a distance from the sensor mat. The Chicago Triathlon (Mrs. T’s) has used the Champion Chip for at least the last two years. With the quickness of the results and the splits for the swim, bike, run, and transition I would say it has a much greater accuracy rate than 95%. — Thanks Henry

Response:

I think it must transmitted and receiving (listening) at the same time – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – since literally dozens of runners can cross it at the same second (at the starting line). The electronic equiment connected to the sensors seems to emit a chirp for each chip detected. Needless to say at the start line the chirping is quite fast and furious. Given the luck I’ve had with proximity detector access cards for getting into work, it wouldn’t surprise me that the thing is fairly unreliable. Assuming a similar technology, I find it not unusual to need to hold my card in front of the reader for several seconds before it responds. If you only get one foot strike on the carpet surface, I’d be impressed with anything over about a 95% hit rate. Yea my work badge also requires a few seconds to register but this chip technology really works – the only case I’ve heard of it failing is when the runner didnt attach the chip to their shoe but carried it or put it in their pocket instead – too far a distance from the sensor mat.

The Chicago Triathlon (Mrs. T’s) has used the Champion Chip for at least the last two years. With the quickness of the results and the splits for the swim, bike, run, and transition I would say it has a much greater accuracy rate than 95%. — Thanks Henry

Response:

A friend of mine who just got back from Boston told me a little about "the chip" but couldn’t tell me how it works, only what it does. Can anyone give me a general explanation about its inner workings or tell me where I can find some information about this little marvel? She talked about a chirping sound as she ran over a rubber pad. Was this made by the chip or by a sensor in the pad?

Response:

One brand (the only one?) is the Champion Chip. The chip records when you pass electronic markers and notes your time and that you passed. From a tech standpoint, I do not know how it works unless it emits a signal that is unique to it (such as a binary string) that the sensor interprets (This was purely a guess and has a better than average shot of being wrong). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine who just got back from Boston told me a little about "the chip" but couldn’t tell me how it works, only what it does. Can anyone give me a general explanation about its inner workings or tell me where I can find some information about this little marvel? She talked about a chirping sound as she ran over a rubber pad. Was this made by the chip or by a sensor in the pad?

Response:

Here on Long Island, the "Champion Chip" Timing System has been introduced by David Katz, President of Finish Line Road Race Technicians in Port Washington, New York. Up to now, it’s in the testing stage. I’ve worn it in 2 races, where they hand it out with the race numbers. In the first race, they asked that you lace it to your sneaker, but for some reason, they began to supply a Velcro Strap so you can attach it to your ankle. I can tell you the following: The chip is activated/read/deactivated by the rubber pads, which are obviously placed at the start and finish; pads located at splits can give those times also. The "beep" is made by a sensor in the pad. Results for races timed by Finish Line are available in minutes, and are posted on a website at www.flrrt.com within an hour of the finish. Not a bad system. I will only worry Jim.

Response:

The velcro strap sounds like a good idea, after the last Marine Corp (where the chip was used) you had to stop right after the finish line and return the chip (by untying your laces). Needless to say after 26 miles some people (myself included) would prefer to rest rather than mess with it (they did have volunteers there to help you with it).

We used the chip Sunday in Pittsburgh. After the Marathon, we went to a bike rack and put our foot up on the lower rail. Volunteers untied our laces, removed the chip, and tied our shoes for us again. It was *very* much appreciated. GK frodojrr at interaccess dot com

Response:

Hi! There is a brief explanation of the working principle of the chip at http://www.bnet.co.at/ptiming/g1_1.htm Greetings Pascal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A friend of mine who just got back from Boston told me a little about "the chip" but couldn’t tell me how it works, only what it does. Can anyone give me a general explanation about its inner workings or tell me where I can find some information about this little marvel? She talked about a chirping sound as she ran over a rubber pad. Was this made by the chip or by a sensor in the pad?

Response:

: A friend of mine who just got back from Boston told me a little about : "the chip" but couldn’t tell me how it works, only what it does. Can : anyone give me a general explanation about its inner workings or tell me : where I can find some information about this little marvel? She talked : about a chirping sound as she ran over a rubber pad. Was this made by : the chip or by a sensor in the pad? I have no clue what I’m talking about, just educated guesses… From a web site picture, it appears that the "chip" comes encased in large, high tech looking package. I suspect that embedded in all the loops and extensions is a wire. Though I am not strong in electromagnetic and antenna theory, I suspect that the carpets emit a frequency which is picked up by the antenna. This is used to charge up a capacitor (a battery in rough terms) that is then used to power the chip. The chip then uses the same wire to transmit a signal back the carpet: actually the wires embedded in the carpets, of course. Again guessing, I would think that the emitted frequency may be pulsed, so that the carpet emits a burst in transmission mode which charges up the chip, then goes into receive mode to "listen" for a response. Given the luck I’ve had with proximity detector access cards for getting into work, it wouldn’t surprise me that the thing is fairly unreliable. Assuming a similar technology, I find it not unusual to need to hold my card in front of the reader for several seconds before it responds. If you only get one foot strike on the carpet surface, I’d be impressed with anything over about a 95% hit rate. Check out http://www.cnet.bo.at/ptiming/g1.htm -pfrench

Response:

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Category: Triathlon Bike
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Sport Triathlon Wiki » Triathlete » Weight Gain Record

Weight Gain Record

Question:

Are there sex and original weight categories?

How about age-group… I am +9 lbs, 35-39 John Welch IMC ‘97 - What have I done?

Response:

Well lets hear those numbers for winter weight gain so far. Can anybody top 14??? I’m always up for a challenge, but this one may be unsurmountable this year. How many days till St. Anthonys??? 323 till Great Floridian!!

Response:

: Well lets hear those numbers for winter weight gain so far. Can anybody : top 14??? I’m always up for a challenge, but this one may be : unsurmountable this year. How many days till St. Anthonys??? Grrr…and I expected to be the new winner peaking at a high of 13….darnit. Funny thing is, I’m doing the highest milage I ever have right now (for the last 8 weeks!) and it’s not coming off. This is pretty odd…. — Jason Mayfield, Arlington VA Persist, Persevere, Deny, Pursue, Pain, Survive, Ignore, Endure, Strive, Laugh, Cry, Live, Prevail, Scream, Sweat, Bleed, Sustain, Learn, Ascend, Give, Get, GO! 261 Days Until Ironman Canada ‘97

Response:

Isn’t that just the WORST, Jason? I’ve been experiencing the same thing over the past year, and I just don’t get it. And the next person who tells me "Oh, it’s all muscle" is gonna get clocked! Grrr! Tri-Baby _ – o ’ – __o – </_ ` ‘ – < – __/ /o_ – (()) (()) - / "REAL Triathletes don’t draft!" http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~brooksie

Response:

Now here is a record I would like to go for and one I can really sink my teeth into!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Well lets hear those numbers for winter weight gain so far. Can anybody : top 14??? I’m always up for a challenge, but this one may be : unsurmountable this year. How many days till St. Anthonys??? Grrr…and I expected to be the new winner peaking at a high of 13….darnit. Funny thing is, I’m doing the highest milage I ever have right now (for the last 8 weeks!) and it’s not coming off. This is pretty odd…. Isn’t that just the WORST, Jason? I’ve been experiencing the same thing over the past year, and I just don’t get it. And the next person who tells me "Oh, it’s all muscle" is gonna get clocked!

"Oh, it’s all muscle." Now, go on and clock me. Go ‘head, gwan. Maybe you can swing by after IMC next summer and give it a go. I figger I’ll be better able to duck and weave after you’ve done the race. Grrr!

Oh, my. Perhaps I’ve been too hasty. No fair swinging by before the race. Darryl Parry | "As Canadian as possible, | - E. Heather Scott http://www-crewes.geo.ucalgary.ca/~parry/caperr.html

Response:

Grrr.. I can’t even win in this competition. No matter how hard or how little I train, or how much or little I eat, I’ve been between 64 and 65 kg now for over ten years. Hell, I can pig out through an entire christmas period at my parents and not put on weight (but there’s no room in the fridge dear, so just finish that pie off, and have another beer.) Clydesdales – at least you get some lasting physical sign of the good times you’ve had. Me? All that food may as well have not happened. And to really twist the knife my girlfriend insists my legs aren’t ‘meaty’ enough. Hee hee. Where’s that chocolate vending machine? Joel — Royal Observatory Edinburgh Web : http://www.roe.ac.uk/jswww/ Edinburgh Phone: +44 (0)131 668 8100 EH9 3HJ Fax : +44 (0)131 668 1130 UK

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Well lets hear those numbers for winter weight gain so far. Can anybody top 14??? I’m always up for a challenge, but this one may be unsurmountable this year. How many days till St. Anthonys??? 323 till Great Floridian!! Are there sex and original weight categories? I think I can win the female non-Clydesdale category hands down. Upon returning from my trip to Atlanta this summer I promptly put on 9 pounds and this was DURING the season! However, I did manage to take a few off and I keep yo-yoing (+/- 4 lbs) – hovering DANGEROUSLY close to Athena/Female Clydesdale. I hate turning down a challenge – I am sure that if I can put on 9 pounds while training about 12-14 hours a week (and 2 years ago I gained 5 pounds while training for a marathon!) it should be no problem whatsoever to gain 14 during the off-season! Hell I probably put on 3 lbs in the past 24 hours from making (eating) cookies! YUM. -hug

Are these the kind of cookies where you eat more dough than you bake???

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Well lets hear those numbers for winter weight gain so far. Can anybody top 14??? I’m always up for a challenge, but this one may be unsurmountable this year. How many days till St. Anthonys??? Upon returning from my trip to Atlanta this summer I promptly put on 9 pounds and this was DURING the season! [snip] I hate turning down a challenge – I am sure that if I can put on 9 pounds while training about 12-14 hours a week (and 2 years ago I gained 5 pounds while training for a marathon!) it should be no problem whatsoever to gain 14 during the off-season! Hell I probably put on 3 lbs in the past 24 hours from making (eating) cookies! YUM.

You guys can hang it up! I’ve put on 20 lbs. since I shifted from my own training to coaching youth soccer in August. While I haven’t been doing 12-14 hours a week during that time, neither have I been totally idle. OK, almost, but not totally. Chris ps. I’m not proud of this, but… Hey! A challenge is a challenge. Christopher N. Baucom Systems Analyst Triathlete Dad Soccer Coach – NCYSA "E" License (& sometimes Player) Rock ‘n Roll "Vocalist" (I hesitate to say "singer") Not neccesarily in that order…

Response:

writes: Well lets hear those numbers for winter weight gain so far. Can anybody top 14??? I’m always up for a challenge, but this one may be unsurmountable this year. How many days till St. Anthonys??? 323 till Great Floridian!!

Are there sex and original weight categories? I think I can win the female non-Clydesdale category hands down. Upon returning from my trip to Atlanta this summer I promptly put on 9 pounds and this was DURING the season! However, I did manage to take a few off and I keep yo-yoing (+/- 4 lbs) – hovering DANGEROUSLY close to Athena/Female Clydesdale. I hate turning down a challenge – I am sure that if I can put on 9 pounds while training about 12-14 hours a week (and 2 years ago I gained 5 pounds while training for a marathon!) it should be no problem whatsoever to gain 14 during the off-season! Hell I probably put on 3 lbs in the past 24 hours from making (eating) cookies! YUM. -hug

Response:

Tied you. Mid August 175….Mid October 189!! Started back and am now running about 20 miles, riding 40 (inside) and my swim workout consisits of taking a long shower. STILL 189. Lets commeserate with cookies and beer. –Eric "More to Love" Weiss

Response:

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk…Jason…your going to get up to my weight range soon! I wish they had a clydesdale division in the IM.. Now, I’m up to 220 from my slender weight of 212 at IMC…but I’ve got bronchitis for the 4th week and it’s limiting my efforts to prepare for my February Marathon. (I just ran 12.5 yesterday and felt like &^%$#.) You know, I had a 1.5 week illness in September with stomach pains and intestinal problems. I’ve never been this sick this long before in my life. I think IMC sucked the life out of me. Still got alot of time to prepare, no mental collapse yet…still think I can get up to my planned levels of 1 mile swim, 50 mile bike and 1/2 marathon by Jan 1. It’s hard to get my heart in this training, knowing I could possibly lose a lung if I get to involved. JMersinger

Response:

OOOH… I’ve got a REAL shot at this title (Weight Gain Record). Can we use aggregate numbers over three and a half years? 1992 – - 188 lbs. 1993 (195 lbs. and a borderline "Clyde") — I was basking in arrogance at never having been injured, no matter how recklessly I trained. Net result: five months off with a case of industrial strength ITB. 1994 (205 lbs. full-fledged "Clyde") — Tried to recover the lost half-year by training for a "low – key marathon". Net Result: Plantar Fasciitis – - both feet; feet were screwed up for over a year. 1995 (230 lbs.) Parenthood – - enough said. Don’t get me wrong – - I had so much fun being a dad that I lost sight of my fitness. I still can’t put in the same amount of time training, but life is fuller. 1996 (210 lbs. lost 20 lbs. to date) Back on the wagon. Major objective is to be down to 195 for Gulf Coast Tri and ramble accross in about 5:45.00. How the mighty have fallen… I now know it can happen to anyone. At 185 lbs., I was a fairly fast Clyde (2:15.00 Olympic, one IMH, one GFT finish). I hope to be out of the running for this title in 1997!

Response:

It’s a necessary thing…for me it’s one of those things that stokes the early season training desire. BTW, I’m at 10#–with the Christmas Holidays right around the corner! 8 months, 16 days to IMC ‘97. Augie Calabrese GO EMORY EAGLES CROSS COUNTRY <<<

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OOOH… I’ve got a REAL shot at this title (Weight Gain Record). Can we use aggregate numbers over three and a half years? 1992 – - 188 lbs. 1993 (195 lbs. and a borderline "Clyde") — I was basking in arrogance at never having been injured, no matter how recklessly I trained. Net result: five months off with a case of industrial strength ITB. 1994 (205 lbs. full-fledged "Clyde") — Tried to recover the lost half-year by training for a "low – key marathon". Net Result: Plantar Fasciitis – - both feet; feet were screwed up for over a year. 1995 (230 lbs.) Parenthood – - enough said. Don’t get me wrong – - I had so much fun being a dad that I lost sight of my fitness. I still can’t put in the same amount of time training, but life is fuller. 1996 (210 lbs. lost 20 lbs. to date) Back on the wagon. Major objective is to be down to 195 for Gulf Coast Tri and ramble accross in about 5:45.00. How the mighty have fallen… I now know it can happen to anyone. At 185 lbs., I was a fairly fast Clyde (2:15.00 Olympic, one IMH, one GFT finish). I hope to be out of the running for this title in 1997!

This all makes me look like a sissy. 8 pounds is all i can claim. does it count if i feel like it’s 30?!?

Response:

AARRRGGGHHHH….I hate this subject because it strikes too close to home. Like Jason and others, I do alot of workouts, but this time of year is full of hiddden calaries and I can feel it every day. We get used to being able to eat alot during the outdoor/good weather days and now….yikes! An observation that I’m sure I am not alone in…it gets MUCH harder trying to take the weight off after you get into those late 30’s-early 40’s. I try to do a LONG run and a LONG (90 minutes straight freestyle 5000+ meters last week) swim once a week to try to ward it off, but it’s tough. And now they’ve built a new Dunkin Donuts shop across the street from the pool! The horror, the horror! Best, Mark (Hey…Happy Holidays to everybody!)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – AARRRGGGHHHH….I hate this subject because it strikes too close to home. Like Jason and others, I do alot of workouts, but this time of year is full of hiddden calaries and I can feel it every day. We get used to being able to eat alot during the outdoor/good weather days and now….yikes! An observation that I’m sure I am not alone in…it gets MUCH harder trying to take the weight off after you get into those late 30’s-early 40’s. I try to do a LONG run and a LONG (90 minutes straight freestyle 5000+ meters last week) swim once a week to try to ward it off, but it’s tough. And now they’ve built a new Dunkin Donuts shop across the street from the pool! The horror, the horror! Best, Mark (Hey…Happy Holidays to everybody!)

happy holidays and cheers Sam

Response:

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Category: Triathlete
Tags: Triathlete

Sport Triathlon Wiki » Triathlon Training » First Tri Report

First Tri Report

Question:

Huge congratulations. I’m more than just a bit by your tenacity.

Response:

<Good stuff about a first triathlon, rife with trauma and, on the whole, quite inspirational and uplifting. Huge congratulations. I’m more than just a bit impressed by your tenacity. The image of your wife and kids congratulating you at the end will stick with me. Congratulations to them, too. I know that they share in your triumph.

Response:

I missed this rept. Tom could you please repost? Or just send me an email. Thanks! Brian Sullivan

Response:

After several delays and rewrites, here is my race report submitted for your consideration (or flaming ;-) ). Although I like to think of Peterborough as my "first" Triathlon, it Background About 3 years ago, I decided to try to improve my fitness level after about 15 years of virtual inertia. This past winter I decided that a good way to bring some focus into my training was to set a specific goal such that I could train towards. In my case, I chose participation in the President’s Choice Triathlon Series, first in a "Super Sprint" in Guelph in June, and then a "Sprint" in Peterborough in August. The First Attempt The Guelph Tri was a disaster, but I learned a whole lot from it. While I had trained very hard in advance for this event, I blew it. I did everything wrong that I could do wrong before racing. o caught a cold o worked till 2 AM the day before the race o did not eat enough before the triathlon o did not practice open water swimming in my wet suit o had one hellacious 2 hour car ride with 2 fighting children to the race, really insuring maximum relaxation o started the swim leg right in the centre of the pack, and swam way too fast to keep up and avoid getting killed As a result, after the swim leg (which by the way was less than 1/3 of my regular swim training distance) I was completely spent, felt dizzy and nauseated, and could not continue. After this humbling experience, I realize that I would have to change strategy in order to complete my goal. I spent a great deal of time over the next few weeks thinking about what had gone wrong, reading a great deal about triathlons (including many "first tri" reports on the Internet), and planning how I was going to do things different the next time. In short, I revised my entire training plan to focus 100% on the key tri elements, and did as much "real condition" training as possible. I also began to take pre-race preparation, mental, nutritional and physical a lot more seriously. To further bolster my confidence, I did a "dry run" the week before the race at a friend’s cottage. The good news is that I was able to easily complete all 3 elements. The bad news is that while bicycling I hit a patch of gravel and fell from my bike, cutting my knees and elbows and bruising my ribs. While this did boost my confidence, it also did worry me as my ribs were too sore to allow me to swim the week before the race. I only hoped I would recover in time for the race. The Race As the race was scheduled to start at 8 AM on a Sunday, I decided to travel to Peterborough the night before to avoid too early a start. In addition, I was also able to pick up my race kit the night before, and to check out the race location and routes. The biking and running courses both turned out to be flat for the most part, with a couple of hills just to keep things interesting. The swimming course went across a small lake called "Little Lake" directly down river from the lift locks. I also had a chance to try my swimming out for the first time in over a week, and while it hurt a little I was able to swim pretty good. I was feeling confident and relaxed and headed out for a big feed of pasta. The Peterborough race is quite popular and attracted over 500 participants, so that the night before no matter where I went I met other triathletes. Everyone was really friendly and supporting, and it was really great to speak with them and hear about their experiences and tips. I got up very early in the morning on race day and enjoyed a huge breakfast of macaroni and cheese. I drove to the race site to got setup. As the time approached I put on my swimming gear and made my way to the beach. In what seemed like a final cruel joke, just before the race began the race organizers announced that the lake had been declared unsafe for swimming the week before by the local Dept…. of Health! The race was going to proceed as planned but we would be "swimming at our own risk" (no shit). To top it off, then a nurse from the Health Dept. got on the speaker and told us all what symptoms to watch out for during the race which would indicate critical exposure. No one seemed too concerned, and the race began! The Swim My strategy here was to stay clear of the pack, start slow to get used to it, then build in speed as the race went on. It worked; I was able to finish!! :-) Swimming is my weakest event (as I found out). I was able to maintain a front crawl the entire race. However most of the swimmers in my wave blasted out ahead of me, and to my surprise I was passed throughout the race by bathing caps of all colours! As I approached the shore I was convinced that I was certainly the last in my wave to finish, and probably one of the last swimmers. To my surprise though, I saw there were 2 people from my wave swimming behind me! Cool! I felt pretty good after the swim, and I knew then that I would finish as biking and running were much stronger for me. Little did I know what was waiting for me ahead….. The Bike I had been spending a great deal of time training over rolling country roads for this event, and had been able to maintain a good cadence and speed of about 30 km/hr+ comfortably over a 20k ride. As we rode off on our bikes, I found that all the training had paid off. My hill climbing was good enough to pass most of the riders in front of me, and once in front my flat speed was able to keep me ahead. Everything looked textbook until about the 8k mark when I hit a patch of gravel and blew out my rear tire!!! ;-( At first I could not even believe it had happened. I pulled over to the side to check and there it was, and I didn’t have a spare tube or tools to change it. I was in shock, and disbelief that I had come this far only to be stopped by this. After a great deal of cussing, I figured that it was over, turned my bike around and started walking my way back to the park. I don’t know how, but then suddenly it occurred to me to continue. I thought, "Hey, you’ve come too far to be stopped by this. Just take it easy on the bike so that you don’t fall. The worst that will happen is that you’ll ruin a wheel. But, you’ll finish". So that is exactly what I did. It wasn’t pretty, and quite scary, but I was riding again! Fortunately when I got to the turnaround point at the 10k point, a kind volunteer happened to have a spare tube and tool with him, and between the two of us we were able to repair my bike and get back to business. For the rest of the biking I was able to regain my speed and finish strong, although I figured that the blowout cost me about 15 minutes in total time. After my experience I counted myself lucky to be finishing at all! The Run They say after the swimming and biking, the run is simply a case of "grin and bear it". This pretty well sums up my experience as well. I was able to run throughout the the race, while many others walked some of it. In addition I was able to pass quite a few fellow athletes along the way. Although the run seemed long, I knew that I was truly going to finish at that point, and allowed myself to pick up the pace and finish strong. As I approached the finish line I could see my wife and kids cheering me on, and I flew across the finish line, with a not too shabby first time of 1:44. The Wrap-Up After the race, my wife and kids presented me a trophy commemorating my personal victory. We took a ton of pictures, and then headed out for a huge lunch. It was a great experience, one that I will cherish. It’s easy to second guess decisions that I had made, and to debate how much faster I could have gone over the various sections of the race. Looking back over the past few years of preparation, considering where I had come from and all of the barriers that I had to overcome to get as far as I did, I realize that I met my goal, and am very happy with my performance. I am also really looking forward to the beginning of next season, and improving my overall ranking. One final note: last weekend on a local TV station they ran a piece on Triathlons, and although I don’t remember it, apparently I was featured coming out of the bike transition and starting my run. I didn’t see the program, but several of my friends told me about it. Does it get any better? I think not! ;-) Tom

Response:

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Category: Triathlon Training
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Sport Triathlon Wiki » Triathlete » So Cal Triathletes

So Cal Triathletes

Question:

I think there’s some new organization in Santa Monica called Triathlete Zombies. I understand they even have a retail store in Santa Monica. Sorry, that’s all I know. Peter

Response:

I think there’s some new organization in Santa Monica called Triathlete Zombies. I understand they even have a retail store in Santa Monica. Sorry, that’s all I know.

I didn’t see the original post but, yes, there is a Triathlete Zombies outfit in Santa Monica, that is both a retail store and a mail order service. It’s run by two brothers, Robert & Patrick Gan, who are terrific guys and very dedicated to the sport. They have an e-mail address, too: If you get in touch, mention that Cherie Gruenfeld recommended them. You’ll enjoy dealing with them.

Response:

Does anyone know of any associations of triathletes in the So Cal area for joint training or club activities??? Particularly in the Malibu, Studio City and Santa Monica areas??? Signed, Desperately in need of Training Partners

Response:

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Category: Triathlete
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Sport Triathlon Wiki » Triathlete » Steve Irish, was that you?

Steve Irish, was that you?

Question:

Am I mistaken or have I seen Steve Irish’s name on several posts? I watched him on TV a few minutes ago. I’m just curious. Ruth Kazez

Response:

Am I mistaken or have I seen Steve Irish’s name on several posts? I

watched him on TV a few minutes ago. I’m just curious. Ruth Kazez<<< No mistake, that was me. You can watch me again tonight. (For those who missed, I was on Jeopardy Wed. night.) Thanks for asking. I was wondering if anyone would notice. Steve Irish

Response:

No mistake, that was me. You can watch me again tonight. (For those who missed, I was on Jeopardy Wed. night.) Thanks for asking. I was wondering if anyone would notice. Steve Irish

At first I thought this might not be a "real" triathlete. Then, when asked about leg shaving you said it was cool and I knew you were real. Ruth Kazez

Response:

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Sport Triathlon Wiki » Triathlon Training » Phil & Wendy

Phil & Wendy

Question:

<<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

Now I may be wrong but I thought that a qualification wether it be a degree, diploma or doctorate was merely a way of determining wether a person knew what they were talking about? ( they had done the study). So who cares wether it’s doctor, Phsysician, tinker, taylor? DOES HE KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT? I for one have enough confidence in my judgement (and for that matter not enough confidence in the variances of world qualifications standards) to make that judgement myself. Who cares what letters follow!!!! GREG.J.ABBISS :: Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand ATTMAIL: internet!iconz.co.nz!abbiss

Response:

<snipped legal treatise… I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC.

At the risk of appearing to defend both Dr. Mark J. and the medical profession, I’d like to enter this fray once again. After all, it was my post that questioned whether Dr. Maffetone could in fact call himself a "physician". The fact of the matter is that he legally CANNOT call himself a "physician" in Canada or in Texas (1 state down… 49 to go <smile). But it as Dr. Jenkins suggests, it goes deeper than that. There are laws put in place to prevent _anyone_ from just calling themselves whatever they want and holding out that representation to the general public. Surely, I could not just call myself a chiropractor and get away with it; more importantly, what kind of confidence could individuals who subscribe to that school of treatment expect from me if I could do that? That’s why the law is there — for the protection of the general public including triathletes. Now as for the rest of your argument… <Sound of flamethrower firing up in the distance approaching…. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title?

I did not see any thing other than mild hyperbole to suggest that Mark Jenkins has it "in" for Dr. Maffetone (although I must admit that I have no idea what his ideas in this specific instance are, BTW). I interpreted the statement to be a clarification of fact that was missing from Dr. Maffetone’s counterpoint (since proven wrong for all of Canada and Texas, at least) to my earlier post. Is it that you refuse to accept that maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research?

Come again? Are you suggesting that ALL "academically funded research" is somehow corrupt? By that logic, you would then be saying that any academically funded research for chiropractic is also corrupt. Surely that is not the case. But I’m sure you can document the fact that all peer review and research is fatally flawed. Maybe your sentiment here is better saved for aerowheel tests. The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise.

Here I have no argument with you or your logic. If in fact, individuals are happy with the services they receive from trained, qualified and certified healthcare providers, then that individual alone should be the ultimate arbitrator. But that is off the mark: remember that the question was what someone could call themselves in their representations to triathletes. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck?

See above. Last I noticed almost every top professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to alternative care after poor service with little positive result from "traditional" medicine.

I too (although _definitely_ not a pro <chuckle) subscribe to so-called "alternate" therapies such as massage for a cervical disk problem. Heck, the evidence may be anectodal, but it works for me! But again, can you prove (perhaps via "academically funded or peer research" <G) that "almost all pros" (what is that sample size, anyway?) have arrived at the choice to use alternate therapies as a result of "poor service with little positive result from traditional medicine"? How many hours of nutrition are required in med school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than 2% of the curriculum at most schools.

That’s _exactly_ why there is a RD (Registered Dietician) designation. Check out recent discussions in sci.med. If some MD, DO, DC or whatever were to hold themselves out to be an RD without appropriate qualification, then perhaps they should be challenged. I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with.

Zag, I don’t think that was the reason for Dr. J’s or my post. Oh yes, as for your last comment above,… that’s the same reason I support Dr. Jenkins! Cordially yours on the scorched earth of r.s.t, Tom

Response:

Dan, JJ, & Dr. Brug raise good points. I agree with much of what they say, and add these further thoughts: Titles do matter. A title implies that one possesses an advanced degree of skill, knowledge, and accomplishment in a specialized field. It says to the world, "I am an expert, I am ethical - trust me." Yet, because we live in an imperfect world, there will always be those who take advantage of the public trust. Thus, in order to ensure our own safety, we must challenge credentials. If a person’s actual experience and education are worthy of a title, public scrutiny will bear this out. If a person’s actual experience and education are not worthy of a title, then that lack of experience and/or education should be revealed. It is practically impossible for the public to know the reputation and credentials of every doctor. The only way the unknowing public can separate the good from the bad is through honest, rigorous, scrutiny. Such scrutiny is particularly important in the field of medicine because so much is at stake, namely the health, safety and welfare of the patients. Good doctors realize this and welcome an open dialogue. As an attorney, I hold myself out as having a specialized skill and knowledge. However, I also realize that there are both good and bad attorneys in the world, and that it is not always easy for the general public to discern the difference. We all have degrees. We all have advanced educations. We all claim to be good at what we do. However, some of us are clearly better and more ethical than others. The only way for the public to discern among us to challenge us. Ask us questions. Be critical. Don’t settle. Any attorney worth his or her salt welcomes the opportunity to prove and defend his or her own credentials. It is fair and necessary to challenge Philip Maffetone’s credentials. He holds himself out as a medical expert and he should expect scrutiny as to those credentials. However, I do not believe that it is fair to criticize Maffetone for the publicity which he has been getting; the exposure is good for his business and, if I were him, I’d be happy to have it. If there is any blame to be had, it lies with those who are giving him the publicity; they decide which mug gets the press. By the way, Dan, if Triathlete offered you a cover story or two, would you balk at the exposure?:) As to Jenky, I agree with Dan: Jenky’s comments are always constructive, reasoned, and respectful. His participation is an asset to the group. Cory H.

Response:

don’t refer to myself as an engineer, I don’t any license to do what I do, I don’t have an MBA, I don’t have a law degree, I sometimes pay my taxes late, I sometimes pay my vendors late, I have hair on my back, I occasionally smell bad, and I cuss alot when I’m mad. Now, if you still choose to buy my wetsuit you’ve been forewarned. I would feel much, much more comfortable with Phil’s comments if there were similar qualifications attached.

Sorry to ruin a truely excellent post (which I totally agree with) but after hearing the above I think I may try to get my money back from my wetsuit, and not buy a QR bike…. :-) John (you did see the smiley, didn’t you?) K.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? Is it that you refuse to accept that maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research? The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to alternative care after poor service with little positive result from "traditional" medicine. How many hours of nutrition are required in med school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than 2% of the curriculum at most schools. I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with. ZAG

ZAG, First of all, I apologize to anyone who has misinterpreted my postings as an attack on Dr. Maffetone. They are not. I am not responsible for some of the rude things that others have said about him. I have not, in any way, criticized him or his profession. Essentially, there is no controversy or competition here — except what some people seem to want to create. I have addressed him and everyone else on this newsgroup in a professional manner. There are over 100 types of professionals deserving the term doctor, and I address all of them as "doctor" ; Veterinarians, chiropractors, osteopaths, Ph.D.s, M.D.s, optometrists, podiatrists, naturopaths, dentists, and others. Asking someone what kind of doctor they are is not the same thing as an attack on their credibility. Each week, a few patients will ask me what kind of doctor I am, where I trained, or other questions that might be perceived as "questioning my authority". If I got my hackles up every time this happened, I guess I would spend a lot of time with erect fur. It is simply an honest question, worthy of an honest answer — and not an emotional response. There really isn’t an issue about "traditional" vs. "non-traditional" medicine. I think too many people want to see the world as black and white, but it really is a collection of many shades of gray. I recognize that there are many health professionals from many disciplines who provide excellent care, and I am not so arrogant as to think that only M.D.s can provide quality health care. It may even surprise you to learn that I have referred patients to "non-traditional" practitioners when it was clear that it was appropriate for me to do so. If you have encountered pompous, arrogant physicians, I am sorry, but please do not stereotype me or my profession. I recognize that there are some complete jerks in my field, but that does not mean that all M.D.s are uncaring, selfish, pompous bastards. Prejudicial bias colors ones perceptions, and I guess some people will see what they want to see. Please don’t judge me based on the initials that follow my name. Finally, asking another professional detailed scientific questions and engaging in discussion is not a personal attack. I have certainly learned a lot from this interaction and I hope that others have as well. In our blind rush to get faster — heads down, joining the crowd — is it wrong for one or two people to stop and question where we are going? In my educational process, I have not been taught *what* to think, but rather that I *should* think. I realize that I am nothing– a "nobody". I am a small voice, without all the accolades that are attached to some members of the inner sanctum of our sport, but I can still ask questions. If I don’t understand, please forgive me for asking, reading, thinking, and occasionally pointing out things that need clarification. I hope this clears the air a bit, but please don’t misinterpret the above. It was delivered in a relaxed, polite, conversational tone. Mark A. Jenkins, M.D.

Response:

I care. And I’m glad Jenky cares. There is one big difference between Phil and Jenky. Phil is like me. He has something to sell to the people in this newsgroup. And therefore everyone here should be very wary of what I say, and what Phil says, because we are both hocking our wares. For that reason neither of us should be surprised if we get extra scrutiny, especially if it appears that what we are telling is not the whole story.

Damn right. That’s the heart of the matter. Also just because someone/anyone is an author, owns a modem, has friends on the inside, wins a race, gets a lot of press or wins an award from the bagman for the boys downtown network doesn’t mean the person is a hero, a star or a leader. So far from it in some cases. There’s a lot of marketeers, kingmakers, agents and wheeler dealers out there and they try to influence the media which influences the public which gives the clients bigger resumes and then bigger contracts. At times this network works with great success. Sometimes its at work right here. What you see, sometimes, isn’t really what is. JJ

Response:

individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research?

Scientific research is generally an accumulative field of knowledge with contributions made by many investigators over a long period of time. Each scientist’s work is dependent on other researchers, both contemporary and historically. When an individual goes off on his/her own initiative, without benefit of peer criticism at seminars, colloqia, etc., and without being required to substantiate the significance of his/her intended research, the "scientist" is very likely to go off the shallow end and come up with some pretty funny voodoo. A good deal of the advice in this newsgroup falls into that category, regardless of which soi-disant letters of achievement attach to the name. Much of this advice is very effective. Few people would doubt the efficacy of faith healing. Faith healing does not benefit by peer review and academic funding. In that sense, you are perfectly right. Ruth Kazez

Response:

<<What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone <<who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer <<to as medical school uses the title? I have not seen Jenky refer to Phil in only but (generally) the most restrained way, considering the *serious* departure that Phil takes from Western Medicine. While I, because of my egregious disrespect for anything and everything, richly deserve your sarcasm, it appears to me that Jenky has bent over backwards to restrain himself, and therefore does not deserve it (since he has wielded very little of it himself). <<Is it that you refuse to accept that <<maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing <<athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather <<than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically <<funded research? Although I doubt if Jenky sees himself in this position, Jenky for me is the medical information "gatekeeper" of this newsgroup. You may fling your barbs at the foibles of "Western Medicine", but where would you be without it? At the end of the day, I’ll take Jenky’s rigorous and scholarly approach over Phil’s speculations. Phil may turn out to be right in much or most of what he says (or maybe not). In any case, I greatly value Jenky as the opposing voice, just to put Phil’s ideas in a proper perspective. <<The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they <<receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their <<faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. I haven’t seen Jenky question either their right to seek his advice, or the overall quality of Phil’s advice. I have only seen Jenky question Phil on those matters where there is a clear need for a question to be asked. <<What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? I care. And I’m glad Jenky cares. There is one big difference between Phil and Jenky. Phil is like me. He has something to sell to the people in this newsgroup. And therefore everyone here should be very wary of what I say, and what Phil says, because we are both hocking our wares. For that reason neither of us should be surprised if we get extra scrutiny, especially if it appears that what we are telling is not the whole story. <<I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of <<late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to <<our sport or the athletes he works with. Phil "sounds" like he speaks with great authority and finality. He is perceived as an "august presence" here in this newsgroup, because he isn’t just another joe like me and you, he sidles up to the term "physician", and we don’t question the judgement of physicians. We swallow what they say lock, stock, and barrel, and suspend judgement. Occasionally he posts a highly questionable piece of information which– because Phil *never* qualifies his statements with "it is my opinion" or "realize that what I say is questioned by others in the medical profession"– could be interpreted to be a belief that is not in any question. I enjoy having Phil in this newsgroup, and value his opinions. However I highly, highly value Jenky as a check from Western Medicine’s point of view. Phil could relieve himself of most of the grief he gets here if he qualified his beliefs more often. When I tell people in this newsgroup how to mount their cleats, I say up front that my formula is cult-like, and is not adhered to by 80% of the bike shop mechanics. My beliefs are therefore set against the backdrop of what the "industry" believes. I don’t refer to myself as an engineer, I don’t any license to do what I do, I don’t have an MBA, I don’t have a law degree, I sometimes pay my taxes late, I sometimes pay my vendors late, I have hair on my back, I occasionally smell bad, and I cuss alot when I’m mad. Now, if you still choose to buy my wetsuit you’ve been forewarned. I would feel much, much more comfortable with Phil’s comments if there were similar qualifications attached. QRman

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<<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

Dr. M, a clarification is in order for my earlier statement. I did not have enough information to make the above statement regarding "all states". However, you may be interested in the following information. In Canada, only persons licenced by their respective provincial boards (i.e. College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta) may use the terminlogy "physician" and/or "surgeon". To become licenced by the board, the following requirements are needed; you must have an "approved MD degree from an accredited college [their words, not mine, BTW]" or a PhD in an approved disciple (i.e. pyschology/psychiatry) and you must pass a two part LLMC C exam, administered by the Medical Council of Canada. In my home province this is goverend by the Medical Professions Act, a legislated statute. Further, practices such as the prescription of pharmaceuticals is restricted to "MD’s" and is not available to many allied health professions such as chiropractors and phyical therapists. As for a specialization in "sports medicine", no MD may describe themselves as a specialist without having the appropriate approval and certificate from the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, which, interestingly does _not_ offer or recognize a specialization in sports medicine. Physicians, however, can advertise themselves as having a "special interest" [once again, the college's words] in sports injuries and medicine. Lest you think this is some kind of non-MD bashing, it was not intended to be that. I merely wanted to point out that there are usually (well founded, IMO) restrictions as to who can claim to be what. I know many of the allied professions have high standards and that there are bound to be good and not-so-good in each and that healthcare providers other than "licenced MDs" are an important part of the triathlon (medical) scene. Of course, none of this _really_ matters to triathlon, does it? <wink Tom Ruta

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athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research?

Peer review, although not perfect, is a time-tested manner of separating garbage from valuable information. As a matter of fact, peer review is precisely what goes on in this newsgroup. Do you have some better means in mind for evaluating the validity of theories than the one which has been used for literally all of the scientific advances made? faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top

Speaking as someone who has spent the past 3.5 years working pretty damn hard towards obtaining a Ph.D., I care a great deal about someone misrepresenting him or herself. For a more verbose rant on this subject, see my other recent post in this thread. I think Dr. Jenkin’s comment on this matter was completely reasonable. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps. OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? …

You guys gotta be sh**in’ me! FACT: Maffetone states that physicians and D.C.’s are synoymous and his diploma says he’s a physician. FACT: Previous Canadian poster states that D.C’s in Canada can’t use the term physicians. FACT: Jenky wrote in that in Texas (and maybe other states) D.C.’s can’t use the term physician to describe themselves. FACT: Here’s another case of someone making a general statement without checking the FACTS. The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise.

I’m sure this is the case, but this really doesn’t have anything to do with D.C. being synoymous with physicians. Frankly, I’m a more than a little tired of reading about Maffetone (good and bad). Tim G. previously posted that he’s offended by Dr. Phil representing himself as a biochemist. I’m sure I’m going to miss a few, but recently I’ve seen Phil in the Wind Tunnel; Phil & T. DeBoom Saga (funny but isn’t Phil Tim’s agent?); Phil as a Physician; Phil as future TriFed President (Katy you probably thought I forgot that one); BetaBars, PRBars and Phil. D**n, maybe someone should call NBC, and we could start a mini-series! From a lot of the sigs, I know there are a lot of RSTers who have dedicated a signifcant portion of their lives to education. One thing I’ve found is the more your learn (& research), the more you find out you don’t know (exactly). Also, the more you study, the more clearly defined your boundaries of expertise become. My personal problem is that it appears that the triathlon media doesn’t realize Dr. Phil’s boundaries. I’m not contesting the fact that Dr. Phil is very good in his area of training; however, it definitely does not make him an expert at many other aspects of triathlon. Heck, you can call me "Dr", but I have trouble putting on a band-aid straight, so please don’t call me "physician", "nutritionist", "aerospace engineer", "sports agent", "NGB prez"… Pat W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D. _- -_ Los Alamos National Lab -__ __- / cis: 72410,3372 /

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As I’ve said before, what I object to is the use of the title "Dr." as a means of implying expertise not in chiropractic, which Maffetone is trained in, but in biochemistry and nutrition, which are the subjects upon which most of his reputation is based. [Flame ON] Further, no one has bothered (or perhaps no one cares to admit) to explain whether the amount of advanced training which a chiropractor receives is comparable to that required for possession of an M.D. or Ph.D.. I will, of course, go find out on my own at some point, but the deafening silence on this matter suggests to me that my suspicions are correct, and that training for chiropractic is not of the same depth as that of the usual "Dr."’s. [Flame OFF] pretty mild, really… For the record, I once again state that I do not think that lack of the title "Dr." invalidates one’s opinions on areas outside or inside one’s area of claimed expertise. But to my ear, the weight given to the opinion of a professionally trained person is greater than that given to someone who just happens to have an opinion. Hell, as long as I’m ranting (I can feel the caffeine rush starting NOW!!!!), why is Maffetone’s opinion given so much weight anyway? Triathlete’s "Coach of the Year" (great source of an endorsement, eh?) was pictured with his three stars at Kona this year. Well, think about it, Allen crapped out at the Berlin Marathon and didn’t reach his goal at IM Germany, Pigg was well down in the results at Kona, and Tim DeBoom didn’t even start. Not what I would term a stellar record for the charges of someone thought by many to be the ultimate coach of ultra-endurance athletes. Obviously, I’m slanting things here, but still, I don’t think the cult of personality which has risen around Maffetone is a good thing. Chances are that he personally is a decent, well intentioned person, but since he seems very selective about which posts he responds to, I don’t feel that I’ve gotten to see that side of him. The hype surrounding him, which must be at least condoned by Maffetone himself, seems unjustified in many respects. If his presence in the sport has done you some good, that’s great, but I am at a loss to understand why so many seem willing to overlook the oddities in this whole saga. I guess a good question would also be why this whole thing irks me so much… Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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First of all, I’ll put my bias on the table: I have a visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called Dr. or referred to as a physician. And I have problems with Maffetone presenting himself as an expert on biochemistry, which I think he often does. In the past, I’ve felt that the title "Dr." when used in front of Maffetone has constituted an attempt to imply a level of training that simply isn’t there. This is not to say that Maffetone’s ideas are not worthy of respect; clearly there is a lot of empirical evidence in the form of the athletes who follow his advice that he is on to something important for endurance athletes. That said, I would be willing to lose my visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called "Dr." if someone would convince me that the training necessary to become a chiropractor is comparable to that required to get an M.D. or Ph.D.. I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that the levels of training necessary for the two disciplines was not comparable. Anyone care to shatter my ignorance? Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First of all, I’ll put my bias on the table: I have a visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called Dr. or referred to as a physician. And I have problems with Maffetone presenting himself as an expert on biochemistry, which I think he often does. In the past, I’ve felt that the title "Dr." when used in front of Maffetone has constituted an attempt to imply a level of training that simply isn’t there. This is not to say that Maffetone’s ideas are not worthy of respect; clearly there is a lot of empirical evidence in the form of the athletes who follow his advice that he is on to something important for endurance athletes. That said, I would be willing to lose my visceral discomfort with chiropractors being called "Dr." if someone would convince me that the training necessary to become a chiropractor is comparable to that required to get an M.D. or Ph.D.. I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that the levels of training necessary for the two disciplines was not comparable. Anyone care to shatter my ignorance?

Timothy: I don’t know that I disagree with you entirely but I do have another point of view on the concept of MD’s deserving the "title" and DC’s not. While there are DC’s who certainly overstep their bounds, the AMA type medical profession is no less guilty and in fact, the highly trained MD’s get to bury their mistakes while a DC may have to only account for the occassional stomach ache or sore neck. MD’s should have more training. The scope of their ability to invade the human body far exceeds the scope of the DC. Please do not read that I am in favor of the DC who claims to be able to cure cancer, only that I have been an alternate medicine patient for twenty five years and I am generally more comfortable on the chiropractic table that in the office of an MD. "You know the difference between a doctor and God? God doesn’t want to be a doctor." With apologies to Mark Jenkins. ZAG

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writes: <<< In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. That’s news to me, and a lot of other licensed professionals. Maybe you’re right and we’re all wrong. (Not that it _really_ matters.) Also, my diploma says "physican." Philip Maffetone

Philip, I hate to burst your bubble here, but the designation of "physician" can only be applied to M.D s and D.O.s — both have equivalent training. There are laws to this effect which govern identification via signs, pamphlets, stationery, letterheads, signature, or any other means of professional identification. The following is an excerpt from the Healing Art Identification Act — Texas Rev. Civ. Stat Ann. art. 4590e. " If licensed by the Texas Board of Chiropractic Examiners, the following identification is proper: 1. Chiropractor 2. Doctor, D.C. 3. Doctor of Chiropractic 4. D.C. " I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps. Mark A. Jenkins, M.D..

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there are DC’s who certainly overstep their bounds, the AMA type medical profession is no less guilty and in fact, the highly trained MD’s get to bury their mistakes while a DC may have to only account for the occassional stomach ache or sore neck. MD’s should have more training. The scope of their ability to invade the human body far exceeds the scope of the DC. Please do not read that I am in favor of the DC who claims to be able to cure cancer, only that I have been an alternate medicine patient for twenty five years and I am generally more comfortable on the chiropractic table that in the office of an MD.

Hey, don’t get me wrong, I have a lot less faith now than I used to in the ability of MD’s to treat people as opposed to human bodies. And I agree that there are substantial problems with the medical profession and the AMA in particular. However, that doesn’t go to the point of my original post. The problems with "real" doctors is fodder for a different thread. At the moment I’m very curious whether this one will go, and I’ll pass on taking up the gauntlet concerning MD’s. BTW, I don’t know how many MD’s are in this group, but the only one I can recall is Dr. Jenkins. If one judged the profession by his posts, I, for one, would have a much higher opinion of MD’s. Timothy — Timothy Gotsick

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Philip, I hate to burst your bubble here, but the designation of "physician" can only be applied to M.D s and D.O.s — both have equivalent training. There are laws to this effect which govern identification via signs, pamphlets, stationery, letterheads, signature, or any other means of professional identification. The following is an excerpt from the Healing Art Identification Act — Texas Rev. Civ. Stat Ann. art. 4590e. " If licensed by the Texas Board of Chiropractic Examiners, the following identification is proper: 1. Chiropractor 2. Doctor, D.C. 3. Doctor of Chiropractic 4. D.C. " I don’t have all 50 states’ statutes in front of me, but I believe that this law is standard. This, of course, is not really relevant to triathlons, except that all of us are on mailing lists and receive a considerable amount of advertising. These laws are in place to protect consumers and to assist them in making choices. I hope this helps.

OK, Mark, here is where I flick my BIC. What is it with you and Phil? Does it personally offend you that someone who didn’t go through the archaic and arcane process we so lovingly refer to as medical school uses the title? Is it that you refuse to accept that maybe someone has come upon a workable system of developing and enhancing athletic performance through individual inititiative and research rather than through that most corrupt process of peer review and acedemically funded research? The people with whom Phil works are happy with the quality of care they receive, their performances are improving and they continue to put their faith and trust in his knowledge and expertise. What do you care if he calls himself a Dr. or Donald Duck? Last I noticed almost every top professional triathlete that I have met makes some form of alternate therapy a part of their program. As an aside, almost all of them came to alternative care after poor service with little positive result from "traditional" medicine. How many hours of nutrition are required in med school these days. Last time I checked (a few years ago), it was less than 2% of the curriculum at most schools. I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with. ZAG

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Touche! By the way doc, what is cranial manipulation??? I’m just very curious as to what exactly this is. In fact, when I mentioned it to a colleague at work, he said "I don’t know either, but it sounds like something you need." Marty Miller (aka The Noodle) Proprietor of "The Triathlete’s Web" http://iac.net/~miller/triathlon-home.html

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Zagarino writes: I know that may sound a little rough but Phil is taking a lot of abuse of late and I have yet to see or hear him do anything that was not helpful to our sport or the athletes he works with.

Hear, hear (or is it, here, here)! Let’s quit dumping on Phil. I have two comments to add in support of chiropractors who identify themselves as doctors. 1.) When I lived in Boulder, my favorite chiropractor was Dr. Otsie Stowell. I never questioned his training; he was a titled professional in his field, and I got results from what he did for me. There are dozens and dozens of chiropractors in any community who list themselves as "Dr. Whoever," and I’ve never heard their credentials questioned to the extent everyone has grilled Dr. Phil Maffetone. 2.) Thousands of exercise physiologists who have Ph.D.’s are also titled Dr. Thousands of others with Ph.D.’s in other academic fields are called Dr. Come on, everyone, the use of Dr. indicates a high degree of training in one’s field. Let’s give Dr. Maffetone the respect he deserves. Perhaps I didn’t state any of the above very eloquently, but I’ve just been reading this thread a while and simmering, because I know what Phil can do and has done. Katherine Williams

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As Dave Letterman would say, "what’s the deal here?"

Can you say "sham"… I thought you could! Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"].

Can your say "practising medicine without a licence?" I _knew_ you could! In most jurisdictions (all states, 10 provinces, assorted and sundry territories, protectorates and the like) it is illegal to pass one’s self off as a physician unless one holds an approved MD degree. Chiropractors, though, to the best of my knowledge can call themselves Doctor everywhere. Plus there are enough subtlties in advertising that allow such things to occur. For example, in Canada you can’t call yourself a physical therapist/physiotherapist unless you are registered with the provincial college; but you can be a joe/josephine off the street and call yourself a "thereapist" with interest in physical sports. Caveat emptor. Tom

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Dr. M…. Touche…..very well said. Dana

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This is just a reminder for "buyers-to-beware"… Facts D.C. equals physician (according to this post) M.D. equals physician D.C. NOT EQUALS M.D. Gee, here’s another case where logic (and the transitive property) doesn’t apply. I don’t really have a too strong of an opinion, but for those of you who might be uncomfortable with _certain types_ of physicians, just make sure their credentials are suitable to you. Here’ my problem… M.D. NOT EQUALS sports physician D.C. NOT EQUALS sports physician M.D. + special training EQUALS sports physician D.C. + special training EQUALS (?) sports physician D.C. sports physcian NOT EQUALS M.D. sports physician For the last case, remember the two individuals have different backgrounds, philosophies and skills. IMHO, its like comparing apples and oranges. So, if you want apples, don’t go looking in Florida’s orange groves… W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D. _- -_ Los Alamos National Lab -__ __- / cis: 72410,3372 /

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As Dave Letterman would say, "what’s the deal here?" Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"]. Then, a little later, I get the May Inside Triathlon, and see ads for [insert trumpet sounds here] a new energy bar, the BetaBar, being promoted by the same Dr. Philip Maffetone. "What’s the deal here?" Then I turn to the "Wingnut Wendy" interview. Here’s what Wendy Ingraham, key PR*Bar endorser, has to say in response to the question "How are you going to be training differently this season?": "That’s hopefully what Phil [Maffetone], a few other people and I can figure out. Apparently, it is all going to start with rebalancing my diet. Last year, I don’t think I felt as good physically as I did in ‘93. Even though my results in ‘94 were better, I just didn’t feel as good. I think somewhere along the line I got off track with my diet." Excuse me, Wendy, but wasn’t ‘94 the year that you were all over the pages of our magazines, telling us how great the PR*Bar diet was? "What *is* the deal here?" Sign me, Curious in Cupertino

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<<<Several times in the last few months Phil Maffetone has said he has no relation with PR*Bar (that’s not a direct quote, obviously). Let me say it for the record, I am not with PR Nutrition (as of the first of the year). I am now with BetaBar, a new energy bar with a different formula. <<<Two weeks ago I got the "PR*Bar Newsletter" in the mail. Lead story? "We are proud to have Dr. Philip Maffetone on board as our Medical Director. Dr. Maffetone is a sports physician…" [Incidentally, I wasn't aware that it was proper to call a chiropractor a "physician"]. You’ll have to ask PR Nutrition why they’re still sending out literature that’s over a year old. [Yes, chiropractors are considered, and properly referred to as, physicians.] <<<Then, a little later, I get the May Inside Triathlon, and see ads for [insert trumpet sounds here] a new energy bar, the BetaBar, being promoted by the same Dr. Philip Maffetone. <<<Then I turn to the "Wingnut Wendy" interview. Here’s what Wendy Ingraham, key PR*Bar endorser, has to say in response to the question "How are you going to be training differently this season?": "That’s hopefully what Phil [Maffetone], a few other people and I can figure out. Apparently, it is all going to start with rebalancing my diet. I have consulted for many companies, and also – as a separate practice – treat and train athletes. The two don’t always match, nor do they need to. In many sports, I may even train two athletes who are fierce competitors of each other. It’s never been a problem for me or the athlete (i.e. Pigg & Allen). Philip Maffetone

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